From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 11:45:36 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re:  Charles R. Clark - Agate slabs
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:21:42 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.132142.0>
Precedence: bulk

David - I  sent some links Friday, but I haven't seen them on the list,
these looked pretty cool.

www.rockhoundsesq.com
www.roughgems.com
www.eloxite.com


Tami


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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:13:53 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:04:12 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.7412.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.131145.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they shall
and shant do?<
>

I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this list.
I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos, whats
and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
"nazi" as I can imagine.

I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their time,
computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for all
stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort it
must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the stained
glass community completely awesome.

I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the free
and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.

Thank you Glenna!

Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm


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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:30:20 1999
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From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: New soldering iron
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:01:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.10126.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mary,

I have to agree with Mike Savad the Ungar is the one.  I've been using them
for over 15 years and I don't think they can be beat.  My arm doesn't get
nearly as fatigued as it did with other irons and the heat is easy to
control.  I like an iron that heats fast and I also usually have to irons
going when I'm on a large project.

My 2 cents.
Molly
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
To: Intrastar <glass@intrastar.net>; Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, July 31, 1999 8:19 PM
Subject: New soldering iron


>Hi all... (posted to two lists, so please forgive repeat)
>I am in the market for a new soldering iron, and want to purchase the best
>one available. I have a rheostat already, so just need the iron.
>Thanks in advance!
>Mary
>
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:44:53 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:24:47 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.72447.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.81139.0>>
Precedence: bulk

There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
was:  Jadite or
Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
in
the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.

Best regards,
Cheryl



Spitzer, Charlie wrote:

> when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> mottling.
>
> it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
>
> regards,
> charlie
> phx, az
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > To: glass@bungi.com
> > Subject: New project
> >
> >
> > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > dolphin and a
> > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > Since I'm
> > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> >
> > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:20:25 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: The E-Tour - tools
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:19:52 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.71952.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.122334.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Was that before or after he said he'd come over and "knock you up?"
(that's come around and knock on the door for those folks not from the UK)

Regards,
Cheryl
("Colonial" by birth, British by close association)



Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/29/99 4:54:23 AM, s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
> writes:
>
> >Just to help the USA members about the tools:
> >
> >Sellotape   equals   Scotch tape
>
> Yeah, and "rubbers" are erasers............. I still laugh when I think of
> the time I was at the library doing homework with a guy I was dating (who was
> from the British Crown Colony of Hong Kong; this was during our freshman year
> in college) and he asked me if I had a rubber he could borrow........ I
> nearly died!
>
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:38:41 1999
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X-Path: ipa.net!gecko
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Tim Atwood" <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:41:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.11416.0>
Precedence: bulk

Fuck you Tim.

What kind of an asshole goes and sends something like this to my personal
address... knowing that I have already left the list because of assholes
like you.

You've been an asshole in everysingle post you ever made on the bungi list,
and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.

fuck you Tim.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>; Glenna
Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:06 PM
Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


>> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
>> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
>> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they shall
>and shant do?<
>>
>
>I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
>the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this list.
>I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos, whats
>and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
>unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
>never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
>with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
>"nazi" as I can imagine.
>
>I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their time,
>computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
>the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for all
>stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort it
>must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
>problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
>the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the stained
>glass community completely awesome.
>
>I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the free
>and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.
>
>Thank you Glenna!
>
>Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm
>
>

----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:53:16 1999
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From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93"
Subject: JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:40:35 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.74035.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi fellow bungians,

One of our members mentioned visiting Jade Cove in California, and it
set me to thinking about my own trip there as a child...and that started

me wanting to know more about Jade.

Here's a site which not ony explains what Jade is, but also shows
samples of
the various types and origins of Jade in the world.  It offers Jade
stones for sale,
but that's not the point of my passing on this URL...this is just for
education.  The
idea of using natural stones as sculptural elements in a stained glass
piece is
appealing...

http://galleries.com/minerals/gemstone/jade/jade.htm

Best regards,
Cheryl Ryder

--------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="jade.htm"
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	/jade/jade.htm"

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY><CENTER><B>

<a href="/default.htm" target=_top>Minerals</a>
|
<A href="/minerals/by-name.htm" target=_top>By_Name</A>
|
<a href="/minerals/by_class.htm" target=_top>By_Class</a>
|
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|
<a href="/scripts/search.exe" target=_top>Search</a>
|
<a href="/minerals/gemstone/class.htm" target=_top>Gemstones</a>
 
</B></CENTER>
<H2>
<A HREF="jade.jpg"><IMG SRC="jade.gif" ALIGN=MIDDLE HSPACE=2></A>
JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite</H2>

<H3><B>VARIETY INFORMATION</B>:</H3>
<UL>
<LI><B>VARIETY OF: </b>both jadeite and nephrite
<LI><B>USES:</b> Gemstone and ornamental stone.
<LI><B>COLOR:</B> shades of emerald green as well as white, gray, yellow, orange and violet.
<LI><B>INDEX OF REFRACTION:</B> is approximately 1.66 (jadeite) and 1.62 (nephrite) 
<LI><B>HARDNESS:</B> 6.5 - 7
<LI><B>CLEAVAGE:</B> does not apply due to massive nature of jade
<LI><B>CRYSTAL SYSTEM:</B> monoclinic
<LI><B><A HREF="/scripts/item.exe?LIST+Minerals+Gemstones+Jade" >SPECIMENS</A></B>
</UL>
Jade is a name that was applied to ornamental stones that were being brought to Europe from China and Central America.
It wasn't until 1863 that it was realized that Jade was being applied to two different minerals.
The two minerals are both exquisite for the purposes that jade is put to task and are hard to distinguish from each other.
So what to do?
Leave it alone and call them both Jade!
<p>
<b><a href="/minerals/silicate/jadeite/jadeite.htm">Jadeite</a></b> is almost never found in individual crystals and is composed of microscopic interlocking crystals that produce a very tough material.
Nephrite is actually not a mineral, but a variety of the mineral 
<b><a href="/minerals/silicate/actinoli/actinoli.htm">actinolite</a></b>.
The nephrite variety is composed of fibrous crystals inter-twinned in a tough compact mass.
Other actinolite varieties are quite different from nephrite.
<p>
The toughness of jade is remarkable.
It has a strength greater than steel and was put to work by many early civilizations for axes, knives and weapons.
It was later that jade became a symbolic stone used in ornaments and other religious artifacts during the eons.
<p>
Today jade is still valued for its beauty.
Its many colors are appreciated, but its the emerald green color that jadeite produces so well, that is highly sought after by artwork collectors.
This emerald green jade called "Imperial Jade" is colored by chromium.
Other colors are influenced by iron (green and brown) and manganese is thought to produce the violet colors.
Nephrite is usually only green and creamy white, while jadeite can have the full range of jade's colors. 
<HR><TAIL><CENTER><B> 
<a href="/default.htm" target=_top>Minerals</a>
|
<A href="/minerals/by-name.htm" target=_top>By_Name</A>
|
<a href="/minerals/by_class.htm" target=_top>By_Class</a>
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|
<a href="/scripts/search.exe" target=_top>Search</a>
|
<a href="/minerals/gemstone/class.htm" target=_top>Gemstones</a>
 <br> 
</B><a href="/copyrite.htm">Copyright &copy; 1995,1996 by Amethyst Galleries, Inc.</a>
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 16:10:48 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!rrkerr
From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: meryder@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 15:40:50 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.84050.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.72447.0>>
Precedence: bulk

There are also jade deposits on the coast in British Columbia ... I've
seen then referred to as the Jade Cliffs of GC.  This info is available
everywhere.

Apparently you can get relatively large blocks of jade from these
deposits ... where relatively large = 2' to 3' square or even larger ...
just hearsay from the lapidary community of some time back ... I've
never seen one with my own eyes.

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
> there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
> break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
> walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
> family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
> was:  Jadite or
> Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
> in
> the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.
> 
> Best regards,
> Cheryl
> 
> Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
> 
> > when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> > into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> > jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> > 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> > of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> > mottling.
> >
> > it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
> >
> > regards,
> > charlie
> > phx, az
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > > To: glass@bungi.com
> > > Subject: New project
> > >
> > >
> > > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > > dolphin and a
> > > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > > Since I'm
> > > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> > >
> > > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> > >
> > > Dorothy
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> > >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:21:15 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG - class acts on bungi
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:59:22 -0400
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Hi everyone,

Just a quick word to let everyone know that
I have really appreciated the decency
and class exhibited  in communicating on bungi
the past four years.... it's very rare for anyone
to express themselves on this forum using
foul language... what makes it even more rare
is that it IS so rare in our rather un-civil society
today!  I, for one, really appreciate it... thanks.

Best regards,

Dani Greer

"When you lose your temper, it makes you wrong....
even when you're right."
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:33:17 1999
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From: diane_steele@joinme.com
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Subject: Long Time No see...
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 19:16:19 -0400
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<HTML>
<BODY>

<FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">
<FONT size=3D2>              <BR>
<BR>
         <B> * Toss The 9 to 5 *<BR>
</B> <BR>
Does Financial Freedom Interest You?<BR>
How about being your own boss?<BR>
Working your own hours?<BR>
Answering ONLY to yourself?<BR>
Skydiving in Egypt? (just making sure you're listening)<BR>
<BR>
Are you interested in applying your skills towards the<BR>
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If you are motivated, trainable and serious about starting<BR>
a home-based business, then we would like to talk with you!<BR>
Reply with name, address, phone number and the best time<BR>
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:50:39 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: The E-Tour....Lift-Off
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:14:31 +0000
Message-ID: <199908020021.AAA20955@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk



Hi Everybody,

It's one o'clock in the morning UK tim.....YOU are between 6 - 8 
hours behind us. I have JUST packed my suitcases.....AND tool-box.
By the time you read this..... I will be somewhere over the Atlantic.
I'll see you in the next few days!!!!

Elisabeth 'n stay-at-home-Toby (who will need a lot of support...    
:-<    )
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 20:02:15 1999
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From: "Michele Spruill" <mrsdesigns@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 19:27:54 PDT
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The big move is done and I have time to read/think about glass again.
Hooray!  M


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 23:03:47 1999
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From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG - class acts on bungi
Date: Sun Aug  1 22:19:29 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.195729.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.155922.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

dani
if i read it correctly, the message was sent to tim privately and he
forwarded it to the list

i am not sticking up for blake, but i am i correct that blake did not send
it to the list?


debbie

taylor'd Expressions
"Your complete art glass supply source."
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
1-888-488-9616 (toll free)

----- Original Message -----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 7:59 PM
Subject: NG - class acts on bungi


> Hi everyone,
>
> Just a quick word to let everyone know that
> I have really appreciated the decency
> and class exhibited  in communicating on bungi
> the past four years.... it's very rare for anyone
> to express themselves on this forum using
> foul language... what makes it even more rare
> is that it IS so rare in our rather un-civil society
> today!  I, for one, really appreciate it... thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dani Greer
>
> "When you lose your temper, it makes you wrong....
> even when you're right."
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 23:25:12 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun Aug  1 22:22:02 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.2002.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.11416.0>>
Organization: taylor'd Expressions
Precedence: bulk

was this not sent to you personally? why is it appearing on bungi?

debbie

taylor'd Expressions
"Your complete art glass supply source."
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
1-888-488-9616 (toll free)

----- Original Message -----
From: Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>
To: Tim Atwood <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


> Fuck you Tim.
>
> What kind of an asshole goes and sends something like this to my personal
> address... knowing that I have already left the list because of assholes
> like you.
>
> You've been an asshole in everysingle post you ever made on the bungi
list,
> and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.
>
> fuck you Tim.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
> To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>; Glenna
> Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:06 PM
> Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)
>
>
> >> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
> >> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
> >> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they
shall
> >and shant do?<
> >>
> >
> >I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
> >the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this
list.
> >I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos,
whats
> >and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
> >unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
> >never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
> >with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
> >"nazi" as I can imagine.
> >
> >I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their
time,
> >computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
> >the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for
all
> >stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort
it
> >must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
> >problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
> >the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the
stained
> >glass community completely awesome.
> >
> >I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the
free
> >and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.
> >
> >Thank you Glenna!
> >
> >Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm
> >
> >
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 06:40:11 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: new project
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:25:55 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.12555.0>
Precedence: bulk

A friend of mine, used to work in a gold mine, and over a period of years
picked up a pickup load of interesting rocks.  I sent some to my brother to
slice for me (he used his ceramic tile wet cutter).  Then one of the people
in my stained glass class asked to use a selection of them in a southwestern
scene.  The rocks were filled with natural semi-precious stone formations,
such as turquoise and amethyst.  These stones were very rough around the
edges, but she was still able to foil.  She overlapped in some areas.  Our
instructor knew of a spray to treat them that gave them a smooth shiney
surface on the front,  the same effect as if they had been polished, so they
blended well with the glass.  This project had a great impact on me...the
colors going through the natural stones added a great depth to her project.
They added weight and a naturalness that was haunting.   It was one of those
pieces of stained glass that stays in your mind because it was so unusual.

I  have a box full of these stone slices and some geodes waiting for just
the right project.  But so far, I am keeping myself on my piggie of a
tesselation.  I have cut all my pieces and ground to fit, I am firing the
pieces in batches now to round the edges and add texture.  I keep thinking
of the foiling....and I am now wondering if this would look good as a
mosaic?  Ok...I have chicken feet!  cj

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 06:55:16 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: Pat Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Robert & Jeanne <keane@heesun.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New soldering iron
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:01:13 -0400
Message-ID: <37A59698.66B4C6BB@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Jul31.183439.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mary,

As you look for a new iron, do keep in mind whether your rheostat is a
"two-prong" or a "three-prong" type.  If it can accommodate a three-prong
plug then you have all the choices in irons, but if it has two, then
so must your iron (unless you buy a new rheostat).

Good luck in your search!

PJ Jellison

> 
> At 09:21 PM 7/31/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi all... (posted to two lists, so please forgive repeat)
> >I am in the market for a new soldering iron, and want to purchase the best
> >one available. I have a rheostat already, so just need the iron.
> >Thanks in advance!
> >Mary
> >
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 07:56:50 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Scented glass
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:02:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.5237.0>
Precedence: bulk

A year or more ago when I was wondering about uses for tumbled glass,
several people mentioned that it would hold a scent well (those
concentrated oils you can buy at craft stores).  Well, I did finallly
get around to trying it out and so far, so good (it's been about two
weeks and my little bowl of tumbled glass is still smelling as strong as
ever.)  So I'm going to make little cubes and bag up the glass...
Of course, when I started to put together a cube last night, I heard
that dreadful pop of glass cracking....  The glass was so textured, it
took me a long time to see the crack, so I figured the first cube will
make a nice demo model!  Looks pretty good, smells wonderfully.

And the temperature has dropped AND the humidity has dropped, so
soldering will not be an icky chore.  We also need to pour a concrete
slab for some repair work for the house and will be able to do it in the
evening, I think.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 08:17:18 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Geodes used in glass
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:15:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.61558.0>
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Message text written by "Dawn Marie Barker"
>Someone on the list mentioned using geodes in a  waterfall panel.  I =3D=

have seen geodes used in box lids before - but cannot for the life of me =
=3D
figure out how to foil the crinkly, porous edges of the geodes I have... =
=3D
can anyone tell me?<

Get foil wide enough to cover the crinkly, porous edges of the geode
and go to with with hand-foiling.  Nothing magical.  Just hard labor.

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 08:17:21 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Agate Slabs
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:16:00 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.6160.0>
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Message text written by David
>Does any one know of any (or many) links r't jade or agate slabs?<

You might try Fire Mountain Gems.  They have everything for stones,
etc.  1-800423-2319

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 11:49:03 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:20:46 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.42046.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.2002.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

I am sending this message to all of bungi because there appears to be some
confusion where many people on bungi appear to believe a message containing
offensive language came from me.  This is to clarify that it in fact did not
come from me.  Due to the offensive nature of the original message, I will
make all further replies regarding this matter privately only.

1. I absolutely DID NOT forward this to Bungi.  While I am not always as
tactful as I should be, I would never forward such a message to a general
list.  And even if I was to forward it to some particular individuals (which
I did not), I would always delete the offensive language as in the copy
below.

2. If I am reading the properties of the original message correctly, "Blake,
Wayne, & Susan" cc'd the entire Bungi group.  The properties listing from
the message I received at 2:41 pm follows.  Please note the "Cc:" entry.

3. For some reason, "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" then sent a second copy of the
message to me without the "Cc:" which I received at 3:48pm.  It appears
"Blake, Wayne, & Susan" also sent this second copy directly to certain
individuals, some of whom used their direct copies for replying rather than
the bungi cc'd copy.

4. If I am reading the text from some of the replies I am receiving
correctly, it would appear "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" overrode the "reply to"
on the second copy to be myself rather than him/them (many e-mail clients
allow specifying a different "reply to" than the actual sender).  The copy I
received did not have this "reply to" override, so I am not able to show
this directly.

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Message-ID: <01da01bedc66$90b4de60$81c502cf@kindred>
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Tim Atwood" <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Cc: "Bungi Group" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:41:06 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Status:
....etc

Thank you - Tim Atwood

----- Original Message -----
From: <daver!one.net!kleeman@dns.cyberlink.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


> was this not sent to you personally? why is it appearing on bungi?
>
> debbie
>
> taylor'd Expressions
> "Your complete art glass supply source."
> kleeman@one.net
> http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
> 1-888-488-9616 (toll free)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>
> To: Tim Atwood <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 5:41 PM
> Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)
>
>
> > <explicative deleted> you Tim.
> >
> > What kind of an <explicative deleted> goes and sends something like this
to my personal
> > address... knowing that I have already left the list because of
<explicative deleted>
> > like you.
> >
> > You've been an <explicative deleted> in everysingle post you ever made
on the bungi
> list,
> > and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.
> >
> > <explicative deleted> you Tim.
> >
> >




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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 12:20:53 1999
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From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
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unsubscribe
Fantasy In Glass, 703 The Queensway, Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 =
(Tel:416-252-6868)
Canada's first and yes, still its only officially sanctioned stained =
glass supplier.


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 14:22:12 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:06:14 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.12614.0>
Precedence: bulk

Whether the post from Blake was personal
or public isn't the issue.... it was abusive and
low-class behaviour in any case.  Yuck.  I =

had thought better of him.... very disappointing.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:32:14 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "2 Suzanne de Tulsa" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Putty questions
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:03:32 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.9332.0>
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I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
liquid to make the putty flow like honey.

Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?

I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?

Bob

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:49:55 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: new project
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:59:52 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.85952.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.12555.0>>
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Dear Claudette...
It sounds like it's going to be beautiful....

Re the rocks and stones....there's a wonderful technique that the jewelers use
to use solder to make "fingers" to hold rocks and stones and jewels and crystals

in 3-D formats...like on Kaleidoscopes...  your beautiful turquoise and other
stones
might decorate a piece you make, using that technique.

Regards,
Cheryl Ryder


Claudette Jaramillo wrote:

> A friend of mine, used to work in a gold mine, and over a period of years
> picked up a pickup load of interesting rocks.  I sent some to my brother to
> slice for me (he used his ceramic tile wet cutter).  Then one of the people
> in my stained glass class asked to use a selection of them in a southwestern
> scene.  The rocks were filled with natural semi-precious stone formations,
> such as turquoise and amethyst.  These stones were very rough around the
> edges, but she was still able to foil.  She overlapped in some areas.  Our
> instructor knew of a spray to treat them that gave them a smooth shiney
> surface on the front,  the same effect as if they had been polished, so they
> blended well with the glass.  This project had a great impact on me...the
> colors going through the natural stones added a great depth to her project.
> They added weight and a naturalness that was haunting.   It was one of those
> pieces of stained glass that stays in your mind because it was so unusual.
>
> I  have a box full of these stone slices and some geodes waiting for just
> the right project.  But so far, I am keeping myself on my piggie of a
> tesselation.  I have cut all my pieces and ground to fit, I am firing the
> pieces in batches now to round the edges and add texture.  I keep thinking
> of the foiling....and I am now wondering if this would look good as a
> mosaic?  Ok...I have chicken feet!  cj
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:56:20 1999
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X-Path: domesticity.net!bethanie
From: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 06:26:15 -0400
Message-ID: <l03130300b3cb215f05ec@[192.168.0.3]>
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Greetings all!

Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
preference for the practical.)

Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!

Thanks!

....Bethanie....


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 17:55:35 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:01:30 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.9130.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.84050.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I was wondering from which part of Canada the Canadian Jade I've seen
listed on the Gem sites had originated....now I know.

Many thanks and best regards,
Cheryl

rrk wrote:

> There are also jade deposits on the coast in British Columbia ... I've
> seen then referred to as the Jade Cliffs of GC.  This info is available
> everywhere.
>
> Apparently you can get relatively large blocks of jade from these
> deposits ... where relatively large = 2' to 3' square or even larger ...
> just hearsay from the lapidary community of some time back ... I've
> never seen one with my own eyes.
>
> meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> >
> > There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
> > there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
> > break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
> > walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
> > family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
> > was:  Jadite or
> > Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
> > in
> > the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Cheryl
> >
> > Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > > when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> > > into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> > > jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> > > 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> > > of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> > > mottling.
> > >
> > > it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > charlie
> > > phx, az
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > > > To: glass@bungi.com
> > > > Subject: New project
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > > > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > > > dolphin and a
> > > > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > > > Since I'm
> > > > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > > > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> > > >
> > > > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > > > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> > > >
> > > > Dorothy
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> > > >
> > > ----
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> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> ----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 19:34:24 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: new project
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:38:46 -0400
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Precedence: bulk

8/2/99 6:59 PM meryder@pacbell.net meryder@pacbell.net

>
>Re the rocks and stones....there's a wonderful technique that the jewelers 
>use
>to use solder to make "fingers" to hold rocks and stones and jewels and 
>crystals

Sounds interesting. Can you tell me more about it?

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 20:08:13 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:00:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.17024.0>
References: <<l03130300b3cb215f05ec@[192.168.0.3]>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Bethanie Brown wrote:
> 
> Greetings all!
> 
> Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
> couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
> projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
> multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
> should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
> or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
> preference for the practical.)
> 
> Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
> any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ....Bethanie....
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i recomened stained glass boxes simplified II - CKE publishing - by J.
Floyd. it's where i learned how to make the 5 piece lid.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 20:38:52 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Beveler4
From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:16:21 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.21621.0>
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Well I said that I'd report what was new at Kokomo,not really thinking that 
there would be much to report but boy was I wrong.They have a new texture 
that they are adding to their line of glass and it is awesome.They are also 
back to making Slab Glass (aka.Dalle de Verra glass) again and they have a 
new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their own 
corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on 
handblown objects right now with plans to get into blown flat glass. they 
have pretty much freedom to do about whatever they desire(tough job). Kokomo 
also plans on getting into thr fusing market they are going to send me the 
info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the 
catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what 
the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 21:46:54 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Bethanie Brown" <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:31:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.133134.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
or enjoy. <<

I recommend that you purchase a complete kaleidoscope kit and put it
together. You will find that there are also stripped down kits available for
some K-scopes and you can progress on to them. After a while you can buy
sheet front surface mirror and buy nothing in kit form.

Once you have made a few K-scopes you will have a good handle on the
problems with working in 3-D. BTW, K-scopes are something that is very
popular with all ages.

Bob (who hasn't made a scope in a long time)

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 22:20:30 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Beveler4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:58:14 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.135814.0>
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>>). Kokomo
also plans on getting into the fusing market they are going to send me the
info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the
catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what
the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)<<

Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success with
it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.

Bob


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 22:21:38 1999
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X-Path: texcom-mail.army.mil!kellypatrick
From: "Patrick Kelly" <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
To: <glass@bungi.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG: E Tour
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 23:00:08 -0500
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I am afraid..... very afraid..... Fee Fi Fo Fum..... I smell the scent of =
an Englishman (or woman).

I sense the presence of a furinor..... (Texas talk)

Let's play a game...... Instead of "Where's Elmo".... Its "Where's "E" . =
Or instead of  "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego" its.... Where in =
the US is "E the Brit (or Swede)".

I'll go first .....I think she is in Pennsylvania. The day she arrived =
there was a tornado in Va., so I know she is hunting for me..... HELP! =
Close but no cigar "E"... Better luck next time....smile


Help me keep track of her .... my passport has expired and I need to keep =
one step ahead of her ... or my gnomon will be in peril....again.


Patrick
Roses and Rainbows



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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 23:13:28 1999
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From: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
To: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199908030412.AAA13028@hpamraaa.compuserve.com>
Precedence: bulk

A flat panel lamp under your belt before a tiffany is helpful.
I love Carol Conte's pattern.  For a lamp that has more pieces
and pushes the skill level I like the Odassey form and pattern
of your choice.  Have made a lamp form/pattern myself but it is VERY
labor intensive and frustrating.

>Greetings all!
>
>Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
>couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
>projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
>multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
>should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
>or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
>preference for the practical.)
>
>Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
>any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!
>
>Thanks!
>
>....Bethanie....
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 00:40:39 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Patrick Kelly <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG: E Tour
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 01:41:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.20415.0>
References: <<s7a6230d.076@texcom.army.mil>>
Precedence: bulk

I think she brought a cool breeze with her. :o) 
Wish this meant I could pack a sweater!  
The temp is actually down to 80* tonight and it feels cool! 
We even had a slight sprinkle.
So I'm guessing she is somewhere in the heartland. ;o)

Suzanne
-- 
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 01:04:30 1999
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From: "laurie good" <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:18:19 PDT
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Precedence: bulk


Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


_______________________________________________________________
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: hanging trout 3-d lamp
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:42:23 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.104223.0>
Precedence: bulk


Hi all-

For those who like fish check out this hanging 3-d trout lamp at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=138477405

pretty neat- would live to find out where the hardware comes from..

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 06:38:23 1999
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From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: glassx@bardstown.com
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Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:07:37 EDT
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Hi Ricki,
I don't work for Kokomo I just went there to pick up some glass for my shop 
and studio,I,m not sure that they have an E-mail list that they send to 
regularly or not I will talk to them and see, and if they do I'll tell them 
to include you.I have a commission studio in Indiana and a retail store in 
Cinti,Oh.that I have to keep supplied,my next trip will be back to Columbus 
Oh where I get most of my glass and supplies,then probably a trip to Blenko 
in W.Va. to pick up some of their blown glass.I also forgot to mention the 
name of the new texture in my last letter it is "Vertigo" a very swirly 
texture not like baroque, this has a very definite pattern to it.
I also forgot to mention that they are going to start producing Rondels there 
at Kokomo, that should be interesting. Beveler4(Stan)
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:03:52 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass question...maybe....
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:46:37 +0000
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> Does anyone know when the next Glass Exhibition that they have in
> Las = Vegas is going to be next year.  I checked with IGGA and Art
> Glass = World..no info.  Isn't usually in March?

Glenna's right: March 9-12, 2000. And thanks for pointing that out, 
'cause I hadn't updated the listing on the IGGA site (it's under "Las 
Vegas Management," the company that mounts the show, but using the 
"Search this site" tool will turn it up, too).

Their Tampa FL show's set for Sept. 30 - Oct. 3, 1999.

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:12:36 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, 'Patrick, Kelly'
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: E Tour
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:51:35 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.45135.0>
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Patrick 

Look at the bright side.
At least the mutton loving Toby is still in the UK.
It's just a match of skills and wit between you and our lovely Viking,
Elisabeth.
I'd be afraid too.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 

PS I'm putting my money on the Viking. Any takers?

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Patrick Kelly
[mailto:kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 12:00 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.COM
		Subject:	NG: E Tour

		I am afraid..... very afraid..... Fee Fi Fo Fum..... I smell
the scent of =
		an Englishman (or woman).

		I sense the presence of a furinor..... (Texas talk)

		Let's play a game...... Instead of "Where's Elmo".... Its
"Where's "E" . =
		Or instead of  "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego"
its.... Where in =
		the US is "E the Brit (or Swede)".

		I'll go first .....I think she is in Pennsylvania. The day
she arrived =
		there was a tornado in Va., so I know she is hunting for
me..... HELP! =
		Close but no cigar "E"... Better luck next time....smile


		Help me keep track of her .... my passport has expired and I
need to keep =
		one step ahead of her ... or my gnomon will be in
peril....again.


		Patrick
		Roses and Rainbows



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:42:41 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:52:30 -0400
Message-ID: <199908031253.IAA06518@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
>
1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the 
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between 
the glass.
4) Have fun!

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:05:59 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Bullseye Web site round II
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
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>From rec.crafts.glass:

>Technical information about kilnworking with Bullseye's Tested Compatible
>glasses and product information about Bullseye's glasses for stained
>glass,
>kilnworking, lampworking and blowing is now available at
>
>  http://www.bullseye-glass.com
>
>We hope you find this resource useful!
>
>Mary Kay 
>Bullseye Glass Co.
>marykaynitchie@bullseye-glass.com

I tried the URL this morning and it worked.
Jim

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:25:41 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: beginning 3D projects
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:27:32 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.22732.0>
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Bethanie, take a look at Mike Savad's web page on boxes.  I didn't buy a
book, I just saw his, and was inspired. (I made a very simple vase first and
then branched into hinges and a lid).   I do recommend some sort of holder
for the sides when assembling.  I made mine at my welding class,  that way I
get perfect 90 degree angles.  I made a lot of these boxes for Christmas
presents.  In fact Mike was the one who inspired me to order a bunch of
agates for the covers.  Everyone loved them.  I made a few for our local
guild's 4th of July sale and all of them sold.  Using bevels is another
excellent way to begin.  But be careful...they can be ever so slightly off
square, you have to spend the time to check and grind.  They are many ways
to make the hinges for boxes and you may want to consult the archives...or
just write to Mike (he helped me there too.)  I have learned three methods
and use each for different applications.  I prefer making my own now that I
know how.  It saves money and time...but I recommend not starting there.

As far as practical uses, I made a few vases for my dresser to hold my hair
spray, hand lotion, and even a kleenex box holder.  I made small 2 x 2 bevel
vases for holding the 'sweet & low', and found out from SG news that those
small boxes that motrin, etc come in make perfect liners (just paint the
outside).  My granddaughter who has made only four projects with me, made a
darling 3" x 3" post-it note holder for her grandfather for Father's Day.
(Which reminds me, I wait to cut the bottom until I have the four sides
together, to check for fit.)

You will have to show us your first one....it always inspires me to see the
work of others...and to hear the lessons learned.  Since I am a beginner
too, I especially like to hear from other beginners....the 'glass
challenged' like to hear about other's challenges!!  Once you finish the
first one, it does get easier...I promise.  Of course to inspire to do work
like Mike, is a worthwhile endeavor.  cj



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:26:38 1999
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From: NEICYDENN@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:01:54 EDT
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In a message dated 8/3/1999 3:05:30 AM Central Daylight Time, 
lauriegood@hotmail.com writes:

<< Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put 
some 
 wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
 some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie 
>>

Laurie,

I just finished a small teddy bear sun catcher for my daughter. She pressed 
some flowers from the garden, I put them between 2 clear pieces of glass in 
the tummy section of the bear. The flowers I used were all the same thickness 
(thin) so when sandwiched between the glass they don't move, then just foil 
together. I think if you were to use thick flowers, like daisies, it might 
not work. As far as adhesives, maybe a spray on one wouldn't show through the 
glass.

Good luck,
Denise
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:50:47 1999
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From: glasscc <joyce@mail.bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 07:44:52 -0400
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At 12:18 AM 8/3/99 PDT, laurie good wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


No adhesive is necessary, but sandwiching them between the pieces of glass
can be tricky.  I clean both pieces of glass, and usually use one side as a
bevel to frame my flowers somewhat.  I then foil both pieces of glass and
place the flowers carefully in between and then use some clamps with
cardboard as a cushion to make sure I don't fracture the glass.  I try to
place the clamps equally so that I don't cause too much pressure on two
sides causing the glass to break.  After I get that in place I put another
thicker foil around both pieces of glass to make sure no flux gets in
between the two pieces.  I then solder it into my piece making sure to try
to center the thick piece, so that it's not hanging too much to the front
or the back.

If I'm sandwiching the flowers between two bevels, I make sure to tin them
first and clean and polish them, and then use a dry flux brush to spot
solder where they criss cross each other.

Joyce



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:57:01 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:06:44 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.5644.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by INTERNET:Beveler4@aol.com
>They are also =

back to making Slab Glass (aka.Dalle de Verra glass) again and they have =
a =

new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their o=
wn

corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on =

handblown objects right now with plans to get into blown flat glass. they=
 =

have pretty much freedom to do about whatever they desire(tough job).<

Kokomo Art Glass (the division which is the blown glass) was at this past=

weekend's Buyers Market of American Craft wholesale show in Philadelphia.=

I met the 2 glass blowers.  Nice, skinny fellas, similar to almost all
glass blowers
I've met.  Their product line for giftwares is along the same lines as th=
e
Youghiogheny Art Glass hot glass company.  This was the KOG guys first
outting into the wholesale gift market.  They said they did resonably wel=
l
for
their first outting, and would be making some changes to their product li=
ne
to
better meet the needs of the people who were buying.  It looked first-rat=
e.
Good glass.  Nice color combos.  They were working on paperweights, glass=

corporate trophies, sculptures, etc.  Nice stuff though.

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 09:24:20 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue Aug  3 08:37:08 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.6158.0>
References: <<199908031253.IAA06518@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

	you may want to also use a little food coloring on the petals of the flowers to keep them
from fading as fast....

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616

-----Original Message-----
From: suzy@comcat.com [mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:53 AM
To: glass bungi line
Subject: Re: wildflowers


8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
>
1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between
the glass.
4) Have fun!

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 09:42:38 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, "'suzy@comcat.com'" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:09:14 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.7914.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you don't need to
use flux at all.
Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great. Should work with a
"wildflower sandwich".

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	suzy@comcat.com [mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:53 AM
		To:	glass bungi line
		Subject:	Re: wildflowers

		8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

		>
		>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.
I've just put some 
		>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a
try. Do you need 
		>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the
glass?  Thanks, Laurie
		>
		1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in
place.
		2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints
on the 
		insides of both pieces before you solder.
		3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can
seep between 
		the glass.
		4) Have fun!

		suzanne albright
		suzy@comcat.com

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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: laurie good <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:52:07 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.1527.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.71819.0>>
Precedence: bulk



laurie good wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some
> wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
> some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


My best friend runs a wildflower seed biz online and knows quite a bit
about everything that has to do with wildflowers including the things
you're asking about.  I suggest you go to one of her sites,
http://www.prairiefrontier.com will do, send her an email (her name is
Deb and tell her I said to ask her <smile>) with your question, and
she'll answer.  If she doesn't know herself (she probably does) then
she'll tell you who does know.  Her site has won lots of awards, been
advertised in the WSJ, Time, Newsweek by Link Exchange, is constantly
referenced on HGTV, and is referenced by many other sites like the USDA
and so on because she has a mountain of information about wildflowers
there, particularly native American wildflowers.

Regards ... Bob
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 10:03:39 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:01:30 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.2130.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between
the glass.<<

I use the smallest amount of Elmer's Glue that will do the job to hold the
flower arrangement in place and let the glue dry before assembling it to the
glass. Otherwise the glue may smudge out into an unsightly blot.

For the LEAST amount of flux I dampen a paper towel with flux and lightly
rub the flux on the copper to be soldered.

Good luck, Bob

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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Elisabeth you've arrived-welcome!!
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 09:06:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.2649.0>
References: <<3.0.3.32.19990802190454.0096ba70@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>>
Organization: Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

To our lovely Elisabeth!!

A huge welcome to the United States of America Elisabeth from all of us on the
E-Tour and I'm sure from all of Bungiland!!

Glad your finally here and I'll see you in Seattle!!

Love

Pam





Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 10:32:03 1999
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To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:32:41 -0700
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
> for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
> liquid to make the putty flow like honey.
> 
> Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
> for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
> starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?
> 
> I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
> standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
> clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?



>From various places on da net.

****************************

Linseed oil, derived from flax (linseeds), is a major ingredient in many
fine oil paints, varnishes and stains. Linseed oil contains a mixture of
glycerides of unsaturated fatty acids: linolenic, linoleic, oleic,
stearic, palmitic, myristic. [Merck Index, 8th ed.] The oil dries by air
oxidation to solid (or viscous) products.

Linoleum is a flooring that is manufactured by oxidizing linseed oil to
form a thick mixture called linoleum cement. The cement is cooled and
mixed with pine resin, and wood flour to form sheets on a jute backing. 

Blown Linseed Oils are polymerized by oxidation to increase viscosity
and acid number. Blown Linseed is used as a wetting agent for printing
inks and a grinding media. In coatings applications, Blown Linseed is
used as a plasticizer for leather, non-pentatrating finishes, caulks and
weather -proofing compounds. Blown Linseed Oils dry faster than
heat-bodied linseed oils. 

****************************

 OK.  I can see it will take longer to find someone else's explanation
on da net (assuming its even there) than it will to simply type it out. 
So ... here we go.

The question is whether to use boiled or raw linseed oil for making
putty ... and how much linseed oil (raw or boiled) is necessary.

Now, linseed oil of either type (raw or boiled) polymerizes in the
presence of oxygen to form a cross-linked polymer.

What happens is that the carbon-carbon double bond (the unsaturated part
of unsaturated fatty acids above) of the fatty glycerides forms a
peroxide from a reaction with oxygen in the air.  This peroxide is
(relatively) unstable and then forms a (highly) unstable and very
reactive free radical.  The free radical of one fatty acid reacts with
the carbon-carbon double bond of another fatty acid to form a
carbon-carbon bond .... thereby forming a dimer ... two molecules bonded
together ... the first part of a chain.  This reaction repeats itself
forming a trimer ... three molecules bonded together ... and so on 
until a very long chain is formed ... a polymer.

When you "boil" linseed oil, or thermally treat linseed oil, the
peroxide is made; 1/3rd of the reaction is already done.  Since making
the perioxide is the slow step, this speeds up the overall process
tremendously.  So, when you buy boiled linseed oil, you're probably
buying Linseed Oil Peroxide.

This is exactly how they make poly(ethylene) and poly(propylene) btw. 
Ethylene gas is reacted with oxygen gas at high temperature and in the
presence of a catalyst (another substance to speed things up) to make
ethylene oxide.  The ethylene oxide degrades to a free radical and
attacks another molecule of ethylene forming the chain as described
above.

Tung Oil, and other similar products, work in exactly the same manner
differing only in the mixture of fatty acids on the glycerides and
perhaps the fatty acids themselves are a little different.

OK.  So what does this have to do with mongolian sword swallowers?

Well ... when you mix boiled linseed oil with whiting to make putty,
oxygen from the air needed for the first step of the reaction is no
longer present ... or not much.  However, the oxygen from the air is no
longer needed ... since the peroxide is already formed ... and the
polymerization reaction can continue in the absence of oxygen.  That is,
the putty will harden up anyway ... it will harden up (polymerize) in
the absence of oxygen in the air.

When you mix raw linseed oil with whiting, it will probably never make
the first step, or VERY slowly since there is no oxygen available for
the reaction.  That is, the putty will never harden up, or very very
very very slowly, decades probably, maybe never.

The evaporation of turpentine (which functions as a solvent, or diluent)
will thicken the putty, but the evaporation will not harden up the
putty.  The turpentine basically thins out the boiled linseed oil so you
can mix it better, more completely that is, with the whiting with a lot
less effort.

In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
harden up, use raw linseed oil.

Now if you add enough boiled linseed oil to make a putty, you've
probably got enough linseed oil.  Just guessing ... but 25% is probably
sufficient though maybe on the low side.  Remember, the whiting itself
is a dilutent vis-a-vis the linseed oil, and if you dilute the boiled
linseed oil with TOO much whiting, it will not be able to form the
proper polymer, maybe not even polymerize at all, and your putty will
probably crumble up rather easily.  If you use too much turpentine (say
like 90/10), there might not be enough boiled linseed oil to form a good
solid matrix with the whiting and the final product rather crumbly.  I
do think that 75 turpentine 25 boiled linseed oil might be cutting it a
bit close ... yielding an inadequate final product.  To be on the safe
side, you might consider staying in the 70/30 to 30/70 range ... maybe
even the 60/40 to 40/60 range.  The exact quantities can only be
determined empirically by yourself though.  If you have good results
with 50/50 ... why change? In any case, from a strictly business point
of view, the real cost is your time, not the cost of turpentine, whiting
and linseed oil (raw or boiled).  You don't want to shortchange your
customers, but as long as you know you're doing things right (in this
case, putting sufficient linseed oil in), you aren't shortchanging them.

Now I'm just guessing on some of this (mainly the last paragraph) ...
but I'm probably pretty close.

The above is my best guess anyway ... I'm not a specialist in polymer
chemistry, though I ran this by my wife, who IS a polymer chemist, and
she agreed with me. [No harm in double-checking is there <G>]

Hope this helps.

Best regards ........ Bob
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo, and where I saw it....
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:26:14 EDT
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In a message dated 8/2/99 11:41:07 PM, Beveler4@aol.com writes:

>they have a 
>new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their
>own corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on
>handblown objects right now

KOG had a booth at the Buyers' Market of American Craft (the humongous 
wholesale contemporary art craft show that was held at the Convention Center 
in Philly over the wekend...... I was able to get a pass thanks to Christie, 
who was coordinating the IGGA booth and showing her work there along with 4 
or 5 other IGGA artists).

KOG showed an assortment of blown glass bowls, vases, sculptures, etc. - 
nothing too far-out, mostly one or two colors, or one color in clear, and no 
really wild colors, but very nice work.

Yough had a booth too; I seem to recall that their stuff was a bit wilder 
than KOG's (although there was so much to see, it all sort of became a blur 
in my mind after a while!).

That was quite a show in general........ about a thousand exhibitors in all 
kinds of media. Lots of blown glass of all kinds, some fused glass, and a 
little bit of stained glass, both copperfoil and mosaic work - as well as 
pottery, wood, metal, fiber, jewelry, clocks, fountains, scultpure...... I 
went around with my jaw dragging on the floor. Everything from "mainstream" 
production stuff to one-of-a-kind pieces like you'd see in a gallery or 
museum.

The coolest thing was getting to meet most of the artists whose work I know 
from the retail side of Christie's shop, and to see some of the other things 
they're doing. Also met Bandhu Scott Dunham (one of the gods of 
lampworking/flameworking) - a very nice guy, as were all the artists I talked 
with.


Sparks
    who came away so amazed,
    I just *might* let my arm get twisted
    into helping work the booth next time..........
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:00:06 1999
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In a message dated 8/3/1999 11:25:18 AM Central Daylight Time, 
daver!one.net!kleeman@aol.com writes:

<< you may want to also use a little food coloring on the petals of the 
flowers to keep them
 from fading as fast.... >>

How do you put the food color on?
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:51:13 -0700
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>>In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
harden up, use raw linseed oil.<<

Thanks Bob for a great discussion of the topic. The above raises a question
in my mind. What about mixing about 10% raw linseed oil with the boiled
linseed oil to increase the life of the putty? Is there a chance that this
could increase the life of the unrestored window by a number of years?

My experience is that failure of the putty is the first major step in the
breakdown of a stained glass window. Delaying this failure point is in the
clients best interest and a potential brag point for my studio. I already
guarantee that I will not be around for the normal failure of the window.

Bob (the older)


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:18:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Putty question (long)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:52:58 -0400 (EDT)
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Bob,

I reviewed the Bungi archive and discovered this 1997 post from Albert.  
Not sure it answers your question, but it sure does give a lot of
information on the components that make up putty.  

==============================================================================

From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@computer.net>
Subject: Re: Amended cement recipe
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:25:39 +0000

>  Eactly what
> IS whiting?? My understanding is that it is powdered chalk; yet
> oither people tell me it's plaster, others again tell me it's a
> mixture of chalk AND plaster; others again tell me it is dead,
> inactive plaster. It's white so it's called whiting. There must be
> more to it than that...
> So what is it exactly???

This from Julie Sloan's "Conservation of Stained Glass in America,"
http://www.aiap.com/     with permission:

Traditionally, waterproofing compound was composed basically of boiled
linseed oil and whiting, with plaster of Paris to extend the mixture,
turpentine to thin it, red, white or yellow lead as a drier of the
oil, and lamp black to color the compound grey. These six ingredients
are found in most recipes for waterproofing putty from the nineteenth
century until the mid-1970s, when the use of lead was outlawed in the
US.

Linseed oil is a drying oil, used as the medium in artists' oil paint.
In waterproofing compound, boiled linseed oil is used because it dries
more quickly than unboiled oil. The process of drying is not a
volatilization; that is, nothing evaporates from linseed oil to leave
a solid behind, which is what happens when lacquers or watercolors,
for instance, dry. Instead, linseed oil oxidizes and polymerizes,
meaning that it absorbs oxygen from the atmosphere, which causes a
chemical change in the oil and results in its thickening and
hardening. A chemical change cannot be re-versed; set waterproofing
compound can never be dissolved to its constituent components of
linseed oil and whiting, unlike lacquer, for instance, which can be
dissolved in the medium in which it was applied originally.

This absorption of oxygen and subsequent chemical change begins to
take place when linseed oil is heated or exposed to driers or other
chemicals, or to sunlight. This is the beginning of the polymerization
process. Boiled linseed oil is not actually boiled; it is heated until
oxidation begins, but the boiling point is not reached. Today,
"boiled" oil is dried with chemicals. This drying process results in a
thicker substance which takes less time to fully polymerize.
Ultimately, when applied and left to set in the air, the fully
polymerized (or dried) oil becomes hard, very dur-able and waterproof.
Although full drying requires literally tens of years (especially in
thick applications, such as in a bevel), initial oxidation and drying
is achieved in two or three days, after which time a skin or harder
surface has formed which may be painted. Sunlight aids in the drying
process, although too much sun causes cracking.

Whiting is powdered calcium carbonate, or chalk. It is inert, meaning
that it reacts chemically with nothing. It has long been used as an
inexpensive and inferior white pigment in non-oil paints or an
extender for oil paints. Combined with linseed oil, it has a long
history as a putty used in repairing paintings, not to mention in the
glazing of windows.

Plaster of Paris is calcium sulfate. It is produced by roasting gypsum
(which is also calcium sulfate) to drive off most of the water bonded
to its molecules. This allows plaster of Paris to become active,
capable of readily and quickly re-combining with water to form a hard,
brittle material. This ability to combine with water is probably not
why it was used in putties, where such a hard-setting, brittle,
water-soluble ma-terial is not desired. While whiting is used as an
extender for oil paints, plaster was considered inferior for this use
because of its hygroscopic nature (meaning it absorbs water from the
air). However, in linseed-oil putty, plaster is used as an inexpensive
extender. In putty recipes, whiting is listed as the principle solid
ingredient. Putty can be made without plaster, but not without
whiting. While plaster is listed in many (but not all) recipes, it is
always in quantities smaller than those required of whiting --
typically, three or four parts whiting to two or three parts plaster.

Turpentine is the distillate of resin from coniferous trees. It is a
commonly-used solvent for oil painting, having a slower evaporation
rate, lower level of flammability, and lower toxicity than solvents
such as kerosene, which will also thin linseed oil. As turpentine
dries, it becomes thick and viscous, which adds to the putty-like
quality of waterproofing compound.

Red lead (Pb3O4) is made by heating white lead (basic lead carbonate,
2PbCO3.Pb(OH)2, the corro-sion product of lead exposed to acetic or
other organic acids, used for pigments in white paints) or litharge
(PbO, also called yellow lead or massicot). None of these lead
products is commercially available in the United States today, either
uncombined or as part of another substance. Red lead is not primarily
used as a pigment in paints because it turns black or brown on
exposure to air, but its characteristic as an anti-corrosive made it
useful as the primary ingred-ient of rust-inhibiting paints. (The
familiar red paint used to prime iron and steel buildings and bridges,
most notably the Golden Gate Bridge, was red lead paint.) Although
white lead was, for many generations, the principle white paint
pigment, lead oxides are more important in paints and putties because
they are driers, added to linseed oil to hasten poly-merization. When
lampblack is used to color the putty, which slows the drying process,
the siccative (or drying) nature of red lead becomes even more
important. The red lead in waterproofing compound may have served a
dual purpose: to help the waterproofing compound set, and to prime the
metal.

Since red lead is no longer used in waterproofing compounds, many
experienced glaziers and restorers feel that the waterproofing
compounds commercially available today are of inferior quality to
those available prior to the banning of red and white lead in the
United States. They do not set as well or last as long as red lead
waterproofing compound.

Lamp black (also called carbon black) is a fine, almost pure carbon
powder used as a pigment. It is the soot created from burning
pet-roleum oils, tars or resins. It has been used since time
immemorial as an oil pigment. Used as the coloring agent of
waterproofing putty, it will retard the drying of the linseed oil
unless driers, like red lead, are added. Today, when we cannot use red
lead in putty, it is important that the amount of lampblack used is
kept to a minimum.

The recipes for waterproofing compound found in stained glass manuals
vary. Amounts of materials differ or are not stated and other
materials are added depending on the author. These other materials
include Japan driers, "patent driers" (metallic salts, usually lead,
cobalt, or manganese) and gold size (a fast-drying varnish), added to
accelerate the drying of the linseed oil. Some recipes call for
"vegetable black" instead of lamp black. (This is a carbon black
pigment derived by burning vegetable matter rather than petroleum
products.)

The most controversial and potentially dangerous ingredient for window
putties is Portland cement. It is only in the last thirty to forty
years that Portland cement has found its way into glazing putties.
Portland cement is a calcined mixture of roughly three parts of
calcium carbonate (chalk or limestone) to one part aluminum silicates
(clay). Its name derives from the similarity in appearance and
hardness to Portland (England) lime-stone. Portland cement sets up in
much the same way plaster of Paris does, by reacting with water to
create heat. However, whereas plaster sets very quick-ly and is
ultimately rather brittle but soluble in water, Portland cement
continues to harden for a long period of time and results in a very
hard, insoluble material.

The reason this material is dangerous to use on windows is its
hardness. A leaded glass window must move with the expansion and
contraction of the lead came during thermal changes and with wind
pressure. As Portland cement hardens and becomes more rigid, it allows
the window to move less and less. Because the cement will not flex or
crack if the window is forced to move, the glass is likely to break.
In addition, because Portland cement is insoluble, it will be
virtually impossible to dismantle the panel without breaking glass. It
also exhibits excellent adhesion to glass, meaning that even if the
panel comes apart, the putty is very difficult to remove from the
glass.

Modern commercially available putties usually contain elastomers.
These are synthetic compounds designed to keep the putty elastic for
many years, preventing it from hardening up to a rock-like
consistency. None of these has been around long enough for us to know
exactly how long they will perform their task. In Europe, butyl mastic
is a favored putty with good aging characteristics, but its
workability is only fair and it is not presently available in the
United States.

Most of the recipes require that the waterproofing compound be mixed
with enough turpentine and linseed oil to render it somewhat soupy or
"thick as treacle" (molasses). It is scooped onto the panel and forced
under the flanges of the came using a natural bristle brush. Often it
oozes out the opposite side of the panel, which is desirable,
according to some of the handbooks, because then you know that the
putty has gotten into the groove of the came. However, be cautioned
that the putty should not be too runny or there will be nothing left
under the flanges when the oozing has stopped.

This soupy mixture is not recommended, however, if there is plating on
the window. Putty that is runny enough to ooze through the came will
continue to ooze between the plates. When plating is present, a stiff,
thick putty is a better choice, made by lessening the amount of
turpentine used to thin the mixture, or by adding more whiting. It is
applied with the thumb, because it is too thick to brush.

In much restoration, a thick putty is often recommended because it is
easier to control. Thumbing the putty keeps the spread of oil on the
glass in check, making cleaning easier. Also, because a stiff putty
does not ooze, cleaning will have to performed less often. In plated
windows, each layer of plating must be puttied before the next layer
can be soldered in place. This creates its own problems, though, if
the putty boils as the leads are heated for soldering. Care must be
used in this process. If fragile paint or glass exists, even if it has
been consolidated, it may not be desirable to subject it to the rigors
of being scrubbed with bristle brushes and oily putty. Paint or glass
that is textured could trap the putty and be very difficult to clean.

Regardless of whether thick or thin putty is used, cleaning the panel
after puttying is crucial. Studies in Europe have shown that the oils
in putty, if not properly cleaned off the glass, will eventually
corrode glass paint. Liberal dusting and rubbing with whiting is the
most effective, although some glaziers also swear by sawdust. Use of
any of these should be accompanied by wearing a dust mask to prevent
aspiration of the dust. As the putty sets, further cutting back and
cleaning may be necessary to remove oils that travel to the surface.

==============================================================================



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:24:02 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:14:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.3144.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.12737.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

Kokomo's web site is: http://www.kog.com/

Their e-mail address is: koglass@kog.com

Last time I asked, they did not have a general e-mail list for notifying
people of updates, new glass, etc.  They do not appear to have a news letter
(at least it is not listed on their site).  They may have something for
retail shops, but you would have to contact them.

If your browser supports subscriptions, you can do what I have done to know
about new glass.  Set up a subscription for their home page at
http://www.kog.com/index.html and/or their digital sample page at
http://www.kog.com/Samples/Sample1.html .  When they add a new glass to
their sample page the subscription will notify you the page has changed.

"I would not, could not, kill the King.  I would not poison anything."
Green Eggs and Hamlet

Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: <Beveler4@aol.com>
To: <glassx@bardstown.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo


> Hi Ricki,
> I don't work for Kokomo I just went there to pick up some glass for my
shop
> and studio,I,m not sure that they have an E-mail list that they send to
> regularly or not I will talk to them and see, and if they do I'll tell
them
> to include you.

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:28:49 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: "'seaspray@island.net'" <seaspray@island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:39:08 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.10398.0>
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I don't think my explanation was clear enough.

You have two pieces of glass you are placing the flowers between.
Foil both pieces as you normally would.
Tin the outside edge of both pieces.
Clean up any flux, fingerprints ... from the inside surfaces of the glass.
Position flowers on bottom piece, position top piece.
At this point you just need to solder the tinned edges together. You should
not need additional flux.
As long as you are careful and don't melt through the inside should be fine.

As I said this has worked for me in the past.

  Vic M.
  vmodino@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodino@ctronsoft.com> 
 

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:43 PM
		To:	Modiano, Victor
		Cc:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE: wildflowers

		>I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you
don't need to
		>use flux at all.
		>Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great.
Should work with a
		>"wildflower sandwich".

		If you're doing production for a craft show, why not buy a
roll or two of
		silvered foil.  It's a little more expensive, but I've found
it's work it
		when I add up the cost of the time I spend fluxing, tinning
and then
		cleaning off the flux!!!

		C.

		Carol Swann
		Synergy Glass & Creative
		http://www.igga.org/synergy
		seaspray@island.net

		check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
		http://come.to/The_E-Tour
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:48:55 1999
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To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
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Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:43:29 -0700
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>I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you don't need to
>use flux at all.
>Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great. Should work with a
>"wildflower sandwich".

If you're doing production for a craft show, why not buy a roll or two of
silvered foil.  It's a little more expensive, but I've found it's work it
when I add up the cost of the time I spend fluxing, tinning and then
cleaning off the flux!!!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:58:41 1999
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From: Creativeco <creativeco@pdq.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:03:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.9312.0>
Precedence: bulk

I'm currently working on a mosaic bird bath and I'm not too crazy about
my glue decision. Right now I'm using Liquid Nails and it's kinda a pain
to work with...too thick. Does anyone have any suggestions as to other
glues you have had luck with on similar (i.e. underwater or exposed to
the elements) projects? I was planning on using tile grout like one
would use in a shower. Any grout ideas or suggestions would also be
appreciated.

Thanks
Margo



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 14:59:36 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Artist Videos wanted
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:26:38 -0400
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Hi gang.  There is a request from Susie Beiman of the craft
store, Details in Indianapolis, IN.  She is looking to purchase
video tapes of artists at work to be played in her store.  For
more information call 317-571-9977 or fax 317-571-1514.
This request was originally published in the "Philadelphia
Market Daily News" distributed at the recent Buyers Market
of American Craft wholesale show in Philadelphia.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 15:38:17 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:12:04 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.14124.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.9332.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Bob, et. al.

        I had occasion to look up the differences between boiled
(refined) and raw linseed oil.   The difference is in drying time.  Raw
takes many times longer to dry.  So refined is better.  I agree that a
higher proportion of oil  in the mixture is better.  I adapted your
recipe for cement by adding much more whiting to get a less fluid
mixture.  You have now set me to thinking that maybe it would be better
to reduce the turpentine content rather than just increasing the whiting
content.

I look forward to others' comments and experiences.

Steve

In message <1999Aug2.9332.0@?>, Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
writes
>I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
>for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
>liquid to make the putty flow like honey.
>
>Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
>for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
>starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?
>
>I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
>standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
>clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?
>
>Bob
>
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 15:50:50 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:44:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.134448.0>
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Message text written by Creativeco
>I'm currently working on a mosaic bird bath and I'm not too crazy about
my glue decision. Right now I'm using Liquid Nails and it's kinda a pain
to work with...too thick. Does anyone have any suggestions as to other
glues you have had luck with on similar (i.e. underwater or exposed to
the elements) projects? I was planning on using tile grout like one
would use in a shower. Any grout ideas or suggestions would also be
appreciated.<

I use GE Silicon II clear for all my mosaic work, including a full line
of mosaic'ed birdbaths I sell throughout the country.  It dried pretty
quickly and remains flexible, as well as being mildew-resistant and
waterproof.

For grout I use powdered non-sanded tile grout.  Many colors now
availble.  Some folk use the sanded stuff.  Either way, you're OK.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 18:21:21 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:07:11 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.10711.0>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
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A note regarding health and turpentine.

 Over the last several years many of my woodworking magazines have carried
articles noting that turpentine often contains several chemicals hazardous
to your health.  Many people apparently think that since turpentine is
derived from natural tree extracts it is safe.  However depending on the
refining process, most brands of turpentine contain significant levels of
chemicals which have been linked to cancer and nervous disorders.

 All of these articles agreed that the purest mineral spirits available
(i.e.
those usually listed as low-odor mineral spirits), were a much safer
alternative as a solvent.  All the recent wood finishing recipes using
linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor mineral spirits for
this reason.

 I suspect that the same would hold true for stained glass putty recipes.
People might want to consider replacing the turpentine in the mixture with
low-odor mineral spirits for the sake of their health.

Note: No organic solvent is 100% safe. I would also recommend gloves and a
well ventilated work space no matter what you are using as a solvent to thin
the linseed oil.

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
 To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
 Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:32 AM
 Subject: Re: Putty questions


> <snip>...

 >
> The evaporation of turpentine (which functions as a solvent, or diluent)
> will thicken the putty, but the evaporation will not harden up the
> putty.  The turpentine basically thins out the boiled linseed oil so you
> can mix it better, more completely that is, with the whiting with a lot
> less effort.
>
> ...<snip>


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 19:24:22 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 07:12:22 
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Wow! what a description !! I've used boiled linseed oil (didn't like the raw) and now I 
know why! 

I add the oil to an existing glazing compound (after 10 yrs of doing it by hand, I found the 
'paint mixer' thingie you put in a drill) till it's like natural peanut butter.. and it works great! 

Candy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 20:23:51 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: laurie good <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
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Laurie:  Flowers pressed for glass do great but fade real easy unless you
take precautions.  I have been tempted to try using Deka paint and
enhancing their color before placing them between glass.  Some will tell
you that if you use vermiculite and the microwave you can "set" the color
but I would really like to hear from someothers who have done this.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 20:46:11 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
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Anyone who uses Boiled Lindseed Oil should be aware that one of the
hazards is spontaneous combustion.  NEVER leave rags or paper with the
boiled linseed oil around your house.  Throwing rags or paper that have
linseed oil on them in the garbage can cause a fire.  I'm sure most of you
know this but one of my friends found it out the hard way.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 21:33:05 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:45:18 -0700
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Tim Atwood writes, in part:>>All of these articles agreed that the purest
mineral spirits available
(i.e.
those usually listed as low-odor mineral spirits), were a much safer
alternative as a solvent.  All the recent wood finishing recipes using
linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor mineral spirits for
this reason.<<

Thanks for your post.

Turpentine does not seem to be sold in California anymore. There is a
turpentine substitute called turpentane sold that seems to do about the same
as turpentine. The warnings on the turpentane can do not lead one to think
it is very good to have around either.

I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
safer than ordinary mineral spirits. Being a doubting person at heart I
wonder if the lack of smell has fooled people into thinking the odorless is
safer. Lack of smell does not in itself prove much as far as safety goes. In
fact, there is a safety drawback in-as-much as there is no odor warning for
spills and soaked flammable rags.  I don't mind paying four times as much
for the odorless but would like to know it is a reasonable health measure
and not another crock to push a new product.

Bob


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 07:05:59 1999
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From: "Paula Rubin" <prubin1@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Flux help needed please
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:22:21 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I've been working in stained glass for a short period and I am confused =
about what kind of flux to use and what is the difference between flux =
with zinc chloride and without and acid as well. Can I get some advice =
as to which brands people like and the differences? The wisdom is very =
much appreciated.
TIA
Paula Rubin
So. Florida


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I've been working in stained glass for a short =
period and I am=20
confused about what kind of flux to use and what is the difference =
between flux=20
with zinc chloride and without and acid as well. Can I get some advice =
as to=20
which brands people like and the differences? The wisdom is very much=20
appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>TIA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Paula Rubin</DIV>
<DIV>So. Florida</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0--

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 07:29:03 1999
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Subject: Sea Shells
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:29:56 -0500
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Has anyone had any experience soldering sea shells?
Thank you,
David
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 08:10:49 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
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Subject: Re: Sea Shells
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:42:13 -0400
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Charles R. Clark wrote:
> 
> Has anyone had any experience soldering sea shells?
> Thank you,
> David
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soldering sea shells at the sea shore? - the hardest part is foiling.
use a thin foil and wrap it as you would glass. carefully rub it and
your done, though it can be real difficult to do dpending on the shell
you use. 

if you put a clear laquer on the shell, - do it at the end, otherwise it
may melt and turn kind of brown. however if the shell is porous then the
flux and patina may get trapped, then you would have to cover it with
soemthing.

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 08:40:56 1999
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From: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:03:12 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEDE58.2E13F220
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Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Dawn

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEDE58.2E13F220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi everyone!&nbsp; Just wondering - has anyone had =
any luck=20
applying patina on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it =
just=20
went yecch... kind of greyish black.&nbsp; Looked awful.&nbsp; I thought =
at=20
first it was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free =
solder on=20
that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.&nbsp;=20
*Sigh*</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks for any advice you can give.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dawn</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 09:44:53 1999
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From: seaspray@island.net
To: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:21:59 -0700
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>
>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>
>Dawn

Hi Dawn,

Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
are very harsh.

Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
the piece turned out fine!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 10:11:56 1999
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Subject: Fwd: Pattern Index on Warner Criv
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:48:34 EDT
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Ooops,
forgot to click "reply all"

Richard

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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:47:04 EDT
Subject: Re: Pattern Index on Warner Criv
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Dianne,

I'm not affiliated with them either, but one could not ask for a better 
example of how to do business right. I've owned a number of businesses over 
the years, and in this day of generally shoddy service, and slam bam, thank 
you m'am, the W/C company is a blessed relief. I've seldom seen an enterprise 
so dedicated to growing by "giving back" to the marketplace.


Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, CA

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 10:40:47 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:04:40 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.9440.0>
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huh? the chemicals in patina are harsh, but they all go away when you wash
the piece, except for the copper, which is plated out onto the lead.

the reason it didn't work is that the patina plates copper on lead in a
chemical reaction, and lead-free solder doesn't have any lead in it.

btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't good
to ingest.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:22 AM
To: Dawn Marie Barker
Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder


	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>
>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>
>Dawn

Hi Dawn,

Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
are very harsh.

Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
the piece turned out fine!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 13:10:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:58:50 -0400
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Message text written by "Spitzer, Charlie"
>
btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are
lots
of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't
good
to ingest.<

But, I would suspect it's still better to use lead-free solder
on that cute stained glass napkin holder than regular.  I
pointed that out to the owner of a local stained glass =

retailer who sells these types of gift items.... the response
was they'd never had a  customer complain about it.  <sigh>

Still shaking my head over that one,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 14:42:33 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:27:05 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.7275.0>
References: <<001701bede2b$ccd7b040$a8e5fdd1@default>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

OK, I went back and looked at a couple of the articles.  Because rules and
labeling criteria vary between countries, provinces and states it is very
difficult to tell what a particular product contains.  In both the U.S. and
Canada you can sometimes get an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from the
manufacturer.  Without the MSDS, it is pretty difficult to know what is in
the products sold under the very general labels of "mineral spirits" or
"paint thinner" or "turpentine".

The article which talked most about the "low-odor" thing was using it as a
general rule of thumb if you did not have an MSDS.  In general most of the
odor in both mineral spirits (paint thinner) and turpentine comes from
residual "tars" and volatile esters (acidified methanol compounds mostly)
left from the refining process.  These compounds tend to be some of the most
dangerous to peoples health.  The idea is that a low odor product will have
fewer of these compounds and as a general rule will be safer.

However, the same article stated this was only a general rule and that,
similar to what you pointed out, a low odor product could contain dangerous
chemicals.  The only way to be fairly sure is to get the MSDS or your
country's equivalent.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Putty questions


<snip>..
> I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
> safer than ordinary mineral spirits. ...<snip>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:12:42 1999
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From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: sea shells
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.74644.0>
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I agree with Mike, that using the thinnest foil available and just
barely on the "top" edge (actually, if the shell is small, uncentering
the foil so that most of it remains on the back of the shell).

I recently finished some boxes with shells on the top,
and found that tinning each shell individually before final soldering
in place was essential as you could see through the glass when the box
lid was opened, and it made the irregularities of the shells easier to
deal with once they were tinned.

Barbara Elmore



_____________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:41:55 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "barbara elmore" <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>,
Subject: Re: sea shells
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:30:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.14307.0>
Precedence: bulk

Good idea Barbara.  I used to do a lot of diving when I lived overseas and
have a big shell collection.  I am going to incorporate some shells into my
boxes sometime soon.
I am going do like you say and foil and tin first.
Thanks,
Linda Jo

-----Original Message-----
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:17 PM
Subject: sea shells


>
>I agree with Mike, that using the thinnest foil available and just
>barely on the "top" edge (actually, if the shell is small, uncentering
>the foil so that most of it remains on the back of the shell).
>
>I recently finished some boxes with shells on the top,
>and found that tinning each shell individually before final soldering
>in place was essential as you could see through the glass when the box
>lid was opened, and it made the irregularities of the shells easier to
>deal with once they were tinned.
>
>Barbara Elmore
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
>
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:57:07 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Intrastar" <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Lead/Putty Steps
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:08:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.14819.0>
Precedence: bulk

I am wondering if I am doing lead finishing correctly. I am sending this to
two lists, so please forgive the repeat.

The following steps are after window/panel is constructed, including zinc
framing:

1. Apply cement or putty with small-ish brush, rubbing the material under
all cames and zinc.
2. Spread whiting over entire panel.
3. Using fid in an upright angle, running along every edge.
4. Turning over and repeating on opposite side.
5. After 15-20 minutes (in Florida heat), panel remaining flat, using larger
brush in a circular motion, removing material from glass, checking to see
that it is also cleaned off on lead and zinc edges.
6. Allowing to harden for 3 days in a flat position, then cleaning and
waxing panel.

I am using putty or cement (can't remember exactly what it's called) that is
pre-made and black. I use an egg beater attached to drill to mix it
thoroughly.

There... does that sound like I am doing it correctly?
Thank you..
Mary



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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 16:10:17 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "Beveler4@aol.com" <Beveler4@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 99 04:43:51 
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Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:58:14 -0700, Bob Duchesneau wrote:

>>>). Kokomo
>also plans on getting into the fusing market they are going to send me the
>info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the
>catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what
>the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)<<
>
>Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success with
>it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.
>
>Bob

REALLY!!!! I haven't tried Kokomo in the kiln yet.. guess what I'm going to try this 
weekend? so it's a 96, Bob?

I haven't tried the new fusible clear from Spectrum yet.. it works well?
Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 17:40:26 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:00:35 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.10035.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>>Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success
with
>it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.
>
>Bob

REALLY!!!! I haven't tried Kokomo in the kiln yet.. guess what I'm going to
try this
weekend? so it's a 96, Bob?

I haven't tried the new fusible clear from Spectrum yet.. it works well?
Candy<<

Yes, Kokomo acts very much like Spectrum in the kiln. I have tried Kokomo
cathedrals with success when mixed with Spectrum so it must be very close to
96 in COE. Like Spectrum the Kokomo tends to divit at higher fusing
temperatures.

The new fusible clear has great resistance to divit. I have yet to use it as
an overlay covering because much of my fusing has pattern relief. I do not
fuse flat when I can have a little relief. Might do that if I made plates
for eating off of. Display plates are best IMO when the design has relief. I
routinely use anti divit spray with and without lead as the project calls
for.

Bob


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 18:14:53 1999
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From: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:38:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.133821.0>
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I am looking at making airline reservations to go to Glass Visions.  For
those of you who have been their before I would like some input.  If I
fly in Saturday morning, arriving around noon, will I have ample time to
see and do everything?  Also any recommendations for nearby hotels?


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 19:46:37 1999
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:35:58 -0400
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From:	"Bob Duchesneau", INTERNET:bobdu@prodigy.net
To:	"Tim Atwood", INTERNET:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca
"Bungi", INTERNET:glass@bungi.com

Date:	8/3/99  9:42 PM

RE:Re: Putty questions

Tim Atwood writes, in part:>>All of these articles agreed that the purest
mineral spirits available (i.e. those usually listed as low-odor mineral 
spirits), were a much safer alternative as a solvent. All the recent wood 
finishing recipes using linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor
mineral spirits for this reason.<<

Thanks for your post.

> Turpentine does not seem to be sold in California anymore. <

It's just hard to find.  It lurks.

> There is a turpentine substitute called turpentane sold that seems to do 
> about the same as turpentine. <

Whether it is "turpentane," "turpenoid,"  "turpenoid natural," or whatever, 
these names don't have any meaning.  Without the MSDS, you wont have a clue 
what they actually are.

> The warnings on the turpentane can do not lead one to think it is very good 
> to have around either. <

There are no "safe" solvents.  But some of the turpentine substitutes such 
as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.  Get the 
MSDS.


> I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
> safer than ordinary mineral spirits. <


**Mineral spirits is a petroleum distillate of a particular boiling range 
that has all the hundreds of volatile petroleum chemicals in it.  There are 
all the aliphatics (that is straight and branched chain hydrocarbons) and all 
the aromatics (ring hydrocarbons such as toluene, xylene, ethylbenzene, etc.)


**Odorless mineral spirits *should* be regular mineral spirits with the 
aromatic hydrocarbons removed.  These are not only the most toxic group, they 
happen to have the strongest odor--hence the "odorless" name.


> Being a doubting person at heart I wonder if the lack of smell has fooled 
> people into thinking the odorless is safer. Lack of smell does not in itself
> prove much as far as safety goes. In fact, there is a safety drawback
> in-as-much as there is no odor warning for spills and soaked flammable 
> rags.<

Very good thinking!  However, if you really can't smell odorless mineral 
spirits, go to a neurologist because something is wrong with either your 
brain or the odor receptors in you nose.


> I don't mind paying four times as much for the odorless but would like to 
> know it is a reasonable health measure and not another crock to push a new 
> product. <


Here's how to find out if the stuff is a crock or not.  Get the MSDS and look 
at the second section where the TLVs and PELs are listed.  A really good 
quality odorless mineral spirits or odorless paint thinner should have a TLV 
and a PEL of 300 ppm.  A more toxic product will have a TLV and PEL of 100 
ppm or lower.  They line up like this:


PRODUCT.................................................TLV-TWA
Good quality odorless mineral spirits/thinner, etc......300 ppm
Poor quality odorless product or plain mineral spirits..100 ppm
Turpentine..............................................100 ppm
d-limonene, citrus turp..................................30 ppm*


*this standard is actually set by the American Industrial Hygiene Association 
and is not technically a TLV.  But its meaning is the same.

Hope this helps.


Monona
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Subject: copper tree
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:55:28 EDT
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Hi everyone--it has been a while (4 months computer was down but have it back 
today after rebuilding it completely thanks to WV thunderstorms / lightening 
whnich destroyed 3 modems in three days and the cpu/ motherboard HD etc.)

Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.  New 
at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over glass 
or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a 
filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.  
Shirley G.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 22:23:42 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:03:33 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.21333.0>
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>Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants
a
>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
New
>at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
glass
>or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a
>filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance


I saw this in a book I have...they did the 'tree' up the side of and top of
a box.  I have been meaning to try this technique...but alas..time.

How it was presented was using copper foil..suitably overlapped...and
trimmed where necessary with a razor knife....they then used textured solder
effects for completion.  The pictures are quite pretty.

BTW:  The book is "Stained Glass, Projects and Patterns" by George Shannon
and Pat Torlen, A Sterling/Tomas book, ISBN: 1-895569-40-0

Take Care,
Soraya

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 05:38:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 08:26:28 -0400
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Sorry to post a ng but have lost Dawn Barker's new address. If you see
this Dawn could you let me know. Thanks, Rita

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please subscibe me at this new address  
glassshack@zoomtown.com
e-mail: glassshack@zoomtown.com@zoomtown.com


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Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 12:21:25 AM, SGriffiSBG@aol.com writes:

>I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
> New at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
>glass or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act 
as
>a filler.

I've never done this myself, but if I did I think I'd be more inclined to get 
a thin sheet of copper (about the thickness of the aluminum flashing you can 
get at Home Depot et al.) and cut the tree shape out of that rather than 
trying to do a large area in foil overlay, which you'd then have to tin and 
re-patina in copper (and we all know how persnickety copper patina can be!). 
You can hammer the copper sheet to give it some texture, and back it with 
plain glass.

Just my 2 copper cents' worth.........


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 06:39:02 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:51:00 EDT
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In a message dated 8/4/99 1:42:14 PM, Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com writes:

>btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
>of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't
>good to ingest.

I don't think the tin will hurt you (unless you're in the habit of eating 
soup cans), but the antimony's a real bastard.


Sparks
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: 75054.2542@compuserve.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:51:02 EDT
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In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona) 
writes:

>There are no "safe" solvents.  But some of the turpentine substitutes such
>as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there 
who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from 
oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff 
around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones 
in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were 
evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.


Sparks
    who was surprised the other day to see an insecticide spray
    containing mint oil as the active ingredient - it was labeled
    "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that

    =8-O
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Get together after Glass Visions?
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:53:50 -0000
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Anybody interested in getting together after Glass Visions on Saturday 
for dinner/drinks? 

E-mail me privately and I'll make reservations tomorrow (Friday). Thanks.

Suzanne


suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 07:28:27 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:59:52 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
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SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone--it has been a while (4 months computer was down but have it back
> today after rebuilding it completely thanks to WV thunderstorms / lightening
> whnich destroyed 3 modems in three days and the cpu/ motherboard HD etc.)
> 
> Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants a
> copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.  New
> at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over glass
> or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a
> filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
> Shirley G.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would do 1 of 3 things:

1. use the foil overlay from a sheet. not the thin copper foil tape
sheet though, it may rip. plus the copper sheet may act as a better heat
sink so the glass may not crack.


2. make a copper wire tree. twist together a small gauge soft naked
solid wire strands together to form a tree. it should be soldered then
patinaed, or it may fall apart. 

3. make a glass tree, cover it with foil. solder and patina. the
advantage would be that it would fit in the space (unless you do it as
an overlay). and if the glass cracks it would'nt matter because it's
covered in foil.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 07:37:28 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:28:31 -0600
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Also, you could twist pre-tinned wire and drop decoraive solder on the
twisted tree to give it body ( patina ) and then attach the wire to the
solder lines of your design.   The look is similar to the oriental art of
twisted wire trees with jade leaves hanging from them.  This would give your
tree a  three dimensional look and your project some great texture.   If you
use a foil overlay  be careful with overheating the glass.  This kinda of
work takes a lot of patience.  Don't work in any one area too long.  From
the voice of one who had some mysterious cracks show up after the soldering
was done on an overlay!!  It happened quicker than I thought and not while I
was actually soldering, but the next day.  Spooky ol' glass.  claudette

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 09:40:54 1999
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To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:37:25 -0700
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Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona)
> writes:
> 
> >There are no "safe" solvents.  



uhhhhhhhhh ... yes and no.  Water is a solvent too donchano.  Too many
people think of "solvents" as being synonymous with "organic solvents"
... which is not the case.  A solvent is a liquid that dissolves a solid
... thats all, its a general concept.  Water dissolves salt (and many
other substances) and is a solvent.  I'll try to carve out some time
later today and write a little on this.



> >But some of the turpentine substitutes such
> >as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there
> who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from
> oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff
> around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones
> in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were
> evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.


Correct, so far as it goes anyway ... maybe I'll elucidate on this later
today, including some stuff on what turpentine (natural and commercial)
and turpentine substitutes actually are.

 
> Sparks
>     who was surprised the other day to see an insecticide spray
>     containing mint oil as the active ingredient - it was labeled
>     "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that


Probably not terribly effective as an insecticide if mint oil is the
"active ingredient".  Certainly the pyrethrins have mint oils beat by a
country mile as insecticides.  And mint oil also ATTRACTS insects btw. 
Sounds like a good commercial ploy though ... spray for ants, kill the
ants that are innudated with the stuff (probably more like drowning the
ants by clogging up their breathing pores with oil than anything else),
and the mild odor thats left attracts MORE ants, which causes you to use
the "insecticide" again, and then to buy more "poison-free insecticide"
... and so on.  Contradiction in terms too : Poison-free and insecticide
are antonyms, duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  Sounds good though, and given
today's anti-intellectual and anti-scientific atmosphere that produces
so many people incapable of critical thinking and ignorant of virtually
all basic science and math (though they DO know how to "get along" with
others), its probably pretty effective marketing.  

Reminds me of those "aphrodesiac placebos" <smile>.

Gotta keep movin', its Thursday and the natives are getting restless
.... Bob
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To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> >>In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
> of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
> harden up, use raw linseed oil.<<
> 
> Thanks Bob for a great discussion of the topic. The above raises a question
> in my mind. What about mixing about 10% raw linseed oil with the boiled
> linseed oil to increase the life of the putty? Is there a chance that this
> could increase the life of the unrestored window by a number of years?


