From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 04:09:02 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Infection Cleared Up
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 06:54:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.1549.0>
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Thanks for the instructions on how to get rid of the Happy99 virus. I have 
e-mail myself and no attachment showed up. I think I got it from someone in 
the group so every on should follow the instructions at:

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3652/SKA.HTM

I think I only infected 2 other people besides bungi and I have warned 
them. My apologies if I am the one to have caused the group this trouble. I 
promise to never double click on another .exe file, EVER.

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 07:36:53 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 08:57:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.25752.0>
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I usually dont pass these on, as they really make us look bad...but this
one really made me laugh because there is so much truth to it! 

Tulsa Suzanne (raised in Georgia)

> ADVICE FOR NORTHERNERS MOVING SOUTH
> 
> > 1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be instructed later how
to
> > use it.
> > 
> > 2. If you forget a Southerner's name, refer to him (or her) as "Bubba".
> >    You have a 75% chance of being right.
> > 
> > 3. Just because you can drive on snow and ice does not mean we 
> >can't stay home the two days of the year it snows.
> > 
> > 4. If you do run your car into a ditch, don't panic.  Four men in the
> > cab of a four wheel drive with a tow chain will be along shortly.
> > Don't try to help them.  Just stay out of their way.  This is what
> > they live for.
> >
> > 5. Don't be surprised to find movie rentals and bait in the same store.
> > 
> > 6. If it can't be fried in bacon grease, it ain't worth cooking, let
> > alone eating.
> > 
> > 7. Remember:  "Y'all" is singular.  "All y'all" is plural.  "All
> > y'all's" is plural possessive
> >     .
> > 8. There is nothing sillier than a Northerner imitating a southern
> > accent.
> > 
> > 9. Get used to hearing, "Y'all ain't from around here, are you?"
> > 
> > 10. People walk slower here.
> > 
> > 11. Don't be worried that you don't understand anyone.  They don't
> >       understand you either.
> > 
> > 12. The proper pronunciation you learned in school is no longer proper.
> > 
> > 13. If attending a funeral in the South, remember, we stay until the
> > last shovel of dirt is thrown on and the tent is torn down      .
> > 
> > 14. If you hear a Southerner exclaim, "Hey, y'all, watch this!"  stay
> > out of his way.  These are likely the last words he will ever say.
> > 
> > 15. Most Southerners do not use turn signals, and they ignore those who
> > do.  In fact, if you see a signal blinking on a car with a southern
> > license plate, you may rest assured that it was on when the car
> > was  purchased.
> 
> > 16. The winter wardrobe you always brought out in September can wait
> >       November.
> > 
> > 17. If there is the prediction of the slightest chance of even the most
> > minuscule accumulation of snow, your presence is required at the
> > local grocery store.  It doesn't matter if you need anything from the
> > store, it's just something you're supposed to do
> > 
> > 18. Florida is not considered a southern state.  There are far more
> > Yankees than Southerners living there.
> > 
> > 19. As you are cursing the person driving 15 mph in a 55 mph zone,
> > directly  in the middle of the road, remember, many folks learned to
> drive on
> > a  model of vehicle known as John Deere, and this is the proper speed
> >and lane position for the vehicle.
> > 
> > 20. You can ask a Southerner for directions, but unless you already
know
> > the positions of key hills, trees and rocks, you're better off trying
to
> find
> > it yourself.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 07:56:53 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Mike's Stained Glass - new stuff
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 09:52:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.4524.0>
References: <<36B55556.1E24@ix.netcom.com>>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne wrote:
> 
> Feeling a bit mind blown here.
> 
> What I want to know....
> How did you foil *that* leaf?  (the one your finger points to)
> Smaller than a grain of rice.  Suddenly *my* challenge projects
> are pre pre school.
> 
> Sky city's dome is really beautiful.
> 
> Tulsa Suzanne


very carefully. 



i used 5/32" foil, and squeezed it down with the end of my fid. then
carefully pressed it againt a piece of glass to flatten it out. then i
had to trim the foil slightly with a razor blade. the trickest part was
grinding the thing. in which i used the 1/4" bit, and carefully ground
it. 

there is around 15 leaves i had to do, slightly larger then that one.
and i still have to make the lower section of the tree.

btw the glass i used was kokomo granite. i liked the texture and it
should be the right scale when it sparkles, when the lights are on. of
course that did'nt make it any easier to break. 


the dome is done, just many more to go. wait until you see one of the
floors it's going to have...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 08:09:09 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: website
Date: Mon Feb  1 07:53:47 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.53147.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi everyone
well, i finally got my online catalog up and running
http://www.taylordExpressions.com

the online catalog has about 1200 items, to be a total of about 2000 items
online.  the printed catalog will be out in about two weeks (typing as fast
as i can on it) it will have about 7000item in it.

anyone contacting me in the next two week with their snail mail address will
receive 25% off the catalog, forever.  not a one time discount, but a
forever discount.

if you don't see what you want online, call or e-mail me kleeman@one.net for
availability.

i am trying to make it easy for everyone to order everything they need from
one place.  this also means one shipping charge. and no minimum order
required.

please let me know any comments (good and bad) you have pertaining to the
site.  i have an 888 number, so if you have any questions, feel free to
call.  please check hours of operation before calling.

thank you for your time
debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordExpressions.com


----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 09:11:14 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Bob's new baby pictures
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 10:10:39 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.101039.0>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE4DCB.1E947C20
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

What a great warm, fuzzy to start a grey Monday morning.  Thanks for =
sharing.   Tami

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE4DCB.1E947C20
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>What a great warm, fuzzy to start a =
grey Monday=20
morning.&nbsp; Thanks for sharing.&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Tami</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0008_01BE4DCB.1E947C20--

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 11:15:23 1999
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X-Path: aries17.uwaterloo.ca!dmg
From: "Daniel M. German" <dmg@csg.uwaterloo.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;  charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: nGlass link
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:30:31 -0500
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Hi Everybody,


Some people have reported problems with the URL I posted yesterday.

Please, try the following one instead:


http://aries17.uwaterloo.ca/newglass/index.html


Happy glassing!




--
Daniel M. German
http://csgwww.uwaterloo.ca/~dmg/home.html
dmg@csg.uwaterloo.ca

 
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 11:36:43 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Hand foiling
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:09:10 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.9910.0>
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On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, M. Savad wrote:
<SNIP>
> 
> just wondering, is there a reason why you've switched to the correct
> method?
> 
> ---Mike Savad

I've been reading through the archive and came across many discussions
concerning use of 'tools' and thought it would be helpful to learn how to
foil without assistance of tools.

I foiled several large pieces over the weekend and found it takes longer.
I held the foil in my right hand and the glass in my left.  I tried
sighting down the glass and rolling the glass.  With more practice I hope
to get the hang of it.  

Thanks to everyone who responded with all the helpful techniques.

Jim

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 13:24:27 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: website
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:00:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.10023.0>
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Are we allowed to advertise our business through bungi?

Arnold


-----Original Message-----
From: daver!one.net!kleeman <daver!one.net!kleeman>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:23 AM
Subject: website


>Hi everyone
>well, i finally got my online catalog up and running
>http://www.taylordExpressions.com
>
>the online catalog has about 1200 items, to be a total of about 2000 items
>online.  the printed catalog will be out in about two weeks (typing as fast
>as i can on it) it will have about 7000item in it.
>
>anyone contacting me in the next two week with their snail mail address
will
>receive 25% off the catalog, forever.  not a one time discount, but a
>forever discount.
>
>if you don't see what you want online, call or e-mail me kleeman@one.net
for
>availability.
>
>i am trying to make it easy for everyone to order everything they need from
>one place.  this also means one shipping charge. and no minimum order
>required.
>
>please let me know any comments (good and bad) you have pertaining to the
>site.  i have an 888 number, so if you have any questions, feel free to
>call.  please check hours of operation before calling.
>
>thank you for your time
>debbie taylor
>kleeman@one.net
>http://www.taylordExpressions.com
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 13:39:21 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Suzanne:Southern born and southern bred!
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 15:01:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.10111.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hey Suzanne, so much of what you sent sounds so true.....where on earth did
they find so much out about us....Ya'll take care now , Abbie Mason in
VIRGINIA [That is south of the Mason -Dixon line, I think] Wonder if that
fella is any kin? [just kidding]

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 14:19:22 1999
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X-Path: DEAN.MED.UFL.EDU!cmccall
From: "Candice McCall" <cmccall@DEAN.MED.UFL.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Infection Cleared Up
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 13:24:48 EST5EDT
Message-ID: <1970Jan1.000.0>
Organization: Dean's Office, College of Medicine
Precedence: bulk

Re: the happy99.exe virus

My PC support person spent the morning here 
cleaning this virus off my hard drive. I thought I
had removed it but when I saw the email concerning
the SKA Virus website, I realized I still had it
under c:\windows\system\ska.dll and ska.exe.

Check your hard drive out. McAfee VirusScan 
didn't catch it...

Candice
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 15:21:40 1999
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X-Path: mail2.nai.net!shad
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: My New Baby
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:21:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.122155.0>
References: <<1999Jan31.152834.0>>
Precedence: bulk

AWW, what a cute baby (as an almost 1st time grandmother, I'm starting to
go AWW over all babies!  I think I'm going to like this grandma stuff.)
Dorothy (with no attempt to get on topic)

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:

> >>!).   For those of you that have asked me for pics, we uploaded
> the
> >first polaroids onto Owen's website at http://www.steelsphere.com/baby
> <<
>
> Don't miss this one!
>
> Bob
>
> Ps: The butterfly thing would look good in stained glass.
>
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 15:35:58 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fw: website
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:23:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.122336.0>
References: <<1999Feb1.10023.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Granny And PawPaw wrote:
> 
> Are we allowed to advertise our business through bungi?
> 
> Arnold
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: daver!one.net!kleeman <daver!one.net!kleeman>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:23 AM
> Subject: website
> 
> >Hi everyone
> >well, i finally got my online catalog up and running
> >http://www.taylordExpressions.com
> >
> >the online catalog has about 1200 items, to be a total of about 2000 items
> >online.  the printed catalog will be out in about two weeks (typing as fast
> >as i can on it) it will have about 7000item in it.
> >
> >anyone contacting me in the next two week with their snail mail address
> will
> >receive 25% off the catalog, forever.  not a one time discount, but a
> >forever discount.
> >
> >if you don't see what you want online, call or e-mail me kleeman@one.net
> for
> >availability.
> >
> >i am trying to make it easy for everyone to order everything they need from
> >one place.  this also means one shipping charge. and no minimum order
> >required.
> >
> >please let me know any comments (good and bad) you have pertaining to the
> >site.  i have an 888 number, so if you have any questions, feel free to
> >call.  please check hours of operation before calling.
> >
> >thank you for your time
> >debbie taylor
> >kleeman@one.net
> >http://www.taylordExpressions.com
> >
> >
> >----


advertise no, mentioning updates, and services, i think are ok.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 16:01:37 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:27:22 -0800
Message-ID: <199902012227.OAA17544@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Okay, so I'm at the point where I need to sharpen up my glass delivery
methods some, and i'd like to get some feedback from the group:

How do you support your glass during transport to installation sites:  If
the answer is glass racks, how long are they (If I put the tailgate on my
pickup down, I have 7' in the box of my truck.  I have a feeling that if I
don't make them 8' long and let it hang over a bit, I'll be sorry somewhere
down the road.  Input?  What angle should I build the racks for the glass to
rest at.  I know it has to be close to vertical, but I notice the commercial
guys that have racks on the sides of their vans seem to have a slight angle.
Do we need that angle for stained glass too?

Also when you're doing delivery of completed windows, how do you protect
them from 1) rain...do you wrap in plastic? 2) stray stones from transport
trucks...do you add a layer of plywood to cover and protect the windows? 3)
do you stack windows on top of each other for delivery what (if anything) do
you place between them for protection...plywood, a blanket, cardboard, nothing?

Thanks so much.  This is one I haven't seen discussed on bungi before.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 16:23:22 1999
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X-Path: iconn.net!tbyrnes
From: Tim Byrnes <tbyrnes@iconn.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Back on line
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 17:39:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.123925.0>
Organization: QM Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Folks,

Do to some technical problems with my Internet carrier I was off line
today and just found it out at 5:30 PM. Please keep me on your list.


Thank you,

Tim Byrnes
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 16:42:03 1999
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X-Path: villagesoftsmith.com!steve
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Infection Cleared Up
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 15:14:27 -0800
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990201151427.00929450@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
References: <<1970Jan1.000.0>>
Precedence: bulk

At 01:24 PM 2/1/99 EST5EDT, Candice McCall wrote:
>Re: the happy99.exe virus
>
>{clip}
>
>Check your hard drive out. McAfee VirusScan 
>didn't catch it...
>
>Candice

Judging from its sporadic reappearance, several bungi people have caught
this virus.  Norton Anti-Virus can detect and remove it automatically if
your virus database is up to date.  Use the LiveUpdate program to get a
free database update.  NAV will also intercept the virus on the way in via
new e-mail messages and prevent the file from being stored.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 17:31:55 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: website
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 19:13:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.141311.0>
Precedence: bulk

I run a one person stained glass retail store.  I wasn't knocking the ad,
just surprised that it was permitted.  Several others, like "Store Finder"
do not permit it.  I teach, give demos at 2 universities, and am retired
from industry.  Really not interested in doing more than I am...It would cut
into my play time, so no web or effort to do mail-order business.  I'd go
after it if I wasn't so lazy....

Thanks for listening

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 6:27 PM
Subject: Fw: website


>Did you get a new website, Arnold??
>Tell us what the URL is!  Will stop
>by and see whatcha got!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>www.igga.org/greer/
>
>

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 17:55:06 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:36:17 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Fw: website
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 14:38:12 -0800
Message-ID: <199902012238.OAA21052@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>Are we allowed to advertise our business through bungi?
>
>Arnold

Arnold, thank you for asking in advance.  I'm not sure if Glenna has an
actual policy, but I think it's generally frowned upon beyond referring
someone to a web site where they can find the info.

C.


Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 18:09:49 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 16:48:51 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.84851.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>How do you support your glass during transport to installation sites:  If
the answer is glass racks, << Big snip>>

I have a double sided glass rack that is 4' long and 32" high for 98% of my
glass transportation needs. The sides are inclined 10 degrees from the
verticle. I have been known to transport over 50 sheets of glass and several
windows with this rack. Use nylon cynch straps at least two per side. Do not
place anything between the glass or panels and have no problems. Panels up
to seven feet long, or so, transport well. Have layed a long board on the
base for longer panels.

I do not cover my panels for two reasons:
1. Rain is not a big thing in San Diego County, and
2. I was once flagged down by a fellow motorest and given an order.

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 18:35:02 1999
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X-Path: email.msn.com!bird_cage
From: "Doug Parrott" <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
To: "Steve Wernecke" <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>,
Subject: Re: Infection Cleared Up
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 1999 17:52:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.95243.0>
Precedence: bulk

Well I must have picked it up too.    We have Norton anti Virus but it must
not be the latest one because it didn't detect it.     I followed the
directions on the post from Linda Campbell and it looks like it is cleared
up now.  At least I hope so.

Cheryl
The Glass Parrott
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: Infection Cleared Up


>At 01:24 PM 2/1/99 EST5EDT, Candice McCall wrote:
>>Re: the happy99.exe virus
>>
>>{clip}
>>
>>Check your hard drive out. McAfee VirusScan
>>didn't catch it...
>>
>>Candice
>
>Judging from its sporadic reappearance, several bungi people have caught
>this virus.  Norton Anti-Virus can detect and remove it automatically if
>your virus database is up to date.  Use the LiveUpdate program to get a
>free database update.  NAV will also intercept the virus on the way in via
>new e-mail messages and prevent the file from being stored.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 20:25:41 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 22:51:35 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.145135.0>
Precedence: bulk

Is tis only etching glass or so you all so do stepping stones and or
stained glass??
Laura

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 20:55:36 1999
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From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: subscribe
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:09:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.15913.0>
Precedence: bulk



----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 21:58:34 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: What goes on?
Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:27:20 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.172720.0>
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> 
> Is tis only etching glass or so you all so do stepping stones and or
> stained glass??
> Laura
> 


Hi Laura!  Boy, have you lucked out!
There is a little bit of everything done in bungi land.
Welcome, sit back relax, tell us about yourself, and get ready.
You will be amazed at how much that is offered to us here.

Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
going to learn to do lead work soon! ;o)  Waiting for this really cool
English chick to visit the USA...I bet you hear about her soon too.

Tulsa Suzanne
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 22:28:05 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "glass bungi com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: New Baby
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:03:25 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.18325.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hey Jenna, I saw a butterfly, and other stuff ..... but no Tutu. How will he
ever follow in my footsteps?
Seems like there are about 700 giddy aunts and uncles here.

Wonderful news and pictures and baby and ....... thanks
Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 22:57:48 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "L Nelson" <t6686@netusa1.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Biography
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:23:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.182324.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello Laura and welcome to the Mad Hatter's Ball.

We would really like to get to know you. Each Saturday I post biographies
(bios) from members of our group.
This is a great way of allowing us getting to know you. Nothing elaborate,
just things like where your from, kids (we are all so proud .... we are all
new uncles and aunts), how you got started in Stained Glass, significant
other (notice the political correctness .... it won't last long here), etc.
Email it to me and I'll post it. If you like I can email you the biographies
of everyone who has submitted one.

Watch out for the others you and I are the only sane ones here (and I have
my doubts about you).

Looking forward to receiving your bio.

Got to go now ..... I'm late..... I'm late ..... for a very important date.
No time to say hello ..... goodbye, I'm late, I'm late .... I'm late.


-----Original Message-----
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 10:43 PM
Subject: (no subject)


>Is tis only etching glass or so you all so do stepping stones and or
>stained glass??
>Laura
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 23:27:45 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New Baby
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 00:50:54 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.185054.0>
References: <<1999Feb1.18325.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> ..... but no Tutu. How will he
> ever follow in my footsteps?


Aren't those called "Toe-steps", Patrick?

Tulsa Suzanne
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  1 23:57:38 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 1 Feb 1999 23:22:21 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Biography
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:22:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.212254.0>
Precedence: bulk

Okay  Mr. Tutu,

I  have a bio all wrote up...but to where do I send it......this list works
differently than any other the others I am on....and  I would hate to make a
mistake and encounter your  glass wrath?

Take Care,
Soraya

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya may be reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya's web site is currently undergoing reconstruction�
"The Witches' Thicket"  may be found at...
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
"For Passionate People These Are Desperate Times,
Desperate Measures Call For Passionate Crimes"
--Michael Stanley


----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 00:10:29 1999
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X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Looking for artist info
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 02:31:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.213154.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE4E54.32D398E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Bungians,

While in the library the other week I found an interesting book  =
"Stained Glass -  Music for the Eye" by Hil, Hil and Halberstadt. =20

On the cover (and an inside plate) is this most amazing piece of work =
instilled "Druidic Tree" .  It shows a large Oak tree with the various =
seasons depicted in its branches and a lunar month calendar circling the =
top 2/3.  The whole piece being round in shape.

Now, silly me did not write down the artists name (Dan Something =
maybe???).  And when I went back to the library the book is checked out. =
   I am hoping someone may be familiar with this work and help me locate =
the artists name, possibly more pieces by him and/or patterns for =
purchase. =20

Thank you for any help in advance.
Take Care,
Soraya

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya may be reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
"The Witches' Thicket"  may be found at...
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
"For Passionate People These Are Desperate Times,
Desperate Measures Call For Passionate Crimes"
--Michael Stanley


------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE4E54.32D398E0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dear Bungians,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>While in the library the other week =
I found an=20
interesting book&nbsp; &quot;Stained Glass -&nbsp; Music for the =
Eye&quot; by=20
Hil, Hil and Halberstadt.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>On the cover (and an inside plate) is this most =
amazing piece=20
of work instilled &quot;Druidic Tree&quot; .&nbsp; It shows a large Oak =
tree=20
with the various seasons depicted in its branches and a lunar month =
calendar=20
circling the top 2/3.&nbsp; The whole piece being round in =
shape.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Now, silly me did not write down the artists name =
(Dan=20
Something maybe???).&nbsp; And when I went back to the library the book =
is=20
checked out.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am hoping someone may be familiar with =
this=20
work and help me locate the artists name, possibly more pieces by him =
and/or=20
patterns for purchase.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thank you for any help in advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Take Care,<BR>Soraya</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~<BR>Soraya=20
may be reached at...<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:soraya@cros.net">soraya@cros.net</A><BR>~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^=
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~<BR>&quot;The=20
Witches' Thicket&quot;&nbsp; may be found at...<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.cros.net/soraya">http://www.cros.net/soraya</A><BR>~^~=
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~<BR>&quot;For=20
Passionate People These Are Desperate Times,<BR>Desperate Measures Call =
For=20
Passionate Crimes&quot;<BR>--Michael =
Stanley<BR></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0019_01BE4E54.32D398E0--


----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 00:57:57 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Soraya <soraya@cros.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Biography
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 02:21:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb1.202133.0>
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> 
> Okay  Mr. Tutu,
> 
> I  have a bio all wrote up...but to where do I send it......this list works
> differently than any other the others I am on....and  I would hate to make a
> mistake and encounter your  glass wrath?
> 
> Take Care,
> Soraya


You fit right in, girlfriend! ;o)  Anxious to read all about you!

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 02:31:37 1999
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Subject: Re: website
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 04:46:02 EST
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Hi Deb,
Congrats on your new website!!!  Looks like you have a ton of work ahead of
you!!! (with all you are planning to list on site!)  Good Luck!   Lenore
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Subject: Re: NG/baby pictures
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 05:15:54 EST
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Jenna,
What a beautiful baby!!!  No conehead or mushface here!!!  With a conehead you
can always keep the little hat on the head, but with a mushface, there is
nothing to hide it except for a bag over the head (like they probably prepared
you for in birthing classes).  <BL> !!!  So happy for you and your husband.
Of course, let's not forget the proud grandfather who gave me the go-ahead to
inform all of bungiland about its newest member!
Lenore
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Subject: Re: What goes on?
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:36:24 EST
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In a message dated 2/2/99 1:00:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:

> Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
>  going to learn to do lead work soon

Suzanne de Tulsa,

I can't wait till you start working in lead, your enthusiasm is so contagious.
Personally love lead.  The lines are so precise compared to foil.  I really
want to do something with foil and lead in the same project, anyone have an
idea?  Thanks,

IA  
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:44:38 EST
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In a message dated 2/1/99 10:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:

>  1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be instructed later how
>  to
>  > > use it.
 
Suzanne de Tulsa,

Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the paper
towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??  

Take care.

IA
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 05:42:29 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Smiles!
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:45:54 -0500
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Patrick you brighten my morning with smiles.....but a Tutu?

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Subject: Re: Looking for artist info
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:55:04 -0500
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Dan Fenton, maybe?
Dee


>On the cover (and an inside plate) is this most amazing piece of work =
>instilled "Druidic Tree" . 
>Now, silly me did not write down the artists name (Dan Something =
>maybe???).  
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 06:48:49 1999
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Subject: Re: What goes on?
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:01:33 -0600
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CncptThnkr@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 2/2/99 1:00:15 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:
> 
> > Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
> >  going to learn to do lead work soon
> 
> Suzanne de Tulsa,
> 
> I can't wait till you start working in lead, your enthusiasm is so contagious.
> Personally love lead.  
***************The lines are so precise compared to foil****************
I really
> want to do something with foil and lead in the same project, anyone >have an idea?  Thanks,
> 
> IA

The above emphasis is mine......

PatricIA
Cant tell you how I hate to hear that! ;o)
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 06:58:35 1999
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:02:43 -0600
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> Suzanne de Tulsa,
> 
> Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the paper
> towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??  
> 
> Take care.
> 
> IA
> 

I think I am gonna be ill...

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 07:21:03 1999
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Subject: NG a hankerin'
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 08:05:04 -0600
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Ok...all this talk has me suddenly wanting to go buy some bacon.
Moving to California in the early '70's taught me to be heart
smart...but, I may have to go back to the grocery store.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 07:41:36 1999
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Subject: Re: Looking for artist info
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 09:10:35 -0600
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Yep...Dan Fenton it is...

See the "Druid Oak Tree" at the Dan Fenton Studio website
http://www.cyberthings.com/fenton/

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 07:58:52 1999
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Subject: Re: lead+foil
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:20:26 -0500
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I've done projects with foil florals in the center, using lead for the
framing geometric design.  I thought the thin lead was very attractive and
in proportion to the thin copper foil lines in the 'organic' center
section.  Those pieces sold well, so I guess they looked ok to others as well!
Dee 



 I really
>want to do something with foil and lead in the same project, anyone have an
>idea? 
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 08:27:22 1999
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Subject: website apology-not glass
Date: Tue Feb  2 07:48:12 1999
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hi guys
i am sorry if i offended anyone yesterday with the announcement of my
website.  i have worked very hard over the last six weeks to get the website
and catalog up and running.  a lot of you helped me with this, and i am very
grateful.  i would also like to thank anyone who wished me well on my new
venture.

as i said, i did not mean to offend anyone.  i was very excited, and knowing
other people post their web sites, i just announced mine.  i understand it
is not finished glass product, it is supplies--i sell something different
then the rest of you.

please accept my apology glenna, i did not mean to do anything wrong, just
wanted to share my excitement with my friends.

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordExpression.com
1-888-488-9616

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 08:49:11 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:02:04 -0500
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A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any good unless you fry
it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;)

Jerri
from Georgia


P.S. Patrick,  my 5 yr. old will argue with you.  It really goes, "I'm late.
I'm late.  I'm being fortune tate."  I haven't quite figured out what that
means, but I'm corrected every time I say "for a very important date."




>
>>  1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be instructed later how
>>  to
>>  > > use it.
>
>Suzanne de Tulsa,
>
>Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the
paper
>towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??
>
>Take care.
>
>IA

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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: lead+foil
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 10:50:02 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.4502.0>
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> I've done projects with foil florals in the center, using lead for the
> framing geometric design.  I thought the thin lead was very attractive and
> in proportion to the thin copper foil lines in the 'organic' center
> section.  Those pieces sold well, so I guess they looked ok to others as well!
> Dee 
> 
> 
I really love copperfoil, and honestly cant imagine doing lead only.  I
want to learn to do it, but think I will incorporate both
together mostly. I just need to learn how.

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 10:32:21 1999
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Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:47:10 -0500
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Message text written by "Bob E Duchesneau"
>I do not cover my panels for two reasons:
1. Rain is not a big thing in San Diego County, and
2. I was once flagged down by a fellow motorest and given an order.<

Oh, Bob!  I had to re-read reason #2 in order to fully appreciate it!
Wonderful!

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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Subject: what is bungi? by L Nelson
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 12:47:13 -0500
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Message text written by L Nelson
>Is tis only etching glass or so you all so do stepping stones and or
stained glass??<

Hi Laura.  We on bungi do all sorts of work with glass.  Etched,
sand-blasted, mosaic'ed, copper-foil, lead, hot glass, flameworked,
slumped, drapped, fused, jewelry, bead-making, restoration, etc...
You name it, and probably someone on this list does it.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 11:00:38 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:09:03 EST
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In a message dated 2/1/99 9:11:48 PM, BOBDU@prodigy.net wrote:

>I do not cover my panels for two reasons:
> [...] 2. I was once flagged down by a fellow motorest and given an order.

<LOL> I got the biggest kick out of this...... It's another of those things
most people don't think about: where do stained glass windows come from,
anyway? How do they get where they're going? etc. etc. Maybe they'd like to
have one, one of these days when they get around to it. Then one day they see
one riding down the street, or they walk into a shop and se one being made,
and it just grabs 'em.

Exposure to the process itself - seeing the artist/artisan at work, even
seeing a finished product going down the road on the way to be installed - has
to be one of the greatest sales tools of all!

The same thing goes for smaller pieces too. I'm sure I'm not the only one
who's had things "bought out from under me" as I was working on them!


Sparks
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG-about that bacon grease......
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:08:53 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.18853.0>
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IA's enquiring mind wants to know:

>Suzanne de Tulsa,
>
>Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the
paper
>towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??  

Hell, no! Y' cain't cook bacon in no newfangled gadget like that! Y'all gotta
use a big ol' cast-arn skillet!


Sparks		Born in California but with a grammaw an' grampaw from
			Arkinsaw, who larned me real good that the basic food groups
			are hambeans, Wonder bread, and milk gravy made with
			that good ol' bacon grease
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From: Ray <103462.2164@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:daver!one.net!kleeman" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: website apology-not glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:13:05 -0500
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Message text written by INTERNET:daver!one.net!kleeman
>please accept my apology glenna, i did not mean to do anything wrong, ju=
st
wanted to share my excitement with my friends.
<

No need to apologize. All accomplishments are worth noting.


Love,
Ray     CSG
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 11:57:24 1999
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From: GlassLites@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:13:25 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.181325.0>
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In a message dated 1/30/99, 5:55:22 PM, Dale Bentley  writes:
<<The cutting wheels are fragile, but inexpensive.  One wheel if careful makes
many cuts (dozen or so).  I also use it to get rid of the sharp edges after
cutting.  Remember to wear eye protection.

Does anyone else cut zinc this way?

Dale>>

Absolutely!

I could not live without my little "mighty moto". It was given to me when I
was in college some mumble..mumble... years ago. It's an antique now. But it
can do anything!

Cheryl Lowe
Glass Lites Studio
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 11:57:48 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!mschatee
From: mschatee@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 12:38:57 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.173857.0>
References: <<1999Feb2.124438.0>>
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Speaking of Northerners...I am one, true blue, born and bred New Yorker,
the worst kind of Northerner I know.  So we have had a tough winter.  Two
weeks ago we had tons of snow then rain, which led to melting and
flooding in my basement.  I had to take apart my stained glass area of
the basement to suck up the water.  Well a few days ago I finally put it
all back together and got back to glass work.  Well here we go again, we
had an ice storm last night (some benefits I got a snow day today being a
teacher), but I'm back to sucking up water again right under my glass
tables.  (By the way I'm sucking with a shop vac which I bought after the
last storm).  Actually I'm glad I had to buy the shop vac since I am now
using it to clean the glass shards out of my Morton grid and the water
and guk out of my grinder.
So back to the basement for me (and I planned on doing glass today).  Gee
do you think I'd have a problem soldering in a puddle of water?

Enjoying being a Northerner (NOT)

Caren

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 12:11:31 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue Feb  2 11:10:30 1999
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------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4EDE.19908D04
Content-Type: text/plain

Jerri

Comparing Patrick to a 5 yr. old? 
Isn't that being unfair to Patrick?

Vic M. 
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 

PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and northern bachelors
use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
Microwave till hot.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Jerri [mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:02 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick

		A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any
good unless you fry
		it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;)

		Jerri
		from Georgia


		P.S. Patrick,  my 5 yr. old will argue with you.  It
really goes, "I'm late.
		I'm late.  I'm being fortune tate."  I haven't quite
figured out what that
		means, but I'm corrected every time I say "for a very
important date."




		>
		>>  1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be
instructed later how
		>>  to
		>>  > > use it.
		>
		>Suzanne de Tulsa,
		>
		>Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the
grease out of the
		paper
		>towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??
		>
		>Take care.
		>
		>IA

		----
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------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4EDE.19908D04
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.1960.3">
<TITLE>RE: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jerri</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Comparing Patrick to a 5 yr. old? =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Isn't that being unfair to =
Patrick?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">vmodiano@ctronsoft.com </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">PS I Have it on good authority that =
both southern and northern bachelors use the same recipe for bacon (and =
everything else):</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Microwave till hot.</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Jerri [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com</A>]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:02 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">NG--Southerners, oh and you too, =
Patrick</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A true Southerner doesn't microwave =
bacon.&nbsp; It's not any good unless you fry</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it and really soak it in it's own =
grease.&nbsp; ;)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jerri</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">from Georgia</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">P.S. Patrick,&nbsp; my 5 yr. old will =
argue with you.&nbsp; It really goes, &quot;I'm late.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm late.&nbsp; I'm being fortune =
tate.&quot;&nbsp; I haven't quite figured out what that</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">means, but I'm corrected every time I =
say &quot;for a very important date.&quot;</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; 1. Save all manner of =
bacon grease.&nbsp; You will be instructed later how</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; use =
it.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Suzanne de Tulsa,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Ummm, after you microwave the =
bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">paper</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;towels????&nbsp; True northerner =
here, can ya tell??</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Take care.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;IA</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
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HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
</UL></UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 12:29:03 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 11:21:42 -0800
Message-ID: <199902021921.LAA13722@oceanus.island.net>
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>2. I was once flagged down by a fellow motorest and given an order.

Hey Bob...first time I read that I read ticket instead of order...thought
maybe it was illegal in Calif to leave your glass exposed :) (thinking of
Patrick and his tutu here).  So if you leave the glass uncovered it's like a
rolling billboard!!

In all seriousness though, I'm wondering how far you transport glass and at
what speed?  

Many of my deliveries require highway speed travel for 4 hours...I tend to
go through a new windshield every couple of years thanks to flying rocks
kicked up by other motorists.  

Are your deliveries similar?  And you've never had a flying rock problem?

What about when your truck is unattended?  Do you have concerns about
vandalism?  For me, I can see a double edged sword here...waiting hours in a
parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism during
the 2 hour ferry ride? 

Guess I'd like to hear more about your delivery trips...how long are they?

C.  

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 12:53:02 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: website
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 14:54:38 -0500
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Debbie you didn't offend me...I just asked the question because advertising
is not permitted on other glass chats...Store Finder, for example.  More
power to you.  I hope that you become very successful...honest.  I have no
axe to grind....Guess that I opened a real can of worms by asking the
question.....Sorry about that

Arnold


-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Taylor <kleeman@one.net>
To: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:16 AM
Subject: Re: website


>arnold
>i am sorry if i offended you
>
>i have worked day and night for 6 weeks getting this together--a lot of the
>bungi group helped me out--when i got the website up and running i was just
>really excited
>
>did not mean to break any rules--just a little excited
>
>debbie
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
>To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 4:35 PM
>Subject: Fw: website
>
>
>>Are we allowed to advertise our business through bungi?
>>
>>Arnold
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: daver!one.net!kleeman <daver!one.net!kleeman>
>>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>>Date: Monday, February 01, 1999 11:23 AM
>>Subject: website
>>
>>
>>>Hi everyone
>>>well, i finally got my online catalog up and running
>>>http://www.taylordExpressions.com
>>>
>>>the online catalog has about 1200 items, to be a total of about 2000
items
>>>online.  the printed catalog will be out in about two weeks (typing as
>fast
>>>as i can on it) it will have about 7000item in it.
>>>
>>>anyone contacting me in the next two week with their snail mail address
>>will
>>>receive 25% off the catalog, forever.  not a one time discount, but a
>>>forever discount.
>>>
>>>if you don't see what you want online, call or e-mail me kleeman@one.net
>>for
>>>availability.
>>>
>>>i am trying to make it easy for everyone to order everything they need
>from
>>>one place.  this also means one shipping charge. and no minimum order
>>>required.
>>>
>>>please let me know any comments (good and bad) you have pertaining to the
>>>site.  i have an 888 number, so if you have any questions, feel free to
>>>call.  please check hours of operation before calling.
>>>
>>>thank you for your time
>>>debbie taylor
>>>kleeman@one.net
>>>http://www.taylordExpressions.com
>>>
>>>
>>>----
>>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>>
>>
>>----
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>>
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 13:06:59 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: CncptThnkr@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: What goes on?
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:08:15 EST
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In a message dated 2/2/99 5:00:13 AM Pacific Standard Time, CncptThnkr@aol.com
writes:

<< I really
 want to do something with foil and lead in the same project, anyone have an
 idea?  Thanks,
  >>

I did a panel once using lead came and copper foil.  The panel 
had glass framing strips all around the perimeter.  I'm not sure 
why I used lead came on those perimeter pieces.  It might have
been aethestic - maybe I thought it would look straighter.  More 
likely, I thought I could save some soldering time, forgetting 
that I would have to putty the came.

Anyway, I like to use lead came once in awhile because it's so
medieval.  Using techniques that haven't changed for 500 -1000
years is fun.  The oldest piece of stained glass dates to 681, from Jarrow
Monastery.
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 13:31:18 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charles_Spitzer
From: "Charles Spitzer" <Charles_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "glass" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: using shopvac in glass workshops
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:20:01 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.6201.0>
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-----Original Message-----
From: mschatee@juno.com <mschatee@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners


<snip>
>(By the way I'm sucking with a shop vac which I bought after the
>last storm).  Actually I'm glad I had to buy the shop vac since I am now
>using it to clean the glass shards out of my Morton grid and the water
>and guk out of my grinder.
>So back to the basement for me (and I planned on doing glass today).  Gee
>do you think I'd have a problem soldering in a puddle of water?
>
>Enjoying being a Northerner (NOT)
>
>Caren

anyone but me see the problem with this? i don't think the sleeve filter on
your shopvac will stop too much glass dust, and thus when it dries and you
turn it on again, you've filled your workshop air with loads of glass dust.
unless you're using a respirator, i don't think you want to do this.

scrape out your grinder dust while it is still wet, and discard in a closed
bag immediately.

regards,
charlie
phx, az


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 13:38:01 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: pigznpawz@mindspring.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:18:24 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.201824.0>
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In a message dated 2/2/99 8:49:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
pigznpawz@mindspring.com writes:

<< A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any good unless you
fry
 it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;) >>

I will stack the Quebecers up against the Dixiecrats any time for their
love of all things hog fat.

A singular delicacy is fried slices of what we New Englanders call
salt pork, it may be called fat back in the South.  The also like to
spread their bread with that stuff that coagulates in the bottom 
of the roasting pork pan.

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 13:58:22 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:57:47 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.85747.0>
References: <<199902021921.LAA13722@oceanus.island.net>>
Precedence: bulk

> What about when your truck is unattended?  Do you have concerns about
> vandalism?  For me, I can see a double edged sword here...waiting hours in a
> parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
> orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism during
> the 2 hour ferry ride? 


Having taken those ferry rides, sans glass, I think I'd take a beverage
and good book and make the ride with the glass.  Up on deck on return
trip.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 14:02:41 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: NG--hot bacon?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 15:36:45 +0000
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> PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and northern bachelors
> use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
> Microwave till hot.


The bacon or the bachelor?
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 14:21:22 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: <mschatee@juno.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:17:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.11172.0>
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Give me the North anytime.

Three weeks ago, in the height of an ice and snow storm, my wife and I took
off for Naples (made the wrong choice) Florida to combine a search for a
winter home excursion with a vacation.  Four days into the trip I had to fly
home with what I thought was a sinus infection.  I got off the plane in
Newark NJ into a limo straight up to my doctors, who we called by cell phone
from the air. From there into an ambulance for a trip to the hospital where
I spent nine days being treated for pneumonia and diminished lung capacity,
and have been home recuperating for the last ten days.  This was probably
the most uncomfortable and potentially dangerous flights of my life.   Who
the h*ll knew you could kill yourself by flying first class?

I am back home in NJ now where its safe! Where we use olive oil instead of
bacon grease, grits (polenta) can be cooked "al'Dente" (ala Joe Pesce), and
no one cares if they're the instant variety.

Great to be back and recuporating.
Ciao

Vic

-----Original Message-----
From: mschatee@juno.com <mschatee@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners


>Speaking of Northerners...I am one, true blue, born and bred New Yorker,
>the worst kind of Northerner I know.  So we have had a tough winter.  Two
>weeks ago we had tons of snow then rain, which led to melting and
>flooding in my basement.  I had to take apart my stained glass area of
>the basement to suck up the water.  Well a few days ago I finally put it
>all back together and got back to glass work.  Well here we go again, we
>had an ice storm last night (some benefits I got a snow day today being a
>teacher), but I'm back to sucking up water again right under my glass
>tables.  (By the way I'm sucking with a shop vac which I bought after the
>last storm).  Actually I'm glad I had to buy the shop vac since I am now
>using it to clean the glass shards out of my Morton grid and the water
>and guk out of my grinder.
>So back to the basement for me (and I planned on doing glass today).  Gee
>do you think I'd have a problem soldering in a puddle of water?
>
>Enjoying being a Northerner (NOT)
>
>Caren
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 16:06:19 1999
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From: mschatee@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:15:56 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.231556.0>
References: <<1999Feb2.201824.0>>
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And we Jews spread that rendered Chicken Fat all over everything.  Well
at least my grandmother did.
Of course anything fried and greasy no matter what the source is usually
pretty darn yummy.

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 16:28:51 1999
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From: mschatee@juno.com
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:15:56 EST
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Gee Vic I certainly hope you are feeling better.  Serves you right for
flying first class!
>From all of us in COACH Class.

Hope you are back on your feet.

Caren

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 16:39:08 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG-about that bacon grease......
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:53:55 -0800
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As a transplanted New Jerseyite?  to NC, forget the bacon, where do you get Wonder
Bread?  I bring it back from NJ and freeze it, cain't git it in these parts.

Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> IA's enquiring mind wants to know:
>
> >Suzanne de Tulsa,
> >
> >Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the
> paper
> >towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??
>
> Hell, no! Y' cain't cook bacon in no newfangled gadget like that! Y'all gotta
> use a big ol' cast-arn skillet!
>
> Sparks          Born in California but with a grammaw an' grampaw from
>                         Arkinsaw, who larned me real good that the basic food groups
>                         are hambeans, Wonder bread, and milk gravy made with
>                         that good ol' bacon grease
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 16:50:38 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG--hot bacon?
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:40:56 -0800
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Both

Albert Lewis wrote:

> > PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and northern bachelors
> > use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
> > Microwave till hot.
>
> The bacon or the bachelor?
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 17:01:37 1999
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From: mschatee@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: using shopvac in glass workshops
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 18:15:56 EST
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Gee I never thought about the glass dust going back into the air.  Thanks
for the great advice and I thought I was doing something good:-)  Oh well
back to scrapping guk.


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 18:02:48 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
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Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:09:14 -0800
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Okay...this got my attention:)
Bacon fat, eh??? I don't know where this came from...(mom was English and
dad from New Zealand)...but you take a piece of bread and fry it in bacon
fat dripping...with the morning breakfast of scrambled eggs and tomatoes!!
Not often do I eat it..grin, but it's good! 
Cindy


>In a message dated 2/2/99 8:49:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
>pigznpawz@mindspring.com writes:
>
><< A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any good unless you
>fry
> it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;) >>
>
>I will stack the Quebecers up against the Dixiecrats any time for their
>love of all things hog fat.
>
>A singular delicacy is fried slices of what we New Englanders call
>salt pork, it may be called fat back in the South.  The also like to
>spread their bread with that stuff that coagulates in the bottom 
>of the roasting pork pan.
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 18:34:49 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 17:18:59 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.91859.0>
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I have my glass rack mounted in the back of a Chevy El Camino. The low side
makes it convient to handle glass in and out. With the help of the air
shocks can rack 100+ sheets of glass, 250 pounds of lead came and a case of
Spectrum in one load. I routinely transport glass fron Los Angeles to
Escondido, a distance of about 90 miles, at 70 MPH.

About once in ten trips will I have a sheet of glass cracked- likely due to
a "stone" or pressure point on an adjacent piece of glass. I use double
nylon cynch straps and adjust them moderately tight. I have never had any
damage to transported glass from road trash.

I know of a studio that backed out of the driveway and had 14 cabinet door
panels fall over due to not being strapped. Broke six. I often stop for
coffee halfway on my trip down from LA and will check the load before
getting underway again. Moderate tightening is often in order. I would have
no reservations in transporting glass or panels across country by this
method. Of course, I would want to take some provision to insure against
thieft.

If the chance comes my way I might get something like a 1932 Ford pickup
truck to transport glass. Might just park it while loaded with a likely
panel where the public could see it.

Bob

>2. I was once flagged down by a fellow motorest and given an order.

Hey Bob...first time I read that I read ticket instead of order...thought
maybe it was illegal in Calif to leave your glass exposed :) (thinking of
Patrick and his tutu here).  So if you leave the glass uncovered it's like a
rolling billboard!!

In all seriousness though, I'm wondering how far you transport glass and at
what speed?

Many of my deliveries require highway speed travel for 4 hours...I tend to
go through a new windshield every couple of years thanks to flying rocks
kicked up by other motorists.

Are your deliveries similar?  And you've never had a flying rock problem?

What about when your truck is unattended?  Do you have concerns about
vandalism?  For me, I can see a double edged sword here...waiting hours in a
parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism during
the 2 hour ferry ride?

Guess I'd like to hear more about your delivery trips...how long are they?

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net
Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 18:41:37 1999
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:25:43 -0500
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I think you COVER the bacon with the paper towels so you don't waste any of that
lovely grease by splattering it around.

(If you are making a cake, don't grease the cake tins with bacon grease....a
lesson learned at the age of 13 while living in Florida.)

CncptThnkr@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/1/99 10:38:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:
>
> >  1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be instructed later how
> >  to
> >  > > use it.
>
> Suzanne de Tulsa,
>
> Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the paper
> towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??
>
> Take care.
>
> IA
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:13:13 1999
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Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 20:37:47 -0500
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Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> most people don't think about: where do stained glass windows come from,
> anyway? How do they get where they're going? etc. etc.
>

I sometimes think I ought to carry around a couple largish suncatchers to hang in
my car windows -- like from the hooks for clothes hangers -- when i'm parked at
the shopping center....  Telephone number discretely displayed, of course.

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:13:39 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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What? Who? ME?
A Battleaxe of a Swedish Viking being called an "English Chick" 
:-<
Ghrumphhh!
That'll be the day!!
Toby! Here Boy! Let go of that woman's leg
E 'n T IN Uk ( ...not OF!!)

Tulsa Suzanne wrote:
Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
going to learn to do lead work soon! ;o)  Waiting for this really cool
English chick to visit the USA...I bet you hear about her soon too.

----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:32:12 1999
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Subject: Re: NG-about that bacon grease......
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Hi All,
Not only have I glandular fever, ear infection and goodness knows 
what else..... BUT my computer also CRASHED on me!!!
Bahh-haaa!!!
Spent almost a week without  any mail, nor able to while away my 
sickbed hours answering mail and being cheered up.
My ears are crackling away and I'm as deaf as a post (....so! What's 
NEW!!)
Kris - my computer-knight in wonderful shining armour has just 
rescued me and so I'm back on line again.
BACON!!!! Did someone mention B A C O N   ????!!!
I drool for BACON after eating liquid food for the last 7 weeks!!
Suzanne in Tulsa, you sound just my kind of COOK!! 
MICROWAVE bacon. Total sacrilege!!! Either frying pan ( = skillet??) 
or maximum under the grill for me.

Anyone coming to stay with me here in UK will almost certainly be 
served a full English breakfast ; grilled/fried bacon, sausages,  
fried eggs, grilled mushrooms ( in bacon fat), grilled tomatoes on a 
bed of hot toast, together with a generous portion of baked beans; 
fried potato slices and huge mugs of Earl Grey Tea.
Mopping away the bacon fat with kitchen paper?? Nah!!!
Right now.... Sigh.... Pigs might fly.....
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK


IA's enquiring mind wants to know:

>Suzanne de Tulsa,
>
>Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the
paper
>towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??  

Hell, no! Y' cain't cook bacon in no newfangled gadget like that! Y'all gotta
use a big ol' cast-arn skillet!


Sparks		Born in California but with a grammaw an' grampaw from
			Arkinsaw, who larned me real good that the basic food groups
			are hambeans, Wonder bread, and milk gravy made with
			that good ol' bacon grease
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----
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http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:36:59 1999
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Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:18:58 +0000
Message-ID: <199902030145.BAA16250@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk

 I've lost someone special in my extended family
 
Ok Folks,
Bob's wife is called Maxine
Bob won't need us anymore, She quite likely just might. She sounds a 
wonderfully warm person.  I have had a couple of e-mails from her 
(before my system crashed!!)
So let's remember by  keeping in touch with HER!
And not just NOW, but even more importantly, in a year's time....
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK


 Just needed to share that.
 Shirley B >>


Oh this was wonderful.


----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:54:28 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Snail Mail Address Bob Shyguy
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 01:18:58 +0000
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Dear Glenna,
Thank you for posting that snail mail address.
I - for one - will write to Maxine via snailmail.
We may be terribly keen and anxious to "talk" stained glass.
There is room for human interactions too - something I have always 
advocated.  The memories and statements about Bob.... just speak for 
themselves.
We have lost not just a stained glass artist, not just a "Bunginian" 
but a lovely person too.....and so many people have anecdotes to 
tell.
That is only right.
What concerns me is that Maxine should be able to  find support from 
us in 12 months time. Right now, her family and friends are / will be 
rallying around.  The hardest time is the time when everyone walks 
off to live their own lives, with THEIR loved ones and you are left 
there sitting there with this awful gap in your life, this painful 
hollow that gnaws away at you. It's THAT which takes its time to eat 
its way through.  It isn't instant, it takes time before it really 
hits you in the face.
So can we please get together in 12 months time to remember Bob 
Shyguy and - perhaps - be "THERE" for Maxine.....
I do hope so........
Life just isn't fair.... it has never claimed to be.  It's up to each 
and every one of us to redress the balance..
Thank you Glenna!

Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK



Glenna Rand wrote:

 Maxine Meyerhardt (I'm a feminest and didn't take Bob's 
name which was van Valen)
130 Atlantic Avenue
Massapequa Park, NY 11762

His sons are Derek and Marshall van Valen

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 19:56:41 1999
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-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:	INTERNET:MAILER-DAEMON@daver.bungi.com, INTERNET:MAILER-DAEMON@dave=
r.bungi.com
To:	[unknown], GreerStudios
	=

Date:	2/2/99  5:20 PM

RE:	mail failed, returning to sender

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Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:18:46 -0500
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Subject: Not again!  Argghhhhh!
Sender: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <all@bungi.com>
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Hi everyone-

My computer kicked the bucket again today, so I'm in the process of getti=
=3D
ng
to know my new one (so far I hate it!)  Also has new CompuServe software
and
I'm totally in the dark.  Hope this gets to you.  Please post something s=
=3D
o
I can
add you to my address book again and could someone send me the IGGA
board addresses?  =3D


Phfzzztttt! :-(

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =3D

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:12:16 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@mail.n-link.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:49:49 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.144949.0>
Precedence: bulk

Not really. Actually, I translated it for her, and told her I never argue
with 5 year old .... They win too often.
Boy .... do I need to get back to the studio,


-----Original Message-----
From: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@mail.n-link.com
<daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@mail.n-link.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick


>This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4EDE.19908D04
>Content-Type: text/plain
>
>Jerri
>
>Comparing Patrick to a 5 yr. old?
>Isn't that being unfair to Patrick?
>
>Vic M.
>vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
>
>PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and northern bachelors
>use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
>Microwave till hot.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerri [mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:02 AM
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
>
> A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any
>good unless you fry
> it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;)
>
> Jerri
> from Georgia
>
>
> P.S. Patrick,  my 5 yr. old will argue with you.  It
>really goes, "I'm late.
> I'm late.  I'm being fortune tate."  I haven't quite
>figured out what that
> means, but I'm corrected every time I say "for a very
>important date."
>
>
>
>
> >
> >>  1. Save all manner of bacon grease.  You will be
>instructed later how
> >>  to
> >>  > > use it.
> >
> >Suzanne de Tulsa,
> >
> >Ummm, after you microwave the bacon do you squeeze the
>grease out of the
> paper
> >towels????  True northerner here, can ya tell??
> >
> >Take care.
> >
> >IA
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to:
>glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to:
>glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4EDE.19908D04
>Content-Type: text/html
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Dus-ascii">
><META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
>5.5.1960.3">
><TITLE>RE: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jerri</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Comparing Patrick to a 5 yr. old? =
></FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Isn't that being unfair to =
>Patrick?</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M. </FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">vmodiano@ctronsoft.com </FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">PS I Have it on good authority that =
>both southern and northern bachelors use the same recipe for bacon (and =
>everything else):</FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Microwave till hot.</FONT>
></P>
><UL><UL>
><P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
>Message-----</FONT></A>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Jerri [<A =
>HREF=3D"mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com" =
>TARGET=3D"_blank">mailto:pigznpawz@mindspring.com</A>]</FONT></B>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
>SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, February 02, 1999 11:02 AM</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">NG--Southerners, oh and you too, =
>Patrick</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A true Southerner doesn't microwave =
>bacon.&nbsp; It's not any good unless you fry</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it and really soak it in it's own =
>grease.&nbsp; ;)</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Jerri</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">from Georgia</FONT>
></P>
><BR>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">P.S. Patrick,&nbsp; my 5 yr. old will =
>argue with you.&nbsp; It really goes, &quot;I'm late.</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm late.&nbsp; I'm being fortune =
>tate.&quot;&nbsp; I haven't quite figured out what that</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">means, but I'm corrected every time I =
>say &quot;for a very important date.&quot;</FONT>
></P>
><BR>
><BR>
><BR>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; 1. Save all manner of =
>bacon grease.&nbsp; You will be instructed later how</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; to</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;&gt;&nbsp; &gt; &gt; use =
>it.</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Suzanne de Tulsa,</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Ummm, after you microwave the =
>bacon do you squeeze the grease out of the</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">paper</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;towels????&nbsp; True northerner =
>here, can ya tell??</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Take care.</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;IA</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
>to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
>list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
>glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
>HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
>TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
></P>
></UL></UL>
></BODY>
></HTML>
>------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4EDE.19908D04--
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:21:00 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Charles Spitzer" <Charles_Spitzer@stratus.com>, "glass" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: using shopvac in glass workshops
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:54:34 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.145434.0>
Precedence: bulk

I think what she is saying is vacuuming the Morton grid system and getting
out the shards. I never vacuum the grinder.


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Spitzer <Charles_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 3:48 PM
Subject: using shopvac in glass workshops


>-----Original Message-----
>From: mschatee@juno.com <mschatee@juno.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 10:38 AM
>Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
>
>
><snip>
>>(By the way I'm sucking with a shop vac which I bought after the
>>last storm).  Actually I'm glad I had to buy the shop vac since I am now
>>using it to clean the glass shards out of my Morton grid and the water
>>and guk out of my grinder.
>>So back to the basement for me (and I planned on doing glass today).  Gee
>>do you think I'd have a problem soldering in a puddle of water?
>>
>>Enjoying being a Northerner (NOT)
>>
>>Caren
>
>anyone but me see the problem with this? i don't think the sleeve filter on
>your shopvac will stop too much glass dust, and thus when it dries and you
>turn it on again, you've filled your workshop air with loads of glass dust.
>unless you're using a respirator, i don't think you want to do this.
>
>scrape out your grinder dust while it is still wet, and discard in a closed
>bag immediately.
>
>regards,
>charlie
>phx, az
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:28:31 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Conure Pattern
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:19:26 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.151926.0>
Precedence: bulk

There has been such a demand for this pattern I'll complete the rest who
haven't received them yet.
Anybody else?? Just ask .... Its free.

BTW I just got my photos back and will email a jpg file to anyone who would
like it. (except the canine from Cornwall who will probably eat it)

PS Forgot all about the archived patterns we have. Who is in charge of that
and I send the pattern and jpg to you for future use.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:35:31 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG--hot bacon?
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 20:58:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.145816.0>
Precedence: bulk

Albert,

I feel sorry for you. You are sick as I am.  ROFL

-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 4:15 PM
Subject: RE: NG--hot bacon?


>
>> PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and northern bachelors
>> use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
>> Microwave till hot.
>
>
>The bacon or the bachelor?
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:41:15 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What goes on?
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:33:26 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.153326.0>
Precedence: bulk

E'

You did post you were a" Mother Hen, cluck, cluck, cluck." Now you are an
"English Chick". As least she didn't call you a "Chipie" or a "Bird". LOL

You are back to your same old self. Looking forward to your visit (like the
chicken pox) LOL

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: What goes on?


>What? Who? ME?
>A Battleaxe of a Swedish Viking being called an "English Chick"
>:-<
>Ghrumphhh!
>That'll be the day!!
>Toby! Here Boy! Let go of that woman's leg
>E 'n T IN Uk ( ...not OF!!)
>
>Tulsa Suzanne wrote:
>Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
>going to learn to do lead work soon! ;o)  Waiting for this really cool
>English chick to visit the USA...I bet you hear about her soon too.
>
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:49:33 1999
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To: Cindy Pesonen <cpesonen@uniserve.com>
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Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:15:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.111517.0>
References: <<E107qoc-0007Ao-00@pop.uniserve.com>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Cindy Pesonen wrote:
> 
> Okay...this got my attention:)
> Bacon fat, eh??? I don't know where this came from...(mom was English and
> dad from New Zealand)...but you take a piece of bread and fry it in bacon
> fat dripping...with the morning breakfast of scrambled eggs and tomatoes!!
> Not often do I eat it..grin, but it's good!
> Cindy
> 
> >In a message dated 2/2/99 8:49:51 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> >pigznpawz@mindspring.com writes:
> >
> ><< A true Southerner doesn't microwave bacon.  It's not any good unless you
> >fry
> > it and really soak it in it's own grease.  ;) >>
> >
> >I will stack the Quebecers up against the Dixiecrats any time for their
> >love of all things hog fat.
> >
> >A singular delicacy is fried slices of what we New Englanders call
> >salt pork, it may be called fat back in the South.  The also like to
> >spread their bread with that stuff that coagulates in the bottom
> >of the roasting pork pan.
> >
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> 

I have heard of this...my mother is from England too and she was in the
Navy and apparently the bread and bacon fat business was what they'd all
sneak down to the kitchen and gorge on after dinner.  Apparently she got
pretty big too in the course of things...she lost it all  but I just
cant imagine a bedtime snack every nite of bacon grease and bread...ugh.
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 20:50:28 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Family Account" <shad@mail2.nai.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:34:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.153429.0>
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Why Not??

It pays to advertise.

-----Original Message-----
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:24 PM
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass


>
>
>Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
>
>> most people don't think about: where do stained glass windows come from,
>> anyway? How do they get where they're going? etc. etc.
>>
>
>I sometimes think I ought to carry around a couple largish suncatchers to
hang in
>my car windows -- like from the hooks for clothes hangers -- when i'm
parked at
>the shopping center....  Telephone number discretely displayed, of course.
>
>Dorothy
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 21:21:24 1999
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From: Mosfunland@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: what is bungi? by L Nelson
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:37:10 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.43710.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,  One of the best things we do is commmmmmisserate....everyone is very
supportive here, and only once have we had to stand in the corner for bad
behavior.

Often someone finds a great website on glass and passes it to the
group....unlike meeting in a crowded room and someone passes you the
flu.....and eventually you will "meet" the members of the list through their
e-mails.  

Maureen

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 21:33:24 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: What goes on?
Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:05:15 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb2.17515.0>
References: <<1999Feb2.153326.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Now, listen here, before y'all go to sickin the dogs on me, that's a
compliment in my neck o' the woods!

Really, Elisabeth, you should know better! ;o)
let's see..what would a *really* bold student of yours in England say
just before ducking?  "Now, don't get your knickers twisted!"?

Tulsa Suzanne....
(Keep in mind Elisabeth, the kids are asleep, I'm windin down, and I've
had/having my wine!) 

Pat Kelly wrote:
> 
> E'
> 
> You did post you were a" Mother Hen, cluck, cluck, cluck." Now you are an
> "English Chick". As least she didn't call you a "Chipie" or a "Bird". LOL
> 
> You are back to your same old self. Looking forward to your visit (like the
> chicken pox) LOL
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Tuesday, February 02, 1999 9:24 PM
> Subject: Re: What goes on?
> 
> >What? Who? ME?
> >A Battleaxe of a Swedish Viking being called an "English Chick"
> >:-<
> >Ghrumphhh!
> >That'll be the day!!
> >Toby! Here Boy! Let go of that woman's leg
> >E 'n T IN Uk ( ...not OF!!)
> >
> >Tulsa Suzanne wrote:
> >Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am
> >going to learn to do lead work soon! ;o)  Waiting for this really cool
> >English chick to visit the USA...I bet you hear about her soon too.
> >
> >----
> >As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> >North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> >http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> >----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 21:54:05 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Carol Swann" <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:21:00 -0800
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Carol Swann writes, in part:
>>Thanks for answering Bob.  I appreciate the advice.  Sheet glass I get
delivered to my door once a month by my wholesaler...he puts them right into
the racks.  Pay $20 towards delivery whether it's a $200 order or a $1000
order. <<

No chance of me getting that service but I would sure like to. You or anyone
else that sends me (not the list) a request will get a JPEG attachment of my
glass rack. It was purchased from Pacific Glass, Gardinia, CA., but a handy
person should be able to construct one from the picture.

Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  2 22:09:08 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 21:26:42 -0800
Message-ID: <199902030526.VAA28661@oceanus.island.net>
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Why Not??
>
>It pays to advertise.

>>Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
>>
>>> most people don't think about: where do stained glass windows come from,
>>> anyway? How do they get where they're going? etc. etc.
>>>
>>
>>I sometimes think I ought to carry around a couple largish suncatchers to
>hang in
>>my car windows -- like from the hooks for clothes hangers -- when i'm
>parked at
>>the shopping center....  Telephone number discretely displayed, of course.
>>
>>Dorothy

On glass racks I'm planning, part of the plan is to add studio name, phone
number and slogan  "you imagine it...we create it", sort of an unbreakable
version of Dorothy's "earrings for her car"...the suncatchers she hangs in
the window.

There's only one drawback to this...gotta keep the truck washed, waxed and
polished :( if it's gonna be a travelling billboard.  Maybe I should get the
dent from its close inspection of a ditch taken out too :)

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 01:49:53 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Cindy Pesonen" <cpesonen@uniserve.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Winge winge!
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 09:07:33 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.9733.0>
Precedence: bulk

The full English breakfast is great and who's worried about chloesterol
(sp?) anyway but why have I not heard you talk about beef dripping on toast?
The ultimate artery clogging invention from old Blighty!

Beef dripping is a mixture of the cooking juices and the fat from roasting
beef! Ok it might sound disgusting but the Eskimos eat blubber and they have
the lowest cancer rate in the world!

If the English food of my mother isn't bad enough then my father's native
dishes - short ribs - chicken and dumplings - huge steaks - fudge brownies
would see me off properly!

I'm not allowed any of these excesses so I can only dream on!

BtB




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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 05:24:06 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Conure Pattern
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 08:08:55 -0800
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I would like pattern thanks Laura
I hope this goes threw I am not sure yet how this works but give me time and I
will figure it out then you all will get tired of hearing from me,,,,
Laura

Pat Kelly wrote:

> There has been such a demand for this pattern I'll complete the rest who
> haven't received them yet.
> Anybody else?? Just ask .... Its free.
>
> BTW I just got my photos back and will email a jpg file to anyone who would
> like it. (except the canine from Cornwall who will probably eat it)
>
> PS Forgot all about the archived patterns we have. Who is in charge of that
> and I send the pattern and jpg to you for future use.
>
> Patrick
> Roses and Rainbows
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 06:42:47 1999
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
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Subject: RE: What goes on?
Date: Wed Feb  3 06:19:46 1999
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------ =_NextPart_001_01BE4F7E.4295ABB2
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You are much closer to a chick than a battleaxe.
Aren't you the one with the pixie smile and sweet expression?
(Toby, please note the filet mignon scattered around the floor.)

Vic M.

PS I E-mailed WC asking how to reserve but haven't heard back yet. Is
this a good thing?  

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Toby [mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:19 PM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	Re: What goes on?

		What? Who? ME?
		A Battleaxe of a Swedish Viking being called an "English
Chick" 
		:-<
		Ghrumphhh!
		That'll be the day!!
		Toby! Here Boy! Let go of that woman's leg
		E 'n T IN Uk ( ...not OF!!)

		Tulsa Suzanne wrote:
		Myself, All I have ever done is copperfoil, and stepping
stones. But am
		going to learn to do lead work soon! ;o)  Waiting for
this really cool
		English chick to visit the USA...I bet you hear about
her soon too.

		----
		As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of
mind"
		North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
	
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
		----
		----
		For subscription changes, please mail to:
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charset=3Dus-ascii">
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</HEAD>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You are much closer to a chick than a =
battleaxe.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Aren't you the one with the pixie =
smile and sweet expression?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(Toby, please note the filet mignon =
scattered around the floor.)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">PS I E-mailed WC asking how to reserve =
but haven't heard back yet. Is this a good thing?&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Toby [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk</A>]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, February 02, 1999 8:19 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: What goes on?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What? Who? ME?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A Battleaxe of a Swedish Viking being =
called an &quot;English Chick&quot; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">:-&lt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ghrumphhh!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">That'll be the day!!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Toby! Here Boy! Let go of that =
woman's leg</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">E 'n T IN Uk ( ...not OF!!)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tulsa Suzanne wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Myself, All I have ever done is =
copperfoil, and stepping stones. But am</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">going to learn to do lead work soon! =
;o)&nbsp; Waiting for this really cool</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">English chick to visit the USA...I =
bet you hear about her soon too.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As my grandmother said &quot;...there =
is only nobility of mind&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">North Lights Stained Glass - =
homepage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.=
htm</A> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
</UL></UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 07:26:37 1999
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: NG--hot bacon?
Date: Wed Feb  3 06:57:20 1999
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I think the bachelor holds the bacon in the microwave.
I'm married now and those single days memories are slowly being beaten,
um... forced out, er make that ....
Lets just call it selective memory loss and leave it at that.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
 

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Albert Lewis
[mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 02, 1999 10:37 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE: NG--hot bacon?


		> PS I Have it on good authority that both southern and
northern bachelors
		> use the same recipe for bacon (and everything else):
		> Microwave till hot.


		The bacon or the bachelor?
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I think the bachelor holds the bacon =
in the microwave.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm married now and those single days =
memories are slowly being beaten, um... forced out, er make that =
....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Lets just call it selective memory =
loss and leave it at that.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Albert Lewis [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net</A>]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, February 02, 1999 10:37 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: NG--hot bacon?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; PS I Have it on good authority =
that both southern and northern bachelors</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; use the same recipe for bacon =
(and everything else):</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Microwave till hot.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The bacon or the bachelor?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
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list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
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TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: NG--Southerners, oh and you too, Patrick
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:00:02 -0500
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Message text written by INTERNET:JJKIRBY@aol.com
>The also like to
spread their bread with that stuff that coagulates in the bottom =

of the roasting pork pan.<

Ugh.  I made the mistake of reading that while sipping my hot
tea & milk.  Yuck.  Too many memories here.

Christie A. Wood (raised in Shreveport, Louisiana where bacon grease rule=
s)
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG--hot bacon?
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 09:58:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.35833.0>
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Vic, 

When ever my husband thinks the house isnt as neat or clean as it should
be, I remind him what color the kitchen sink and bathtub were when we
met.  Even at it's worse now, it is *WAY* better than before! ;o)
Amazes me he didnt get some awful disease!

Tulsa Suzanne
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:13:28 -0800
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1932 or even in the early 40's sure would look classy, Bob.
Good luck with your glass racks Carol. I can understand your concern while
on the ferry... Vandlism (sp..too early for spelling) is a scary thought,
but what can ya do, maybe a clear sheet of window glass on the exterior.
Cindy

>If the chance comes my way I might get something like a 1932 Ford pickup
>truck to transport glass. Might just park it while loaded with a likely
>panel where the public could see it.
>
>Bob

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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:14:04 -0800
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Unless you're making *pigs in a blankey*...(blanket), grin.
Cindy


>(If you are making a cake, don't grease the cake tins with bacon grease....a
>lesson learned at the age of 13 while living in Florida.)
>
>

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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Winge winge!
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:14:55 -0800
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>Yikes...we did eat alot of that too. The Sunday roast lasted a long time.
The finial last supper of it was after your namesake Brian:)...Shepherd's
pie.<VBG>.
>Beef dripping on toast was ultimately my sister's fav, but I have learnt to
make excellent gravy:):)
>Cindy
>
>
>>The full English breakfast is great and who's worried about chloesterol
>>(sp?) anyway but why have I not heard you talk about beef dripping on toast?
>>The ultimate artery clogging invention from old Blighty!
>>
>>Beef dripping is a mixture of the cooking juices and the fat from roasting
>>beef! Ok it might sound disgusting but the Eskimos eat blubber and they have
>>the lowest cancer rate in the world!
>>
>>If the English food of my mother isn't bad enough then my father's native
>>dishes - short ribs - chicken and dumplings - huge steaks - fudge brownies
>>would see me off properly!
>>
>>I'm not allowed any of these excesses so I can only dream on!
>>
>>BtB
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>

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From: "Kathe R. Mc Donald" <krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'Toby'" <toby@northlights.co.uk>, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 08:11:27 -0600
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Come on, folks, let's don't get Elisabeth riled up (English chick).  I 
 fear that these frequent illnesses she's had of late could be stress 
related.....what with these tales of how us Yanks eat. Don't worry 
Elisabeth...we'll all be on our good behavior and won't subject you to any 
culinary frights.  We're all in for a treat....I've spent more than a few 
nights raising a glass with her and she's only better in person.  I, for 
one,can't wait until she gets over here.  I want to know, however, how come 
I didn't get the mushrooms with my breakfast????

  
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X-Path: detroit.freenet.org!ae479
From: ae479@detroit.freenet.org (Sue Becker)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: prairie lamps
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:22:51 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199902031722.MAA10271@detroit.freenet.org>
Precedence: bulk


We have a group getting ready to assemble the four sides of prairie
lamps.  I know they will not be rigid and plan to reinforce them.
with 18g.wire.  Has anyone tried putting a spider in and then 
attaching the vase cap just by screwing down on the harp.  Opinions
would be most welcome - would it be stronger or just a waste of time.

  
Reply-To: ae479@detroit.freenet.org
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 10:23:31 1999
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From: GlassLites@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:19:40 EST
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In a message dated 2/2/99, 4:24:39 PM, Vic writes:

<<  This was probably
the most uncomfortable and potentially dangerous flights of my life.   Who
the h*ll knew you could kill yourself by flying first class?>>

It happens more often than you think. I have a 'day job' where I must fly all
over the country several times a year. Each time I fly I come home sick and am
out of work for several days. I head for my doctor who says upon seeing me
"you've been flying again, I see" and perscribes assorted antibiotics.

Several of my fellow workers are now (after years of flying) starting to have
the same complaints.

Flying ain't fun.

Cheryl Lowe
Glass Lites Studio
GlassLites@aol.com
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 10:24:01 1999
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From: GlassLites@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Re: NG-about that bacon grease......
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 12:30:09 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.17309.0>
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In a message dated 2/2/99, 10:50:24 PM, Elizabeth 'n Toby  writes:

<<Anyone coming to stay with me here in UK will almost certainly be 
served a full English breakfast ; grilled/fried bacon, sausages,  
fried eggs, grilled mushrooms ( in bacon fat), grilled tomatoes on a 
bed of hot toast, together with a generous portion of baked beans; 
fried potato slices and huge mugs of Earl Grey Tea.>>

Boy, does that sound good!!!! I don't have to be English to know good food
when I 'see' it!


Cheryl Lowe
Glass Lites Studio
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Subject: please subscribe me to the bungi mailing list. 
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:37:44 -0600
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I suspect that I may have been removed from the mailing list
because my server went nuts yesterday.

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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: ae479@detroit.freenet.org (Sue Becker), glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: prairie lamps
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 11:33:45 -0800
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At 12:22 PM 2/3/99 -0500, Sue Becker wrote:
>
>We have a group getting ready to assemble the four sides of prairie
>lamps.  I know they will not be rigid and plan to reinforce them.
>with 18g.wire.  Has anyone tried putting a spider in and then 
>attaching the vase cap just by screwing down on the harp.  Opinions
>would be most welcome - would it be stronger or just a waste of time.
>

I just use the vase cap, soldered securely all around the top.  The top
portion of the shade is plenty rigid with it alone.  I think soldering the
spider and then screwing (but not soldering) the vase case would result in
a flimsier shade unless the vase cap wraps around your panels *perfectly*.
 It never does for me.   If the shade is a bit large, the cap would tend to
slide to one side, rather than stay flat, as you tighten the screw.  If the
shade is small, the cap won't grip the panels evenly.

I have run a wire around the bottom edge to add a bit of strength there.
I've also found the bottom wire to be useful in situations where sharp
points come together at the bottom edge.  Because of my less-than-perfect
cutting skills, there is often a dip at those junctions that makes the
bottom solder beading uneven.  Having a wire span the dips gives the solder
something to grab so the finished edge looks straighter.

Steve
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Steve Wernecke'" <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: prairie lamps
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:30:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.103042.0>
Precedence: bulk


If the sides made a square box, the thing would flex and distort but because each side is a trapazoid, it adds it's own strength.  

Linda Campbell


-----Original Message-----
From:	Steve Wernecke [SMTP:steve@villagesoftsmith.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, February 03, 1999 2:34 PM
To:	Sue Becker; glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: prairie lamps

At 12:22 PM 2/3/99 -0500, Sue Becker wrote:
>
>We have a group getting ready to assemble the four sides of prairie
>lamps.  I know they will not be rigid and plan to reinforce them.
>with 18g.wire.  Has anyone tried putting a spider in and then 
>attaching the vase cap just by screwing down on the harp.  Opinions
>would be most welcome - would it be stronger or just a waste of time.
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 13:32:16 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG beef grease
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 12:37:15 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.43715.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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How come no one mentioned Yorkshire Pudding?  Popovers baked in roast
beef fat. My personal favorite from being raised by an English War Bride
mother.
Gotta say, after reading all these NG post, now I know why my mother is
so fond of frying everything.  Although I still suspect it was cause she
was/is such a busy person, it was done to save time.
Shirley B
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG $$ for research
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 16:00:51 -0600
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Hi all...

Sorry to post yet another NG post..but this one means something to me...

Being widowed by cancer (hard still not to think if it as a living
breathing hate filled entity), I have a personal interest. I also know 
that at least several others on this list have been personally involved
with battles with cancer. 

My daughter just opened a jar of yoplait yougurt to find under the lid
(which is pink) it says.. 

"Youplait will donate 50 cents to the *Breast Cancer Research Foundation
for each pink lid recieved by 4/30/99

The campain is called "Save Lids to Save Lives* (maximum donation
$100,000 guarenteed)  Then it goes on to give the address.

I personally think this is *way, way cool*...especially since I paid 49
cents for each jar of yougurt.  I intend to buy more. ;o)

Just wanted to share this with you.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 15:43:49 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Howard?
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 14:27:44 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.82744.0>
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I was reading a sg lamp book I bought today, and had a question, but it
occured to me I havent seen Howard online quite a while.

Howard, are you out there?

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 16:26:03 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Sue Becker <ae479@detroit.freenet.org>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: prairie lamps
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 15:33:58 -0800 (PST)
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Precedence: bulk

Sue:  Not sure i understand what you mean by attaching the vase cap by
screwing down on the harp.  Actually your spider would probably be
sufficient to hold the lamp.  The problem is that it will show in a
prairie style lamp.  I guess to answer your question, if you can attach
the vase cap for looks, then it is likely the spider will be sufficent to
hold the lamp.  Peggy

On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Sue Becker wrote:

> 
> We have a group getting ready to assemble the four sides of prairie
> lamps.  I know they will not be rigid and plan to reinforce them.
> with 18g.wire.  Has anyone tried putting a spider in and then 
> attaching the vase cap just by screwing down on the harp.  Opinions
> would be most welcome - would it be stronger or just a waste of time.
> 
>   
> Reply-To: ae479@detroit.freenet.org
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 16:51:55 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG $$ for research
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 18:48:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.134849.0>
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Thanks for the info! The post office also sells breast cancer stamps, cost a
few cents more but it's given to research.

On a related subject, anyone seen the latest LIFE magazine, the article on
doing your own funeral instead of going through a funeral home? It started
out about cost, but ended up bringing a lot more sanity and humanity to the
process.

Kris

>
>"Youplait will donate 50 cents to the *Breast Cancer Research Foundation
>for each pink lid recieved by 4/30/99


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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 17:28:05 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject:  Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 19:09:23 EST
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In a message dated 2/2/99 3:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
seaspray@mail.island.net writes:

<< .waiting hours in a
 parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
 orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism during
 the 2 hour ferry ride?  >>




We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?

"I'd rather be......"

what?


"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
"I'd rether be staining"  ?
"I'd rather be leading"  ?
"I'd rather be slumping"  ?

any ideas?


Dianne
Jacksonville, FL

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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 18:22:32 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 17:00:33 -0800
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>In a message dated 2/2/99 3:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>seaspray@mail.island.net writes:
>
><< .waiting hours in a
> parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
> orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism during
> the 2 hour ferry ride?  >>
>
>
>
>
>We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
>
>"I'd rather be......"
>
>what?
>
>
>"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
>"I'd rether be staining"  ?
>"I'd rather be leading"  ?
>"I'd rather be slumping"  ?
>
>any ideas?

I'd rather be SCORING...of course!!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 18:45:47 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: PDRUSS@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 19:49:42 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.134942.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.0923.0>>
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> We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
> 
> "I'd rather be......"
> 
> what?
> 
> 
> "I'd rather be glassing"  ?
> "I'd rether be staining"  ?
> "I'd rather be leading"  ?
> "I'd rather be slumping"  ?
> 
> any ideas?
> 
> 
> Dianne
> Jacksonville, FL
> 


I'd rather be scoring?

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 18:56:30 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 20:46:20 -0500
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2/3/99 7:09 PM PDRUSS@aol.com PDRUSS@aol.com

>We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
>
>"I'd rather be......"
>
>what?
>
>
>"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
>"I'd rether be staining"  ?
>"I'd rather be leading"  ?
>"I'd rather be slumping"  ?

Glassing takes my vote. 
Staining could be misread!
Leading could be read as leading, as in not following.
Slumping could sound like you're tired.

Glassing covers it all!

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 20:07:15 1999
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From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: <PDRUSS@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 21:03:02 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.1532.0>
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How about

I'd rather be scoring

Cathie
-----Original Message-----
From: PDRUSS@aol.com <PDRUSS@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass


>In a message dated 2/2/99 3:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>seaspray@mail.island.net writes:
>
><< .waiting hours in a
> parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
> orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism
during
> the 2 hour ferry ride?  >>
>
>
>
>
>We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
>
>"I'd rather be......"
>
>what?
>
>
>"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
>"I'd rether be staining"  ?
>"I'd rather be leading"  ?
>"I'd rather be slumping"  ?
>
>any ideas?
>
>
>Dianne
>Jacksonville, FL
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb  3 20:35:03 1999
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From: Carolyn Noel <glasscat@infinet.com>
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Subject: Re: NG-advice for Northerners
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 22:03:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.1734.0>
References: <<1999Feb3.171940.0>>
Organization: The Stained Glass Place
Precedence: bulk

That "recycled" air will do it every time! Definitely bad for your
health.
Carolyn
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 00:12:47 1999
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Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Wed Feb  3 21:47:27 1999
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of course my sick mind comes up with

    "i'll play with your glass if you'll play with mine"


-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass


>>In a message dated 2/2/99 3:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>>seaspray@mail.island.net writes:
>>
>><< .waiting hours in a
>> parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
>> orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism
during
>> the 2 hour ferry ride?  >>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
>>
>>"I'd rather be......"
>>
>>what?
>>
>>
>>"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
>>"I'd rether be staining"  ?
>>"I'd rather be leading"  ?
>>"I'd rather be slumping"  ?
>>
>>any ideas?
>
>I'd rather be SCORING...of course!!
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>
>check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
>http://come.to/The_E-Tour
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 07:57:21 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: PDRUSS@aol.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:13:29 PST
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[In the message entitled "Re: glass racks/transporting glass" on Feb  3, 19:09, PDRUSS@aol.com writes:]

> 
> We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
> 
> "I'd rather be......"
> 
> what?
> 
> "I'd rather be glassing"  ?
> "I'd rether be staining"  ?
> "I'd rather be leading"  ?
> "I'd rather be slumping"  ?

Glassers know the "score"


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 08:21:41 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: bdudack@mediaone.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 06:47:59 EST
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Cathi,
My favorite is scoring also.  However, unless you wish to attract men who are
just interested in having sex with you, I think that scoring (by itself) would
not express your true interest.  "I'd rather be scoring (glass)" or "I'd
rather be scoring glass" would be much safer.  Unless you want to hear honking
and wonder what the commotion is about when you pass trucks and cars on the
highway!!!  <BG>
Lenore


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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 08:38:32 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bumper Sticker...
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 07:15:09 -0500
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How about....Get Glassed!

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 08:51:14 1999
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From: "Carol Sulik" <sally4th@prodigy.net>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: gold patina? 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:42:47 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022.B8B607C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I am trying to help out a glass shop to make a repair on an angel that =
was brought in. A piece of glass from the the angel's skirt broke when =
the angel fell after the suction cup failed. The angel looks like it has =
been soldered with gold solder.....or patinaed in a bright gold. Do any =
of you have any idea how this was accomplished? They have checked out =
all of their supply catalogs and can't seem to locate anything that =
would work for the repair. I would appreciate any suggestions I could =
forward to them. Thanks


------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022.B8B607C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3612.1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am trying to help out a glass shop =
to make a=20
repair on an angel that was brought in. A piece of glass from the the =
angel's=20
skirt broke when the angel fell after the suction cup failed. The angel =
looks=20
like it has been soldered with gold solder.....or patinaed in a bright =
gold. Do=20
any of you have any idea how this was accomplished? They have checked =
out all of=20
their supply catalogs and can't seem to locate anything that would work =
for the=20
repair. I would appreciate any suggestions I could forward to them.=20
Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022.B8B607C0--

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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bumper Stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:03:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.18340.0>
Precedence: bulk

I'd rather be scoring ..... than snoring! Uh ....Oh here we go again.
LOL



We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
> 
> "I'd rather be......"
> 
> what?
> 
> 
> "I'd rather be glassing"  ?
> "I'd rether be staining"  ?
> "I'd rather be leading"  ?
> "I'd rather be slumping"  ?
> 
> any ideas?
> 
> 
> Dianne
> Jacksonville, FL
> 


I'd rather be scoring?

Tulsa Suzanne

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 09:21:03 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bumper Stickers and The E tour
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 00:08:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb3.18833.0>
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How about having the stickers made and selling them to the list members to
help finance that
Brit Chick's tour? (seriously)

Or maybe a lemonade stand? (not so serious)
Or maybe we could put on a show Darlene? (even less serious)

This is my brain on bacon grease sandwiches.

Got to get some sleep .  z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z z

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 09:25:05 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 10:16:11 -0600
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> > "I'd rather be......"
> > 
> > what?
> > 
> > "I'd rather be glassing"  ?
> > "I'd rether be staining"  ?
> > "I'd rather be leading"  ?
> > "I'd rather be slumping"  ?
> 
> Glassers know the "score"
> 


Good one, Glenna!

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 09:51:44 1999
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Subject: rather be scoring
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:18:44 -0500
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References: <<199902040146.UAA01970@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

Not "clear" enough unless you are displaying glass.

Glass workers would rather be scoring

Old stained glass workers never die, they just keep on scoring

(Is silly season here yet?)

Dorothy



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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 09:52:20 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: barbaraelmore@yahoo.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:43:56 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.164356.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I'm reading this after being away for a few days, and knoowing this group,
you've probably got 20 reply already, but just in case, here goes!

I've recently done several all zinc channel windows, and did cut all of the
came with a hacksaw (now have elec. came saw on order, however!!) I used a
wooden miter box, which I clamped (tightly) to the bench, added some wooden
stock to bring the came up to cutting range, and (I think this is the key to
avoiding collapse) used two strong 
spring scissors type clamps , each places on one side of the cut to be made,
which clamping holds the came tightly against the cutting stop of the miter
box, thereby eliminating any chance of "wiggle". I found that I got good cuts,
(some minor filing needed). At best, however, the hand method is very
frustrating, so I bit the bullet and got the came saw.!!

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, Ca.
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 10:00:27 1999
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From: "Karen F." <classi@sssnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG: Bumper Sticker thoughts
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 08:24:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.32458.0>
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Just humor me. My friends do when I get on one of these "rolls".

"Life is a multicolored Pane."

"Life is a Pane in the Glass"

"I look at life thru multicolored glasses"

"If the pieces fit.....solder them!"


OK. I have that out of my system so now I'll go to work. Thanks for the
therapy this morning fellow Bungians.

Regards,
Karen F.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 10:23:36 1999
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From: leestat7 <leestat7@home.com>
To: artmetal@wugate.wustl.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: FWIW-for what it's worth-
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 11:48:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.64850.0>
References: <<3.0.32.19990204095311.00a8ed48@mtn.org>>
Organization: @Home Network
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I wrote for some equipment catalogs, now I'm deluged with stuff!!! But
this is a good possibility for metal or glass blasting.

Northern Equipment & Supply.
Burnsville,MN (for shipping info)

1/800-556-7885

http://www.northern-online.com

just now tried the link, it is slow.

Have no contact with this company or info on doing business with it,
but the generators, pressure washers, blasting cabinets, and other
industrial equipment looks pretty good, at least in price. Even some
benders and machine shop stuff.  Blasting cabinets caught my eye as the
glass list has had some inquiry about blasting/etching glass.

Disclaimer (;-) ) I have no experience with them just got a catalog in
the mail.

BTW, sent this to all 3 glass lists, in case you subscribe to more than
one, that's why you got more than one copy.

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

Lee Boe
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 10:26:05 1999
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From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:26:24 CST 6CDT
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snip <We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?> snip

The mind runs amok.....

"I'd rather be scoring" is great, but not likely to be appreciated by 
the world at large....how about.....????

"Honk if you love stained glass"

"If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"

"Visualize....stained glass"

"My windows can beat your windows"

                    /\                            _________________          
                  /    \                          \                            /
                /        \                         \   Stained Glass  /
              / Beauty \                        \         on          /
            /      on      \                        \     Board      /
          /      Board    \                         \                /
         /____________\                         \_______/           


"View the world through stained glass"

As I was pondering, Glenna came up with "glassers know the 
score."  Good'un.  Or maybe "glassers know how to score."

Ok, back to work....

Kaye
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X-Path: ipa.net!gecko
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 11:46:08 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.5468.0>
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I thought this was a cute thread, but I had no plans of posting in reference
to it...
Unfortunately, it appears I'm doing just that.

Glass Artists Do It in the SUNSHINE!

There.
Aren't you all ashamed of yourselves... FORCING me to embarrass myself with
such a shameless post?!
:-))
I'm heading back to lurkdom now.
...Hmmmm... with the lights on?...
no, no... that's not right...
...do it with pliers?... no, I don't think the worlds ready for that one
either....
...with tiny strips of sticky, shiny, copper tape?...
no, but it sounds like fun.... (careful, that stuff's sharp!)

I'll keep working on it.  Thank you for giving me something to occupy my
deviant little mind!
Blake
:-)

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 10:55:09 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Restoration
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 09:42:29 PST
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Precedence: bulk

Hi folks,

Well I'm finally tackling my second lead experience.  An old panel
I received broken in cluster pieces.  I figured out the pattern,..I think!
All is going not too bad.  Of course if I had a rubbing (which I found out
too late) it would help.
The piece is about 12 1/2" X 35"   Although the original piece was larger,
but some pieces couldn't be salvaged.  I had to reduce the design
somewhat.
I plan on setting it into a wood frame after and returning it to my
neighbors for their anniversary.
They gave the glass to me to see if I could use any of it.  Some other
glass is very old.  Early 1900's
Their 50th is coming in May.  I figure it would be the perfect present.

Any tips from you leaders?


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 11:25:32 1999
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X-Path: softhouse.com!giapet
From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>, "Carol Sulik" <sally4th@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: gold patina? 
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:39:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.83959.0>
Precedence: bulk



Carol,



Sounds like the angel was electro-plated with gold..  That's how the really bright silver and gold finishes are done..  If thats the case you could fix and have it plated again........I think..



Karen





>This is a multi-part message in MIME format..

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022..B8B607C0

>Content-Type: text/plain;

> charset="iso-8859-1"

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

>I am trying to help out a glass shop to make a repair on an angel that =

>was brought in.. A piece of glass from the the angel's skirt broke when =

>the angel fell after the suction cup failed.. The angel looks like it has =

>been soldered with gold solder..........or patinaed in a bright gold.. Do any =

>of you have any idea how this was accomplished? They have checked out =

>all of their supply catalogs and can't seem to locate anything that =

>would work for the repair.. I would appreciate any suggestions I could =

>forward to them.. Thanks

>

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022..B8B607C0

>Content-Type: text/html;

> charset="iso-8859-1"

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

><HTML>

><HEAD>

>

><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =

>http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4..72..3612..1700"' name=3DGENERATOR>

></HEAD>

><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I am trying to help out a glass shop =

>to make a=20

>repair on an angel that was brought in.. A piece of glass from the the =

>angel's=20

>skirt broke when the angel fell after the suction cup failed.. The angel =

>looks=20

>like it has been soldered with gold solder..........or patinaed in a bright =

>gold.. Do=20

>any of you have any idea how this was accomplished? They have checked =

>out all of=20

>their supply catalogs and can't seem to locate anything that would work =

>for the=20

>repair.. I would appreciate any suggestions I could forward to them..=20

>Thanks</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0052_01BE5022..B8B607C0--

>

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>Archives available at http://www..bungi..com/glass

>



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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 11:56:18 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:53:37 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.65337.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.5468.0>>
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.....or 

Glass artists keep the lights on

glass artists score with the lights on...(tacky tacky tacky)

real artists are a pane in the glass! (probably more acurate) ;o)
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 12:18:20 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: not all
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 10:58:31 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.25831.0>
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I do it in DARKNESS!

how about glass workers score more!
glass workers love bits and pieces
, Enjoy, H

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 12:23:45 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: gold patina?
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:59:51 -0500
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Sounds like it's been plated.... there's really no such thing as a gold
patina. Even the brass patina available is nothing more than a weak coppe=
r
patina with some added chemicals.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 12:51:19 1999
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To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: glass bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 14:59:48 -0500
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How about:

I'd rather be scoring than breaking up.

Or for bad days... you have to be cracked to work in glass.