It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend. 
To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
you're finished and continue the tests.  Eventually they'll all fail and
you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
how to do this exactly if you're really interested.



> My experience is that failure of the putty is the first major step in the
> breakdown of a stained glass window. Delaying this failure point is in the
> clients best interest and a potential brag point for my studio. I already
> guarantee that I will not be around for the normal failure of the window.

You're a conscientious fellow Bob ... this is clear ... don't try to
cover it up with commercial reasons <smile>.

Regards .... Bob
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 10:40:07 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:16:48 -0700
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Further reading on the solvent safety question has lead me to correct some
of the things I said in regards to low-odor versus standard mineral spirits.

A different article which actually listed dangerous chemicals in commonly
used woodworking products seemed to contradict the first.  It would indicate
that the main difference between low-odor and standard paint thinner was
fewer of certain high vapor pressure (gasses off into the air quicker)
chemicals.  The health differences were not stated.  It is quite possible
Bob is correct that much of it is the industry trying to sell a more
expensive niche product.  However, for me personally I do not like the smell
of regular paint thinner and the extra cost of the low-odor is a very small
part of the cost of most stained glass projects done in my shop.  So I guess
I will continue using it.

Their was general consensus on the dangers of standard grades of turpentine
though.  Standard grades of turpentine - i.e. those that are generally sold
in hardware stores and are in the price range of other solvents - are
derived from carbonized pine wood chips.  The carbonization process produces
a whole range of partial combustion products.  The chemicals and heat used
in the later extraction and distillation processes combine to form an even
wider range of chemicals.  Many of these chemicals have been linked to
health problems.  It is also nearly impossible to know what exactly is in a
particular manufacturer's turpentine because the makeup of the chemicals
varies with carbonization temperature, wood chip moisture content,
extraction chemicals, etc.

The above does not apply to the premium grades of turpentine sometimes
available at art supply stores at a much higher price.  These turpentines
are extracted from the oleo-resins of the pitch of certain trees.  Since
there is no carbonization process, many of the hazardous chemicals are
apparently not formed.  These premium turpentines also contain significantly
more of the oleo-resins which are prized by painters to improve the
plasticity of their paints.  In other words, these premium grades of
turpentine are really a totally different product than the standard grades.

Note: from my reading I do not think standard grades of turpentine contain
enough oleo-resins to make a difference in the plasticity of the linseed oil
polymers.  Someone might want to investigate this though.



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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:25:06 -0700
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Must be something gummed up with the mail delivery system.  I just got
this one ... and I can see I don't need to write anything more on this
subject.

Thanks Monona <G>.

Regards ..... Bob
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:40:25 -0700
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The other Bob writes: <<snip>>

>>It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend.
To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
you're finished and continue the tests.<<

I just happen to have a 12" X 12" X 8.5" kiln that I can devote to this test
for the next month or more.

>>Eventually they'll all fail and
you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
how to do this exactly if you're really interested.<<

Lets go for it! YOU devise the test and I will carry it out. Not sure how
failure is to be determined but I leave that to you. Might the tests include
the non use of turtentine or its substitutes also.

This is exciting. Just think, this little test MIGHT turn out to be an
indicator to improving putty life by 20 or 30%. A very worthwhile thing.

Bob




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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:54:10 -0700
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There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
your bets!

Steve
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:06:47 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:26:36 -0700
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Bob,

Don't go in with apriori's.  There might be no difference.  There might
be 10% difference.  There might be 6,000% difference.  It could be that
the mixture is worse than either one alone.  We don't know.  Thats why
one does the experiment, to find out.  I've been doing experiments using
the scientific method since my age was measured in single digits, and
the one thing I'm sure of is : go in with an open mind, that way you see
what's actually there.  Theory guides, experiment decides.  In spite of
that, like Pasteur said, In the field of science, chance favorizes the
prepared mind.  We kinda sorta know what to expect, but lets see how it
goes.

So ... probably be best to include some commercial putties in the
testing, including those made with elastomers.  We need those for
comparison.

Also, basically the idea behind accellerated testing is to compress
time.  One month = 1 year .. or whatever.  I do not know how long this
will take.  This test could require 2 days, or it could require several
months.  There are no published previous accellerated tests of this type
that I know about that would give an indication.  I'll try to look into
that if for no other reason than this might have been done before,
probably has been in fact ... the question is : where is the info? 
Might be some ASTM stuff on putties, I'll start there.

We need to find a method of determining the failure point.  Something we
can measure that indicates failure anyway.  Change of color, putty
begins to crumble ... I dunno ... something ... some property of the
putty that indicates failure.  Perhaps someone more involved in
restoration can write us something on this.

Tu/Th are difficult to get anything done ... gotta scoot ... Bob (de
udder Bob <G>)





Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> The other Bob writes: <<snip>>
> 
> >>It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend.
> To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
> steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
> easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
> solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
> amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
> 100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
> joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
> them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
> need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
> you're finished and continue the tests.<<
> 
> I just happen to have a 12" X 12" X 8.5" kiln that I can devote to this test
> for the next month or more.
> 
> >>Eventually they'll all fail and
> you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
> the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
> Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
> dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
> how to do this exactly if you're really interested.<<
> 
> Lets go for it! YOU devise the test and I will carry it out. Not sure how
> failure is to be determined but I leave that to you. Might the tests include
> the non use of turtentine or its substitutes also.
> 
> This is exciting. Just think, this little test MIGHT turn out to be an
> indicator to improving putty life by 20 or 30%. A very worthwhile thing.
> 
> Bob
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:14:46 1999
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From: seaspray@island.net
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0700
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>There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
>California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
>been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
>be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
>your bets!

What's the prize????

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:31:23 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Educational Question
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:50:42 -0700
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Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
program versus a craft/vocational school?

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:44:42 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "Steve Wernecke" <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>,
Subject: Re: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:11:01 -0400
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Steve,
How great that "E" got to see the bay area, and southern peninsula.   I am
sure she had a wonderful time.  Lets see, could she be heading to Colorado
now?
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:48 PM
Subject: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest


>There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
>California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
>been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
>be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
>your bets!
>
>Steve
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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Full-name: Hi imLaura
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:57:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Educational Question
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Hi Pam,

I don't think you can get a Bachelor's Degree in stained glass, but you can 
in Crafts and Fine Arts. I go to Kutztown University here in PA, and our 
crafts program leads to a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Crafts or in Studio Art. 
Anyway, both programs require an extensive arts background - history, 
drawing, 2 and 3 dimen. design, painting, printmaking, photog, life drawing, 
sculpture, watercolor, crafts survey - are all basic required courses for 
these degrees, and this doesn't include your concentration. You then choose 
your concentration from things like woodworking, fibers, ceramics, 
metalworking. It's a great program, and it is hard to get into - you have to 
have a pretty extensive portfolio as an entering freshman. I don't know if 
this helps at all, but if anyone has questions about KU you can email me at

HiimLaura@aol.com
or
poty6183@kutztown.edu 

Laura

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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Bobs was: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:26:59 -0600
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>
> Tu/Th are difficult to get anything done ... gotta scoot ... Bob (de
> udder Bob <G>)
>
>

Now we've got a "Bob de" and a "Bob Du"--easy to keep straight! And here
I've been lumping them together as "Bob--the keeper of all knowledge")


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 16:05:03 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:34:59 -0400
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It is my understanding that Towson University here in Maryland includes
Stained Glass as an elective portion of their Art program, as we have had
several of their art students in our store to purchase supplies.  We also
had one out of state student take a course with us and by writing up what
she did and presenting her completed project to her instructor she recieved
course credits.

Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007
keane@heesun.com
www.heesun.com

At 01:50 PM 8/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
>program versus a craft/vocational school?
>
>Pam
>
>--
>
>Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Moswood Mountain Ltd.
>http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com
>
>
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
> program versus a craft/vocational school?

Louisiana State University used to have such a program, but when the 
professor retired, so did the program, alas. Other than that? Not as 
far as I know. US-wise, that is.  There are several degree programs 
in Europe.

Albert
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: smell of Patina?
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:50:11 -0500
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There is a smell I find particularly noxious. (that is a word isnt it?)
I use a green scrubby sponge...to scrub my work before applying
patina...it always take on that smell...so I change them frequently...
and right now my hands smell like it.

Yes...I always wear gloves when I patina...but frequently have tiny
holes in the fingers, because I wear then when Im soldering, then wash
my hands with the gloves on...then patina.

It is hard to find small enough gloves so the fingers are *always* too
long and I *always* end up burning a hole in the tip of at least one
finger of the left handed glove.

I HATE that smell.  Im so tempted to go rub my hands in garlic.  Anyone
know what smell it is???

Is it the patina?  Today....this feels like a nasty habit! ;o) (but Ive
gotten a lot done)
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 17:46:57 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: smell of Patina?
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 20:26:50 -0400
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Precedence: bulk

Suzanne Gunn wrote:
> 
> There is a smell I find particularly noxious. (that is a word isnt it?)
> I use a green scrubby sponge...to scrub my work before applying
> patina...it always take on that smell...so I change them frequently...
> and right now my hands smell like it.
> 
> Yes...I always wear gloves when I patina...but frequently have tiny
> holes in the fingers, because I wear then when Im soldering, then wash
> my hands with the gloves on...then patina.
> 
> It is hard to find small enough gloves so the fingers are *always* too
> long and I *always* end up burning a hole in the tip of at least one
> finger of the left handed glove.
> 
> I HATE that smell.  Im so tempted to go rub my hands in garlic.  Anyone
> know what smell it is???
> 
> Is it the patina?  Today....this feels like a nasty habit! ;o) (but Ive
> gotten a lot done)
> --
> Suzanne
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Choosing is only difficult
> for those with imagination
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i found that peweter jax patina really reaks. i used it on a
kaleidoscope - big mistake. i've always used one of the orange cleaners
to remove or at least mask the smell.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 19:46:08 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 99 08:17:34 
Message-ID: <199908060224.UAA14913@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT, Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 8/5/99 12:21:25 AM, SGriffiSBG@aol.com writes:
>
>>I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
>>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
>> New at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
>>glass or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act 
>as
>>a filler.
>
>I've never done this myself, but if I did I think I'd be more inclined to get 
>a thin sheet of copper (about the thickness of the aluminum flashing you can 
>get at Home Depot et al.) and cut the tree shape out of that rather than 
>trying to do a large area in foil overlay, which you'd then have to tin and 
>re-patina in copper (and we all know how persnickety copper patina can be!). 
>You can hammer the copper sheet to give it some texture, and back it with 
>plain glass.
>
>Just my 2 copper cents' worth.........
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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>
and I hear it cuts best with a propane torch, tho I personally haven't tried this (yet)

Candy

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 20:15:05 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:53:46 -0000
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Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good 
idea so we can all find each other! 

Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That 
would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.

Suzanne


suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 20:44:36 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>,
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:23:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.192340.0>
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Suzanne,
I am getting more depressed by the minute that I am up there between E-tour
and GV.
Grrrrrrrrr...  Oh well next year for Glass Visions I guess.

Anyone that knows the Md./Baltimore area.  I am going to drive up to
Allentown from Aberdeen and I got a map at AAA today and it looks like I
can't get there directly.
North on I-95 to south of Philly and then head north west to Allentown on
468 or something like that, I don't have the map in front of me, but does
that sound about right?  I printed out Meridith's instructions and figure I
will head that way and call if I can't find them.

Thanks.  Oh yea Patrick, what is the crabcake place that I just have to go
to?  I refuse to even leave the Baltimore area without having some
crabcakes.
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: suzy@comcat.com <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: glass bungi line <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:18 PM
Subject: Glass Visions


>Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
>idea so we can all find each other!
>
>Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
>would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
>
>Suzanne
>
>
>suzanne albright
>suzy@comcat.com
>
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 21:14:42 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:43:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.174357.0>
References: <<199908060251.WAA27025@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

I'll be the one in the red leather mini skirt, and cowboy boots and
matching cowboy hat! lol...

                     -------NOT---------

Tulsa Suzanne



"suzy@comcat.com" wrote:
> 
> Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
> idea so we can all find each other!
> 
> Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
> would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
> 
> Suzanne
> 
> suzanne albright
> suzy@comcat.com
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 21:46:34 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:18:41 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.141841.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.14154.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
drivers' side window of the car.

Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.

Many cultures that still use naturally dyed silks and woolens for clothing,
tapestries, and rugs, but caring for these products requires careful protection
from exposure to natural sunlight and/or storage in non-oxidizing atmospheric
conditions.

For example, if anyone has been to the Library of Congress in Washington DC
they've seen one of the oldest known copies of the Declaration of Independence,
in it's green-tinted plexiglass box which is filled with Nitrogen gas, and the
whole
thing is on a hydrolically operated lifting mechanism that raises and lowers it
into
and out of a security vault that is also charged with Nitrogen when the document
"goes to bed" at night.

"Permanent" coloring as we know it today was devised when analine dyes were
invented.  They come from metallic oxides, and require acids and heat to set.
"RIT" dye that you use in your washing machine is an example.  The instructions
require a "hot" water setting and the addition of vinegar at some point in the
process.

Best regards,
Cheryl



NEICYDENN@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/3/1999 3:05:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
> lauriegood@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put
> some
>  wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
>  some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
> >>
>
> Laurie,
>
> I just finished a small teddy bear sun catcher for my daughter. She pressed
> some flowers from the garden, I put them between 2 clear pieces of glass in
> the tummy section of the bear. The flowers I used were all the same thickness
> (thin) so when sandwiched between the glass they don't move, then just foil
> together. I think if you were to use thick flowers, like daisies, it might
> not work. As far as adhesives, maybe a spray on one wouldn't show through the
> glass.
>
> Good luck,
> Denise
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 05:29:45 1999
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 07:55:25 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990806075525.006c7998@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
References: <<1999Aug4.9440.0>>
Precedence: bulk

And to add to that....... copper is not food safe either.  

Barbara

At 01:04 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
>huh? the chemicals in patina are harsh, but they all go away when you wash
>the piece, except for the copper, which is plated out onto the lead.
>
>the reason it didn't work is that the patina plates copper on lead in a
>chemical reaction, and lead-free solder doesn't have any lead in it.
>
>btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
>of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't good
>to ingest.
>
>regards,
>charlie
>phx, az
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:22 AM
>To: Dawn Marie Barker
>Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder
>
>
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>>
>>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>>
>>Dawn
>
>Hi Dawn,
>
>Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
>piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
>are very harsh.
>
>Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
>that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
>or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
>the piece turned out fine!
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 06:12:42 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: rrkerr@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:38:21 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 12:34:20 PM, rrkerr@pacbell.net writes:

>
>
>Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona)
>> writes:
>> 
>> >There are no "safe" solvents.  
>
>uhhhhhhhhh ... yes and no.  Water is a solvent too donchano.

For the record...... *I* didn't say that. I was just quoting. :-)

>> >But some of the turpentine substitutes such
>> >as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.
>> 
>> Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there
>> who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from
>> oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff
>> around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones
>> in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were
>> evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.
>
>
>Correct, so far as it goes anyway ... 

Admittedly an oversimplification (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) on my part, but 
prompted by a lot of frustrating experience with that segment of the 
population that thinks "natural=good" and "processed/refined=bad" and doesn't 
go any further with the word "organic" than "it came from a farm that doesn't 
use pesticides."

>>     "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that
>
>Probably not terribly effective as an insecticide if mint oil is the
>"active ingredient".  Certainly the pyrethrins have mint oils beat by a
>country mile as insecticides.  And mint oil also ATTRACTS insects btw.

Yeah, that's what had me scratching my head! (When I wasn't trying 
desperately not to laugh hysterically.........)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 06:23:37 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: andor@ilnk.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:38:15 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 11:45:55 PM, andor@ilnk.com writes:

>North on I-95 to south of Philly and then head north west to Allentown on
>468 or something like that, I don't have the map in front of me, but does
>that sound about right?

You pick up I-476 (the Blue Route) from I-95 at the south end of Philly and 
just go straight north. I-476 connects directly to the Northeast Extension of 
the PA Turnpike (which is now I-476, it used to be PA 9 before the 
interchange was completed and you'll see it as PA 9 on older maps). There's 
an exit for Allentown, you just jump off right there. I don't have a map of 
the Allentown area in front of me either, but I don't think W-C is too far 
from the turnpike exit.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 07:11:28 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: meryder@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:45:42 -0400
Message-ID: <37AAE702.B3536952@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Aug5.141841.0>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
Precedence: bulk

I was just wondering:  in the museum world, we use UV-blocking glass
to protect delicate objects (and we also worry a whole lot about
the amount and kind of light the object gets).  Has anybody ever
experimented with using UV glass as the back of a SG wildflower
piece (the side that would face the window)? It looks just like 
slightly tinted glass and so should work...it might slow down the
fading somewhat.

Also, I have a gorgeous diamond-shaped SG piece with wildflowers
sandwiched in the center, that I bought from a gallery in Blowing
Rock, NC many years ago.  Don't know who the artist was,
unfortunately.  The flowers had very subdued "faded" colors
when I bought the piece, but the artist had perfectly complemented
them with his/her colors of glass.  The whole effect is subtle and
very beautiful.  In other words, the loss of bright color doesn't
have to be a negative thing!

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
> the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
> from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
> from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
> drivers' side window of the car.
> 
> Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
> color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
> it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.
> c
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 08:36:00 1999
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: hotglass@list.bb.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:22:31 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.152231.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just a note in passing...thorium oxide and cerium oxide were and are used in 
many commercial dichroic coatings..sooo if you don't know the source...treat 
like old uranium glass (that not made w/ depleted uranium)..the thorium oxide 
is a definite hazard.

Jack
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 09:37:23 1999
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From: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Education in Glass
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:11:06 -0400 (EDT)
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Listed in Stained Glass Quarterly under college Degree Programs is:

Art Dept Whitworth College 
300 W. Hawthorne Rd 
Spokane, WA



Swansea Institute of Higher Ed
Architectural Glass Dept 
Alexandra Rd
Swansea, Wales  UK



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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <ATFSI@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:56:09 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.2569.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Just a note in passing...thorium oxide and cerium oxide were and are used
in
many commercial dichroic coatings..sooo if you don't know the source...treat
like old uranium glass (that not made w/ depleted uranium)..the thorium
oxide
is a definite hazard.

Jack<<

Those of us that bevel take on a lot of creium oxide. If it was a poison
strong enough to kill an ant I would not be here.

Bob ( who polished 38 bevel inches with cerium oxide yesterday)


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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 11:11:07 1999
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: gregb@scottsburg.com, hotglass@list.bb.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:54:05 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.17545.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sorry if I hit a nerve..was reading the Uranium Glass thread...to clarify, 
these materials...Thorium and the radioactive  portions of the uranium 
isotopes are present in small quantities..and even in comparatively larger 
quantities are not considered very dangerous unless injested...harmless, 
probably when encased in glass...my comment was that thorium oxide (and 
thorium flouride) are still being used in the dichroic filter industry for 
commercial applications....so..the moral is ..if you'r grinding  up a fair 
amount of dichroic over time you might want to check where it came from..its 
doubtful you would find this in art glass dichroic as this is usually used 
with "soft" filters..but I'd be careful of surplus stuff of unknown orign, 
that's all...

Jack
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 11:41:52 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: lead free solder
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.35851.0>
Precedence: bulk

I know most of y'all will roll your eyes at this, but this is a
reminder to the people who might be newish to stained glass. If you are
using lead free solder, and you use your regular soldering iron with
its coating of regular solder on it, your lead free is no longer lead
free. 
Happy Scoring
chris

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 14:18:39 1999
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X-Path: mail2.nai.net!shad
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:48:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.12483.0>
References: <<199908060251.WAA27025@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

You can also suspend your name tags from bungi cords (as we know, this group
is into fashion statements).  I may just make some Emeraldine iron-on
tee-shirts this weekend!
Dorothy

"suzy@comcat.com" wrote:

> Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
> idea so we can all find each other!
>
> Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
> would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
>
> Suzanne
>
> suzanne albright
> suzy@comcat.com
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 15:24:07 1999
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X-Path: GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU!kaye
From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:36:18 CST 6CDT
Message-ID: <199908062136.QAA08389@relay.acns.nwu.edu>
Organization: GSA-ORSP
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I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?  
Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when 
they get theirs?

Thanks,

Kaye
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 15:50:32 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:44:45 -0400
Message-ID: <199908062142.RAA12402@uz.ComCAT.COM>
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8/6/99 4:48 PM Family Account shad@mail2.nai.net

>You can also suspend your name tags from bungi cords (as we know, this group
>is into fashion statements).  I may just make some Emeraldine iron-on
>tee-shirts this weekend!
>Dorothy

GREAT - but, what does Emeraldine look like?



suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 16:34:13 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Education in Glass
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:37:09 -0400
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And there are glass schools in Glasgow
as well as Switzerland... with degree programs.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 16:53:30 1999
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From: BMarhon@aol.com
To: kaye@gsa-orsp.crown.nwu.edu
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Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:50:30 EDT
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I registered on-line about a month ago and received my package beginning of 
last week.  I kind of wondered where it was myself until I got it.
Brenda Marhon

<< I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?  
 Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when 
 they get theirs?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Kaye >>
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 17:24:05 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Kaye Sodt <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 18:50:16 -0500
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References: <<199908062136.QAA08389@relay.acns.nwu.edu>>
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I've gotten mine.
I registered early.  Charles...are they all sent out yet? ;o)

Suzanne

Kaye Sodt wrote:
> 
> I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?
> Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when
> they get theirs?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kaye
> ----
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-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 17:46:30 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
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Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 18:49:35 -0500
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Sorry.....you wont find a bungi cord hanging from *my* neck....
but...I'll be hanging out with Pa Suzanne alot! ;o)

So, look for her...and find me.

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 06:38:27 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:57:40 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.125740.0>
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Also sprach Bob ( who polished 38 bevel inches with cerium oxide yesterday):

>Those of us that bevel take on a lot of cerium oxide. If it was a poison
>strong enough to kill an ant I would not be here.

But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working with 
and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out 
equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get into 
the air, etc.

One of the things that got pounded into my head as a student in chemistry and 
chemical engineering 25 years ago is that almost anything can be handled 
safely if you know the hazards involved, have the right tools and equipment 
in good working order, and follow proper safety procedures. (Of course you 
can never entirely eliminate risk because Murphy is an Evil Genius, but you 
can certainly cut it way down!)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 08:46:52 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:45:43 -0700
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>>But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working with
and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out
equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get into
the air, etc.<<

The answer to that is yes and no. The grinding surfaces are kept wet as a
matter of necessity as well as health safety. When polishing, my hands,
forearms and shirt front end up covered with a slurry of water and cerium
oxide. Work surfaces in the polishing area are well coated with the stuff.
Ants seem to walk through it without problem. My pet spider only regrets my
slopping it on her web.

Were the CO to be toxic in any serious way it would be a problem. I use it
sparingly but go through a 44 pound container in a year. I believe the main
hazard is to the lungs through breathing CO charged water vapor. Surely the
CO can be no better than whiting dust on the God installed breathing gear.

Bob


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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 12:17:45 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: First E-Tour Photos!
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 11:18:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.4184.0>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
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Hello everyone!!

Steve Wernecke was Elisabeth's first host family and he snapped some
shots of her while site seeing in California! He has graciously allowed
the photos to be uploaded for all of us to see and enjoy. Steve says he
will be taking some pictures at the Maryland workshop too.

If all of the host families will take pictures I would sincerely
appreciate it and will include those in the E-Tour photo album as well.
You can send them along in an e-mail to me or upload them to the net via
your web site directory and I'll grab them from there.

The photo album is located here:
 http://members.xoom.com/GlassArt1/photos.htm

Thanks Steve!!!!!!!!


Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 14:42:12 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:25:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.82540.0>
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I am thinking about how to reinforce my tesselation piece which will be
foiled.  Because of the number of curves between one side to another, I was
going to use the thin braided wire.  But I am not sure that this type of
reinforcement really will add anything to the stability.  I plan on using a
wooden frame.  The piece will be approximately 24" x 24".  The bodies and
heads of the butterflies are double fused glass, which will add weight
throughout the piece, however, they are very small  (heads 3/8" and bodies
about 1").  I also melted frit into the wings, but it only slightly added to
the thickness.  I want to use the narrowest foil that I can get away with
maybe 1/8".    Maybe I should give up the braid, and just add a thicker
foil.  I need help deciding?

There is a gentlemen that is in our local guild, and he always gives me the
hardest time about the fact I absolutely never think of reinforcement until
I am almost finished....I tell him it must be a male thing to think about it
first!!!  He insists that I need to rearrange my priorities!  He is right,
of course!  Dammit!  cj

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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:04:42 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Thanks, Steve!
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:34:02 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.11342.0>
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Wow, there are even shirts available with the E-Tour "logo".  How can we
get one?

Thanks, Steve for the photos and for setting them up for us all to see.
It was fun to see the old "Big Sur" sight......the traffic on Hwy.
1.....is it like that all the time now?

Great idea to share with the group and those of us who aren't able to 
"E" in person due to time and distance constraints.

Diane Manchester
Tiffany Styled Originals
Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:28:00 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:18:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.14184.0>
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Message text written by "Claudette Jaramillo"
>The piece will be approximately 24" x 24". <

Don't worry about reinforcing.... it's not large
enough and the organic design has built in
strength.  Just make sure you have enough
overlap of the copper foil on each piece to
ensure an adequate leaf when you solder....
and make sure the solder runs between the
pieces of glass.  Remember, you're essentially
re-creating a lead matrix - two leaves with a =

heart sandwiched between two pieces of
glass.  Does that make sense?  That's where
you'll get the strength in the panel.  =


Just for anyone who might be interested, we
don't reinforce when the piece is smaller
than 14 perimeter feet, unless the design
specifically requires it.  Overbuilding a window
is a waste of time and materials.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:28:33 1999
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From: Gloyn@aol.com
To: creativeco@pdq.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:19:33 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.231933.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Margo, I am currently working on a bird bath myself and am using the 
regular tile mastic, just taking a popsicle stick and applying the mastic to 
the back of each peice for the detail part of the design and then spreading 
it on the surface and then pressing the glass on for the larger regular 
border and background areas.  It seems to be holding the peices really well 
and even though it's a little sloppy I'm not being overwhelmed with glue 
fumes.  Gwyn
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:43:07 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:17:54 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.141754.0>
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>whiting dust on the God installed breathing gear.<

Not to mention the lead particles that probably
are suspended in that whiting dust.....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 20:51:14 1999
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From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
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puter problems and going on vacation next week.
Linda Jo

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 08:23:52 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:05:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.2516.0>
Precedence: bulk

Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger than
a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.

However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which is
to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct path
that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach it
to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj


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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: frit -Shirley G.
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:49:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.14924.0>
Precedence: bulk

Frit is (or is that frits are?) small particles of glass.  I make it by
pounding glass in a duct tape sack.  But you can buy it already done.  In
this case I used those very small glass seed beads.  I apply and fuse in the
kiln.  I had used spectrum glass on the tesselation, because I had it on
hand, and it didn't have enough --umph!  So I tried to make it more
interesting with texture and color in a very subtle way, because the pattern
is so busy.  cj

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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:01:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.6122.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.2516.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me with
this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail or if
it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to just
me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out yet!
Thanks!

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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:49:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.84928.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) wrote:
> 
> I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me with
> this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail or if
> it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to just
> me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out yet!
> Thanks!
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it came through fine

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:18:06 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:15:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.9157.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I see you! Hope this reply gets back to you :)
Kris

----- Original Message -----
From: Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 12:01 PM
Subject: testing!


> I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi
and to me with
> this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi
mail or if
> it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so
replying to just
> me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this
figured out yet!
> Thanks!
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:34:04 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG Chicago and Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:22:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.72235.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Gotcha loud and clear Tracy. 
Anyone here live in or around Chicago?
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:47:07 1999
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X-Path: harborside.com!waterfall
From: "Roberto and Barbara Delgado" <waterfall@harborside.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: testing 
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:26:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.52656.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I got your message for a test Northernlights.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I got your message for a test=20
Northernlights.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60--

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:49:03 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Tracy--testing
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:55:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.55552.0>
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received.  cj

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 12:06:30 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mar333Wood
From: Mar333Wood@aol.com
To: Northernlights@pobox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:33:17 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.173317.0>
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Tracy,
Mail is sparse today but it is coming through.

Until later,
Marti
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 12:07:33 1999
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X-Path: heesun.com!keane
From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: <Northernlights@pobox.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re:Testing
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:05:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.952.0>
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Got it

Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics
At 11:01 AM 8/8/99 -0500, Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) wrote:
>I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me
with
>this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail
or if
>it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to
just
>me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out
yet!
>Thanks!
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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X-Path: inter-prog.co.uk!alan
From: "Alan" <alan@inter-prog.co.uk>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 18:08:15 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.19815.0>
Precedence: bulk

It's working



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X-Path: fuse.net!afields
From: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Fusing Wire
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:52:09 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.10529.0>
Precedence: bulk

I've been using copper wire to fuse  and my husband asked me why I don't
use stainless steel wire?  Can I do that and where would I get it?  I
haven't used anything but copper.   Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 13:59:21 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Jenna Sanders
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:35:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.93541.0>
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I Jenna!  Will you email me please?
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 14:49:20 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: NG Chicago
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 15:59:57 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.155957.0>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne - How far around?  I live about 120 miles south - Danville,
Illinois.  Tami


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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fusing Wire
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:30:47 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug8.10529.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Arleen Fields wrote:
> 
> I've been using copper wire to fuse  and my husband asked me why I don't
> use stainless steel wire?  Can I do that and where would I get it?  I
> haven't used anything but copper.   Any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


try to find an ortha dontist (sp?) they use stainless wire. if you have
one in your area he may have a catalog that can help. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:26:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.122643.0>
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Elisabeth.....
I have a question regarding my drawing for your workshop. :o)
There is a break line that I dont know whether to keep or lose.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:28:45 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 99 06:57:53 
Message-ID: <199908090104.TAA20268@mantis.privatei.com>
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got you fine...
sunday night around 7 pm
Candy

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:42:18 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium o
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:04:39 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.17439.0>
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>From Monona.... thanks again!

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Monona Rossol, [75054,2542]
To:     Dani Greer, [105715,1412]
        =

Date:   8/8/99  2:39 PM

RE:     Re: Thorium and Cerium o


Dani--forward on to friend Bob.

>>But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working
with and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out=

equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get
into the air, etc.<<

> The answer to that is yes and no. The grinding surfaces are kept wet as=
 a
> matter of necessity as well as health safety. When polishing, my hands,=
 >
forearms and shirt front end up covered with a slurry of water and cerium=
 >
oxide. Work surfaces in the polishing area are well coated with the stuff=

From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:57:40 1999
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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG: thank you!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:30:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.153044.0>
Precedence: bulk

many thanks to those who replied...looks like Glenna and I have the
problem fixed and I'm back in single (rather than duplicate) mode.  The
messages were kind of like having deja vu, "I could have SWORN I just
read about this!"  :>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 20:59:34 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.13754.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.122643.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Suzanne, Hi All (Is this getting thru' to Bungi too...?)

Yep, I'm out here, very soon I'll be outta here;-> (heading for
Philadelphia tomorrow).
Leave the break line for the workshop and we'll discuss it then. Basically
speaking, have a good look at your design. If the line has no function,
then get rid of it. But for the excercise, leave it in pencil.  For all
YOU who are preparing your OWN drawings, I hope these are only PENCIL
drawings so far....!
See you ALL in a few days time  ;->
Elisabeth 'n absent Toby "incommunicado" in sunny California

On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Suzanne Gunn wrote:

> Elisabeth.....
> I have a question regarding my drawing for your workshop. :o)
> There is a break line that I dont know whether to keep or lose.
> -- 
> Suzanne
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Choosing is only difficult 
> for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 21:31:17 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
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Subject: Re: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 22:38:42 -0500
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I thought we were supposed to have them almost ready to assemble....
heck....I guess I can relax now! ;o)

Whew..  I have myself a nice little panel for copperfoil....but dont
have a clue about the problems it will pose for lead came! ;o)
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 07:41:55 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: reinforcement
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:35:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug9.23529.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.2516.0>>
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cj:

the way I understand it is the braided reinforcement stuff is supposed to
soldered to add strength. What I have supposed is that I should use the
strong line for lead projects and use the braid for copper foil pieces. And
if you use the braid, leave enough space between your pieces that the solder
runs down in between and thoroughly solders the braid too--and that's what
adds the strength.

I agree with you--the strong line is a pain to use. The braid looks like it
would be a lot easier, but I haven't tried it either.

Shari

----- Original Message -----
From: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: reinforcement


> Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
> flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger
than
> a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.
>
> However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
> types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which
is
> to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
> reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
> person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct
path
> that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
> aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
> braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
> amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
> the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach
it
> to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
> support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj
>
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 08:41:25 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Shari <shigbee@mtcon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: reinforcement
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:12:43 -0400
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Shari wrote:
> 
> cj:
> 
> the way I understand it is the braided reinforcement stuff is supposed to
> soldered to add strength. What I have supposed is that I should use the
> strong line for lead projects and use the braid for copper foil pieces. And
> if you use the braid, leave enough space between your pieces that the solder
> runs down in between and thoroughly solders the braid too--and that's what
> adds the strength.
> 
> I agree with you--the strong line is a pain to use. The braid looks like it
> would be a lot easier, but I haven't tried it either.
> 
> Shari
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
> To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 8:05 AM
> Subject: reinforcement
> 
> > Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
> > flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger
> than
> > a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.
> >
> > However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
> > types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which
> is
> > to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
> > reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
> > person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct
> path
> > that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
> > aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
> > braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
> > amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
> > the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach
> it
> > to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
> > support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj
> >
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> 
> ----
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braid is difficult to stuff into the joints, because it bunches. but of
the one's i tried that's the strongest. as long as you can shove that
stuff in between pieces, that's all you need, it is'nt really necessery
to leave addtional space. the braid soaks up the solder. 

braid also works better because it's already coated in a solder like
substance, which means that it does'nt corrode over time. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 10:12:20 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Educational Question
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:51:41 -0700
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At California State University at Chico the Bachelor of Art, Sculpture/Craft
specialty definitely included glass, both hot and cold worked.  At the time
I was in the degree program (1979 - 1982), most of the people focusing on
glass chose to mainly do hot glass.  There was at least one person doing
large sculptures involving a lot of cold sheet glass with sand blasted
details.

As in most Bachelor's programs you would be required to explore a wide range
of media.  I am fairly sure they would allow a stained glass emphasis in the
last two years if you showed a good enough proposal for it.  You might need
to search out stained glass artists outside the school though depending on
who the current teachers are.  The main glass teacher in 1980/82 was pretty
good at stained glass, but his main interest was hot glass.  I suspect that
someone really focused on stained glass would have moved beyond his
expertise at some point.

----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Educational Question


>
>
> Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
> program versus a craft/vocational school?
>
> Pam
>





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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 12:12:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Start of a good week!
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:46:33 -0400
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Hello everyone!

I started my day today in a fun and
interesting way!  I received a check from
MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!
At any rate, I called them and sure =

enough it was incorrect... they were quite
shaken and confused by the whole matter....
and I am returning the check today of
course.  But, I know there's another even
better surprise just around the corner!  So
it's started the week on rather a delightful,
anticipating note!

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:05:57 1999
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To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Start of a good week!
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 12:40:21 -0700
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Geez...and here I thought you were going to buy a round for bungi!

At 02:46 PM 8/9/99 -0400, Dani Greer wrote:
>Hello everyone!
>
>I started my day today in a fun and
>interesting way!  I received a check from
>MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
>haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!
>At any rate, I called them and sure =
>
>enough it was incorrect... they were quite
>shaken and confused by the whole matter....
>and I am returning the check today of
>course.  But, I know there's another even
>better surprise just around the corner!  So
>it's started the week on rather a delightful,
>anticipating note!
>
>best,
>
>Dani Greer
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:37:30 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Start of a good week!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:26:38 +0000
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> I started my day today in a fun and
> interesting way!  I received a check from
> MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
> haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!

Dani, welcome to the wild n' wonderful world of computers (and those 
who run their keyboards). If human beings, being human, could make 
mistakes before, they can make even bigger, faster ones now. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:57:37 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
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::rubs Dani's foot for luck::

:D
chris
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 15:39:06 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: NG: Kudos to Dani
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:03:32 -0600
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And may I be the first to add Dani to Bob Du's name in our Bungi Hall of
Fame of Good Folks Who Do Good and Decent Things!!



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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 16:10:17 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:14:07 -0400
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Message text written by "Albert Lewis"
>Dani, welcome to the wild n' wonderful world of computers (and those =

who run their keyboards). If human beings, being human, could make =

mistakes before, they can make even bigger, faster ones now. <grin>
<

So true, and then I got to thinking, is this Y2K- related
stuff already?  Might not be so bad.... hehehehe.  Then
I got to thinking, I haven't heard anything about USWest,
our local carrier being Y2K compliant... would sort of =

shut down a few functions, no?  If the local phone  company
didn't have dial tone... no long distance, no computer...etc.
Good thing I have addresses for just about everyone... now
here's hoping the city utilities get their act together.... last we
heard, they fired the Y2K team, hired someone new for
an additional few million.  Haven't heard anything more since...
the mayor is busy trying to get a fountain so we can be a
"real city". <Big Sigh>


Signing off from Planet Earth,

Dani
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 07:37:32 1999
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Glass Visions info, that is.

Kaye
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 09:08:05 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
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>>I had used spectrum glass on the tesselation, because I had it on
hand, and it didn't have enough --umph!  So I tried to make it more
interesting with texture and color in a very subtle way, because the pattern
is so busy.  cj<<

I very much like to increase interest in a stained glass project by doing
something that is out of the ordinary. Often this will take the form of a
bit of fusing or a colored bevel. Ordinary people (those that are not into
glass) will ask how it was done. This can lead to sales because the SG piece
is out of the ordinary and so special.

Bob


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 09:38:12 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:24:54 -0600
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I just make a small rectangle sack shape out of several layers of newspaper,
and then cover both sides with duct tape, and fold it and tape all joining
sides with duct tape.   Put in a handfull of glass before sealing the last
side and then I pound with a hammer.  Try to hammer without tearing the
sack...retape any tears if they occur.  Don't forget your safety glasses.
(My fourth graders made me enough frit to last me for years). I have three
different sized (screens) sieves found around my house but I sure if you
keep your eye out at the household section of any discount store you could
find different sizes.  After I have pounded thoroughly...you can check by
cutting open the sack and resealing if not enough.  I shake my frit through
the sieves removing the largest frit to the smallest.  Then I store in
babyfood jars (because they are clear).

I mix different COE's together, I have never had a problem.  I talked with a
man at the Albuquerque Crafts show this year, he made jewlery with frit and
glass.  He says he buys boxes of scrap glass for $5.00.  He has no idea what
the COE is...so his rule of thumb is...if it doesn't crack in two weeks it
is good.  Since then, I have never been afraid.

I found on the web, a guy who built a frit maker out of a sears stainless
steel garbage disposal.  He mounted the disposal in the lid of one of those
large plastic pails.  He then made a hole on lid of the bucket to mount a
shop vac, to vacuum out glass dust.  He uses a speaker magnet to attract any
metal particles out of the frit.  He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
does not give credit to the person he learned it from.

I only use small amounts, so what I am doing with the hammer works.  Happy
fritting!  cj



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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 10:08:01 1999
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Subject: Dalles de verre 
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:40:47 -0700
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Does anyone know a place that carries dalles de verre in this country
(USA)?  Preferably on the west coast.

By the way, how much do they run?  Sold by weight?

Found lots of stuff on dalles de verre on the web ... all in French of
course (no problem for me but probably is for a lot of folks) ... but
can't seem to find a shop that carries them.

Thanks ..... Bob
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 11:08:08 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:30:51 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.33051.0>
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>>He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
does not give credit to the person he learned it from.<<

Let's give credit where credit is due: Boyce Lundstrom in "Glass Fusing Book
1".

Bob


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 11:38:26 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium o
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:08:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.1085.0>
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Another forwarded post from Monona follows.....

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:	Monona Rossol, [75054,2542]
To:	Dani Greer, [105715,1412]
	=

Date:	8/9/99  7:03 PM

RE:	Re: Thorium and Cerium o



> Thanks, Monona.... came from bungi and
> I forwarded your response to them. <

I notice the subject line is "Thorium and Cerium..."  I didn't see anythi=
ng =

about thorium in the post. This is a nasty radioactive metal that I still=
 see =

used as an additive to glass, enamels, and occasionally ceramics.  Mostly=
 =

seen in antiques, but still available in some thorium red enamels.

Is anyone on Bungi using it or advocating its use?

Monona
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 12:11:07 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dalles de verre
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:14:47 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.101447.0>
Precedence: bulk

Blenko makes and sells dalles... can
profess to their speed or service...
has been a bit tempermental in the past.
I think they're in the Sources Guide....
IGGA web page.

best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 13:40:55 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dalle Glass & Glass Dictionary
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:07:39 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.9739.0>
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Forgive me, I don't remember the bungi contributor, but someone has
recently mentioned that Kokomo is starting to making dalle glass......

On another note, as I was scanning the web, I happened upon a GREAT
dictionary of glass terms......it is extremely comprehensive.  All you
glass literates, check it out:

http://www.artechpublishing.com/dictionary/index.html

Diane Manchester
Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 14:43:02 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Blenko Glass
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:43:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.124341.0>
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www.blenkoglass.com        

Hope this helps




Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street 
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio 
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 15:14:03 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dalle Glass & Glass Dictionary
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:45:06 -0400
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Message text written by Diane W Manchester
>On another note, as I was scanning the web, I happened upon a GREAT
dictionary of glass terms......it is extremely comprehensive.  All you
glass literates, check it out:<

Thanks for that tip!  Great to pass on to
students...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 17:52:54 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:21:18 EDT
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In a message dated 8/10/99 12:39:19 PM, cpjaram@7cities.net writes:

>(My fourth graders made me enough frit to last me for years). [...]

<ROFLMAO> I'll bet they did!!!!!!!!!!!

>I found on the web, a guy who built a frit maker out of a sears stainless
>steel garbage disposal.

Now *that* sounds like my kind of guy!

>He then made a hole on lid of the bucket to mount a
>shop vac, to vacuum out glass dust.

Hmmmmmmmm.......... wonder why he doesn't run the thing wet (which is the way 
you're supposed to run a garbage disposal anyway, since the water provides 
both lubrication and cooling to some extent)? It would be a lot safer; vacuum 
bags and filters (except maybe the HEPA ones) don't catch the really fine 
stuff, and the not-so-fine stuff will cut up your filter anyway.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 18:25:28 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!deethom
From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:11:50 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990810211148.00973884@pop.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

I took a course with Dan Fenton some years ago.  He pulled a red hot sheet
of glass from the kiln and dropped in a bucket of water....frit!  
I've done only it a few times since. It obviously needs a sieve, but it
turns out well for me, it's a bit coarse, but even.
Dee

 At 10:30 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
>in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
>address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
>does not give credit to the person he learned it from.<<
>
>Let's give credit where credit is due: Boyce Lundstrom in "Glass Fusing Book
>1".
>
>Bob
>
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 20:28:49 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 99 08:45:56 
Message-ID: <199908110252.UAA04805@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

more on frit

I saw the garbage disposal trick in one of my fusing books, prob Gil Reynolds or such 
like..

I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel bowl covered in kilnwash, 
bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and pour it into a 5 
gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp, smaller the frit..

and you get some interesting fused pieces about marble size as well
Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 06:19:14 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:16:19 -0600
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Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
bowl covered in kilnwash,
bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
pour it into a 5
gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
smaller the frit.."

I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
any safety issues here?  thanks  cj

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 06:37:45 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: something extra 
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:24:22 -0600
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Bob D. wrote "I very much like to increase interest in a stained glass"

I know, I saw your Iris centers on your web page!  Very lovely!   cj 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 07:15:58 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:04:14 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.6414.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.11619.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Claudette Jaramillo wrote:
> 
> Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
> bowl covered in kilnwash,
> bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
> pour it into a 5
> gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
> smaller the frit.."
> 
> I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
> best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
> any safety issues here?  thanks  cj
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


if i had to guess, whatch out for steam, spitting, and possible
rejection. where goggles and the like. and don't burn yourself putting
in the hot glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 07:48:21 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!iluvscotties
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:39:28 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Precedence: bulk

I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
someone on the Internet.
It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
him/er the postcard.)

Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
the first got ruined).

Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
first to see how this particular artist does!)  

In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?

Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:18:12 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:13:37 -0400
Message-ID: <37B19315.AA28FB73@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
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Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
unhappy with the work?  I would hope that a firm, detailed,
 but evenly-phrased (i.e. not overly emotional or angry) complaint 
would get your problem resolved and your box re-done with a new card.  

I would be upset too if I received a piece of work like
that, but I think the right thing to do would be to first try to 
resolve it directly with the artist (and/or the vendor if you 
bought it through a third party). I'll bet (and hope) he/she/they 
will be eager to make it right.

PJ Jellison

Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
> 
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> the first got ruined).
> 
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
> 
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> 
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
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> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:36:21 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, 'Scottie, Lover'
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:45:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.64537.0>
Precedence: bulk

I would contact the artist and see what s/he says.
Tell them you are upset about the smudge and will supply a replacement
postcard but you want it corrected or you expect a full refund. To me this
is the same as a crack in the glass itself and should be treated that way.

The "no unsightly unremovable smudges or other defects" is implied.

Vic M.
 vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Scottie Lover [mailto:iluvscotties@mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:39 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Custom orders by mail?


I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
someone on the Internet.
It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
him/er the postcard.)

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:49:36 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>,
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:32:27 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.33227.0>
References: <<4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>>
Precedence: bulk

Oh man, I remember how excited you were about the enthusiastic response to
help you out. I can just imagine your reaction when you opened the
shipment--what a drag!

One would think that when dealing with an "artist", their pride in their
work would eliminate the need to put in writing "no unsightly messes
please". I can simply not imagine sending something I made to someone with
that type of massive flaw. Especially when they were paying for it!!!

So no, I don't think specifying that type of obvious point should be
necessary nor do I think it would help. Obviously, for your next 6 boxes,
you will choose a different artist. Perhaps ask for a couple of references
on the artist's work--and definitely contact them (the references) before
you place your order / send your money. Even non professionals like myself
could supply a couple of references--my sister-in-law who buys boxes for her
family members for birthday gifts, etc.

And you should probably have a heart-to-heart conversation (I suggest via
phone, not email) with artist #1 and tell them how you feel and ending with
your expectations of them making it right (refunding money, doing another
box, fixing the first one, etc......) If this conversation does not go well,
I might even mention that I will bring this issue up, including their name,
to bungi to get other's reactions.

Good luck, and I sincerely hope your next experience will be better!!!

Shari
Salt Lake City, Utah


----- Original Message -----
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:39 AM
Subject: Custom orders by mail?


> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the
glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
>
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one
if
> the first got ruined).
>
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
>
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any
good?
>
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 09:11:49 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:34:03 -0400
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I understand your point.  I guess I just always try to give folks the
benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that I shouldn't!  My
thought on this was, sometimes glue changes its look or soaks
through as it ages or if it gets hot; what if the artist used glue on 
the back of the postcard to attach it, then finished the box and 
shipped it -- and then the glue seeped through in the heat of a UPS 
truck or such? 

I have absolutely no experience with making these boxes, and 
I'd be the last person to want to excuse truly shoddy
work -- I'm just suggesting that there may be scenarios we haven't
thought of, in which the smudge wouldn't have been visible to the 
artist.  In any case, I sure hope you can get it resolved amicably 
with him/her/them.

Cheers,
PJ Jellison



Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
> >Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're
> >unhappy with the work?
> 
> I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
> artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
> that anyone would be unhappy with it.
> 
> Thank you VERY much for your great help.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 09:55:53 1999
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To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>, "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:20:00 -0400
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At 10:45 AM 8/11/99 , Modiano, Victor wrote: 
>
> The "no unsightly unremovable smudges or other defects" is implied. 


That's what I would have thought before this happened.  Thank you *VERY* much
for confirming that, and for your invaluable assistance.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:17:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:18:20 -0400
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At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
>Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
>unhappy with the work? 

I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
that anyone would be unhappy with it.

Thank you VERY much for your great help.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:20:35 1999
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Subject: Fwd: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:46:39 EDT
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:46:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
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Hi there uluvscotties,

Too bad about your postcard/box. I would DEFINATELY send it back and have the 
person who made it replace the card with a new one. Sounds like it could be 
flux on the card or adhesive. If you were my customer I'd do it for no 
charge, and I would never have sent it to you that way to begin with- that is 
simply poor craftsmanship and poor business practice!
Is there a way you could replace the card by yourself (I'm assuming that you 
do glass) ?
 I'd also find a more reputable person to order from. 

just my 2 cents
Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:40:46 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:11:46 -0700
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If you paid by a credit card you have recourse..........
Call the "800" number for the card and explain the problem and ask to have
the purchase charged back to the merchant........You will probably have to
submit a written statement as to your complaint, too.
This will CERTAINLY get the attention of the merchant..............
NOTHING wrong with using a CC for most transactions........minor
observation, PAY IT IN FULL EACH MONTH......with careful charging and
watching the close date, you can get 45 days to settle up......
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:55:40 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:12:13 -0500
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Im so sorry to hear what happened with your box.
Have you contacted the person who made it for you yet?

I consider it *incredibly unprofessional* of them to have sent it to
you in such shape, and manner.  

I would contact them, regarding them fixing it or returning your money.
I sure hope it was no one on Bungi.  It makes us *all* look bad.


If whoever did it for you wont fix it for you, perhaps there is a kind
soul on Bungi who will repair it for you free of charge...do you have
another postcard? (I really hope it isnt irreplaceable?)

Regardless what they charge you for the box, it should be made to the
highest standards.  That would include no smudges etc...

Good luck.  Please let us know what happens.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:18:01 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:39:23 -0700
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Scottie,

OK.  Now let me get this straight.

You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?  

Is that it?  Or did I misunderstand?

Bob



Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
> 
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> the first got ruined).
> 
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
> 
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> 
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:27:21 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:22:24 -0700
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I suggest you put the box back in the mail and return it to the sender/maker
with a new post card and a brief note. Something like, "Please redo the
cover with the new post card that is enclosed. Something seems to have
happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie Lover"

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:48:36 1999
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To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:04:49 -0700
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Scottie,

okokokokokokokok ... just checking ... the original msg wasn't clear to
me.

Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
exact terms.  Very simple.

Regards ....... Bob

Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> _NO_.  I would never again order anything from this person.  Since I want
> six more boxes (different pictures, for different people), I'm trying to
> find out how to prevent this problem from whomever I order them from (which
> will very definitely _NOT_ be the person from whom I ordered the smudged box).
> 
> At 01:39 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
> >You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
> >next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
> >purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
> >competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
> >is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
> >more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:50:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:44:31 -0400
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At 01:15 PM 8/11/99 , Suzanne Gunn wrote:
>The question is...have you contacted the maker of the box? and What was
>their reaction?

I E-Mailed him/er upon receipt, but didn't get any response.  I tried that
before posting to the list, since at least I'd like to know how to avoid
this sort of problem in the future.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:54:35 1999
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At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
>exact terms.  Very simple.

Okay, thanks.  This just seemed so obvious to me (since I can't imagine
anyone being satisfied with that huge, unmistakable smudge), but I will
definitely try to cover all bases next time <sigh>.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:15:17 1999
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> "Please redo the cover with the new post card that is enclosed.
> Something seems to have happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie
> Lover"

Yes, the assumption's being made here by many of those who responded  
that the craftsperson won't stand behind his/her work. Don't get mad 
until it's clear you're not going to get satisfaction with a smile 
and an apology.  If you don't, *then get mad. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:26:07 1999
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To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>I suggest you put the box back in the mail and return it to the
sender/maker
with a new post card and a brief note. Something like, "Please redo the
cover with the new post card that is enclosed. Something seems to have
happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie Lover"
<

You're entirely too professional, Bob... cut that
out!  Haha!

Best,

Dani
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com, hilary@voicenet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: E-TOUR UPDATE!
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:37:10 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.183710.0>
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Just got off the phone with Elisabeth, and wanted to update everyone.  She 
says to say "HI!", and that she is doing well.  She has arrived in 
Pennsylvania.

Wanted to let everyone know that the second workshop to be held at our 
location (August 21 & 22) has been cancelled due to lack of signups, but that 
there are still spaces left in the August 14 & 15 class for anyone who wants 
to sign up now!  The class fee is $100 + materials, the materials list is 
below as Elisabeth wrote it.

The class will be meeting from 10am - 5pm on Saturday and Sunday, and we're 
looking forward to seeing everyone there!

Please let me know if anyone needs any more information.

Jenna Meredith-Sanders
Meredith Stained Glass
www.meredithglass.com

MATERIALS LIST IS AS FOLLOWS:
What tools should students  bring to the w/s???:

1.  paper, pencils, rubber, ruller, markies (red, black and blue)

2. 1 wooden board 2 inches larger all round than their design

3. 2 wooden battens lengths equiv to height and width of board, about 
1 inch  x 1/2 inch thick.

4. 3/4" nails with heads (about 20 - 30) and a number of horseshoe 
nails - if possible

5. a hammer

6. an old defunct blunt rounded dinner knife (i.e. no point)

7. an old defunct tooth brush

8. an old defunct nail scrubbing brush

9. grozer pliers

10. glass cutter

11. breaking pliers or anything similar from domestic tool box

12. sellotape

13. Garden tool sharpening stone (carburandum stone)

14. sharp plaster chisel (paint scraper)

15. soldering iron, sponge and stand

16. safety glasses/ gloves


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:50:09 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com" <HiimLaura@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fwd: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:45:51 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com
>If you were my customer I'd do it for no =

charge, and I would never have sent it to you that way to begin with- tha=
t
is =

simply poor craftsmanship and poor business practice!<

This could easily be moisture seepage that =

occurred after shipping.... I would contact =

the artist to find out if they will make good =

(before we condemn them to the slush pile
of lousy artists forevermore!)  They may be
more than happy to replace/fix the box in
which case you will know exactly where to
get the other six you want to order!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:08:15 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:35:24 -0400
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At 01:11 PM 8/11/99 , Howard wrote:
>If you paid by a credit card you have recourse..........
>Call the "800" number for the card and explain the problem and ask to have
>the purchase charged back to the merchant........You will probably have to
>submit a written statement as to your complaint, too.

I did pay by credit card (and, yes, I pay it off in full every month).  But
I didn't know that I could request a credit just because of dissatisfaction
(justified though it is, since the smudge is impossible to avoid).  Do you
mean that I can write to the bank holding the credit card and request a
refund (in which case I would obviously return the box)?
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:14:48 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:26:47 -0400
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Message text written by "Candy Thurman"
>and you get some interesting fused pieces about marble size as well<

And if you want smaller pieces, dump the frit back in
the pot, re-fire, then throw in water again.... again, and
again until you get the fine-ness you want.

Best,

Dani Greer-
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:29:56 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:32:17 -0400
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At 01:12 PM 8/11/99 , Suzanne Gunn wrote:
>I sure hope it was no one on Bungi.  

Sorry; it was.  That's why I was so careful with the s/he, him/er (*NOT*
that I feel that s/he deserves this courtesy).

>do you have another postcard? (I really hope it isnt irreplaceable?)

Yes. I could have understood this happening if either I had been in a
desperate hurry (when, instead, it was July, and the artist knew that it
was to be a Christmas gift), or if the postcard had been irreplaceable,
leaving no alternative (when, instead, I had specifically mentioned that it
was of a local scene, and I had purchased it in a local store -- i.e., it
is readily available, so I could easily have obtained another).

But thank you very much for your kind words.  I very much appreciate them.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:33:42 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:38:46 -0400
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_NO_.  I would never again order anything from this person.  Since I want
six more boxes (different pictures, for different people), I'm trying to
find out how to prevent this problem from whomever I order them from (which
will very definitely _NOT_ be the person from whom I ordered the smudged box).

At 01:39 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
>next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
>purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
>competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
>is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
>more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?  

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:49:02 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:33:29 -0400
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At 10:38 AM 8/11/99 , Albert Lewis wrote:
>Yes, the assumption's being made here by many of those who responded  
>that the craftsperson won't stand behind his/her work. Don't get mad 
>until it's clear you're not going to get satisfaction with a smile 
>and an apology.  If you don't, *then get mad. <grin>

Well, I haven't gotten any response to my E-Mail (which I don't take as a
good sign).  Moreover, frankly, I can't imagine sending it out like that in
the first place <sigh>.  Again, had I been in a desperate hurry or had no
means of getting another card, that would be one thing -- but the artist
knew that I don't need it until Christmas (and this was ordered in July),
and that I had picked up the postcard of a local scene (and can very easily
get more).
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:53:26 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: [Fwd: Re: fading wildflowers]
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:08:06 -0400
Message-ID: <37B1D81D.472C61FE@ceps.nasm.edu>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
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I think when I posted this originally I forgot to tag it for bungi --
anyhow I'm sending it now (even though that thread
seems to be done) in the hopes that someone here
*is* the artist who did this lovely piece...

(C'mon, if you're out there fess up and take some 
well-deserved credit!)

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

-------- Original Message --------
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers

I was just wondering:  in the museum world, we use UV-blocking glass
to protect delicate objects (and we also worry a whole lot about
the amount and kind of light the object gets).  Has anybody ever
experimented with using UV glass as the back of a SG wildflower
piece (the side that would face the window)? It looks just like 
slightly tinted glass and so should work...it might slow down the
fading somewhat.

Also, I have a gorgeous diamond-shaped SG piece with wildflowers
sandwiched in the center, that I bought from a gallery in Blowing
Rock, NC many years ago.  Don't know who the artist was,
unfortunately.  The flowers had very subdued "faded" colors
when I bought the piece, but the artist had perfectly complemented
them with his/her colors of glass (mauve antique).  The whole 
effect is subtle and very beautiful.  In other words, the loss 
of bright color doesn't have to be a negative thing!

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
> the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
> from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
> from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
> drivers' side window of the car.
> 
> Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
> color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
> it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.
> c
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:01:25 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:37:19 -0700
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At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
>exact terms.  Very simple.

Very hard to do also! I would be hard pressed to reduce my requirements to
one side of one typewritten page. If someone came at me with such a want
list I would turn the job down flat. I do not cater to would be clients that
are pickey about things they likely know little about.

Actually seeing a persons work is the best way to judge their ability.
Failing that then references may be tried. BUT you can not get the list of
references from the artist. Fore if I were to give you a list of references
you can bet the list would be headed by my mother and followed up by that
wonderful person that almost jumped out of their shoes when I delivered last
month.

Your best bet may be to go to an established stained glass outlet and trust
that they stay in business because they do a good job. Even so I would only
order one before I placed the main order even if it cost me something in a
group discount. Many studios give a discount on repeat orders anyway. After
all, you are then a proven good client and that is worth a lot.

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:06:01 1999
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X-Path: texcom-mail.army.mil!kellypatrick
From: "Patrick Kelly" <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
To: <glass@bungi.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG: Where in the world is "E"
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:33:22 -0500
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I just got a cold chill up my spine .... I feel the ominous presence of a =
"Viking"  (minus her K-9 companion). Please have mercy and tell me where =
she is.=20

Nadine, Lenore, Jenna, anybody.............HELP! I have to change my =
hiding place Friday.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:14:42 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:18:49 -0400
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This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
gotten around sooner or later.

I have NOT been contacted by email, or if an email was sent I did NOT
receive it. This customer also has my phone number, my toll free phone
number, and my postal mailing address (she did postal mail me the
postcard after all, and also has a flyer and business cards sent with
the box) so it is not like I'm hard to find. I DO stand behind my work
and I DO make every effort to correct any problems (not that I have
ever had a complaint or return before this) to the customer's
satisfaction.

That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
problem.

Please send the box back to me with a new postcard. I will take a look
at the box, see if I can figure out what happened, and I will repair
the box at no charge. If that is not acceptable please contact me in
any manner that you chose and I will make every effort to come to a
satisfactory arrangement with you.

My first response was to just refund your money in full immediately
because I am so hurt by your public smearing in this international
forum of artists, but my husband pointed out that I worked hard on the
box (which was $100 even, not well over) , and it cost me $30 for the
music box part of the order, and I deserve to be compensated if
possible.

Please let me know what I can do to resolve this in a satisfactory
manner.

Please note this as my public statement that I do have pride in my
work, I would never knowingly charge for (or even let out of studio
for free) substandard work, and I would always make every effort to
resolve a problem to my customer's satisfaction......  not that it
makes much difference now after all the cr*p that has been said about
me here today.

Kris



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:26:14 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:25:52 EDT
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Yes, I guess you are right, I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" (I thought: obvoius to the 
artist as well as to shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
packaging was damaged in any way. I promise not to jump to conclusions and 
condemn anyone to the incompetent artist pit before hearing their side! Now, 
if someone sent that knowing full well about "the blob," I'd love to hear 
their reasoning, wouldn't you?

time to eat!

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:32:04 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:35:58 +0000
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>  Do you mean that I can write to the bank
> holding the credit card and request a refund (in which case I would
> obviously return the box)?

Just call the 800 number on the back of your card, Scottie. It's the 
customer service number ... you're the customer and can quite happily 
request service. <grin>

Just tell them what happened; I think you'll find they'll go to bat 
for you.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 15:23:41 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:50:05 -0400
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At 04:25 PM 8/11/99 , HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
>I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
>seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" 
>(I thought: obvoius to the artist as well as to 
>shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
>packaging was damaged in any way.

No, the package wasn't damaged in any way -- and I don't think anyone could
have overlooked the blob.  That's why I'm so upset about it.
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X-Path: GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU!kaye
From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Custom orders by mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:33:10 CST 6CDT
Message-ID: <199908112233.RAA14490@relay.acns.nwu.edu>
Organization: GSA-ORSP
Precedence: bulk

I think it's very interesting what's happened here.   It seems some 
of us (myself included) were a little too hasty in judging a situation 
about which we had heard only one side.  Granted, "Scottie" was 
only asking for advice in how to proceed, and maybe because we're 
all also consumers, we leapt to assist.  It's ironic, though, that as 
"glass people" we weren't inclined to be a little more generous to 
the artist's perspective.  

Thanks, Kris, for having the courage to step forward.  I, for one, am 
reminded of a lesson I should have learned a long time ago.

Kaye
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 16:27:44 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:49:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.144948.0>
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heavens knows that we out here in the west love a good lynching, but could
we tone down the mob outcry just a little?

here we have a problem between a customer and a supplier of a piece of
merchandise. obviously the buyer isn't happy. however, they admit to not
being able to contact the supplier. we have heard from the supplier who
states that there are multiple avenues to contact her, with not all of them
being electronic email. face it, even it today's age, not all business can
and should be done via email, especially since the buyer has a phone number
and snail address.

i think it's a bit premature to talk of stopping payment through their
credit card, or boycotting of future purchases before attempting all avenues
of contacting the supplier to see if they'll make good on the problem. i
think it's very rare that a business won't work with an unhappy customer,
especially since it appears as if it might be possible (probable) the
product was damaged by heat during shipment. in the least case, the buyer
should actually be filing for damages with the shipment company and not
really with the maker.

for that matter, the credit card company won't actually backcharge the
supplier until the purchaser sends a written letter enclosing proof that
they've sent back, via registered and insured mail, the product anyway.

if all attempts to resolve the matter between the two parties fails, then
it's time to get the rope. :-)

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: Scottie Lover [mailto:iluvscotties@mindspring.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 2:50 PM
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?


At 04:25 PM 8/11/99 , HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
>I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
>seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" 
>(I thought: obvoius to the artist as well as to 
>shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
>packaging was damaged in any way.

No, the package wasn't damaged in any way -- and I don't think anyone could
have overlooked the blob.  That's why I'm so upset about it.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 16:42:48 1999
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X-Path: stmassociates.com!shigbee
From: "Shari Higbee" <shigbee@stmassociates.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Apology to Kris
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:11:10 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.111110.0>
Precedence: bulk

I owe a public apology to Kris. I am sorry! I admit to jumping to
conclusions and not remembering the simple fact that there is always 2 sides
to each story. I have no defense, but I must have just assumed the customer
had
contacted the artist and gotten no where that way before they wrote to
Bungi.

Obviously that did not happen. Obviously they jumped in to complain before
going through any proper channels. And just as obviously, I made a huge
mistake by jumping on the bandwagon.

Thank goodness some of our more level headed members had the sense to
emphasize that you go back to the artist first with any question or problem.

Kris, I'm sorry and in no way meant to defame your work or your
professionalism. I obviously didn't know what I was talking about and vow to
keep my mouth shut (hands clenched?) next time until I do.

Shari



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:00:34 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:20:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.152037.0>
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
Well, I haven't gotten any response to my E-Mail (which I don't take as a=

good sign).  Moreover, frankly, I can't imagine sending it out like that =
in
the first place <sigh>.<

E-mails are not infallible (what, you say!  Problems on
the Internet??), the artist may be out-of-town and,
once again, the box may have suffered its damage
after it was mailed.  Ask anyone who has ever done
plating what a pain in the patoot it is to keep the
interior of the glass clean.... even after-the-fact.  I
would send another email, place a phone call, and
then if you don't hear anything, chalk it up to =

experience.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:02:15 1999
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X-Path: villagesoftsmith.com!steve
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:05:19 -0700
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990811160519.00972380@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
References: <<199908111837.OAA10949@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
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At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Kris wrote:
>This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
>then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
>and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
>gotten around sooner or later.
>
> [clip]

I'm not taking sides in this fiasco, but I'd like to observe that this
thread has taken talking behind someone's back to an incredibly rude level.
   

I think the original complaint might have been a reasonable thing to air on
bungi if the artist weren't known to be part of the list.  I was floored to
read otherwise later in the day.  So...the conflict resolution strategy
here is to talk "behind-the-scenes" about someone but make sure they know
you're doing it AND lure others unwittingly into the game?   Forgive me if
I'm not impressed.

I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.

Steve

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:16:24 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!iluvscotties
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Fwd: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:08:15 -0400
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I _REALLY_ didn't appreciate the message below, and do not feel that it was
in any way warranted.   Having taken particular pains to avoid giving any
hint of the identity of the artist from whom I ordered, I don't see how I
can be guilty of "dragging this through the mud for all of Bungi to see".
Had I wanted to cause trouble, I would have specified the name of the
artist, and/or what it was that his/her URL had offered which no one else
seemed to include.

Instead, I was merely very upset about receiving something with a major
defect which I don't think the artist could possibly have missed, and
getting no response to my E-Mail, and very sincerely wanted to know how to
avoid this from happening in the future.

I don't think I deserved Tracy's attack, but am obviously not wanted here
so will agreeably uns*b from the list after posting this.  (Fortunately,
Eudora provides filters, so I can block any further attacks from her.)

But I do want to very sincerely thank all of the people who have generously
spent time and effort trying to help me.  From the bottom of my heart,
THANK YOU.

>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:02:29 -0500
>From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
>
>Shame on you!  I really would've tried more than "once" to get ahold of the
>artist before dragging this through the mud for all of Bungi to see.  Also,
>until you heard otherwise from the other person, it's best to give them the
>benefit of the doubt rather than jump to such an attack mode in a group where
>you know the artist also exists.  If you really felt the need to ask
advice, it
>would've been better to ask some of the people "off list" for their advice.
>People and how they deal with life and other people really disappoint me a lot
>of the time!

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:23:10 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:28:14 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811191609.00931100@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <<199908111837.OAA10949@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
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At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 , Kris wrote:
>This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud

I gave no hint to anyone (privately or publicly) as to the identity of the
individual from whom I had purchased the box.  No hints, no references,
nothing.  I didn't even allude to the fact that it was because you offered
a music box that I decided to order from you.

>That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
>here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
>clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
>look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
>you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
>requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
>artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
>problem.

It is very definitely a horrible splotch.  If memory serves, it was about
2x1 inches -- and UNMISTAKABLE from the front.  Period.  Believe me, I
WANTED the box to be okay, so kept trying to tell myself that it wouldn't
be noticeable, but it was no matter which angle I looked at it from.

>My first response was to just refund your money in full immediately
>because I am so hurt by your public smearing in this international
>forum of artists, but my husband pointed out that I worked hard on the
>box (which was $100 even, not well over) , and it cost me $30 for the
>music box part of the order, and I deserve to be compensated if
>possible.

Again, I think you have to give some hint to a person's identity for it to
constitute a "public smearing" -- none of which I did.  (And your quote to
me was over $ 100.)

>I have NOT been contacted by email

Well, I very definitely E-Mailed you.  Even giving you the benefit of a
doubt by assuming that you did not receive it, you could have simply
responded privately to my post and sought an amicable solution, explaining
that there was no blob when you sent it (after which I would have posted
that it had been amicably resolved and publicly apologized , instead of
your public post.

Personally, since it is hardly my fault that there is a BIG UNMISTAKABLE
ugly blob on the cover, I don't think that telling me to return it at my
own expense is a very good solution -- but then, if truth be told, I don't
see how you could possibly have missed that blob in the first place.  Never
mind the back of the pane; I mean from the front of the box.  That splotch
is the first thing you see <sigh>.




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:38:01 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:20:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.152040.0>
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Message text written by "Kris"
>
Please send the box back to me with a new postcard. I will take a look
at the box, see if I can figure out what happened, and I will repair
the box at no charge. If that is not acceptable please contact me in
any manner that you chose and I will make every effort to come to a
satisfactory arrangement with you.<

See, I told you so.... now let us know when everything
has turned out satisfactorily, okay?

Best,

Dani Greer (who really believes that most people are
good folk and that about anything turns out okay with
a good attitude.)
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 18:12:33 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NG: Where in the world is "E"
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:47:37 EDT
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Well, well Patrick,

The day of reckoning is nigh! Pull your glass tu-tu close together, 'cause 
there is definitely a chilly wind a-blowing in PA. The Viking has arrived, 
complete with Viking hat (with horns) and is out there looking for you!
There is also a resounding GGggrrr! resounding somewhere from an extremely 
hungry OES.
Let the hounds loose; it now time track down Mr. O'Tutu!
Find Boy!! Find!!
E....Brunnhilda, the Viking 

P.S.

Peggy dear, if you are reading this, please e-mail me here. Ilost my notebook 
in San Fransisco hotel, where all my back-up e-mail addresses are. They are 
sending it to me by snail mail, so it might take a couple of days......    :-<
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 18:43:51 1999
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From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:23:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17232.0>
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Precedence: bulk

I am just wondering, could the box have been fine when it was sent, but
perhaps the summer heat made the glue ooze so that by the time it got to
it's destination, it had the splotch?

Jerri




<SNIP>
> That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
> here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
> clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
> look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
> you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
> requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
> artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
> problem.
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:04:41 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17024.0>
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Hi everyone-

I had a quite nice experience this past
few months teaching a 3-semester hour
college class in stained glass... some of
you will remember that I was experimenting
teaching this from a business stand-point....
training my competition so-to-speak!;-)  It
was a pretty successful venture, lost about
half the class the first week because it
was just too much work for them (that's the
community college environment for you...
you get a real mixed-bag of students), but those
that stuck with it did some really nice windows
for the first time out!  I was really proud of =

them.

I'm teaching another class in the fall semester
that's billed as more of a sampler, so I thought
I would teach it from the stand-point of the
gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
participate in big wholesale shows like the
Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  =


Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
the whole procedure.  Finally, they themselves
will act like the jury and critique their own works.

Any comments?  Ideas?  Please be sure to
post to bungi so everyone can get the benefit
of your great comments.  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:07:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:13 -0400
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Message text written by Steve Wernecke
>I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.<

Bungi is just a reflection of human nature in =

general.... and life.  It'll take a negative turn
now and then through a misunderstanding....
that doesn't mean any of the folks are mean,
nasty, jerks or anything else like that.  It's =

simply a misunderstanding that has to be =

cleared up.... methinks the world would be
alot easier place to live if we all exercised =

some manners and didn't take everything
so dog-goned personally.... not to mention
being in such a hurry.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:19:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:22 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17022.0>
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
Well, I very definitely E-Mailed you.  Even giving you the benefit of a
doubt by assuming that you did not receive it, you could have simply
responded privately to my post and sought an amicable solution, explainin=
g
that there was no blob when you sent it (after which I would have posted
that it had been amicably resolved and publicly apologized , instead of
your public post.

Personally, since it is hardly my fault that there is a BIG UNMISTAKABLE
ugly blob on the cover, I don't think that telling me to return it at my
own expense is a very good solution -- but then, if truth be told, I don'=
t
see how you could possibly have missed that blob in the first place.  Nev=
er
mind the back of the pane; I mean from the front of the box.  That splotc=
h
is the first thing you see <sigh>.


<

Sigh... I'm about ready for this to go off-bungi...
anybody else share my view?!!

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fwd: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:17 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17017.0>
Precedence: bulk

I can see Tracy's side of this, too, and really tend
to agree.  And that is the voice of experience =

talking having jumped the gun myself a few years =

ago.  I ordered custom bevels from another bungian,
Michael Minchelli, of course it was a rush job, and
after sending specs and a deposit and letting
a bit of time lapse, I made a follow-up call to get
a job status.  Well, I couldn't get a return phone call
back so finally posted a rather upset message with
bungi!  Well, poor Mr. Minchelli was only on vacation
for a few days and we did receive the bevels in good
order.  All that anxiety and panic was for naught...
fortunately, Michael and I worked it out and we left
the situation with great respect for each other.... so
all was not lost.  I'm convinced we're given these
"opportunities" to demonstrate just how much class
(or lack thereof) we really have.  A few bungians =

have already demonstrated themselves rather
admirably.... including the said artist. (And just
for the record, Michael Minchelli makes a pretty
fabulous set of bevels if you ever need custom
work done.)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:38:05 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mar333Wood
From: Mar333Wood@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Good News
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:09:37 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.1937.0>
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Good evening everyone,
I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing 
Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to other 
bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age, 
my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area 
to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh, 
Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun. 

I think it's wonderful that there are still people out there who truly care 
for others. I've known Nadine for years and years and don't want to embarrass 
her, just wanted to share good news.

Now back to getting some glass ready for our Art Gallery's Grand Opening this 
Sunday.

Marti
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:39:14 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: iluvscotties@mindspring.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:33:25 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.13325.0>
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Well, 

You guys obviously found each other, so why don't you take it off-line now 
and try to come to some conclusion about how you will solve this.

Remember, Iluvscotties, this IS a board for glass craftsmen/women to discuss 
their techniques, not a board designed to sell products, or a consumer 
complaint forum.

good luck

HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:41:52 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:59:06 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.11596.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.53719.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Bob Duchesneau wrote:
>=20
> At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
> >Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
> >exact terms.  Very simple.
>=20
> Very hard to do also! I would be hard pressed to reduce my requirements=
 to
> one side of one typewritten page. If someone came at me with such a wan=
t
> list I would turn the job down flat. I do not cater to would be clients=
 that
> are pickey about things they likely know little about.
>=20
> Actually seeing a persons work is the best way to judge their ability.
> Failing that then references may be tried. BUT you can not get the list=
 of
> references from the artist. Fore if I were to give you a list of refere=
nces
> you can bet the list would be headed by my mother and followed up by th=
at
> wonderful person that almost jumped out of their shoes when I delivered=
 last
> month.
>=20
> Your best bet may be to go to an established stained glass outlet and t=
rust
> that they stay in business because they do a good job. Even so I would =
only
> order one before I placed the main order even if it cost me something i=
n a
> group discount. Many studios give a discount on repeat orders anyway. A=
fter
> all, you are then a proven good client and that is worth a lot.


Hi Bob, =20

[we'll have to get together and make a stab at solipsism <smile>, though
maybe my little sig from times past will enable the others to
distinguish us more easily.]

Actually I agree and disagree with what you said. =20

[How's that for clarity <G>]  =20

However, considering the unpleasant turn this particular thread has
taken [and this thread DEFINITELY needs to die], let's discuss these
points at a later date.  Agreed?  Maybe we can start a new thread about
this in a couple of weeks.

Best regards ........ <O=BFO> Bob (aka ez)
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:52:33 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:18:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.181835.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.17024.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Good idea, Dani.
I think a frame would be almost a "must". I would go one step farther and
have them make an avant garde frame and a very traditional one. If there
isn't time to actually construct both, I would have them draw them, complete
with glass suggestions, but at least build one. That way, they can deal with
marbles, globs, copper foil sheets, stabilizing, etc. Lots to learn on a
very quick project.
I love your idea about doing a jury application. Good, good idea!
Good luck.. Mary
----- Original Message -----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 9:00 PM
Subject: Need some gift market help


> Hi everyone-
>
> I had a quite nice experience this past
> few months teaching a 3-semester hour
> college class in stained glass... some of
> you will remember that I was experimenting
> teaching this from a business stand-point....
> training my competition so-to-speak!;-)  It
> was a pretty successful venture, lost about
> half the class the first week because it
> was just too much work for them (that's the
> community college environment for you...
> you get a real mixed-bag of students), but those
> that stuck with it did some really nice windows
> for the first time out!  I was really proud of =
>
> them.
>
> I'm teaching another class in the fall semester
> that's billed as more of a sampler, so I thought
> I would teach it from the stand-point of the
> gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
> of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
> participate in big wholesale shows like the
> Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
> have three assignments... developing three
> items for the gift market.... an original tree
> ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
> 3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
> hot?  =
>
>
> Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
> or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
> they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
> the whole procedure.  Finally, they themselves
> will act like the jury and critique their own works.
>
> Any comments?  Ideas?  Please be sure to
> post to bungi so everyone can get the benefit
> of your great comments.  Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:14:48 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mike Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:45:29 
Message-ID: <199908120052.SAA12211@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:04:14 -0400, Mike Savad wrote:

>Claudette Jaramillo wrote:
>> 
>> Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
>> bowl covered in kilnwash,
>> bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
>> pour it into a 5
>> gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
>> smaller the frit.."
>> 
>> I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
>> best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
>> any safety issues here?  thanks  cj
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>if i had to guess, whatch out for steam, spitting, and possible
>rejection. where goggles and the like. and don't burn yourself putting
>in the hot glass.
>
>---Mike Savad

Mike ,, believe it or not, we were fully prepared for the same thing.. imagine our surprise 
when the only thing that happened was... plop plop and it didn't look any different than it 
did when it went in.. we laughed and I reached in fully expecting hot water (not!) but it 
was warm.. and then I picked up a piece and put it on the table, fully disgusted that it 
didn't work.... and so, because I do these things, I picked it up and played with it.. and it 
crumbled nicely in my hand..

Invention and discovery!!!

Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:28:12 1999
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From: "laurie good" <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:24:56 PDT
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>From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com
>Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:05:19 -0700
>
>At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Kris wrote:
> >This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
> >then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
> >and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
> >gotten around sooner or later.
> >
> > [clip]
>
>I'm not taking sides in this fiasco, but I'd like to observe that this
>thread has taken talking behind someone's back to an incredibly rude level.
>
>
>I think the original complaint might have been a reasonable thing to air on
>bungi if the artist weren't known to be part of the list.  I was floored to
>read otherwise later in the day.  So...the conflict resolution strategy
>here is to talk "behind-the-scenes" about someone but make sure they know
>you're doing it AND lure others unwittingly into the game?   Forgive me if
>I'm not impressed.
>
>I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.
>
>Steve

I totally agree with you Steve.  Kris, I hope you and your customer can 
solve this in a civil matter outside of bungi.  My best to you.
>----
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_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:45:41 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Apology to Kris
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:08:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.16858.0>
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Thank you so much, you and everyone else who has taken the time to
write. I'm not upset with anyone on the list. I'm sure you figured the
customer was frustrated because the supplier really was being
unresponsive. It's just after a couple dozen emails, it got to me and
I couldn't help speaking up. I guess this is a lesson to us all to
take a deep breath as needed! I know you are all good people and you
try help folks :)
Kris

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:45:49 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:57:21 -0400
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I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
(1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
way not to 
      notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
don't think anyone could 
      possibly have missed it.
(2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
politely asking how to
      prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
wanted to purchase six 
      more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
of the artist, not even r
      referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
say that I had chosen her 
      because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
who I had purchased it 
      from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
problems form occurring in 
      the future.

So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?  

In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  

I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
in any way.
. 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:58:17 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Malicous E-Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:56:53 -0400
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I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
(1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
way not to 
      notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
don't think anyone could 
      possibly have missed it.
(2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
politely asking how to
      prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
wanted to purchase six 
      more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
of the artist, not even r
      referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
say that I had chosen her 
      because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
who I had purchased it 
      from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
problems form occurring in 
      the future.

So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?  

In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  

I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
in any way.
. 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:59:55 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Fraud / Vicous Hate Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:12:15 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811210136.009429e0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <<005301bee45c$51cbfdc0$bc318118@net.mediaone.net>>
Precedence: bulk

I just received a very nasty, vituperative E-Mail from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> about what a despicable person I am, and how I owe
Kris a public apology.

Since the box arrived with a BIG UGLY SPLOTCH on the front (and I don't see
how anyone could possibly have overlooked it), and I merely posted an
inquiry to find out how to avoid this sort of problem in the future (since
I want to purchase six additional boxes, albeit not from that artist), and
took particular pains to avoid any hint of the artist's identity (e.g., I
didn't even say "she", mention that I'd picked her's because of the music
box, etc. -- NOTHING), I do not see why _I_ owe anyone a public apology.
IMHO, Kris owes ME a huge apology for sending the box in that condition.

This hate mail has me even more upset than the defaced box does -- and all
the hate mail is doing is motivating me to notify the US Postal Dept of
Mail Fraud, Better Business Bureau, et al (since I don't see how she could
possibly have overlooked that big ugly splotch, etc).  

All you've taught me is that the bungi list is a closed group, that you'll
protect your own regardless of the problem(s) or issue(s) involved, that
sending damaged, defaced merchandise is fine as long as it is one of your
own, and that you will viciously attack anyone who dares to speak up, even
if they take pains not to name names or give any hint as to the artist's
identity.

The vicious Mary has done enough.  LEAVE ME ALONE.  You've succeeded in
driving me off the list and becoming afraid to order anything from you so
I'll never darken your paths again.  JUST LEAVE ME ALONE.



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 21:16:33 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:42:30 -0700
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Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk



Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:

> Good evening everyone,
> I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing
> Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to other
> bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age,
> my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area
> to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh,
> Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun.
>
>

Good evening to you too Marti and all,

Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a houseful of
gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all looking
forward to pictures I'll have you know :)

Marti, good luck with your grand opening!!!!


Pam



Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 21:27:18 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:52:12 -0700
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I second the motion for dead thread.

Although I must say bungi has been quite interesting lately :)

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:16:13 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:27:00 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.14270.0>
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>>I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  <<

Garden stakes are popular now. Sometimes they are called plant buddies and
may take the form of a butterfly on a piece of brass welding rod. But I have
found a site that takes this much further. Go to:
http://www.stonemanorlighting.com to see a very nice extension of the simple
garden stake. When you realize that the stems are 1/4" copper tubing
gracefully bent and the leaves are simply shaped from sheet copper these
seemingly hard projects get reduced to the student level.

I believe that the student could make their own designs and produce for
$5.00 in material, say, something like the dragonfly that retails for
$240.00 and is on special for $180.00.

Bob

Ps: You might make a few too!



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From: "Daniel" <dro@teleport.com>
To: "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:54:25 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.215425.0>
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>I second the motion for dead thread.
>
=====================================

All right!!  ..........enough now...

                    ........Don't make me get the hose....




Daniel

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:35:52 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:23:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.20232.0>
References: <<4.1.19990811225656.00946750@pop.mindspring.com>>
Precedence: bulk



> I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
> <embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.

OK... even though I thought this was over, following is my "vituperative"
letter.

>You just don't understand yet. It wasn't that you named Kris, or not. That
isn't the issue. The issue is that you knew she would see your post, and the
gathering storm of indignation that resulted. If I were Kris, I would be
totally upset and ashamed. Put yourself in her shoes. Like she said, whether
you said her name at the time or not, her identity was bound to surface.

Rather than unsubscribing, why not simply post an apology without any
further explanations? That is the harder thing to do, but it's more than
apparent that you were a bit premature in assuming she wouldn't get in touch
with you. And by saying that, I am not saying it was with malice, you just
simply didn't give it enough effort before you spoke.  Not the first time it
will happen, and not the last.  I don't think anyone thinks you deliberately
set out to slander Kris, or impugn her integrity, but unfortunately, it
escalated almost to that point, and remember.. she was reading all those
posts.
I bet once you consider it in a calmer frame of mind, you will understand
people's indignation, apologize for the oversight, and let it go.<

Enough said?
Mary




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:47:37 1999
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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:08:23 -0700
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References: <<1999Aug12.1937.0>>
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At 08:42 PM 8/11/99 -0700, Pamela Burns-Tappan wrote:
>
>
>Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Good evening everyone,
>> I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing
>> Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to
other
>> bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age,
>> my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area
>> to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh,
>> Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun.
>>
>>
>
>Good evening to you too Marti and all,
>
>Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a
houseful of
>gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all
looking
>forward to pictures I'll have you know :)

lol...some of us have to suffer for the cause!   

I'm glad I'm not one of them ;-)

Steve


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 23:08:54 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:54:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.21544.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.14270.0>>
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Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to make something
like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't begin to figure
THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as easy as it seems
to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. The vases look
like upside down witch's hats (for lack of a better description), made from
papier mache, painted bright colors with gold powders mixed in the varnish.
Really neat! The copper was a breeze to make into a coil in which to hold
the vases, but I haven't ventured into the sheets yet.
I am really interested in making some pathway lights though. Would anyone
care to enlighten (pun) me as to the wiring??
Thanks!
Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 04:22:28 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:02:40 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.11240.0>
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Hey! Don't knock community college students! I am a graduate of both a 
community college and a four-year university, (and I too teach, though not 
stained glass) and from my expierience, I found that the students at 
university were/are MUCH less into  school/classes/learning acdemics than 
those at cc, and much more into partying...  (just MHO that I couldn't not 
add here - sorry!)
Now for the other stuff:
Our local CC has a course close to what you are thinking of "Professional 
Crafting" or something - but not just for stained glass - all crafts - it's 
only from the business aspect and explains crafter's insurance, keeping 
acurate tax records, etc. If I can find the course description I will post it.

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com    
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 05:24:27 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Daniel <dro@teleport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:34:02 -0700
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I third that motion.  This thread has become unraveled.  Let it go.

CT

Daniel wrote:

> >I second the motion for dead thread.
> >
> =====================================
>
> All right!!  ..........enough now...
>
>                     ........Don't make me get the hose....
>
> Daniel
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 06:28:22 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: E-Tour.....
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:22:36 -0400
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Hi all....due to work schedule, I had to cancel my trip to Maryland this
week to meet with you all....I am so glad to see the pictures from "E"s
adventures while she is here....please continue and take some shots of the
panels you guys are making, too, [at the workshops].....you all have a great
time and I hope to meet with you all sometime later on...Abbie in
Va.....back to the grindstone!

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 07:58:31 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:33:04 -0400
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Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
> <embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
> (1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
> way not to
>       notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
> don't think anyone could
>       possibly have missed it.
> (2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
> politely asking how to
>       prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
> wanted to purchase six
>       more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
> of the artist, not even r
>       referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
> say that I had chosen her
>       because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
> who I had purchased it
>       from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
> problems form occurring in
>       the future.
> 
> So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
> DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
> reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?
> 
> In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
> customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.
> 
> Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
> I never again have anything to do with any of you.
> 
> I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
> LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
> on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
> SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
> in any way.
> .
> ----
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let me say i'm not on anyone's side...


first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.

secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
were not only ok, but the right size. 

what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box. 

samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
repacked it and sent it back out.


if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
now. 

from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
check their email all that often...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 08:58:26 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:25:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.72536.0>
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Message text written by Dani Greer
>I would teach it from the stand-point of the
gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
participate in big wholesale shows like the
Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  =3D<

No pre-conceived notion.  Let them do the market research
and come up with their own ideas.  That's what marketing is
all about!  Don't spoon-feed them, let them do their own research
and you'll be pleasantly suprised at how inventive some folk
are!

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 09:15:21 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:25:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.72538.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Dani Greer
>Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
the whole procedure.<

Speaking from a juror's point of view, I would not like it
if I received x number of applications where the applicant
actually had no plans for attending the show.  A lot of
application forms are contracts between the show producer
and the artist.  As in..."by submitting this application form you
are committing yourself to attend the show."  And a lot of the
shows have a heavy penalty for no-shows and people who
cancel.

So....be careful about how you set this up.  Don't have the
student mail in the application form if they are not serious.
It's perfectly OK for them to solicite application forms to be
sent to them.  In fact, I can mail you quite a few I've collected
over the years.  But don't have them mail in the filled-out
form if they are not serious about participating in the event.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:01:39 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:22:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.82236.0>
Precedence: bulk

try lighting glass works with fiber optics. see http://www.toddsfiber.com/
for a good source.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary [mailto:embee@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:54 PM
> To: Bungi
> Subject: Pathway lights
> 
> 
> Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to 
> make something
> like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't 
> begin to figure
> THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
> By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as 
> easy as it seems
> to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. 
> The vases look
> like upside down witch's hats (for lack of a better 
> description), made from
> papier mache, painted bright colors with gold powders mixed 
> in the varnish.
> Really neat! The copper was a breeze to make into a coil in 
> which to hold
> the vases, but I haven't ventured into the sheets yet.
> I am really interested in making some pathway lights though. 
> Would anyone
> care to enlighten (pun) me as to the wiring??
> Thanks!
> Mary
> 
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:32:23 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:20:06 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.5206.0>
Precedence: bulk

Is this a beginner's class?  Or is it a more advanced class?  From a
beginner's perspective, I have two conflicting feelings.

I think the thought of knowing that my "learning" work would be judged would
intimidate the h*ll out of me!  But I know from previous experience that if
given this as a criterion of the class, I would force myself to rise to the
occasion.  When I took the advanced class, my instructor coerced me to put
two pieces of mine in a juried show (no one else was encouraged)...I was
glad she did....AFTER!  but my stomach hurt for the whole week before.
Having work judged is scary stuff for a person who does not percieve
themselves as an artist but as an apprentice.  I think you will need to hold
a few hands... and have the pepto handy for those of us that show our fear
in the intestinal tract!!!  However, the judges at the show, were very kind
and gracious and gave me suggestions on how to improve my work.  One of my
pieces made it, and one did not.  Over all I saw this as a positive
experience, so please understand, I am not negative here.  But I want you to
know that some of your students may throw up.  cj

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:49:46 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
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Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:36:44 -0500
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Mike Savad wrote:
>
> let me say i'm not on anyone's side...

But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!


> 
> first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
> but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.
> 
> secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
> shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
> damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
> were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
> notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
> were not only ok, but the right size.
> 
> what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
> water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
> newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box.
> 
> samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
> through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
> repacked it and sent it back out.
> 
> if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
> bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
> never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
> now.
> 
> from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
> respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
> what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
> check their email all that often...
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> 2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> too and A Look at Sky City
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 11:39:30 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:02:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.4216.0>
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At last another thread........
Some of us do REAL well under pressure, others cower and cringe.
If "doing" glass becomes a source of stress and causes a system upset
(yours).....WHY??????????????????volunteer to put yourself in that position.
Previous posts of mine also questioned the "credentials" of the jury.
The ultimate judge is (if you are doing this for financial gain) the person
with the money who buys it........All the praise and kudos and $3.00 buys
coffee (starbucks please,,,,,have stock in it)........without
$3.00..........hard to buy coffee!
When I was teaching (may be back at it soon), I encouraged my students to
try and sell their work, or at least test the commercial areas.....compare
theirs to the stuff out there and see the differences....also keep time on a
project to see if it commercially viable......100's of hours for a few
hundred dollars just does not make it.
this should stir the pot a bit.......enjoy, H


weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:00:41 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:02:20 -0400
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Charles R. Clark wrote:
> 
> Mike Savad wrote:
> >
> > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
> 
> But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!
> 
> >
> > first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
> > but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.
> >
> > secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
> > shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
> > damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
> > were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
> > notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
> > were not only ok, but the right size.
> >
> > what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
> > water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
> > newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box.
> >
> > samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
> > through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
> > repacked it and sent it back out.
> >
> > if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
> > bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
> > never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
> > now.
> >
> > from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
> > respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
> > what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
> > check their email all that often...
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> > --
> > Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > 2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> > Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> > too and A Look at Sky City
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


alright so it does, it is on the artists side. but giving benifit of the
doubt as well. i'm still having problems imagining what the box looks
like. if i were the artist i'd be very curiuos as too what it looks
like. what could have caused the problem. if the glue soaked into the
postcard and effected the ink in some way. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:06:39 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Apology to Kris
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:04 -0400
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Message text written by "Kris"
>Thank you so much, you and everyone else who has taken the time to
write. I'm not upset with anyone on the list. I'm sure you figured the
customer was frustrated because the supplier really was being
unresponsive. It's just after a couple dozen emails, it got to me and
I couldn't help speaking up. I guess this is a lesson to us all to
take a deep breath as needed! I know you are all good people and you
try help folks :)
Kris

----<

And you've demonstrated to us what a class
act and professional you really are.... glad you're
part of the group.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:22:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:42 -0400
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)? =
 =


In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheatin=
g.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make su=
re
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  =


I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not onl=
y
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak =
up
in any way.
. =

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Stop yelling, it's impolite.

Now, let's get back to glass so that Glenna doesn't
shut the list down.

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:31:04 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Dani:  Was really intrigued about your approach at the community
college.  I am starting a class this Fall but this will be in Basic
Stained Glass using the copperfoil method.  Tell us something about your
program.  From a business standpoint were you students advanced?
beginners? or what.  Anytime you teach you automatically risk training
your competition.  But...there are a lot of windows out there!

I also do an advanced class at the AFB where we do 'potpourri.'  Students
pick three projects, i,e, panel lamp, boxes, kaleidoscopes, mobiles,
mosaics, etc.  Currently we are doing mosaic birdhouses.  But for the
college I am expecting over 20 students, twice as many as I usually work
with.  But I am looking forward to it and suspect there will be many
challenges.  Do you provide the materials and supplies?  Peggy

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:44:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:39 -0400
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Message text written by "Christie A. Wood"
>Speaking from a juror's point of view, I would not like it
if I received x number of applications where the applicant
actually had no plans for attending the show.  A lot of
application forms are contracts between the show producer
and the artist.  As in..."by submitting this application form you
are committing yourself to attend the show."  And a lot of the
shows have a heavy penalty for no-shows and people who
cancel.<

Don't forget I know everyone in town! Been part of the
gallery scene forever... nobody says no to us!  My last
class, the students down-loaded entries from the 'net...
they got double points for utilizing the internet.  And,
remember, I'm just asking them to get entries... the
actual jurying process is in-classroom... a lets-pretend
situation.  I'm not asking anything from the galleries
except their actual jury forms.... the students aren't really
submitting work for consideration.  Unless, of course,
someone really gets into it and does so seriously.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:48:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:17 -0400
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There is nothing wrong with your post, Mary,
if someone really wanted sane, professional
advice.... something which many of us on bungi
gladly give and receive when they have a =

challenge like this.  It is business-related and
consequently glass-related... I think the
balanced and professional have shown =

themselves very nicely... hope I don't receive
a letter-bomb from some nutcase for that =

comment!  There are some weird folks out there
these days. =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:02:33 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:21:30 -0400
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The artist did not get the email stating there was a problem. The
customer freaked out and posted to the list. Things went you know
where in a handbasket very quickly....  Everyone is reported to have
survived. End of story. If you want to discuss this any further write
me off the list. I'm sure the others won't mind :o)
Kris, the artist in question

>
>
> Mike Savad wrote:
> >
> > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
>
> But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:03:02 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com" <HiimLaura@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:23 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com
>add here - sorry!)
Now for the other stuff:
Our local CC has a course close to what you are thinking of "Professional=
 =

Crafting" or something - but not just for stained glass - all crafts - it=
's

only from the business aspect and explains crafter's insurance, keeping =

acurate tax records, etc. If I can find the course description I will pos=
t
it.
<

Thanks, that's what this CC has... it's called an Artisan's program
here and includes S.G., jewelry, fiber, ceramics, etc.  It includes
about everything, though I'm the only one who teaches the
business angle since I'm a former public accountant... can't
resist.  Some of the other teachers find it a bit intimidating.

As far as my comments about community colleges... well, let
me explain further.  I don't think the colleges set a very
high standard.... that isn't to say alot of students don't set
their own goals, they do.  But in Colorado, I was told flat-out
when I mentioned the importance of "raising the bar", that
there IS not bar in the community college environment.
Oh, well.  And it proved itself... 16 folks enrolled in this
class. Ten dropped in the first two weeks.  What does =

that say?  I think what would work better for me is
to give workshops to folks out there who really really
care... would make more money, too. ;-)

best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:18:28 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:56:30 -0400
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Message text written by "Claudette Jaramillo"
>Is this a beginner's class?  Or is it a more advanced class?  From a
beginner's perspective, I have two conflicting feelings.
<

It's a stained glass sampler for folks who may
never take another S.G. class... but, remember,
it's all make-believe.  They are not really dealing
with other galleries after they have gotten the
entry form... from that point on, we do role-playing.
WE are the artists and the jury and gallery owners....
but, it's a college class for credit.... so I feel I
should teach it from more than a hobby-perspective.

And no hand-holding in my class!  I'm a real slave-
driver!  This is college, we're all adults.  If you
wanna throw-up, the bathroom is down the hall....


LOL,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:25:14 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bottle Cutting 
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:31:48 -0400
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A friend of mine wants to cut the top off a glass 5 gallon water bottle.
He asked if I could do it but I haven't a clue how.

Off the top of my head it would have to be sawed off not scored and broken.
But where would you find a saw that could do it?

Any suggestions?

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:26:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:12 -0400
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>Ps: You might make a few too!<

When pigs fly!!  But, garden stakes are a great
idea... and Mary suggested frames which I hadn't
thought of either... and love those prices.

Thanks,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:35:41 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:08 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.10378.0>
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Message text written by Pamela Burns-Tappan
>
Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a
houseful of
gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all=

looking
forward to pictures I'll have you know :)
<

I feel sorry for all the women, too... I've heard Steve
is quite the charmer! ;-)

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:53:49 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:14:28 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.61428.0>
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>>Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to make something
like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't begin to figure
THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as easy as it seems
to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. <<

The lighting used is from a set of 12 volt lawn lights- the kind that come 8
or 12+ to a string and run off a transformer. Sometimes called Malibu
lights.

The copper leaves found at: http://www.stonemanorlighting.com are likely
made from about 18 gauge copper sheeting. I recently purchased a piece 20" X
12" for $8.00. It can be cut with a good sharp pair of shop scissors. You
can tin it with solder or not and use hammering or decorative soldering and
patina to achieve professional looking effects. Heavier weight copper sheet
can be a pain to work.

I made a 3-D sheet copper quail weather vane about 16 years ago and it is
just as good as new.

Bob

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:09:45 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Kris <kristc@home.com>, Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:26:40 -0400
Message-ID: <37B32DE0.2AA9DCB7@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Aug12.102130.0>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
Precedence: bulk

Hi Kris,

You're a class act.  I think you should know that
when "ScottieLover" first posted to the list, he/she
had NOT EVEN TRIED to contact you, as you'll see in
her reply to me (below).  I'm the person who first
responded to "ScottieLover" asking whether he/she 
had tried to contact the artist. And he/she admitted
he/she hadn't.

So, he/she changed the story in mid-stream.  I don't
want to speculate why, but it's an easy guess. 

I'm posting this to bungie and to you, because even
though this thread should go bye-bye, no one 
mentioned or called ScottieLover on the change of story 
and I'd feel bad if I didn't point it out.

Best regards,
PJ Jellison

> From: 
>                   PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
>                                                                                                                                                       Wed 11:34 AM
> 
>   Subject: 
>                   Re: Custom orders by mail?
>            To: 
>                   Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>          CC: 
>                   glass@bungi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your point.  I guess I just always try to give folks the
> benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that I shouldn't!  My
> thought on this was, sometimes glue changes its look or soaks
> through as it ages or if it gets hot; what if the artist used glue on 
> the back of the postcard to attach it, then finished the box and 
> shipped it -- and then the glue seeped through in the heat of a UPS 
> truck or such? 
> 
> I have absolutely no experience with making these boxes, and 
> I'd be the last person to want to excuse truly shoddy
> work -- I'm just suggesting that there may be scenarios we haven't
> thought of, in which the smudge wouldn't have been visible to the 
> artist.  In any case, I sure hope you can get it resolved amicably 
> with him/her/them.
> 
> Cheers,
> PJ Jellison
> 
> 
> 
> Scottie Lover wrote:
> > 
> > At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
> > >Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're
> > >unhappy with the work?
> > 
> > I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
> > artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
> > that anyone would be unhappy with it.
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much for your great help.
> 


> From: 
>                   PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
>                                                                                                                                                       Wed 11:13 AM
> 
>   Subject: 
>                   Re: Custom orders by mail?
>            To: 
>                   Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>          CC: 
>                   glass@bungi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
> unhappy with the work?  I would hope that a firm, detailed,
>  but evenly-phrased (i.e. not overly emotional or angry) complaint 
> would get your problem resolved and your box re-done with a new card.  
> 
> I would be upset too if I received a piece of work like
> that, but I think the right thing to do would be to first try to 
> resolve it directly with the artist (and/or the vendor if you 
> bought it through a third party). I'll bet (and hope) he/she/they 
> will be eager to make it right.
> 
> PJ Jellison
> 
> Scottie Lover wrote:
> > 
> > I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> > someone on the Internet.
> > It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> > that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> > hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> > S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> > discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> > smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> > cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> > I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> > only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> > him/er the postcard.)
> > 
> > Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> > had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> > present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> > postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> > the first got ruined).
> > 
> > Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> > six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> > first to see how this particular artist does!)
> > 
> > In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> > or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> > 
> > Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 


Kris wrote:
> 
> The artist did not get the email stating there was a problem. The
> customer freaked out and posted to the list. Things went you know
> where in a handbasket very quickly....  Everyone is reported to have
> survived. End of story. If you want to discuss this any further write
> me off the list. I'm sure the others won't mind :o)
> Kris, the artist in question
> 
> >
> >
> > Mike Savad wrote:
> > >
> > > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
> >
> > But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:17:26 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Bottle Cutting 
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.124330.0>
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i have an easier way.

tie a length of twine around the bottle where you want the cut. soak it in
lighter fluid. light it. after it burns down, run a piece of ice over the
string. it should crack exactly where the twine was.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Modiano, Victor [mailto:vmodiano@ctronsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:32 AM
> To: 'bungi'
> Subject: Bottle Cutting 
> 
> 
> A friend of mine wants to cut the top off a glass 5 gallon 
> water bottle.
> He asked if I could do it but I haven't a clue how.
> 
> Off the top of my head it would have to be sawed off not 
> scored and broken.
> But where would you find a saw that could do it?
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Vic M.
> vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:44:18 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: allastair duncan
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:07:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.13736.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.61428.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

did you hear the news? he's going to jail for 25 years for buying stolen
tiffany window from a grave robber then selling it to someone else. if
you don't know him buy name, he's the guy who wrote all of those really
good tiffany books. 

the news said that he bought this one window for $30,000 then later sold
it for $200,000.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:15:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:44:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.134457.0>
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Message text written by PJ Jellison
>called ScottieLover<

Would also like to know the person's
*real name so that I can avoid any
contact in *real life.... =


Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:47:35 1999
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X-Path: fuse.net!afields
From: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Address Stones-Garden Stones
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:11:29 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.141129.0>
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone made any of the address stones?  I made one yesterday, and
had several pieces of glass shift.  The whole thing was then worthless.
Add to that the cost of using 33 cups of Diamond Crete, a pretty
expensive flop.  I taped the contact paper to the top of the form (per
instructions), and have a feeling that the bottom of the form was where
the problem lies.  I've made many garden stones and have never had this
problem, but this was the first time I had ever used this particular
form.  Any suggestions or tips would be appreciated.

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:59:45 1999
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X-Path: cap.lampman.sk.ca!dmbarker
From: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
To: "Glasslist" <Glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:05:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.10529.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.14270.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
kit... from the look on the fellow's face.

Thanks in advance!

Dawn

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:09:47 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: allastair duncan
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:40:25 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.144025.0>
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Message text written by Mike Savad
> he's the guy who wrote all of those really
good tiffany books. =

<

Well, I wouldn't go that far.... they have good
pictures though the accuracy of the writing is
questionable.  Remember, he was the Tiffany
expert at Christie's for years and his books
were meant to prime the pumps.  If you want
to read a couple of good books about Tiffany,
try Robert Koch's "Rebel in Glass" and "The
Last Tiffany" by Michael Burlingham (or is
it Burlingame, I don't recall).  Both give a much
more realistic portrayal of LCT and of his father,
Charles (he of silver-fortune fame).  Wish there
was a really good book about all his marvelous
designers, especially the women.  Did you know
that he did not do much actual designing? Even
less actual work like fabrication.  He was the
artistic director.  =


As for Duncan, well, I've heard that rumours have
abounded for years about his behind-the-scenes
activities.  What I'd like to know is what happened
to the actual grave-robbers?  Was this a government
sting operation with agents role-playing as the
thieves?  Just hopelessly curious.... seems odd that
there aren't some more prosecutions.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:17:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Address Stones-Garden Stones
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:04:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.15457.0>
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Message text written by Arleen Fields
>the cost of using 33 cups of Diamond Crete,<

There is lots of good information in the archives
about better and less expensive alternatives to
this brilliant marketing scheme.... (oops,did I =

say that!?)  Don't do these stones myself, but
maybe some of the others who do would be =

kind enough to post their formulas again.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:21:30 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:40:28 -0400
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Message text written by "Kris"
>I don't feel comfortable posting anyone's name on a public list
without their consent, so anyone who wants to know please contact me
privately. Thanks :)
Kris<

I don't want to know that badly!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:49:50 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:09:17 -0400
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I don't feel comfortable posting anyone's name on a public list
without their consent, so anyone who wants to know please contact me
privately. Thanks :)
Kris

Would also like to know the person's
*real name so that I can avoid any
contact in *real life....

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
www.igga.org/greer/

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 17:00:44 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:24:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.152428.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:
> 
> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Dawn
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


depends how big. any craft store will have the 1'x3' roll (for copper
tooling). and you may be able to buy it in 4'x8' sheets (though you may
have to contact a metal shop teacher on where they get it).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:07:30 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: allastair duncan/writting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:18:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.111816.0>
Precedence: bulk

Perhaps Duncan will have time write more accurately from a cell?
I have some info on his "grave-robbing".
Anyone know who Clara Driscoll is?????? hint Dragonfly
Perhaps those of you remember the discussion of "Dale" should ask him about
the "family" history! (sorry could not resist)...
burn away..........H
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:31:00 1999
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X-Path: citynet.net!khupp
From: Kathy <khupp@citynet.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:35:32 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.173532.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I ordered some from American Science and Surplus Company. They do have a
website, but I don't have the URL. The sheets were fairly thin, about 6"x12"
and cost approximately $2-$4 each. Can't remember exactly. Nice quality
stuff.

Hope this helps,  Kathy

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:

> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:34:08 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Sheila" <sheila_oh@yahoo.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Pathway lights URL
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:40:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.174049.0>
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For those who have asked for the URL, here it is... enjoy.
http://www.stonemanorlighting.com/htmls/products.html

Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:09:57 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: allastair duncan/writting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:30:04 -0400
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Message text written by "Howard"
>Anyone know who Clara Driscoll is?????? hint Dragonfly<

She was the designer of the dragonfly lamp, in fact....
Alice Northrup was my favorite designer on Tiffany's
staff and rumour has it that some of the women =

designers made around ten grand a year.... quite a
sum for women in those days.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:27:08 1999
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From: Dayle <dayle@cyberbeach.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:30:12 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.183012.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Organization: Celestial Luminosities
Precedence: bulk

Try a plumbing/heating outfit.  I purchased some there once.  They weren't
accustomed to selling it to the general public and didn't quite know what to
charge so just gave some to me to fool around with.

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:

> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:44:31 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Intrastar" <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Very nice page
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:04:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.1945.0>
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I am sending the URL to a very nice stained glass page. I really like the
simplicity of the designs!
http://www.stic.net/users/kodom/
Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 21:47:46 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bottle Cutting/faux pas, not for the shy
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:04:26 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.14426.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.124330.0>>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk

Spitzer, Charlie wrote:

> i have an easier way.
>
> tie a length of twine around the bottle where you want the cut. soak it in
> lighter fluid. light it. after it burns down, run a piece of ice over the
> string. it should crack exactly where the twine was.



Whoa!! Who in the heck would have thought of that!! Definitely not me,
excellent tip and I thank you very much for it. I was about to purchase a
bottle cutter but to heck with that!

As an added note: (Not meant for the shy or easily shocked)

Today I sat here looking at some of the e-mail on certain subjects I've
received from bungi and have been hmm, the words, ahh, amazed, yes amazed, as
I'm sure some others have been too. The word "faux pas" sticks in my mind. So
today, dear friends of bungi I will give you my faux pas of the day. It goes
as follows:

My water heater went out today. So off to the electric store I go to purchase
a new one. Of course I shop at an upper scale store because I know I will
receive the utmost in service from the employees there.

I find my brand new water heater in aisle C where Bob (the utmost employee)
greets me and we strike up a conversation. First talking about the water
heater then off onto different subjects, you know chit chatting. Bob looks at
me square in the eyes and says "Mrs. Tappan, I think your nipples may be
rusty."

"What? What did you just say to me?" as I repeat the above sentence to Bob.
"Why you *$(#%), What is your problem?"

"Mrs. Tappan," says Bob, "I was talking about your water heater."

"Oh"

I'll end with this. I have a new water heater and a new understanding of water
heater parts :) And would much rather have a faux pas on bungi be humorous,
not at the cost of feelings and lost subscribers. So goes my two cents. And
yes, I know where my delete key is :)

P.S. Bob and I did get a good hearty laugh out of the misunderstanding but boy
was I embarrassed.

Sincerely,

Pam






Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 23:24:15 1999
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X-Path: island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@island.net
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Bottle Cutting/faux pas, not for the shy
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:17:34 -0700
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>Today I sat here looking at some of the e-mail on certain subjects I've
>received from bungi and have been hmm, the words, ahh, amazed, yes amazed, as
>I'm sure some others have been too. The word "faux pas" sticks in my mind. So
>today, dear friends of bungi I will give you my faux pas of the day. It goes
>as follows:
>
>My water heater went out today. So off to the electric store I go to purchase
>a new one. Of course I shop at an upper scale store because I know I will
>receive the utmost in service from the employees there.
>
>I find my brand new water heater in aisle C where Bob (the utmost employee)
>greets me and we strike up a conversation. First talking about the water
>heater then off onto different subjects, you know chit chatting. Bob looks at
>me square in the eyes and says "Mrs. Tappan, I think your nipples may be
>rusty."
>

Pamela...how many times do I have to tell you not to borrow Elisabeth's
viking outfit and leave it out in the rain :)

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 23:59:10 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Question...
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.162646.0>
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Hi all =)

::still blushing from the rusty ahem...):: hehe

Anyway, my question is this. I just visited the website from the last
post, and noticed that most of the pictures listed were recently for
sale on EBay. Not just similar windows, but the exact ones on the site.
It may very well be that the maker of this website either sold or
bought these English Antique windows. Im not bringing this up for that
reason. But if they weren't, how would that work? What is the ethic
there? I saw several windows I really liked on EBay, I even saved
several pictures because i liked the rosette on this or the flow of the
ribbon on that. Would it be because the patterns are antique, that they
are assumed uncopyrighted? I hadnt really thought about it until I saw
that site. What are your thoughts. ps...that English Antique is just
lovely...I plan to fill my neighborhood with it!
chris
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 04:44:52 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Chris Kaiser" <christkaiser@yahoo.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Question...
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:32:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.33235.0>
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It could be that the windows on the website ARE the ones on Ebay. To place a
pic on Ebay, you have to have a website on which to leave the file. So, this
person may be storing his images there.
Other than that, I would assume that a very old window is most likely not
under copyright. But to do an exact copy of ANY other person's work is, as
was pointed out to me on this list, unethical.
Good question you brought up.


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 06:26:14 1999
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From: "Russ Howe" <russ.serotta@netheaven.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BEE569.E08FCD80
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Glenna,

Please unsubscribe me from the list

Thanks,

Russ

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Glenna,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Please unsubscribe me from the =
list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Russ</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 06:39:23 1999
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X-Path: telebot.com!debbiesgarden
From: DebbieT <debbiesgarden@telebot.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Alastair Duncan
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:09:31 -0400
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For those of you interested in the story about the Tiffany Window
thefts, the New York Times has a story at this url:

http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+118+0+wAAA+alastair%7EDuncan

It is easier to cut and paste, or just do a search at www.nyt.com
Debbie T in Baltimore

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 08:00:00 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:24:11 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.62411.0>
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I added my signature this morning to a box that will be in our guild's
member show at Meredith's from 8/22-Oct. 2.  I have to submit it
tomorrow.

I didn't have the speed up on my Dremel and it barely showed. You saw it
coming...I went over it and now it looks like h*ll. plus, it was 6 in
the morning & was up till 1:30 finishing it. So, what else is new...(NY
accent here)

Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
you use? What bit?

KSee (here till 4:30 then on to Nadine's)


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 08:59:55 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:40:51 -0400
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ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:
> 
> I added my signature this morning to a box that will be in our guild's
> member show at Meredith's from 8/22-Oct. 2.  I have to submit it
> tomorrow.
> 
> I didn't have the speed up on my Dremel and it barely showed. You saw it
> coming...I went over it and now it looks like h*ll. plus, it was 6 in
> the morning & was up till 1:30 finishing it. So, what else is new...(NY
> accent here)
> 
> Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
> you use? What bit?
> 
> KSee (here till 4:30 then on to Nadine's)
> 
> ----
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so what does it look like now? can you make the mistake into a fancy
border (to make it look like you meant to do it). make little curly q's,
and so forth. i personally use an electric engraver, it does'nt want to
wonder on it's own (no rotation).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 10:34:08 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:17:12 -0700
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>>Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
you use? What bit?<<

I would say you are stuck with it. Even if you could buff it away it would
leave a gauged area that would show badly.

What about a bit of overlay here. Shape a piece of foil to a lady bug or
something and solder it up.

Next time practice before you try to engrave. Even cheap engravers do a
decent job with practice. It would also be a good idea to engrave the glass
before installing it.

Bob


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 11:39:51 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:15:22 -0400
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>are assumed uncopyrighted?<

The designs probably are public domain....

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 12:07:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Question...
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:15:25 -0400
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Message text written by "Mary"
>But to do an exact copy of ANY other person's work is, as
was pointed out to me on this list, unethical.<

Mmmm, that may be a bit strong.... I would certainly =

consider doing an exact duplicate of, say, a 13th
century window.  But, I would also be sure to mention
that it was exactly that..... would be a marvelous
marketing angle, no?  That I could duplicate the work
of a 13th century glazier.  By the way, copying an
old piece is a really good way to learn about glass
and techniques.  I highly recommend it.  The ethical
consider becomes very serious when one copies
the work of a living artist....

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 12:38:48 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Subject: What is English Antique?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:45:28 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.204528.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.162646.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

As one who is living in what the people from the USA often call England
(U.K.), (actually the Scottish part)  What is English Antique?
Steve
In message <1999Aug12.162646.0@?>, Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
writes
>
>Hi all =)
>
>::still blushing from the rusty ahem...):: hehe
>
>Anyway, my question is this. I just visited the website from the last
>post, and noticed that most of the pictures listed were recently for
>sale on EBay. Not just similar windows, but the exact ones on the site.
>It may very well be that the maker of this website either sold or
>bought these English Antique windows. Im not bringing this up for that
>reason. But if they weren't, how would that work? What is the ethic
>there? I saw several windows I really liked on EBay, I even saved
>several pictures because i liked the rosette on this or the flow of the
>ribbon on that. Would it be because the patterns are antique, that they
>are assumed uncopyrighted? I hadnt really thought about it until I saw
>that site. What are your thoughts. ps...that English Antique is just
>lovely...I plan to fill my neighborhood with it!
>chris
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:03:51 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: English Antique
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
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Im sorry about the generalization. I'm sure that "English Antique" is
by no means an official name for the style I was referring to. It was
simply that the windows on EBay all came from England, and were all
pre-1900. If you visit the site mentioned earlier in the thread, there
are some examples of what I meant. But to serve as a description, they
are a kind of simplified victorian look...using mainly mixtures of
textured clear glass, with cathedral glass accents. Many of the motifs
are floral, using that Art Deco style rosette for example. If anyone
knows of the "real" name for this style, I would be interested to know.

Take care all, and here's to hoping our nipples stay rust free forever!
=)
chris

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:07:35 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:24:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.42434.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Precedence: bulk

For the best price, first look under recycling in the yellow pages.  Most
big cities will have a few that specialize in metal and they often keep
scrap copper, brass, etc. separate.  Give 'em a call and see.  I get almost
all my copper and brass sheet from the local metal recycler.

If you can't find it there, look under both "copper" and "metal".  There are
usually a few listed.

You can also try both plumbers and roofers.  Both sometimes use copper
flashing.  You may even have specialty roofers in you area that do copper
roofs.  Sheets of copper roofing are often the perfect thickness for forming
to a shape yet still being stiff enough to hold the shape.  This is also
usually the least expensive source for "new" copper sheet.

By the way - do you know how to work copper?

Most copper you buy will have lost it's anneal in the extrusion/sheeting
process.  It will be very stiff and impossible to work in this condition.
It may be so brittle that it will crack as you attempt to bend it.  You need
to heat it to restore the anneal so it is soft enough to work.

Heat the copper with a torch or kiln until it just begins to glow red.  If
working with a torch on a large sheet it is perfectly fine to heat one
section then move on to the next while the other cools off.  In copper the
temperature stress of doing this is not high enough to hurt the anneal.
Let the sheet cool normally in air.  (Attempting to quick cool it with water
only removes the anneal again).  Copper and brass retain their anneal at
room temperature (unlike ferrous metals which need to be worked hot).

As you work the copper, it will once again lose it's anneal as the bending
and hammering forces the metallic crystals back into alignment.  Areas of
the sheet will suddenly become stiff and difficult to work again.  You must
reheat the sheet again at this point to re-anneal it.  It is also perfectly
acceptable to just reheat the areas of the sheet you still need to work on
and leave others stiff.  In fact this is a common practice to ensure
finished areas retain their shape while working on other areas.

Once you are done shaping the piece it is common practice to intentionally
remove the anneal so the sheet is once again stiff and retains it's shape.
The simplest method is to simply lightly pound the sheet all over with your
hammer.  This is called peening and is the original purpose for the peening
head on a ball-peen hammer.

You can also intentionally temperature shock the sheet by heating it and
dunking it in cold water.  Special affects and finishes can also be achieved
through chemicals in this water bath and/or dunking in oil rather than
water.  However, I suggest reading a book or taking a class if you want to
get fancy with this.

(Just as a note: In many of my university metal working classes it was a
common practice to use used motor oil for this purpose because it was
essentially free and left a really great finish on the copper.  However,
from what I have read about the cancer causing byproducts that build up in
used motor oil, I would suggest caution.  I am also not sure of the fire
hazard with this.  In university we did some pretty dumb things in the name
of art.)

----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
To: Glasslist <Glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Copper Sheeting


> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:41:13 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:25:50 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.122550.0>
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We haven't heard much about
Elisabeth since she left for PA!!
Where is she.... how's it going??
Can't we get an update straight
from the horse's mouth so-to-speak?
Has Glass Visions happened already??
How did that go?  How are the
workshops going?  Doesn't anyone
have a computer??

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:11:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:46 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.124046.0>
Precedence: bulk

Adhesive-backed copper sheets are also
available through our wholesalers (and,thus,
I presume also from retailers).... made by
the same folks who make the copper foil
tape... come in 12" x 12" size.  No prep
needed and they're quite easy to work.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:28:24 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Another glass assignment
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:48 -0400
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Hi everyone,

As another homework assignment in my
fall class, I thought I would have students
check and report on various web sites.
Rather than check the archives, how about
if everyone sends me their URL and maybe
another favorite or two.... related to glass,
of course.  I know someone on bungi started
a list ages of go, but I'm sure some of that
is out-of-date by now.  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:39:39 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: English Antique
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:43 -0400
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>simplified victorian look...using mainly mixtures of
textured clear glass, with cathedral glass accents. Many of the motifs
are floral,<

Sounds Edwardian although the rosette makes
me think of the Glasgow rose of McIntosh fame...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 15:48:05 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:charles@warner-criv.com" <charles@warner-criv.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:20:02 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:charles@warner-criv.com
>Has Glass Visions happened already??<

Ha, had you worried, didn't I??  Thanks for the info
and I'm hoping folks like you and Jenna will take a
few moments while E. is with you to keep the rest
of the world posted on day-to-day happenings.  Even
better, get some photos and write up a report for
the Fall issue of Common Ground:Glass, all you =

members of IGGA!  I'll be doing #4 in the glass
painting series with photos of E. and some fellow
bungians working at my studio.  Actually, it wouldn't
hurt Elisabeth to get on a computer and check in
with us!  How about it?

Getting curiouser by the minute,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 16:03:11 1999
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From: "Charles Warner" <charles@warner-criv.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:28:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.142828.0>
References: <<1999Aug13.122550.0>>
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Dani:

Has Glass Visions happened already??
How did that go?  

Time goes fast but not quite that fast!  2 weeks to go...

GlassVisions is August 28th & 29th, the site is continually
being updated at http://www.GlassVisions.com

Join old glass friends and make new ones!

Charles Warner
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 16:20:07 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:17:26 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Dani:  Had an E mail this morning!  She has arrived in Philadelphia and
was collected by Lenore and Susan Albright.  Her Maryland workshop is this
weekend.  That's just about all she said.  I have pictures being developed
that I will send to Steve Werneke to put online.  Also, isn't she supposed
to be at your place real soon?  If so, let me know and I will send copies
of the pictures to her at your address.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 16:42:36 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:53:47 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.85347.0>
References: <<199908131640_MC2-80EF-F150@compuserve.com>>
Precedence: bulk

I was thinking heavier copper sheet, but of course you are right.  Previous
in the threads was talk of heavier copper leaves for outdoor lights and
other outdoor stuff.  I may have been confusing the various threads.

So, I think whichever the person was looking for, we have covered just about
all the bases...

----- Original Message -----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tim & Adriana Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Cc: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting


> Adhesive-backed copper sheets are also
> available through our wholesalers (and,thus,
> I presume also from retailers).... made by
> the same folks who make the copper foil
> tape... come in 12" x 12" size.  No prep
> needed and they're quite easy to work.
>
> Best,
>
> Dani Greer

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 17:00:43 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:31:29 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.93129.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>For the best price, first look under recycling in the yellow pages.  Most
big cities will have a few that specialize in metal and they often keep
scrap copper, brass, etc. separate.  Give 'em a call and see.  I get almost
all my copper and brass sheet from the local metal recycler.<<

Don't forget to bring your lead scraps along with you for payment to get the
money to buy copper sheet. Also look around for copper wire in several
gauges to make hangers out of and use for decorating.

Bob


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 17:47:37 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Another glass assignment
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:56:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.155626.0>
References: <<1999Aug13.124048.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> As another homework assignment in my
> fall class, I thought I would have students
> check and report on various web sites.
> Rather than check the archives, how about
> if everyone sends me their URL and maybe
> another favorite or two.... related to glass,
> of course.  I know someone on bungi started
> a list ages of go, but I'm sure some of that
> is out-of-date by now.  Thanks!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


here ya go http://www.geocities.com/paris/1141

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 06:12:54 1999
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Subject: Glass Web Sites
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 08:33:07 EDT
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Dani
I have been adding web-sites to my personal list as we go along--I have not 
edited the list to see if they are still functional.  Hope this helps.  Your 
students will be in awe!
Janice (a lurker)

http://www.warner-criv.com
http://www.cros.net/soraya
http://www.stallingsglass.com
http://home.switchboard.com/tragar
http://www.stainedartglass.com/cayman.html
http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/index.html
http://www.erols.com/masont      
http://www.glassgirl.com       
http://www.art-n-glass.com
http://wwwglassmart.com/links.html       
http://igga.org/guide.htm                  
http://ourgallery.com/glass.html 
http://novaclassique.com/bentglass.htm      
http://www.ultraglas.com
http://www.ila.com/index2.htm
http://www.frankthompson.com/index.html       
http://www.tiffany.com/intro/ictbio.htm
http://www.cummingsstudio.com
http://www.stainedglassretailers.com
http://hometown.aol.com/mkennedy1/index.htm
http://www.glass-stones.com/construction.html
http://www.haegerstainedglass.com/Dalle%20de%20verre.htm
http://www.ihsstudios.com/faceted.html
http://www.hiline.net/~glass/dallede1.htm
 http://www.abbott.demon.co.uk/knots.html
http://www.ila.com/graphics/glass/patterns/index.htm
http://members.aol.com./sgbds/free.html
http://www.pfg.co.za/history.htm
http://www.craftweb.com/bbs2/wwwboard.htm
http://www.stainedglass.com/sgsig_frm.htm
http://www.artglassworld.com/wwwboard/index.html
http://www.bullseye-glass.com
http://www.kog.com/
http://www.stic.net/users/kodom/
http://www.tiffany.com/intro/cltbio.htm
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 06:45:17 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!nadinesfolly
From: Nadine Beth Schneider <nadinesfolly@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Elisabeth
Date: 14 Aug 99 09:16:55 -0500
Message-ID: <199908141312.JAA07544@smtp1.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

Hi!
Elisabeth is alive and well. . .and in Ashburn, Virginia!

Class starts in just a few minutes so we've got to run.
Elisabeth, Lenore, Suzanne A, T Suz and Steve are
all together at my house!  We'll send pictures later!

Nadine


www.nadinesfolly.com

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 10:56:34 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:19:23 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.31923.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.13241.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Re putties... I thought I'd add what I learned from my local sources.  Both are
professional SGA's, and do a lot of leaded works for exteriors.  Around the SF Bay

Area we have a salt-air marine atmospheric layer that is very hard things.

One artist uses a 50/50 mix of Stained Glass putty and Paint Thinner.  It makes a
very runny mixture that is easy to brush into the joints and it sets up in 24
hours.
You can only putty one side at a time, waiting 24 hours for the putty to dry in
between.

The other artist uses a thicker mixture made of Commerical window putty from DAP
(get it from your local Home Center), in about a 80/20 or even 70/30 for a runnier

texture of putty and turpentine.  This mixture is like thick peanut butter.  It
brushes
into the joints fairly easily, but can be "whited" immediately and the piece
turned over
immediately and puttied and whited on the reverse side.  Then wait 24 hours and
come back and clean it all up.

With my severe allergies to pine resins, I use the DAP product and just enough
paint thinner to make it the consistency of the Turpentine mixture.  I breathe
through
a respirator fitted with chemical-catching filters during the whole time I'm
exposed.  I use rubber gloves (the blue ones) to avoid absorbing any of the
chemicals
through my skin.

Well, I hope these techniques will be useful...

Best regards,
Cheryl.


rrk wrote:

> Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> >
> > I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
> > for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
> > liquid to make the putty flow like honey.
> >
> > Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
> > for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
> > starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?
> >
> > I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
> > standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
> > clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?
>
> >From various places on da net.
>
> ****************************
>
> Linseed oil, derived from flax (linseeds), is a major ingredient in many
> fine oil paints, varnishes and stains. Linseed oil contains a mixture of
> glycerides of unsaturated fatty acids: linolenic, linoleic, oleic,
> stearic, palmitic, myristic. [Merck Index, 8th ed.] The oil dries by air
> oxidation to solid (or viscous) products.
>
> Linoleum is a flooring that is manufactured by oxidizing linseed oil to
> form a thick mixture called linoleum cement. The cement is cooled and
> mixed with pine resin, and wood flour to form sheets on a jute backing.
>
> Blown Linseed Oils are polymerized by oxidation to increase viscosity
> and acid number. Blown Linseed is used as a wetting agent for printing
> inks and a grinding media. In coatings applications, Blown Linseed is
> used as a plasticizer for leather, non-pentatrating finishes, caulks and
> weather -proofing compounds. Blown Linseed Oils dry faster than
> heat-bodied linseed oils.
>
> ****************************
>
>  OK.  I can see it will take longer to find someone else's explanation
> on da net (assuming its even there) than it will to simply type it out.
> So ... here we go.
>
> The question is whether to use boiled or raw linseed oil for making
> putty ... and how much linseed oil (raw or boiled) is necessary.
>
> Now, linseed oil of either type (raw or boiled) polymerizes in the
> presence of oxygen to form a cross-linked polymer.
>
> What happens is that the carbon-carbon double bond (the unsaturated part
> of unsaturated fatty acids above) of the fatty glycerides forms a
> peroxide from a reaction with oxygen in the air.  This peroxide is
> (relatively) unstable and then forms a (highly) unstable and very
> reactive free radical.  The free radical of one fatty acid reacts with
> the carbon-carbon double bond of another fatty acid to form a
> carbon-carbon bond .... thereby forming a dimer ... two molecules bonded
> together ... the first part of a chain.  This reaction repeats itself
> forming a trimer ... three molecules bonded together ... and so on
> until a very long chain is formed ... a polymer.
>
> When you "boil" linseed oil, or thermally treat linseed oil, the
> peroxide is made; 1/3rd of the reaction is already done.  Since making
> the perioxide is the slow step, this speeds up the overall process
> tremendously.  So, when you buy boiled linseed oil, you're probably
> buying Linseed Oil Peroxide.
>
> This is exactly how they make poly(ethylene) and poly(propylene) btw.
> Ethylene gas is reacted with oxygen gas at high temperature and in the
> presence of a catalyst (another substance to speed things up) to make
> ethylene oxide.  The ethylene oxide degrades to a free radical and
> attacks another molecule of ethylene forming the chain as described
> above.
>
> Tung Oil, and other similar products, work in exactly the same manner
> differing only in the mixture of fatty acids on the glycerides and
> perhaps the fatty acids themselves are a little different.
>
> OK.  So what does this have to do with mongolian sword swallowers?
>
> Well ... when you mix boiled linseed oil with whiting to make putty,
> oxygen from the air needed for the first step of the reaction is no
> longer present ... or not much.  However, the oxygen from the air is no
> longer needed ... since the peroxide is already formed ... and the
> polymerization reaction can continue in the absence of oxygen.  That is,
> the putty will harden up anyway ... it will harden up (polymerize) in
> the absence of oxygen in the air.
>
> When you mix raw linseed oil with whiting, it will probably never make
> the first step, or VERY slowly since there is no oxygen available for
> the reaction.  That is, the putty will never harden up, or very very
> very very slowly, decades probably, maybe never.
>
> The evaporation of turpentine (which functions as a solvent, or diluent)
> will thicken the putty, but the evaporation will not harden up the
> putty.  The turpentine basically thins out the boiled linseed oil so you
> can mix it better, more completely that is, with the whiting with a lot
> less effort.
>
> In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
> of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
> harden up, use raw linseed oil.
>
> Now if you add enough boiled linseed oil to make a putty, you've
> probably got enough linseed oil.  Just guessing ... but 25% is probably
> sufficient though maybe on the low side.  Remember, the whiting itself
> is a dilutent vis-a-vis the linseed oil, and if you dilute the boiled
> linseed oil with TOO much whiting, it will not be able to form the
> proper polymer, maybe not even polymerize at all, and your putty will
> probably crumble up rather easily.  If you use too much turpentine (say
> like 90/10), there might not be enough boiled linseed oil to form a good
> solid matrix with the whiting and the final product rather crumbly.  I
> do think that 75 turpentine 25 boiled linseed oil might be cutting it a
> bit close ... yielding an inadequate final product.  To be on the safe
> side, you might consider staying in the 70/30 to 30/70 range ... maybe
> even the 60/40 to 40/60 range.  The exact quantities can only be
> determined empirically by yourself though.  If you have good results
> with 50/50 ... why change? In any case, from a strictly business point
> of view, the real cost is your time, not the cost of turpentine, whiting
> and linseed oil (raw or boiled).  You don't want to shortchange your
> customers, but as long as you know you're doing things right (in this
> case, putting sufficient linseed oil in), you aren't shortchanging them.
>
> Now I'm just guessing on some of this (mainly the last paragraph) ...
> but I'm probably pretty close.
>
> The above is my best guess anyway ... I'm not a specialist in polymer
> chemistry, though I ran this by my wife, who IS a polymer chemist, and
> she agreed with me. [No harm in double-checking is there <G>]
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Best regards ........ Bob
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 11:23:43 1999
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From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Solder Fingers
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 10:29:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.32949.0>
References: <<3.0.3.32.19990803070144.006c1664@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Barbara, Cheryl here,

Sorry to be so late in responding..haven't gotten around to pulling messages down
for a while..

I took a class at my local stained glass shop called "Advanced Kaleidoscope Art".
We learned how to attach a solder line to a metal spot (i.e. the brass candlestick
that
formed the base of our kaleidoscope") and draw a "solder finding" over the jewels
that we were attaching, with just the barest minimum of flux to make the
attachment at the origin point, and then, by carefully feeding the solder and
slowly moving the iron, got the solder to follow the iron and form a long thin
line.

We used:
Ungar irons (Weller has taken it over) with the changeable decorative tips.
Use the 1/8" tip.
Glasstar Flux, but a very fine paintbrush as an applicator
Canfield Ultimate Solder for fast cooling.

Our instructor is expert in making Dragon Claws for holding marbles and large
crystals.  He brought a lot of his work in for display at the class and he really
is very talented in this sort of work.  He's taken up lampworking so he can make
his own "jewels" for his "scopes.."

I wish I could show you through this medium how to do it...but maybe there
is someone in your area who knows how to do this....

Best regards,
Cheryl Ryder

Barbara wrote:

> Hi,   I am very interested to hear more about the jewelers technique, using
> solder to make fingers ...... can you share more specific information?  I
> would love to know....
>
> Barbara
>
> At 03:59 PM 8/2/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear Claudette...
> >It sounds like it's going to be beautiful....
> >
> >Re the rocks and stones....there's a wonderful technique that the jewelers
> use
> >to use solder to make "fingers" to hold rocks and stones and jewels and
> crystals
> >
> >in 3-D formats...like on Kaleidoscopes...  your beautiful turquoise and other
> >stones
> >might decorate a piece you make, using that technique.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Cheryl Ryder
> >
> >
> >Claudette Jaramillo wrote:
> >
> >> A friend of mine, used to work in a gold mine, and over a period of years
> >> picked up a pickup load of interesting rocks.  I sent some to my brother to
> >> slice for me (he used his ceramic tile wet cutter).  Then one of the people
> >> in my stained glass class asked to use a selection of them in a
> southwestern
> >> scene.  The rocks were filled with natural semi-precious stone formations,
> >> such as turquoise and amethyst.  These stones were very rough around the
> >> edges, but she was still able to foil.  She overlapped in some areas.  Our
> >> instructor knew of a spray to treat them that gave them a smooth shiney
> >> surface on the front,  the same effect as if they had been polished, so
> they
> >> blended well with the glass.  This project had a great impact on me...the
> >> colors going through the natural stones added a great depth to her project.
> >> They added weight and a naturalness that was haunting.   It was one of
> those
> >> pieces of stained glass that stays in your mind because it was so unusual.
> >>
> >> I  have a box full of these stone slices and some geodes waiting for just
> >> the right project.  But so far, I am keeping myself on my piggie of a
> >> tesselation.  I have cut all my pieces and ground to fit, I am firing the
> >> pieces in batches now to round the edges and add texture.  I keep thinking
> >> of the foiling....and I am now wondering if this would look good as a
> >> mosaic?  Ok...I have chicken feet!  cj
> >>
> >> ----
> >> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> >> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> >
> >
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> >



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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 11:59:20 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!barbaraelmore
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Calling all super sleuths!
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 11:39:45 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.43945.0>
Precedence: bulk


A friend and I were permanently loaned a pretty neat
kiln that has dials that we don't know what they do!

I tried looking up the company on the internet, but no luck.

Am looking for Blue M Electric Company, Blue Island, Illinois (built
before zip codes were established!).

I would like to get an instruction manual for the kiln,
model M251-1a, called a lab heat muffle furnace.

Can anyone steer me in the right direction?
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 14:01:22 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:meryder@pacbell.net" <meryder@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:33:08 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.12338.0>
Precedence: bulk

I'm not sure of the ingredients in the
commercial sash putties.... we make =

our own cement of boiled linseed oil,
mineral spirits, whiting, and lampblack.
I've tried to learn the ingredients in the
commercial pre-made mixes, but most
manufacturers act as though I'm trying
to go into business against them and
trying to steal their formulae!  Good =

grief.  My major concern is to use archival
materials and the above formula is =

recommended by conservators such as
Julie Sloan.  The major issue:  don't use
any putties or cements that contain portland
cement or Plaster of Paris.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 15:33:15 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: English Antique
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:58:55 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.235855.0>
References: <<1999Aug13.51810.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

No problem, Chris, about the generalisation.  After all we often call
Canadians Americans!
        In looking tonight at ebay, I didn't see any of the floral style
you mentioned.  I saw a number of late Arts and Crafts style panels,
mainly of the Edwardian and immediately post WWI period.  
The rosette style panel you mention is likely to be art nouveau (c.
1883-1910),  very popular in Scotland and some places in England.
        The art deco stuff in the UK came in the 1920's and 30' (jazz
age) and was the tail end of the best domestic stained glass.  It was
created very fast and very cheaply.
        Thanks for your help.  I thought I was missing something
important.

Steve

 In message <1999Aug13.51810.0@?>, Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
writes
>Im sorry about the generalization. I'm sure that "English Antique" is
>by no means an official name for the style I was referring to. It was
>simply that the windows on EBay all came from England, and were all
>pre-1900. If you visit the site mentioned earlier in the thread, there
>are some examples of what I meant. But to serve as a description, they
>are a kind of simplified victorian look...using mainly mixtures of
>textured clear glass, with cathedral glass accents. Many of the motifs
>are floral, using that Art Deco style rosette for example. If anyone
>knows of the "real" name for this style, I would be interested to know.
>
>Take care all, and here's to hoping our nipples stay rust free forever!
>=)
>chris
>
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 16:36:35 1999
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From: seaspray@island.net
To: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Calling all super sleuths!
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 16:08:24 -0700
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Precedence: bulk

>
>A friend and I were permanently loaned a pretty neat
>kiln that has dials that we don't know what they do!

I'm a great fan of...fiddle with it and see what happens...this is how I
ended up running a crane down at the fish plant, how I ended up driving
backhoes, etc.  Same philosophy should work for the kiln.  My guess is one
is for temperature and one is for time...hook it up and play...what a neat
thing to have!

The worst that happen is that something goes FFFTT and a fuse blows in your
house! (If it's that old, look over the wiring first for obvious problems
like mouse chewed wires, first...but that's an obvious thing to do)

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 19:37:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Glass Web Sites
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 21:59:42 EDT
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Don't forget to add us to the list!

http://www.meredithglass.com

Btw, ETOUR is going great!  We have 9 people, plus Elisabeth, with some 
surprise appearances by Mr. Kelly and some other guests.  Everyone's having a 
blast, wish you were here!

Jenna Meredith-Sanders
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 19:54:17 1999
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Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 19:01:45 PDT
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Hi folks,
  I know that this is going to get me into a whole lot of trouble but I'm 
going to say it anyway.  I have been reading all the e-mails about this 
situation over the post about the box. It seems to me that its time to let 
it go, ( or post directly to each other, instead of to the group). It 
started as someone asking for some advice, and as usual, people here were 
glad to help. But now its gotten so far out of hand that its silly. We must 
all remember that we are grown ups and let it go, lets get back to the thing 
that draws us all together, our love of working with glass.
  I'm sorry if I have made anyone angry, it was not my intention. I will now 
slip back into my hole in the wall.
                                             Kathy


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 21:13:05 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!nadinesfolly
From: Nadine Beth Schneider <nadinesfolly@erols.com>
To: StndGlass1@aol.com
Subject: re: Re: Glass Web Sites
Date: 14 Aug 99 23:28:52 -0500
Message-ID: <199908150324.XAA18261@smtp4.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

Hi you guys,

Tulsa Suzanne here on Nadine's computer.  We are having a great time. :o)
The workshop is great...not without it's frustrations, however Elisabeth hasnt
made me bleed or cry.  Her site on IGGA promises blood sweat and tears..
this workshop hasnt been without sweat.  It tends to be somewhat humid here.

Jenna and family at Meredith has provided a great place to work.

I currently love the panel Im making, (whale fluke coming up out of the ocean)
found some yougheigheny stipple for water and fluke, and some way cool
Chicago art glass for the sun and sky.  So Im a happy camper.  Being a copper foil person...
Im really hoping that this all goes together well tomorrow when assembly starts!!!!!!
Elisabeth says.."Well, we'll see if *I* like it tomorrow"  YIKESSSSS!!!!

What if she doesn't?  Is this where the blood and tears come in? ;o)

We're having fun and cutting out our glass WITHOUT A PATTERN~!!
Yep...and very very little grinder usage going on.  We pray E will need to use the toilet
any hour now! <jk>  

We are taking pics to show the rest of you....

Tulsa Suzanne



www.nadinesfolly.com

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 21:34:30 1999
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X-Path: cs.com!RCall10713
From: RCall10713@cs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: NG-Computer Help!
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:46:59 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.34659.0>
Precedence: bulk

Good Evening,
Loath as I am to post non-glass stuff, I know that many of you are quite 
computer proficient, and was wondering if I could get some help. 

Recently, I've been sent e-mail by two different people (whom I know), having 
file attachments, which download OK to my server (CompuServe), are downloaded 
to the server's (or I guess my) download site, and both say that they are 
"multi-part MIME messages. When I click on the icons, one opens with a short 
cover message in discernible English, but the MIME part, in one case business 
forms, and the other photos, shows all letters, but no discernible words.

I have a sense that these may be DOS files, but if so, is there a way to get 
my Win95 or any of my server software to read this?  If so, How.

Strange, but as much Internet communication as I do, I've not encountered 
this before.

I'd appreciate any help I can get.

Richard
Glassics Artglass Studio
Valencia, CA
----
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 21:43:56 1999
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X-Path: voicenet.com!hilary
From: Hilary <hilary@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: subscribe
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 23:00:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.19030.0>
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Please put me back on the list.

Thanks,
Hilary
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 14 22:42:20 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: MIME messages
Date: Sat, 14 Aug 1999 22:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug14.15951.0>
Precedence: bulk

Those pesky Multi MIME message downloads are usually when a person send
you email from a program that supports "stationery", when yours does
not. I use yahoo's mail service, which doesnt support stationery, and I
get those messages all the time. It seems a bit silly to use that
function when you have no idea if the person on the other end can see
it =)  I dont even bother to download them, its just useless junk
cluttering up your hard-drive. Hope this helps.
chris =)
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 07:02:03 1999
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X-Path: sky.net!dwood
From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Kathy Mather <katmath@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: hate mail
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 08:18:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.31851.0>
References: <<1999Aug15.2145.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Kathy Mather wrote:
> 
> Hi folks, lets get back to the thing
> that draws us all together, 

Yeah, zillions of 'me too' messages
David
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 07:52:57 1999
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X-Path: domesticity.net!bethanie
From: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
To: RCall10713@cs.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NG-Computer Help!
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:17:14 -0400
Message-ID: <l03130300b3dc75d17240@[192.168.0.3]>
References: <<1999Aug15.34659.0>>
Precedence: bulk

AHA! Something I *may* be able to help with! (Naturally, I have ask my
engineer husband -- but that still counts, doesn't it?)

What my husband suggests is that the e-mail program you are using does not
support MIME or perhaps uudecoding. These are both ways that the sender's
e-mail program formats files for sending over the Internet. Usually, your
e-mail program reads this format "automagically" when you double-click on
the file to look at it.

"So that's all well and good," you're saying. "I know I can't read it. What
do I do so I CAN read it?!" Well, I was getting to that part... What you
need to do is get a new e-mail program. There are lots of these available
for free at download.com. I use Eudora Light (the free version -- has
worked great for me for 9+ years) and my husband uses Pegasus. These both
work on Win 95 and 98 (and at least for Mac, I know Eudora works well, too).

The pictures are a little different -- while you're at download.com, get an
application called "JPEG Viewer". You may have to re-save the attachment
you received with a file name that ends .jpg, OR you could open up the
viewer and use the "Open" command and find the file you want to view
(wherever you save your downloads in your file directory).

Hope this information helps!

....Bethanie....


At 11:46 PM -0400 8/14/99, RCall10713@cs.com wrote:
>Good Evening,
>Loath as I am to post non-glass stuff, I know that many of you are quite
>computer proficient, and was wondering if I could get some help.
>
>Recently, I've been sent e-mail by two different people (whom I know), having
>file attachments, which download OK to my server (CompuServe), are downloaded
>to the server's (or I guess my) download site, and both say that they are
>"multi-part MIME messages. When I click on the icons, one opens with a short
>cover message in discernible English, but the MIME part, in one case business
>forms, and the other photos, shows all letters, but no discernible words.
>
>I have a sense that these may be DOS files, but if so, is there a way to get
>my Win95 or any of my server software to read this?  If so, How.
>
>Strange, but as much Internet communication as I do, I've not encountered
>this before.
>
>I'd appreciate any help I can get.
>
>Richard
>Glassics Artglass Studio
>Valencia, CA
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 09:00:43 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!deethom
From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: hate mail
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 11:34:14 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990815113412.009787bc@pop.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

Ummm, I thought it was over, until this post again.  Maybe you are reading
stuff from a few days back?
Dee

At 07:01 PM 8/14/99 PDT, Kathy Mather wrote:
>Hi folks,
>  I know that this is going to get me into a whole lot of trouble but I'm 
>going to say it anyway.  I have been reading all the e-mails about this 
>situation over the post about the box. It seems to me that its time to let 
>it go, ( or post directly to each other, instead of to the group). It 
>started as someone asking for some advice, and as usual, people here were 
>glad to help. But now its gotten so far out of hand that its silly. We must 
>all remember that we are grown ups and let it go, lets get back to the thing 
>that draws us all together, our love of working with glass.
>  I'm sorry if I have made anyone angry, it was not my intention. I will now 
>slip back into my hole in the wall.
>                                             Kathy
>
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 09:20:17 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!rrkerr
From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: RCall10713@cs.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: NG-Computer Help!
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 09:06:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.2649.0>
References: <<1999Aug15.34659.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Richard,

Just guessing ... but I suspect that two incompatible encoding versions
were used.

When an email and attachment are prepared, the attachment is encoded
using standard algorithms including special character groups to note
where the attachment starts, where it ends, and what type of encoding
was used..  If the sending email program uses a different encoding
version from the encoding versions the receiving email client program is
set up to expect ....... then it reads an attachment to be text.  This
is because in the SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) that ALL ISP's
and email clients use, the attachment is in fact included in the BODY of
the email.  Its up to the client email program to be able to distinguish
the attachment from the text.

There are protocols, sets of rules, set up such that an email program
(or browser, or ftp, or usenet, ... and so on) knows what to do.=20
However, the internet protocols are evolving, changing regularly that
is, and not just minor changes sometimes.  Some old versions might not
(=3D will not) be able to read some parts of email attachments prepared
using revised versions of the protocols.

Email starts HERE and ends THERE.  The Header starts HERE and ends
THERE.  The subject starts HERE and ends THERE.  In the BODY, the
attachment starts HERE and ends THERE.   and so on.  Where the HERE and
THERE are specific character groups for each part of the email. =20

Now, if the starts HERE and ends THERE for an attachment are different
for the two email programs ... OR ... if one of the two or both email
programs are simply screwed up (i.e. a badly written program, not
exactly unknown in software programming <smile>) ... then the result
would be as you described.  There are a LOT of folks claiming to be
programmers running around that know about as much about programming as
my 2 year old daughter.  Let the buyer beware.

This is what I think is happening.

I used to get emails like this from time to time ... and still do rarely
... mostly from people who are using non-mainstream email clients, or
very old email clients (or old versions).  Doesn't pay to be TOO tardy
in ungrading internet programs ... and what you're seeing is one of the
reasons why.

So ....make sure both of you are using a CURRENT version of your email
client, and that its a GOOD (i.e. functional) client.

Then just have the person resend to you.

Finally ........ NEVER EVER use a "beta" program.  Beta =3D test program =
=3D
highly likely to be improperly implemented in parts.  This is ESPECIALLY
true with ALL programs from Microsoft Corp. who routinely use customers
for beta testing, and are well-known for this.  Even then, most
Microsoft Corp. programs require AT LEAST 3 released versions, usually
4, sometimes 5 before all the functionality claimed by MS is in fact
functional.  Internet Explorer is a case in point, since v. 1 and v.2
were not just worse than useless, they were WRONG.  IE3 was "mostly" ok,
but still had a lot of errors in it.  It wasn't until IE4 that it was at
least ok, and they're still working on the basic functionality with IE5
released and IE6 in prep.  The first released version of MS Office97 was
so bad, that MS had to actually give out a free upgrade, and that is
completely against their general policy since they make most of their
money on upgrades.  The moral of the story here is : make sure you're
using a program that WORKS and the CURRENT VERSION.

Hope this helps.

Good luck ............ <O=BFO> Bob (aka ez)




RCall10713@cs.com wrote:
>=20
> Good Evening,
> Loath as I am to post non-glass stuff, I know that many of you are quit=
e
> computer proficient, and was wondering if I could get some help.
>=20
> Recently, I've been sent e-mail by two different people (whom I know), =
having
> file attachments, which download OK to my server (CompuServe), are down=
loaded
> to the server's (or I guess my) download site, and both say that they a=
re
> "multi-part MIME messages. When I click on the icons, one opens with a =
short
> cover message in discernible English, but the MIME part, in one case bu=
siness
> forms, and the other photos, shows all letters, but no discernible word=
s.
>=20
> I have a sense that these may be DOS files, but if so, is there a way t=
o get
> my Win95 or any of my server software to read this?  If so, How.
>=20
> Strange, but as much Internet communication as I do, I've not encounter=
ed
> this before.
>=20
> I'd appreciate any help I can get.
>=20
> Richard
> Glassics Artglass Studio
> Valencia, CA
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 10:19:32 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: pacbell.net!rrkerr
From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: RCall10713@cs.com, Bungi Glass List <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG-Computer Help!
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 10:03:07 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.337.0>
References: <<1999Aug15.2649.0>>
Precedence: bulk

An example of an "old" internet program that isn't using current
protocols is the (probably UNIX) listserv program used by Bungi ... that
routinely transforms certain characters during the process of preparing
the email to be sent to the Bungi list; see the characters improperly
transformed in the the email below.  The CGI program is probably written
in an older version of PERL and/or may not have been written properly
vis-a-vis newer email clients.  I often get blank emails, which shows
that the prog can't handle MIME and/or uuencoding (and who knows what
else) ... thereby demonstrating its an older program.  Not complaining,
just pointing out an example.

rrk wrote:
> 
> Richard,
> 
> Just guessing ... but I suspect that two incompatible encoding versions
> were used.
> 
> When an email and attachment are prepared, the attachment is encoded
> using standard algorithms including special character groups to note
> where the attachment starts, where it ends, and what type of encoding
> was used..  If the sending email program uses a different encoding
> version from the encoding versions the receiving email client program is
> set up to expect ....... then it reads an attachment to be text.  This
> is because in the SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) that ALL ISP's
> and email clients use, the attachment is in fact included in the BODY of
> the email.  Its up to the client email program to be able to distinguish
> the attachment from the text.
> 
> There are protocols, sets of rules, set up such that an email program
> (or browser, or ftp, or usenet, ... and so on) knows what to do.=20
> However, the internet protocols are evolving, changing regularly that
> is, and not just minor changes sometimes.  Some old versions might not
> (=3D will not) be able to read some parts of email attachments prepared
> using revised versions of the protocols.
> 
> Email starts HERE and ends THERE.  The Header starts HERE and ends
> THERE.  The subject starts HERE and ends THERE.  In the BODY, the
> attachment starts HERE and ends THERE.   and so on.  Where the HERE and
> THERE are specific character groups for each part of the email. =20
> 
> Now, if the starts HERE and ends THERE for an attachment are different
> for the two email programs ... OR ... if one of the two or both email
> programs are simply screwed up (i.e. a badly written program, not
> exactly unknown in software programming <smile>) ... then the result
> would be as you described.  There are a LOT of folks claiming to be
> programmers running around that know about as much about programming as
> my 2 year old daughter.  Let the buyer beware.
> 
> This is what I think is happening.
> 
> I used to get emails like this from time to time ... and still do rarely
> ... mostly from people who are using non-mainstream email clients, or
> very old email clients (or old versions).  Doesn't pay to be TOO tardy
> in ungrading internet programs ... and what you're seeing is one of the
> reasons why.
> 
> So ....make sure both of you are using a CURRENT version of your email
> client, and that its a GOOD (i.e. functional) client.
> 
> Then just have the person resend to you.
> 
> Finally ........ NEVER EVER use a "beta" program.  Beta =3D test program =
> =3D
> highly likely to be improperly implemented in parts.  This is ESPECIALLY
> true with ALL programs from Microsoft Corp. who routinely use customers
> for beta testing, and are well-known for this.  Even then, most
> Microsoft Corp. programs require AT LEAST 3 released versions, usually
> 4, sometimes 5 before all the functionality claimed by MS is in fact
> functional.  Internet Explorer is a case in point, since v. 1 and v.2
> were not just worse than useless, they were WRONG.  IE3 was "mostly" ok,
> but still had a lot of errors in it.  It wasn't until IE4 that it was at
> least ok, and they're still working on the basic functionality with IE5
> released and IE6 in prep.  The first released version of MS Office97 was
> so bad, that MS had to actually give out a free upgrade, and that is
> completely against their general policy since they make most of their
> money on upgrades.  The moral of the story here is : make sure you're
> using a program that WORKS and the CURRENT VERSION.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Good luck ............ <O=BFO> Bob (aka ez)
> 
> RCall10713@cs.com wrote:
> >=20
> > Good Evening,
> > Loath as I am to post non-glass stuff, I know that many of you are quit=
> e
> > computer proficient, and was wondering if I could get some help.
> >=20
> > Recently, I've been sent e-mail by two different people (whom I know), =
> having
> > file attachments, which download OK to my server (CompuServe), are down=
> loaded
> > to the server's (or I guess my) download site, and both say that they a=
> re
> > "multi-part MIME messages. When I click on the icons, one opens with a =
> short
> > cover message in discernible English, but the MIME part, in one case bu=
> siness
> > forms, and the other photos, shows all letters, but no discernible word=
> s.
> >=20
> > I have a sense that these may be DOS files, but if so, is there a way t=
> o get
> > my Win95 or any of my server software to read this?  If so, How.
> >=20
> > Strange, but as much Internet communication as I do, I've not encounter=
> ed
> > this before.
> >=20
> > I'd appreciate any help I can get.
> >=20
> > Richard
> > Glassics Artglass Studio
> > Valencia, CA
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 12:23:32 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!sarachildress
From: Sara Childress <sarachildress@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Good News
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:02:12 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.5212.0>
Precedence: bulk



--- Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:
>Oh, Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join
> the fun.

So what is this glass tutu that has everyone so excited, and where are
the pictures??? I just got a divorce....this is probably going to be my
most exciting experience for a while.....