Or here's Michael's contribution:

Want to foil around?

This could get ugly....;-)

Best,

Dani Greer =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 13:30:33 1999
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From: Kay Frith Allen <fullspec@sunset.net>
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Subject: Circle cutter
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:08:24 -0800
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Hi,
I lost the instructions to my Fletcher small circle cutter and now I need
to cut some 2 inch circles out of mirror.  Will someone please tell me how
to use it?  Thanks a bunch.
Kay
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 13:34:53 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bumper Sticker
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:21:13 -0500
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Hows about...You bet your sweet glass...

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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject:  RE:  gold patina
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:30:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.103043.0>
Precedence: bulk

Carol,

Sounds like the angel was electro-plated with gold. That's how the really
bright silver and gold finishes are done. If thats the case you could fix
and have it plated again....I think.

Karen




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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 14:38:45 1999
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From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:05:52 CST 6CDT
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I was surfing bumper stickers to get an idea what they'd cost to 
print and came across quite a few preprinted ones.  Many of them 
were offensive, but I particularly liked these:

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

Warning:  dates in calendar are closer than they appear.

Lottery:  a tax on people who are bad with math.

Always remember you're unique--just like everybody else.

Kaye  
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 15:29:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Restoration/bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:46:48 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.114648.0>
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-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Dani Greer, =

To:     Glenna Rand, INTERNET:gjr@bungi.com
        =

Date:   2/4/99  1:13 PM

RE:     Restoration/bumper stickers

How about this one:

Old glaziers never die... they just get re-leaded.

Good luck with your project, Glenna... what a nice thing to do for your
neighbors.

You know, somebody really ought to think about printing bumper stickers. =

And, how about some stained glass mousepads and screen saver programs? =

There's an adjunct business-in-the-making here for some enthusiastic
entrepeneur!

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 15:31:32 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <glass@intrastar.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 13:59:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.55946.0>
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How about:

GLASS IS CLASS

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 16:25:28 -0600
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    Please put me on the bungi list.
                                         Thanks,,,,,,,,,,

                                                               Jaknwolfy

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 15:53:04 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Kay Frith Allen <fullspec@sunset.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Circle cutter
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 17:30:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.123012.0>
References: <<3.0.1.32.19990204120824.006cc1e8@pop3.sunset.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Kay Frith Allen wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> I lost the instructions to my Fletcher small circle cutter and now I need
> to cut some 2 inch circles out of mirror.  Will someone please tell me how
> to use it?  Thanks a bunch.
> Kay
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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basically you first need to find the center of the cutter. i did it by
eye, and made a mark on the board. then find your radius, and score..
that was for the lens cutter anyway. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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X-Path: yahoo.com!barbaraelmore
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: solder:Canfield vs Hirsh?
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 15:01:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.7125.0>
Precedence: bulk


Need opinions on solder.  Have tried lots of bad
brands lately, but really like Canfield.  Have
heard that Hirsh is equally as good. 

Tired of wasting my time and money on brands that aren't melting
clean, have lots of fumes, lumpy
beads, etc. 

Thanks!



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 16:35:26 1999
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!swetinusa
From: Jane Swetman <swetinusa@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: 16" Mold for Lamp
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 16:44:34 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.104434.0>
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone tried making their own mold? Glass Patterns Quarterly has a
lamp in an old ('94) issue that I want to make, and call for a 16"
Odyssey shade (I guess a generic one). Odyssey don't make a 16" shade
without a pattern, so I thought I'd try my hand at making one.

I wondered if anyone has had any success with making their own.

Also, I've also heard that there used to be a company in the Chicago
that rented the Odyssey molds but they've gone out of business
(Aurora?). Does anyone know of a place where they can be rented? 



Jane in S.W. Suburbs/Chicago''
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 17:36:03 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!bdudack
From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: <Yegnim@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:09:45 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.12945.0>
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Yes your probably right and who needs all that attention anyway
-----Original Message-----
From: Yegnim@aol.com <Yegnim@aol.com>
To: bdudack@mediaone.net <bdudack@mediaone.net>; glass@bungi.com
<glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass


>Cathi,
>My favorite is scoring also.  However, unless you wish to attract men who
are
>just interested in having sex with you, I think that scoring (by itself)
would
>not express your true interest.  "I'd rather be scoring (glass)" or "I'd
>rather be scoring glass" would be much safer.  Unless you want to hear
honking
>and wonder what the commotion is about when you pass trucks and cars on the
>highway!!!  <BG>
>Lenore
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 17:42:53 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!bdudack
From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: "Glenna Rand" <gjr@bungi.com>, <PDRUSS@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:14:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.121433.0>
Precedence: bulk

that's cute to
-----Original Message-----
From: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
To: PDRUSS@aol.com <PDRUSS@aol.com>; glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass


>[In the message entitled "Re: glass racks/transporting glass" on Feb  3,
19:09, PDRUSS@aol.com writes:]
>
>>
>> We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
>>
>> "I'd rather be......"
>>
>> what?
>>
>> "I'd rather be glassing"  ?
>> "I'd rether be staining"  ?
>> "I'd rather be leading"  ?
>> "I'd rather be slumping"  ?
>
>Glassers know the "score"
>
>
>--
>Glenna Rand
>gjr@bungi.com
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:01:07 1999
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From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: "Family Account" <shad@mail2.nai.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: rather be scoring
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:15:59 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.121559.0>
Precedence: bulk

good one
-----Original Message-----
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 12:09 PM
Subject: rather be scoring


>Not "clear" enough unless you are displaying glass.
>
>Glass workers would rather be scoring
>
>Old stained glass workers never die, they just keep on scoring
>
>(Is silly season here yet?)
>
>Dorothy
>
>
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:01:26 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:27:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.15273.0>
Precedence: bulk

Here's another one:

Real glass artists get the lead out.

Compliments of my husband... you think he's trying to tell me something??=
 =

Now, keep in mind, he doesn't use computers; I have a brand new one.  Wha=
t
does that tell you?

Best regards ;-)  =


Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & STudios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:15:41 1999
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From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 18:19:39 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.121939.0>
Precedence: bulk

I think this one wins
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; glass@intrastar.net <glass@intrastar.net>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: bumper stickers


>How about:
>
>GLASS IS CLASS
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
>
>----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:19:11 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: solder:Canfield vs Hirsh?
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 19:25:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.14258.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.7125.0>>
Precedence: bulk

barbara elmore wrote:
> 
> Need opinions on solder.  Have tried lots of bad
> brands lately, but really like Canfield.  Have
> heard that Hirsh is equally as good.
> 
> Tired of wasting my time and money on brands that aren't melting
> clean, have lots of fumes, lumpy
> beads, etc.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


solder i use and like are canfield, willard, and i think there is one
more.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:21:52 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:26:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.152650.0>
Precedence: bulk

How about this one:

Glass Lass with Class

Inspired by Bob's last post.

Best ;-)

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 18:31:40 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!dro
From: Daniel <dro@teleport.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 02:03:30 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.2330.0>
References: <<199902041727.LAA21129@relay.acns.nwu.edu>>
Precedence: bulk

Oh.......you people are fantastic....

..........if we are that creative with words...it's no wonder...

the contest entries are special...:)

Somebody remind me to vote...sigh...

......the PAIN.....oh the pain....

I Got Linux half installed on my laptop...and I'm revamping my
linux/cum winnt/ cum win98.......box....I'm up to my ears in email..
I HAVE to get a project done before Saturday...

I've got to bake bread tomorrow....and the cat needs a rabies shot...

How do you people with kids do it??

A Chinese pug and siamese is too much for me...



=============================================================


I can't say which bumper sticker I like the best...

but THESE are the creme' de la creme'

I think EVERYONE who entered the contest should be given their choice
of bumper stickers....or...if you want...

send me a blank shirt...and I'll print you up a nice shirt on my
trusty bubble jet printer with the slogan of your choice....and the 
iron on jobbies....ahhhhhhhhh...

the mind boggles...umm......bangles...er...bugles...(how do you spell 
bugle??)...


Later...


======================================================



"Honk if you love stained glass"

"Visualize....stained glass"

"My windows can beat your windows"    <<<<<this one is classic....

Glass Artists Do It in the SUNSHINE!

real artists are a pane in the glass!

glass workers score more!

I'd rather be scoring than breaking up.<<<<<<<<<<<<<a very nice inside
joke.

Old glaziers never die... they just get re-leaded.

(how about old glaziers never die...they just get rehung...:)..ahem...)





Daniel in Oregon
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 19:03:02 1999
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From: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Grinder and Bits
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 20:11:54 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.11154.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi everyone :-)

I am working on my 1st project (without an instructor) and have a couple of
questions.  The project is a suncatcher--bird/flowers --and I want to solder
it to a brass ring (6 inches)  How do I do that?  Do I wrap copper around the
ring and tin it or will the solder stick to the brass?

How long does a grinder bit last?

Is it OK to leave the water and coolant in the grinder for several days or do
I have to clean it out every day?  The second day I went into the shop there
was a film covering the  top of the water.  Was that the coolant?

Thanks for the help in advance 

Shirley G
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 19:40:19 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Jane Swetman <swetinusa@worldnet.att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: 16" Mold for Lamp
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 21:40:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.164041.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.104434.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Jane Swetman wrote:
> 
> Has anyone tried making their own mold? Glass Patterns Quarterly has a
> lamp in an old ('94) issue that I want to make, and call for a 16"
> Odyssey shade (I guess a generic one). Odyssey don't make a 16" shade
> without a pattern, so I thought I'd try my hand at making one.
> 
> I wondered if anyone has had any success with making their own.
> 
> Also, I've also heard that there used to be a company in the Chicago
> that rented the Odyssey molds but they've gone out of business
> (Aurora?). Does anyone know of a place where they can be rented?
> 
> Jane in S.W. Suburbs/Chicago''
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the pattern they used would be for that particular mold. making your own
may not work with that pattern.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 20:07:47 1999
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To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 21:41:04 -0500
Message-ID: <199902050241.VAA00799@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

2/4/99 8:27 PM Dani Greer GreerStudios@compuserve.com

>Here's another one:
>
>Real glass artists get the lead out.

Or how about - Real glass artists lead their heart out???

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 21:03:28 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!dro
From: Daniel <dro@teleport.com>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 04:20:54 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.42054.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.152650.0>>
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Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> How about this one:
> 
> Glass Lass with Class
> 
> Inspired by Bob's last post.
> 
> Best ;-)
> 
> Dani
===========================================================


Yep...that made me stop and thunk fer a minute...

And I've got something working with....

		lead free gas....	

			nolead free glass...
				
				hmmmmmmmmmm...ouch I tickled myself...

Daniel in Oregon


-- 
Philosophy:  A route of many roads leading from nowhere to nothing.
-- Ambrose Bierce
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 21:41:19 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mosfunland
From: Mosfunland@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG slogans.....
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:38:03 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.4383.0>
Precedence: bulk

heres a couple....you can pick your own category:

"snaps under pressure"
"on the cutting edge"
"grinds with the best of 'em"
"%$&#, foiled again!"


and my personal favorite:
drumroll please:
"Leaded be"    (John Lennon would approve....)

Maureen
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 22:05:13 1999
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From: "SandyJoh" <SandyJoh@ix.netcom.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: bumper stickers
Date: Thu, 4 Feb 1999 23:26:58 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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I think ya'll been sniffin' too much solder lately! (course, that's a =
pre-req for joining this group, isn't it?!)

OK - I'm enjoying the really bad humor you're coming up with ;-0

I think we all need to get a life!


------=_NextPart_000_019F_01BE5095.DBD87DA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think ya'll been sniffin' too much =
solder=20
lately! (course, that's a pre-req for joining this group, isn't=20
it?!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>OK - I'm enjoying the really bad =
humor you're=20
coming up with ;-0</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think we all need to get a =
life!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 22:35:49 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Mosfunland@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Thu, 04 Feb 1999 23:57:09 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.17579.0>
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Mosfunland@aol.com wrote:
> 
> heres a couple....you can pick your own category:
> 
> "snaps under pressure"
> "on the cutting edge"
> "grinds with the best of 'em"
> "%$&#, foiled again!"
> 
> and my personal favorite:
> drumroll please:
> "Leaded be"    (John Lennon would approve....)
> 
> Maureen


YEA Maureen!!!!  Good ones.

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 23:07:40 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: fullspec@sunset.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Circle cutter
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:27:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.202714.0>
Precedence: bulk

Kay,

If you look closely at the side of the rod that holds the cutter turret,
(the rod that the set screw locks onto) you'll see that it has
measurements marked on it.  Just set the size you want so that it lines
up with the flat side of the setscrew housing and lock the turret in
place.  Test your size setting by putting a sheet of stiff paper into the
cutter, press down on the handle and crank the handle around to score the
paper.  Measure to see if this is the correct size.  If it is not, adjust
it a bit and try again.

Now put a dab of oil on the cutting turret to lubricate it and place your
glass onto the cutting stage.  Push the turret handle down lightly to see
that you have lined the cutter up well to give a bit more than 1/4" of
scrap all the way around your circle.  In fact it is easiest if you cut
the glass into squares first.  For a 2" circle cut 2 1/2" or slightly
larger squares.  After you are sure that the glass is in the right place
for scoring, push the turret handle down firmly and crank it around in
one complete circle applying firm even pressure but not extreme pressure.
 Do not go around more than once.

Remove the scored glass from the stage and use your pliers to "open" the
score line all the way around.  Make relief scores and break the circle
out.  For more detail on the breaking out and relief lines find the
circle cutting tutorial on my web site at www.dodgestudio.com


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com



On Thu, 04 Feb 1999 12:08:24 -0800 Kay Frith Allen <fullspec@sunset.net>
writes:
>Hi,
>I lost the instructions to my Fletcher small circle cutter and now I 
>need
>to cut some 2 inch circles out of mirror.  Will someone please tell me 
>how
>to use it?  Thanks a bunch.
>Kay
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 23:23:52 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Grinder and Bits
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:17:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.201738.0>
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>Hi everyone :-)
>
>I am working on my 1st project (without an instructor) and have a 
>couple of
>questions.  The project is a suncatcher--bird/flowers --and I want to 
>solder
>it to a brass ring (6 inches)  How do I do that?  Do I wrap copper 
>around the
>ring and tin it or will the solder stick to the brass?

Yes, Solder will just stick to the brass.  If the brass is very thick and
your iron is under powered you may have to heat the brass quite a while
to get the solder to run, but otherwise there should be no complications.


>
>How long does a grinder bit last?


This one depends a whole lot on how much you grind AND ON WHAT BRAND
YOU'RE USING.  A Glastar bit lasts at least six months to a year here in
the studio and they are used by the students too.  Another factor is how
patient you are.  Grinder bits rarely die a catastrophic death.  
They just work slower and slower until your patience wears out.  Don't
forget that you can slide the head up or down to expose new grinding
surfaces.


>Is it OK to leave the water and coolant in the grinder for several 
>days or do
>I have to clean it out every day?  The second day I went into the shop 
>there
>was a film covering the  top of the water.  Was that the coolant?


The film is more likely oils from your hands and cutting oil residue,
unknown substances from the surface of the glass, etc.  Some people clean
their grinders daily.  We clean ours when the glass dust fills it to the
point that we can't put water in anymore.  This is not however the best
way to prolong your head life and may increase your chances of being
"attacked" by mold spores or other noxious buggies.


>
>Thanks for the help in advance 
>
>Shirley G
>----
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>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 23:31:49 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: BOBDU@prodigy.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 01:37:14 EST
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In a message dated 2/4/99 3:43:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, BOBDU@prodigy.net
writes:

<< GLASS IS CLASS >>

I like it.
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From owner-glass Thu Feb  4 23:45:46 1999
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From: leestat7 <leestat7@home.com>
To: Mosfunland@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 01:35:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.203536.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.4383.0>>
Organization: @Home Network
Precedence: bulk

For the hot glass bunch-

Torched. 

Mosfunland@aol.com wrote:
> 
> heres a couple....you can pick your own category:
> 
> "snaps under pressure"
> "on the cutting edge"
> "grinds with the best of 'em"
> "%$&#, foiled again!"
> 
> and my personal favorite:
> drumroll please:
> "Leaded be"    (John Lennon would approve....)
> 
> Maureen
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 01:02:35 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Jane Swetman" <swetinusa@worldnet.att.net>, "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: 16" Mold for Lamp
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:29:43 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.72943.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello Jane

You're brave! Should be interesting!

I know someone who said he would turn wooden molds for me but I haven't
taken him up on it. LCT used wood.

The first table lamp I made I used the glass bowl from the front of an old
washing machine - working inside with found beach glass. Not fun with
different thicknesses, curves and it kept skidding around! I did it inside
to keep the external surface level. Many lessons there. A precious lamp
now - it lives on my wifes bedside table. We found the glass together
walking on lots of beaches.

I have made shades using Odessy molds and made the pattern up as I went
along. I just ignored the existing incised markings. You need to be careful
that you don't evolve differences as you progress around otherwise it will
show when you meet up. So I found that it was best to start at the top and
work evenly down rather than just around.

Good luck and I'd love to know how you make out!


BtB




>Has anyone tried making their own mold? Glass Patterns Quarterly has a
>lamp in an old ('94) issue that I want to make, and call for a 16"
>Odyssey shade (I guess a generic one). Odyssey don't make a 16" shade
>without a pattern, so I thought I'd try my hand at making one.
>
>I wondered if anyone has had any success with making their own.
>
>Also, I've also heard that there used to be a company in the Chicago
>that rented the Odyssey molds but they've gone out of business
>(Aurora?). Does anyone know of a place where they can be rented?
>
>
>
>Jane in S.W. Suburbs/Chicago''





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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 01:22:40 1999
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X-Path: tm.net.my!shakeel
From: "Shakeel Abedi" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Bumper Sticker...
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:02:59 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.18259.0>
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>How about....Get Glassed!

or ....

Glassified

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 01:32:29 1999
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From: "Shakeel Abedi" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Bumper Sticker
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:10:30 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.181030.0>
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>Hows about...You bet your sweet glass...

or ......
A Glass of It's Own

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 02:34:18 1999
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X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "Dale Bentley" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 03:48:55 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb4.214855.0>
Precedence: bulk

Bumpersnickers!  I love it.

Okay it's late... and I should be in bed, but I guess the need for public
humiliation is even stronger.... I am sure I will regret this tomorrow!
But, here goes..... How about?

"Get your Glass in Gear!"

"Lead, Foil, or get out of the way!"

"My other car is a Kiln"

"Don't laugh, I spend my $$$ on Glass."

"Aw flux, foiled again!"

"To bead, or not to bead"  (Shakespeare)

"Keep your glass to the grindstone"

"Oh, Frit...blasted again!"

"Use Came, or Foil, Then Solder"  (Caesar said it best! I came, I saw.. well
you know)

"Working my Glass Off!"  (has a double meaning)

"You have got to be fidding?"  (Now I am killing myself!!!  LOL)

"Grozing in the Glass"  song - (Grazing in the grass)

"Got Glass?"  (and we could all have little glass moustaches)

"Super cooled liquid manipulator"  (okay, a little on the egghead side)

"Heart of Glass"  (Blondie's back you know?)




Gee, I wonder if anyone is collecting all these moments of shear genius!


Oh, good.... now I have that out of my system!

Dale Bentley




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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 04:00:52 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'SandyJoh'" <SandyJoh@ix.netcom.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: NG HTLM jibberish
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 06:16:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.11644.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sandy,

Your messages are getting to me in Htlm format. Anyone else recieving them 
this way? You can go to your preferences and choose to send them as 
something other that htlm and all the jibberish won't dome across.

Thanks,

Linda

-----Original Message-----
From:	SandyJoh [SMTP:SandyJoh@ix.netcom.com]
Sent:	Friday, February 05, 1999 12:27 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	bumper stickers

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_019F_01BE5095.DBD87DA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I think ya'll been sniffin' too much solder lately! (course, that's a =
pre-req for joining this group, isn't it?!)

OK - I'm enjoying the really bad humor you're coming up with ;-0

I think we all need to get a life!


------=_NextPart_000_019F_01BE5095.DBD87DA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think ya'll been sniffin' too much =
solder=20
lately! (course, that's a pre-req for joining this group, isn't=20
it?!)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>OK - I'm enjoying the really bad =
humor you're=20
coming up with ;-0</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I think we all need to get a =
life!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_019F_01BE5095.DBD87DA0--

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 04:32:24 1999
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From: Kathy <khupp@citynet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Weller address
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 07:06:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.2630.0>
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Does anybody have an e-mail, or snail mail address for Weller? I was
bragging on my iron a while back and broke it yesterday, getting the tip
out. I'd like to send it in for repair. I must have broken the heat
connections or something. Regardless, the thing won't heat. So far, I
can't find them on the Web, just places selling them.

Thanks!!

Kathy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 05:30:53 1999
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From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG HTLM jibberish
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:57:16 -0500 (EST)
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On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Linda Campbell wrote:


> 
> Your messages are getting to me in Htlm format. Anyone else recieving them 
> this way? You can go to your preferences and choose to send them as 
> something other that htlm and all the jibberish won't dome across.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Linda
> 

Linda is right! In memory of Bob the Dinosaur, who beat on this drum
loudly and often, let us all post in PLAIN TEXT!

thx
m


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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 05:41:45 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Kathy'" <khupp@citynet.net>, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Weller address
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:03:19 -0500
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Weller is Cooper Weller Tools:

Cooper Hand Tools, Div. of CooperIndustries
        3535 Glenwood Ave.
        Raleigh, NC 27612 USA
        Tel: 919-781-7200
        Product Description:
        Tools, Torches, Chains, Soldering Iron Stands, Chain Assemblies.

I sent in a 100W a year or tow ago and they told me they don't repair them 
(or at least what ever it was wrong with mine- I think is was one of those 
little electronic gismos). They did give me a really good deal on a new 
one. I forget, I think I paid $54 for a $79 iron. Turns out they sent me 
two and being the honest person that I am, I offered to pay for the second 
or they could have someone pick it up. They let me have it for the same 
price as the first. I was pleased with their customer support even tho they 
wouldn't repair the iron.

Linda Campbell

Kathy said

 Does anybody have an e-mail, or snail mail address for Weller? I was
bragging on my iron a while back and broke it yesterday, getting the tip
out. I'd like to send it in for repair. I must have broken the heat
connections or something. Regardless, the thing won't heat. So far, I
can't find them on the Web, just places selling them.

Thanks!!

Kathy


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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 05:51:59 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: yeah for J Lennon
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:04:16 -0500
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                    I like....Leaded be!    Get the lead out!      To score
or not to score!         All are really worth a chuckle.... and a round of
applause and mainly, I think we all need a "Break". We gotta get some sleep
or something......

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 06:00:33 1999
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Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:18:40 -0500
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2/4/99 11:38 PM Mosfunland@aol.com Mosfunland@aol.com

>
>and my personal favorite:
>drumroll please:
>"Leaded be"    (John Lennon would approve....)
>
>Maureen

I really like your personal fav, Maureen!
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 06:15:50 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Weller address
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:23:41 EST
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       WELLER SNAIL MAIL ADDRESS:
                      Weller Division of Cooper Industries
                           815 State Road
                         Cheraw, S.C.   29520
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 06:30:27 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Kathy'" <khupp@citynet.net>, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Weller address PS
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:28:15 -0500
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PS.

http://www.coopertools.com/index.html

 For the Tim the Toolman folks out there, the site has lots on line art 
clipart of tools. Maybe you'd like to incorporate some into your stained 
glass panel or perhaps you needed a pic of horseshoe nails for your on line 
catalog. This place has got the pics in pdf format.

Linda
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 06:32:51 1999
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Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 08:31:34 EST
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In a message dated 2/4/99 1:27:20 PM, kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU wrote:

>"Honk if you love stained glass"
>
>"If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
>
>"Visualize....stained glass"
>
>"My windows can beat your windows"

Ever since my first stint working for Christie, when I got attacked by some
Very Mean Nasty Splintery Red Cathedral, I keep threatening to have some T-
shirts made up saying (in red letters, of course!):

	GIVE BLOOD
	become a stained-glass artist


Sparks, type B+
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 07:02:42 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Grinder and Bits
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:31:36 -0500
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SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone :-)
> 
> I am working on my 1st project (without an instructor) and have a couple of
> questions.  The project is a suncatcher--bird/flowers --and I want to solder
> it to a brass ring (6 inches)  How do I do that?  Do I wrap copper around the
> ring and tin it or will the solder stick to the brass?
> 
> How long does a grinder bit last?
> 
> Is it OK to leave the water and coolant in the grinder for several days or do
> I have to clean it out every day?  The second day I went into the shop there
> was a film covering the  top of the water.  Was that the coolant?
> 
> Thanks for the help in advance
> 
> Shirley G
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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the solder will alaways stick to other solder, copper, and brass. but
steel wool the brass first.

a grinder bit should last for a pretty long time, as long as you don't
abuse it. keep water in it (enough so that when you turn it on some
water swishes out. (out as in above the surface around th bit
, and not overflowing from the grinder). i use my bit's alot, and it
still takes about a year of constant use for me to want to replace the
bit. 

the water can be left in, forever. except maybe for the twin spin
grinder, the disc tends to rust. the scum is most likely coolant, glass
dust, and plain dust. nothing to worry about. every so often you should
clean the grinder though.

---Mike Savad
 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 07:21:01 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:30:22 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.143022.0>
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Hi all!

I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which method
to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over the
glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer? 

What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make my
first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!

Thanks!
Laura P

PS - Here's my bumpersticker input:   "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 07:30:44 1999
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X-Path: hotmail.com!glassinmd
From: "Jeanne K" <glassinmd@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Bevel Max
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 06:28:13 PST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.142813.0>
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone tried the bevel max for the repair of straight line bevels.  
I have about 10 to re-bevel one side on and was wondering if this was 
worth the money (does it work or not)


______________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 07:46:22 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Kathy <khupp@citynet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller address
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:38:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.43841.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.2630.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Kathy wrote:
> 
> Does anybody have an e-mail, or snail mail address for Weller? I was
> bragging on my iron a while back and broke it yesterday, getting the tip
> out. I'd like to send it in for repair. I must have broken the heat
> connections or something. Regardless, the thing won't heat. So far, I
> can't find them on the Web, just places selling them.
> 
> Thanks!!
> 
> Kathy
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


if i'm not mistaken i think cooper tools owns weller and you have to
contact them. i think it's just cooperstools.com or coopers-tools.com or
something like that.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 08:03:34 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: questions from Shirley G
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:25:12 -0500
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Message text written by Shirley G:
>The project is a suncatcher--bird/flowers --and I want to solder
it to a brass ring (6 inches)  How do I do that?  Do I wrap copper around=

the
ring and tin it or will the solder stick to the brass?>

You can solder directly to the brass ring.  But you will need to
heat up the brass ring first, as it is a larger heat sink than your
copper-foil suncatcher's solder lines.  So place your soldering
iron on the brass ring at the point where you want the suncatcher
attached, and crank it up to high.  Make sure to flux the point on
the brass ring.  When the solder flows onto the ring, then solder
the suncatcher to it.

<How long does a grinder bit last?>

Depends on the manufacturer of the bit, and how much you use
it.  The only way to tell is when you notice a significant increase
in the time it takes you to grind, then it's time to change bits.

<Is it OK to leave the water and coolant in the grinder for several days =
or
do
I have to clean it out every day?  The second day I went into the shop
there
was a film covering the  top of the water.  Was that the coolant?<

I don't use coolant, so I can't answer the last question.  But you
can leave water in the grinder's well for several days.  However,
I clean mine out after each project.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 08:30:47 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: HiimLaura@aol.com, glass
Subject: Re: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 07:45:16 PST
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Precedence: bulk

[In the message entitled "First Stepping Stone need advice" on Feb  5,  9:30, HiimLaura@aol.com writes:]

> I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which method
> to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over the
> glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
> applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer? 
> 
> What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
> greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make my
> first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
> begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!
> 

I have made serval stepping stones using diamondcrete and a mold
that had glass laid in it.  I have had quite good results.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 08:51:33 1999
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From: SKDJ@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: marking glass
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 10:49:19 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.154919.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi.  I just purchased a glass saw.  I have found out that marking with a
permanent Sharpee doesn't work, the water washes it off of the glass.  Any
suggestions?  Thanks.  Sherry
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 09:01:05 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 09:56:41 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.35641.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.143022.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Laura.

I'm not an expert, but I make really pretty stones.

I learned the concrete part from a decorative concrete guy.

I use white portland cement, *very* fine light clean sand, and
industrial blast sand.  White portland cost about $14 a bag as opposed
to $5 for gray...but the difference in finished product is well worth
the extra money.

I buy my sand from my decorative concrete guy.  The sand I find at home
depot, Lowes etc.... is nasty in comparison.  Makes a big difference in
the stone.

I use a pretty wet mix, opposite of what most sg people will tell you...
my finished stones look more like marble than concrete though...so it
depends on the look you want.

I also add stealth fiber to my concrete, as recommended by my concrete
guy. I use a professional mold release called 880, dont know the
manufacturer, but I am sure with a few phone calls you could find
some...it is wonderful stuff and it also does a great job cleaning and 
*seasoning your molds. (kind of like a cast iron skillet)

I would be happy to show you some pics of my stones.  Also, if you are
interested, more detailed directions of how I do it.

Tulsa Suzanne
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X-Path: detroit.freenet.org!ae479
From: ae479@detroit.freenet.org (Sue Becker)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: prairie lamps
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 11:57:47 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199902051657.LAA10030@detroit.freenet.org>
Precedence: bulk



Appreciate the input on vase caps and spiders.  Using the spider was
an idea one of the group came up with and thought I would run it 
by you. We plan to reinforce the top and bottom with wire.

Guess we will stick to vase caps for these small lamps. I personally
prefer the spiders for larger hanging lamps and appreciate the tip
re lining up the cap and spider with a dowel.

Thanks to all.
  


Reply-To: ae479@detroit.freenet.org
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X-Path: ior.com!glshorse
From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: Dale Bentley <bankers@ictc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:40:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.04034.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.214855.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
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from my non glass working husband:

"stained glass, the first cut is the deepest"
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: SKDJ@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: marking glass
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 11:15:25 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.51525.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.154919.0>>
Precedence: bulk

SKDJ@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I just purchased a glass saw.  I have found out that marking with a
> permanent Sharpee doesn't work, the water washes it off of the glass.  Any
> suggestions?  Thanks.  Sherry

I just rub a very small amount of vaseline over my lines.
Same on the grinder.  Although, I dont need to with iridized glass or
some reason.

I mark on darker glass, and glasses with alot happening in them like
youghiogheny with a white pen called PM-41 Brite-Mark White, made by
Mark-Tex Corp. in Englewood, NJ.  It makes a much more distinct line,
much easier to see.  AND, it doesnt wash off easily.  Comes off easy
when I was scrub it off with a green scrubby, but you dont have to scrub
hard.
I think my eyes are aging, and gonna need some glasses soon for the
first time in my life!

BTW, did you know being 40 suddenly explains everything to a Dr?
Starting me drive me crazy! ;o)
They say, "how old are you again?"  I say 40...they say.. "AAAAhhhhh
that explains it!"

Tulsa Suzanne
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 08:56:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.05645.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.55946.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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How about Foiled again!!
Shirley B
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X-Path: ucdavis.edu!krmcdonald
From: "Kathe R. Mc Donald" <krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu>
To: "'SKDJ@aol.com'" <SKDJ@aol.com>, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: marking glass
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:24:46 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.32446.0>
Organization: SOM - Office of Curricular Support
Precedence: bulk

Those gold marking pens work great--"Pilot Gold Marker".

-----Original Message-----
From:	SKDJ@aol.com [SMTP:SKDJ@aol.com]
Sent:	Friday, February 05, 1999 9:49 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	marking glass

Hi.  I just purchased a glass saw.  I have found out that marking with a
permanent Sharpee doesn't work, the water washes it off of the glass.  Any
suggestions?  Thanks.  Sherry
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:04:21 1999
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Brian Dudack <bdudack@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 09:37:34 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.13734.0>
References: <<1999Feb3.1532.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Cathie:  You get my vote!  Peggy




On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Brian Dudack wrote:

> How about
> 
> I'd rather be scoring
> 
> Cathie
> -----Original Message-----
> From: PDRUSS@aol.com <PDRUSS@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Wednesday, February 03, 1999 7:43 PM
> Subject: Re: glass racks/transporting glass
> 
> 
> >In a message dated 2/2/99 3:29:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> >seaspray@mail.island.net writes:
> >
> ><< .waiting hours in a
> > parking lot with bored individuals in a ferry lineup could lead to
> > orders...never thought about that...but what about possible vandalism
> during
> > the 2 hour ferry ride?  >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >We need bumper stickers. But what should they say?
> >
> >"I'd rather be......"
> >
> >what?
> >
> >
> >"I'd rather be glassing"  ?
> >"I'd rether be staining"  ?
> >"I'd rather be leading"  ?
> >"I'd rather be slumping"  ?
> >
> >any ideas?
> >
> >
> >Dianne
> >Jacksonville, FL
> >
> >----
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> >
> 
> ----
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> 

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:05:21 1999
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X-Path: home.com!leestat7
From: leestat7 <leestat7@home.com>
To: SKDJ@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: marking glass
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 13:14:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.81432.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.154919.0>>
Organization: @Home Network
Precedence: bulk

Chap stick!!  Or any non-scented lipbalm. Draw your lines, then go over
the lines with the full width chapstick.  The lines will not 'float' off
in the saw, and then it washes off easy with dishwashing liquid. 
Cheaper than the commercial stuff for this, can't remember what its
called.

Lee Boe 

SKDJ@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I just purchased a glass saw.  I have found out that marking with a
> permanent Sharpee doesn't work, the water washes it off of the glass.  Any
> suggestions?  Thanks.  Sherry
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:07:50 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 12:27:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.72723.0>
Precedence: bulk

Our very own Daniel German (sp?) has a great new site up called "nGlass"
and there is an article from Pamela on doing stepping stones using the
mosaic method.  It's very informative and will give you the steps and a
materials list.  Go to the following page to check it out and scroll down
to "Stained Glass Stepping Stones".

http://aries27.uwaterloo.ca/nglass/index.html

Have fun!

Diane Manchester
Tiffany Styled Originals
Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:28:27 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:03:17 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.6317.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.04034.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> from my non glass working husband:
> 
> "stained glass, the first cut is the deepest"
> ----

Ain't that the truth...then we *try* to be more careful! ;o)

Sounds like he has helped stop the bleeding!

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:30:25 1999
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X-Path: pop3.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 18:23:12 +0000
Message-ID: <199902051834.SAA02085@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk

How about spomething from the Good Book.....?

..... and leaded be Light.
And God saw of was good.
........

Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK


Maureen wrote:
and my personal favorite:
drumroll please:
"Leaded be"    (John Lennon would approve....)

----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:37:03 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re:  questions from Shirley G
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:17:06 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.19176.0>
Precedence: bulk


A coupla daze ago, Shirley G's enquiring mind wanted to know:

>Is it OK to leave the water and coolant in the grinder for several days 
>or do I have to clean it out every day?

You can leave the water in the grinder, but several of our fellow bungians can
tell you that it's a very good idea to remove the grinder bit after every use,
so it doesn't get stuck on the shaft due to corrosion.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 13:37:36 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re:  solder:Canfield vs Hirsh?
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:17:11 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.191711.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/4/99 8:13:51 PM, barbaraelmore@yahoo.com wrote:

>Need opinions on solder.  Have tried lots of bad
>brands lately, but really like Canfield.  Have
>heard that Hirsh is equally as good. 

Never used Hirsh, but have used Canfield, it works fine. Mostly I use Fry.
Haven't had any problems with it.


Sparks
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Dale Bentley" <bankers@ictc.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:32:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.93237.0>
Precedence: bulk

Tooooo good, Dale!!  We oughta keep you up late more often!
I can see Patrick already in a glass moustache to match his glass
tutu!  And thanks to Shakeel, I'm going to call my student hand-outs
"Glassifed Information"!  They'll love it.  I, too, hope someone is keepi=
ng
track of all these gems.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com" <Witchdoc3@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 14:32:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.93243.0>
Precedence: bulk

Another good one, Sparks!  Here's another
one from Mike:

Stained Glass Artists - a cut above the rest.

And who said we needed a "break"... that really "cracked"
me up!

I hope somebody's keeping track of these bumpersnickers....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 14:07:29 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!SKDJ
From: SKDJ@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Thanks
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 15:47:41 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.204741.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thank you all who answered my question about my lines washing off with the
glass saw.  I think the idea of rubbing chapstick over the line before cutting
is the best.  I really enjoy being on this list.  I have learned a lot just in
the short time I have been on it.    Sherry
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 14:30:54 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Stepping stone  info 
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 14:54:31 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.85431.0>
Precedence: bulk

Wow...there is **alot** of interest in stepping stones.
You guys really need to send in bios! ;o)
There's a plug for ya Patrick!!  I have seen lots of names I have never
seen before.

I am working on typing up some information offline.  When I can get it
finished I will post it on bungi instead of individual emails.  Then if
you want to email me privately with any questions, fine by me.

Sorry for not emailing you each individually right now, but time to pick
up my daughter from school, and my 2 yr old is building a castle
currently with my canned goods.  Hope those poor toes survive!

Oh..we are also going to the Dollar store! My son says he needs more
dollars! :o)  I told him meeeeeee too!

Hopefully I can post it before tonight.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 14:38:59 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!barbaraelmore
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: demo Taurus II Saw?
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:01:18 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.5118.0>
Precedence: bulk


Live in Western North Carolina, and would like
to demo the Taurus II saw before I buy.  Does anyone
know of any dealers in my area (even southern VA,
northern SC, etc) that sell?

Can't find Gemini Saw Co listing on web, or would
call them and find out dealers.

Thanks!



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 14:44:55 1999
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Kay Frith Allen <fullspec@sunset.net>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Circle cutter
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:04:02 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.542.0>
References: <<3.0.1.32.19990204120824.006cc1e8@pop3.sunset.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Kay:  Your circle cutter should have a gauge showing the size of the
circle...set your gauge to the desired diameter and check it using clear
glass.  Make your adjustments accordingly.  Peggy

On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Kay Frith Allen wrote:

> Hi,
> I lost the instructions to my Fletcher small circle cutter and now I need
> to cut some 2 inch circles out of mirror.  Will someone please tell me how
> to use it?  Thanks a bunch.
> Kay
> ----
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> 

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 14:47:10 1999
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@intrastar.net
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 13:04:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.5451.0>
References: <<001401be5089$ae9b2f60$7b669cd1@default>>
Precedence: bulk

I change my vote to this.  Peggy

On Thu, 4 Feb 1999, Bob E Duchesneau wrote:

> How about:
> 
> GLASS IS CLASS
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
> 
> 

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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Lettering
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 16:43:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.114311.0>
Precedence: bulk

Had to come up with lettering for a project....I did up the lettering in
Photoshop, saved as bitmap, used as background to make a pattern in
Glass Eye, used Glass Eye to distort it slightly...make taller.  It was
quick.  Of course, I have to finish the rest of the details, now.

I suppose you could do some interesting distortions in Photoshop before
saving, too....

Dorothy







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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 15:31:20 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Jeanne K <glassinmd@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bevel Max
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:22:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.12221.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.142813.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Jeanne K wrote:
> 
> Has anyone tried the bevel max for the repair of straight line bevels.
> I have about 10 to re-bevel one side on and was wondering if this was
> worth the money (does it work or not)
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ----
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the wheel is only about 8" wide, so only small bevels can be made. i
have it. the instructions stunk, my glass is badly scratched. the snad
paper disks explode is you get the slightext nick on them (which is way
to easy). and the felt tends to burn when you polish it. the new conical
disks look like there a better quality (it's for inside curves). i'm
kind of sorry i got mine...

---Mike Savad

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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 15:31:43 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Circle cutter
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:18:14 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.221814.0>
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Kay,
I have an instruction sheet from the company who makes the circle cutter.  If
you want, I could copy it and snail mail it to you.  If interested, send your
snail mail address.    Lenore
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 15:47:32 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: SKDJ@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: marking glass
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:23:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.12236.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.154919.0>>
Precedence: bulk

SKDJ@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi.  I just purchased a glass saw.  I have found out that marking with a
> permanent Sharpee doesn't work, the water washes it off of the glass.  Any
> suggestions?  Thanks.  Sherry
> ----
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paint marker. i think pilot gold works the best, if i'm not mistaken.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 15:56:14 1999
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From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:21:09 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.22219.0>
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How about:

Curses, Foiled again. 


Dianne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:03:32 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "Suzanne" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Stepping stone  info 
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:48:52 -0500
Message-ID: <199902052249.RAA05489@smtp.america.net>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne,

You are a good doobie.  I know I have gotten some good pointers and the
only, repeat only reason I even gave stepping stones a try was the talk
about it here on this page.  And you letting me bug the heck out of you with
exact measurements.  I think I have it down now.  BTW, I am sifting both my
very fine sand, and the Portland cement, just to catch anything that might
ruin my otherwise perfect pour.  he he he!!  I am waiting for Santa to make
either a real early or a little late delivery of a Taurus II so I can do
some stones with lettering on them.

I had a neighbor ask, are you going to put all these (there are 4 in a
flower bed as you walk up to the front door you see them.) in your back
yard?  I said well no, really I am going to use them as samples to SELL
stones.   I seem to be trying to do everything at once, I have a angel that
needs to be foiled and soldered, and a large window I want to start, stones
that need to be poured, and I want to give making a frame a go.

All the help I have received on this page, not to mention encouragement has
given me continued enthusiasm.

Linda JO

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 5:35 PM
Subject: Stepping stone info


>Wow...there is **alot** of interest in stepping stones.
>You guys really need to send in bios! ;o)
>There's a plug for ya Patrick!!  I have seen lots of names I have never
>seen before.
>
>I am working on typing up some information offline.  When I can get it
>finished I will post it on bungi instead of individual emails.  Then if
>you want to email me privately with any questions, fine by me.
>
>Sorry for not emailing you each individually right now, but time to pick
>up my daughter from school, and my 2 yr old is building a castle
>currently with my canned goods.  Hope those poor toes survive!
>
>Oh..we are also going to the Dollar store! My son says he needs more
>dollars! :o)  I told him meeeeeee too!
>
>Hopefully I can post it before tonight.
>
>Tulsa Suzanne
>----
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>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:22:57 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: demo Taurus II Saw?
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 17:49:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.124950.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.5118.0>>
Precedence: bulk

barbara elmore wrote:
> 
> Live in Western North Carolina, and would like
> to demo the Taurus II saw before I buy.  Does anyone
> know of any dealers in my area (even southern VA,
> northern SC, etc) that sell?
> 
> Can't find Gemini Saw Co listing on web, or would
> call them and find out dealers.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> ----
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there address:  http://www.geminisaw.com/


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:31:57 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!MD6868
From: MD6868@aol.com
To: suzy@ComCAT.COM, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:47:12 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.224712.0>
Precedence: bulk

Gets my vote as well! "Leaded Be" would seem to be understated, while at the
same time, should serve to make that small part of the population that still
thinks regularly,wonder just it means ! Bravo!

Richard
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:36:41 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: SKDJ@aol.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: marking glass
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:52:07 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.22527.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

Paint pen, Red, White, or Dark, as the  case may be, works well, and is pretty
easy to remove. I also use this to number pieces, in a multi piece work

Richard
Glassics, Inc
Valencia, Ca.
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:48:26 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: MD6868@aol.com
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:00:25 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.23025.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.164356.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I still want to know....
Why, why do you need zinc came?
Its lots of trouble, doesn't add any strength if the panel is framed or
in an opening or other architectural setting,  So why?????????????

Steve
In message <1999Feb4.164356.0@?>, MD6868@aol.com writes
>Hi,
>
>I'm reading this after being away for a few days, and knoowing this group,
>you've probably got 20 reply already, but just in case, here goes!
>
>I've recently done several all zinc channel windows, and did cut all of the
>came with a hacksaw (now have elec. came saw on order, however!!) I used a
>wooden miter box, which I clamped (tightly) to the bench, added some wooden
>stock to bring the came up to cutting range, and (I think this is the key to
>avoiding collapse) used two strong 
>spring scissors type clamps , each places on one side of the cut to be made,
>which clamping holds the came tightly against the cutting stop of the miter
>box, thereby eliminating any chance of "wiggle". I found that I got good cuts,
>(some minor filing needed). At best, however, the hand method is very
>frustrating, so I bit the bullet and got the came saw.!!
>
>Richard
>Glassics Artglass
>Valencia, Ca.
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 16:59:43 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Jane Swetman <swetinusa@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: 16" Mold for Lamp
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:19:07 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.23197.0>
References: <<1999Feb4.104434.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Yes,     I have made a lamp mould in the past of papier mache.  Choose
        the shape and draw it out on a piece of hardboard or plywood.
        Cut out the shape, so you have a template to check the accuracy
        of your building process.

Start with a support of some kind which will let air through, e.g. a
strainer or colander.  place it on a board with holes drilled to allow
air circulation.  

Make up your papier mache solution (wallpaper paste and newspaper)

Apply the strips of paper to the mould base and build it up, moving all
around throughout the process.  Leave to dry (2-3 weeks).  Then you can
pin you pieces to the mould (tacky wax is no good on this kind of mould)
No real worries about igniting the mould when soldering, as there is
quite a mass of material there.

Alternatively,  if you know a wood turner, get her/him to turn the shape
in a solid.  Heavy but indestructible (and expensive)

Steve

T
In message <1999Feb4.104434.0@?>, Jane Swetman
<swetinusa@worldnet.att.net> writes
>Has anyone tried making their own mold? Glass Patterns Quarterly has a
>lamp in an old ('94) issue that I want to make, and call for a 16"
>Odyssey shade (I guess a generic one). Odyssey don't make a 16" shade
>without a pattern, so I thought I'd try my hand at making one.
>
>I wondered if anyone has had any success with making their own.
>
>Also, I've also heard that there used to be a company in the Chicago
>that rented the Odyssey molds but they've gone out of business
>(Aurora?). Does anyone know of a place where they can be rented? 
>
>
>
>Jane in S.W. Suburbs/Chicago''
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 17:09:17 1999
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X-Path: InfoAve.Net!ctombro
From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 12:11:36 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.41136.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.133134.0@[207.126.97.2]>>
Organization: SBWSA
Precedence: bulk



Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 2/4/99 1:27:20 PM, kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU wrote:
>
> >"Honk if you love stained glass"
> >
> >"If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
> >
> >"Visualize....stained glass"
> >
> >"My windows can beat your windows"
>
> Ever since my first stint working for Christie, when I got attacked by some
> Very Mean Nasty Splintery Red Cathedral, I keep threatening to have some T-
> shirts made up saying (in red letters, of course!):
>

>         GIVE BLOOD
>         become a stained-glass artist
>
> Sparks, type B+
>

Sparks,
     This is my definite hands down favorite LOL.  It's going on my car bumper.

with your permission, of course.

Carol T



> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 17:32:18 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "Family Account" <shad@mail2.nai.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Lettering
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:30:23 -0500
Message-ID: <199902060031.TAA15757@smtp.america.net>
Precedence: bulk

That is a good idea.  I just happen to have Photo Shop and don't even use
it.  The Glass Eye is still waiting for me to learn it, but I will get to it
eventually.
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:17 PM
Subject: Lettering


>Had to come up with lettering for a project....I did up the lettering in
>Photoshop, saved as bitmap, used as background to make a pattern in
>Glass Eye, used Glass Eye to distort it slightly...make taller.  It was
>quick.  Of course, I have to finish the rest of the details, now.
>
>I suppose you could do some interesting distortions in Photoshop before
>saving, too....
>
>Dorothy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----
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>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 18:35:53 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!bdudack
From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: <PDRUSS@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:37:17 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.133717.0>
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that ones really good too
-----Original Message-----
From: PDRUSS@aol.com <PDRUSS@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: NG slogans.....


>How about:
>
>Curses, Foiled again. 
>
>
>Dianne
>----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 18:42:55 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: head count for Elisabeth in Florida
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 17:37:44 -0800
Message-ID: <199902060137.RAA31627@oceanus.island.net>
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Hi all

We are investigating the possibility of having a 2 day leaded glass workshop
with Elisabeth in Florida at the end of August as part of "the E-tour".

We have tentative interest from a sponsor, but I would like to get a head
count on the number of bungians that would be interested in attending.
Please email me off line, direct to seaspray@island.net if you would like to
attend a workshop in late August in Florida, location TBA.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 18:58:41 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Stepping stone info
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 19:22:44 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.132244.0>
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Changed my mind.   Although I was surprised at how many people are
interested in making stones, if that is everyone, it isnt worth putting
it on the list.  I've learned, this time.  Gonna keep it on my hard
drive.

So, if you are interested and havent already told me you want it, tell
me and I will send to you.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 19:00:29 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Bumper Stickers and The E tour
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:08:06 +0000
Message-ID: <199902060119.BAA08742@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk

....Even better, sell them to finance the ravenous appetite of a 
certain starving soul on 4 legs who lusts for Irish mutton....
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (... not OF UK)

Patrick wrote:
 How about having the stickers made and selling them to the 
list members to help finance that
Brit Chick's tour? (seriously)

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 19:13:19 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: NG beef grease
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 01:08:06 +0000
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Hi Shirley (et al),
Yorkshire pudding is one of those horrible things that stick at the 
back of your palate and your tongue is forever worrying in a most 
unseemly manner to shift.
Nah!  
Thanks, but not for me!!
Mind you, the Swedes are renowned for knowing what to cook with a 
melange of left-overs. I do a mean dish of  the Swedish variant of 
"Bubble and Squeak".
Give me a couple of onions, some potatoes and a handful of anchovies 
and I'll serve you up an anchovie dish you've never tasted before!!
What's even better.... Toby doesn't like it, so there is more for 
MEEEEE!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (both suffering from food fantasies!!)



Shirley B wrote:
How come no one mentioned Yorkshire Pudding?  Popovers baked in roast
beef fat. My personal favorite from being raised by an English War Bride
mother.
Gotta say, after reading all these NG post, now I know why my mother is
so fond of frying everything.  Although I still suspect it was cause she
was/is such a busy person, it was done to save time.
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 19:37:36 1999
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From: Susan Mankin <smankin@wscc.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Stepping Stones
Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 21:22:32 -0800
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990205212232.007bf5b0@wscc.edu>
Precedence: bulk

Hi, I am new to the list and fairly new to stained glass. I would like some
info on how to successfully pour stepping stones, and is DiamondCrete the
best thing to use, or is there something that works as well for less money?
Thanks in advance.
Susan

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 20:38:26 1999
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From: "Doug Parrott" <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
To: <Glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 19:35:37 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.113537.0>
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Laura,

Stepping stones are great fun and also can be a bit exasperating.

For the past couple years I have been pouring my own cement  instead of the
ready made stones but now I am ready to start using the ready made stone and
doing mosaic work with grout.  Pam Burns-Tappan does great work with this.
Check out her site she really has some good info.  Shirley also does some
fantastic work and she was a great help to me this past year as I tried to
struggle through some stepping stone problems I was having.

When I first started pouring my greatest problem was keeping the glass from
floating to the top.   Out of habit, I always soak my glass in rubbing
alcohol for a few seconds to get off any oil  then after all the glass is
down and you have applied the contact paper be sure to burnish the contact
paper onto the glass real good.   You need to make sure you have good
adhesion or else the pieces will float to the top.   Also, don't forget to
tap.   I no longer  tap on the side of the mold but on to the table that I
am working at.  I usually have at least three to four molds going at one
time so I just tap away with the old hammer onto the picnic table that I use
when I am pouring stones.   Oh yes,  don't forget to use some type of
lubricant.   There are so many different things you can use.   Lately I have
been using cooking oil spray and it works  great.  Also, try not to get the
topping cement mixture too runny or you will have problems down the line
with crumbling and weak stones.    There's nothing worse than putting all
that work into a stone and having it look beautiful and then it cracks and
breaks in two.  I've seen it happen when the cement is not strong enough and
too much water is used.

Oh yes,  another thing,  don't fret when the water rises to the top after
you have poured your stone.  This is a normal cement process and is
necessary for the strength of the stone so say the cement experts I have
talked with.  The water will recede and the stone will look and be great.

Well these are just a few little hints.   Just don't give it gets easier
each time.

Cheryl Parrott
The Glass Parrott
-----Original Message-----
From: HiimLaura@aol.com <HiimLaura@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:29 AM
Subject: First Stepping Stone need advice


>
>Hi all!
>
>I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which
method
>to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over
the
>glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
>applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer?
>
>What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
>greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make
my
>first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
>begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!
>
>Thanks!
>Laura P
>
>PS - Here's my bumpersticker input:   "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 21:33:37 1999
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X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lettering
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:30:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.183030.0>
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Dorothy wrote....
>Had to come up with lettering for a project....I did up the lettering in
>Photoshop, saved as bitmap, used as background to make a pattern in
>Glass Eye, used Glass Eye to distort it slightly...make taller.  It was
>quick.  Of course, I have to finish the rest of the details, now.
>
>I suppose you could do some interesting distortions in Photoshop before
>saving, too....

I may be new to stained glass.....but I am not new to computers and
graphics......so far I have designed all my original patterns on the
computer.   While I don't have the "glass eye"  software (yet?)....I have
gotten good results with using Paint Shop Pro, PhotoShop and Corel 8.    My
stained glass teacher is amazed that I am able to combine the two ..... he
doesn't  have a computer and never doesn't realized the potential.....he
claims to have difficulties getting any of his students to do original
work....he has difficulties getting me to do 'same as everybody else in
class projects' !!!  (I think he likes the challenge...I hate the damn
daffodil!!)

I haven't done any lettering in glass yet, but I am sure that designing on
the 'puter is certainly the way to go for precision.


Take Care,
Soraya

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya may be reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya's web site "The Witches' Thicket"
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
"For Passionate People These Are Desperate Times,
Desperate Measures Call For Passionate Crimes"
--Michael Stanley



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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 22:34:59 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Look out she's baaaaaack
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 23:58:36 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.175836.0>
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Uh oh... "E" is starting to feel better, I guess the medicines or kicking
in.

Welcome back Elisabeth.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Fri Feb  5 23:34:20 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lettering
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 1999 22:21:18 -0800
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>>I haven't done any lettering in glass yet, but I am sure that designing on
the 'puter is certainly the way to go for precision.

Take Care,
Soraya<<

You might just go to http://www.americanbevel.com and download a free demo
copy of Designer ll. It is a rather good program made with stained glass in
mind. The demo will not save copies or print.

Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 00:34:42 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Susan Mankin <smankin@wscc.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Stepping Stones
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 01:53:36 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.195336.0>
References: <<3.0.3.32.19990205212232.007bf5b0@wscc.edu>>
Precedence: bulk

> 
> Hi, I am new to the list and fairly new to stained glass. I would like some
> info on how to successfully pour stepping stones, and is DiamondCrete the
> best thing to use, or is there something that works as well for less money?
> Thanks in advance.
> Susan


Hi Susan, 

In my opinion, if you only want to do one stone, you might as well go
with diamondcrete, I have never used it, but seems about as easy as it
gets.  But I believe it costs you about $15 per stone just for the
diamondcrete, yowza!!

If you like the way stones look and think you might want to make *some*,
there are *much* cheaper ways, that are just as pretty or more so.

I am typing up the way *I do stones for people who have expressed an
interest, I will be happy to send it to you as well.

I had a very unexpected surprise visitor this evening that just left.
Kinda changed my plans, so I havent finished.  Probably have it to you 
tomorrow sometime.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 01:34:53 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Romajoco@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: marking glass
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 02:19:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.201929.0>
References: <<5ac94c15.36bb4976@aol.com>>
Precedence: bulk

> I haven't tried it with my Taurus ring saw yet....but it does not
> come off when I use my grinder.  
> 

I have found that my glass gets much wetter on the grinder than on my
saw.  

T Suz
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 01:57:16 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Lettering
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 08:28:49 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.82849.0>
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Hello!

I must say that I agree with you about dedicated software!

I use Paintshop Pro exclusively and have not felt the need to move to Glass
Eye. I know how to drive the programme I have and am loath to spend the time
learning something else.

I'm quite sure that dedicated software has plenty of neat features but my
old pappy used to say -'If it aint broke don't fix it!' I don't know if I
can be bothered to climb another learning curve! My poor old brain gets
confused enough with all the clutter that's there already!

I expect I will weaken in the end but a kiln is higher up the wish list!

Enjoy your glass work!

Regards

BtB


>
>I may be new to stained glass.....but I am not new to computers and
>graphics......so far I have designed all my original patterns on the
>computer.   While I don't have the "glass eye"  software (yet?)....I have
>gotten good results with using Paint Shop Pro, PhotoShop and Corel 8.
!!)
>



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To: ctombro@InfoAve.Net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 04:59:38 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.95938.0>
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I am with you, Carol!  Absolutely love Spark's slogan:  GIVE BLOOD.....become
a stained glass artist!!!  However, also love Maureen's:  Leaded Be.  Can't
decide between the 2 as they are both GREAT!!!
Lenore
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 02:57:08 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 05:11:08 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.10118.0>
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Hi Richard,
Hope I can answer your question about using zinc on a project.  I use zinc
border especially when it is NOT going to be framed nor placed in an opening
in a wall or door.  Zinc border is much more economical than a wooden border.
The zinc gives it a nice finished edge (IMO) along with sturdiness it needs
for hanging up for a long period of time.  Also, the zinc will not stretch
over a period of time as the lead will.  Please feel free to comment.
Lenore
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 06:38:40 1999
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From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Doug Parrott <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:29:38 -0800
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References: <<1999Feb5.113537.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi, on the mosaic stone what do you do about the sides what keeps it from just
being glass ( or is it) If you put glass on a all ready made stone how do you
prep the stone?? and how do you keep glass in place???
Thanks Laura

Doug Parrott wrote:

> Laura,
>
> Stepping stones are great fun and also can be a bit exasperating.
>
> For the past couple years I have been pouring my own cement  instead of the
> ready made stones but now I am ready to start using the ready made stone and
> doing mosaic work with grout.  Pam Burns-Tappan does great work with this.
> Check out her site she really has some good info.  Shirley also does some
> fantastic work and she was a great help to me this past year as I tried to
> struggle through some stepping stone problems I was having.
>
> When I first started pouring my greatest problem was keeping the glass from
> floating to the top.   Out of habit, I always soak my glass in rubbing
> alcohol for a few seconds to get off any oil  then after all the glass is
> down and you have applied the contact paper be sure to burnish the contact
> paper onto the glass real good.   You need to make sure you have good
> adhesion or else the pieces will float to the top.   Also, don't forget to
> tap.   I no longer  tap on the side of the mold but on to the table that I
> am working at.  I usually have at least three to four molds going at one
> time so I just tap away with the old hammer onto the picnic table that I use
> when I am pouring stones.   Oh yes,  don't forget to use some type of
> lubricant.   There are so many different things you can use.   Lately I have
> been using cooking oil spray and it works  great.  Also, try not to get the
> topping cement mixture too runny or you will have problems down the line
> with crumbling and weak stones.    There's nothing worse than putting all
> that work into a stone and having it look beautiful and then it cracks and
> breaks in two.  I've seen it happen when the cement is not strong enough and
> too much water is used.
>
> Oh yes,  another thing,  don't fret when the water rises to the top after
> you have poured your stone.  This is a normal cement process and is
> necessary for the strength of the stone so say the cement experts I have
> talked with.  The water will recede and the stone will look and be great.
>
> Well these are just a few little hints.   Just don't give it gets easier
> each time.
>
> Cheryl Parrott
> The Glass Parrott
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HiimLaura@aol.com <HiimLaura@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:29 AM
> Subject: First Stepping Stone need advice
>
> >
> >Hi all!
> >
> >I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which
> method
> >to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over
> the
> >glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
> >applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer?
> >
> >What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
> >greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make
> my
> >first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
> >begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!
> >
> >Thanks!
> >Laura P
> >
> >PS - Here's my bumpersticker input:   "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 07:37:54 1999
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X-Path: attcanada.net!tuka
From: "tuka" <tuka@attcanada.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 07:04:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb5.2342.0>
Precedence: bulk

For what it's worth, Leaded Be gets my vote.

Shiela




>I am with you, Carol!  Absolutely love Spark's slogan:  GIVE
BLOOD.....become
>a stained glass artist!!!  However, also love Maureen's:  Leaded Be.
Can't
>decide between the 2 as they are both GREAT!!!
>Lenore
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 07:49:28 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:08:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.5822.0>
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Message text written by INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com
>I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over the
glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer? >

I prefer to pour the concrete in the mold.  Takes less time than
applying to the outside of a stone.  And you don't have to worry
about sharp pieces of glass sticking out, since the mold-method
guarantees that all surface area of the glass is on the same
plane.

<What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make=

my
first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I=

begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!<

I prefer the 14" round mold above all others.  It sells as either a
stand-alone stepping stone (nice sized for a nice price), or as
a table top to the black wrought iron pedistal.  People like the
table size as well.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 08:40:15 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: questions from Shirley G
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:11:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.0112.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.52512.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Are you sure it is a brass ring.  If you are using a metal ring
purchased at a craft store(for machrame or dreamcatchers), then they are
not brass and are coated with somekind of plastic.  You can spend hours
melting it off.  Or you can wrap it with copper foil, but I suggest just
doing it at the attachment points.  If you wrap the whole ring, it is
very hard to get smooth.  You can also, just use so much solder that it
forms a blob around the ring at the attachment site and the solder will
stick to itself.
Hope that helped.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 09:43:08 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Daniel" <dro@teleport.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: bumper stickers
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 10:13:06 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.4136.0>
Precedence: bulk

Daniel, et al

You missed one right in this post (I think)

The Pane ........ ohhhhh the Pane. (with a stained glass window graphic)

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel <dro@teleport.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 04, 1999 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: bumper stickers


>Oh.......you people are fantastic....
>
>..........if we are that creative with words...it's no wonder...
>
>the contest entries are special...:)
>
>Somebody remind me to vote...sigh...
>
>......the PAIN.....oh the pain....
>
>I Got Linux half installed on my laptop...and I'm revamping my
>linux/cum winnt/ cum win98.......box....I'm up to my ears in email..
>I HAVE to get a project done before Saturday...
>
>I've got to bake bread tomorrow....and the cat needs a rabies shot...
>
>How do you people with kids do it??
>
>A Chinese pug and siamese is too much for me...
>
>
>
>=============================================================
>
>
>I can't say which bumper sticker I like the best...
>
>but THESE are the creme' de la creme'
>
>I think EVERYONE who entered the contest should be given their choice
>of bumper stickers....or...if you want...
>
>send me a blank shirt...and I'll print you up a nice shirt on my
>trusty bubble jet printer with the slogan of your choice....and the 
>iron on jobbies....ahhhhhhhhh...
>
>the mind boggles...umm......bangles...er...bugles...(how do you spell 
>bugle??)...
>
>
>Later...
>
>
>======================================================
>
>
>
>"Honk if you love stained glass"
>
>"Visualize....stained glass"
>
>"My windows can beat your windows"    <<<<<this one is classic....
>
>Glass Artists Do It in the SUNSHINE!
>
>real artists are a pane in the glass!
>
>glass workers score more!
>
>I'd rather be scoring than breaking up.<<<<<<<<<<<<<a very nice inside
>joke.
>
>Old glaziers never die... they just get re-leaded.
>
>(how about old glaziers never die...they just get rehung...:)..ahem...)
>
>
>
>
>
>Daniel in Oregon
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 09:51:11 1999
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X-Path: ameritech.net!garys
From: "GARY SCHROEDER" <garys@ameritech.net>
To: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG beef grease
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:26:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.6267.0>
Precedence: bulk

snip
I do a mean dish of  the Swedish variant of
>"Bubble and Squeak".
>Give me a couple of onions, some potatoes and a handful of anchovies
>and I'll serve you up an anchovie dish you've never tasted before!!
>What's even better.... Toby doesn't like it, so there is more for
>MEEEEE!
>
Smart Dog!!

For myself, I take the yorkshire pudding amd A Thick slice of Prime Rib.
Leave the anchovies on someone elses pizza.

Gary
Back to burned and nleeding fingers.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 09:56:50 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 08:55:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.05532.0>
References: <<m108nRV-0003ceC@daver.bungi.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I pour my own.  I prefer that.  You have more control and it is less
expensive.
I have never used diamondcrete, but have seen the finninshed product and
it looks very nice.
First off.   Concrete is a mix of cement, sand, gravel.  You can buy
pre-mix or ready mix(in my area right now)in 90lb bags for $2.79. 
90lbs. will make 3 fouteen inch dia./2 inch thich stones.  Pre-mix is
notoriously chinzy with the cement.  So it wouldn't hurt to reinforce it
with some cement called Portland Type II & III.   48 oz. of it to a bag
of cement is a pretty good mixture.  If you use too much, then the top
of your stone will act like clay and it is hard to smooth out.
Also don't use chicken wire to reinforce your stone.  First off; a piece
of concrete that small, really does not need it.  But I like to use a
product called fiber mesh.  You buy it at your local ready mix(where the
cement trucks come from)retailer.  It comes in 8-14 oz bags.  It looks
like thick dirty angel hair that you decorate at christmas with.  It is
10 times stronger than chicken wire, and six times cheaper.  One 14 oz
bag will  make 40 14"dia./2" deep stones.  The cost is around $5 a bag
and all you do it simply throw in a handful as you mix your concrete.
I mix my concrete in a small plastic wheel barrow.  I use a kids
shovel(real wooden handle, metal shovel)to mix with.
Try a small stone until you get the feel of working in concrete. 
Concrete is like cooking. The mixture should feel like molded cookie
dough or breaded hamburger that you are going to make meatballs with.
Like making pastry, a little water goes a long way.  And like fudge.
Never on a rainy day.
Drying time depends on the weather.  I live on the oregon coast and I
bring mine in the house to dry.  If you have them in 72degrees, 14" dia.
will dry in 12 hours.  Smaller ones, say, 8" dia. will dry in 9 hours.
Or you can leave them for 3 days. But once you have taken them out, then
put them on a couple of 2X4's so the air can get to all sides.
Do not confuse dry with cure.  Concrete does dry by evaporation but it
is cured because of a chemical reaction.  And that takes 30 days.  So
you really should not plant them for at least 30 days.
When you do plant them.  This is very important.  Plant them on 1 1/2
inches of clean sand.  You can't run down to the beach and get some
sand.  Concrete has been known to chemically react with the salt in the
sand.  Don't ask me what kind of reaction, I have only read that it can
happen.  You don't want any debris in your sand, because it can act like
a fulcrum and break the stone over time.  Best results would be to plant
the stone flush with the ground.  If you plant it correctly, you can
drive on them.  I would love to see someone do a driveway with these.
And as for molds.  Anything plastic will work.  So go down to your local
2nd time around and look for tupperware.  Loaf pans make great bricks. 
Cake pans are great 8" rounds.  I use plastic potted plant drip catcher.
The 16" dia. ones make perfect 14" dia. stones.  The plastic is a little
soft, so put it on a board that is large enough to support the concrete
filled mold and still light enough for you to carry.  Then carry the
board not the filled mold. You can also make your own mold from wood. 
And if you want something unique, you can use plastic molds sold in kids
beach toy kits, or cake or jello molds.
Be sure you do this on a level surface.  Someplace that is easy to clean
up.  Wear clothes you never plan to wear again.  And protect your hands.
And be prepared to get wet.  Clean up will require a hose with a power
nozzle. And I have never figured out how not to spray myself during this
process!  Concrete can cause burns. So if you get it on your skin wash
it off immediatley.  Your hands will tolerate it better than other parts
of your body.  I use cheap garden gloves, the ones that have the little
plastic bumps on the palm side.  And I wear latex gloves inside those. 
Concrete does not stick to plastic, if you clean up right away, your
mold will never look like you have used it.  And those bumpy gloves help
get the concrete off.
There is also a recipe called the 1-2-3 method.  I believe it means one
part cement to 2 parts sand to 3 parts water.  But I would not swear to
it.  If you use sandblasting sand, you can get a very nice looking
stone.  But to me the other way is cheaper and the stone is under the
ground so what difference does it make?
Good Luck and if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Shirley B
> 
> > I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which method
> > to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over the
> > glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
> > applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer?
> >
> > What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
> > greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make my
> > first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
> > begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!
> >
> 
> I have made serval stepping stones using diamondcrete and a mold
> that had glass laid in it.  I have had quite good results.
> 
> --
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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-- 
x�>"3
�
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re:  Re: marking glass
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 12:12:57 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.171257.0>
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In a message dated 2/5/99 8:18:04 PM, MD6868@aol.com wrote:

>Paint pen, Red, White, or Dark, as the  case may be, works well, and is
pretty
>easy to remove.

I kinda like yellow paint pen.

I'd be a little concerned about covering the lines with chapstick though, that
stuff is greasy and I wouldn't want my fingers to slip and maybe get into the
saw.......


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 10:54:17 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Bumper Stickers and The E tour
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 11:19:49 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.51949.0>
Precedence: bulk

How about  "The Brit Chick Rules"....... a feeble attempt at pacification.
LOL

-----Original Message-----
From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Bumper Stickers and The E tour


>....Even better, sell them to finance the ravenous appetite of a
>certain starving soul on 4 legs who lusts for Irish mutton....
>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (... not OF UK)
>
>Patrick wrote:
> How about having the stickers made and selling them to the
>list members to help finance that
>Brit Chick's tour? (seriously)
>
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>

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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Daniel German's  nGlass
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 09:59:50 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.15950.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.72723.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

This is a great site.  Thank you for telling us about it.
Shirley B
> 
> http://aries27.uwaterloo.ca/nglass/index.html
> 
> Have fun!
> 
> Diane Manchester
> Tiffany Styled Originals
> Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 11:45:13 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Bumper stickers so far
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:58:30 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.25830.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

You bet your sweet glass...
A Glass of It's Own
Get Glassed!
Glassified
"I'd rather be scoring"
Torched.
 "snaps under pressure"
> "on the cutting edge"
> "grinds with the best of 'em"
> "%$&#, foiled again!"
"Leaded be" 
... and leaded be Light.
And God saw it was good.
Curses, Foiled again. 
"Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"

Honk if you love stained glass"
"If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
"Visualize....stained glass"
My windows can beat your windows"
           /\                            _________________          
                  /    \                         
\                            /
                /        \                         \   Stained Glass  /
              / Beauty \                        \         on          /
            /      on      \                        \     Board      /
          /      Board    \                         \                /
         /____________\                         \_______/           
"View the world through stained glass"
"glassers know the score." 
 "glassers know how to score."

"Get your Glass in Gear!"

"Lead, Foil, or get out of the way!"

"My other car is a Kiln"

"Don't laugh, I spend my $$$ on Glass."

"Aw flux, foiled again!"

"To bead, or not to bead"  (Shakespeare)

"Keep your glass to the grindstone"

"Oh, Frit...blasted again!"

"Use Came, or Foil, Then Solder"  (Caesar said it best! I came, I saw..
well
you know)

"Working my Glass Off!"  (has a double meaning)

"You have got to be fidding?"  (Now I am killing myself!!!  LOL)

"Grozing in the Glass"  song - (Grazing in the grass)

"Got Glass?"  (and we could all have little glass moustaches)

"Super cooled liquid manipulator"  (okay, a little on the egghead side)

"Heart of Glass"  (Blondie's back you know?)

 GIVE BLOOD
        become a stained-glass artist
Stained Glass Artists - a cut above the rest.
The Pane ........ ohhhhh the Pane.
"Life is a multicolored Pane."

"Life is a Pane in the Glass"

"I look at life thru multicolored glasses"

"If the pieces fit.....solder them!"
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 12:02:29 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:33:25 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.23325.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I have been toying with this  idea.  My kids when they were little,
loved the hidden picture books.  I saw a panel(done by Robert Oddy, I am
pretty sure)that the outline of an animal was in the solder lines, but
not in the design.  Kind of like, do you see the vase or two profiles.
Anyway.  Wissmach puts out a lot of glass that looks pretty dull til you
get a bright light shinning through it.  And my idea is:  To make a
large suncatcher(12" dia.)that looks like one thing and then when a
bright light shines through it and only then, you can see other things
in the panel.  My first thought is a jungle scene, that only show
vegitation until a bright light hits it and then you see the jaguar
sleeping on the tree branch and the monkey swinging on the vine etc.
My question is.  Has anyone already done this(and I can't believe no one
ever has) and is there a site on the web to see it?
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 12:10:13 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Beveler4
From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: glassinmd@hotmail.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Bevel Max
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:08:14 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.19814.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Jeanne,
To answer your question , in my opinion the bevel max might be OK if you were
going to do a lot of cut-offs (a stock bevel with the end cut off to make it
fit a specific window size). I have found that they take a lot of practice to
master and from what I understand the replacement wheels for the polishing
stage of the operation don't last long. But if you were going to do a lot of
cut-offs it might be worth it, and then find a wheel set up for the polishing
stage seperate from the Max. For ten bevels it is not hardly worth the
trouble, find someone to do them for you it would be much cheaper in the end.
Beveling isn't for everyone it takes a lot of patience and is very time
consuming. Sorry that I didn't answer you sooner but my local server was down
for a few days VERY Frustrating!!!!!! Beveler4(Stan)  
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 13:00:43 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:52:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.95251.0>
Precedence: bulk

Lenore-

Zinc is more rigid than lead, but not necessarily stronger... we avoid it=

because it's known to fail much more quickly at the solder joints than le=
ad
over an extended period of time.  On the rare occasions that we hang a
piece without frame, we use a wider lead and just make sure that all the
lead or solder points that abutt the border are soldered onto the border.=
..
that keeps the border lead from pulling away from the window.  If you kno=
w
you're going to frame this way to begin with, design the window so that y=
ou
have a couple of abutting joints that you can also affix hanging rings to=

in the appropriate locations.  And, of course, cement the window for
strength.  You should be able to do a 4 s.f. window this way without
sagging problems easily.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 13:02:29 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Marking glass
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:29:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.72933.0>
Precedence: bulk

How about the old china markers? Those pencil things that we all loved to
enjoy unwrapping when we were kids. They came in all colors and I am sure an
office supply place would still carry them.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 13:18:00 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bumper Stickers and The E tour
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 13:41:17 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.74117.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.51949.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> How about  "The Brit Chick Rules"....... a feeble attempt at pacification.
> LOL
> 
How about T shirts with  "The Brit Chick Rules" and a pick of a cujoish
Toby chasing a mad hatter Irishman in a pink glass tutu??????

Gosh, maybe I should quit trying to sell my glass, and just start making
some of the things we've been talking about, and sell to you guys! ;o)
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 13:26:25 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Saturday Bios
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 13:36:47 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.73647.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sorry gang no one has sent me any bios to post. Just promises, promises,
promises (and not just from the male gender either).

That "Brit Viking Chick and Company"  are preparing to set sail for Texas
and gnaw on my gnomon again if ya'll (that's Texan)  don't send some bios
quick.

BTW I forgot who requested all the past bios. Did I respond? Bacon Grease
sandwiches have clogged my brain all week. Send request again and get out
your bi-focals.





Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 13:40:39 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:07:43 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.8743.0>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley,

I am insulted you forgot mine ....

I'd rather be scoring  ..... than snoring!

and it is soooooo unforgettable to. LOL
-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 1:59 PM
Subject: Bumper stickers so far


>You bet your sweet glass...
>A Glass of It's Own
>Get Glassed!
>Glassified
>"I'd rather be scoring"
>Torched.
> "snaps under pressure"
>> "on the cutting edge"
>> "grinds with the best of 'em"
>> "%$&#, foiled again!"
>"Leaded be" 
>... and leaded be Light.
>And God saw it was good.
>Curses, Foiled again. 
>"Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
>
>Honk if you love stained glass"
>"If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
>"Visualize....stained glass"
>My windows can beat your windows"
>           /\                            _________________          
>                  /    \                         
>\                            /
>                /        \                         \   Stained Glass  /
>              / Beauty \                        \         on          /
>            /      on      \                        \     Board      /
>          /      Board    \                         \                /
>         /____________\                         \_______/           
>"View the world through stained glass"
>"glassers know the score." 
> "glassers know how to score."
>
>"Get your Glass in Gear!"
>
>"Lead, Foil, or get out of the way!"
>
>"My other car is a Kiln"
>
>"Don't laugh, I spend my $$$ on Glass."
>
>"Aw flux, foiled again!"
>
>"To bead, or not to bead"  (Shakespeare)
>
>"Keep your glass to the grindstone"
>
>"Oh, Frit...blasted again!"
>
>"Use Came, or Foil, Then Solder"  (Caesar said it best! I came, I saw..
>well
>you know)
>
>"Working my Glass Off!"  (has a double meaning)
>
>"You have got to be fidding?"  (Now I am killing myself!!!  LOL)
>
>"Grozing in the Glass"  song - (Grazing in the grass)
>
>"Got Glass?"  (and we could all have little glass moustaches)
>
>"Super cooled liquid manipulator"  (okay, a little on the egghead side)
>
>"Heart of Glass"  (Blondie's back you know?)
>
> GIVE BLOOD
>        become a stained-glass artist
>Stained Glass Artists - a cut above the rest.
>The Pane ........ ohhhhh the Pane.
>"Life is a multicolored Pane."
>
>"Life is a Pane in the Glass"
>
>"I look at life thru multicolored glasses"
>
>"If the pieces fit.....solder them!"
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 14:31:47 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:41:19 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.44119.0>
References: <<023c01be520c$5c440780$03ee18d0@708714093>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

So sorry, you must have sneaked it in on another post.
Hey I meant to tell you.  Was channel surfing the other night and
stopped short when I saw these two guys in tutu and tiarra's.  It was a
show called the Bobcats big ass show.  I kid you not.  They had to dance
and the audience decided the winner.
Was one of them you, Patrick?
Shirley B

Pat Kelly wrote:
> 
> Shirley,
> 
> I am insulted you forgot mine ....
> 
> I'd rather be scoring  ..... than snoring!
> 
> and it is soooooo unforgettable to. LOL

> >

-- 
x�>"3
�
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 16:32:48 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 14:46:17 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.84617.0>
Precedence: bulk

No it wasn't me on that tv show. I only perform live for the Russian Ball=
et
at the Metropolitan in New York, assorted personal friends and animals, a=
nd
my neighbors when they don't invite me to their Bar-B-Ques. I figure it
spoils the appetite of their guests so much the next time they will invit=
e
me just to be safe. LOL

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
Cc: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far


>So sorry, you must have sneaked it in on another post.
>Hey I meant to tell you.  Was channel surfing the other night and
>stopped short when I saw these two guys in tutu and tiarra's.  It was a
>show called the Bobcats big ass show.  I kid you not.  They had to dance
>and the audience decided the winner.
>Was one of them you, Patrick?
>Shirley B
>
>Pat Kelly wrote:
>>
>> Shirley,
>>
>> I am insulted you forgot mine ....
>>
>> I'd rather be scoring  ..... than snoring!
>>
>> and it is soooooo unforgettable to. LOL
>
>> >
>
>--
>x=9F>"3=16=01=06=90=08
>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 16:50:01 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far Revised
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 12:59:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.45956.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.25830.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

> 
> You bet your sweet glass...
> A Glass of It's Own
> Get Glassed!
> Glassified
> "I'd rather be scoring"
> Torched.
>  "snaps under pressure"
> > "on the cutting edge"
> > "grinds with the best of 'em"
> > "%$&#, foiled again!"
> "Leaded be"
> ... and leaded be Light.
> And God saw it was good.
> Curses, Foiled again.
> "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
> 
> Honk if you love stained glass"
> "If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
> "Visualize....stained glass"
> My windows can beat your windows"
>            /\                            _________________
>                   /    \
> \                            /
>                 /        \                         \   Stained Glass  /
>               / Beauty \                        \         on          /
>             /      on      \                        \     Board      /
>           /      Board    \                         \                /
>          /____________\                         \_______/
> "View the world through stained glass"
> "glassers know the score."
>  "glassers know how to score."
> 
> "Get your Glass in Gear!"
> 
> "Lead, Foil, or get out of the way!"
> 
> "My other car is a Kiln"
> 
> "Don't laugh, I spend my $$$ on Glass."
> 
> "Aw flux, foiled again!"
> 
> "To bead, or not to bead"  (Shakespeare)
> 
> "Keep your glass to the grindstone"
> 
> "Oh, Frit...blasted again!"
> 
> "Use Came, or Foil, Then Solder"  (Caesar said it best! I came, I saw..
> well
> you know)
> 
> "Working my Glass Off!"  (has a double meaning)
> 
> "You have got to be fidding?"  (Now I am killing myself!!!  LOL)
> 
> "Grozing in the Glass"  song - (Grazing in the grass)
> 
> "Got Glass?"  (and we could all have little glass moustaches)
> 
> "Super cooled liquid manipulator"  (okay, a little on the egghead side)
> 
> "Heart of Glass"  (Blondie's back you know?)
> 
>  GIVE BLOOD
>         become a stained-glass artist
> Stained Glass Artists - a cut above the rest.
> The Pane ........ ohhhhh the Pane.
> "Life is a multicolored Pane."
> 
> "Life is a Pane in the Glass"
> 
> "I look at life thru multicolored glasses"
> 
> "If the pieces fit.....solder them!"
I'd rather be scoring  ..... than snoring!
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 16:53:46 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!MD6868
From: MD6868@aol.com
To: s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 15:56:07 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.20567.0>
Precedence: bulk


Steve,

In the example I gave, I did two Frank Lloyd Wright "inspired" windows, which
were approx 2' x 3', and for the sake of authenticity, all caming was zinc, as
was the original design which "inspired" these two. In another window for a
customer, which was of the same type, but a different design, lead came was
used in the interior caming process, but the exterior, or frame, was zinc, as
this panel was applied using clips, from the inside, over a double glazed
aluminum double hung window, and wood framing wasn't appropriate. The zinc was
used to give the piece exterior rigidity.I have read that Wright and similar
designers specified Zinc, or Brass sometimes copper, for just that reason,
lighter weight than lead, more rigidity.

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, Ca
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 16:59:18 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Doug Parrott <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:59:56 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.205956.0>
References: <<1999Feb5.113537.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I too am thinking of starting to make paving stones with mosaics.

I've seen a certain amount of talk about the strength of the cement.
But I have never seen anything about reinforcements.  In the building
industry they use a metal grid over which the cement is poured.  Does
anyone reinforce their stones with metal, wire, or anything else?

Steve
 Parrott <bird_cage@email.msn.com> writes
>Laura,
>
>Stepping stones are great fun and also can be a bit exasperating.
>
>For the past couple years I have been pouring my own cement  instead of the
>ready made stones but now I am ready to start using the ready made stone and
>doing mosaic work with grout.  Pam Burns-Tappan does great work with this.
>Check out her site she really has some good info.  Shirley also does some
>fantastic work and she was a great help to me this past year as I tried to
>struggle through some stepping stone problems I was having.
>
>When I first started pouring my greatest problem was keeping the glass from
>floating to the top.   Out of habit, I always soak my glass in rubbing
>alcohol for a few seconds to get off any oil  then after all the glass is
>down and you have applied the contact paper be sure to burnish the contact
>paper onto the glass real good.   You need to make sure you have good
>adhesion or else the pieces will float to the top.   Also, don't forget to
>tap.   I no longer  tap on the side of the mold but on to the table that I
>am working at.  I usually have at least three to four molds going at one
>time so I just tap away with the old hammer onto the picnic table that I use
>when I am pouring stones.   Oh yes,  don't forget to use some type of
>lubricant.   There are so many different things you can use.   Lately I have
>been using cooking oil spray and it works  great.  Also, try not to get the
>topping cement mixture too runny or you will have problems down the line
>with crumbling and weak stones.    There's nothing worse than putting all
>that work into a stone and having it look beautiful and then it cracks and
>breaks in two.  I've seen it happen when the cement is not strong enough and
>too much water is used.
>
>Oh yes,  another thing,  don't fret when the water rises to the top after
>you have poured your stone.  This is a normal cement process and is
>necessary for the strength of the stone so say the cement experts I have
>talked with.  The water will recede and the stone will look and be great.
>
>Well these are just a few little hints.   Just don't give it gets easier
>each time.
>
>Cheryl Parrott
>The Glass Parrott
>-----Original Message-----
>From: HiimLaura@aol.com <HiimLaura@aol.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Friday, February 05, 1999 7:29 AM
>Subject: First Stepping Stone need advice
>
>
>>
>>Hi all!
>>
>>I feel I am ready to make my first stepping stone and am not sure which
>method
>>to use. I have seen that they can be made by pouring the wet concrete over
>the
>>glass that has been placed in the mold or by using a finished stone and
>>applying the glass in a mosaic fashion : which do you prefer?
>>
>>What types of molds are best and how about concrete and colors? I'd be
>>greatful for any advice on the matter. I am getting quite excited to make
>my
>>first stone, but figured I had better check with all the experts before I
>>begin to avoid any unnecessary disasters!
>>
>>Thanks!
>>Laura P
>>
>>PS - Here's my bumpersticker input:   "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 17:05:50 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
Subject: Re: NG beef grease
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:37:16 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.203716.0>
References: <<199902060119.BAA08736@saturn.nildram.co.uk>>
Precedence: bulk

But note everybody, the anchovies have to be fresh, not those salted,
oiled, and generally awful stuff usually found in non coastal states.

In message <199902060119.BAA08736@saturn.nildram.co.uk>, Toby
<toby@northlights.co.uk> writes
>Hi Shirley (et al),
>Yorkshire pudding is one of those horrible things that stick at the 
>back of your palate and your tongue is forever worrying in a most 
>unseemly manner to shift.
>Nah!  
>Thanks, but not for me!!
>Mind you, the Swedes are renowned for knowing what to cook with a 
>melange of left-overs. I do a mean dish of  the Swedish variant of 
>"Bubble and Squeak".
>Give me a couple of onions, some potatoes and a handful of anchovies 
>and I'll serve you up an anchovie dish you've never tasted before!!
>What's even better.... Toby doesn't like it, so there is more for 
>MEEEEE!
>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (both suffering from food fantasies!!)
>
>
>
>Shirley B wrote:
>How come no one mentioned Yorkshire Pudding?  Popovers baked in roast
>beef fat. My personal favorite from being raised by an English War Bride
>mother.
>Gotta say, after reading all these NG post, now I know why my mother is
>so fond of frying everything.  Although I still suspect it was cause she
>was/is such a busy person, it was done to save time.
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 17:10:20 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 16:54:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.115420.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.23325.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> I have been toying with this  idea.  My kids when they were little,
> loved the hidden picture books.  I saw a panel(done by Robert Oddy, I am
> pretty sure)that the outline of an animal was in the solder lines, but
> not in the design.  Kind of like, do you see the vase or two profiles.
> Anyway.  Wissmach puts out a lot of glass that looks pretty dull til you
> get a bright light shinning through it.  And my idea is:  To make a
> large suncatcher(12" dia.)that looks like one thing and then when a
> bright light shines through it and only then, you can see other things
> in the panel.  My first thought is a jungle scene, that only show
> vegitation until a bright light hits it and then you see the jaguar
> sleeping on the tree branch and the monkey swinging on the vine etc.
> My question is.  Has anyone already done this(and I can't believe no one
> ever has) and is there a site on the web to see it?
> Thanks in advance.
> Shirley B
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


 i think in one of the patterns quartely, they overlayed a darker glass
on the back of a lighter glass, for a giraffe. it was a pretty good
effect. i would probably try to find the glass before making the design.
i personally have some kind of glass that have a few outlines of fish in
it. someday i'll do something with it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 17:18:39 1999
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X-Path: ticnet.com!rjlcon
From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: <Yegnim@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 16:38:23 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.103823.0>
Precedence: bulk

Okay guys, I need some opinions here are you saying if you were making
sidelights that measure 8 inches by 83 inches would you use a zinc frame
around it or not?
       Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Yegnim@aol.com <Yegnim@aol.com>
To: s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
<s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>; glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 5:04 AM
Subject: Re: cutting zinc


>Hi Richard,
>Hope I can answer your question about using zinc on a project.  I use zinc
>border especially when it is NOT going to be framed nor placed in an
opening
>in a wall or door.  Zinc border is much more economical than a wooden
border.
>The zinc gives it a nice finished edge (IMO) along with sturdiness it needs
>for hanging up for a long period of time.  Also, the zinc will not stretch
>over a period of time as the lead will.  Please feel free to comment.
>Lenore
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 17:19:59 1999
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From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: sorry
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:16:49 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.231649.0>
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make that :

"I'd rather be leading"


Dianne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 17:52:27 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 19:13:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.141339.0>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley,

While I never got around to it and probably never will, for years I saved
up pieces (scraps) of glass that looked pure white on one side and
colored on the other.  The plan was to make a lamp that was all white
until you turned it on.

Gary Dodge

On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:33:25 -0800 Shirley Balloch
<balloch@netbridge.net> writes:
>I have been toying with this  idea.  My kids when they were little,
>loved the hidden picture books.  I saw a panel(done by Robert Oddy, I 
>am
>pretty sure)that the outline of an animal was in the solder lines, 
>but
>not in the design.  Kind of like, do you see the vase or two 
>profiles.
>Anyway.  Wissmach puts out a lot of glass that looks pretty dull til 
>you
>get a bright light shinning through it.  And my idea is:  To make a
>large suncatcher(12" dia.)that looks like one thing and then when a
>bright light shines through it and only then, you can see other 
>things
>in the panel.  My first thought is a jungle scene, that only show
>vegitation until a bright light hits it and then you see the jaguar
>sleeping on the tree branch and the monkey swinging on the vine etc.
>My question is.  Has anyone already done this(and I can't believe no 
>one
>ever has) and is there a site on the web to see it?
>Thanks in advance.
>Shirley B
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 18:05:03 1999
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From: "Ron Scopelleti" <d326502@er.uqam.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: help me please
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 18:17:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.13174.0>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE51FC.E605C9A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Iam  looking for a design and form of the  Green  Lutus Leaf ,the shade =
is 25inches in diameter,tapers down to an small 2inch aperture,and, with =
a height of 61/2,It resemblances a oriental hat, so sometimes referred =
to as The Mandarin Shade.  altogether there are more than 1300 pieces of =
leaded glass in this shade .In the tiffany album,the lotus shade bears =
the number 1524.                       =20
           =20
                                     thank you, if you can not help =
please let me know anyway.