Sara  :^) 

===
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I'm an idealist. I don't know where I'm going,
but I'm on my way."    carl sandburg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 14:01:32 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: tutu
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 13:45:47 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.64547.0>
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If we get back on that one again EVEN if only to explain.........REMEMBER
there is an un-enforced suggestion to put NON GLASS or NG in the subject so
the very few of us who could care less can have it deleted BEFORE it gets
downloaded!
Also responding direct to the  inquisitor would be (my) preferable than a
post to all of the list.............
enjoy, H
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 15:47:34 1999
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X-Path: harborside.com!waterfall
From: "Roberto and Barbara Delgado" <waterfall@harborside.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: glass storage tip
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 15:06:20 -0500
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Hi. I am new at this. Working on my second window.  Actually second =
piece ever.  Anyway, I store my extra glass on the rubberized dish =
drainer. Works for me.. Barb

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi. I am new at this. Working on my =
second=20
window.&nbsp; Actually second piece ever.&nbsp; Anyway, I store my extra =
glass=20
on the rubberized dish drainer. Works for me.. =
Barb</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 16:22:56 1999
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X-Path: mail2.nai.net!shad
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Angels
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:57:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.145724.0>
Precedence: bulk

For some reason, I am suddenly selling angels.  I'm not doing shows
right now, but just got two separate orders for 3 angels each.  They are
smallish angels, I make them out of scrap, but this isn't the first time
this summer that people have called me looking for angels.  So I guess
angels are hot.  (I usually don't get angels out until October, but I'll
have them out early this year!

Just put a new zipper in my tent, so will be prepared to camp out for
Glass Visions.

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 16:46:07 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
Subject: Re: Another glass assignment
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 16:02:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.9216.0>
References: <<1999Aug13.124048.0>>
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OK, my own:

Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm

And a copy of my "glass" favorites folder is attached as an HTML file =
(since
that is how IE 5 exports it and I could not figure out an easy way to
reformat it).



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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#008080>OK, my own:<BR><BR>Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - =

http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm<BR><BR>And a copy of my "glass"=20
favorites folder is attached as an HTML file (since<BR>that is how IE 5 =
exports=20
it and I could not figure out an easy way to<BR>reformat=20
it).<BR><BR></BODY></HTML>

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<!DOCTYPE NETSCAPE-Bookmark-file-1>
<!-- This is an automatically generated file.
It will be read and overwritten.
Do Not Edit! -->
<TITLE>Bookmarks</TITLE>
<H1>Bookmarks</H1>
<DL><p>
    <DT><H3 FOLDED ADD_DATE=3D"926893642">Cool Web Sites</H3>
    <DL><p>
        <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.dmglass.com/" ADD_DATE=3D"926893648" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"926893650">http--www.dmglass.com-</A>
        <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.intrastar.net/~bud/gallery.htm" =
ADD_DATE=3D"930956280" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"930956282">Intrastar Glass List Galleries</A>
        <DT><A =
HREF=3D"http://home.earthlink.net/~asgitp/dragonsfairiesbeads.htm" =
ADD_DATE=3D"931977962" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931977964">Glass Dragons, Fairies and Beads</A>
    </DL><p>
    <DT><H3 FOLDED ADD_DATE=3D"931978769">e-tour</H3>
    <DL><p>
        <DT><A HREF=3D"http://come.to/The_E-Tour" ADD_DATE=3D"931978773" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931978774">http--come.to-The_E-Tour</A>
        <DT><A HREF=3D"http://members.xoom.com/GlassArt1/etour3.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"931978809" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931978810">The E-Tour</A>
        <DT><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/calendar/august.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"931978609" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931978610">August Events</A>
    </DL><p>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.best.com/~gas/toc.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"874791556">Glass Art Society</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.proglass.com/" ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"906241008">ProGlass ... =
Home</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/index1.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"895695936">Stained Glass Biz -- The Place for Stained =
Glass Artists, Stained Glass Stores, and Stained Glass Enthusiasts!</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.caseweb.com/acts/" ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"886877954">ACTS - Arts, =
Crafts, and Theater Safety - Safety For the Arts</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://home.bc.rogers.wave.ca/wworks/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"889048184">BRITISH COLUMBIA GLASS ARTS ASSOCIATION</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.artglassworld.com/wwwboard/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902599416">Art Glass World's Billboard</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.americanbevel.com/" ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902607816">American Bevel, =
Inc. Home Page</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.spectrumglass.com/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902613654">Spectrum Glass ... Home</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.uroboros.com/index.shtml" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902613914">Uroboros Fine Art Glass</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.kog.com/welcome.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902614052">Kokomo Opalescent Glass</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.hotglass.com/links.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902614490">Glass Line's links</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/youghiogheny/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902614980">Youghiogheny Home Page</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.artglassworld.com/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"902767426">Art Glass World</A>
    <DT><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.artglassworld.com/supply/wissmach/home.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"904084946">Wissmach Glass Company</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.armstrongglass.com/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"904241922">Armstrong Glass Company</A>
    <DT><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.inspirationfarm.com/gg/articles/article9.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"930604782" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"930604784">Dichroic Glass</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.contempglass.org/" ADD_DATE=3D"912893601" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"874700086">AACG Home Page</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.igga.org/menua.htm" ADD_DATE=3D"916428719" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"916428720">International Guild =
of Glass Artists, Inc.</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.powellbrosglassart.com/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"922228531" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"922228532">Powell Brothers Glass Art</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.crloo.com/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"922468975" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"922468976">C&R Loo  Art Glass</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.chicagoartglass.com/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"923605712" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"923605714">CHICAGO ART GLASS Home Page</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.encyclopedia.netnz.com/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"923622499" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"923622500">Glass Encyclopedia</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.asgla.com/links.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"924393445" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"924393446">Links from ASGLA (manuf.)</A>
    <DT><A =
HREF=3D"http://aries27.uwaterloo.ca/~dmg/glass/gallery/index.php3?state=3D=
gallery" ADD_DATE=3D"924393522" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"924393524">Bungi's Stained Glass Gallery</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.rapidset.com/" ADD_DATE=3D"924393565" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"924393566">Rapid-Set</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.stainedglassartists.com/" =
ADD_DATE=3D"924393754" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"924393756">The Stained Glass Artists</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://igga.org/atwood/" ADD_DATE=3D"925579287" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"925579288">Holtenwood =
Architectural Detailing - IGGA</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.bullseye-glass.com/about/index.html" =
ADD_DATE=3D"929480038" LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" =
LAST_MODIFIED=3D"929480040">Bullseye Online - About Bullseye</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://glass.intrastar.net/" ADD_DATE=3D"931648164" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931648166">INTRASTAR GLASS =
LIST</A>
    <DT><A HREF=3D"http://www.hotglass.com/" ADD_DATE=3D"931979183" =
LAST_VISIT=3D"934700400" LAST_MODIFIED=3D"931979184">GLASS LINE =
Newsletter... GlassBlowing</A>
</DL><p>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 17:46:37 1999
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 17:08:10 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: hate mail
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:07:42 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.16742.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Dee Thompson
>Ummm, I thought it was over, until this post again.  Maybe you are readi=
ng
stuff from a few days back?
Dee<

Yes, I think we all left it behind some days ago.... either
someone is getting their mail very late or not checking
the dates of their received mail.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 18:51:37 1999
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:09:19 -0700 (PDT)
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X-Path: harborside.com!waterfall
From: "Roberto and Barbara Delgado" <waterfall@harborside.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Cant see message
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:07:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.1371.0>
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Ok I am new on the block and this is new to me.  So, how come my message =
and Atwoods message didn't print out?  What did I do wrong?  I know =
someone saw it because I saw one answer. Barb

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ok I am new on the block and this is =
new to=20
me.&nbsp; So, how come my message and Atwoods message didn't print =
out?&nbsp;=20
What did I do wrong?&nbsp; I know someone saw it because I saw one =
answer.=20
Barb</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 19:24:56 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: sky.net!dwood
From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Sara Childress <sarachildress@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Good News
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 21:00:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug15.16024.0>
References: <<1999Aug15.5212.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Sara Childress wrote:
> 
> --- Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:
> >Oh, Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join
> > the fun.
> 
> So what is this glass tutu that has everyone so excited, and where are
> the pictures??? I just got a divorce....this is probably going to be my
> most exciting experience for a while.....
> 
> Sara  :^)

Me too!
David
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 15 21:25:44 1999
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:45:43 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: hotmail.com!mrsdesigns
From: "Michele Spruill" <mrsdesigns@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: Report of E's workshop in MD
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:43:40 PDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.34340.0>
Precedence: bulk

Greetings everyone!  Thought you'd all like to know there are several tired 
campers out there tonight, all of us knowing more about leading glass than 
just two days ago...

Elisabeth is a great inspiration, and her true love of the craft was evident 
as she showed us many ideas borne of experience and innovative tool making.

Jenna and the Meredith Family were the consummate hosts for the workshop.  
They were always helpful and agreeable, and have great references for 
Chinese food!

One of the best parts, too, was to meet the people behind the e-mail. Though 
maybe the pictures weren't always what was in my head, the personalities 
rang true with a huge shared interest in glass.  We all had our strengths 
and frustrations and now we have friends from across the US and UK, and 
probably some new Bungi members as well. (The students not on the list 
seemed surprised how well these "strangers" knew each other- they want to be 
in on it, too!)

This was definitely one of the best things I've done for my glass work 
lately!

Michele


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 07:29:44 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:11:34 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: city-net.com!dany
From: "Daniela Birkelbach" <dany@city-net.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:37:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.53738.0>
Precedence: bulk

I just noticed that www.riogrande.com sells copper sheets under "Raw
Material" in their Gems and Findings Catalog.

Dany

Daniela Birkelbach
Kennebec, Inc.
Custom Software Development
Internet Solutions
http://www.kennebec-inc.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Tim & Adriana Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting


>>>For the best price, first look under recycling in the yellow pages.  Most
>big cities will have a few that specialize in metal and they often keep
>scrap copper, brass, etc. separate.  Give 'em a call and see.  I get almost
>all my copper and brass sheet from the local metal recycler.<<
>
>Don't forget to bring your lead scraps along with you for payment to get
the
>money to buy copper sheet. Also look around for copper wire in several
>gauges to make hangers out of and use for decorating.
>
>Bob
>
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 08:49:08 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Back to Lurking
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 07:22:42 -0600
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School starts today for the teachers here, and Wednesday I get live little
bodies!  So I am back to lurkin' for the school year.  It has been a great
summer.   I think one of the highlights was meeting Cheryl and Marty, two
very talented glass artists.   My tesselation is about 95% complete, I am
putting a border of glass around it, so probably by the end of the week, it
will be ready for framing.  I'll see some of you in September.  cj

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 09:37:31 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Bon Voyage
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 08:52:27 PDT
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Hi all,

Just a quick note to tell you I'm off to Maui again for a week.
I may not be as responsive to subscription changes as usual,..I'll
try check it once in a while though.  :^)

Aloha!



-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 14:35:44 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: mrsdesigns@hotmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Report of E's workshop in MD
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:26:28 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.202628.0>
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Hi everybody,

First of all, an ENORMOUS THANK YOU to georgeous Nadine and Larry for their 
amazing hospitality and graciousness to feed ,"water" (ahem!) and accommodate 
this crazy gang of people who arrived on their doorstep. A Thank You to 
"Babe" also for putting up with us and nuzzling up to us. It got even too 
much for him ( a lovely snow-white standard poodle, with a very fetching blue 
bandana), that he escaped on our last evening. He was hotly pursued by this 
crazy Swede, straight across peoples' front gardens and dining room windows. 
Eventually he was cornered by "Dad" Larry and gathered up into the jeep with 
this crazy Swede right behind.
We were treated royally and spoiled rotten by Nadine and Larry, but I did 
notice Nadine looked kind of worn out on Sunday night, poor lamb....

Secondly, a Thank You to Jenna, Janet and Jack and baby Owen (who graciously 
condescended to be passed from hand to hand - keeping his happy smile in 
tact). Thank you for your help, facilities and putting up with us.  I did 
notice that "our" students were like kids in a candy-store about all the 
lovely glass you had in your store.

Sure, I overheard some quiet mutterings about "Ain't she going to want to use 
the bath-room soon, so we can get to use the grinder while she is in there?"
Hah! Not a chance Suzanne Gunn!   A true professional looks after these 
things FIRST!  Tee-hee!

On the first day, the temperature rose by several degrees through 
frustrations of glass that just wouldn't cut right. Sounds familiar?!  You 
thought I was tough on you??? In UK I would have "dictated"  to you the glass 
to chose. I was just too soft on ya!
I was delighted to see that all of you took to practicing the "English Way" 
of cutting very easily, and that on the whole, you had chosen thoughtful 
designs that - for a first lead panel - were "do-able". I think that out of 
the 9 people that attended, 6 virtually finished their panels (Nadine was a 
star, followed by Steve). Lenore will have to go back to "teacher" after 
class!! ;->

The lead we used was of a kind I have never encountered before, exceedingly 
hard and stubborn. In some ways, it behaved more like zink than lead. I take 
my hat off to those that find it ok to work with. It is made by a company 
called Cascade. On discussing the matter with some of you who have used lead 
once or twice before, I was told that there is another company in USA called 
Premier Lead, who makes lead that is a bit more pliable. I regretted not 
having packed my bags with at least a few more samples of Stilleman's lead 
(made in Belgium.....and I think - if I remember earlier comments by Albert , 
 also available here in USA), other than those scraps I brought.  It was 
really a question of just HOW much can a travelling body physically  carry!!!

I also requested photos of your finished panels folks, both for myself.... 
and... perhaps (please?) for all to share. I am real proud of you. You did 
very well.
So my third Thank You goes to my very first group of students in USA who did 
so much to make my first workshop in USA fun and enjoyable. I hope you 
enjoyed it as much as I did (even though - at one stage, Hilary Bobker had 
steam coming out of her ears, ....and her language ALMOST made me blush....)

My confiscated leadknife has STILL not turned up and my notebook I left 
behind in San Fransisco has also not yet turned up (yet). But I DID wear my 
Viking Hat (wished upon....oooops,.... graciously presented to me by 
Peggy)....

Soooo.... here I am, back under the wing of Lenore, in Co. Montgomery, just 
outside Philadelphia, PA. Any of you guys in the area want to meet up with 
me?????
I will be away from 22 - 26 August, I will be at Glass Visions 28 & 29th (if 
Charles will  let me in.....) and I am departing for Colorado Springs early 
on 1st September.
(Kansas City workshop up and going on 11 & 12 September....contact Mike Peck 
at Summit Stained Glass for details...).

And.... Mr. O'Tutu???
Well..... he kept me waiting, he was late.... ....he had broken his tu-tu and 
stood me up on the dinner date....:-< (Wait until I tell Toby!!!!!). ...And I 
will leave USA without knowing what a Philly-steak is. I will NEVER believe a 
word Mr. O'Tutu will say again. He also muttered something about trying to 
make it to W-C on 28th....
Shall we give him the benefit of the doubt??? Dunno.... Hmmm...

A word to Elizabeth Law in UK about the 3-D sculpture book. I have seen it, 
looked at it and put it down - totally unimpressed. I suggest you strike it 
out from your wish-list. Will be pleased to discuss more on return to UK.
 Hi to UK-Bungians!!! Thinking of you!

Remember Bungi-folk around Philadelphia, PA! I'm here, get in touch if you 
want to meet up. 

Elisabeth 'n (absent) Toby in UK,   currently visiting Pennsylvania, USA
----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 15:06:45 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Cant see message
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:06:24 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.7624.0>
References: <<1999Aug15.1371.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Oops... did I send one out in MIME format?  Or was an attachment too large?

Could you please let me know what the title of the message from me that came
through blank was?  I would like to check it to find out what I did wrong.

For everyone on Bungi: A reminder to send messages plain text.  Otherwise
the Bungi list server does all this extra garbage like the one below.  The
best way to set this up on most e-mail clients is similar to what I describe
below.  The specific locations and text are from MS Outlook Express 5, but
most e-mail clients have similar settings:

1. Under "Options" > "Send", check the box for "Reply to messages in the
format in which they are sent".  This ensures that any replies to a Bungi
message will go out as plain text, the same as the original.

2. Set up an Address Book entry for Bungi and check the box for "Send e-mail
using plain text only".  Use this address book entry for all new messages.
This ensures new messages are also sent plain text to Bungi.

----- Original Message -----
From: Roberto and Barbara Delgado <waterfall@harborside.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Cant see message


> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BEE748.F9471780
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> Ok I am new on the block and this is new to me.  So, how come my message =
> and Atwoods message didn't print out?  What did I do wrong?  I know =
> someone saw it because I saw one answer. Barb
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BEE748.F9471780
> Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
>
> <META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
> http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
> <META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Ok I am new on the block and this is =
> new to=20
> me.&nbsp; So, how come my message and Atwoods message didn't print =
> out?&nbsp;=20
> What did I do wrong?&nbsp; I know someone saw it because I saw one =
> answer.=20
> Barb</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_0032_01BEE748.F9471780--
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 19:11:39 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 20:49:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.154912.0>
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Home again home again jiggidy jog.
Im exhausted!!!!! ;o)
Yesterday pretty near wore me out...in fact it did.

Thank you very much Elisabeth!  I really did enjoy the 
workshop..and it *wasnt me* that said that about wanting
you to go potty!! Promise!  But Im not naming names.

Jenna!  You are such a lovely person.  Thank you so much for your
hospitality, and bringing us the good tunes!!!! ;o)  Just when I
**really** needed it! ;o)  Oh!  Thank you also for the crate to stand
on. Tell Jack and Jane thanks so much and it was big fun meeting you
all.

We really did have a great time.  I hated for us to all split up.
I have been home for a couple hours now.  I got into DFW about 12:30
this afternoon......and sat.  Finally caught a plane to Tulsa and made
it here about 3:45pm.  My family seemed to have given up on my returning
home, so they were on the internet instead of listening for my "pick me
up from the airport" call.  :o(  A little after 5pm my mother came to
rescue me from my lonely bench out front of the terminal.

Im now really happy with my panel.  There was a period of frustration
yesterday.. :o/  but my feeling is, I did good!

For those of you that werent there..  We did not use patterns.  Very
different if you havent done that before.  It slowed down my cutting,
but I was pleased nevertheless with the cutting I did without a pattern.

I find without laying out my pattern pieces on the glass, it is more
difficult to be conservative with my glass.

I cant tell you how much I enjoyed hanging out/working/sipping
margaritas with you all! 

It was for sure a great time I wont soon forget! :o)

Tulsa Suzanne




-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 20:13:38 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:26:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.162645.0>
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Precedence: bulk



Suzanne Gunn wrote:
> 
> Home again home again jiggidy jog.
> Im exhausted!!!!! ;o)
> Yesterday pretty near wore me out...in fact it did.
> 

Me too!!!
David
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 21:15:53 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: unpacking-tools-mishaps
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:22:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.172218.0>
References: <<1999Aug16.154912.0>>
Precedence: bulk


While unpacking my bag I discovered that the jar of flame dry bead
release smashed in my bag on my clothes....(major groan)

Then, after reading Elisabeths post, about not finding her lead knife, I
decided to check my tool box...I immediately sliced my finger on my
brand new lead knife.  That lead sure was hard to cut....but not my
finger. :o(  ouch.

Oops.  I think I lied.  Didnt mean to...really tired and awful memory
dont mix well!  I guess I did say that about your going to potty! ;o)


> Thank you very much Elisabeth!  I really did enjoy the 
> workshop..and it *wasnt me* that said that about wanting
> you to go potty!! Promise!  But Im not naming names.

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 21:32:24 1999
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X-Path: home.com!cecnralph
From: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
To: Bungi Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: The E-Tour class at Meredith
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 00:07:56 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.20756.0>
Organization: Grendel Studios
Precedence: bulk

Hi fellow classmates - this is Cecily Wood, and I've joined bungi, as
you can tell.  I had a great time: laughed some, learned some, swore
some (just the D-word, tho) and bought plenty.  I do hope someone will
take pity on me and send me a list of the participants, because I'm
AWFUL with names.  I was pleased you bungi people were getting together
in real life, and I was thunderstruck to find out how far many of you
had come.  And here I was, complaining how I couldn't get to Meredith on
my lunch hour any more because they'd moved from Laurel to Silver Spring
(virtually D.C. - "inside the beltway" for those of you unfamiliar with
Maryland).  I live in Columbia/Ellicott City.

In my future life I'm going to do stained glass full time - if I survive
long enough to retire.  (Work seriously interferes with my life. 
However I'm addicted to eating!)

Oh - and Elisabeth - Youghiogheny's (yes they really pronounce it
yock-a-gainie, not a linguistically cultured yo-ga-hainie) glass is
normally nowhere near as bad to cut as that green stipple from hell! 
It's not the easiest cutting glass, but especially their greens are
simply unbeatable for "botanic" uses.

My panel gets done this weekend so I can give it to my nephew who is
getting married the week afterwards, and I usually manage to take photos
of my work and certainly will email you the photos, Elisabeth.  If you
want any file type other than jpeg, please tell me.  Also, if you want
me to scan it at, say 300 dpi instead of the usual 72 dpi which is all a
monitor can display, just tell me that also.  And thank you very much!
-- 
*********************************************************************
*  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood 
*  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)
*********************************************************************
----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 16 22:36:37 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Yegnim@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Report of E's workshop in MD
Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 22:01:21 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug16.15121.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>The lead we used was of a kind I have never encountered before,
exceedingly
hard and stubborn. In some ways, it behaved more like zink than lead. I take
my hat off to those that find it ok to work with. It is made by a company
called Cascade. <<

Cascade lead is imported to the USA from Vancouver, BC, Canada. It is a
premium product made with virgin lead and a small percentage of antimony. It
is considered by most to be on the high end of medium in hardness. Several
local studios use Cascade lead for the large majority of their lead needs. I
like the way they firmly pack their cases of lead to prevent shifting. Part
of the packing material is several sheets of The Peace Arch News and other
local newspapers. It is good to find out what our neighbors are doing and
saying about us.

Besides offering a large number of sizes and profiles Cascade offers brass
reinforced lead made with their patented process. Lead is shipped in 45
pound boxes of six foot strips and normally sells for the price of a 50
pound case of domestic lead or a few dollars more. The reinforced lead
carries a premium of about 25%.

Cascade lead solders very nicely. The brass reinforced lead does tend to
steal heat from the joint and so a higher wattage iron is handy when using
reinforced lead.

Bob

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 03:11:20 1999
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X-Path: netzero.net!kseeglass
From: "K See" <kseeglass@netzero.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Chihuly in Jerusalem Exhibit
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 05:28:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.1284.0>
Precedence: bulk

He does it again!

http://www.msnbc.com/news/301163.asp

MSNBC.com  article: Garden of Glass Blooms in Jerusalem 

http://www.chihuly.com/jerusalem/

The second is Chihuly In The Light of Jerusalem 2000



________________________________________________________
NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet.  Shouldn't you?
Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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----
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 05:38:07 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: E-Tour In Md.....
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:17:25 -0400
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Hey guys , you all sound like you all had the best of times!!! Wish we all
could have been there......Abbie in Va

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 06:39:34 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Cant see message
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:34:09 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.4349.0>
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BEE8AC.D339C4B0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Also make sure Bungi is the first address you sent to.
I've noticed that some systems only look at the send type for the first
address.

Vic M.
 vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim & Adriana Atwood [mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca]
Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:06 PM
To: Bungi
Subject: Re: Cant see message



2. Set up an Address Book entry for Bungi and check the box for "Send e-mail
using plain text only".  Use this address book entry for all new messages.
This ensures new messages are also sent plain text to Bungi.


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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>RE: Cant see message</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=2>Also make sure Bungi is the first address you sent to.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>I've noticed that some systems only look at the send type for the first address.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>&nbsp;vmodiano@ctronsoft.com </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Tim &amp; Adriana Atwood [<A HREF="mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca">mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:06 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Bungi</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: Cant see message</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>2. Set up an Address Book entry for Bungi and check the box for &quot;Send e-mail</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>using plain text only&quot;.&nbsp; Use this address book entry for all new messages.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>This ensures new messages are also sent plain text to Bungi.</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 07:03:58 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Evelyn C Mason <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: E-Tour In Md.....
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:57:31 -0500
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Evelyn C Mason wrote:
> 
> Hey guys , you all sound like you all had the best of times!!! Wish we all
> could have been there......Abbie in Va
>

Me too!!!
David
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 08:14:45 1999
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X-Path: villagesoftsmith.com!steve
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Good News
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:26:07 -0700
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990817072607.00970590@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
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More E-Tour photos are coming soon, but I need to finish my morning coffee
first :-)   I had to stay in WDC through Monday for some day-job work.

Sorry to disappoint you, Sara, but the blue tutu records faintly, at best,
with a normal camera.  Maybe the Photoshop pros out there will be able to
enhance the images.  Next time, I'll remember to use my special
aura-capturing film!

Steve

At 12:02 PM 8/15/99 -0700, Sara Childress wrote:
>
>
>--- Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:
>>Oh, Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join
>> the fun.
>
>So what is this glass tutu that has everyone so excited, and where are
>the pictures??? I just got a divorce....this is probably going to be my
>most exciting experience for a while.....
>
>Sara  :^) 
>
>===
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>"I'm an idealist. I don't know where I'm going,
>but I'm on my way."    carl sandburg
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 11:43:26 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Report of E's workshop in MD
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:54:55 -0400
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>
Cascade lead is imported to the USA from Vancouver, BC, Canada. It is a
premium product made with virgin lead and a small percentage of antimony.=

It
is considered by most to be on the high end of medium in hardness. Severa=
l
local.....<

Couldn't have said it better myself... we've started
"importing", too, since the Wensley lead made in
nearby Denver gets worse and worse all the time....

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 12:44:43 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
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Subject: Re: Good News
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:55:38 -0500
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Steve Wernecke wrote:
 
> Sorry to disappoint you, Sara, but the blue tutu records faintly, at best,
> with a normal camera.   Next time, I'll remember to use my special
> aura-capturing film!
> 
> Steve

> >>Oh, Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join
> >> the fun.
> >
> >So what is this glass tutu that has everyone so excited, and where are
> >the pictures??? 

Glass? Glass? What glass?
Me too!
David
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 15:47:15 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:14:41 +1200
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Hi Everybody,

My name is Tina, I am an architectural designer in New Zealand and have
recently joined your list.  I thought I should introduce myself before
making comments or asking questions.

Leadlighting has been a hobby for the past 5 years.  I enjoy windows
more than little trinkets to hang around.  Most of my projects have been
given to friends as gifts. However as I see thier home improving I have
begun to keep a few for my own home.

Lately I have been using a cad program to design my projects on and have
found that works very well.  I get a perfectly scaled and symetrical
design (if thats what I want) ready to print and begin working on.

That is enough for now I hope I can talk with you all soon.

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 17:13:18 1999
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X-Path: foxinternet.net!lin
From: "lin" <lin@foxinternet.net>
To: "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 16:02:38 -0700
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so when you say you didn't use patterns... does that mean that you didn't
cut out pattern pieces or that you literally did a free hand, free spirit
kind of panel?!  i can't imagine how that would be done...... maybe i'm just
dense......
do you think  you will continue with this method?  any other "nifty" tips or
techniques that will stick with you?  i'm still debating about the Seattle
class but don't think i am going to be able to make it......
layla

----- Original Message -----
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
We did not use patterns.  Very
> different if you havent done that before.  It slowed down my cutting,
> but I was pleased nevertheless with the cutting I did without a pattern.


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 18:12:14 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Tina Booth" <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>, "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: New on list
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:15:35 -0400
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Hi, Tina..
Welcome!
Would you tell more about your designing with the cad program? I am very
interested.
Mary


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 18:46:43 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
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Subject: The E-Tour class at Meredith
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:09:03 -0400
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Welcome aboard to all the newcomers and
thanks for sharing with us!  Hope you feel
like participating on a regular basis.... it's
what makes for a good conversation.

And thanks to everyone who sent me their
favorite URL's for my class project.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 19:17:16 1999
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From: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
To: Bungi Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re:E-Tour surviver
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:18:32 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.171832.0>
Organization: Grendel Studios
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Layla - if I may butt in, Elisabeth was trying to get us to cut on top
of a pattern with glass we could see through.  Around here (MD, DC, VA)
it is (oddly enough) called Englishing, and I have seen really fine
professional cutters do it and be so ultra accurate that they might only
have to grind off a couple rough spots in an entire pattern for a leaded
panel!  

It's easy to see through to your pattern when you have transparent or
light density.  Medium and medium dense can be done if you have the
glass on a light table.  For the really opaque though, you just have to
have pattern pieces on top.  Correct me, glassmates, if I'm wrong, but I
think Elisabeth suggested you cut out your piece, and then discarded it,
using the surround as a stencil, rather than the pattern piece as a template.

Unless you have your work at an optimum height, doing it directly on the
glass over the pattern takes a lot of practice.  Most of us halfway did
the job, by tracing over the glass with the ubiquitous felt tipped pens,
and then cutting.  Even that much saves a lot of time in the cutting
process. - cecwood
-- 
*********************************************************************
*  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood 
*  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)
*********************************************************************
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 19:30:56 1999
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From: "Susan C. Reitmann" <oddjob@scc.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Water sprinklers
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:37:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.153733.0>
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Took my 210 mile round trip to my favorite glass supplier today. While 
there he showed me how to make the greatest water sprinklers with a stained 
glass insert that spins when the water is turned on. Very easy to do and 
all supplies except for one that he had made ( and sells) can be purchased 
at your local hardware/plumbing store. All made with copper tubing and 
copper elbows and relatively inexpensive (?) for the end results. I have 
seen similar in high end gift stores without the stained glass selling for 
way over $100.00.
I have instructions if anybody is interested. ( and hopefully soon a 
picture. )
Sue Reitmann ( Mpls. MN)

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 19:52:08 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: lin <lin@foxinternet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:59:13 -0500
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lin wrote:
> 
> so when you say you didn't use patterns... does that mean that you didn't
> cut out pattern pieces or that you literally did a free hand, free spirit
> kind of panel?! 

Ive been told numerous times Im a free spirit, but Im not *that* free!
;o)  We did not use pattern pieces.  Sorry, I guess that was unclear.

We cut our glass on top of our drawing.

 i can't imagine how that would be done...... maybe i'm just
> dense......
> do you think  you will continue with this method?  

Yes.  I will continue in this method.
I drew my design the first morning of the workshop.  SO...I had only one
cartoon.  I will NOT do that again.  When I was almost finished
assembling my panel...(2 peices left to go) I apparently got a little
aggressive, and tapped in a piece too hard and broke one of the peices.
Thank God it didnt shatter.  It was all I could do to keep from bursting
into tears.  Just ask Steve and Nadine.  I think I sounded a bit like a
sailor at that point.  I took a break and went outside to have a
cigarette and try to chill out.  When I came back, Elisabeth asked where
I had gone and when she saw what happened she stuck a tiny peice of lead
came in the crack.  When I came back in, she very compassionately
said..."just move on.."
I would have ordinarily cut a new piece.  building on top of my
design...I would have had to disassemble the entire panel to recut the
peice.  There was no way at that point in the day I would do that
because I wanted to finish the panel.   I will NEVER do it again without
an extra copy of my design!!!!


any other "nifty" tips or
> techniques that will stick with you? 

Yes, I beleive so.

 i'm still debating about the Seattle
> class but don't think i am going to be able to make it......
> layla

I say If there is any way you can, Do it!  

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 20:23:27 1999
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From: Hilary <hilary@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 22:24:00 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.18240.0>
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"We laughed, we cried, we made it part of ourselves."

First of all, you need to know that there is very important information
that Elisabeth did not warn us about before we signed on to the class.
You know how woolly mammoths had six sets of teeth and as one set wore
out another would grow in? Well, you need replaceable fingers, multiple
sets, and probably a spare set of arms and shoulders would be useful
too. I ache all over. Monday morning I woke up to go to the gym, felt
the soreness in my poor muscles and promptly gave it up! Leading is hard work!

Now, to set the record straight, I did use a very bad word, but I was
under extreme pressure. I apologize. But, well, I learned that cutting
your glass too small is an EXTREMELY bad thing to do. I was one of the
laggards that did not finish her panel because of this lesson.

Next you need to know that one needs to be wary of the strong silent
types. While there was much gnashing of teeth, the token man worked
quietly in his corner and created beauty and finished a close second. I
said rude things to him, which is normal, but I didn't really mean them.

My mind was blown away by the creativity in the room. Every single panel
had some special something about it. Three people actually chose the
same design, but they could not have been more different in the end. One
person used flat lead and her piece had a very traditional look to it.
Another's colors were breath taking. And another's glass choices were
unusual. It amazed me how different the same design could look!

All the other designs were different and wonderful. All the people were
different and wonderful. It was great to have faces to names, though I
did have sympathy for the three people who had no idea what/who bungi
was, because a lot of the conversation...ok, gossip, went right over
there heads. Cecily has already signed on, and I bet the other two won't
be far behind!

Jenna and Meredith stained glass were great!!! It is a long drive for
me, but I hope I can get back for their trade show in October. They were
very very nice and very forgiving of the supposed hours the class was to
run. We went seriously over both nights and they said not a word!

Lastly, Elisabeth...What a wealth of information! What a character!<vbg>
What great kidneys! As the wonderful grinder loomed so close, we were
all waiting and hoping for numerous potty breaks that never came! The
lessons were not so much a solution to every problem, but a mind set to
be in while you are trying to solve a problem or figure/plan something
out. i.e. She didn't give us fish, she taught us how to fish. I only
wish that we had had a third day to spend some time going over each
others panels and what we had learned, getting a serious critique out of
Elisabeth, and discussing more theory. Other than that, it was the best
and most fun class I ever took!

It's great to be back on bungi. See you guys around.

Hilary

P.S. PARTICIPANTS! PLEASE NOTE THAT ALL THE THINGS THAT I THREATENED TO
POST HAVE NOT BEEN POSTED. IF THE CHECKS ARE NOT RECEIVED SOON, THIS CAN
CHANGE VERY QUICKLY!!! <verrrrry verrry big grin>
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Sprinkler
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:47:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.134756.0>
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Sounds awesome! I'd like instructions. thanks =)
christkaiser@yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 22:02:31 1999
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From: CWWSLW@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:07:25 EDT
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Hey all you folks out in bungi land!

I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the brick 
of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no roof.
Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would bring it 
inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice for 
the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold the 
glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with. Would 
this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?

I would appreciate your input so greatly!!

Alabama Susan
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 22:23:56 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: marianne@warner-criv.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Breakfast at Tiffany's, IMPORTANT INVITE!!!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:13:23 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.41323.0>
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BUNGI AT GLASS VISIONS !!!! IMPORTANT!!! IMPORTANT!!!

quote:
 Warner-Crivellaro Invites You To
 Breakfast with Elizabeth
 All Bungians registered to attend Glass Visions are cordially invited to
 have breakfast with their friend Elisabeth Roberg on Saturday, August 28
 from 7:30-9:00.  It will be held upstairs at W-C.
 
 Please respond by Wednesday, August 25 to:
 
 marianne@warner-criv.com


unquote
Dear Bunginian Friends and Attendants to Glass Visions!!!!
This is the Terrible Viking, Elisabeth ('n absent Toby) writing in the middle 
of the night from Lenore's in PA. The above was received during tonight, 
while we were out for a bite to eat, from Marianne Warner. Lenore is now fast 
asleep, but I am still up and abusing her computer.
Marianne requested myself and Lenore to post this on Bungi, if  I accepted 
her invitation. 

Thank you Marianne and Charles! I'll be delighted to say yes.  I
Thank you on behalf of ALL of us  from Bungi.
We all will very much look forward to meeting you both.
As - in deed - will I.... without you, I wouldn't even be here!!!
Elisabeth Roberg
currently in Flourtown, PA
 
 
 

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 22:34:59 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Light table cutting
Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 21:48:38 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug17.144838.0>
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>>I drew my design the first morning of the workshop.  SO...I had only one
cartoon.  I will NOT do that again.  When I was almost finished
assembling my panel...(2 pieces left to go) I apparently got a little
aggressive, and tapped in a piece too hard and broke one of the deices.<<

Only one cartoon is necessary if one of the following three methods is used
to make a replacement piece.

1. Use the broken piece to trace out a new piece.

2. Place a new piece of stained glass over the broken piece area and trace
the cut lines by hand. Remove to the cutting table and cut out.

3. Or if the needed piece is rather dark, use a piece of ordinary scrap
window glass to make a tracing of the cut lines, remove to the cutting
table, place the stained glass on top and cut out.

Bob

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 23:10:49 1999
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X-Path: xtra.co.nz!TMacnicol
From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:09:07 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.597.0>
Precedence: bulk

I use AutoCad R14, to draw my patterns.  At first I was very slow, as I
was only learning to use it for my work (Architecture) but now it has
become an invaluable tool.  I am only working in 2D at the moment.
However I am trying to pick up new skills in 3D so I can use it for lamp
shades and previewing what they will look like.

I'm not sure if you know anything about acad but... you are able to
create layers of drawings that are stacked on top of each other.  Each
layer can have its own line type (ie. solid or dashed etc.) it's own
colour and can be turned on or off at will.  So I am able to draw my
pattern on one layer and thicken up the line to allow for the thickness
of the lead came wall.  Then on another layer, create another line on
each side of the pattern line to illustrate the thickness of the lead
came. Finally I can create layers for each type of glass, colouring in
the spaces with the right pattern and colour.  Even the spaces between
the lead lines can be coloured in so I have a solid lead look to the
drawing.  All of this is to exactly the right size I want.  I can print
a couple of copies and I know they are both the same and not distorted
by the photocopier.

Now that I hace the cad program and have achieved basic literacy in it,
I don't know how I did with out it.

I have looked at connected lines and dragonfly software but after
playing with the demos for a while I became frustrated with not being
able to do do the things I knew could be done on acad.

Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
software?

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 17 23:35:58 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Sprinkler
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:19:51 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.51951.0>
References: <<1999Aug17.134756.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Sounds great, I'd like instructions and I'm looking forward to seeing
pictures!



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 00:00:24 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: cecnralph@home.com, glass@bungi.com, toby@northlights.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: E-Tour surviver
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 01:31:03 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.5313.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello Cecily... And Bunginians,

Glad to have you on-board Bungi. WELCOME!!
Yes, you understood me quite correctly!

You do your "master-drawing" which you do totally accurately, to scale and in 
which you do your lead-lines to correspond to the heart of the lead. This is 
then your Bible, from which you do not divert, you do not change and follow 
through as accurately as humanly possible. You lay your pieces of glass over 
the drawing and cut to the drawing. As the glass you have chose, becomes more 
opaque, you take drawing plus glass to lightbox and cut there. When you 
simply cannot see through any more, THEN you make an extra template of paper, 
card (or I will often use thin picture glass) mark and cut your piece out to 
that. What I have noticed is, that people will make the mistake of making the 
piece of glass fit the template, rather than to the corresponding piece in 
the master drawing. Hence my rather dramatic plea for discarding / forgetting 
about the template. That was just an initial aid. Go back to your drawing and 
forget about the template, said I, or words very similar.

You all entered into "my" teaching enthusiastically and whole-heartedly and I 
am delighted that you got so much out of it. My folks at home in UK are 
already "braying" for the pictures to look at back there. They are also 
complaining that Steve's breakfast seems to take an awful long time (he 
promised to post more pics "after breakfast").
As regards the workshop in Seattle, don't "debate" just join the fun.

In addition, PLEASE NOTE MARIANNE'S INVITATION FOR BREAKFAST ON SATURDAY 28 
FOR ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE REGISTERED FOR GLASS VISIONS!!!!

I have said it before, but it bears repeating! I enjoyed my 2 days with all 
of you tremendeously!!
Elisabeth ('n absent Toby in UK) currently in Flourtown, PA


 
 Layla - if I may butt in, Elisabeth was trying to get us to cut on top
 of a pattern with glass we could see through.  Around here (MD, DC, VA)
 it is (oddly enough) called Englishing, and I have seen really fine
 professional cutters do it and be so ultra accurate that they might only
 have to grind off a couple rough spots in an entire pattern for a leaded
 panel!  
 
 It's easy to see through to your pattern when you have transparent or
 light density.  Medium and medium dense can be done if you have the
 glass on a light table.  For the really opaque though, you just have to
 have pattern pieces on top.  Correct me, glassmates, if I'm wrong, but I
 think Elisabeth suggested you cut out your piece, and then discarded it,
 using the surround as a stencil, rather than the pattern piece as a template.
 
 Unless you have your work at an optimum height, doing it directly on the
 glass over the pattern takes a lot of practice.  Most of us halfway did
 the job, by tracing over the glass with the ubiquitous felt tipped pens,
 and then cutting.  Even that much saves a lot of time in the cutting
 process. - cecwood
 -- 
 *********************************************************************
 *  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood 
 *  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)

 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 01:44:26 1999
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X-Path: villagesoftsmith.com!steve
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: E-Tour surviver
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 00:29:10 -0700
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990818002910.00973be0@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
References: <<1999Aug18.5313.0>>
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At 01:31 AM 8/18/99 EDT, Elisabeth wrote:
>
>My folks at home in UK are 
>already "braying" for the pictures to look at back there. They are also 
>complaining that Steve's breakfast seems to take an awful long time (he 
>promised to post more pics "after breakfast").

Shortly after promising to upload pictures following breakfast, I got a
call from a boss who was supposed to be on vacation.  It was an emergency
(AKA lack of planning), of course.  So my best laid plans went awry.  I
hope to get to the pictures tomorrow.  Sorry about the delay.

Steve

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 02:13:37 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:02:14 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.10214.0>
Precedence: bulk

Can anybody tell me how to set up a filter to route bungi mail into a
separate folder? I have managed to get half of it to go but not the rest!
I'm using IE5.

I subscribe to several lists and find it useful to stream the mail. I have
managed all the others but bungi has defeated me so far.

Best regards

BtB


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 05:13:30 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Sprinkler
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 06:07:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.1726.0>
References: <<1999Aug19.51951.0>>
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Tina Booth wrote:
> 
> Sounds great, I'd like instructions and I'm looking forward to seeing
> pictures!
>
Me too!
David
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 05:49:15 1999
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>, Glass List <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 06:31:33 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug19.597.0>>
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Hi Tina...
	I use SmartDraw...  and have had very good results.  I am, however,
fascinated by the concept of designing the 3D pieces such as you described.
  I have not tried this before, not even sure if it can be done with
SmartDraw.... but I am going to try it....  thanks for the idea.

Barbara Snell

>I have looked at connected lines and dragonfly software but after
>playing with the demos for a while I became frustrated with not being
>able to do do the things I knew could be done on acad.
>
>Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
>software?
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 06:06:39 1999
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From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: Yegnim@aol.com, cecnralph@home.com, glass@bungi.com,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: E-Tour surviver
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 06:38:45 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990818063845.006cd580@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
References: <<1999Aug18.5313.0>>
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Hi Elisabeth,
	I would love to join you for breakfast at WC.... I will be driving down to
Allentown on Sat..a.m. but do not think we will arrive in time for
breakfast.  I do hope to meet you at the show on Saturday.
	I will be traveling with two (non-bungi) friends that I have told I will
be (hopefully) meeting many Bungi friends at the show and look forward to
especially meeting you.....

Barbara Snell

At 01:31 AM 8/18/99 EDT, Yegnim@aol.com wrote:
>Hello Cecily... And Bunginians,
>
>Glad to have you on-board Bungi. WELCOME!!
>Yes, you understood me quite correctly!
>
>You do your "master-drawing" which you do totally accurately, to scale and
in 
>which you do your lead-lines to correspond to the heart of the lead. This is 
>then your Bible, from which you do not divert, you do not change and follow 
>through as accurately as humanly possible. You lay your pieces of glass over 
>the drawing and cut to the drawing. As the glass you have chose, becomes
more 
>opaque, you take drawing plus glass to lightbox and cut there. When you 
>simply cannot see through any more, THEN you make an extra template of
paper, 
>card (or I will often use thin picture glass) mark and cut your piece out to 
>that. What I have noticed is, that people will make the mistake of making
the 
>piece of glass fit the template, rather than to the corresponding piece in 
>the master drawing. Hence my rather dramatic plea for discarding /
forgetting 
>about the template. That was just an initial aid. Go back to your drawing
and 
>forget about the template, said I, or words very similar.
>
>You all entered into "my" teaching enthusiastically and whole-heartedly
and I 
>am delighted that you got so much out of it. My folks at home in UK are 
>already "braying" for the pictures to look at back there. They are also 
>complaining that Steve's breakfast seems to take an awful long time (he 
>promised to post more pics "after breakfast").
>As regards the workshop in Seattle, don't "debate" just join the fun.
>
>In addition, PLEASE NOTE MARIANNE'S INVITATION FOR BREAKFAST ON SATURDAY 28 
>FOR ALL OF YOU WHO HAVE REGISTERED FOR GLASS VISIONS!!!!
>
>I have said it before, but it bears repeating! I enjoyed my 2 days with all 
>of you tremendeously!!
>Elisabeth ('n absent Toby in UK) currently in Flourtown, PA
>
>
> 
> Layla - if I may butt in, Elisabeth was trying to get us to cut on top
> of a pattern with glass we could see through.  Around here (MD, DC, VA)
> it is (oddly enough) called Englishing, and I have seen really fine
> professional cutters do it and be so ultra accurate that they might only
> have to grind off a couple rough spots in an entire pattern for a leaded
> panel!  
> 
> It's easy to see through to your pattern when you have transparent or
> light density.  Medium and medium dense can be done if you have the
> glass on a light table.  For the really opaque though, you just have to
> have pattern pieces on top.  Correct me, glassmates, if I'm wrong, but I
> think Elisabeth suggested you cut out your piece, and then discarded it,
> using the surround as a stencil, rather than the pattern piece as a
template.
> 
> Unless you have your work at an optimum height, doing it directly on the
> glass over the pattern takes a lot of practice.  Most of us halfway did
> the job, by tracing over the glass with the ubiquitous felt tipped pens,
> and then cutting.  Even that much saves a lot of time in the cutting
> process. - cecwood
> -- 
> *********************************************************************
> *  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood 
> *  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)
>
> 
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 06:22:21 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: bobdu@prodigy.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Light table cutting
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:43:41 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.114341.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thank you Bob,
You took the words out of my mouth.
Anyhow, at that time in the morning, still suffering from the time 
differences, my brain hadn't kicked in properly that I thought to say this. I 
often use a thin piece of picture glass to make a template for either a 
broken or opaque piece. I find it much quicker and more accurate than bits of 
paper.
Elisabeth ('n absent Toby in UK) currently in Pennsylvania, USA





In a message dated 08/18/1999 8:09:08 AM !!!First Boot!!!, bobdu@prodigy.net 
writes:

 
 >>I drew my design the first morning of the workshop.  SO...I had only one
 cartoon.  I will NOT do that again.  When I was almost finished
 assembling my panel...(2 pieces left to go) I apparently got a little
 aggressive, and tapped in a piece too hard and broke one of the deices.<<
 
 Only one cartoon is necessary if one of the following three methods is used
 to make a replacement piece.
 
 1. Use the broken piece to trace out a new piece.
 
 2. Place a new piece of stained glass over the broken piece area and trace
 the cut lines by hand. Remove to the cutting table and cut out.
 
 3. Or if the needed piece is rather dark, use a piece of ordinary scrap
 window glass to make a tracing of the cut lines, remove to the cutting
 table, place the stained glass on top and cut out.
 
 Bob
 
 -
 
 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 07:00:46 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 05:19:00 -0700
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Brian Shepherd wrote:
> 
> Can anybody tell me how to set up a filter to route bungi mail into a
> separate folder? I have managed to get half of it to go but not the rest!
> I'm using IE5.
> 
> I subscribe to several lists and find it useful to stream the mail. I have
> managed all the others but bungi has defeated me so far.


For a filter to work, there must be a tag unique to Bungi somewhere in
the email, usually its in the subject.  You can use the email address,
glass@bungi.com for sorting, except 30-50% of the bungi emails don't
have glass@bungi.com anywhere in the To, From, CC etc. It has been
requested several times that the listserv prog add [BUNGI] (or some
other unique tag) to the subject, but it has never been done, apparently
the people here either don't want it (probably because they don't
understand how much easier it makes things) or the admin ppl (the Rands)
don't know how to do it or something else maybe.  In any case its never
been done.  *I* would like it though.  I'm not complaining nor running
down the Rands just stating what the deal is.

Regards .....

HAVE <O^O> FUN ............ Bob
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 07:21:42 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Tina Booth" <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:10:11 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.41011.0>
References: <<1999Aug19.597.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I am using Pattern Wizard. I think it is pretty good, though I've only had
it for about 2 weeks. With it, I can color the glass, make designs, choose
the size of the space between glass, etc. I am getting used to it also, and
think it's pretty neat.  Another nice feature is that you can also choose
the TYPE of glass, which really gives an authentic look to the piece while
you're designing.
I just need to settle down long enough to learn all the tricks.
Mary


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 07:30:45 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:41:11 -0400
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Hi!

Apropos of Alabama Susan's question -- I've been mulling over a similar
idea, whether I could "tile" my kitchen backsplash with a glass mosaic.  
So no rain/sun, but the occasional splash from the sink.  Has anybody
every done this, or seen a book with this kind of project, or have any
advice whatsoever?

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

Alabama Susan wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the brick
> of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no roof.
> Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would bring it
> inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice for
> the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold the
> glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with. Would
> this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?
> 
> I would appreciate your input so greatly!!
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 07:57:48 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:48:13 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug19.597.0>>
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Hi Tina,

Acad sounds really great.  I use Adobe Photoshop -- same layering
capabilities, but no 3-D rendering (which is not a problem for me
since at this point I'm doing strictly 2-D work).  My only 
frustration is that Photoshop allows my imagination and I
to create designs that are (for my skill level, at least) totally 
uncuttable!  At least now I'm starting to recognize it before I 
start cutting --or trying to cut-- the glass.  ;>)

PJ Jellison
jellison@ceps.nasm.edu

Tina Booth wrote:
> 
> Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
> software?
>
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Fw: Light table cutting
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:56:36 -0400
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Subject: Re: Light table cutting


> I have read all the suggestions with much interest!
> I have a little thing I do when I need a piece of opaque glass re-cut at
the
> end of constructing a panel. For instance, once I completely LOST a
piece...
> and was fluxing the project when I noticed it. I took a piece of my
pattern
> paper, slipped it under the blank spot, and traced with a very fine
> mechanical pencil, using the bordering pieces as template. I would have
laid
> the glass on top if it weren't opaque, and found this to be a great way to
> fix the problem.
> I cut the piece of pattern paper very close to the size the hole was in
the
> project so that I only had to shift two pieces of glass to get it in. When
> the piece is finished, and I need to replace an opaque piece, I just lay
the
> paper underneath the entire panel and do the same.
> Remember.. I'm a beginner, and am certainly open to suggestions or
> criticisms.
> Thanks.. Mary
>
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 08:58:00 1999
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From: "Susan C. Reitmann" <oddjob@scc.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Instructions for Sprinkler
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:32:44 -0500
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For all of you that inquired about the instructions, etc. I am working on 
them and will get them out to you (off list). It may take me a day or 
two.hang in there.
Sue Reitmann

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 09:07:49 1999
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Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:13:42 +0000
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I use "mail to: glass-request@bungi.com" from the BODY of the 
message, since that's always there.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 09:11:55 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:49:36 -0400
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Tina Booth wrote:
> 
> I use AutoCad R14, to draw my patterns.  At first I was very slow, as I
> was only learning to use it for my work (Architecture) but now it has
> become an invaluable tool.  I am only working in 2D at the moment.
> However I am trying to pick up new skills in 3D so I can use it for lamp
> shades and previewing what they will look like.
> 
> I'm not sure if you know anything about acad but... you are able to
> create layers of drawings that are stacked on top of each other.  Each
> layer can have its own line type (ie. solid or dashed etc.) it's own
> colour and can be turned on or off at will.  So I am able to draw my
> pattern on one layer and thicken up the line to allow for the thickness
> of the lead came wall.  Then on another layer, create another line on
> each side of the pattern line to illustrate the thickness of the lead
> came. Finally I can create layers for each type of glass, colouring in
> the spaces with the right pattern and colour.  Even the spaces between
> the lead lines can be coloured in so I have a solid lead look to the
> drawing.  All of this is to exactly the right size I want.  I can print
> a couple of copies and I know they are both the same and not distorted
> by the photocopier.
> 
> Now that I hace the cad program and have achieved basic literacy in it,
> I don't know how I did with out it.
> 
> I have looked at connected lines and dragonfly software but after
> playing with the demos for a while I became frustrated with not being
> able to do do the things I knew could be done on acad.
> 
> Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
> software?
> 
> ----
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> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i have acad 2000 but haven't learned it yet. i know how to use acad 2.6,
and this is simaler sort of. i just have to get around to learning and
calibrating it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:03:29 -0700
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Tina Booth wrote:
> 
> I use AutoCad R14, to draw my patterns.  At first I was very slow, as I
> was only learning to use it for my work (Architecture) but now it has
> become an invaluable tool.  I am only working in 2D at the moment.
> However I am trying to pick up new skills in 3D so I can use it for lamp
> shades and previewing what they will look like.
> 
> I'm not sure if you know anything about acad but... you are able to
> create layers of drawings that are stacked on top of each other.  Each
> layer can have its own line type (ie. solid or dashed etc.) it's own
> colour and can be turned on or off at will.  So I am able to draw my
> pattern on one layer and thicken up the line to allow for the thickness
> of the lead came wall.  Then on another layer, create another line on
> each side of the pattern line to illustrate the thickness of the lead
> came. Finally I can create layers for each type of glass, colouring in
> the spaces with the right pattern and colour.  Even the spaces between
> the lead lines can be coloured in so I have a solid lead look to the
> drawing.  All of this is to exactly the right size I want.  I can print
> a couple of copies and I know they are both the same and not distorted
> by the photocopier.
> 
> Now that I hace the cad program and have achieved basic literacy in it,
> I don't know how I did with out it.
> 
> I have looked at connected lines and dragonfly software but after
> playing with the demos for a while I became frustrated with not being
> able to do do the things I knew could be done on acad.
> 
> Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
> software?



I use AutoCAD R13 for a large part of my sg design.  AutoDesk burned us
pretty bad with R13 (been using it since R11 myself) and I refused to
upgrade to R14 in spite of all their hype about how great it is. 
AutoDesk is kinda the Microsoft of the CAD world (by that I mean they
lie to users about features as a matter of course) ... though things
HAVE gotten better in that respect since Carol Bartz took over.  Might
go for the next upgrade, AutoCAD 2000, though, can't get too far behind
... we'll see.  Thing is ... I don't have to upgrade just the base prog,
but mechanical designer and some other addons, so its close to $1,000
overall to upgrade.  

A word of caution to all the non-CAD ppl reading this : all real CAD
programs are expensive, to the tune of $5,000 to $20,000 USD ... and
thats in the USA, the price is usually 1.5x to 3x outside the USA due to
tariffs and a higher cost of doing business abroad.  AutoCAD base price
is around $4,000 USD and this is just a starter as you must buy addons
.... TCO of H/P's ProEngineer is around $30,000 USD per seat.  Also,
they're also not so easy to use unless you have the right sort of
technical background.  Even with training on the program by the mfg's
(and actually this is required unless you're just fiddling around), it
generally takes tech ppl 6 months to a year before they can do anything
worthwhile in CAD due to the complexity of the program itself.  People
who have CAD programs for other reasons and then get into sg work use
it, but otherwise I wouldn't recommend a non-tech person getting into
CAD at this level for stained glass alone.  However, for strictly 2D
work, a simple CAD prog combined with PSP/Photoshop (vide infra) could
be useful.  I tried out a CAD-like program supposedly specifically for
sg work, but I found it basically to be a toy and not useful; just my
opinion, maybe I'm spoiled <G>.

AutoCAD (and other CAD progs) is a nice way to layout certain types of
designs for stained glass.  Obviously the geometric designs with
straight lines and circles/arcs are well-suited for CAD layout.  Since
the introduction of NURBS (Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines) to AutoCad in
R13 its been easier to do lines that aren't straight, but still
difficult to get such designs exactly right in an organic manner, at
least for sg artwork it is.  In terms of art styles, traditional and/or
classic designs are relatively straightforward, but something like Art
Nouveau is difficult with CAD.  Its easier and simpler to simply do a
couple of sketches for the initial idea, then do a more precise sketch
using exact proportions for the outer edges, and then put it on an
overhead projector and trace it out on a large piece of paper.  When I
do a design in AutoCAD, I get it printed out to scale at a place that
specializes in CAD printouts on a 36" wide plotter using a roll of paper
(as long as you want) for $0.80/sq ft (pre-plotted print file, starting
from the DWG file its $3.25/sq ft).

What I do for "regular" designs (those can can easily be done in CAD),
is do the design in AutoCAD, export in WMF format, open the WMF file in
PaintShopPro, and save it in PSP format.  At that point I take glass
files downloaded from the web (mostly jpeg's, though I have a few gif's
and tiff's), and paste them into the pattern.  The final result looks
very much like a photo of a finished stained glass piece though one can
tell its not if you know what to look for.  One can then save the design
in whatever file format you want (jpeg or whatever) and show them to
clients (prospective or otherwise) even at long distance if the client
has a connection to the internet.

Now when one is either rendering or pasting a glass with a regular
pattern (like Spectrum's waterglass) this is straightforward.  However,
with swirled colors as one has commonly with most of the Tiffany-style
glasses, getting the glass the way you want isn't so easy and requires a
lot of manipulations (rotation, resizing, cropping).  For 2D its hard
enough, for 3D I suspect its even more difficult, maybe essentially
impossible given normal time constraints.

To do 3D work (surfaces or solids either one) means you have to have to
do the layout in 3D, and then render it with the proper materials being
attached to either the individual objects or to an entire layer.  The
materials have to have the right transparency and color depth starting
from the glass files from photos/scans of actual sg as well as the
lighting being properly placed for rendering.  This shouldn't be too
hard though it is time consuming to setup your library.  I started doing
a little of this, but decided it wasn't worth my time.  This DOES take
time, and probably less time than actually making the glass for small
projects.  By small I mean single windows not larger than 3' x 4'
total.  Not worth the time unless its for a major project.  By a major
project, I mean a few hundred (or thousand) sq ft of glass for a large
downtown building or something like that. For those types of projects, I
suspect that in less than 10 years, all major projects will be done in
CAD first, get everybody to agree, and then constructed.  These large
projects are all done in teams (companies) anyway with separate
departments for sales, marketing, art/design, glass cutters/assemblers,
shipping/receiving ... and so on.  I suspect that CAD will find its
place as an extention to the art/design dept of such orgs.

Anyway, I gotta go .... regards to all ....

HAVE <O^O> FUN ..... Bob
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Subject: Re: Water sprinklers
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:36:01 EDT
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Would love the sprinkler instructions, sounds great!
Luanne 
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Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:52:18 -0700
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PJ Jellison wrote:
> My only
> frustration is that Photoshop allows my imagination and I
> to create designs that are (for my skill level, at least) totally
> uncuttable!  At least now I'm starting to recognize it before I
> start cutting --or trying to cut-- the glass.  ;>)

I have found this to be the hard part too <smile>.

Regards ......... Bob
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To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed Aug 18 08:59:01 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.6371.0>
References: <<3.0.3.32.19990818063133.006b1aec@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>>
Precedence: bulk

linda campbell has done some work on the cad cam program in
3-D...haven't heard from her in a while but i sell two of her
lighthouses that are 3-D that she designed on a cad
linda, you out there?

debbie

kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616
http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/glasschat

-----Original Message-----
From: Barbara [mailto:bjs10@cornell.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 6:32 AM
To: Tina Booth; Glass List
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM


Hi Tina...
	I use SmartDraw...  and have had very good results.  I am,
however,
fascinated by the concept of designing the 3D pieces such as you
described.
  I have not tried this before, not even sure if it can be done
with
SmartDraw.... but I am going to try it....  thanks for the idea.

Barbara Snell

>I have looked at connected lines and dragonfly software but after
>playing with the demos for a while I became frustrated with not
being
>able to do do the things I knew could be done on acad.
>
>Are any of you "bungi list people" using cad programs or design
>software?
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 10:55:17 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: kleeman@one.net, Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:16:32 -0400
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References: <<LOBBIOADAJPIGFEJIAPCGEEJFLAA.kleeman@one.net>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
Precedence: bulk

Heh heh -- I KNEW that sooner or later, somebody on
this list would give me an excuse to think about getting
 a kiln! ;>)

Thanks!

PJ

Debbie Taylor wrote:
> 
> have seen it done, the one thing the person i read about did that i
> had not thought of, she put the pieces in the kiln after she cut
> them to soften the edges --
> really made a difference in the finished appearance also
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PJ Jellison [mailto:jellison@ceps.nasm.edu]

> Hi!
> 
> Apropos of Alabama Susan's question -- I've been mulling over a
> similar idea, whether I could "tile" my kitchen backsplash with a glass
> mosaic. So no rain/sun, but the occasional splash from the sink.  Has
> anybody every done this, or seen a book with this kind of project, or have
> any advice whatsoever?
>
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 10:55:43 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:34:29 +0000
Message-ID: <199908181633.MAA22642@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> Next time I'll wait a while before saying my usual stupidities <G>.

Glad it worked for you, Bob. Remember, though, there are no stupid 
questions (or comments); there are only stupid answers. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 11:18:31 1999
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X-Path: heesun.com!keane
From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Glass Tiles
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:07:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.8738.0>
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We have done these using fused glass tiles which we made specifically for
the customer.  We textured the back of the tile to give them a little more
"tooth" and set them using tile mastic, then grouted as one would normally
grout tile.  They worked great and the customer loved them.

You might want to check with your local shop and see if they would fire
polish all your glass pieces once you had them cut out to round off the
edges a little like tile.


Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 11:26:34 1999
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From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:35:18 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.83518.0>
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i did a 3x4' mosaic on my bathroom wall.

i prepared the wallboard by painting it with a primer, then used normal tile
mastic to stick the glass onto the wall. it tended to slip a bit, so i just
used masking tape to hold the piece in place. after about an hour, i removed
the masking tape. the next day i used normal sanded tile grout to fill in
the spaces.

i haven't seen any problems with the high humidity, so it should be ok in
the kitchen too.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: PJ Jellison [mailto:jellison@ceps.nasm.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:41 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Gotta question!


Hi!

Apropos of Alabama Susan's question -- I've been mulling over a similar
idea, whether I could "tile" my kitchen backsplash with a glass mosaic.  
So no rain/sun, but the occasional splash from the sink.  Has anybody
every done this, or seen a book with this kind of project, or have any
advice whatsoever?

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

Alabama Susan wrote:
> 
> I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the
brick
> of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no
roof.
> Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would bring
it
> inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice
for
> the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold the
> glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with.
Would
> this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?
> 
> I would appreciate your input so greatly!!
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 11:43:44 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:23:09 -0700
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Precedence: bulk



Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> I use "mail to: glass-request@bungi.com" from the BODY of the
> message, since that's always there.

Quite right.  I just did that and it works fine.  Obviously I don't use
filters much .... duhhhhhh.

Thanks to you and .... ummmmmm ... Mary Lou ... for pointing that out.

Next time I'll wait a while before saying my usual stupidities <G>.

Regards ...... Bob
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 11:51:40 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:52:06 +0000
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> Albert, some mail programs like mine only give you "To, Cc, Bcc, &
> Subject" as filter options.  Wish I had the body option.

Ah, Karen, too bad. I use Pegasus, which is free. If you're 
interested, you can download it free at http://download.com/

Just type "pegasus" in the first search box you see and you'll get a 
list of all the different flavors of the program that are available. 
Choose the one that's right for you and install it. You'll be glad 
you did. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 11:56:51 1999
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X-Path: swcp.com!lgoga
From: Larry Goga <lgoga@swcp.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: CAD for the Mac
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:13:40 -0600
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For those of you who may have a Macintosh, I have been using MacDraft v4.3
for stained glass designs.  As mentioned in a previous thread, it also
supports multiple layers, colored fills and various line weights and
styles.  I have tried using AutoCAD and Claris CAD and other similar
drawing programs but always return to MacDraft.  Although it is only a 2D
program, it works just the way I was taught to do a mechanical drawing.
That is to say that first you pick the   scale and then you pick the paper
size and then everything you draw is in that scale.

The program supports drawings up to 56 inches by 56 inches in size.  The
program also supports the capability to import photos and put them on a
layer.  Then, on a separate layer, I create my cartoon.

I use this program in conjunction with an old Houston Instruments single
pen plotter driven by MacPlot Professional software.  Using this system I
can create cartoons up to 21 by 32 inches in size, and plot out multiple
pages for larger projects.

For anyone who might be interested, more information on both MacDraft and
MacPlot can be obtained at http://www.microspot.com  Both of these programs
are in the $400 to $500 range.  I have tried less expensive software but it
just doesn't have all the features I have become accustomed to using.

Hope this helps.

Larry Goga


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 12:17:38 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: HELP, MY COMPUTER BURPED
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:05:37 -0700
Message-ID: <199908181705.KAA26254@mimas.island.net>
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Hi all, especially Steve 

My computer decided to burp this morning and I have lost ALL my email
addresses for everybody and everything from the last 6 months.  

Steve...please send me the who's who on bungi list asap so I can start
rebuilding at least part of my email directory.

Anyone else I've been emailing with lately, please send me your address.

Thanks

Carol Swann
(who's very annoyed with technology today!)

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 12:34:25 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:46:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.34616.0>
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>>The
materials have to have the right transparency and color depth starting
from the glass files from photos/scans of actual sg as well as the
lighting being properly placed for rendering.  This shouldn't be too
hard though it is time consuming to setup your library.  I started doing
a little of this, but decided it wasn't worth my time.  <<

American Bevel Designer ll (about $175.00, free demo at
http://americanbevel.com ) is a CAD program designed for stained glass. Sold
as a separate disk for $5.00 is a glass library for both Spectrum and
Kokomo. This was current when published about a year ago. It does a fair job
of showing glass texture and whispy glass.

I suspect the disk would work with other programs but have not tried that.

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:02:35 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Light table cutting
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:02:09 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.429.0>
References: <<1999Aug17.144838.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

If I may add a #4 (for use when the broken piece is too broken to trace).

#4.  Before disassembling the panel:  Place a piece of paper over the panel
and do a charcoal/graphite rubbing of the lead lines around the broken
piece.  Cut the replacement piece sufficiently inside the new "rubbed"
pattern line to account for the lead channel depth.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Light table cutting


> >>I drew my design the first morning of the workshop.  SO...I had only one
> cartoon.  I will NOT do that again.  When I was almost finished
> assembling my panel...(2 pieces left to go) I apparently got a little
> aggressive, and tapped in a piece too hard and broke one of the deices.<<
>
> Only one cartoon is necessary if one of the following three methods is
used
> to make a replacement piece.
>
> 1. Use the broken piece to trace out a new piece.
>
> 2. Place a new piece of stained glass over the broken piece area and trace
> the cut lines by hand. Remove to the cutting table and cut out.
>
> 3. Or if the needed piece is rather dark, use a piece of ordinary scrap
> window glass to make a tracing of the cut lines, remove to the cutting
> table, place the stained glass on top and cut out.
>
> Bob
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:13:47 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:33:31 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.43331.0>
References: <<199908181412.KAA19757@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Since you have IE5 (Outlook Express 5), this works great.  Outlook Express 4
did not allow rules based on the "body" of a message.

So for all of you on 4, you may want to think about upgrading.

----- Original Message -----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders


> I use "mail to: glass-request@bungi.com" from the BODY of the
> message, since that's always there.
>
> Albert
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:26:46 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Cutting Opaque Glass (was: Re: Re:E-Tour surviver)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:03:54 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.4354.0>
References: <<1999Aug17.171832.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

I find I can cut 95% of my glass on top of the light table.  I was even able
to cut my old Merry-go-round midnight blue on the light table with minor
modifications (one of the darkest glasses I have ever used).

1. I have an extra set of flourescents in my light table I can turn on when
I need it really bright.

2. When the pattern line through the glass is still too faint to see for
actual scoring, I find I can often still see it if I am right over it up
close.  I grab my glass marking pen and quickly trace on the glass over the
line I can barely see.

One note: I have sometimes had problems doing ring-mottle glass this way.
The ring mottles seem to diffract the light making the line appear to be in
a different position than it truly is.  To compensate, you need to view the
line straight down through the glass rather than at an angle.  Sometimes
this means you have to be a bit of a contortionist.

And for those really opaque pieces, I love Elisabeth's idea of using the
surround as a stencil.  I had not thought of that!  Sometimes I just have to
kick myself for missing really simple elegant solutions like this...  Thanks
Elisabeth  - even though I'm not in the class, you are still teaching me.

Tim Atwood
Stained Glass * Fine Woodwork * Metalwork * Architectural Detailing
Holtenwood Studios - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
To: Bungi Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:18 PM
Subject: Re:E-Tour surviver


...<snip>
> For the really opaque though, you just have to
> have pattern pieces on top.  Correct me, glassmates, if I'm wrong, but I
> think Elisabeth suggested you cut out your piece, and then discarded it,
> using the surround as a stencil, rather than the pattern piece as a
template.
>
...<snip>




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:30:02 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:29:35 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.42935.0>
References: <<1999Aug19.597.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

There are also a couple of simplified Cad programs specifically designed for
stained glass if you do not want the complexity (and cost) of AutoCad.  Both
American Bevel's "Designer" and Dragonfly Software's "The Glass Eye" have
been discussed in previous Bungi posts.  These should be in the archives.
There have also been reviews of both programs in "Common Ground: Glass", but
I believe you have to be an IGGA member to access the old issues online.

I personally use "Designer II" from American Bevel.  The original decision
was mostly based on the glass libraries available with Designer II.  At the
time, "The Glass Eye" was not able to put digital scans of glass into the
design.  Since much of the purpose of the software is to run ideas past
clients, I had to be able to make the designs reflect the true colours of
the glass I intended to use as much as possible.

However, there was a note several months ago that Dragonfly was soon to add
glass scan images to their software.  Has this happened yet?

----- Original Message -----
From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 10:09 PM
Subject: CAD PROGRAM


> I use AutoCad R14, to draw my patterns.

...<snip>



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:31:05 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Be Free! (was: Re: E tour survivor! ;o))
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:03:03 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.433.0>
References: <<1999Aug17.155913.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

But you can be *that* free!  I cut at least half my windows "free hand".

1.  Cut the first piece the way you want and what looks best with the piece
of glass being cut.  Totally free hand.

2.  Use the edges of this piece as a template for the next ones.

a. Lay a sheet of paper on the light table.  I have a big roll of the paper
used to cover tables at functions (available at any party and/or party
rental store), mounted on a rod with a utility knife attached on a string
just over my light table.  Pull, slice, and 5 seconds later a new sheet is
on the light table.

b. Lay the piece just cut on paper.  Trace around the important edges.
"Calligraphy" felt tip pens come in a variety of chisel tip widths just
perfect to account for every heart thickness of lead came.  Or, for foil, a
standard point felt tip is the perfect width.

c. Cut the edges of the new piece to the side of the trace line opposite the
original piece.

d. Cut the remaining edges of the new piece free hand.

(Note: "c" and "d" may be fairly easily reversed if required for running the
score lines)

e. Place the new piece back on the evolving pattern aligned properly against
the old trace lines.  Trace the new edges as needed.  Repeat the process
using the new and old lines on this evolving pattern to cut more pieces.

And you have what is pretty close to a "free hand" panel.

Tim Atwood
Stained Glass * Fine Woodwork * Metalwork * Architectural Detailing
Holtenwood Studios - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: lin <lin@foxinternet.net>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)


...<snip>
> Ive been told numerous times Im a free spirit, but Im not *that* free!
,,,<snip>




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:33:59 1999
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From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Glass Tiles
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:39:56 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.103956.0>
Precedence: bulk

since you only need to firepolish the edges, you can use a normal propane
torch that one would use for plumbing jobs, like sweating copper pipes. you
just have to remember to heat the glass slowly, and let cool off gradually
and it shouldn't shatter.

i recently did this for some glass rods i was using in a kaleidoscope i'm in
the process of making.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert & Jeanne [mailto:keane@heesun.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 9:08 AM
To: Bungi
Subject: Glass Tiles


We have done these using fused glass tiles which we made specifically for
the customer.  We textured the back of the tile to give them a little more
"tooth" and set them using tile mastic, then grouted as one would normally
grout tile.  They worked great and the customer loved them.

You might want to check with your local shop and see if they would fire
polish all your glass pieces once you had them cut out to round off the
edges a little like tile.


Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:41:46 1999
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: Barbara Snell <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:45:22 -0400
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References: <<3.0.3.32.19990818063133.006b1aec@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>>
Precedence: bulk

I use the curved lines and manipulate them to go where I want them to go...   I also use the ruler and the graph...  I flip, rotate and nudge lines as well as make shapes that are standard and put them in a library to use again as needed....

I also have designed a variety of standard shaped frames..... that I can draw new designs into and then print.  I use a standard enlarging formula (desired dimensions divided by pattern dimensions equals number of times to be enlarged).  Of course that has to be nudged a little too sometimes.

How about if I send you one of my patterns so you can see more..... 


Barbara


At 02:35 PM 8/18/99 -0400, you wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Barbara wrote:

>

>> Hi Tina...

>> 	I use SmartDraw...  and have had very good results. <<snip>

>> 

>I also have SmartDraw but have been unable to use it to draw with.  I

>find it very easy to use if you are using predefined shapes/templates and

>connecting them with lines as in floor layout or network diagrams.  I

>would be interested in hearing how you do it.

>Jim

>

>

<center><paraindent><param>out,out</param><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

</color><bold><color><param>8080,0000,0000</param>Barbara J. Snell

Manager, Balch Dining

Cornell University

255-5538

</color></bold></paraindent></center><color><param>0000,0000,8080</param>			
              </color>
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:48:06 1999
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From: "Drag, Gloria J." <draggj@westinghouse.com>
To: 'PJ Jellison' <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>, 'Bungi List' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: RE: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:58:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.95837.0>
Precedence: bulk

I had the vanity  of my bathroom sink done in small ceramic tiles.. I had a
contractor do the work for me, well anyways, almost a year later the tile
started to lift/wave.. I believe it was the fiber board and water
combination.. Next time I do anything, I would find some great sealer before
applying the tile or glass.. Thought this would apply to the back splash of
your kitchen project..  Can any one add to this.. and maybe tell me what
products or coatings would be best.. Had applied many sealers to the
finished ceramic piece, but it did not work.. 

> ----------
> From: 	PJ Jellison[SMTP:jellison@ceps.nasm.edu]
> Sent: 	Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:41 AM
> To: 	glass@bungi.com
> Subject: 	Re: Gotta question!
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Apropos of Alabama Susan's question -- I've been mulling over a similar
> idea, whether I could "tile" my kitchen backsplash with a glass mosaic.  
> So no rain/sun, but the occasional splash from the sink.  Has anybody
> every done this, or seen a book with this kind of project, or have any
> advice whatsoever?
> 
> Cheers,
> PJ Jellison
> 
> Alabama Susan wrote:
> > 
> > I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the
> brick
> > of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no
> roof.
> > Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would
> bring it
> > inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice
> for
> > the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold
> the
> > glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with.
> Would
> > this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?
> > 
> > I would appreciate your input so greatly!!
> ----
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From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:35:39 -0400 (EDT)
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Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Barbara wrote:

> Hi Tina...
> 	I use SmartDraw...  and have had very good results. <snip>
> 
I also have SmartDraw but have been unable to use it to draw with.  I
find it very easy to use if you are using predefined shapes/templates and
connecting them with lines as in floor layout or network diagrams.  I
would be interested in hearing how you do it.
Jim

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:51:21 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re:E-Tour surviver
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:21:57 -0400
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Message text written by Cecily and Ralph Wood
>I have seen really fine
professional cutters do it and be so ultra accurate that they might only
have to grind off a couple rough spots in an entire pattern for a leaded
panel!  <

Only if they don't wear bi-focals!  And around this studio
we don't use grinders too much as almost everybody on
bungi knows!  That, too, is a European thing.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:57:05 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Re:E-Tour surviver
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 11:02:30 -0700
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Organization: Holtenwood Studios
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This is how I have always done it.

Here I always thought I was being a free spirit.  But now I find I'm just
doing
what those Englishers (if it's called Englishing I suppose) have been doing
all along.

My ego will never be the same (or at least not for the next hour or so).

----- Original Message -----
From: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
To: Bungi Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 6:18 PM
Subject: Re:E-Tour surviver


> Layla - if I may butt in, Elisabeth was trying to get us to cut on top
> of a pattern with glass we could see through.  Around here (MD, DC, VA)
> it is (oddly enough) called Englishing, and I have seen really fine
> professional cutters do it and be so ultra accurate that they might only
> have to grind off a couple rough spots in an entire pattern for a leaded
> panel!
>
> It's easy to see through to your pattern when you have transparent or
> light density.  Medium and medium dense can be done if you have the
> glass on a light table.  For the really opaque though, you just have to
> have pattern pieces on top.  Correct me, glassmates, if I'm wrong, but I
> think Elisabeth suggested you cut out your piece, and then discarded it,
> using the surround as a stencil, rather than the pattern piece as a
template.
>
> Unless you have your work at an optimum height, doing it directly on the
> glass over the pattern takes a lot of practice.  Most of us halfway did
> the job, by tracing over the glass with the ubiquitous felt tipped pens,
> and then cutting.  Even that much saves a lot of time in the cutting
> process. - cecwood
> --
> *********************************************************************
> *  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood
> *  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)
> *********************************************************************
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 13:58:32 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glshorse@ior.com, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:59:14 -0500
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> excuse me Suzanne...I am not trying to rag on you..but after ALL THIS
> TALK about "breast is best" for baby you SMOKE?

Thank you for your concern, Liz.  However, my kids are all weaned, and
even breastfeeders arent perfect.   I also bite my fingernails.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 14:05:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Message text written by "Albert Lewis"
>I use "mail to: glass-request@bungi.com" from the BODY of the =

message, since that's always there.
<

I thought that was just for un- and subscribing....

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 14:12:41 1999
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Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:01:11 -0500
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I apologise for making that last email public.  I only now realised it
was sent to me privately.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 14:31:39 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "seaspray@island.net" <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: HELP, MY COMPUTER BURPED
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:21:24 -0400
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Good grief, child, your karma of late
is unbelievable!  Got your note about
the book, thanks.  That lucky dog has
an original Twining book.... arghhh.
There is no equity in life!

Glad you're a bit better.... remember there's
still a place for you if you decide to join us
for the glass painting, but only if you're
really feeling up to it.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 14:34:54 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: FW: Glass Tiles
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:51:53 +0000
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> since you only need to firepolish the edges, you can use a normal
> propane torch that one would use for plumbing jobs, like sweating
> copper pipes. you just have to remember to heat the glass slowly,
> and let cool off gradually and it shouldn't shatter.

"shouldn't" being the warning word there, Charlie. The glass may not 
break now or even soon, but it'll probably shatter at some point in 
the future. Nature of the material: it's got to be properly annealed.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 15:09:16 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:09:10 -0700
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>>Sure wouldn't mind trying this if Dick,the owner of A.B. hadn't
gotten bent out of shape with Albert about not paying his
advertising bill for Common Ground.... and told Albert to
tell the rest of the board to do something anatomically
impossible to ourselves. Yup, I think Dick is a rather
appropriate name for the fella.... LOL.

Best,

Dani<<

It seems to me that Albert should pay his bill at Common Ground. :-)

Anyway the correct URL for American Bevel is: http://www.americanbevel.com

Bob

Ps: A.B. got taken to the cleaners on rec.crafts.glass a couple of months
ago for a similar incident. Check Dejanews.

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 15:35:34 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <Romajoco@aol.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:01:47 -0400
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Wizard@sgdesigns.com is the mailing address for Patrick Roberts, who owns
the Pattern Wizard.
Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: <Romajoco@aol.com>
To: <embee@mediaone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM


> In a message dated 8/18/99 9:22:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
> embee@mediaone.net writes:
>
> << I am using Pattern Wizard. I think it is pretty good, though I've only
had
>  it for about 2 weeks. With it, I can color the glass, make designs,
choose
>  the size of the space between glass, etc. I am getting used to it also,
and
>  think it's pretty neat.  Another nice feature is that you can also choose
>  the TYPE of glass, which really gives an authentic look to the piece
while
>  you're designing.
>  I just need to settle down long enough to learn all the tricks.
>  Mary >>
>
>
> Mary, where did you get the Pattern Wizard.
>
> Margie


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 15:41:02 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: "'Bungi List'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:32:42 -0400
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Fiberboard and water? No no no! eeewww. I'd rather have green sheetrock,
only costs pennies more than regular sheetrock and doesn't turn to mush and
swell with moisture, good for bathrooms too. A good quality plywood might do
also but I don't think it is as rigid, which you need so things don't crack.

Kris, pretending to know stuff about construction :o) corrections welcome

> I had the vanity  of my bathroom sink done in small ceramic tiles.. I had
a
> contractor do the work for me, well anyways, almost a year later the tile
> started to lift/wave.. I believe it was the fiber board and water
> combination.. Next time I do anything, I would find some great sealer
before
> applying the tile or glass.. Thought this would apply to the back splash
of
> your kitchen project..  Can any one add to this.. and maybe tell me what
> products or coatings would be best.. Had applied many sealers to the
> finished ceramic piece, but it did not work..


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 16:02:31 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Thats how I was taught
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 14:32:50 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.73250.0>
Precedence: bulk

Way back in the 70's when I took my 1st lesson (I must have still been
in the womb!) I was taught to cut the "English" way as well. I only cut
paper pieces for the glass I asolutely cannot see through, and do very
little grinding. When I started searching the internet, and read that
most people cut every piece out and stuck to the patterns religiously,
I felt a little guilty! Imagine that =P I thought I was being a little
lazy. But I do stick with what works for me. Im glad to know Im not
such a lazy butt. 
take care
chris

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 16:06:01 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:47 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.134047.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>I apologise for making that last email public.  I only now realised it
was sent to me privately.<

Non-glass subjects, unless in rare cases when
they pertain to the entire group, should always
be private.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 16:34:22 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:18:50 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.81850.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.34616.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

I have NOT been able to get the Designer II glass libraries to work with
other programs.  The Designer I libraries had separate jpg files, but the
Designer II format seems to combine the separate files in some other format.

But all is not lost!  You can get jpg images for Spectrum and Kokomo plus
many others (Uroboros and I think maybe Yough. and Armstrong) from their web
sites.  They have the option of downloading their entire online catalogue
which will include all the jpg files.  If they do not have that, you can
right click on any glass image they show online and save the jpg file.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 10:46 AM
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM


> American Bevel Designer ll (about $175.00, free demo at
> http://americanbevel.com ) is a CAD program designed for stained glass.
Sold
> as a separate disk for $5.00 is a glass library for both Spectrum and
> Kokomo. This was current when published about a year ago. It does a fair
job
> of showing glass texture and whispy glass.
>
> I suspect the disk would work with other programs but have not tried that.
>
> Bob
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 16:38:09 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 99 04:48:31 
Message-ID: <199908182255.QAA11772@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

Sure it's easy! My fusing students all do a tile project.... I figure out what the overall is, 
divide it as evenly as possible, (don't forget to figure out the grout spacing), fuse a 
couple layers together, and with mastic, put on wall and grout.. or better yet, put on a 
wood backboard, and screw it into wall anchors on the wall.... that way it's removable.

Candy
On Wed, 18 Aug 1999 08:41:11 -0400, PJ Jellison wrote:

>PJ Jellison
>
>Alabama Susan wrote:
>> 
>> I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the brick
>> of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no roof.
>> Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would bring it
>> inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice for
>> the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold the
>> glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with. Would
>> this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?
>> 
>> I would appreciate your input so greatly!!
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 16:59:21 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:55:20 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.85520.0>
References: <<016b01bee9c8$5bd57780$20098118@net.mediaone.net>>
Precedence: bulk

In OE5, check the box for "Where the message body contains specific words".
Then choose part of the text from any of those three lines that appear at
the bottom of every Bungi message.  My rule ended up looking like the
following:

Apply this rule after the message arrives
Where the message body contains 'please mail to: glass@bungi.com'
Move it to the * Bungi folder

(Note that "*" is not anything special.  It is actually the first character
of the name of the folder.  It causes the folder to sort to the top of the
other folders in alphabetical order.  It also differentiates the "* Bungi"
folder which I use for receiving all Bungi messages, from the "Bungi" folder
which I use only for Bungi messages I want to permanently save.)

----- Original Message -----
From: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
To: Tim Atwood <studios@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders


> You're amazing! I DO thank you yet again! All system's go! One more
thing...
> I put it so that the "from" has bungi.com, but that won't work, will it?
How
> do you specify the filter?
> Thanks, Tim...
> Mary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
> To: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 6:18 PM
> Subject: Re: NG - filtering bungi into folders
>
>
> > <Tools> <Message Rules> <Mail>
> > <New> to add a new rule
> > Note, the actual details of the rule are entered by clicking on the
"blue"
> > fields in the bottom window pane.
> >
...<snip>

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 17:07:02 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 15:32:25 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.83225.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.7910.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

It is my understanding Dick went through a very messy family situation back
then.  I get the impression he "lost it" for a while there pretty much with
everyone and everything.  Not to excuse this sort of behaviour.  It is
inexcusable to carry personal problems into work relationship to this
extreme.  However, it does mean he may not behave the same way in the
future.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM


> >>Sure wouldn't mind trying this if Dick,the owner of A.B. hadn't
> gotten bent out of shape with Albert about not paying his
> advertising bill for Common Ground.... and told Albert to
> tell the rest of the board to do something anatomically
> impossible to ourselves. Yup, I think Dick is a rather
> appropriate name for the fella.... LOL.
>
> Best,
>
> Dani<<
>
> It seems to me that Albert should pay his bill at Common Ground. :-)
>
> Anyway the correct URL for American Bevel is: http://www.americanbevel.com
>
> Bob
>
> Ps: A.B. got taken to the cleaners on rec.crafts.glass a couple of months
> ago for a similar incident. Check Dejanews.
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 17:15:22 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: E tour survivor! ;o)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:43 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.134043.0>
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>> excuse me Suzanne...I am not trying to rag on you..but after ALL THIS
> TALK about "breast is best" for baby you SMOKE?

Thank you for your concern, Liz.  However, my kids are all weaned, and
even breastfeeders arent perfect.   I also bite my fingernails.
-- =

Suzanne
<

What does this have to do with glass??  Puh-leeze gals.
Some of us aren't remotely interested in breast-feeding,
smoking, or whether you chew your toe nails!  What
will it take to get the message through to you, hmmm?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 17:57:16 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <Romajoco@aol.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:54:01 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.13541.0>
References: <<c8ab684.24ec6c65@aol.com>>
Precedence: bulk

Margie.. did you get the email address for Pattern Wizard? Also their
website is:
http://sgdesigns.com/
Mary
----- Original Message -----
From: <Romajoco@aol.com>
To: <embee@mediaone.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM


> In a message dated 8/18/99 9:22:53 AM Central Daylight Time,
> embee@mediaone.net writes:
>
> << I am using Pattern Wizard. I think it is pretty good, though I've only
had
>  it for about 2 weeks. With it, I can color the glass, make designs,
choose
>  the size of the space between glass, etc. I am getting used to it also,
and
>  think it's pretty neat.  Another nice feature is that you can also choose
>  the TYPE of glass, which really gives an authentic look to the piece
while
>  you're designing.
>  I just need to settle down long enough to learn all the tricks.
>  Mary >>
>
>
> Mary, where did you get the Pattern Wizard.
>
> Margie


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 18:24:44 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!CWWSLW
From: CWWSLW@aol.com
To: atwoods@aisl.bc.ca, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Be Free! (was: Re: E tour survivor! ;o))
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:00:30 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.23030.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanks so much for that post Tim!!!

Now, out to the garage to cut glass..
I HAVE BEEN INSPIRED!!

Alabama Susan
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 18:26:09 1999
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X-Path: pro-ns.net!jdahlin
From: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:40:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.124019.0>
Precedence: bulk

I took a class recently on making kaleidoscopes and the shop owner said
that Front Surface Glass is almost impossible to cut.  Is this true?
Any hints?

He also mentioned that same evening that twisting wire was very hard to
do and you could never get it even.  I would hate to tell him how many
pounds of wire we have twisted with my husband's cordless screw driver.

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 18:41:35 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:35:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.153530.0>
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>It seems to me that Albert should pay his bill at Common Ground. :-)<

What bill?  We owe him for lots of free labor
if anything!  And you thought slavery was illegal!!
Hahaha!  =


Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 18:52:58 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:51:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.155124.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by "Candy Thurman"
> or better yet, put on a =

wood backboard, and screw it into wall anchors on the wall.... that way
it's removable.<

.... a good idea with any mural, mosaic or not.  Also
very handy on a commission because you can do
most of the work in your studio, leaving spaces to
screw in to the wall... then cover the screws with tile
at the customer's location.  Gets you inandoutathere
real fast.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 18:58:11 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Thats how I was taught
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:18:46 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.151846.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.73250.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Chris Kaiser wrote:
> 
> Way back in the 70's when I took my 1st lesson (I must have still been
> in the womb!) I was taught to cut the "English" way as well. I only cut
> paper pieces for the glass I asolutely cannot see through, and do very
> little grinding. When I started searching the internet, and read that
> most people cut every piece out and stuck to the patterns religiously,
> I felt a little guilty! Imagine that =P I thought I was being a little
> lazy. But I do stick with what works for me. Im glad to know Im not
> such a lazy butt.
> take care
> chris
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 


i don't even bother cutting out a pattern for hard to cut pieces.
ususally i'll line the pattern up on the glass, and use carbon paper to
transfer. then trace it with a marker. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 19:15:53 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Be Free (But Know Where You Are Going)
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 18:30:36 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.113036.0>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

My original post "Be Free!" neglected an important part of being free.  As a
responsible artist/artisan, I feel I must add something here about what I
consider to be a truly "professional" attitude about creating art.

I also refuse to put "NG" on the title to this.  Although it is much more
general than just stained glass, it is also central to the art of stained
glass.  I feel it is central to many of the past discussions about lead
versus foil, grinding versus not, patterns versus freehand, new materials
versus old, and any of the other discussions about traditional techniques
versus new ones.

One of my art teachers in University said it best.  So I will now put on my
pompous teachers speaking voice and attempt to paraphrase what he said many
years ago.  (That "pompous" part is really meant with affection.  He was
truly one of the best art teachers I ever had.  But he was also a pompous
a-hole.)

"
It is very important for you to know how you will be graded in this class if
you choose to "break the rules".  If you choose to change a technique I
taught you, or you decide to use a different technique, then I will expect
you to show me all of the following:

1.  That you can execute the technique I originally taught you flawlessly.
Inability to use a particular technique is not an acceptable reason for
doing something different.  I expect you to learn the "correct" or
"accepted" way to do things.  You NEED these skills to be a COMPLETE ARTIST.

2.  You must demonstrate that you had a reason for doing it different.  You
must be able to tell me where you are going and why.  Doing something simply
to be different is never "art".  Otherwise, pissing in your kitchen would be
considered art just because people do not do it.  It is NOT art.  It is
simply pissing in your kitchen if you do not know WHY and WHERE it may take
you.

3.  You must demonstrate some way to measure if your new way of doing things
"worked".  I do not care if the experiment failed.  Failure is a potential
in all experiments.  But you MUST have a way of knowing whether you failed
or succeeded.  Without knowing this it is impossible to know where to go
next.

If you can prove all of these points to my satisfaction, you will
automatically receive an "A" on the project.  If you can not then you will
receive an "F".  There will be no middle ground when you choose to "break
the rules" about what I am teaching you.  If you are absolutely sure about
these points then experimenting with new techniques and ideas is a sure way
to get a perfect grade in this class.  If you are not sure about these
points then it is the quickest way to be out of here on your ass.
"

Harsh, but I think it is one of the most important points I ever learned
about art.  In stained glass, I feel it is important to know how to use both
a cut out pattern AND a light table AND freehand cutting.  It is important
to be able to use BOTH lead came and copper foil correctly.  You should keep
practising enough so you can cut without the need to grind, and then choose
to grind when it is appropriate.  This is the only way you can use the
technique that is best for what you are doing and where you are going with
your art.

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 19:49:47 1999
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X-Path: xtra.co.nz!TMacnicol
From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Gotta question!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:55:11 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.15511.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.95837.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Gloria,

I have tiled the floor of my bathroom and shower including a splash board as
such around the shower.  Because tiles are waterproof but grout isn't (dont rely
on silicone additives in the grout) your choice of substrate must either be of a
nature not to move or swell when wet or it must be sealed completely so not to
allow themoisture to get through.  In New Zealand we have a product called
Hardies Compressed Sheet. (I realise you wont have that in the US)  It is a
fibre cement board that is available is a range of thicknesses,  It does not rot
or swell, however it does allow moisture to pass through it.  The second option
is to seal it well with a rubber paint.  Several coats are applied in
alternating directions and corners are reinforce with tape then painted over.  I
believe this is the best method.  We have have no signs of movement, swelling or
even cracks in the grout and it has been well over a year.

Good luck.

     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 20:16:50 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:59:03 +1200
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I am aware that "Connected Lines" software has that capability.

     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 20:27:09 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:19:12 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug18.124019.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

J. Dahlin wrote:
> 
> I took a class recently on making kaleidoscopes and the shop owner said
> that Front Surface Glass is almost impossible to cut.  Is this true?
> Any hints?
> 
> He also mentioned that same evening that twisting wire was very hard to
> do and you could never get it even.  I would hate to tell him how many
> pounds of wire we have twisted with my husband's cordless screw driver.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it's much harder then normal glass. you'll need the cutter with the
yellow ring (fletcher), to cut it. otherwise it's very difficult. just
be sure to cut it on the silver side, the unprotected side.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 18 20:51:25 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:34:41 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.23441.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.42935.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Acad is very expensive, and complex,  in New Zealand it is about $7,000 for the
basic version.  With a features list longer that one could image.  After almost
a year working with it (6 moths full time) I feel that I am only scratching the
surface.

However other cad programs have all the main points that could be used in sg
work without the price tag.  Autocad Lt is a cheaper verison.  I like to idea of
using a custom designed software package that includes glass jpgs, bevels (even
though our suppliers import only a fraction of what you "chosen"  lot are
acustomed too ;-) ) importing scanned images, all within a basic format,  But I
have Acad already and like I said I am getting used to it's good points.

I did find one program that has 3-d capabilities. Glass Magic.  It has a  very
limited demo to download. URL http://users.megasoftnet.com/~mglass   I e-mailed
Micro Glass about it and Dick Reardon mailed back and said if I bought 10 or
more copies I could get them for $16 US each (maybe he saw an opening in New
Zealand?) but when I enquired at Delphi they were charing US$136.95! that's a
big difference.

Is anyone using that program?

--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 00:44:42 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: steve@villagesoftsmith.com, glass@bungi.com, toby@northlights.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: The E-Tour, Special-edition pictures
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 03:04:56 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.7456.0>
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Dear Steve, et al,
Have just had a look at YOUR version of the E-Tour posted at 
http://www.villagesoftsmith.com/etour.

Wonderful collection of photos! Wonderful job! And Thank You! I hope you can 
keep them up until I return to UK.
How come that in almost all of them I - The Viking - look half cut (in 
English parlance = half pi***d out of my head....). I'm sure that the BUCKETS 
of Margaritas that Nadine served us with weren't THAT strong...???
At least Peggy will see with her OWN eyes that I kept my promise....    ;->
Oh, I also got a georgeous e-mail from "Babe" the snow-white standard poodle.

Back at the Ranch in Pennsylvania, I have spent an enjoyable day in repairing 
garden chairs and toilet seats.....  (Jenny... Come back....all is 
forgiven.... I have broken my glasses....again...)

See you all for Breakfast at Tiffany's on 28th 
Tomorrow I'm off to see Christie Wood... tra-la;
Friday... PJ Friend.... tra-la
Saturday,  Hilary Bobker has decided to take her revenge on me  (I believe 
she has padlocked her bathroom!!) ...gulp...!
Sunday,  New York to meet a friend arriving from UK
Tuesday, getting soaking wet under Niagara Falls....
It's a hard Life!!
Take care everybody!!   SEE YOU ON 28TH AT W-C!
Elisabeth 'n absent Toby in UK (currently in Pennsylvania, USA)
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 01:07:49 1999
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--------------64D9B385EA0A871D2ED901AB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I did find one program that has 3-d capabilities. Glass Magic.  It has a  very
> limited demo to download. URL http://users.megasoftnet.com/~mglass   I e-mailed
> Micro Glass about it and Dick Reardon mailed back and said if I bought 10 or
> more copies I could get them for $16 US each (maybe he saw an opening in New
> Zealand?) but when I enquired at Delphi they were charing US$136.95! that's a
> big difference.
>
May as well try and find some others.. Layla

If anyone else is interested let me know....

     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-



--------------64D9B385EA0A871D2ED901AB
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE><I>I did find one program that has 3-d capabilities. Glass Magic.&nbsp; It has a&nbsp; very
limited demo to download. URL <A HREF="http://users.megasoftnet.com/~mglass">http://users.megasoftnet.com/~mglass</A>&nbsp;&nbsp; I e-mailed
Micro Glass about it and Dick Reardon mailed back and said if I bought 10 or
more copies I could get them for $16 US each (maybe he saw an opening in New
Zealand?) but when I enquired at Delphi they were charing US$136.95! that's a
big difference.</I></PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P>May as well try and find some others.. Layla
<P>If anyone else is interested let me know....
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Tina Booth-
<BR>-Knowledge is true opinion-
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Plato-
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------64D9B385EA0A871D2ED901AB--

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 01:34:42 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: New E-Tour Photos Are Up!!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 00:21:43 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug18.172143.0>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk

Hello All,

I have uploaded all of the great photos that Steve worked so hard to get
on the net!

http://members.xoom.com/GlassArt1/photos.htm

Because I haven't been receiving bungi mail as of late I've missed so
many good posts about the tour. So Steve thanks for personally emailing
me with the new photo info!! And you did such a good job I didn't change
any photos at all. They were perfect, funny, entertaining, cute and just
wonderful!!

Thank you!!

Pam



--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 05:00:59 1999
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From: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
To: "Susan C. Reitmann" <oddjob@scc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Instructions for Sprinkler
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:32:54 -0400
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Please add me to the list! (Although, with all the people who've asked, I
don't think it would be a bad idea for you to go ahead and post the
instructions to the whole group...JMHO)

....Bethanie....

At 10:32 AM -0400 8/18/99, Susan C. Reitmann wrote:
>For all of you that inquired about the instructions, etc. I am working on
>them and will get them out to you (off list). It may take me a day or
>two.hang in there.
>Sue Reitmann
>
>----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 06:14:15 1999
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In a message dated 8/18/99 5:57:05 PM, alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

>there are no stupid 
>questions (or comments); there are only stupid answers.

Or as one of my profs used to say, "The only stupid question is the one you 
didn't ask."


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 07:25:58 1999
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Subject: Re: Instructions for Sprinkler
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Sue...

I, too, would love to get the instructions for the Sprinkler.... thanks!

Joan


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Subject: Re: Instructions for Sprinkler
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Please add me to the list! (Although, with all the people who've asked, I
don't think it would be a bad idea for you to go ahead and post the
instructions to the whole group...JMHO)

.....Bethanie....

At 10:32 AM -0400 8/18/99, Susan C. Reitmann wrote:
>For all of you that inquired about the instructions, etc. I am working on
>them and will get them out to you (off list). It may take me a day or
>two.hang in there.
>Sue Reitmann
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 07:54:35 1999
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From: "Michele Spruill" <mrsdesigns@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 06:39:47 PDT
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Maybe I was just lucky, but I cut front surface glass with my toyo from the 
protected side and it cut just fine...
Michele
>From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
>To: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
>Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
>Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:19:12 -0400
>
>J. Dahlin wrote:
> >
> > I took a class recently on making kaleidoscopes and the shop owner said
> > that Front Surface Glass is almost impossible to cut.  Is this true?
> > Any hints?
> >
> > He also mentioned that same evening that twisting wire was very hard to
> > do and you could never get it even.  I would hate to tell him how many
> > pounds of wire we have twisted with my husband's cordless screw driver.
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>it's much harder then normal glass. you'll need the cutter with the
>yellow ring (fletcher), to cut it. otherwise it's very difficult. just
>be sure to cut it on the silver side, the unprotected side.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
>Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
>too and A Look at Sky City
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 10:20:35 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Fw: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:57:07 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.4577.0>
Precedence: bulk

> > >
> > >it's much harder then normal glass. you'll need the cutter with the
> > >yellow ring (fletcher), to cut it. > >
> > >---Mike Savad
>
>
 I was recently told just the opposite as Mike--my stained glass retailer
told me I needed a Toyo to cut it and that a Fletcher wouldn't work at
all... Has anyone had any luck with a Fletcher?

 Shari (who owns a Fletcher and would love to not have to buy a Toyo just to
cut the rare front surface mirror piece...)




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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 10:45:19 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: update re: ELISABETH'S SEATTLE WORKSHOP
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 09:09:27 -0700
Message-ID: <199908191609.JAA15146@mimas.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Talked to Northwest Art Glass this morning to make sure they're ready for
the workshop on September 18 and 19th.

Here's the scoop...do NOT try and email them, their system is just being set
up and they're getting ready for a huge open house this weekend.

Call Brad at 1-800-888-9444 or locally 861-9600 to register, or send him a
fax at 425-861-9300.  He's asked we do this the old fashioned way.  

See y'all there




Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 12:39:46 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:54:40 -0400
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>Maybe I was just lucky, but I cut front surface glass with my toyo from the 
>protected side and it cut just fine...
>Michele

I've never had a problem either, didn't know it was supposed to be
difficult!  
I do check that the wheel scores cleanly and does not skip  (I run it on
old mirror first) and am especially careful to hold it absolutely upright.
As for brand loyalty, I think I've used both...maybe the size of the wheel
makes a difference, though.
Dee
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: shigbee@mtcon.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Fw: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 13:53:49 EDT
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Don't know if I ever mentioned...a front surface mirror can be made as 
dichroic..has a hard front surface...but I don't know if they are of any use 
to anybody...used commercially for color reticles and (as clear) for 
telescope mirrors...

Jack
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 12:52:06 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 10:50:58 -0700
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
>=20
> >>The
> materials have to have the right transparency and color depth starting
> from the glass files from photos/scans of actual sg as well as the
> lighting being properly placed for rendering.  This shouldn't be too
> hard though it is time consuming to setup your library.  I started doin=
g
> a little of this, but decided it wasn't worth my time.  <<
>=20
> American Bevel Designer ll (about $175.00, free demo at
> http://americanbevel.com ) is a CAD program designed for stained glass.=
 Sold
> as a separate disk for $5.00 is a glass library for both Spectrum and
> Kokomo. This was current when published about a year ago. It does a fai=
r job
> of showing glass texture and whispy glass.
>=20
> I suspect the disk would work with other programs but have not tried th=
at.
>=20
> Bob


Hi Bob,

Downloaded that (demo version of American Bevel Designer ll) this
morning, installed and tried it out briefly.  Will look at it a little
more next week maybe.  Wasn't impressed.  Will bet cash money the prog
was written with Delphi or BCB.  They prolly used MS Direct Draw only
and apparently have their own file format and mostly used std calls to
the various Windows API's.  I'll bet my life that the prog was not done
by a CAD person ... just a std programmer probably directed by a SG
person with little background in computers/CAD.  Looks neat at first
glance, but probably mostly useless IMO ... except for maybe certain
types of bevels maybe.  Certainly not worth the askin' price of $175.=20
Not impressive to me in any case ... but I'm what one calls a difficult
customer, very hard to please, since I know a little bit (not much but
enough) ... just to mention that my skeptometer starts twittering with
picovolts and pegs out with nanovolts <G>.  Perhaps I am too harsh
(which I have a tendency to be) and I'll look it over again just in
case.

Spectrum sells a CD for around 5 to 10 bucks now with all their pics
(mostly jpeg's and tiff's as I recall).  Might be nice to have Kokomo
too.  I also captured all of the Yougie and Uroboros and other files
myself ... took a bit of time too ... would be faster now that I have a
HS connection, but dats life, its done now.

I'll look over the other CAD progs that have been mentioned next week
also.  Actually, I have AutoCAD LT and its good and more affordable than
full blown ACAD.

Gotta scoot ... I have a lotta stuff to finish up ... takin' my boy on
his first real fishing trip starting today ... I can see him practicing
his castin' through the window as I write this, I guess he's lookin'
forward to it <smile> ... unfortunately we havta drag de wimmin along
too.  Fortunately they don't get up till 9 or 10 anyway and we'll be
done with the morning fishin' by then anyway so it will prolly all work
out for the best.

--=20
HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:27:21 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.102721.0>
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Message text written by "Shari"
>>
 I was recently told just the opposite as Mike--my stained glass retailer=

told me I needed a Toyo to cut it and that a Fletcher wouldn't work at
all... Has anyone had any luck with a Fletcher?
<

The cutter manufacturers make a lot of money selling
specialized glass cutters.  I use one glass cutter to
cut all my glass... don't seem to have any particular
problems even though it's evident that some glass
is harder to cut than other glass.... =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 13:46:17 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Yegnim@aol.com" <Yegnim@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: The E-Tour, Special-edition pictures
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:27:04 -0400
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Elisabeth thanks for touching base
with us!  Now be sure to tip those
glasses before you get to my house,
dear, because there'll be no drinking
at this altitude!  I expect to get some
work out of you and knocked off your
feet with one beer is not going to do
me any good! LOL.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 13:53:56 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Be Free (But Know Where You Are Going)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 14:26:52 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.102652.0>
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Marvelous, Tim!  May I use it and give credit to
your teacher?  In closing, I would add that the
reason the fine arts are such a fiasco these
days is because too few know the rules =

intimately before they go about breaking them.
What we end up with is very bad art....

Message text written by "Tim Atwood"

It is very important for you to know how you will be graded in this class=

if
you choose to "break the rules".  If you choose to change a technique I
taught you, or you decide to use a different technique, then I will expec=
t
you to show me all of the following:

1.  That you can execute the technique I originally taught you flawlessly=

From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 13:59:26 1999
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From: <bcnl@sprynet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Gotta question
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 15:37:49 -0400
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There is a pretty neat looking back splash on the web at www.stainedartglass.com(Gilbertson's Stained Glass) that you might want to check out. I'm fairly new to stained glass, so I hate to give advice ,but I would think because of the moisture you would want to go with a cement board which is available at most Home Depot type stores....Just a thought!-Cindy
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 14:41:57 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fw: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:22:39 -0400
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Shari wrote:
> 
> > > >
> > > >it's much harder then normal glass. you'll need the cutter with the
> > > >yellow ring (fletcher), to cut it. > >
> > > >---Mike Savad
> >
> >
>  I was recently told just the opposite as Mike--my stained glass retailer
> told me I needed a Toyo to cut it and that a Fletcher wouldn't work at
> all... Has anyone had any luck with a Fletcher?
> 
>  Shari (who owns a Fletcher and would love to not have to buy a Toyo just to
> cut the rare front surface mirror piece...)
> 
> ----
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it's not the brandname that's important. it's the angle of the wheel
used. it needs a sharp angle to scope the stuff. toyo probably has
something simaler. i think the angle is 134 degrees, but i'm probably
wrong. i've been able to use a normal cutter on the stuff with success.
but it does'nt score, no sound. it's one of those silent types of glass. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 15:14:11 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fw: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:29:17 -0400
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ATFSI@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Don't know if I ever mentioned...a front surface mirror can be made as
> dichroic..has a hard front surface...but I don't know if they are of any use
> to anybody...used commercially for color reticles and (as clear) for
> telescope mirrors...
> 
> Jack
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i think i have tiny scraps of that stuff. thin, nearly impossible to
cut. my store called it kaliedoscope dichro. it's nice, not very big,
but it's all the dichro i currently have...

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 15:37:58 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: New on list
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--------------39F454EBE90BE05A18C84143
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Christie A. Wood wrote:

> Where can we find photos of your work?

I have not posted any yet,  Infact now that I think about it I don't think
I've even taken photos of any!!!  I had better get my act together and take
some...


> My husband and I
> had a wonderful time and despirately want to move back permanately!
> So we are saving up for retirement...then I'll open a stained glass
> business
> there in Christchurch.
>

I have been to Christchurch a couple of times.  The last was about two years
ago for a  "Trade Aid" conference, I was a volunteer with them at the time,
now I have a 5 month old daughter and no time!  Well actually.. some time...
for sg.


     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


--------------39F454EBE90BE05A18C84143
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML>
Christie A. Wood wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>Where can we find photos of your work?</BLOCKQUOTE>
I have not posted any yet,&nbsp; Infact now that I think about it I don't
think I've even taken photos of any!!!&nbsp; I had better get my act together
and take some...
<BR>&nbsp;
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>My husband and I
had a wonderful time and despirately want to move back permanately!
So we are saving up for retirement...then I'll open a stained glass
business
there in Christchurch.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P><BR>I have been to Christchurch a couple of times.&nbsp; The last was
about two years ago for a&nbsp; "Trade Aid" conference, I was a volunteer
with them at the time, now I have a 5 month old daughter and no time!&nbsp;
Well actually.. some time... for sg.
<BR>&nbsp;
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Tina Booth-
<BR>-Knowledge is true opinion-
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Plato-
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------39F454EBE90BE05A18C84143--

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 16:10:49 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 17:13:34 +0000
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> ... didn't know it was supposed to be
> difficult!  I do check that the wheel scores cleanly and does not
> skip  (I run it on old mirror first) and am especially careful to
> hold it absolutely upright.

Whatever works ... but it's true that if you don't know something's 
"impossible," it's more likely you'll be able to do it. <grin> 
So-called teachers who teach that something can't be done have lost 
track of what teaching's about, by my lights.

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 16:23:44 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: E-Tour visits North Wales, PA
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:23:16 -0400
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The great Elisabeth spent a very pleasant afternoon with
Sparks, my mother, my dad and me today (Wednesday)
up at my studio.  She taught me some very much-valued
tips on lead cutting (hey!  now I really know what lead dykes
are!) and I taught her the fine points of stained glass mosaic
birdbaths.  Would you believe that the lead goddess
actually worked with my mom on making a mosaic birdbath?
I had the great E working with my favorite GE Silicone II
and making little goldfish for the birdbath.  What fun.

She's due at Glass Visions next weekend.  Watch out!
She's been looking through all my wholesale/retail stained
glass suppliers catalogs and taking copius notes.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 16:57:40 1999
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From: "Robt. O'Marah" <romarah@northnet.org>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: re: gotta question
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:40:26 -0500
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	I would like to say that if you are putting tile up where you could
accidentally push hard against it, like on the sides of a tub. Then you
should use cement board under it. Now if you can't afford it  3/4" plywood
would probably do also.  Never use pressed board near the kitchen or
bathroom.  If you are putting the tile like we did up over the top of the
fiberglass tub and down the sides and then into the walls of the bathroom.
We just used 3/4" plywood under them and it has worked out great.  On the
back of the sink you usually don't put any pressure so you can just use
plywood there.  You probably could just stick them on sheet rock and never
have a problem also. 
	As for sealing the grout.  I never seal my grout.  I don't like the color
change that you get...it turns darker.  I have never had a problem by not
sealing the grout.  I hope that this helps.


Sue  
romarah@northnet.org
 "It's so much easier to grow older than wiser."
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 17:42:29 1999
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From: MJTFOX@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: beadmaking
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:01:34 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.23134.0>
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Perhaps some of the beadmakers would have suggestions for me. I will be 
taking a beadmaking class soon. The supply list says any stainless steel or 
utensiles with textures( example strainer) . I have a grater so far. My 
strainer is large and I wonder if size will make a difference. 
A long time lurker, 
Marion   Hamilton, OH
You need to know the rules before you can have any fun breaking them!
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 18:07:55 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 19:35:31 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.153531.0>
References: <<199908192112.RAA02462@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Hey! Am I the only one who has no idea what "front surface glass" is??
Would someone please enlighten me?
Thanks!!
mary
----- Original Message -----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass


> > ... didn't know it was supposed to be
> > difficult!  I do check that the wheel scores cleanly and does not
> > skip  (I run it on old mirror first) and am especially careful to
> > hold it absolutely upright.
>
> Whatever works ... but it's true that if you don't know something's
> "impossible," it's more likely you'll be able to do it. <grin>
> So-called teachers who teach that something can't be done have lost
> track of what teaching's about, by my lights.
>
> Albert
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 18:40:29 1999
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From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: re:  Calling all super sleuths
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:06:30 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.11630.0>
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A quick thank you to all who responded about the Blue-M company and
their kiln that we have.  I contacted them by e-mail, and have had two
very positive calls from two individuals at their company.  Excellent
response from Blue-M!  Wish all companies currently responded that
quickly and with that positive attitude about trying to find
information on a kiln that must be 30 or more years old!  I now have a
copy of an instruction manual, verbal instructions, and two kiln
shelves on the way.  Couldn't ask for more!

Thank you,  
Barbara Elmore
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 19:08:55 1999
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From: "Kathy Mather" <katmath@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: cutting mirror glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 18:21:28 PDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.12128.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi folks,
  Since your on the subject, I know that when you cut mirror that you have 
to seal it after, but I don't know with what. Could someone tell me what to 
use? Thanks for you help.
                                       Kathy


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 19:44:29 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:59:47 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.175947.0>
References: <<1999Aug19.153531.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Mary wrote:
> 
> Hey! Am I the only one who has no idea what "front surface glass" is??
> Would someone please enlighten me?
> Thanks!!
> mary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
> To: <glass@bungi.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 1:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
> 
> > > ... didn't know it was supposed to be
> > > difficult!  I do check that the wheel scores cleanly and does not
> > > skip  (I run it on old mirror first) and am especially careful to
> > > hold it absolutely upright.
> >
> > Whatever works ... but it's true that if you don't know something's
> > "impossible," it's more likely you'll be able to do it. <grin>
> > So-called teachers who teach that something can't be done have lost
> > track of what teaching's about, by my lights.
> >
> > Albert
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
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front surface mirror (sometimes called aluminized mirror), is the mirror
used in kaliedoscopes. or anything else requiring a clear reflection. 

in normal mirror. the glass reflects twice, one on the surface one
through the glass. plus since the light has to travel through the glass,
the image becomes darker, and more blurred. the thickness of the mirror
is repeated along with everything else. it's dark and blurry. 

front surface mirror, puts the reflectivness on the top. the light
does'nt have to travel very far, it bounces right off the surface. it
gives a very crisp and clear image. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 20:07:02 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Kathy Mather <katmath@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: cutting mirror glass
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:39:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.183916.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.12128.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Kathy Mather wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
>   Since your on the subject, I know that when you cut mirror that you have
> to seal it after, but I don't know with what. Could someone tell me what to
> use? Thanks for you help.
>                                        Kathy
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i use mirror spray. though it's primarily a clear laquer. any clear
polyurethane should work. nail polish (if you have the patience), can be
applied to the edges and back about a 1/2" is safe. 

if you can, try not grind the edges, each chip is a potential hazard.
they make mirror flux, but it's gooey, and smokey. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 20:20:33 1999
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From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: 3 D Tree
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:39:30 -0400
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Hi,
Does anyone know where I can find a pattern for a 3-D Christmas Tree.
I have  run searches on the net with no luck.
Any help would be really appreciated.
I would like to make it for a local Festival of Trees. 
TIA
Goldpaws
Sorry for the duplication for any that are on both lists
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 20:33:49 1999
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X-Path: earthlink.net!glassgiraffe
From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: "Dan O'Mara" <dan@stealthtech.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Peter Crisp
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:46:06 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.18466.0>
References: <<1999Jul14.71813.0>>
Precedence: bulk

There is a Peter Crisp in or around Penland NC.  He has or had a business
making some nice ornaments and other glass items for the wholesale trade.
His partner was John Littlton (son of Harvey) so a call to Tom Littleton
(brother) at Spruce Pine Batch Co (in Spruce Pine NC, +1 (828) 765-9876.  He
can pass along a message to John and possibly get a message to Peter.
NOW....I have No idea if this is the guy you are looking for!  He was from
the NC area as far as I know.....not even a trace of the accent from down
there.

Good Luck!

Jeff
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dan O'Mara [mailto:dan@stealthtech.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 5:18 PM
>> To: glass@bungi.com
>> Subject: Peter Crisp
>>
>>
>> I am trying to locate Peter Crisp, a glass artist in Yass, NSW,
>> Australia.
>>
>> Can anyone make any suggestion and/or help me locate a way to get in
>> touch with him directly?
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> dan@stealthtech.com
>>
>> ----
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From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: "Susan Perchelli" <S-Perchelli@webtv.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Flux brushes big profit maker for glass retailers   Wow!!!
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:45:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.184557.0>
References: <<1999Jul2.141617.0>>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Sue,
You are a jem!
After more than six years as a glass retailer I am letting it go.  Just not
enough profit!  You want profit?  Go down and audit your local McDonalds!
Yet do you EVER hear of complaints?  You can tel the listies that running a
successful glass store REQUIRES that you make your profit where you can find
it-while keeping your store competitive!  Hard to do, you bet.
Here is one more....  See if the listies think that $20,000 PROFIT on a new
Ford Expedition is too much?  That is a real (and discusting!) figure!  That
is what FORD makes, NOT including the dealer!

Jeff
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Susan Perchelli [mailto:S-Perchelli@webtv.net]
  Sent: Saturday, July 03, 1999 12:16 AM
  To: Linda Jo Letscher
  Subject: Re: Flux brushes big profit maker for glass retailers Wow!!!


  Frederico suggested I keep my hands where he could see them...I didn't
listen. Now, me and Lefty are sharing the same prosthetic device.

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D350133418-19081999>Sue,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D350133418-19081999>You=20
are a jem!&nbsp; </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D350133418-19081999>After=20
more than six years as a glass retailer I am letting it go.&nbsp; Just =
not=20
enough profit!&nbsp; You want profit?&nbsp; Go down and audit your local =

McDonalds!&nbsp; Yet do you EVER hear of complaints?&nbsp; You can tel =
the=20
listies that running a successful glass store REQUIRES that you make =
your profit=20
where you can find it-while keeping your store competitive!&nbsp; Hard =
to do,=20
you bet.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D350133418-19081999>Here=20
is one more....&nbsp; See if the listies think that $20,000 PROFIT on a =
new Ford=20
Expedition is too much?&nbsp; That is a real (and discusting!) =
figure!&nbsp;=20
That is what FORD makes, NOT including the dealer!</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D350133418-19081999></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#0000ff face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D350133418-19081999>Jeff</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Susan Perchelli=20
  [mailto:S-Perchelli@webtv.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, July 03, 1999 =
12:16=20
  AM<BR><B>To:</B> Linda Jo Letscher<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Flux brushes =
big=20
  profit maker for glass retailers =
Wow!!!<BR><BR></DIV></FONT><I>Frederico=20
  suggested I keep my hands where he could see them...I didn't listen. =
Now, me=20
  and Lefty are sharing the same prosthetic device.</I>=20
</BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 20:45:56 1999
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X-Path: earthlink.net!glassgiraffe
From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Be Free (But Know Where You Are Going)
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:45:51 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.184551.0>
References: <<1999Aug18.113036.0>>
Precedence: bulk

been off the board for a while Tim....but this is the best writing I have
seen in years on the subject of "what is art".  It is something that I tell
all of my students AT LEAST 10 times in a class.  " If you don't know the
best road to the dance how will you know if an alternate road works as goood
or better?
Great job!


Jeff Eckes

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tim Atwood [mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca]
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 9:31 PM
>> To: Bungi
>> Subject: Be Free (But Know Where You Are Going)
>>
>>
>> My original post "Be Free!" neglected an important part of being
>> free.  As a
>> responsible artist/artisan, I feel I must add something here about what I
>> consider to be a truly "professional" attitude about creating art.
>>
>> I also refuse to put "NG" on the title to this.  Although it is much more
>> general than just stained glass, it is also central to the art of stained
>> glass.  I feel it is central to many of the past discussions about lead
>> versus foil, grinding versus not, patterns versus freehand, new materials
>> versus old, and any of the other discussions about traditional techniques
>> versus new ones.
>>
>> One of my art teachers in University said it best.  So I will
>> now put on my
>> pompous teachers speaking voice and attempt to paraphrase what
>> he said many
>> years ago.  (That "pompous" part is really meant with affection.  He was
>> truly one of the best art teachers I ever had.  But he was also a pompous
>> a-hole.)
>>
>> "
>> It is very important for you to know how you will be graded in
>> this class if
>> you choose to "break the rules".  If you choose to change a technique I
>> taught you, or you decide to use a different technique, then I
>> will expect
>> you to show me all of the following:
>>
>> 1.  That you can execute the technique I originally taught you
>> flawlessly.
>> Inability to use a particular technique is not an acceptable reason for
>> doing something different.  I expect you to learn the "correct" or
>> "accepted" way to do things.  You NEED these skills to be a
>> COMPLETE ARTIST.
>>
>> 2.  You must demonstrate that you had a reason for doing it
>> different.  You
>> must be able to tell me where you are going and why.  Doing
>> something simply
>> to be different is never "art".  Otherwise, pissing in your
>> kitchen would be
>> considered art just because people do not do it.  It is NOT art.  It is
>> simply pissing in your kitchen if you do not know WHY and WHERE
>> it may take
>> you.
>>
>> 3.  You must demonstrate some way to measure if your new way of
>> doing things
>> "worked".  I do not care if the experiment failed.  Failure is a
>> potential
>> in all experiments.  But you MUST have a way of knowing whether
>> you failed
>> or succeeded.  Without knowing this it is impossible to know where to go
>> next.
>>
>> If you can prove all of these points to my satisfaction, you will
>> automatically receive an "A" on the project.  If you can not
>> then you will
>> receive an "F".  There will be no middle ground when you choose to "break
>> the rules" about what I am teaching you.  If you are absolutely
>> sure about
>> these points then experimenting with new techniques and ideas is
>> a sure way
>> to get a perfect grade in this class.  If you are not sure about these
>> points then it is the quickest way to be out of here on your ass.
>> "
>>
>> Harsh, but I think it is one of the most important points I ever learned
>> about art.  In stained glass, I feel it is important to know how
>> to use both
>> a cut out pattern AND a light table AND freehand cutting.  It is
>> important
>> to be able to use BOTH lead came and copper foil correctly.  You
>> should keep
>> practising enough so you can cut without the need to grind, and
>> then choose
>> to grind when it is appropriate.  This is the only way you can use the
>> technique that is best for what you are doing and where you are
>> going with
>> your art.
>>
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>

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From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Educational Question
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:46:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.184626.0>
References: <<199908052300.TAA03675@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Albert,

Funny how things happen BUT....  I may have the opportunity in the near
future to get a degreed program (associate) going in NC.  No kidding!  We
are talking with the college now and have taken on their substantial
continuing ED program this fall to prove ourselves.
Do you think that a program like that will fly?  Would love to get your
"official" opinion for the college if I could as well.  Interested?

Contact me when you can,

Jeff Eckes

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Albert Lewis [mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 3:02 PM
>> To: glass@bungi.com
>> Subject: Re: Educational Question
>>
>>
>>
>> > Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
>> > program versus a craft/vocational school?
>>
>> Louisiana State University used to have such a program, but when the
>> professor retired, so did the program, alas. Other than that? Not as
>> far as I know. US-wise, that is.  There are several degree programs
>> in Europe.
>>
>> Albert
>> ----
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>>

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 21:03:41 1999
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From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Blown glass ornaments
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 22:46:30 -0400
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Here is one way to make ornaments on the torch, hope it helps.... (email =
me
for file with photos)





Christmas in July


by Jeff Eckes




Coming up with fresh ideas for a column like this on a regular basis is
tough sometimes.  The problem is, I need to hear from more of you!  What =
do
you want to know about?  Is it something unusual and fairly easy to learn
like the Christmas ornament in this months installment?  Or would you rat=
her
hear more about other beadmakers and some of their techniques?  Do you en=
joy
some of the stuff on safety and equipment or should I save my breath?
Sooo...(in the voice of Billy Crystal)..let me know...drop me a line...se=
nd
me an e-mail even.


















Reprinted from
Glass Patterns Quarterly
Spring/Summer, 1998
While most folks about this time of year are enjoying the end of spring a=
nd
thinking about the beginning of summer, I start thinking about how many
Holiday ornaments I'm going to be able to blow this year.  I often make t=
hem
as demos at art shows, as it delights young and old alike and doesn't
require kiln annealing.  Most of mine usually go to family (our entire
family collects our glass, doesn't yours?) and friends with a very few be=
ing
sold in our store It's really something that I do more for fun than anyth=
ing
else.  These are that, they're also easy to do and fast.
Really.
I make this ornament with 90.0 fusible-compatible glasses.  This includes=
 a
base of clear, provided by the capillary tubing.  A pallette of colors fr=
om
manufacturers like  Uroboros, Optil Arc,  Bullseye and Kugler in  every
form, from  powders and frits to bars,  rods and sheet, and  sometimes
little extras  like dichroic and mica  dust (pixie dust), not to  mention
all of the other strange and wonderful things that you can use
experimentally.  What I tell my students is that they are only limited by
their imagination and what will survive in the glass.  Try it...you never
know!
This project can be made on either an oxy/propane torch or a MAP  gas tor=
ch.
If using the latter be sure to take your time, the flame is much cooler a=
nd
most attempts to speed things up usually end poorly.
I begin with a large capillary tube in a 90.0 glass that ranges in size f=
rom
7mm to 10mm outside diameter with a wall thickness of at least 2mm.  This
tubing is hard to find, but we are working to change that in the future. =
 I
cut this into 12" to 16" sections and fire polish one end, (fig.1) the en=
d
that winds up in my mouth, of a half dozen or so tubes.   Some folks that=
 I
know have used a "heavy wall" tubing (available up to 1.5mm wall thicknes=
s)
and this works, but I find that the extra wall thickness in the capillary
tubing is one of the things that make this ornament so easy to do.  Now m=
elt
the unpolished end of the tube until you have a nice little


gather on the end of the tube (fig.2) about the size of a medium to large
grape.  Let this cool until it stops glowing  remembering to keep it turn=
ing
just like a marble or the hot glass will fall off of the tube.  Re-heat t=
he
gather until it has a uniform glow and pick up your powder (Fig.3) in a
fairly thick coat.   Remember, it is going to be blown out which means th=
at
colors will become less dense as they get larger.  Once you have the firs=
t
layer of powder you can then ad other colors of frit, powder, fractures o=
f
glass, stringer,  mica, precious metals and such.   Experiment with it, b=
ut
for your first one make it simple and just put a layer of mixed color fri=
t
on it. (Fig.4) Melt the frit into the gather, round out and let cool unti=
l
just solid.  Re-heat entire gather, concentrating on getting the entire
gather as evenly heated as possible and getting it evenly hot all the way
through to the center.  When you reach the point where it wants to  fall =
off
of the tube if you stop rotating  it, remove it from the flame and keep  =
it
turning and horizontal while you  bring it to your mouth to expand the
bubble.
At this point a definition of "blowing  glass" is in order.  When one
"blows"  glass one actually puffs it.   Sometimes you puff soft...sometim=
es
you puff hard, it really takes some practice to know when to do what, but
some general rules do apply:
        even heating is the key to a round bubble.
        when you first begin to puff will usually be when it is the harde=
st
        as you puff and the glass expands it gets thinner and it is very
easy to "blow out" your gather if you don't control how hard you puff
        Control is the name of the game.  The object is to reduce the air
pressure as you increase the size of the bubble.  If you pay close attent=
ion
you will discover that the hot bubble will actually "blow back" at you
through the tube from the hot expanding air, use this
        if you do get a "blowout" then just melt it down and try again!
Sometimes it is best to start a "seed bubble" first.  Blowing this small
bubble at the very tip of the tube increases the size of the gather only
about 10% (fig.5) but we use it to begin the expansion without actually
blowing the entire bubble.  When re-heated this "seed bubble" allows you =
to
heat the gather faster and more evenly for the second step which would be=
 to
expand the rest of the bubble.  Remember not to overheat the gather and i=
f
you do then let it cool a little before you begin to puff.  Also keep it
rotating in your mouth and keep it level if you want it to be round.  If =
you
let it droop it will tend to be oblong and if you tilt it up it will tend=
 to
be saucer shaped so keep it level.  I find that the easiest way to master
this skill is to err on the side of "too cool" rather than "too hot" when
reheating the gather in preparation to blow, if you have to reheat it a f=
ew
times so be it, at least you don't have to start again.  Blow out the bub=
ble
until it is expanded to the size that you want (fig.6), typically 1" to 3=
"
in diameter.  Start smaller then work up to larger sizes.
Once you have your bubble expanded (ok, so it is starting to look like a
Christmas ornament!) you will need to flame anneal it.  On an oxy/propane
torch all need to do is turn off the oxygen and turn up the propane flame=
 to
the point that it starts to break away from the torch.  Set the ornament =
in
the flame at the point where the blue color of the flame meets the orange
color, this is the annealing area of the flame. With the addition of a sm=
all
amount of oxygen, this kind of flame can also be used as a reduction flam=
e
to iridize gold and silver oxide based frits and powders.  On a map gas
torch you would move it up in the flame until it stopped glowing and rota=
te
it there.  Now the general rule of thumb for flame annealing is "twice as
long in the annealing flame as it spent in the creation flame" but  this =
is
a pretty thin object so a  little less time is usually ok.  I  tend to
anneal for 2-3 minutes  unless I spent more than 10  minutes making the
ornament  and then I use more.  This stage  of the process is tedious at
best  so if you want to use a kiln for  annealing, then by all means do  =
so.
When I am done flame annealing I stand the tube, with the ornament attach=
ed
to it, in a weighted coffee can and let it cool to room temperature so th=
at
I can remove it from the tube.  When it cools you can remove it with a
mosaic cutter (one more good reason to own a pair!), a saw or score it wi=
th
a carbide knife.  If you use the mosaic cutter, which I recommend, be sur=
e
to keep the "handle" side of the cutters facing the tube, not the ornamen=
t
when you use it.  Just put over a box of foam peanuts or shredded paper a=
nd
cut about 3/8" above the ornament (fig.7) on the tube, which is now ready
for you to make another ornament on!  I can get up to 6 or 7 ornaments ou=
t
of each tube, so the cost per ornament is rather low, as you can imagine.
Top it off with a standard ornament cap (available at your glass retailer=
)
and you have a wonderful gift item that is totally unique.  Go ahead, I d=
are
you to make two of these exactly alike!


Copyright  =A9 1998
Jeff Eckes and The Glass Giraffe=AE

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Albert Lewis [mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
>> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 12:04 PM
>> To: Debbie Tenhoff
>> Subject: Re: Blown glass ornaments
>>
>>
>>
>> > Can anyone give me a brief description on making blown glass
>> > ornaments using a blow torch? Names of suppliers? What basic tools
>> > are needed? Is there any good books on the subject?  Thank you in
>> > advance.
>>
>> I just finished updating http://www.cdvkiln.com/ ... the web site of
>> Centre DeVerre, an artist-run source for burners and torches. You can
>> ask Marty Daily anything about torch work ... he'll *tell you!
>>
>> Albert
>>
>> Albert Lewis
>> AllDesignCom.com | Design & Communications
>> __________________________________________
>> 54 Cherry Street      North Adams MA 01247
>> 413 663-7946             Fax: 413 663-7167
>>       http://www.alldesigncom.com/
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEEA94.ADB78EE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Here is one way to make ornaments on the torch, hope =
it=20
helps.... (<SPAN class=3D100105401-20081999>email me for =
f</SPAN>ile&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D100105401-20081999>with </SPAN>photos)<BR><BR></FONT></P>
<P><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
<P><FONT size=3D2>Christmas in July<BR><BR><BR>by Jeff=20
Eckes<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Coming up with fresh ideas for a column like =
this on a=20
regular basis is tough sometimes.&nbsp; The problem is, I need to hear =
from more=20
of you!&nbsp; What do you want to know about?&nbsp; Is it something =
unusual and=20
fairly easy to learn like the Christmas ornament in this months=20
installment?&nbsp; Or would you rather hear more about other beadmakers =
and some=20
of their techniques?&nbsp; Do you enjoy some of the stuff on safety and=20
equipment or should I save my breath?&nbsp; Sooo...(in the voice of =
Billy=20
Crystal)..let me know...drop me a line...send me an e-mail=20
even.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR><BR>Reprinted=20
from<BR>Glass Patterns Quarterly<BR>Spring/Summer, 1998<BR>While most =
folks=20
about this time of year are enjoying the end of spring and thinking =
about the=20
beginning of summer, I start thinking about how many Holiday ornaments =
I'm going=20
to be able to blow this year.&nbsp; I often make them as demos at art =
shows, as=20
it delights young and old alike and doesn't require kiln =
annealing.&nbsp; Most=20
of mine usually go to family (our entire family collects our glass, =
doesn't=20
yours?) and friends with a very few being sold in our store It's really=20
something that I do more for fun than anything else.&nbsp; These are =
that,=20
they're also easy to do and fast.&nbsp;<BR>Really.<BR>I make this =
ornament with=20
90.0 fusible-compatible glasses.&nbsp; This includes a base of clear, =
provided=20
by the capillary tubing.&nbsp; A pallette of colors from&nbsp; =
manufacturers=20
like&nbsp; Uroboros, Optil Arc,&nbsp; Bullseye and Kugler in&nbsp; every =
form,=20
from&nbsp; powders and frits to bars,&nbsp; rods and sheet, and&nbsp; =
sometimes=20
little extras&nbsp; like dichroic and mica&nbsp; dust (pixie dust), not =
to&nbsp;=20
mention all of the other strange and wonderful things that you can use=20
experimentally.&nbsp; What I tell my students is that they are only =
limited by=20
their imagination and what will survive in the glass.&nbsp; Try it...you =
never=20
know!<BR>This project can be made on either an oxy/propane torch or a =
MAP&nbsp;=20
gas torch.&nbsp; If using the latter be sure to take your time, the =
flame is=20
much cooler and most attempts to speed things up usually end =
poorly.<BR>I begin=20
with a large capillary tube in a 90.0 glass that ranges in size from 7mm =
to 10mm=20
outside diameter with a wall thickness of at least 2mm.&nbsp; This =
tubing is=20
hard to find, but we are working to change that in the future.&nbsp; I =
cut this=20
into 12" to 16" sections and fire polish one end, (fig.1) the end that =
winds up=20
in my mouth, of a half dozen or so tubes.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some folks that I =
know=20
have used a "heavy wall" tubing (available up to 1.5mm wall thickness) =
and this=20
works, but I find that the extra wall thickness in the capillary tubing =
is one=20
of the things that make this ornament so easy to do.&nbsp; Now melt the=20
unpolished end of the tube until you have a nice=20
little<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>gather=20
on the end of the tube (fig.2) about the size of a medium to large =
grape.&nbsp;=20
Let this cool until it stops glowing&nbsp; remembering to keep it =
turning just=20
like a marble or the hot glass will fall off of the tube.&nbsp; Re-heat =
the=20
gather until it has a uniform glow and pick up your powder (Fig.3) in a =
fairly=20
thick coat.&nbsp;&nbsp; Remember, it is going to be blown out which =
means that=20
colors will become less dense as they get larger.&nbsp; Once you have =
the first=20
layer of powder you can then ad other colors of frit, powder, fractures =
of=20
glass, stringer,&nbsp; mica, precious metals and such.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Experiment=20
with it, but for your first one make it simple and just put a layer of =
mixed=20
color frit on it. (Fig.4) Melt the frit into the gather, round out and =
let cool=20
until just solid.&nbsp; Re-heat entire gather, concentrating on getting =
the=20
entire gather as evenly heated as possible and getting it evenly hot all =
the way=20
through to the center.&nbsp; When you reach the point where it wants =
to&nbsp;=20
fall off of the tube if you stop rotating&nbsp; it, remove it from the =
flame and=20
keep&nbsp; it turning and horizontal while you&nbsp; bring it to your =
mouth to=20
expand the&nbsp; bubble.<BR>At this point a definition of "blowing&nbsp; =
glass"=20
is in order.&nbsp; When one "blows"&nbsp; glass one actually puffs=20
it.&nbsp;&nbsp; Sometimes you puff soft...sometimes&nbsp; you puff hard, =
it=20
really takes some practice to know when to do what, but some general =
rules do=20
apply:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; even heating is the =
key to=20
a round bubble.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when you =
first=20
begin to puff will usually be when it is the=20
hardest<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; as you puff and =
the glass=20
expands it gets thinner and it is very easy to "blow out" your gather if =
you=20
don't control how hard you =
puff<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Control is the name of the game.&nbsp; The object is to reduce the air =
pressure=20
as you increase the size of the bubble.&nbsp; If you pay close attention =
you=20
will discover that the hot bubble will actually "blow back" at you =
through the=20
tube from the hot expanding air, use=20
this<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; if you do get a =
"blowout"=20
then just melt it down and try again!<BR>Sometimes it is best to start a =
"seed=20
bubble" first.&nbsp; Blowing this small bubble at the very tip of the =
tube=20
increases the size of the gather only about 10% (fig.5) but we use it to =
begin=20
the expansion without actually blowing the entire bubble.&nbsp; When =
re-heated=20
this "seed bubble" allows you to heat the gather faster and more evenly =
for the=20
second step which would be to expand the rest of the bubble.&nbsp; =
Remember not=20
to overheat the gather and if you do then let it cool a little before =
you begin=20
to puff.&nbsp; Also keep it rotating in your mouth and keep it level if =
you want=20
it to be round.&nbsp; If you let it droop it will tend to be oblong and =
if you=20
tilt it up it will tend to be saucer shaped so keep it level.&nbsp; I =
find that=20
the easiest way to master this skill is to err on the side of "too cool" =
rather=20
than "too hot" when reheating the gather in preparation to blow, if you =
have to=20
reheat it a few times so be it, at least you don't have to start =
again.&nbsp;=20
Blow out the bubble until it is expanded to the size that you want =
(fig.6),=20
typically 1" to 3" in diameter.&nbsp; Start smaller then work up to =
larger=20
sizes.<BR>Once you have your bubble expanded (ok, so it is starting to =
look like=20
a Christmas ornament!) you will need to flame anneal it.&nbsp; On an =
oxy/propane=20
torch all need to do is turn off the oxygen and turn up the propane =
flame to the=20
point that it starts to break away from the torch.&nbsp; Set the =
ornament in the=20
flame at the point where the blue color of the flame meets the orange =
color,=20
this is the annealing area of the flame. With the addition of a small =
amount of=20
oxygen, this kind of flame can also be used as a reduction flame to =
iridize gold=20
and silver oxide based frits and powders.&nbsp; On a map gas torch you =
would=20
move it up in the flame until it stopped glowing and rotate it =
there.&nbsp; Now=20
the general rule of thumb for flame annealing is "twice as long in the =
annealing=20
flame as it spent in the creation flame" but&nbsp; this is a pretty thin =
object=20
so a&nbsp; little less time is usually ok.&nbsp; I&nbsp; tend to anneal =
for 2-3=20
minutes&nbsp; unless I spent more than 10&nbsp; minutes making the=20
ornament&nbsp; and then I use more.&nbsp; This stage&nbsp; of the =
process is=20
tedious at best&nbsp; so if you want to use a kiln for&nbsp; annealing, =
then by=20
all means do&nbsp; so.&nbsp; When I am done flame annealing I stand the =
tube,=20
with the ornament attached to it, in a weighted coffee can and let it =
cool to=20
room temperature so that I can remove it from the tube.&nbsp; When it =
cools you=20
can remove it with a mosaic cutter (one more good reason to own a =
pair!), a saw=20
or score it with a carbide knife.&nbsp; If you use the mosaic cutter, =
which I=20
recommend, be sure to keep the "handle" side of the cutters facing the =
tube, not=20
the ornament when you use it.&nbsp; Just put over a box of foam peanuts =
or=20
shredded paper and cut about 3/8" above the ornament (fig.7) on the =
tube, which=20
is now ready for you to make another ornament on!&nbsp; I can get up to =
6 or 7=20
ornaments out of each tube, so the cost per ornament is rather low, as =
you can=20
imagine.<BR>Top it off with a standard ornament cap (available at your =
glass=20
retailer) and you have a wonderful gift item that is totally =
unique.&nbsp; Go=20
ahead, I dare you to make two of these exactly =
alike!<BR><BR><BR>Copyright&nbsp;=20
=A9 1998<BR>Jeff Eckes and The Glass Giraffe=AE<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; =
-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt; From: Albert Lewis [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net"=20
target=3D_blank>mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net</A>]<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Sent:=20
Sunday, July 04, 1999 12:04 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: Debbie =
Tenhoff<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
Subject: Re: Blown glass=20
ornaments<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Can =
anyone give=20
me a brief description on making blown glass<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; ornaments =
using a=20
blow torch? Names of suppliers? What basic tools<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; are =
needed? Is=20
there any good books on the subject?&nbsp; Thank you in<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; =

advance.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I just finished updating <A=20
href=3D"http://www.cdvkiln.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.cdvkiln.com/</A> ... the=20
web site of<BR>&gt;&gt; Centre DeVerre, an artist-run source for burners =
and=20
torches. You can<BR>&gt;&gt; ask Marty Daily anything about torch work =
... he'll=20
*tell you!<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Albert<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Albert =

Lewis<BR>&gt;&gt; AllDesignCom.com | Design &amp; =
Communications<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
__________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt; 54 Cherry=20
Street&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; North Adams MA 01247<BR>&gt;&gt; =
413=20
663-7946&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
Fax: 413 663-7167<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://www.alldesigncom.com/"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.alldesigncom.com/</A><BR>&gt;&gt; =
----<BR>&gt;&gt; For=20
subscription changes, please mail to: =
glass-request@bungi.com<BR>&gt;&gt; To=20
send to the list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to:=20
glass@bungi.com<BR>&gt;&gt; Archives available at <A=20
href=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.bungi.com/glass</A><BR>&gt;&gt;=20
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 21:04:16 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 20:06:52 -0700
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Help, I've been booted!! I'm suffering from bungi withdrawals not to
mention I'm missing some hot topics!!!!!! Please boot me back on
Glenna!!

Thanks,

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 21:21:32 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: christkaiser@yahoo.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Thats how I was taught
Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 23:52:19 EDT
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Hi Chris, et al

Good on You!! 
Don't ever think that The English Method is an easy option.. It's rather like 
getting used to a new pair of glasses, or learning how to use a pair of 
binoculars. It takes a bit of practice.
I am delighted to have opened a handful of eyes to what WE in Europe are all 
about.
Oh... and I am LEARNING loads and loving it!!!
Elisabeth  ('n absent Toby in UK ) currentl in Pennsylvania , USA


 Way back in the 70's when I took my 1st lesson (I must have still been
 in the womb!) I was taught to cut the "English" way as well. I only cut
 paper pieces for the glass I asolutely cannot see through, and do very
 little grinding. When I started searching the internet, and read that
 most people cut every piece out and stuck to the patterns religiously,
 I felt a little guilty! Imagine that =P I thought I was being a little
 lazy. But I do stick with what works for me. Im glad to know Im not
 such a lazy butt. 
 take care
 chris


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From: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: FW: Blown glass ornaments
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:05:24 -0400
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  -----Original Message-----
  From: Glass Giraffe [mailto:glassgiraffe@earthlink.net]
  Sent: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:47 PM
  To: Albert Lewis; glass@bungi.com
  Subject: RE: Blown glass ornaments


  Here is one way to make ornaments on the torch, hope it helps.... (emai=
l
me for file with photos)





  Christmas in July


  by Jeff Eckes




  Coming up with fresh ideas for a column like this on a regular basis is
tough sometimes.  The problem is, I need to hear from more of you!  What =
do
you want to know about?  Is it something unusual and fairly easy to learn
like the Christmas ornament in this months installment?  Or would you rat=
her
hear more about other beadmakers and some of their techniques?  Do you en=
joy
some of the stuff on safety and equipment or should I save my breath?
Sooo...(in the voice of Billy Crystal)..let me know...drop me a line...se=
nd
me an e-mail even.


















  Reprinted from
  Glass Patterns Quarterly
  Spring/Summer, 1998
  While most folks about this time of year are enjoying the end of spring
and thinking about the beginning of summer, I start thinking about how ma=
ny
Holiday ornaments I'm going to be able to blow this year.  I often make t=
hem
as demos at art shows, as it delights young and old alike and doesn't
require kiln annealing.  Most of mine usually go to family (our entire
family collects our glass, doesn't yours?) and friends with a very few be=
ing
sold in our store It's really something that I do more for fun than anyth=
ing
else.  These are that, they're also easy to do and fast.
  Really.
  I make this ornament with 90.0 fusible-compatible glasses.  This includ=
es
a base of clear, provided by the capillary tubing.  A pallette of colors
from  manufacturers like  Uroboros, Optil Arc,  Bullseye and Kugler in
every form, from  powders and frits to bars,  rods and sheet, and  someti=
mes
little extras  like dichroic and mica  dust (pixie dust), not to  mention
all of the other strange and wonderful things that you can use
experimentally.  What I tell my students is that they are only limited by
their imagination and what will survive in the glass.  Try it...you never
know!
  This project can be made on either an oxy/propane torch or a MAP  gas
torch.  If using the latter be sure to take your time, the flame is much
cooler and most attempts to speed things up usually end poorly.
  I begin with a large capillary tube in a 90.0 glass that ranges in size
from 7mm to 10mm outside diameter with a wall thickness of at least 2mm.
This tubing is hard to find, but we are working to change that in the
future.  I cut this into 12" to 16" sections and fire polish one end,
(fig.1) the end that winds up in my mouth, of a half dozen or so tubes.
Some folks that I know have used a "heavy wall" tubing (available up to
1.5mm wall thickness) and this works, but I find that the extra wall
thickness in the capillary tubing is one of the things that make this
ornament so easy to do.  Now melt the unpolished end of the tube until yo=
u
have a nice little


  gather on the end of the tube (fig.2) about the size of a medium to lar=
ge
grape.  Let this cool until it stops glowing  remembering to keep it turn=
ing
just like a marble or the hot glass will fall off of the tube.  Re-heat t=
he
gather until it has a uniform glow and pick up your powder (Fig.3) in a
fairly thick coat.   Remember, it is going to be blown out which means th=
at
colors will become less dense as they get larger.  Once you have the firs=
t
layer of powder you can then ad other colors of frit, powder, fractures o=
f
glass, stringer,  mica, precious metals and such.   Experiment with it, b=
ut
for your first one make it simple and just put a layer of mixed color fri=
t
on it. (Fig.4) Melt the frit into the gather, round out and let cool unti=
l
just solid.  Re-heat entire gather, concentrating on getting the entire
gather as evenly heated as possible and getting it evenly hot all the way
through to the center.  When you reach the point where it wants to  fall =
off
of the tube if you stop rotating  it, remove it from the flame and keep  =
it
turning and horizontal while you  bring it to your mouth to expand the
bubble.
  At this point a definition of "blowing  glass" is in order.  When one
"blows"  glass one actually puffs it.   Sometimes you puff soft...sometim=
es
you puff hard, it really takes some practice to know when to do what, but
some general rules do apply:
          even heating is the key to a round bubble.
          when you first begin to puff will usually be when it is the
hardest
          as you puff and the glass expands it gets thinner and it is ver=
y
easy to "blow out" your gather if you don't control how hard you puff
          Control is the name of the game.  The object is to reduce the a=
ir
pressure as you increase the size of the bubble.  If you pay close attent=
ion
you will discover that the hot bubble will actually "blow back" at you
through the tube from the hot expanding air, use this
          if you do get a "blowout" then just melt it down and try again!
  Sometimes it is best to start a "seed bubble" first.  Blowing this smal=
l
bubble at the very tip of the tube increases the size of the gather only
about 10% (fig.5) but we use it to begin the expansion without actually
blowing the entire bubble.  When re-heated this "seed bubble" allows you =
to
heat the gather faster and more evenly for the second step which would be=
 to
expand the rest of the bubble.  Remember not to overheat the gather and i=
f
you do then let it cool a little before you begin to puff.  Also keep it
rotating in your mouth and keep it level if you want it to be round.  If =
you
let it droop it will tend to be oblong and if you tilt it up it will tend=
 to
be saucer shaped so keep it level.  I find that the easiest way to master
this skill is to err on the side of "too cool" rather than "too hot" when
reheating the gather in preparation to blow, if you have to reheat it a f=
ew
times so be it, at least you don't have to start again.  Blow out the bub=
ble
until it is expanded to the size that you want (fig.6), typically 1" to 3=
"
in diameter.  Start smaller then work up to larger sizes.
  Once you have your bubble expanded (ok, so it is starting to look like =
a
Christmas ornament!) you will need to flame anneal it.  On an oxy/propane
torch all need to do is turn off the oxygen and turn up the propane flame=
 to
the point that it starts to break away from the torch.  Set the ornament =
in
the flame at the point where the blue color of the flame meets the orange
color, this is the annealing area of the flame. With the addition of a sm=
all
amount of oxygen, this kind of flame can also be used as a reduction flam=
e
to iridize gold and silver oxide based frits and powders.  On a map gas
torch you would move it up in the flame until it stopped glowing and rota=
te
it there.  Now the general rule of thumb for flame annealing is "twice as
long in the annealing flame as it spent in the creation flame" but  this =
is
a pretty thin object so a  little less time is usually ok.  I  tend to
anneal for 2-3 minutes  unless I spent more than 10  minutes making the
ornament  and then I use more.  This stage  of the process is tedious at
best  so if you want to use a kiln for  annealing, then by all means do  =
so.
When I am done flame annealing I stand the tube, with the ornament attach=
ed
to it, in a weighted coffee can and let it cool to room temperature so th=
at
I can remove it from the tube.  When it cools you can remove it with a
mosaic cutter (one more good reason to own a pair!), a saw or score it wi=
th
a carbide knife.  If you use the mosaic cutter, which I recommend, be sur=
e
to keep the "handle" side of the cutters facing the tube, not the ornamen=
t
when you use it.  Just put over a box of foam peanuts or shredded paper a=
nd
cut about 3/8" above the ornament (fig.7) on the tube, which is now ready
for you to make another ornament on!  I can get up to 6 or 7 ornaments ou=
t
of each tube, so the cost per ornament is rather low, as you can imagine.
  Top it off with a standard ornament cap (available at your glass retail=
er)
and you have a wonderful gift item that is totally unique.  Go ahead, I d=
are
you to make two of these exactly alike!