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE51FC.E605C9A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Iam&nbsp; looking for a design and =
form of=20
the&nbsp; Green&nbsp; Lutus Leaf ,the shade is 25inches in =
diameter,tapers down=20
to an small 2inch aperture,and, with a height of 61/2,It resemblances a =
oriental=20
hat, so sometimes referred to as The Mandarin Shade.&nbsp; altogether =
there are=20
more than 1300 pieces of leaded glass in this shade .In the tiffany =
album,the=20
lotus shade bears the number=20
1524.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;=20
thank you, if you can not help please let me know=20
anyway.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_000D_01BE51FC.E605C9A0--

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 18:53:50 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 19:24:30 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.132430.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.205956.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Steve the Concrete guy who is my teacher, says metal reinforcement isnt
necessary.  He uses something called stealth fiber, which I buy from
him.  It is a short white very fine fiber.  I dont know what it is made
from.  He says that is all the reinforment needed. He says he drives a
fork lift (without it cracking) over the same *recipe* that I use, so it
should be strong enough to step on.  That was good enough for me.  It is 
the same as he uses in the decorative concrete business.  He has been at
it a long time.  I take his word as gospel when it comes to concrete.

Also,
I read an article not too long ago written by an engineer, ( I wish I
could remember where I read it) who states that the way people are
reinforcing their stones is not effective for strengthening....he went
on to explain why in mathematical and other technical ways that was too
far over my head....

I have ended up too busy doing other things than I had planned, that I
havent had the time to finish writting up the information about the way
I do stones, and look for that article.  

I promise I will finish typing that up and also look for that article as
soon as I can.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 19:03:06 1999
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X-Path: hotmail.com!agacic
From: "Alex Gacic" <agacic@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: To buy or not to buy that is the question
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 17:19:19 PST
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.11919.0>
Precedence: bulk


Hi everyone,

I've run across an interesting opportunity. A small glass and door 
company, actually a man and wife, are retiring and hitting the road in 
their RV.  They live in Freeport, Florida which is about 60 miles east 
of Pensacola in the Florida panhandle.

He wants to sell all his glass, supplies and equipment for a take all 
price of $10K.

It appears he hasnt done much glass work in the past year or two. But it 
really seems he has quite alot of stuff.  Most of the glass is 
Armstrong, some spectrum, and some art glass.  He probably has about 400 
to 500 full size sheets with maybe about 100 half size and smaller 
sheets (all colors).  He has about 20 to 30 cases of various bevels and 
maybe about 20 or 30 bevel pattern sets (still shrink wrapped).  He's 
got several boxes of copper foil, several gallons of glass polish, and 
black patina.  He has several 300 watt irons, some sort of beveler 
contraption(its big anyway), a small band saw, an old grinder, 3 big and 
solid 4X8 tables. Maybe about 12 sidelite frames, some oak some 
mahogany.  A whole bunch of window framing/trim,  Some of that flexbile 
brick molding stuff.  He also has something that drops molten glass in 
and then it spins.

He does not want to break it up and really wants it out of there.  He 
had one guy (not in the business) wanting to buy it, but didnt leave a 
deposit.

I dont have the money or the room for all of it, It sure would be nice 
to have a glass cooperative,  Maybe rent a truck to  drop off everyone's 
goodies.

With really not being the business, it seems like it could be a good 
deal, What do you guys think?

Alex Gacic
The ponderer

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 19:08:22 1999
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X-Path: ebtech.net!proffire
From: "Doug Scale" <proffire@ebtech.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bumper Stickers slogans etc.
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 20:54:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.155412.0>
Precedence: bulk

This one may not work on bumpers but in your shops it gets the message
across.

    If Stained Glass was cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it!!

Doug Scale

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 20:52:21 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:18:28 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.171828.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.141339.0>>
Precedence: bulk

dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Shirley,
> 
> While I never got around to it and probably never will, for years I saved
> up pieces (scraps) of glass that looked pure white on one side and
> colored on the other.  The plan was to make a lamp that was all white
> until you turned it on.
> 
> Gary Dodge
> 
> On Sat, 06 Feb 1999 10:33:25 -0800 Shirley Balloch
> <balloch@netbridge.net> writes:
> >I have been toying with this  idea.  My kids when they were little,
> >loved the hidden picture books.  I saw a panel(done by Robert Oddy, I
> >am
> >pretty sure)that the outline of an animal was in the solder lines,
> >but
> >not in the design.  Kind of like, do you see the vase or two
> >profiles.
> >Anyway.  Wissmach puts out a lot of glass that looks pretty dull til
> >you
> >get a bright light shinning through it.  And my idea is:  To make a
> >large suncatcher(12" dia.)that looks like one thing and then when a
> >bright light shines through it and only then, you can see other
> >things
> >in the panel.  My first thought is a jungle scene, that only show
> >vegitation until a bright light hits it and then you see the jaguar
> >sleeping on the tree branch and the monkey swinging on the vine etc.
> >My question is.  Has anyone already done this(and I can't believe no
> >one
> >ever has) and is there a site on the web to see it?
> >Thanks in advance.
> >Shirley B
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> 
> Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
> 
> http://www.dodgestudio.com
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________

a simaler idea that i had a while ago was to make a white vase, with
blue decorations on the inside. and that would be the lamp. i think i
saw that on some ancient vase of shell or something like that.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 21:03:21 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Alex Gacic <agacic@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy that is the question
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:24:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.172427.0>
References: <<1999Feb7.11919.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Alex Gacic wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I've run across an interesting opportunity. A small glass and door
> company, actually a man and wife, are retiring and hitting the road in
> their RV.  They live in Freeport, Florida which is about 60 miles east
> of Pensacola in the Florida panhandle.
> 
> He wants to sell all his glass, supplies and equipment for a take all
> price of $10K.
> 
> It appears he hasnt done much glass work in the past year or two. But it
> really seems he has quite alot of stuff.  Most of the glass is
> Armstrong, some spectrum, and some art glass.  He probably has about 400
> to 500 full size sheets with maybe about 100 half size and smaller
> sheets (all colors).  He has about 20 to 30 cases of various bevels and
> maybe about 20 or 30 bevel pattern sets (still shrink wrapped).  He's
> got several boxes of copper foil, several gallons of glass polish, and
> black patina.  He has several 300 watt irons, some sort of beveler
> contraption(its big anyway), a small band saw, an old grinder, 3 big and
> solid 4X8 tables. Maybe about 12 sidelite frames, some oak some
> mahogany.  A whole bunch of window framing/trim,  Some of that flexbile
> brick molding stuff.  He also has something that drops molten glass in
> and then it spins.
> 
> He does not want to break it up and really wants it out of there.  He
> had one guy (not in the business) wanting to buy it, but didnt leave a
> deposit.
> 
> I dont have the money or the room for all of it, It sure would be nice
> to have a glass cooperative,  Maybe rent a truck to  drop off everyone's
> goodies.
> 
> With really not being the business, it seems like it could be a good
> deal, What do you guys think?
> 
> Alex Gacic
> The ponderer
> 
> ______________________________________________________
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it's hard to say, certainly mouth watering. but a little pricey. i
figure the beveler, the hot equipment is at least and tools probably
come around to $7000 or so. the bevel sets how much are they about, say
about 50 bucks a piece. and each sheet of glass at a simaler price. 

ideally it sounds pretty good, but you would have to move it. and store
it. if i had the money and space, i would probably go for it. but i
don't, wah... 

if anything you could re-sell some of the stuff, like the doors. and
maybe get some of the money back. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 21:10:55 1999
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From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: art fair jurying
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:46:08 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE521A.1AF5DB60
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I need a little help from everyone.  I am the stained glass artist rep =
for the Texas State Arts and Crafts Council. Besides myself there 11 =
other jurors from other categories who will judge the slides for the =
fair.  The jurying process for stained glass really needs to be updated. =
 I thought coming to this group for suggestions might give me more =
information to input into the process.  The standard is already set as =
far as slides go.  The specifics are  spelled out very plain and =
applicants are tossed if they don't adhere to this first process. =20

So put your thinking caps on and think of how you would like shows to be =
juried.  What should the jurors be looking for?

I look forward to your responses.
Molly Keys

By the way the meeting I have to present this to is February 17.

------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE521A.1AF5DB60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I need a little help from =
everyone.&nbsp; I am=20
the stained glass artist rep for the Texas State Arts and Crafts =
Council.=20
Besides myself there 11 other jurors from other categories who will =
judge the=20
slides for the fair.&nbsp; The jurying process for stained glass really =
needs to=20
be updated.&nbsp; I thought coming to this group for suggestions might =
give me=20
more information to input into the process.&nbsp; The standard is =
already set as=20
far as slides go.&nbsp; The specifics are&nbsp; spelled out very plain =
and=20
applicants are tossed if they don't adhere to this first process.&nbsp;=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>So put your thinking caps on and =
think of how=20
you would like shows to be juried.&nbsp; What should the jurors be =
looking=20
for?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I look forward to your =
responses.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Molly Keys</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>By the way the meeting I have to =
present this to=20
is February 17.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 21:28:13 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Steven Ford <sford@nettally.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Stepping Stones
Date: Sat, 06 Feb 1999 22:08:16 -0600
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Steven

Got some bad news for you.  If you dont already know you have the
Happy99.exe attached to your emails.

In fact, nothing showed in your email to me except the attached happy99
.exe file.  

I dont have the links to the fix it info but others at bungi have it.
and I know it is in the archives not to far back.

Someone want to post the links again to the directions for cleaning up
the happy99 thing?

Thanks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 22:55:30 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: help me please
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 21:21:37 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.132137.0>
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>>Iam  looking for a design and form of the  Green  Lutus Leaf ,the shade =
is 25inches in diameter,tapers down to an small 2inch aperture,and, with =
a height of 61/2,It resemblances a oriental hat, so sometimes referred =
to as The Mandarin Shade.  altogether there are more than 1300 pieces of =
leaded glass in this shade .In the tiffany album,the lotus shade bears =
the number 1524.                       =20
           =20
                                     thank you, if you can not help =
please let me know anyway.
<<

I could find just what you want in my catalogs for Odyssey and Worden, the
two big lamp form and pattern companinies. Worden has a pattern for a
hanging lotus but it is in the lotus flower shape. Worden also has forms
that would seem adaptable to the size shape you desire. My recommendation is
that you get next to a Worden catalog and use your imagination. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 23:07:34 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Ska virus spreads via internet
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:46:16 -0500
Message-ID: <199902070547.AAA02975@smtp.america.net>
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Stephen,
I am just posting this in regard to the Happy99 virus. I don't have your
e-mail so I am just posting this to the board.  It is instructions on how to
remove it.
Linda Jo

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3652/SKA.HTM


begin 666 Ska virus spreads via internet.url
M6TEN=&5R;F5T4VAO<G1C=71=#0I54DP]:'1T<#HO+W=W=RYG96]C:71I97,N
M8V]M+U-I;&EC;VY686QL97DO2&5I9VAT<R\S-C4R+U-+02Y(5$T-"DUO9&EF
8:65D/4$P0C@P1D)&-4,U,D)%,#$Y,PT*
`
end

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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 23:14:01 1999
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From: MISGLAS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: RE: Bumper stickers
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 00:51:53 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.55153.0>
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All the suggestions thus far are creative and some ae very clever, but "Leaded
Be" tops them all, IMHO.  Kathi from Wisconsin
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From owner-glass Sat Feb  6 23:59:49 1999
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X-Path: email.msn.com!bird_cage
From: "Doug Parrott" <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 1999 23:06:09 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.1569.0>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley,

As usual your stepping stone info and advice is perfect.   You were of great
help to me last year when I struggled through some stepping stone problems.
I am printing up your post so that I can have a hard copy for future
reference.   I completely understand why Pam Burns-Tappan calls you her
stepping stone guru.     Way to go


Cheryl Parrott
The Glass Parrott



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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 01:08:29 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: celtic patterns
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:21:27 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.152127.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Just got a book of celtic designs for glass. goody goody goody . Cant
WAIT to finish The Clock from Hell so I can start one.
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 04:21:15 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: UK Bead exhibition info
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:48:24 +0000
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990207104824.007a37b0@mailhost.stainedglass.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk

In case any UK beadmakers havent heard about the exhibition at Broadfield
House Glass Museum here are the details we�ve just received.
It runs from 16 January to 11 April 1999, open Tuesdays to Sundays 2 pm to
5 pm - free admission.
Described on their leaflet as:
The UK�s first ever exhibition dedicated to glass beads and beadwork,
bringing together work from Africa, Asia, the Americas and Europe. Explore
the stunning variety of glass beads, in costume, jewellery and accessories,
from ancient Roman times to UK artists working today.
On the 20 March someone called Chris Watts (over from the USA) will be
demonstrating cane-pulling and lampworking. 
Contact the Museum on 01384 812745 for a leaflet.
Sounds well worth the trip to the West Midlands so we will try to get up
there some time during the exhibition.
Elizabeth
Elizabeth Law
Bournemouth Stained Glass
790 Wimborne Road
Bournemouth
Dorset
BH9 2DX
Tel : 01202 514734
Fax : 01202 250239
htp://www.stainedglass.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 04:51:22 1999
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From: "Doug Parrott" <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
To: <Glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Ska virus spreads via internet
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:47:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb6.194743.0>
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Linda,

just wanted to say thanks again for sending the info this past week on how
to get rid of that nasty virus.  Now if you can just get rid of this virus
in my head I will be really really really happy.   I'm tired of blowing my
nose every few minutes and my throat is killing me.

Cheryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Letscher <andor@fair.net>
To: bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 06, 1999 11:12 PM
Subject: Ska virus spreads via internet


>Stephen,
>I am just posting this in regard to the Happy99 virus. I don't have your
>e-mail so I am just posting this to the board.  It is instructions on how
to
>remove it.
>Linda Jo
>
>http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3652/SKA.HTM
>
>
>



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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 08:25:09 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Molly Keys <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:12:40 -0500
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Molly Keys wrote:


what are they looking for now?

when the contest was in my area, (i wich they stil had it). they had
different catagories:

best 3-d
best lamp
best panel
most original
peoples choice

and at the beggining best begginers project. but they stopped that do to
the over whelming amount of book made suncatchers. each catagory had
1st, 2nd, 3rd, and honarable mention places. 

the original design had to be yours. you could enter a book design
though. 

we simply brought the pieces in, i think it cost $5.00 for the first one
and $3.00 for the others. panels i think could'nt me more then 3' x 3'.
and 3-d could'nt cover an are larger then 2' i think. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 08:55:11 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:16:21 +0000
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The latest bulletin as stated by long-suffering friends:
E is more argumentative and cantankerous, so she MUST be on the mend!
;-O)

But where are the BIOS Patrick??
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Uh oh... "E" is starting to feel better, I guess the medicines or kicking
in.

Welcome back Elisabeth.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 09:08:21 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:16:21 +0000
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Aw Shucks, Kathe!
Sorry about the mushrooms! They were out of season and the blue 
ink-caps from the wheatfield down the road had not yet made their 
appearance.
Next time you must try my homebrew (about 9 gallons!!)

In any case, it would be pretty boring if everybody were on their 
"best behaviour"  ;-)

My anchovy dish got rudely rejected by most; though it did lead to an 
offer of temporary employment as anchovy cook somewhere in Colorado 
where I had previously applied for a job as a factory cleaner  ;->

I received my first American dinner date last summer. Provided it 
(i.e. the dinner - not the "date") wasn't cooked then, I'll probably 
survive to do another s.g. workshop.
And I still don't know what a "Phillysteak" is, Ah well....

Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK



Kathe McDonald (a Chartres veteran) wrote:
Come on, folks, let's don't get Elisabeth riled up (English chick).  I 
 fear that these frequent illnesses she's had of late could be stress 
related.....what with these tales of how us Yanks eat. Don't worry 
Elisabeth...we'll all be on our good behavior and won't subject you to any 
culinary frights.  We're all in for a treat....I've spent more than a few 
nights raising a glass with her and she's only better in person.  I, for 
one,can't wait until she gets over here.  I want to know, however, how come 
I didn't get the mushrooms with my breakfast????

  

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 09:22:40 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Brass rings wasRe: questions from Shirley G
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 10:31:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.53136.0>
References: <<1999Feb6.0112.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Shirley Balloch wrote:

> Are you sure it is a brass ring.  If you are using a metal ring
> purchased at a craft store(for machrame or dreamcatchers), then they are
> not brass and are coated with somekind of plastic.

Not sure what kind of metal the ring is?  Why not just wire the suncatcher
onto the ring if you are sure you can solder it on.  Flip the suncatcher
over, lay the ring over it and mark wherever the ring crosses a solder
line.  Pick 3-4 of the surdiest points and solder a length of wire there.
Clean up, then wrap the wire around the ring and tighten it.  (Of course, if
the whole thing fits inside the ring, this won't work...)

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 10:28:10 1999
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From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:06:20 -0600
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I think you misunderstood me.  The jurying is for acceptance to the show.
The awards part is not decided until all the booths are set up and then
those are judged on originality,  best display, and best of categories.
Hope this helps.
Molly
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Molly Keys <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
Cc: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: art fair jurying


>Molly Keys wrote:
>
>
>what are they looking for now?
>
>when the contest was in my area, (i wich they stil had it). they had
>different catagories:
>
>best 3-d
>best lamp
>best panel
>most original
>peoples choice
>
>and at the beggining best begginers project. but they stopped that do to
>the over whelming amount of book made suncatchers. each catagory had
>1st, 2nd, 3rd, and honarable mention places.
>
>the original design had to be yours. you could enter a book design
>though.
>
>we simply brought the pieces in, i think it cost $5.00 for the first one
>and $3.00 for the others. panels i think could'nt me more then 3' x 3'.
>and 3-d could'nt cover an are larger then 2' i think.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
>Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
>too and A Look at Sky City
>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 11:27:08 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: fish and veggies, Elizabeth
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:04:29 -0800
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Sounds like the *Christmas* finnish dish:
Herring...cooked potatoes and carrots, cooked beets and raw onions...all
tied together with whipping cream!
The palette (SP?) doesn't know what hit it:):) but it's rather colorful.
If you ever get to BC, Canada, Elizabeth, I'm sure my mother inlaw would
cook it up for you special!
Cindy:)

>Give me a couple of onions, some potatoes and a handful of anchovies 
>and I'll serve you up an anchovie dish you've never tasted before!!
>What's even better.... Toby doesn't like it, so there is more for 
>MEEEEE!
>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (both suffering from food fantasies!!)
>
>
>
>Shirley B wrote:
>How come no one mentioned Yorkshire Pudding?  Popovers baked in roast
>beef fat. My personal favorite from being raised by an English War Bride
>mother.
>Gotta say, after reading all these NG post, now I know why my mother is
>so fond of frying everything.  Although I still suspect it was cause she
>was/is such a busy person, it was done to save time.
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 11:40:53 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: cutting zinc, now using zinc
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:04:49 -0800
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I'm not impressed with zinc came for framing.
I had done a *large* parrot window that sat in the house hanging for 4 - 5
years, then I sold it. Well much to my surprize, the zinc twisted in 2
corners. Kinda made me ill!!! So after that I decided zinc really needed to
be framed in wood, and shouldn't be left on it's own just hanging (if
there's any sort of weight to it).
Cindy

>I still want to know....
>Why, why do you need zinc came?
>Its lots of trouble, doesn't add any strength if the panel is framed or
>in an opening or other architectural setting,  So why?????????????
>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 11:57:43 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: cutting zinc
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:53:24 -0500
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Message text written by "Jak N Wolfy"
>Okay guys, I need some opinions here are you saying if you were making
sidelights that measure 8 inches by 83 inches would you use a zinc frame
around it or not?<

Absolutely.  And use Strong-Line or Re-strip internal reinforcement too.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 12:01:49 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: To buy or not to buy that is the question
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:53:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.75327.0>
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Just from your description of this guy having 400-500 full-sized
sheets of Armstrong/Spectrum/Art glass there, and assuming
"full-sized" means 8 square feet per sheet, you are looking at
at least $20,000 worth of glass just in the full-sized sheets!  And
he's throwing in all the equipment too?  For $10,000?  What a
deal!

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 12:16:51 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: art fair jurying
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:53:29 -0500
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Message text written by "Molly Keys"
>So put your thinking caps on and think of how you would like shows to be=
 =3D
juried.  What should the jurors be looking for?<

Hi there Molly.  I also am a juror for a Fine Arts & Crafts Festival.  We=

judge
by slides also.  Five slides representing the artist's style are required=
. =

We
look for originality of style - i.e. not just the same old patterns anyon=
e
can
purchase and build.  Consistency of vision throughout the 5 slides.
Technical ability (i.e. good soldering, good designs for the glass, glass=

selection which is appropriate to the subject matter, etc.).  Since this =
is
a
fine arts festival, we are also interested in ideas which expand the medi=
um
in some way.  New and interesting ways of using the glass.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 13:32:18 1999
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Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:24:22 -0500
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2/7/99 10:16 AM Toby toby@northlights.co.uk

>And I still don't know what a "Phillysteak" is, Ah well....

You can only get the real thing in Philly. People that move away have 
strong cravings for them. It's thin-sliced beef sauteed with onions, put 
into a long Italian roll usually with cheese over it (Philly 
cheesesteak). Good.

PA Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 13:58:28 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:40:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.44010.0>
References: <<003201be521f$7ba187c0$af4f43ce@rjlcon>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Well I haven't found the unicorn yet, but I did find Endangered Species
by Juan Rodriguez at Foiled Again Stained Glass Studios in Monongahela,
PA.


Jak N Wolfy wrote:
> 
> Shirley, go to http://www.spectrumglass.com   On the first screen is an
> index, choose gallery and then The Unicorn or I think that's the name of it.
> It kind of reminds me of a Doolittle painting with the hidden things. I
> think it's really good idea if you have the patience to design it.

> 
> >I have been toying with this  idea.  My kids when they were little,
> >loved the hidden picture books.  I saw a panel(done by Robert Oddy, I am
> >pretty sure)that the outline of an animal was in the solder lines, but
> >not in the design.  Kind of like, do you see the vase or two profiles.
> >Anyway.  Wissmach puts out a lot of glass that looks pretty dull til you
> >get a bright light shinning through it.  And my idea is:  To make a
> >large suncatcher(12" dia.)that looks like one thing and then when a
> >bright light shines through it and only then, you can see other things
> >in the panel.  My first thought is a jungle scene, that only show
> >vegitation until a bright light hits it and then you see the jaguar
> >sleeping on the tree branch and the monkey swinging on the vine etc.
> >My question is.  Has anyone already done this(and I can't believe no one
> >ever has) and is there a site on the web to see it?
> >Thanks in advance.
> >Shirley B
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 17:30:38 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, Molly Keys <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 14:05:30 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.6530.0>
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Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

First off to get to this group, you should submit in text not html.
I do lots of craft shows.
My first impression of your post, is that you make the artist jump
through too many hoops and therefore have little regard for the
artist/vendor.
You want good artist?  In this day and age, crafts and art work are not
selling that well.  A lot of artist and crafters have quit doing events,
because it is not worth their while.  With that said.  Your attitude,
would be the first reason not to get vendors for your show.
Slides are a pain to submit.  Accept both prints and slides.  As long as
you can see the product clearly, then it should not be a problem. 
Personally I like prints better.  It is easier for an individual to weed
out the competitors with prints.
Look at your jury from the artist's point of view.  Your artist is not
going to want to present their product, if 3 other vendors are
presenting the same stuff.
You want a variety.
As for workmanship, for small articles, like suncatchers, it really
isn't that important.  The customer usually likes the overall effect. 
Not the workmanship. And they are not educated to the difference.  Plus
poor workmanship is usually because the artist is new to the art, so
allowing him into your show, will be helping an aspiring artist.
If someone is selling large panels, over 18 square inches, then
workmanship is very important, and I would want some sort of example and
or voucher from satisfied customers.
Glass can be done in: panels, suncatchers, boxes, free standing items
like angels, lamps, clocks, pot stickers(designs on brass rods for your
potted plants and gardens), mobiles, cubes(clear glass with sand and
shells(etc.) in the cube),and the latest is stepping stones in various
sizes, which has led to wrought iron tables and benches and sundials.
I would suggest that the artist have several price ranges with their
product.
I would also suggest that you require a picture of their booth or a
design plan of their booth.
If you choose 3 different glass artist, who each sell something
different, your customers will have a good variety and not be
overwhelmed with glass products.
And artist make a living at this.  You need to have some sort of
loyality to your artist.  I personally think, that if they did well the
first year and want to come back, that they get first acceptance to your
show for the next 2 years, no questions asked.  After the 3 year of
presenting at your show, then they need to rejury.
We vendors know what shows are good and know approx. how much we will
make at a show.  We face being rained or blown out.  We face some other
unknown event to ruin the event sales.  We(the vendors) should at least
be assured that for 2 years in a row we will be invited back!
The majority of vendors are not Mom and Pop working at the kitchen
table.  They are professionals with thousands of dollars worth of
equipment who work in their in home shops and take off on the weekend to
see if they made any money.  I am talking about crafters, I can not
speak for artist, I only do craft shows.
Thank you for asking.
Shirley B
Did I leave anything out group or did this come across too harsh?
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 17:47:01 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: To buy or not to buy that is the question
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:04:31 -0800
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I got in late on this one and have deleted some of the prior posts......

400 to 500 of spectrum and Armstrong should not be included as art glass.

One can probably get some of that stuff for around $2.00 sq/ft and HAVE
their choice of glass, I for one would want an inventory of the #'s. If you
can only use half the price becomes double and then you have to "store" it.
 later, H



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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 17:52:11 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:45:16 EST
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In a message dated 2/7/99 12:13:51 AM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Steve the Concrete guy who is my teacher, says metal reinforcement isnt
>necessary.  He uses something called stealth fiber, which I buy from
>him.  It is a short white very fine fiber.  I dont know what it is made
>from.

I'd guess some kind of polyester or polypropylene (or maybe fiberglass, but
these days I'd think it's less likely). I could see where that might have
several advantages including

(1) providing a strengthening matrix all through the piece, unlike the
customary flat net of screen wire

(2) I wonder if its thermal expansion/contraction properties are similar to
concrete's? if so, that cuts down on weather-related stresses

(3) unlike wire mesh it won't rust, so if by some accident you do knock a
chunk of concrete off, you don't end up with ugly reddish-brown streaks like
you do eventually if you've got wire sticking out in the rain.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 18:01:59 1999
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From: stainglasborzoi@webtv.net (GLORIA DRAG)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: 2 inch  round mirror
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:12:08 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.14128.0>
Precedence: bulk

A few mesages ago, someone requested how to  use their  Fletcher circle
cutter to cut 2 inch round mirror.. Better than that, National Artcraft
has 2" round mirror  for $2.20 per 10 pieces,  you would not have to
worry about mirror rot,- since they are a finished piece., no grinding.
And their  minimum order 
is $10.
  Gloria
"

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 18:08:26 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG fresh anchovies and Philly cheese steaks, was RE beef grease
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:45:14 EST
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In a message dated 2/6/99 11:19:37 PM, s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
wrote:

>But note everybody, the anchovies have to be fresh,

I didn't know there was such a thing as a fresh anchovy (she said, scuttling
for shelter).

>not those salted,
>oiled, and generally awful stuff usually found in non coastal states.

Around my house we refer to those as "road-kill fish."

When I was little, my mom used to get those little roll-top rectangular cans
of 'kippers." They smelled like something died. I always went outside when she
opened up one of those for lunch.

Of course I guess in all fairness I ought to admit that to my hypersensitive
nose, *any* fish that took more than about half a minute to get from swimming
to cooking smells like "the underneath side of the dock of the bay".........

Elisabeth: remind us Filthydelphians to take you out for a cheese steak while
you're here. They're goo-oo-oo-oo-ood stuff! (too bad Toby won't be along, I
guarantee he'd love 'em!)


Sparks
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To: suzy@ComCAT.COM, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:40:03 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.13403.0>
References: <<suzy@ComCAT.COM>>
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And in Pittsburgh in the strip district, you have Permanti's that add
the French fries with gravy over the same sandwich, quite the meal..


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Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
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2/7/99 10:16 AM Toby toby@northlights.co.uk

>And I still don't know what a "Phillysteak" is, Ah well....

You can only get the real thing in Philly. People that move away have 
strong cravings for them. It's thin-sliced beef sauteed with onions, put 
into a long Italian roll usually with cheese over it (Philly 
cheesesteak). Good.

PA Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 19:05:31 1999
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From: "Brian Dudack" <bdudack@mediaone.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5.C921CDA0
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Help please anyone who has info on brass or copper piping to tubing. I =
am making garden stick and would like to know where to get them at a =
good price.

On another note My personal favorite bumper sticker is=20

Give blood
become a stained glass artist

cathie

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5.C921CDA0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Help please anyone who has info on =
brass or=20
copper piping to tubing. I am making garden stick and would like to know =
where=20
to get them at a good price.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>On another note My personal favorite bumper sticker =
is=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Give blood</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>become a stained glass artist</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>cathie</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5.C921CDA0--

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 19:25:42 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Results of Wayne and Susan's show?
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:09:48 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.14948.0>
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Hey ...... Wayne and Susan Blake. Whatever happened at your show. Did you
make sooooo much money you decided to vacation in the Bahamas or what.

Inquiring minds want to know ......all the details (not the scandals too
much of that going on in the US now)

Notice to all :

After Action Reports are the price you pay for all this mentoring and
cheerleading from the group.


......... smile   ....................



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 19:43:45 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:15:31 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.141531.0>
Precedence: bulk

This sounds like shredded fiberglass, or carbon fiber. It is used to
strengthen the concrete without the use of rebar (wire).

Stealth fiber ....... sounds like everybody is trying to cash in on the
Stealth Fighter. I think I'll develop Stealth Gloves so I don't have to
bleed all over my workbench.

-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 8:00 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: First Stepping Stone need advice


>
>In a message dated 2/7/99 12:13:51 AM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>Steve the Concrete guy who is my teacher, says metal reinforcement isnt
>>necessary.  He uses something called stealth fiber, which I buy from
>>him.  It is a short white very fine fiber.  I dont know what it is made
>>from.
>
>I'd guess some kind of polyester or polypropylene (or maybe fiberglass, but
>these days I'd think it's less likely). I could see where that might have
>several advantages including
>
>(1) providing a strengthening matrix all through the piece, unlike the
>customary flat net of screen wire
>
>(2) I wonder if its thermal expansion/contraction properties are similar to
>concrete's? if so, that cuts down on weather-related stresses
>
>(3) unlike wire mesh it won't rust, so if by some accident you do knock a
>chunk of concrete off, you don't end up with ugly reddish-brown streaks
like
>you do eventually if you've got wire sticking out in the rain.
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 19:53:55 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!MD6868
From: MD6868@aol.com
To: toby@northlights.co.uk, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:41:31 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.24131.0>
Precedence: bulk

Elizabeth,

A "Phillysteak" aka a "Philly Cheesesteak" is in its east coast version, a
very thinly sliced steak, (often rib -eye) sandwich, which consists of the
aforesaid steak, fried in a pan, or best on a griddle, in some butter or oil,
and served on a crisp warm French roll. Variatiions on the theme include
melting of cheese on it, adding grilled onions and or peppers. Truly
delicious, but not on the healthy heart list. West coast variations might add
lettuce and tomato, pickles, hot peppers, avocado (ugh) of almost anything
else. But as in most things, the purest version is the best. Having spent the
first 35yrs on the East coast and the last 15 in California, I've learned that
the same food item in two different areas might be completely different. 

For example, ordering coffee "regular" in the mid Atlantic states will get you
coffee with milk and sugar added, but elsewhere, regular means "black", or
nothing added. 

The sandwich I described above is, in different parts of the US, known as a
"Sub," Hero, Hogie, or in the New England states, it probably would be called
a "Steak Grinder". Clear as mud ? Good. Just wait. Lot of things go by
different names on this side of the pond.
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 20:07:41 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!MD6868
From: MD6868@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG German anyone?
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:54:11 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.25411.0>
Precedence: bulk

	Since we are such a diverse and multi - talented group (can't you tell I want
something ?) I thought someone could help with a German translation.

As confirmed boomers, my wife and I just fell in love with the new Volkswagen
Beetle, and so, I was fortunate enough to get one for her recently. We had
numerous bugs over the years, and even had a new one in 1967, which cost
exactly 1/10th of what the new one did. We just love the car, and have a rear
license plate frame slogan that takes after a VW ad which says " Hug it ?
Drive it? on the top, and on the bottom says "Ginny's New Beetle. Even though
the new one is assembled in Mexico, all the mechanicals are German, and we
thought it would be fun to replicate this on a front plate frame, it
German.... Can anyone tell me how to say "Hug it ? Drive it ?, and
" Ginny's (short for Virginia) New Beetle?? I think the word for beetle is
Kafer, but I'm not sure.

Thanks

Richard
Glassics Artglass
MD6868@aol'com
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 20:30:42 1999
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From: GlsWorks@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Craft Show Listing
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:08:00 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.380.0>
Precedence: bulk

Does anyone know the web site that lists craft shows by state?  I recall
seeing this site and can't find the address.
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 20:46:45 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 21:54:44 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.155444.0>
References: <<1999Feb7.6530.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> If someone is selling large panels, over 18 square inches, then
> workmanship is very important, and I would want some sort of example and
> or voucher from satisfied customers.


What do you mean by *example*, Shirley?  *And*, assuming you have good
shots of your work, why the voucher from a satisfied customer?

Personally, I have never sold a large panel, but you can be sure If I
were to take one to a show it would be as good a quality or better than
anything else I took to a show.

By that standard, I wouldnt be able to do a juried show until I sold at
least one large panel and asked my customer for a letter of
recommendation...    hmmmmmmmmmm...if you cant get into a show, and you
work at home, how are you gonna sell that panel??  Get your friends and
family that you have given your work to to stand up for you?  Not
exactly unbiased.  They want you to give them more.

PLEASE......Leave some room for some of us newcomers to get in.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 20:54:44 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: hidden figures in glass
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:39:38 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.113938.0>
References: <<000801be5300$ad616820$a575c7d0@bankers>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

> >> Shirley,
> >>
> >> Well, I didn't find the panel I remember... it is of a jungle, and if you
> >> look closely you could pick out animals.  But, I did find a couple of
> things
> >> that may provide inspiration for you.... this fellow is an incredible
> glass
> >> artist.  I always drool when I look at his pages.... hope this helps.
> >>
> >> Dale
> >>
> >> 12 Asian Year Cycle Depicted
> >>
> >> http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/html-data/gpage9.html
> >>
> >> Cat Lamp
> >>
> >> http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/html-data/gpage12.html
> >>
> >> let me know if you have trouble with the links....
> >>
> >> the main page is at:
> >> http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/index.html
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 21:02:13 1999
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X-Path: softhouse.com!giapet
From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:35:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.17358.0>
Precedence: bulk

Brian,

You can get brass welding rods at a weld shop..  Come in different widths and lengths..



Karen

PS...... you can get rid of the extra stuff on your post if you change your settings to Plain Text  instead of MIME





>This is a multi-part message in MIME format..

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5..C921CDA0

>Content-Type: text/plain;

> charset="iso-8859-1"

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

>Help please anyone who has info on brass or copper piping to tubing.. I =

>am making garden stick and would like to know where to get them at a =

>good price..

>

>On another note My personal favorite bumper sticker is=20

>

>Give blood

>become a stained glass artist

>

>cathie

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5..C921CDA0

>Content-Type: text/html;

> charset="iso-8859-1"

>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">

><HTML>

><HEAD>

>

><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =

>http-equiv=3DContent-Type>

><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4..72..3110..7"' name=3DGENERATOR>

></HEAD>

><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>

><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Help please anyone who has info on =

>brass or=20

>copper piping to tubing.. I am making garden stick and would like to know =

>where=20

>to get them at a good price..</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2>On another note My personal favorite bumper sticker =

>is=20

></FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2>Give blood</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2>become a stained glass artist</FONT></DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>

><DIV><FONT size=3D2>cathie</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

>

>------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BE52D5..C921CDA0--

>

>----

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>Archives available at http://www..bungi..com/glass

>



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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 21:17:56 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG E and food stuff
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:11:46 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb7.161146.0>
Precedence: bulk

Elisabeth...

While in the States (probably Fla)  Keep an eye out for a krispy kreme
shop.  Make whoever is driving you stop immediately and go in and try
the best donut of your life.  

Those were my favorite part of growing up in Georgia.  Havent been
available anywhere else I have lived. :o(  Oh yeah, and some boiled
peanuts.  Yuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmm!

 Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 21:36:44 1999
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X-Path: ior.com!glshorse
From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: MD6868@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:01:36 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.12136.0>
References: <<1999Feb8.24131.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

MD6868@aol.com wrote:
> 
>  Having spent the
> first 35yrs on the East coast and the last 15 in California, I've learned that
> the same food item in two different areas might be completely different.
> 

as in Chinese food. The inland Northwest version of "chinese food" is
NOTHING like the Boston version of Chinese food. Lets just say that chun
king out of a can is looking mighty good these days.......I never saw so
much garbage pretending to be chinese.....
>
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 21:49:41 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: to the glass and grub club
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:19:21 -0800
Message-ID: <199902080419.UAA16623@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

I think we should change our name from glass@ bungi to the above.  I've
learned not to read my email when I'm hungry (except for the anchovey
thing...yetch...I'm with Toby on that one.  I'd call him a dog with taste,
except for the hairy Irish mutton leg thing.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <MD6868@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:48:40 -0800
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AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THe bread here WEST COAST....OREGON is nothing like the bread back east.
NEVER had pizza (east coast) server with *&^%$&*&*PINEAPPLE!
Back east THIN crust and the oil dripped down you arm!

ON AND ON!    one redeeming thing here Dungeness crab, beat the heck out the
mini-crabs on the east coast. No stripped bass, but steelhead aint bad!
My monitor is POOFED and it is like looking at a ploar bear in a snow
storm........new meaning to "touch" typing
later, H

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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 22:00:47 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>, <GlsWorks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Craft Show Listing
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:05:53 -0500
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I found this one but there is another even better, I'll keep looking.

http://www.artandcraftshows.net/

Karen



>Does anyone know the web site that lists craft shows by state?  I recall
>seeing this site and can't find the address.
>----
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>


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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 22:13:33 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: <GlsWorks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Craft Show Listing
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:14:44 -0500
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Found another one, didn't have time to check out the different links at
it.

http://www.craftsfaironline.com/Listings.html

Karen
Think Spring!


>Does anyone know the web site that lists craft shows by state?  I recall
>seeing this site and can't find the address.
>----
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From owner-glass Sun Feb  7 23:09:41 1999
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Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 00:15:37 -0600
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http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Park/1644/

There isnt much there...but if your in Pa....lot more than in Ok.
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 00:01:11 1999
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Subject: RE:  Garden Sticks
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:39:08 -0500
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Brian,
You can get brass welding rods at a weld shop. Come in different widths
and lengths.

Karen


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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 02:08:51 1999
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Brian,
You can get brass welding rods at a weld shop. Come in different widths
and lengths.

Karen


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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
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Subject: Re: ENUF ALREADY!
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:27:30 -0800
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Organization: Maiden Concepts
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Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> Hey Howard,
> The shrimp and razor back clams aren't bad either.
> Shirley B 15 miles up the road.
> 
> Howard wrote:
> >
> > AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> > THe bread here WEST COAST....OREGON is nothing like the bread back east.
> > NEVER had pizza (east coast) server with *&^%$&*&*PINEAPPLE!
> > Back east THIN crust and the oil dripped down you arm!
> >
> > ON AND ON!    one redeeming thing here Dungeness crab, beat the heck out the
> > mini-crabs on the east coast. No stripped bass, but steelhead aint bad!
> > My monitor is POOFED and it is like looking at a ploar bear in a snow
> > storm........new meaning to "touch" typing
> > later, H

-- 
x�>"3
�
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 04:44:05 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Slogan
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:39:56 -0500
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Okay, heres my input.....

"Lead, follow, or get the h*ll out of the way!"

But then my personal motto is one from Rear Admiral Grace Hopper, "It is easier to ask forgiveness that it is to get permission."

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 05:45:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Craft Show Listing
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:40:58 -0600
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try 222.craftsfaironline.com
-----Original Message-----
From: GlsWorks@aol.com <GlsWorks@aol.com>
To: Glass@bungi.com <Glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 10:38 PM
Subject: Craft Show Listing


>Does anyone know the web site that lists craft shows by state?  I recall
>seeing this site and can't find the address.
>----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 06:09:42 1999
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From: Daniel Overbay <dro@teleport.com>
To: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
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Subject: Re: Slogan
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 05:04:14 -0800
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Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Okay, heres my input.....
> 
> "Lead, follow, or get the h*ll out of the way!"
===========================================



that's good how about 

"lead, foil, or get the hell out of the way!"


Daniel
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 06:47:00 1999
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Subject: Dale Chihuly Billboards
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:44:20 -0500
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Our local newspaper has prepared a slide show of the billboards announcing the upcoming Dale Chihuly exhibit. See it at:

http://www.pilotonline.com/

linda
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 07:47:06 1999
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Subject: Re: Craft Show Listing
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:39:47 -0500
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GlsWorks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know the web site that lists craft shows by state?  I recall
> seeing this site and can't find the address.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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http://www.artandcraftshows.net/

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 08:05:02 1999
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To: "'GLASS@BUNGI.COM'" <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
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Subject: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:11:23 -0500
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I just put a new bit on my grinder (Diamond Max) and it is chipping glass 
on the bottom side, even with the slightest touch. I thought maybe I was 
trying to use the area too close th the edge of the bit so I moved it down 
some. It is still chipping the under side of my glass. I don't remember 
this happening when it was new. Anyone have suggestions?

Thanks,

LInda Campbell
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 08:48:48 1999
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From: "Daniel M. German" <dmg@csg.uwaterloo.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: molds
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:41:47 -0500
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Hi Jane,

If the mold is semi-spherical you have three options:


1. Get a woodworker to use a lathe to make you the mold. 

And the do-it-yourselfer:

1. Find a Styrofoam half-sphere. I was able to find 13" in diameter.

2. Find a book on drafting for engineering. In the section solids,
   find spheres. there are two ways to make a sphere: with gores and
   with concentrical cones. Both are relatively easy. Then assemble
   one with strong cardboard. This is essentially the way that
   spherical tanks are build out of metal sheet for engineering
   purposes.


bareFoot


--
Daniel M. German                  "Technology now more often
                                   arouses apocalyptic ecstasies
                                   or visions of the kingdom of God
   Jacques Ellul ->                than rational reflection"
http://csgwww.uwaterloo.ca/~dmg/home.html
dmg@csg.uwaterloo.ca

 
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 09:51:52 1999
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Subject: Re: art fair jurying
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>
>Shirley,
>Loved what you had to say!!
>Great stuff.
>Cindy
>

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 10:16:42 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:14:41 -0500
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Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> I just put a new bit on my grinder (Diamond Max) and it is chipping glass
> on the bottom side, even with the slightest touch. I thought maybe I was
> trying to use the area too close th the edge of the bit so I moved it down
> some. It is still chipping the under side of my glass. I don't remember
> this happening when it was new. Anyone have suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> LInda Campbell
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it's a new bit it happens. let it wear a little and it should'nt chip as
much. the glass may be too soft. or the bit is'nt a fine bit. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 10:55:13 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:36:53 -0500
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Message text written by Shirley Balloch
>Did I leave anything out group or did this come across too harsh?<

Yep, did come across as harsh.  You actually insulted the
lady who did the original post.  Must have hit a sore spot.
I didn't read her post as being as insulting to artists/craftspeople.

And I beg to differ on some of your points.  I view jurying as
a process whereby the show organizers can establish a
general "feel" for the show, and eliminate obvious crafts &
artworks which do not fit that "feel".  For instance, the one
in which I am active right now is attempting to establish a
new Contemporary Fine Arts & Crafts show in a location
which has traditionally only had country crafts.  So the object
of our jurying is to weed out the country crafts in favor
of more contemporary art & crafts.  The village has 3 other
shows which feature country crafts, so we are trying to keep
this one strictly contemporary.

Also, I beg to differ with you about sloppiness being the
hallmark of a young crafter.  When jurying by slides, age,
race, gender and social background of the artist is not
known to the juror.  The major criteria we are looking for
is 1) contemporary style  2) excellence of craftsmanship
(since our target audience is sophistocated)  3) variety
of styles  4) variety of media.  I'm sure other shows will have
different jurying criteria, but these are ours.  This lets in
amatures as well as professionals, as long as they meet
our vision.

I do like the idea of inviting some crafters/artists back
the following year, waiving the jurying process.  This is
frequently done, particularly to winners in each media
category.  We will do the same, but this is our first year
so everyone has to be juried.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 11:35:42 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:36:50 -0500
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Message text written by Carol Swann
>Or have each artist submit an
actual piece for review.  That's quite common. Or allow state of the art
submissions...video or digital.<

Hi Carol.  Thanks for the input, but I beg to differ on our
opions here.  I have only once submitted acutal pieces
for a show, and vowed to never do that again.  For one
thing, it is difficult enough to transport my stained glass
pieces to/from a show, much less expose them to an
additional transport to/from jurying, and not knowing who
would be handling the artwork, and how careful they =

might/might not be with my work.  What happens if they
break it during jurying?

Invariably the actual pieces are not properly lighted for glass,
particularly in an open media show.  So I prefer to handle
my own lighting of my own artwork, and photograph them
in both slide & print film.  I always take several shots of
the same subject, bracketing them as per photographing
crafts (particularly glass) in the Steve Metzer book "Pho-
tographing Crafts".  This way I not only have my print
portfolio, but I also have a slide portfolio.  Whenever I need
to submit slides for jurying, I bring out the slide portfolio
and select my best shots.  I photograph subjects as they
are completed, and always take camera & tripod to each
installation, so as to not inconvenience my clients more
than necessary.

Jurying by slides is still the accepted medium.  And in
my show, the judges are being asked to judge artwork
using a common denominator - slides.  This way all
artists are at least given the same playing field to start.
It makes it a hardship on the judges to be asked to
judge all different kinds of media based on a variety
of stuff like prints, slides, drawings, and actual artwork.
So, we prefer to just use slides.

Maybe someday video and digital will be a standard
method of jurying pieces, but not right now.

Anyway...my $.02 worth.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 11:36:19 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG glass & grub, was ENUF ALREADY
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:32:35 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.173235.0>
Precedence: bulk


Also sprach Howard:

>THe bread here WEST COAST....OREGON is nothing like the bread back east.

Maybe not in Oregon, but nothing, and I do mean *nothing*, in the bread
department on either end of the country compares to real San Francisco
sourdough, extra sour, fresh from the oven!

First runner-up: the flour tortillas my best friend's mom used to make when I
was in grade school......... we'd eat them hot off the griddle until we were
stuffed.


Sparks, trying to fight off a bad set of cravings :-(
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 16:18:37 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:36:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.23613.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>I just put a new bit on my grinder (Diamond Max) and it is chipping glass
on the bottom side, even with the slightest touch. I thought maybe I was
trying to use the area too close th the edge of the bit so I moved it down
some. It is still chipping the under side of my glass. I don't remember
this happening when it was new. Anyone have suggestions?

Thanks,

LInda Campbel<<l

My first thought was that the head was to high but you have eliminated that
as a cause of your chipping.

New heads may need a period of run in before they work best. Try gringing
for about five minutes with a piece of thick, like 1/4", glass for about
five minutes. If that does not cure the problem then return the head for a
replacement/refund.

Also inspect the head to make sure it is not out of round by a slight
degree. Uneven wear around the used area is a sign of excentricity. Reject
such a bit as if will have a short life.

When you think of the low price of these diamond bits it becomes clear that
not a great deal of guality control is allowed for.

Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 16:18:48 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:16:46 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.181646.0>
References: <<1999Feb7.75329.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Hello folks!

I have just come back from adjudicating an award for mid-course glass
students on a degree course for the Scottish Glass Society.  So these
are the considerations we have in our minds when judging for the
award(s)

First - have in mind the objectives of the event/award/etc.
Second - get some background on the entrants (supplied by them, of
course)
Third - actual viewing - three parts
        A - originality -  e.g., of subject, type of work, use of
material
        B - technique - e.g., technical quality, finish, attention to
detail
        C - overall reaction - i.e. personal impression
These three are marked out of 10, or 5 or what ever range is desirable,
but all judges must use the same range, so 10 is what SGS uses.

Fourth - add up the scores and rank in order up to the number of
awards/entries, etc.

Fifth - compare with other judges.  All those which did not make it onto
the top on anyone's list are eliminated.  Alternatively, stages 4 & 5
can be combined, so that any entries which make it over some score are
accepted, whether that is a score predetermined or based on a
distribution curve ( e.g. any entry making it over 60% (or any other
level determined after the scoring) of the combined judges scores would
be accepted)

Sixth - confer with other judges on the borderline cases (either top or
bottom, or marginal)

Anyway that's the way we judged a number of works today and awarded a
100 UK pounds prize to a student.  It wasn't easy, as we quickly got
down to 4, and 5 minutes later to 3.  Another 15 minutes got us down to
2.  But it was another hour before we selected the winner.  It was all
amicable, but strong views had to be reconciled.

Steve



In message <1999Feb7.75329.0@?>, Christie A. Wood
<Ensembles@compuserve.com> writes
>Message text written by "Molly Keys"
>>So put your thinking caps on and think of how you would like shows to be=
> =3D
>juried.  What should the jurors be looking for?<
>
>Hi there Molly.  I also am a juror for a Fine Arts & Crafts Festival.  We=
>
>judge
>by slides also.  Five slides representing the artist's style are required=
>. =
>
>We
>look for originality of style - i.e. not just the same old patterns anyon=
>e
>can
>purchase and build.  Consistency of vision throughout the 5 slides.
>Technical ability (i.e. good soldering, good designs for the glass, glass=
>
>selection which is appropriate to the subject matter, etc.).  Since this =
>is
>a
>fine arts festival, we are also interested in ideas which expand the medi=
>um
>in some way.  New and interesting ways of using the glass.
>
>Christie A. Wood
>Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
>P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
>http://www.igga.org/wood/
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 16:19:00 1999
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X-Path: city-net.com!dany
From: "Daniela Birkelbach" <dany@city-net.com>
To: <MD6868@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG German anyone?
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:32:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.103224.0>
Precedence: bulk


Tranlsations are always tough when trying to convey the same meaning with
the same sound.

Here is what I would say:  Liebst Du ihn?  F=E4hrst Du ihn?, Ginny's neue=
r
K=E4fer .  But it doesn't have the same ring.  Maybe Lieb' ihn - fahr' ih=
n!

Beetles are great  - I had an old 69 beetle and loved him!!

There are some other Germans on this list maybe they can respond as well.

Viel Spass mit dem Fahrvergn=FCgen!!!!!


Dany
>-----Original Message-----
>From: MD6868@aol.com <MD6868@aol.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Sunday, February 07, 1999 11:03 PM
>Subject: NG German anyone?
>
>
>> Since we are such a diverse and multi - talented group (can't you tell=
 I
>want
>>something ?) I thought someone could help with a German translation.
>>
>>As confirmed boomers, my wife and I just fell in love with the new
>Volkswagen
>>Beetle, and so, I was fortunate enough to get one for her recently. We =
had
>>numerous bugs over the years, and even had a new one in 1967, which cos=
t
>>exactly 1/10th of what the new one did. We just love the car, and have =
a
>rear
>>license plate frame slogan that takes after a VW ad which says " Hug it=
 ?
>>Drive it? on the top, and on the bottom says "Ginny's New Beetle. Even
>though
>>the new one is assembled in Mexico, all the mechanicals are German, and=
 we
>>thought it would be fun to replicate this on a front plate frame, it
>>German.... Can anyone tell me how to say "Hug it ? Drive it ?, and
>>" Ginny's (short for Virginia) New Beetle?? I think the word for beetle=
 is
>>Kafer, but I'm not sure.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Richard
>>Glassics Artglass
>>MD6868@aol'com
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>

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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:54:38 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.45438.0>
References: <<1999Feb8.73650.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I agree, taking the product to be juried is a pain.  But the only one
that I ever did this for, was like an open cattle call(actor's term).
We all came with our product at the same time.  Were given a table and
an amount of time to set up a display. Then the judges walked around and
juried by a point system.  The display with the most points was invited
to the show.
Seemed very fair to me.  Being new to this, I appreciated the points I
got from observing and speaking to the other artists.  And the only one
that handled my product was me.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 16:48:00 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: molds
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:18:22 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.111822.0>
References: <<199902081541.KAA15135@violeta.dmg>>
Precedence: bulk

Over the weekend I was exploring some of the sites listed on the Bungi
home page and found a reference to mold making which sounded interesting.
The site was Tashiro Stained and Leaded Glass / Technical room / page 2.

http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/html-data/tpage2.html

Gives a detailed description (with links to pictures) of the method.

He uses balsa wood to build up the mold.  I figured you could also use
sheets of styrofoam instead of balsa wood.

What do y'all think?

Jim

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 17:46:44 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: NG glass & grub, was ENUF ALREADY
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:30:47 EST
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In a message dated 2/8/99 11:36:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, Witchdoc3@aol.com
writes:

<< department on either end of the country compares to real San Francisco
 sourdough, extra sour, fresh from the oven! >>

I live in the bay area and agree with you that sourdough is very good...
but having had fresh Italian bread in Boston (the big twisted loaves with
sesame seeds on top), I must say it's a tie.





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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 17:57:19 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: I have a bee in my bonnet.
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:37:09 EST
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In a message dated 2/8/99 1:55:41 PM Pacific Standard Time,
balloch@netbridge.net writes:

<< My best search was in excite by searching art"anamorphic" >>

adapting a pattern from Escher would also represent an interesting
stained glass challenge, it would probably be quite unique.
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 18:09:13 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Stone info
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:08:12 -0600
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I sent out the way I do stones.  If I missed anyone that requested it,
let me know, and I will send it to you.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 18:50:25 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Linda Campbell" <lcbell@memach.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:59:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.155959.0>
Precedence: bulk

It's unusual for the bit to chip the glass only on the bottom.  [I assume
that the glass is chipping on the underside of the piece]  A fast bit may
chip the full edge when new.  The only possible reason that I can see for
the problem is that your grinding table isn't flat.  That would tilt the
glass exposing the lower edge....You might remove the bit and lay a straight
edge across the table to see if it is even across.

Hope this helps...

Arnold
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: 'GLASS@BUNGI.COM' <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 11:20 AM
Subject: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass


>I just put a new bit on my grinder (Diamond Max) and it is chipping glass
>on the bottom side, even with the slightest touch. I thought maybe I was
>trying to use the area too close th the edge of the bit so I moved it down
>some. It is still chipping the under side of my glass. I don't remember
>this happening when it was new. Anyone have suggestions?
>
>Thanks,
>
>LInda Campbell
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 19:50:47 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG.....excentricity???
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:33:42 -0800
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>>Bob,

Can you define "excentricity" for those of us who skipped most of our
high school english classes.  <bg>  At first I tought it was a
typographical error.

Thanks,
Karen
Think Spring!<<

High school might not have helped. Centric is in the dictionary and means
having a center or many centers. Centricity is a sub word and means having
surface markings centrally arranged. The ex part= no longer.

Think I am now confused and will substitute the phrase, "out of round" in
reference to the grinding head that insists in chipping glass.

Bob
Grass is green here and the first California poppies are up.

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 20:00:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: molds
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:44:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.164458.0>
Precedence: bulk

I didn't know bungi *had a home page!  Where is it?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From owner-glass Mon Feb  8 20:19:13 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: NG.....excentricity???
Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:25:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb8.172532.0>
Precedence: bulk


Bob,

Okay, now I get it.  What we would call  "lop-sided" in layman talk.

Karen
Grass is pale and mushy here and has several snowplow divets in it.
Maybe if I looked hard I could find the tip of a crocus or
daffadil......Nah!



>Bob wrote:
<big snip>

>Think I am now confused and will substitute the phrase, "out of round"
in
>reference to the grinding head that insists in chipping glass.
>
>Bob
>Grass is green here and the first California poppies are up.
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
>


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 04:58:23 1999
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From: "Alex Gacic" <agacic@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Follow up to, to buy or not
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 03:53:19 PST
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.115319.0>
Precedence: bulk


Hi, everyone

Thanks for all the advice and info on buying out a glass business.

One thing I would like to add.  All of his sidelite, door and panel work 
was done using  copper foil.  He claimed that he developed and gets 
royalities from the black adhesive thats being  used on foil.  Probably 
not much judging from his surroundings.

He said he never uses lead came. What he does is use wider foil maybe 
1/4" or wider, then twists two lines of solder together, and then uses 
his big 300w iron to solder the joints. The tip on that iron is about 
3/4" wide.  I've seen some of his work, the joints looked good.  He also 
claims doing it this way prevents any sagging.  I would think that would 
be pretty weather tight too.

Thanks again
Alex Gacic
(looking for funds or a government grant)





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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 05:04:15 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Bob E Duchesneau'" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: NG.....excentricity???
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:01:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.2118.0>
Precedence: bulk

The word you search for is ECCENTRITITY, pronounced "eks..."

It means having different centers, which would be out of round. Here in the 
ship repair business it refers to the difference in feet between the 
centerline of keel blocks and the center of gravity of a ship's weight. We 
pronounce it (maybe incorrectly) e-sen-tri-city. Help us to determine the 
loading at each point along the line of blocks a ship is docked on.

I've had some good input into why my bit is chipping the glass. I suspect 
the answer is that the table may not be sitting perpendicular to the bit. I 
will check it out later this week and report my findings. Thanks to all.

Linda


Can you define "excentricity" for those of us who skipped most of our
high school english classes.  <bg>  At first I tought it was a
typographical error.

Thanks,
Karen
Think Spring!<<


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 05:17:29 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Suzanne'" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Stone info
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:04:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.2419.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanyou Suxanne, 

Very good details. I have printed it out for my files and plan to make a splash block this weekend. 

Linda


I sent out the way I do stones.  If I missed anyone that requested it,
let me know, and I will send it to you.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 05:37:56 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Cold....
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:11:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.21117.0>
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There is frost on my windows and cold as heck here!

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 05:57:03 1999
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X-Path: city-net.com!dany
From: "Daniela Birkelbach" <dany@city-net.com>
To: <MD6868@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: NG German anyone?
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:04:50 -0500
Message-ID: <199902091249.HAA17977@dns.city-net.com>
Precedence: bulk

Sorry, the =E4 is the a umlaut (ae),
the =FC is the u umlaut (ue)

> 
> Here is what I would say:  Liebst Du ihn?  F=E4hrst Du ihn?, Ginny's
neue=
> r
> K=E4fer .  But it doesn't have the same ring.  Maybe Lieb' ihn - fahr'
ih=
> n!
> 
> Beetles are great  - I had an old 69 beetle and loved him!!
> 
> There are some other Germans on this list maybe they can respond as well.
> 
> Viel Spass mit dem Fahrvergn=FCgen!!!!!
> 

Dany
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 06:58:53 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: cold in Va Laura
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:01:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.416.0>
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That sounds just about like us here except for the snow...we had cold rain
Sunday....only 30 degrees here this upcoming weekend ,too. Wishing for
springtime,Abbie.

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 07:05:46 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: molds
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:13:51 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.41351.0>
References: <<1999Feb8.164458.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Surely you jest.  It's in the footer added to every message.

 http://www.bungi.com/glass

Check it out, links to other SG sites and the entire archive of the group.

Jim

On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Dani Greer wrote:

> I didn't know bungi *had a home page!  Where is it?
> 

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 07:38:08 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Follow up to, to buy or not
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:35:23 -0500
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2/9/99 6:53 AM Alex Gacic agacic@hotmail.com

>One thing I would like to add.  All of his sidelite, door and panel work 
>was done using  copper foil.  He claimed that he developed and gets 
>royalities from the black adhesive thats being  used on foil.  Probably 
>not much judging from his surroundings.
>
>He said he never uses lead came. What he does is use wider foil maybe 
>1/4" or wider, then twists two lines of solder together, and then uses 
>his big 300w iron to solder the joints. The tip on that iron is about 
>3/4" wide.  I've seen some of his work, the joints looked good.  He also 
>claims doing it this way prevents any sagging.  I would think that would 
>be pretty weather tight too.
>
>Thanks again
>Alex Gacic
>(looking for funds or a government grant)

Alex,

Thanks for sharing that with us. Very interesting!
Sorry I don't have any funds or grants.
Suzanne

>
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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>
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 08:00:23 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Evelyn C Mason <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Cold....
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:01:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.1145.0>
References: <<1999Feb9.21117.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Were are you??
I'm in Indiana and the sun is shinning and it's suppose to get up to 50
today and 65 tomorrow but then Fri and week-end it's going to be in the
30's and last Sunday (3) days ago it was snowing.... thant's good old
Indiana weather for you!!!
Laura

Evelyn C Mason wrote:

> There is frost on my windows and cold as heck here!
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 08:05:23 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG...interesting test
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:51:57 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.25157.0>
Precedence: bulk

See how intelligent you really are!!

A quick test of intelligence.
Don't cheat! Because if you did, the test would be no fun.
I promise, there are no tricks to this test.

Read this sentence:

FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-
SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-
IC STUDY COMBINED WITH
THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS.

Now count aloud the F's in that sentence.
Count them ONLY ONCE!! Don't go back, that's cheating!

See Answers Below.......



ANSWER:  There are six F's in the sentence.
One of average intelligence finds three of them.
If you spotted four, you are above average.
If you got five, you can turn your nose at most anybody.
If you caught six, you are a genius.
There is no catch.  Many people forget the "OF"'s.
The human brain tends to see them as V's and not F's.

Pretty weird, huh?
It fools almost everybody.
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 10:01:17 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Any info on courses in New Delhi India?
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:34:58 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.163458.0>
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Hello all, I have been contacted by an architect in New Delhi who wants to
start learning how to work in stained glass.
Do any bungians in that part of the country know of any formal courses
available I can direct him to? Or failing that any suggestions of studios
where he may be able to learn?
Regards
EliZabeth
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 10:11:55 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Teaching and Liability
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 08:51:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.05110.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Does anyone require their students to sign a waiver of liability. I am
gathering all of my pre-reg forms together and wondered if this might be
a good document to include. More of a take this class at your own risk
type of form I suppose I should have said.

Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of getting that one
person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to pay or worse
yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am I being to
paranoid?

Thanks,

Pam

--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 20:16:56 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:42:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.94218.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by INTERNET:balloch@netbridge.net
>We all came with our product at the same time.  Were given a table and
an amount of time to set up a display. Then the judges walked around and
juried by a point system.  The display with the most points was invited
to the show.<

Yuck.  I wouldn't have gone to this sort of "cattle call".  It takes me
at least 3 hours to set up my 10'x8' booth and get it loaded up =

and ready for a retail art fair show...5 hours if it's for a wholesale
show.  No way would I do that without first going through a jurying
process.  Wastes too much of my time.

This sounds OK for church-type craft shows where you are
all using 6' long tables for displays.  But not for professional
shows.  Certainly not for fine art fairs.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 20:29:22 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: NG.....excentricity???
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:01:29 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.10129.0>
Precedence: bulk

Grass is green and our California poppies are coming up,too... and I live=

in Colorado!! ;-)

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 20:31:48 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:31:52 +0000
Message-ID: <199902091925.OAA17953@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of getting that one
> person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to pay or worse
> yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am I being to
> paranoid?

No, you're just being businesslike. Have your attorney draw up a 
simple form for students to use, waiving their rights to sue. It 
won't guarantee you won't be sued, but they will have been informed 
of their responsibility to look after themselves and to follow the 
safety precautions you tell them, making it much more difficult for 
them to hassle you with lawsuits. Of course, you'll have to be sure 
to tell them about any hazards, advise them to take whatever 
precautions are necessary, etc. Anyone who's lawsuit-happy won't sign 
it, which will be a clue to their motivations. I suspect everyone 
will do so.

Then it'll be up to you to be sure you carefully file those signed 
bits of paper away just in case someone *does make a claim. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 20:44:31 1999
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X-Path: hbci.com!RMYNG98
From: "Ron Young" <RMYNG98@hbci.com>
To: "Dana at home" <marcogt@ecol.net>, <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG...interesting test
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:30:28 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.93028.0>
Precedence: bulk


-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 08, 1999 6:00 PM
Subject: NG...interesting test


>See how intelligent you really are!!
>
>A quick test of intelligence.
>Don't cheat! Because if you did, the test would be no fun.
>I promise, there are no tricks to this test.
>
>Read this sentence:
>
>FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-
>SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-
>IC STUDY COMBINED WITH
>THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS.
>
>Now count aloud the F's in that sentence.
>Count them ONLY ONCE!! Don't go back, that's cheating!
>
>See Answers Below.......
>
>
>
>ANSWER:  There are six F's in the sentence.
>One of average intelligence finds three of them.
>If you spotted four, you are above average.
>If you got five, you can turn your nose at most anybody.
>If you caught six, you are a genius.
>There is no catch.  Many people forget the "OF"'s.
>The human brain tends to see them as V's and not F's.
>
>Pretty weird, huh?
>It fools almost everybody.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 20:58:02 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!juliam
From: "Julia Moseley" <juliam@mindspring.com>
To: "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:11:03 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.12113.0>
Precedence: bulk

Pam,

When I took my first stained glass class, I signed a form waiving the
teacher's and the store's responsibility for any injuries. That seems fair
enough to me; ten or twelve novices with 100 watt irons waving around can be
a bit of a hazard. :-)

Julia Moseley
Kirkland, Washington
-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 8:49 AM
Subject: Teaching and Liability


>Hi all,
>
>Does anyone require their students to sign a waiver of liability. I am
>gathering all of my pre-reg forms together and wondered if this might be
>a good document to include. More of a take this class at your own risk
>type of form I suppose I should have said.
>
>Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of getting that one
>person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to pay or worse
>yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am I being to
>paranoid?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pam
>
>--
>*********************************
>
>Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Executive Director
>The Stained Glass Artists
>http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
>
>Moswood Mountain Limited
>http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
>http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 21:19:19 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:45:31 -0500
Message-ID: <199902092146.QAA24107@smtp.america.net>
Precedence: bulk

I was out today and came across a overhead projector, the man bought from
the local college.  I didn't get the name of it but it is thing where you
put your something down on it and it projects on a wall or screen or what
have you.   He said he would sell me one for $55.00   Is that a good price?
I thought if it was a decent price I would use it to transfer or enlarge a
patterns.  Anyone have any input??
Thanks,
Linda Jo


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 21:31:06 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: art fair jurying
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:42:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.9428.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Carol Swann
>It must be nice to be able to afford 2 camera bodies. <

I can't afford 2 camera bodies either.  I have one camera
with tripod and remote release, and 2 photographer's
spot lights.  I load up the camera with one set of slide
film, shoot, reload with print film, shoot same subjects.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 21:39:00 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NEw Grinder Bit is Chipping Glass
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 99 18:10:06 
Message-ID: <199902100110.SAA26592@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

it's probably too rough a grind... get a fine..

Candy

On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:36:13 -0800, Bob E Duchesneau wrote:

>>>I just put a new bit on my grinder (Diamond Max) and it is chipping glass
>on the bottom side, even with the slightest touch. I thought maybe I was
>trying to use the area too close th the edge of the bit so I moved it down
>some. It is still chipping the under side of my glass. I don't remember
>this happening when it was new. Anyone have suggestions?


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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 21:52:12 1999
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X-Path: eatumup.com!byronwells
From: byronwells@eatumup.com (Byron Wells)
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Abrasive Blasting Pricing
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:31:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.163140.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hey all....

I'm trying to expand a bit and was wondering if there are any pricing
formulas yall use for abrasive blast etching work?? I dont want to be to
high and scare people off and at the same time I dont want to be to low and
make nothing either... I realize that just as with panel work the more
detailed the work is the longer it takes and the price needs to climb
accordingly... I'd just like a starting point is all....Thats what I did
with panel work and have gradually gotten my prices where they need to be...

Thanks
Byron
Wells Glassworks

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 21:59:07 1999
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From: byronwells@eatumup.com (Byron Wells)
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:25:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.162552.0>
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Hi Pam....

I would definitely include that in your forms.. Wont cost but a few cents a
copy... With all the ambulance chasers out there you cant be to careful...
Just never know when someone is looking for an easy score.... We like to
believe the best of folks but unfortuneately there are always a few rotten
apples...I had to sign a similar form for karate a few years back and have
signed them for other things... It's just covering yer own behind..

Byron...
Wells Glassworks

-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 6:19 AM
Subject: Teaching and Liability


>Hi all,
>
>Does anyone require their students to sign a waiver of liability. I am
>gathering all of my pre-reg forms together and wondered if this might be
>a good document to include. More of a take this class at your own risk
>type of form I suppose I should have said.
>
>Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of getting that one
>person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to pay or worse
>yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am I being to
>paranoid?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pam
>
>--
>*********************************
>
>Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Executive Director
>The Stained Glass Artists
>http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
>
>Moswood Mountain Limited
>http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
>http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 22:07:08 1999
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From: byronwells@eatumup.com (Byron Wells)
To: "Suzanne" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Printer review
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:50:42 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.165042.0>
Precedence: bulk

I've been looking for a larger printer to use with Glass Eye and such...
Since most of my panels are sidelights,transoms,cabinet doors etc I wanted
to be able to print them out on fewer sheets of paper..

I've been looking for several months at HPs and Epsons wider printers(they
will accept up to 11x17 paper) but have been put off by the $500 price tag
on them...The other day I was in Best Buy and they had a new Canon BJC-5000
for $199.... I tried the demo deal on it and it printed great on plain
paper. I figgured for 199 it was worth a shot...I brought it home and it
works great... Even does near photo quality with the optional cartridge...

I can now do a quicky full size printout for my customers without so much
taping together...

Anyway if anyone has been looking for a larger printer without having to get
a 2nd mortgage on the house ya cant beat this one...

Byron...
Wells Glassworks

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 22:45:34 1999
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X-Path: ticnet.com!rjlcon
From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:55:41 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.175541.0>
Precedence: bulk

Linda, If it works well with no problems I'd go for it. I bought an
artascope (I think thats what it's called) several years ago and I believe I
payed 98.00 for it then new.  If this projector looks like the professional
ones you place on a desk  that has a glass surface for 8 x 11 inch pages,
new it could run in the hundreds.  Just take something like a pattern or
photo to try on it to  check it out and see if it will do what you need it
to. For the ones I remember you had to use transparencies for it to creat
the image on the screen. But if all is well and you like what you see, I'd
grab it............Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Linda Letscher <andor@fair.net>
To: bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:26 PM
Subject: Price for Overhead projector


>I was out today and came across a overhead projector, the man bought from
>the local college.  I didn't get the name of it but it is thing where you
>put your something down on it and it projects on a wall or screen or what
>have you.   He said he would sell me one for $55.00   Is that a good price?
>I thought if it was a decent price I would use it to transfer or enlarge a
>patterns.  Anyone have any input??
>Thanks,
>Linda Jo
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 23:00:59 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: NG...interesting test
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:23:01 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.22231.0>
References: <<1999Feb9.25157.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Not an intelligence test!!!
It tests observation.
A child would do better for the reasons you outlined about the
prepositions.

In message <1999Feb9.25157.0@?>, Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com> writes
>See how intelligent you really are!!
>
>A quick test of intelligence.
>Don't cheat! Because if you did, the test would be no fun.
>I promise, there are no tricks to this test.
>
>Read this sentence:
>
>FINISHED FILES ARE THE RE-
>SULT OF YEARS OF SCIENTIF-
>IC STUDY COMBINED WITH
>THE EXPERIENCE OF YEARS.
>
>Now count aloud the F's in that sentence.
>Count them ONLY ONCE!! Don't go back, that's cheating!
>
>See Answers Below.......
>
>
>
>ANSWER:  There are six F's in the sentence.
>One of average intelligence finds three of them.
>If you spotted four, you are above average.
>If you got five, you can turn your nose at most anybody.
>If you caught six, you are a genius.
>There is no catch.  Many people forget the "OF"'s.
>The human brain tends to see them as V's and not F's.
>
>Pretty weird, huh?
>It fools almost everybody.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Feb  9 23:44:06 1999
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X-Path: earthlink.net!emilie
From: Emilie Golding <emilie@earthlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: bottle glass
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:31:07 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.14317.0>
Precedence: bulk

I've been cutting up old bottles,  melting them into freeform shapes, and 
then wrapping them with wire.

The problem is I'm getting a lot of devitrification. To cover up the 
scummy part,  I've been sandblasting and tumbling the pieces (making them 
look like beach glass). 

Is there a way to fire bottle glass and get better results?  I can't seem 
to find the best combination of temperature and time.
----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 01:35:58 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Emilie Golding" <emilie@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: bottle glass
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:31:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.163122.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>The problem is I'm getting a lot of devitrification. To cover up the
scummy part,  I've been sandblasting and tumbling the pieces (making them
look like beach glass).

Is there a way to fire bottle glass and get better results?  I can't seem
to find the best combination of temperature and time.<<

Above 1100'F go as fast as your kiln will go to 1550'F and then flash vent
to below 1100'F. Go a bit higher or lower as necessary for the glass you are
using. The idea is to minimise the time the glass is exposed to high heat.
Going to a higher heat is prefferable to soaking at a lower heat to achieve
the same effect.

Also clean the glass well as surface impurities may lead to devitrification.

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 03:33:52 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Linda Letscher'" <andor@fair.net>, "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:14:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.11426.0>
Precedence: bulk

If it's a big heavy thing like the old school models, it is worth about 
$500 new. I bought one used about 20 years ago fdor $25 bucks. I've had to 
replace the bulb once. That was another $25 but it has been worth it. With 
the age of computers and scanners, I use it less but it's still a nice toy.

Linda Campbell

-----Original Message-----
From:	Linda Letscher [SMTP:andor@fair.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, February 09, 1999 4:46 PM
To:	bungi.com
Subject:	Price for Overhead projector

I was out today and came across a overhead projector, the man bought from
the local college.  I didn't get the name of it but it is thing where you
put your something down on it and it projects on a wall or screen or what
have you.   He said he would sell me one for $55.00   Is that a good price?
I thought if it was a decent price I would use it to transfer or enlarge a
patterns.  Anyone have any input??
Thanks,
Linda Jo


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 04:36:54 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!BMarhon
From: BMarhon@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:41:48 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.114148.0>
Precedence: bulk

You can buy transparencies at an office supply house and use them instead of
paper to photocopy whatever you want to put on the projector.
Brenda

<<  For the ones I remember you had to use transparencies for it to creat
 the image on the screen. >>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 07:47:47 1999
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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: BMarhon@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:25:47 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.22547.0>
References: <<1999Feb10.114148.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I also think that most all of the copy places will copy something for you onto a
transparency.  You can also load transparency paper into most printers if you're
designing something yourself (I've printed more than my share of presentations
onto transparencies at work!).  I've had an overhead projecter on my "things to
look for" at garage sales, flea markets, etc.  But just thought of another place
to look -- used office equipment (what with the popular use of Powerpoint and
computer LCD displays, I would think there would be a good supply of used
overhead projecters at those types of stores).

BMarhon@aol.com wrote:

> You can buy transparencies at an office supply house and use them instead of
> paper to photocopy whatever you want to put on the projector.
> Brenda
>
> <<  For the ones I remember you had to use transparencies for it to creat
>  the image on the screen. >>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 07:49:19 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Teaching and Liability
Date: Wed Feb 10 06:49:17 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.42717.0>
Precedence: bulk

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5502.BFC4CC56
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Pam

Based on what has happened to acquaintances, I would not only include the
waiver but would also include a list of basic safety requirement. You know
the ones: glass is sharp be careful; always use safety glasses with the
grinder; don't inhale the fumes from the solder ... The waiver should be
signed when they register for the class, it can actually be part of the
registration form.
Also make sure they get a copy of the safety rules. It should state that
they have gotten it in the waiver. 

You should also get certified in basic first aid. That little card can carry
a lot of weight in court when you have placed a Band-Aid on someone's
finger.  Bet you didn't know you could be sued for "miss-applying" a
Band-Aid.  

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 

Isn't it amazing how similar caution and paranoia have become?


		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Pamela Burns-Tappan [mailto:ptap@pacifier.com]
		Sent:	Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:51 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	Teaching and Liability

		Hi all,

		Does anyone require their students to sign a waiver of
liability. I am
		gathering all of my pre-reg forms together and wondered if
this might be
		a good document to include. More of a take this class at
your own risk
		type of form I suppose I should have said.

		Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of
getting that one
		person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to
pay or worse
		yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am
I being to
		paranoid?

		Thanks,

		Pam

		--
		*********************************

		Pamela Burns-Tappan
		Executive Director
		The Stained Glass Artists
		http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

		Moswood Mountain Limited
		http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
		http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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<TITLE>RE: Teaching and Liability</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Pam</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Based on what has happened to</FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">acquaintances,</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would not only =
include the waiver but would also include a list of basic safety =
requirement. You know the ones: glass is sharp be careful; always use =
safety glasses with the grinder; don't inhale the fumes from the solder =
... The waiver should be signed when they register for the class, it =
can actually be part of the registration form.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Also make sure they get a copy of the =
safety rules. It should state that they have gotten it in the waiver. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You should also get certified in basic =
first aid. That little card can carry a lot of weight in court when you =
have placed a Band-Aid on someone's finger.&nbsp; Bet you didn't know =
you could be sued for &quot;miss-applying&quot; a =
Band-Aid.&nbsp;</FONT> </P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><A HREF=3D"mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Isn't it amazing how similar caution =
and paranoia have become?</FONT>
</P>
<BR>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Pamela =
Burns-Tappan [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:ptap@pacifier.com">mailto:ptap@pacifier.com</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tuesday, February 09, 1999 11:51 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Teaching and Liability</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi all,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Does anyone require their students to =
sign a waiver of liability. I am</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">gathering all of my pre-reg forms =
together and wondered if this might be</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">a good document to include. More of a =
take this class at your own risk</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">type of form I suppose I should have =
said.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yes I plan on teaching glass safety =
but I'm afraid of getting that one</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">person who gets a glass cut, no =
insurance and wants me to pay or worse</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">yet, sues the heck out of me. Does =
this concern anyone or am I being to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">paranoid?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Pam</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">--</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">*********************************</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Pamela Burns-Tappan</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Executive Director</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The Stained Glass Artists</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists</A></FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Moswood Mountain Limited</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited</A></FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1</A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 08:06:47 1999
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X-Path: ticnet.com!rjlcon
From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Byron Wells" <byronwells@eatumup.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Abrasive Blasting Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:00:42 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.3042.0>
Precedence: bulk

Byron, Start with a square foot price. 20., 30, 40, what ever where you live
would handle comfortably. Measure your pattern height and width from edges
of the pattern drawing. Ad 2 inches both directions and use that for your
dimensions.  Add a certain percent for original artwork if it is....( make a
note somewhere that artwork is the property of artist and protect...you may
not have a copyright but it will scare some people off from copying your
work)  If you're surface blasting go with that price . If it's stage
blasting and carving add a certain percent for 1 to 3 stage and a different
percent for mulit-stage and complexity. If you need to find a rough starting
point in your area for sq.ft. call someone and play dumb. Tell tham you have
a cabinet door frame that you want etched glass in and how much it would
cost..............................Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Byron Wells <byronwells@eatumup.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 12:02 AM
Subject: Abrasive Blasting Pricing


>Hey all....
>
>I'm trying to expand a bit and was wondering if there are any pricing
>formulas yall use for abrasive blast etching work?? I dont want to be to
>high and scare people off and at the same time I dont want to be to low and
>make nothing either... I realize that just as with panel work the more
>detailed the work is the longer it takes and the price needs to climb
>accordingly... I'd just like a starting point is all....Thats what I did
>with panel work and have gradually gotten my prices where they need to
be...
>
>Thanks
>Byron
>Wells Glassworks
>
>----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 08:26:56 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Linda Letscher <andor@fair.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:08:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.5834.0>
References: <<199902092146.QAA24107@smtp.america.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Linda Letscher wrote:
> 
> I was out today and came across a overhead projector, the man bought from
> the local college.  I didn't get the name of it but it is thing where you
> put your something down on it and it projects on a wall or screen or what
> have you.   He said he would sell me one for $55.00   Is that a good price?
> I thought if it was a decent price I would use it to transfer or enlarge a
> patterns.  Anyone have any input??
> Thanks,
> Linda Jo
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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it sounds like an opaque projector which sells for about $100-$300. i
use it all the time when making my projects. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 08:47:08 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Evelyn C Mason <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Cold....
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:20:14 -0600
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Evelyn C Mason wrote:
> 
> There is frost on my windows and cold as heck here!

Supposed to be close to 80 here today, and 22 on Friday! :-/
I have spring fever after the last few warm days.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 09:13:43 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Linda Campbell'" <lcbell@memach.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Price for Overhead projectoR (OPPS)
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:05:07 -0500
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Linda Jo,

Sorry, I was thinking of an opaque projector. I have an overhead too but the bulb was much cheaper.

Linda

 
If it's a big heavy thing like the old school models, it is worth about 
$500 new. I bought one used about 20 years ago fdor $25 bucks. I've had to 
replace the bulb once. That was another $25 but it has been worth it. With 
the age of computers and scanners, I use it less but it's still a nice toy.

Linda Campbell

-----Original Message-----
From:	Linda Letscher [SMTP:andor@fair.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, February 09, 1999 4:46 PM
To:	bungi.com
Subject:	Price for Overhead projector

I was out today and came across a overhead projector, the man bought from
the local college.  I didn't get the name of it but it is thing where you
put your something down on it and it projects on a wall or screen or what
have you.   He said he would sell me one for $55.00   Is that a good price?
I thought if it was a decent price I would use it to transfer or enlarge a
patterns.  Anyone have any input??
Thanks,
Linda Jo


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 09:39:30 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Teaching and Liability
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:13:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.6132.0>
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I agree, get the form signed, it can't hurt. Most folks will understand. I 
signed one when I went to a fire walking seminar - made me understand that 
I was responisble for my own actions.

Linda 
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 09:52:29 1999
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From: "Alex Gacic" <agacic@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Printer review
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:14:53 PST
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.161453.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi, Byron

I was interesting in that Canon printer too.  But two things that seemed 
to bother me about it.  1. speed, it seemed to be pretty slow. 2. No 
tray for the 11 x 17 paper, so you have to manual feed the paper.

I only looked at one at the store, I would be interested in getting your 
impressions about these two issues.

Subject: Printer review
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:50:42 -0600
Reply Reply All Forward  Delete  Previous Next  Close 

I've been looking for a larger printer to use with Glass Eye and such...
Since most of my panels are sidelights,transoms,cabinet doors etc I 
wanted
to be able to print them out on fewer sheets of paper..

I've been looking for several months at HPs and Epsons wider 
printers(they
will accept up to 11x17 paper) but have been put off by the $500 price 
tag
on them...The other day I was in Best Buy and they had a new Canon 
BJC-5000
for $199.... I tried the demo deal on it and it printed great on plain
paper. I figgured for 199 it was worth a shot...I brought it home and it
works great... Even does near photo quality with the optional 
cartridge...

I can now do a quicky full size printout for my customers without so 
much
taping together...

Anyway if anyone has been looking for a larger printer without having to 
get
a 2nd mortgage on the house ya cant beat this one...

Byron...
Wells Glassworks



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Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability & First Aid
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Based on what has happened to acquaintances, I would not only include
the waiver but would also include a list of basic safety
requirement. You know the ones: glass is sharp be careful; always use
safety glasses with the grinder; don't inhale the fumes from
the solder ... The waiver should be signed when they register for the
class, it can actually be part of the registration form.

Also make sure they get a copy of the safety rules. It should state that
they have gotten it in the waiver.

You should also get certified in basic first aid. That little card can
carry a lot of weight in court when you have placed a Band-Aid on
someone's finger.  Bet you didn't know you could be sued for
"miss-applying" a Band-Aid.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

Isn't it amazing how similar caution and paranoia have become?


Great advice I agree. Touching on the first aid card I am certified in
first aid and CPR. You do have rights if you help someone regarding
first aid & you are certified. I wouldn't worry too much about that, I
would worry about HIV and that risk. I always carry a small first aid
kit that includes gloves & a mask. I wouldn't apply a bandage without
gloves on. I certainly wouldn't administer CPR without a mask on. I
don't care how big the cut is or how bad the heart attack is.

This is just a reminder to all of you that you don't get near anyone who
needs first aid without first putting gloves on. They can put the band
aid on themselves or wait until I get my gloves on. You can purchase
small first aid kits at medical supply shops.

Thanks Vic and all of you for some great advice.

Pam

*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P><I>Based on what has happened to acquaintances, I would not only include
the waiver but would also include a list of basic safety</I>
<BR><I>requirement. You know the ones: glass is sharp be careful; always
use safety glasses with the grinder; don't inhale the fumes from</I>
<BR><I>the solder ... The waiver should be signed when they register for
the class, it can actually be part of the registration form.</I><I></I>

<P><I>Also make sure they get a copy of the safety rules. It should state
that they have gotten it in the waiver.</I><I></I>

<P><I>You should also get certified in basic first aid. That little card
can carry a lot of weight in court when you have placed a Band-Aid on</I>
<BR><I>someone's finger.&nbsp; Bet you didn't know you could be sued for
"miss-applying" a Band-Aid.</I><I></I>

<P><I>Vic M.</I>
<BR><I>Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</I><I></I>

<P><I>Isn't it amazing how similar caution and paranoia have become?</I>
<BR><I></I>&nbsp;

<P>Great advice I agree. Touching on the first aid card I am certified
in first aid and CPR. You do have rights if you help someone regarding
first aid &amp; you are certified. I wouldn't worry too much about that,
I would worry about HIV and that risk. I always carry a small first aid
kit that includes gloves &amp; a mask. I wouldn't apply a bandage without
gloves on. I certainly wouldn't administer CPR without a mask on. I don't
care how big the cut is or how bad the heart attack is.

<P>This is just a reminder to all of you that you don't get near anyone
who needs first aid without first putting gloves on. They can put the band
aid on themselves or wait until I get my gloves on. You can purchase small
first aid kits at medical supply shops.

<P>Thanks Vic and all of you for some great advice.

<P>Pam<I></I>

<P>*********************************

<P>Pamela Burns-Tappan
<BR>Executive Director
<BR>The Stained Glass Artists
<BR><A HREF="http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists">http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists</A>

<P>Moswood Mountain Limited
<BR><A HREF="http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited">http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1">http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1</A>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 11:30:40 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:13:03 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.18133.0>
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Although I do not have lawsuit involvement / prevention experience re glass, I
do have extensive experience thereof, in another industry. I couldn't agree
more with what Albert is telling you. In today's litigious climate, it is
ESSENTIAL, not just prudent, to protect yourself, in that way. Again, as
Albert points out, a hold -- harmless agreement won't protect you from anyone
who is lawsuit minded, but it will make it much more difficult for them to
prevail in a suit, once filed. If they've signed an agreement, they can't
raise the notion that they weren't told, or warned. At the very least, this
will help mitigate damages. Conversely, if you allow conditions to prevail
that are unsafe, and are sued, all the waivers in the world won't keep you
from paying.  Remember, anyone can sue you. Making it difficult for them to
win, is the name of the game.

Richard
Glassics Artglass
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 12:50:36 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1252DD55EC66E0028EDF773E"
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability & First Aid
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:23:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.42333.0>
References: <<005e01be5544$040ab420$754daccf@hq6bx>>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk


--------------1252DD55EC66E0028EDF773E
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>      I wouldn't apply a bandage without gloves on. I certainly
>      wouldn't administer CPR without a mask on. I don't care how
>      big the cut is or how bad the heart attack is.
>
Sorry, should have clarified the above. The CPR mask is what an EMT
would use to administer CPR. It's a special mask with airway holes in it
made of sterile thin plastic. You place the mask over the victims mouth,
then start CPR. It protects both victim and resuscitator from health
risks. The holes make it handy to get air in :)

Pam

>
>
>
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


--------------1252DD55EC66E0028EDF773E
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<HTML>
<BODY BGCOLOR="#FFFFFF">

<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"><I>I
wouldn't apply a bandage without gloves on. I certainly wouldn't administer
CPR without a mask on. I don't care how big the cut is or how bad the heart
attack is.</I></BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, should have clarified the above. The CPR mask is what an EMT would
use to administer CPR. It's a special mask with airway holes in it made
of sterile thin plastic. You place the mask over the victims mouth, then
start CPR. It protects both victim and resuscitator from health risks.
The holes make it handy to get air in :)

<P>Pam
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
</BLOCKQUOTE>


<P>*********************************

<P>Pamela Burns-Tappan
<BR>Executive Director
<BR>The Stained Glass Artists
<BR><A HREF="http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists">http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists</A>

<P>Moswood Mountain Limited
<BR><A HREF="http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited">http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1">http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1</A>
<BR>&nbsp;
</BODY>
</HTML>

--------------1252DD55EC66E0028EDF773E--

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 13:21:07 1999
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From: "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:25:51 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.62551.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BE5501.42D77FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Has anyone noticed a huge disparity in pricing on some stained glass =
artists' web
sites and "real-world" pricing? =20

I was recently researching pricing and was amazed at the prices listed =
on some=20
of the sites.  I considered the sites I found with pricing that figured =
out to be=20
around $400 to $500 per square foot out of line, especially considering =
the work.=20
But then I came across stainedglassart.com/panels which has prices that =
figured=20
out to be between $700 and $1000 per square foot!  (Interestingly =
enough, the=20
artist admits that the "Carousel Ram" , whose price figures out to be =
$956 per=20
square foot, is not an original design.)