  Copyright  =A9 1998
  Jeff Eckes and The Glass Giraffe=AE

  >> -----Original Message-----
  >> From: Albert Lewis [mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
  >> Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 12:04 PM
  >> To: Debbie Tenhoff
  >> Subject: Re: Blown glass ornaments
  >>
  >>
  >>
  >> > Can anyone give me a brief description on making blown glass
  >> > ornaments using a blow torch? Names of suppliers? What basic tools
  >> > are needed? Is there any good books on the subject?  Thank you in
  >> > advance.
  >>
  >> I just finished updating http://www.cdvkiln.com/ ... the web site of
  >> Centre DeVerre, an artist-run source for burners and torches. You ca=
n
  >> ask Marty Daily anything about torch work ... he'll *tell you!
  >>
  >> Albert
  >>
  >> Albert Lewis
  >> AllDesignCom.com | Design & Communications
  >> __________________________________________
  >> 54 Cherry Street      North Adams MA 01247
  >> 413 663-7946             Fax: 413 663-7167
  >>       http://www.alldesigncom.com/
  >> ----
  >> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
  >> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
  >> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
  >>


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD><TITLE></TITLE>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2314.1000" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Glass Giraffe=20
  [mailto:glassgiraffe@earthlink.net] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August =
19, 1999=20
  10:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Albert Lewis; =
glass@bungi.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE:=20
  Blown glass ornaments<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Here is one way to make ornaments on the torch, hope =
it=20
  helps.... (<SPAN class=3D100105401-20081999>email me for =
f</SPAN>ile&nbsp;<SPAN=20
  class=3D100105401-20081999>with </SPAN>photos)<BR><BR></FONT></P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</P>
  <P><FONT size=3D2>Christmas in July<BR><BR><BR>by Jeff=20
  Eckes<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Coming up with fresh ideas for a column like =
this on=20
  a regular basis is tough sometimes.&nbsp; The problem is, I need to =
hear from=20
  more of you!&nbsp; What do you want to know about?&nbsp; Is it =
something=20
  unusual and fairly easy to learn like the Christmas ornament in this =
months=20
  installment?&nbsp; Or would you rather hear more about other =
beadmakers and=20
  some of their techniques?&nbsp; Do you enjoy some of the stuff on =
safety and=20
  equipment or should I save my breath?&nbsp; Sooo...(in the voice of =
Billy=20
  Crystal)..let me know...drop me a line...send me an e-mail=20
  =
even.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>=
<BR><BR>Reprinted=20
  from<BR>Glass Patterns Quarterly<BR>Spring/Summer, 1998<BR>While most =
folks=20
  about this time of year are enjoying the end of spring and thinking =
about the=20
  beginning of summer, I start thinking about how many Holiday ornaments =
I'm=20
  going to be able to blow this year.&nbsp; I often make them as demos =
at art=20
  shows, as it delights young and old alike and doesn't require kiln=20
  annealing.&nbsp; Most of mine usually go to family (our entire family =
collects=20
  our glass, doesn't yours?) and friends with a very few being sold in =
our store=20
  It's really something that I do more for fun than anything else.&nbsp; =
These=20
  are that, they're also easy to do and fast.&nbsp;<BR>Really.<BR>I make =
this=20
  ornament with 90.0 fusible-compatible glasses.&nbsp; This includes a =
base of=20
  clear, provided by the capillary tubing.&nbsp; A pallette of colors =
from&nbsp;=20
  manufacturers like&nbsp; Uroboros, Optil Arc,&nbsp; Bullseye and =
Kugler=20
  in&nbsp; every form, from&nbsp; powders and frits to bars,&nbsp; rods =
and=20
  sheet, and&nbsp; sometimes little extras&nbsp; like dichroic and =
mica&nbsp;=20
  dust (pixie dust), not to&nbsp; mention all of the other strange and =
wonderful=20
  things that you can use experimentally.&nbsp; What I tell my students =
is that=20
  they are only limited by their imagination and what will survive in =
the=20
  glass.&nbsp; Try it...you never know!<BR>This project can be made on =
either an=20
  oxy/propane torch or a MAP&nbsp; gas torch.&nbsp; If using the latter =
be sure=20
  to take your time, the flame is much cooler and most attempts to speed =
things=20
  up usually end poorly.<BR>I begin with a large capillary tube in a =
90.0 glass=20
  that ranges in size from 7mm to 10mm outside diameter with a wall =
thickness of=20
  at least 2mm.&nbsp; This tubing is hard to find, but we are working to =
change=20
  that in the future.&nbsp; I cut this into 12" to 16" sections and fire =
polish=20
  one end, (fig.1) the end that winds up in my mouth, of a half dozen or =
so=20
  tubes.&nbsp;&nbsp; Some folks that I know have used a "heavy wall" =
tubing=20
  (available up to 1.5mm wall thickness) and this works, but I find that =
the=20
  extra wall thickness in the capillary tubing is one of the things that =
make=20
  this ornament so easy to do.&nbsp; Now melt the unpolished end of the =
tube=20
  until you have a nice=20
  =
little<BR><BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>gather=20
  on the end of the tube (fig.2) about the size of a medium to large=20
  grape.&nbsp; Let this cool until it stops glowing&nbsp; remembering to =
keep it=20
  turning just like a marble or the hot glass will fall off of the =
tube.&nbsp;=20
  Re-heat the gather until it has a uniform glow and pick up your powder =
(Fig.3)=20
  in a fairly thick coat.&nbsp;&nbsp; Remember, it is going to be blown =
out=20
  which means that colors will become less dense as they get =
larger.&nbsp; Once=20
  you have the first layer of powder you can then ad other colors of =
frit,=20
  powder, fractures of glass, stringer,&nbsp; mica, precious metals and=20
  such.&nbsp;&nbsp; Experiment with it, but for your first one make it =
simple=20
  and just put a layer of mixed color frit on it. (Fig.4) Melt the frit =
into the=20
  gather, round out and let cool until just solid.&nbsp; Re-heat entire =
gather,=20
  concentrating on getting the entire gather as evenly heated as =
possible and=20
  getting it evenly hot all the way through to the center.&nbsp; When =
you reach=20
  the point where it wants to&nbsp; fall off of the tube if you stop=20
  rotating&nbsp; it, remove it from the flame and keep&nbsp; it turning =
and=20
  horizontal while you&nbsp; bring it to your mouth to expand the&nbsp;=20
  bubble.<BR>At this point a definition of "blowing&nbsp; glass" is in=20
  order.&nbsp; When one "blows"&nbsp; glass one actually puffs =
it.&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
  Sometimes you puff soft...sometimes&nbsp; you puff hard, it really =
takes some=20
  practice to know when to do what, but some general rules do=20
  apply:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; even heating is =
the key=20
  to a round bubble.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when =
you=20
  first begin to puff will usually be when it is the=20
  hardest<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; as you puff and =
the=20
  glass expands it gets thinner and it is very easy to "blow out" your =
gather if=20
  you don't control how hard you=20
  puff<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Control is the name =
of the=20
  game.&nbsp; The object is to reduce the air pressure as you increase =
the size=20
  of the bubble.&nbsp; If you pay close attention you will discover that =
the hot=20
  bubble will actually "blow back" at you through the tube from the hot=20
  expanding air, use this<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
if you=20
  do get a "blowout" then just melt it down and try again!<BR>Sometimes =
it is=20
  best to start a "seed bubble" first.&nbsp; Blowing this small bubble =
at the=20
  very tip of the tube increases the size of the gather only about 10% =
(fig.5)=20
  but we use it to begin the expansion without actually blowing the =
entire=20
  bubble.&nbsp; When re-heated this "seed bubble" allows you to heat the =
gather=20
  faster and more evenly for the second step which would be to expand =
the rest=20
  of the bubble.&nbsp; Remember not to overheat the gather and if you do =
then=20
  let it cool a little before you begin to puff.&nbsp; Also keep it =
rotating in=20
  your mouth and keep it level if you want it to be round.&nbsp; If you =
let it=20
  droop it will tend to be oblong and if you tilt it up it will tend to =
be=20
  saucer shaped so keep it level.&nbsp; I find that the easiest way to =
master=20
  this skill is to err on the side of "too cool" rather than "too hot" =
when=20
  reheating the gather in preparation to blow, if you have to reheat it =
a few=20
  times so be it, at least you don't have to start again.&nbsp; Blow out =
the=20
  bubble until it is expanded to the size that you want (fig.6), =
typically 1" to=20
  3" in diameter.&nbsp; Start smaller then work up to larger =
sizes.<BR>Once you=20
  have your bubble expanded (ok, so it is starting to look like a =
Christmas=20
  ornament!) you will need to flame anneal it.&nbsp; On an oxy/propane =
torch all=20
  need to do is turn off the oxygen and turn up the propane flame to the =
point=20
  that it starts to break away from the torch.&nbsp; Set the ornament in =
the=20
  flame at the point where the blue color of the flame meets the orange =
color,=20
  this is the annealing area of the flame. With the addition of a small =
amount=20
  of oxygen, this kind of flame can also be used as a reduction flame to =
iridize=20
  gold and silver oxide based frits and powders.&nbsp; On a map gas =
torch you=20
  would move it up in the flame until it stopped glowing and rotate it=20
  there.&nbsp; Now the general rule of thumb for flame annealing is =
"twice as=20
  long in the annealing flame as it spent in the creation flame" =
but&nbsp; this=20
  is a pretty thin object so a&nbsp; little less time is usually =
ok.&nbsp;=20
  I&nbsp; tend to anneal for 2-3 minutes&nbsp; unless I spent more than =
10&nbsp;=20
  minutes making the ornament&nbsp; and then I use more.&nbsp; This =
stage&nbsp;=20
  of the process is tedious at best&nbsp; so if you want to use a kiln =
for&nbsp;=20
  annealing, then by all means do&nbsp; so.&nbsp; When I am done flame =
annealing=20
  I stand the tube, with the ornament attached to it, in a weighted =
coffee can=20
  and let it cool to room temperature so that I can remove it from the=20
  tube.&nbsp; When it cools you can remove it with a mosaic cutter (one =
more=20
  good reason to own a pair!), a saw or score it with a carbide =
knife.&nbsp; If=20
  you use the mosaic cutter, which I recommend, be sure to keep the =
"handle"=20
  side of the cutters facing the tube, not the ornament when you use =
it.&nbsp;=20
  Just put over a box of foam peanuts or shredded paper and cut about =
3/8" above=20
  the ornament (fig.7) on the tube, which is now ready for you to make =
another=20
  ornament on!&nbsp; I can get up to 6 or 7 ornaments out of each tube, =
so the=20
  cost per ornament is rather low, as you can imagine.<BR>Top it off =
with a=20
  standard ornament cap (available at your glass retailer) and you have =
a=20
  wonderful gift item that is totally unique.&nbsp; Go ahead, I dare you =
to make=20
  two of these exactly alike!<BR><BR><BR>Copyright&nbsp; =A9 =
1998<BR>Jeff Eckes=20
  and The Glass Giraffe=AE<BR><BR>&gt;&gt; -----Original =
Message-----<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  From: Albert Lewis [<A href=3D"mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net"=20
  target=3D_blank>mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net</A>]<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Sent:=20
  Sunday, July 04, 1999 12:04 PM<BR>&gt;&gt; To: Debbie =
Tenhoff<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  Subject: Re: Blown glass=20
  ornaments<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; Can =
anyone give=20
  me a brief description on making blown glass<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
ornaments using=20
  a blow torch? Names of suppliers? What basic tools<BR>&gt;&gt; &gt; =
are=20
  needed? Is there any good books on the subject?&nbsp; Thank you =
in<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  &gt; advance.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; I just finished updating <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.cdvkiln.com/" =
target=3D_blank>http://www.cdvkiln.com/</A> ...=20
  the web site of<BR>&gt;&gt; Centre DeVerre, an artist-run source for =
burners=20
  and torches. You can<BR>&gt;&gt; ask Marty Daily anything about torch =
work ...=20
  he'll *tell you!<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; =
Albert<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Albert=20
  Lewis<BR>&gt;&gt; AllDesignCom.com | Design &amp; =
Communications<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  __________________________________________<BR>&gt;&gt; 54 Cherry=20
  Street&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; North Adams MA 01247<BR>&gt;&gt; =
413=20
  =
663-7946&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;=20
  Fax: 413 663-7167<BR>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.alldesigncom.com/"=20
  target=3D_blank>http://www.alldesigncom.com/</A><BR>&gt;&gt; =
----<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  For subscription changes, please mail to: =
glass-request@bungi.com<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
  To send to the list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to:=20
  glass@bungi.com<BR>&gt;&gt; Archives available at <A=20
  href=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass"=20
  target=3D_blank>http://www.bungi.com/glass</A><BR>&gt;&gt;=20
</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 22:07:41 1999
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com
	via smail with stdio
	id <m11HgCt-0000mCa@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Thu, 19 Aug 1999 21:23:11 -0700 (PDT)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Special-edition pictures
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:19:00 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.4190.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Suzanne, et al

Hey.... Let it go. Don't allow yourself to get wound up. Relax. A small 
number of individuals are intent to get the rest of us wound up. A great 
challenge to you and who you are, is NOT to rise to it. You are doing OK.
Elisabeth 'n absent Toby in UK (currently in Pennsylvanis, USA)
 
 File:  joints2.jpg (82435 bytes)
 DL Time (50666 bps): < 1 minute
 
 Here is my fluke...work is done (I think) except for framing in oak.
 
 You didnt see the crap that Liz A sent me.  you would put her mail in
 the trash too.  Better for the blood pressure.
 
 If I can find any of it I will forward it to you to see.  You will see
 what I mean.  What I accidently made public to bungi was nothing
 compared to the full rant she sent me publicly.
 -- 
 Suzanne
----
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Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Thu Aug 19 22:16:25 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Front surface glass/Elisabeth/doing it right
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 00:18:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug19.201849.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanks to everyone who explained this glass to me. Now I'm determined to see
some for myself, so I'm on the hunt starting tomorrow!
As for English cutting, I have done it several times. One person I know says
it's a MAJOR no no, as it's too easy to get a sideways angle on the pattern,
another says it's the preferred method. I find I use it all the time when
the glass is transparent enough, and I LIKE it. I DO make very sure to keep
my eyes directly over the portion of the line that I am cutting, and it DOES
make for some interesting contortions, but the time it saves in cutting
paper patterns is worth it!
I am enjoying all the tips you all have shared from Elisabeth. You're all
painting good verbal pictures, so it's been quite easy to understand.
The lesson on doing it right reminds me of the way FBI (or whoever it is who
inspects currency) learns how to detect counterfeit money. They spend hours
upon hours studying real currency. NOT ONCE are they introduced to the fake,
the reason being, if they know the real thing so well, they will be able to
spot the conterfeit easily. Same principle. Learn it the "right" way, and
know it perfectly, then you can determine if another way is truly
beneficial. Good lesson. I'm enjoying all these threads.
Thanks to all who have contributed!
Mary



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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 05:20:33 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: NG-Thanks for the Pictures!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 07:49:46 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.04946.0>
Precedence: bulk

Steve did a great job documenting the recent E-tour pow wow at Meredith. 
The pictures were fun to see and the next best thing to being there. 
Thanks, Steve.  We've always wondered what Patrick "the tutu" looked
like.......:>)  Wonder no longer!

Diane Manchester
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 07:46:38 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:28:57 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.142857.0>
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In a message dated 8/19/99 8:17:17 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:

>I use one glass cutter to
>cut all my glass... don't seem to have any particular
>problems even though it's evident that some glass
>is harder to cut than other glass....

I just killed my second K-Star cutter in 2 years. The bodies just give out on 
me. This one cracked in 3 places, along both seams and up one side. As far as 
I know, I don't lean on them too hard; the cutter wheel is still just fine. 
Has anyone else had this problem?

I have a *real* Toyo on order. In the mean time I've got the cutter head 
screwed into the back end of the broken handle. Takes a bit of getting used 
to, but works for the short term.........


Sparks, off to work........
----
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 08:11:22 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Somewhat NG Doing the impossible, was Re: Cutting Front Surface
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:29:12 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.142912.0>
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In a message dated 8/19/99 11:12:04 PM, alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

>So-called teachers who teach that something can't be done have lost 
>track of what teaching's about, by my lights.

Not only that, but they can do a whole lot of actual harm to their students. 
I'm a professional choral singer in one of my other current lives, and I have 
a dear friend who has serious damage to her vocal apparatus because of a 
teacher (at a well-respected music conservatory which will here remain 
nameless) who interfered too much with her natural rapid-fire coloratura 
ability - he thought that what she was doing vocally was "impossible" for a 
relatively untrained voice and told her so repeatedly. She ended up so tense 
that there are times when she can't sing at all - her pipes just seize up.


Sparks
    who does her best work when allowed the freedom
    to do the impossible
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 08:31:29 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: E-Tour visits North Wales, PA
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 10:29:02 EDT
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In a message dated 8/19/99 11:24:51 PM, Ensembles@compuserve.com writes:

>Watch out!
>She's been looking through all my wholesale/retail stained
>glass suppliers catalogs and taking copius notes.

........including the name and address of a lead came manufacturer that touts 
its product as "the preferred brand in Europe" or something like that. Her 
comment: "I've never heard of them."

So everyone be warned - with Elisabeth around, "ya gotta do ya homewoik!" 
She'll keep you honest, for sure!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 09:06:11 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:03:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.7348.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.142857.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/19/99 8:17:17 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:
> 
> >I use one glass cutter to
> >cut all my glass... don't seem to have any particular
> >problems even though it's evident that some glass
> >is harder to cut than other glass....
> 
> I just killed my second K-Star cutter in 2 years. The bodies just give out on
> me. This one cracked in 3 places, along both seams and up one side. As far as
> I know, I don't lean on them too hard; the cutter wheel is still just fine.
> Has anyone else had this problem?
> 
> I have a *real* Toyo on order. In the mean time I've got the cutter head
> screwed into the back end of the broken handle. Takes a bit of getting used
> to, but works for the short term.........
> 
> Sparks, off to work........
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would find the email address or phone number and demand a new one. the
cutter head with constant use (for me), lasts about 2-3 years. the body
should'nt ever break. my fletcher broke, they replaced it. now they have
a brass ferrule (sp), there. maybe the oil your using is weakening it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 10:13:30 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface Glass
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:03:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.7348.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.142857.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/19/99 8:17:17 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:
> 
> >I use one glass cutter to
> >cut all my glass... don't seem to have any particular
> >problems even though it's evident that some glass
> >is harder to cut than other glass....
> 
> I just killed my second K-Star cutter in 2 years. The bodies just give out on
> me. This one cracked in 3 places, along both seams and up one side. As far as
> I know, I don't lean on them too hard; the cutter wheel is still just fine.
> Has anyone else had this problem?
> 
> I have a *real* Toyo on order. In the mean time I've got the cutter head
> screwed into the back end of the broken handle. Takes a bit of getting used
> to, but works for the short term.........
> 
> Sparks, off to work........
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would find the email address or phone number and demand a new one. the
cutter head with constant use (for me), lasts about 2-3 years. the body
should'nt ever break. my fletcher broke, they replaced it. now they have
a brass ferrule (sp), there. maybe the oil your using is weakening it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 11:04:24 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Glass Giraffe" <glassgiraffe@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Educational Question
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:37:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.93726.0>
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Message text written by "Glass Giraffe"
>Albert,

Funny how things happen BUT....  I may have the opportunity in the near
future to get a degreed program (associate) going in NC.  No kidding!  We=

are talking with the college now and have taken on their substantial
continuing ED program this fall to prove ourselves.
Do you think that a program like that will fly?  Would love to get your
"official" opinion for the college if I could as well.  Interested?

Contact me when you can,<

The IGGA board is looking at opportunities throughout
the country and would be glad to add the information
you have to our list for perusal.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Treasurer
International Guild of Glass Artists
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 11:21:08 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com" <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:37:45 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
>
I have a *real* Toyo on order. In the mean time I've got the cutter head =

screwed into the back end of the broken handle. Takes a bit of getting us=
ed

to, but works for the short term.........

<
I use a Toyo Supercutter brass barrel....
they're worth the cost.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 11:43:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Front surface glass/Elisabeth/doing it right
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:37:34 -0400
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Message text written by "Mary"
>One person I know says
it's a MAJOR no no, as it's too easy to get a sideways angle on the
pattern,
another says it's the preferred method.<

It is ONE method and time-honored at that.... =

using a traced and cut-out pattern is another
very old method and has its uses, too.  Neither
is necessarily better than the other... neither
is more "right" or "wrong".

Best,

Dani Greer (who thinks everyone ought to study a bit of history...)
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 12:01:39 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG-Thanks for the Pictures!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:45:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.94519.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.04946.0>>
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May I also add my heartfelt thanks to everyone involved! I have really
enjoyed the pictures. After all the interaction between Elisabeth and
Patrick on this list, it was totally priceless to see them face to face!
Kris

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 13:20:57 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Front surface glass/Elisabeth/doing it right
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:37:34 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.93734.0>
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Message text written by "Mary"
>One person I know says
it's a MAJOR no no, as it's too easy to get a sideways angle on the
pattern,
another says it's the preferred method.<

It is ONE method and time-honored at that.... =

using a traced and cut-out pattern is another
very old method and has its uses, too.  Neither
is necessarily better than the other... neither
is more "right" or "wrong".

Best,

Dani Greer (who thinks everyone ought to study a bit of history...)
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 13:39:47 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG-Thanks for the Pictures!
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 13:45:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.94519.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.04946.0>>
Precedence: bulk

May I also add my heartfelt thanks to everyone involved! I have really
enjoyed the pictures. After all the interaction between Elisabeth and
Patrick on this list, it was totally priceless to see them face to face!
Kris

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 13:45:50 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG: Aloha oye, Aloha oye..Re: Subcribe
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 11:01:28 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.4128.0>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk

O.k. as I dug out my grass skirt, tiki torch and called Kimo the flame
throwing beach boy a thought crossed my mind. If you all are receiving
my bungi mail and I am not, seems like this may be a mail problem from
my end or no? Usually when someone has been bounced they no longer can
send mail to the bounced addy. But your all getting my mail.
Humph....... Dani, Suzanne, Bob, Jim, Mary, Carol have all let me know
they got my mail. Oh Bob, my way of dealing with the withdrawals was to
open that can of bud then check the archives. Thanks for the suggestion
:)

And as a P.S. where the heck have the bios been for crying out loud
Patrick!! Not that I can read them via email anyway argh.......

Signed,

Upset in Washington

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 14:07:35 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: the infamous postcard box
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:40:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.124016.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just in case anyone wondered how it all came out, she did end up returning
the box. It appears to have some moisture on the postcard, not only on the
upper left, the only place she mentioned, but also on the upper right (you
can barely see it at the top of that tower) and along the bottom. I took
pics but the affected areas don't show up well at all where they are on the
black. I also took a picture of the back, but the only area that doesn't
look right is behind the upper left corner that she mentioned. This has a
pink tinge to it which really baffles me. Where did this pink come from??
The darker spots in the two corners are where I glued the postcard and they
seem to have gotten quite a bit darker, don't think I would repeat that.
UGLY postcard IMO, I groaned when I got it. I think I'll replace it with one
of the beautiful antique postcards I have here :)

You can see pics at http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox.htm (warning -
big files, slow download time on slower modems) or individually -

http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox1.jpg front

http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox2.jpg back of postcard

http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox3.jpg smaller pic of the whole box,
too bad you can't see the little feet on it, I thought they were cute.

Thank you all for your kindness and emails, and for your patience as the
discussion went long!

Warning!! - she is looking for someone else to do the job now, just
contacted another artist who is not only my friend, but lives right here in
the same town. I think my friend should take the job, and then send her the
exact same box! LOL Just kidding - I was good, refunded her account in full
plus a little extra to cover her shipping back to me.

Kris

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 14:47:54 1999
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From: Leslye Nelson <leslye2@earthlink.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Instructions for Sprinkler
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 15:30:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.113037.0>
References: <<1999Aug19.51452.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I would love to have the directions to the sprinkler.
Thanks,Leslye

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 15:10:07 1999
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From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'kristc@home.com'" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: the infamous postcard box
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:22:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.13224.0>
Precedence: bulk

heat will make some glues discolor.

also the pink could have come from the ink running. if you put a drop of ink
on paper, let it dry, then put a drop of water on it, you'll see that some
colors of the ink bleed out into the paper. this is actually how they
separate chemicals that are mixed together in test labs, since every
chemical will travel a different distance on the paper. it's called
electrophoresis.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kris [mailto:kristc@home.com]
> Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 1:40 PM
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: the infamous postcard box
> 
> 
> Just in case anyone wondered how it all came out, she did end 
> up returning
> the box. It appears to have some moisture on the postcard, 
> not only on the
> upper left, the only place she mentioned, but also on the 
> upper right (you
> can barely see it at the top of that tower) and along the 
> bottom. I took
> pics but the affected areas don't show up well at all where 
> they are on the
> black. I also took a picture of the back, but the only area 
> that doesn't
> look right is behind the upper left corner that she 
> mentioned. This has a
> pink tinge to it which really baffles me. Where did this pink 
> come from??
> The darker spots in the two corners are where I glued the 
> postcard and they
> seem to have gotten quite a bit darker, don't think I would 
> repeat that.
<snip>
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 15:28:54 1999
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From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Different Tree
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:36:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.133641.0>
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Hello All,
Thanks for the  help and ideas.
I did not explain the tree right. I want to make one that would have a
light inside it. The tree would surround the light. I had seen an IMPORT
one.The idea was good, but that was all. I am sure it would beautiful
made with good glass.
Hope I am explaining better
TIA
Goldpaws
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 15:36:56 1999
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X-Path: netzero.net!kseeglass
From: "K See" <kseeglass@netzero.net>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: the infamous postcard box
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:07:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.1477.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.124016.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I wonder if it's ink from the postcard which usually is oil based. If the
glue was water based that may have made it damp enough or just the heat,
while shipping, may have made it sweat.

When I do this I use double strength glass for the top and then I foil &
solder a piece of single strength. It is the last thing I do. The box has
been cleaned & polished (& patina, if I use it). I run a bead around the
edge of the SS. This adds enough distance between the two glasses to slide
something between them. I solder three sides with just drops of solder, just
enough to attach them.Use a Q-tip to put the flux on and I then use a Q-tip
(damp-not dripping) to apply the patina to match. Oh, I also cut a piece of
paper towel to place between them, just in case. Remember to leave it a
little longer on one side so it's easier to pull out when done.

As far as the postcard goes, I think they have nicer ones but I would have
put in a picture taken at that  beach. Better memory. I have some from Jones
Beach- my Mom at 18 (1946), my sis & I taken in 1952 and last year of all of
us taken in Sept. one of the best times (no people) & beaches to go too. I
recognized the PC before it had completely loaded up.

KSee
kseeglass@netzero.net

"It is not true that life is one damn thing after another..it's one damn
thing over and over."
Edna St. Vincent Millay (1892-1952)
----- Original Message -----
From: Kris <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 4:40 PM
Subject: the infamous postcard box


| Just in case anyone wondered how it all came out, she did end up returning
| the box. It appears to have some moisture on the postcard, not only on the
| upper left, the only place she mentioned, but also on the upper right (you
| can barely see it at the top of that tower) and along the bottom. I took
| pics but the affected areas don't show up well at all where they are on
the
| black. I also took a picture of the back, but the only area that doesn't
| look right is behind the upper left corner that she mentioned. This has a
| pink tinge to it which really baffles me. Where did this pink come from??
| The darker spots in the two corners are where I glued the postcard and
they
| seem to have gotten quite a bit darker, don't think I would repeat that.
| UGLY postcard IMO, I groaned when I got it. I think I'll replace it with
one
| of the beautiful antique postcards I have here :)
|
| You can see pics at http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox.htm
(warning -
| big files, slow download time on slower modems) or individually -
|
| http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox1.jpg front
|
| http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox2.jpg back of postcard
|
| http://www.areahealthadvantage.net/pcbox3.jpg smaller pic of the whole
box,
| too bad you can't see the little feet on it, I thought they were cute.
|
| Thank you all for your kindness and emails, and for your patience as the
| discussion went long!
|
| Warning!! - she is looking for someone else to do the job now, just
| contacted another artist who is not only my friend, but lives right here
in
| the same town. I think my friend should take the job, and then send her
the
| exact same box! LOL Just kidding - I was good, refunded her account in
full
| plus a little extra to cover her shipping back to me.
|
| Kris
|
| ----
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| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
|

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 17:19:32 1999
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X-Path: hotmail.com!katmath
From: "Kathy Mather" <katmath@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: NG sealent for mirror
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 16:38:10 PDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.233810.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi folks,
  Just wanted to thank everyone that answered my question about a mirror 
sealent. Thanks again for you help, everyone here is always so helpful.
                    Kathy


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 17:33:15 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: The E-Tour, Special-edition pictures
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 19:48:21 EDT
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WHAT!!!
N O  BEER???? Ain't coming!!  ;->

Spent a fascinating afternoon with PJ and Paul Friend in the Studio.
Boy! has he got some georgous stuff!!

Will write to you PJ and Paul later, but in the meantime, THANKS for a 
fascinating time  (and the dichroic!). Am still savouring the story about 
Washington Cathedral and the dog!!  ;->
Elisabeth

In a message dated 08/19/1999 8:47:52 PM !!!First Boot!!!, 
GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:


 Elisabeth thanks for touching base
 with us!  Now be sure to tip those
 glasses before you get to my house,
 dear, because there'll be no drinking
 at this altitude!  I expect to get some
 work out of you and knocked off your
 feet with one beer is not going to do
 me any good! LOL.
 
 Best,
 
 Dani

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 17:47:04 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Question about magazines
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 20:11:50 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.01150.0>
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Hi all, I am curious to hear some of your opinions on the various industry 
magazines - mostly those aimed at prof. crafters (Sunshine Artist, etc.). I 
read Crafts Report, but other than that, have a hard time locating mags in my 
area. Any/all suggestions/comments would be appreciated.

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 18:18:31 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Gotta Question Mosaics
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 17:51:18 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.105118.0>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk

Alabama Susan wrote:

Hey all you folks out in bungi land!

I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the
brick
of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no
roof.
Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would
bring it
inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice
for
the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold
the
glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with.
Would
this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?

I would appreciate your input so greatly!!


Here is what I suggest and no I'm still not receiving mail, just going
over the archives :)

Apply the mosaic to 1/8 inch plywood, marine grade is the best to use.
Use cement based tile adhesive or you can use waterproof glue, (Red
Devil, Liquid nails clear etc.) to apply the tiles, glass, whatever to
the board. Be sure everything is dry before you apply the grout. Also,
don't mix the grout too runny or you will have shrinkage and potential
cracking of the grout. If you use weld bond that would be fine with this
project too. Sounds to me like that would have the same properties at
the above adhesives.

If you want to screw the finished project into the wall just make sure
you insert say some straws into the project before grout is dry. That
way you can always remove the project at a later date without too much
trouble.

I think I read somewhere in the archives that someone wanted to do a
back splash in this manner. Do the splash the same way you would the
above project. I would also recommend you seal the grout after it is all
dry.

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 18:51:03 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Copywrites
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:03:41 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.1341.0>
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Hello again,
Can anyone direct me as to obtaining copywrites for my designs? Do I really 
need to do this through a lawyer, or is there some easier way? I am 
interested in hearing about other peoples experiences with copywrites, having 
them, and not having them. Thanks a lot!

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 19:21:51 1999
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X-Path: foxinternet.net!lin
From: "lin" <lin@foxinternet.net>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: the infamous postcard box
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 18:41:21 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.114121.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.124016.0>>
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very nice box Kris!  it's a shame what travel and the elements can do, but
then we all get a nice lesson in science along the way!  I love the
decorative soldering around the postcard.... how did you do that?  (If this
is a dumb "newbie" question, you can answer me direct or tell me to take a
hike - or a class).  Specifically, did you cut the glass with a border
beyond the postcard size and use a wide foil on the glass?  And, it looks so
randomly inspirational..... i have done solder beads, imbedded things on a
wand, limited kinds of stuff, but i really like the effect you
achieved.......
TIA
layla

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 20:53:51 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: the infamous postcard box
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 23:15:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.191526.0>
References: <<005101beeb76$45fb06a0$10e41ad0@ligre>>
Precedence: bulk

I've had quite a few requests for info about the decorative solder so that
is why I'm posting this to the list.

The decorative solder around the postcard is SO easy you will love it! Take
an ordinary cheap kitchen sponge and get it wet, not dripping, but good and
damp. Put your solder on the seam and while it is still melted and liquid,
dab it with the sponge. (it will hiss and spit a little) If you try it out
you will get a feel for how much solder to use and how hard to dab. If you
want it to look neat you will probably have to pick up some stray blobs
along the edges but that is no big deal. I learned this from the Glass
Giraffe video on soldering that my friend Lee Boe let me watch :) I love
this effect, think it really dresses up some things and I have had all sorts
of comments on it. Just smile and nod, you don't need to tell them it is a
whole lot easier than making a perfect solder bead! LOL

The postcard is between two pieces of thinner glass like a sandwich, and the
glass is cut to leave maybe a 1/2 cm. of glass beyond the edges of the
postcard. Yes, I used wide foil because the "sandwich" was too fat for my
regular foil. This left a wide solder seam which I had trouble making as
nice as smooth as I wanted, so I tried the sponge thing and liked the way
that looked a lot better.  I thought it helped set off the postcard as the
focus of the box.

Kris

PS Thanks so much for the email layla :) There are NO dumb newbie questions!
We are all in various stages of learning here and sharing stuff is what
makes this glass community so rewarding.

I love the
> decorative soldering around the postcard.... how did you do that?  (If
this
> is a dumb "newbie" question, you can answer me direct or tell me to take a
> hike - or a class).  Specifically, did you cut the glass with a border
> beyond the postcard size and use a wide foil on the glass?  And, it looks
so
> randomly inspirational..... i have done solder beads, imbedded things on a
> wand, limited kinds of stuff, but i really like the effect you
> achieved.......
> TIA
> layla
>

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 20 21:09:05 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copywrites
Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 23:21:27 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug20.192127.0>
References: <<1999Aug21.1341.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> Can anyone direct me as to obtaining copywrites for my designs? Do I really
> need to do this through a lawyer, or is there some easier way? I am
> interested in hearing about other peoples experiences with copywrites, having
> them, and not having them. Thanks a lot!
> 
> Laura
> HiimLaura@aol.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


here's the copyright link http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/ that might
help

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 02:31:26 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copywrites
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 04:42:13 +0000
Message-ID: <199908210841.EAA17332@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> Can anyone direct me as to obtaining copywrites for my designs? Do I
> really need to do this through a lawyer, or is there some easier
> way? I am interested in hearing about other peoples experiences with
> copywrites, having them, and not having them.

Everyone has copyrights, Laura. Under the current law, as soon as you 
make something, it's copyrighted, which means you could sue them to 
stop "infringing," or copying your design. To sue them for money 
damages, howver, the copyright must be *registered. For information 
on how to do that, go to the web site of the Library of Congress for 
the forms and information:

http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/

Albert
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 08:57:58 1999
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X-Path: bellsouth.net!tidwell2
From: Rita Tidwell <tidwell2@bellsouth.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: foil
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 11:05:32 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.7532.0>
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Can anyone tell me how to keep foil from "cracking" on tight curves.
Also how to take photos without glare. Thanks, Rita

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 09:09:18 1999
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From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Copywrites
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:48:57 -0400 (EDT)
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On Fri, 20 Aug 1999 HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello again,
> Can anyone direct me as to obtaining copywrites for my designs? <snip> 
> 
> Laura
> HiimLaura@aol.com 
>
Here are some copyright links I have:

http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/
http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/bytopic/intprop/circ1.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copyright.html
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

Jim

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 09:22:21 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:48:26 EDT
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In a message dated 8/20/99 3:04:15 PM, esavad@home.net writes:

>maybe the oil your using is weakening it.

Interesting thought, but I doubt it - I've been using regular old 
garden-variety cutting oil.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 09:29:44 1999
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Subject: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:48:23 EDT
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Anybody besides me planning on camping out for Glass Visions weekend? If so, 
where? I'm getting ready to throw a mattress pad and a few clothes and stuff 
in the back of my van and hit the road. I'm planning to camp out Friday and 
Saturday nights (have to be home Sunday afternoon).

Fancy amenities don't matter, I've been known to overnight by the side of the 
road (NOTE: I'm *NOT* considering that a viable option this time in light of 
the recent jailbreaks in the area, never mind that they've caught them all in 
the last day or two), but if anyone's already made reservations anywhere and 
wouldn't mind having another bungi nut around for the party, please let me 
know so I can plan accordingly.

Other than that....... Look for me in the IGGA booth on Saturday morning 
(that's what I get for working for a board member........). Am also planning 
on being at breakfast on Saturday. See y'all there (that's what I get for 
working for a Texan)!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 09:34:00 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Gotta Question Mosaics
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:48:36 EDT
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In a message dated 8/21/99 1:19:40 AM, Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com writes:

>Apply the mosaic to 1/8 inch plywood, marine grade is the best to use.
>Use cement based tile adhesive or you can use waterproof glue, (Red
>Devil, Liquid nails clear etc.) to apply the tiles

Red Devil is good stuff. If you try to pry a glass tile off plywood once 
you've stuck it on with Red Devil, you'll take a divot out of the wood. And 
that's on *painted* plywood. I dunno what's in that stuff, but it goes 
through the paint and grabs onto the wood.


Sparks
    who saw the actual test results
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 09:41:56 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust........
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 10:48:28 EDT
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In a message dated 8/20/99 5:39:55 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:

>I use a Toyo Supercutter brass barrel....
>they're worth the cost.

Wouldn't ya know, the first thing that flashed through my head when my second 
cutter broke was:

"Don't they make these things out of metal?????"

Gotta check it out!

In the mean time, I just plain gave up on my K-Star yesterday because the 
head kept coming unscrewed from the back end (honi soit qui mal y pense) and 
I couldn't "cut on the lines" to save my life. (It was so bad, I couldn't 
even get a good break on plain old cathedral glass!)

So I went down to the hardware store and spent $5 on a no-frills Fletcher 
'cause I still had a mess of cutting to do. First time I've used one of those 
except once a *long* time ago to slice down some window glass.

I'm still getting used to the grip and getting the hang of holding the thing 
absolutely perpendicular (and you sure know when it's leaning even a tiny 
bit, because you get some *wicked* knife edges on the cut glass!), but I 
actually kind of like it - with no barrel in the way, I can see exactly where 
the wheel is going, and because the head doesn't swivel, the thing doesn't 
"wander" on me the way my K-Star did.

I guess there's something to be said for low-tech........ but that doesn't 
mean I'm going to cancel my order for a new Toyo!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 10:29:27 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Rita Tidwell <tidwell2@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: foil
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:18:08 -0400
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Rita Tidwell wrote:
> 
> Can anyone tell me how to keep foil from "cracking" on tight curves.
> Also how to take photos without glare. Thanks, Rita
> 
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it depends how tight the curve is, and how thick the foil is. i use the
middle thickness foil. over the deep or tight curves, you'll want to rub
them with the fid. rub the foiled part first, then slowly tilt in,
rubbing back and forth. this will allow the foil to stretch. work slowly
tilting in until it's flat. it's like rubbing the tin foil on a piece of
candy to see the design underneath, same principle anyway.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 10:41:42 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
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Subject: Re: foil
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:20:32 -0400
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Rita Tidwell wrote:
> 
> Can anyone tell me how to keep foil from "cracking" on tight curves.
> Also how to take photos without glare. Thanks, Rita
> 
> ----
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did'nt see the glare part, mainly the best way is to take the picture at
an angle. my camera has a normal lense over the flash. i found it
does'nt give hot spots, like the camera's with the fresnel lens on it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 11:05:22 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust, was Re: Cutting Front Surface
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:29:44 -0400
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Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/20/99 3:04:15 PM, esavad@home.net writes:
> 
> >maybe the oil your using is weakening it.
> 
> Interesting thought, but I doubt it - I've been using regular old
> garden-variety cutting oil.
> 
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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weak design i guess, i'd complain to the company. write 'em a nasty
letter or something.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 11:10:45 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
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Subject: Re: Another cutter bites the dust
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 13:16:27 -0400
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>>maybe the oil your using is weakening it.

  I had a fletcher plastic handle that cracked...it was the oil.  I had
purchased a commercial 'easy to wash off' lubricant and it damaged the
plastic.  
  Usually I just use a kerosene/light machine oil mix, and have never had a
problem with that..
   Dee
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 11:26:38 1999
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From: Garry & Linda McKenna <mnnve3@kwic.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 12:59:11 -0400
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Linda here - stepping out of long time lurkdom - sure hope you have a 
wonderful time, I wish I were joining you, but many things, not the least 
of which is distance is standing in my way.
I wish to give you a little word of warning.  My daughter camped in PA last 
summer while she was attending a Needleworkers Conference and contracted 
Lime Disease - so a word to the wise.  She was not hiking in the wood as 
she was spending too much time taking classes etc. Just though you'd like 
to know.
L

-----Original Message-----
From:	Witchdoc3@aol.com [SMTP:Witchdoc3@aol.com]
Sent:	Saturday, August 21, 1999 10:48 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	GlassVisions - calling all campers!

Anybody besides me planning on camping out for Glass Visions weekend? If 
so,
where? I'm getting ready to throw a mattress pad and a few clothes and 
stuff
in the back of my van and hit the road. I'm planning to camp out Friday and 
Saturday nights (have to be home Sunday afternoon).

Fancy amenities don't matter, I've been known to overnight by the side of 
the
road (NOTE: I'm *NOT* considering that a viable option this time in light 
of
the recent jailbreaks in the area, never mind that they've caught them all 
in
the last day or two), but if anyone's already made reservations anywhere 
and
wouldn't mind having another bungi nut around for the party, please let me
know so I can plan accordingly.

Other than that....... Look for me in the IGGA booth on Saturday morning
(that's what I get for working for a board member........). Am also 
planning
on being at breakfast on Saturday. See y'all there (that's what I get for
working for a Texan)!


Sparks
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----
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 12:21:27 1999
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From: glasslass2@webtv.net (Val Dvorak)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: campsites
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 14:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.10564.0>
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Hi.
Hope this helps, there is a KOA campground about 15 min. from W/C. The
phone number is 610-2982160. I stayed there a couple of weeks ago. Its
located at exit 14b. On 100N.

You might want to call and make reservations because it only has 122
sites, and they do fill up on weekends. Hope this helps!

Val

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 15:25:48 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Pattern Wizard
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 17:12:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.131235.0>
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Hi all...
I had told you about the Pattern Wizard that I bought. Well, there's a
feature where you can email the owner, Patrick, and send along your pattern.
He'll check it out for whatever the problem is, and either re-draw it or
tell you how to fix it. I just did that with a fireplace screen I'm making,
and he completely redrew it from scratch. I think his software is worth a
peek.
BTW.. I am NOT affiliated with him in any way. Just very satisfied with this
product.

If you're interested, here's his URL: http://sgdesigns.com/
Mary.. making a fireplace (?) screen for sunny Florida!


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 16:48:43 1999
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From: "pj friend" <artglass@waterw.com>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Elizabeth and Lenore working??
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:33:33 -0400
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You mean we could have gotten her and Lenore to work for the day???
Geez no one told me that.  I would have held them hostage for a couple of
days.
And I didn't even offer them a glass of wine. I guess that is where we got
it all wrong.

Uhoh.......can we do that over again???? Like a rerun??? Pleeze??? And I
promise I will shut Paul up for five minutes. <lol>

my best,
pj (who isn't subscribed to bungi because Glenna is vacationing in
Hawaii....hmmm must be doing something wrong.)

Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
Member AIA

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 17:47:34 1999
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X-Path: warner-criv.com!marianne
From: "Marianne Warner" <marianne@warner-criv.com>
To: <Yegnim@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Breakfast at Tiffany's, IMPORTANT INVITE!!!
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 19:58:39 -0400
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Just in case you missed this the first time. . . .
BUNGI AT GLASS VISIONS !!!! IMPORTANT!!! IMPORTANT!!!

Warner-Crivellaro Invites You To
Breakfast with Elisabeth
All Bungians registered to attend Glass Visions are cordially invited to
have breakfast with their friend Elisabeth Roberg on Saturday, August 28
from 7:30-9:00.  It will be held upstairs at W-C.

Please respond by Wednesday, August 25 to:

marianne@warner-criv.com

P.S. You must be pre-registered for Glass Visions.  The registration table
will not be open this early.

Hope to see you there!

Marianne Warner

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 19:48:35 1999
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X-Path: xtra.co.nz!TMacnicol
From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copywrites
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:48:02 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.2482.0>
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HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:

> Hello again,
> Can anyone direct me as to obtaining copywrites for my designs? Do I really
> need to do this through a lawyer, or is there some easier way? I am
> interested in hearing about other peoples experiences with copywrites, having
> them, and not having them. Thanks a lot!

In New Zealand a copyright is automatically given to you if you initial and date
your work.  However if someone copies your design then proving it is a big
issue.  All that is required for them to claim it as an original design is a few
small changes.  If the court was to decide in your favor, all we receive in
compensation is the fee one would have charged for the sale of the design.  SO...
in my occupation, designing house plans it is often not worth the expense to put
the thief through the courts.  But I do put a large message on all my designs
stating that it is protected by copyright and any reproduction or use of my work
is covered by that law.  I also include a sentence to state that any breech of my
copyright will be put into the hands of the court.  Even though I wouldn't.

I hope this helps

     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 20:17:26 1999
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From: RCall10713@cs.com
To: bobdu@prodigy.net, glass@bungi.com, GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 22:54:47 EDT
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Dani,

Now you know why I prefer being called Richard.

All,
I think we should all keep this little episode in mind when making purchase 
decisions.

I truly was going to buy the A B program.. Not anymore. Same goes for the 
rest of their products..My old German mother told me never to give my money 
to someone who doesn't treat me or those I care for, with respect.

Some old Penna. hunters I used to know had a saying "Some days you get the 
bear, some days the bear gets you"

Richard
Glassics Artglass
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 22:17:33 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: Garry & Linda McKenna <mnnve3@kwic.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 21:36:06 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.14366.0>
References: <<1999Aug21.85911.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

> little word of warning.  My daughter camped in PA last 
> summer while she was attending a Needleworkers Conference and contracted 
> Lime Disease - so a word to the wise. 



ACK..this is totally nonglass but do you know where else in the country
this might be a risk? my husband and I are driving over to Kalispell
(Montana) this weekend and camping in our trailer....you also have me
totally worried as our daughter is with her grandfather in MA and I know
that is serious lime disease country. I am calling them tomorrow to get
the scoop on if they are doing anything major outdoorsy....


Liz
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 22:30:37 1999
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From: Tim Byrnes <tbyrnes@iconn.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Camping site
Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 23:57:37 -0400
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Hi to all you campers,
Try this web page: www.koa.com    They have a wonderful kamp ground not
to far from Warners.
Hope to see you all at Glass Visions.
Q.M. Stained Glass Studio
Tim Byrnes


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 21 22:52:24 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: Glass Magic software
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 17:37:01 +1200
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Wayne

Thanks for the offer,  I can e-mail you privately to discuss how we will arrange
things.


Wayne Munro wrote:

> Tina...I am not sure who was looking for Glass Magic as I sometimes hit
> 'delete' before my brain kicks in; however, I have version 2.0 and version
> 3.0 of glass magic. They are good but certainly not worth $137. bucks US!!!
> I will be glad to send them (a copy) to you for the cost of 4 disks (they
> are both 2 disk sets) and postage so you can try it out. Of course, because
> of copyright gunk etc., you MUST purchase your own programs etc. and can no
> way be construed as running a copy!!!??? (wink-wink)
> Let me know......Wayne

--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 05:28:52 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glshorse@ior.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 07:52:47 EDT
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Lyme disease is contracted by certain ticks. I just vacationed in VA and 
where I stayed there were 3 species in the area (of deer ticks) that you 
could contract the disease from. Just go to your local Army-Navy store and 
get insect repellant that contains DEET. Call the campsite ahead of time and 
ask about ticks. Repellants that contain Deet come in percentages. I use the 
29% for the beach, boating, biking, etc. and 100% for deep woods hiking, etc. 
Deet is poisonous, so if you get some be sure to read the labels and use 
properly. It has been a bit chilly here in PA lately - if there is a frost 
for a night or two, your chances of getting ticks drops. 
Stay out of cornfields!

Hope this helps,

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 07:01:36 1999
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From: "Robt. O'Marah" <romarah@northnet.org>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Rita...foil cracking
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 09:34:56 -0500
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Rita,
	My teacher said not to worry that the cracks will fill in when you go to
solder.  But, I have found out that it doesn't always work.  I have yet to
try this but was going to take small v cuts out of the inside of the turn
like you would when cutting cane to bend and see if that doesn't keep the
outside curve from splitting. It should work.  Will let you know when I try
it. Or let me know if you do.


Sue O'Marah
romarah@northnet.org
 "It's so much easier to grow older than wiser."
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 07:39:03 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 08:59:29 -0500
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Precedence: bulk



HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Lyme disease is contracted by certain ticks. I just vacationed in VA and
> where I stayed there were 3 species in the area (of deer ticks) that you
> could contract the disease from. Just go to your local Army-Navy store and
> get insect repellant that contains DEET. Call the campsite ahead of time and
> ask about ticks. Repellants that contain Deet come in percentages. I use the
> 29% for the beach, boating, biking, etc. and 100% for deep woods hiking, etc.
> Deet is poisonous, so if you get some be sure to read the labels and use
> properly. It has been a bit chilly here in PA lately - if there is a frost
> for a night or two, your chances of getting ticks drops.
> Stay out of cornfields!
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Laura
> HiimLaura@aol.com
>

Can any one tell me WHY this post AND MANY others, having NOTHING to do
with glass are appearing on my mail server? I must admit that I have
made the mistake of subscribing to a list having not a whole lot to do
with the ART of stained glass but the craft of stained glass.
Well.....fine but why all of these cutsie-cutsie-kissie-kissie posts?
OK, so why don't I unsub? I have and yes, I did it correctly! Why can't
the sweetie pie, where is so and so and what about the 'tutu' posts be
done PRIVATELY?
David
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 08:31:41 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Rita...foil cracking
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:48:39 -0400
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8/22/99 10:34 AM Robt. O'Marah romarah@northnet.org

Another tip: Start and stop your foil in the middle of the deep inside 
curve. That way it has less distance to stretch! You can also make a 
little patch of foil going *across* the existing foil, razor it off to 
match your original line.

Suzanne
>Rita,
>	My teacher said not to worry that the cracks will fill in when you go to
>solder.  But, I have found out that it doesn't always work.  I have yet to
>try this but was going to take small v cuts out of the inside of the turn
>like you would when cutting cane to bend and see if that doesn't keep the
>outside curve from splitting. It should work.  Will let you know when I try
>it. Or let me know if you do.
>
>
>Sue O'Marah
>romarah@northnet.org
> "It's so much easier to grow older than wiser."
>----
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>


suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 08:44:28 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Rita...foil cracking
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:15:22 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Robt. O'Marah wrote:
> 
> Rita,
>         My teacher said not to worry that the cracks will fill in when you go to
> solder.  But, I have found out that it doesn't always work.  I have yet to
> try this but was going to take small v cuts out of the inside of the turn
> like you would when cutting cane to bend and see if that doesn't keep the
> outside curve from splitting. It should work.  Will let you know when I try
> it. Or let me know if you do.
> 
> Sue O'Marah
> romarah@northnet.org
>  "It's so much easier to grow older than wiser."
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the only problem with that method is that you won't have solder in that
corner, which won't look good. if the foil rips in the corner, a tip
i've seen elsewhere, you fold in foil in the corner cross wise. then
trim the excess with a razor blade. it's mainly for looks.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 09:01:45 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 11:19:24 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
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Charles R. Clark wrote:
> 
> HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Lyme disease is contracted by certain ticks. I just vacationed in VA and
> > where I stayed there were 3 species in the area (of deer ticks) that you
> > could contract the disease from. Just go to your local Army-Navy store and
> > get insect repellant that contains DEET. Call the campsite ahead of time and
> > ask about ticks. Repellants that contain Deet come in percentages. I use the
> > 29% for the beach, boating, biking, etc. and 100% for deep woods hiking, etc.
> > Deet is poisonous, so if you get some be sure to read the labels and use
> > properly. It has been a bit chilly here in PA lately - if there is a frost
> > for a night or two, your chances of getting ticks drops.
> > Stay out of cornfields!
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Laura
> > HiimLaura@aol.com
> >
> 
> Can any one tell me WHY this post AND MANY others, having NOTHING to do
> with glass are appearing on my mail server? I must admit that I have
> made the mistake of subscribing to a list having not a whole lot to do
> with the ART of stained glass but the craft of stained glass.
> Well.....fine but why all of these cutsie-cutsie-kissie-kissie posts?
> OK, so why don't I unsub? I have and yes, I did it correctly! Why can't
> the sweetie pie, where is so and so and what about the 'tutu' posts be
> done PRIVATELY?
> David
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


alot of it is done privatly. however there are over 400 people on bungi,
and there's a good chance that a non stained glass question can be
answered. it's easier to ask a room full of friends, then trying to
figure out which newsgroup to use.

if someone has a question or comment about stained glass. people will
talk about that.  there can be a 10 way conversation, we don't have to
take turns talking. most of the non sg mail - there is'nt alot. but in
order to talk about stained glass, someone has to talk about stained
glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 09:31:05 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: *NG* creative stimulation for your brain
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 10:53:38 -0500
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You can delete now, David.

I hope the rest of you enjoy.  I've run across several articles
regarding left brain/right brain functions.  According to what
Ive recently read...this should help stimulate our creative side. 

Oh...and tapping your forehead just about your eyebrows stimulates the
frontal lobe, where our logical functions take place.  I need to
remember this! ;o)


http://members.aol.com/wmjbkr/confections.html
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 10:32:24 1999
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Subject: Re: *NG* creative stimulation for your brain
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 13:28:17 -0400
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>http://members.aol.com/wmjbkr/confections.html
>-- 
>Suzanne
>
Now that was FUN...I'm all worked up from the colors now...off computer and
into my studio.  Thanks for the eye candy!
Dee
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 12:03:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:RCall10713@cs.com" <RCall10713@cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: CAD PROGRAM
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:21:33 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:RCall10713@cs.com
>
I truly was going to buy the A B program.. Not anymore. Same goes for the=
 =

rest of their products..My old German mother told me never to give my mon=
ey

to someone who doesn't treat me or those I care for, with respect.
<

I'm old-fashioned enough to agree with this, too.... we
can all have differences of opinions, and all of us have
problems/challenges to deal with in our personal and
private lives.... but, to deal with anyone in an abusive
and disrespectful way, whether they're a stranger or
a family member, is always uncalled for... I also will not
do business with someone who has treated someone
close to me badly.  A good thing to remember if you're
in business!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 12:20:36 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Rita...foil cracking
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 14:40:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug22.104036.0>
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Message text written by "suzy@comcat.com"
>
Another tip: Start and stop your foil in the middle of the deep inside =

curve. That way it has less distance to stretch! You can also make a =

little patch of foil going *across* the existing foil, razor it off to =

match your original line.
<
If you are having this much trouble with foiling, I
would suggest your inside curves are way too deep
to be stable in the long run!  You'll be getting stress
fractures in a few years.  Try designing your window
so your inside cuts are not so radical... will be
lots easier to foil, too.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 13:41:37 1999
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From: LByrne21@aol.com
To: atwoods@aisl.bc.ca, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Be Free! (was: Re: E tour survivor! ;o))
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 15:55:09 EDT
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Thank you, thank you, thank you, Tim, for the very simple, but beautiful 
explaination of cutting "freehand".  Since most of the  stained glass I do, 
are original ideas, this one of yours, really cuts down on steps necessary to 
completion.  Never though of this method before.   Lavergne
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 14:52:02 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: glass@bungi.com, Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 13:05:53 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.6553.0>
References: <<1999Aug22.71924.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

> alot of it is done privatly. however there are over 400 people on bungi,
> and there's a good chance that a non stained glass question can be
> answered. it's easier to ask a room full of friends, then trying to
> figure out which newsgroup to use.
> 
> if someone has a question or comment about stained glass. people will
> talk about that.  there can be a 10 way conversation, we don't have to
> take turns talking. most of the non sg mail - there is'nt alot. but in
> order to talk about stained glass, someone has to talk about stained
> glass.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
I think the whole concern about lyme disease grew out of  a discussion
of people camping for glass visions along with a warning that those
camping in that area (presumably for this glass related event) be
careful as someone contracted lyme disease in that exact area. I suppose
I COULD have privately asked my question as I am not attending glass
visions so therefore I "suppose" my question was completely tangential. 


Liz
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 22:39:44 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sun Aug 22 21:59:35 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.193735.0>
References: <<1999Aug22.35929.0>>
Organization: taylor'd Expressions
Precedence: bulk

i am so tired pf everyone going off on everyone....why can't all you guys be
nice kids and get along?  how can anyone enjoy this list (glass or non
glass) when every time a message is sent, someone is flaming them?
if you don't like this list, go away...but go away privately...just go away!
this no reason to demean and put down a bunch of people, if you cannot and
do not want to deal with the list. bye-bye  and i truly mean  bye-bye
i own a glass list, and you people who are complaining all the time need to
stop whining and get over it!  have a good time. read your mail and go on,
stop with the complaining
pleaz
anyone else agree?

debbie

taylor'd Expressions
"Your complete art glass supply source."
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
1-888-488-9616 (toll free)

----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R. Clark <dwood@sky.net>
To: <HiimLaura@aol.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!


>
>
> HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Lyme disease is contracted by certain ticks. I just vacationed in VA and
> > where I stayed there were 3 species in the area (of deer ticks) that you
> > could contract the disease from. Just go to your local Army-Navy store
and
> > get insect repellant that contains DEET. Call the campsite ahead of time
and
> > ask about ticks. Repellants that contain Deet come in percentages. I use
the
> > 29% for the beach, boating, biking, etc. and 100% for deep woods hiking,
etc.
> > Deet is poisonous, so if you get some be sure to read the labels and use
> > properly. It has been a bit chilly here in PA lately - if there is a
frost
> > for a night or two, your chances of getting ticks drops.
> > Stay out of cornfields!
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Laura
> > HiimLaura@aol.com
> >
>
> Can any one tell me WHY this post AND MANY others, having NOTHING to do
> with glass are appearing on my mail server? I must admit that I have
> made the mistake of subscribing to a list having not a whole lot to do
> with the ART of stained glass but the craft of stained glass.
> Well.....fine but why all of these cutsie-cutsie-kissie-kissie posts?
> OK, so why don't I unsub? I have and yes, I did it correctly! Why can't
> the sweetie pie, where is so and so and what about the 'tutu' posts be
> done PRIVATELY?
> David
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 22 23:40:07 1999
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X-Path: tir.com!jazzykid
From: "jazzykid" <jazzykid@tir.com>
To: <daver!one.net!kleeman@eachan.tir.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:54:31 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug21.215431.0>
Precedence: bulk

Bravo!!!!
-----Original Message-----
From: daver!one.net!kleeman <daver!one.net!kleeman>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!


>i am so tired pf everyone going off on everyone....why can't all you guys
be
>nice kids and get along?  how can anyone enjoy this list (glass or non
>glass) when every time a message is sent, someone is flaming them?
>if you don't like this list, go away...but go away privately...just go
away!
>this no reason to demean and put down a bunch of people, if you cannot and
>do not want to deal with the list. bye-bye  and i truly mean  bye-bye
>i own a glass list, and you people who are complaining all the time need to
>stop whining and get over it!  have a good time. read your mail and go on,
>stop with the complaining
>pleaz
>anyone else agree?
>
>debbie
>
>taylor'd Expressions
>"Your complete art glass supply source."
>kleeman@one.net
>http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
>1-888-488-9616 (toll free)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Charles R. Clark <dwood@sky.net>
>To: <HiimLaura@aol.com>
>Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 9:59 AM
>Subject: Re: GlassVisions - calling all campers!
>
>
>>
>>
>> HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
>> >
>> > Lyme disease is contracted by certain ticks. I just vacationed in VA
and
>> > where I stayed there were 3 species in the area (of deer ticks) that
you
>> > could contract the disease from. Just go to your local Army-Navy store
>and
>> > get insect repellant that contains DEET. Call the campsite ahead of
time
>and
>> > ask about ticks. Repellants that contain Deet come in percentages. I
use
>the
>> > 29% for the beach, boating, biking, etc. and 100% for deep woods
hiking,
>etc.
>> > Deet is poisonous, so if you get some be sure to read the labels and
use
>> > properly. It has been a bit chilly here in PA lately - if there is a
>frost
>> > for a night or two, your chances of getting ticks drops.
>> > Stay out of cornfields!
>> >
>> > Hope this helps,
>> >
>> > Laura
>> > HiimLaura@aol.com
>> >
>>
>> Can any one tell me WHY this post AND MANY others, having NOTHING to do
>> with glass are appearing on my mail server? I must admit that I have
>> made the mistake of subscribing to a list having not a whole lot to do
>> with the ART of stained glass but the craft of stained glass.
>> Well.....fine but why all of these cutsie-cutsie-kissie-kissie posts?
>> OK, so why don't I unsub? I have and yes, I did it correctly! Why can't
>> the sweetie pie, where is so and so and what about the 'tutu' posts be
>> done PRIVATELY?
>> David
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 01:12:44 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: GlassVisions - calling all campers
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:31:28 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.93128.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have to agree. Can't we all be just a little less snappy? Show just a tad
more patience? We are all just people and a list is not a text book.

Bungi seems to have quite a testy atmosphere now and it is very unpleasant.

BtB

> i am so tired pf everyone going off on everyone....why can't all you guys
be
> nice kids and get along?  how can anyone enjoy this list (glass or non
> glass) when every time a message is sent, someone is flaming them?
> if you don't like this list, go away...but go away privately...just go
away!
> this no reason to demean and put down a bunch of people, if you cannot and
> do not want to deal with the list. bye-bye  and i truly mean  bye-bye
> i own a glass list, and you people who are complaining all the time need
to
> stop whining and get over it!  have a good time. read your mail and go on,
> stop with the complaining
> pleaz
> anyone else agree?
>
> debbie
>



----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 04:40:41 1999
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From: CncptThnkr@aol.com
To: embee@mediaone.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:14:16 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.111416.0>
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 8/21/99 6:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
embee@mediaone.net writes:

> a fireplace screen I'm making,

Hey Mary and all,

What kind of hardware would you use for a fireplace screen?  Is this a flat 
panel or a "tri fold" hinged panel?  How will it be supported and braced?  
Ever since I saw the pricey one in a catalog a few years ago I've thought of 
making one.    

Thanks,

IA
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 05:11:14 1999
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X-Path: bham.ac.uk!b.s.jones
From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: test my re-subscribe after vaction please ignore
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:33:59 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.133359.0>
Precedence: bulk

just testing


Brandon S. Jones
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 05:46:50 1999
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X-Path: MIT.EDU!mmancuso
From: marc mancuso <mmancuso@MIT.EDU>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: bungi atmosphere
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 08:08:26 -0400
Message-ID: <v03020901b3e6e8c88f10@[18.164.0.61]>
References: <<1999Aug23.93128.0>>
Precedence: bulk

>Bungi seems to have quite a testy atmosphere now and it is very unpleasant.

Tsk, tsk. Must be poor ventilation.... :) But don't worry. All you have to
do is open a door and let nature do the rest.


Living on Earth is expensive, but it does include a free trip around the sun.


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 06:46:23 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <CncptThnkr@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 07:38:43 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.33843.0>
References: <<4f733cf6.24f28708@aol.com>>
Precedence: bulk


>
> What kind of hardware would you use for a fireplace screen?

Good morning all...

I had originally planned on making it tryptych style, using hinge rods, but
now I am debating another idea. I was going to ask everyone's opinion
anyway, so here goes.

I have two ideas:
1. What if I made it so that it had a gentle convex curve? That way, I could
make a base for it, sort of like one would do for a standing figurine. Of
course, I could just make it flat and still make that base, but I thought
for a piece that large, it might need the curve.

2. I also thought of hanging it with fishing line from underneath the
mantle. As I typed that sentence, I just talked myself out of it, as that
would be pretty tacky.

I would actually prefer to make it a solid piece, rather than the tryptych,
so any ideas are more than welcome. The designs I made can go either way.

Mary


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 09:17:39 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Abbie2dh20
From: Abbie2dh20@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Hi Group,NG, System crashed!!!!! 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:46:41 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.154641.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi bungi...My computor was hit by lightning and this address is 
temporary....I lost all of my addresses and files..I am.waiting on new 
recovery cd to re-load system....the original is damaged...I will not 
download bungi again until I get  system up and running again.. T Suzanne , 
if you have time e-mail  me please....take care everybody...Abbie In VA....
----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 10:47:23 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:24:40 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.22440.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have two ideas:
1. What if I made it so that it had a gentle convex curve? That way, I could
make a base for it, sort of like one would do for a standing figurine. Of
course, I could just make it flat and still make that base, but I thought
for a piece that large, it might need the curve.

COMMENT Curving the screen is a nice idea. Unless you are going to bend
glass, it would be best if your design does not have pieces that are longer
than about four inches in the horizontal plane. Vertical measurement of
pieces can be as much as you like. You can easily make the form by bending a
piece of 1/4" plywood and nailing it between two battens on the work bench.

2. I also thought of hanging it with fishing line from underneath the
mantle. As I typed that sentence, I just talked myself out of it, as that
would be pretty tacky.

COMMENT The fish line might well look tacked but a couple of nice brass or
iron chains might look great. Sometimes using a bold approach to an awkward
problem is a good way to go.

Bob


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 11:06:22 1999
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From: RCall10713@cs.com
To: embee@mediaone.net, CncptThnkr@aol.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:58:48 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.165848.0>
Precedence: bulk

Mary,

A fireplace screen is one of those things I've also wanted to do, but for the 
lack of time, would have tried one, by now.

I saw a simplw screen at a home center, which had a mitered iron, (But could 
be lead, or Zinc, or Copper frame, and at the bottom, had two very simple 
feet, running perpendicular to the frame. Something like this would seem tto 
do the job, while not detracting from the glass.

FWIW

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, CA.
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 11:16:50 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
Subject: Re: Gotta Question Mosaics
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:17:36 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.191736.0>
References: <<1999Aug20.105118.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

A suggestion has come to mind.

Why not use a decorative garden stone mould, coat it with mould release,
and pour in epoxy resin, or a fibre glass composition.  Let it cure.
Then use it as the base for the mosaic.  It would be water proof,
probably frost proof, and most importantly, it would not add much in the
way of weight to the whole project.

Just an idea

Steve


In message <1999Aug20.105118.0@?>, Pamela Burns-Tappan
<Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com> writes
>Alabama Susan wrote:
>
>Hey all you folks out in bungi land!
>
>I've been thinking about doing a mosaic picture to hang outside on the
>brick
>of our house. It will be seen from the patio area, an area which has no
>roof.
>Is this possible? Although it would have to endure rain/sun, I would
>bring it
>inside during the winter. I was wondering what would be the best choice
>for
>the backing..Marine plywood perhaps? Also, what about the glue to hold
>the
>glass on. I use a glue called weld-bond to do my stepping stones with.
>Would
>this be okay for this, or should I use some kind of mastic?
>
>I would appreciate your input so greatly!!
>
>
>Here is what I suggest and no I'm still not receiving mail, just going
>over the archives :)
>
>Apply the mosaic to 1/8 inch plywood, marine grade is the best to use.
>Use cement based tile adhesive or you can use waterproof glue, (Red
>Devil, Liquid nails clear etc.) to apply the tiles, glass, whatever to
>the board. Be sure everything is dry before you apply the grout. Also,
>don't mix the grout too runny or you will have shrinkage and potential
>cracking of the grout. If you use weld bond that would be fine with this
>project too. Sounds to me like that would have the same properties at
>the above adhesives.
>
>If you want to screw the finished project into the wall just make sure
>you insert say some straws into the project before grout is dry. That
>way you can always remove the project at a later date without too much
>trouble.
>
>I think I read somewhere in the archives that someone wanted to do a
>back splash in this manner. Do the splash the same way you would the
>above project. I would also recommend you seal the grout after it is all
>dry.
>
>Pam
>
>--
>
>Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Moswood Mountain Ltd.
>http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com
>
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 11:24:11 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Different Tree
Date: Mon Aug 23 10:03:28 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug24.74128.0>
References: <<37BEF2DC.EA2F83B4@banet.net>>
Organization: taylor'd Expressions
Precedence: bulk

for everyone that wants the christmas tree pattern....i have not
forgotten...gary is putting it one the scanner and he is not feeling well,
so we should have it to you guys by tomorrow
sorry for the delay

and please hold all flaming until the end of the show, thank you, thank you
very much

debbie has left the building

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616
----- Original Message -----
From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: <glass@intrastar.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 1999 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: Different Tree


> Hi Debbie,
> It would be wonderful if you could E-mail a copy  to me.
> I have been looking for the book, but have not found it yet.
> Thanks again.I appreciate your kindness so much.
> Goldpaws aka Gae Manning
>
>
> Debbie Taylor wrote:
> >
> > i think the one you are talking about is the one i mentioned...i made it
a
> > couple years ago...
> > the pattern is in a book called "christmas in stained glass II" by
carolyn
> > kyle
> >
> > the book is out of print. i don't know if you can find a copy of it...i
can
> > send you a copy of it (snail mail or e-mail) it is really a neat tree
> > thanx
> > ps. if you want me to scan it and send it, i can't until
tomorrow...don't
> > have a scanner here at the studio, have to do it from home
> > debbie
> >
> > debbie taylor
> > kleeman@one.net
> > http://www.taylordexpressions.com
> > your complete stained glass supply source
> > 1-888-488-9616
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
> > To: glastar <glass@intrastar.net>
> > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 5:36 PM
> > Subject: Different Tree
> >
> > > Hello All,
> > > Thanks for the  helpful ideas and patterns.
> > > I did not explain the tree right. I want to make one that would have a
> > > light inside it. The tree would surround the light. I had seen an
IMPORT
> > > one.The idea was good, but that was all. I am sure it would beautiful
> > > made with good glass.
> > > Am I making sense at all?
> > > TIA
> > > Goldpaws
> > >
>

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 11:48:36 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 10:59:53 -0700
Message-ID: <199908231759.KAA04227@mimas.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>I have two ideas:
>1. What if I made it so that it had a gentle convex curve? That way, I could
>make a base for it, sort of like one would do for a standing figurine. Of
>course, I could just make it flat and still make that base, but I thought
>for a piece that large, it might need the curve.
>
>COMMENT Curving the screen is a nice idea. Unless you are going to bend
>glass, it would be best if your design does not have pieces that are longer
>than about four inches in the horizontal plane. Vertical measurement of
>pieces can be as much as you like. You can easily make the form by bending a
>piece of 1/4" plywood and nailing it between two battens on the work bench.
>
>2. I also thought of hanging it with fishing line from underneath the
>mantle. As I typed that sentence, I just talked myself out of it, as that
>would be pretty tacky.

Fishing line will fail over time...use chain instead

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 12:49:34 1999
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X-Path: westinghouse.com!draggj
From: "Drag, Gloria J." <draggj@westinghouse.com>
To: 'Bungi List' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: RE: Different Tree
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:48:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.104819.0>
Precedence: bulk

> Deb,
>  would you be kind enough to e-mail me the pattern also.. or if my order
> has not been shipped yet, maybe just throw a paper copy in the box. and,
> hoping Gary is feeling better soon.
> thanks
> Gloria 
> 
> 	----------
> 	From:
> daver!one.net!kleeman@jam.wec.net[SMTP:daver!one.net!kleeman@jam.wec.net]
> 	Sent: 	Monday, August 23, 1999 6:03 AM
> 	To: 	glass@bungi.com
> 	Subject: 	Re: Different Tree
> 
> 	for everyone that wants the christmas tree pattern....i have not
> 	forgotten...gary is putting it one the scanner and he is not feeling
> well,
> 	so we should have it to you guys by tomorrow
> 	sorry for the delay
> 
> 	and please hold all flaming until the end of the show, thank you,
> thank you
> 	very much
> 
> 	debbie has left the building
> 
> 	debbie taylor
> 	kleeman@one.net
> 	http://www.taylordexpressions.com
> 	your complete stained glass supply source
> 	1-888-488-9616
> 	----- Original Message -----
> 	From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
> 	To: <glass@intrastar.net>
> 	Sent: Saturday, August 21, 1999 2:41 PM
> 	Subject: Re: Different Tree
> 
> 
> 	> Hi Debbie,
> 	> It would be wonderful if you could E-mail a copy  to me.
> 	> I have been looking for the book, but have not found it yet.
> 	> Thanks again.I appreciate your kindness so much.
> 	> Goldpaws aka Gae Manning
> 	>
> 	>
> 	> Debbie Taylor wrote:
> 	> >
> 	> > i think the one you are talking about is the one i mentioned...i
> made it
> 	a
> 	> > couple years ago...
> 	> > the pattern is in a book called "christmas in stained glass II"
> by
> 	carolyn
> 	> > kyle
> 	> >
> 	> > the book is out of print. i don't know if you can find a copy of
> it...i
> 	can
> 	> > send you a copy of it (snail mail or e-mail) it is really a neat
> tree
> 	> > thanx
> 	> > ps. if you want me to scan it and send it, i can't until
> 	tomorrow...don't
> 	> > have a scanner here at the studio, have to do it from home
> 	> > debbie
> 	> >
> 	> > debbie taylor
> 	> > kleeman@one.net
> 	> > http://www.taylordexpressions.com
> 	> > your complete stained glass supply source
> 	> > 1-888-488-9616
> 	> > ----- Original Message -----
> 	> > From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
> 	> > To: glastar <glass@intrastar.net>
> 	> > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 5:36 PM
> 	> > Subject: Different Tree
> 	> >
> 	> > > Hello All,
> 	> > > Thanks for the  helpful ideas and patterns.
> 	> > > I did not explain the tree right. I want to make one that
> would have a
> 	> > > light inside it. The tree would surround the light. I had seen
> an
> 	IMPORT
> 	> > > one.The idea was good, but that was all. I am sure it would
> beautiful
> 	> > > made with good glass.
> 	> > > Am I making sense at all?
> 	> > > TIA
> 	> > > Goldpaws
> 	> > >
> 	>
> 
> 	----
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> 	Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> 
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 14:50:06 1999
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From: CncptThnkr@aol.com
To: RCall10713@cs.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:20:11 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.212011.0>
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 8/23/99 2:07:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
RCall10713@cs.com writes:

> I saw a simplw screen at a home center, which had a mitered iron, (But 
could 
>  be lead, or Zinc, or Copper frame, and at the bottom, had two very simple 
>  feet, running perpendicular to the frame. Something like this would seem 
tto 
> 
>  do the job, while not detracting from the glass.
>  
Hey Richard and all,

I had the same idea but wondered about the weight of the glass and balance of 
the entire panel.  

My other thoughts are to contact an art metal person and ask them about 
making a frame that the glass could be inserted into or consider if the glass 
can be attached to the current glass doors.  I wonder if there would be a 
problem with heat causing glass to crack.  

IA   
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 15:50:57 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <CncptThnkr@aol.com>, <RCall10713@cs.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:12:11 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.141211.0>
References: <<1999Aug23.212011.0>>
Precedence: bulk


ask them about
> making a frame that the glass could be inserted into or consider if the
glass
> can be attached to the current glass doors.  I wonder if there would be a
> problem with heat causing glass to crack.
>
>

I am making this screen to be removable when the fireplace is actually used
(what.. maybe once a year in Florida? ). I don't think I would feel safe
using it while a fire was actually burning. Maybe some of the scientific
people on this list can address that issue, but I can't imagine that it
would be tempered to withstand that kind of heat. I also wonder what the
heat would do to the solder and patina.

I like the idea, though, of finding a metal frame of some sort in which to
insert the finished glass piece. Maybe a wrought iron free-standing thingy??
Shoot.. I don't know, but this idea is growing by the responses received!
Thanks to everyone for such good suggestions and food for thought!
Mary


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 16:18:09 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:43:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.124325.0>
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For the sake of discussing glass...
Im not only asking my guru (who I've already been discussing this
privately with) but putting it to the list.  

I also happen to know that I am not the only copperfoil person new to
lead.  So, obviously there are others here that can benefit from
anything I can learn from this as well.

I just finished (well I will when I assimilate all the info) a
copperfoil panel.  I want to use U lead came around the panel.

Ive finished soldering and have patina'd the panel.  ok...
So.. now...

wax the patina'd copperfoiled area?  Then add the U lead, putty and use
whiting?  Let the lead darken via that route?  Will that look good with
my black patina?

What about when I do a panel that some of the innerds so to to speak are
both lead and copperfoiled?  Better to *not* use patina???
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 16:49:22 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:CncptThnkr@aol.com" <CncptThnkr@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:07:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.15724.0>
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Message text written by INTERNET:CncptThnkr@aol.com
>I wonder if there would be a =

problem with heat causing glass to crack.  =

<

Yup, would never sell a glass fireplace screen as =

anything except a "summer screen" to use without
a fire.  Also, most blacksmiths would be able
to make an iron frame on commission.  =


Hope that helps.

Best regards,

DAni Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 17:19:48 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen 
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 17:24:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.112452.0>
References: <<1999Aug23.141211.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I recently ordered a back issue of Glass Craftsman because of an article on
designing a glass fireplace screen. It's in the June/July 1996 issue:

http://www.glasscraftsman.com/backissues/backissues.htm#AS97

and I believe it talks about the screen being in place in front of a roaring
fire. Also, it's a tri-fold type design. Good info.

Shari in SLC

I'm not offended by all the dumb blonde jokes because I know I'm not dumb
... and I also know that I'm not blonde.  -Dolly Parton-



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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 17:42:31 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:39:54 -0400
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>
wax the patina'd copperfoiled area?  Then add the U lead, putty and use
whiting?  Let the lead darken via that route?  Will that look good with
my black patina?<

When we build a copperfoil window, we do it
much as we would a lead window.  Put down
your wood stops and your two border lead cames
(we always use H-channel on the borders since
the panels are either installed or framed in wood),
then lay out your foiled pieces and finish with
the remaining two pieces of lead held in place
with glass/leadbits/horseshoe nails.  Then solder
everything making sure your solder lines adjoin
to the perimeter lead cames.  Because we often
use a single or double glass border that is leaded
with the interior design in copperfoil, there is more
lead channel to cement.... which we do and that
automatically patinas the copperfoil sections... =

all looks very integrated.  With just a border lead
came, I would be inclined to just patina and buff
(we don't wax any of our windows) the copperfoil
and leave the lead alone.  Remember though, =

that most of the perimeter lead would be hidden
in our windows.

We prefer not to use patina on the lead as it
contributes to more rapid deterioration of the came.

Did it make sense??

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 18:29:10 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 99 06:31:54 
Message-ID: <199908240038.SAA23719@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne,

I've done this for years.. I finish soldering the panel, and clean it with alcohol, then wrap 
the lead (after I've pulled it) and solder at all the joins. I then add the hangers, since 
they must be soldered on (if it was to be put in a frame, I'd leave this step out). THEN I 
clean it with CJ's (or Giraffe Joos if that's what you use, or Dawn, or whatever) well, 
patina the panel, clean it again with CJ's, then wax it with KemoPro Finishing Compound 
and voila!
Candy

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 21:17:13 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 22:46:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug23.174657.0>
References: <<1999Aug23.111416.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I have seen many 'antique' fireplace screens at junk places and flea markets.
It seems to me one could 'overlay' a glass design to the screen and thus take
advantage of the small wire grid to avoid 'pops' that might fly out at too high
a rate of speed.
Also, never put a glass fireplace screen in front of a new blazing fire. Set it
up a distance from a well established gentle fire.

judy n

CncptThnkr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/21/99 6:26:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> embee@mediaone.net writes:
>
> > a fireplace screen I'm making,
>
> Hey Mary and all,
>
> What kind of hardware would you use for a fireplace screen?  Is this a flat
> panel or a "tri fold" hinged panel?  How will it be supported and braced?
> Ever since I saw the pricey one in a catalog a few years ago I've thought of
> making one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> IA
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 22:21:35 1999
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From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Sticking to Glass
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:48:43 PDT
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Hi,

Back from Maui,....trip was great.  I apologize for not getting to
the subscriptions for a couple days.
I just want to remind you all to please try stick with the
glass topics.

Mahalo (thank you)


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 23 22:50:23 1999
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From: "Michele Spruill" <mrsdesigns@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 20:15:31 PDT
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>I've done this for years.. I finish soldering the panel, and clean it with 
>alcohol, then wrap
>the lead (after I've pulled it) and solder at all the joins. I then add the 
>hangers, since
>they must be soldered on (if it was to be put in a frame, I'd leave this 
>step out).
>

I, too, was taught to complete a copper foil panel with a soldered U lead as 
a frame.  Even though it has worked fairly well for my purposes, I have come 
to doubt that I have been doing it the best way.  (i.e. cementing the lead 
would be better.) About a month ago there was some discussion about this, 
and the consensus was that it should be cemented except for the smallest of 
items, like a suncatcher.

I have always used patina on both, but now would like to know how badly or 
not it weakens the lead...

Michele


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 02:50:11 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:06:56 +1200
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Precedence: bulk

Candy Thurman wrote:

> THEN I clean it with CJ's (or Giraffe Joos if that's what you use, or Dawn, or whatever) well,
> patina the panel, clean it again with CJ's, then wax it with KemoPro Finishing Compound and
> voila!

Please excuse my ignorance but I have never heard of waxing (polishing?) the panel what is the
purpose? is the product a was or a blend of whiting and other ingrediants?  The cleaners the are
mentioned above are new to me also.  Are they specific products for sg or standard glass
cleaners?

When I have finished a panel I rub on stove blackon the lead, let it dry, then whiting and polish
it like I was shining a shoe. Am I missing a step or just some US products?


--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 05:20:46 1999
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Subject: Dalle de verre?
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 06:21:10 -0400
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Hi!  New to list but an oldtimer in glass (neon)--and interested in
dalle de verre technique---I've used hydrocal/ultral for imbedding neon
in the past--works fine--but need info on dalle de verre ---found Blenko
and will get the glass from them--but is there a book or pamphlet on how
to do it w.cement or fiberglass?  Or better yet, is there someone out
there (near Cape Cod) who's doing it and wants a studio visitor?

Best wishes,
Joseph

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Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:44:05 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug24.14445.0>
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In a message dated 8/23/99 10:52:10 PM, embee@mediaone.net writes:

>I am making this screen to be removable when the fireplace is actually
>used (what.. maybe once a year in Florida? ).

That's the way they're most commonly used, the idea being to block drafts 
up/down the fireplace when it's not in use and thus keep the fine ash dust 
from drifting into the room and getting all over things when it's dry, and 
keep out the "old wet ashes" smell when it rains, and to have something 
beautiful to look at rather than just an empty fireplace.

Last year Christie built a triptych-style fireplace screen and framed it in 
stained "American Oak." She used regular small brass hinges from the local 
hardware store to connect the panels. It's one of my (many) favorite pieces 
she's made - all Yough glass, a southwestern desert scene with a standing 
Native American woman in flowing robe and long hair in the center panel. 
Drop-dead gorgeous!


Sparks
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:43:59 EDT
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In a message dated 8/23/99 11:19:32 PM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:

>What about when I do a panel that some of the innerds so to to speak are
>both lead and copperfoiled?  Better to *not* use patina???

My first instinct would be to go ahead and black patina the copper foil areas 
and use a lot of carbon black when you cement the lead.

You can also get patina that works on both copper foil and lead. The 
Whittemore-Durgin catalog says it contains nitric acid and selenium oxide and 
warns that it "will remove fired-on paints and stains from medallions, 
stained glass church-type windows, etc. Use with extreme care when darkening 
foil around such projects." I would add that it will do a number on skin too 
- gloves are a must!


Sparks
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Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
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In a message dated 8/24/99 9:51:13 AM, TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz writes:

>Please excuse my ignorance but I have never heard of waxing (polishing?)
>the panel what is the purpose?

Same general idea as waxing your car (in fact, glass polish is rather similar 
to liquid car wax) - gets rid of surface oxidation (which builds up pretty 
fast on fresh solder and can turn it chalky white, and also turns copper 
patina yucky green), buffs out microscopic scratches, makes everything bright 
and shiny.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 10:58:09 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: christmas tree pattern-only partly glass (just the pattern)>BG<
Date: Tue Aug 24 10:36:48 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.81448.0>
Organization: taylor'd Expressions
Precedence: bulk

okay, i have sent out the pattern -- if you don't get yours in the next few
hours, e-mail me kleeman@one.net    and i will send it to you
thanx

debbie

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616

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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:05:31 -0600
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References: <<1999Aug24.14445.0>>
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>triptych-style fireplace screen

Please forgive my ignorance but what is triptych-style?

Shari



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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 12:56:00 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com" <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:57:48 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
>Same general idea as waxing your car<

I would not recommend this on a large, installed
panel.  Would not want to deal with the yellowing
of the wax over time if the wax is on the glass,too.
Remember those old linoleleum floors.....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:57:37 -0400
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Message text written by Tina Booth
>
When I have finished a panel I rub on stove blackon the lead, let it dry,=

then whiting and polish
it like I was shining a shoe. Am I missing a step or just some US product=
s?
<

Are you cementing the window, Tina?  That usually blackens =

the lead in the process and certainly, the cementing is fundamental
to the structural integrity of a lead panel.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 13:24:45 1999
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Hi All,
Sorry for the nonglass message, but I received a nice note from a
listmember --Patrick Kelly. I meant to answer it but accidently deleted
it, I think. Anyone have it....or patrick are you lurking?

Sara
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 13:31:35 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dalle de verre?
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:57:40 -0400
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A colleague of ours, Vince O'Brien, wrote
a stained glass book which also covers the
dalle de verre procedure.  It's out-of-print
but can still be acquired through a used-book
search.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com" <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:57:46 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
>
You can also get patina that works on both copper foil and lead. The =

Whittemore-Durgin catalog says it contains nitric acid and selenium oxide=

and =

warns that it "will remove fired-on paints and stains from medallions, =

stained glass church-type windows, etc. Use with extreme care when
darkening =

foil around such projects." I would add that it will do a number on skin
too =

- gloves are a must!

It will also facilitate the deterioration of the lead.... which
might be okay if you're trying to drum up some re-leading
business down the road!  Forget I said that.  One of =

the marvelous parts of this job is being able to tell your
customer the window will hold up for at least fifty years,
probably close to one hundred, before they need to call
you again.  To date, the old techniques still work the
best.  Remember though, it has been shown that
Portland cement and plaster in the cement is not good
and this is a practice that was touted through most
of this century.  Make sure your cement formula
contains neither.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
<

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 13:55:56 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'Shari' <shigbee@mtcon.net>, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:24:31 -0400
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BEEE66.4A865006
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

A triptych is three separate panels that have been joined together to form
one pig panel.
Usually they have a common theme between them.

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Shari [mailto:shigbee@mtcon.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:06 PM
To: Bungi
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen


>triptych-style fireplace screen

Please forgive my ignorance but what is triptych-style?

Shari




------_=_NextPart_001_01BEEE66.4A865006
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<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META NAME="Generator" CONTENT="MS Exchange Server version 5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: glass fireplace screen</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>A triptych is three separate panels that have been joined together to form one pig panel.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Usually they have a common theme between them.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>From: Shari [<A HREF="mailto:shigbee@mtcon.net">mailto:shigbee@mtcon.net</A>]</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 12:06 PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>To: Bungi</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=2>Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>&gt;triptych-style fireplace screen</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Please forgive my ignorance but what is triptych-style?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=2>Shari</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>

</BODY>
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:57:54 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug24.105754.0>
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Message text written by Tina Booth
>Please excuse my ignorance but I have never heard of waxing (polishing?)=

the panel<

This is a process used mostly for copper foil and
on small pieces.... I would not recommend waxing
a church window, for example, as the old tried-and-
true-and-dirty method works just fine.  =


Best,

Dani Greer
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:29:32 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug24.122932.0>
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-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Dani Greer, GreerStudios
To:     "Glass Giraffe", INTERNET:glassgiraffe@earthlink.net
        =

CC:     "Dani Greer", GreerStudios
        =

Date:   8/24/99 11:57 AM

RE:     RE: glass fireplace screen

We had a colleague that made sandblasted
fireplace screens in wrought iron stands....
sold them like hotcakes in Santa Fe.  She
was never very concerned about folks using
them with a roaring fire.... until one of her clients
called in a fury ready to sue because they had
a cocktail party, the fire was a-going, the =

fireplace screen looked beautiful, someone
spilled a drink on the screen and it exploded
into a thousand shards.  Miraculously, no one
was hurt... thus was born the "summer screen".

Best regards,

Dani Greer (who wouldn't risk her business and reputation....)
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 15:03:40 1999
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Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 17:15:31 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug24.211531.0>
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On a recent trip to Cape Cod, we purchased a medium  sized panel at a SG shop in Provincetown.  The artist/owner polished the window with Pledge. After gently but thoroughly cleaning the shop dust and tarnish with some superfine steel wool and soap, she sprayed Pledge into a paper towel and then squeezed "pure" wax through the towel.  She then applied the wax and buffed the panel.  So far, it has retained a very nice gleam over the past three weeks.  
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Subject: Re: cement formula
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--------------EEB97CB51D2CCB1BE514A8B9
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> Dani Greer wrote:
>
> Remember though, it has been shown that
> Portland cement and plaster in the cement is not good
> and this is a practice that was touted through most
> of this century.  Make sure your cement formula
> contains neither.
>

The cement formula that I have been using (which my retailer has been
selling in a premixed powder form) is as follows:

4 parts whiting
2 parts plaster
1 1/2 parts cement
1/4 part lamp black
1 part boiled linseed oil
1 1/2 parts turps

Is there another formula that should be used?
--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
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<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Dani Greer wrote:</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<PRE>Remember though, it has been shown that
Portland cement and plaster in the cement is not good
and this is a practice that was touted through most
of this century.&nbsp; Make sure your cement formula
contains neither.</PRE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>

<P><BR>The cement formula that I have been using (which my retailer has
been selling in a premixed powder form) is as follows:
<P>4 parts whiting
<BR>2 parts plaster
<BR>1 1/2 parts cement
<BR>1/4 part lamp black
<BR>1 part boiled linseed oil
<BR>1 1/2 parts turps
<P>Is there another formula that should be used?
<BR>--
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Tina Booth-
<BR>-Knowledge is true opinion-
<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -Plato-
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------EEB97CB51D2CCB1BE514A8B9--

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 15:48:50 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:00:57 +1200
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.22057.0>
References: <<199908241457_MC2-8234-FA6A@compuserve.com>>
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Dani Greer wrote:

> Message text written by Tina Booth
> >
> When I have finished a panel I rub on stove blackon the lead, let it dry,
> then whiting and polish
> it like I was shining a shoe. Am I missing a step or just some US products?
> <
>
> Are you cementing the window, Tina?  That usually blackens
> the lead in the process and certainly, the cementing is fundamental
> to the structural integrity of a lead panel.

Yes I am, sorry for leaving that piece out.  After cementing I apply lampblack
(stove black) to the lead -solder joints in particular, as they seem to be a
lot more noticable than the lead.  However since I have been polishing it with
whiting it seems to bring the lead up, so there is not so much of a contrast
between the lead and the solder.

My process is:
cement, whiting to remove excess cement, leave to dry, lampblack, whiting to
polish up like a shoe. Finished.

--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 16:04:30 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
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Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:31:56 -0700
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>This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>------_=_NextPart_001_01BEEE66.4A865006
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>A triptych is three separate panels that have been joined together to form
>one pig panel.
>Usually they have a common theme between them.

Oh Vic...did you really mean to make that slip?  Christie's going to have a
fit if pig panels come up as a topic again.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 16:37:07 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Dalle de Verre!
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Joeseph,

Here is a link to a page that has information on Dalle de verre.

http://www.haegerstainedglass.com/
(scroll down to the section on faceted glass)

I e-mailed the maker of this page to ask for permission to archive, and
found him to be very receptive. Good luck with your quest!


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 18:05:16 1999
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From: Rita Tidwell <tidwell2@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: thanks 
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:11:46 -0400
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 Thanks for the help on foil problem. Will try the trick with flash next
time I use the camera. Wonder if a piece of scotch tape would work? Has
anyone seen a pattern for the "End of the Trail"  and a bulldozer or
john deere?

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 19:36:34 1999
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From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Dalle de Verre!
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 20:30:39 -0400
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Chris Kaiser wrote:

> Hi Joeseph,
>
> Here is a link to a page that has information on Dalle de verre.
>
> http://www.haegerstainedglass.com/
> (scroll down to the section on faceted glass)

Thank you for the site---now I'm more confused than ever!

But at least I now know what I don't know, whereas before I didn't!  :-)

Best wishes.
Joseph

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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Rita Tidwell <tidwell2@bellsouth.net>
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Subject: Re: thanks
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:36:05 -0400
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Rita Tidwell wrote:
> 
>  Thanks for the help on foil problem. Will try the trick with flash next
> time I use the camera. Wonder if a piece of scotch tape would work? Has
> anyone seen a pattern for the "End of the Trail"  and a bulldozer or
> john deere?
> 
> ----
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i would'nt try that with the tape. the flash can get very hot (ever get
your finger in the way? the tape may stick on and you may never get it
off. maybe a piece of wax paper...

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 20:44:46 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "Tina Booth" <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 08:53:26 
Message-ID: <199908250300.VAA01691@mantis.privatei.com>
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On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:06:56 +1200, Tina Booth wrote:

>Candy Thurman wrote:
>
>> THEN I clean it with CJ's (or Giraffe Joos if that's what you use, or Dawn, or 
whatever) well,
>> patina the panel, clean it again with CJ's, then wax it with KemoPro Finishing 
Compound and
>> voila!
>
>Please excuse my ignorance but I have never heard of waxing (polishing?) the panel 
what is the
>purpose? is the product a was or a blend of whiting and other ingrediants?  The 
cleaners the are
>mentioned above are new to me also.  Are they specific products for sg or standard 
glass
>cleaners?
>
>When I have finished a panel I rub on stove blackon the lead, let it dry, then whiting 
and polish
>it like I was shining a shoe. Am I missing a step or just some US products?
>
>
>--
>     -Tina Booth-
Tina , I believe we were talking about copperfoil thruout and lead on the edges only. 

The wax deepens the color on the patina and adds a protective coating to all.

Candy





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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 21:06:35 1999
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Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:27:50 -0500
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Spectrums pattern set 10
bottom right is the closest Ive seen.
http://www.spectrumglass.com/PattSet.html
to the end of the trail...
You could get an idea and go from there for 
what you want to do with it.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 21:16:31 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 99 08:53:20 
Message-ID: <199908250300.VAA01685@mantis.privatei.com>
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On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:06:56 +1200, Tina Booth wrote:

>Candy Thurman wrote:
>
>> THEN I clean it with CJ's (or Giraffe Joos if that's what you use, or Dawn, or 
whatever) well,
>> patina the panel, clean it again with CJ's, then wax it with KemoPro Finishing 
Compound and
>> voila!
>
>Please excuse my ignorance but I have never heard of waxing (polishing?) the panel 
what is the
>purpose? is the product a was or a blend of whiting and other ingrediants?  The 
cleaners the are
>mentioned above are new to me also.  Are they specific products for sg or standard 
glass
>cleaners?
>
>When I have finished a panel I rub on stove blackon the lead, let it dry, then whiting 
and polish
>it like I was shining a shoe. Am I missing a step or just some US products?
>
>
>--
>     -Tina Booth-
Tina , I believe we were talking about copperfoil thruout and lead on the edges only. 

The wax deepens the color on the patina and adds a protective coating to all.

Candy



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From owner-glass Tue Aug 24 21:39:34 1999
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From: Rickola@aol.com
To: mschatee@juno.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Ptown glass shop
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:10:44 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.41044.0>
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"I recently was in Provincetown and spent alot of time in those stained
glass studios.  I imagine you bought your piece from Tacqua, it's the
only female owned shop there and I remember seeing a can of Pledge on her
work table.  What did you mean by when you said she squeezed pure wax
through the towel, did you mean the actual Pledge?  Or something else?
I'm going to try Pledge someday, I've heard of it, but I'll probably try
it on a small suncatcher or something for me first.

Oh now I am thinking about Provincetown again and counting the months
till I can go back for my yearly trek.  
Thanks,

Caren"

Don't remember the name of the shop, but that sounds right.  The panel was a 
gift to a friend and we did not keep a business card.  In any event, the shop 
was garden-level, low-ceilinged, work table in the back and sales counter 
near the door.  

What she did was spray the Pledge directly into the paper towel, causing it 
to pool a bit.  Then she folded the towel over and forced the wax through the 
paper.  She claimed that what extruded was the best ingredient of Pledge, the 
high quality carnuba wax.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 02:14:59 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:30:54 +0100
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>On a recent trip to Cape Cod, we purchased a medium  sized panel at a SG
shop in Provincetown.  The >artist/owner polished the window with Pledge.
After gently but thoroughly cleaning the shop dust and >tarnish with some
superfine steel wool and soap, she sprayed Pledge into a paper towel and
then squeezed >"pure" wax through the towel.  She then applied the wax and
buffed the panel.  So far, it has retained a >very nice gleam over the past
three weeks.  

It will last a very long time, I wax all my panels with this method after
putting on the patina.
The patina darkens to a fine glazed surface finish. All I have to do is
re-spray and hand polish the panels once a year with spray on polish of this
type to keep them looking as new.

Brandon

UK

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 06:24:38 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:55:33 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.125533.0>
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In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:

>maybe a piece of wax paper...

Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no wax 
to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper, because 
it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char, you'll 
be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).

Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure it's 
really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 06:57:33 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:26:04 -0400
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Message text written by "Shari"
>Please forgive my ignorance but what is triptych-style?<

Triptych refers to a single scene made up of 3 panels.
The center panel is usually larger (taller) than the 2 side panels.
Very common for Christian altar artwork from Medieval times up till
today.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:11:30 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:
> 
> >maybe a piece of wax paper...
> 
> Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no wax
> to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper, because
> it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char, you'll
> be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).
> 
> Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure it's
> really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.
> 
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


actually all this is pretty silly. glass would work better. youg white
stipple. or clear window glass that's been etched, or blasted. or maybe
a better diffuser - it might look strange but maybe clear granite, or
ripple. you could even solder something up to slip over the flash. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 07:59:28 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Ptown glass shop
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:06:12 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Rickola@aol.com wrote:
> 
> "I recently was in Provincetown and spent alot of time in those stained
> glass studios.  I imagine you bought your piece from Tacqua, it's the
> only female owned shop there and I remember seeing a can of Pledge on her
> work table.  What did you mean by when you said she squeezed pure wax
> through the towel, did you mean the actual Pledge?  Or something else?
> I'm going to try Pledge someday, I've heard of it, but I'll probably try
> it on a small suncatcher or something for me first.
> 
> Oh now I am thinking about Provincetown again and counting the months
> till I can go back for my yearly trek.
> Thanks,
> 
> Caren"
> 
> Don't remember the name of the shop, but that sounds right.  The panel was a
> gift to a friend and we did not keep a business card.  In any event, the shop
> was garden-level, low-ceilinged, work table in the back and sales counter
> near the door.
> 
> What she did was spray the Pledge directly into the paper towel, causing it
> to pool a bit.  Then she folded the towel over and forced the wax through the
> paper.  She claimed that what extruded was the best ingredient of Pledge, the
> high quality carnuba wax.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i heard just spraying on pledge works fine. i've used original before,
it works, everything is shiney, resists water better. it does'nt polish
anything, just makes it shiny. i don't use it becuase of that, i also
don't use it because i can't stand the smell.

---Mike Savad



-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 08:02:25 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:19:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.5193.0>
Precedence: bulk

Depending on your flash, you may be able to buy a plastic diffuser that
clips 
over front of the flash unit. They aren't available for all units but you
may 
be able to adapt one to yours.

The other thing to try is tilting the flash up about seven degrees. I know
that 
prevents red eye and reflections from mirrored backgrounds so it should also

prevent reflection off the glass.

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com [mailto:Witchdoc3@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:56 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks



In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:

>maybe a piece of wax paper...

Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no
wax 
to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper, because

it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char, you'll 
be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).

Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure it's

really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 08:32:01 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:09:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.594.0>
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Christie

I humbly apologize. It was we in the computer world used to call a finger
check.

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: seaspray@mail.island.net [mailto:seaspray@mail.island.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:32 PM
To: glass@bungi.com
Cc: vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
>
>A triptych is three separate panels that have been joined together to form
>one pig panel.
>Usually they have a common theme between them.

Oh Vic...did you really mean to make that slip?  Christie's going to have a
fit if pig panels come up as a topic again.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 08:36:04 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:09:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.594.0>
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Christie

I humbly apologize. It was we in the computer world used to call a finger
check.

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: seaspray@mail.island.net [mailto:seaspray@mail.island.net]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 6:32 PM
To: glass@bungi.com
Cc: vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
Subject: RE: glass fireplace screen
>
>A triptych is three separate panels that have been joined together to form
>one pig panel.
>Usually they have a common theme between them.

Oh Vic...did you really mean to make that slip?  Christie's going to have a
fit if pig panels come up as a topic again.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 08:42:48 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:38:42 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.63842.0>
References: <<1999Aug25.125533.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I must have not received the first posting on this message. Are you talking
about covering the flash with these different papers??
Thanks..
Mary
----- Original Message -----
From: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:55 AM
Subject: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks


>
> In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:
>
> >maybe a piece of wax paper...
>
> Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no
wax
> to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper,
because
> it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char,
you'll
> be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).
>
> Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure
it's
> really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.
>
>
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 09:58:08 1999
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X-Path: bham.ac.uk!b.s.jones
From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 16:53:43 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.175343.0>
Precedence: bulk

>maybe a piece of wax paper...

>Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no
wax 
>to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper,
because 
>it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char, you'll

>be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).

>Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure
it's 
>really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.


>Sparks

I thought this was a glass list  ...  why not use a piece of ground glass.
Years ago I made diffusers for home brew enlargers and other things by
simply using coarse carborundum powder between glass surfaces rubbed
together  lubricated by water.

Brandon
UK



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 10:19:11 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:22:15 -0700
Message-ID: <199908251622.JAA19494@mimas.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>
>In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:
>
>>maybe a piece of wax paper...
>
>Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no wax 
>to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper, because 
>it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char, you'll 
>be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).
>
>Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure it's 
>really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.

Hi all.  Missed the beginning of this thread because it was lurking under a
nondescript thread title I wasn't following, so my comments may be off base.
It sounds like people are trying to get rid of the ugly flash reflection in
the middle of a sg. panel when you take a photo in dim light???

Here's what a photographer friend of mine set me up with...my flash unit is
now on a long curly extention cord so I can move it away from the camera
(even just holding it away in my left hand) and directing the flash so it
will bounce off a white ceiling, or at an angle so the light still hits the
panel, but the reflection bounces off the glass at an angle that misses the
camera lens.  Does that make sense?  I'm trying to describe something that
could be drawn on paper in about 2 seconds.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 11:03:15 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:51:47 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug25.63842.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Mary wrote:
> 
> I must have not received the first posting on this message. Are you talking
> about covering the flash with these different papers??
> Thanks..
> Mary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
> To: <glass@bungi.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 8:55 AM
> Subject: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
> 
> >
> > In a message dated 8/24/99 11:09:04 PM, esavad@home.net writes:
> >
> > >maybe a piece of wax paper...
> >
> > Tracing paper or translucent drafting paper is better than wax paper - no
> wax
> > to melt. But you still need to be careful not to overheat the paper,
> because
> > it's thin and will char and burn easily (and once it starts to char,
> you'll
> > be taking all your pictures in an ugly brownish light).
> >
> > Some people use baker's parchment, but if you do, you need to make sure
> it's
> > really *bright white* or it may give a yellowish cast to your pictures.
> >
> >
> > Sparks
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah. originally they wanted to keep glare off of a project. maybe
diffusing the light more would help...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 12:18:47 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "seaspray@island.net" <seaspray@mail.island.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:02:25 -0400
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Message text written by seaspray@island.net
> directing the flash <

I have never used a flash to photograph =

stained glass.... I place the panel in a
North facing window, better on an over-
cast day, and take three shots at different
f-stops.  I usually end up with 2-3 useable
shots, no reflection problems, good color,
etc.  I use a correcting filter if I have to =

shoot with florescent lighting in situ, but
don't use a flash.  Am I missing something
here?  Why the flash?  Perhaps our friend
Barefoot Daniel could respond if he's still
on the list.....

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 12:47:30 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (seaspray@island.net)
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: re: diffusing your flash was re: thanks
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:28:55 -0700
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Precedence: bulk

>Message text written by seaspray@island.net
>> directing the flash <
>
>I have never used a flash to photograph 
>stained glass.... I place the panel in a
>North facing window, better on an over-
>cast day, and take three shots at different
>f-stops.  I usually end up with 2-3 useable
>shots, no reflection problems, good color,
>etc.  I use a correcting filter if I have to 
>shoot with florescent lighting in situ, but
>don't use a flash.  Am I missing something
>here?  Why the flash?  Perhaps our friend
>Barefoot Daniel could respond if he's still
>on the list.....


Dani...I don't usually use a flash either, but sometimes it's
necessary...like getting enough ambient light into a kitchen to photograph
the cabinet doors, or to provide enough light for a room divider that's
installed internally, rather than in an outside window.

I usually try and photograph with ambient light, but then not all of my
installs are in north facing windows either, and the weather on installation
day is hit and miss, so I always bracket too.

I also bracket.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 12:59:31 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:34:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.83446.0>
Precedence: bulk

Learn from me.
Im doing it all wrong...
Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
might work as a fid?
I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
well just throw it on the floor now.
Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 14:09:10 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:19:53 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.61953.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
might work as a fid?<<

Cut the brush end off an old tooth brush for a good fid to burnish foil. A
piece of hardwood dowel about 1/2" in diameter and shaped at the end works
for opening lead.

I like the plastic fids available cheaply at most SG stores. I get the white
kind that seem to be made of Teflon.

Bob


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 14:23:20 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: specifics..re bad glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:54:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.105455.0>
Precedence: bulk

I should have been more specific...

I have a great home made foil burnisher..that I love..

I was in the need for a fid to open the channel of my lead.
That was how I broke the glass.  Trying to get it in that darn channel.
Glass doesnt like being forced...at least it didnt bite me.

Anyway...I finally used the handle end of a small pair of scissors.
Turns out it was one peice of glass I broke 2 times.  Maybe someday I
will be in the mood to take it apart and fix it.  Not today.  I *hate*
trying to take copperfoiled peices apart.

It is all together and soldered...Im gonna keep it...if I redid the
peice I might have to sell it. Oh...well...

Thanks to all of you who offered your condolences and stress releif
exersizes..there were some doozies! And Thanks for all the offers of
help.

If you are ever feeling really stressed....
talk to Shari Higby ...then Vic Modiani...your sure to be a drunken
zen-ster! Ohmmmmmm.....

TSuz...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 15:15:31 1999
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From: NEICYDENN@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:07:09 EDT
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In a message dated 8/25/1999 3:00:35 PM Central Daylight Time, 
gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:

<< Learn from me.
 Im doing it all wrong...
 Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
 Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
 anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
 might work as a fid?
 I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
 well just throw it on the floor now.
 Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(
 -- 

I know exactly how you feel! I have so many panels that I have HAD to keep 
for myself just because I have a crack in 1 tiny little piece. On the bright 
side, my kids really love the stuff that I ruin :) 

Denise
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 15:32:49 1999
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From: "pj friend" <artglass@waterw.com>
To: "Suzanne Gunn" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:32:12 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.133212.0>
Precedence: bulk

Never a really bad glass day. 
Ah, when you have lemons make lemonade.
What a wonderful experience in repair you will have.
Why are you looking for a fid? And why did the glass break.
If you answer those two count them two questions.  I am sure we can help
you repair the piece. Remember a repair is only a backwards assembly.

my best,
pj



Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
Member AIA
-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 4:27 PM
Subject: really BAD glass day


>Learn from me.
>Im doing it all wrong...
>Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
>Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
>anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
>might work as a fid?
>I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
>well just throw it on the floor now.
>Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(
>-- 
>Suzanne
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Choosing is only difficult 
>for those with imagination
>----
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>

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: specifics..re bad glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:59:27 -0400
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
> Not today.  I *hate*
trying to take copperfoiled peices apart.
<

Can you just scab the cracks?  And solder
over, then pretend like you did that on purpose?
;-D

Best,

Dani
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: cheapie fid
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 15:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
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Just my 2 cents worth =)
I use 1/2 of a clothes pin. I take the little spring thingee off, and
Voila! cheapo fid! I toss it when it gets a little groove in it, and
make another. 

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:53:58 -0400
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.<

The only way to ruin a perfectly good panel is
to break most of the pieces or discover after-the-
fact that your design is lousy.... this just sounds
like an itty-bitty repair job.  What is really happening
here.... and how does the fid come into play?  I
have a lovely burnisher made of lucite that I wouldn't
trade for anything.  And I have wood fids that are
home-made that I using for opening lead channels.
The former you can buy for cheap, the latter you can
make yourself.... just let me know if you want more
info and what your using it for...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:46:26 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.144626.0>
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>Learn from me.
Im doing it all wrong...
Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
might work as a fid?
I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
well just throw it on the floor now.
Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(<

Must have been something in the stars.  I had a really horrible
installation
happen Monday night.  Broke 2 pieces in the sidelight AFTER I had spent
2 hours modifying (i.e. cutting out little pieces of metal flashing) an
existing
suposedly standard Stanley door sidelight kit so that it could receive th=
e
new Stanley sidelight kit.  Had to take it back to the studio and repair
it.
But all's well that ends well.  The two sidelights got installed yesterda=
y
and
I'm $600 richer.

Don't throw your project on the floor just because only two pieces broke.=
 =

Teach yourself
repair!  Copper foil repair is not that hard to do!

Why all the moaning 'n' groaning about copper foil repair?  It's actually=

pretty
simple.  I do them all the time.  Got questions - just ask.  Frustrated? =

Tell us
what frustrates you and we'll try to help out!

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 17:40:12 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:40:12 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug25.144012.0>
References: <<1999Aug25.83446.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne Gunn wrote:
> 
> Learn from me.
> Im doing it all wrong...
> Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
> Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
> anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
> might work as a fid?
> I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
> well just throw it on the floor now.
> Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(
> --
> Suzanne
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Choosing is only difficult
> for those with imagination
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i use a 1/4" dowel sharpend with a pencil sharpner.  (round off the back
edge). when i first learned - we used pencils, but the lead always got
in the way. some people use popcical (sp) sticks. the back edge of your
marker will also work.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 18:11:06 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: specifics..re bad glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:48:39 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
>I *could* fix it, but I dont want to.<

Well, okay, how about if you come over and
cement five windows for me tonight... I've been
procrastinating all day and we really need to
get them finished and installed and money
in the bank to pay the rents....! LOL.

Best,

Dani Greer (whose having a bad glass day, too.)

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 18:29:16 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG - ATTN: Elisabeth!
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:48:47 -0400
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If anyone knows where E. is at this moment,
could you email me off-bungi?  Am trying to
get in touch with her.... TIA.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 18:38:48 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 19:06:53 -0500
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Yes, as a matter of fact I can.  And then it wouldnt have happened
because I would have had the tool I needed and wouldnt have been tempted
to try to *persuade* the glass to go in that tight spot!!
:o)  And then you would have said how lucky you were to have such a
productive employee who is so eager to learn! :o)

And I would have smiled sweetly and said..."thank God that b*%^h of a
piece didnt break! ;o)  You'd have made me repair it! ;o)"

Suzanne

Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Message text written by "pj friend"
> >What a wonderful experience in repair you will have.<
> 
> You are as bad as I am!!  Poor Suzanne.... can you
> imagine working for either one of us!?  LOL.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 19:43:21 1999
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 18:33:49 -0500
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Dear Denise,
	Why not just fix it.  I have taken out several cracked pieces and replaced
them... saves the panel and isn't that terrible a job... write me if you
need more help.  Meg

At 05:07 PM 8/25/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 8/25/1999 3:00:35 PM Central Daylight Time,=20
>gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
><< Learn from me.
> Im doing it all wrong...
> Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
> Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
> anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
> might work as a fid?
> I just broke two count em TWO peices of glass in my panel.  Might as
> well just throw it on the floor now.
> Well....looks like I have something new for MY house! :o(
> --=20
>
>I know exactly how you feel! I have so many panels that I have HAD to keep=
=20
>for myself just because I have a crack in 1 tiny little piece. On the=
 bright=20
>side, my kids really love the stuff that I ruin :)=20
>
>Denise
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA
RICHARD AND MEG LAVAL
Apdo 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA

PHONE 645-5052 or 645-5419
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 20:16:45 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:50:39 -0400
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 Remember a repair is only a backwards assembly.
>
I'll have to put that over my cutting table....I hate repairs!

I usually use an old pencil,,,I like the white plastic fids, but that
pencil is just always there ready to be picked up and used!
Dee 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 20:57:22 1999
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From: seaspray@comox.island.net (seaspray)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: bungi at its best WAS: really bad glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 17:43:49 -0700
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It's sure nice to see bungi at its best...all the encouraging words of
support and offers of assistance to help Suzanne repair her panel.  

C.

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: really BAD glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 20:55:52 -0400
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Message text written by "Christie A. Wood"
>
Don't throw your project on the floor just because only two pieces broke.=
=3D
 =3D

Teach yourself
repair!  Copper foil repair is not that hard to do!

Why all the moaning 'n' groaning about copper foil repair?<

Everybody's just having moany-groany days!

Best,

Dani Greer LOL
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 21:35:52 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:52:58 +1200
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Did I miss the reply or was there none?

Why should the cement contain no portland cement or plater of paris.  If
so what do I use instead?


> Dani Greer wrote:
>
>   Remember though, it has been shown that
>   Portland cement and plaster in the cement is not good
>   and this is a practice that was touted through most
>   of this century.  Make sure your cement formula
>   contains neither.
>
> Tina Booth wrote:
> The cement formula that I have been using (which my retailer has been selling in a premixed powder form) is as follows:
>
> 4 parts whiting
> 2 parts plaster
> 1 1/2 parts cement
> 1/4 part lamp black
> 1 part boiled linseed oil
> 1 1/2 parts turps
>
> Is there another formula that should be used?
>
--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 25 22:25:38 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: seaspray <seaspray@comox.island.net>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bungi at its best WAS: really bad glass day
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 23:17:06 -0500
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Thanks for all the suggestions and nice words :o)

Oh btw...the panel is done and really pretty! Crack and all...
The crack isnt noticable and even *I have to look for it...(sometimes)
it is baroque (lol) and it cracked under pressure! Ok..I'll shut up now! 
;o)  Oh...the lead looks beautiful...even if I do say so myself! :o)
Now....maybe my next panel will be completed intact with no cracks ! :o)
I'll let cha know.
T Suz

seaspray wrote:
> 
> It's sure nice to see bungi at its best...all the encouraging words of
> support and offers of assistance to help Suzanne repair her panel.
> 
> C.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 10:44:02 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:20:39 EDT
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In a message dated 8/25/99 8:22:11 PM, Ensembles@compuserve.com writes:

>Why all the moaning 'n' groaning about copper foil repair?  It's actually
>pretty simple.  I do them all the time.

She's also got this Really Weird Chick working for her who actually *enjoys* 
doing copper foil repairs...... I get a tremendous kick out of "not being 
able to tell it was ever broken" when the job's done. Doesn't take much to 
turn some people on, I guess :-)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 10:44:06 1999
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Subject: Re: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:20:37 EDT
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In a message dated 8/26/99 12:37:30 AM, TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz writes:

>Why should the cement contain no portland cement or plaster of paris.

Because they get *really* hard and stiff and take the "give" out of your 
finished panel, so as it settles over the years it's more likely to crack the 
glass, and when that happens it's practically impossible to get the cracked 
pieces out for repair without destroying the surrounding lead (and maybe some 
intact glass as well).

>If so what do I use instead?

Replace the plaster and cement with equal measures of whiting.

> 4 parts whiting
> 2 parts plaster
> 1 1/2 parts cement

Works out to 7 1/2 parts whiting (DUH!)

> 1/4 part lamp black

We haven't been able to find that around here (PA, USA); I wonder about using 
ground-up artists' charcoals? My first perverse idea was to pulverize some 
charcoal briquets, but on second thought, it might make the place smell like 
a barbecue pit. (Not that I have any objection to barbecue pits, but........)

> 1 part boiled linseed oil
> 1 1/2 parts turps

Funny that this should come up today (yesterday? which side of the date line 
is NZ on?). Christie just mixed up a batch of putty from scratch yesterday 
using this recipe (using all whiting, no cement or plaster). She said it 
mixed up nice and smooth and pliable and was far easier to work with than the 
usual Inland stuff we've been using. Not having any lamp black, she used part 
old grungy whiting from previous jobs, which gave the putty a nice gray color 
(NOTE: If you do this, make sure you sieve the stuff first to get rid of 
pieces of old putty!). Between that and smooshing the mixture around on the 
lead, it blacked up pretty nicely.


Sparks
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Subject: Re: RE: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:44:18 EDT
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In a message dated 8/25/99 1:42:06 PM, b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk writes:

>I thought this was a glass list  ...  why not use a piece of ground glass.

<LOL> Touche' !!!!!!!!!!!!


Sparks
    wondering why I didn't think of that........
    too early in the morning, I guess :-\

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:06:04 1999
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To: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 08:45:42 -0700
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>I think everybody here has missed the point... you put the flash BEHIND  the
>panel to shine the light through. To get even illumination  you diffuse the
>light from the flash by by flashing it either onto a reflective diffuser or
>through a diffusing sheet of paper or linen. The whole idea of using flash
>in the first place is to get the high colour temperature that is whiter than
>electic light bulbs or fluorescent lights so your final picture is more
>natural in color.

Okay Brandon...I've tried doing that but find a flash in the room behind a
panel doesn't offer enough illumination for the panel.  This is where the
long cord between my camera and flash was supposed to be a benefit.
However, if flash is pointed at panel, you get the flash coming through the
glass...e.g. a coloured hot spot instead of a white hot spot.  If I use the
bounce off the ceiling technique behind the panel, the results are pretty
dark and unusable for my portfolio.  

Suggestions on using a back flash successfully would be appreciated. Thanks

C.

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:21:38 1999
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From: NEICYDENN@aol.com
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Subject: repairanottaphobia
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:40:16 EDT
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In a message dated 8/25/1999 9:44:40 PM Central Daylight Time, 
rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr writes:

<< Dear Denise,
    Why not just fix it.  I have taken out several cracked pieces and replaced
 them... saves the panel and isn't that terrible a job... write me if you
 need more help.  Meg >>

Meg,
One of my very first projects was a panel lamp shade with a stained glass 
base. I never start small, always have to do the hardest projects right 
away:) Anyways, when I was soldering the shade together, it all kind of just 
fell apart and the foil came loose from a couple of the pieces. Well, I 
didn't get too frustrated at first, at least not until I tried repairing it. 
I removed the foil up to where it started coming off and put new foil on. 
Then tried soldering again. ARGGGGG... not only did the $#%&^^% thing fall 
apart again, but where I put the new foil up to the old looked really crappy. 
(I probably didn't go about the repair the right way) So I put it in a box 
and it has been sitting in the basement for 3 years waiting to be put 
together.

OK I know this sounds really whiny (sp), but because of that lamp I have some 
kind of repair phobia, I think it's called repairanottaphobia. 

So to make a long story longer, that is why i don't like to repair things :o) 

Denise
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:23:17 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Copper Foil repair
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:59:45 -0400
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>Ive never done a repair, copper foil, or leaded, but I am interested in
learing about it. Any pointers?<

Let's talk copper foil first.  Let's say you've got
a piece which has cracked.  Here's the process
for repair:
- take a piece of paper and trace over the broken
piece, rubbing the pencil lead over the solder lines.
Now you've got your pattern.  Cut out the pattern.
- find a piece of matching glass & cut out the
replacement piece.
- add extra score lines to the broken piece of glass
and use the ball end of your cutter to tap out the
broken glass. *** Caution *** Always wear safety
glasses/goggles when doing this, as the glass
will shatter.  Remove all pieces of glass, leaving
a hole in the panel.
- heat up the soldering iron & flux all solder lines
where the broken glass used to be.  Get some
pliers (I like to use medium sized needlenose
pliers).  Unsolder the inside copper foil, gently
pulling the foil away (use the pliers to grip the hot
foil) while you run the iron under & around the solder
line.  Watch out for dripping hot solder.
- after the copper foil is removed, run the hot iron
around the inside of the hole, removing as much
excess solder as you can.
- test the replacement piece of glass for fit into the
now-cleaned hole.  Grind off bits where needed
until the replacement piece fits within the hole.
- copper foil the replacement piece.
- (if necessary) use pennies under the replacement
piece to raise it up to the same level as the rest of
the panel prior to soldering.
- solder
- (if necessary) patina

There you have it!

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:41:12 1999
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From: "Mary E. Downing" <BDowning@uwyo.edu>
To: "'Glass@bungi.com'" <Glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Cementing lead panels query
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 10:27:06 -0600
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I have been working with stained glass for about a year, and am working on
my first lead panel in sort of a class situation.  The glass retailer/studio
runs classes like this:  Bevel cluster panel, May 1-August 31, and you can
work on your project during that time for no additional fees, other than the
class fee.  My problem is that I am still not finished with my panel and the
August 31 deadline is fast approaching.  All I have left to do is cement the
panel, however.  My instructor is telling me that I will need two days to do
this, one day for one side, and another day for the other side.  The big
problem is that the store/studio is a 200 mile round trip from my home, I
work full time, and only have weekends to make the trip. What she is using
for cement (that I have seen from watching others work on their panels) is
commercially prepared glass cement.  

My question is this:  Is there anything in the instructions for cementing
lead panels that requires a full day's drying before turning the project and
cementing the other side?  I did some digging around on the Net and found
instructions on Warner's site that indicated that a full 24 hours drying
time was necessary after the completion of the cementing process, but there
was no indication of a waiting period between sides.

Any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Beth
bdowning@uwyo.edu
 


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:43:26 1999
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To: bobdu@prodigy.net, glass@bungi.com, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 11:13:23 EDT
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Popsicle sticks and round chop stiks work well, also, for a fid.


_______________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:57:56 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'seaspray@mail.island.net'" <seaspray@mail.island.net>, 
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Diffusing your flash, was Re: thanks
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:26:13 +0100
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>Hi all.  Missed the beginning of this thread because it was lurking under a
>nondescript thread title I wasn't following, so my comments may be off
base.
>It sounds like people are trying to get rid of the ugly flash reflection in
>the middle of a sg. panel when you take a photo in dim light???

>Here's what a photographer friend of mine set me up with...my flash unit is
>now on a long curly extention cord so I can move it away from the camera
>(even just holding it away in my left hand) and directing the flash so it
>will bounce off a white ceiling, or at an angle so the light still hits the
>panel, but the reflection bounces off the glass at an angle that misses the
>camera lens.  Does that make sense?  I'm trying to describe something that
>could be drawn on paper in about 2 seconds.


I think everybody here has missed the point... you put the flash BEHIND  the
panel to shine the light through. To get even illumination  you diffuse the
light from the flash by by flashing it either onto a reflective diffuser or
through a diffusing sheet of paper or linen. The whole idea of using flash
in the first place is to get the high colour temperature that is whiter than
electic light bulbs or fluorescent lights so your final picture is more
natural in color.

Brandon
UK
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 12:57:59 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: really BAD glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 09:16:12 +0100
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>Learn from me.
>Im doing it all wrong...
>Ive just ruined a perfectly nice little copperfoil panel.
>Im so angry at myself and frustrated.
>anybody got a good suggestion for a common household item that
>might work as a fid?

Interesting to see others have gone the same way  I use my black magic
markers as fids
they are about 3/8 of an inch in dia and perfect for the job. The fids I
bought I use in a different way
They are flat in shape with a shaped point and round edges all round.When I
am grinding glass on the grinder I use the fid between the glass and my
fingers to manouver the glass. It saves my fingers but also it distributes
the force along the piece of glass. I get less problems from breaking thin
pieces of glass I am grinding this way by pushing too hard. Also great when
grinding curves as it gives more control, Any body else do this sort of
thing.

Brandon UK
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 13:00:00 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:15:45 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.101545.0>
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Message text written by Tina Booth
>Why should the cement contain no portland cement or plater of paris.  If=

so what do I use instead?<

I don't think the question was posted.... at least I didn't
get it.  =


Portland cement is terribly damaging to windows that
use it.... the more moisture absorption, the harder the
cement until the window buckles.... to add insult to
injury, a repair is then almost impossible because the
glass is invariably damaged trying to remove it from
the lead channel.  It's use in this century has turned
into a restoration/conservation nightmare.  We have
had some luck applying a fine spraying of WD-40 on
a buckled window in order to attempt softening the
cement... it is not further damaging to the window so
is worth the try.  Plaster of Paris creates a thing called
"lime bloom" over time.... sort of a cruddy-looking =

barnacle-like growth emerging from underneath the
cames onto the glass.... very ugly and tenacious.  =

So just use cement with whiting.... takes a bit longer
to set up... and if it takes too long, try adding a bit
of Japan drier to your formula.  (If you're using =

Portland and PofP right now, replace with whiting
proportionately in your formula.)

Does that help?

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 13:17:01 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:15:36 -0400
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Message text written by Suzanne Gunn
>would have smiled sweetly and said..."thank God that b*%^h<

Oh, no you wouldn't have.... not in my =

studio.  Bad language not allowed!

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 13:20:38 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com" <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:19:44 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
> 2 parts plaster<

Don't use the plaster either.... it creates lime bloom.
Per Julie Sloan.... see "Conservation of Stained Glass
in America".  An excellent book and one every professional
stained glass studio should have.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 13:23:51 1999
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From: Nancy B Gildersleeve <nbg3755@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: specifics..re bad glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:33:48 -0700
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Dani--What do you mean by "scab the cracks"?  I'm wondering if it is
taping on a narrow strip of foil and then soldering over that?  Thanks in
advance for the info and lesson.  I'm learning so much from you.

Nancy G
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 13:56:27 1999
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X-Path: mtcon.net!shigbee
From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Copper Foil repair
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 14:54:13 -0600
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References: <<1999Aug26.55945.0>>
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Thanks Christie for the great summary for repairing copper foil. Now, can
someone give us the same type thing for lead? I have a broken piece in a
huge lead panel--it's dead center and about 1' down from the top...panel has
zinc frame. I am assuming you have to completely take the entire thing
apart. And how do you do that after you've puttied it all together? What a
mess...

Shari



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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 14:29:16 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 09:07:15 +1200
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O.k so no portland cement or plaster of paris.  I understand what you are
saying, it does make perfect sence.  Which leaves me with just whiting, lamp
black, boiled linseed oil and turps.  Will that set? I assumed that the
cement and the plaster of paris was a setting agent.  What is Japan drier?

Dani Greer wrote:

> Message text written by Tina Booth
> >Why should the cement contain no portland cement or plater of paris.  If
> so what do I use instead?<
>
> I don't think the question was posted.... at least I didn't
> get it.
>
> Portland cement is terribly damaging to windows that
> use it.... the more moisture absorption, the harder the
> cement until the window buckles.... to add insult to
> injury, a repair is then almost impossible because the
> glass is invariably damaged trying to remove it from
> the lead channel.  It's use in this century has turned
> into a restoration/conservation nightmare.  We have
> had some luck applying a fine spraying of WD-40 on
> a buckled window in order to attempt softening the
> cement... it is not further damaging to the window so
> is worth the try.  Plaster of Paris creates a thing called
> "lime bloom" over time.... sort of a cruddy-looking
> barnacle-like growth emerging from underneath the
> cames onto the glass.... very ugly and tenacious.
> So just use cement with whiting.... takes a bit longer
> to set up... and if it takes too long, try adding a bit
> of Japan drier to your formula.  (If you're using
> Portland and PofP right now, replace with whiting
> proportionately in your formula.)
>
> Does that help?
>
> Best,
>
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> http://www.igga.org/greer/

--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:05:12 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.23512.0>
References: <<1999Aug24.144359.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I can see you are not really advocating the material described below,
but It seems such a dangerous and destructive product, I can see no
reason for ever using it!  It sounds as though it would be like acid
paper in books, it causes the book to self-destruct.  This sounds like
it would cause the panels to self-destruct too.

Steve

In message <1999Aug24.144359.0@?>, Witchdoc3@aol.com writes
>
>
>You can also get patina that works on both copper foil and lead. The 
>Whittemore-Durgin catalog says it contains nitric acid and selenium oxide and 
>warns that it "will remove fired-on paints and stains from medallions, 
>stained glass church-type windows, etc. Use with extreme care when darkening 
>foil around such projects." I would add that it will do a number on skin too 
>- gloves are a must!
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 15:17:34 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:08:09 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.2389.0>
References: <<1999Aug24.14445.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I agree with Sparks that screens are not for putting in front of a lit
fire.  
I have made a few fire screens in the form of light boxes which fit over
the fire's grate and cover the hole, fitting snugly against the "wall"
around the fire opening.  A couple of light tubes and some electrical
lead, and you have a picture which you can light when you like.

Steve

In message <1999Aug24.14445.0@?>, Witchdoc3@aol.com writes
>
>In a message dated 8/23/99 10:52:10 PM, embee@mediaone.net writes:
>
>>I am making this screen to be removable when the fireplace is actually
>>used (what.. maybe once a year in Florida? ).
>
>That's the way they're most commonly used, the idea being to block drafts 
>up/down the fireplace when it's not in use and thus keep the fine ash dust 
>from drifting into the room and getting all over things when it's dry, and 
>keep out the "old wet ashes" smell when it rains, and to have something 
>beautiful to look at rather than just an empty fireplace.
>
>Last year Christie built a triptych-style fireplace screen and framed it in 
>stained "American Oak." She used regular small brass hinges from the local 
>hardware store to connect the panels. It's one of my (many) favorite pieces 
>she's made - all Yough glass, a southwestern desert scene with a standing 
>Native American woman in flowing robe and long hair in the center panel. 
>Drop-dead gorgeous!
>
>
>Sparks
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 15:21:58 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Shari <shigbee@mtcon.net>
Subject: Re: Copper Foil repair
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 23:09:50 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.0950.0>
References: <<1999Aug26.85413.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Well, Shari.
  There is a method used while the window is still in place, which can
be adapted to panels on the bench (and actually is easier there).  I
hope my descriptive skills are up to it.

Start on the inside.  Do not work on the weather side.  The processes
are such (when the window is vertical) that you cant re-solder, so you
loose the weather tight integrity of the window.  On the bench of course
you can re-solder.

Use a fine oyster knife or similar (wood is good) to gradually work the
lead up form the glass.  As the lead leaf begins to rise from the glass
all along its length, you can change the pressure to a gentle (all these
actions have to be gentle, repetitive ones) one at right angles to the
glass surface, keeping off the glass.  Do not apply too much pressure,
for fear of breaking the next door piece of glass.  Do not expect the
lead came to come up in a rush, just gradually.  That way the leaf of
the calme remains relatively smooth (important for closing down again).

When you have the leaf standing at right angles to the glass and in line
with the heart of the calme all around the glass piece, you will still
have some difficulty where there are solder joints.  It depends on the
dimensions and shape of the piece how critical this is, but you may have
to cut part of the solder joint (not all of it though) by gently pushing
and wiggling the lead knife (at right angles to the glass) toward the
heart of the calme.  When you reach the heart, stop!  do not go further!
Then return to lifting the lead calme with the solder on it.  This is
difficult, because I want to use a lot of effort for a quick result.
This will result in further damage to the window. Don't look for quick
results!

Now you have all the calme upper leaves up, the soldered parts as well.
If you are lucky, the glass will now come out easily, if not you will
need to break the cement seal between the glass and the calme on the
opposite side.  As the glass is broken it should now come out easily.

Keep all the pieces together.  Reassemble them and tape them together to
form a template for the replacement glass.  Cut the new glass just a
very little smaller than the original.  Be prepared to do gentle grozing
to make the piece fit.  When it does, apply cement to the open calme,
then put the glass in the space, and begin to fold the calme down again.
(of course, if this is on the bench, apply the cement after the calmes
are folded down again)

At first use a pressure on the calme parallel to the glass.  As the
calme begins to move, change the angle of pressure to follow it.  Use
the pressure gently and in single passes along the whole length of the
opened calme.  Don't press down in one spot and then the next spot, as
it makes for a very lumpy repair.  

When the calmes are pressed down, clean up.

Easy!

Time consuming!

Costs a lot more than new work!

Because it takes so much longer to do!


Good luck.

Steve

In message <1999Aug26.85413.0@?>, Shari <shigbee@mtcon.net> writes
>Thanks Christie for the great summary for repairing copper foil. Now, can
>someone give us the same type thing for lead? I have a broken piece in a
>huge lead panel--it's dead center and about 1' down from the top...panel has
>zinc frame. I am assuming you have to completely take the entire thing
>apart. And how do you do that after you've puttied it all together? What a
>mess...
>
>Shari
>
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 15:33:30 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: "Mary E. Downing" <BDowning@uwyo.edu>
Subject: Re: Cementing lead panels query
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 22:40:55 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.234055.0>
References: <<1999Aug26.4276.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Mary,
    I don't wait between cementing sides - I don't have the time.  I
cement one side, apply whiting, scrub it in, turn over, cement, apply
whiting, scrub it in, turn over scrub 1st side, add more whiting, scrub
again, turn over, scrub, apply more whiting, scrub, turn over use the
used whiting to scrub in more, turn over put the used whiting on,
scrub.......

Getting the idea?

Steve

In message <1999Aug26.4276.0@?>, Mary E. Downing <BDowning@uwyo.edu>
writes
>I have been working with stained glass for about a year, and am working on
>my first lead panel in sort of a class situation.  The glass retailer/studio
>runs classes like this:  Bevel cluster panel, May 1-August 31, and you can
>work on your project during that time for no additional fees, other than the
>class fee.  My problem is that I am still not finished with my panel and the
>August 31 deadline is fast approaching.  All I have left to do is cement the
>panel, however.  My instructor is telling me that I will need two days to do
>this, one day for one side, and another day for the other side.  The big
>problem is that the store/studio is a 200 mile round trip from my home, I
>work full time, and only have weekends to make the trip. What she is using
>for cement (that I have seen from watching others work on their panels) is
>commercially prepared glass cement.  
>
>My question is this:  Is there anything in the instructions for cementing
>lead panels that requires a full day's drying before turning the project and
>cementing the other side?  I did some digging around on the Net and found
>instructions on Warner's site that indicated that a full 24 hours drying
>time was necessary after the completion of the cementing process, but there
>was no indication of a waiting period between sides.
>
>Any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Beth
>bdowning@uwyo.edu
> 
>
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 15:52:36 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:58:11 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.225811.0>
References: <<1999Aug23.124325.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne,
        If you use lead light cement (the black runny putty) when
        finishing the "U" calme, you will drag colour over the copper
        foiled part.  So why bother to patina?  If you do patina, the
        colour will be abraded off it.  If you the patina, do it after
        finishing the cementing.

Steve
In message <1999Aug23.124325.0@?>, Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
writes
>For the sake of discussing glass...
>Im not only asking my guru (who I've already been discussing this
>privately with) but putting it to the list.  
>
>I also happen to know that I am not the only copperfoil person new to
>lead.  So, obviously there are others here that can benefit from
>anything I can learn from this as well.
>
>I just finished (well I will when I assimilate all the info) a
>copperfoil panel.  I want to use U lead came around the panel.
>
>Ive finished soldering and have patina'd the panel.  ok...
>So.. now...
>
>wax the patina'd copperfoiled area?  Then add the U lead, putty and use
>whiting?  Let the lead darken via that route?  Will that look good with
>my black patina?
>
>What about when I do a panel that some of the innerds so to to speak are
>both lead and copperfoiled?  Better to *not* use patina???

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 15:55:00 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: glass fireplace screen
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:55:14 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.225514.0>
References: <<1999Aug23.141211.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

If you want any heat from the fireplace (and we certainly do in
Scotland), you will not want any structure between you and the fire.
Fireplaces heat by two methods.  1 - storing heat in the stone work
around the fire.  2- radiant heat, i.e. that which comes directly at
you.
So you don't want a fire screen to be anything more than decorative.
Put a notice on it about use.  I.e. only put in front of a fireplace
while there is no fire.

Steve

 In message <1999Aug23.141211.0@?>, Mary <embee@mediaone.net> writes
>
>ask them about
>> making a frame that the glass could be inserted into or consider if the
>glass
>> can be attached to the current glass doors.  I wonder if there would be a
>> problem with heat causing glass to crack.
>>
>>
>
>I am making this screen to be removable when the fireplace is actually used
>(what.. maybe once a year in Florida? ). I don't think I would feel safe
>using it while a fire was actually burning. Maybe some of the scientific
>people on this list can address that issue, but I can't imagine that it
>would be tempered to withstand that kind of heat. I also wonder what the
>heat would do to the solder and patina.
>
>I like the idea, though, of finding a metal frame of some sort in which to
>insert the finished glass piece. Maybe a wrought iron free-standing thingy??
>Shoot.. I don't know, but this idea is growing by the responses received!
>Thanks to everyone for such good suggestions and food for thought!
>Mary
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 16:25:35 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:16:53 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.151653.0>
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Message text written by Tina Booth
>O.k so no portland cement or plaster of paris.  I understand what you ar=
e
saying, it does make perfect sence.  Which leaves me with just whiting,
lamp
black, boiled linseed oil and turps.  Will that set?<

Yes, it will set.  And you can regulate the thickness of the putty
with the amount of whiting used.  Think of the whiting as flour in
a dough batter.  You've got boiled linseed oil, and turps for the
plastic and wet components.  The batch I made & used yesterday
set up very nicely.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:16:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.151635.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Tina Booth
>Will that set?<

Yes, it just takes longer... a good 24 hours is
a must before installation.  The Japan drier
speeds drying and can be purchased at art
supply stores.... use very little to start and
experiment.... too much will result in cracking
on the cement (or anything your using it in.)

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 16:58:39 1999
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From: "Stained Glass Lamps" <stainedglasslamps@csinet.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 18:13:33 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEEFEE.B55EDAE0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Brandon UK,  I have an ideal so you won't get sore fingers.My husband =
Arkie & I (Mary) use rubber fingers.  You can buy them for your fingers =
& thumb.  They come in different sizes.  They are called here Postal =
Service rubber
fingers.  You can buy them at an office supply store.  Just ask for the =
rubber fingers postal workers use.  They cost about .30 cents each.  =
Hope this helps so you won't get sore fingers.  Mary & Arkie

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEEFEE.B55EDAE0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D4>Brandon UK,&nbsp; I have an ideal so =
you won't=20
get sore fingers.My husband Arkie &amp; I (Mary) use rubber =
fingers.&nbsp; You=20
can buy them for your fingers &amp; thumb.&nbsp; They come in different=20
sizes.&nbsp; They are called here Postal Service rubber</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D4>fingers.&nbsp; You can buy them at =
an office=20
supply store.&nbsp; Just ask for the rubber fingers postal workers =
use.&nbsp;=20
They cost about .30 cents each.&nbsp; Hope this helps so you won't get =
sore=20
fingers.&nbsp; Mary &amp; Arkie</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0005_01BEEFEE.B55EDAE0--

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 16:59:59 1999
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From: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Grinding Glass
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 17:15:22 -0500
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It was interesting that someone is using a FID to save on fingers when
grinding.  I have purchased six rubber finger tips and use them when
grinding.  They certainly do save on my finger tips.  I also have a set
of the thumb pushers, but they are usually just hanging around my thumbs
while I am grinding.  I usually cut a bunch of glass and then grind it
all at once.

Joanne

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 17:10:43 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fall S.G. class
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:25:43 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.152543.0>
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Thanks everyone for sending me
your fave URL's.... after all that, my
Fall class cancelled!  Hope someone
on the list is keeping track of all the
posts and will start a new list for us....
I know we had one going a few years
back.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 17:20:55 1999
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From: seaspray@comox.island.net (seaspray)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: s.g. repair
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 16:26:57 -0700
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Thanks Christie for providing a step by step to glass repair.  I did a
repair a couple of weeks ago right around the time the thread on using
negative space as a stencil was on bungi.  So...instead of rubbing the panel
to get the shape of the replacement piece, I removed the broken glass,
removed all the copper foil and lead pretty much as per Christie's
description.  THEN, since I was repairing only 1 piece, I taped a piece of
cardboard to the underside of the panel and traced the shape of the
replacement glass onto the cardboard, and VOILA! a template from which I cut
the replacement glass.  It slid in perfectly with no need for grinding.  For
single piece repairs I think this is a much faster method.  If I was
repairing a section of window with several adjacent cracked pieces it would
be necessary to make a rubbing and recut each piece from that. The rubbing
would also be needed for reassembly.

C. 

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 17:34:57 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary E. Downing" <BDowning@uwyo.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Cementing lead panels query
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 19:01:22 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.15122.0>
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Message text written by "Mary E. Downing"
>e is fast approaching.  All I have left to do is cement the
panel, however.  My instructor is telling me that I will need two days to=

do
this, one day for one side, and another day for the other side.  The big
problem is that the store/studio is a 200 mile round trip from my home, I=

work full time, and only have weekends to make the trip. What she is usin=
g
for cement (that I have seen from watching others work on their panels) i=
s
commercially prepared glass cement.  <

We cement both sides of the panel right away.... then leave
to set up overnight.... and do detailing the second day.  Works
just dandy.  In fact, I am cementing six windows today for
installation on Saturday and Monday.  We make our own
cement using this formula:

6 parts whiting
1 part boiled linseed oil
2 parts mineral spirits
1/8-1/4 part lamp black (or cement color)
more whiting for clean-up

Mix to consistency of pancake batter.  You can
also add a bit of Japan drier if you feel the =

mix doesn't set up fast enough... I don't use it
because I'm in a high desert climate and =

everything dries out very quickly here.  I don't use
commercially prepared cements because it would
cost us a fortune given how many windows we
build... and, often I can't get a Material Safety
Data Sheet from the manufacturer so that I'm
assured Portland cement and Plaster of Paris are
not used.  I guess they think we're all going to
steal their formulae and go into the cement
business <sigh>.  Hope that helps!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 18:56:41 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: cracked panel sold
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 20:29:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug26.15298.0>
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Ihat panel that I cracked yesterday sold today :o)
Just had to tell you guys.
I unsubbed since I'll be gone til Monday, btw.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 19:29:07 1999
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From: Gloyn@aol.com
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Subject: Re: really BAD glass day
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 1999 21:53:28 EDT
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In a message dated 8/25/99 5:33:56 PM Central Daylight Time, 
artglass@waterw.com writes:

<< Never a really bad glass day. 
 Ah, when you have lemons make lemonade. >>

I had a really bad glass day too and I can't for the life of me see how to 
make the lemonade!  I was cleaning, had a newly finished panel leaning 
against the leg of the table (stupid I know), when I lost my balance knocked 
the panel over and then WHAM- I stepped in the middle of it, broke the 
antique glass photo negative that I built the whole panel around.  OW do I 
hurt.... Important lesson learned?  You bet!
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 26 19:57:54 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: NOT GLASS-out of town!
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 99 08:32:03 
Message-ID: <199908270238.UAA11054@mantis.privatei.com>
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Hey everyone,

I'll be in Los Alamos NM and Santa Fe for the next four days. So I'll catch up with y'all on 
Tues eve...

Try out some new topics...

Candy

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 03:59:01 1999
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X-Path: bham.ac.uk!b.s.jones
From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:32:14 +0100
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Hi all
finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg 
Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
up the day job

Brandon UK

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 05:33:40 1999
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From: Nadine Beth Schneider <nadinesfolly@erols.com>
To: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
Subject: re: new panel
Date: 27 Aug 99 08:05:35 -0500
Message-ID: <199908271201.IAA19653@smtp1.erols.com>
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Brandon. . .

I love your elephant window--especially
like their faces and eyes!

Nadine


www.nadinesfolly.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 06:04:34 1999
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Subject: Re: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:45:27 EDT
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In a message dated 8/26/99 4:22:04 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:

>Don't use the plaster either....

As Inspector Clouseau would say, "Zet ees what I hev been saying." :-)

>>Replace the plaster and cement with equal measures of whiting.
>>
>>> 4 parts whiting
>>> 2 parts plaster
>>> 1 1/2 parts cement
>>
>>Works out to 7 1/2 parts whiting (DUH!)

I *did* get it right - guess I just didn't say it too clearly. At any rate, 
the recipe seems to have worked just fine - the panel in question was nice 
and solid once the putty dried.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 06:19:59 1999
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Subject: Re: combining copperfoil and lead
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:45:20 EDT
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In a message dated 8/26/99 5:44:56 PM, s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk 
writes:

>I can see you are not really advocating the material described below [...]

You got that right. Besides, in the process of applying the stuff it also 
ends up dissolving a small amount of lead, which gets into the ground water 
when you clean up. Sounds like pretty mean stuff if you ask me.

All things considered, I think I'd be more inclined to patina the copperfoil 
lightly so it would match the lead instead of the other way around........


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 06:35:15 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'Glass@bungi.com'" <Glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:24:27 +0100
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>Brandon. . .

>I love your elephant window--especially
>like their faces and eyes!
The eyes are a bit alien..
>Nadine
Just as a note for the list..
The eyes are only one eighth of an inch by one quarter of an inch.
Done by cutting a four inch slither of glass,taking the sharp edges off it
then I grind most of the shape on the end using the rest of the slither as a
handle .Cut off the very small end then it is worn out fingers for a bit to
finish it off to shape.Foiling is done by making my own foil width to match
with a razor blade.Dont ask me how the toe nails were done...
Brandon 
UK

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 08:02:37 1999
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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 07:40:55 -0700
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References: <<1999Aug27.123214.0>>
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At 11:32 AM 8/27/99 +0100, B. S. Jones wrote:
>Hi all
>finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
>http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg 
>Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
>up the day job
>
>Brandon UK

Seems to me you can give up the day job any time.   Great sense of depth
and movement in that panel.  Congratulations!

Steve
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 08:33:26 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
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Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:43:40 -0400
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>Seems to me you can give up the day job any time.   Great sense of depth
>and movement in that panel.  Congratulations!

Good critique Steve, I was trying to find a better way to phrase 'I really
like that!'
Brandon, you did a very good designs. I really had a sense of motion in
those great beasts.
Dee
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 08:53:24 1999
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To: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:27:10 -0700
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"B. S. Jones" wrote:
>=20
> Hi all
> finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
> http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg
> Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't g=
ive
> up the day job

Depends on what the day job is and how much it pays.

Your elephant piece seems pretty good to me Brandon.

Whats the problem? <smile>

--=20
HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 09:06:33 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 08:40:22 PDT
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[In the message entitled "Re: new panel" on Aug 27,  7:40, Steve Wernecke writes:]
> At 11:32 AM 8/27/99 +0100, B. S. Jones wrote:
> >Hi all
> >finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
> >http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg 
> >Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
> >up the day job
> >
> >Brandon UK
> 
> Seems to me you can give up the day job any time.   Great sense of depth
> and movement in that panel.  Congratulations!
> 
> Steve

I second that!!  You did a wonderful job on that panel. You should
give yourself a pat on the back!!


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 09:31:29 1999
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X-Path: mtcon.net!shigbee
From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Lead repair
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 10:06:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.4624.0>
References: <<199908261917_MC2-8286-5A52@compuserve.com>>
Precedence: bulk

My lead window that I need to repair is removable so I can fix it on the
table. My instructor gave me instructions that included sawing the zinc
frame off both sides and lifting the top 1' of the panel off. Then cut/bend
the sides apart until you can get to the broken piece.....

Would anyone do it this way, rather than just remove the broken piece by
lifting the lead up on one side? Neither way sounds exactly easy, but taking
the panel apart like that sounds like a lot more work and more chances to
never get it back together quite right again...

What d'ya think?

Shari

----- Original Message -----
From: Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Shari <shigbee@mtcon.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 5:16 PM
Subject: Lead repair


Message text written by "Shari"
>Thanks Christie for the great summary for repairing copper foil. Now, can
someone give us the same type thing for lead? I have a broken piece in a
huge lead panel--it's dead center and about 1' down from the top...panel
has
zinc frame. I am assuming you have to completely take the entire thing
apart. And how do you do that after you've puttied it all together? What a
mess...<

Ugh.  Ugly situation having the middle piece broken.
If you are brave enough, you can repair it in the following
fashion:
- make a template of the broken piece using the same technique
as with copper foil of rubbing a pencil lead over the lead cames.
But this time cut the template so that some of the rubbing line
shows, since the glass extends into the came with lead work.
It's always easier (not necessarily faster) to cut it a smidge too
large and then groze it down to size.
- score, tap & remove the broken glass.  You will
have to bend some of the lead came's "flanges" out in order
to remove the glass.  This is OK.  In fact, you're going to have
to bend all of the lead's flanges out all the way around in order
to put the replacement piece of glass back in, so go ahead
and do this step now while you're removing the broken glass.
- if necessary, you can cut angle cuts into the lead came at
the solder joints in order to complete bend the flanges back
out of the way.  This is a time-consuming thing.  Don't rush it
or you might break or tear the lead flanges.  Do it very gently
and take your time.
- thoroughly clean out all old putty/cement from inside the
came.  Run that fid all around, removing old glass, cement,
etc. until it is clean.  Use a brush to remove any dirt & left-
overs.
- fit the replacement glass into the opening.  If it's too large
(and 99% of the time it will not fit perfectly the first time), mark
where you need to remove glass and groze or grind it down
some.  Try the fit again.  Do this until the glass snaps into
place inside the came.
- gently bend the came flanges back into place.
- flux & solder all seams front & back around the replacement
piece.
- cement/white & let rest for 24 hours
- reinstall.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/



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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 10:35:09 1999
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From: CncptThnkr@aol.com
To: b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: elliefonts........aka new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:56:39 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.165639.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hey Brandon,

Very nice panel.  I gotta admit, I didn't check it out at first cause I'm not 
into elephants (must be the need to lose 20 pounds) but I am VERY impressed.  
Loved the ground and the background behind their legs.  The texture is 
perfect.  You do excellent work choosing your glass.   

Keep up the good work.

IA
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 11:35:56 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 13:04:05 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.1345.0>
Precedence: bulk

Brandon, I don't know what you consider "proper" drawing, but I thought your
elephants were beautiful.  I am curious, was this panel for a particular
client - or for you?  Wondered about the motivation.  You certainly have a
gift for capturing their element.  Give up the day job!      Tami


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 12:05:36 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lead repair
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:26:21 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.102621.0>
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Message text written by "Shari"
>
Would anyone do it this way, rather than just remove the broken piece by
lifting the lead up on one side?<

Pulling the panel apart is less damaging to the lead
in the long run.... we sometimes pull the leaves of
the lead back to remove the glass (usually if the
window cannot be removed for repair), replace the
glass, then press the lead back down and burnish
it.  Here's the problem.... it weakens that piece of
lead and you probably won't be able to do that
kind of repair a second time because the lead won't
hold up to it.  I suppose it all depends on the relative
worth of the window..... =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 12:25:21 1999
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From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Elephant Panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 14:00:19 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.7019.0>
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Thanks for showing your work....it's a part of who you are, the glass
artist.  You captured a real sense of the big elephants lumbering
along.....I'm curious, do you have a special spot for it to hang?  Some
of the pieces (especially the back elephant's forehead, and the front
elephant's piece around the eye) look like bandsaw cuts - did you cut
them free hand?

Diane Manchester
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 12:38:10 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Lead repair
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 11:36:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.43634.0>
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>Would anyone do it this way, rather than just remove the broken piece by
>lifting the lead up on one side? Neither way sounds exactly easy, but
taking
>the panel apart like that sounds like a lot more work and more chances to
>never get it back together quite right again...
>
>What d'ya think?
>
>Shari

Disassembly of a leaded panel to the point where a broken piece can be
replaced is the way to go if you want a repair that can not be detected when
finished.

Prying up the leaf of the cames surrounding a broken piece is sometimes done
for one or two broken pieces as a means of accomplishing a repair quickly
but the repair is likely to show.

Making repairs to leaded panels requires a higher skill level than initial
fabrication. The work can be froth with problems and very time consuming for
the progress made. So, repairs can be costly and a client should be charged
accordingly.

Bob



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X-Path: yahoo.com!barbaraelmore
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: fusing glass help
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 12:07:37 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.5737.0>
Precedence: bulk


A friend and I have recently purchased a huge kiln at auction (it's a
1967 Paragon A99, but still being made as an S99), and although I've
had two classes in fusing/slumping, we are very much beginners!

Anyone know of any places on the web that might give us more knowledge?
 We're buying the "bible" by Lundstrum, but I can't seem to find out
much else.  

How about good sources for kiln furniture (ours came empty)?  

For those who fuse, what is your preferred glass?  We used GNA
exclusively in class, and it's very good.

I appreciate any and all input!

Thank you!
Barbara Elmore
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 15:11:14 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "barbara elmore" <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: fusing glass help
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 17:35:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.133540.0>
References: <<1999Aug27.5737.0>>
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Barbara...
I can't help you with technical questions, but as a former potter, I can
tell you that your pottery supply house will stock innumerable pieces of
kiln "furniture". That includes shelves, posts, thingys for holding beads
and on and on. They also carry replacement parts for almost every kiln made.
They are a great source for kiln-related materials. If you don't have a
pottery store, check out Duncan, Cress and Paragon online, just to name a
few. They will be good starting points toward finding kiln information.
Mary
----- Original Message -----
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 3:07 PM
Subject: fusing glass help


>
> A friend and I have recently purchased a huge kiln at auction (it's a
> 1967 Paragon A99, but still being made as an S99), and although I've
> had two classes in fusing/slumping, we are very much beginners!
>
> Anyone know of any places on the web that might give us more knowledge?
>  We're buying the "bible" by Lundstrum, but I can't seem to find out
> much else.
>
> How about good sources for kiln furniture (ours came empty)?
>
> For those who fuse, what is your preferred glass?  We used GNA
> exclusively in class, and it's very good.
>
> I appreciate any and all input!
>
> Thank you!
> Barbara Elmore
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 15:42:29 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: transmitting visa numbers
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 15:14:59 -0700
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Hi all.

One of my internet clients came up with a new and interesting (and I think,
safe) was to transmit her visa number to me to cover the cost of her panel.

She sent 5 emails...4 numbers in each, plus the expiry date in the last
message. That way if an email is intercepted by some grubby person it's of
no use to them.

Seems like a very creative idea to me, and thought I'd pass it on.

C.

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 16:43:11 1999
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From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: CncptThnkr@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Elephant panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:00:04 -0400
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I find the panel very pleasing but for a reservation or two:

1. In elephant iconography a trunk down elephant is regarded as bad luck---since
you have 2--you panel invites especially bad luck!  (This is know from the
painful personal experience of a client rejecting a work I fabricated with a
trunk-down elephant.)

2.  Your panel doesn't go far into either the realm of realism or
phantasy--unfortunately a too-common occurrence.  Your representation hovers
somewhere  between Baba the elephant and  National Geographic on location.  Thus
you should either give your hand the freedom to draw the elephant that may exist
only in your imagination (but one that all will recognize as the creature:
elephant), or commit to a more realistic, accurate representation of the species.

Best wishes,
Joseph

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 16:56:25 1999
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From: Hilary <hilary@voicenet.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 19:27:40 -0400
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Brandon,
Your elephants are fabulous.
Hilary


> Hi all
> finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
> http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg
> Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
> up the day job
> 
> Brandon UK
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "barbara elmore" <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fusing glass help
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 16:37:08 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug27.9378.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>How about good sources for kiln furniture (ours came empty)?

For those who fuse, what is your preferred glass?  We used GNA
exclusively in class, and it's very good.

I appreciate any and all input!

Thank you!
Barbara Elmore<<

Check out http://www.paragonweb.com for all the kiln supplies you need. They
might even sell you an instruction book for your kiln. Actually, for kiln
furniture I would try a ceramic supply store. They should be able to get you
a kiln shelf and kiln posts to set it on.

I make a big deal out of fusing Spectrum. Their website
http://www.spectrumglass.com has been beefed up with a lot of info on fusing
Spectrum. I also like GNA but find it more expensive.

Bob


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 18:45:49 1999
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From: CWWSLW@aol.com
To: b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 21:27:44 EDT
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I think it's a wonderful job.Your drawing is really pretty good!
 (If I were to try, they'd end up looking like overweight wiener dogs.)
Also, I don't think "trunk - down" is a big deal...if it were raining..they'd 
drown!
Keep on glassin'. You've got a real talent!

Alabama Susan
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 18:58:01 1999
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From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: new panel
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 20:31:29 -0400
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Precedence: bulk

Brandon,

    I just looked at your panel and thing the elephants are wonderful!  The
elephants look great!  I love the textured glass for the background.  The
mountains in the back add a nice touch.  Beautiful!  I was wondering how big
the panel is?

Jerri



> Hi all
> finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
> http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg
> Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
> up the day job
>
> Brandon UK
>


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 27 20:17:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fusing glass help
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:52:25 -0400
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Message text written by "Mary"
> If you don't have a
pottery store, check out Duncan, Cress and Paragon online, just to name a=

few. <

We buy lots of our kiln supplies at ceramic suppliers
locally..... have bought a kiln from one, too.  Another
supplier to try is Centre de Verre.... they have a web
page and their prices are very good.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 04:06:28 1999
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From: "Elena Rodríguez" <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Elephant panel
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:56:39 +0200
Message-ID: <1999Aug28.145639.0>
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Hi there everyone
I am just a lurker in this list but couldn't hold myself from commenting on the
message bellow;  given the development and variety of trends, styles, different focus
in art, and the fact they all co-exist, I don't quite see how can any type of style
be considered THE right one, or above others. Representational or not, ART IS FREE,
and if we do not respect freedom, where are we?
Elena in Spain

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Augusta escribió:

> I find the panel very pleasing but for a reservation or two:
>
> 1. In elephant iconography a trunk down elephant is regarded as bad luck---since
> you have 2--you panel invites especially bad luck!  (This is know from the
> painful personal experience of a client rejecting a work I fabricated with a
> trunk-down elephant.)
>
> 2.  Your panel doesn't go far into either the realm of realism or
> phantasy--unfortunately a too-common occurrence.  Your representation hovers
> somewhere  between Baba the elephant and  National Geographic on location.  Thus
> you should either give your hand the freedom to draw the elephant that may exist
> only in your imagination (but one that all will recognize as the creature:
> elephant), or commit to a more realistic, accurate representation of the species.
>
> Best wishes,
> Joseph
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 04:37:15 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!nbg3755
From: Nancy B Gildersleeve <nbg3755@juno.com>
To: glasschat@onelist.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: [glasschat] What kiln do I want?
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:13:21 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug28.01321.0>
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Hello all--especially Joan, and anyone else with fusing know-how:

I've finally decided its time to buy my own kiln and stop borrowing or
taking classes to use one.  I make small glass things including jewelry
(pendants and pins) and don't need anything really big.  I've used a
friend's Quick Fire and could get that or the Jen-Ken bead annealing kiln
(11" x 4") for about the same money.  I'm trying to stay in the $300
range just now.

Do you prefer top or side heating elements?  Can you give me any
suggestions, advice?  In a computer crash I lost all my accumulated
messages about fusing so I'm sorry if I'm re-opening old news.

Thanks in advance,

Nancy G (still in FL and watching Dennis creep toward the east coast)
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 05:13:38 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Elena Rodríguez" <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Elephant panel/Joseph's comments
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:51:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug28.3517.0>
References: <<1999Aug28.145639.0>>
Precedence: bulk


>
> > I find the panel very pleasing but for a reservation or two:
> >

I found Joseph's comments very interesting, and not at all perjorative. His
observations were, in my opinion, not intended to criticize the panel, but
critique it as an artwork.
If I were the artist, I would appreciate all input, as each person's
viewpoint of the piece is unique and allows the artist to view his own work
without the passion of ownership.
I have had many such critiques of my pottery work, and though all of us
desire to have each piece judged favorably, we learn from constructive
criticism as well. I remember one instructor, who upon viewing one of my
"creative" pieces, judged it, "Tacky, tacky, TACKYYYYY!!" In retrospect, and
free from the sting, she was 100% correct! Not fun, but I can guarantee you
I used a lighter hand when I next attempted to do a similar piece.
I personally thought the panel was gorgeous, but learned two things from
Joseph's post.
1. The lore concerning the trunk's placement.
2. Very interesting comment regarding full blown realism or fantasy... very
good observation, in my opinion.

Mary



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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 07:13:09 1999
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To: Elena Rodríguez <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>
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Subject: Tell us about Spain! (was:Elephant panel)
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 09:45:22 -0400 (EDT)
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Hello Elena and welcome!

Please stay out of the lurking closet a bit longer to tell us about glass
in Spain.

What part of Spain are you from? Could you tell us about historical and
contemporary glass in your area?

A dear friend and I are planning to visit Barcelona one of these days. Is
there a glass equivalent to Gaudi there? 

All the best,

Mary

PS: anybody going to Glass Visions? Do tell Elisabeth another European
voice has been heard. I'd tell her myself if I hadn't missed out on
registration. :-<  Yes! GV was sold out earlier this week!


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 07:39:34 1999
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From: "Elena Rodríguez" <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>
To: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:17:56 +0200
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Hi Mary
I appreciate your conciliatory message; as English is not my first
language
maybe I am missing or missunderstanding the tone of Joseph's comment; I
certainly don't mean to get at anyone, so I am sorry if anyone got it
that way.
In fact, what I meant to comment on is precisely an art-critique point
of view
which assumes this kind of obligation to take sides; it is evident to me
that
there are not just two options or three in art and artistic styles, that
is,
for example "full-blown realism or phantasy";  the possibilities in
between are
endless and one doesn't have to subscribe one particular or already
coined
style; your style might be seen as closer to this or that  but still is
your way
of doing and understanding things. There is no right way or style. Art
is free,
that's the point I tried to make.
Elena
Spain
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mary escribió:

> >Hi mary and all
I appreciate your conciliatory message; as I come from another part of
the world and English is not my first language, I might be
missing/missunderstanding something in Joseph's message; in any case I
don't mean to get at anyone but to comment (and elicit other's views)
precisely on the assumption that an artwork has to fit in with an
already coined style, such as full blown representational realism or
phantasy (abstract?)
The possibilities in between are endless and mix is richness, at least
that's what I think. 