In discussions of pricing by the square foot, it seemed the majority of =
those who
responded were charging somewhere around $125 - $150 with variance for=20
complexity of the design.   The project I am currently working on is a =
little over 4=20
square feet, and averages 78 pieces *per* square foot, and if I were to =
price it, I=20
was thinking around the $150 per s.f. range. =20

When someone has requested advice regarding pricing in the past, =
primarily the=20
same people respond.  Is it my limited knowledge and a very small cross =
section=20
of bungi that has lead me to believe that the bungi responses were the =
norm??

Dawn

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BE5501.42D77FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Has anyone noticed a huge disparity =
in pricing=20
on some stained glass artists' web</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>sites and &quot;real-world&quot; =
</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>pricing?&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I was recently researching pricing =
</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>and was amazed at the prices listed on some =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>of the sites.&nbsp; I </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>considered the </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>sites I =
found with=20
pricing that figured out to be </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>around $400 </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>to=20
$500 per square foot out of line, especially considering the work. =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>But then I came across=20
stainedglassart.com/panels which has prices </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =

size=3D2>that figured </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>out to be between $700 and $1000 per =
square=20
foot!&nbsp; (</FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Interestingly enough, =
the=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>artist admits that the =
&quot;Carousel Ram&quot;=20
, whose price figures out to be </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 =
size=3D2>$956 per=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>square foot, is not an original=20
design.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>In discussions of pricing by the =
square foot, it=20
seemed the majority of those who</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>responded were </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>charging somewhere around $125 - $150 with variance for =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>complexity of the </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>design.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The =
project I am=20
currently working on is a little over 4 </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>square feet, and </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>averages </FONT><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>78 </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>pieces *per* square foot, and if I were to price it, I =
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>was thinking </FONT><FONT =
color=3D#000000=20
size=3D2>around the $150 per s.f. range.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>When someone has requested advice =
regarding=20
pricing in the past, primarily the </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>same people respond.&nbsp; =
</FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Is it my limited knowledge and a very small =
cross section=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>of bungi that has lead </FONT><FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>me to believe that the bungi responses were the =

norm??</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Dawn</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0042_01BE5501.42D77FA0--

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 13:45:59 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:11:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb9.91143.0>
Precedence: bulk

I just started taking a stained glass class several weeks ago and this was
the first paper he had us signed.

Since he also opens his shop two days a week for cheap community workshops
(For $1.00 an hour you get to use his equipment and get help from him and
the other artists that frequent  (heck, they even have a potluck dinner once
a week!!!)...anyway...because of this he also has a sign posted "Use At Your
Own Risk" by  the grinders  and a few other places.

It really is a good idea in this 'sue-happy, lawyer-filled'  world.....it
may not protect you from severe negligence on your part, (like that would be
right!! ;)  but it should prevent the scenario you describe.

Take Care,
Soraya

~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya may be reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
Soraya's web site is currently undergoing reconstruction�
"The Witches' Thicket"  may be found at...
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~
"For Passionate People These Are Desperate Times,
Desperate Measures Call For Passionate Crimes"
--Michael Stanley

~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)~)
>Does anyone require their students to sign a waiver of liability. I am
>gathering all of my pre-reg forms together and wondered if this might be
>a good document to include. More of a take this class at your own risk
>type of form I suppose I should have said.
>
>Yes I plan on teaching glass safety but I'm afraid of getting that one
>person who gets a glass cut, no insurance and wants me to pay or worse
>yet, sues the heck out of me. Does this concern anyone or am I being to
>paranoid?


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 15:04:12 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:08:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.6843.0>
Precedence: bulk

I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices found
at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is poorly
done and worth from $50.00 to $80.00 a square foot. Notice the run off
lines. They are all over the place and would seem to indiciate a person that
had little skill in cutting did the work. I am not anti run off line but
think they should be used with GRACE. Not the case here. Also, it would seem
that the work is foiled and that is not always the best selection for a
panel.

I am a fan of Spectrum glass but it IMO has been overly used in the windows
at this site. There are far better glasses for the presented windows. True,
they cost more but it seems that any fairly priced panel should have glass
selected for the purpose and not for its low cost.

Bob (who rarely charges more than $120.00 a square foot)

>>Has anyone noticed a huge disparity in pricing on some stained glass =
artists' web
sites and "real-world" pricing? =20

I was recently researching pricing and was amazed at the prices listed =
on some=20
of the sites.  I considered the sites I found with pricing that figured =
out to be=20
around $400 to $500 per square foot out of line, especially considering =
the work.=20
But then I came across stainedglassart.com/panels which has prices that =
figured=20
out to be between $700 and $1000 per square foot!  (Interestingly =
enough, the=20
artist admits that the "Carousel Ram" , whose price figures out to be =
$956 per=20
square foot, is not an original design.)

In discussions of pricing by the square foot, it seemed the majority of =
those who
responded were charging somewhere around $125 - $150 with variance for=20
complexity of the design.   The project I am currently working on is a =
little over 4=20
square feet, and averages 78 pieces *per* square foot, and if I were to =
price it, I=20
was thinking around the $150 per s.f. range. =20

When someone has requested advice regarding pricing in the past, =
primarily the=20
same people respond.  Is it my limited knowledge and a very small cross =
section=20
of bungi that has lead me to believe that the bungi responses were the =
norm??

Dawn<<

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 15:48:11 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Dawn <dawnm@fidnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:22:19 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.102219.0>
References: <<1999Feb10.62551.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I am appalled at some of the things I see on the internet.

I see stones straight out of The Tiffany Garden books, priced at $160,
which I think $75-$100 would be more realistic.
To top it off they used ugly glass!  I figure they are hoping to get
lucky.  Just because they have it on their site listed for that price
doesnt mean they have actually sold it at that price.

Of course, I have sent some of *my* prospective buyers to some of these
sites and they are happy happy to deal with me! ;o)
It can work to our advantage.  I really dont want to see them under
pricing.

I have been pricing my stuff at *about $2 per peice of glass...to get to
what I consider a *fair* price both for myself and the consumer.  This
is why I *stopped* making 50 peice pavers at 8"x4", I figure no one in
their right mind would pay for that...so my mom has those!

Keep in mind, I have only been selling since early December.  This is
where I get 99.9% of my advice.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 16:09:19 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Soraya <soraya@cros.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:29:58 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.102958.0>
References: <<1999Feb9.91143.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> Since he also opens his shop two days a week for cheap community workshops
> (For $1.00 an hour you get to use his equipment and get help from him and
> the other artists that frequent  (heck, they even have a potluck dinner once
> a week!!!)...anyway...because of this he also has a sign posted "Use At Your
> Own Risk" by  the grinders  and a few other places.


I think that sounds like a great deal for you and his other students.
Beside having the benefit of his help available, you can use the tools
and determine what you need to purchase now, what can wait, what you can
live without!

I am curious, does he teach you how to clean, maintain the equipment?

That last time I was at my local glass shop, I walked through the area
where they give classes and was amazed that they allowed their grinders
to get soooooooo nasty before cleaning, and replacing water.  Doesnt
seem to give a very good example to their students.  

I think I would include the *care and feeding* of tools in my classes,
were I to give them.  

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 16:12:27 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Various threads
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:28:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.122845.0>
Precedence: bulk

Pricing....I have often commented on the prices I see in tourist towns
and the prices I see around me in the real world...finished pieces in
suppliers stores and at craft fairs.  I suppose if you can get $700/sq
ft, go for it!

Bread...the best is mine own husband's oatmeal bread (so there.  Not for
sale in any store.)

Bumper stickers...bumper stickers, dirt...it's that kind of stuff that
holds my old car together.

Art fair jurying...well, I don't do the BIG shows.  The one show I do
that requires slides knows me so well they just send me a "pre-accepted"
form now.  Many of the shows I do, I'm working with organizers that I've
known for a long time.

Cold...well, it snowed Sunday night.  Today was in the 40's, tomorrow in
the 50's (forecast), with Friday possibly at 60.  This is New England in
February?  Why am I afraid we're going to pay for this?

Dorothy



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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 16:16:17 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: RE: Price for Overhead projector
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:06:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.1264.0>
Precedence: bulk

I agree Linda... that overhead projector is a steal.... I'd buy it in
a heartbeat if it was in good shape.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 16:34:45 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.133131.0>
References: <<1999Feb10.6843.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
> another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices found
> at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is poorly
> done and worth from $50.00 to $80.00 a square foot. Notice the run off
> lines. They are all over the place and would seem to indiciate a person that
> had little skill in cutting did the work. I am not anti run off line but
> think they should be used with GRACE. Not the case here. Also, it would seem
> that the work is foiled and that is not always the best selection for a
> panel.
> 
> I am a fan of Spectrum glass but it IMO has been overly used in the windows
> at this site. There are far better glasses for the presented windows. True,
> they cost more but it seems that any fairly priced panel should have glass
> selected for the purpose and not for its low cost.
> 
> Bob (who rarely charges more than $120.00 a square foot)
> 
> >>Has anyone noticed a huge disparity in pricing on some stained glass =
> artists' web
> sites and "real-world" pricing? =20
> 
> I was recently researching pricing and was amazed at the prices listed =
> on some=20
> of the sites.  I considered the sites I found with pricing that figured =
> out to be=20
> around $400 to $500 per square foot out of line, especially considering =
> the work.=20
> But then I came across stainedglassart.com/panels which has prices that =
> figured=20
> out to be between $700 and $1000 per square foot!  (Interestingly =
> enough, the=20
> artist admits that the "Carousel Ram" , whose price figures out to be =
> $956 per=20
> square foot, is not an original design.)
> 
> In discussions of pricing by the square foot, it seemed the majority of =
> those who
> responded were charging somewhere around $125 - $150 with variance for=20
> complexity of the design.   The project I am currently working on is a =
> little over 4=20
> square feet, and averages 78 pieces *per* square foot, and if I were to =
> price it, I=20
> was thinking around the $150 per s.f. range. =20
> 
> When someone has requested advice regarding pricing in the past, =
> primarily the=20
> same people respond.  Is it my limited knowledge and a very small cross =
> section=20
> of bungi that has lead me to believe that the bungi responses were the =
> norm??
> 
> Dawn<<
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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yeah i've always thought the prices were way too high. the work isn't
terribly advanced. i mean really 1200 bucks for a 18x20 window made of
spectrum, about 20 pieces...please...


goes up to $4500 for a 30" in kokomo... basically she's charging tiffany
like prices, for work that is no where near that level. 

though on the plus side, i do like some of the boxes. though the prices
are about 20 times higher then they should be....

i'm not really into a witch hunt, but this does make the art look bad.
it's like a thimble painter charging $2000 per thimble.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 19:22:36 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 99 18:17:53 
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Okay, guys, you got me.. I went to the stainedglassart website, and though some things 
were interesting ,,, you're absolutely right about the prices!! where does she live that 
she can charge that and get it??? I only charge $75 a square foot, use the glass the 
window/piece calls for and charge extra only for bevels or painting/firing.. and not much 
at that.. and I still don't get much in the way of business!

What's the saying? 'there ain't no justice'

Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 19:52:08 1999
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From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:34:01 -0500
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Would someone please explain what a run off line is?

Jerri




>I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
>another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices
found
>at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is poorly
>done and worth from $50.00 to $80.00 a square foot. Notice the run off
>lines. They are all over the place and would seem to indiciate a person
that
>had little skill in cutting did the work. I am not anti run off line but
>think they should be used with GRACE. Not the case here. Also, it would
seem
>that the work is foiled and that is not always the best selection for a
>panel.
>


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 20:04:33 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:51:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.105113.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for
and
> another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices
found
> at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is
poorly
> done and worth from $50.00 to $80.00 a square foot. Notice the run off

> lines. They are all over the place and would seem to indiciate a
person that
> had little skill in cutting did the work. I am not anti run off line
but
> think they should be used with GRACE. Not the case here. Also, it
would seem
> that the work is foiled and that is not always the best selection for
a
> panel.

yeah i've always thought the prices were way too high. the work isn't
terribly advanced. i mean really 1200 bucks for a 18x20 window made of
spectrum, about 20 pieces...please...



Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
prices. She has priced it how she feels fit. If you disagree that is
fine but this isn't the place to post how lousy you think her art is or
how over priced it may be. I know your voicing your opinion so goes the
old saying, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything
at all. Sorry but this thread really struck a nerve in me and I'm sure
in others.

Pam
--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 21:35:52 1999
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X-Path: aracnet.net!bigcreek
From: Wayne Parks <bigcreek@aracnet.net>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:35:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.17358.0>
References: <<1999Feb10.6843.0>>
Organization: Big Creek Studio
Precedence: bulk



Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
> another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices found
> at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is poorly
> done 
>
>
Bob: 
Right on, I think that Ms. K..... must be on something. Whatever it is I
would love to get some. Then maybe I would have the nerve to charge
those kind of prices also.
I like the idea of saving that web site and sending prospective
customers there. They would all come running back telling me what a
great deal I was giving them. Oh well back to the studio.......

Wayne Parks
Big Creek Studio
http://bigcreek.cjb.net

To bring the dead to life
Is no great magic.
Few are wholly dead:
Blow on a dead mans embers
And a live flame will start.
                      Robert Graves
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 21:41:27 1999
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X-Path: eatumup.com!byronwells
From: byronwells@eatumup.com (Byron Wells)
To: "Alex Gacic" <agacic@hotmail.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Printer review
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:52:17 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.155217.0>
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Hey Alex..

Well I may not be up on the latest printer speeds but it is faster than my
trusty HP 660c... With 2 ink carts in it its pretty fast in black mode...For
faster color printing you put to multicolor carts in it...Very true about
having to manually feed the 11x17 paper but for $300 difference in the price
I can feed paper manually when needed...I've only been in business about 1
1/2 years so every penny counts to me....
Byron...
Wells Glassworks

-----Original Message-----
From: Alex Gacic <agacic@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 6:03 AM
Subject: Re: Printer review


>Hi, Byron
>
>I was interesting in that Canon printer too.  But two things that seemed
>to bother me about it.  1. speed, it seemed to be pretty slow. 2. No
>tray for the 11 x 17 paper, so you have to manual feed the paper.
>
>I only looked at one at the store, I would be interested in getting your
>impressions about these two issues.
>
>Subject: Printer review
>Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 22:50:42 -0600
>Reply Reply All Forward  Delete  Previous Next  Close
>
>I've been looking for a larger printer to use with Glass Eye and such...
>Since most of my panels are sidelights,transoms,cabinet doors etc I
>wanted
>to be able to print them out on fewer sheets of paper..
>
>I've been looking for several months at HPs and Epsons wider
>printers(they
>will accept up to 11x17 paper) but have been put off by the $500 price
>tag
>on them...The other day I was in Best Buy and they had a new Canon
>BJC-5000
>for $199.... I tried the demo deal on it and it printed great on plain
>paper. I figgured for 199 it was worth a shot...I brought it home and it
>works great... Even does near photo quality with the optional
>cartridge...
>
>I can now do a quicky full size printout for my customers without so
>much
>taping together...
>
>Anyway if anyone has been looking for a larger printer without having to
>get
>a 2nd mortgage on the house ya cant beat this one...
>
>Byron...
>Wells Glassworks
>
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 22:12:28 1999
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From: byronwells@eatumup.com (Byron Wells)
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Abrasive Blasting Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:56:13 -0600
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Thanks for the info folks...
Byron..

-----Original Message-----
From: Jak N Wolfy <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: Byron Wells <byronwells@eatumup.com>; glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: Abrasive Blasting Pricing


>Byron, Start with a square foot price. 20., 30, 40, what ever where you
live
>would handle comfortably. Measure your pattern height and width from edges
>of the pattern drawing. Ad 2 inches both directions and use that for your
>dimensions.  Add a certain percent for original artwork if it is....( make
a
>note somewhere that artwork is the property of artist and protect...you may
>not have a copyright but it will scare some people off from copying your
>work)  If you're surface blasting go with that price . If it's stage
>blasting and carving add a certain percent for 1 to 3 stage and a different
>percent for mulit-stage and complexity. If you need to find a rough
starting
>point in your area for sq.ft. call someone and play dumb. Tell tham you
have
>a cabinet door frame that you want etched glass in and how much it would
>cost..............................Jackie

>>
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 10 22:27:32 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: emilie@earthlink.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: bottle glass
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:26:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb10.182655.0>
Precedence: bulk

There is a product called "spray A" that is supposed to prevent
devitrification.  (Never tried it).


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Tue, 09 Feb 1999 22:31:07 -0800 Emilie Golding <emilie@earthlink.net>
writes:
>I've been cutting up old bottles,  melting them into freeform shapes, 
>and 
>then wrapping them with wire.
>
>The problem is I'm getting a lot of devitrification. To cover up the 
>scummy part,  I've been sandblasting and tumbling the pieces (making 
>them 
>look like beach glass). 
>
>Is there a way to fire bottle glass and get better results?  I can't 
>seem 
>to find the best combination of temperature and time.


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 01:37:28 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:21:20 -0800
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>>Would someone please explain what a run off line is?

Jerri<<

My defination of a run off line is a line that is added to a stained glass
panel to make the work practical for cutting in stained glass. An example
would be a lead line that extended the tip of a leaf to the border to make
the cutting of the background glass practical.

With care in the design these lines can be reduced in number or eliminated.
When they are used it is nice if they seemed a natural part of the design
and not stand out like sore thumbs. So.......... a run off line from a leaf
will form a gracefull curve with the leaf.

There may well be other names for run off lines but I do not recall them.
Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 04:08:00 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:22:08 +0000
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> Okay, guys, you got me.. I went to the stainedglassart website, and though some things 
> were interesting ,,, you're absolutely right about the prices!! where does she live that 
> she can charge that and get it??? I only charge $75 a square foot, use the glass the 
> window/piece calls for and charge extra only for bevels or painting/firing.. and not much 
> at that.. and I still don't get much in the way of business!
> 
> What's the saying? 'there ain't no justice'


Charging a price is one thing. Getting it is another. Interesting to 
note the level of outrage (jealousy?) that those prices have 
engendered. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 04:38:41 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:34:21 -0800
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>>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
prices.<<snip<<

I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread is sent
to her. When a person posts stained glass product for sale and gives a price
I believe it deserves comment. Would I buy it or not and why. Failure to
answer these questions makes discussion rather pointless.

Most of us are here to learn and thereby form opinions. I have just
completed a very carefull review of the site and have only steeled my
OPINION that the work is way far over priced and not very good at that. Crap
is crap and failure to smell it and report it is not one of my short
comings. I will say the site is well designed and loads nicely. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 05:08:27 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:09:09 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.899.0>
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Hello

This is my second response on this thread - now that I've had a look at the
famous site!

Crucial words from Uncle Bob:-

I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
another will buy it for

If this lady makes money with these products then good luck to her.

I don't know enough about available patterns to say that her work is wholely
original or not but it comes across as so. I certainly haven't seen boxes or
lamps like hers any where else. Originality does count for something.

This is the way 'Art' works. I have watched someone literally throw a pot of
paint at a large canvas and sell the result for �5000 (I can't be bothered
to work it out in Dollars!)

I think what is at work here is a system of perceived values. When one of
her customers looks at what they have purchased they think they have a piece
of 'Art' and they love it. It's no good us calling ourselves Stained Glass
Artists - it isn't the same! This market wants a bit extra - perhaps a bit
of mystery about what it all means. Some people simply call themselves
'Artists' and jack their prices up. They aren't doing us a diservice but
they are degrading the name of Artist.

I take this moment to decline to define what Art is!!!

I will say this though - with all due deference to Pam. Usually when I look
at other peoples work I am a inspired and I get ideas. This didn't happen
when I looked at this site. Make of that what you will.

BtB


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 05:15:19 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
To: byronwells@eatumup.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:30:27 EST
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Any of you Bungians know of a web site that may have a legal form for the
liability purpose?   I had a very close call with a sheet of glass yesterday,
fortunately I wasn't hurt badly.  It did scare the bejesus out of me, I'm
still shaking over that one. I will have any new students sign a release.  
Luanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 06:02:17 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:45:20 EST
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I think of it this way:

There is right, and there is wrong. To blatantly overcharge a consumer who
probably does not know the difference between mediocre and superior
workmanship (and this includes quality of design, ie: flow of lines, placement
of lines, etc.) is wrong. We as glassworkers can all estimate what the
materials in one of those pieces cost to produce. I don't think I sensed
jealousy in those previous posts, it was more like outrage. That's good. That
shows there artists/craftsmen who care a great deal for the craft/medium and
the way it is presented to the public. I happened upon that particular site
about a year ago, and to tell you the truth, I also was quite surprised
because the prices did not seem to mesh with the products. I think this is an
interesting and improtant topic to discuss. 
As for picking out this particular website: why not? I would be quite
interested in this particular person's response to justify her pricing. And
like someone said (Bob?) said about if you can get that price form a consumer
then that is what the glass is worth - well, I feel that is true too. I also
thought that it was interesting to read in that same website that that person
was seeking grants & funding for her work. Now, what about glass that is
extremely underpriced? Examples?
Just my 2 cents

Laura P


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 06:24:11 1999
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I am really new and still working on my first project so I realize that
discernment and level of expertise is extremely limited in my case.  However,
I went to that site and thought her work was beautiful.  She may have a
clientele in a large city (NYC or SanFran.) that is willing to pay that price
(obviously or she wouldn't charge that much)  But I did think her boxes-
houses-were interestingly done.  I enjoyed her work.
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 06:24:19 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
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Gee Whizz........  on second thought maybe I will just give up teaching.    I
was paranoid to begin with, now my mind is racing with all kinds of bad
thoughts.  Maybe I will interview all prospective students, do a background
check, ask for personal and professional references, etc.   LOL

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 06:42:43 1999
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In a message dated 2/11/99 12:45:36 PM !!!First Boot!!!, Luanne6556 writes:

<< Gee Whizz........  on second thought maybe I will just give up teaching.
I was paranoid to begin with, now my mind is racing with all kinds of bad
thoughts.  Maybe I will interview all prospective students, do a background
check, ask for personal and professional references, etc.   LOL >>


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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:45:36 EST
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Gee Whizz........  on second thought maybe I will just give up teaching.    I
was paranoid to begin with, now my mind is racing with all kinds of bad
thoughts.  Maybe I will interview all prospective students, do a background
check, ask for personal and professional references, etc.   LOL

--part0_918737292_boundary--
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 07:15:26 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
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Pam, I couldn't agree more.  

Arnold


-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for
>and
>> another will buy it for. Having said that I will comment on the prices
>found
>> at http://www.stainedglassart.com . What a rip off! IMHO the work is
>poorly
>> done and worth from $50.00 to $80.00 a square foot. Notice the run off
>
>> lines. They are all over the place and would seem to indiciate a
>person that
>> had little skill in cutting did the work. I am not anti run off line
>but
>> think they should be used with GRACE. Not the case here. Also, it
>would seem
>> that the work is foiled and that is not always the best selection for
>a
>> panel.
>
>yeah i've always thought the prices were way too high. the work isn't
>terribly advanced. i mean really 1200 bucks for a 18x20 window made of
>spectrum, about 20 pieces...please...
>
>
>
>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
>same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
>prices. She has priced it how she feels fit. If you disagree that is
>fine but this isn't the place to post how lousy you think her art is or
>how over priced it may be. I know your voicing your opinion so goes the
>old saying, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything
>at all. Sorry but this thread really struck a nerve in me and I'm sure
>in others.
>
>Pam
>--
>*********************************
>
>Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Executive Director
>The Stained Glass Artists
>http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
>
>Moswood Mountain Limited
>http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
>http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
>
>
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To: Bryce & Shirley Smith <sssinc@epix.net>,
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Subject: [Fwd: VIRUS ALERT......]
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>VIRUS WARNING!!!
>>=3D20
>> If you receive an email titled "It Takes Guts to Say 'Jesus'" DO NOT
>> open it. It will erase  everything on your hard drive. Forward this
>> letter out to as many people as  you can. This is a new, very
>> malicious virus and not many people know about it. This information
>> was announced yesterday morning from IBM; please share it with
everyone
>> that might access the Internet. Once again, pass this along to
>> EVERYONE in your address book so that this may be stopped.=3D20
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                                                         Subject: You
won't believe this.
A warning to all who travel alone -
This story came from the  "DailyTexan" - the University of Texas
newspaper. Apparently it occurred during Fall Premier-a Uni tradition
that is a celebration of the end of midterms.   "Reason to not party
anymore"- This guy went out last Saturday night to a party. He was
having a good time, had a couple of beers and some girl seemed to like
him and invited him to go to another party.  He quickly agreed and
decided to go along with her. She took him to a party in some apartment
and they continued to drink, and even got involved with some other drugs
(unknown which). The next thing he knew, he woke up completely naked in
a bathtub filled with ice.  He was still feeling the effects of the
drugs, but looked around to see he was alone. He looked down at his
chest, which had: "CALL 911 OR YOU WILL DIE" written on it in lipstick.
He saw a phone was on a stand next to the tub, so he picked it up and
dialed. He explained to the EMS operator what the situation was and that
he didn't know where he was, what he took, or why he was really calling.
She advised him to get  out of the tub. He did, and she asked him to
look himself over in the mirror. He did, and appeared normal, so she
told him to check  his back. He did, only to find two 9 inch slits on
his lower back. She told him to get back in the tub immediately, and
they would sent a rescue team over. Apparently, after being examined, he
found out more of what had happened. His kidneys were stolen. They are
worth 10,000 dollars each on the black market. (I was unaware this even
existed.) Several guesses are in order:
 The second party was a sham, the people involved had to be at least
medical students, and it was not just recreational drugs he was given.
Regardless, he is currently in the  hospital on life support, awaiting a
spare kidney. The University of Texas in conjunction with Baylor
University Medical Center is conducting tissue research to match the
sophomore student with a donor. I wish to warn you about a new crime
ring that is targeting business travelers. This ring is well organized,
well funded, has very skilled personnel, and is currently in most major
cities and recently very active in New Orleans. The crime begins when a
business traveler goes to a lounge for a drink at the end of the work
day.  A person in the bar walks up as they sit alone and offers to buy
them a drink. The last thing the traveler remembers until they wake up
in a hotel room bath tub, their body submerged to their neck in ice, is
sipping that drink.  There is a note taped to the wall instructing them
not to move and to call 911.  A phone is on a small table next to the
bathtub for them to call.  The business traveler calls 911 who have
become quite familiar with this crime. The business traveler is
instructed by the 911 operator to very slowly and carefully reach behind
them and feel if there is a tube protruding from their lower back. The
business traveler finds the tube and answers, "Yes," The 911 operator
tells them to remain still, having already sent paramedics to help. The
operator knows that both of the business traveler's kidneys have been
harvested.  This is not a scam or out of a science fiction novel, it is
real.   It is documented and confirmable. If you travel or someone close
to you travels, please be careful.
Sadly, this is very true.  My husband is a Houston Firefighter/EMT and
they have received alerts regarding this crime ring. It is to be taken
very seriously. The daughter of a friend of a fellow firefighter had
this happen to her. Skilled doctor's are performing these crimes!
(which, by the way have been highly noted in the Las Vegas area).
Additionally, the military has received alerts regarding this. This
story blew me away.
I really want as many people to see this as possible so please bounce
this to whoever you can.
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>> Michele Shafer - DML/Lab Administration
>>>>> >>>> Medical Manager Research & Development
>>>>> >>>> 15151 N.W. 99th Street
>>>>> >>>> Alachua, Florida  32615
>>>>> >>>> Tel. (904) 462-2148
>>>>> >>>> Fax (904) 462-1505
Is this not one of the scariest things you have ever heard of?
>>>>> >>>>
PLEASE forward this to everyone you know





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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 08:15:17 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:11:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.5112.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> >>Would someone please explain what a run off line is?
> 
> Jerri<<
> 
> My defination of a run off line is a line that is added to a stained glass
> panel to make the work practical for cutting in stained glass. An example
> would be a lead line that extended the tip of a leaf to the border to make
> the cutting of the background glass practical.
> 
> With care in the design these lines can be reduced in number or eliminated.
> When they are used it is nice if they seemed a natural part of the design
> and not stand out like sore thumbs. So.......... a run off line from a leaf
> will form a gracefull curve with the leaf.
> 
> There may well be other names for run off lines but I do not recall them.
> Bob
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
> 


oh that's a run off line. i was imagining a flattened solder line that
dripped through at the edge. i ususally call them relief cuts, or break
lines, or something like that. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 08:23:08 1999
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From: Paula Smith-Lane <"pmsl@epix.net"@epix.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: Virus alert..Sorry!
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:39:58 -0500
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I apologize to all. I only wanted to send the virus alert, not the
nonsense that followed! Again, sorry.
Paula

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 08:36:50 1999
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From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:35:31 -0000
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Hello again! (Third time!)

The public, God bless 'em, are a perverse lot and seldom recognise real
talent but if we don't identify it in ourselves and persist in underselling
what we do then it has to be our fault at least in part! It is not
reasonable to expect them to pass judgement on our workmanship - they are
not qualified to do so. It is conmmon sense for us to sell as high as we can
and hope that the public take the hint that what we are making is good.

This lady must sell to somebody  - of course she doesn't need to sell many
pieces at those rates - but she would have dropped her prices if she was
starving to death. Possibly her customers know nothing about stained glass
ut they aren't required to are they!

I'm always sad about disappearing standards of craftsmanship. It is a true
indictment of our times. But when you come right down to it it is only the
maker and his peers who know about that and the real travesty is that it
doesn't seem to figure in the price in any way.

We have to realise that people who pay that sort of money are simply not
looking at how it's made - that is not what they are buying.

My last word - the opinion be it ever so 'umble is my own!

BtB












-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
Date: 11 February 1999 12:45
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>>>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
>same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
>prices.<<snip<<
>
>I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread is sent
>to her. When a person posts stained glass product for sale and gives a
price
>I believe it deserves comment. Would I buy it or not and why. Failure to
>answer these questions makes discussion rather pointless.
>
>Most of us are here to learn and thereby form opinions. I have just
>completed a very carefull review of the site and have only steeled my
>OPINION that the work is way far over priced and not very good at that.
Crap
>is crap and failure to smell it and report it is not one of my short
>comings. I will say the site is well designed and loads nicely. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
>
>----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 08:42:46 1999
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From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:50:09 -0500
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I had to put my 2 cents in here.

First of all Pam, this is the place for discussion and open discussion helps
all of us.  I am pricing all my works right at a $1000.00 starting today.
(Even my $30.00 Valentine heart)  What the heck. (just a joke don't get
excited)  I have learned a lot by reading everyone's ideas and suggestions.
Bungi is fairly free flowing and when I came to the page I didn't see any
rules about what and what was not to be discussed, posted by Glenna.

Second, this lady may have found a very specific nitch, like a Mafia
enclave, a group of drug lords, family that has money coming out their ears,
people in her very wealthy very small community that will pay inflated
prices.  Maybe she is using gold to solder, I don't have a clue.  I have
been in galleries in Beverly Hills, San Francisco and the like and have
never seen works such as hers at that price.   I have got to hand it to the
woman if she is selling her wares for what she has posted.  I feel an air of
legitimacy as she posts her name and address on her page.  The rule of thumb
sometimes is what the market will bear.  We can only sell at inflated prices
if we can find someone to pay the inflated price.

Hey!! anyone can have a web page.  My hat is off to dear Leah!!!  (what is
the Spanish word? cahones or something like that?)

Linda Jo

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>>>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
>same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
>prices.<<snip<<
>
>I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread is sent
>to her. When a person posts stained glass product for sale and gives a
price
>I believe it deserves comment. Would I buy it or not and why. Failure to
>answer these questions makes discussion rather pointless.
>
>Most of us are here to learn and thereby form opinions. I have just
>completed a very carefull review of the site and have only steeled my
>OPINION that the work is way far over priced and not very good at that.
Crap
>is crap and failure to smell it and report it is not one of my short
>comings. I will say the site is well designed and loads nicely. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
>
>----
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
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Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu Feb 11 06:52:02 1999
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I will freely admit that I have been guilty of overcharging as outrageously
as at the infamous http://www.stainedglassart.com
<http://www.stainedglassart.com> .
The difference is that unless the idiot, who we will call BJ,  was dumber
than a doornail he knew he was being overcharged. BJ and I never liked each
other and when he was quoted a price five times higher than anyone else he
said fine. Yes my "Artistic Integrity" is for sale but it ain't cheep!!! 

Who are we to criticize if the artist can get those prices. My own opinion
is that she probably offers big discounts or deals with people who have more
money than brains. 

A company I once consulted for paid $3000 each for works titled A, B and D.
One was a construction paper circle  on a construction paper background of a
contrasting color. The other two were a triangle and square. I don't
begrudge the "artist"
who collected the money. My only complaint is that they didn't come to me
for a competitive bid. (I'd have done all three is glass for a mere $5000.)


Also for the record Suzanne de Tulsa is right. This is the perfect site to
send clients to who think they are being overcharged.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 


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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
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<TITLE>RE: Disparity in Pricing</TITLE>
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I will freely admit that I have been =
guilty of overcharging as outrageously as at the infamous</FONT> <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.stainedglassart.com"><U><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.stainedglassart.com</FONT></U></A><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The difference is that unless the =
idiot, who we will call BJ,&nbsp; was dumber than a doornail he knew he =
was being overcharged. BJ and I never liked each other and when he was =
quoted a price five times higher than anyone else he said fine. Yes my =
&quot;Artistic Integrity&quot; is for sale but it ain't cheep!!! =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Who are we to criticize if the artist =
can get those prices. My own opinion is that she probably offers big =
discounts or deals with people who have more money than brains. =
</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A company I once consulted for paid =
$3000 each for works titled A, B and D. One was a construction paper =
circle&nbsp; on a construction paper background of a contrasting color. =
The other two were a triangle and square. I don't begrudge the =
&quot;artist&quot;</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">who collected the money. My only =
complaint is that they didn't come to me for a competitive bid. (I'd =
have done all three is glass for a mere $5000.)&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Also for the record Suzanne de Tulsa =
is right. This is the perfect site to send clients to who think they =
are being overcharged.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><A HREF=3D"mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT></U></A>
</P>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 09:02:12 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:21:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.52123.0>
References: <<199902111015.FAA12242@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
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Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > Okay, guys, you got me.. I went to the stainedglassart website, and though some things
> > were interesting ,,, you're absolutely right about the prices!! where does she live that
> > she can charge that and get it??? I only charge $75 a square foot, use the glass the
> > window/piece calls for and charge extra only for bevels or painting/firing.. and not much
> > at that.. and I still don't get much in the way of business!
> >
> > What's the saying? 'there ain't no justice'
> 
> Charging a price is one thing. Getting it is another. Interesting to
> note the level of outrage (jealousy?) that those prices have
> engendered. <smile>
> 
> Albert
> ----
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the only way i can see her asking for those prices would be for one or
all of the following:

1. she was a famous person in her field. like an actor, or someone like
chiuly. he does'nt even make the stuff he directs other's to make stuff.
and you woulf expect to see the higher prices, but the stuff does look
profesional.

2. if she used a special glass. dichroic, youg., some art glass (any art
glass), hand made, etc. she used spectrum, and kokomo, nothing terribly
special.

3. if it was a complex piece. that snake panel, no bigger then half of a
door, $7500. if the snake was actually cut into tiny pieces of glass, i
could understand the high price. but it was'nt, it was foil overlayed,
"a process she says wouldn't look right as seperate pieces". which is'nt
true it would look more varied, and it would'nt be the lazy persons,
out.

primarily it's just alot of gall. it reminds me of the story of an
ex-husband of a friend of mine. he was at a craft show once, and saw all
the expensive stained glass. he throught, "hey i could do that". he took
a few classes. made stuff in his kitchen then tried to sell it. the
problem was, that he was a slob, the pieces look like a 4 year old made
them, and he tried to charge 5 times what a profesional would charge. he
thought, just because it's stained glass people would shell out the
money regardless how it looks. or how well it's made.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 09:13:14 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:35:07 -0500
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Ya gets what ya pays for....?
A sucker born every minute....?

It pays to shop around....!

Linda Campbell

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 09:25:53 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:42:34 -0600
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> I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread is sent
> to her. 


She may well be a lurker on this list, and be aware of the discussion. 
Of course if my work was being critiqued...I'd say something about it.  
'Course, as we all know, I'm not one to keep my mouth shut!;o)

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 09:37:19 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:34:09 -0500
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Did anyone happen to watch King Hussein's funeral?  I happen to catch part
of it, and was looking at the wonderful glass behind the casket and people
stepping up to pay honor to the dead King.  I kept watching hoping that the
camera would pan around and let us see more of the wonderful work.  I guess
this was a private mosque in the palace.  I was wondering who did it, and
what the window depected...  Guess I will never know.
Linda Jo



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 09:51:37 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:56:49 +0000
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> Any of you Bungians know of a web site that may have a legal form for the
> liability purpose? 

Glad you're all right, Luanne. I used the search engine at 
http://askjeeves.com to find "waiver of liability" -- these could be 
reworked to your purpose:

http://www.smsg.org/Waiver.htm
http://www.maboli.com/seva/lohgarh/waiver.html


Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 10:10:06 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE:Disparity in Pricing
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> I went to that site and thought her work was beautiful.  She may have a
> clientele in a large city (NYC or SanFran.) that is willing to pay 
that price

Nope, although everyone in those cities can see her site. She's

Kopcsandy, Leah (STAINEDGLASSART-DOM)
   306 West Bridge Street
   Morrisville, PA 19067-2302


Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 10:15:18 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:50:25 -0500
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They have a potluck in a stained glass studio??? Now there's a liability
case just waiting to happen... lead poisoning, anyone?  Yipes.


Not really....the studio and the room they use to eat in are very much
seperate.  The food and the glass/lead  never meet.
Needless to say, I am sure everyone washes their hands as well.    The =
owner
is very safety conscience and 'stress' the dangers of working with lead.

Take Care,
Soraya


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<DIV>They have a potluck in a stained glass studio??? Now there's a=20
liability<BR>case just waiting to happen... lead poisoning, =
anyone?&nbsp;=20
Yipes.<BR><BR><BR>Not really....the studio and the room they use to eat =
in are=20
very much<BR>seperate.&nbsp; The food and the glass/lead&nbsp; never=20
meet.<BR>Needless to say, I am sure everyone washes their hands as=20
well.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The owner<BR>is very safety conscience and =
'stress' the=20
dangers of working with lead.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Take Care,</DIV>
<DIV>Soraya<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 10:33:47 1999
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Subject: NG - German Anyone ?
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:19:18 EST
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Hi All,

Thanks to those of you who responded. I thought I'd said this, but then got
distracted. Ginny is happily off the the license plate frame engraver. We'll
share the finished product.

Richard
Glassics Artglass
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 10:45:40 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:35:54 +0000
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> for a competitive bid. (I'd have done all three is glass for a mere 
$5000.)

It's true: some clients simply prefer to pay top dollar. I proposed 
for a very complicated web site at $7,500. The client opted for UUNet 
('cause they advertise on TV?) at $50,000.

The final site was full of spelling errors, bad links, and so on. The 
client later told me he could *never get hold of anyone at UUNet, 
etc. (great customer service, eh?).

They'd've been better off with me as a web developer 'cause I at 
least answer the phone. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 10:59:02 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: [Fwd: VIRUS ALERT......]
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:12:05 +0000
Message-ID: <199902111705.MAA15457@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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"Guts to Say Jesus" Hoax is not a virus and is a hoax. It is a sham,
meant only to panic new or inexperienced computer users. 


> >>  Forward this
> >> letter out to as many people as  you can. 

On the other hand, forwarding the message to as many people as you 
can jams up email servers, clogs everyone's hard drives, 
etc. If you receive a virus alert, go to any search engine and look 
up "virus alert" to see if it's true or a hoax before notifying 
anyone else. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:15:15 1999
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In a message dated 2/11/99 8:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
bshep@dircon.co.uk writes:

<< 
 I take this moment to decline to define what Art is!!!
 
 I will say this though - with all due deference to Pam. Usually when I look
 at other peoples work I am a inspired and I get ideas. This didn't happen
 when I looked at this site. Make of that what you will.
 
 BtB >>



I just heard this the other day but I forgot who said it.  :(

"A man who works with his hands is a laborer.
A man who works with his hands and head is a craftsman.
A man who works with his hands, head and heart is an artist."


Dianne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:16:30 1999
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My favorite quote from Robert Heinlien is: "Never underestimate the power of
human stupidity."

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Linda Campbell [mailto:lcbell@memach.com]
		Sent:	Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:35 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE: Disparity in Pricing

		Ya gets what ya pays for....?
		A sucker born every minute....?

		It pays to shop around....!

		Linda Campbell

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My favorite quote from Robert Heinlien =
is: &quot;Never underestimate the power of human =
stupidity.&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Linda Campbell =
[<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:lcbell@memach.com">mailto:lcbell@memach.com</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:35 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: Disparity in Pricing</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ya gets what ya pays for....?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">A sucker born every =
minute....?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">It pays to shop around....!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Linda Campbell</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:32:41 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:42:30 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.14230.0>
References: <<000001be5592$14fa80a0$8c669cd1@default>>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
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--------------BDE4C7D9F3A28DEAC022C427
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Bob E Duchesneau wrote:

> >>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people who are thinking the
> same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
> prices.<<snip<<
>
> I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread is sent
> to her. When a person posts stained glass product for sale and gives a price
> I believe it deserves comment. Would I buy it or not and why. Failure to
> answer these questions makes discussion rather pointless.
>
> Most of us are here to learn and thereby form opinions. I have just
> completed a very carefull review of the site and have only steeled my
> OPINION that the work is way far over priced and not very good at that. Crap
> is crap and failure to smell it and report it is not one of my short
> comings. I will say the site is well designed and loads nicely. Bob
>
> Comments and lack of respect for a fellow artist are two different issues. I
> felt a sincere lack of respect regarding this artist. I agree that comments
> are important, don't get me wrong. It's the way the comment is presented in
> this forum. We have no idea as to why prices are the way they are for some
> artists. Artistry goes beyond the limits of materials, workmanship that is why
> we call it art or so I thought. How many people went to that site to check it
> out and made judgements?

Secondly, many artists that don't access the world wide web and have been in
business for years don't price based on someone else's prices, they don't care.
They price by materials, workmanship etc. I would never send someone to the
stated site and "say if you really want to see overpriced go here". That is
absolutely appalling to me. Telling someone to check around to find the best
artist they are comfortable with is what I will usually say. This thread to me
has shown some true colors in some and I am just disgusted. Raise your prices if
you don't feel your getting what your worth. Obviously the aforementioned artist
has and I bet she is loving every minute of it!

Pam



--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


--------------BDE4C7D9F3A28DEAC022C427
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<HTML>
Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>>Bob and Mike if I may speak up here for some people
who are thinking the
<BR>same as me. The artist doesn't care what you think of her work or her
<BR>prices.&lt;&lt;snip&lt;&lt;

<P><I>I bet she does care and will have something to say when this thread
is sent</I>
<BR><I>to her. When a person posts stained glass product for sale and gives
a price</I>
<BR><I>I believe it deserves comment. Would I buy it or not and why. Failure
to</I>
<BR><I>answer these questions makes discussion rather pointless.</I><I></I>

<P><I>Most of us are here to learn and thereby form opinions. I have just</I>
<BR><I>completed a very carefull review of the site and have only steeled
my</I>
<BR><I>OPINION that the work is way far over priced and not very good at
that. Crap</I>
<BR><I>is crap and failure to smell it and report it is not one of my short</I>
<BR><I>comings. I will say the site is well designed and loads nicely.
Bob</I>

<P>Comments and lack of respect for a fellow artist are two different issues.
I felt a sincere lack of respect regarding this artist. I agree that comments
are important, don't get me wrong. It's the way the comment is presented
in this forum. We have no idea as to why prices are the way they are for
some artists. Artistry goes beyond the limits of materials, workmanship
that is why we call it art or so I thought. How many people went to that
site to check it out and made judgements?</BLOCKQUOTE>
Secondly, many artists that don't access the world wide web and have been
in business for years don't price based on someone else's prices, they
don't care. They price by materials, workmanship etc. I would never send
someone to the stated site and "say if you really want to see overpriced
go here". That is absolutely appalling to me. Telling someone to check
around to find the best artist they are comfortable with is what I will
usually say. This thread to me has shown some true colors in some and I
am just disgusted. Raise your prices if you don't feel your getting what
your worth. Obviously the aforementioned artist has and I bet she is loving
every minute of it!

<P>Pam

<P>&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>*********************************

<P>Pamela Burns-Tappan
<BR>Executive Director
<BR>The Stained Glass Artists
<BR><A HREF="http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists">http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists</A>

<P>Moswood Mountain Limited
<BR><A HREF="http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited">http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1">http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1</A>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------BDE4C7D9F3A28DEAC022C427--

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:33:31 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Stained Glass in Mosque
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:46:36 +0000
Message-ID: <199902111739.MAA16085@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> of it, and was looking at the wonderful glass behind the casket 

It's actually been posited that the earliest "stained glass" was let 
into openings in stucco surrounds in the Middle East.

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:39:37 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 10:31:28 -0800
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I think who ever did her web site goofed and added an extra 0 to all of
her prices.
Speaking of.
I like seeing the price of an item beside that item.  I don't like
having to look around the site to see what the price is.
What do the rest of you think about that?
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:56:56 1999
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To: Linda Letscher <andor@fair.net>
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Subject: Re: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:58:19 -0500
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Linda Letscher wrote:

> Did anyone happen to watch King Hussein's funeral?  I happen to catch part
> of it, and was looking at the wonderful glass behind the casket and people
> stepping up to pay honor to the dead King.  I kept watching hoping that the
> camera would pan around and let us see more of the wonderful work.  I guess
> this was a private mosque in the palace.  I was wondering who did it, and
> what the window depected...  Guess I will never know.
> Linda Jo
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 11:56:59 1999
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X-Path: fidnet.com!dawnm
From: "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Original Intent of Message Re:  Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:00:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.4034.0>
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Just like any other form of communication, with e-mail we
sometimes stray from the original question and get caught up in
the resulting controversy.  Before we waste time in a dispute I'd
like to turn this back to the crux of my question:

        >When someone has requested advice regarding pricing in the
        >past, primarily the same people respond.  Is it my limited
        >knowledge and a very small cross section of bungi that has lead
        >me to believe that the bungi responses were the norm??

My reason for asking about the "normal" prices charged is very
simple, and not based in jealousy.  I am a hobbyist and do not sell
anything I create.  What I create I create for my own enjoyment.
Having said that, I am running out of room at home and I am going
to move some of my larger panels to my office.  If someone should
approach me and want something I made, I would not object to
letting them have it for a *fair* price since that will just allow me to
buy more glass.  Therefore, I thought I should at least have a *fair*
pricing structure in mind.

Now I know we have had discussions in the past about how under-
valuing your work is not just detrimental to you, but to other glass
artists.  I happen to pay the mortgage with a paycheck from a
salaried position.  So, if I let go of a piece for the cost of the
materials and a small pittance for my time, what does that do to the
other serious glass artists that are struggling with the blood, sweat
and tears of actually trying to make a living doing this?  (It is only
through my exposure to bungi that I came to realize this.)

Likewise if I price based on comparison of prices on websites and
I overprice the item, yes, I just might sell it to someone who would
unknowingly pay the inflated price.  But that's not something I would
want to do, especially to business associates I will be working with
for years.  So we're back to what is a fair price in the real-world.
Therefore, I do believe discussions on undervaluing/overpricing do
have a place.

This is evidently a contentious subject that might just be best
dropped.  The fact that we inevitably end up comparing apples
and oranges doesn't help.  You just can't compare the value of the
caliber of work done by Dani, Howard, Bob Oddy and other
distinguished artists to the level of work I produce.  That is why I
specified a particular site, because it was more run-of-the-mill and
wasn't painted and fired, plated with layers, full of bevels and wasn't
Tiffany-style lamps.

Thank you to those that replied to me with pricing suggestions.

I use Bungi as a learning tool, and I certainly wouldn't mind hearing
solicited critiques of particular pieces. It might help those of us still in
the learning process.  I am in the process of designing a new window
and would be interested to hear the advice,  suggestions and even
the criticisms on it. I'm willing to offer it up for your unabashed opinions
when completed.

Dawn


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 12:01:22 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
To: nadinesfolly@erols.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:52:24 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.185224.0>
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My big scare of the week........I was unloading sheets of glass from a crate
and cutting the sheets up for a smaller storage bin.   I was working
practically naked in sandals, shorts and a tank top, it is 80 degrees here.
So you all can picture what happened.  I was careless (although I didn't even
realize what I was doing) and picked up a full sheet from a flat surface
across the short end at about 1/3 of the way up AND the sheet just snapped in
half, right in my hands.  The end closer to me scraped down my entire left
side before it hit the floor.   The crash was noisy and drew a crowd.   I have
a large scrape on my left arm, several cuts on my left leg and ankle and a big
piercing in my right palm.  But most of all, I am reminded of how serious this
could have been, could have hit a major artery or required stitches.  I am
still thinking of all the glass people I know with major scars from glass
injuries and think I narrowly escaped this time. Today I went to work in
closed shoes, long sleeves and pants and a  renewed respect for glass.  All
this in the wake of all the Bungi talk of student injury and lawsuits, and
this happened to me a "PROFESSIONAL".  SAFETY FIRST.  LUANNE
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 12:06:22 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:07:31 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 5:52:24 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

Albert,
   Thank you for finding the waiver info.  I have bookmarked both sites for
future  students.    
Luanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 12:25:52 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:29:57 +0000
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> "A man who works with his hands is a laborer.
> A man who works with his hands and head is a craftsman.
> A man who works with his hands, head and heart is an artist."

Yes, and a person who decides into which of the three above 
categories someone *else fits is a critic. <smile>

(If you decide that about yourself, it's something different.)

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 12:49:41 1999
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To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: House & Garden article
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:06:11 -0500
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March issue of H & G has an article on Toots Zynsky's fused bowls. Check
it out. Beautiful & interesting
K See

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 12:53:49 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:59:03 EST
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Suzanne,
   Seriously, I have been teaching since 1980 without any release forms.  I
must say that I have met the nicest people through teaching and have
established long term friendships with many students.  It is wonderful to
share the love of glass and to see new students fall in love with glass.  I
always say to a bleeding student "Now you can honestly say you have put your
blood, sweat and tears into this project."

LUANNE
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:02:06 1999
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X-Path: softhouse.com!giapet
From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:40:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.9407.0>
Precedence: bulk

My 2� worth.  I suspect this woman is an Excellent Salesperson.  I think
one reason she able to get these high prices has as much to do with
"selling herself" as it does selling her work.  Would you buy insurance
or a car you really liked from a salesman you didn't care for?  I
wouldn't.  All top salespeople have one thing in common, the ability to
sell themselves.

Karen


>Ya gets what ya pays for....?
>A sucker born every minute....?
>
>It pays to shop around....!
>
>Linda Campbell
>
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>


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:08:56 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: bshep@dircon.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:40:47 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 5:09:08 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bshep@dircon.co.uk writes:

<< I believe that stained glass is worth what one person will sell it for and
 another will buy it for >>


That certainly is the bottom line.  Stained glass is also a craft which means 
that anyone can do it.  Using a pattern and glass recommendations will result
in an appealing product.  Because of this fact, there will always be a huge
variance 
both price and quality.  

Another reality is that most people are poorly equipped to judge quality in
stained glass.
Good marketing suggests people by sizzle not hogs.

The result is that a stained glass craftsperson with marginal skill and
excellent self promotion can do well - however it's probably true in many
fields of endeavor.
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:34:41 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'PDRUSS@aol.com'" <PDRUSS@aol.com>, "glass@bungi.com"
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:53:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.95314.0>
Precedence: bulk


 I think, as a group we should be able to dish out criticism as well as 
praise. We were quick to praise Robert Oddy's work when we found it and 
rightly so. I don't think anyone would have thought twice had they seen 
similar price tags on Oddy's work because his work was clever, good, 
original and pleasing art. The woman on the site in question takes the same 
pattern, makes it several times for different folks and still calls it 
"original".  If I were to have paid her price for an "original", I'd be 
real ticked off the see the same thing - different color - in my friend's 
home. Not much worry here for me though. Even if I won the lottery, there 
are plenty of others' works I pay for first!

Linda 
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:36:06 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:48:54 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 6:02:50 AM Pacific Standard Time, HiimLaura@aol.com
writes:

<< There is right, and there is wrong. To blatantly overcharge a consumer who
 probably does not know the difference between mediocre and superior
 workmanship (and this includes quality of design, ie: flow of lines,
placement
 of lines, etc.) is wrong. >>

Excuse me, but our entire capitalistic system is based on this premise.  The 
market decides price.  There is no monopoly on stained glass.  Consumers 
can shop around, educate themselves and make wise purchases.  That's why
we call it a "free" market.  

We're talking truth, justice and the American Way.



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:44:36 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:16:04 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.4164.0>
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>>How many people went to that site to check it out and made =
judgements?<<

Here is the link: http://www.stainedglassart.com    Check it out. On =
page 1 go to the lady in red and click on it to enlarge. Having done =
that, just look at her head. The run off lines make her grotusque in =
IMO. Check out that parasol, again looks like basic beginner work IMO. =
Check out the text and see if you get that message fron the pic. =
$3500.00! IMO this panel is not worth the cheap glass it is made from. I =
would say that the basic materials have lost value by being used in this =
way.

Go to the lamp section. At first sight the grape lamp looked good. Click =
it up to larger size and note that it is a four sided lamp. I would =
expect it to at least be made on a rounded form. $3500.00! I think not =
but it is still a nice item for a home craft.

Go over the boxes. Pretty=3D yes. $500.00=3D no way. No wonder the maid =
broke them!

I believe that much can be learned from this site and no one need be =
offended.

Am I crying sour grapes because I can not get these prices? I think not =
because I would not long consider such a misuse of client trust.=20

Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&gt;&gt;How many people went to that =
site to=20
check it out and made judgements?&lt;&lt;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Here is the link: <A=20
href=3D"http://www.stainedglassart.com">http://www.stainedglassart.com</A=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Check it out. On page 1 go to the lady in red and click on it to =
enlarge. Having=20
done that, just look at her head. The run off lines make her grotusque =
in IMO.=20
Check out that parasol, again looks like basic beginner work IMO. Check =
out the=20
text and see if you get that message fron the pic. $3500.00! IMO this =
panel is=20
not worth the cheap glass it is made from. I would say that the basic =
materials=20
have lost value by being used in this way.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Go to the lamp section. At first sight the grape =
lamp looked=20
good. Click it up to larger size and note that it is a four sided lamp. =
I would=20
expect it to at least be made on a rounded form. $3500.00! I think not =
but it is=20
still a nice item for a home craft.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Go over the boxes. Pretty=3D yes. $500.00=3D no way. =
No wonder the=20
maid broke them!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I believe that much can be learned from this site =
and no one=20
need be offended.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Am I crying sour grapes because I can not get these =
prices? I=20
think not because I would not long consider such a misuse of client=20
trust.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D6>Bob</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow =
Stained Glass=20
92026<BR>Please note new address of:&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:bobdu@prodigy.net">bobdu@prodigy.net</A></FONT></DIV></BOD=
Y></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:52:04 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!PDRUSS
From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: [Fwd: VIRUS ALERT......]
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:59:25 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 1:59:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

<< 
 
 > >>  Forward this
 > >> letter out to as many people as  you can. 
 
 On the other hand, forwarding the message to as many people as you 
 can jams up email servers, clogs everyone's hard drives, 
 etc. >>



Can we say SPAM?  :)


Dianne  >^..^<
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 13:59:20 1999
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X-Path: socent.org!atf
From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: Linda Letscher <andor@fair.net>, "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:25:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.10252.0>
References: <<36C31A3B.5B86D695@socent.org>>
Organization: SOC Enterprises
Precedence: bulk

My message was lost...This is what I said

I too noticed the windows and thought of bungi and knew you were all trying like
me to see as much detail the tv allowed.  :)  K See

ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:

> Linda Letscher wrote:
>
> > Did anyone happen to watch King Hussein's funeral?  I happen to catch part
> > of it, and was looking at the wonderful glass behind the casket and people
> > stepping up to pay honor to the dead King.  I kept watching hoping that the
> > camera would pan around and let us see more of the wonderful work.  I guess
> > this was a private mosque in the palace.  I was wondering who did it, and
> > what the window depected...  Guess I will never know.
> > Linda Jo
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:03:19 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:29:39 -0600
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> I would never send someone to the stated
> site and "say if you really want to see overpriced go here". That is absolutely appalling to me. Telling someone to check around
> to find the best artist they are comfortable with is what I will usually say.


That was not at all what I said.  You misunderstood me.  No one had
complained about my prices. And I didnt send them to other sites to
price compare.  I sent them to see what people were doing with stones.
I never once said..."Look at their prices and compare them to mine."

I will stand by the statement, that it doesnt bother me a bit for people
to see that my prices are not only fair, but my work is quality work...

I said to *you* folks, that it doesnt bother me at all that their work
was (in my opinion) over priced.  Not only were my prices better, but so
was my quality.  I will be the first to tell even a potential buyer that
a particular stone is not my best work, and I *will not* charge full
price for something that isnt top quality.   I can back that up with
names and phone numbers of people that I wouldnt take full price from..

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:21:49 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:41:47 -0500
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Hi Brian-

When it comes to defining art, I always like to start with the dictionary=
. =

When one looks up the words "art" and "artist",
one will find some inherent concepts that offer very good =

guidelines for the judging.  A simple exercise, but very very
enlightening.  ;-)

best,

Dani Greer

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:32:58 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:41:55 -0500
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Okay, could someone post this gal's URL again so I can look up the site. =

I'm dying of curiosity now!

;-)

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:47:56 1999
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu Feb 11 12:42:25 1999
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Albert

Hate to disagree with you but it seems she has roots in $P$R$I$N$C$E$T$O$N$
NJ. (The dollar signs are silent but always present.) The area code suggests
that she moved across the river to Pa. 

Knowing Princeton her prices begin to make sense. For those who don't know
the area I'll try to explain. 

Princeton is a historic, read pre-revolution, town. Currently it's
population falls into four main groups. Old time residents who bought their
homes prior to 1970 and are being forced out due to escalating prices and
taxes. University students; a fairly transient group. Senior university
professors and administrators.  Newer residents who can afford the escalated
prices and think name brands are always better than unknowns. Most of this
last group are of the type Albert mentioned. They would rather brag about a
mediocre piece that cost $5000 than a quality piece that cost $500. 

I should explain that I spent a lot of time in the area in the late '70s and
80's. Most of the time was spent with people in the first group. Most of
their homes predate the WWII building boom and had some beautiful
architectural features. Most of them were also retired or approaching it. As
housing prices rose properties were reassessed and many long time residents
were facing taxes higher than the mortgage.  One couple would be paying
about one half of the purchase price each year in taxes. (They bought the
house in 1946 with his military back pay as the down payment.) Families were
forced to sell homes of 20 plus years and move to more affordable areas.

The people who bought these houses were mostly yuppies and those of
inherited wealth. People to whom status is important and money is how status
is measured. Those who survived the recession of the late 80's now have more
money than they know what to do with. As I said they look at the price tag;
if it is expensive it must be good.

If I sound a little bitter toward the new residents it is because I am.
Friend and neighbors were now scattered across the country. They turned
historic old building into modern structures. Something like tearing down a
100 year old church and erecting a glass and chrome building in its place.
Both have there place but the old world beauty is lost. 

One last description and I'll get off my soapbox. Take the high price
sections of Manhattan put them in a small area of New Jersey and you have
Princeton.
 
Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Albert Lewis [mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
		Sent:	Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:57 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE:Disparity in Pricing


		> I went to that site and thought her work was beautiful.
She may have a
		> clientele in a large city (NYC or SanFran.) that is
willing to pay 
		that price

		Nope, although everyone in those cities can see her site.
She's

		Kopcsandy, Leah (STAINEDGLASSART-DOM)
		   306 West Bridge Street
		   Morrisville, PA 19067-2302


		Albert
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<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: Disparity in Pricing</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Albert</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hate to disagree with you but it seems =
she has roots in $P$R$I$N$C$E$T$O$N$ NJ. (The dollar signs are silent =
but always present.) The area code suggests that she moved across the =
river to Pa. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Knowing Princeton her prices begin to =
make sense. For those who don't know the area I'll try to explain. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Princeton is a historic, read =
pre-revolution, town. Currently it's population falls into four main =
groups. Old time residents who bought their homes prior to 1970 and are =
being forced out due to escalating prices and taxes. University =
students; a fairly transient group. Senior university professors and =
administrators.&nbsp; Newer residents who can afford the escalated =
prices and think name brands are always better than unknowns. Most of =
this last group are of the type Albert mentioned. They would rather =
brag about a mediocre piece that cost $5000 than a quality piece that =
cost $500. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I should explain that I spent a lot of =
time in the area in the late '70s and 80's. Most of the time was spent =
with people in the first group. Most of their homes predate the WWII =
building boom and had some beautiful architectural features. Most of =
them were also retired or approaching it. As housing prices rose =
properties were reassessed and many long time residents were facing =
taxes higher than the mortgage.&nbsp; One couple would be paying about =
one half of the purchase price each year in taxes. (They bought the =
house in 1946 with his military back pay as the down payment.) Families =
were forced to sell homes of 20 plus years and move to more affordable =
areas.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The people who bought these houses =
were mostly yuppies and those of inherited wealth. People to whom =
status is important and money is how status is measured. Those who =
survived the recession of the late 80's now have more money than they =
know what to do with. As I said they look at the price tag; if it is =
expensive it must be good.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If I sound a little bitter toward the =
new residents it is because I am. Friend and neighbors were now =
scattered across the country. They turned historic old building into =
modern structures. Something like tearing down a 100 year old church =
and erecting a glass and chrome building in its place. Both have there =
place but the old world beauty is lost. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">One last description and I'll get off =
my soapbox. Take the high price sections of Manhattan put them in a =
small area of New Jersey and you have Princeton.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Albert Lewis [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net">mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.ad=
elphia.net</A>]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:57 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE:Disparity in Pricing</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I went to that site and thought =
her work was beautiful.&nbsp; She may have a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; clientele in a large city (NYC =
or SanFran.) that is willing to pay </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that price</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nope, although everyone in those =
cities can see her site. She's</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Kopcsandy, Leah =
(STAINEDGLASSART-DOM)</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 306 West Bridge =
Street</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; Morrisville, PA =
19067-2302</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Albert</FONT>
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:54:29 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:41:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.44132.0>
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>>I like seeing the price of an item beside that item.  I don't like
having to look around the site to see what the price is.
What do the rest of you think about that?
Shirley B<<

I too like to see the price of an item conviently displayed. When it is not
I tend to wonder if it is to high for what is being offered. When I am asked
to enquire for pricing I simply press my close button. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 14:57:16 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Original Intent of Message Re:  Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:27:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.112735.0>
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Hi Dawn-

Whatever you sell your work for, it's important to remember that you're
raising the visibility of glass art.  The more glass out there, the more
it's in the consciousness of the public.  Folks often complain about all
the off-shore glass being imported... I say, bring it on!  The more
merchants who stock glass, the more places I can refer customers.  I can'=
t
meet demand in my town... we're at a point where we've had to specialize
and raise our prices to cull our market.  And, I'm running out of studios=

to send people to, because we're all so swamped.  And, because of it, we'=
re
losing customers... people are finding alternatives to stained glass
because our S.G. industry here can't meet the demand.  We could use about=

three studios that do nothing but affordable cabinet doors, beveled
entries, etc.  Nothing fancy... just straightforward, attractive
architectural glass.  There are four decent studios in this town (includi=
ng
us, and we specialize in liturgical glass now and kiln-fired glass
painting), 500,000 in the county expected to grow to 900,000 population b=
y
the year 2010.  Is there some opportunity here, do you think??!!  And, yo=
u
should see the honker houses they're building with tons of huuugggge
windows!  Especially over the bath tubs!  If only 1% of the population
decided they needed obscuring stained glass over their tubs, that would b=
e
5,000 commissions for four studios.  Uh huh, we'd have to hire the entire=

bungi group to meet the demand!  You see my point... the opportunity is
there if the industry as a whole raises its visibility.
Does that make sense?  So don't protect your own turf!  Get together with=
 a
few other glass artists and run a big ad together and promote the art...
it'll mean more business for everyone!  Competition is good for everybody=
. =

And, just for the record, so is controversy.  No need to be afraid of tha=
t
either .... as long as everyone is respectful to each other.  I still thi=
nk
Albert is wrong about government funding of the arts, but I respect and
adore him anyone.  He's still my friend.... even if he is wrong.  (duckin=
g
quickly and running for cover..... ;-0!) By the way, Dawn, the crucifixio=
n
window is Michael's... giving credit where it's due.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 15:11:37 1999
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From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: o/t multiple copies of the same piece of art. was Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:13:47 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.211347.0>
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 2/11/99 2:50:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, lcbell@memach.com
writes:

<<  If I were to have paid her price for an "original", I'd be  real ticked
off the see the same thing - different color - in my friend's  home. >>


I haven't done any "fine glass" shows but I've been to some 2D art shows (not
as an artist) that tell you that you can't have multiple copies of the same
piece of art. 

Then you go in and look at the show and see the same piece of art in photo
prints, laser prints or whatever in different sizes.  When I asked about that,
I was told that different sizes or different coping methods count as
"different pieces" even if the subject is the exact same thing. 
You can have: 
one 5x7 laser print, 
one 8x10 laser print ,
one 11x14 laser print,
so on & so on of the same piece of art. And also have 
 one 5x7 photo print 
one 8x10 photo print ............
And they are all "different pieces" no multiples.

I don't understand that. 


Dianne   >^..^<
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 15:21:22 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:27:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.112731.0>
Precedence: bulk

THANK YOU for sharing that Luanne... anyone who has had a "close call" ha=
s
endless and forever respect for the material.  It only takes a few second=
s
to sever all the tendons in your hand or chop off your toes... sorry to b=
e
graphic, but it's always a very real possibility when handling large shee=
ts
of glass.  It doesn't take much to end a glass career.  Don't be stupid. =

Be safe.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 15:29:06 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:48:04 +0000
Message-ID: <199902112141.QAA18803@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk

> The woman on the site in question takes the same 
> pattern, makes it several times for different folks and still calls it 
> "original".  If I were to have paid her price for an "original", I'd be 
> real ticked off the see the same thing - different color - in my friend's 
> home. 

Wait a minute! <grin> She said the pieces are original, not unique. 
If she designed and built them, they're original. She didn't say 
there are no others like them.

I have a Marc Chagall print that's original. Sure, he printed 
hundreds of them, but it's still from his hand and I value it for 
that. (Don't get all impressed; I paid like $15 for it 30 years ago.)

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 15:31:30 1999
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X-Path: wasatch.com!edge
From: edge@wasatch.com (Brian Edginton)
To: glass@intrastar.net
Content-Type: text
Subject: Re: Stained glass for sale
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:51:38 -0700 (MST)
Message-ID: <m10B41K-000bNrC@mail.wasatch.com>
References: <<00a801be5605$ea689420$ca839cd1@default>>
Precedence: bulk

Bob D writes:
> 
> On another list we are discussing the merits of the stained glass at: =
> http://www.stainedglassart.com =20
> 

Merits? I think not, rather the tone of the thread has been to trash
the work and bash the audacity of the artist who charges those prices.

> It might prove interesting to check out this site and comment on the =
> offerings. Bob


I hope this list shows a bit more restraint.


-- 
Brian Edginton                    |  edge@wasatch.com
Edginton and Associates           |  http://www.wasatch.com/~edge/
Systems Consulting                |  801.567.0740
                                  | Opinions expressed are...
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 15:50:03 1999
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From: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Advice on first tools
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:01:00
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.610.0>
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Hi...I just joined on a few weeks ago, but I have already learned a lot from the artisans on this list!

Quick question...I am a new student, but plan on becoming a serious hobbyist.  I am looking at buying my first grinder and band saw, and was interested in the PowerKits modular system featured in the Inlaid catalog.

Has anyone had any experience with this set?  I have been told by some that it is not available in the U.S. yet, while another man said he could get it for me if I wanted to order it.

Is it a good deal for the money, or do you have a better recommendation for a newbie?


____________________________________________________________________
Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 16:08:31 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:42:29 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.64229.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

I've pondered all the points well made. My initial reaction to the
critical post, was to me it was border line slamming. That is was "irked
my tater" as my daughter would say. Criticism is healthy yes, over
pricing hey we have all done it one time or another. It was the way the
post was presented in the first place, it was the way I personally
interpreted it.

Bob and all you were merely being brutally honest with your opinions and
I'm not saying that I don't disagree with some of them. This is a tough
business we're in it's a challenge for all of us.

But I would like to keep criticism of someone's work to a respectful
level here on bungi. If I misunderstood anyone, tulsa suzanne etc. I
apologize. Typing when irritated and tired is not my best call lately as
I can see :) It's also my german blood that gets me in trouble. Maybe
it's time for a glass of wine, a break from classes, a break from the
E-Tour schedule and some popcorn. And mentioning the E-Tour just now. I
will say that we are working our tail ends off and it will be the event
of the year, well one of the events of the year :)

Pam

--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 16:13:45 1999
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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: <Luanne6556@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:49:46 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.104946.0>
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Luanne,

That sounds about like the classes in my shop. I've taught for about 6 years
and when a new student cuts their finger the first time, I usually
congratulate  them, tell them that they are now an official stained glass
person and hand them a band-aid. I've never had the first problem with
anyone getting upset with it.                         Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Luanne6556@aol.com <Luanne6556@aol.com>
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>; glass@bungi.com
<glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability


>Suzanne,
>   Seriously, I have been teaching since 1980 without any release forms.  I
>must say that I have met the nicest people through teaching and have
>established long term friendships with many students.  It is wonderful to
>share the love of glass and to see new students fall in love with glass.  I
>always say to a bleeding student "Now you can honestly say you have put
your
>blood, sweat and tears into this project."
>
>LUANNE
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 16:53:20 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: prices
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:52:22 -0500
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Okay, I've fully perused the site and have decided that I am going to
make some more business card holders and charge...um...$150 each.  I'm
worth it.

I'm in the process of setting up spring craft fairs and deciding what to
make for them.  Have to have something new and fresh, y'know.  But I
also need those business card holders, so I'll be searching through my
scrap boxes.

Also have designed a square foot abstract panel to use up some of the
bevels I have around.  It's no sense hording them, is it?  John's made a
nice oak frame for it.  Then there's the mosaic I designed (no, I will
never do KISS again!) of a covered bridge.  New England, you know.

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 16:54:47 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Original Intent of Message Re:  Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 14:55:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.65546.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>My reason for asking about the "normal" prices charged is very
simple, and not based in jealousy.  I am a hobbyist and do not sell
anything I create.  What I create I create for my own enjoyment.
Having said that, I am running out of room at home and I am going
to move some of my larger panels to my office.  If someone should
approach me and want something I made, I would not object to
letting them have it for a *fair* price since that will just allow me to
buy more glass.  Therefore, I thought I should at least have a *fair*
pricing structure in mind.<<

It is very hard to give an estimate for a stained glass panel when the
cartoon, materials and workmanship are not known.

Assuming that you do reasonably good work I would judge a panel like the red
lady at: http://www.artglass.com to be worth from $200.00 to $300.00.

If your panel is more complex, then the price should go up. If your
soldering is below average- then let the low end be your guide. The
referenced panel would seem to have about $75.00 worth of material involved.
Making a profit over cost of material alone of $125.00 to $225.00 should
fit.

I know a man who worked in colored plexiglass by a most unusual technique
that he invented. He priced one of his panels of King Tut at $15,000.00 to
ensure that it would not sell. It did. And he was not overly happy. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:15:54 -0600
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References: <<1999Feb11.44132.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I figure if the price isnt listed it falls into the catagory of 

"If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it"

Suzanne

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> >>I like seeing the price of an item beside that item.  I don't like
> having to look around the site to see what the price is.
> What do the rest of you think about that?
> Shirley B<<
> 
> I too like to see the price of an item conviently displayed. When it is not
> I tend to wonder if it is to high for what is being offered. When I am asked
> to enquire for pricing I simply press my close button. Bob
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 17:37:59 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:18:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.131830.0>
Precedence: bulk

I checked out the site, and Bob, you're so correct about those run-off
lines on the red lady's hat.  The pink lady with the tree in the upper le=
ft
corner is a much better design.  Try not to use those break-lines, folks,=

they're kind of amateurish... you don't need them, or at least they're no=
t
that obvious, with a good design.

My guess is the pricing is a case of wishful thinking.... nothing wrong
with that!  I seriously doubt she has a lot of customers at that price
level, though.  In my neck of the woods, that caliber of work goes for
between $50 - $100 s.f. , not much more.  However, if you do that kind of=

work, and are charging less than $50 s.f., you're under-pricing yourself.=
 =

Yes, you can lose business that way.... lots of it, because your customer=

will wonder if you know what your talking about!  ;-)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 17:41:37 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:03:30 -0800
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Hi all,
Maybe I should keep my mouth shut BUT here's my 2 cents, hmmm, I can't find
that cents key any where...grin.

I have seen the Canadain government spend 5 million dollars on a single
piece of art as described by Brian (although he probably hasn't seen or
heard of it,...grin)... I wasn't asked if I wanted to buy it, but appears
that I have.

And I've also seen 12 lines sandblasted for a price tag of $25,000.00...wish
it had been me, but wasn't.
 
I know of someone else getting religious paintings done for 75.00 sq.ft and
then he charges 800.00 sg.ft to cut some glass for it...this I do find
funny, but it's true.

So if anyone can sell a 20 piece window for 1200.00...so what, it certainly
doesn't bother me.
(I'm working on a piece (32 pieces)...*all spectrum glass* and the price is
900.00, the fellow is happier than H*LL with the price.) 

But it sure is *sad* to see folks jump on someone's else work and say it's
sh*t. And charges too much. I'd truely be horridified (SP)...can't spell
worth beans! 
My opinion is....I guess if she can pull it off...all the power to her. I'm
having more troubles understanding how a guy in Vancouver,BC can sell towels
for 100.00 @ piece and more???...he's making a killing at it both in Canada
and the USA!!!

Cindy...who swore she was going to be quiet because she didn't *fully* read
the last negative thread, but this kinda struck a nerve also.
Have a GOOD day guys...grin!



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 17:46:09 1999
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From: stainglasborzoi@webtv.net (GLORIA DRAG)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Arab Doors
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:27:37 -0500 (EST)
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Recently there were a few lines relating to the stained glass seen at
the funeral of King Hussien.. This reminded me  of a book I bought at
the beginning of my adiction to stained glass.. The book is James
Hubbell's Palace Doors of Abu Dhabi..  His work of art with stained
glass and/or carved wood is magnificent... Fire motiffs made from red
bevels,peacocks, a dove of jewels.. Wish I could share these photos with
bungi.. 
Gloria

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:00:31 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:52:33 -0500
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-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Dani Greer, =

To:     Pamela Burns-Tappan, INTERNET:ptap@pacifier.com
        =

Date:   2/11/99 12:29 PM

RE:     Re: Disparity in Pricing

I disagree, Pam.  I think this is exactly the place to point out that the=

Emporer's new clothes, well, are a bit scant.  Artists through the ages
have always known that when you place your work in the public square, you=

set yourself up for criticism... or praise.  Both sides of the coin are
part of the game.

Best regards,

Dani Greer (who's survived many a critique... good and bad.)
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:06:46 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Fine Arts Crafts shows
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:58:24 -0600
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Anyone here that has done many fine arts/crafts shows ever met or know
Larry Greer, watercolor artist?

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:10:02 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:08:40 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.14840.0>
References: <<1999Feb12.610.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Jennifer Frisbee wrote:
> 
> Hi...I just joined on a few weeks ago, but I have already learned a lot from the artisans on this list!
> 
> Quick question...I am a new student, but plan on becoming a serious hobbyist.  I am looking at buying my first grinder and band saw, and was interested in the PowerKits modular system featured in the Inlaid catalog.
> 
> Has anyone had any experience with this set?  I have been told by some that it is not available in the U.S. yet, while another man said he could get it for me if I wanted to order it.
> 
> Is it a good deal for the money, or do you have a better recommendation for a newbie?
> 
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
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inland grinders are good, but there saws are not. as a begginer i would
get the grinder (the biggest one you can afford). mine is a wizard from
inland. the bandsaw i would recommend is the gemini ringsaw. but you
really don't need one. 98% of all cuts can be and really should be done
by hand.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:25:08 1999
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From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
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Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:17:07 -0000
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  =20
    I certainly understand the concern about liability release - seems a =
certain amount of paranoia comes with aging.  Found a site that might be =
helpful, it's a fill in the blank type, but will need some changes for =
class purposes.  http://reslife.tamu.edu/dived/guide96/Release.htm=20
=20

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certainly understand the concern about liability release - seems a =
certain=20
amount of paranoia comes with aging.&nbsp; Found a site that might be =
helpful,=20
it's a fill in the blank type, but will need some changes for class=20
purposes.&nbsp; <A=20
href=3D"http://reslife.tamu.edu/dived/guide96/Release,eyour">http://resli=
fe.tamu.edu/dived/guide96/Release.htm</A>=20
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:29:37 1999
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: "pj friend" <artglass@waterw.com>
To: <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:18:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.141831.0>
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Well Vic, I hate to disagree with you.....but I know of what I speak.
In fact we are working on a Catholic Church in Princeton and the folks there
are pretty dollar smart.
And artwise too.  I don't think she is fooling anyone but herself with those
prices.  People who collect glass and would pay those prices for artwork
aren't buying her work.  Sorry.  But its true.
I would love to talk with her "clients", they are probably relatives.
I also like the fact she is looking for grant money......lol.  Someone who
sells for those prices is not in need of any grant money. Large commissions
maybe.....grant money Nope.

my best,
pj

Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
-----Original Message-----
From: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:25 PM
Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing


>This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>------_=_NextPart_001_01BE55FD.4E1FDB30
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Albert
>
>Hate to disagree with you but it seems she has roots in $P$R$I$N$C$E$T$O$N$
>NJ. (The dollar signs are silent but always present.) The area code
suggests
>that she moved across the river to Pa.
>
>Knowing Princeton her prices begin to make sense. For those who don't know
>the area I'll try to explain.
>
>Princeton is a historic, read pre-revolution, town. Currently it's
>population falls into four main groups. Old time residents who bought their
>homes prior to 1970 and are being forced out due to escalating prices and
>taxes. University students; a fairly transient group. Senior university
>professors and administrators.  Newer residents who can afford the
escalated
>prices and think name brands are always better than unknowns. Most of this
>last group are of the type Albert mentioned. They would rather brag about a
>mediocre piece that cost $5000 than a quality piece that cost $500.
>
>I should explain that I spent a lot of time in the area in the late '70s
and
>80's. Most of the time was spent with people in the first group. Most of
>their homes predate the WWII building boom and had some beautiful
>architectural features. Most of them were also retired or approaching it.
As
>housing prices rose properties were reassessed and many long time residents
>were facing taxes higher than the mortgage.  One couple would be paying
>about one half of the purchase price each year in taxes. (They bought the
>house in 1946 with his military back pay as the down payment.) Families
were
>forced to sell homes of 20 plus years and move to more affordable areas.
>
>The people who bought these houses were mostly yuppies and those of
>inherited wealth. People to whom status is important and money is how
status
>is measured. Those who survived the recession of the late 80's now have
more
>money than they know what to do with. As I said they look at the price tag;
>if it is expensive it must be good.
>
>If I sound a little bitter toward the new residents it is because I am.
>Friend and neighbors were now scattered across the country. They turned
>historic old building into modern structures. Something like tearing down a
>100 year old church and erecting a glass and chrome building in its place.
>Both have there place but the old world beauty is lost.
>
>One last description and I'll get off my soapbox. Take the high price
>sections of Manhattan put them in a small area of New Jersey and you have
>Princeton.
>
>Vic M.
>Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Albert Lewis [mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net]
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:57 AM
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: RE:Disparity in Pricing
>
>
> > I went to that site and thought her work was beautiful.
>She may have a
> > clientele in a large city (NYC or SanFran.) that is
>willing to pay
> that price
>
> Nope, although everyone in those cities can see her site.
>She's
>
> Kopcsandy, Leah (STAINEDGLASSART-DOM)
>    306 West Bridge Street
>    Morrisville, PA 19067-2302
>
>
> Albert
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to:
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>------_=_NextPart_001_01BE55FD.4E1FDB30
>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
>5.5.2448.0">
><TITLE>RE: Disparity in Pricing</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Albert</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hate to disagree with you but it seems =
>she has roots in $P$R$I$N$C$E$T$O$N$ NJ. (The dollar signs are silent =
>but always present.) The area code suggests that she moved across the =
>river to Pa. </FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Knowing Princeton her prices begin to =
>make sense. For those who don't know the area I'll try to explain. =
></FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Princeton is a historic, read =
>pre-revolution, town. Currently it's population falls into four main =
>groups. Old time residents who bought their homes prior to 1970 and are =
>being forced out due to escalating prices and taxes. University =
>students; a fairly transient group. Senior university professors and =
>administrators.&nbsp; Newer residents who can afford the escalated =
>prices and think name brands are always better than unknowns. Most of =
>this last group are of the type Albert mentioned. They would rather =
>brag about a mediocre piece that cost $5000 than a quality piece that =
>cost $500. </FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I should explain that I spent a lot of =
>time in the area in the late '70s and 80's. Most of the time was spent =
>with people in the first group. Most of their homes predate the WWII =
>building boom and had some beautiful architectural features. Most of =
>them were also retired or approaching it. As housing prices rose =
>properties were reassessed and many long time residents were facing =
>taxes higher than the mortgage.&nbsp; One couple would be paying about =
>one half of the purchase price each year in taxes. (They bought the =
>house in 1946 with his military back pay as the down payment.) Families =
>were forced to sell homes of 20 plus years and move to more affordable =
>areas.</FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The people who bought these houses =
>were mostly yuppies and those of inherited wealth. People to whom =
>status is important and money is how status is measured. Those who =
>survived the recession of the late 80's now have more money than they =
>know what to do with. As I said they look at the price tag; if it is =
>expensive it must be good.</FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If I sound a little bitter toward the =
>new residents it is because I am. Friend and neighbors were now =
>scattered across the country. They turned historic old building into =
>modern structures. Something like tearing down a 100 year old church =
>and erecting a glass and chrome building in its place. Both have there =
>place but the old world beauty is lost. </FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">One last description and I'll get off =
>my soapbox. Take the high price sections of Manhattan put them in a =
>small area of New Jersey and you have Princeton.</FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
></P>
><UL><UL>
><P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
>Message-----</FONT></A>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Albert Lewis [<A =
>HREF=3D"mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net">mailto:alewis@alpha.nad.ad=
>elphia.net</A>]</FONT></B>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
>SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, February 11, 1999 6:57 AM</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE:Disparity in Pricing</FONT>
></P>
><BR>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I went to that site and thought =
>her work was beautiful.&nbsp; She may have a</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; clientele in a large city (NYC =
>or SanFran.) that is willing to pay </FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that price</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nope, although everyone in those =
>cities can see her site. She's</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Kopcsandy, Leah =
>(STAINEDGLASSART-DOM)</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; 306 West Bridge =
>Street</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp; Morrisville, PA =
>19067-2302</FONT>
></P>
><BR>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Albert</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
>to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
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>list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
>glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
>HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
>TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
></P>
></UL></UL>
></BODY>
></HTML>
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:47:03 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:11:14 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.01114.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/11/99 2:40:42 PM, balloch@netbridge.net wrote:

>I like seeing the price of an item beside that item.  I don't like
>having to look around the site to see what the price is.
>What do the rest of you think about that?

I'm with you. The first thing I look for on anything I'm even vaguely
interested in is the price tag, so I know if it's in my "do-able" price range
or if it would be futile to even think about it (in which case I don't care to
waste my time OR the pushy sales rep's discussing it!!!!!!!!!!).

IMO, anyone who won't give you a price up-front either has something to hide
or is otherwise trying to mess with your head. That goes for everything from
Ginsu knives to vacuum cleaners to encyclopedias to real estate to objets
d'art in a gallery (or a web site).

Of course, that's assuming there's a set price - we all know that some things,
like "asking prices" on real estate, are negotiable, but that number had
better be there! If it's an auction situation, I want to see appraisal and
minimum opening bid info right off the bat.


Sparks, feeling even feistier than usual today..........
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 18:50:35 1999
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From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:15:29 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.01529.0>
Precedence: bulk

The other side of the coin (as pointed out by my husband) 

We have long talked of trying to do craft shows. I like to make small things
like boxes. He says we should at least have a few big things to draw in the
customers. OK, I said, "what? "

He responses was, "We could make that fireplace screen we have long talked
about for ourselves and then just take it to "show." If someone tries to buy
it we could put this truly outrageous price on it. That will turn them off and
if they still want it for what price, we just take the $$$$ and make ourselves
a new one."  :)

Dianne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 19:00:50 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
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Subject: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:55:57 -0600
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> the event
> of the year, well one of the events of the year :)


Drinking my nightly wine, Pam, I say come on over girlfriend, there is
plenty for both of us!  

I can honestly say the E tour will be the event of the year for me! ;o)
Thanks for all the hard work you guys are doing.  I am excited.
Sorry I havent gotten back to any of you as to where I gonna be able to
catch it...

now to change the subject...

I am slowly starting to change over my family website to my glass
website (if I could only get my ISP to cooperate).

Several have told me they have never expected their websites to generate
$$ for their checkbook (forget savings).  What I am asking, of you with
glass/studio etc...websites..  Do you get new buyers from your website?
Assuming people like what they see there....what can I expect?
Should I just expect to be able to write off my ISP $ on my taxes?  A
place to send potential clients for an online portfolio? Or...can I
expect to generate sales?

Or can I expect a public critique? ;o)

Thanks.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 19:12:27 1999
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From: "Dean Johnson" <dmj@cyberportal.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:29:18 -0500
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Linda Jo wrote:

> this was a private mosque in the palace.  I was wondering who did it, and
> what the window depected...

I believe Islamic law forbids the use of pictorial representations in a
mosque, so the design must be geometric.

Elizabeth Johnson
dmj@cyberportal.net

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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:25:28 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 5:49:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@aol.com writes:

<< 
 The people who bought these houses were mostly yuppies and those of
 inherited wealth. People to whom status is important and money is how status
 is measured. >>


So, it's OK to take advantage of them?

Sorry, my conscience wouldn't let me.


Dianne >^..^<
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 19:23:17 1999
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From: "pj friend" <artglass@waterw.com>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>, "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:58:34 -0500
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Good evening Pam,

The problem being with someone charging outrageous prices for mediocre work
is that it gives all glass artists a bad name. And I personally think people
have a right to question mediocre work.
Just my personal opinion.

my best,
pj
Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
-----Original Message-----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>I've pondered all the points well made. My initial reaction to the
>critical post, was to me it was border line slamming. That is was "irked
>my tater" as my daughter would say. Criticism is healthy yes, over
>pricing hey we have all done it one time or another. It was the way the
>post was presented in the first place, it was the way I personally
>interpreted it.
>
>Bob and all you were merely being brutally honest with your opinions and
>I'm not saying that I don't disagree with some of them. This is a tough
>business we're in it's a challenge for all of us.
>
>But I would like to keep criticism of someone's work to a respectful
>level here on bungi. If I misunderstood anyone, tulsa suzanne etc. I
>apologize. Typing when irritated and tired is not my best call lately as
>I can see :) It's also my german blood that gets me in trouble. Maybe
>it's time for a glass of wine, a break from classes, a break from the
>E-Tour schedule and some popcorn. And mentioning the E-Tour just now. I
>will say that we are working our tail ends off and it will be the event
>of the year, well one of the events of the year :)
>
>Pam
>
>--
>*********************************
>
>Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Executive Director
>The Stained Glass Artists
>http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
>
>Moswood Mountain Limited
>http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
>http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
>
>
>----
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>

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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:59:05 -0500
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2/11/99 3:41 PM Dani Greer GreerStudios@compuserve.com

>Hi Brian-
>
>When it comes to defining art, I always like to start with the dictionary=
>. =
>
>When one looks up the words "art" and "artist",
>one will find some inherent concepts that offer very good =
>
>guidelines for the judging.  A simple exercise, but very very
>enlightening.  ;-)
>
Yes it was Dani - here's the one that grabbed me:
     the conscious use of skill and creative imagination esp. in the 
production of aesthetic objects - also - works so produced.

Thanks!!!
Suzanne

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 19:32:41 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Pricing stained glass
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:26:56 -0800
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This post has the correct URL, I think! Bob

>>My reason for asking about the "normal" prices charged is very
simple, and not based in jealousy.  I am a hobbyist and do not sell
anything I create.  What I create I create for my own enjoyment.
Having said that, I am running out of room at home and I am going
to move some of my larger panels to my office.  If someone should
approach me and want something I made, I would not object to
letting them have it for a *fair* price since that will just allow me to
buy more glass.  Therefore, I thought I should at least have a *fair*
pricing structure in mind.<<

It is very hard to give an estimate for a stained glass panel when the
cartoon, materials and workmanship are not known.

Assuming that you do reasonably good work I would judge a panel like the red
lady at: http://www.stainedglassart.com to be worth from $200.00 to $300.00.

If your panel is more complex, then the price should go up. If your
soldering is below average- then let the low end be your guide. The
referenced panel would seem to have about $75.00 worth of material involved.
Making a profit over cost of material alone of $125.00 to $225.00 should
fit.

I know a man who worked in colored plexiglass by a most unusual technique
that he invented. He priced one of his panels of King Tut at $15,000.00 to
ensure that it would not sell. It did. And he was not overly happy. Bob
Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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Subject: color me strange
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:43:01 -0600
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wouldnt be the first time...but from one starving artist to some who may
not be quite as broke...but never hurts to get a free shirt, to work
in...

http://petrix.com/shirt
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 20:06:19 1999
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Subject: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:08:56 EST
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I have a different problem to do with pricing.  I finally got around to
shipping my daughter's chandelier that I made her for Christmas (so I'm a
little late, she understands!).  Just to be safe, I insured it for $600.  Good
thing I did because UPS dropped it and dinged it (even though it was marked
FRAGILE) and it arrived with about eight cracks in the shade.  I don't even
want to think about repairing it.  We have called UPS and they will go out and
take a look at it, but does anyone know if I will have a problem getting the
insured amount if I made it myself?  (i.e. I don't have a receipt for it.)
Even though I don't sell my work, I am fairly familiar with prices and feel
that $600 was a fair value for it if it were to be purchased at a quality
stained glass store.  If you valued it at the hours I put into it (I'm rather
fussy and slow) it would be more like $2000 but I'm sure no one would pay it.

Has anyone had a similar experience with UPS or know what I might have to do
to prove that the shade was worth $600?

Thanks a bunch!
Brenda
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:42:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.164235.0>
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Well, I have to agree with Cindy.  Whatever our assessment, and it =

may be true, it's not necessary to use derogatory expressions to
communicate our opinions.  We all have too much class to lower
ourselves using foul language... which really is only a sign of =

small-mindedness.  There are other ways to say it isn't worth the
price tag.... the best way, of course, is to simply not buy it!  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 20:27:40 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:22:16 EST
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Sparks,	AND EVERYONE
		Couldn't help but chuckle with the shoelace bit.
  Thanks for your post, feeling much better today, physically and mentally.
Thanks for the post from Linda Jo and Dani too.  Dani, I did have nightmares
about the end of a career.   What would I do then?   With or without toes?
Luanne
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:42:42 -0500
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I agree ... you should not get a saw until you learn to cut glass well
by hand... This will teach you how to treat the medium with respect.
Glass doesn't like to be cut certain ways..... and you'll learn very =

quickly the ways of glass when you cut by hand........................ I
would even encourage you to skip the grinder for a =

while so you don't become dependent on it and start spending =

a fortune on grinder bits like so so many folks we know.  (You know
who you are out there <smile>)!  Just some thoughts from an old
dawg.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:10:41 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 6:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

<< 
 Wait a minute! <grin> She said the pieces are original, not unique. 
 If she designed and built them, they're original. She didn't say 
 there are no others like them. >>


So what does "one of a kind" mean? 

No others with the exact same design 
or 
no others with the same color glass and the butterfly finding is in a
different place?

Dianne >^..^<


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 21:09:17 1999
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Subject: Re: Arab Doors
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In a message dated 2/11/99 8:47:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
stainglasborzoi@webtv.net writes:

<< Recently there were a few lines relating to the stained glass seen at
 the funeral of King Hussien.. This reminded me  of a book I bought at
 the beginning of my adiction to stained glass.. The book is James
 Hubbell's Palace Doors of Abu Dhabi..  His work of art with stained
 glass and/or carved wood is magnificent... Fire motiffs made from red
 bevels,peacocks, a dove of jewels.. Wish I could share these photos with
 bungi.. 
 Gloria
  >>


I found this book in a used book store many years ago, long before I ever
tried glass. We had stop on a trip just to look around. I looked through many
books in that shop but bought none. But there are something about this book I
just couldn't leave behind. As the car started to pull away I made my husband
stop and I ran back in to buy it. 

 Over the years I would pull it out and drool through it. It is what finally
got me to try glass. Sadly, I will never be this dedicated to making glass as
this true **artist**.

When we first got our computer 2 years ago one of the first things I did was
search for a site for James Hubbell. I finally found one but there are few
photos of his work on it. But there are books and videos to order.
http://www.sandiegoart.com/JHubbell/

I've never seen his work in person ( wrong coast) but over the years I have
looked at many other glass pieces both in life and in books but never felt
what I feel when I look at Hubbell's work--the beauty and the wonder of such
**Art**.



Dianne >^..^<



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 21:55:06 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Restoration-Success
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 20:14:41 PST
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Hi everyone,

Well I just finished soldering the restoration piece I discussed
last week.  It turned out pretty good (I'll post a picture much
later once I've framed and puttied it).

Do I clean the flux off before I putty?  Glass cleaner?
What techniques do you use to clean a leaded panel?

I'm going to use "Old Time Putty" tomorrow and try have it ready for framing
the next day. 


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 22:13:56 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 23:03:16 -0500
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Yes, Suzanne, the key words in the definition are "skill" and =

"creative imagination"!  For those of you who tuned in late,
we're talking about dictionary meanings of "art" and "artist".
Always very enlightening... and the response from the most
verbose is usually, "Hmmm....".

Best,

Dani Greer =

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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:10:35 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.171035.0>
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Given this sad time for his country and the ties to the US I'm sure if you
posed this question to the Jordanian Embassy you would be able to get an
answer and possibly a photo or brochure. I think his wife is/was American.
The name for this kind of design escapes me at the moment, but it is a
repeating pattern and dates back to the Moors (not much of a history buff...
sorry). Anyway you see it many times in tiles. A central tile surrounded by
different tiles. If you look at it for a while a pattern will emerge around
the center tile, then fade back into the original design.

As they say "With age the memory is the second thing to go". hmmmm I don't
remember the first. (8-)


Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 23:13:35 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:17:55 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.171755.0>
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Ain't the free market great?  Just ask Bill Gates, Donald Trump, etc.

Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is that soiled TuTu. I'll sell it cheap
.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the IGGA discount of course). $1 for each time
I've had to repair my gnomon. Because nobody has sent me Bios for this
Saturday's posting (note the segway into the bios). If you want the TuTu
after Saturday it will be $12,001 U.S.


Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 23:31:44 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:26:06 -0600
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Thanks Albert, LOL

may I add .... or a consultant. They don't work with any of the
aforementioned parts (used to be one).



-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>
>> "A man who works with his hands is a laborer.
>> A man who works with his hands and head is a craftsman.
>> A man who works with his hands, head and heart is an artist."
>
>Yes, and a person who decides into which of the three above
>categories someone *else fits is a critic. <smile>
>
>(If you decide that about yourself, it's something different.)
>
>Albert
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 23:44:09 1999
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From: "Ron and Wendy Larson" <larsonrw@pdq.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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Wait a minute! You might have a problem. I am getting 6-8 copies =
(duplicates) of every message tonight. Something is seriously wrong! I =
logged on to check mail and had 300+ glass bungi mail. Please get it =
back to 1 copy per message or take me offline until it is fixed. Thanks!

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 11 23:57:03 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "glass bungi com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Pricing of Bios
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:48:48 -0600
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If I don't get some bios quickly my gnomon will not be worth 2 cents (U.S.,
Canadian, UK, Australian, etc,)

Please help a poor old Irishman in need.

Send your bios to me please for posting.



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 00:07:13 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <PDRUSS@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Arab Doors
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 21:51:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.135132.0>
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>>When we first got our computer 2 years ago one of the first things I did
was
search for a site for James Hubbell. I finally found one but there are few
photos of his work on it. But there are books and videos to order.
http://www.sandiegoart.com/JHubbell/

I've never seen his work in person ( wrong coast) but over the years I have
looked at many other glass pieces both in life and in books but never felt
what I feel when I look at Hubbell's work--the beauty and the wonder of such
**Art**.<<

James Hubbell lives in Julean, CA a few miles from me. He generously opens
his home and studios (read estate) to various educational and worthy causes
several times a year. The tour takes a couple of hours and lets one into a
world where a hobbit would be quite happy. His home is a self made found
treasure.

I could not/would not do some of his body of art but respect it greatly.
This guy has talent coming out of his every breath. Yes, it has over time
made him rather well to do in the banking department.

If you are very interested you might contact the San Diego Art Society and
see when he will let them next run a fund raising tour. Likely next August
or so. Palamor College also has periodic access. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 00:20:23 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley's List" <glass@intrastar.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: News From Spectrum Glass
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:22:55 -0800
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I do not own stock in Spectrum but like to push the product anyway. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Please note new address of:  bobdu@prodigy.net
-----Original Message-----
From: artglass@SpectrumGlass.com <artglass@SpectrumGlass.com>
To: artglass@SpectrumGlass.com <artglass@SpectrumGlass.com>
Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 10:11 PM
Subject: News From Spectrum Glass


Dear Friend:

We've been busy!

There are now 17 colors available in the popular "RR" (Rough-Rolled)
cathedral line and 18 shimmering Art=EDques.  Both lines have grown rapid=
ly,
just as we promised they would.  Rather than bore you with a list of colo=
r
names, we'll invite you to see for yourself:

17 "RR" colors:

http://www.spectrumglass.com/RR

18 Art=EDque colors:

http://www.spectrumglass.com/Artique

Both pages have links to full-size images of every product.

And check out this quarter's Gallery Card, "Merlot."  Artist Chris Cole
used clear "RR" to create the perfect canvas for his winegrape design.
There's a detail of the window on our home page:
http://www.spectrumglass.com

While you're there, admire our new Spectrum T-Shirt and (hot-off-the-pres=
s)
the new "Made with Mosaics" wall poster.  From the home page, follow link=
s
to "GOODIES", then to "Posters" and "T-Shirts".

The newest issue of THE SCORE (#66, March 15, 1999) is available for
download now at:  http://www.spectrumglass.com/LoadZone.html


Thanks, and stay tuned!

Spectrum Glass Company

PS. To our knowledge, everyone receiving this mailing has requested to be
on our e-mailing list. If you would like your name removed from this list
please send us a message with the word "unsubscribe" as the subject and w=
e
will be glad to take you off the list.



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 00:32:24 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: <PDRUSS@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing @ $28.33/hr
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 01:35:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb11.203556.0>
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My 2 cents.

I won't comment on the work at this site but if this person is selling her
work and is able to live well on her profits, god bless her.

However, all that glitters is not gold.

The one thing that caught my attention was in the description of one of her
panels. This panel was priced at $3500.  As she described the work she put
into it she mentions that it took 124 hours to make.  If you do the numbers,
that comes to $28.33 per hour. (My mechanic bills at $80 / hour, and I have
billed at $600 per hour in my profession)

If she gets an faster she will starve herself out of business.

Ciao

Vic
-----Original Message-----
From: PDRUSS@aol.com <PDRUSS@aol.com>
To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>;
glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing


>In a message dated 2/11/99 6:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:
>
><<
> Wait a minute! <grin> She said the pieces are original, not unique.
> If she designed and built them, they're original. She didn't say
> there are no others like them. >>
>
>
>So what does "one of a kind" mean?
>
>No others with the exact same design
>or
>no others with the same color glass and the butterfly finding is in a
>different place?
>
>Dianne >^..^<
>
>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 03:42:24 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 05:15:03 +0000
Message-ID: <199902121008.FAA24234@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> Has anyone had a similar experience with UPS or know what I might have to do
> to prove that the shade was worth $600?

They'll want to see the invoice your company cut for the sale of the 
item, in my experience.

Albert
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 05:20:50 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!CncptThnkr
From: CncptThnkr@aol.com
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: color me strange
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 07:21:55 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 10:49:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
gunnx4@ix.netcom.com writes:

> but never hurts to get a free shirt, to work
>  in...


Hey Suzanne de Tulsa,

I find it fascinating that they send t-shirts free of charge.......I filled in
the request form but changed my first name......let's see what mailing lists I
end up on now.  

IA   (or Cia to the t-shirt people)
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 06:07:22 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Family Account'" <shad@mail2.nai.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: prices
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:02:00 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.320.0>
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Dorothy, if you are serious about the business card holders, I have drawn 
two for medical professions. One is an open mouth with teeth for a dentist, 
the other is nose and eyeglass frames for optician/opthamoligist. Give a 
holler if you'd like jpg files of these and I'll find them this weekend and 
mail from home.

Linda

Okay, I've fully perused the site and have decided that I am going to
make some more business card holders and charge...um...$150 each.  I'm
worth it.

I'm in the process of setting up spring craft fairs and deciding what to
make for them.  Have to have something new and fresh, y'know.  But I
also need those business card holders, so I'll be searching through my
scrap boxes.

Also have designed a square foot abstract panel to use up some of the
bevels I have around.  It's no sense hording them, is it?  John's made a
nice oak frame for it.  Then there's the mosaic I designed (no, I will
never do KISS again!) of a covered bridge.  New England, you know.

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 06:21:36 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Glass holder
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:12:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.31247.0>
Precedence: bulk

I came very close to having a sheet of glass slide off of my work table last
month,right on top of my foot. Also I had trouble with larger squares of
glass sliding on my Morton grid while trying to cut......I cut small strips
of that "no move fabric" that boaters use to keep things from moving around
while out on the water...I'm not sure what it is called and placed them
under the glass...the glass did not budge a bit when I scored....I use it
under my straight edges[Rulers] and anything prone to moving before I want
it to. Hope this helps someone ,it realy works.


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 06:39:50 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: BMarhon@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:40:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.3405.0>
Precedence: bulk

Yes....I had a similar problem.  My father had sent a large oil he
painted, with a solid wood picture frame.  My dad insured it for $500.00.
 The picture arrived in a big box and the wood frame was cracked in half.
 I called UPS and they contacted my dad (who was the shipper).  They came
and picked up the frame, and shipped it back to my dad.  Then, they said
to get a bonafide estimate on reframing the piece and fax it to Mrs. X. 
I did and the total for reframing came to $280.00.  They were quick to
pay and it all worked out.  
It may work differently with your piece, but that was how it worked in my
case.  Hope it works out for you.

Diane Manchester
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 06:56:52 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:59:10 -0500
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2/19/99 12:17 AM Pat Kelly pkelly@n-link.com

>Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is that soiled TuTu. I'll sell it cheap
>.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the IGGA discount of course). $1 for each time
>I've had to repair my gnomon. Because nobody has sent me Bios for this
>Saturday's posting (note the segway into the bios). If you want the TuTu
>after Saturday it will be $12,001 U.S.

Hmmmm...I wonder if a bloody, cracked TuTu could be called art, mounted 
in a case, carted across the country for display (sans wearer, of 
course). Maybe we could use it to help finance the NEA?
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 07:41:30 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
Date: Fri Feb 12 07:12:02 1999
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5697.D05818FC
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I think Toby is willing to bid 1000 pounds.
The question is 1000 pounds of what.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Pat Kelly [mailto:pkelly@n-link.com]
		Sent:	Friday, February 19, 1999 12:18 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE: Price Disparity & stuff

		Ain't the free market great?  Just ask Bill Gates, Donald
Trump, etc.

		Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is that soiled TuTu.
I'll sell it cheap
		.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the IGGA discount of course).
$1 for each time
		I've had to repair my gnomon. Because nobody has sent me
Bios for this
		Saturday's posting (note the segway into the bios). If you
want the TuTu
		after Saturday it will be $12,001 U.S.


		Patrick
		Roses and Rainbows

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I think Toby is willing to bid 1000 =
pounds.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The question is 1000 pounds of =
what.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Pat Kelly [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:pkelly@n-link.com">mailto:pkelly@n-link.com</A>]</FONT></=
B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, February 19, 1999 12:18 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: Price Disparity &amp; =
stuff</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ain't the free market great?&nbsp; =
Just ask Bill Gates, Donald Trump, etc.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is =
that soiled TuTu. I'll sell it cheap</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the =
IGGA discount of course). $1 for each time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I've had to repair my gnomon. Because =
nobody has sent me Bios for this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Saturday's posting (note the segway =
into the bios). If you want the TuTu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">after Saturday it will be $12,001 =
U.S.</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Patrick</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Roses and Rainbows</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 08:43:48 1999
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Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
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Why sans wearer.
Use a large cage instead of a display case, add one cute puppy that likes
mutton and call it performance art.

Ticket sales among Bungi alone could pay for the E-tour.

Vic M. 
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	suzy@comcat.com [mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM]
		Sent:	Friday, February 12, 1999 8:59 AM
		To:	glass bungi line
		Subject:	RE: Price Disparity & stuff

		2/19/99 12:17 AM Pat Kelly pkelly@n-link.com

		>Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is that soiled TuTu.
I'll sell it cheap
		>.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the IGGA discount of course).
$1 for each time
		>I've had to repair my gnomon. Because nobody has sent me
Bios for this
		>Saturday's posting (note the segway into the bios). If you
want the TuTu
		>after Saturday it will be $12,001 U.S.

		Hmmmm...I wonder if a bloody, cracked TuTu could be called
art, mounted 
		in a case, carted across the country for display (sans
wearer, of 
		course). Maybe we could use it to help finance the NEA?
		Suzanne
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Why sans wearer.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Use a large cage instead of a display =
case, add one cute puppy that likes mutton and call it performance =
art.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ticket sales among Bungi alone could =
pay for the E-tour.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; suzy@comcat.com =
[<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM">mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM</A>]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, February 12, 1999 8:59 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass bungi line</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">RE: Price Disparity &amp; =
stuff</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">2/19/99 12:17 AM Pat Kelly =
pkelly@n-link.com</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Ask and ye shall receive. Now =
where is that soiled TuTu. I'll sell it cheap</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the =
IGGA discount of course). $1 for each time</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;I've had to repair my gnomon. =
Because nobody has sent me Bios for this</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Saturday's posting (note the =
segway into the bios). If you want the TuTu</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;after Saturday it will be $12,001 =
U.S.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hmmmm...I wonder if a bloody, cracked =
TuTu could be called art, mounted </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">in a case, carted across the country =
for display (sans wearer, of </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">course). Maybe we could use it to =
help finance the NEA?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Suzanne</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 09:46:12 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
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Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
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>I think Toby is willing to bid 1000 pounds.
>The question is 1000 pounds of what.
>
I heard that bid is good ONLY if it completes complete with owner :)

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 10:06:50 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Original Intent of Message Re:  Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:27:47 -0500
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My pricing scheme:

Price=3D((number of square inches in piece) * complexity factor) * skill
level factor

complexity factor =3D sliding scale of .8 to 1.5 depending on how complex=
 the
piece will be to make. For example, a piece with all straight lines and
simple
curves using easy-to-cut machine-rolled glass (Spectrum) yields a .8
factor.
But a multi-panel installation with plating and/or fired painted glass wi=
th
complex art glass (Youghiogheny or such) yields 1.5.

skill level factor =3D how you rate yourself compaired to other stained g=
lass
artists in the field.  In my first year of professional work I used a 75%=

(multiply by .75) factor because I was still learning and knew that I wou=
ld
improve up to what I consider acceptable professional levels within
a year of steady glass work.  Now my skill level factor =3D 100%.  As I a=
dd
new techniques and win more awards, I will increase the factor.  So a =

Bob Oddy I would rate with a higher skill level such as 150%.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 10:17:09 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Showing the price
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:27:44 -0500
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Message text written by Shirley Balloch
>I like seeing the price of an item beside that item.  I don't like
having to look around the site to see what the price is.
What do the rest of you think about that?<

I do too.  In fact, it was pointed out to me that having the
price easily visible on the item or on a card next to the
item makes customers more at ease about shopping
for glass items.  Many have a fear of having to pick up
an item in order to find the price tag.  They fear breaking
it.  So we should make it as easy as possible for them
to shop our goods.  This includes easy visibility of the
price.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 11:09:33 1999
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To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 11:27:55 -0500
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Message text written by "M. Savad"
>the bandsaw i would recommend is the gemini ringsaw. but you
really don't need one. 98% of all cuts can be and really should be done
by hand.<

Amen, Mike, to the 98%.  I own a Taurus II ring saw also, but find
that the quickest, most accurate method of cutting is by hand for
the vast, vast majority of cuts.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 11:22:38 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:43:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.54333.0>
References: <<1999Feb12.31247.0>>
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Evelyn C Mason wrote:
> 
> I came very close to having a sheet of glass slide off of my work table last
> month,right on top of my foot. Also I had trouble with larger squares of
> glass sliding on my Morton grid while trying to cut......I cut small strips
> of that "no move fabric" that boaters use to keep things from moving around
> while out on the water...I'm not sure what it is called and placed them
> under the glass...the glass did not budge a bit when I scored....I use it
> under my straight edges[Rulers] and anything prone to moving before I want
> it to. Hope this helps someone ,it realy works.
> 
> ----



there's a material that i'm looking for, it's called Dycem. my
grandmother uses it to hold things in place. and i have a small piece
that i use for cutting. glass does not move on this material. i'd love
to get some, the dydem company still has'nt sent their sample. and i'm
still looking for a catalog that sells the stuff.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 11:33:16 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:21:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.5213.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Suzanne wrote:
> 
> > the event
> > of the year, well one of the events of the year :)
> 
> Drinking my nightly wine, Pam, I say come on over girlfriend, there is
> plenty for both of us!
> 
> I can honestly say the E tour will be the event of the year for me! ;o)
> Thanks for all the hard work you guys are doing.  I am excited.
> Sorry I havent gotten back to any of you as to where I gonna be able to
> catch it...
> 
> now to change the subject...
> 
> I am slowly starting to change over my family website to my glass
> website (if I could only get my ISP to cooperate).
> 
> Several have told me they have never expected their websites to generate
> $$ for their checkbook (forget savings).  What I am asking, of you with
> glass/studio etc...websites..  Do you get new buyers from your website?
> Assuming people like what they see there....what can I expect?
> Should I just expect to be able to write off my ISP $ on my taxes?  A
> place to send potential clients for an online portfolio? Or...can I
> expect to generate sales?
> 
> Or can I expect a public critique? ;o)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Tulsa Suzanne
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


possibly. i personally don't sell anything on my page. but i've had
offers or curiosities about selling my work online. though the price
ususually turns them off pretty quickly. currently i just don't trust
people (with money), online. then there is shipping, how do you do the
world? etc.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 11:47:08 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: bungi group <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:24:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.52424.0>
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pj friend wrote:
> 
> Good evening Pam,
> 
> The problem being with someone charging outrageous prices for mediocre work
> is that it gives all glass artists a bad name. And I personally think people
> have a right to question mediocre work.
> Just my personal opinion.
> 
> my best,
> pj
> Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
> www.waterw.com/~artglass
> Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
> Member International Guild of Glass Artists
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Thursday, February 11, 1999 7:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
> 
> >I've pondered all the points well made. My initial reaction to the
> >critical post, was to me it was border line slamming. That is was "irked
> >my tater" as my daughter would say. Criticism is healthy yes, over
> >pricing hey we have all done it one time or another. It was the way the
> >post was presented in the first place, it was the way I personally
> >interpreted it.
> >
> >Bob and all you were merely being brutally honest with your opinions and
> >I'm not saying that I don't disagree with some of them. This is a tough
> >business we're in it's a challenge for all of us.
> >
> >But I would like to keep criticism of someone's work to a respectful
> >level here on bungi. If I misunderstood anyone, tulsa suzanne etc. I
> >apologize. Typing when irritated and tired is not my best call lately as
> >I can see :) It's also my german blood that gets me in trouble. Maybe
> >it's time for a glass of wine, a break from classes, a break from the
> >E-Tour schedule and some popcorn. And mentioning the E-Tour just now. I
> >will say that we are working our tail ends off and it will be the event
> >of the year, well one of the events of the year :)
> >
> >Pam
> >
> >--
> >*********************************
> >
> >Pamela Burns-Tappan
> >Executive Director
> >The Stained Glass Artists
> >http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
> >
> >Moswood Mountain Limited
> >http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
> >http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
> >
> >

yeah that's pretty much it... on one side, it makes the proffesionals
look good. the prices are high, ours are low and you get a better
product. on the other side though, people will look at those prices and
think all stained glass is to expensive and not even want to know what
your stuff looks like. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 11:58:11 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: BMarhon@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:33:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.5337.0>
References: <<1999Feb12.2856.0>>
Precedence: bulk

BMarhon@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a different problem to do with pricing.  I finally got around to
> shipping my daughter's chandelier that I made her for Christmas (so I'm a
> little late, she understands!).  Just to be safe, I insured it for $600.  Good
> thing I did because UPS dropped it and dinged it (even though it was marked
> FRAGILE) and it arrived with about eight cracks in the shade.  I don't even
> want to think about repairing it.  We have called UPS and they will go out and
> take a look at it, but does anyone know if I will have a problem getting the
> insured amount if I made it myself?  (i.e. I don't have a receipt for it.)
> Even though I don't sell my work, I am fairly familiar with prices and feel
> that $600 was a fair value for it if it were to be purchased at a quality
> stained glass store.  If you valued it at the hours I put into it (I'm rather
> fussy and slow) it would be more like $2000 but I'm sure no one would pay it.
> 
> Has anyone had a similar experience with UPS or know what I might have to do
> to prove that the shade was worth $600?
> 
> Thanks a bunch!
> Brenda
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

currently i'm a shipper, and work with UPS. these are my presdictions:

they will say they sent the driver to look at the package. the driver
will say it was'nt packed well enough, and you will get nothing. 

glass is an iffy thing, i packed a stuben thingy, it their own box. the
box with 4 times the size of the crystal, and it was densly packed with
newspaper shreds. it arrived chipped, we had to pay for it. UPS claimed
that it was'nt packed properly (but this is how we got it in the first
place).

when you made the claim, you did'nt by any chance mention you made it
did you? it would be easier to say you bought it. and make up a reciept
for it. use word or something. it really should'nt be decieving anyone,
because this may be the reciept you give to everyone. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 12:02:10 1999
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From: Kay Frith Allen <fullspec@sunset.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Box lid mounting tape
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:47:18 -0800
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Precedence: bulk

Hi,
Does anyone use the Clarity Box Lid Mounting Tape?  I bought some a few
years ago and just got around to using them to hold in the small 6" x 9" SG
insert that goes into the top of those wooden jewelry boxes.  The tape is
another alternative to those framer's points.  The tape is 36 inches of
1/8" thick by 7/32" wide black mounting tape.  Does anyone know where I can
buy more of this item or of something else on the market that is similar?
Kay
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 12:16:31 1999
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From: PDRUSS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Arab Doors
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:36:35 EST
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In a message dated 2/12/99 12:53:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
BOBDU@prodigy.net writes:

<< 
 If you are very interested you might contact the San Diego Art Society and
 see when he will let them next run a fund raising tour. Likely next August
 or so. Palamor College also has periodic access. Bob >>


LOL, Bob, the chances of me getting to CA are about the same as me going to
the moon. But hopfully someone else on the list can go. 

Yes, I have to say when it comes to James Hubbel's work I have a big case of
hero workship.  :)

Dianne >^..^<
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 12:20:23 1999
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From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: email learning curve
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:01:05 -0000
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I have read the emails on formatting, unfortunately have just figured out
how to change format.  Information overload!  Sorry for possibly jibberish -
this should fix.   thanks - Tami

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 12:41:02 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: RE: Price Disparity & stuff
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:50:43 -0500
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2/12/99 10:34 AM Modiano, Victor vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

>Why sans wearer.
>Use a large cage instead of a display case, add one cute puppy that likes
>mutton and call it performance art.
>
Ouch! (Could be you were a gladiator in a former life?)
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 12:43:50 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:24:39 EST
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In a message dated 2/11/99 6:01:43 PM Pacific Standard Time,
GreerStudios@compuserve.com writes:

<< Emporer's new clothes, well, are a bit scant.  Artists through the ages
 have always known that when you place your work in the public square, you >>

Also in this case, I think that the degree of critical harshness was a
function
of the price of the work.  Many people expect premium work for premium dollar.

While you have to admire craftspeople who can get super premium dollar for 
average work...  It is probably better for all us, if consumers are well
educated  
and know what they're paying for.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 13:45:43 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Restoration-Success
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:47:01 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.20471.0>
References: <<m10BA01-00005WC@daver.bungi.com>>
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In message <m10BA01-00005WC@daver.bungi.com>, Glenna Rand
<gjr@bungi.com> writes
>Hi everyone,
>
>Well I just finished soldering the restoration piece I discussed
>last week.  It turned out pretty good (I'll post a picture much
>later once I've framed and puttied it).
>
>Do I clean the flux off before I putty?  Glass cleaner?
>What techniques do you use to clean a leaded panel?
>
OK my method is to brush the cement (a black linseed oil putty) under
the leads with a stiff brush.  If you use the commercial stuff for the
outside of windows, you can make it black by adding carbon black and you
can thin it with white spirit until it like stiff treacle (molasses).
Then it is ready to brush.  The brushing action cleans the glass and the
leads, so no need for cleaning flux off, nor the glass.

After the putty has been brushed under the cames, you add whiting
(Calcium carbonate) to absorb the excess oils.  Then turn the panel.  do
the same to the second side. 

Turn the panel again.  Using the stiff brush scrub at the glass and
leads, add more whiting, scrub some more.  Turn the panel over, do the
same on the other side. 

By this time you should be getting things pretty clean.  So it is time
to get out the soft brush, to finally polish up the glass and lead work.
This will pull colour onto the came and solder joints and make things
shiny black and the glass sparkling.

It takes time.  But if you do it diligently,  it will be ready for
"tomorrow".  standard putty without whiting will take much longer to
become stiff, wont give a shine to the came, and will require window
cleaner (yuck)

Steve
>I'm going to use "Old Time Putty" tomorrow and try have it ready for framing
>the next day. 
>
>

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 14:11:49 1999
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X-Path: softhouse.com!giapet
From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:49:00 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.10490.0>
Precedence: bulk

Mike,

Any store that sells shelf liner or contact paper should carry rolls of
the No-Slip Shelf Liner.  There is a heavy weight and a reg.  My mom uses
this in the motor home to keep dishes and stuff in place.  It is just
like a no-slip router pad that I cut my glass on.

Karen
Think Spring!
giapet@softhouse.com


>Evelyn C Mason wrote:
>>
>> I came very close to having a sheet of glass slide off of my work
table last
>> month,right on top of my foot. Also I had trouble with larger squares
of
>> glass sliding on my Morton grid while trying to cut......I cut small
strips
>> of that "no move fabric" that boaters use to keep things from moving
around
>> while out on the water...I'm not sure what it is called and placed
them
>> under the glass...the glass did not budge a bit when I scored....I use
it
>> under my straight edges[Rulers] and anything prone to moving before I
want
>> it to. Hope this helps someone ,it realy works.
>>
>> ----
>
>
>
>there's a material that i'm looking for, it's called Dycem. my
>grandmother uses it to hold things in place. and i have a small piece
>that i use for cutting. glass does not move on this material. i'd love
>to get some, the dydem company still has'nt sent their sample. and i'm
>still looking for a catalog that sells the stuff.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
>Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
>too and A Look at Sky City
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 14:35:22 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Dean Johnson <dmj@cyberportal.net>
Subject: Re: Stained Glass in Mosque
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:16:50 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.201650.0>
References: <<1999Feb11.142918.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

It is the human figure that is forbidden to be represented in Muslim
cultures. There are lots of plant representations in the Arabic world.
Geometric designs do tend to predominate, but are not exclusive.

Steve (just back from Tunisia)

In message <1999Feb11.142918.0@?>, Dean Johnson <dmj@cyberportal.net>
writes
>Linda Jo wrote:
>
>> this was a private mosque in the palace.  I was wondering who did it, and
>> what the window depected...
>
>I believe Islamic law forbids the use of pictorial representations in a
>mosque, so the design must be geometric.
>
>Elizabeth Johnson
>dmj@cyberportal.net
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 14:36:06 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:57:12 +0000
Message-ID: <199902122108.VAA19904@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
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Hi All,
I myself got a bit surprised when reading this request. The title 
read FIRST tools, so my thoughts immediately went to consider glass 
cutters and why would one be better than another etc, then to grozier 
and breaking pliers and what other FIRST tools to recommend or 
suggest.
Then I read the body of the text....."glass saw".... "glass grinder".
As FIRST tools??!!
Nah, don't think so.
But I am still not well enough to put myself directly in the firing 
line.
Thank you Dani for rising to the occasion (yet again!!). I couldn't 
agree more!
Dear Newbie..... PLEEZE listen to Dani!
Know that my "job-application" at her studio as a "sweeper-upper" was 
rejected! She (and Michael) have still a lot to teach me (who is an 
even OLDER Dawg!!). Affinity and passion about glass comes with 
handling it with your OWN HANDS, not with machines.
On an analogy,  the same mental and physical battle, especially as 
regards a real "hands-on sweat", a kind of mind over matter, the 
challenge and triumphs you will find if you have ever read Ernest 
Hemingway's "The Old Man and The Sea". It's very elemental, yet very 
exciting. Stained glass is a bit like that too.
 And Dani,  you STILL haven't told me what a "chuck-wagon" is.... :-< 
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Dani wrote:
I agree ... you should not get a saw until you learn to cut glass well
by hand... This will teach you how to treat the medium with respect.
Glass doesn't like to be cut certain ways..... and you'll learn very =

quickly the ways of glass when you cut by hand........................ I
would even encourage you to skip the grinder for a =

while so you don't become dependent on it and start spending =

a fortune on grinder bits like so so many folks we know.  (You know
who you are out there <smile>)!  Just some thoughts from an old
dawg.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 14:59:23 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:57:12 +0000
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Dear Suzanne de Tulsa, and ALL,

This is THE admission of the year!!!!
While getting more and more ill, yet  trying last Christmas to 
stretch myself between various families and cook for a flipping army, 
the actual Christmas spirit between Brian, myself, Susan, Toby and 
another couple of very close friends, sort of got rather out of gear.
Half way through February there are still carefully and lovingly 
thought out Christmas presents that have STILL not been exchanged.
WORSE than that..... the Christmas Tree is still standing in the 
dining room, complete with all its decorations!!!!
So, between now and Easter, I and my merry little band of close 
family and "extended" family will yet have a Christmas together.
The Christmas Tree will remain until THEN.
So There!!!!  (And "sod" old wives tales about bad luck!!)

The SECOND most important event of 1999 will be  meeting Suzanne de 
Tulsa's eager face in USA and (from what I gather) many others in her 
position. In the last month there have been an avalanche of very 
enthusiastic, impatient and keen leading questions arriving in my 
mailbox. Even and including from Glenna. I feel pretty "shitty" and 
guilty about the delays in answering, purely and simply from lack of 
"oomphh" and physical energy. I AM getting better, but in that I get 
over-ambitious and then run out of steam. So Glenna has soldered her 
project (we had a bit of an exchange about that and I have let her 
down). Get rid of the flux FIRST Glenna, and then cement!!!
Don't leave the cement and whiting for longer than 24 hours, then get 
a stiff scrubbing brush (or old-fashioned nail brush) and start 
cleaning up the excess through brushing it off fairly vigorously in 
circular motion.

So often I hold back, because I realise that 5 minutes of physically 
demonstrating something, gets rid of weeks of verbal attempts at 
explanations.
Carol, you may think that over an expanse of 14 inches of stained 
glass pieces dressed in lead , the anchoring of the glass and lead by 
7 horse-shoe nails creates a forrest amongst which you find difficult 
to manouvre. Not so!! I would have probably had an additional 10 
nails to anchor down. Yet to move, secure, anchor glass and lead is 
really easy and logical. Yet when you are leading, the "seating" of 
the glass in the lead is all important, the securing and anchoring 
paramount.  I come across this mental block time and time again with 
my own students here in UK. If you don't secure and anchor 
everything, all will shift and dance around, totally screw you up - 
unless you are totally and utterly in control. THAT is the excitement 
about leading!

Suzanne de Tulsa represents to me the bright-eyed 'n bushy tailed 
enthusiastic learner (and potential professional) that really turns 
me on as regards teaching a new generation; adding to which her close 
relationship with Mother Eart . A further attraction  is her very 
earthy appreciation of  what Mother Nature REALLY intended to do with 
the grape........

There are a few things up in the air here; the Allentown happenings 
are currently a "moving feast".  The E-Team are working their socks 
off (for nothing other than Love and Thin Air) to make it all hang 
together. I myself have still to get well enough,  to make personal 
contact with individual people/companies who have committed 
themselves to sponsor the tour that is very much designed to be a 
dialogue between You and I.......
Could you.....would you.... possibly..... hang on to your "leading 
problems until then.....  ???
We'll have great fun!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK





Drinking my nightly wine, Pam, I say come on over girlfriend, there is
plenty for both of us!  

I can honestly say the E tour will be the event of the year for me! ;o)
Thanks for all the hard work you guys are doing.  I am excited.
Sorry I havent gotten back to any of you as to where I gonna be able to
catch it...

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 15:12:16 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:57:12 +0000
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Linda,
would it be too much of a bother to include me in your jpg despatch 
of these business cards holders....?
Many, many thanks.
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Dorothy, if you are serious about the business card holders, I have drawn 
two for medical professions. One is an open mouth with teeth for a dentist, 
the other is nose and eyeglass frames for optician/opthamoligist. Give a 
holler if you'd like jpg files of these and I'll find them this weekend and 
mail from home.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 15:24:11 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:57:12 +0000
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Hi All,
Byzantine, Patrick m'dear, Byzantine....
Shame on you not to keep your tu-tu in tip-top condition, seeing that 
the time of reckoning is drawing closer and closer.
Elisabeth 'n Toby in  UK

Patrick wrote:
<The name for this kind of design escapes me at the moment, but it is 
a repeating pattern and dates back to the Moors (not much of a 
history buff... sorry). Anyway you see it many times in tiles. A 
central tile surrounded by different tiles. If you look at it for a 
while a pattern will emerge around the center tile, then fade back 
into the original design.

As they say "With age the memory is the second thing to go". hmmmm I don't
remember the first. (8-)


----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 15:40:31 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <JJKIRBY@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:42:33 -0800
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>>Also in this case, I think that the degree of critical harshness was a
function of the price of the work.  Many people expect premium work for
premium dollar.<<

Very true in my case. If I had it to do again, I would tone down the
comments while getting the same point across. Dealing with a web site owned
by someone that I do not know really does not call for increasing the
sharpness of my attack. Critical comments can be made with a smile.

When S of Tulsa gets on line I will do a far better job. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Have class, think glass.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 15:55:17 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:JJKIRBY@aol.com" <JJKIRBY@aol.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:53:40 -0500
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Amen!  I always encourage customers to go to every glass shop
in town and compare portfolios as well as prices.  That helps =

them establish standards... it is, as you say, an education and =

most consumers are pretty smart.  I always point out to folks
that our prices are a bit higher (maybe), but we offer some things
that other studios don't - like kiln-fired glass painting and one-of-
a-kind work that's also designed specifically for their location.
And, design and installation is included in the price.  I still chuckle
about the couple that was in a while back going through our
portfolios.... the husband says to the wife, "Wow, this stuff is
like real art!"  Hmmmm.... now there's a concept, I thought to
myself.  At any rate, I know that they were better able to judge
glass art having taken the time to visit numerous studios.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 16:22:26 1999
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Subject: That site was: disparity, etc.
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:42:11 -0500
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I hope you all realized that she's used up a really good URL.

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 16:40:32 1999
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From: "Julia Moseley" <juliam@mindspring.com>
To: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:31:14 -0800
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My dentist is fantastic, and I'd love to see the JPG of the business card
holders too. It would be a fun present to give to Dr. Gail! :-)

Julia
-----Original Message-----
From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 12, 1999 1:09 PM
Subject: RE: prices


>Linda,
>would it be too much of a bother to include me in your jpg despatch
>of these business cards holders....?
>Many, many thanks.
>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
>
>Dorothy, if you are serious about the business card holders, I have drawn
>two for medical professions. One is an open mouth with teeth for a dentist,
>the other is nose and eyeglass frames for optician/opthamoligist. Give a
>holler if you'd like jpg files of these and I'll find them this weekend and
>mail from home.
>
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 17:19:52 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:36:17 -0600
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References: <<199902122108.VAA19900@saturn.nildram.co.uk>>
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> Suzanne de Tulsa represents to me the bright-eyed 'n bushy tailed 
> enthusiastic learner (and potential professional) that really turns 
> me on as regards teaching a new generation; adding to which her close 
> relationship with Mother Eart . A further attraction  is her very 
> earthy appreciation of  what Mother Nature REALLY intended to do with 
> the grape........


Oh God, I'm sooooo scared!  But very excited.  And Elisabeth, you are so
sweet to me.  You just can't know how much I appreciate you.

Anyone have any suggestions as to a good first lead panel to do?  Not
too easy, but not too hard? lol...  Actually, would be good to have the
problems pop up with Elisabeth by my side rather than when I am home by
myself. So a little challenge would be good.  Everytime I look at a
panel with any detail, I can't imagine how you do it with lead came.
Do you miter *every* joint??? ARGHHHHHH. ;o)  Visualising something
grotesque from this lead newbie!  You want it to be about 12"x12", is
that right? 

I *still* dont know *where I am going to meet you, Elisabeth...but
hoping I can follow you to more than one spot! ;o)

Gotta go fluff my tail, ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne, who did marry a pro winemaker (<-- smarter than you knew)
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 17:37:20 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:10:37 -0800
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How did you get UPS to ship it?  They refuse to ship glass in these here
parts of the country.
Shirley B
> 
> > Has anyone had a similar experience with UPS or know what I might have to do
> > to prove that the shade was worth $600?

-- 
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�
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 17:44:43 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Dawn <dawnm@fidnet.com>
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Subject: Re: Original Intent of Message Re:  Pricing
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:47:40 -0800
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Dawn,
I have been at Bungi for two years.  This subject has come up, twice
where the mainstream answered in great detail.  I suspect, you just hit
a nerve in your wording.
I really hate to tell people to go to the archives, but the answers are
there.
$1-2 per piece of glass, plus $100-125 per sq. ft.  seems to be the
consenses.
Then, if it is your original work, whatever your heart tells you or the
market will alllow.
Bottom line, never sell for less than your guts tell you.  It will nag
at you the rest of your life.
You are the artist, even if you are a beginner.  Part of art, is
trusting that inner knowledge that only you have, and then having the
courage to put the right price tag on it.
Don't despair.  You are on the right track.
Good luck and keep up the good work.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 18:02:21 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: An observation.
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:55:54 -0800
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It has been hard to follow all these threads today(107). I have read up
to 4 replies to a message, before I got to the original message.
This just flabbergasts me.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 18:17:50 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:03:39 -0800
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Organization: Maiden Concepts
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There is a product. I can't remember the name of it for the life of me.
We used it in the nursing home to stop a stroke patient's plate from
moving around while he was trying to eat.  
It comes in table place mat sizes and Wal-mart sells it in various
colors in that part of the store.
I have never used it for glass, but I bet it would work for smaller
peices.  I know it is sold by the roll, cause the Physical therapy dept.
was always cutting up peices of it to work with the stroke patients.
Maybe you can go and check it out at Wal-Mart?
Good luck
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 20:10:33 1999
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From: BMarhon@aol.com
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:35:17 EST
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Hi Shirley-
I got UPS to ship it because they didn't know what it was.  I work for a mail
order company and we ship over 500 packages a day with them.   And we always
insure the packages for actual value ( insurance is included up to $100 at no
extra charge and the extra insurance is very reasonable).  My package cost
under $9 to ship and it was BIG.  We have a professional shipping department
and they used a lot of bubble wrap all the way around and it did not move in
the box and nowhere did the sides touch the box.  I'm mystified how they
managed to break it in so many different places.

The latest is that they want to pick up the broken shade and return it to me -
for what purpose I don't know because I don't think I can fix it.  But this
came from my daughter on my voicemail so I don't know the whole story yet.

Unfortunately, neither of us thought to say I had bought it from someone else
and I think UPS now knows I made it so --- there may be a problem.  However,
since we do between $8,000-$20,000 a week in business with UPS (and I pay
their bill), maybe not.  But I figure I paid for the insurance and I valued
the shade at a fair price so I'm willing to fight with them on it.

Brenda 

<< How did you get UPS to ship it?  They refuse to ship glass in these here
 parts of the country. >>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 20:43:02 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:10:28 -0600
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> How did you get UPS to ship it?  They refuse to ship glass in these here
> parts of the country.
> Shirley B


Shirley, I have shipped alot of glass stuff UPS, and recieve glass UPS.

They havent asked what I was shipping come to think of it.

I remember I used to (on west coast) have to fill out a form defining
what everything was that I was shipping, dont guess I have had to do
that for a long time.  Wonder why the difference.

My cousin has a neon sign business (makes all Budweisers's signs) and he
ships them UPS.  They know what he is shipping.  
You might want to inquire further.  Perhaps your UPS agent is
misinformed?

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 21:01:29 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:58:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.165818.0>
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Hmmm...Saws and grinders,

The saw is certainly something that should wait until you have learned
where to use it and when to just cut some glass.  

As for grinders, you've got to take care not to become a "grinder junkie"
as we call them here.  This tool is great for the occasional fix but has
become a massive crutch.  Worse yet  some "evil glass teachers" or
perhaps ones who just don't know any better have portrayed this tool as a
"necessity" rather than a "nicety".  In the long run countless man hours
are wasted playing with these "labor saving devices" that could be saved
by just learning the craft properly.


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 21:59:52 1999
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From: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: She's  Back Again
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:47:35 -0600
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I thought the drugged anchovies would have worked by now. Damn, have to
rethink my position ( and dosage to send to Bournesmith).

Welcome back my dear, I didn't think any bug would be brave enough to even
attempt an infection on such a gracious (note the compliment) poultry queen
of the barnyard. (8-)

Maybe her appetite for Philly Cheesesteaks will wane and I can save some
money. LOL

Get healthy my nemesis, we need your input.

Love to Toby (don't feed him the anchovies I sent you).



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 23:04:23 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Pattern needed
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:43:12 -0800
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Does anyone know of a pattern for a mini terrium?
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 12 23:24:17 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Shisha mirrors
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 21:52:37 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb12.135237.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a supplier here in the states that carries shisha
mirrors for use as mirror tesserae?

Thanks,

Pam


--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 00:16:35 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:21:04 -0500
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>>>>>>As for grinders, you've got to take care not to become a "grinder
junkie"

Had to laugh at this.....my SG teacher calls them "grinder-aholics".

He teaches us how to use a grinder but has loudly stated several dozen
times.... "I'll have more respect for you if you learn how to cut the glass
rather then grind it to death."

I did just go out and buy myself a grinder (got it today as a matter of
fact) because I do plan working with this meduim for quite awhile to
come...but I certainly plan on practicing my glass cutting skills as
well...and will not apoligize to using it to shave off a milli-meter here
and there to make the whole piece fit and look better.

Take Care,
Soraya


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 00:31:26 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: esavad@home.net
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Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:05:30 -0600
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> possibly. i personally don't sell anything on my page. but i've had
> offers or curiosities about selling my work online. though the price
> ususually turns them off pretty quickly. currently i just don't trust
> people (with money), online. then there is shipping, how do you do the
> world? etc.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 

Unfortunately, we cant compare your work and my work. 

I dont even aspire to some of the stuff you do, Mike.  It would be so
far off (read unattainable), it would be too depressing.  I have to be a
little more here and now.

Those that were turned off by your prices were only unable to afford
them.  You do amazing things, Mike.

Mind if I ask where your Azure box sits?

T Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 06:25:35 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Teaching and Liability
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:18:33 EST
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Just wanted to mention that when I teach I tell students that they should wear
glasses while scoring glass and soldering, as well as during grinding.  Also,
I tell students they should wear gloves while soldering.  Someone with
sensitive skin could possibly get a rash from chemicals (who knows?).  When I
read about concerns and waivers, I only saw wearing of glasses during grinding
strongly stated and wanted to mention the dangers during soldering (yes,
solder does spit and could land in someone's eye, God forbid, possibly
blinding them and glass flies while scoring, also endangering vision).  Let's
cover all of the bases while we are at it!
Lenore
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 06:55:32 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:14:11 EST
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Peggy,
   I received three great sites for a waiver form............
http://www.smsg.org/Waiver.htm             
http://reslife.tamu.edu/dived/guide96/Release.htm
http://www.maboli.com/seva/lohgarh/waiver.html
      I hope to have time to fool around with them before the next class.
Luanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 07:07:31 1999
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In a message dated 2/13/99 1:00:50 AM, pkelly@n-link.com wrote:

>( and dosage to send to Bournesmith).

=8-O

Patrick, you've poisoned the wrong woman! That's Elizabeth with a *Z* in
Bournemouth. Let's just hope she doesn't have any pets that might be tempted
to eat that fishy-smelling package........


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 07:17:56 1999
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In a message dated 2/13/99 12:02:19 AM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:

>As for grinders, you've got to take care not to become a "grinder junkie"
>as we call them here.  This tool is great for the occasional fix but has
>become a massive crutch.  Worse yet  some "evil glass teachers" or
>perhaps ones who just don't know any better have portrayed this tool as a
>"necessity" rather than a "nicety". 

Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to shreds!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 07:29:56 1999
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Shirley, 
   Thanks for your post,  back to normal around here now and am rewriting the
safety rules for the studio.  Rule number 1  - Do as I say, not as I do.  lol
Luanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 07:33:15 1999
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Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:51:46 EST
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Brenda,
    My experience with UPS has always been great, even with insurance claims.
They always ask the contents and it must be double boxed.  I always mark the
boxes   GLASS   FRAGILE, etc., even the smallest parcel.  UPS always sends an
inspector to check to see if it was packaged properly, then they send it back
to me.  I determine whether or not it is repairable and how much.  Then they
send me a check.  If it is a total loss, they send the check and sometimes
they come pick the piece up, sometimes they do not.  But this is with a
business.  In the future, it is best to follow all guidelines so that you are
covered.  It doesn't matter how well you pack it, sometimes you can see tire
tracks on the boxes!!  
Luanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 07:50:54 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:37:50 +0000
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> Just wanted to mention that when I teach I tell students that they should wear
> glasses while scoring glass and soldering, as well as during grinding.  Also,
> I tell students they should wear gloves while soldering. 


Then, even if they don't do any of that, you're covered. You *told 
them so!

Albert
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 08:02:42 1999
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From: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:18:34
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Thanks for the advice.  I think you are right...I was getting a bit ahead of myself.  I think I'm becoming a tool-junkie just like my husband!

The reason I brought up the saw and grinder bit is due to the Powerkits system we had seen in the Inland catalog.  Since both of us do a good deal of craft work (my husband builds puppets and marionettes), we thought that it might be a good investment.  However, for my stained glass work right now I really don't need the saw at all.  The grinder, however, really helped my last piece come together (a small kaleidoscope with a lot of little pieces)...so I may bite the bullet and invest in one soon.

Well...thanks again....back to the practicing board!

Jen Frisbee - newbie extraordinaire!


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 08:18:39 1999
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From: "Daniela Birkelbach" <dany@city-net.com>
To: "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Pattern needed
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:22:11 -0500
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Shirley,

do you mean terrarium?  There is a Wardell book "Terrariums and Planters"
which has a little terrarium in it.  Looks very nice! I'll scan you a
picture of the finished terrarium in the book if you're really interested.

Dany
Kennebec, Inc.
http://www.kennebec-inc.com
http://www.city-net.com/~dany

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 1:54 AM
Subject: Pattern needed


>Does anyone know of a pattern for a mini terrium?
>Thanks in advance.
>Shirley B
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>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 08:39:28 1999
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:14:06 EST
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Hello all:

I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas concerning the protection of mirror
bottoms (boxes, candle shelters, etc.). I use the aerosol mirror edge sealant
after cutting and grinding, but once in a while I still get a small spot where
the silver will seperate from the mirror glass. Is there anything else I could
apply to the mirror back to prevent this peeling? Any advice would be
appreciated.

Laura P
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 10:12:34 1999
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Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:12:00 -0500
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Shirley Balloch wrote:
> =

> How did you get UPS to ship it?  They refuse to ship glass in these her=
e
> parts of the country.
> Shirley B
> >
> > > Has anyone had a similar experience with UPS or know what I might h=
ave to do
> > > to prove that the shade was worth $600?
> =

> --
> x=9F>"3=16=01=06=90=08
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basically you don't tell them what's in it. all they know it's a box
worth X amount of dollars, weighing this much. it says fragile on the
box, so they know not to drop it from too high a place. and not to place
it under the heavy anvils, just the lighter ones.

---Mike Savad

-- =

Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
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2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 10:31:28 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:13:37 -0500
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Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> There is a product. I can't remember the name of it for the life of me.
> We used it in the nursing home to stop a stroke patient's plate from
> moving around while he was trying to eat.
> It comes in table place mat sizes and Wal-mart sells it in various
> colors in that part of the store.
> I have never used it for glass, but I bet it would work for smaller
> peices.  I know it is sold by the roll, cause the Physical therapy dept.
> was always cutting up peices of it to work with the stroke patients.
> Maybe you can go and check it out at Wal-Mart?
> Good luck
> Shirley B


it must be the same stuff, Dycem. because my grandmother got it when she
had a stroke. hers was blue in color, and impervious to almost every
kind of chemical.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 10:42:29 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:23:32 -0500
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Suzanne wrote:
> 
> > possibly. i personally don't sell anything on my page. but i've had
> > offers or curiosities about selling my work online. though the price
> > ususually turns them off pretty quickly. currently i just don't trust
> > people (with money), online. then there is shipping, how do you do the
> > world? etc.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> 
> Unfortunately, we cant compare your work and my work.
> 
> I dont even aspire to some of the stuff you do, Mike.  It would be so
> far off (read unattainable), it would be too depressing.  I have to be a
> little more here and now.
> 
> Those that were turned off by your prices were only unable to afford
> them.  You do amazing things, Mike.
> 
> Mind if I ask where your Azure box sits?
> 
> T Suzanne


currently it sits next to the fish lamp. i did'nt wash the lis off sell
enough and is a little chalky, but that's ok it blends in with the dust.
and it's easy enough to polish.

i may actually start selling things online. i'm trying to figure out
what things would sell, at what prices (figuring slightly higher to
offset online costs). though i'm not sure what the best pricing method
would be. i figure that someone could send me the check for the whole
thing. then i'd send them the project. it's just a weird trust thing. i
dunno how to work the whole thing out. 

since this is going out to bungi too... what so you guys think is the
best money transfer method? i figure i'd set up a seperate page else
where (geocities does'nt allow that kind of thing for free). right now
it's just the money thing that's messing me up.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 10:53:32 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:37:08 +0000
Message-ID: <199902131730.MAA12061@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
> necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to 
shreds!

Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building 
lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had 
any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.

Albert
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 11:05:59 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: mirror sealant
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:30:29 -0500
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HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hello all:
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas concerning the protection of mirror
> bottoms (boxes, candle shelters, etc.). I use the aerosol mirror edge sealant
> after cutting and grinding, but once in a while I still get a small spot where
> the silver will seperate from the mirror glass. Is there anything else I could
> apply to the mirror back to prevent this peeling? Any advice would be
> appreciated.
> 
> Laura P
> ----
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i found the best thing to do with a mirror, is not to grind it. all
those tiny chips can kill it down the line. were the spots by the edge?
or in the middle? the edge sould be flux, the center would be a scratch
through the coating. for boxes i've always but feet of some kind on the
bottom to protect the furniture and the mirror. also be sure to use
cleaners designed to clean mirror, some cleaners can actually kill a 
mirror.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 11:16:50 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing - For a UPS Claim
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Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 12:37:09 +0000
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> covered.  It doesn't matter how well you pack it, sometimes you can see tire
> tracks on the boxes!!  

The best one I ever saw was a large carton with forklift entry holes 
inserted midway in the box, penetration most of the way through, too. 
It didn't go out that way, but it certainly came back in modified 
form.

Albert
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 11:55:25 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
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Subject: Re:  She's  Back Again
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:52:49 +0000
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At 09:16 13/02/99 EST, Sparks wrote:
>
>In a message dated 2/13/99 1:00:50 AM, pkelly@n-link.com wrote:
>
>>( and dosage to send to Bournesmith).
>
>Patrick, you've poisoned the wrong woman! That's Elizabeth with a *Z* in
>Bournemouth. Let's just hope she doesn't have any pets that might be tempted
>to eat that fishy-smelling package........
>

Well Lucifer (our Siamese) isnt that keen on fish - prefers a nice piece of
chicken breast hooked gently off my plate while I'm not looking - so he
might survive!
Glad to hear EliSabeth is back with us at last.
EliZabeth in Bournemouth

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 12:21:44 1999
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Please remove us from the mailing list.  Thank you.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 12:53:51 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Shisha mirrors
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:31:01 -0500
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Hi Pam,

I think you can get those at any bead shop... you mean those =

little round mirrors that are embroidered into East Indian clothing,
right??

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 12:54:24 1999
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Subject: Marketing Mike! was Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:46:38 -0600
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Obviously, marketing is the secret.

You can do such beautiful things, and have such an adventurous whimsical
nature to your artwork.  All you need is to be seen by one *right*
person, and the sky is the limit for you.

Your clientele would be a completely different crowd than say mine...

Have you ever considered donating something of yours to be displayed at
say The Rock an Roll Hall of Fame?  I could see Mick Jagger buying the
azure box to try to appease Jerry Hall, that sort of thing. ;o)

You need an agent! ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne

> i may actually start selling things online. i'm trying to figure out
> what things would sell, at what prices (figuring slightly higher to
> offset online costs). though i'm not sure what the best pricing method
> would be. i figure that someone could send me the check for the whole
> thing. then i'd send them the project. it's just a weird trust thing. i
> dunno how to work the whole thing out. 
> 
> since this is going out to bungi too... what so you guys think is the
> best money transfer method? i figure i'd set up a seperate page else
> where (geocities does'nt allow that kind of thing for free). right now
> it's just the money thing that's messing me up.
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:10:10 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:31:04 -0500
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Sorry, Sparks, it's absolutely not necessary with copperfoil... =

we don't grind any more with foil than with lead.   In a foiled =

window of, say, 350 pieces, I *might grind 10 -20.... maybe.
And, that's often only if the glass is thick or rippled, I grind a =

bit of a bevel on each side.  With good cutting and especially
grozing, you'll find the foil won't tear and will stick just fine.
Saves a ton of time not having to wash all that glass dust off.
We never do wash the glass before foiling... we don't seem to
have the problems with excess oil either.  Beats me!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:15:36 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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In a message dated 2/13/99 1:54:15 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net writes:

<< 
 Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building 
 lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had 
 any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
 
 Albert >>




I thought they had some kind of file to smooth the edges a little. 

Dianne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:24:02 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:30:54 -0500
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Hi Shirley--

That knobby rubber net stuff your're talking about is, I think, just
shelf liner... we buy rolls of it from Walmart.  The first time we
used it was to stand in a bath tub during an installation of a =

25 s.f. window over the tub... sure footing and no scuffs on the
$2,000 tub!

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:31:35 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing, and Dani's new computer
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:46:05 -0800
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Hi Dani,
How's that new computer??
Your messages are fully across the page now:):) 
Did something change? 
Actually thought the *memo size* was a trademark <VBG> and I quite liked it.
But this is good too, seems like more to read:)

You always have alot of intelliegent things to say. And I would like to
futher add to your good commments.
 
As an artist grows in their medium and also increases the range of
interests,  their knowledge grows with experience and I feel it's within
their right to be able to expand on their pricing...pretty much what you
said, eh? 

*it has been said that in the world of artists, one who has had the years of
experience, commands the higher prices as compared to the person who just
stepped out into the field.*...and I think I just repeated myself, grin.

I know this sounds contrary to what I said in prior post, but *it is* more
in keeping with my thoughts...now that I have slept on it and gotten over my
sparky nature.
 
But it seems the world of art is changing and the guidlines have
disapppeared and the sky is the limit for some. And has become more of an
economic issue.

Good work done... does speak for it's self and never have I had negative
exposure because of someone else's bad work. To the contrary actually. 

Cindy:)...hey guys don't jump on me -on this one...I'm trying hard to sound
smart:):)...but if it's coming across STUPID...just let me know:)

PS...here's some notes I've collected from a seminar:

-don't aim for height aim for distance.

-when starting out keep the prices for you work below other artist prices
for the same medium and size.

-constantly seek ways of lowering the costs of producing and selling your
work without compromising the quality...eg: bulk buying and doing your own
framing.

-constantly seeks ways of improving the quality and presentation of your
work and then inform dealers and clients of these improvements.

-charge 10% to 30% more for specific commissions.

-be constantly observant of what sells- at what prices. these are
indications of your clients "comfort zone".

-vary the sizes, mediums, and dgrees of detail in your work. this will allow
for  different price levels in your work.

-keep your "ego" in check. moving your prices up too quickly or higher than
the market will bear, can slow or even stop your career- dead in it's tracks.

-beware of family and friends who know little of the art market- pressuring
you to raise your prices. they are well-meaning and might make you feel
good, but you could end up feeling- poor.

-don't raise your prices because you see other artists doing so. watch
carefully to see if their work is really selling or whether it's just
gathering dust.

-be flexible. not all of your work will be masterpieces. understand this and
price your work accordingly.

-be willing and ready to negotiate. don't be offended by people who may want
to "wheel and deal". by doing so they are telling you they like and want
your work.

-decide whether you want a fast nickel or a slow dime. ask yourself, do I
want a lot of my over priced work representing my time, effort and expenses
sitting in storage and gathering dust or do I want to have my resonably
priced work in the possession of people who truely admire, desire and can
afford it. while i have their money to continue my Art, my life and the
lives of my family!!!

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:43:54 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Disparity in Pricing, now orginials
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:46:43 -0800
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A couple years ago I built a *Chagall* dovet cover...
Ya mean it's not an orginial???, <VBG>
Cindy:)


>From the keyboard of Albert:
>I have a Marc Chagall print that's original. Sure, he printed 
>hundreds of them, but it's still from his hand and I value it for 
>that. (Don't get all impressed; I paid like $15 for it 30 years ago.)
>
>Albert
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>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:53:58 1999
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From: cpesonen@uniserve.com (Cindy Pesonen)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: tutu selling
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:46:15 -0800
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>
>Way too cheap:)
>Do I hear 24,000.00 plus a dollar?? 
>Now what's that in the Canadain peso??
>I'll take 2 please....VGB.
>Cindy:)
>
>
>>Ain't the free market great?  Just ask Bill Gates, Donald Trump, etc.
>>
>>Ask and ye shall receive. Now where is that soiled TuTu. I'll sell it cheap
>>.......... $12,000 U.S. (less the IGGA discount of course). $1 for each time
>>I've had to repair my gnomon. Because nobody has sent me Bios for this
>>Saturday's posting (note the segway into the bios). If you want the TuTu
>>after Saturday it will be $12,001 U.S.
>>
>>
>>Patrick
>>Roses and Rainbows
>>
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>>
>>
>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 13:59:27 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
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Subject: Re: Pattern needed
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:53:30 -0800
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Organization: Maiden Concepts
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Wow, I like your site.
The clip art link is great.
I like your SG work also. I was wondering is the rooster in your garden
section is SG?  If so what kind of rod do you have it attached to?  I
live at the coast and never think farm, but that is really cute and I
would like to make one. I have a few rooster patterns, but usually just
skip over them.  I should think they would sell real good in Delaware,
since that is the blue hen state.
So, are you the lady wearing the Santa hat?  And is the other Santa hat
wearer going to be a after poor Patrick too?
I have that wardell pattern book.  They are nice, but don't quite hit it
for me.  I am not much of an artist.  Can't think it up for myself, but
know what I like when I see it.
Since the 70's are back.  I thought a few little ones would be good to
try at my spring craft show.  I always liked having one sitting on the
coffee table, but I was thinking of a little one hanging in a window.
Thank you for taking the time to look for me.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 14:09:27 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: websites and Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:46:16 -0800
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>>since this is going out to bungi too... what so you guys think is the
best money transfer method? i figure i'd set up a seperate page else
where (geocities does'nt allow that kind of thing for free). right now
it's just the money thing that's messing me up.

---Mike Savad<<

I would think that a site offering stained glass for sale should have a wide
range of prices. Something like a $6,000.00 lamp and a $75.00 box on each
end of the offering scale.

Postal money orders are perhaps the best way to go. True it is an
inconvience for the sender but you are realitively sure of getting your
money. Credit cards are very expensive to set up accounts, the charge amount
is discounted and the charge may be cancelled. Not a good idea for the small
operator. Personal checks bounce and may be cancelled before they clear.
So..............go postal money orders and you can quickly ship without
waiting for a check or charge to clear.

You are right to be concerned about payment. There are a few people out
there that would like to get something for nothing. Don't give it to them!
Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 14:28:29 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:10:07 +0000
Message-ID: <199902132003.PAA14238@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk

Simpler than that, actually. Cut a piece of glass, break it out, 
stroke the edge of one piece against the other like whetting a knive: 
stroke, stroke ... and you're done. Less than a second's work to 
knock the sharpness off the edge, grinder unnecessary.



> I thought they had some kind of file to smooth the edges a little. 
> 
> Dianne

> << 
>  Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building 
>  lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had 
>  any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
>  
>  Albert >>

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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:24:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.112443.0>
References: <<199902131730.MAA12061@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
> > necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to
> shreds!
> 
> Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
> lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
> any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
> 
> Albert
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


but... would they have used a grinder if they had it back then? that's
the question. i say yes they would have, if it were invented and usable.
the lighting was dim, but that's all they may have had back then. 

for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 15:27:58 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:26:38 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.212638.0>
References: <<1999Feb13.141630.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Sparks, et. al,

I managed for several years to do copper foil work without a grinder. I
dulled the edges by wiping each glass edge against its off cut.  If
necessary to do more work on the piece, I used a small carborundum stone
to smooth the edges and make some gentle alterations to the shape.
Otherwise, I cut another piece.

Now, of course that I am producing more things and have less time to do
it in, I use a grinder. When I have to.  I'd rather groze.  (instead of
score?)

Steve

In message <1999Feb13.141630.0@?>, Witchdoc3@aol.com writes
>
>In a message dated 2/13/99 12:02:19 AM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:
>
>>As for grinders, you've got to take care not to become a "grinder junkie"
>>as we call them here.  This tool is great for the occasional fix but has
>>become a massive crutch.  Worse yet  some "evil glass teachers" or
>>perhaps ones who just don't know any better have portrayed this tool as a
>>"necessity" rather than a "nicety". 
>
>Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
>necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to shreds!
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: dodgestudio@juno.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:48:39 EST
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In a message dated 2/12/99 9:02:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dodgestudio@juno.com writes:

<< evil glass teachers" or
 perhaps ones who just don't know any better have portrayed this tool as a
 "necessity" rather than a "nicety".  In the long run countless man hours
 are wasted playing with these "labor saving devices" that could be saved
 by just learning the craft properly. >>

While I certainly respect the abillity to cut glass perfectly with no
mechanical
aids... in those rare instances when I have been able to accomplish the feat, 
I've found that copper foil doesn't stick well to a clean cut,  so I find
myself lightly 
grinding the edge in any case.

Do you never have to use groziers either?  I rarely have a smooth edge after
grozing.

While I agree sometimes grinding is time wasted.   I  think teachers want
students to be able to have the satisfaction of a completed project 
with mimimal pain.
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 18:22:19 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:38:55 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.73855.0>
References: <<199902132003.PAA14238@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I know I am beating a dead horse here, but...........
When thoses women made a poor cut, didn't they toss it and cut again?
They did not pay for the glass and they were not paying $10/sq.ft for
it.  Now I like yellow, pinks, and reds, and they tend to run in that
area(wholesale).
So can't we use the expense, we are saving by grinding down the glass,
for an excuss to use the grinder?
At least until we are better glass cutters?
I hear you already.  The cost of the grinder, the grinder heads, the
glass dust to our lungs, and the extra time it takes,costs more than
recutting a piece of glass.
But I still wonder!!
Shirley B
> >  Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
> >  lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
> >  any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
> >
> >  Albert >>
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 18:36:52 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:53:31 -0800
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I am adding this to the bumper sticker list!
 I'd rather groze.  (instead of score?)
Shirley B
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:07:44 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb14.0744.0>
References: <<1999Feb13.112443.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

In message <1999Feb13.112443.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
>Albert Lewis wrote:
>> 
>> > Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
>> > necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to
>> shreds!
>> 
>> Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
>> lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
>> any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
>> 
>> Albert
>> ----
>
>but... would they have used a grinder if they had it back then? that's
>the question. i say yes they would have, if it were invented and usable.
>the lighting was dim, but that's all they may have had back then. 
>
>for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
>if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
>needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
>20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
>holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them. 
>
>---Mike Savad
>
Mike,

Just because a machine is available doesn't make it better than another
older technique, machine, etc.  One of the questions to be asked is
whether the grinder is better or even quicker than the older method.
You will have seen Albert's description of preparing glass for foiling -
score, break, wipe the edges, foil.  This has to be quicker than score,
break, grind, wash, dry, then foil.  It is better because the score and
broken edge is much smoother than the ground edge, so it takes the foil
adhesive better and makes a more secure bond.

So, I'd answer that the Tiffany workers (concerned as they must have
been with piece rates for speed) would not choose to use the grinder
extensively.

It could be interesting for people to put their grinders away for the
next project and see how well they really can do without spending time
at the grinder.

Steve
-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 18:51:44 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:13:13 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb14.01313.0>
References: <<36C6107B.7775@netbridge.net>>
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Well, if anybody chooses it, it should be mysterious.
Steve
In message <36C6107B.7775@netbridge.net>, Shirley Balloch
<balloch@netbridge.net> writes
>I am adding this to the bumper sticker list!
> I'd rather groze.  (instead of score?)
>Shirley B

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 18:58:02 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:42:31 -0500
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Steve Richard wrote:
> 
> In message <1999Feb13.112443.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
> >Albert Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >> > Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
> >> > necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to
> >> shreds!
> >>
> >> Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
> >> lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
> >> any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
> >>
> >> Albert
> >> ----
> >
> >but... would they have used a grinder if they had it back then? that's
> >the question. i say yes they would have, if it were invented and usable.
> >the lighting was dim, but that's all they may have had back then.
> >
> >for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
> >if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
> >needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
> >20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
> >holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> Mike,
> 
> Just because a machine is available doesn't make it better than another
> older technique, machine, etc.  One of the questions to be asked is
> whether the grinder is better or even quicker than the older method.
> You will have seen Albert's description of preparing glass for foiling -
> score, break, wipe the edges, foil.  This has to be quicker than score,
> break, grind, wash, dry, then foil.  It is better because the score and
> broken edge is much smoother than the ground edge, so it takes the foil
> adhesive better and makes a more secure bond.
> 
> So, I'd answer that the Tiffany workers (concerned as they must have
> been with piece rates for speed) would not choose to use the grinder
> extensively.
> 
> It could be interesting for people to put their grinders away for the
> next project and see how well they really can do without spending time
> at the grinder.
> 
> Steve
> --
> Steve Richard
> Verrier Art Glass Ltd
> s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk


it all depends on the point of view of the person who does work with it.
if someone works with large pieces or straight cuts, a grinder would'nt
even enter your mind. if you work with alot of smaller pieces or very
curvy pieces a grinder is a good idea. a few swipes with a stone may not
remove that little bit of glass, that makes the project grow. 

i wonder how many cuts the tiffany people had foiling the glass with a
few razor edges. if they did have a use of a grinder, it could have
meant lamps. with fingers that may have not hurt so much...  plus a fact
that the glass may have been alot softer, and a stone could have removed
alot of the sharpness. alot of my glass is alot harder...


basically thie thread (and everytime we have one), always winds up with
this: foilers say yes, leaders say no... on the average anyway.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 19:04:37 1999
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Sorry, but no mail today-at all-so I'm sending a test to see if I'm off
the list or if it's my email service.

Diane M.
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:51:06 -0800
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>>for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them.

---Mike Savad<<

I've got the answer, "Savad at least had electricity in his studio and might
have gotten ahold of one of the early models. How else could he have done
sky city!" Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 19:57:26 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Another bumper sticker... for some
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:57:19 -0500
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One more for the list:

Stained glass is a grind.

;-)  Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 20:11:59 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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Oh, another bumper sticker....

Stained glass groze on you.

Yuck.

Best,

Dani Greer
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______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 20:45:15 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:34:26 -0800
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I'm relatively new to things and did my first five projects (3 lead, 2 foil)
all without a grinder. I love doing leaded work (can't explain why, but I
like it better), and I finally went out and bought a grinder. I'm a real
perfectionist, and no matter how good the score, it seems like once in a
while there's a piece that causes everything to creep just a little. The
grinder makes bringing that piece back into line much quicker and easier,
and saves the expense of recutting.

I can see it both ways and I think beginners should be encouraged to work
without the grinder as a "safety net". On the other hand, when on the verge
of tears with a first project, an instructor with a grinder "up their
sleeve" can save the day.  To me, it's a matter of how much, how often, and
less is always better.

Julia Moseley
Kirkland, WA

P.S. Is there a way to NOT get the NG discussions? They flood my mailbox,
and unfortunately, it's not easy to set up a rule for NG... lots of words
END in "ng" like thinking, grinding, etc. Any ideas would be appreciated.
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 5:02 PM
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools


>Steve Richard wrote:
>>
>> In message <1999Feb13.112443.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
>> >Albert Lewis wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's
absolutely
>> >> > necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to
>> >> shreds!
>> >>
>> >> Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
>> >> lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
>> >> any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
>> >>
>> >> Albert
>> >> ----
>> >
>> >but... would they have used a grinder if they had it back then? that's
>> >the question. i say yes they would have, if it were invented and usable.
>> >the lighting was dim, but that's all they may have had back then.
>> >
>> >for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
>> >if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
>> >needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
>> >20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
>> >holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them.
>> >
>> >---Mike Savad
>> >
>> Mike,
>>
>> Just because a machine is available doesn't make it better than another
>> older technique, machine, etc.  One of the questions to be asked is
>> whether the grinder is better or even quicker than the older method.
>> You will have seen Albert's description of preparing glass for foiling -
>> score, break, wipe the edges, foil.  This has to be quicker than score,
>> break, grind, wash, dry, then foil.  It is better because the score and
>> broken edge is much smoother than the ground edge, so it takes the foil
>> adhesive better and makes a more secure bond.
>>
>> So, I'd answer that the Tiffany workers (concerned as they must have
>> been with piece rates for speed) would not choose to use the grinder
>> extensively.
>>
>> It could be interesting for people to put their grinders away for the
>> next project and see how well they really can do without spending time
>> at the grinder.
>>
>> Steve
>> --
>> Steve Richard
>> Verrier Art Glass Ltd
>> s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
>
>
>it all depends on the point of view of the person who does work with it.
>if someone works with large pieces or straight cuts, a grinder would'nt
>even enter your mind. if you work with alot of smaller pieces or very
>curvy pieces a grinder is a good idea. a few swipes with a stone may not
>remove that little bit of glass, that makes the project grow.
>
>i wonder how many cuts the tiffany people had foiling the glass with a
>few razor edges. if they did have a use of a grinder, it could have
>meant lamps. with fingers that may have not hurt so much...  plus a fact
>that the glass may have been alot softer, and a stone could have removed
>alot of the sharpness. alot of my glass is alot harder...
>
>
>basically thie thread (and everytime we have one), always winds up with
>this: foilers say yes, leaders say no... on the average anyway.
>
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
>Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
>too and A Look at Sky City
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 20:59:55 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:56:03 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.15563.0>
References: <<1999Feb13.144231.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Well,  I for one will be keeping my grinder!

After breaking a peice or two getting an inside curve out, The last
think I want to do is lose it again by grozing.  I am not the greatest
grozer.  

I use my carborundum? file to to take off the little razor edges, but if
there is a rough spot from having to take several scores and breaks to
get my peice, I use my grinder.  
I want my glass to fit tight.  Doesnt take but even a tiny spot to knock
it all off.  If I groze it, it would take too much off.  I can take a
bit off that is imperceptable to the eye with my grinder, and have it
fit just right.  Or I can leave it by not grinding and have a gap
somewhere else because is the fit is off.  

Grinding also protects my fingers, I *still* have a tendency to rub my
finger over the edges of my glass.  It is a sick obcession.  I cant seem
to stop.  I have almost needed stitches due to this.  Luckily glass cuts
are so clean, they come together and heal pretty quickly.

T Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 21:14:04 1999
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: mirror sealant
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:38:51 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.113851.0>
References: <<1999Feb13.15146.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Laura:  In addition to the mirror edge sealant, I use clear fingernail
polish on the edges of the mirror before I foil it.  So are this seems to
have prevent the 'black rot' caused by the flux/corrosion.  Peggy

On Sat, 13 Feb 1999 HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Hello all:
> 
> I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas concerning the protection of mirror
> bottoms (boxes, candle shelters, etc.). I use the aerosol mirror edge sealant
> after cutting and grinding, but once in a while I still get a small spot where
> the silver will seperate from the mirror glass. Is there anything else I could
> apply to the mirror back to prevent this peeling? Any advice would be
> appreciated.
> 
> Laura P
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> 

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 21:32:06 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:06:49 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.16649.0>
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Precedence: bulk

> When S of Tulsa gets on line I will do a far better job. Bob
> 
I cant imagine what I would even think of attemting at this point in
time that would cost anywhere near $1000!  

Ok...Bob, you've seen a good deal of my stuff that is pretty
representational.  You also know how I charge.

In your opinion..am I off?  Should I charge less, more?

S *in* not of* Tulsa ;o)
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 21:46:54 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:24:06 -0800
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I know I'm new to this but when I took a class we were not told about danger
in glass dust??
and I was told there was no way to do stained glass with out a grinder and I
wish I didn't but I use my grinder WAY to much... but my teacher kinda taught
us to use it if we didn't cut pc right..

Shirley Balloch wrote:

> I know I am beating a dead horse here, but...........
> When thoses women made a poor cut, didn't they toss it and cut again?
> They did not pay for the glass and they were not paying $10/sq.ft for
> it.  Now I like yellow, pinks, and reds, and they tend to run in that
> area(wholesale).
> So can't we use the expense, we are saving by grinding down the glass,
> for an excuss to use the grinder?
> At least until we are better glass cutters?
> I hear you already.  The cost of the grinder, the grinder heads, the
> glass dust to our lungs, and the extra time it takes,costs more than
> recutting a piece of glass.
> But I still wonder!!
> Shirley B
> > >  Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
> > >  lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
> > >  any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
> > >
> > >  Albert >>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 22:00:56 1999
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From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 23:32:10 -0800
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I like it...
Kinda cute..Laura

Dani Greer wrote:

> Oh, another bumper sticker....
>
> Stained glass groze on you.
>
> Yuck.
>
> Best,
>
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 22:36:05 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------09FD9F07A93353FA18F101EB"
Subject: Re: Shisha mirrors
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 21:08:00 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.1380.0>
References: <<1999Feb13.9311.0>>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk


--------------09FD9F07A93353FA18F101EB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dani Greer wrote:

> Hi Pam,
>
> I think you can get those at any bead shop... you mean those =
>
> little round mirrors that are embroidered into East Indian clothing,
> right??

Well actually I'm not sure, yes and no :) Do you remember that awesome
site where that fabo artist used mirrors in mosaics? We had a thread
going awhile ago on this subject.
http://www.erols.com/masont/

I've been there a few times and I'm wondering how the glass is used. It
looks as if the glass work has to be cut in order to form the mosaic
designs. I know there are craft mirrors as some call them. But I sure
don't think those are used here. So back to this fabo guy and this site
again I don't think we ever did figure out how he did this. Any idea's
Dani? I'm almost tempted to e-mail him personally and ask for goodness
sake. It really is incredible how this looks in my opinion. The light is
reflected, it's not a clear glass type of medium.

A little history on shisha mirrors

Shisha mirror's are used in embroidery in Pakistan, Afghanistan and
India. The first
shisha mirrors were actually chips of mica, and silvery insect wings,
but in the early
16th century, the first small mirrors were manufactured from sand, lime
and soda in
small furnaces. They were called shisha, the Hindustani word for "glass"
or "mirror."

Now there are shisha mirrors that are used for glass work, the only
suppliers are in the U.K. etc. that I could find. I don't think the
embroidery mirrors are the same but I may be wrong.

I'm totally perplexed.

Pam




*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


--------------09FD9F07A93353FA18F101EB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<I>Dani Greer wrote:</I>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><I>Hi Pam,</I><I></I>

<P><I>I think you can get those at any bead shop... you mean those =</I><I></I>

<P><I>little round mirrors that are embroidered into East Indian clothing,</I>
<BR><I>right??</I></BLOCKQUOTE>


<P>Well actually I'm not sure, yes and no :) Do you remember that awesome
site where that fabo artist used mirrors in mosaics? We had a thread going
awhile ago on this subject.
<BR><A HREF="http://www.erols.com/masont/">http://www.erols.com/masont/</A>

<P>I've been there a few times and I'm wondering how the glass is used.
It looks as if the glass work has to be cut in order to form the mosaic
designs. I know there are craft mirrors as some call them. But I sure don't
think those are used here. So back to this fabo guy and this site again
I don't think we ever did figure out how he did this. Any idea's Dani?
I'm almost tempted to e-mail him personally and ask for goodness sake.
It really is incredible how this looks in my opinion. The light is reflected,
it's not a clear glass type of medium.

<P>A little history on shisha mirrors

<P>Shisha mirror's are used in embroidery in Pakistan, Afghanistan and
India. The first
<BR>shisha mirrors were actually chips of mica, and silvery insect wings,
but in the early
<BR>16th century, the first small mirrors were manufactured from sand,
lime and soda in
<BR>small furnaces. They were called shisha, the Hindustani word for "glass"
or "mirror."

<P>Now there are shisha mirrors that are used for glass work, the only
suppliers are in the U.K. etc. that I could find. I don't think the embroidery
mirrors are the same but I may be wrong.

<P>I'm totally perplexed.

<P>Pam
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;
<BR>&nbsp;

<P>*********************************

<P>Pamela Burns-Tappan
<BR>Executive Director
<BR>The Stained Glass Artists
<BR><A HREF="http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists">http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists</A>

<P>Moswood Mountain Limited
<BR><A HREF="http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited">http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited</A>
<BR><A HREF="http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1">http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1</A>
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------09FD9F07A93353FA18F101EB--

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 13 23:06:47 1999
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!vlg
From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Another bumper sticker... for some
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 00:34:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb13.193459.0>
Precedence: bulk

How about:

"Once you learn how to Score, Grinding and Grozing comes easy." 

Or:

Grozing in the Glass.

Ciao

Vic
-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 13, 1999 11:11 PM
Subject: Another bumper sticker... for some


>One more for the list:
>
>Stained glass is a grind.
>
>;-)  Dani Greer
>----
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 01:45:20 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Disparity in Pricing, and Dani's new computer
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 03:30:07 -0500
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Precedence: bulk

2/13/99 2:46 PM Cindy Pesonen cpesonen@uniserve.com

Cindy, some very good points. Thanks for sharing them with us!
Suzanne

>
>PS...here's some notes I've collected from a seminar:
>
>-don't aim for height aim for distance.
>
>-when starting out keep the prices for you work below other artist prices
>for the same medium and size.
>
>-constantly seek ways of lowering the costs of producing and selling your
>work without compromising the quality...eg: bulk buying and doing your own
>framing.
>
>-constantly seeks ways of improving the quality and presentation of your
>work and then inform dealers and clients of these improvements.
>
>-charge 10% to 30% more for specific commissions.
>
>-be constantly observant of what sells- at what prices. these are
>indications of your clients "comfort zone".
>
>-vary the sizes, mediums, and dgrees of detail in your work. this will allow
>for  different price levels in your work.
>
>-keep your "ego" in check. moving your prices up too quickly or higher than
>the market will bear, can slow or even stop your career- dead in it's tracks.
>
>-beware of family and friends who know little of the art market- pressuring
>you to raise your prices. they are well-meaning and might make you feel
>good, but you could end up feeling- poor.
>
>-don't raise your prices because you see other artists doing so. watch
>carefully to see if their work is really selling or whether it's just
>gathering dust.
>
>-be flexible. not all of your work will be masterpieces. understand this and
>price your work accordingly.
>
>-be willing and ready to negotiate. don't be offended by people who may want
>to "wheel and deal". by doing so they are telling you they like and want
>your work.
>
>-decide whether you want a fast nickel or a slow dime. ask yourself, do I
>want a lot of my over priced work representing my time, effort and expenses
>sitting in storage and gathering dust or do I want to have my resonably
>priced work in the possession of people who truely admire, desire and can
>afford it. while i have their money to continue my Art, my life and the
>lives of my family!!!
>
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>
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:27:40 +0000
Message-ID: <199902140920.EAA22236@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> I know I am beating a dead horse here, but...........
> When thoses women made a poor cut, didn't they toss it and cut again?
> They did not pay for the glass and they were not paying $10/sq.ft for
> it. 

If Louis Tiffany was anything, he was a businessman first and 
foremost. Okay, he was an artist, too, and quite a good painter, but 
he excelled at business. The glass was manufacturered to his 
specifications by outfits he had "locked down" contractually, and 
while none of the glass would have cost $10/ft2 at the time (nothing 
was as expensive then as now), it would have been a considerable 
expense. Waste would have meant lost profits. A poor cutter wouldn't 
have lasted as an employee, most certainly not a female employee.

> So can't we use the expense, we are saving by grinding down the glass,
> for an excuss to use the grinder?
> At least until we are better glass cutters?

You see, that's the thing. Glass teachers these days who have their 
students learn to cut glass with a grinder close at hand are actually 
crippling their students in a way. It's like teaching a child to walk 
by insisting they use a walker like an 80-year-old. They'd never 
learn to walk correctly. Personally, I'd say that nobody learning to 
work with stained glass should be allowed to use a grinder until 
they'd learned to cut confidently and accurately most of the time.

Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
mark you as a good craftsman.

My opinion, natch.

Albert
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 03:48:20 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 10:04:59 -0000
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Hello

Ok if we aren't going to slam peoples work or pricing then let's slam their
techniques! BG

I don't think anybody would deny that there people in this world who are
better at cutting glass that others - they must be they tell us so! Ok then
that gives us all something to aspire to.

I admire all skilled people. No skills are easily won and they are priceless
to those who have them and a wonder to observe. We all venerate
craftsmanship!

We should all remember that a grinder is an enabling tool. It allows people
to make things in stained glass without having to acquire the cutting skills
first. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in this urgent age.

I began by grozing from the start. My cutting was appalling. Then I got a
grinder so I groze then ground to shape. As my skills improved I gave up
nearly!) grozing and ground only. Now I ALWAYS grind lightly (at least!)
just so that I can handle and foil the piece with confidence.

I will not be admonished for using a work pattern that suits me!

So all you non grinders can go around patting your selves and your friends
on the back and feeling holier than everybody else if it makes you happy -
you deserve it.

All you grinders need feel no remorse. You are good guys as well! Your
skills will come if you work at them but you have no reason to feel humbled
in the presence of all this greatness!

Anyway - it's results that matter - who cares how you make it - if it's
beautiful it's beautiful!

:o)


BtB

PS I don't think the LCT factory would have used a grinder - ever! I think
they would have used one of these high pressure water cutter thingies if
they had been available!

PPS On second thoughts maybe LCT would have used a completely automated
assembly plant - if they had been available. The only thing he might have
resisted would have been automatic colour selection (for a while at least!)











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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 05:40:15 1999
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Don't you think if the even  HAD grinders BACK THEN they would have used them?
No doubt they hand filed everything.

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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
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> I know I am beating a dead horse here, but...........
> When thoses women made a poor cut, didn't they toss it and cut again?
> They did not pay for the glass and they were not paying $10/sq.ft for
> it. 

If Louis Tiffany was anything, he was a businessman first and 
foremost. Okay, he was an artist, too, and quite a good painter, but 
he excelled at business. The glass was manufacturered to his 
specifications by outfits he had "locked down" contractually, and 
while none of the glass would have cost $10/ft2 at the time (nothing 
was as expensive then as now), it would have been a considerable 
expense. Waste would have meant lost profits. A poor cutter wouldn't 
have lasted as an employee, most certainly not a female employee.

> So can't we use the expense, we are saving by grinding down the glass,
> for an excuss to use the grinder?
> At least until we are better glass cutters?

You see, that's the thing. Glass teachers these days who have their 
students learn to cut glass with a grinder close at hand are actually 
crippling their students in a way. It's like teaching a child to walk 
by insisting they use a walker like an 80-year-old. They'd never 
learn to walk correctly. Personally, I'd say that nobody learning to 
work with stained glass should be allowed to use a grinder until 
they'd learned to cut confidently and accurately most of the time.

Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
mark you as a good craftsman.

My opinion, natch.

Albert
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 07:12:39 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 08:50:29 +0000
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> Don't you think if the even  HAD grinders BACK THEN they would have used them?
> No doubt they hand filed everything.


Nope, don't think so. They just cut the glass correctly the first 
time. <smile>

A
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 08:16:18 1999
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Yeah!

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 09:50:43 1999
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Subject: Re: mirror sealant
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:05:39 EST
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Hi Laura,
I must agree with Peggy about using the clear nail polish (lacquer) on the
edges of the mirror.  I also use the nail polish on the very inside and
outside edge of the mirror where it may have chipped a bit.  I believe it is
the chipping that may have caused your intermittant problem.  Also, when you
spray the sealant, sometimes, you do not get the sides of the mirror.  I have
never had black rot after doing both steps.  The time it takes to insure an
unspoiled mirror is well worth the cost of the extra time to me.
Lenore 
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 10:51:32 1999
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At 04:27 14/02/99 +0000, Albert wrote:

>You see, that's the thing. Glass teachers these days who have their 
>students learn to cut glass with a grinder close at hand are actually 
>crippling their students in a way. It's like teaching a child to walk 
>by insisting they use a walker like an 80-year-old. They'd never 
>learn to walk correctly. Personally, I'd say that nobody learning to 
>work with stained glass should be allowed to use a grinder until 
>they'd learned to cut confidently and accurately most of the time.
>
>Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
>allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
>mark you as a good craftsman.
>
>My opinion, natch.

Just our philosophy too Albert.  We try to instill some accuracy into our
students before even letting them loose on our grinders.  Not because we are
mean or trying to hold them back but to make them learn to cut better.  What
is the point of them paying us to teach them if we withold the extra time it
takes to impart accuracy?  After all anyone can teach themselves to cut
glass to shape with a grinder and bandsaw at their elbow.
There is a studio/retail shop a few miles away from us who insist that their
students should buy a grinder after a couple of lessons as if it is one of
the basic tools needed to get started.  It makes teaching much easier for
their staff who have only a rudimentary grasp of cutting techniques themselves.
It also means that their students on the whole have no idea how to approach
cutting a difficult curve - and in effect dont try to be accurate as they
have been taught that it is normal to grind anything but a shallow easy curve.
And of course the business sells lots of grinders which is good for their
cash flow!