> > > I find the panel very pleasing but for a reservation or two:
> > >
>
> I found Joseph's comments very interesting, and not at all perjorative. His
> observations were, in my opinion, not intended to criticize the panel, but
> critique it as an artwork.
> If I were the artist, I would appreciate all input, as each person's
> viewpoint of the piece is unique and allows the artist to view his own work
> without the passion of ownership.
> I have had many such critiques of my pottery work, and though all of us
> desire to have each piece judged favorably, we learn from constructive
> criticism as well. I remember one instructor, who upon viewing one of my
> "creative" pieces, judged it, "Tacky, tacky, TACKYYYYY!!" In retrospect, and
> free from the sting, she was 100% correct! Not fun, but I can guarantee you
> I used a lighter hand when I next attempted to do a similar piece.
> I personally thought the panel was gorgeous, but learned two things from
> Joseph's post.
> 1. The lore concerning the trunk's placement.
> 2. Very interesting comment regarding full blown realism or fantasy... very
> good observation, in my opinion.
>
> Mary
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 11:32:38 -0400
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>> I personally thought the panel was gorgeous, but learned two things from
>> Joseph's post.
>> 1. The lore concerning the trunk's placement.
>> 2. Very interesting comment regarding full blown realism or fantasy... very
>> good observation, in my opinion.

Yup.  So where did the trunk direction lore part come from? africa? india?
That's an interesting bit of trivia.    I had been to a sanctuary that has
some rescue elephants and was reminded of them immediately when I saw the
panel...nice memory.  
I hadn't considered making a strong (aware) distinction between reality and
fantasy...I was content with a bit of a blend. (New ideas are trying to
creep in here, but I can't read 'em yet) I'm looking at a winter scene
panel I'm designing in a new light and will probably make it much more
exaggerated now.
I'd like a little more talk about this topic if anyone has any thoughts to
share.  
Dee
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Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
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"Elena Rodr=EDguez" wrote:
. There is no right way or style. Art is free, that's the point I tried t=
o make

I think your English is fine--you made your point well.  However, your st=
atement  offers no direction for an individual
seeking to improve their work.  Constructive criticism seeks to reaffirm =
an individual's strength, and  to help that
individual eliminate any weaknesses.

Beginners in any medium certainly need encouragement--it works, and keeps=
 them going, but as one's work advances one
needs help from others who understand the work and can offer an unbiased =
critique.

Email offers an excellent opportunity to do this--since, for the most par=
t, personality issues are minimized by the
absence of face-to-face contact.  How to critique?

 Simple: point out the strengths in the work, and point out the weakness.

If listees could keep these simple things in mind when they view a new pi=
ece, I assure you that both they, and the
individual artist, will  therefore benefit.

Best wishes,
Joseph


--------------0F2FCA98D5BD8A1AFB1D5950--

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 10:41:53 1999
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From: "Byron Wells" <byronw@fastlane.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:18:49 -0500
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Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no luck..


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 11:12:25 1999
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From: "Elena Rodríguez" <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>
To: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:55:18 +0200
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Thanks for your reply Joseph,
I see your point about looking for directions and agree that other's opinion on our work is important to get over
insecurities when beginning (and not only) and learn; but while I think it works fine for technical questions, when it
comes to aesthetic appreciation or taste, I find is a totally different matter. What may be fine for some may be not for
others, that is, what one may see as a weakness might be seen as just the opposite by someone else. Some of the stuff I've
made and didn't quite like myself was gorgeous to other people.. I think stablishing a criteria here, valid for all, is
very difficult. I don't mean to say that discussing aesthetic/taste/likes (or whatever we want to call it) is not on, quite
the opposite.
Elena

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joseph Augusta escribió:

> "Elena Rodríguez" wrote:
> . There is no right way or style. Art is free, that's the point I tried to make
>
> I think your English is fine--you made your point well.  However, your statement  offers no direction for an individual
> seeking to improve their work.  Constructive criticism seeks to reaffirm an individual's strength, and  to help that
> individual eliminate any weaknesses.
>
> Beginners in any medium certainly need encouragement--it works, and keeps them going, but as one's work advances one
> needs help from others who understand the work and can offer an unbiased critique.
>
> Email offers an excellent opportunity to do this--since, for the most part, personality issues are minimized by the
> absence of face-to-face contact.  How to critique?
>
>  Simple: point out the strengths in the work, and point out the weakness.
>
> If listees could keep these simple things in mind when they view a new piece, I assure you that both they, and the
> individual artist, will  therefore benefit.
>
> Best wishes,
> Joseph



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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 11:23:55 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Joseph Augusta" <jaugusta@capecod.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Elephant panel: art critique]
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 10:42:47 -0700
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>>Simple: point out the strengths in the work, and point out the weakness.

If listees could keep these simple things in mind when they view a new pi=
ece, I assure you that both they, and the
individual artist, will  therefore benefit.

Best wishes,
Joseph<<

Some of you may have noticed that I do not comment on very many panels that
are posted by list members. I hold my pen because I do not want to hurt
anyone with my true opinions. Just saying something like, "What a wonderful
panel. The sky really caught my eye." seems like a waste of space and so I
say nothing.

The elephants reminded me of Hanniabils elephants crossing the Alps. Bet
they kept their trunks down when on the march as I believe elephants do.

I can see where trunk up is a valuable consideration but not for these war
elephants crossing the Alps.

All in all I think the panel is just fine. That I would have done a few
things different is not important because it is a small matter of opinion.
Besides, having the example presented it is always easy to make suggestions.

What are the glasses used? I think I see Spectrum for the most part. It
would be my choice for a panel of this nature. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Check it out: http://glass.intrastar.net/bob/indexpage1.htm


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 11:42:56 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "barbara elmore" <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fusing glass help
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:00:36 -0400
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We fuse primarily with Spectrum , however , we also use a fair amount of
Bullseye simply because of their selection of "condiments" frits, fractures,
streamers, etc., and the fact that both Bullseye and Uroboros have some
great irridescents that remain throughout fusing temps.

We have also done some really neat drop-out vases using Moretti glass and
Millifiori slices ( expensive glass though).

Another inexpensive glass is regular old float glass which we use for a lot
of slumped items which we accent with fusemaster transparent enamels for
some really nice effects.

All in all though you can't beat Spectrum when you look at cost and the
finished product.


Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics
-----Original Message-----
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 11:26 AM
Subject: fusing glass help


>
>A friend and I have recently purchased a huge kiln at auction (it's a
>1967 Paragon A99, but still being made as an S99), and although I've
>had two classes in fusing/slumping, we are very much beginners!
>
>Anyone know of any places on the web that might give us more knowledge?
> We're buying the "bible" by Lundstrum, but I can't seem to find out
>much else.
>
>How about good sources for kiln furniture (ours came empty)?
>
>For those who fuse, what is your preferred glass?  We used GNA
>exclusively in class, and it's very good.
>
>I appreciate any and all input!
>
>Thank you!
>Barbara Elmore
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
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>
>

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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 11:57:27 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Byron Wells" <byronw@fastlane.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:52:31 -0400
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Try your local paint store.  I buy mine in a quart container at the local
Duron, they also sell it by the ounce out of their tinting machine.

Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics
-----Original Message-----
From: Byron Wells <byronw@fastlane.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, August 28, 1999 1:58 PM
Subject: Lamp Black


>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no
luck..
>
>
>----
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>

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
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Subject: Re: Elephant panel/Joseph's comments
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:06:58 -0400
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Message text written by "Mary"
>If I were the artist, I would appreciate all input, as each person's
viewpoint of the piece is unique and allows the artist to view his own wo=
rk
without the passion of ownership.<

I am one and I do..... this may be one of the reasons I
actually am able to make a very good living as a full-time
professional artist.  Of course, years of education, formal
training (learning the rules), and experience don't hurt =

either..... ;-D. =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/ =

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: [Fwd: Elephant panel: art critique]
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:07:06 -0400
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Message text written by Joseph Augusta
>
Beginners in any medium certainly need encouragement--it works, and keeps=
=3D
 them going, but as one's work advances one
needs help from others who understand the work and can offer an unbiased =
=3D
critique.
<
Joseph, welcome to bungi!  You must be a trained
teacher!  It comes across loud and clear in your
comments.... please share with us if you are so
inclined.  We have long practiced the posting of
biographies on a weekly basis here at bungi.... but,
our official biographer seems to have disappeared
for a while.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:07:02 -0400
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Message text written by Dee Thompson
>exaggerated now.
I'd like a little more talk about this topic if anyone has any thoughts t=
o
share.  <

I think it would be a good idea if Brandon would let us
know if he wants his elephant panel publicly (and =

possibly professionally) critiqued.  I could certainly
make comments about the strengths and weaknesses
of the piece, privately or publicly, but I have not gotten
an invitation from the artist.

Trying to mind my manners,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "\"Elena =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rodr=EDguez=22?=" <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Elephant panel
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:06:55 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug28.10655.0>
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Message text written by "Elena Rodr=EDguez"
>ART IS FREE,<

My art isn't free.... in fact, I charge quite a lot
for it.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Nancy B Gildersleeve" <nbg3755@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: [glasschat] What kiln do I want?
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:22:23 -0700
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>>I've used a
friend's Quick Fire and could get that or the Jen-Ken bead annealing kiln
(11" x 4") for about the same money.  I'm trying to stay in the $300
range just now.<<

You might look into Evenheat's Hot Box kiln. It is a brick and fiber kiln
with a full 6" shelf, infinite switch, pyrometer and replaceable elements.
There is an optional Jewel Box chamber for annealing beads, etc.. The
annealing chamber also has holes for preheating rods and strips.

I used the Quickfire for years and now that I have two Hot Boxes the
Quickfires just sit. Cost about $300.00.

Bob


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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 13:11:55 -0700
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>>>finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
>http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg
>Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't give
>up the day job
>
>Brandon UK



>>>I'd like a little more talk about this topic if anyone has any thoughts
to
>share.
>
>I think it would be a good idea if Brandon would let us
>know if he wants his elephant panel publicly (and =
>possibly professionally) critiqued. Dani

When Brandon posted the pic he automaticaly opened himself for anything that
comes his way. At least that is my humble opinion.  Bob


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From: seaspray@comox.island.net (seaspray)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 14:00:56 -0700
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>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no luck..

I use the black pigment that paint stores use when they mix the shades and
tints of paint.  Make sure you're buying the actual pigment and NOT
paint...the stuff they measure out in quarter and half ounce squirts that's
on a large carousel.  A little goes a long ways.  When I first started using
it Dani encouraged me to check and make sure it was acceptable, and I found
a old bungi post either from Julie Sloan or containing information from
Julie Sloan that paint pigment was okay.  If I'm incorrect in this, I'm sure
the came experts will correct me!

C.

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Byron Wells" <byronw@fastlane.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:04:47 -0400
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Message text written by "Byron Wells"
>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no
luck..
<

It's tough to find... look for cement colors at
a hardware store.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Fw: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 15:11:07 -0700
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
>=20
> >>>finally got the time to finish another one of my panels
> >http://www.eee.bham.ac.uk/joness/elephants.jpg
> >Hope you like it...Still can not draw properly...  Yeah I know  Don't =
give
> >up the day job
> >
> >Brandon UK
>=20
> >>>I'd like a little more talk about this topic if anyone has any thoug=
hts
> to
> >share.
> >
> >I think it would be a good idea if Brandon would let us
> >know if he wants his elephant panel publicly (and =3D
> >possibly professionally) critiqued. Dani
>=20
> When Brandon posted the pic he automaticaly opened himself for anything=
 that
> comes his way. At least that is my humble opinion.

Mine too though not quite so humble.  100% in agreement.

If ya don't wanna know, don't ask.

Forward elements : fire when ready. <G>

[Actually, real critiques like this are usually entered under the
CASHOUT column.  He is a fortunate fella.]

--=20
HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 16:03:48 1999
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X-Path: capecod.net!jaugusta
From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: Byron Wells <byronw@fastlane.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:15:27 -0400
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Byron Wells wrote:

> Where would I find Lamp Black??

An excellent source for art materials is Douglas & Sturgess in San Francisco--
888-278-7833 or 415-896-6283---they're primarily a sculptor's supply shop but
carry a full line of pigments-- know they have manganese, iron oxide, carbon
(this may be your lampblack), and bone black pigment.

Occasionally they have a catalog--get one if they do--otherwise just tell them
what you need and they'll UPS it to you.  I still use them for most of my art
materials though I'm 3000 miles away from their front door.

As to my background--I'm an painter/sculptor with an MFA from the U. of Mass,
Amherst, many years of exhibiting behind me--I lived and worked for several
years in SoHo, exhibiting neon sculpture at SoHo's premier glass gallery--taught
at the NY Experimental Glass Workshop, relocated to Los Angeles as an instructor
in the Visual Arts Department.  Further teaching experience for the Los Angeles
Dept. of Cultural Affairs..

Presently living on Cape Cod, showing work in Provincetown and
Wellfleet--paintings and sculpture--and joined this list to get some help with a
new material for me--dalle glass--so if anyone wants to swap info--fine with me!

best wishes,
Joseph

PS   If anyone wants to see one of my digital pieces--this one was shown on the
war site *Weak Blood* to celebrate the end of the war in Kosovo:

          http://www.capecod.net/~jaugusta/warisover.jpg


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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:25:19 -0400
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Message text written by Dee Thompson
> =

Actually I did not mean about Brandons' panel, specifically...I REALLY li=
ke
his panel.  I meant about Josephs comment about reality and fantasy...It
sounds like we have a teacher here lurking and I'd like to learn a bit mo=
re
about concepts and theory behind presenting them.
My art classes ended with art 101 in college, decades ago.<


I like the idea of a formal critique, too.  Maybe on a weekly basis?
Only by choice, of course, and with a very clear and definite set
of guidelines.  The sort of thing every college art student goes =

through time and time again!  It's one of the best learning =

experiences available and good training for anyone who ever
expects to submit work for an art show or fair or festival... con-
structive criticism is a gift and this could be the right =

environment to learn how to gracefully take it, and positively
dish it out.  Based on some of the comments that have =

been made, my guess is a lot of people could benefit from the
experience.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: seaspray <seaspray@comox.island.net>
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Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 18:25:17 -0400
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Message text written by seaspray
>If I'm incorrect in this, I'm sure
the came experts will correct me!<

I've also used black acrylic in a pinch....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 16:37:55 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Jospeh's comments
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:09:19 -0400
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You know what? All this talk has inspired me to take pencil to paper and
draw a panel. I have done geometrics and simple line drawings, but not a
"scene" or a depiction of an object. I have shied away from it, since I'm so
new with glass, but I am going to bite the bullet and "Just Do It".
Really, Joseph, Bob, et al, thank you for this discussion. It has certainly
set the creative juices flowing.
Mary


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 16:52:11 1999
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From: "Dave & Lynn Loda" <dandl@crcwnet.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Newy Fagan
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 16:04:12 -0700
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Does anyone have her address or phone #?..  We want to take a Florida
vacation along with learning hot glass, and since she is somewere in
Florida, we can kill two birds with one stone.

Thanks

Dave & Lynn Loda
Art Glass of Wenatchee

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Subject: Classifieds
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:32:49 EDT
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Our church is looking to sell its stained glass windows.  Is there a 
classified section where we can advertise them?
RevEdd2@aol.com [Rev. Edd Wilder]
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:56:06 -0700
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Dani Greer wrote:

> I like the idea of a formal critique, too.  Maybe on a weekly basis?
> Only by choice, of course, and with a very clear and definite set
> of guidelines.  The sort of thing every college art student goes =3D
>=20
> through time and time again!  It's one of the best learning =3D
>=20
> experiences available and good training for anyone who ever
> expects to submit work for an art show or fair or festival... con-
> structive criticism is a gift and this could be the right =3D
>=20
> environment to learn how to gracefully take it, and positively
> dish it out.  Based on some of the comments that have =3D
>=20
> been made, my guess is a lot of people could benefit from the
> experience.


A weekly art critique. Seems like a great idea to me.

In my opinion comments should non-personal and relatively detached.=20
None of this luvie-duvie woohoo cutesie kissie stuff.  Such comments
have their place, but are basically useless, not a critique in any case,
and the creator will not grow/learn from such comments.  None of the
converse either.  If you don't like it, either don't say anything or do
so in clear descriptive unambiguous unemotional terms. =20

Joseph's comments should be a model.

No tech stuff ... this is for expressive side of our creations. =20

Why don't you take the lead on this Dani.  You decide (on whatever basis
you want) which piece is to be critiqued.  Just an idea, but perhaps
beginners should take precedence? =20

I like this idea so much I'll donate webspace when/if necessary for the
posting because not everyone has a website available to post at.  A
central spot might be a good idea anyway.

OK ... bbq time ... later

--=20
HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez
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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 23:39:23 1999
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From: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
To: Glass List <glass@bungi.com.>
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Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:13:52 +1200
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I have heard the opposite lore regard the position of the trunk.  I was told that
a trunk held up was not good as an Elephant was most comfortable with it down (how
do we know?) and usually only lifted it in the air when he was angry or washing
etc, which left him vulnerable.

--
     -Tina Booth-
-Knowledge is true opinion-
       -Plato-


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From owner-glass Sat Aug 28 23:52:34 1999
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From: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: fusing glass help
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 02:20:01 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199908290620.CAA07992@spamraaa.compuserve.com>
Precedence: bulk

Kiln Furniture can be found at many glass retailers/wholesalers and Pottery
stores.
As far as web info on fusing it tends to be specs on the softening point of the
manufacturers glass but the basics of the art of fusing in found in books such
as Boyce Lundstroms (3), Dan Fentons Notes on Glass under heat, Keith Cummings
book on fusing, Gil Reynolds.  If you live in a city where there are classes
from
a local expert this is a great help for issues on addressing specific issues of
running your kiln, why certain glasses are problematic to fuse.  if your town
ever has the Bullseye road tour go to it don't miss it.  They have 600 samples
of tiles that show different effects you can get.

Some magazines to consider are Glass Craftsman out of Richboro, PA and Glass Art
out of Highlands Ranch CO.  A friend showed me a copy of Neu Glass which I
believe
was a German publication that was quite nice but don't know particulars on it.
Anyone else out there with other magazines to consider??????

I prefer Bullseye and Uroboros they are very dependable and don't tend to be
problematic.  I do use Spectrum but find the baroques that have white and clear
to be problematic and a challenge to work with GNA is very nice but
expenseive.  
I'm anxious to try the Kokomo fuseables as they have such interesting colors
but would love to hear from anyone who's tried them (if they are available yet).

My word of advise to a beginner is don't be afraid to experiment, take good
notes when you fuse, if it fails pick peoples brains to analyse why.  Sometimes
mistakes can be a blessing and give a new art form.

Protect your eyes by using dididium glass (at a minimum sunglasses with UV
protection).  Wear cotten clothing if doing crash cooling or glass
manipulations.
Buy kiln gloves do not use hot holders.


>
>A friend and I have recently purchased a huge kiln at auction (it's a
>1967 Paragon A99, but still being made as an S99), and although I've
>had two classes in fusing/slumping, we are very much beginners!
>
>Anyone know of any places on the web that might give us more knowledge?
> We're buying the "bible" by Lundstrum, but I can't seem to find out
>much else.  
>
>How about good sources for kiln furniture (ours came empty)?  
>
>For those who fuse, what is your preferred glass?  We used GNA
>exclusively in class, and it's very good.
>
>I appreciate any and all input!
>
>Thank you!
>Barbara Elmore
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
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>
>

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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fusing glass help
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 00:28:53 -0700
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>>I'm anxious to try the Kokomo fuseables as they have such interesting
colors
but would love to hear from anyone who's tried them (if they are available
yet).<<

I have had excellent luck in fusing run of the mill Kokomo with Spectrum.
Anti devitrification spray is necessary with both when going to full fuse.

Bob

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 04:11:57 1999
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From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
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Someone noted that a previous post contained MIME coding---don't know
how it happened---since I checked and it's turned off-- but turned it on
and off again--sometimes that works---

Best wishes,
Joseph

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 04:43:26 1999
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From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Crits etc.
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:04:44 -0400
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To formally organizing crits you need a person to monitor and count
listees' participation---best model I've encountered is on a couple of
creative writing lists from the U. of Penn.  Here's how they work:

Each listee is *required*  to crit a number of pieces per month---crits
are counted and if you're short a couple of months in a row--you're
dropped from the list.

Submissions--well, they're not forced, if you don't have any for a while
that's OK.

Crits *must* be relative to the piece itself and stay on the subject.
Personal comments about the writer, soapbox speeches, warm, fuzzy stuff,
and me-too's not allowed---this means that submissions are
monitored---and you'll be dropped if you don't fight clean! :-)

So, it's a bit of work to run the list properly.  But, as I've said
before---you'll learn as much, if not more about your art by giving
crits than by receiving them.  And no, I don't have time to do it---but,
I'll crit listee's work if you like--on one condition---that I find
something interesting in the work to discuss.  After all, I'm not being
paid to discuss *everyone's* work like in my former sculpture classes at
UCLA!

Best wishes,
Joseph

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 06:14:50 1999
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X-Path: pd.jaring.my!shakabe
From: "Shakeel Abedi" <shakabe@pd.jaring.my>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 20:37:30 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.43730.0>
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I would a rather a rejection from one the knows, than a thousand praises
from one that does not.

Joseph Agusta's critique was in my opinion right. In his own way. The lore
about the elephant's trunk was interesting, but I can't seem to place it's
authority. But incidents come to mind .... from my part of the world
(India).

1. M F Hussein's painting which shows a charging elephants was quite well
accepted and sold for a high price.

2. A much older incident, there is a painting in the Salar Jung Museum of
Hyderabad (India) (which is I believe the largest one man collection) that
depicts an elephant with it's trunk and feet up. It is said the artist
painted it first with the trunk down and Salar Jung sent it back to France
saying that it was not majestic enough. He never got to see it. He was dead
by the time the re-done painting returned. Was that bad luck? Never though
about it until Joseph's comments.

Warm Regards

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, August 29, 1999 12:51 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Elephant panel: art critique]


|This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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| Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:11:58 -0400
|Message-ID: <37C80A5F.66720283@capecod.net>
|Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 12:12:15 -0400
|From: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
|X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I)
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|MIME-Version: 1.0
|To: Elena =3D?iso-8859-1?Q?Rodr=3DEDguez?=3D <elere@clientes.euskaltel.es=
|>
|CC: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
|Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
|References: <<008401bef14b$9e24b6c0$40f866a6@net.mediaone.net>> <1999Aug2=
|8.181756.0>
|Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Diso-8859-1
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|
|"Elena Rodr=EDguez" wrote:
|. There is no right way or style. Art is free, that's the point I tried t=
|o make
|
|I think your English is fine--you made your point well.  However, your st=
|atement  offers no direction for an individual
|seeking to improve their work.  Constructive criticism seeks to reaffirm =
|an individual's strength, and  to help that
|individual eliminate any weaknesses.
|
|Beginners in any medium certainly need encouragement--it works, and keeps=
| them going, but as one's work advances one
|needs help from others who understand the work and can offer an unbiased =
|critique.
|
|Email offers an excellent opportunity to do this--since, for the most par=
|t, personality issues are minimized by the
|absence of face-to-face contact.  How to critique?
|
| Simple: point out the strengths in the work, and point out the weakness.
|
|If listees could keep these simple things in mind when they view a new pi=
|ece, I assure you that both they, and the
|individual artist, will  therefore benefit.
|
|Best wishes,
|Joseph
|
|
|--------------0F2FCA98D5BD8A1AFB1D5950--
|
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|Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
|

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 06:45:17 1999
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From: "Susan C. Reitmann" <oddjob@scc.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Sprinkler Instructions
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:53:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.2538.0>
Precedence: bulk

For all of you that requested the instructions and photos:
I want to let all of you know that I haven't forgotten or lost your 
request.

Seems I have run into a small snafu. I wrote what I could and took the 
photos. I then sent them off to be proof read and completed. I also needed 
my daughter to arrange to have them posted on her website as I know the 
Bungi rule about posting attachments. Well, Tracy and I are ready with our 
parts but I don't have the completed (technical sections) back yet.

I know it has been about 10 days now but I don't want to send out something 
that is not accurate, causing frustration in correcting any errors.( the 
old measure twice, cut once theory.)

As soon as I receive them back I will post a message giving the website 
address.
Thanks for your patience and understanding.
Sue Reitmann( Mpls,MN)

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 07:46:55 1999
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X-Path: email.msn.com!EastGateXX
From: "EastGateXX@msn.com" <EastGateXX@email.msn.com>
To: "Bungi" <Glass@Bungi.com>
Subject: Re: art critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 07:12:19 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.01219.0>
References: <<1999Aug28.12566.0>>
Organization: Microsoft Corporation
Precedence: bulk

Sounds good to me.  I'd love to "grow" from the benefit of ongoing
critiques.

I find them always to be a source of introspection - no matter how
"personal" to the author.  (Actually I've never heard an opinion that wasn't
a demonstration of a personal point of view.  Is there such a thing?)

A "bad" critique can be as instructional as a "good" one - if you know what
I mean.

Thanks,
Alan
EastGate Productions
EastGateXX@msn.com

----- Original Message -----
From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: art critique


>
>
> Dani Greer wrote:
>
> > I like the idea of a formal critique, too.  Maybe on a weekly basis?
> > Only by choice, of course, and with a very clear and definite set
> > of guidelines.  The sort of thing every college art student goes =3D
> >=20
> > through time and time again!  It's one of the best learning =3D
> >=20
> > experiences available and good training for anyone who ever
> > expects to submit work for an art show or fair or festival... con-
> > structive criticism is a gift and this could be the right =3D
> >=20
> > environment to learn how to gracefully take it, and positively
> > dish it out.  Based on some of the comments that have =3D
> >=20
> > been made, my guess is a lot of people could benefit from the
> > experience.
>
>
> A weekly art critique. Seems like a great idea to me.
>
> In my opinion comments should non-personal and relatively detached.=20
> None of this luvie-duvie woohoo cutesie kissie stuff.  Such comments
> have their place, but are basically useless, not a critique in any case,
> and the creator will not grow/learn from such comments.  None of the
> converse either.  If you don't like it, either don't say anything or do
> so in clear descriptive unambiguous unemotional terms. =20
>
> Joseph's comments should be a model.
>
> No tech stuff ... this is for expressive side of our creations. =20
>
> Why don't you take the lead on this Dani.  You decide (on whatever basis
> you want) which piece is to be critiqued.  Just an idea, but perhaps
> beginners should take precedence? =20
>
> I like this idea so much I'll donate webspace when/if necessary for the
> posting because not everyone has a website available to post at.  A
> central spot might be a good idea anyway.
>
> OK ... bbq time ... later
>
> --=20
> HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez
> ----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 10:15:30 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Elephant panel critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 12:01:25 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.12125.0>
Precedence: bulk

Maybe I missed something - I am still not sure what the inspiration was for
this panel.  Was this a requested work, or a  personal piece?  I am not a
stained glass artist, only starting in glass as a hobby, but I think the
artist's intention would be critical.  I think establishing a system for
critiquing work is valuable if that is what the artist wants, and it is
discussed or asked for.  I have seen many other posts where someone says
"just finished a panel" and they don't draw this kind of discussion.  Again,
just curious?  What's different?

Tami (sometimes artist/always marketing person)

" Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss it, you will land among the stars."
Les Brown


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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 11:47:21 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Joseph Augusta <jaugusta@capecod.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Crits etc.
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:08:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.1082.0>
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Message text written by Joseph Augusta
>So, it's a bit of work to run the list properly.<

I don't have time to do this properly either though
I will certainly participate.... can someone follow up
on Joseph's excellent suggestions and propose a
formal critique procedure that we can launch soon?
Also, maybe Glenna would be willing to post the
critique pieces on the bungi web page weekly for us
to peruse.... we could even critique one of her pieces
first! LOL.  More ideas?

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 11:57:55 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tina Booth <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:07:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.10758.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Tina Booth
>I have heard the opposite lore regard the position of the trunk.  I was
told that
a trunk held up was not good as an Elephant was most comfortable with it
down (how
do we know?) and usually only lifted it in the air when he was angry or
washing
etc, which left him vulnerable.
<
I'll ask a friend today, whose father was a rogue elephant
hunter and missionary in Africa.... =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 12:06:28 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Elephant panel critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:08:06 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.1086.0>
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Message text written by "Tami Siddens"
>Again,
just curious?  What's different?<

We were honored to have a new bungi member, Joseph,
who is also a teacher post a very good critique.... and
that started the discussion.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 12:16:19 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Shakeel Abedi" <shakabe@pd.jaring.my>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Elephant panel: art critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:08:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.1084.0>
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Message text written by "Shakeel Abedi"
>I would a rather a rejection from one the knows, than a thousand praises=

from one that does not.
<

Amen!  But, better yet, praise from one who knows!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 12:17:35 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: fusing glass help
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:08:00 -0400
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Message text written by Delores Taylor
>Anyone else out there with other magazines to consider??????<

Well, Common Ground:Glass, of course!  The "newsletter" of
the International Guild of Glass Artists.  I write for it, so does
pj friend, Christie Wood, Steve Richard, Albert Lewis... who else
on bungi?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 12:24:59 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: art critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:07:56 -0400
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Message text written by rrk
>
No tech stuff ... this is for expressive side of our creations.  =


Why don't you take the lead on this Dani.  You decide (on whatever basis
you want) which piece is to be critiqued.  Just an idea, but perhaps
beginners should take precedence?  =


I only do critiques based first and foremost on the technical/rules
side-- being a formally trained artist..... then we get to the creative
side, were the rules broken well, etc.  When an artist doesn't =

spend the time to learn the basics, there's often not a whole lot
to critique.  On the other hand, a good critique session is as good
a place as any to learn the basics.....

Best regards,

Dani Greer
<

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 12:26:13 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: critiquing
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 09:53:17 -0700
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As for judging the merit of the "art".........you all know the old saying!
As for critiquing the workpersonship or technique.......NO matter how good
you think it is, something can usually be improved.
I still learn from going over my shades with an eye for what can be
improved.
I sincerely appreciate the time someone takes to make suggestions,
As I have gotten fairly good at it, the improvements usually are subtle
ones, as to color phasing, use of color, non-repetitive repeats of the same
glass usage and where I will place the emphasis, that is a tied together
background, a separate background, or a continuation of a color theme which
places some parts of the shade separate or included in the flow of the
shade. Easier to do than to say.
I have had some of my work juried (with a dental pick) by someone (a
professional) who I respect for their acumen and shade making. I endured
this gladly!
Most jurors/critiquers will express their choices for color and rarely for
the techniques involved. I usually IGNORE the "why did you choose THAT
COLOR"!

Most colored glass work that "tries" to depict fauna is hard to execute as
glass is not the best medium to use. Usually it falls in between real and
stylized.

'nuf for now...... enjoy, H

weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Elephant panel critique
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:34:16 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.143416.0>
Precedence: bulk

I think it is wonderful that we have a new member, and I am certainly not
taking anything from Joseph.  I just thought I missed something.  I even
rechecked my messages to find an answer to the question regarding the
inspiration for the piece.  Someone else asked the question also.  If the
panel was made for a certain purpose that would explain the placement of the
trunk, etc.  Come on Brandon, where are you???

Tami

"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
Eleanor Roosevelt



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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 14:49:04 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Crit question
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:33:31 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.73331.0>
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Just a question. Being the kind of hobbyist that almost never does
anything twice, and 99% are my own designs, would it be possible to
submit an original pattern? I am very proficient in photoshop, and
could make an accurate mockup of what I plan the window to look like
using samples of glass photos. I have 3 or 4 ideas running around in my
brain right now, and no one who is "in the know" to bounce them off of.
For me, this would be a great help. I do understand this wasnt the
origianl idea, and realize it could be too far off base from what
everyone is trying to do. 
Danke Shoen for listening.
chris

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 16:18:44 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: elephant art
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:21:00 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.10210.0>
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I have four pieces of Thai art that have depiction of elephants in battle
scenes, all with trunk down and one foot raised.  so go figure?  cj

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 17:18:04 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: question for the group...
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:51:49 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.95149.0>
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Hi =)

I'm chris, a glass hobbyist, and information junkie. I mostly lurk in
this group, occasionally throwing an idea or thought out there. As some
of you may know, I have a webpage where I archive information I come
across while web surfing, and write to ask permission to add. Its
strictly a labor of love for me I make absolutely no gains from it
other than a personal sense of accomplishment. Archiving and
researching is in my blood. Anyways...My question is this. I have been
poking through the Bungi archives, and there is by far THE MOST
information stored there than anywhere else I have seen. It's like a
secret treasure! But going through all the posts can be a very time
consuming and daunting project if you are looking for sometime
specific. What I would like to do is go through the archives, sort the
pertinent information only, excluding all personal info like greetings
and so forth, and save the information in a very informal webpage
format. For instance, the options would be; soldering, fusing, cutting,
copper tubing, vessels, cleaning, cementing, safety and on and on and
on. I feel this would be an extremely valuable tool to newbies and
oldbies alike. =) I would be happy to give this info to be stored on
the bungi site, and of course I would like to add it to mine, but as
always, the credit for the information would go to Bungi and IGGA. And,
if you folks, or Bungi decided it should only be available on Bungi, I
would understand that, and just provide a link to it. My aim is not
personal glory, it is the sharing of knowledge. Honestly, I have wanted
to do this since the first day I found those archives, but was too
chicken to ask. =P
Thank you for your consideration.
Chris

if you would like to see my archive:
http://members.spree.com/thearts/glassarchive/

if you would like to email me directly:
christkaiser@yahoo.com

__________________________________________________
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Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 19:20:59 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: question for the group...
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:40:17 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug29.174017.0>
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>and daunting project if you are looking for sometime
specific. What I would like to do is go through the archives, sort the
pertinent information only, excluding all personal info like greetings
and so forth, and save the information in a very informal webpage
format. For instance, the options would be; soldering, fusing, cutting,
copper tubing, vessels, cleaning, cementing, safety and on and on and
on.<

Albert Lewis has already started the job of archiving these
records and I am certain would love the help and involvment
of another soul!  You are correct, Chris, there is a wealth of
information and it is difficult to maneuver through.  Would
you contact Albert through bungi and get an update from
him?  He'll be returning from a trip to the continent I believe
on September 2nd.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 19:52:12 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Glass Visions was wonderful :o)
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 22:29:59 -0000
Message-ID: <199908300228.WAA25987@uz.ComCAT.COM>
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Hi :o)

Tulsa Suzanne here...on Suzanne Albright's computer...
Just gotta tell ya what a wonderful time I had at 
Glass Visions.  Gotta head to the Philadelphia airport
early early in the am...and head to DFW and Tulsa.

I met some *wonderful* people!  Should I make you
all just wonder who they were?

Learned alot from Joe Porcelli regarding patina...anything
you wanna know? ;o)  His workshop was informative and 
detailed. 

Met Bob Oddy. ( I pronounce his name correctly now)  What 
a really nice man!  Saw several of his panels in person.  WOW! 
To say I am impressed by his amazing talent is understatement..
and his personality is even better.  :o)

I've lost my voice! hahahaha...you'd know why if you'd been there.

Charles and Marianne, you did good.  It was a wonderful and informative
weekend.  It was great to finally meet you in person.  Thank you for 
everything.

I got the most gorgeous youghiogheny glass!  Really enjoyed visiting with
and getting to know  the "Yough guys" and all the really great Bungians
I was fortunate enough to meet.  I consider myself so lucky to know you
all. 

I left alot out.  You should see Suzanne's house.....it is *way* cool.  
She has
wonderful windows which display alot of really wonderful work she has 
done.  (Ive taken pictures)

Thats all Im telling for now....Im pooped.
Sparks was sparkin! ;o)

T Suz

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 21:24:12 1999
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From: Tim Byrnes <tbyrnes@iconn.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Glass Visions and Beyond
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 23:55:29 -0400
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Hello
 The show was a wonderful experience for me this time, cause I had a
better idea of what to expect.  I have to ask the two ladies that were
checking out some glass while I was waiting my turn in line, to please
respond to this post, cause I can't remember there names. They were
looking at some god awful green glass, I have to admit it would look
good in a pond scene.  Then this morning they were loading more glass
into there white chysler mini-van. It sure was great to meet some people
that I have enjoyed there post on the bungi list. Well  now it's time to
start cutting, foiling, and soldering some of the supplies together so I
can earn some more money.  Well I hope everyone has arrive home safely
from PA.
Peace and Pleasant dreams,
Tim Byrnes  aka George

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From owner-glass Sun Aug 29 21:54:15 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "Tina Booth" <TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz>, "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re:NG  Elephant trunk placement and luck? 
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 00:19:52 -0000
Message-ID: <199908300417.AAA04544@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

I have a friend who has collected elephants for about 50 years.  She 
tells me the up held trunk means luck.

I have always thought that belief to be  similar to the horse shoe over 
at door.  Turned up it is able to *catch the luck...upside down it spills 
out.

I prefer to believe that whether things are going well or not for me has 
more to do with my attitude than what my horse's shoes are doing. (unless 
I am riding)  If I see a beautiful elephant whose trunk is down...I wont 
buy it for my friend...but perhaps for myself.

Tulsa Suzanne

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 02:25:20 1999
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X-Path: stainedglass.co.uk!studio
From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re:  Lead repair
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 1999 22:26:40 +0100
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990827222640.007a2100@mailhost.stainedglass.co.uk>
References: <<1999Aug27.43634.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Shari wrote:
>
>>Would anyone do it this way, rather than just remove the broken piece by
>>lifting the lead up on one side? Neither way sounds exactly easy, but
>taking
>>the panel apart like that sounds like a lot more work and more chances to
>>never get it back together quite right again...
>>
>>What d'ya think?
>>
>>Shari

We have found that the only way to replace a broken piece so you cant see
it has been repaired is to part dis-assemble the panel to the broken piece
then replace and re-assemble.  Of course not all repairs are "worth" (to
the owner) the cost of having this done.
We try to explain to a householder that an in-situ repair  (bending the
leaf and inserting a new piece while the window is still in the
door/window) will usually look unsightly, as the lead will nearly always be
deformed to a greater or lesser effect depending on the condition and width
of the lead, and so they should at least be willing to pay for the panel to
be removed and worked on flat if they dont want it to look cobbled.
In the early years Sam used to undertake this kind of cheap repair work,
but was never happy with the results or the amount the householder felt
they "should" pay for "just an hours or so work", so now we wont take on
in-situ work except on exceptional circumstances.  
Apart from the fact that it is hard to get a true recompense for travel and
other expenses plus an hourly rate for the work done, if the lead is in any
way rough looking after the repair it reflects badly on us!  An ugly repair
is just no recommendation towards getting other work.
We do pass on enquiries to other local businesses if the customer is not
willing to pay for a "proper" repair - but we always make sure that the
customer appreciates that an in-situ repair is not the neatest option, and
that the window will definitely not look "as good as old" - which it would
if they could budget for a workshop partial rebuild either by us or another
studio.
And we have also encouraged potential customers to learn how to work with
leaded windows if they have several repair jobs that ought to be done but
not the budget for a professional job.  For the keen d-i-y-er the option of
learning the skills and buying the basic tools to carry out their own
rebuilds would not cost much more than paying for a couple of badly damaged
windows to be repaired!  
So if you already have the skills to make leaded panels it really isnt too
much of a job to replace a broken piece invisibly - and by doing it you
will be getting experience of another aspect of traditional leaded window
work which will stand you in good stead in the future.
Regards
Elizabeth
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk
Elizabeth Law
Bournemouth Stained Glass
790 Wimborne Road
Bournemouth
Dorset
BH9 2DX
Tel : 01202 514734
Fax : 01202 250239
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 02:39:52 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Test - please ignore
Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:51:00 +0100
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Though I am getting plenty of bungi mail, neither of the messages I posted
the last couple of days have shown up yet, so I am posting this as a test.
Dont bother to reply as I shall be able to see it if it works.
elizabeth
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 02:52:42 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 19:18:57 +0100
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References: <<1999Aug28.71849.0>>
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At 12:18 28/08/99 -0500, Byron wrote:
>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no luck..

As far as I have been able to discover it used to be collected off the
shades of old paraffin/oil lamps and is nothing more than the carbon
deposit from the flame.
Maybe you could collect your own by burning a few candles and holding an
old plate or similar just above the flame to catch the sooty bits?
Regards
Elizabeth 
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 06:31:28 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, "'seaspray@comox.island.net'"
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: transmitting visa numbers
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:29:26 -0400
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You could just send her an emails with 21 numbers, have her subtract her
credit card number and sent the result.

Note the first 16 digits are the number the last 4 the expiration date.

Vic M.

-----Original Message-----
From: seaspray@comox.island.net [mailto:seaspray@comox.island.net]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:15 PM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: transmitting visa numbers


Hi all.

One of my internet clients came up with a new and interesting (and I think,
safe) was to transmit her visa number to me to cover the cost of her panel.

She sent 5 emails...4 numbers in each, plus the expiry date in the last
message. That way if an email is intercepted by some grubby person it's of
no use to them.

Seems like a very creative idea to me, and thought I'd pass it on.

C.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 07:02:29 1999
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From: Rita Tidwell <tidwell2@bellsouth.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: round piece
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 09:18:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.5183.0>
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What's the trick to getting a piece (finished) perfectly round. I did
one with an 8 section border, small, 8". It looked fine but after
foiling it seemed not as symmetrical. Sorry to be so inefficient but
y'all offered. Thanks, Rita

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 08:02:40 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: transmitting visa numbers
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:20:17 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
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Modiano, Victor wrote:
> 
> You could just send her an emails with 21 numbers, have her subtract her
> credit card number and sent the result.
> 
> Note the first 16 digits are the number the last 4 the expiration date.
> 
> Vic M.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: seaspray@comox.island.net [mailto:seaspray@comox.island.net]
> Sent: Friday, August 27, 1999 6:15 PM
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: transmitting visa numbers
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> One of my internet clients came up with a new and interesting (and I think,
> safe) was to transmit her visa number to me to cover the cost of her panel.
> 
> She sent 5 emails...4 numbers in each, plus the expiry date in the last
> message. That way if an email is intercepted by some grubby person it's of
> no use to them.
> 
> Seems like a very creative idea to me, and thought I'd pass it on.
> 
> C.
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> ----
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there's another method that's been sent to my mother where she works.
the people are sending a picture of the credit card itself. and it's
sent as a gif. so people in between would have a much harder time
getting it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 08:35:20 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: question for the group...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:05:44 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.7544.0>
References: <<1999Aug29.95149.0>>
Precedence: bulk

On Sun, 29 Aug 1999, Chris Kaiser wrote:
> Hi =)
> <<snip>>
> ...My question is this. I have been
> poking through the Bungi archives, and there is by far THE MOST
> information stored there than anywhere else I have seen. It's like a
> secret treasure! But going through all the posts can be a very time
> consuming and daunting project if you are looking for sometime
> specific. What I would like to do is go through the archives, sort the
> pertinent information only, excluding all personal info like greetings
> and so forth, and save the information in a very informal webpage
> format. For instance, the options would be; soldering, fusing, cutting,
> copper tubing, vessels, cleaning, cementing, safety and on and on and
> on... <snip>

Chris,
Hello and welcome to Bungi.  
I joined Bungi about 1 year ago, in that time I have enjoyed the list.

In the beginning I spent many hours reading through the entire Bungi
archive and also thought it contained many volumes worth of
valuable SG information.  Over the past 6 months I have spent a lot of 
time thinking about extracting the information from the archives to
produce a list of FAQ's.  The problem I have encountered is that
there is so much information (both SG related and non SG) that extracting
the wheat from the chaff is difficult.  What I have done is to 'download'
and save each months archive to my PC.  I wrote a couple of programs to
remove a lot of the email header and trailer information, this reduces the
volume of data but does not really help in separating out the SG knowledge
which is contained in each email.  Then when I need information on a SG
subject I search through these files reading only those emails which match
the search.  I have even gone so far as to go through some of the files by
hand and edit out much of the extraneous non SG information.  This process
of editing out the chaff is very judgemental.  Does a post advance the
knowledge or not.  It is also very time consuming as each email must be
read then a decision made to keep it or remove it.  If kept, it has to be
categorized into a subject (along the lines of you suggest above). 

Through July 1999 there are approximately 25000 emails contained in the
Bungi archive with about 700 to 1000 added each month.

If you would like to pursue this project I would be glad to help.  Feel
free to get in touch with me to discuss it further.

Jim
  

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 08:53:20 1999
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: studio@stainedglass.co.uk, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:03:19 EDT
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Somewhere I remember an article about somebody making a rotating jar above a 
sooty flame and having a razor blade off to one side scraping the stuff into 
a second container..might have been in an old Sci American or the boy 
sientist or something...

Regards
Jack (ie. "garbagebrain")
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 09:03:50 1999
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From: "J&RinMonroe" <72867@trellis.net>
To: "Chris Kaiser" <christkaiser@yahoo.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: question for the group...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 10:26:49 -0400
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Hi Chris,

I for one would love for you to provide your archieve service for bungi.
Your website looked like it would be most helpful for finding info.  Keep up
the research work-please.

Tha;nks,
Roseanne

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 09:21:41 1999
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From: seaspray@comox.island.net (seaspray)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: round piece
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 08:30:18 -0700
Message-ID: <199908301530.IAA23427@mimas.island.net>
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>What's the trick to getting a piece (finished) perfectly round. I did
>one with an 8 section border, small, 8". It looked fine but after
>foiling it seemed not as symmetrical. Sorry to be so inefficient but
>y'all offered. Thanks, Rita

Rita...if you're not satisfied with the piece you've got, try framing it in
zinc came that's been bent to the right size round with a came bender (your
retailer probably has one you can use).  Alternately you could try framing
in 1/4" U lead came but if it's really not round, that won't help a lot.

Best solution...cut an 8" round hold in a piece of cardboard or thin
plywood.  Place that frame over your pattern design.  After you've cut, you
may need to grind some of your pieces so they fit perfectly within this circle.

C.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 09:35:09 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!nadinesfolly
From: Nadine Beth Schneider <nadinesfolly@erols.com>
To: Tim Byrnes <tbyrnes@iconn.net>, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: re: Glass Visions and Beyond
Date: 30 Aug 99 12:00:55 -0500
Message-ID: <199908301559.LAA15093@smtp2.erols.com>
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Hi Tim!

I was the driver of the minivan and my
partner in glass picking was KSee.  In
fact, I just unwrapped all my glass and
re-admired my *beautiful* green pond
glass.  It sure was nice meeting you and
having the chance to talk in realtime.

Glass Visions was  wonderful and meeting
so many bungians plus Charles and
Marianne was a real pleasure!

I, too, hope everyone made it home
safely and I'll look forward to hearing
from y'all.

Nadine


www.nadinesfolly.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 10:07:36 1999
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From: ACASADO@webtv.net (ALI CASADO)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Fuse Masters enamel  powder
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:29:29 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.82929.0>
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Has anyone used or know about Fuse Masters enamel powder?  I understand
there are different applications for it.  ie. sifting, painting,
sponging,etc. but I have no clue what the outcome is when fired, and at
what temperare it can be fired to.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 10:23:52 1999
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From: ACASADO@webtv.net (ALI CASADO)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: glass frit
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 12:37:03 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.8373.0>
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Glenna,
You mentioned you have used frit.  I haven't, but I really would like to
try it.  How did you like working with it and  the results.  Exactly how
did you use it and is it compatible with other glass and dichroic glass
(which I love to use).
If anyone else has had good or  bad results with frit I would appreciate
hearing from you.
Thanks.
Ali

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 10:37:04 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: question for the group...
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:12:22 -0400
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Message text written by Jim Gonzalez
>
If you would like to pursue this project I would be glad to help.  Feel
free to get in touch with me to discuss it further.

Jim<


Marvelous!  Please both of you talk to Albert Lewis about
this.... he, too, has started archiving this information.  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 11:12:40 1999
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From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG: Glass Visions Thank You
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:38:59 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.93859.0>
References: <<199908301559.LAA15093@smtp2.erols.com>>
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I also just returned from GV and would like to add my thank you
to Charles and Marianne for the wonderful weekend.  A special thank you
for the Saturday morning breakfast with E.  My wife and I still get over
how neat and CLEAN the whole place is, even the warehouse section is
spotless.

It was great to be able to put a face with many fellow Bungians.  No one
looked at all like they do in email.

Thanks,
Jim

ps If I get time this week I will try to put into the computer my notes
from Joe Porcelli's presentation on Patina.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 11:37:36 1999
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X-Path: heesun.com!keane
From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "ALI CASADO" <ACASADO@webtv.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Fuse Masters enamel  powder
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 13:30:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.93016.0>
Precedence: bulk

We use Fusemaster Enamel powders primarily by brush and with an airbrush.
We mix with fusemaster friendly medium and water and apply to 1/4" and up
clear float glass and fire to about 1175-125 degrees F to slump.
The colors are nice and the product applies easily.  We use these more than
the Unique Glass colors as we have been happier with the final fired colors.

My wife has also applied these using stencils and a stencil brush and has
achieved some dramatic results.


Hope this helps
Robert

Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics
-----Original Message-----
From: ALI CASADO <ACASADO@webtv.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 1:22 PM
Subject: Fuse Masters enamel powder
>Has anyone used or know about Fuse Masters enamel powder?  I understand
>there are different applications for it.  ie. sifting, painting,
>sponging,etc. but I have no clue what the outcome is when fired, and at
>what temperare it can be fired to.
>
>----


>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 12:07:18 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: ACASADO@webtv.net (ALI CASADO), glass
Subject: Re: glass frit
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 11:31:12 PDT
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[In the message entitled "glass frit" on Aug 30, 12:37, ALI CASADO writes:]
> Glenna,
> You mentioned you have used frit.  I haven't, but I really would like to
> try it.  How did you like working with it and  the results.  Exactly how
> did you use it and is it compatible with other glass and dichroic glass
> (which I love to use).
> If anyone else has had good or  bad results with frit I would appreciate
> hearing from you.

I've used the fine frit.  What I did was sprinkled it ontop of a stencil
(which sat on some clear glass) then I removed the stencil.  I was left
with the design,..then topped it again with a clear piece of glass.
Put it in the kiln.
This made a square tile with a pattern imbedded inbetween.

:


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 12:35:42 1999
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From: Elaine <wmagdycz@massed.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG: Glass Visions Thank You
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 14:54:15 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.105415.0>
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Jim...I am sure that many others besides me would appreciate having
you take the time to put your Joe Porcelli notes online. Thank you for
the offer. Elaine 

Jim Gonzalez wrote:
> 
> ps If I get time this week I will try to put into the computer my notes
> from Joe Porcelli's presentation on Patina.
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 14:03:25 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NG: Glass Visions 
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:30:19 -0400
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I thought about all you lucky folks that got to go, all weekend...and with
a good bit of envy.  
Please please post about the patina workshop, that's one I would love to
attend.
can you tell me why my brass colored patina appears mottled after a while?
Seems brass at first, but down the road it gets dark, irregularly. 
give us stay at homes a vicarious trip... :-)
Dee
>
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 14:55:33 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com, toby@northlights.co.uk, marianne@warner-criv.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions - Thank You
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 17:01:50 EDT
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I would like to express a great Thank You to Charles and Marianne Warner for 
their hospitality, for giving me such a warm welcome to Allentown and  for 
the great pleasure of attending Glass Visions this weekend.
The breakfast was greatly appreciated, especially considering how many other 
things Charles and Marianne had on their minds.

Also of enormous pleasure, was the many smiling faces of people I have known 
for quite a few years, but only now had the opportunity to meet face to face. 
It was really wonderful. ....and wasn't Pierre truly wonderful...!

The dinner later on Saturday was truly manic, chaotic and great fun, Sparks 
bringing in extra lighting from her van, which she then occasionally picked 
up from the table, semaphoring to the bewildered waitresses when further 
attention was required....

To those villains who presented me with a plastic sword (to complement my 
Viking helmet) on behalf of the Workshop Survivors, I say Thank You in the 
hope that the non-survivors at least got a decent funeral......

And for the glorious plastic hatchet (also to be added to the Viking 
armoury...?) I extend my deep and heartfelt Thanks! I am quite certain that 
the various airport security personnel will have a field day with my luggage 
as I progress throughout USA. What the UK airport personnel will think as I 
arrive back, is anybody's guess...

I have had a wonderful time.
On Wednesday it's onward to Colorado Springs and THEN on 11th & 12th 
September,  the NEXT workshop in Kansas City. 
See you There!!?
My first Notebook left in San Fransisco has at long last turned up.

Affectionate and Warm Regards

Elisabeth   'n (absent) Toby from UK


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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 15:14:47 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: round piece
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:31:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.123135.0>
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Message text written by Rita Tidwell
>What's the trick to getting a piece (finished) perfectly round. I did
one with an 8 section border, small, 8". It looked fine but after
foiling it seemed not as symmetrical. Sorry to be so inefficient but
y'all offered. Thanks, Rita<

A nice finished round look can be achieved by
soldering a length of copper wire all around the
outside edges of the circle.  But to get the edges
circular I do the following:
- place your pieces on your soldering surface
as normal.
- take a flexible measuring tape or piece of string
or something along those lines, and butt it up against
the outside edges of the panel.
- gently tighten the measuring tape until all the
pieces jiggle into a circle.
- push pin or nail everything into place.
- take a length of small gauge copper wire and
push pin it all around the circle.  This will take quite
a few push pins.
- solder everything together.

Hope this helps.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 16:01:13 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:11:12 EDT
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In a message dated 8/28/99 1:42:58 PM, byronw@fastlane.net writes:

>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no luck..

It's listed in the Whittemore-Durgin catalog (in the "Chemicals, Consumables 
and Notions" section along with "Moving Eyeballs"....... gotta take it where 
you can get it, I guess!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 17:11:28 1999
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Subject: NG John's arm
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 18:18:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug30.141841.0>
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For those at Allentown, I just want you to know that John's arm is much
better.  (For those who weren't, he was stung by a hornet and it swelled
up!)

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 18:05:31 1999
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To: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Lamp Black
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 16:11:19 -0700
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Precedence: bulk



"studio@stainedglass.co.uk" wrote:
>=20
> At 12:18 28/08/99 -0500, Byron wrote:
> >Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no =
luck..
>=20
> As far as I have been able to discover it used to be collected off the
> shades of old paraffin/oil lamps and is nothing more than the carbon
> deposit from the flame.
> Maybe you could collect your own by burning a few candles and holding a=
n
> old plate or similar just above the flame to catch the sooty bits?
> Regards
> Elizabeth
> Bournemouth Stained Glass
> http://www.stainedglass.co.uk


Elizabeth,

You seem to be a lady and a nice person.  Please don't want you to take
these remarks personally.  However, knowing what I know, I can't let
this pass.

I don't think making and using your own lamp black by gathering soot in
an uncontrolled manner the way ole grandpa used to do it is such a good
idea.  In fact, I think its a very BAD idea.  Just because thats the way
ole grandpa used to do it doesn't mean WE should do it that way.  We
know a bit more now than ole grandpa knew.

Here is some basic info on the stuff (which has many pseudonyms btw) :

http://www.msds.org/oshanswers/chemicals/chem_profiles/carbonbl/basic_cb.=
html

Carbon black, lamp black .... are the same thing : elemental carbon
produced by incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons.  =20

One of the things that comes along with carbon black are condensed
polyaromatic hydrocarbons (aka PAH's).  These are HIGHLY carcinogenic
(cancer causing) and mutagenic (mutation causing, aka BIRTH DEFECTS)
substances that are well-known and well-characterized in every way.  NOT
something to fool around with casually if you can avoid it.

It is NOT a good idea for women of child-bearing age (of which there are
more than a few on this Bungi list) to fiddle around with this stuff.  I
worked with defective and diseased children for a long time and one of
my own children has some problems of uncertain origin .... believe me
this is not something you want to take a chance  with

It would be better to simply purchase commercial carbon black
manufactured in a controlled manner with a minimum of carcinogenic and
mutagenic substances. Wearing gloves and a mask while using this stuff
in its powered (inhalable) form is probably not a bad idea ... and in
any case PAY ATTENTION not to get it on your skin or inhale it.

Anyway, yall do whachawanna, but I sure ain't a gonna make dat stuff
myself and I'll damn sure pay attention when I use even the commercial
stuff.

Using the list of pseudonyms in that webreference this stuff should be
found easily.  I mean ... they make this stuff by the TON folks ... and
use it for making car tires black amongst MANY other uses.

Regards to all ......... Bob

---
HAVE <O=BFO> FUN .......... ez
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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 19:02:06 1999
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From: BMarhon@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:33:17 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.03317.0>
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Hi All,
I'd like to add my Thank You to Charles and Marianne for both the Glass 
Visions show as well as the opportunity to meet so many fellow Bungians.  
Wading through 500 plus emails right now and dealing with two very PO'd 
kitties that spent 10 days boarded at the Vet - they really need attention 
tonight!

The workshops were terrific and my only regret is that I only got to sit in 
on three of them (too much socializing!) but the best thing I learned was 
that there is no need to tin brass vase caps in order to patina them - this 
little tidbit alone was worth the price of admission to me!   Two different 
instructors taught me that the vase cap HAD TO BE tinned to be patinaed.  
Can't wait to try it.

Since I had the digital camera (almost lost it when Vic found out what he was 
using), my photos are ready to go if someone can tell me where to send them 
for posting.  I'm only sorry I didn't take more but there were plenty of 
flashes going off so I'm sure there will be more to come.

Later!
Brenda Marhon

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From owner-glass Mon Aug 30 21:06:28 1999
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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 20:07:41 -0700
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990830200741.0097ee90@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
References: <<1999Aug31.03317.0>>
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At 08:33 PM 8/30/99 EDT, Brenda Marhon wrote:
>
>The workshops were terrific and my only regret is that I only got to sit in 
>on three of them (too much socializing!) but the best thing I learned was 
>that there is no need to tin brass vase caps in order to patina them - this 
>little tidbit alone was worth the price of admission to me!   Two different 
>instructors taught me that the vase cap HAD TO BE tinned to be patinaed.  
>Can't wait to try it.
>

Share, please!!!   We had a vase cap patina thread on bungi at the
beginning of the year.  You may know secrets that weren't revealed then.

Steve
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 01:26:46 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'Glass@bungi.com'" <Glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Elephant panel critique
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:42:54 +0100
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I put the work on to be critisised and comments are welcome good or bad and
thanks for the replies(mostly favourable)..

The explanation is on my web site but basically I saw a historical piece of
film some years ago about hannibal.Things like this stick in your mind hence
elephants on the march and mountains.The panel is small so it limits what
you can do to represent a picture.If you attempt to make something too much
like a real picture then you will fail.You have to compromise with a
simplicity that fits into glass and let the brain fill in the missing
parts.I got hooked on glass pictures that are not painted when I started on
the glass trip two years ago so I decided to find a niche for myself within
my own skills to make some of them.Computers enable me to cut and paste chop
and choose images until the mental bell rings that says that is the start of
a usable image .After that print out and pens do the rest.If that is no good
scrap it and start again.It does not finish there because half way through
you realise you have got yourself into a glass trap and after that it may be
on line mods to get out of the trap. I have learned how to get out of
mistakes without totally going backwards. In the end you only really know
what you have got until you first hold it up to natural light and the kick I
get then makes all of the hours spent worth while.

Brandon S. Jones
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 01:44:51 1999
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From: "B. S. Jones" <b.s.jones@bham.ac.uk>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Lamp Black
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:20:36 +0100
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At 12:18 28/08/99 -0500, Byron wrote:
>Where would I find Lamp Black?? I've looked at Home Depot etc with no
luck..

As far as I have been able to discover it used to be collected off the
shades of old paraffin/oil lamps and is nothing more than the carbon
deposit from the flame.
Maybe you could collect your own by burning a few candles and holding an
old plate or similar just above the flame to catch the sooty bits?
Regards
Elizabeth 
Bournemouth Stained Glass

Parafin or Kerosene is the best. You get a jam jar with a metal lid and
punch a quarter inch hole in it.You then make a wick out of some cloth.Put a
small amount of kerosene in the jar to wet the wick.Pull out a lot of
wick.What you need after that is a metal tube or tin can to hold over the
flame after you light the wick.You set it up in the open light it and keep
clear.Sounds like a petrol bomb doesn't it but kerosene is ok,thousands of
lamps have been lit like this for years. This is how I used to black the
inside of telescope tubes and fittings to stop light reflection ,smelly but
it works.

Brandon 
UK
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 06:04:02 1999
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Subject: Re: Re:cementing-no plaster or portland
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 1999 07:11:47 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990828071147.0081a490@pop.racsa.co.cr>
References: <<1999Aug26.122037.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,
	would artists oil or acrylic paints work for coloring? Probably oil or the
new Max oil (oils that can be used with water!!) since it is to be used
with oil and turps.  Meg



At 08:20 AM 8/26/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 8/26/99 12:37:30 AM, TMacnicol@xtra.co.nz writes:
>
>>Why should the cement contain no portland cement or plaster of paris.
>
>Because they get *really* hard and stiff and take the "give" out of your=20
>finished panel, so as it settles over the years it's more likely to crack
the=20
>glass, and when that happens it's practically impossible to get the cracked=
=20
>pieces out for repair without destroying the surrounding lead (and maybe
some=20
>intact glass as well).
>
>>If so what do I use instead?
>
>Replace the plaster and cement with equal measures of whiting.
>
>> 4 parts whiting
>> 2 parts plaster
>> 1 1/2 parts cement
>
>Works out to 7 1/2 parts whiting (DUH!)
>
>> 1/4 part lamp black
>
>We haven't been able to find that around here (PA, USA); I wonder about
using=20
>ground-up artists' charcoals? My first perverse idea was to pulverize some=
=20
>charcoal briquets, but on second thought, it might make the place smell=
 like=20
>a barbecue pit. (Not that I have any objection to barbecue pits,=
 but........)
>
>> 1 part boiled linseed oil
>> 1 1/2 parts turps
>
>Funny that this should come up today (yesterday? which side of the date=
 line=20
>is NZ on?). Christie just mixed up a batch of putty from scratch yesterday=
=20
>using this recipe (using all whiting, no cement or plaster). She said it=20
>mixed up nice and smooth and pliable and was far easier to work with than
the=20
>usual Inland stuff we've been using. Not having any lamp black, she used
part=20
>old grungy whiting from previous jobs, which gave the putty a nice gray
color=20
>(NOTE: If you do this, make sure you sieve the stuff first to get rid of=20
>pieces of old putty!). Between that and smooshing the mixture around on the=
=20
>lead, it blacked up pretty nicely.
>
>
>Sparks
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=
=BA
=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA=BA
RICHARD AND MEG LAVAL
Apdo 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA

PHONE 645-5052 or 645-5419
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 06:32:24 1999
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From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Allentown
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 08:48:47 -0400
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Good Morning Bungians:
	I want to thank all the folks at W-C in Allentown for Glass Visions this
past weekend... I had the most wonderful time.
	At first I was so overwhelmed by all there was to see.  By the end of the
first day, I figured out a plan so that I would be able to see as much as
possible and still have energy to continue.
	I learned so much, was inspired by so many pieces on exhibit and loved
meeting folks from the Bungi list.  Dinner at Gregory's on Sat. night was
great.
	Jim, I do hope you plan on sharing your notes from the patina session.
Like a dummy, I did not take as many as I should have and then left what I
did take in the hotel room.
	Thanks again Charles and Marianne.... your staff was wonderful.  Not to
mention I left the best part of my wallet at your place... but have
wonderful new toys and beautiful glass to show for it.  We had a ball.

Barbara Snell 
Ithaca, NY
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 08:07:48 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: <BMarhon@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 10:14:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.61438.0>
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Ditto!

Ciao

Vic

P.S.  (Considering what was going on at Gregory's when Dorothy and I left, I
am afraid that Allentown will never be the same again!)
-----Original Message-----
From: BMarhon@aol.com <BMarhon@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 10:27 PM
Subject: Glass Visions


>Hi All,
>I'd like to add my Thank You to Charles and Marianne for both the Glass
>Visions show as well as the opportunity to meet so many fellow Bungians.
>Wading through 500 plus emails right now and dealing with two very PO'd
>kitties that spent 10 days boarded at the Vet - they really need attention
>tonight!
>
>The workshops were terrific and my only regret is that I only got to sit in
>on three of them (too much socializing!) but the best thing I learned was
>that there is no need to tin brass vase caps in order to patina them - this
>little tidbit alone was worth the price of admission to me!   Two different
>instructors taught me that the vase cap HAD TO BE tinned to be patinaed.
>Can't wait to try it.
>
>Since I had the digital camera (almost lost it when Vic found out what he
was
>using), my photos are ready to go if someone can tell me where to send them
>for posting.  I'm only sorry I didn't take more but there were plenty of
>flashes going off so I'm sure there will be more to come.
>
>Later!
>Brenda Marhon
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 10:09:22 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: critiquing second post.....first went to???????
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 09:16:56 -0700
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Precedence: bulk

Sorry if this is a repeat, but it did NOT get to me from Bungi.

> As for judging the merit of the "art".........you all know the old saying!
> As for critiquing the workpersonship or technique.......NO matter how good
> you think it is, something can usually be improved.
> I still learn from going over my shades with an eye for what can be
> improved.
> I sincerely appreciate the time someone takes to make suggestions,
> As I have gotten fairly good at it, the improvements usually are subtle
> ones, as to color phasing, use of color, non-repetitive repeats of the
same
> glass usage and where I will place the emphasis, that is a tied together
> background, a separate background, or a continuation of a color theme
which
> places some parts of the shade separate or included in the flow of the
> shade. Easier to do than to say.
> I have had some of my work juried (with a dental pick) by someone (a
> professional) who I respect for their acumen and shade making. I endured
> this gladly!
> Most jurors/critiquers will express their choices for color and rarely for
> the techniques involved. I usually IGNORE the "why did you choose THAT
> COLOR"!
>
> Most colored glass work that "tries" to depict fauna is hard to execute as
> glass is not the best medium to use. Usually it falls in between real and
> stylized.
>
> 'nuf for now...... enjoy, H
>
> weaver51@teleport.com
> Elaine and Howard
> best lamps on the "net":
> http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
>

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 12:13:43 1999
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From: wright <the_wright_light@go.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Please put me back on list.  Back from vacation.
Maggie
the_wright_light@go.com





________________________________________________________ ____
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 13:24:21 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: ALI CASADO <ACASADO@webtv.net>
Subject: Re: glass frit
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:08:54 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.21854.0>
References: <<1999Aug30.8373.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Ali,
You have had a few replies, so I'll try to add other information.

Compatibility:  Frit is broken glass, so the frit of one kind of glass
must not be mixed with another.  If you use Spectrum glass sheet, for
example, use only spectrum frit, or a frit you know to be compatible
with Spectrum.

Testing;  this is important to learn of the results.  This should
include using glues to hold the frit, a variety of sizes of frit grain,
thickness of application relative to grain size, placing a sheet over or
leaving on the surface, combining glass pieces and frit for different
effects.  Consider the temperature - full fusing, tack fusing and look
at the different results.

You can get painterly effects at full fusing temperatures, and a kind of
opacity at tack fusing temperatures, even with cathedrals.  In general I
find cathedrals better to work with than opalescents.

Hope this helps.

Steve

In message <1999Aug30.8373.0@?>, ALI CASADO <ACASADO@webtv.net> writes
>Glenna,
>You mentioned you have used frit.  I haven't, but I really would like to
>try it.  How did you like working with it and  the results.  Exactly how
>did you use it and is it compatible with other glass and dichroic glass
>(which I love to use).
>If anyone else has had good or  bad results with frit I would appreciate
>hearing from you.
>Thanks.
>Ali
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 13:41:41 1999
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From: "Rebecca  Wickline" <r.wickline@att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: long time no hear
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 15:40:50 -0400
Message-ID: <19990831193723.JHTO18791@[12.79.198.65]>
Precedence: bulk

    After a long vacation and some surgery I am about ready to get back into
doing some glass.  Please put my name back on the list.  Missed hearing from
you all.
    Anybody know of a magnolia pattern?  I have a window to do for a friend
and I can't find a pattern in my collection.  I'm going to make the trip out
to the real world this weekend.  the surgery has me housebound for now.
Thanks for the help.
            Becky
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 13:49:32 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: fusing glass help - compatability of various glasses
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:53:38 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.195338.0>
References: <<1999Aug28.10036.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I have just tried a few glasses which seem to work together, but do not
have polarising filters to cheque.  Does anyone else think these glasses
are compatible?

Spectrum clear
Bullseye fusing orange
Desag/schott A75 clear
and St Just MVA250

These all seemed to be compatible in my test.  Any information from all
you fusers?

Steve
-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 14:40:39 1999
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Subject: Pierre on Glass Visions
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:12:22 -0400
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I spent some time listening to the workshops and have to thank  Timmy J
for extolling the virtues of our Panesville glass.  I hope you all saw
our handrolled rippled/hammered/mottled opal puce that he brought out
into the light. Some of you were heard wondering what layering such a
magnificent glass would do to the color. I have seen it layered with
Passion Pink behind it with extraordinary results.  Of course you want
good strong sunlight on it fro the best results.  Emeraldine has been
working on floral piece with subtle layerings of Pizzicato Purple that
seems to be coming along nicely.  (The work is a bit pedestrian for her,
but she needed a break from that 4-D masterpiece that we can almost see
as it hums away in the corner of the workroom).
As for the bevel guy, Dorothy was pretty friendly with him.

Got to sit down with some of the other glass guys and share furnace
stories.  Where was that guy from Wixbach, anyway?

Still musing about cutting glass with water jets.

Emeraldine is off somewhere with friends.  She left a note about finding
Senhor Jay Jay's great-grandmother.

Pierre (the ficticious glassmaker from Panesville who is one of the many
voices that inhabit Dorothy's brain.)

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 15:00:23 1999
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From: LByrne21@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Glass Visions 99
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:09:09 EDT
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How can one be so happy to SPEND ones' hard-earned money!!?  
Warner-Crivellaro certainly goes a long way in helping with that upside-down 
philosophy.  The helpfulness of their staff (against all odds with the crowds 
of people), the graciousness of Charles and Marianne in the midst of this 
very hectic two day extravaganza called "Glass Visions"; the workshops, which 
are not only extremely informative, but funny (each with their own unique 
presentations) is something I wish everyone could experience.    (Even those 
who have been doing SG for years, would have a smile, and perhaps gleen a 
tidbit of something they hadn't looked at "in just that way" before.)  Yes, 
Warner-Crivellaro is "the big guy on the block"; and.... there is room in 
this industry for the"Mom and Pop" shop ('cause without them, many of us 
wouldn't have gotten started in SG) and they're our nearest, hands-on, help 
...and...they can't stay in business without continuing support.  However, 
W-C, being "the big guy", is an outstanding example of what suppliers should 
be, or could be. Hosting events such as "Glass Visions", and breakfast for 
"Bungians" to meet with Elisabeth, is the icing on the stained-glass cake.  
Kudos to Charles and Marianne, in their continuing effort to make 
Warner-Crivellaro such a pleasureable experience.
                               Lavergne
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 15:09:37 1999
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From: ACASADO@webtv.net (ALI CASADO)
To: glass@bungi.com (Rebecca)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: long time no hear      
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:10:29 -0400 (EDT)
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Rebecca,
Have you tried contacting Glass Patterns 
Quarterly?  They have many many patterns. 
Their # is 1-800-719-0769. 
Good luck!!!
Ali

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 15:38:47 1999
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From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Subscribe
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:38:29 -0400
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Thanks,
LJ


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 16:18:16 1999
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From: Nadine Beth Schneider <nadinesfolly@erols.com>
To: LByrne21@aol.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: re: Glass Visions 99
Date: 31 Aug 99 18:25:18 -0500
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I second your sentiments, Lavergne. . .

. . .and it certainly was very nice meeting you.
Charles and Marianne really went the extra
mile paying attention to details.  And, thank
goodness, they had help.  I've never seen such
a grand group of volunteers helping the customers
and the packers.  .and everyone.  Their staff
is really something other suppliers should envy!

Stephanie is an absolute jewel. A walking
talking computer printout of the best prices
and products you should get!  She's a real
gem!  I was truly impressed!

And although I've been doing *glass* for
nearly twenty years, I must say, I learned
more than a few new tips and saw a whole
lot of new glass that I'd never tried.  That's
the best part of getting together with other
glass lovers to see and hear their perspective
on the subject.

Kudos to Charles and Marianne. . .and I
even found a shortcut home that cut 25 miles
off the trip!

Nadine


www.nadinesfolly.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 16:38:06 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Joe Porcelli's patina workshop
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 17:39:20 -0500
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I really liked Joe.  He was more *real* than I expected.  Cant explain
why.
I typed up my notes earlier and was almost done when I lost it somehow
somewhere on my computer.  Right now I will just give you what I was the
most important info for me.

..that said, he started by going over the scale of metal integrity

Best on top...worst on bottom
Bronze
copper
brass
tin
lead

He suggests using 60/40 solder for the higher tin content.  The metals
with the highest integrity will take the patina the best.

Most important thing to do is to use water soluable flux, wash was water
and keep it clean.  If water isnt enough use very fine steel wool (0000)
after the steel wool, rinse.

If that isnt enough use Jax metal cleaner.
Joe uses a nylon brush to apply his patina.
He uses and recommends Jax patinas.

I asked him about a problem Ive had with patina flaking off and leaving
base metal.  He said it sounded like my patina was too strong, and to
try watering it down a little (I havent had a chance to try it yet)

He suggests using paste wax on black patina, never use polishing
compound as it will take it off.

When going for a brown patina dont mix your copper sulfate and black
patina.  ALWAYS LAYER your patina.  Always rinse with water between
applications.  Always have SEPARATE labeled brushes for each patina. 
(another of my mistakes)

Keep things clean, patina as soon as possible after finishing and rinse,
rinse, rinse.  Dont introduce other chemicals to your solder...dont use
soap.

You dont need to tin a brass vase cap.  Brass is a metal of higher
integrity and will take the patina better than the solder.  If anything
it just needs to be cleaned.  Try Jax metal cleaner. Steel wool, rinse.

He gave us recipes, will send those later.  Sorry. Im just tired of
typing. (I used up a lot of energy this weekend) :o)

He was very helpful, knowledgable, and more than willing to answer any
questions.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 17:08:38 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Rebecca  Wickline" <r.wickline@att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: long time no hear
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:29:36 -0400
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Message text written by "Rebecca  Wickline"
>Anybody know of a magnolia pattern?  I have a window to do for a friend
and I can't find a pattern in my collection. <

Look in history books about Tiffany.... he did some
wonderful magnolia windows*.  Then modify the =

design to suit your needs.  *I should say his =

designers at the Tiffany Studios did some nice
designs and windows.... Tiffany did very little of
that sort of thing himself.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 18:14:23 1999
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From: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
To: Bungi Glass Group <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Glass Visions - What a Production!
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:44:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.134456.0>
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Glass Visions was truly overwhelming.  It is something you have to
experience to understand. impressive.  The Warner-Crivellaro showrooms
are beautiful and must have every item in the catalog represented there
as well as items that aren't in the catalog.  The glass warehouse is
humungous and well organized.

Marianne, Charles and the entire Warner-Crivellaro staff outdid
themselves.  The workshops were extremely educational, inspirational and
fun.  As a Toastmaster I would give them all top ratings.  They combined
humor with outstanding tips for us to take home.  The exhibitors and
demonstrators showed us quicker, easier and better ways to handle tools
we already have or made us want to buy them.

The Saturday breakfast was especially nice with an opportunity for Bungi
members to congregate and meet/visit with Elizabeth, Robert Oddy and
other members.  It was a fantastic kickoff to Glass Visions.

Minnesota is a long way from Pennsylvania, but I hope to make it back
next year.  It was worth the trip.  Thanks so much Charles, Marianne and
your entire staff.

Joanne from Minnesota

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 19:12:03 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 18:30:48 -0700
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seeing if this gets back to me!
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 19:38:35 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: GlassVisions
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 21:46:09 EDT
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What a terrific way to spend my weekend off!  I looked forward to this all 
summer.  I met my cyberfriends from A-O-Hell, and a few bungians too.

Once again the workshops were informative and great fun:  a wealth of 
information, including safety tips around glass that might spare someone a 
disaster.  

 The employees answered questions, dished food, directed the parking, laughed 
and worked their legs off.  Everything was organized and "findable".   The 
vendors were really nice folks, my significant other looked forward to 
talking to the Norris Ironworks man.

Thankyou Charles and Marianne for graciously welcoming everyone into your 
shop.  On any given day you can walk in there and the place is meticulously 
organized and clean.  I can't imagine having that many "guests" come to visit 
for several days. 

I look forward to hopefully, next years show.  It was the nicest crowd of 
people I have ever been in.  Everyone had a story......  

Maureen (in Phila)  
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 20:13:45 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: my post on "critiquing"
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 19:42:03 -0700
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Has it gone through?
sent it twice and I have not seen it return via the list?
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 20:48:57 1999
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To: Howard <weaver51@teleport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: my post on "critiquing"
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:18:30 -0400
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I see you on Bungi!

Howard wrote:
> 
> Has it gone through?
> sent it twice and I have not seen it return via the list?
> weaver51@teleport.com
> Elaine and Howard
> best lamps on the "net":
> http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 31 21:14:14 1999
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From: Cecily and Ralph Wood <cecnralph@home.com>
To: Bungi Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re:Lamp Black
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 23:46:39 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug31.194639.0>
Organization: Grendel Studios
Precedence: bulk


Elisabeth suggested lamp black (pure carbon) or stove polish.  So  I
found it (stove polish) with no trouble at a store (hardware) that
specializes in fire place and hearth supplies: cast (iron?) stoves like
those used in place of fireplaces.  I probably have a life-time supply -
a simple tube of stuff.

  I also remembered that cleaning the glass chimneys of candles,
kerosene, or white gas lamps on which is deposited lamp black (carbon
from burning the lamp) was best accomplished with old crumpled
newspaper, so I used that to burnish the panel, and I was most happy
with it. 


-- 
*********************************************************************
*  Cecily Taylor Cummings Wood  and/or  Ralph Bernard Wood 
*  Grendel Studio (Glass, Graphics, Gardens, Genealogy)
*********************************************************************
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