We have never ground all the edges on copper foiled work just to help the
foil stick and havent the time to waste on the extra washing and drying of
the glass that others have mentioned, but have had no problem with our foil
- we even use old foil that has been out of the packet for several years
without problems.  Must be the bracing sea air of sunny Bournemouth!

Elizabeth
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 11:52:05 1999
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Advances are made in tools and, well just about everything, because we fill
a need.  If molding cutters and shapers weren't invented we would still be
whittling molding.  50 years ago the attempts to do open heart surgery were
doomed to failure.  The know how and tools were not available.

I do, teach and sell a lot of stained glass, both finished goods and parts.
I use and teach with all the tools available to me.  My students can work as
they want, but they learn how to use grinders, saws, came stretchers, Morton
system, etc.  They also learn that if their work doesn't make them happy
that they should scrap it.  They should also sign their work because they're
proud of it.

I defy anyone to tell by examining a finished piece if a grinder was or
wasn't used.  I am no purist; but I love good work.

Arnold

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 12:45:06 1999
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> the basic tools needed to get started.  It makes teaching much easier for
> their staff who have only a rudimentary grasp of cutting techniques themselves.
<snip>
> And of course the business sells lots of grinders which is good for their
> cash flow!

Oops! The retailers will be out in force now, saying that we're 
"beating them up," or "not being nice" to them. But it's true here in 
the States (and apparently in the UK, as well) that many who open 
retail shops have only a rudimentary knowledge and skill set 
themselves. They learned the grinder "shortcut," so that's all they 
can teach. There's a place for a grinder, but it should be a 
seldom-used piece of equipment if one's interested in becoming 
a "skilled craftsperson" in the usual sense of the words.

"Cash flow" drives lots of different kinds of businesses, but it 
doesn't necessarily drive quality at the same time.

My humble opinion, of course. Others will beg to differ, I know.

Albert
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 13:13:13 1999
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If anyone is interested, you can see my new lead project at
http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/lead.html
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 13:20:16 1999
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Subject: Re: Shisha mirrors
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Honestly, I am not on their payroll, but National Artcraft has  1/2"
round and 1/2" square mirrors if that helps.. 5 packs of 10 for $0.70
per 5 pack..


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Hi Pam,

I think you can get those at any bead shop... you mean those =

little round mirrors that are embroidered into East Indian clothing,
right??

Best,

Dani Greer
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Did not know that.  Thank you Albert, and tis a small world, but would
not want to paint it.. hehehe
Gloria


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Published by our own Albert of Art in Architecture Press!  Small
world, no?!

Best,

Dani Greer

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 14:04:59 1999
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you all raise an interesting dilemma. My problem is that I'd rather not
grind as much as I do, but am not very proficient at cutting. Anybody
have any tips for more accurate cutting? Thanks,

Darlene
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Subject: Fwd: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:45:01 EST
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In a message dated 2/14/99 1:42:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, JJKIRBY writes:

<< << Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
  allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
  mark you as a good craftsman. >>
 
 The Luddites have won me over, I've fired up my barbeque and put 
 my "irons in the fire" - having thrown out my Weller as well as all that
 other stuff.
 
 Interesting concept - using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person,
 just less of a "good craftsman".  
 
 In fact, the entire craft is too dependent on tools entirely, I saw a show 
 where the early cavemen apparently chewed pigment and spit it on the
 walls of the caves - there's some craftsmanship!
 
 Craftspeople of the world unite!  Throw off your grinders, and irons, and
saws! >>


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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
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To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:42:53 EST
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<< Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
 allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
 mark you as a good craftsman. >>

The Luddites have won me over, I've fired up my barbeque and put 
my "irons in the fire" - having thrown out my Weller as well as all that
other stuff.

Interesting concept - using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person,
just less of a "good craftsman".  

In fact, the entire craft is too dependent on tools entirely, I saw a show 
where the early cavemen apparently chewed pigment and spit it on the
walls of the caves - there's some craftsmanship!

Craftspeople of the world unite!  Throw off your grinders, and irons, and
saws!

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 16:12:13 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: balloch@netbridge.net
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Subject: Re: Bumper stickers so far Revised
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 14:59:04 -0800
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References: <<36C61046.1127@netbridge.net>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> Shirley Balloch wrote:
> >
> > Shirley Balloch wrote:
> > >
> > > Shirley Balloch wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > You bet your sweet glass...
> > > > > A Glass of It's Own
> > > > > Get Glassed!
> > > > > Glassified
> > > > > "I'd rather be scoring"
> > > > > Torched.
> > > > >  "snaps under pressure"
> > > > > > "on the cutting edge"
> > > > > > "grinds with the best of 'em"
> > > > > > "%$&#, foiled again!"
> > > > > "Leaded be"
> > > > > ... and leaded be Light.
> > > > > And God saw it was good.
> > > > > Curses, Foiled again.
> > > > > "Glass Artists Say No to Crack!"
> > > > >
> > > > > Honk if you love stained glass"
> > > > > "If you seek beauty, work with stained glass"
> > > > > "Visualize....stained glass"
> > > > > My windows can beat your windows"
> > > > >            /\                            _________________
> > > > >                   /    \
> > > > > \                            /
> > > > >                 /        \                         \   Stained Glass  /
> > > > >               / Beauty \                        \         on          /
> > > > >             /      on      \                        \     Board      /
> > > > >           /      Board    \                         \                /
> > > > >          /____________\                         \_______/
> > > > > "View the world through stained glass"
> > > > > "glassers know the score."
> > > > >  "glassers know how to score."
> > > > >
> > > > > "Get your Glass in Gear!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Lead, Foil, or get out of the way!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "My other car is a Kiln"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Don't laugh, I spend my $$$ on Glass."
> > > > >
> > > > > "Aw flux, foiled again!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "To bead, or not to bead"  (Shakespeare)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Keep your glass to the grindstone"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Oh, Frit...blasted again!"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Use Came, or Foil, Then Solder"  (Caesar said it best! I came, I saw..
> > > > > well
> > > > > you know)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Working my Glass Off!"  (has a double meaning)
> > > > >
> > > > > "You have got to be fidding?"  (Now I am killing myself!!!  LOL)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Grozing in the Glass"  song - (Grazing in the grass)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Got Glass?"  (and we could all have little glass moustaches)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Super cooled liquid manipulator"  (okay, a little on the egghead side)
> > > > >
> > > > > "Heart of Glass"  (Blondie's back you know?)
> > > > >
> > > > >  GIVE BLOOD
> > > > >         become a stained-glass artist
> > > > > Stained Glass Artists - a cut above the rest.
> > > > > The Pane ........ ohhhhh the Pane.
> > > > > "Life is a multicolored Pane."
> > > > >
> > > > > "Life is a Pane in the Glass"
> > > > >
> > > > > "I look at life thru multicolored glasses"
> > > > >
> > > > > "If the pieces fit.....solder them!"
> > > > I'd rather be scoring  ..... than snoring!
> > > I'd rather be leading
> > >  If Stained Glass was cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it!!
> > "lead, foil, or get the hell out of the way!"
> > "> "Lead, follow, or get the h*ll out of the way!"
>  I'd rather groze.  (instead of score?)
>  If Stained Glass was cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it!!
>  "The Brit Chick Rules".
>  I'd rather groze.  (instead of score?)
> Stained glass is a grind.
Stained glass groze on you.
Geez...I'd rather score (or get lucky) anyday!!
"Once you learn how to Score, Grinding and Grozing comes easy." 
Grozing in the Glass.
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 16:42:56 1999
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From: stainglasborzoi@webtv.net (GLORIA DRAG)
To: gjr@daver.bungi.com (Glenna Rand), glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: My lead restoration project
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NIce work.   I never did a restoration., Thanks  for sharing, Gloria


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From: gjr@daver.bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
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Subject: My lead restoration project
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 11:53:45 -0800 (PST)
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If anyone is interested, you can see my new lead project at
http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/lead.html
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 17:13:19 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:17:16 +0000
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> you all raise an interesting dilemma. My problem is that I'd rather not
> grind as much as I do, but am not very proficient at cutting. Anybody
> have any tips for more accurate cutting?

The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. <smile> Practice, practice, 
practice.

Albert
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Subject: RE: Glenna's restoration project
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:15:06 EST
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Glenna: what an amazing transformation!  You made something very lovely out of
a mess.  The proper aging will do it every time!  Kathi from Wisconsin
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 17:43:49 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: JJKIRBY@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 19:26:46 -0500
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JJKIRBY writes:
>
>
>While I certainly respect the abillity to cut glass perfectly with no
mechanical
>aids... in those rare instances when I have been able to accomplish  the
feat, 
>I've found that copper foil doesn't stick well to a clean cut,  so I 
find myself lightly 
>grinding the edge in any case.

	Copper foil will stick fine to a clean cut but not to DIRTY GLASS.  Try
just dipping your well cut pieces in plain water and towel drying them
and I'll bet that problem would be solved.
>
>Do you never have to use groziers either?  I rarely have a smooth edge 
>after
>grozing.
>
>While I agree sometimes grinding is time wasted.   I  think teachers 
>want students to be able to have the satisfaction of a completed project

>with mimimal pain.

	Don't get me wrong.  I never said that I am against the use of grinders.
 I allow my students to use grinders in class but they must use it only
when necessary, as an easy alternative to a grozing plier.
I've had many students take my class that had been instructed elsewhere
that the proper stained glass technique involves intentionally cutting
every piece of glass too large or with no allowance for foil, then
grinding each piece down to size.  This is almost as absurd as a
carpenter replacing his saw with a belt sander.
	I start every beginner class by making a small panel and explaining all
the techniques used along the way.  Just to prove the point I never use
the grinder on this project but always demonstrate the use of the grinder
on scrap as an alternative to grozing.
	The BIG problem all begins because the beginner is allowed by this
flawed technique of OVER GRINDING to produce a product that is
deceptively good.  Once having made a nice looking product, the thought
of the next not being as good or better is unbearable.  Sure they'd like
to try cutting the glass better but the fear that it will come out too
small and the solder lines will be fat or uneven is overwhelming.  Almost
from the first project they're hooked!
	I tell my students that there is no shame in making an imperfect piece. 
"Send it off to your relatives in California.  They'll LOVE it and you
won't have to look at it.  Each piece will be better than the last and
you'll quickly learn to do it better." 
	Currently there has been a lot of discussion about the prices on that
lady's web site.   Someone pointed out the hourly rate, calculated  by
dividing the price by her claimed hours,  result in wages  that are not
beyond reason, something like $25.00/ hour.  This may be so, but taking
that long to make those products IS WAY beyond reason.  If that is the
case the client is being asked to pay extra for inexperience and flawed
technique. Perhaps another element in the  price is a few nice new
grinder heads per panel?

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 17:58:03 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Glenna Rand" <gjr@daver.bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: My lead restoration project
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 16:29:31 -0800
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Glenna writes:
>>If anyone is interested, you can see my new lead project at
http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/lead.html<<

Restoration? Hell, I call that post demolation salvation. It is much harder
to restore a window that is missing areas of glass because the new glass
must be cut to fit with the existing glass. In this case I would have
charged more to repair the window than to make a brand new one of the same
pattern because the skill and labor would have been more.

Did you brush up that nice black patina or what? Looks great. Bob


Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 17:59:04 1999
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Hi,  either it's real quiet here or I've been cut off.


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 19:12:25 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: tiime/cost of finished product
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 18:17:07 -0800
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I have over the years (see archives) ALWAYS advocated keeping time of how
long a "project" takes. A simple analog clock and a on/off switch works
fine.
I know how many square feet I used to make a shade, solder, foil, filigree
and or hardware, jewels and so on.
Some of my shades may only use 2 or a fraction more sq. feet of glass and
sell for ONLY $2,200 (without base)....That is only a $1,000 or so per
square foot....A VERY POOR example of a like shade from elsewhere may sell
for $199.00, and should that influence my pricing.......I think
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
No easy answer to pricing, some work only to stay busy, others  to replace
material, some for FAMILY (UGH!), some guess at a price, some for the
privilege to be exploited, and a few who do it as a profession. I do other
things for free but NOT GLASS! ( with the exception of occasional and
selected "net advice). I volunteer at 2 marine facilities (handle and feed
and work with 6 or 7 octopuses) , assist friends with FREE investing advice,
both "net" and broker type.
The old saw "if you have to ask how much it costs. you cannot afford
it".....hopefully reflects my clients.
later, H



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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:24:40 -0500
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Albert,  you're right....But I'll take the telephone over smoke signals any
time,,,

Arnold


-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter


>
>> the basic tools needed to get started.  It makes teaching much easier for
>> their staff who have only a rudimentary grasp of cutting techniques
themselves.
><snip>
>> And of course the business sells lots of grinders which is good for their
>> cash flow!
>
>Oops! The retailers will be out in force now, saying that we're
>"beating them up," or "not being nice" to them. But it's true here in
>the States (and apparently in the UK, as well) that many who open
>retail shops have only a rudimentary knowledge and skill set
>themselves. They learned the grinder "shortcut," so that's all they
>can teach. There's a place for a grinder, but it should be a
>seldom-used piece of equipment if one's interested in becoming
>a "skilled craftsperson" in the usual sense of the words.
>
>"Cash flow" drives lots of different kinds of businesses, but it
>doesn't necessarily drive quality at the same time.
>
>My humble opinion, of course. Others will beg to differ, I know.
>
>Albert
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>

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To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
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Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:33:20 -0500
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Like geting into Carnagie Hall....You must practice, and practice and
practice.  You can do it.

Arnold


-----Original Message-----
From: Darlene Hendler <mb.sympatico.ca@mb.sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 14, 1999 5:28 PM
Subject: cutting vs. grinding


>you all raise an interesting dilemma. My problem is that I'd rather not
>grind as much as I do, but am not very proficient at cutting. Anybody
>have any tips for more accurate cutting? Thanks,
>
>Darlene
>----
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>
>

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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
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Subject: wow!
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 21:43:28 -0500
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I bet she's great at jigsaw puzzles!

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 20:50:50 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 22:56:56 -0500
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Well, I for one think that *how something is made does count... if
the end result was all that mattered, then stained glass overlay
ought to replace *Real stained glass.

But, Brian makes a good point.  If you wanna buy a grinder, buy
one.  If you wanna buy ten grinders, do that too, you'll be making
lots of retailers happy.  Buy some saws while you're at it.  But,
don't every apply for a job at my studio... you won't get the job.
Just my pompous opinion, of course!

Best regards,

Dani Greer (who could use a couple of apprentices right now.... =

anybody out there who can cut glass and doesn't have a grinder?)
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 14 23:01:15 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Glenna's restoration
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:08:36 -0500
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Marvelous work, Glenna.  I'm sure your neighbors will be =

thrilled to tears not only by your kindness, but by the end result!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 00:02:35 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 23:13:26 -0500
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>Like geting into Carnagie Hall....You must practice, and practice and
>practice.  You can do it.

While you are correct that practice is going to improve your skills at
almost anything and is very important....it can also aggrevate problems if
you are practicing the wrong techiques....and how are newbies to know the
differnace?

I think it would be more helpful to newbies on the list if someone would be
willing to few glass cutting techinques that have proved useful rather than
telling us to just go do it....I'm sure we would if we knew how in the first
place.   I myself will go down to my work bench, and even if I do not feel
like working on a project at the moument, will play with some scrap glass
just to see what I can do...but a few hints certainly wouldn't hurt my
pride.

Soraya



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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 01:26:25 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 20:41:18 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb14.124118.0>
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>>> you all raise an interesting dilemma. My problem is that I'd rather not
> grind as much as I do, but am not very proficient at cutting. Anybody
> have any tips for more accurate cutting?

The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. <smile> Practice, practice,
practice.<<

Here is a good way to practice:

1. Get some scrap or low cost glass that is at least six inches or so
square,
2. Have your cutting table at a comfortable cutting height with good
lighting,
3. Take a magic marker and draw a gently waving line on the glass about
1/16" wide,
4. Score the glass on the very edge of one side of the line using enough
pressure to hear the cutter but not so much as to have the cutter screech,
try for even pressure throughout the score,
5. Break the score with runners, breakers or by hand,
6. Examine the cut edges to see if they are straight, have only light even
marks from the cutter and were cut at the very edge of the marker line,
7. Repeat the above exercise until you have it down to perfection,
8. Stop after 20 minutes and try again in not less than two hours.

At any rate that is what I did. After a while it comes easy. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 04:04:44 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Illuminated stepping stones
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 00:57:40 -0600
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Shirley, Pam...etc....

This is the info they give on the ebay page.
>   These super strength light transfer polymers are durable.They can 
>      withstand
>      the extremes of teperatures from desert to northern winters,     >      resist garden chemicals and can support 300lbs of
>      direct weight. Can be installed in any existing 12 volt lighting >       system in minutes. They are made by "Advanced
>      Products Development Co." P.O. Box5835 Pasadena,CA. 

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=65298545

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 06:47:30 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 05:22:35 +0000
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> The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. <smile> Practice, practice,
> practice.<<
> 
> Here is a good way to practice:

Bob, your suggestions were much better than mine. By the way, I woke 
up in the middle of the night thinking my attitude here might not be 
the best ... or a least misperceived.  I'm not sneering at those who 
use grinders, not at all. I am trying to encourage everyone and 
anyone to increase their skills, to always become better at 
glassworking than they now are. My heart's in the right place; I woke 
up worried because I thought I might have hurt some feelings. If I 
did, my apologies.

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 06:57:46 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:35:15 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.103515.0>
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Dani

I'm stunned that you can't tell the difference between between stained glass
overlay and real stained glass - I sure can! VBG

I was of course refering to the method not materials as I think you
understand perfectly!

You are an excellent craftsperson and your opinion is much respected - I
have never thought of you as pompous. Like all highly skilled people you may
be (just occasionally)  a little impatient with your lessers perhaps.  I for
one look to people like you to sort me out on method and technique. I was
very interested to read what you said about zinc - I has made me rethink my
use of it!

I am appalled that there is so very little skill in the world. My old
business (locksmith) seldom even repairs a lock since I left. When I started
I used to make locks from scratch. Sadly that is the way of the world and I
must agree it does not make it a better place. Everybody's brains died when
the invented the pocket calculator and even the simplest mental arithmatic
seems to defeat everyone now! Very sad but the sums do get done. That's the
point really. Technology is designed to make the difficult easy - it is
therefore fundamental that it destoys skill - but never forget its great and
hugely redeeming feature - It also enables.

If I lived in the States I would snap up one of those apprentice positions
instantly even though I could hardly be considered a beginner and I would be
delighted to learn 'properly' HOW EVER LONG IT TOOK! It would be great if
everybody could do that.

I never had the benefit of any lessons whatsoever and I muddled through and
whilst I'm not the greatest glass cutter in the world I do cut in preference
to grinding. That is a result of time and a good deal of gritty
determination. But if hadn't found a cheat (grinder!) along the way I
wouldn't be irritating you right now - I'd be potting or knitting or
something!

As I understand it they originally cut glass with a hot poker. I would
dearly love to learn it how to do that - what a great demonstration for the
public!  When I eventually get over there to visit you all perhaps you would
take a few minutes to teach me? VVBG



BtB

>Well, I for one think that *how something is made does count... if
>the end result was all that mattered, then stained glass overlay
>ought to replace *Real stained glass.
>
>But, Brian makes a good point.  If you wanna buy a grinder, buy
>one.  If you wanna buy ten grinders, do that too, you'll be making
>lots of retailers happy.  Buy some saws while you're at it.  But,
>don't every apply for a job at my studio... you won't get the job.
>Just my pompous opinion, of course!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer (who could use a couple of apprentices right now.... =
>
>anybody out there who can cut glass and doesn't have a grinder?)






-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Date: 15 February 1999 04:53
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools


>Well, I for one think that *how something is made does count... if
>the end result was all that mattered, then stained glass overlay
>ought to replace *Real stained glass.
>
>But, Brian makes a good point.  If you wanna buy a grinder, buy
>one.  If you wanna buy ten grinders, do that too, you'll be making
>lots of retailers happy.  Buy some saws while you're at it.  But,
>don't every apply for a job at my studio... you won't get the job.
>Just my pompous opinion, of course!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer (who could use a couple of apprentices right now.... =
>
>anybody out there who can cut glass and doesn't have a grinder?)
>www.igga.org/greer/   =
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 07:15:03 1999
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Subject: Re: My lead restoration project
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 05:58:06 EST
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Hi Glenna,
You must be sooooo proud of yourself!  Looks terrific!  I can see now why you
just HAD to restore it!!!  You couldn't possibly think of using the glass as
scraps, as your neighbors had suggested.  Let us know how they react to your
masterpiece restoration!
Lenore
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 07:23:54 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:42:52 +0000
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Hi all,
A sudent arrived a couple of weeks ago to my class; she had already 
"done" s.g., she had attended a copper foil course (using grinders) 
with a colleague located further north from me, based at a respected 
Crafts College, and whom I have met on a number of occasions.
Which was why I was horrified to see said student graunching about on 
a piece of practice glass as if she was digging for gold.
I have now spent a total of 3 hours standing behind her watching her, 
correcting, goading, guiding and praising. This is an instant where 
hands on demo is worth a thousand words and EVEN a hundred pictures.
You just do not hold a glass cutter as if it was a pencil.
"But YOUR way is uncomfortable!", my students protest.
Only at first,  I reassure them time and time again. You will get 
used to it and then it becomes second nature.....

There is ALWAYS a reason for a "bad" score;
holding the glass cutter incorrectly
too little pressure
too much pressure
uneven score line
a sharp "kink" in the score line
scoring over another score line
tackling glass beyond your experience
tackling curves not intended for glass
you have damaged your cutter wheel

In 95 percent these are the reasons why the glass shatter or the 
score line takes off. Address these problems and you should succeed 
95 times out of a 100. Talking about numbers..... I agree 100 percent 
with Dani! 
I have already submitted my application form   ;->
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Also sprach unsere
Dani Greer (who could use a couple of apprentices right now.... =

anybody out there who can cut glass and doesn't have a grinder?)
www.igga.org/greer/   =

----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 07:30:20 1999
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 06:35:15 EST
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Hi Bob,
Very good advice you gave on practicing for the allusive, "Perfect Score"!  I
would like to add that it is nice to start on clear window glass (can't
remember the formal name right now).  There are 2 reasons I suggest this.
First, it is free if you ask your local hardware store for scraps.  I received
tons of large sheets, up to 18"x20", as well as smaller pieces.  You can feel
quite comfortable scoring something which was only going to be trashed anyway.
Hence, there is no guilt associated with tossing the practice pieces out.
Second, it is the easiest glass to score.  This will promote confidence very
quickly.  So after you have mastered this glass, you can move onto some low-
cost glass.  You will waste much less low-cost glass after initially
practicing on the easiest glass.  My students love this and quickly get good
at scoring harder glasses.  It is just a matter of 1 step at a time.
Hope this helps.
Lenore
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 08:00:06 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:46:03 -0500
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2/14/99 11:13 PM Soraya soraya@cros.net

>While you are correct that practice is going to improve your skills at
>almost anything and is very important....it can also aggrevate problems if
>you are practicing the wrong techiques....and how are newbies to know the
>differnace?
>
Soraya,

Here's what I've found best when cutting a deep inside curve: score on 
the correct curve (1). Take off the edges outside of the curve to lessen 
any tension. Starting from the unused part of the glass, make a smaller 
curve following the same general line of your good curve but making it 
only halfway across the width (2). Make another one starting a bit before 
score 2 ends, same general shape and ending inside the score 1. Depending 
on how deep is your curve, you can make any number of more scores in a 
similar fashion. They should look like small hills. 

Then take each section off carefully and slowly starting of course from 
curve (2).

Hope this helps. It would be so much easier if I could show you. There is 
a great book called Stained Glass Basics by George Shannon & Pat Torlen, 
Sterling Publishing, N.Y. that gives diagrams.

Suzanne

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 08:31:19 1999
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:29:05 -0500
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2/15/99 12:22 AM Albert Lewis alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net

. My heart's in the right place; I woke 
>up worried because I thought I might have hurt some feelings.

Oh Albert, we *know your heart's in the right place! Never fear.

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 09:31:01 1999
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From: Paula Nelson <pjnelson@glassdogstudio.com>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:28:26 -0600
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Hi all,

I was a member of this list about a year and a half ago, then dropped of
due to other committments. I just came back on and after what I discovered
last night - I had to send this in.....

I'm working on a commission that's due for presentation in April and in the
middle of cutting, I discovered that my groziers had walked off. I recently
moved and I'd hand-packed and moved all of my glass, equipment etc to keep
just this very thing from happening. I've leave to imagination my comments
<S>.

I was on a roll and miffed that I couldn't find them, so out of frustration
I took out the tile cutters that I use for tessere. I decided to try them
and while I can't get into small places with them, they were fantastic.
They happily nipped off the pointed ends and even did a fair grozing - as
long as I watched the torque I applied. 

These aren't "mosaic cutters" with the disks... these are cutters that you
can pick up in any tile department of any big hardware store. They have
become a part of my first string tool as of the results.


Paula Nelson
glassdog@glassdogstudio.com

http://www.glassdogstudio.com/TGDS.htm
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 09:54:34 1999
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 09:51:44 -0600
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At 09:33 PM 2/14/99 -0500, Granny And PawPaw wrote:
>Like geting into Carnagie Hall....You must practice, and practice and
>practice.  You can do it.

I agree completely, and and least with me it's like riding a bicycle - once
you get it....

I would ask a question  - what style of cutter do you use? I have three,
all Toyo's - a barrel - my first, a pistol grip and the little short one
that fits into your hand (don't know what it's called - I call it a crutch,
heh). I was uncomfortable with the barrel; while I can cut with it - the
scores were inconsistant; the pistol grip is great for long lines I've
discovered; but for close cutting I can't be without the crutch. It does
take some getting used to, but it becomes an extension of your hand if you
catch my meaning. I found that the 'classic' hand style didn't work for me
and when I saw one of these being used - I decided to try it. I only need
to swipe glass against the grinder now - if I even have to do that.

Everyone has a different style - and a different point of balance for what
'feels right'. Once you get that down it'd might make an extreme difference.

Perhaps... it also depends on what you are using for a pattern. If it's
craft paper (manila folderish), it will guide your cutter.

Just some thoughts.......


Paula Nelson
glassdog@glassdogstudio.com

http://www.glassdogstudio.com/TGDS.htm
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 10:27:51 1999
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:04:01 EST
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Hi,
	I almost hate to use this, but the old comedian Henny Youngman has a great
old line, which answers your question> A man stops another on the streets of
New York, looking for directions. "How, he asks, does one get to Carnagie
Hall?" The second man replies,"practice, practice, practice!! (God, I must be
getting really old)

However trite this may be, 'tis true. I personally have cut up loads of "float
glass", as cheap as I can find it, and sometimes, when I am having cutting
difficulty (although far less often now) I still do this. For what its worth!

Richard
Glassics, Inc
Valencia, Ca.
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 11:04:25 1999
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Subject: Re:  Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:39:50 EST
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>I know I'm new to this but when I took a class we were not told about danger
>in glass dust??

When I grow up and get my "dream studio," I'm going to install a humongous
ceiling-mounted vent hood over my work table, with a HEPA filter, and do all
my grinding *and* soldering under it. So there!


Sparks, with fond memories of the high-airflow enclosed fume hoods
		 in my college chemistry labs, but realizing that they'd be
		 impractical in this line of work.........
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 11:25:56 1999
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:17:34 -0600
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Ok..

Not wanting to go see Elisabeth with *all* my glass having met my
grinder....(I told ya I was scared)

I have been inspecting each of my breaks to critique each and every
score.  This is what I have found...

My score looks good (to me) right amount of pressure and appears even.

When I have a very thin amount of glass to break off...if it doesnt all
come off together, I find little mountains on the glasses broken edge
(make sense?) but the line is fine on the top and bottom of the glass. 
The mini mountain is what I would grind off.  Cant groze it off without
getting into my peice of glass.

Another thing I find is with a wavy score, the top side line is fine...
but it doesnt break straight up and down on the edge...so that the
bottom side of the glass comes out a little further than the top. A
small slope.  Sheesh this challenges my communications skills.

Is this caused by not holding my cutter staight up and down?  Hope you
guys can visualise what I am referring to.

There isnt much to grind off..just enough to make my glass straight up
and down.  Am I tilting???

I hold my cutter like an ice pick! ;o)  This assumes that y'all know how
to hold an ice pick to judge how I hold my cutter!

Thanks 

Tulsa Suzanne
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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Also sprach esavad@home.net:

>the glass may have been alot softer

If it was anything like some of the reproduction glass you can get today, it
may have been a lot *harder.* In which case it's all the more amazing that
they could work it without a grinder. That Yough stuff can be a real pain in
the tutu!

But ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, it's gorgeous when it's done............


Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 12:22:13 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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In a message dated 2/13/99 4:10:56 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com wrote:

>Sorry, Sparks, it's absolutely not necessary with copperfoil...
>we don't grind any more with foil than with lead.   In a foiled
>window of, say, 350 pieces, I *might grind 10 -20.... maybe. [...]

Having tried a few times to put things together without grinding and wasted an
incredible amount of time and foil trying to apply the foil evenly and to get
it to stick (any amount of oil, no matter how little, is too much in my
experience), I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've found
that the time it takes to grind everything (assuming that the pieces are cut
reasonably accurately in the first place, in which it just takes a quick zip
around) *and* foil it is less than the time it took to foil unground pieces
decently.

It's also worth it in safety. I've sliced myself good a couple of times trying
to foil unground edges.

So unless and until I develop a "magic touch" like Dani & co. seem to have,
I'm going to stick with what works. A fabulous finished product is what's
important!

BTW, when you do copperfoil work, what thickness of foil do you use? I mostly
use the 1 mil stuff. And are you hand-foiling or using a foiling machine?


Sparks
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Subject: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 13:24:10 EST
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Also sprach Albert:

>>You see, that's the thing. Glass teachers these days who have their 
>>students learn to cut glass with a grinder close at hand are actually 
>>crippling their students in a way. It's like teaching a child to walk 
>>by insisting they use a walker like an 80-year-old. They'd never 
>>learn to walk correctly. Personally, I'd say that nobody learning to 
>>work with stained glass should be allowed to use a grinder until 
>>they'd learned to cut confidently and accurately most of the time.
>>
>>Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not 
>>allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would 
>>mark you as a good craftsman.
>>
>>My opinion, natch.

I disagree completely........

First off, I compare my experience in learning glass craft with my experience
when I learned to sew, for instance. When I started to learn to sew on the
machine (at age 8), I had to do a lot of pinning, basting, extra measuring,
etc. so my work would go together smoothly. As I got better at it, the basting
was the first to go (except in really tricky spots), then most of the pins,
and I learned to "eyeball" the width of an elastic casing or a 2" hem. Now I
can sew in a zipper by machine with no pinning at all, "eyeball" alterations,
cobble together my own patterns, etc.

No one would ever have suggested that I run the sewing machine at top speed
right off the bat, or put together my first sewing projects without pinning
before running the piece through the machine. And yes, I *can* hand sew
(learned that first, along with embroidery, starting around age 5), and
usually do my mending that way 'cause I feel too lazy to set up the machine
for something small. But ordinarily I don't do that when making something new,
and (except for the real die-hard "period garb" makers who even spin, weave
and dye their own cloth), no one expects new clothes to be made that way!

Second, I think the way any individual person works depends at least in part
on what "level" one jumps in at (incidentally, my first machine-sewing
projects were Barbie doll clothes, which require 1/4" seams and very precise
fitting) *and* on one's level of physical coordination. I've never done
stained glass as a hobby or taken any formal lessons; I got "thrown in the
deep end" when Christie needed some extra help. I've had to rely on my own
mechanical aptitude and learn on the fly what's the most efficient way for
*me* to work, and sometimes it's not the way she works. I have a rather shaky
hand, so my work style compensates for that; for instance, I have to use a lot
more push pins than she does when I'm assembling something - but as a result I
don't waste time repositioning pieces I've knocked out of kilter! There have
even been a couple of times when she's picked up on a trick or two of mine.

There's also the way one's brain is wired conceptually - questions of "Do you
put the shirt on the hanger, or the hanger in the shirt?" and "Do you put the
thread through the eye of the needle, or slip the eye of the needle over the
end of the thread?" In both instances it's the latter for me. I also do a lot
of things naturally from right to left even though I'm mostly right-handed in
a left-to-right society (incidentally, I'm also mostly left-footed). Realizing
that I'm wired "conceptually backwards" and allowing myself to work according
to the way I'm wired has been an overwhelmingly empowering thing; by following
my own wiring, I'm able to do things I was never able to learn "the regular
way" no matter how hard I tried - and do them well.

There's also the question of any person's own natural pace and rhythm. I'm a
naturally "fast" worker, and my rhythms are way different from those of a
naturally "slow" worker. What works for me is simply different from what works
for a slow worker - a notable example being that I didn't learn to solder
smoothly until I cranked the iron way up and let my natural pace take over
instead of trying to do it slowly with a cooler iron, which resulted in a lot
of unevenness.

I find that for me personally, that "natural pace" has a mental component too;
if I try to slow down what I'm doing physically, I often lose track and get
confused because the flow is interrupted. (I've always been that way, maybe
it's an "ADD thang.")

It's also important to draw a distinction between learning glass (or any art
or craft) as a hobby (which is where almost everyone starts out) and entering
an apprenticeship in a high-end pro shop. The point of doing glass as a hobby
is as much to provide relaxation and "a place to escape to" as to produce
beautiful things. Nobody's judging your performance, counting up the sheets of
glass you destroy, or breathing down your neck to make you "work faster" like
they do all day in the "real world." There's a lot of ground, some of it
occupied by people who do beautiful work and get paid for it (which, all
hairsplitting aside, is the fundamental definition of "professional") between
the two extremes; it's not an either/or situation. And if this or that tool
enables someone to avoid frustration and do neater work while developing their
skills and getting ready for the next level, who are we - any of us, even
those who have been at it for 30 years - to criticize?

Finally (and I speak from experience as a supervisor too, this having been a
really stinkin' hard lesson for me to learn on that side), I think it's just a
little teeny bit (OK, more like a lot) on the arrogant and overcontrolling
side for anyone in any line of work to insist that everyone - even their own
employees - do every itty bitty detail "my way or the highway." Getting the
work done well and in a timely manner - and *safely* as well - is what's
important.

The upshot of it is, everyone doesn't - indeed *can't* - work the same way.
We've all got to do what's most efficient for us. And I think the "crutch"
argument is *way* over-used. One person's crutch is another person's valuable
tool. Everyone doesn't stay in "training wheels" mode forever; I dare say most
of us are more than eager to get away from the training wheels!

And BTW, Albert: in 40-something years I've never known a healthy, able-bodied
baby who used a walker and never learned to walk without it - or one who
learned to stand without pulling him- or herself up on the furniture or mom's
or dad's leg or the drapes or the dog or whatever else was handy. Eventually
all babies are off and running unless some abusive ghoul kicked their feet out
from under them once too many. And whether we're learning to walk or to do
glass, as we grow and develop, we all arrive at our own conclusions about
what's necessary and what's not.............

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 12:47:40 1999
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Also sprach Albert:

>The best one I ever saw was a large carton with forklift entry holes 
>inserted midway in the box, penetration most of the way through, too. 
>It didn't go out that way, but it certainly came back in modified 
>form.

Hmmmmmmm......... sounds like the work of some frustrated "performance artist"
to me.......

For anyone who missed it, once again I'll quote the guy at my local "Mail
Boxes Etc." who said, "everything you ship goes down at least a mile of
conveyor belt and gets flipped every which way before it gets where it's
going."

Let the packer beware.


Sparks (former Paranoid Professionsl Post-Office Proofer)
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 13:07:20 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:38:08 +0000
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Brian,
This may be a bit late do to an accident.

The emphasis here is *first tools*

as a first tool, the grinder can make the time when accurate cutting is
achieved much longer to achieve.  The objective is to get good skill
levels which will stay with them through their career.

I have access to two (yes, two grinders), but I try to use them very
little.

You, it seems to me, progressed in the way I would wish people did.
Building up your skills until you needed the grinder as a convenient aid
rather than a necessity.

Just so you will know, I admit to grinding glass to fit leaded panels,
when my cutting has not been up to standard.  So I'm not trying to be
superior, just trying to get the individual who asked the question about
first tools, to delay purchase of a grinder (and you will remember a
band saw) as first tools.


Steve


In message <1999Feb14.10459.0@?>, Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
writes
>Hello
>
>Ok if we aren't going to slam peoples work or pricing then let's slam their
>techniques! BG
>
>I don't think anybody would deny that there people in this world who are
>better at cutting glass that others - they must be they tell us so! Ok then
>that gives us all something to aspire to.
>
>I admire all skilled people. No skills are easily won and they are priceless
>to those who have them and a wonder to observe. We all venerate
>craftsmanship!
>
>We should all remember that a grinder is an enabling tool. It allows people
>to make things in stained glass without having to acquire the cutting skills
>first. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in this urgent age.
>
>I began by grozing from the start. My cutting was appalling. Then I got a
>grinder so I groze then ground to shape. As my skills improved I gave up
>nearly!) grozing and ground only. Now I ALWAYS grind lightly (at least!)
>just so that I can handle and foil the piece with confidence.
>
>I will not be admonished for using a work pattern that suits me!
>
>So all you non grinders can go around patting your selves and your friends
>on the back and feeling holier than everybody else if it makes you happy -
>you deserve it.
>
>All you grinders need feel no remorse. You are good guys as well! Your
>skills will come if you work at them but you have no reason to feel humbled
>in the presence of all this greatness!
>
>Anyway - it's results that matter - who cares how you make it - if it's
>beautiful it's beautiful!
>
>:o)
>
>
>BtB
>
>PS I don't think the LCT factory would have used a grinder - ever! I think
>they would have used one of these high pressure water cutter thingies if
>they had been available!
>
>PPS On second thoughts maybe LCT would have used a completely automated
>assembly plant - if they had been available. The only thing he might have
>resisted would have been automatic colour selection (for a while at least!)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 13:11:17 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 10:58:11 -0800
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Don't worry, Albert, I am a die-hard grinder abusers.
I will agree to disagree anytime with you.
No hurt feelings here.
Shirley B

Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > The same way you get to Carnegie Hall. <smile> Practice, practice,
> > practice.<<
> >
> > Here is a good way to practice:
> 
> Bob, your suggestions were much better than mine. By the way, I woke
> up in the middle of the night thinking my attitude here might not be
> the best ... or a least misperceived.  I'm not sneering at those who
> use grinders, not at all. I am trying to encourage everyone and
> anyone to increase their skills, to always become better at
> glassworking than they now are. My heart's in the right place; I woke
> up worried because I thought I might have hurt some feelings. If I
> did, my apologies.
> 
> Albert
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x�>"3
�
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 13:32:41 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re:  Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
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> When I grow up and get my "dream studio," I'm going to install a humongous
> ceiling-mounted vent hood over my work table, with a HEPA filter, and do all
> my grinding *and* soldering under it. So there!
>  
> Sparks, with fond memories of the high-airflow enclosed fume hoods
> 		 in my college chemistry labs, but realizing that they'd be
> 		 impractical in this line of work.........


Yes, they are expensive. But given the tendency of employees to sue 
employers and OSHA to shut down studios that are not practicing 
healthy work habits, the cost would be quickly offset if even one 
employee (or yourself) were kept healthier.

In the studio my wife runs, all unzipping and other "dirty" jobs that 
loft lead dust or other particles into the air, such work is done in 
a clean room that's part of the studio. Its doors can be shut, 
overhead vacuum conduits can be moved to right above the work. Even 
so, the craftspeople wear respirators.

Of course, they're wearing the studio-issued coveralls anyway. They 
do that every day. Change from their civvies into the coveralls at 
the beginning of the day; change back at the end of the day. The 
studio covers the cost of the coveralls and has them washed by a 
commercial service specializing in hazardous wastes. Every day, a 
clean, new pair of coveralls. Good washing habits before going to 
lunch (on the other floor). Etc. Blood tests on a regular basis.

Of course, they do a ton of restoration work, so unzipping old 
windows is a big part of the job. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 13:46:48 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
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Subject: RE: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:48:04 -0500
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Serious Question?

Even on a good score and break, the top or bottom edge may have a sharp sliver edge. 
Why groze when you can grind lightly?

Linda
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 13:53:21 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:41:44 -0500
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Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> >>for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
> if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
> needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
> 20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
> holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them.
> 
> ---Mike Savad<<
> 
> I've got the answer, "Savad at least had electricity in his studio and might
> have gotten ahold of one of the early models. How else could he have done
> sky city!" Bob
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Think glass, have class.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


shhh... not so loud... i don't want everyone to know i have one... :)

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:06:31 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:40:05 -0500
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Steve Richard wrote:
> 
> In message <1999Feb13.112443.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
> >Albert Lewis wrote:
> >>
> >> > Grinding may be optional if you're doing lead work, but it's absolutely
> >> > necessary with copper foil, otherwise you'll slice your foil to
> >> shreds!
> >>
> >> Hmm. I wonder what those 250 women working for L.C. Tiffany building
> >> lamps did about that? No grinders back then. Heck, they hardly had
> >> any electrical lighting to speak of! T'was very much the New Thing.
> >>
> >> Albert
> >> ----
> >
> >but... would they have used a grinder if they had it back then? that's
> >the question. i say yes they would have, if it were invented and usable.
> >the lighting was dim, but that's all they may have had back then.
> >
> >for example right now i'd be using my holographic imaging system, to see
> >if an idea would work or not. it's such a common tool, not really
> >needed, but very useful. too bad it has'nt been invented yet, huh...
> >20-40 years from now people will be having a small argument about the
> >holographic units. and why the Lewis or Savad Studios did'nt use them.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> Mike,
> 
> Just because a machine is available doesn't make it better than another
> older technique, machine, etc.  One of the questions to be asked is
> whether the grinder is better or even quicker than the older method.
> You will have seen Albert's description of preparing glass for foiling -
> score, break, wipe the edges, foil.  This has to be quicker than score,
> break, grind, wash, dry, then foil.  It is better because the score and
> broken edge is much smoother than the ground edge, so it takes the foil
> adhesive better and makes a more secure bond.
> 
> So, I'd answer that the Tiffany workers (concerned as they must have
> been with piece rates for speed) would not choose to use the grinder
> extensively.
> 
> It could be interesting for people to put their grinders away for the
> next project and see how well they really can do without spending time
> at the grinder.
> 
> Steve
> --
> Steve Richard
> Verrier Art Glass Ltd
> s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
> ----
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allright here's another example: air conditioners. in the summer time we
all consider them a neccesity. but for thousands of years people did'nt
have them. they did'nt seem to have a need for them. they had there own
version a giant ice cube. i'm sure they would have rather wanted tosay's
AC. air conditioning, you really don't need it, but it's one of those
things you really can't do with out.

---Mike Savad

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Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:07:36 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:MD6868@aol.com" <MD6868@aol.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:50:57 -0500
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Amen, Richard.... but, who wants to practice in this day and
age... instant gratification rules. ;-(

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:09:14 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:54:40 EST
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<< << The BIG problem all begins because the beginner is allowed by this
  flawed technique of OVER GRINDING to produce a product that is
  deceptively good.  Once having made a nice looking product, the thought
  of the next not being as good or better is unbearable.  Sure they'd like
  to try cutting the glass better but the fear that it will come out too
  small and the solder lines will be fat or uneven is overwhelming.  Almost
  from the first project they're hooked!
  	I tell my students that there is no shame in making an imperfect piece. 
  "Send it off to your relatives in California. >>
 
 
 This is fascinating: Gary says using a grinder can make your work too 
 perfect,  Albert says using a grinder results in less craftsmanship.
 
 To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: a grinder is a grinder is a grinder 
 
 Tools (imho) tend to be independent from the person who uses them.  The
results
 tend to be a third independent quantity.
 
 As a neo-caveman artist, I can just spit on the wall,  or I can create
graceful
 horses and bison.  Correspondingly with the latest airbrush and acrylics, I 
 can just spray or create art.
 
 The art matters, the craft matters - the tools say nothing about the person
who
 uses them - except in cases of reproduction or restoration. >>
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:23:51 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:09:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.10953.0>
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Toby wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> A sudent arrived a couple of weeks ago to my class; she had already
> "done" s.g., she had attended a copper foil course (using grinders)
> with a colleague located further north from me, based at a respected
> Crafts College, and whom I have met on a number of occasions.
> Which was why I was horrified to see said student graunching about on
> a piece of practice glass as if she was digging for gold.
> I have now spent a total of 3 hours standing behind her watching her,
> correcting, goading, guiding and praising. This is an instant where
> hands on demo is worth a thousand words and EVEN a hundred pictures.
> You just do not hold a glass cutter as if it was a pencil.
> "But YOUR way is uncomfortable!", my students protest.
> Only at first,  I reassure them time and time again. You will get
> used to it and then it becomes second nature.....
> 
> There is ALWAYS a reason for a "bad" score;
> holding the glass cutter incorrectly
> too little pressure
> too much pressure
> uneven score line
> a sharp "kink" in the score line
> scoring over another score line
> tackling glass beyond your experience
> tackling curves not intended for glass
> you have damaged your cutter wheel
> 
> In 95 percent these are the reasons why the glass shatter or the
> score line takes off. Address these problems and you should succeed
> 95 times out of a 100. Talking about numbers..... I agree 100 percent
> with Dani!
> I have already submitted my application form   ;->
> Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
> 
> Also sprach unsere
> Dani Greer (who could use a couple of apprentices right now.... =
> 
> anybody out there who can cut glass and doesn't have a grinder?)
> www.igga.org/greer/   =
> 
> ----


holding a cutter that way can be uncomfortable. i hold mine like a
utility knife. if i were a teacher i would show the different kinds of
cutters and the different ways to hold them. each person will find it
best to hold it their way. my wrists are fairly strong. so my way works
out well.

---Mike Savad

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2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:25:53 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:00:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.10021.0>
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My Bride, who I married because she is mechanically inclined, [and other
reasons not to be discussed] set up huge range hoods over my soldering,
torch, and kiln areas.  Ain't perfect; but it sure does help....NO I DO NOT
RENT HER OUT....

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Grinder vs glass cutter


>
>>I know I'm new to this but when I took a class we were not told about
danger
>>in glass dust??
>
>When I grow up and get my "dream studio," I'm going to install a humongous
>ceiling-mounted vent hood over my work table, with a HEPA filter, and do
all
>my grinding *and* soldering under it. So there!
>
>
>Sparks, with fond memories of the high-airflow enclosed fume hoods
> in my college chemistry labs, but realizing that they'd be
> impractical in this line of work.........
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:28:58 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: tiime/cost of finished product
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:04:00 -0500
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Howard wrote:
> 
> I have over the years (see archives) ALWAYS advocated keeping time of how
> long a "project" takes. A simple analog clock and a on/off switch works
> fine.
> I know how many square feet I used to make a shade, solder, foil, filigree
> and or hardware, jewels and so on.
> Some of my shades may only use 2 or a fraction more sq. feet of glass and
> sell for ONLY $2,200 (without base)....That is only a $1,000 or so per
> square foot....A VERY POOR example of a like shade from elsewhere may sell
> for $199.00, and should that influence my pricing.......I think
> NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!
> No easy answer to pricing, some work only to stay busy, others  to replace
> material, some for FAMILY (UGH!), some guess at a price, some for the
> privilege to be exploited, and a few who do it as a profession. I do other
> things for free but NOT GLASS! ( with the exception of occasional and
> selected "net advice). I volunteer at 2 marine facilities (handle and feed
> and work with 6 or 7 octopuses) , assist friends with FREE investing advice,
> both "net" and broker type.
> The old saw "if you have to ask how much it costs. you cannot afford
> it".....hopefully reflects my clients.
> later, H
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


but the thing we have to remember is that we re paying for your skill
level. with a high skill level, the pieces should naturally be hihger.
she has prices on her work comarable to yours, but here skill level is
too low for that price range.

---Mike Savad

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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:40:13 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:49:40 -0500
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Brian Shepherd wrote:
> 
> Hello
> 
> Ok if we aren't going to slam peoples work or pricing then let's slam their
> techniques! BG
> 
> I don't think anybody would deny that there people in this world who are
> better at cutting glass that others - they must be they tell us so! Ok then
> that gives us all something to aspire to.
> 
> I admire all skilled people. No skills are easily won and they are priceless
> to those who have them and a wonder to observe. We all venerate
> craftsmanship!
> 
> We should all remember that a grinder is an enabling tool. It allows people
> to make things in stained glass without having to acquire the cutting skills
> first. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in this urgent age.
> 
> I began by grozing from the start. My cutting was appalling. Then I got a
> grinder so I groze then ground to shape. As my skills improved I gave up
> nearly!) grozing and ground only. Now I ALWAYS grind lightly (at least!)
> just so that I can handle and foil the piece with confidence.
> 
> I will not be admonished for using a work pattern that suits me!
> 
> So all you non grinders can go around patting your selves and your friends
> on the back and feeling holier than everybody else if it makes you happy -
> you deserve it.
> 
> All you grinders need feel no remorse. You are good guys as well! Your
> skills will come if you work at them but you have no reason to feel humbled
> in the presence of all this greatness!
> 
> Anyway - it's results that matter - who cares how you make it - if it's
> beautiful it's beautiful!
> 
> :o)
> 
> BtB
> 
> PS I don't think the LCT factory would have used a grinder - ever! I think
> they would have used one of these high pressure water cutter thingies if
> they had been available!
> 
> PPS On second thoughts maybe LCT would have used a completely automated
> assembly plant - if they had been available. The only thing he might have
> resisted would have been automatic colour selection (for a while at least!)
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


basically the way i see it is like this: say an old guy has been
building furniture by hand for 85 years. he's realy old. he only sands
and cuts things by hand. he never has used anything electric to make his
stuff. all of his things are nice, but they really arenn't vey smooth,
or accurate. he thinks he's doing it the reight and best way. and he
does'nt see any point in those new fangled gadgets. but those gadgets
could improve his work quite a bit. ...hmmm seemed to have lost track of
the story, but i can we can see the gist.

---Mike Savad

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2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:40:23 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:07:27 -0800
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TS writes:
>>Another thing I find is with a wavy score, the top side line is fine...
but it doesnt break straight up and down on the edge...so that the
bottom side of the glass comes out a little further than the top. A
small slope.  Sheesh this challenges my communications skills.

Is this caused by not holding my cutter staight up and down?  Hope you
guys can visualise what I am referring to.

There isnt much to grind off..just enough to make my glass straight up
and down.  Am I tilting???<<

My guess is that you are tilting your cutter from side to side. You do not
need to hold the cutter straight up and down but tilting the cutter wheel to
the glass causes flairing and bad breaks. I use a Toyo Supercutter which has
a pistol grip and find that it gives me excellent control. Sometimes use the
index finger on my other hand to help guide the wheel. If that is cheating
then I admit to it.

Someone wrote of a Toyo "crutch" cutter. The proper name is "Thomas Grip"
and some may find it to offer excellent control of the cutting wheel. I find
the Toyo Supercutter to be more comfortable for long cutting sessions. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 14:51:34 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:16:34 EST
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Paula,
I am very curious about your tiny cutter.  Is there some way you could find
out the name and/or manufacturer of it?  Is it really old?
Lenore
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:03:11 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: soraya@cros.net
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Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:21:11 EST
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<< I think it would be more helpful to newbies on the list if someone would be
 willing to few glass cutting techinques that have proved useful rather than
 telling us to just go do it >>
:
<< > you all raise an interesting dilemma. My problem is that I'd rather not
 > grind as much as I do, but am not very proficient at cutting. Anybody
 > have any tips for more accurate cutting? >>

Being part of this group, caused me to change my entire style of cutting.
I used to trace the pattern, cut it out, glue the pieces etc.  

I currently trace the glass pieces using a light box - sometimes even cutting
directly from the light box.  Then I try to cut right on the trace line or
even 
on the inside edge.  For me, this has resulted in much more accurate 
cutting and significantly reduce "grind time".

Another good tip is to watch other people cut glass.  I watched my sister
once (who I taught to cut glass).  I noticed she pushed the cutter instead
of pulling it.  I immediately started doing this and found I had much more
control.  

I still need to get down to San Diego to see Bob D. cut 1/4 inch strips from 
full sheets.  I've improved, but I'm a long way from doing that...
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:08:58 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Soraya <soraya@cros.net>
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:12:15 +0000
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Soraya,
  Tennis coaching came up with a simple idea based on learning research.
Coaches issued players with lots and lots of balls and had them practice
one objective.  With repetition, the brain learned how best to achieve
the objective, without much coaching.

You can do this too!

Steve

In message <1999Feb14.181326.0@?>, Soraya <soraya@cros.net> writes
>>Like geting into Carnagie Hall....You must practice, and practice and
>>practice.  You can do it.
>
>While you are correct that practice is going to improve your skills at
>almost anything and is very important....it can also aggrevate problems if
>you are practicing the wrong techiques....and how are newbies to know the
>differnace?
>
>I think it would be more helpful to newbies on the list if someone would be
>willing to few glass cutting techinques that have proved useful rather than
>telling us to just go do it....I'm sure we would if we knew how in the first
>place.   I myself will go down to my work bench, and even if I do not feel
>like working on a project at the moument, will play with some scrap glass
>just to see what I can do...but a few hints certainly wouldn't hurt my
>pride.
>
>Soraya
>
>
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:14:39 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
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Subject: Artistry, was Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:04:50 EST
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In a message dated 2/15/99 9:48:05 AM, alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net wrote:

>I woke 
>up in the middle of the night thinking my attitude here might not be 
>the best ... or a least misperceived.  I'm not sneering at those who 
>use grinders, not at all. I am trying to encourage everyone and 
>anyone to increase their skills, to always become better at 
>glassworking than they now are. My heart's in the right place; I woke 
>up worried because I thought I might have hurt some feelings. If I 
>did, my apologies.

Hey, da'ss okay. I don't think you hacked anyone off. I'm sure the tirade I
sent off a little while ago sounded "pissier" than it was intended, too.

I thought of something else in the mean time:

More to the point of true artistry than the "orthodoxy" of the methods of
construction is the creative vision that goes into a project. If your art has
something to say by virtue of its concept, and if you're able (by whatever
means) to translate that concept into concrete (or silicate <g>) reality, and
the communication of the concept is not hindered by outwardly visible evidence
of poor construction (as distinguished from *intentional* roughness), that's
what ultimately makes art.

Plenty of creative artists (for whatever reason) employ artisans to do the
physical construction. An architect isn't considered "not an architect"
because he or she doesn't lay the bricks, drive the nails, pour the concrete,
etc., and the house that results is no less worthy a house if the carpenters
use circular saws and nail guns rather than good old hand saws and hammers
(and in addition, the carpenters don't end up with carpal-tunnel syndrome the
way a friend of mine did).

The same goes for glass artists too. I read recently that the much-mentioned
(and occasionally maligned) Chihuly doesn't do his own glassblowing because
with one eye he has no depth perception, so it wouldn't be safe for him or the
other folks he works with. So he designs and supervises.

And what about his expressed intent to push his float series beyond the size
limit of a blown glass piece (something like 40", I seem to recall) by
experimenting with plastics? Does his change of materials suddenly,
automatically make his concept less worthy? If we throw out the popular
equation "plastic = tacky," I'd have to say the answer is no - let's see what
he comes up with and judge it based on the results!

By the same token, when we look at a painting, for instance, most of us don't
automatically call up the artist to find out if he/she actually mixed the
paint from scratch. If the painting "speaks to us" and looks as if "the artist
knew which end of the brush to hold," we appreciate it. We might even buy it
if we can afford it and have a place to hang it.

The least we can do is to give the same consideration to each other as well.
Historic and other "orthodox" methods have their place, but unless you're
restoring or reproducing a cathedral window or some other such historic
masterpiece, the exact method of construction, what tools were used, etc. is
at most 10% of the equation, IMO. The other 90% is creativity, choice of
materials (making windows for a great big "manor house"? lead and handblown it
is!), communication of the concept, whether it looks like you intended it to,
and practical concerns like appropriateness of the finished product to its
intended location and whether it's constructed well enough to last and doesn't
look like whoever made it barely knew which end of the cutter was up.

Having said my 2 brass farthings' worth, I will now upshut, for the next 5
minutes anyway <gd&r>


Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:28:06 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:33:18 -0500
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-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Dani Greer, =

To:     INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com, INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
        =

Date:   2/15/99  2:20 PM

RE:     Re: Advice on first tools

Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
>So unless and until I develop a "magic touch" like Dani & co.<

Magic ain't got nothin' to do with it.... just practice.  It takes a
lot less time to skip the grinding stage especially on large
many-piece windows... aLOT less time.  Unfortunately, it's
a fact of life that if you plan to make stained glass your
career, you have to make money at it.... and saving time makes
money.  The point is, I don't care if you grind or not.  Grind to
your hearts' content.  The information I pass on is simply one
professional's perspective.... if you wanna be like us, here's
how we do it.  It you don't, ignore what I have to say.  You're =

getting the same info I give to a college class.  We assume
they're taking a college class because they want to be =

professionals.... so, they're trained to be just that, and one of
the things you have to learn is speed - and cutting glass fast
and well is an essential to being a professional. Cutting glass =

fast and well usually precludes a lot of grinding.  Just a fact of
glass life.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:31:49 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
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> little teeny bit (OK, more like a lot) on the arrogant and overcontrolling
> side for anyone in any line of work to insist that everyone - even their own
> employees - do every itty bitty detail "my way or the highway." Getting the
> work done well and in a timely manner - and *safely* as well - is what's
> important.

I'll admit that my comment had to do with studio craftspeople, that 
is, employees of firms in business to make money. I'm not sure it's 
arrogant on the part of a professional studio owner to expect his/her 
employees to be both productive and efficient. Safe? Sure. Efficient? 
You bet! And if professional craftspeople used a grinder on every 
piece they cut, believe me, the "highway" is what it'd be.

Of course, some hobbyists wish to attain professional skill levels 
... my comments were pointed at them too and (I've already apologized 
for this) my comments might have seemed harsh and unforgiving on the 
grinder question and I didn't mean them to be. They were meant to be 
encouraging.

Oh, I suspected the walker wasn't a good analogy. I was picturing the 
thingamabob that oldsters who just can't walk without them use, 
pitching it ahead of them one step, then taking a step, then pitching 
it ahead of them again, and so on. After I sent the comment off, I 
visualized the *other kind of walker, the one that *encourages 
walking. <grin> Oh, well, the hazards of an imperfect language, not 
to mention my own imperfect skill set in using it.


Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:39:53 1999
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On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> 
> Also sprach Albert:
> 
> >The best one I ever saw was a large carton with forklift entry holes 
> >inserted midway in the box, penetration most of the way through, too. 
> >It didn't go out that way, but it certainly came back in modified 
> >form.
> 
> Hmmmmmmm......... sounds like the work of some frustrated "performance artist"
> to me.......
> 
> For anyone who missed it, once again I'll quote the guy at my local "Mail
> Boxes Etc." who said, "everything you ship goes down at least a mile of
> conveyor belt and gets flipped every which way before it gets where it's
> going."
> 

That flipped is not to be confused with the tumbling that happens when you
parcel is flipped down a two story high chute to the container heading
(hopefully) its way. The flipping, by the way, is done by gadgets that
resemble their smaller cousins in pinball machines!


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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:48:49 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 16:43:00 -0500
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Sparks:  Well said!

Ciao

Vic
-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 15, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter


>
>Also sprach Albert:
>
>>>You see, that's the thing. Glass teachers these days who have their
>>>students learn to cut glass with a grinder close at hand are actually
>>>crippling their students in a way. It's like teaching a child to walk
>>>by insisting they use a walker like an 80-year-old. They'd never
>>>learn to walk correctly. Personally, I'd say that nobody learning to
>>>work with stained glass should be allowed to use a grinder until
>>>they'd learned to cut confidently and accurately most of the time.
>>>
>>>Using a grinder doesn't make you a bad person; you're just not
>>>allowing yourself to reach the level of technical ability that would
>>>mark you as a good craftsman.
>>>
>>>My opinion, natch.
>
>I disagree completely........
>
>First off, I compare my experience in learning glass craft with my
experience
>when I learned to sew, for instance. When I started to learn to sew on the
>machine (at age 8), I had to do a lot of pinning, basting, extra measuring,
>etc. so my work would go together smoothly. As I got better at it, the
basting
>was the first to go (except in really tricky spots), then most of the pins,
>and I learned to "eyeball" the width of an elastic casing or a 2" hem. Now
I
>can sew in a zipper by machine with no pinning at all, "eyeball"
alterations,
>cobble together my own patterns, etc.
>
>No one would ever have suggested that I run the sewing machine at top speed
>right off the bat, or put together my first sewing projects without pinning
>before running the piece through the machine. And yes, I *can* hand sew
>(learned that first, along with embroidery, starting around age 5), and
>usually do my mending that way 'cause I feel too lazy to set up the machine
>for something small. But ordinarily I don't do that when making something
new,
>and (except for the real die-hard "period garb" makers who even spin, weave
>and dye their own cloth), no one expects new clothes to be made that way!
>
>Second, I think the way any individual person works depends at least in
part
>on what "level" one jumps in at (incidentally, my first machine-sewing
>projects were Barbie doll clothes, which require 1/4" seams and very
precise
>fitting) *and* on one's level of physical coordination. I've never done
>stained glass as a hobby or taken any formal lessons; I got "thrown in the
>deep end" when Christie needed some extra help. I've had to rely on my own
>mechanical aptitude and learn on the fly what's the most efficient way for
>*me* to work, and sometimes it's not the way she works. I have a rather
shaky
>hand, so my work style compensates for that; for instance, I have to use a
lot
>more push pins than she does when I'm assembling something - but as a
result I
>don't waste time repositioning pieces I've knocked out of kilter! There
have
>even been a couple of times when she's picked up on a trick or two of mine.
>
>There's also the way one's brain is wired conceptually - questions of "Do
you
>put the shirt on the hanger, or the hanger in the shirt?" and "Do you put
the
>thread through the eye of the needle, or slip the eye of the needle over
the
>end of the thread?" In both instances it's the latter for me. I also do a
lot
>of things naturally from right to left even though I'm mostly right-handed
in
>a left-to-right society (incidentally, I'm also mostly left-footed).
Realizing
>that I'm wired "conceptually backwards" and allowing myself to work
according
>to the way I'm wired has been an overwhelmingly empowering thing; by
following
>my own wiring, I'm able to do things I was never able to learn "the regular
>way" no matter how hard I tried - and do them well.
>
>There's also the question of any person's own natural pace and rhythm. I'm
a
>naturally "fast" worker, and my rhythms are way different from those of a
>naturally "slow" worker. What works for me is simply different from what
works
>for a slow worker - a notable example being that I didn't learn to solder
>smoothly until I cranked the iron way up and let my natural pace take over
>instead of trying to do it slowly with a cooler iron, which resulted in a
lot
>of unevenness.
>
>I find that for me personally, that "natural pace" has a mental component
too;
>if I try to slow down what I'm doing physically, I often lose track and get
>confused because the flow is interrupted. (I've always been that way, maybe
>it's an "ADD thang.")
>
>It's also important to draw a distinction between learning glass (or any
art
>or craft) as a hobby (which is where almost everyone starts out) and
entering
>an apprenticeship in a high-end pro shop. The point of doing glass as a
hobby
>is as much to provide relaxation and "a place to escape to" as to produce
>beautiful things. Nobody's judging your performance, counting up the sheets
of
>glass you destroy, or breathing down your neck to make you "work faster"
like
>they do all day in the "real world." There's a lot of ground, some of it
>occupied by people who do beautiful work and get paid for it (which, all
>hairsplitting aside, is the fundamental definition of "professional")
between
>the two extremes; it's not an either/or situation. And if this or that tool
>enables someone to avoid frustration and do neater work while developing
their
>skills and getting ready for the next level, who are we - any of us, even
>those who have been at it for 30 years - to criticize?
>
>Finally (and I speak from experience as a supervisor too, this having been
a
>really stinkin' hard lesson for me to learn on that side), I think it's
just a
>little teeny bit (OK, more like a lot) on the arrogant and overcontrolling
>side for anyone in any line of work to insist that everyone - even their
own
>employees - do every itty bitty detail "my way or the highway." Getting the
>work done well and in a timely manner - and *safely* as well - is what's
>important.
>
>The upshot of it is, everyone doesn't - indeed *can't* - work the same way.
>We've all got to do what's most efficient for us. And I think the "crutch"
>argument is *way* over-used. One person's crutch is another person's
valuable
>tool. Everyone doesn't stay in "training wheels" mode forever; I dare say
most
>of us are more than eager to get away from the training wheels!
>
>And BTW, Albert: in 40-something years I've never known a healthy,
able-bodied
>baby who used a walker and never learned to walk without it - or one who
>learned to stand without pulling him- or herself up on the furniture or
mom's
>or dad's leg or the drapes or the dog or whatever else was handy.
Eventually
>all babies are off and running unless some abusive ghoul kicked their feet
out
>from under them once too many. And whether we're learning to walk or to do
>glass, as we grow and develop, we all arrive at our own conclusions about
>what's necessary and what's not.............
>
>We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 15:53:39 1999
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Hhhhhmmmm....
So THAT was what the UK Customs & Excise people confiscated and 
Returned to Sender, since they found the "obnoxious substance" highly 
suspect....... I hope your neighbours will demand retribution for 
the stench!!!

I just don't know what the world is coming to; NO BIOS!!!!!, 
bedraggled gnomen and  badly maintained tu-tu!!!!.....?

Not only that, but then Patrick  fails to know the difference between 
a true-blooded English EliZabeth in Bournemouth, a fair town located 
on the South Coast of the British Islses,  from a Viking EliSabeth 
(....and what about Toby, huh?!) in a tiny village, located much more 
inland and up north. This is NOT that such a large country where one 
loses track of distances and locations! Toby is not impressed!!!
There are about 700 - 800 Bunginians world-wide and only about 
170-odd Bios. SHAME on you Patrick!!! You do not deserve to be called 
Irish!! I will have TWO Philly Cheesesteaks and a THIRD one in a 
doggie-bag for approval back here!!

May I also draw everybody's attention to the fact that on the 19th 
February BUNGI will celebrate its FOURTH Birthday!!!!!!
I had a little dip into the archives tonight and came across Glenna's 
FIRST e-mail, welcoming everybody onboard. It was rather sweet. The 
conversation in them ole' days was very tentative, very.....hmmmm... 
shall we say...... "tame".... (ouch 'n duck!)
We are much "ruder" to each other these days, but much more 
affectionate too!

The reason WHY I dipped into the archives was that I was itching to 
have a look at Glenna's restoration work..... she and I have had a 
few "off-group" exchanges about it, except that I was not fast enough 
in my replies (Old bones Glenna... and recovering from illness as 
well....).r Glenna, you have nothing to be 
ashamed of and I think you have done splendidly. I 
perticularly appreciated the fact that you photographed  "The 
Before".           Well Done!!
Even more so, since you allowed us a close-up view of your 
construction, so I was able to examine your soldering work at quite a 
close quarter.  That was very daring and courageous of you.  It looks 
very good! I hope your neighbourrs will really appreciate the 
thought, time, imagination, efforts and the efoorts for perfection 
you have poured into this project. It looks great!

Another wonderful piece of news is also about to happen; I'm sure 
my"Barefoot Companion" will not mind me mentioning this. It again 
emphasizes the bonds we all find with one another on so many 
different levels......
Daniel German in Canada (our Mexican stained glass artist and 
Photographer Extraordinaire) is coming to Europe next week. He is 
also visiting friends and family in London and has asked me if we 
could meet up.This has arisen in his course of study and research.
I am absolutely delighted and will certainly make sure he spends at 
LEAST a day here (with me and Toby and a camera!!!). 
Isn't BUNGI wonderful!!!
Thank you Glenna and Dave AND

                  HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO US!!!

Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK   ('n shame on you Patrick!!!!)


That horrible excuse for an Irishman wrote:
I thought the drugged anchovies would have worked by now. Damn, have to
rethink my position ( and dosage to send to Bournesmith).

Welcome back my dear, I didn't think any bug would be brave enough to even
attempt an infection on such a gracious (note the compliment) poultry queen
of the barnyard. (8-)

Maybe her appetite for Philly Cheesesteaks will wane and I can save some
money. LOL

Get healthy my nemesis, we need your input.

Love to Toby (don't feed him the anchovies I sent you).



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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 16:36:02 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: RE: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:31:17 -0500
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Why groze when you can grind lightly?  Because the grozing/
breaking pliers are already in your hand.  Why put them down,
go to the grinder, turn it on, grind, turn it off?.... well, you get
my point.  Say, that whole procedure took 30 seconds extra...
multiply that times 650 pieces of glass in your window... that's
325 minutes or 5.42 hours... so at $50 - $100 an hour (or =

however much you charge) you'll need to charge $271 - $542
extra to cover the cost of your grinding.  Oh, and then you'll also
need to add the cost of electricity for the grinder. And that's just
one job... of course, you don't have to be concerned about it if
you don't make a living from stained glass.  But, if it's the *only
place your money comes from... well, it becomes an issue.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 16:58:41 1999
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From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
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Subject: Glass Holder
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:40:09 -0800 (PST)
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Look at Lowes, Home Depot, etc., for "tool box liner".
It looks exactly like the shelf liner at WallyWorld,
but is much cheaper!




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 17:00:34 1999
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Subject: Re: UPS - or should that have been OOPS!
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 17:42:02 -0500
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2/15/99 1:24 PM Witchdoc3@aol.com Witchdoc3@aol.com

>Sparks (former Paranoid Professionsl Post-Office Proofer)

Good heavens, Sparks, what *haven't you been in a former life?

Reminds me, we haven't seen a bio from you!
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 17:15:29 1999
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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:09:09 -0800
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990215150909.00914770@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
Precedence: bulk

One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is to tin
the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat solder
(50/50), then bead (60/40).  Is the edge tinning step really worth it?  It
takes a lot of extra time...not to mention the occasional burns when
working with small pieces and flux on the finger tips.

Before my world view was upset by that book's advice, I was happy as a clam
beading my 60/40 over a 50/50 flat soldered base and not thinking much
about the hidden edges.  Now I'm wondering if a work that hasn't been edge
tinned is weaker structurally than one that has.  I suspect the solder
heart is much more uniform on an edge-tinned piece.  With flat soldering
alone, we depend on a heart forming from solder that maybe flows and maybe
doesn't past inner edges that were fluxed only by drip-through coincidence.

For that matter, is the solder heart really all that important to the
strength of a foiled work?  Obviously, the better the fit between pieces,
the *narrower* the heart.  That tempts me to conclude that the heart
mustn't matter much at all, but then I think about steel I-beams.  They
clearly resist bending more than would two randomly connected parallel
steel strips the same width and thickness.  

I think I'm convincing myself that the foil itself provides the essential
heart and that extra solder in between the pieces is nice but not really
necessary.  If that's true, a panel assembled with 1.5 mil foil of a given
width would be stronger than the same panel using thinner foil of the same
width.  Seems reasonable.  Can anyone speak with authority...or pretend to
do so ;-)?  

Confusedly yours,

Steve
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 17:46:24 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:52:55 -0500
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Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> -------------Forwarded Message-----------------
> 
> From:   Dani Greer, =
> 
> To:     INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com, INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
>         =
> 
> Date:   2/15/99  2:20 PM
> 
> RE:     Re: Advice on first tools
> 
> Message text written by INTERNET:Witchdoc3@aol.com
> >So unless and until I develop a "magic touch" like Dani & co.<
> 
> Magic ain't got nothin' to do with it.... just practice.  It takes a
> lot less time to skip the grinding stage especially on large
> many-piece windows... aLOT less time.  Unfortunately, it's
> a fact of life that if you plan to make stained glass your
> career, you have to make money at it.... and saving time makes
> money.  The point is, I don't care if you grind or not.  Grind to
> your hearts' content.  The information I pass on is simply one
> professional's perspective.... if you wanna be like us, here's
> how we do it.  It you don't, ignore what I have to say.  You're =
> 
> getting the same info I give to a college class.  We assume
> they're taking a college class because they want to be =
> 
> professionals.... so, they're trained to be just that, and one of
> the things you have to learn is speed - and cutting glass fast
> and well is an essential to being a professional. Cutting glass =
> 
> fast and well usually precludes a lot of grinding.  Just a fact of
> glass life.  =
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> www.igga.org/greer/   =
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


not neccerily. look at my work. i use the grinder quite a bit. i don't
trim off a ton, just a hair here and there. and of course the razor
sharp edges. it also depends on hand eye coordination on how fast you
can grind. how long it takes you to foil with your hnds all cut up and
bleeding. where the grinder is located, sink, foiling area, etc. i take
a little while because my grinder is no where near me.

a proffessional can use a grinder, or does'nt. a proffesional house
painter can use a brush or a sprayer. a lawn guy can use a hand held
mower or a riding. a bush cutting guy can use a hand held bush trimmer,
or an eletric. all the things work, some faster then other's. the lawn
guy riding the mower may be an awful driver, and is cutting in all
directions but straight. or maybe not. 

mainly a proffesional should'nt be judged on what tools he/she uses or
not. will you or other's suddenly turn your noses up because i, gasp...
use the grinder? if the work is done quickly and accurately, it really
should'nt matter what you use. a carborundum stone may take even longer
then a grinder, and not be as accurate...

---Mike Savad

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Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 18:17:00 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 18:56:18 -0500
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Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > little teeny bit (OK, more like a lot) on the arrogant and overcontrolling
> > side for anyone in any line of work to insist that everyone - even their own
> > employees - do every itty bitty detail "my way or the highway." Getting the
> > work done well and in a timely manner - and *safely* as well - is what's
> > important.
> 
> I'll admit that my comment had to do with studio craftspeople, that
> is, employees of firms in business to make money. I'm not sure it's
> arrogant on the part of a professional studio owner to expect his/her
> employees to be both productive and efficient. Safe? Sure. Efficient?
> You bet! And if professional craftspeople used a grinder on every
> piece they cut, believe me, the "highway" is what it'd be.
> 
> Of course, some hobbyists wish to attain professional skill levels
> ... my comments were pointed at them too and (I've already apologized
> for this) my comments might have seemed harsh and unforgiving on the
> grinder question and I didn't mean them to be. They were meant to be
> encouraging.
> 
> Oh, I suspected the walker wasn't a good analogy. I was picturing the
> thingamabob that oldsters who just can't walk without them use,
> pitching it ahead of them one step, then taking a step, then pitching
> it ahead of them again, and so on. After I sent the comment off, I
> visualized the *other kind of walker, the one that *encourages
> walking. <grin> Oh, well, the hazards of an imperfect language, not
> to mention my own imperfect skill set in using it.
> 
> Albert
> ----
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though some time is wasted. materials may be saved. ripped foil due to
sharp glass. and if pieces don't fit exactly, solder would be wasted
somewhat. maybe the tiffany people did'nt have to handle it as much.
chances are they did'nt need to rub the glass alot, because i don't
think it would stick any better then it already was.

---Mike Savad

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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 18:27:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:50:26 EST
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ooooooohhhhhhh  NICE going, sparks.  Eloquently stated and very precise. My
sentiments exactly and forget about returning me back to the regularly
scheduled program.......:-)
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 19:04:00 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:33:50 +0000
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> as a first tool, the grinder can make the time when accurate cutting is
> achieved much longer to achieve.  The objective is to get good skill
> levels which will stay with them through their career.

Thank you, Steve. That's what I was trying to say, but didn't. A 
grinder is the player piano of learning to cut glass. You don't have 
to do scales.

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 19:17:59 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Artistry, was Re: cutting vs. grinding
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> The same goes for glass artists too. I read recently that the much-mentioned
> (and occasionally maligned) Chihuly doesn't do his own glassblowing because
> with one eye he has no depth perception, so it wouldn't be safe for him or the
> other folks he works with. So he designs and supervises.

Actually, he's practicing what's normal anywhere outside North 
America. In Europe, for instance, the artist/designer would never 
actually execute the work. It's a very "new world" approach to do 
that.

So in a way, he's re-created the Murano glass shop whatever his 
excuse or explanation might be.

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 19:29:31 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:33:50 +0000
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> allright here's another example: air conditioners. in the summer time we
> all consider them a neccesity.

Not I. Don't own one. Grew up in Southern California in 120-degree 
summers. No AC. Just what they called "desert coolers": water dripped 
down through excelsior, fan driving dampened air into house. Here in 
Massachusetts 40 years later: no AC. Don't want it. Dries out 
sinuses. Hate that.

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 19:33:41 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 19:32:03 -0600
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Well...I dont know about anyone else, but after having read all of this
thread, *I* was feeling totally and completely depressed.

 All the while thanking God that my family and I are not dependant on my
getting a *job* in a high production glass studio.  Keeping in mind,
that Social Work isnt highly valued in our society and doesnt pay
well...but at least I know I can get a job. That is depressing enough in 
itself~! ;o)  'bout that time I was ready for a good cry, been awhile
anyway.  No blood, or sweat today...but come on tears!

Luckily for me, I *finally* fell in love with this latest *thing* I am
making, that I didnt really want to, but my sister (yes family) paid me
in advance to make for her to give as a gift.  I didnt like her color
choices etc...well, the glass is finished and it looks soooooo cool! ;o)

The 'ole glass world isnt losing me today! ;o) 

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 19:37:28 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
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Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 20:27:49 -0500
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Steve Wernecke wrote:
> 
> One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is to tin
> the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat solder
> (50/50), then bead (60/40).  Is the edge tinning step really worth it?  It
> takes a lot of extra time...not to mention the occasional burns when
> working with small pieces and flux on the finger tips.
> 
> Before my world view was upset by that book's advice, I was happy as a clam
> beading my 60/40 over a 50/50 flat soldered base and not thinking much
> about the hidden edges.  Now I'm wondering if a work that hasn't been edge
> tinned is weaker structurally than one that has.  I suspect the solder
> heart is much more uniform on an edge-tinned piece.  With flat soldering
> alone, we depend on a heart forming from solder that maybe flows and maybe
> doesn't past inner edges that were fluxed only by drip-through coincidence.
> 
> For that matter, is the solder heart really all that important to the
> strength of a foiled work?  Obviously, the better the fit between pieces,
> the *narrower* the heart.  That tempts me to conclude that the heart
> mustn't matter much at all, but then I think about steel I-beams.  They
> clearly resist bending more than would two randomly connected parallel
> steel strips the same width and thickness.
> 
> I think I'm convincing myself that the foil itself provides the essential
> heart and that extra solder in between the pieces is nice but not really
> necessary.  If that's true, a panel assembled with 1.5 mil foil of a given
> width would be stronger than the same panel using thinner foil of the same
> width.  Seems reasonable.  Can anyone speak with authority...or pretend to
> do so ;-)?
> 
> Confusedly yours,
> 
> Steve
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it's a waste of time to tin everything first. put it together, solder
and your done. it's more likely that the project won't fit as well due
to the extra solder on the foil. and the foil grip may unglue do to
extra uneeded heat.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 20:04:45 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 22:16:52 -0500
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Suzanne,

Sounds to me like the problem is in the breaking technique rather than in
the score.  When you bend glass to break it you create a pressure focus
on the underside of the glass.  If you use the Morton system with the
little button, the focus is an actual point, right where the button is. 
If you use your hands to break the glass there is not an actual focus
point where something pushes up on the glass behind the score but rather
you create an "implied focus" where the forces from your two hands meet. 
If this implied focus is not landing directly behind the score your glass
will flare toward the location of the implied focus.

In the case of a score line that curves back and forth you must address
each curve in the line with a bending action tailored just for that part
of the curve.  If you just grab it at one and and muscle the break
straight across the glass the focus will be in one place only and
everything to the right of it will have flares pointing to the left and
everything to the left of the focus will have flares pointing to the
right

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:17:34 -0600 Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Ok..
>
>Not wanting to go see Elisabeth with *all* my glass having met my
>grinder....(I told ya I was scared)
>
>I have been inspecting each of my breaks to critique each and every
>score.  This is what I have found...
>
>My score looks good (to me) right amount of pressure and appears 
>even.
>
>When I have a very thin amount of glass to break off...if it doesnt 
>all
>come off together, I find little mountains on the glasses broken edge
>(make sense?) but the line is fine on the top and bottom of the glass. 
>
>The mini mountain is what I would grind off.  Cant groze it off 
>without
>getting into my peice of glass.
>
>Another thing I find is with a wavy score, the top side line is 
>fine...
>but it doesnt break straight up and down on the edge...so that the
>bottom side of the glass comes out a little further than the top. A
>small slope.  Sheesh this challenges my communications skills.
>
>Is this caused by not holding my cutter staight up and down?  Hope 
>you
>guys can visualise what I am referring to.
>
>There isnt much to grind off..just enough to make my glass straight 
>up
>and down.  Am I tilting???
>
>I hold my cutter like an ice pick! ;o)  This assumes that y'all know 
>how
>to hold an ice pick to judge how I hold my cutter!
>
>Thanks 
>
>Tulsa Suzanne
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 20:28:26 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:58:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.165851.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sparks,

Glass is different in that you can't UNscore or UNcut it.  You can't just
rip a couple of stiches if your maching goes off course.  As such there
is a huge psychological obstacle that creates a fear that just won't
allow someone to cut as small as they must initially once they have
experienced the grind large and cut to fit technique.  

I really want my students to cut something fairly crude at first.  Ihave
them foil it with 7/32 foil and they invariably are STUNNED at how well
it turns out!  This is empowering.  They need not live in mortal fear of
a tiny gap.  They get to see on the first project how little difference
it really makes.  If they started out grinding each piece to perfection
they will be convinced that they must do that each time to get an
acceptable product, which is just not the case.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com
>
>I disagree completely........
>
>First off, I compare my experience in learning glass craft with my 
>experience
>when I learned to sew, for instance. When I started to learn to sew on 
>the
>machine (at age 8), I had to do a lot of pinning, basting, extra 
>measuring,
>etc. so my work would go together smoothly. As I got better at it, the 
>basting
>was the first to go (except in really tricky spots), then most of the 
>pins,
>and I learned to "eyeball" the width of an elastic casing or a 2" hem. 
>Now I
>can sew in a zipper by machine with no pinning at all, "eyeball" 
>alterations,
>cobble together my own patterns, etc.
>
>No one would ever have suggested that I run the sewing machine at top 
>speed
>right off the bat, or put together my first sewing projects without 
>pinning
>before running the piece through the machine. And yes, I *can* hand 
>sew
>(learned that first, along with embroidery, starting around age 5), 
>and
>usually do my mending that way 'cause I feel too lazy to set up the 
>machine
>for something small. But ordinarily I don't do that when making 
>something new,
>and (except for the real die-hard "period garb" makers who even spin, 
>weave
>and dye their own cloth), no one expects new clothes to be made that 
>way!
>
>Second, I think the way any individual person works depends at least 
>in part
>on what "level" one jumps in at (incidentally, my first 
>machine-sewing
>projects were Barbie doll clothes, which require 1/4" seams and very 
>precise
>fitting) *and* on one's level of physical coordination. I've never 
>done
>stained glass as a hobby or taken any formal lessons; I got "thrown in 
>the
>deep end" when Christie needed some extra help. I've had to rely on my 
>own
>mechanical aptitude and learn on the fly what's the most efficient way 
>for
>*me* to work, and sometimes it's not the way she works. I have a 
>rather shaky
>hand, so my work style compensates for that; for instance, I have to 
>use a lot
>more push pins than she does when I'm assembling something - but as a 
>result I
>don't waste time repositioning pieces I've knocked out of kilter! 
>There have
>even been a couple of times when she's picked up on a trick or two of 
>mine.
>
>There's also the way one's brain is wired conceptually - questions of 
>"Do you
>put the shirt on the hanger, or the hanger in the shirt?" and "Do you 
>put the
>thread through the eye of the needle, or slip the eye of the needle 
>over the
>end of the thread?" In both instances it's the latter for me. I also 
>do a lot
>of things naturally from right to left even though I'm mostly 
>right-handed in
>a left-to-right society (incidentally, I'm also mostly left-footed). 
>Realizing
>that I'm wired "conceptually backwards" and allowing myself to work 
>according
>to the way I'm wired has been an overwhelmingly empowering thing; by 
>following
>my own wiring, I'm able to do things I was never able to learn "the 
>regular
>way" no matter how hard I tried - and do them well.
>
>There's also the question of any person's own natural pace and rhythm. 
>I'm a
>naturally "fast" worker, and my rhythms are way different from those 
>of a
>naturally "slow" worker. What works for me is simply different from 
>what works
>for a slow worker - a notable example being that I didn't learn to 
>solder
>smoothly until I cranked the iron way up and let my natural pace take 
>over
>instead of trying to do it slowly with a cooler iron, which resulted 
>in a lot
>of unevenness.
>
>I find that for me personally, that "natural pace" has a mental 
>component too;
>if I try to slow down what I'm doing physically, I often lose track 
>and get
>confused because the flow is interrupted. (I've always been that way, 
>maybe
>it's an "ADD thang.")
>
>It's also important to draw a distinction between learning glass (or 
>any art
>or craft) as a hobby (which is where almost everyone starts out) and 
>entering
>an apprenticeship in a high-end pro shop. The point of doing glass as 
>a hobby
>is as much to provide relaxation and "a place to escape to" as to 
>produce
>beautiful things. Nobody's judging your performance, counting up the 
>sheets of
>glass you destroy, or breathing down your neck to make you "work 
>faster" like
>they do all day in the "real world." There's a lot of ground, some of 
>it
>occupied by people who do beautiful work and get paid for it (which, 
>all
>hairsplitting aside, is the fundamental definition of "professional") 
>between
>the two extremes; it's not an either/or situation. And if this or that 
>tool
>enables someone to avoid frustration and do neater work while 
>developing their
>skills and getting ready for the next level, who are we - any of us, 
>even
>those who have been at it for 30 years - to criticize?
>
>Finally (and I speak from experience as a supervisor too, this having 
>been a
>really stinkin' hard lesson for me to learn on that side), I think 
>it's just a
>little teeny bit (OK, more like a lot) on the arrogant and 
>overcontrolling
>side for anyone in any line of work to insist that everyone - even 
>their own
>employees - do every itty bitty detail "my way or the highway." 
>Getting the
>work done well and in a timely manner - and *safely* as well - is 
>what's
>important.
>
>The upshot of it is, everyone doesn't - indeed *can't* - work the same 
>way.
>We've all got to do what's most efficient for us. And I think the 
>"crutch"
>argument is *way* over-used. One person's crutch is another person's 
>valuable
>tool. Everyone doesn't stay in "training wheels" mode forever; I dare 
>say most
>of us are more than eager to get away from the training wheels!
>
>And BTW, Albert: in 40-something years I've never known a healthy, 
>able-bodied
>baby who used a walker and never learned to walk without it - or one 
>who
>learned to stand without pulling him- or herself up on the furniture 
>or mom's
>or dad's leg or the drapes or the dog or whatever else was handy. 
>Eventually
>all babies are off and running unless some abusive ghoul kicked their 
>feet out
>from under them once too many. And whether we're learning to walk or 
>to do
>glass, as we grow and develop, we all arrive at our own conclusions 
>about
>what's necessary and what's not.............
>
>We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in 
>progress.
>
>
>Sparks
>----

>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 20:36:47 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: lcbell@memach.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:50:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.165021.0>
Precedence: bulk

Linda,

You've just broken the glass and in your other hand you're holding the
scrap.  In one second before you toss it in the can you can just swipe it
across the other piece and save running to the grinder and getting the
whole thing all wet, then having to rinse and dry it.  All that time away
from the water will  work wonders for you skin too.  
(Assuming you learn how to foil without getting cut on the unground
glass.)

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:48:04 -0500 Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
writes:
>
>Serious Question?
>
>Even on a good score and break, the top or bottom edge may have a 
>sharp sliver edge. 
>Why groze when you can grind lightly?
>
>Linda
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 21:06:24 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: steve@villagesoftsmith.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 21:45:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.164555.0>
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Steve,

I have never known a professional who pretinned or even planned on
passing the iron over every piece twice.  Where I worked my first job we
used 5050 canfield solder on 25 pound spools and in 1/4" bars and
soldered in one pass with a 250 to 300 watt Hexacon iron.

If you don't allow sufficient solder to penetrate between your pieces and
create the "heart" (as in cames)  your work will be very weak and larger
works may collapse over time.  Furthermore very tight fitting glass is a
formula for heat and stress cracks during soldering and turning panels
over during work.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 15:09:09 -0800 Steve Wernecke
<steve@villagesoftsmith.com> writes:
>One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is 
>to tin
>the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat 
>solder
>(50/50), then bead (60/40).  Is the edge tinning step really worth it? 
> It
>takes a lot of extra time...not to mention the occasional burns when
>working with small pieces and flux on the finger tips.
>
>Before my world view was upset by that book's advice, I was happy as a 
>clam
>beading my 60/40 over a 50/50 flat soldered base and not thinking 
>much
>about the hidden edges.  Now I'm wondering if a work that hasn't been 
>edge
>tinned is weaker structurally than one that has.  I suspect the 
>solder
>heart is much more uniform on an edge-tinned piece.  With flat 
>soldering
>alone, we depend on a heart forming from solder that maybe flows and 
>maybe
>doesn't past inner edges that were fluxed only by drip-through 
>coincidence.
>
>For that matter, is the solder heart really all that important to the
>strength of a foiled work?  Obviously, the better the fit between 
>pieces,
>the *narrower* the heart.  That tempts me to conclude that the heart
>mustn't matter much at all, but then I think about steel I-beams.  
>They
>clearly resist bending more than would two randomly connected 
>parallel
>steel strips the same width and thickness.  
>
>I think I'm convincing myself that the foil itself provides the 
>essential
>heart and that extra solder in between the pieces is nice but not 
>really
>necessary.  If that's true, a panel assembled with 1.5 mil foil of a 
>given
>width would be stronger than the same panel using thinner foil of the 
>same
>width.  Seems reasonable.  Can anyone speak with authority...or 
>pretend to
>do so ;-)?  
>
>Confusedly yours,
>
>Steve
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 22:09:06 1999
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From: "Karen F." <classi@sssnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: cutting and grinding
Date: Mon, 15 Feb 1999 23:58:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.185834.0>
Precedence: bulk

The professionals' debate on this subject hit an emotional nerve here too,
Suzanne. Every word that I have read from these fine artists points out my
shortcomings as a new person just trying to turn out a decent and
respectable piece of work. It couldn't have come at a better time for me. I
have gone down to the basement and looked at the needless break lines that I
put in the pattern and realized that I should re-cut areas of the design
with one large piece instead of two pieces to give it simplicity for a more
pleasing design.

I found that the reason so many pieces had gaps between them was because I
was using the grinder to compensate for careless cutting. Of course the
grinder pressure I used was too much in some areas, thus the gaps. My cuts
were "blocky" and not graceful and flowing. I used the grinder to round out
the "corners" that I created instead of the flowing lines that I should have
cut.

Even though the grinder was part of the start-up kit when I took a few
lessons, the instructor did not tell me to use the grinder religiously. That
bad habit I fell into when I started working at home because I assumed it
made it easier for me to get the puzzle pieces to "sort of fit". In the long
run, that has proven to be a false assumption.

Someone on one of the lists said that if stained glass were easy, everyone
would be doing it. I just came to the realization that it isn't easy, but I
am determined to do it! My goals are not lofty. I merely want to create
pretty things for myself and my friends and have a damn good time doing it!

I have to start tomorrow morning and concentrate on basic cutting. First
things first!

Thanks for the help all of you fine artists. This is one of your online
students who heard today's lesson loud and clear.

Regards,
Karen F.
mailto:classi@sssnet.com


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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 22:24:00 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 00:05:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.19519.0>
Precedence: bulk



Suzanne,

Sounds to me like the problem is in the breaking technique rather than in
the score.  When you bend glass to break it you create a pressure focus
on the underside of the glass.  If you use the Morton system with the
little button, the focus is an actual point, right where the button is. 
If you use your hands to break the glass there is not an actual focus
point where something pushes up on the glass behind the score but rather
you create an "implied focus" where the forces from your two hands meet. 
If this implied focus is not landing directly behind the score your glass
will flare toward the location of the implied focus.

In the case of a score line that curves back and forth you must address
each curve in the line with a bending action tailored just for that part
of the curve.  If you just grab it at one and and muscle the break
straight across the glass the focus will be in one place only and
everything to the right of it will have flares pointing to the left and
everything to the left of the focus will have flares pointing to the
right

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 12:17:34 -0600 Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>Ok..
>
>Not wanting to go see Elisabeth with *all* my glass having met my
>grinder....(I told ya I was scared)
>
>I have been inspecting each of my breaks to critique each and every
>score.  This is what I have found...
>
>My score looks good (to me) right amount of pressure and appears 
>even.
>
>When I have a very thin amount of glass to break off...if it doesnt 
>all
>come off together, I find little mountains on the glasses broken edge
>(make sense?) but the line is fine on the top and bottom of the glass. 
>
>The mini mountain is what I would grind off.  Cant groze it off 
>without
>getting into my peice of glass.
>
>Another thing I find is with a wavy score, the top side line is 
>fine...
>but it doesnt break straight up and down on the edge...so that the
>bottom side of the glass comes out a little further than the top. A
>small slope.  Sheesh this challenges my communications skills.
>
>Is this caused by not holding my cutter staight up and down?  Hope 
>you
>guys can visualise what I am referring to.
>
>There isnt much to grind off..just enough to make my glass straight 
>up
>and down.  Am I tilting???
>
>I hold my cutter like an ice pick! ;o)  This assumes that y'all know 
>how
>to hold an ice pick to judge how I hold my cutter!
>
>Thanks 
>
>Tulsa Suzanne
>----

>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 15 23:15:53 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 01:16:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb15.201655.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sparks,
Very Well Said

I motion that we move on and put an end to this thread and everyone just
agrees to disagree on the subject!

Karen
Think Spring!


>ooooooohhhhhhh  NICE going, sparks.  Eloquently stated and very precise.
My
>sentiments exactly and forget about returning me back to the regularly
>scheduled program.......:-)
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 00:46:03 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 02:19:10 -0500
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Interesting...."(looks) deceptively good" now translates to "too
perfect"!

Often these deceptively good looking pieces are so tightly fitted that
the solder can't even penetrate between the glass leaving the work
FATALLY WEAKENED.  All that is there is a lacework of solder on the
surfaces held together only by the foil connecting the front and rear
solder "filigrees". Believe it or not folks this is not structurally
sound.  Foil is meant to be the substrate upon which the structural
solder is laid.  Don't depend on foil, or worse yet the foil adhesive as
the major structural elements in your work.

And anyway the point has to do with what the beginner is lead to believe.
 I think everyone has the RIGHT TO KNOW the most widely accepted
professional methods and get a fair chance to give it a try before being
hi-jacked by a grinder salesman masquerading as a teacher.  If after a
fair try they decide that standing in front of a grinder all day is a
rewarding hobby, that's ok.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

On Mon, 15 Feb 1999 14:52:41 EST JJKIRBY@aol.com writes:
>
><< The BIG problem all begins because the beginner is allowed by this
> flawed technique of OVER GRINDING to produce a product that is
> deceptively good.  Once having made a nice looking product, the 
>thought
> of the next not being as good or better is unbearable.  Sure they'd 
>like
> to try cutting the glass better but the fear that it will come out 
>too
> small and the solder lines will be fat or uneven is overwhelming.  
>Almost
> from the first project they're hooked!
> 	I tell my students that there is no shame in making an 
>imperfect piece. 
> "Send it off to your relatives in California. >>
>
>
>This is fascinating: Gary says using a grinder can make your work too 
>
>perfect,  Albert says using a grinder results in less craftsmanship.
>
>To paraphrase Gertrude Stein: a grinder is a grinder is a grinder 
>
>Tools (imho) tend to be independent from the person who uses them.  
>The
>results
>tend to be a third independent quantity.
>
>As a neo-caveman artist, I can just spit on the wall,  or I can 
>create
>graceful
>horses and bison.  Correspondingly with the latest airbrush and 
>acrylics, I 
>can just spray or create art.
>
>The art matters, the craft matters - the tools say nothing about the 
>person
>who
>uses them - except in cases of reproduction or restoration.
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 02:21:33 1999
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 03:13:41 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cutting and grinding
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> Someone on one of the lists said that if stained glass were easy, everyone
> would be doing it. I just came to the realization that it isn't easy, but I
> am determined to do it! 

Bravo, Karen! Doing anything well is worth the effort. Those who push 
products want it to be easy ... and it *is, in a way. But doing it 
well takes gumption and a willingness to be the best you can be. 
Sounds like the flame of fine craftsmanship has kindled itself in 
you. Good luck and God speed!

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 03:28:04 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:41:30 -0000
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Dani said

>The information I pass on is simply one
>professional's perspective.... if you wanna be like us, here's
>how we do it.

I agree 100 per cent!

I hope nobody is surpised at that.

The key word here is professional.

If you are a hobbiest - please yourself. If you need to lean on the grinder
then that's ok don't feel bad about it - you can still produce good work.
I'd rather see you making things that quitting.

If your are a hobbiest wanting to be professional then listen to the people
who know how to do it.

If your are a trainee professional then sell your grinder to a hobbiest who
could do with a bargain!

If you are a professional then you can grind (just a occasionally!)

I do as I do with a clear conscience - so should we all!

I'm ok with all that -- my very last word! (On THAT subject!)

BtB






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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 03:42:55 1999
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From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: <Yegnim@aol.com>, <pjnelson@glassdogstudio.com>, "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:16:31 -0000
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Hello

What's this about a tiny cutter? Have I missed a posting?

I've got one made by called a Silberschnitt 424.0  that I have yet to try
out. It's a very small tungsten carbide wheel at the end of an adjustable
arm fitted into a palm held handle.  Is that the same thing? If so I'd love
to know how you get on with it Paula.

It's supposed to be good for cutting small pieces of glass??

I haven't had a chance to try it yet! (too busy grinding!)

BtB

>Paula,
>I am very curious about your tiny cutter.  Is there some way you could find
>out the name and/or manufacturer of it?  Is it really old?
>Lenore
>----











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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 04:01:11 1999
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please take me off the list at   "stainglasborzoi@webtv.net" until my
equipment is repaired. thank you.

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 05:59:14 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:36:27 +0000
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Steve,

I'll pretend to authority!  :-)

In message <3.0.3.32.19990215150909.00914770@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>,
Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com> writes
>One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is to tin
>the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat solder
>(50/50), then bead (60/40).  Is the edge tinning step really worth it?  It
>takes a lot of extra time...not to mention the occasional burns when
>working with small pieces and flux on the finger tips.
>
>Before my world view was upset by that book's advice, I was happy as a clam
>beading my 60/40 over a 50/50 flat soldered base and not thinking much
>about the hidden edges.  Now I'm wondering if a work that hasn't been edge
>tinned is weaker structurally than one that has.  I suspect the solder
>heart is much more uniform on an edge-tinned piece.  With flat soldering
>alone, we depend on a heart forming from solder that maybe flows and maybe
>doesn't past inner edges that were fluxed only by drip-through coincidence.
>
You already are making two passes with the iron over the assembled
piece.  I do tin the edges and sides of copper foil, sometimes with
50/50, and then finish with 60/40.  So this is only two passes too.  No
time lost due to tinning.
But actually, I tin only when I'm making something which has to be water
tight, as I have found that makes a better seal.  If it makes a water
tight seal, it must be a good joint, so it would seem to be best for
flat pieces too.  But preference must rule on that one.
        So, why not consider tinning with 50/50 and then going directly
to the 60/40 beading?  Even conduct an experiment on which works best
for you?

>For that matter, is the solder heart really all that important to the
>strength of a foiled work?  Obviously, the better the fit between pieces,
>the *narrower* the heart.  That tempts me to conclude that the heart
>mustn't matter much at all, but then I think about steel I-beams.  They
>clearly resist bending more than would two randomly connected parallel
>steel strips the same width and thickness.  

The solder heart is absolutely necessary.   without it the piece relies
on the adhesive, which will fail long before the solder.  The solder
bead on copper foil pieces acts as an "I" beam the same way as on came.
And it provides the strength of the piece.  So tight fitting as to
prevent solder to flow in between the two foil faces, will actually make
the piece weaker (as well as increase the risk of heat shock breakage,
as mentioned by another person) than marginally loose fitting - no slack
fitting is allowed!  :-)

>
>I think I'm convincing myself that the foil itself provides the essential
>heart and that extra solder in between the pieces is nice but not really
>necessary.  If that's true, a panel assembled with 1.5 mil foil of a given
>width would be stronger than the same panel using thinner foil of the same
>width.  Seems reasonable.  Can anyone speak with authority...or pretend to
>do so ;-)?  
>
I hope responses on the list will get you to consider that the "heart"
of the copper foil is the strength, not the foil and adhesive.

Steve (on the other side of the pond)

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 06:42:53 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: Artistry, was Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:23:40 -0800
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Actually Chihuly is doing the same thing LCT did, only he used mostly women to do
his lamps.

Carol T
Bet they wished then someone had invented a grinder

Albert Lewis wrote:

> > The same goes for glass artists too. I read recently that the much-mentioned
> > (and occasionally maligned) Chihuly doesn't do his own glassblowing because
> > with one eye he has no depth perception, so it wouldn't be safe for him or the
> > other folks he works with. So he designs and supervises.
>
> Actually, he's practicing what's normal anywhere outside North
> America. In Europe, for instance, the artist/designer would never
> actually execute the work. It's a very "new world" approach to do
> that.
>
> So in a way, he's re-created the Murano glass shop whatever his
> excuse or explanation might be.
>
> Albert
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 07:08:11 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
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Subject: Re: Work and learning styles, was Re: Grinder vs glass cutter
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 08:42:41 -0800
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I agree with Sparks.  If something works for you, then use it.  I use the
Morton system that has been maligned here too, but I love it, wouldn't give
up the button for anything.  My cutting is good, I prefer to use the grinder
not to "make the pieces fit" but to take off rough edges.  I think it does a
better job than grozing and probably in the long run takes the same amount of
time for me.  And for ng - air conditioning - you can't live in NC without
it, as a matter of fact, NJ either.  JMHO.

Carol T
Into the 21st century with my grinder, Morton system, various "gadgets", and
A/C.

Karen K wrote:

> Sparks,
> Very Well Said
>
> I motion that we move on and put an end to this thread and everyone just
> agrees to disagree on the subject!
>
> Karen
> Think Spring!
>
> >ooooooohhhhhhh  NICE going, sparks.  Eloquently stated and very precise.
> My
> >sentiments exactly and forget about returning me back to the regularly
> >scheduled program.......:-)
> >----
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> >
>
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 07:44:34 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:45:51 -0500
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Brian,
I agree. "Different strokes for different folks". I understand both sides but
each of us has to do what we are comfortable with. It's the "doing"  that makes
all phases of glassing easier. practice, practice, practice.
K See

Brian Shepherd wrote:

> Hello
>
> Ok if we aren't going to slam peoples work or pricing then let's slam their
> techniques! BG
>
> I don't think anybody would deny that there people in this world who are
> better at cutting glass that others - they must be they tell us so! Ok then
> that gives us all something to aspire to.
>
> I admire all skilled people. No skills are easily won and they are priceless
> to those who have them and a wonder to observe. We all venerate
> craftsmanship!
>
> We should all remember that a grinder is an enabling tool. It allows people
> to make things in stained glass without having to acquire the cutting skills
> first. I don't think there is anything wrong with that in this urgent age.
>
> I began by grozing from the start. My cutting was appalling. Then I got a
> grinder so I groze then ground to shape. As my skills improved I gave up
> nearly!) grozing and ground only. Now I ALWAYS grind lightly (at least!)
> just so that I can handle and foil the piece with confidence.
>
> I will not be admonished for using a work pattern that suits me!
>
> So all you non grinders can go around patting your selves and your friends
> on the back and feeling holier than everybody else if it makes you happy -
> you deserve it.
>
> All you grinders need feel no remorse. You are good guys as well! Your
> skills will come if you work at them but you have no reason to feel humbled
> in the presence of all this greatness!
>
> Anyway - it's results that matter - who cares how you make it - if it's
> beautiful it's beautiful!
>
> :o)
>
> BtB
>
> PS I don't think the LCT factory would have used a grinder - ever! I think
> they would have used one of these high pressure water cutter thingies if
> they had been available!
>
> PPS On second thoughts maybe LCT would have used a completely automated
> assembly plant - if they had been available. The only thing he might have
> resisted would have been automatic colour selection (for a while at least!)
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 08:03:50 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>, bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: First tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 09:27:01 -0500
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Hi Jennifer,
Try to take advantage of Delphi Stained Glass for your grinder purchase; they offer 25% off your first order. address: delphiglass.com
Welcome to bungi
K See

Jennifer Frisbee wrote:

> Thanks for the advice.  I think you are right...I was getting a bit ahead of myself.  I think I'm becoming a tool-junkie just like my husband!
>
> The reason I brought up the saw and grinder bit is due to the Powerkits system we had seen in the Inland catalog.  Since both of us do a good deal of craft work (my husband builds puppets and marionettes), we thought that it might be a good investment.  However, for my stained glass work right now I really don't need the saw at all.  The grinder, however, really helped my last piece come together (a small kaleidoscope with a lot of little pieces)...so I may bite the bullet and invest in one soon.
>
> Well...thanks again....back to the practicing board!
>
> Jen Frisbee - newbie extraordinaire!
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 08:52:33 1999
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From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "Karen F." <classi@sssnet.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: cutting and grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:22:51 -0500
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Karen F.

First of all I must say I am not a fine artist, but a person that works in
and at stained glass and find I love it.  I try hard and do the very best I
can with whatever I am doing.

Don't be so hard on yourself, just keep on plugging.  All of these things
take time and practice.

I am in the midst of debating with a neighbor that is new to stained glass
many issues, and it is apparent she can't see mine and I surely can't see
hers.  She is brand new, I have spent time showing and letting her cut glass
with pieces I have laying around.  Showing her how I hold my cutter and cut.
She has a grinder and saw now and feels she does not need to learn to cut
with a glass cutter she can just use the saw.  And grind anything else that
might come up.  So what she has come up with is a way to not cut glass at
all.  I suppose the next thing she will get is a gizmo that foils her piece.

I learned the old fashioned way and now am listening to the people on this
page that are doing fine work.  I am planning on doing my next window taking
into consideration Dani Greer's and other people that have posted recently
on this subject, suggestions that I cut better and grind less.  I am willing
to adapt and learn.

I feel a bit bad that I was taught from the beginning that you had to grind
to get foil to adhiere to the glass.  So this next time griding will not be
the order of the day but the exception.

So you just keep on keeping on, and don't be too critical of your work, you
are just starting out.  Do the best you can and on your next piece do
better, that is all any of us can as of ourselves.

Linda Jo
Jacksonville, Florida


--Original Message-----
From: Karen F. <classi@sssnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 1:12 AM
Subject: cutting and grinding


>The professionals' debate on this subject hit an emotional nerve here too,
>Suzanne. Every word that I have read from these fine artists points out my
>shortcomings as a new person just trying to turn out a decent and
>respectable piece of work. It couldn't have come at a better time for me. I
>have gone down to the basement and looked at the needless break lines that
I
>put in the pattern and realized that I should re-cut areas of the design
>with one large piece instead of two pieces to give it simplicity for a more
>pleasing design.
>
>I found that the reason so many pieces had gaps between them was because I
>was using the grinder to compensate for careless cutting. Of course the
>grinder pressure I used was too much in some areas, thus the gaps. My cuts
>were "blocky" and not graceful and flowing. I used the grinder to round out
>the "corners" that I created instead of the flowing lines that I should
have
>cut.
>
>Even though the grinder was part of the start-up kit when I took a few
>lessons, the instructor did not tell me to use the grinder religiously.
That
>bad habit I fell into when I started working at home because I assumed it
>made it easier for me to get the puzzle pieces to "sort of fit". In the
long
>run, that has proven to be a false assumption.
>
>Someone on one of the lists said that if stained glass were easy, everyone
>would be doing it. I just came to the realization that it isn't easy, but I
>am determined to do it! My goals are not lofty. I merely want to create
>pretty things for myself and my friends and have a damn good time doing it!
>
>I have to start tomorrow morning and concentrate on basic cutting. First
>things first!
>
>Thanks for the help all of you fine artists. This is one of your online
>students who heard today's lesson loud and clear.
>
>Regards,
>Karen F.
>mailto:classi@sssnet.com
>
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 09:05:01 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:19:23 +0000
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Hi All,

What a wonderful and gracious statement from Karen F. !!!
What a delight it would have been to have had you as a student!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Karen F. wrote:
Thanks for the help all of you fine artists. This is one of your online
students who heard today's lesson loud and clear.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 09:05:44 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: business card holders
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:39:33 -0500
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sorry folks to those of you I promised jpg files. I sent 7 from home this 
weekend...I promise. Seems my server had trouble with the attachments. I 
even tried to send the file to myself here at work but it didn't work. Will 
put on a disk tonight and bring to work to e-mail tomorrow. I have a 
partial list of ya'll who asked for copies. If your name does not appear 
here and you would like to get a copy of the files, please send again. 
sorry for the lateness and trouble.

Glass Expressions
Dee Thompson
Lenore
Jerri
Linda Letscher
Kay Sodt
gjr@bungi.com
charles_spitzer@stratus.com
MISGLAS@aol.com
glasscat@infinet.com
PDRUSS@aol.com
glassx@bardstown.com
seaspray@mail.island.net
fullspec@sunset.net


Linda


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 10:42:39 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Score Patterns
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:46:53 -0500
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Spectrum's web page with copies of SCORE, used to give you the monthly 
patterns. Now they are missing. I e-mailed Spectrum and this is their 
response along with my post. Nice Company. :)

Linda

-----Original Message-----

>Noticed a recent change in your on-line score - no patterns. Okay, I can
>un erstand that the purpose of score is to get folks to visit their local
>retail and that generates business and more opportunities to buy
>Spectrum glass but how about a peek of the patterns, maybe a small gif
>so we can see if it is something that interests us.
>
>Thanks for all the great glass & great web site.
>
>Linda Campbell




Well, Linda, that's a thought! I'll discuss it with the powers that be and
see what we can do! Thanks for the idea!

Sara Peterson
Marketing Assistant
artglass@SpectrumGlass.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:00:15 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Work and learning styles
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:40 EST
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In a message dated 2/15/99 10:19:39 PM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:

>Glass is different in that you can't UNscore or UNcut it.

You can't "uncut" fabric either. A slip of the scissors can ruin things just
as quickly as a slip of the cutter wheel.

>You can't just
>rip a couple of stiches if your maching goes off course.

In the course of my learning, I've done proportionally just about as much
unsoldering and resoldering as seam-ripping when things didn't fit properly.
Blecchhhhh.

>I really want my students to cut something fairly crude at first.

That makes a big difference. I didn't have the "luxury" (?) of starting out on
something crude. I had to start off producing "the good stuff."

>there
>is a huge psychological obstacle that creates a fear that just won't
>allow someone to cut as small as they must initially once they have
>experienced the grind large and cut to fit technique.

That's true for some people, not for others.

And that's the thing that really bugs me about this whole biz: the assumptions
(often unconscious or unacknowledged) that everyone's brain is wired the same
and will have the same "psycholigical obstacles," that everyone's body is
wired the same (low rumble of lefties and "ambies" getting riled all over the
place), that there's only one "right" way to teach (a misconception that
plagues the educational field in general), only one "right" way to learn
(ditto), only one "really professional" way to do things (which all too often
translates in practice to "whatever I personally am bugged by is by definition
unprofessional" - an atitude that afflicts not only "bosses" but all of us to
some degree), etc.

Some folks say that sort of thing is "just human nature," but meeting up with
and getting burned by tacit assumptions like that is perhaps the biggest
psychological obstacle of all. Fortunately, it's also human nature to be able
to overcome those assumptions and keep them from turning into prejudices, and
to learn to communicate in such a way that they don't imply any (real or
imaginary) prejudices.

I quit for now......

<collective sigh of relief from the assembled multitude> :-)



		--------Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:04:21 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
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Subject: Re: UPS - or should that have been OOPS!
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:37 EST
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In a message dated 2/15/99 8:01:48 PM, suzy@ComCAT.COM wrote:

>>Sparks (former Paranoid Professional Post-Office Proofer)
>
>Good heavens, Sparks, what *haven't you been in a former life?

Rich, famous, an astronaut (which, when I was a kid, is what I wanted to be
when I grew up)......... just to name a few.........

>Reminds me, we haven't seen a bio from you!

That's 'cause I'm still trying to get a life :-)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:06:22 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
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In a message dated 2/15/99 6:29:03 PM, GreerStudios@compuserve.com wrote:

>Magic ain't got nothin' to do with it.... just practice.

Awwwwwww, c'mon, I was bein' facetious! :-)

The reality in my universe: Often as not, after months or years, something
just "clicks" and I suddenly "get it." My learning "curves" are so full of
these quantum leaps that it often feels like "magic."

Sometimes my quantum leaps come after I've gotten frustrated and left
something for a while and come back to it, only to find that in the mean time
it's the "bad" habits that have gotten rusty, leaving the "good" ones room to
take over.

Hah, didn't I say I'm wired backwards?!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:23:31 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>, bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: First tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:31:25 -0500
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Jennifer,

compare prices before you use the 25% coupon at Delphi. I was recently 
ready to make an order of the oak frame and mechanical parts for a clock. 
Delphi had gone up so high on their prices that even after the 25% off, I 
could buy it cheaper from another source. And when the limited 25% coupon 
expires...well, the price is awful. I used to think Delphi's prices were 
great before the coupon; now I compare them very carefully with other 
mail-order places. There's always you local shop. If they order other stuff 
at the same time they order for you, the shipping prices come down. Not so 
much on glass but on other things, I've noticed that I can pay local sales 
taxes and get by cheaper than mail order because of the shipping costs.

 K See said:

Hi Jennifer,
Try to take advantage of Delphi Stained Glass for your grinder purchase; 
they offer 25% off your first order. address: delphiglass.com
Welcome to bungi
K See

Jennifer Frisbee wrote:

> Thanks for the advice.  I think you are right...I was getting a bit ahead 
of myself.  I think I'm becoming a tool-junkie just like my husband!
>
> The reason I brought up the saw and grinder bit is due to the Powerkits 
system we had seen in the Inland catalog.  Since both of us do a good deal 
of craft work (my husband builds puppets and marionettes), we thought that 
it might be a good investment.  However, for my stained glass work right 
now I really don't need the saw at all.  The grinder, however, really 
helped my last piece come together (a small kaleidoscope with a lot of 
little pieces)...so I may bite the bullet and invest in one soon.
>
> Well...thanks again....back to the practicing board!
>
> Jen Frisbee - newbie extraordinaire!
>
> ____________________________________________________________________
> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:23:32 1999
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Subject: Re:  Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:32 EST
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In a message dated 2/15/99 8:16:43 PM, steve@villagesoftsmith.com wrote:

>One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is to tin
>the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat solder
>(50/50), then bead (60/40). 

Now *that's* something that's always seemed to me like a far bigger waste of
time than grinding will ever be!

The only time I tin anything before assembly is when the edge of the work has
such a deep "V" where 2 pieces come together (f'rinstance, I have an angel
pattern that has one where the wing joins the body) that I wouldn't be able to
get the tip of the iron in there.


					---------Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:23:33 1999
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:35 EST
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In a message dated 2/15/99 10:30:29 PM, alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net wrote:

>Grew up in Southern California in 120-degree 
>summers. No AC. Just what they called "desert coolers": water dripped 
>down through excelsior, fan driving dampened air into house.

Sheesh. I remember those! We had a great big one in our little tiny house when
I was a kid. On really dry days, it actually used to ice up!

I don't know if you can even still get them out west. They were wonderfully
efficient, no compressor to run, just a fan. If I moved back out there, I'd
want to get one of those. The heck with those noisy electricity-gobbling
newfangled air-conditioner contraptions!


			-------Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:35:44 1999
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Subject: Re:  Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:30 EST
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In a message dated 2/16/99 3:46:56 AM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:

>so tightly fitted that
>the solder can't even penetrate between the glass leaving the work
>FATALLY WEAKENED.  All that is there is a lacework of solder on the
>surfaces held together only by the foil connecting the front and rear
>solder "filigrees". Believe it or not folks this is not structurally
>sound.  Foil is meant to be the substrate upon which the structural
>solder is laid.

It always seemed perfectly logical to me that it was the solder "I-beams" that
held the piece together. Thanks for the confirmation!


---------Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:44:35 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Business Card Holders
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:43:39 -0500
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Sorry for the intrusion to all but I need to know who wanted copies of the 
jpg files of business card holders for Dentist and Optician. My server at 
home refused to take the attachments and unfortunately, I thru out the 
addresss I sent to. Please respond to me again. Teh worst that can happen 
iw you will get two coppies. :)

I return you to the regularly scheduled program now in progerss.

Linda
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 11:47:47 1999
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 12:07:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:12:29 -0500
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We try to stay away from air conditioners, too.  Darned =

unhealthy things as far as I'm concerned.  Don't have 'em
in the autos either.  Same category as the grinders....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 12:34:43 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:34:58 -0500
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I walked through J.C. Penny's lamp department recently and saw 16" dragonfly
lamps made by Dale Tiffany on sale for $225.00.  Whatever the merits of
where and who the labor force was, the lamps were well made with extremely
consistent solder lines.  The solder lines looked as if they could of been
done with robotics.  Does this technology exist?  If so where?

Does anyone know where Dale Tiffany is from and where these lamps are made?
Tiffany & Company has their corporate headquarters about five miles from my
home.  I don't think they are a part of him else the price would be more
like $22,225.

TIA

Ciao

Vic

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 12:39:54 1999
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:34:19 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01BE59A0.4AB703A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi all=20
This is really glassyjess (back from the barely breathing again ;))
I just bought a Thompson cutter and have been in heaven, this cutter has =
made the biggest difference of all tools bought to-date
I can cut even the smallest most intricate pieces now and haven't had to =
grind hardly any since buying this perfect cutter.

I had a stroke in April leaving my right side diminished and thought I =
wasn't going to ever be able to get the hang of scoring.  My husband was =
ready to buy me the score one (the little sewing machine looking cutter) =
but on our way home from shands hospital we stopped in at North Florida =
Stained Glass and the owner showed us the Thompson cutter (the one =
designed by the husband for his wife who suffered from arthritis). She =
let me try cutting a few pieces and it was like opening the door to a =
whole new world.

this is just my humble opinion and experience, now a grinder is way off =
in my future if ever.
Jess

------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01BE59A0.4AB703A0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Hi all </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>This is really glassyjess (back from =
the barely=20
breathing again ;))</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I just bought a Thompson cutter and =
have been in=20
heaven, this cutter has made the biggest difference of all tools bought=20
to-date</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I can cut even the smallest most =
intricate=20
pieces now and haven't had to grind hardly any since buying this perfect =

cutter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I had a stroke in April leaving my =
right side=20
diminished and thought I wasn't going to ever be able to get the hang of =

scoring.&nbsp; My husband was ready to buy me the score one (the little =
sewing=20
machine looking cutter) but on our way home from shands hospital we =
stopped in=20
at North Florida Stained Glass and the owner showed us the Thompson =
cutter (the=20
one designed by the husband for his wife who suffered from arthritis). =
She let=20
me try cutting a few pieces and it was like opening the door to a whole =
new=20
world.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>this is just my humble opinion and =
experience,=20
now a grinder is way off in my future if ever.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Jess</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_00EE_01BE59A0.4AB703A0--

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 12:58:11 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: business card holders
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 14:46:38 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.64638.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.53933.0>>
Precedence: bulk

hI i WOULD ALL SO LIKE A COPY THANKS lAURA

Linda Campbell wrote:

> sorry folks to those of you I promised jpg files. I sent 7 from home this
> weekend...I promise. Seems my server had trouble with the attachments. I
> even tried to send the file to myself here at work but it didn't work. Will
> put on a disk tonight and bring to work to e-mail tomorrow. I have a
> partial list of ya'll who asked for copies. If your name does not appear
> here and you would like to get a copy of the files, please send again.
> sorry for the lateness and trouble.
>
> Glass Expressions
> Dee Thompson
> Lenore
> Jerri
> Linda Letscher
> Kay Sodt
> gjr@bungi.com
> charles_spitzer@stratus.com
> MISGLAS@aol.com
> glasscat@infinet.com
> PDRUSS@aol.com
> glassx@bardstown.com
> seaspray@mail.island.net
> fullspec@sunset.net
>
> Linda
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 13:21:11 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:27:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.42753.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I must confess, the only history, I know about Stained Glass is from
bungi posts.
But I have a question:
Tiffanity developed foil work, right?  They cut the copper sheets
themselves, right?
Did it have adhesive on it, or did they simple wrap it and it stayed in
place like aluminum wrap does? And did they have different thickness???
It couldn't have been as nice as venture tape is!
They must have had people who cut glass and people who foiled glass.?
Hope you don't mind, it is just easier to ask you, than go down to the
library and look it up.
Thanks in advance 
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 13:43:42 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:30:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.103013.0>
Precedence: bulk

Another time to pretin is when you seal dried flowers between 2 pcs of glass
for night lights or kaleidoscopes, or something.  I pretin and clean the
glass, set in the flowers and solder without flux.  It works and you don't
have to worry about getting dirt, melted flux or water sealed inside.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?


>
>In a message dated 2/15/99 8:16:43 PM, steve@villagesoftsmith.com wrote:
>
>>One of the beading methods the Rich/Mitchell/Ward book recommends is to
tin
>>the *edges* of all foiled pieces with 50/50 before layout, then flat
solder
>>(50/50), then bead (60/40).
>
>Now *that's* something that's always seemed to me like a far bigger waste
of
>time than grinding will ever be!
>
>The only time I tin anything before assembly is when the edge of the work
has
>such a deep "V" where 2 pieces come together (f'rinstance, I have an angel
>pattern that has one where the wing joins the body) that I wouldn't be able
to
>get the tip of the iron in there.
>
>
> ---------Sparks
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 13:56:48 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 13:05:27 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.5527.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.162837.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

> >Reminds me, we haven't seen a bio from you!
> 
> That's 'cause I'm still trying to get a life :-)
> 
> Sparks
Oh goody, then that means we get two from you.  One before and one
after!!!!!!
Looking forward to reading both of em.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 14:02:32 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Another question
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:45:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.44556.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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I have been going through old Glass Pattern Quarterly trying to get
motivated and I came across this pattern.
It is a cherub looking angel.  Chin on arms with wings behind only.
The magazine has this pattern in the fold out.  It is to be made into a
22 inch square frame.

The enlarged pattern has large black areas between the wing pieces up by
the face.  My question is: does this represent pure solder?  And if so,
what does this do to the strength of the over all project?
It is the Fall 1998 issue.
Thanks in advance,
Shirley
B
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 14:13:35 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: twinjeeps <twinjeeps@ksinc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:00:29 -0600
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Precedence: bulk

Jess.

That is really wonderful!  I am so happy for you that you can continue
to work with glass.  Best wishes for a continued recovery, and more and
more strength! ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne



This is really glassyjess (back from the barely breathing again ;))
I just bought a Thompson cutter and have been in heaven, this cutter has
=
made the biggest difference of all tools bought to-date
I can cut even the smallest most intricate pieces now and haven't had to
=
grind hardly any since buying this perfect cutter.

I had a stroke in April leaving my right side diminished and thought I =
wasn't going to ever be able to get the hang of scoring.  My husband was
=
ready to buy me the score one (the little sewing machine looking cutter)
=
but on our way home from shands hospital we stopped in at North Florida
=
Stained Glass and the owner showed us the Thompson cutter (the one =
designed by the husband for his wife who suffered from arthritis). She =
let me try cutting a few pieces and it was like opening the door to a =
whole new world.
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 14:58:16 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:07:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.12733.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.81229.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> We try to stay away from air conditioners, too.  Darned =
> 
> unhealthy things as far as I'm concerned.  Don't have 'em
> in the autos either.  Same category as the grinders....
> 
> Best,
> 
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


ok air conditioner - bad example. 

how about a microwave, a computer, or the internet. people who don't
have them, don't need them. if they get one they'll never know what they
did with out one.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 15:18:50 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: cutting and grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:42:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.114256.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanks, Karen, for those nice words.  My guess is that you'll turn
into a world-class glass artist because you already demonstrate
a sensitivity to the medium and to good design.  Michael always =

says that serious hobbyists ought to be doing the very best work
of anyone.  Why?  Because they have the luxury of time working
in their favor.  You can spend all the time you need reaching
perfection.  When you do it for a living, you always have a client
that wanted their commission two weeks ago!  ;-)  And at least
a dozen past-due jobs waiting in the wings... and usually working
on three different things at the same time.... it's like a revolving
door!  We get good because it's not just practice, practice,
practice -- it's practicepracticepracticepracticepracticepractice.....
well, you get the idea.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 15:22:42 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Advice on first tools
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:43:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.11432.0>
Precedence: bulk

And I ditto Brian's last words!

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 15:46:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:42:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.114249.0>
Precedence: bulk

Gary Dodge, you are a very smart man.  Alot of folks would
be wise to pay attention to what you have to say.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 15:47:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: cutting and grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:43:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.11435.0>
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Linda Jo, five years from now when your neighbor's work =

exhibits tons of stress fractures from all those fancy cuts
her saw made for her.... you'll have the knowledge, experience,
and ability to explain to her what the problem is.... and then
you can show her how to do a repair, too.  ;-)  And how to
create a good design that doesn't require all those crazy
cuts to be successful.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:04:57 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Another question
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:12:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.12126.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.44556.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> I have been going through old Glass Pattern Quarterly trying to get
> motivated and I came across this pattern.
> It is a cherub looking angel.  Chin on arms with wings behind only.
> The magazine has this pattern in the fold out.  It is to be made into a
> 22 inch square frame.
> 
> The enlarged pattern has large black areas between the wing pieces up by
> the face.  My question is: does this represent pure solder?  And if so,
> what does this do to the strength of the over all project?
> It is the Fall 1998 issue.
> Thanks in advance,
> Shirley
> B
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it would probably use up solder and make everything a bit heavier. the
solder itself should be pretty strong. if it's a wide area, wrap a small
piece of glass in foil (and cover the glass itself). then solder over
that. this way you'll have less waste and less of a chance of heat
cracking something. not to mention preventing a small fire on your
bench.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:21:28 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:43:19 -0500
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Don't know if this is fact or not... but, it seems to me he's in
Washington state and claims to be related to LCT... that's
coming out of the deep dark recesses of my memory.... I =

think he might have a web site.... =


best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:26:25 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:18:53 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.101853.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.42753.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley...

I did a search on Yahoo of "Louis Comfort Tiffany"  Came up with 94
websites...

Interesting.  Wish I had the time to read everything I would like to.
I hadnt heard or read this before...

"Louis Tiffany began producing lamps after Thomas Edison suggested the
idea during their collaboration on the lighting of the first movie
theater, the Lyceum."
I read this on  http://www.artisticglassusa.com/tiffhistory.html

Of course anyone can make a webpage and say anything they want...
(I dont know who authored this website or how dependable the information
is)

T Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:31:59 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:22:31 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.102231.0>
References: <<36C9EECD.2FAE@ix.netcom.com>>
Precedence: bulk

I would say the information on this site should be pretty reliable! ;o)
http://www.tiffany.com/intro/lctbio.htm
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:38:02 1999
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Hi,
Please remove me from the list til my computer gets up-dated.

  Thank you,
    Tim Byrnes     tbyrnes@iconn.net
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:52:40 1999
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Subject: support group for grinder users
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:45:11 -0500
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We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
you there!

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 16:54:10 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RAGS Site
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 15:33:08 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.7338.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
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Hi All,

I've been asked to announce the official opening of the Retailers of Art
Glass and Supplies web site to you all today. The group better known as
RAGS is up and running with a nice site.
You can ask the pro's questions, get safety tips and more. Pretty cool!

http://www.stainedglassretailers.com/

See ya

Pam


--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 17:06:48 1999
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Subject: Re: Business Card Holders
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:32:17 EST
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Linda,   
  I would love a copy of the business card holders.
   LUANNE
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 17:21:48 1999
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Subject: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:35:00 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.23350.0>
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I had a ponderous moment as I browsed through that website that was discussed
a week ago.  The woman had alot of work displayed, somewhat a bit high in
price....

Anyway, further on in her sight she mentioned that she did a restoration of a
church window, but used foil instead of lead when she reconstructed it.....for
added strength (not wishing to start any debate in THAT direction)  Is this
truly considered restoration?  I am just a basement breaker, the only things I
have restored are the projects I have managed to break...(big grin).  But in
the truest sense of the word, I felt that she misrepresented her work.  Any
other thoughts?

Maureen 
mosfunland@aol.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 17:43:01 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:58:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.13586.0>
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Unfortunately there is only so much that one can convey in a response,
then to make matters worse a bit of creative snipping can change the
meaning.

The fact is that from nearly 20 years of teaching glass and almost 30
years working with it, I have observed the most common problems that
beginners face and am constantly adjusting my methods to address those
problems.  Furthermore the implication that I am inflexible is the
furthest thing from the truth.  

By the time my class is done we've got people both pulling and pushing
their glass cutters.  Breaking by hand and with runners  (but never
tapping....ok, maybe a little inflexible ;-)    Using whatever technique
will work for the individual.  But still and all there is one way that I
feel is best for the most people and it is my obligation to encourage
them to give it a fair try first.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 11:28:40 EST Witchdoc3@aol.com writes:
>
>In a message dated 2/15/99 10:19:39 PM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:
>
>>Glass is different in that you can't UNscore or UNcut it.
>
>You can't "uncut" fabric either. A slip of the scissors can ruin 
>things just
>as quickly as a slip of the cutter wheel.
>
>>You can't just
>>rip a couple of stiches if your maching goes off course.
>
>In the course of my learning, I've done proportionally just about as 
>much
>unsoldering and resoldering as seam-ripping when things didn't fit 
>properly.
>Blecchhhhh.
>
>>I really want my students to cut something fairly crude at first.
>
>That makes a big difference. I didn't have the "luxury" (?) of 
>starting out on
>something crude. I had to start off producing "the good stuff."
>
>>there
>>is a huge psychological obstacle that creates a fear that just won't
>>allow someone to cut as small as they must initially once they have
>>experienced the grind large and cut to fit technique.
>
>That's true for some people, not for others.
>
>And that's the thing that really bugs me about this whole biz: the 
>assumptions
>(often unconscious or unacknowledged) that everyone's brain is wired 
>the same
>and will have the same "psycholigical obstacles," that everyone's body 
>is
>wired the same (low rumble of lefties and "ambies" getting riled all 
>over the
>place), that there's only one "right" way to teach (a misconception 
>that
>plagues the educational field in general), only one "right" way to 
>learn
>(ditto), only one "really professional" way to do things (which all 
>too often
>translates in practice to "whatever I personally am bugged by is by 
>definition
>unprofessional" - an atitude that afflicts not only "bosses" but all 
>of us to
>some degree), etc.
>
>Some folks say that sort of thing is "just human nature," but meeting 
>up with
>and getting burned by tacit assumptions like that is perhaps the 
>biggest
>psychological obstacle of all. Fortunately, it's also human nature to 
>be able
>to overcome those assumptions and keep them from turning into 
>prejudices, and
>to learn to communicate in such a way that they don't imply any (real 
>or
>imaginary) prejudices.
>
>I quit for now......
>
><collective sigh of relief from the assembled multitude> :-)
>
>
>
>		--------Sparks
>----
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 17:54:04 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:24:57 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.82457.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.114249.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Ok, settle this controversy.
I make a small heart.  It is made of five pieces.  The center is open.
The center top of the heart has cloth ribbon in a bow and dangling down
from the bow (suspended by twoglued ribbon behind the bow)two glass
hearts.
I don't tin the outside.  I like just the foil plain.  Now I sell these
for $12.95.  Meaning I can't afford the extra work.
And I will admit, that the foil get ripped in the course of going to
many shows.
But for someone who buys one and puts it on wall or in window, that is
not a real problem.
So how do you feel about that.  Do you consider this unfinished work?
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 17:56:45 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: How did he do it?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:18:23 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.01823.0>
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Hello

I was trying to remember where I had read that it was not decided if  LCT
had invented the copper foil method. In moments of deep uncertainty I get my
books out and have a browse. I am very fortunate to have a copy of Neustad
(bought in much more pecunious days!) and looking at page 14 I noticed that
the glass was 'higher' than the solder - there was no bead - in fact it was
quite the reverse! The edge of the glass could be quite easily seen. This
was inside the shade admittedly but how did the foiling work if it didn't
wrap around the edge?

I concluded in the end that the glass must have been grozed to an angle so
that the foil did in fact wrap but didn't overlap the face of the glass.

As even without grinders (BG) the edges must have been perpendicular most of
the time so does this would mean that the glass would have to always be
grozed to give the 'nose' for the foil to wrap around?

It would also appear that the copper must have been trimmed to fit neatly
along the edge after foiling!

Given the reservoir of information on the bungi can anybody tell me if that
is correct. If it is then our modern methods are really quite different  and
in more ways than just glued foil!

Maybe I've got that all wrong - somebody tell me - I won't argue!

I didn't find the quote about who invented foiling either!

Best regards


BtB


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:10:20 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:49:42 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.84942.0>
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to put it delicately...........BULLSHIT!
He is of oriental descent.......
Many years ago I had some communication with the company.
At that point is was in Moonachie, NJ.

Also, if their work looks good, take a look at mine!
check out the archives for some earlier post directed toward this subject!
enjoy, H

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:26:12 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Tim Byrnes" <tbyrnes@iconn.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 17:12:23 -0800
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>>Hi,
Please remove me from the list til my computer gets up-dated.

  Thank you,
    Tim Byrnes     tbyrnes@iconn.net <<

Hey Tim,
Follow the dirrections at the bottom of your post to bungi and you will be
able to get off the list. Otherwise you will stay on this ride until it
ends. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:33:25 1999
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Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:56:49 EST
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Hi Dorothy -
I'll be there, BUT you better go for someplace larger - we just built a new
stadium here (National Car Rental Stadium) that I think is available for a
small fee.
Brenda

<< We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
 you there!
 
 Dorothy >>
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:41:11 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: bshep@dircon.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:28:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.142811.0>
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Brian,

I think the reference is to the Thomas grip cutter. (Someone said it had
a saddle on top.)  It is my favorite because years of using the old
fashioned type of cutter has destroyed my wrist and it is the only
comfortable cutter now.  It is great for beginners too because you can
apply even pressure without any kind of strain and the shortness brings
your hand right down close to the glass for better control.  If you want
to see a photo of one I have it up on my site at
www.dodgestudio.com/featured.htm

Gary Dodge

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 10:16:31 -0000 "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
writes:
>Hello
>
>What's this about a tiny cutter? Have I missed a posting?
>
>I've got one made by called a Silberschnitt 424.0  that I have yet to 
>try
>out. It's a very small tungsten carbide wheel at the end of an 
>adjustable
>arm fitted into a palm held handle.  Is that the same thing? If so I'd 
>love
>to know how you get on with it Paula.
>
>It's supposed to be good for cutting small pieces of glass??
>
>I haven't had a chance to try it yet! (too busy grinding!)
>
>BtB
>
>>Paula,
>>I am very curious about your tiny cutter.  Is there some way you 
>could find
>>out the name and/or manufacturer of it?  Is it really old?
>>Lenore
>>----
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:51:00 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 19:22:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.142251.0>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley,

I still have to this day a roll of foil on a wooden spool, about 6" or 8"
wide and kind of on the thick side, with no adhesive on it that came from
the old man who was my first employer in stained glass.  He used to mix
up adhesive of his own with bees wax that he painted onto the back of it
when he needed it for something special.  This home made adhesive in no
way compares with the stuff on the foil today.  ( The copper foil we use
today was already in existence, except that the glue was not nearly as
good as it is today either.)  And yes that was the way Tiffany worked
when he developed his new technique.  It is alos worthy of note that his
large windows were done primarily in lead came with the foil as mainly a
technique for making lamps.

It is my understanding that the operation was set up as a common
manufacturing plant with assigned jobs.  That is just the way I worked
for this man.  For about six months I was a crown assembler, just putting
the crowns for the tops of lamps together 8 hours a day.  After that I
was a copper foiler and months later I achieved the honorable position of
tracing the patterns onto the glass for the boss to cut!

Hooo boy!

Gary Dodge

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 12:27:53 -0800 Shirley Balloch
<balloch@netbridge.net> writes:
>I must confess, the only history, I know about Stained Glass is from
>bungi posts.
>But I have a question:
>Tiffanity developed foil work, right?  They cut the copper sheets
>themselves, right?
>Did it have adhesive on it, or did they simple wrap it and it stayed 
>in
>place like aluminum wrap does? And did they have different 
>thickness???
>It couldn't have been as nice as venture tape is!
>They must have had people who cut glass and people who foiled glass.?
>Hope you don't mind, it is just easier to ask you, than go down to 
>the
>library and look it up.
>Thanks in advance 
>Shirley B
>----
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>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 18:54:39 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:59:28 +0000
Message-ID: <199902170152.UAA00829@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> Anyway, further on in her sight she mentioned that she did a restoration of a
> church window, but used foil instead of lead when she reconstructed it.....for
> added strength (not wishing to start any debate in THAT direction)  Is this
> truly considered restoration?

Nope. Restoration is to restore to the window's original condition as 
intended by the artist (the original artist) insofar as possible.

Albert
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:56:33 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.15633.0>
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In a message dated 2/16/99 6:59:59 PM, dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:

>Unfortunately there is only so much that one can convey in a response,
>then to make matters worse a bit of creative snipping can change the
>meaning. [...]

Creative snipping? I was just doing what I always do, following the rules of
"Netiquette" and not quoting the other guy's message lock, stock, and barrel.

As for the rest of it, well............ Let's all chalk it up to "We all speak
English, but we don't speak the same language" and go back to bustin' on Dale
Tiffany (whose name did get taken in vain on bungi a while back) or some other
"safe" target.

Now where did I put that fire extinguisher?


				-------Sparks, with apologies if I struck a few too many
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 19:23:49 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:30:19 -0800
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it is called laminating........MANY of his windows had mutli-layered glass
to get the effect he wanted (or the artist) some of the windows are reported
to have as many as 7 layers of glass.
I messed around with laminating the backs of some of the jewels I have used
in some of the dragonflies.
Certainly the foil was cut to width from sheets of copper to fit the
glass......they did not have machine rolled and relatively accurate pre-cut
foil.
Many of the early lamps had glass that was very muddy and quite translucent
as it was lit by a flame....Early bulbs were very dim and dense opalescent
glass would not transmit much of the DIM light. Layers of glass produced
effects that were not able to be obtained by a single thickness or color.
I have had my hands on some ORIGINAL shades and I MARVELED at the invention
and originality of them...but I LIKE the quality of MINE!!!  (YES I grind to
a light tight fit wherever it possible and use 3/16" foil on glass that is
thinner than Spectrum <no I do not use Spectrum for the Tiffany Shades>)
As for the strength of MY shades, over the past 18 years I have had some
damaged and even a few moderately CRUSHED or HOLED and the FOIL and SOLDER
still held and the non-crushed areas were still true to the original shape.
As I peeled off the foil on the broken pieces the foil on the "good" pieces
was adhered quite well! All of these were FULL FORM ODYSSEY. The worden
sectional ones are a bit trickier to assemble, and IMHO seem a bit at risk
at the seams if you do not take extreme care to get them to align
(grids)....
later, H


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 19:36:49 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:49:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.124953.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.124511.0@[207.126.97.2]>>
Organization: SBWSA
Precedence: bulk

Is this the 12 step program?  Are we to give them up cold turkey?  Inquiring
minds want to know.

Carol T

Family Account wrote:

> We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
> you there!
>
> Dorothy
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 19:51:11 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: balloch@netbridge.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:07:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.16714.0>
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On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:44:45 -0800 Shirley Balloch
<balloch@netbridge.net> writes:
>OK, next question.  Did they always use the adhesive?
>It boggles my mind.  I can't even imagine cutting copper foil to the
>size we use.  It has got to be worse than peeling an apple!
>Thanks for your quick reply.
>Shirley B
>
As far as I know they always used the adhesive although any trace of it
has long since disappeared in the original tiffany lamps.   Now all that
holds them together is the metal work.  (If you tap one on the side you
can now hear the glass rattle.) Good thing they didn't depend on the glue
to hold it together like some people today do!

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 19:59:43 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: Mosfunland@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:10:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.161032.0>
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Maureen,

You are correct.  That is called adulteration, not restoration.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 18:35:00 EST Mosfunland@aol.com writes:
>I had a ponderous moment as I browsed through that website that was 
>discussed
>a week ago.  The woman had alot of work displayed, somewhat a bit high 
>in
>price....
>
>Anyway, further on in her sight she mentioned that she did a 
>restoration of a
>church window, but used foil instead of lead when she reconstructed 
>it.....for
>added strength (not wishing to start any debate in THAT direction)  Is 
>this
>truly considered restoration?  I am just a basement breaker, the only 
>things I
>have restored are the projects I have managed to break...(big grin).  
>But in
>the truest sense of the word, I felt that she misrepresented her work. 
> Any
>other thoughts?
>
>Maureen 
>mosfunland@aol.com
>
>----
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>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 20:23:55 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:17:15 -0500
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Gary-

Have you ever sent us your bio?  Sounds like it would be very =

interesting!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 20:40:28 1999
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From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:26:59 -0500
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Just checking to make sure that "City Hall" has electricity and air
conditioning.
If so please sign me up!!
Goldpaws

Family Account wrote:
> 
> We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
> you there!
> 
> Dorothy
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 20:51:32 1999
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X-Path: sprintmail.com!MollysGlass
From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>, "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:28:32 -0600
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Dale Tiffany has a retail store in Long Beach, CA.  I visited it in October
and there are some beautiful lamps there.  Mind you the first time we drove
by there was a going out of business sign and great sales advertised and
then when I finally got back to investigate the sale was over and it was
business as usual.
Molly
-----Original Message-----
From: Vincent LaGreca <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 2:47 PM
Subject: Dale Tiffany?


>I walked through J.C. Penny's lamp department recently and saw 16"
dragonfly
>lamps made by Dale Tiffany on sale for $225.00.  Whatever the merits of
>where and who the labor force was, the lamps were well made with extremely
>consistent solder lines.  The solder lines looked as if they could of been
>done with robotics.  Does this technology exist?  If so where?
>
>Does anyone know where Dale Tiffany is from and where these lamps are made?
>Tiffany & Company has their corporate headquarters about five miles from my
>home.  I don't think they are a part of him else the price would be more
>like $22,225.
>
>TIA
>
>Ciao
>
>Vic
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 20:57:45 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: RAGS Site
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:16:52 -0500
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I thought RAGS had been around for about a year... I know a couple of
retailers who tried it and came back to bungi.  It's because we're such a=

smart bunch... and polite, too, by most list standards! ;-)

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 21:05:20 1999
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From: CWWSLW@aol.com
To: weaver51@teleport.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:12:59 EST
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In a message dated 2/16/99 8:12:40 PM Central Standard Time,
weaver51@teleport.com writes:

<< to put it delicately...........BULLSHIT!
 He is of oriental descent.......
 Many years ago I had some communication with the company.
 At that point is was in Moonachie, NJ.
 
 Also, if their work looks good, take a look at mine!
 check out the archives for some earlier post directed toward this subject!
 enjoy, H >>

Dear "H"'

I am currently looking at a catalog of Dale Tiffany's. I am personally quite
impressed with his works. I guess that means I must be some sort of fly, as I
am attracted to his "Bullshit." The catalog states that all products are
assembled in the U.S.A to the "Highest standards." I am aware that standards
are different to each artist, and I think it is not your station to pass
judgment upon him.
By the way....
I did not know that being of oriental descent was a degradation!

Susan
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 21:16:43 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:16:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.171656.0>
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I would consider that kind of a repair purely unethical!  Yikes... it
makes my skin crawl.  I hate to even imagine what Julie Sloan or
any other restoration expert would say about that kind of procedure.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 21:21:04 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:17:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.171712.0>
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Gee, what a shame... and here I thought I had all these potential =

apprentices on bungi!  Guess I'll have to import... Elisabeth, =

you'll have to bring along one of your students.  No grinders in the
Greer Studios until you really learn to cut glass well!  Period. End of
discussion from my shop.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 21:27:31 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:52:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.175249.0>
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Howard mentioned something in his last post that explained
something about his technique I've been wondering about since
he re-joined bungi.  Howard, you have often stated that grinding
is essential to good foil adherence and subsequent structural
integrity of your lamps, no?  I, and numerous others, have long
maintained that the foil is only a temporary measure employed
strictly to give the solder a hold on the glass... its purpose after
soldering is completely unimportant and useless.  You mentioned
in your last post that all your pieces fit together tightly (speaking
of lamps, of course.)  Well, all our pieces fit together so that the
solders runs down between the glass and results in a "heart"
much as lead is constructed.  That is why we don't depend on
the foil for strength.... the soldered "lead" we create takes care
of strength, and the foil becomes superfluous.  On the other hand,
a good glue bind on your foil is essential to keep the lamp together.
Wonder how many years that glue on the foil will last.... in our
semi-arid Colorado climate, not very long.  Just my thoughts, =

once again.  As an added thought, remember the point of using
foil shears to cut out a kerf in your pattern is to allow for a
bit of a gap between glass pieces as well as to accomodate the
slight thickness of the foil on each edge of glass.  Make sense?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/   =

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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:52:45 -0500
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Laminating??  You mean "plating", right?  Laminating implies
the use of glue, and, ugh, let's not even go in that direction...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 22:03:37 1999
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To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:55:42 EST
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Albert,

This brings to mind a project I'm currently working on. A large Victorian
panel well over 100 yrs old. Total came failure, about 5% of the glass had to
be matched (in various spots throughout the piece) Otherwise all the rest of
the original glass was thoroughly cleaned (100 yrs of paint and other mung),
and a total re-leading is underway. Restoration, or Refabrication ? I lean
toward Refabrication,  but on the other hand, all work done was absolutely
necessary to put the piece back, as closely as possible, as none of the old
lead was reusable. What do you think?

As always, I'll look forward to your usual learned response.

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, Ca.
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 22:13:15 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 23:57:43 -0500
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2/16/99 4:42 PM Dani Greer GreerStudios@compuserve.com

>Gary Dodge, you are a very smart man.  Alot of folks would
>be wise to pay attention to what you have to say.
>
Yes, he is! I have had some invaluable advice from Gary.
Suzanne

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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
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Subject: Lead Question
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:54:36 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.135436.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
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Hi all,

I'm conveying a question from someone who has become quite persistent
with me and I have no clue as to how to even answer her. Here is her
question and if anyone can answer I would surely appreciate it.

Question:
Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
like to do boxes with lead.



Thanks,

Pam



--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 23:31:12 1999
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From: Paula Nelson <pjnelson@glassdogstudio.com>
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 00:42:42 -0600
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Did the bungi snap, or did I fall off... it's been *real* quiet. 


Paula Nelson  ICQ #1245141
http://www.glassdogstudio.com/uitland.htm

The Glass Dog Studio (708) 715.GLAS (4527)
http://www.glassdogstudio.com/TGDS.htm

"It's not the cannon on the playground; it's that the 
children have found shells for them" 

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 16 23:55:00 1999
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From: "Shakeel" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: First tools
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:15:49 +0800
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The Delphi Stained Glass not only have a "Starter Kit" they also have 25%
off on your first order. If you really select a complete set it works out
to very good savings really.

I tried it long ago and I know it.

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Shakeel Abedi
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313
-----Original Message-----
From: ATF Distribution Center-K. See <atf@socent.org>
To: Jennifer Frisbee <jenfrisbee@usa.net>; bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 12:21 AM
Subject: Re: First tools


>Hi Jennifer,
>Try to take advantage of Delphi Stained Glass for your grinder purchase;
they offer 25% off your first order. address: delphiglass.com
>Welcome to bungi
>K See
>
>Jennifer Frisbee wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the advice.  I think you are right...I was getting a bit
ahead of myself.  I think I'm becoming a tool-junkie just like my husband!
>>
>> The reason I brought up the saw and grinder bit is due to the Powerkits
system we had seen in the Inland catalog.  Since both of us do a good deal
of craft work (my husband builds puppets and marionettes), we thought that
it might be a good investment.  However, for my stained glass work right
now I really don't need the saw at all.  The grinder, however, really
helped my last piece come together (a small kaleidoscope with a lot of
little pieces)...so I may bite the bullet and invest in one soon.
>>
>> Well...thanks again....back to the practicing board!
>>
>> Jen Frisbee - newbie extraordinaire!
>>
>> ____________________________________________________________________
>> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at
http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
>> ----
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>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 00:04:42 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Mosfunland@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:29:41 -0800
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>>Anyway, further on in her sight she mentioned that she did a restoration
of a
church window, but used foil instead of lead when she reconstructed
it.....for
added strength (not wishing to start any debate in THAT direction)  Is this
truly considered restoration?  I am just a basement breaker, the only things
I
have restored are the projects I have managed to break...(big grin).  But in
the truest sense of the word, I felt that she misrepresented her work.  Any
other thoughts?
Maureen <<

The window in question can be seen at http://www.stainedglassart.com. It is
stated to be a 100 year old window, 30 " in diameter installed in a church
in NJ. It obviously started out as a quality window and would seem to have
stood the test of 100 years. Restoration price $4500.00.

I will start with a flat statement, " Changing a window from leaded to
foiled can in no way be considered restoration." The reason given for this
change is that the "artist" felt that the window would be stronger for being
foiled.

Mr. Tiffany leaded his windows as did everyone else 100 years ago. Foil was
for 3-D items such as lamps. I know of no major studios that would foil a
church window then or now. The reason most often given for leading windows
is that leaded method allows a window to expand and contract with changes in
temperature. As far as strength goes, a window is as strong as the frame and
the iron or steel rebar used to support it. As a general rule of thumb bebar
is used every 18"s in at least one plane.

Foiled windows seem to be an outgrowth of the craft movement in the US.
Perhaps foiling major windows will catch on but I doubt it. The inflexable
construction method would seem to insure self destruction in all but the
most mild cliamets. Small foiled windows that are interior hangings are
likely to find a continuing market. They are easy to produce and have design
freedoms that are not readily adapted to classic leaded work.

Let the debate begin, Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 03:35:28 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Lead Question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:42:47 +0000
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At 21:54 16/02/99 -0800, Pamela wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>I'm conveying a question from someone who has become quite persistent
>with me and I have no clue as to how to even answer her. Here is her
>question and if anyone can answer I would surely appreciate it.
>
>Question:
>Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
>like to do boxes with lead.
>
Yes - at least in UK there is.
We dont sell much of it but do stock it.  I imagine if your friend contacted
her nearest supplier they could get it in for her.
EliZabeth
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 04:05:22 1999
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Subject: fume traps
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 06:19:58 EST
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I am about to solder my first piece at home (slow progress due to the flu) and
have a little area in the workshop.  Will be taking a trip to WC at the end of
the month and I am considering getting the Inland fume trap.  Is that the only
thing on the market? I have looked through several sites and see nothing else.
But Sears has a hepa 99.9999% air purifyer.  Are they the same function as the
fume trap? if so which is better? And what else is available?

And what about the pieces fitting too close?  How close is too close.  I use
the foil shears (and a grinder :-) and my pieces look pretty close (tight) But
what is considered Tight fitting pieces?

Thanks guys....
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:08:16 1999
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Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:00:30 +0000
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At 22:16 16/02/99 -0500, Dani wrote:
>I thought RAGS had been around for about a year... I know a couple of
>retailers who tried it and came back to bungi. 

Yes, but is not just a maillist but an association of retail stained glass
suppliers.
I know many of its members are also on bungi (as I am) which caters for a
different need in the stained glass world.
I cant understand why on some of the bbs there is such antagonism towards
RAGS - but not against IGGA or ASGLA or other such associations.
Maybe it is a North American thing?
EliZabeth
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:23:52 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:21:20 +0000
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> As far as I know they always used the adhesive although any trace of it
> has long since disappeared in the original tiffany lamps.   

Thin copper sheet was cut into strips (some people do this even now) 
and those were coated with beeswax, which acted as the adhesive. 
Obviously, during soldering the beeswax would burn away and the 
solder (as has been noted here) became the supporting structure.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:38:35 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
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> I will start with a flat statement, " Changing a window from leaded to
> foiled can in no way be considered restoration." The reason given for this
> change is that the "artist" felt that the window would be stronger for being
> foiled.

You're absolutely right, Bob. Restoration is "to restore," not to 
change. Then there are the glass painters who "improve" the faces 
they've been asked to restore, which is completely and absolutely 
wrong.


> Mr. Tiffany leaded his windows as did everyone else 100 years ago.

On the other hand, I don't think that's correct at all. There are 
thousands upon thousands of windows in place in this country that 
were created and installed 100 or more years ago. All were leaded. 
Tiffany Studios (not L.C. himself ... he merely owned the company) 
for the most part leaded their windows, too. Some windows 
incorporated both lead and copper foil, it's true, but it's incorrect 
to say that Tiffany Studios used only copper foil.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:39:18 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:21:19 +0000
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> The catalog states that all products are
> assembled in the U.S.A to the "Highest standards." I am aware that standards
> are different to each artist, and I think it is not your station to pass
> judgment upon him.

"Assembled" being the operative word. U.S. customs rules allow shades 
(for example) to be manufactured outside the U.S. and imported 
entire. Same for the bases. Take a shade out of the crate and put it 
on the base, spin the finial onto the top to hold the shade on the 
base and you've not only "assembled" the lamp, but you're then 
allowed to apply a "Made in U.S.A." sticker. Neat, huh?


>>  He is of oriental descent.......
> I did not know that being of oriental descent was a degradation!

Susan, I don't think Howard was being degrading in his comment. He 
merely observed that the owner of Dale Tiffany is of oriental descent 
and (in the context of the conversation about the company) that the 
owner couldn't (or most likely isn't) related in any way to Louis C. 
Tiffany. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:49:34 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:21:19 +0000
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> This brings to mind a project I'm currently working on. A large Victorian
> panel well over 100 yrs old. Total came failure, about 5% of the glass had to
> be matched (in various spots throughout the piece) Otherwise all the rest of
> the original glass was thoroughly cleaned (100 yrs of paint and other mung),
> and a total re-leading is underway. Restoration, or Refabrication ?

Restoration, if care is being taken to preserve every bit of original 
glass, none of the glass is being grozed to make it "fit" into the 
new cames, any glass being replaced is being carefully stored away 
just in case something can be done with it by future restorers, no 
original paint is being removed as a result of the cleaning.

The lead cames have a limited lifespan, depending on how and when 
they were manufactured. Some cames hundreds of years old are fine 
even today, most are not. Some cames less than a hundred years old 
are in terrible shape. Each window is unique, so thoughtful judgment 
has to be taken on each aspect of its restoration. First do no harm. 
Then don't second-guess the artist's original intent or (god forbid) 
change the window to suit your personal vision of what the window 
"should have been." It's amazing sometimes what some people will do 
and call it "restoration."

Sounds to me like you have the right idea, as well as respect for the 
window and its creators while you preserve it for future generations.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 05:51:37 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:21:19 +0000
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> to put it delicately...........BULLSHIT!
> He is of oriental descent.......

Yep. Korean if I remember correctly. Also important to know is that 
L.C. Tiffany left nobody behind to perpetuate his name. He had three 
daughters, whose married names are obviously not Tiffany. <smile> He 
had a brother, who left no offspring either, since he was barking 
mad and had other things on his mind, so to speak.

"Dale Tiffany" is a company name. The company imports decorative 
lamps manufactured in Asia. My take on its quality? Junk.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:10:38 1999
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> I was trying to remember where I had read that it was not decided if  LCT
> had invented the copper foil method.

It was patented by Simon Bray, 1886. Tiffany (to repeat myself) was a 
businessman. Trained as an artist, sure, but he built (so far as is 
known) only one stained glass window (a bad design, in my opinion), 
an autonomous panel that was eventually installed in his house on 
Long Island. Everything else ... windows, lamps, desk items, lighting 
fixtures, the works ... was designed and built by his employees. He 
ran the company and was its salesman. His clientele was made up of 
the wealthy classes who hired him to decorate their homes. To refer 
to a lamp or window as "a Tiffany" and think that L.C. had anything 
to do with it as far as design or fabrication is an error, no matter 
what you might read in some books. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:11:41 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
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> I don't tin the outside.  I like just the foil plain. 
> So how do you feel about that.  Do you consider this unfinished 
work?

But you tin the inside? Is the foil unsoldered everywhere? If 
unsoldered and untinned, I would certainly consider it unfinished. 
Not only that, it'll fall apart when the adhesive expires, since its 
usefulness is intended to be temporary.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:16:42 1999
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Subject: RE: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:28:49 -0500
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Leave it to Howard to put the proper slant on things. I have seen several 
lines of glass with one Tiffany name or another on them. Seems several 
places use the name to sell otherwise mundane work at a higher price. Just 
my 2 cents of course.

Linda

 to put it delicately...........BULLSHIT!
He is of oriental descent.......
Many years ago I had some communication with the company.
At that point is was in Moonachie, NJ.

Also, if their work looks good, take a look at mine!
check out the archives for some earlier post directed toward this subject!
enjoy, H


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:30:34 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:45:29 -0500
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Shirley, I believe that a piece is finished when you stop working on it.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 9:03 PM
Subject: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?


>Ok, settle this controversy.
>I make a small heart.  It is made of five pieces.  The center is open.
>The center top of the heart has cloth ribbon in a bow and dangling down
>from the bow (suspended by twoglued ribbon behind the bow)two glass
>hearts.
>I don't tin the outside.  I like just the foil plain.  Now I sell these
>for $12.95.  Meaning I can't afford the extra work.
>And I will admit, that the foil get ripped in the course of going to
>many shows.
>But for someone who buys one and puts it on wall or in window, that is
>not a real problem.
>So how do you feel about that.  Do you consider this unfinished work?
>Thanks in advance.
>Shirley B
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:32:43 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:54:18 +0000
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Hi Pam et al,

I  t h i n k  I know what you mean
and if I think I know, then the answer is, yes there is.
Normally used for lanterns .
Have a couple of lengths of it myself.
But as far as I know, it's obtainable in any size your heart desires, 
as long as it is in 1/4 inch face width.
>From whence in USA I do not know (our friends at WC ?)
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Pam B-T wrote:
 I'm conveying a question from someone 
who has become quite persistent with me and I have no clue as to how 
to even answer her. Here is her question and if anyone can answer I 
would surely appreciate it.

Question:
Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
like to do boxes with lead.


----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:41:31 1999
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Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:54:18 +0000
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Dear All,
It doesn't surprise me that the lead was re-unusable!
I wouldn't expect it to be after 100 years+.
The glass it self may last forever, but lead certainly does not.
As part of the restoration task I consider to be re-leading with 
fresh lead.
In any case, you will find it almost impossible to re-solder on such 
old lead, the solder just refuses to "key in" over the joints. Also 
you will find that it tends to crumble and disintegrate. Another 
aspect is that the cement has deterioated and will need replacing 
also.
 It's not uncommon for a leaded panel to be totally stripped 
down cleaned and re-leaded after 100 - 150 years. Is it THIS which 
you call "refabrication"?? If it is, make sure you trace out the 
design to scale on paper, before you disturb the glass; also that you 
carefully number the pieces (and their equivalent spaces on your 
drawing).
 Restoration work is a slow and painstaking task and I am 
not quite sure how experienced you are. You might possibly  do well 
reading up about restoration work, before you tackle the task (no 
insult intended). Julie Sloan's book - of which Albert will be able 
to give you details - is an admirable tome.

"Refabrication" work to me is, when someone hands me a collection of 
plastic bags full of bits and tell me to do something with from what 
I can glean of the sorry mess inside (not dissimilar from what Glenna 
has just completed).
Good Luck!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK 

Richard wrote:
This brings to mind a project I'm currently working on. A large Victorian
panel well over 100 yrs old. Total came failure, about 5% of the glass had to
be matched (in various spots throughout the piece) Otherwise all the rest of
the original glass was thoroughly cleaned (100 yrs of paint and other mung),
and a total re-leading is underway. Restoration, or Refabrication ? I lean
toward Refabrication,  but on the other hand, all work done was absolutely
necessary to put the piece back, as closely as possible, as none of the old
lead was reusable. What do you think?

As always, I'll look forward to your usual learned response.

----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:45:53 1999
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Of Cours Ma'm!
Yes, Ma'm!
Certainly Ma'm!
At Once, Ma'm!
I promise I will learn, Ma'm!
E 'n T in UK

Also sprach Dani:
Gee, what a shame... and here I thought I had all these potential =

apprentices on bungi!  Guess I'll have to import... Elisabeth, =

you'll have to bring along one of your students.  No grinders in the
Greer Studios until you really learn to cut glass well!  Period. End of
discussion from my shop.

----
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http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 06:58:50 1999
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To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: "Happy.exe" Trojan Horse Virus NG
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 08:15:21 -0500
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Two of the bungi members have unknowingly sent me the Happy.exe virus 
again. Happily, I knew not to execute it so I'm not infecting anyone. 
Ghads, I felt like I had vd the last time. Yuck.

Whoever sent me the web page for getting rid of the virus, please post it 
again. I have lost it and our computer weenies don't think we are bright 
enough to handle such technical jargon, so their advice is to call them for 
help.

Newbies, do not open the file "happy.exe"

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 07:15:20 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:57:12 -0600
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studio@stainedglass.co.uk wrote:
> 
> At 22:16 16/02/99 -0500, Dani wrote:
> >I thought RAGS had been around for about a year... I know a couple of
> >retailers who tried it and came back to bungi.
> 
> Yes, but is not just a maillist but an association of retail stained glass
> suppliers.
> I know many of its members are also on bungi (as I am) which caters for a
> different need in the stained glass world.
> I cant understand why on some of the bbs there is such antagonism towards
> RAGS - but not against IGGA or ASGLA or other such associations.
> Maybe it is a North American thing?
> EliZabeth
> Bournemouth Stained Glass
> http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

>From everything I have seen, RAGS is great!  I wish all stained glass
retailers adheared (oh darn wish I had spellcheck, Ed) to the standards
by which RAGS sets an example.  

Not all retailers are all that friendly OR helpful.  I would be happy to
go into any RAGS store, assuming they are as advertised.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 07:47:26 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
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Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:13:29 -0500
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Hi Dani,

No, we're still here and going strong.  I come to Bungi to try and be
helpful and have a little fun and I use RAGS to help me become a stronger
retailer of glass and supplies, but there are small dues and if they're
not a serious retailer or they truly believe that they already know
EVERYTHING, I guess that could push them out.  I've learned a lot about
the retail end that would bore the pants off the Bungi crowd.

Also gives me direct contact with important industry guests who visit
RAGS from time to time.  Our last guest was Don Able from Morton
Glassworks.  We've had reps from Spectrum, Ed Hoy's etc.

Oh, and we've got one or two who left but couldn't stay away.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 22:16:52 -0500 Dani Greer
<GreerStudios@compuserve.com> writes:
>I thought RAGS had been around for about a year... I know a couple of
>retailers who tried it and came back to bungi.  It's because we're 
>such a=
>
>smart bunch... and polite, too, by most list standards! ;-)
>
>Best,
>
>Dani Greer

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 07:53:09 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: ptap@pacifier.com
Content-Type: text/plain
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:18:26 -0500
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Pam ,

I've got about two or three strips of 90 deg lead that I got at bendheim
about 15 years ago....now?

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 21:54:36 -0800 Pamela Burns-Tappan
<ptap@pacifier.com> writes:
>Hi all,
>
>I'm conveying a question from someone who has become quite persistent
>with me and I have no clue as to how to even answer her. Here is her
>question and if anyone can answer I would surely appreciate it.
>
>Question:
>Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
>like to do boxes with lead.
>
>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Pam
>
>
>
>--
>*********************************
>
>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:08:46 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: CWWSLW@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:16:57 -0500
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The catalog states that all products 
>are
>assembled in the U.S.A to the "Highest standards." 

Hmmmm....interesting choice of words ASSEMBLED in the USA....Glass cut in
Mexico ASSEMBLED IN USA?


>I did not know that being of oriental descent was a degradation!

Maybe not bad to be Oriental, but kinda unlikely to be Tiffanys son.
>
>Susan


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:13:22 1999
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Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
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My name is Luanne and I am a grindaholic. I'll see you at the meeting.
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:30:59 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:41:17 +0000
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> I cant understand why on some of the bbs there is such antagonism towards
> RAGS - but not against IGGA or ASGLA or other such associations.

Probably because some of the RAGS founders posted angry, defensive 
messages that implied (or even stated outright) that retailers are 
somehow "owed a living," that they shouldn't have to be competitive, 
that manufacturers and distributors should "protect" them by refusing 
to sell to the retailers' "hobbyist" customers.

It's an old story in the recent renaissance of stained glass 
popularity that many (if not most) retailers were once hobbyists 
themselves who now want to "close the door" on anyone who comes after 
them, develops a sincere (even fervid) interest in the medium, and 
grows beyond "hobbyist" status. On the other hand, it's 
understandable if a retailer has actually made the investment in 
stocking glass, tools and other supplies (though many don't, saying 
instead, "I can order that for you!") that he or she would want to 
protect that investment and try to curtail others doing exactly what 
they themselves have done.

There's nothing at all wrong about deciding to run a retail shop, 
teach lessons and sell supplies. What's odd is that some retailers 
think that they should be "protected" from others doing the same 
thing. If the manufacturers and distributors actually *did such a 
thing (and they don't, for the most part), it's arguable that certain 
anti-trust laws would kick in.

After looking at the RAGS site, though, it appears that the 
organization means to promote its retailer members as caring, supply- 
and education-oriented partners with their customers, which is an 
excellent contribution to the glass world's growth and popularity.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:38:44 1999
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Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
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>  Restoration work is a slow and painstaking task 

There's a very good description (for the client) of what comprises 
stained glass restoration, what's involved and so on, at
http://cummingsstudio.com

Click on "Planning a Conservation or Restoration Project?"

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:53:21 1999
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Subject: RAGS site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:43:46 -0500
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Hi -

I just went to the RAGS site and viewed work from some of our friends. 
Nice, all of it! Pam, did you do the website?

Arnold, loved "Mary Ann & Me." What I need to know is, which one is Mary 
Ann and which one is you? :) I made that unicorn (big one) as my very 
first piece after classes and it has a special place in my heart. It 
proved to me that "I could do it."

Suzanne

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 08:53:24 1999
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On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Brian Shepherd wrote:
>           
			(in re: Tiffany shades)

> The edge of the glass could be quite easily seen. This
> was inside the shade admittedly but how did the foiling work if it didn't
> wrap around the edge?
> 
> I concluded in the end that the glass must have been grozed to an angle so
> that the foil did in fact wrap but didn't overlap the face of the glass.
> 
> As even without grinders (BG) the edges must have been perpendicular most of
> the time so does this would mean that the glass would have to always be
> grozed to give the 'nose' for the foil to wrap around?
> 
> It would also appear that the copper must have been trimmed to fit neatly
> along the edge after foiling!

Young Lenore (mingey@aol) and I managed to squeak into the huge
Tiffany exhibition at NYC's Metropolitan Museum of Art on the very last
day, thanks to a heads-up from bungi. 

One of the things I spent the most time scrutinizing was the partially
finished lamp on a form. Whether this was preserved in that state by some
forward thinking historian I can't say. After all, John Wanamaker (famed
department store magnate)'s office was preserved exactly as he left it
when he dropped dead, for well over 70 years! 

Let us presume though, that what I saw was a recreation, as accurate as
surviving details would allow. The form was made of wood, a full shade,
not pieces to be joined at the last minute. The  copper sheets were much
thicker than any foil I've ever seen. The foil indeed did not appear to
wrap around the glass, it just stood inbetween. That's the mysterious
part. How do you create H came if the the foil was more like a straight
line between the pieces? I suspect there was another step not represented
on the form, and I hope a Real Historian (TM) will jump up and carry on
from here! 

All the best,

Mary

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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: RE: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Wed Feb 17 06:59:29 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.43729.0>
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IMHO Restoration is the repair of an object to it's original state or as
close as possible. 
Refabrication is the rebuilding of an object without regard to the original
material.

The best example of the difference came from a building contractor. In a 100
year old house the original walls are wood lathe and plaster. If a hole is
patched with wood lathe and plaster the wall is restored; if it is fixed
with a piece of sheet rock or wire lathe and plaster it is repaired; if the
entire wall is ripped out and replaced with sheet rock it is refabricated.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com
		

		I would consider that kind of a repair purely unethical!
Yikes... it
		makes my skin crawl.  I hate to even imagine what Julie
Sloan or
		any other restoration expert would say about that kind of
procedure.

		Best regards,

		Dani Greer
		Greer Gallery & Studios
		

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">IMHO Restoration is the repair of an =
object to it's original state or as close as possible. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Refabrication is the rebuilding of an =
object without regard to the original material.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The best example of the difference =
came from a building contractor. In a 100 year old house the original =
walls are wood lathe and plaster. If a hole is patched with wood lathe =
and plaster the wall is restored; if it is fixed with a piece of sheet =
rock or wire lathe and plaster it is repaired; if the entire wall is =
ripped out and replaced with sheet rock it is refabricated.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would consider that kind of a repair =
purely unethical!&nbsp; Yikes... it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">makes my skin crawl.&nbsp; I hate to =
even imagine what Julie Sloan or</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">any other restoration expert would =
say about that kind of procedure.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Best regards,</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Dani Greer</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Greer Gallery &amp; Studios</FONT>
<BR>
</P>
</UL></UL>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:13:03 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Happy99.exe web site 
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 07:31:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb16.233156.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

Thanks for answering my lead question everyone :)

Here is the Happy99.exe website for the fix.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3652/SKA.HTM

Pam



--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:23:12 1999
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
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Subject: RE: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed Feb 17 07:04:24 1999
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Elizabeth 

I'm with you. Am ready and eager to learn (at least try) new techniques.
I've also noticed since signing on with this group my cutting and soldering
skills have improved.
Some improvement is due to practice but most is due to the
comments/criticisms read here.

Vic M. 
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		
		Of Cours Ma'm!
		Yes, Ma'm!
		Certainly Ma'm!
		At Once, Ma'm!
		I promise I will learn, Ma'm!
		E 'n T in UK

		Also sprach Dani:
		Gee, what a shame... and here I thought I had all these
potential =

		apprentices on bungi!  Guess I'll have to import...
Elisabeth, =

		you'll have to bring along one of your students.  No
grinders in the
		Greer Studios until you really learn to cut glass well!
Period. End of
		discussion from my shop.

		----
		As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
		North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
		http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
		----
		----
		For subscription changes, please mail to:
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Elizabeth </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I'm with you. Am ready and eager to =
learn (at least try) new techniques.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I've also noticed since signing on =
with this group my cutting and soldering skills have improved.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Some improvement is due to practice =
but most is due to the comments/criticisms read here.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"></A>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Of Cours Ma'm!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yes, Ma'm!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Certainly Ma'm!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">At Once, Ma'm!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I promise I will learn, Ma'm!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">E 'n T in UK</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Also sprach Dani:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Gee, what a shame... and here I =
thought I had all these potential =3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">apprentices on bungi!&nbsp; Guess I'll =
have to import... Elisabeth, =3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">you'll have to bring along one of your =
students.&nbsp; No grinders in the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Greer Studios until you really learn =
to cut glass well!&nbsp; Period. End of</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">discussion from my shop.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As my grandmother said &quot;...there =
is only nobility of mind&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">North Lights Stained Glass - =
homepage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.=
htm</A> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:27:01 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:30:17 -0500
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Carol Tombro wrote:
> 
> Is this the 12 step program?  Are we to give them up cold turkey?  Inquiring
> minds want to know.
> 
> Carol T
> 
> Family Account wrote:
> 
> > We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
> > you there!
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > ----

i know i'm not giving it up. most of my work envolves either really
small pieces or very curvy pieces. i can cut pretty accurately, but as
anyone knows if your a hair off it can through off the entire project.
and sometimes you don't want to risk grozing.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:28:41 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:32:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.53219.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.16714.0>>
Precedence: bulk

dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 16 Feb 1999 16:44:45 -0800 Shirley Balloch
> <balloch@netbridge.net> writes:
> >OK, next question.  Did they always use the adhesive?
> >It boggles my mind.  I can't even imagine cutting copper foil to the
> >size we use.  It has got to be worse than peeling an apple!
> >Thanks for your quick reply.
> >Shirley B
> >
> As far as I know they always used the adhesive although any trace of it
> has long since disappeared in the original tiffany lamps.   Now all that
> holds them together is the metal work.  (If you tap one on the side you
> can now hear the glass rattle.) Good thing they didn't depend on the glue
> to hold it together like some people today do!
> 
> Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
> 
> http://www.dodgestudio.com
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would imagine that the bees wax would have melted out pretty quickly
due to the lamps being on alot. i wonder how they dealt with that. maybe
that's why the glass has a wax sheen--doubt it though.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:48:11 1999
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Subject: Re: RAGS Site
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could it be because the RAGS answer to most question is "Go to your local
retailer"
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 09:58:54 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:39:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.53947.0>
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Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Gee, what a shame... and here I thought I had all these potential =
> 
> apprentices on bungi!  Guess I'll have to import... Elisabeth, =
> 
> you'll have to bring along one of your students.  No grinders in the
> Greer Studios until you really learn to cut glass well!  Period. End of
> discussion from my shop.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> ----


it really depends on what your definition of using a griner is. when i
first used it i cut huge grooves (1/2-3/4" deep), as a relief cut for
clouds. of course now i can cut those in my sleep (and i do). my cuts
are very accurate. but it may have a flare, or a little bit to remove,
or it may be a hairline off. the grinder was really never meant to
remove a ton of glass (never to be used like a woodworkers disc sander). 

and a grozed edge, in general, looks awful on the edge of say, a
suncatcher. lumpy, bumpy, eww.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 10:11:43 1999
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Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:44:46 -0500
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Precedence: bulk

Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Howard mentioned something in his last post that explained
> something about his technique I've been wondering about since
> he re-joined bungi.  Howard, you have often stated that grinding
> is essential to good foil adherence and subsequent structural
> integrity of your lamps, no?  I, and numerous others, have long
> maintained that the foil is only a temporary measure employed
> strictly to give the solder a hold on the glass... its purpose after
> soldering is completely unimportant and useless.  You mentioned
> in your last post that all your pieces fit together tightly (speaking
> of lamps, of course.)  Well, all our pieces fit together so that the
> solders runs down between the glass and results in a "heart"
> much as lead is constructed.  That is why we don't depend on
> the foil for strength.... the soldered "lead" we create takes care
> of strength, and the foil becomes superfluous.  On the other hand,
> a good glue bind on your foil is essential to keep the lamp together.
> Wonder how many years that glue on the foil will last.... in our
> semi-arid Colorado climate, not very long.  Just my thoughts, =
> 
> once again.  As an added thought, remember the point of using
> foil shears to cut out a kerf in your pattern is to allow for a
> bit of a gap between glass pieces as well as to accomodate the
> slight thickness of the foil on each edge of glass.  Make sense?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> www.igga.org/greer/   =
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


solder will be drawn in to any sized joint due to capilary action. like
soldering copper pipes for your water. the adhesion for the foil is
important. if you ere to compare a suncatcher made with 5/32" foil vs
one that has 1/4" the 1/4" (with more glue), will be stronger. also if
the solderlines is what's holding in the pieces, why wrap the outside
edges with foil at all? because the pieces would fall out. 

i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
slide around.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 10:32:18 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: toby@northlights.co.uk, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:09:58 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.16958.0>
Precedence: bulk

Again, thanks to you, and all who respond. This is the first large scale
restoration work I've done. Thankfully, I was fortunate enough to have read
Ms. Sloan's book, about a month before I was asked to do this. I'm
additionally pleased to report that I did make a complete rubbing of the piece
before disassembly. That rubbing is the guide for the releading. The piece is
26 x 80, and has about 500 pieces. Yes, it is going slowly, but I'm enjoying
the challenge. The companion piece, which is equally filthy, but has no glass
missing, is twice as long. I will wait a bit before starting that one, and
will certainly adjust the price. 

Since we talk about pricing a lot, I thought I'd share this with you. I quoted
my friend, who owns the property these windows repose in, $ 875.00 for the
complete job, including removal and reinstallation. My glass retailer, who
says my skill level is equal to the task, told me he wouldn't touch that
project, (he's seen pictures) for less than $1200.00, not including removal
and installation. I pass this along just to add to the ongoing pricing dialog.
For me, the opportunity to restore the piece( no painted surfaces) at my pace,
and to be compensated even somewhat fairly, goes into the learning matrix, and
I'm quite happy to have the learning opportunity. Yes, the owner knows this is
my largest restoration to date, but interestingly, no one in his area (Central
Coast) would even consider taking this on, especially the removal of the
window. Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but I looked at it and said "why not."

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, Ca
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 10:52:23 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Lead Question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:48:35 -0500
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Pamela Burns-Tappan wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm conveying a question from someone who has become quite persistent
> with me and I have no clue as to how to even answer her. Here is her
> question and if anyone can answer I would surely appreciate it.
> 
> Question:
> Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
> like to do boxes with lead.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pam
> 
> --
> *********************************
> 
> Pamela Burns-Tappan
> Executive Director
> The Stained Glass Artists
> http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists
> 
> Moswood Mountain Limited
> http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
> http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i think they make 90 degree zinc. i would never recomend lead for boxes.
besides the fact it would look butt ugly. it would pose a constant lead
contamintion danger. on a panel it's ok, because you don't touch it
much, unless you lick it. box your always going to touch a box. the lead
levels in solder should'nt really hurt you unless you sucked on it.

---Mike Savad


-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 11:06:56 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:51:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.55151.0>
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SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I am about to solder my first piece at home (slow progress due to the flu) and
> have a little area in the workshop.  Will be taking a trip to WC at the end of
> the month and I am considering getting the Inland fume trap.  Is that the only
> thing on the market? I have looked through several sites and see nothing else.
> But Sears has a hepa 99.9999% air purifyer.  Are they the same function as the
> fume trap? if so which is better? And what else is available?
> 
> And what about the pieces fitting too close?  How close is too close.  I use
> the foil shears (and a grinder :-) and my pieces look pretty close (tight) But
> what is considered Tight fitting pieces?
> 
> Thanks guys....
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the inland fume trap is garbage. hakko makes one that is larger, though
i don't know how much better it works. and it's very expensive. get
yourself the hepafilter. i've seen them in other studio's and they do a
pretty good job. and be sure to have a fan of some kind to keep the
vapors from going up your nose.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 11:07:23 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net, glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:30:38 EST
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For what it's worth, my attorney, who used to be a deputy US Attorney,
specializing in labor and trade matters, was heavily involved in the whole
mess regarding "slave" labor in areas which are US territories, or
protectorates, and so the contract "slavers" were putting "Made in USA"
stickers on the junk which is the work product of abject misery. In some
cases, the Feds were able to stop the practice, but Mark tells me the practice
is more widespread than you'd think.  Another practice I've seen employed (and
I think I've seen this on the bogus Tiffany stuff), is to state the product is
constructed of "American made glass" or some such nonsense. Although I know
I'm somewhat acerbic about this, I simply tell people that I wouldn't be
comfortable having things in my home that I knew to be the product of slave
labor. No matter what the cost /perceived value relationship (hate to say
this, but for a lot of people, the stuff we call crap, looks pretty good, and
places this "type" of art / craft within reach dollarwise), the fact that it
is sweatshop stuff would somehow diminish the joy of having it.

Richard
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 11:47:16 1999
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The truth is out. The E-tour is really a meeting of GA. (Grindaholics
Anonymous).
		

		My name is Luanne and I am a grindaholic. I'll see you at
the meeting.
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 11:55:45 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:15:31 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.11531.0>
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Albert is much more tactful than I am, and has imparted his wisdom to you
which is on the mark.

Just by ELAPSED TIME to build a shade, do any of YOU really think a shade of
many pieces( and in most cases not true to the ORIGINAL) that is touted to
be "assembled" in USA that sells for $199.00 which includes all material,
labor, handling, billing, delivery and at LEAST two markups, is actually
done here by a craftsperson for a LEGAL minimum wage (around $6.50 or so).
There may be factories in the states where indentured servitude for a below
minimum wage is practiced. My earlier subtle terminology of BULLSHI* still
applies. As for quality, that can be ascertained by looking at a lot of
shades by many different artisans. As for artistic value, I pass no
judgement, BUT>>>>>>>>>>Quality of glass, usage of color and smoothness and
blends will make one stand out from another with technique being somewhat
equal.
I get offered chances to "fix"  imported shades from time to time and kinda
get a feel for poor quality in construction as well as artistic
interpretation.
just a bit of rambling............H
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 13:42:25 1999
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The truth is out. The E-tour is really a meeting of GA. (Grindaholics
Anonymous).
		

		My name is Luanne and I am a grindaholic. I'll see you at
the meeting.
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My name is Luanne and I am a =
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 14:09:33 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:15:31 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.11531.0>
Precedence: bulk

Albert is much more tactful than I am, and has imparted his wisdom to you
which is on the mark.

Just by ELAPSED TIME to build a shade, do any of YOU really think a shade of
many pieces( and in most cases not true to the ORIGINAL) that is touted to
be "assembled" in USA that sells for $199.00 which includes all material,
labor, handling, billing, delivery and at LEAST two markups, is actually
done here by a craftsperson for a LEGAL minimum wage (around $6.50 or so).
There may be factories in the states where indentured servitude for a below
minimum wage is practiced. My earlier subtle terminology of BULLSHI* still
applies. As for quality, that can be ascertained by looking at a lot of
shades by many different artisans. As for artistic value, I pass no
judgement, BUT>>>>>>>>>>Quality of glass, usage of color and smoothness and
blends will make one stand out from another with technique being somewhat
equal.
I get offered chances to "fix"  imported shades from time to time and kinda
get a feel for poor quality in construction as well as artistic
interpretation.
just a bit of rambling............H
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 14:29:36 1999
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From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: latest Glass Craftsman articles
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:17:21
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
Precedence: bulk

Nice pictures of some of Oddy's work, along with a good article on framing
using lead came + steel rod.

regards,
charlie
phx, az
--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 14:49:46 1999
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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:21:50 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.52150.0>
Precedence: bulk

Brian,

There is a gallery in Winter Park , Fla. called the Morse Gallery of Art. My
husband and I visited there some years ago.  It has many many pieces of
Tiffany's work , lamps , panels, paintings an Favrile glass and pottery.
They also have a large piece of a lamp that was rescued from the remains of
his home in New York that was destroyed by fire many years ago. Regardless
how damaged the piece is still amazing as you can see how it is constructed
inside and out. The copper and sometimes brass foil (although I'm not sure I
would call it foil as it's much thicker than what we are used to) is wraped
around each piece. Sometimes there is more than one layer of glass, one
behind another, to get the effect he wanted. Again these are each foiled. If
you get the opportunity to go and see his work , I'd take it in a heart
beat. Winter Park is on the northern outskirts of Orlando. It's address is
133 East Welbourne Ave.  They also have a "Spider Web" lamp there. They said
it is so heavy it takes two people to lift it on o the pedistal.......
    Check it out if you get a chance..........Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:05 PM
Subject: How did he do it?


>Hello
>
>I was trying to remember where I had read that it was not decided if  LCT
>had invented the copper foil method. In moments of deep uncertainty I get
my
>books out and have a browse. I am very fortunate to have a copy of Neustad
>(bought in much more pecunious days!) and looking at page 14 I noticed that
>the glass was 'higher' than the solder - there was no bead - in fact it was
>quite the reverse! The edge of the glass could be quite easily seen. This
>was inside the shade admittedly but how did the foiling work if it didn't
>wrap around the edge?
>
>I concluded in the end that the glass must have been grozed to an angle so
>that the foil did in fact wrap but didn't overlap the face of the glass.
>
>As even without grinders (BG) the edges must have been perpendicular most
of
>the time so does this would mean that the glass would have to always be
>grozed to give the 'nose' for the foil to wrap around?
>
>It would also appear that the copper must have been trimmed to fit neatly
>along the edge after foiling!
>
>Given the reservoir of information on the bungi can anybody tell me if that
>is correct. If it is then our modern methods are really quite different
and
>in more ways than just glued foil!
>
>Maybe I've got that all wrong - somebody tell me - I won't argue!
>
>I didn't find the quote about who invented foiling either!
>
>Best regards
>
>
>BtB
>
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 15:06:25 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:12:26 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.51226.0>
References: <<199902171434.JAA07535@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

> It's an old story in the recent renaissance of stained glass 
> popularity that many (if not most) retailers were once hobbyists 
> themselves who now want to "close the door" on anyone who comes after 
> them, develops a sincere (even fervid) interest in the medium, and 
> grows beyond "hobbyist" status.

*My* local SG retailer says..." *You* can't make money making stained
glass".  Hmmmmm....hate to disagree but I already do....and I'm not a
pro..just think what could happen *when* I get *really good*! ;o)

In other words, they dont seem to want me to make money.  I dont get
it~!

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 16:54:14 1999
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From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: safely purchasing over the internet
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:37:49
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990217103749.00940490@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
Precedence: bulk

<snip>
>i may actually start selling things online. i'm trying to figure out
>what things would sell, at what prices (figuring slightly higher to
>offset online costs). though i'm not sure what the best pricing method
>would be. i figure that someone could send me the check for the whole
>thing. then i'd send them the project. it's just a weird trust thing. i
>dunno how to work the whole thing out. 
>
>since this is going out to bungi too... what so you guys think is the
>best money transfer method? i figure i'd set up a seperate page else
>where (geocities does'nt allow that kind of thing for free). right now
>it's just the money thing that's messing me up.
>

there is at least one escrow exchange service that can be used for internet
selling. i know of some people who have used it for high ticket items like
stereo amps, etc. basically the money is sent to them, they tell you they
have it, you send the item, when the delivery is made they send you the
money. they get a cut (usually around 5% with some minimum fee) of the
purchase price.

i believe ebay sellers use something similar to this.

i've done some buying/selling over the internet without using an escrow
service, but i'm not sure i'd deal for $5000 on an email handshake. the key
to this is getting references and checking them out. if they have none, or
won't give you a phone number and valid address, then it's too dodgy a deal.

regards,
charlie
phx, az
--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:14:54 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re:  Lead Question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:45:58 EST
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In a message dated 2/17/99 2:01:46 AM, ptap@pacifier.com wrote:

>Question [passed on from a friend]:
>Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
>like to do boxes with lead.

I've seen it advertised in "Stained Glass" magazine. Don't know who makes it,
but I think it's the same company that makes multi-channel lead for plating as
well as other funky shaped lead cames like the ones Frank Lloyd Wright used.


					---------Sparks
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:16:33 1999
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From: "Pawel Karaszkiewicz" <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2
Subject: come back
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:06:15 +0100
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After a long break caused by total computer failure I am back on the =
list
I realised that I missed an interesting discussion on conservation and  =
restoration.
Pity

Pawel

Pawel Karaszkiewicz
zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl


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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:38:33 -0600
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jak N Wolfy <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>; bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: How did he do it?


>Brian,
>
>There is a gallery in Winter Park , Fla. called the Morse Gallery of Art.
My
>husband and I visited there some years ago.  It has many many pieces of
>Tiffany's work , lamps , panels, paintings an Favrile glass and pottery.
>They also have a large piece of a lamp that was rescued from the remains of
>his home in New York that was destroyed by fire many years ago. Regardless
>how damaged the piece is still amazing as you can see how it is constructed
>inside and out. The copper and sometimes brass foil (although I'm not sure
I
>would call it foil as it's much thicker than what we are used to) is wraped
>around each piece. Sometimes there is more than one layer of glass, one
>behind another, to get the effect he wanted. Again these are each foiled.
If
>you get the opportunity to go and see his work , I'd take it in a heart
>beat. Winter Park is on the northern outskirts of Orlando. It's address is
>133 East Welbourne Ave.  They also have a "Spider Web" lamp there. They
said
>it is so heavy it takes two people to lift it on o the pedistal.......
>    Check it out if you get a chance..........Jackie
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
>To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Tuesday, February 16, 1999 8:05 PM
>Subject: How did he do it?
>
>
>>Hello
>>
>>I was trying to remember where I had read that it was not decided if  LCT
>>had invented the copper foil method. In moments of deep uncertainty I get
>my
>>books out and have a browse. I am very fortunate to have a copy of Neustad
>>(bought in much more pecunious days!) and looking at page 14 I noticed
that
>>the glass was 'higher' than the solder - there was no bead - in fact it
was
>>quite the reverse! The edge of the glass could be quite easily seen. This
>>was inside the shade admittedly but how did the foiling work if it didn't
>>wrap around the edge?
>>
>>I concluded in the end that the glass must have been grozed to an angle so
>>that the foil did in fact wrap but didn't overlap the face of the glass.
>>
>>As even without grinders (BG) the edges must have been perpendicular most
>of
>>the time so does this would mean that the glass would have to always be
>>grozed to give the 'nose' for the foil to wrap around?
>>
>>It would also appear that the copper must have been trimmed to fit neatly
>>along the edge after foiling!
>>
>>Given the reservoir of information on the bungi can anybody tell me if
that
>>is correct. If it is then our modern methods are really quite different
>and
>>in more ways than just glued foil!
>>
>>Maybe I've got that all wrong - somebody tell me - I won't argue!
>>
>>I didn't find the quote about who invented foiling either!
>>
>>Best regards
>>
>>
>>BtB
>>
>>
>>----
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>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:42:19 1999
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From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:30:04
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<snip>
>solder will be drawn in to any sized joint due to capilary action. like
>soldering copper pipes for your water. the adhesion for the foil is
>important. if you ere to compare a suncatcher made with 5/32" foil vs
>one that has 1/4" the 1/4" (with more glue), will be stronger. also if
>the solderlines is what's holding in the pieces, why wrap the outside
>edges with foil at all? because the pieces would fall out. 

because, when the bead on the outside is tied mechanically to the solder
seams on the inside, the glass is then held into a channel.

>i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
>it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
>providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
>slide around.

i don't think so. i think the act of soldering is really forming solder
came with the iron. this is a mechanical reinforcement, and glue, whilst
initially mechanical, will degrade from the heat of the iron or exposure to
air. ever put a box in the attic sealed with packing tape? at least in
phoenix, the tape will last a matter of weeks at most.

regards,
charlie
phx, az
--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:51:41 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:45:00 +0000
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> i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
> it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
> providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
> slide around.

Do you have some reference -- a book, a practicing professional -- 
you could give us on that?

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:57:10 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:45:00 +0000
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> *My* local SG retailer says..." *You* can't make money making stained
> glass".  Hmmmmm....hate to disagree but I already do....and I'm not a
> pro..just think what could happen *when* I get *really good*! ;o)
> 
> In other words, they dont seem to want me to make money.  I dont get
> it~!


I disagree, too. Anyone who tells you that is just full of ... well, 
Howard said it best. <grin>

There's lots of money to be made in any craft, as long as you take it 
seriously, become a good craftsman, do you work well, don't just kick 
out pattern-book stuff, create your own unique work, etc. Anyone can 
be the next Tiffany.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 17:59:15 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Subject: Re: Another question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:02:24 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.18224.0>
References: <<1999Feb16.44556.0@?>>
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Shirley
You can use an old technique which was common in Scotland at the turn of
the century.
        In the large black areas, rather than flooding the area with
solder, cut a piece of thin copper sheet to fit the area.  Solder it to
the surrounding foiled pieces.  If you want to patina the solder lines
other than copper, tin the piece and then it will accept the patina in
the same way the rest of the solder beads do.

Steve

In message <1999Feb16.44556.0@?>, Shirley Balloch
<balloch@netbridge.net> writes
>I have been going through old Glass Pattern Quarterly trying to get
>motivated and I came across this pattern.
>It is a cherub looking angel.  Chin on arms with wings behind only.
>The magazine has this pattern in the fold out.  It is to be made into a
>22 inch square frame.
>
>The enlarged pattern has large black areas between the wing pieces up by
>the face.  My question is: does this represent pure solder?  And if so,
>what does this do to the strength of the over all project?
>It is the Fall 1998 issue.
>Thanks in advance,
>Shirley
>B
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:06:50 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:19:21 +0000
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In message <1999Feb16.124511.0@?>, Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
writes
>We'll be meeting every third Thursday in the basement of city hall.  See
>you there!
>
>Dorothy
>
>----
Anyone willing to set up a GA (Grinders Anonymous) group?

:-)  ;-) ;-)
-- 
Steve Richard (who once worked in Interlibrary Loans)
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:18:10 1999
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From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: CWWSLW@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:33:58 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.183358.0>
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Dear Susan
        I disagree entirely.  Howard is recognised as one of the very
best lamp makers.  He *does* know.  And can express his judgement very
accurately
        I'm afraid that you cannot trust the statement in the
pseudonymous Dale Tiffany's catalogue.  I am told (don't have personal
knowledge) that what is assembled to the highest standards in the USA is
the base to the shade.

Steve

In message <1999Feb17.31259.0@?>, CWWSLW@aol.com writes
>In a message dated 2/16/99 8:12:40 PM Central Standard Time,
>weaver51@teleport.com writes:
>
><< to put it delicately...........BULLSHIT!
> He is of oriental descent.......
> Many years ago I had some communication with the company.
> At that point is was in Moonachie, NJ.
> 
> Also, if their work looks good, take a look at mine!
> check out the archives for some earlier post directed toward this subject!
> enjoy, H >>
>
>Dear "H"'
>
>I am currently looking at a catalog of Dale Tiffany's. I am personally quite
>impressed with his works. I guess that means I must be some sort of fly, as I
>am attracted to his "Bullshit." The catalog states that all products are
>assembled in the U.S.A to the "Highest standards." I am aware that standards
>are different to each artist, and I think it is not your station to pass
>judgment upon him.
>By the way....
>I did not know that being of oriental descent was a degradation!
>
>Susan
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:21:14 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 10:48:05 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.2485.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne wrote:

I just went to the RAGS site and viewed work from some of our friends.
Nice, all of it! Pam, did you do the website?

Nope I didn't do the web site. Blue Sky Partnership a division of
Alice's Stained Glass did it. The developer is Alice Zimmerman and I
think she did a great job! I know she has been working very hard to get
it up and running. If it would have been myself I think I would be a
couple thousand dollars richer right now  :)

Pam



--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:30:45 1999
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From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:23:10 -0500
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Albert,
I agree with you.  There is more than enough room for everyone.  There are
gas stations on every corner, and grocery stores on every other corner,
hairdressers, you name it all seem to find enough people to frequent their
establishments instead of the next guys,  and I don't understand some retail
store folks separatist take on things.  But I must say I have seen em come
and go here in Jacksonville, someone that offers competitive prices,
customer service (maybe remembering you name after spending a $1000.00 in
their store would be nice, offering a good deal to long time customers once
in a while will keep em coming back)....  All of this said from the person
that started out taking lessons from one of those defunct retail
outlets......  I am a very loyal customer, and I will drive 100-200 miles
any day of the week to go to a good retail store to find what I want.  I
don't have a clue what "rags" does and since I am not a retailer, don't
really care.  (someday maybe)  But I would venture a guess that they are
guarded in sharing thier ideas even in that group.  It just seems like
everyone is afraid of their business being stolen.  Good customers can't be
stolen.  Price, customer service, friendly people if not the owner (hope the
owner is friendly also), good inventory, willingness to get the glass you
really want with their next order of they don't have it in stock, and great
glass talk is my dream retail store.

Linda Jo Tiffany :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: RAGS Site


>
>> I cant understand why on some of the bbs there is such antagonism towards
>> RAGS - but not against IGGA or ASGLA or other such associations.
>
>Probably because some of the RAGS founders posted angry, defensive
>messages that implied (or even stated outright) that retailers are
>somehow "owed a living," that they shouldn't have to be competitive,
>that manufacturers and distributors should "protect" them by refusing
>to sell to the retailers' "hobbyist" customers.
>
>It's an old story in the recent renaissance of stained glass
>popularity that many (if not most) retailers were once hobbyists
>themselves who now want to "close the door" on anyone who comes after
>them, develops a sincere (even fervid) interest in the medium, and
>grows beyond "hobbyist" status. On the other hand, it's
>understandable if a retailer has actually made the investment in
>stocking glass, tools and other supplies (though many don't, saying
>instead, "I can order that for you!") that he or she would want to
>protect that investment and try to curtail others doing exactly what
>they themselves have done.
>
>There's nothing at all wrong about deciding to run a retail shop,
>teach lessons and sell supplies. What's odd is that some retailers
>think that they should be "protected" from others doing the same
>thing. If the manufacturers and distributors actually *did such a
>thing (and they don't, for the most part), it's arguable that certain
>anti-trust laws would kick in.
>
>After looking at the RAGS site, though, it appears that the
>organization means to promote its retailer members as caring, supply-
>and education-oriented partners with their customers, which is an
>excellent contribution to the glass world's growth and popularity.
>
>Albert
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
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Subject: Re: RAGS site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:16:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.91627.0>
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Suzanne my dear, if you have to ask which is Mary Anne and which is me then
I really screwed up.  This is about the third or forth piece I made, about 8
or so years ago.  Thanks for liking it.  I "lifted" the figures, credit
given......

RAGS is a great group of people.  Sure, we have self interest; but we know
that the future and growth of the art depends on creating public interest.
One of our prime purposes is to help, answer questions, educate and learn
how we can do a better job for the artist, amateur or professional.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: suzy@comcat.com <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: glass bungi line <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 12:06 PM
Subject: RAGS site


>Hi -
>
>I just went to the RAGS site and viewed work from some of our friends.
>Nice, all of it! Pam, did you do the website?
>
>Arnold, loved "Mary Ann & Me." What I need to know is, which one is Mary
>Ann and which one is you? :) I made that unicorn (big one) as my very
>first piece after classes and it has a special place in my heart. It
>proved to me that "I could do it."
>
>Suzanne
>
>----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:34:40 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: esavad@home.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Lead Question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:13:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.31353.0>
References: <<36CAE4D3.3C3F@home.net>>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
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M. Savad wrote:

> >
> > Question:
> > Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
> > like to do boxes with lead.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Pam
> >
> > --
> >
>
> i think they make 90 degree zinc. i would never recomend lead for boxes.
> besides the fact it would look butt ugly. it would pose a constant lead
> contamintion danger. on a panel it's ok, because you don't touch it
> much, unless you lick it. box your always going to touch a box. the lead
> levels in solder should'nt really hurt you unless you sucked on it.
>
> ---Mike Savad

Mike could you do me a favor and go to the message board and post to her.
It's the first message and I think the 3rd one down as well.
http://www.InsideTheWeb.com/messageboard/mbs.cgi/mb82532

If this technique is something that is not recommended then maybe she should
be aware of that.

Thanks,

Pam

>
>

*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:36:41 1999
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Subject: Fwd: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:14:54 -0500
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My apologies to Albert Lewis, I sent you this by mistake!

For Bungi:

On this vein, I received a repair recently on a panel bought in Mexico. 
It was foiled with a thin lead for trim. When I took some of the border 
pieces out, noticed that the copper foil around these pieces did not wrap 
all the way around. The foil started and ended about 1/2" in on the 
outside edge.

Is this standard practice? I've always foiled all the way around every 
piece. Maybe in Mexico they are saving on the cost of foil? 

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:46:59 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Elisabeth! was:support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:58:34 -0500
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The idea of the divine Miss E. acting as my apprentice
is total absurdity!!  The woman is a teacher of long standing
who has trained hundreds if not thousands of students in
stained glass.  You won't be sweeping any floors here, doll.... =

you'll be working right along side us getting ready for a =

couple of big shows.  Now stop being an imp!  You're =

confusing all the bungi newcomers.  Start promoting the E-Tour!
There are lots of folks on bungi who could benefit from your
teaching and workshops while your in the US.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:53:41 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Hi yall...
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:07:16 -0500
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I have been reading the discussions on grinders and wonder how everyone
feels about the soldering tip that is half-moon shaped that is supposed to
create a better  soldering bead.? This is one of my weak points.  Also the
different lead contents of the solder.....Are there better uses for each of
these? Thanks for the help...Abbie

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 18:53:42 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:52:42 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.125242.0>
References: <<1999Feb17.55151.0>>
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> 
> the inland fume trap is garbage. hakko makes one that is larger, though
> i don't know how much better it works. and it's very expensive. get
> yourself the hepafilter. i've seen them in other studio's and they do a
> pretty good job. and be sure to have a fan of some kind to keep the
> vapors from going up your nose.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 

I have a little fan that has a clip on it, it is clipped to the window
seal (?) (bark bark) blows across my work bench...and hopefully out the
other window.  I do a lot of edge tapping soldering.  Think I hold it
too close to my face when I do that, as I can feel the heat on my face
and smell it.  Maybe I need those old lady magnifying glasses.  

Probably, what is worse, is that I find soldering very relaxing, and I
sort of trance out and sing, and more than likely suck lots of fumes.  I
notice if I do alot of soldering at once, the next day, I am congested,
and coughing.

Hepafilters arent exactly cheap!

T Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:05:10 1999
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From: Don495@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:58:29 EST
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<< believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
 it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
 providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
 slide around. >>
Mike
What about the old roll of foil I have that lost it sticky a long time ago.
Doesn't the same thing happen to the glue on foil when in used in a project.
Don 
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:08:48 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>, "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:26:07 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.22267.0>
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Hello

Thanks for the reply.

I expected the foil to be thicker. It would need to be in order to hold it's
shape without glue or so I thought until some people started saying LTC DID
use glue!

Ok - if each piece is foil wrapped (even the plated ones) then why does that
illustration in Neustadt (page 14) seem to show glass edges with the solder
surface lower that the glass?

It's a puzzle! I don't understand!

BtB


>Brian,
>
>There is a gallery in Winter Park , Fla. called the Morse Gallery of Art.
My
>husband and I visited there some years ago.  It has many many pieces of
>Tiffany's work , lamps , panels, paintings an Favrile glass and pottery.
>They also have a large piece of a lamp that was rescued from the remains of
>his home in New York that was destroyed by fire many years ago. Regardless
>how damaged the piece is still amazing as you can see how it is constructed
>inside and out. The copper and sometimes brass foil (although I'm not sure
I
>would call it foil as it's much thicker than what we are used to) is wraped
>around each piece. Sometimes there is more than one layer of glass, one
>behind another, to get the effect he wanted. Again these are each foiled.
If
>you get the opportunity to go and see his work , I'd take it in a heart
>beat. Winter Park is on the northern outskirts of Orlando. It's address is
>133 East Welbourne Ave.  They also have a "Spider Web" lamp there. They
said
>it is so heavy it takes two people to lift it on o the pedistal.......
>    Check it out if you get a chance..........Jackie



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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:09:32 1999
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From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <ptap@pacifier.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Lead Question
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:49:31 -0000
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Pam

I don't believe it - something I can get in England that you don't get in
the US?

I can obtain lantern calm from a supplier off the shelf! (Sorry Elisabeth -
you know who I mean!)

It is quite hard and I would think rather too massive to look good on boxes
though.

Best regards

BtB

:
>>Hi all,
>>
>>I'm conveying a question from someone who has become quite persistent
>>with me and I have no clue as to how to even answer her. Here is her
>>question and if anyone can answer I would surely appreciate it.
>>
>>Question:
>>Is there a 90 degree lead? I really prefer leading to foil and would
>>like to do boxes with lead.
>>






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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:24:35 1999
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From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:42:46 -0000
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Howard

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I understand about plating (if that's what you mean) but what I'm saying
is that the pictures in Neustadt (page 14) seem to show unwrapped glass or
is it my imagination?

All the areas shown would have to be plated because it all seems pretty
level.

Lif is full of mysteries!

Best regards

BtB


>it is called laminating........MANY of his windows had mutli-layered glass
>to get the effect he wanted (or the artist) some of the windows are
reported
>to have as many as 7 layers of glass.
>I messed around with laminating the backs of some of the jewels I have used
>in some of the dragonflies.
>Certainly the foil was cut to width from sheets of copper to fit the
>glass......they did not have machine rolled and relatively accurate pre-cut
>foil.
>Many of the early lamps had glass that was very muddy and quite translucent
>as it was lit by a flame....Early bulbs were very dim and dense opalescent
>glass would not transmit much of the DIM light. Layers of glass produced
>effects that were not able to be obtained by a single thickness or color.
>I have had my hands on some ORIGINAL shades and I MARVELED at the invention
>and originality of them...but I LIKE the quality of MINE!!!  (YES I grind
to
>a light tight fit wherever it possible and use 3/16" foil on glass that is
>thinner than Spectrum <no I do not use Spectrum for the Tiffany Shades>)
>As for the strength of MY shades, over the past 18 years I have had some
>damaged and even a few moderately CRUSHED or HOLED and the FOIL and SOLDER
>still held and the non-crushed areas were still true to the original shape.
>As I peeled off the foil on the broken pieces the foil on the "good" pieces
>was adhered quite well! All of these were FULL FORM ODYSSEY. The worden
>sectional ones are a bit trickier to assemble, and IMHO seem a bit at risk
>at the seams if you do not take extreme care to get them to align
>(grids)....
>later, H
>
>


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:26:31 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:44:11 -0500
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Sorry Luann.... no one will every believe that Elisabeth is
a grindaholic. You might as well say Toby is a cat.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:44:13 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: BOBDU@prodigy.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 16:46:47 EST
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In a message dated 2/17/99 12:05:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
BOBDU@prodigy.net writes:

<< Foiled windows seem to be an outgrowth of the craft movement in the US.
 Perhaps foiling major windows will catch on but I doubt it. The inflexable
 construction method would seem to insure self destruction in all but the
 most mild cliamets >>

I visited a glass artist in St. Ignace, Quebec ( it's pretty cold there) and
tried 
out all your arguments on him.  In fact, he had a foiled frieze around his
house.  He
was very distainful of lead, and claimed his foil weathered just fine.

Personally I like leaded glass and I still believe it will withstand the tests
of time
better than foil.  On the other hand it may take a few hundred years to be
sure.

I might be up there this summer, I will check on it.
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 19:45:15 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:05:50 -0500
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No, a support group.  As in, it's okay, you don't have to give it up.

If anyone wants to start a 12 step program (and there have been perhaps 5 or 6
steps to date on the list), go ahead, but I won't attend.

Dorothy


Carol Tombro wrote:

> Is this the 12 step program?  Are we to give them up cold turkey?  Inquiring
> minds want to know.
>
> Carol T
>
>

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Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 18:00:08 
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>Maybe not bad to be Oriental, but kinda unlikely to be Tiffanys son.

I understood him to be a second cousin descendant with legal right to use the name...

Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:03:50 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:06:57 -0500
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Suzanne wrote:
> 
> >
> > the inland fume trap is garbage. hakko makes one that is larger, though
> > i don't know how much better it works. and it's very expensive. get
> > yourself the hepafilter. i've seen them in other studio's and they do a
> > pretty good job. and be sure to have a fan of some kind to keep the
> > vapors from going up your nose.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> 
> I have a little fan that has a clip on it, it is clipped to the window
> seal (?) (bark bark) blows across my work bench...and hopefully out the
> other window.  I do a lot of edge tapping soldering.  Think I hold it
> too close to my face when I do that, as I can feel the heat on my face
> and smell it.  Maybe I need those old lady magnifying glasses.
> 
> Probably, what is worse, is that I find soldering very relaxing, and I
> sort of trance out and sing, and more than likely suck lots of fumes.  I
> notice if I do alot of soldering at once, the next day, I am congested,
> and coughing.
> 
> Hepafilters arent exactly cheap!
> 
> T Suzanne


i also wear a filter of some kind. right know it's a heavy dust mask. i
seemed to have lost my other one. if you can find a welders dust mask
(has a small vent thing on it), that should work pretty well.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 99 18:10:34 
Message-ID: <199902180111.SAA07078@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

I examined one of the lamps I saw in 'The Mole Hole' by D. Tiffany Co.. and found to my 
surprise that the lamp was soldered only on the outside.. and there was still burnt wood 
ashes on the bottom side of the solder seams. So... I supposed that they used wood 
forms and floated solder all over everything and pried it off when it was cool... I may 
have come to the wrong conclusion of course.. I also noted that the solder did not cover 
all the copper foil and so when it was patinaed the bare copper foil (of course ) wasn't 
covered.. also the copper foil was not trimmed and so there was many an overlap.. A 
lot of effort was put into the lamp.. just can't understand why they can't take a little more 
time and do it right  ;-)

Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:12:22 1999
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: MD6868@aol.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:57:03 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.6573.0>
References: <<1999Feb17.16958.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Richard:  What a great way to approach a challenge.  Yes, you certainly
underquoted but at the sametime you recognize a challenge that will
increase your skills and promote your experience.  Way-to-Go!!

Peggy

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:12:34 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Suzanne" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: RAGS Site
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:17:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.151749.0>
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Suzanne, He might have been speaking from his point of view, not yours.
Perhaps the reason he doesn't do a good job for you is because he isn't
making money, he's bitter.  Most retailers do repairs, build to contract,
manufacture specialized items, bring in manufactured items, etc. just to
cover their operating nut...rent, phone, electricity, advertising, freight,
interest, etc....They can't do it, on materials alone.  The market is
limited. I don't feel sorry for them.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: RAGS Site


>> It's an old story in the recent renaissance of stained glass
>> popularity that many (if not most) retailers were once hobbyists
>> themselves who now want to "close the door" on anyone who comes after
>> them, develops a sincere (even fervid) interest in the medium, and
>> grows beyond "hobbyist" status.
>
>*My* local SG retailer says..." *You* can't make money making stained
>glass".  Hmmmmm....hate to disagree but I already do....and I'm not a
>pro..just think what could happen *when* I get *really good*! ;o)
>
>In other words, they dont seem to want me to make money.  I dont get
>it~!
>
>Suzanne
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:17:19 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:01:18 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.20118.0>
References: <<1999Feb17.54446.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

In message <1999Feb17.54446.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
>
>solder will be drawn in to any sized joint due to capilary action. like
>soldering copper pipes for your water. the adhesion for the foil is
>important. if you ere to compare a suncatcher made with 5/32" foil vs
>one that has 1/4" the 1/4" (with more glue), will be stronger. also if
>the solderlines is what's holding in the pieces, why wrap the outside
>edges with foil at all? because the pieces would fall out. 
>
>i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
>it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
>providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
>slide around.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
I can't agree Mike.  With your background, you must be aware of the
mechanical properties of impact adhesives in environments with widely
varying temperatures.  If the foil was a major structural part of the
project, there is no reason to continue to use solder.  We could just
use some more impact adhesive to join the foiled edges together.  In
fact, we could just glue the cut pieces of glass together, because it
would be just as strong as relying on the foil's adhesive.

Also, impact adhesives work better on two smooth surfaces than one or
two rough surfaces.  The total adhesion surface is what is important.
The amount of adhesive on the foil is not enough to go into the "pits"
caused by grinding.

IMO, of course
Steve
-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:29:11 1999
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From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "Pawel Karaszkiewicz" <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: come back
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 20:40:19 -0500
Message-ID: <199902180141.UAA22114@smtp.america.net>
Precedence: bulk

Welcome back Pawel.
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: Pawel Karaszkiewicz <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 8:21 PM
Subject: come back


>After a long break caused by total computer failure I am back on the =
>list
>I realised that I missed an interesting discussion on conservation and  =
>restoration.
>Pity
>
>Pawel
>
>Pawel Karaszkiewicz
>zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl
>
>
>----
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>


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 20:31:47 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:52:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.105253.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_022E_01BE5AA6.B9ADD200
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Bob E Duchesneau  wrote:

>Perhaps foiling major windows will catch on but I doubt it. The =
inflexible
>construction method would seem to insure self destruction in all but =
the
>most mild cliamets.=20

I do not understand the reasoning here.  I work a great deal with =
combination of materials where the different expansion/contraction rates =
of wood versus metal versus glass versus ceramic (etc...) is critical =
for the long term survival of a piece.  Yet I do not understand why this =
should apply to a comparison of cemented lead came versus well soldered =
copper foil. =20

I have never considered the coefficient of expansion of glass to be =
great enough to pay attention to (at least within normal climactic =
ranges).  The expansion/contraction of any metal (temperature) or wood =
(moisture) has always been of overriding concern in any analysis I have =
done.  The expansion and contraction of metal or wood is always so great =
that the glass coefficients might as well be zero for any analysis.

So we must be looking at the metal lines between the glass for the cause =
of any failure due to climate.  I do not see why either construction =
method would have a significantly different coefficient of expansion for =
these metal lines.  At normal climate temperatures the coefficient for =
lead came is pretty close to lead solder, otherwise all solder joints =
would eventually fail.  A finished copper foil joint is mostly lead =
solder, so I would think the same coefficients would apply.  I doubt the =
copper foil itself has much affect on the joint once it is soldered.  I =
have never seen a case where the copper foil de-laminated from the =
solder as would be the type of failure one would expect to see if the =
copper foil itself was the problem.

So we must now look at how the two methods differ as far as the metal =
join lines expanding and contracting around the individual pieces of =
glass.  If the copper foil was permanently glued to the glass with a =
brittle or rigid adhesive, I see how this might be a problem.  However, =
the discussion seem to have already determined the glues used in copper =
foiling either fail with the heat of soldering or soon thereafter =
because of climactic degradation.  So we are back to the idea the glass =
is essentially being held in the channel formed by the copper and solder =
which expands and contracts around the rigid glass.

So lets look at the putties and cements used in the came method.  I have =
never seen a putty or cement which did not become brittle and hard after =
several years.  In other words, the putty or cement in a came window =
must become the point of joint "failure" which would allow the metal =
came to expand and contract around the rigid glass.  In other words, the =
putty or cement is no longer flexible so it can not absorb the changes.  =


Every old came window I have ever restored indicates this theory to be =
correct.  In all cases I have worked on, the putty or cement is no =
longer rigidly attached to the glass, the came, or itself (i.e. it has =
fractured into many separate chunks).  In essence we are back to glass =
floating in a metal channel which expands and contracts around the =
glass.  The only substantial difference I see is the lead came method =
has some "gunk" (old putty or cement) in between the two which makes up =
for a bit of "looseness" in the joint so the glass does not rattle =
around to much.

I could perhaps see a difference between the two methods for highly =
textured glass.  The cement inside lead came might have more of a =
tendency to "fail" and allow the glass to move with temperature changes. =
 The foil method might have a tendency to have formed a rigid solder =
joint around a textural "knob" on the glass.  This might cause an area =
of rigidity which could conceivable cause catastrophic failure in that =
section of the piece.

Or perhaps the suggestion is that the heart of lead came is thick enough =
and the lead sot enough so it can "squish" between the pieces of glass =
as it expands and contracts?  Somehow I doubt it.  I would expect the =
added mass of metal cause by the heart of the came to actually make the =
force of expansion/contraction greater and override any ability of the =
softer lead to adjust.

So all in all, I do not see why a copper foil and solder window should =
fail before a lead came and solder window.  Perhaps I am missing =
something here.  Does anyone know if any company or person has done =
accelerated climactic stress tests comparing the two methods?

------=_NextPart_000_022E_01BE5AA6.B9ADD200
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#008080>
<DIV>Bob E Duchesneau&nbsp;<FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2> =
wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>&gt;Perhaps foiling major windows =
will catch on=20
but I doubt it. The inflexible<BR>&gt;construction method would seem to =
insure=20
self destruction in all but the<BR>&gt;most mild cliamets. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I do not understand the reasoning =
here.&nbsp; I=20
work a great deal with combination of materials where the different=20
expansion/contraction rates of wood versus metal versus glass versus =
ceramic=20
(etc...) is critical for the long term survival of a piece.&nbsp; Yet I =
do not=20
understand why this should apply to a comparison of cemented lead came =
versus=20
well soldered copper foil.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I have never considered the coefficient of expansion =
of glass=20
to be great enough to pay attention to (at least within normal climactic =

ranges).&nbsp; The expansion/contraction of any metal (temperature) or =
wood=20
(moisture) has always been of overriding concern in any analysis I have=20
done.&nbsp; The expansion and contraction of metal or wood is always so =
great=20
that the glass coefficients might as well be zero for any =
analysis.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So we must be looking at the metal lines between the =
glass for=20
the cause of any failure due to climate.&nbsp; I do not see why either=20
construction method would have a significantly different coefficient of=20
expansion for these metal lines.&nbsp; At normal climate temperatures =
the=20
coefficient for lead came is pretty close to lead solder, otherwise all =
solder=20
joints would eventually fail.&nbsp; A finished copper foil joint is =
mostly lead=20
solder, so I would think the same coefficients would apply.&nbsp; I =
doubt the=20
copper foil itself has much affect on the joint once it is =
soldered.&nbsp; I=20
have never seen a case where the copper foil de-laminated from the =
solder as=20
would be the type of failure one would expect to see if the copper foil =
itself=20
was the problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So we must now look at how the two methods differ as =
far as=20
the metal join lines expanding and contracting around the individual =
pieces of=20
glass.&nbsp; If the copper foil was permanently glued to the glass with =
a=20
brittle or rigid adhesive, I see how this might be a problem.&nbsp; =
However, the=20
discussion seem to have already determined the glues used in copper =
foiling=20
either fail with the heat of soldering or soon thereafter because of =
climactic=20
degradation.&nbsp; So we are back to the idea the glass is essentially =
being=20
held in the channel formed by the copper and solder which expands and =
contracts=20
around the rigid glass.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So lets look at the putties and cements used in the =
came=20
method.&nbsp; I have never seen a putty or cement which did not become =
brittle=20
and hard after several years.&nbsp; In other words, the putty or cement =
in a=20
came window must become the point of joint &quot;failure&quot; which =
would allow=20
the metal came to expand and contract around the rigid glass.&nbsp; In =
other=20
words, the putty or cement is no longer flexible so it can not absorb =
the=20
changes.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Every old came window I have ever restored indicates =
this=20
theory to be correct.&nbsp; In all cases I have worked on, the putty or =
cement=20
is no longer rigidly attached to the glass, the came, or itself (i.e. it =
has=20
fractured into many separate chunks).&nbsp; In essence we are back to =
glass=20
floating in a metal channel which expands and contracts around the =
glass.&nbsp;=20
The only substantial difference I see is the lead came method has some=20
&quot;gunk&quot; (old putty or cement) in between the two which makes up =
for a=20
bit of &quot;looseness&quot; in the joint so the glass does not rattle =
around to=20
much.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I could perhaps see a difference between the two =
methods for=20
highly textured glass.&nbsp; The cement inside lead came might have more =
of a=20
tendency to &quot;fail&quot; and allow the glass to move with =
temperature=20
changes.&nbsp; The foil method might have a tendency to have formed a =
rigid=20
solder joint around a textural &quot;knob&quot; on the glass.&nbsp; This =
might=20
cause an area of rigidity which could conceivable cause catastrophic =
failure in=20
that section of the piece.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Or perhaps the suggestion is that the heart of lead =
came is=20
thick enough and the lead sot enough so it can &quot;squish&quot; =
between the=20
pieces of glass as it expands and contracts?&nbsp; Somehow I doubt =
it.&nbsp; I=20
would expect the added mass of metal cause by the heart of the came to =
actually=20
make the force of expansion/contraction greater and override any ability =
of the=20
softer lead to adjust.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So all in all, I do not see why a copper foil and =
solder=20
window should fail before a lead came and solder window.&nbsp; Perhaps I =
am=20
missing something here.&nbsp; Does anyone know if any company or person =
has done=20
accelerated climactic stress tests comparing the two=20
methods?</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_022E_01BE5AA6.B9ADD200--

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 21:14:48 1999
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:48:39 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: esavad@home.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:48:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.124820.0>
Precedence: bulk


>if
>the solderlines is what's holding in the pieces, why wrap the outside
>edges with foil at all? because the pieces would fall out. 
>
>i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
>it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
>providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
>slide around.
>
>---Mike Savad

The reason to wrap the foil around the glass at all, is that it is the
bead, both on the front and the back that hold the glass in, not the
heart.  (And no-one here ever said different.)

If you have a wider bead it will hold the glass in tighter.  Just like
any clamping job you need the right clamp for the job.  Some jobs require
big fat clamps, some are best with little skinny clamps.  The problem is
that if the beads, both front and back hold the glass in, you'd better be
damn sure that you've got something pretty strong holding the front bead
connected to the back bead!   AND THAT'S WHY YOU CAN'T COUNT ON THE GLUE
STRUCTURALLY.

>
>-- 
Gary Dodge                          Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 21:29:08 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: esavad@home.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dear Albert and bungian historians
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 17:36:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.123627.0>
Precedence: bulk

Mike,

Most or all of the wax probably disappeared just from soldering the
shade.

>> As far as I know they always used the adhesive although any trace of 
>it
>> has long since disappeared in the original tiffany lamps.   Now all 
>that
>> holds them together is the metal work.  (If you tap one on the side 
>you
>> can now hear the glass rattle.) Good thing they didn't depend on the 
>glue
>> to hold it together like some people today do!
>> 
>> Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
>> 
>> http://www.dodgestudio.com
>> 
>
>
>
>i would imagine that the bees wax would have melted out pretty 
>quickly
>due to the lamps being on alot. i wonder how they dealt with that. 
>maybe
>that's why the glass has a wax sheen--doubt it though.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 21:38:12 1999
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X-Path: banet.net!gmanning
From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: support group for grinder users
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:08:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.18823.0>
References: <<1999Feb17.12550.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Maybe the slogan or name of  the group could be "Love Me Love My
Grinder."
Goldpaws

Family Account wrote:
> 
> No, a support group.  As in, it's okay, you don't have to give it up.
> 
> If anyone wants to start a 12 step program (and there have been perhaps 5 or 6
> steps to date on the list), go ahead, but I won't attend.
> 
> Dorothy
> 
> Carol Tombro wrote:
> 
> > Is this the 12 step program?  Are we to give them up cold turkey?  Inquiring
> > minds want to know.
> >
> > Carol T
> >
> >
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 22:45:51 1999
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X-Path: cyberportal.net!dmj
From: "Dean Johnson" <dmj@cyberportal.net>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: cutting vs. grinding
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:17:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.191749.0>
References: <<1999Feb15.61734.0>>
Precedence: bulk

This is my plug for Toyo's Thomas Grip cutter, which I, too, use and love,
plus a tip on scoring that I was given by my teacher.

The Thomas Grip does look a little like a crutch, about 4 inches high.  The
top is a plastic arch an inch long, curving gently upwards at one end.  You
rest the webbing and muscle between your thumb and first finger on this
arch.  The thumb and first two fingers hold the bottom of the cutter like a
pencil, just above the cutting wheel.

It is easy to apply pressure without having to keep a choke-hold in the
cutter body with your fingers to prevent slippage (as is necessary with
pencil-shaped cutters) and so reduces hand fatigue dramatically).

But best of all, the cutting head and wheel PIVOT underneath the "crutch"
top.  This means when scoring curved lines you can simply swivel your
fingers and the cutter head swivels with them- you don't have to swing your
whole wrist/arm around in a curve.  This helps to keep the cutter
perpendicular to the glass even on tight curves.

Here's the cutting tip:
In order to judge the amount of pressure needed for scoring a particular
glass (some are butter-soft and some rock-hard!) one should make a test
score and break, and look at the edge of the break.  There are tiny score
marks (little curved marks that run from the score line down toward the
bottom edge all along the score line) that represent the minute fractures
caused by the cutter wheel.  They should run about halfway through the
sheet's thickness.  If these little marks run all the way through they
provide opportunities for the break to veer away in a tangent from the score
line when you separate the pieces.  The scoring pressure was too heavy, so
lighten up.  If the marks don't make it halfway through the sheet, then they
don't provide enough incentive for the glass to break along the score,
another reason for bad breaks.  Use more pressure.

Hope this helps.  Has worked well for me.

Elizabeth Johnson
dmj@cyberportal.net

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 23:20:25 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: a lot of effort
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:15:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.141545.0>
Precedence: bulk

"lot of effort was put into the lamp.. just can't understand why they can't
take a little more
time and do it right  ;-)"

Candy

Just a simple observation, EXACTLY where was a lot of effort put in?????
Perhaps packing it for EXPORT!

No more energy expended by me on this subject,,,,,,,,,,,,
enjoy, H

----
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Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 23:32:29 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: ABBIE23875@prodigy.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:04:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.19447.0>
Precedence: bulk

Abbie,

If the tip you are referring to is the Weller "beading tip", I was not
crazy about it when I tried it but I've been doing it with the other tips
for so many years that that doesn't mean much.  You really need to see
what works best fory YOU.

The same with the solder.  Some folks love 60/40, others 50/50.  I feel
that the brand is as important as the grade.  For the record I use
Canfield 50/50 and have since the beginning.  Just switching to Canfield
60/40 makes me crazy because it behaves differently and my usual tricks
don't work.  It's mostly in what you get used to, although there are also
some hard and fast differences.  For building an edge bead the higher
viscosity of a 50/50 solder is definately and advantage.  For filling
large gaps a base of 50/50 with cooler melting 60/40 over top can help. 
Decorative solder work calls for a mix of solders.
On the other hand if your solder has a lot of dirt in it switch brands
pronto, but don't be fooled by the oxides that soldering too hot produce.
 Sometimes beginners work too hot and think the solder is dirty.  If you
clean the tip and immediately see it start to turn gold or purple
iridescent looking you need to turn your temperature control down.


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:07:16 -0500 "Evelyn C Mason"
<ABBIE23875@prodigy.net> writes:
>I have been reading the discussions on grinders and wonder how 
>everyone
>feels about the soldering tip that is half-moon shaped that is 
>supposed to
>create a better  soldering bead.? This is one of my weak points.  Also 
>the
>different lead contents of the solder.....Are there better uses for 
>each of
>these? Thanks for the help...Abbie
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 17 23:45:12 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany and MORE!
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:12:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb17.141247.0>
Precedence: bulk

Must be a lot of Tiffanies.........Dale, Polk Street, Paul Shalin just to
name 3 I personally know of.
If you go through a phone book, or perhaps even an ONLINE yellow pages, I
bet you will find a LOT more relatives!

weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 00:13:46 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!MD6868
From: MD6868@aol.com
To: charles_spitzer@stratus.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: restoration vs refabrication
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 01:25:11 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.62511.0>
Precedence: bulk

Charlie,
Thanks for your post. Only the smaller of the two, the 80 incher is out, at
the moment. I had the owner go to his local lumber yard and get a piece of
finish grade plywood cut to size, which they then painted white to match the
border, and so it sits. In the smaller jobs I've done (such as smaller
sidelights or door panels) I've cut Lucite to fit and reinstall the moldings. 

Currently the 80" panel is about 25% releaded. The design is intricate, and
contains many jewels. I'm doing the relead on a piece of 3/4 in plywood, which
is 3'x8', in close proximity to my two regular benches.

When the 160" panel comes out, I'll have to add another plywood panel and a
few more horses.

When I placed this severely bowed panel on the table, and cut the rebar
attachments, the panel went flat, in one sort of swift motion.

When I get the time to learn to use my scanner, I plan to send out before and
after pix,

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, Ca.
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 00:43:12 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Wed Feb 17 23:36:36 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.211436.0>
Precedence: bulk

i find it funny in the repairing of these lamps---when someone brings one in
to be repaired--i talk to them a while, find out what they paid for it
originally, then i quote them that much or more to fix it------we may not
make the original sale "in america"-but i can still make something
that sounded awful, but after a very long day, you know what i mean
debbie
-----Original Message-----
From: Howard <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?


>Albert is much more tactful than I am, and has imparted his wisdom to you
>which is on the mark.
>
>Just by ELAPSED TIME to build a shade, do any of YOU really think a shade
of
>many pieces( and in most cases not true to the ORIGINAL) that is touted to
>be "assembled" in USA that sells for $199.00 which includes all material,
>labor, handling, billing, delivery and at LEAST two markups, is actually
>done here by a craftsperson for a LEGAL minimum wage (around $6.50 or so).
>There may be factories in the states where indentured servitude for a below
>minimum wage is practiced. My earlier subtle terminology of BULLSHI* still
>applies. As for quality, that can be ascertained by looking at a lot of
>shades by many different artisans. As for artistic value, I pass no
>judgement, BUT>>>>>>>>>>Quality of glass, usage of color and smoothness and
>blends will make one stand out from another with technique being somewhat
>equal.
>I get offered chances to "fix"  imported shades from time to time and kinda
>get a feel for poor quality in construction as well as artistic
>interpretation.
>just a bit of rambling............H
>weaver51@teleport.com
>Elaine and Howard
>best lamps on the "net":
>http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 00:54:09 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Wed Feb 17 23:50:05 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.21285.0>
Precedence: bulk

you know gary
i have been doing glass a long time, been reading these message quite a
while, and it is so nice to have someone say that it is what works for you
that you do
i get so tired of hearing how you don't do something because someone 100
years ago didn't, when we all know that if they had what we have, they would
use it....
do what you do to the best that you can do it with what you have to do it
with

i feel sorry for all the "newbies" on the list that have to feel they can
never use a grinder or any other tool---use it, enjoy it, do what ever it is
you need to do to do your craft well and enjoy it---just do it

debbie
-----Original Message-----
From: dodgestudio@juno.com <dodgestudio@juno.com>
To: ABBIE23875@prodigy.net <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:42 AM
Subject: Re: Hi yall...


>Abbie,
>
>If the tip you are referring to is the Weller "beading tip", I was not
>crazy about it when I tried it but I've been doing it with the other tips
>for so many years that that doesn't mean much.  You really need to see
>what works best fory YOU.
>
>The same with the solder.  Some folks love 60/40, others 50/50.  I feel
>that the brand is as important as the grade.  For the record I use
>Canfield 50/50 and have since the beginning.  Just switching to Canfield
>60/40 makes me crazy because it behaves differently and my usual tricks
>don't work.  It's mostly in what you get used to, although there are also
>some hard and fast differences.  For building an edge bead the higher
>viscosity of a 50/50 solder is definately and advantage.  For filling
>large gaps a base of 50/50 with cooler melting 60/40 over top can help.
>Decorative solder work calls for a mix of solders.
>On the other hand if your solder has a lot of dirt in it switch brands
>pronto, but don't be fooled by the oxides that soldering too hot produce.
> Sometimes beginners work too hot and think the solder is dirty.  If you
>clean the tip and immediately see it start to turn gold or purple
>iridescent looking you need to turn your temperature control down.
>
>
>Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
>
>http://www.dodgestudio.com
>
>
>On Wed, 17 Feb 1999 18:07:16 -0500 "Evelyn C Mason"
><ABBIE23875@prodigy.net> writes:
>>I have been reading the discussions on grinders and wonder how
>>everyone
>>feels about the soldering tip that is half-moon shaped that is
>>supposed to
>>create a better  soldering bead.? This is one of my weak points.  Also
>>the
>>different lead contents of the solder.....Are there better uses for
>>each of
>>these? Thanks for the help...Abbie
>>
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>
>Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
>
>http://www.dodgestudio.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 03:12:03 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>, "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:29:35 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.92935.0>
Precedence: bulk

Ummm!



This could be interesting - slip sticks at ten paces!



Fire at will!



BtB



 



>

>Bob E Duchesneau  wrote:

>

>>Perhaps foiling major windows will catch on but I doubt it.. The =

>inflexible

>>construction method would seem to insure self destruction in all but =

>the

>>most mild cliamets..=20

>

>I do not understand the reasoning here..  I work a great deal with =

>combination of materials where the different expansion/contraction rates =

>of wood versus metal versus glass versus ceramic (etc......) is critical =

>for the long term survival of a piece..  Yet I do not understand why this =

>should apply to a comparison of cemented lead came versus well soldered =

>copper foil.. =20





etc etc





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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 03:41:13 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: <daver!one.net!kleeman@popmail.dircon.co.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:13:10 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.101310.0>
Precedence: bulk

Debbie

I know I said that I had finished on the subject but I have to say this is
exactly what I was on about.


BtB




>you know gary
>i have been doing glass a long time, been reading these message quite a
>while, and it is so nice to have someone say that it is what works for you
>that you do
>i get so tired of hearing how you don't do something because someone 100
>years ago didn't, when we all know that if they had what we have, they
would
>use it....
>do what you do to the best that you can do it with what you have to do it
>with
>
>i feel sorry for all the "newbies" on the list that have to feel they can
>never use a grinder or any other tool---use it, enjoy it, do what ever it
is
>you need to do to do your craft well and enjoy it---just do it
>
>debbie



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 03:55:27 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!SGriffiSBG
From: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 05:31:15 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.103115.0>
Precedence: bulk

T Suzanne writes:

"Probably, what is worse, is that I find soldering very relaxing, and I
sort of trance out and sing, and more than likely suck lots of fumes.  I
notice if I do alot of soldering at once, the next day, I am congested,
and coughing.

Hepafilters arent exactly cheap!"

I know they are expensive but cancer is more expensive....cost is not the
value but sustaining a healthier  life is
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 06:12:53 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:14:25 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.11425.0>
References: <<1999Feb18.103115.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> 
> I know they are expensive but cancer is more expensive....cost is not the
> value but sustaining a healthier  life is

Boy, That's true!  Guess I know what I am shopping for next!

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 06:47:26 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Evelyn C Mason <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:28:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.02833.0>
References: <<1999Feb17.13716.0@[207.126.97.2]>>
Organization: SBWSA
Precedence: bulk

I used that tip and could never get a better bead than when I used my regular
tip.  There are a few posted on the "used, for sale" board, so I guess they
haven't gone over so big, at least where I'm at.  For myself, I never get rid
of anything.  I know next year or the year after I'll be looking for the darn
thing.

Carol T

Evelyn C Mason wrote:

> I have been reading the discussions on grinders and wonder how everyone
> feels about the soldering tip that is half-moon shaped that is supposed to
> create a better  soldering bead.? This is one of my weak points.  Also the
> different lead contents of the solder.....Are there better uses for each of
> these? Thanks for the help...Abbie
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 07:05:23 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Candy Thurman <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 08:17:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.01722.0>
References: <<199902180111.SAA07078@mantis.privatei.com>>
Organization: SBWSA
Precedence: bulk

I wonder if you were in the same Mole Hole shop that I was in.  I examined a hanging lamp and
noticed several cracked pieces of glass.  When I brought that to the attention of the owner of
the Mole Hole, he just shrugged like it was no big deal. It was a small Tiffany repoduction with
a price tag of $360.  For the heck of it, I think I'll stop there today and see if it's still
hanging there.  btw, we get many tiffany knockoffs in for repair and the price quoted to most
people is more than they paid for the lamp originally, and they almost always decide to forget
the repair and go back to the same place and get a new one.

Carol T

Candy Thurman wrote:

> I examined one of the lamps I saw in 'The Mole Hole' by D. Tiffany Co.. and found to my
> surprise that the lamp was soldered only on the outside.. and there was still burnt wood
> ashes on the bottom side of the solder seams. So... I supposed that they used wood
> forms and floated solder all over everything and pried it off when it was cool... I may
> have come to the wrong conclusion of course.. I also noted that the solder did not cover
> all the copper foil and so when it was patinaed the bare copper foil (of course ) wasn't
> covered.. also the copper foil was not trimmed and so there was many an overlap.. A
> lot of effort was put into the lamp.. just can't understand why they can't take a little more
> time and do it right  ;-)
>
> Candy
>
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 07:47:46 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Different uses for different solders
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:48:44 -0500
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Message text written by "Evelyn C Mason"
>Also the different lead contents of the solder....
Are there better uses for each of these?<

Yes.  I find the 50/50 is more pasty and requires
a higher temperature to melt & flow.  This makes
it excellent for filling in gaps.  The 60/40 melts at
a lower temperature and flows nicely (not as
pasty as the 50/50).  This makes it excellent for
flowing on top of the 50/50 over those gaps,
since it doesn't remelt the 50/50.  Generally, I
use the 60/40 for most work.

And there is a definate place for non-lead solder.
I only allow this type of solder when teaching =

outside of my studio space, like, in a church.
Let's keep it safe.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 08:18:47 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:10:53 -0500
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Don495@aol.com wrote:
> 
> << believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
>  it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
>  providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
>  slide around. >>
> Mike
> What about the old roll of foil I have that lost it sticky a long time ago.
> Doesn't the same thing happen to the glue on foil when in used in a project.
> Don
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all i know is that every project that i've taken apart to be salvaged,
the foil was still sticky. and certain projects would have fallen apart
a long time ago if the glue failed. things like blob creatures, where
there is a little bit of foil holding it together. 

i think the glue adds to the strength, i never said it was a major
source.

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 08:41:36 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:15:49 -0500
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suzy@comcat.com wrote:
> 
> My apologies to Albert Lewis, I sent you this by mistake!
> 
> For Bungi:
> 
> On this vein, I received a repair recently on a panel bought in Mexico.
> It was foiled with a thin lead for trim. When I took some of the border
> pieces out, noticed that the copper foil around these pieces did not wrap
> all the way around. The foil started and ended about 1/2" in on the
> outside edge.
> 
> Is this standard practice? I've always foiled all the way around every
> piece. Maybe in Mexico they are saving on the cost of foil?
> 
> Suzanne
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i've seen the method done. i would have to guess that it would save some
foil and time. and it would alow the came to slip on better. i
personally don't mind shoving it on...

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 08:47:02 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:46:43 -0500
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Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
> > it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
> > providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
> > slide around.
> 
> Do you have some reference -- a book, a practicing professional --
> you could give us on that?
> 
> Albert
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ok let's do an un-scientific experiment. take two strips of clear glass
(for eveness). strips of glass 1-1/2" wide by 7" long. use 3/16" foil on
the ends only. cut more glass, do the same thing only this time use
3/16" without glue. 

solder the ends together. put a wieght on one side and let the other
side hang off the edge of a table. time it. see which one falls off
first. 

in the theory that the glue makes no difference in strength, they should
both fall apart at the same time. this would be a fair test. though in
reality the foil would be wrapped down the whole piece. but in this
experiment we want to see how much longer the sticky foil stays up
comapred to the unsticky.

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 09:17:28 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Speaking of Tiffany
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:24:56 -0500
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A & E's Biography will have LCT on March 1st. Boy, with so much talk he
must be turning in his grave.

K See

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 09:21:03 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Evelyn C Mason <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:26:48 -0500
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Evelyn C Mason wrote:
> 
> I have been reading the discussions on grinders and wonder how everyone
> feels about the soldering tip that is half-moon shaped that is supposed to
> create a better  soldering bead.? This is one of my weak points.  Also the
> different lead contents of the solder.....Are there better uses for each of
> these? Thanks for the help...Abbie
> 
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i personally never used it, some people swear by it. basically it allows
a tunnel for the solder. but the bead can still sink. and you have to
hold the iron in one direction only. that can be uncomfortable, you'll
be twisting your body around more then you should be.

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 09:32:52 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 10:35:32 -0500
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Steve Richard wrote:
> 
> In message <1999Feb17.54446.0@?>, M. Savad <esavad@home.net> writes
> >
> >solder will be drawn in to any sized joint due to capilary action. like
> >soldering copper pipes for your water. the adhesion for the foil is
> >important. if you ere to compare a suncatcher made with 5/32" foil vs
> >one that has 1/4" the 1/4" (with more glue), will be stronger. also if
> >the solderlines is what's holding in the pieces, why wrap the outside
> >edges with foil at all? because the pieces would fall out.
> >
> >i believe the glue is a structural part of the project. lead came has
> >it's cement, it stiffins the project. the glue does the same job,
> >providing it has a good rough surface to stick to. otherwise it would
> >slide around.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> I can't agree Mike.  With your background, you must be aware of the
> mechanical properties of impact adhesives in environments with widely
> varying temperatures.  If the foil was a major structural part of the
> project, there is no reason to continue to use solder.  We could just
> use some more impact adhesive to join the foiled edges together.  In
> fact, we could just glue the cut pieces of glass together, because it
> would be just as strong as relying on the foil's adhesive.
> 
> Also, impact adhesives work better on two smooth surfaces than one or
> two rough surfaces.  The total adhesion surface is what is important.
> The amount of adhesive on the foil is not enough to go into the "pits"
> caused by grinding.
> 
> IMO, of course
> Steve
> --
> Steve Richard
> Verrier Art Glass Ltd
> s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
> ----
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and that's what solder is, it's glue. you can glue the entire panel, it
would probably be even stronger then solder, stiffer any way. but that
would look ugly. i can just tell you from experience. when i take apart
somthing that is old, the glue is still active, and anything that is
ground sticks on with alot more force, then something that had smooth
edges. 

maybe the glue helps when there is a twisting motion in the glass.
solder stretches and stays in place, but the glue may help keep
everything in place. 

i personnally don't really care about the ultra-dynamics of foil, or
materials. i know that they work for me. i don't care how the car works
as long as it take me where i want to go...

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 10:20:09 1999
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X-Path: GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU!kaye
From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Repairs/restoration, etc
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:05:51 CST 6CDT
Message-ID: <199902181707.LAA14164@relay.acns.nwu.edu>
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All this talk about restoration has re-inspired, but frustrated, me.  
I've been "doing glass" (as a hobby) for about ten years, and for 
quite awhile now I've wanted to try my hand at "rebuilding" an old 
window--replacing broken glass, old came, etc (but I'm not ready to 
tackle someone else's prized possession).  Anyway, I haven't been 
able to find a panel on which to work.  

I realize my timing is lousy--even a few years ago my quest would 
probably have been easier.  Antique shops and salvage places are 
too expensive.  And I have no grandparents with boxes full of old 
windows in their basements (an acquaintance made such a find--
windows had long ago been removed for tuck-pointing of the house and never 
re-installed.  Some were in pretty rough condition, but the house 
was still in the family so he was slowly restoring them to their 
original locations).

Anybody have any suggestions for where I might look?  I'm in the 
Chicago area, so there must be stuff around--I just don't know how 
best to proceed. 

Kaye 
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 10:46:12 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: half moon tips...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:15:33 -0500
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Sounds like me , I never throw anything away.....

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 10:49:21 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: All unleaded for children?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:25:44 -0500
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Hi Christie,I am sure it is safer for items children come in contact
with[like suncatchers in there rooms] but if they don't handle them,is it
okay to use leaded solder? Thanks Abbie


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 11:23:09 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fume trap...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:58:35 -0500
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Hey Suzanne, They were updating the equipment in a med lab here and a friend
bought me the "fume trap" they had used in the lab.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 11:47:13 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: oops...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 13:02:10 -0500
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Sent last message before it's time....The fume trap is bulky [1 1/2 foot
sq.] but it sure works...maybe  you can check into something like that. Take
care,Abbie

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 11:52:08 1999
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From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Repairs/restoration, etc
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:26:21
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there are companies that do demolition of houses, buildings, businesses,
etc. they then sell the fixtures to recover costs. i'd look in the yellow
pages and call some of them up. if they didn't have any, they might either
keep a watch out for you, or know where else to contact.

you can sometimes find old windows in yard or estate sales. i found a
couple that have cracked glass, but are intact otherwise. 

regards,
charlie
phx, az

>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:05:51 -0600
>Subject: Repairs/restoration, etc
>Sender: kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU
>From: kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU
>To: glass@bungi.com
>
>All this talk about restoration has re-inspired, but frustrated, me.  
>I've been "doing glass" (as a hobby) for about ten years, and for 
>quite awhile now I've wanted to try my hand at "rebuilding" an old 
>window--replacing broken glass, old came, etc (but I'm not ready to 
>tackle someone else's prized possession).  Anyway, I haven't been 
>able to find a panel on which to work.  
>
>I realize my timing is lousy--even a few years ago my quest would 
>probably have been easier.  Antique shops and salvage places are 
>too expensive.  And I have no grandparents with boxes full of old 
>windows in their basements (an acquaintance made such a find--
>windows had long ago been removed for tuck-pointing of the house and never 
>re-installed.  Some were in pretty rough condition, but the house 
>was still in the family so he was slowly restoring them to their 
>original locations).
>
>Anybody have any suggestions for where I might look?  I'm in the 
>Chicago area, so there must be stuff around--I just don't know how 
>best to proceed. 
>
>Kaye 

--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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In a message dated 2/17/99 9:31:47 PM, "Linda Jo Tiffany" wrote:

>There are
>gas stations on every corner, and grocery stores on every other corner,
>hairdressers, you name it

You left out NAIL SALONS! Not too far from my house, there's a mile-long
stretch of commercial strip with six of 'em (unless I lost count).


Sparks (nails? what nails?)
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Also sprach Dani Greer:

>You might as well say Toby is a cat.

Well, if it's true that "you are what you eat".....

No, wait, that would make Toby - never mind, I'm not going there..........


Sparks
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Shirley B's enquiring mind wanted to know:

>>The enlarged pattern has large black areas between the wing pieces up by
>>the face.  My question is: does this represent pure solder?

It might also be open space. If it's a big open space and you're concerned
about the strength of the finished product, you can support the perimeter of
the open area with some copper wire or re-strip.


Sparks
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Also sprach Mike:

>> the inland fume trap is garbage.

I have one, and while I wouldn't go so far as to call it garbage, I find that
it's effective only if I keep it within 6 to 8 inches of the point where I'm
soldering. It is pretty incovenient to keep having to move the thing, but I do
it anyway. 'cause all toxicity concerns aside, those flux fumes are so damned
*irritating*!

I also have a clip-on fan hanging from the shelf over one of my workbenches,
and I keep that running (aimed *over* the work, not at it, otherwise the
solder tends to set up "grainy") while I'm soldering. Of course, if the
weather's nice, I just open both garage doors - or move everything outside -
and let Mother Nature take care of the fumes.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 12:57:17 1999
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From: "Pawel Karaszkiewicz" <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
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Subject: conservation
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:19:04 +0100
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Dani
I read most of the opinions concerning replacing leading and cannot add =
more:
it is a heresy to change lead cames for  copper foil (and vice versa of =
course) - they are completety different techniques and one will get a =
new panel instead of restored one. Lines created in copper foil are more =
"flowing" than stiffer lead cames  and the overall apperance of soldered =
edges is completely differenet - it is forgotten very often that the the =
drawing created by leading is nearly as important as glass.  We use =
copper foil sometimes for assembling a broken large piece of glass when =
glue will not work properly - on the long join the differeneces in =
expansions of glue and glass  play an important role and the thin solder =
line is stronger than similar made of lead. It adsorbs too  small =
movements caused by temperature variations. And we never replace broken =
pieces with new glass (unless it is missing) as it is hardly possible to =
to find a new piece identical with the old one. And we rarely change old =
renovations - predecessors were usually closer to original. And we =
replace leading only when it is really necessary - even then we try to =
leave as much  original leading as possible. =20

Pawel  =20

PS. Long time ago it was a short discussion about Polish glass from =
Jaslo (Casimir in US). I found the address of the factory - perhaps =
someone will be interested to contact them directly. Here it is:=20
			Huta Szkla w Jasle, Sp.z o.o.=20
			ul. Sniadeckich 19
			38-200 Jaslo
tel. ++48 13 4462091
fax: ++48 13 4462094
contact person: Barbara Kordek

They have a nice set of samples
 
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 13:23:28 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:23:48 -0500
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Putties and cements are no longer hard and brittle... they are firm
but pliable.  The hard cements from years ago contained Portland
cement which is now understood to be a big no-no.  We no longer
use it in our cement formula.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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Going with the flow......

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 14:23:39 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Grinder-free experiment results
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:18:42 -0500
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OK folks.  You grinder-less people made me stop
and re-examine my copper foil construction methods.
I was especially curious about what Albert said about
grozing glass edges by swiping one edge of glass
against another.  So...I decided to take one of my
production line products, a 4"x4"x5" square candle
chimney, and try making a couple of them without
using my grinder.  Here's the results:

Glass used: clear single glue chip, medium cathedral
        blue, Youghiogheny gold/Rose Ripple
        (yes, Sparks, it's the "Glass From H*ll),
        clear Morisco (a high texture)
Tools used: Toyo pistol grip cutter, running pliers,
        breaker/grozer pliers, Morton Portable
        Glass shop (for cutting straight lines),
        copper foil, black-backed foil, fid, knife,
        50/50 & 60/40 solder, Temptrol 100 iron
        with build-in temperature control, Fluxomatic

Using the Morton grid & Portable Glass shop I set up
for cutting multiple pieces of the same size, all straight
lines.  No problems cutting, except a few little "mountains"
on the Youghiogheny Ripple glass.  These were removed
by careful grozing using the breaker/grozer pliers.  No
pieces had to be recut or ground.  Grozed all edges of
all 40 pieces of glass by swiping one edge against a
scrap piece of glass.  This successfully dulled the edges
and removed any razor edged places.

Both the copper/copper and black-backed foils stuck
well to the non-ground glass edges.  I tried both =

hand-foiling and machine-foiling.  The non-ground glass
did fine either way.  No problems of the non-ground
glass cutting through the foil.

Soldered well.  Experienced no tearing away of the
foil from the glass.  Experienced the exact same fit
as when I ground the glass.

Final product is indistinguishable from ground work.
Overall, took less time since I didn't have to grind,
wash glass or dry glass prior to foiling.

So....I'm a convert.  But mind you, I only tried this on
straight lines.  My next experiment will involve curves.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 14:48:23 1999
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From: "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
To: <dodgestudio@juno.com>,
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Subject: Cutting Techniques
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:29:15 -0800
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I have always realized that there are many dedicated teachers on
the list and the latest thread on cutting accurately really proves that
point.  Boy do I wish I had taken classes with Elisabeth, Dani, Gary
or any of the other teachers here who would have kept the grinder 
hidden away (at least for awhile)!!!

Being taught in a craft center where I believe the teacher was little 
more than a newbie herself, I believe I absorbed a few cutting 
techniques that need to be unlearned.  I'm going to try to find some
additional training somewhere that focuses on the art and proper
techniques.  

Gary, you said some very interesting things about allowing your
students to learn without the expectation of *perfection*.  My teacher
emphasized the importance that the fit between the two pieces of 
glass be *perfect* (achieved with the grinder).  As a result, several of 
the people I took the class with eventually gave up on stained glass 
after about six months because they couldn't deal with the frustration 
level of always trying to attain that level of perfection. (We were taught 
that if there was the slightest space we were to slide an extra piece of 
foil between the pieces.  Now I know how detrimental that extra-tight
fit is.)  

Had I not discovered Bungi I don't doubt that I would have thrown in
the towell myself long ago.  

Dawn

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From: "Dawn" <dawnm@fidnet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Tapping?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:37:09 -0800
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Gary,

You mentioned you do not allow your students to tap out the glass.
I've always highly regarded your opinion, so I'll take your word for 
it that it's a no-no.  But, why is it?

Dawn



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 15:16:41 1999
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Subject: Stained Glass Sabbaticals
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:25:09 -0800
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With all the discussion lately about learning proper techniques I'm
going to start searching out various places and locations to take
some additional training, and hopefully some extended sabbaticals. 
I'd like to find some quality training in Missouri, but also want to take
advantage of my frequent out-of-state trips.  

Anyone know of any *in-depth* training available in Missouri?  I'm 
going to St. Louis this weekend to take a refresher course on 
soldering.   

I'm going to be in the Houston area the first week of March.  Does
anyone know of any quality teaching facilities in the area? Any other 
stained glass places of interest to visit in the Houston area?

I was originally thinking about taking glass blowing courses in 
Galveston over that weekend.  Does anyone know anything about the
quality of the hot glass courses taught at Galveston Glass?  

I'm going to be in Jackson, Tennessee sometime later in March.  Any
chance of a learning opportunity in the general area?  I don't mind
driving an hour or so in either direction.

My main emphasis right now is to obtain as much additional training
in cutting, leading, installation and design as possible.  I'm interested 
in hot glass, but want to concentrate on stained glass first.  With plenty 
of vacation time to spare, I'm ready to forget I even know 
what a grinder is, pack my bags and head off in any direction!!

Dawn

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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:11:10 -0500
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Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Also sprach Mike:
> 
> >> the inland fume trap is garbage.
> 
> I have one, and while I wouldn't go so far as to call it garbage, I find that
> it's effective only if I keep it within 6 to 8 inches of the point where I'm
> soldering. It is pretty incovenient to keep having to move the thing, but I do
> it anyway. 'cause all toxicity concerns aside, those flux fumes are so damned
> *irritating*!
> 
> I also have a clip-on fan hanging from the shelf over one of my workbenches,
> and I keep that running (aimed *over* the work, not at it, otherwise the
> solder tends to set up "grainy") while I'm soldering. Of course, if the
> weather's nice, I just open both garage doors - or move everything outside -
> and let Mother Nature take care of the fumes.
> 
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


mainly i don't like it because it really does'nt do anything but make
noise. it is'nt high enough (for edge tinning). mainly it re-directs the
smoke. i use it now and then, but it has to be right on top of where i'm
working to do anything...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 15:57:17 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Repairs/restoration, etc
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:13:53 -0800
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>>All this talk about restoration has re-inspired, but frustrated, me.
I've been "doing glass" (as a hobby) for about ten years, and for
quite awhile now I've wanted to try my hand at "rebuilding" an old
window--replacing broken glass, old came, etc (but I'm not ready to
tackle someone else's prized possession).  Anyway, I haven't been
able to find a panel on which to work.  <<

Just about any stained glass studio is likely to have damaged SG
panels that are likely free for the asking. Whenever the average panel
is about 30% broken it is easier to make a new panel than repair it.
The old panel is then trashed. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 16:15:38 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:26:12 +0000
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Hi All,
.....Divine, huh??
" 'Cor blimey!"

Woman.... hhmm well yes (Having a look; Yep,  all the required "bits" 
in reasonably the right places). And certainly NO Gnomen!!!

But I AM an Imp!! My students know me as a horrible, nasty 'n wicked 
witch.... Have broom - will travel!! Why change habits of a 
lifetime!?
On a less wicked note, I suppose my point has always been 
that, there are nuggets of gold to be had/learned even from the 
freshest of "newbies". I have a quote pinned on my kitchen wall
                  "We human beings are leaning animals;
                    when we stop learning, we die".

....and since I don't intend to die just yet, I suppose I'll just 
have to keep on learning.......

 Oh, and did I at one stage confess to the fact that I actually own a 
grinder...;->

To UNconfuse you wonderful "Newbies" out there; I am a cantankerous
wicked Swede, who lives in England (... as in Great Britain).
I am about to haunt you and pester you about how to work in lead 
(about which I am still learning very humbly) according to cheap and 
cheerful methods - yet old and ancient -  during my forthcoming visit 
to USA in August and September.
Rather than wonderful, new, dazzling techniques, requiring new, 
difficult-to-get "gizmos, costing an arm and a leg, I will be going 
back to basics. I will bring a motley of "silly" tools either I 
myself have dreamt up, or my students (all of whom I am very proud).
Peggy Johnsen gave me the confidence to "dream on"; Carol Swann, 
Pamela, Suzanne Albright, Lenore, Lee ..... and Mary.... quietly 
lurking in the back-ground and a number of enthusiastic helpers are 
now making it all happen.
Daft, calling it the "E-Tour".... but fun too.
Hey folks!
I just cannot tell you how much I am looking forward to meeting 
you....!
For details of the E-Tour contact Carol Swann and/or click on her
"tag" Visit the E-Tour" web-site......

Ok Dani???
Back in yer good book again???
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

 

The idea of the divine Miss E. acting 
as my apprentice is total absurdity!!  The woman is a teacher of long 
standing who has trained hundreds if not thousands of students in
stained glass.  You won't be sweeping any floors here, doll.... =

you'll be working right along side us getting ready for a =

couple of big shows.  Now stop being an imp!  You're =

confusing all the bungi newcomers.  Start promoting the E-Tour!
There are lots of folks on bungi who could benefit from your
teaching and workshops while your in the US.
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 16:47:49 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject:  Bungi Visitor about to descend on UK
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:26:12 +0000
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Hi all,

This is directed mainly to UK Bunginians - and Brian the Brit in 
particular- (seeing that you were about to  pay me a visit).

Daniel German (our photographer who set up our unofficial picture 
gallery) is coming to visit me on February 26th. He is 
coming for the day and staying overnight to catch a flight back to 
Canada on the Saturday 27th.

Anyone care to join us for part of the day???  Dinner??
Stay over if you like?? I have one extra camp-bed, but reasonable 
amount of floor space (and a very loving Toby - who has a liking for 
ears....)

Who was it who had the gall to state,  that anchovies is OFF the 
menu... ;->    ???
Contact me off-group and perhaps we might have a week-end of it.
For a nice smarmy couple coming, I might even consider 
giving up my king-size bed and retreat to a floor space myself.
.... it depends....;->

Well??

Elisabeth 'n Toby in Hertfordshire (UK)
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 17:02:57 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: All unleaded for children?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:55:13 -0500
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Message text written by "Evelyn C Mason"
>Hi Christie,I am sure it is safer for items children come in contact
with[like suncatchers in there rooms] but if they don't handle them,is it=

okay to use leaded solder? Thanks Abbie<

Oh, sure.  In my studio I've only used non-leaded
solder once.  I really prefer to use 60/40 and some-
times 50/50.  But I never use leaded solder when
I am a guest teacher at someone else's place.
You can never fully control the site if it is not your
place.  Therefore, I only use non-leaded solder
so just in case someone at the church gets lead
poisoning they can't blame me.  Just covering my
you-know-what.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 17:19:06 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:57:29 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.75729.0>
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How long will the modern putty or cement remain pliable?  10 years, 25, 50?
I know of no substance guaranteed for more than 30.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 18, 1999 2:28 PM
Subject: Lead Came vs. Foil


>Putties and cements are no longer hard and brittle... they are firm
>but pliable.  The hard cements from years ago contained Portland
>cement which is now understood to be a big no-no.  We no longer
>use it in our cement formula.  =
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>www.igga.org/greer/  =
>
>----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 17:34:11 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Dawn <dawnm@fidnet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Tapping?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:03:40 -0500
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Dawn wrote:
> 
> Gary,
> 
> You mentioned you do not allow your students to tap out the glass.
> I've always highly regarded your opinion, so I'll take your word for
> it that it's a no-no.  But, why is it?
> 
> Dawn
> 
> ----
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because tapping can cause mis-direction in the fracture. each tap tends
to "cup" the break, and each tap makes that cup go in another direction.
i only tap if i absolutly have to.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 17:50:47 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: a lot of effort
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 99 17:37:08 
Message-ID: <199902190037.RAA12426@mantis.privatei.com>
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They still had to cut and foil the glass and put it in the right place on the mold!!
Candy

>lot of effort was put into the lamp.. just can't understand why they can't
>take a little more
>time and do it right  ;-)"
>
>Candy
>
>Just a simple observation, EXACTLY where was a lot of effort put in?????
>Perhaps packing it for EXPORT!

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 18:06:37 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: A solder/lead/grinding synopsis
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:23:37 -0600
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> all i know is that every project that i've taken apart to be salvaged,
> the foil was still sticky. and certain projects would have fallen apart
> a long time ago if the glue failed. things like blob creatures, where
> there is a little bit of foil holding it together. 
> 
> i think the glue adds to the strength, i never said it was a major
> source.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 


I am not claiming to know a *thing* about this.
Just an observation...

When my 1st husband died (1984)...*all* my glass stuff got packed
including over 100 peices of cut and foiled glass (in the midst of a
lamp class)

When I unpacked (1998) my glass stuff, after having been stored all
over...

1.At least one hot summer in a storage space in Sacramento,
2.a musty damp old garage in Seattle, within a mile of the Puget Sound  
for 4 years
3.West Virginia, for a year or two...I dont know what it was like, as my
stuff went and I changed my mind..so it lived there without me awhile.

4 a *very* *hot* attic in Tulsa Oklahoma for another 6 years.

5 indoors for a year

6.  A damp and musty basement in Tulsa....

Then 14 years later...It is incredibly hard to get the foil off those
peices of glass.  So...the adhesive has worked fairly well, I would say.
Of course it was not soldered...

I dont know if it means anything or not.

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 18:32:28 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Repairs/restoration, etc
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 19:59:00 EST
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Kaye, I do. 

I too, was frustrated, since the antique shops here were selling stuff needing
minor repairs, for outrageous prices, and  the flea market - swap meet route
was getting me nowhere. I went to a salvage yard, one specializing in
architectural antiques, and ask the guy if he wasn't offered leaded glass
windows in "basket case" shape once in a while. He said yeah, put he wont buy
it. I said, so do me a favor, here's 50 bucks, I trust you, hold it till you
can buy me some windows, or whatever, call me, and I'll come get it. It took
about a month, but I got two "losers", nasty, and one transom, in fairly good
shape. Point being, those guys will normally reject that stuff, unless they
know they have a home for it. Worth a try, I think.

Richard
Glassics Artglass 
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 18:59:04 1999
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From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.161411.0>
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Thanks to all for the responses to my queries about D.T..

I have determined that his company is no longer in Moonachie N.J.

I'll have to wait till I get back on my feet after surgery which is
scheduled for Tuesday, to find out where (not that I am overly motivated
about it) he is.  Seems my bout with pneumonia was a God sent.  X-rays, Cat
scan's, and Biopsy have uncovered a non small cell mass on my lung which I
would have never known about if I hadn't gotten sick.  Fortunately it has
not appeared anywhere else and is in the very early stages.

Fume traps sound like a great idea and smoke enders makes sense too.

Ciao

Vic
-----Original Message-----
From: Candy Thurman <candy@ghostman.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: Dale Tiffany?


>I examined one of the lamps I saw in 'The Mole Hole' by D. Tiffany Co.. and
found to my
>surprise that the lamp was soldered only on the outside.. and there was
still burnt wood
>ashes on the bottom side of the solder seams. So... I supposed that they
used wood
>forms and floated solder all over everything and pried it off when it was
cool... I may
>have come to the wrong conclusion of course.. I also noted that the solder
did not cover
>all the copper foil and so when it was patinaed the bare copper foil (of
course ) wasn't
>covered.. also the copper foil was not trimmed and so there was many an
overlap.. A
>lot of effort was put into the lamp.. just can't understand why they can't
take a little more
>time and do it right  ;-)
>
>Candy
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 20:13:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Tapping?
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:40:15 -0500
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Tapping is a time-honored method of breaking glass.... but, most
of us, especially as we grow older can't handle the bloody noise
of it.  It's not allowed around here either!  Also, if you don't really
know what you're doing, you can damage your glass. Ugh, just
thinking of the sound makes my skin crawl....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:07:36 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Hi yall...
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:24:29 -0500
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I pretty much use 50/50 on everything except special work as noted before
including came where I believe it to be the preferred solder for anyone
because it is better for bridging gaps due to its' higher viscosity.  As
for the melting point, 50/50 melts at a HIGHER temperature than 60/40,
but you'll spend enough extra time fooling around trying to get 60/40 to
bridge the gap that you'd be more like to melt the cames with it anyway. 


Solder melts at the lowest temperature a the ideal blend of 63/37 . 
Starting from there adding EITHER more tin or more lead to the mix raises
the temperature at which it will melt.  Adding more lead weakens the
alloy, adding more tin strengthens it.  (So yes 60/40 is stronger than
50/50 but in my opinion not enough so to make it an issue.)

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


>
><< For the record I use
> Canfield 50/50 and have since the beginning. >>
>
>Do you use 50\50 on foil and came?
>
>I was told 50/50 on came because it had a lower melting point - less 
>risk of
>melting the lead came and 60/40 on foil because it's stronger.  At 
>least I
>think I was told that, it 
>was a long time ago.
>
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:19:15 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: bshep@dircon.co.uk
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Work and learning styles
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:31:34 -0500
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Brian,

When you tap on glass you are creating a radial shock wave much like
ripples in a pond.  Rather than directly addressing the score line and
causing it to open in a controlled way, the artist who taps is hoping
that a random shock will do the right thing by him.  Sometimes it does,
sometimes not.  Any flaw or stone in the glass becomes a problem that
might result in an unwanted break in the glass, but worst of all, tapping
on the glass results in lots of little dings sticking out on the
underside of the score that must be grozed or ground off.  Who needs
that?!

As for new stuff, I love gadgets but only if they can do something better
or faster than I can do it without them!


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:22:13 -0000 "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
writes:
>Gary
>
>Read this with interest! I have never tapped glass to run a break but 
>I have
>seen many people do it! What specifically is your objection? It does 
>see to
>be a common practice - I've even seen SG workers do it!
>
>I'm  familiar with the Thomas pattern cutter although I haven't tried 
>one. I
>missed somehow the original mail and wondered if they were talking 
>about the
>Silberschnitt!
>
>
>I'm always keen to look at different methods of doing things (older 
>or
>newer!) and all the paraphenalia and specialised tools that accompany 
>a
>craft fascinate me. I'm something of a catalogue-aholic anyway!
>
>Best regards
>
>BtB
>
>
>
>>By the time my class is done we've got people both pulling and 
>pushing
>>their glass cutters.  Breaking by hand and with runners  (but never
>>tapping....ok, maybe a little inflexible ;-)
>
>
>
>
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:33:56 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: dawnm@fidnet.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Cutting Techniques
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:39:08 -0500
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>
>Being taught in a craft center where I believe the teacher was little 
>
>more than a newbie herself, I believe I absorbed a few cutting 
>techniques that need to be unlearned. 
>
>Gary, you said some very interesting things about allowing your
>students to learn without the expectation of *perfection*.  My 
>teacher
>emphasized the importance that the fit between the two pieces of 
>glass be *perfect* (achieved with the grinder).  As a result, several 
>of 
>the people I took the class with eventually gave up on stained glass 
>after about six months because they couldn't deal with the frustration 
>
>level of always trying to attain that level of perfection. (We were 
>taught 
>that if there was the slightest space we were to slide an extra piece 
>of 
>foil between the pieces.  Now I know how detrimental that extra-tight
>fit is.)  
>
>Had I not discovered Bungi I don't doubt that I would have thrown in
>the towell myself long ago.  
>
>Dawn
>
Dawn,

What a shame!  Part of the problem is the that adult education people in
the schools and community centers don't seem to take stained glass
seriously.  Any friend who has started tinkering with glass is seen as a
qualified instructor as long as they have made a cute suncatcher or two. 
They sure wouldn't be so cavalier in selecting an instructor for CPR  (I
hope!)  ;-)

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:34:23 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: sales
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:18:20 -0600
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Thought I was gonna get lucky today.

Gary saw an ad in the paper for a garage sale that included stained
glass.  I was really hoping it was loose glass.
Well, this guy had a probably 10 suncathers of the same design, and 2
3"x2" panels, and 3 half round panels.  Pretty designs and decent
glass...but awful awful awful *awful craftsmanship.  Nasty looking
solderlines.

It would seem that they were *meant to be so awful looking. I have never
seen such poor looking work...anywhere.  99% of first solder jobs I have
seen were *way* better.  Do some people solder like that to make it look
old maybe?  

There were huge gaps filled with solder (I guess it was solder)  Then
they are framed in zinc...I swear he must have been on something (stong)
when he put those on! lol...I mean...off my a 1/4 inch easy if not
more.  

Of course, now I am feeling bad, thinking, maybe the person that made
these had some disease that made it difficult or something...I hope not.
It was all I could do to keep my face blank...

Tulsa Suzanne
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:37:26 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Repairs/restoration, etc
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:48:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.16485.0>
Precedence: bulk



>>I realize my timing is lousy--even a few years ago my quest would 
>>probably have been easier.  Antique shops and salvage places are 
>>too expensive.  And I have no grandparents with boxes full of old 
>>windows in their basements (an acquaintance made such a find--
>>windows had long ago been removed for tuck-pointing of the house and 
>never 
>>re-installed.  Some were in pretty rough condition, but the house 
>>was still in the family so he was slowly restoring them to their 
>>original locations).
>>
>>Anybody have any suggestions for where I might look? 


Check into any auction houses in your area for old panels to restore.

>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:46:04 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:42:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.124210.0>
Precedence: bulk


>>>Perhaps foiling major windows will catch on but I doubt it. The =
inflexible
>construction method would seem to insure self destruction in all but
=
the
>most mild cliamets.=20

I do not understand the reasoning here.  I work a great deal with =
combination of materials where the different expansion/contraction
rates =
of wood versus metal versus glass versus ceramic (etc...) is critical
=
for the long term survival of a piece.  Yet I do not understand why
this =
should apply to a comparison of cemented lead came versus well
soldered =
copper foil.<<<

The realitive hardness of solder over came is thought by some to be
the reason foiled windows do not stand up to year round weather
conditions. Glass will tend to seat in the softer lead came and crack
before seating in solder.

BTW, a well maintained leaded window will be reputtied about every
thirty years and releaded every hundred years. Millage will vary
greatly.

When relaading is called for, then just that is done. ALL lead came is
replaced with new like material. Retension of old lead in an area of
the window is not in the clients best interest. The object is to get
the window into new condition without making changes. Cracked common
glass is replaced. Cracked glass that is no longer available or
cracked painted glass is joined together with came. It shows but that
is part of the charm of having glass that is origional. Missing glass
is replaced with glass that is as near to the origional as is
available. Sometimes a good color match is available and it is
necessary to heat treat for the desired texture.

Obviously different studios will do things differently. Sometimes the
client has his/her own ideas too. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 21:59:26 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mosfunland
From: Mosfunland@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: glass/music
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:45:20 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.44520.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have a grinder, its sitting in an infant oxygen tent for a spew cover.
There it sits.
I like the sound of scoring glass, I like the snap, I like the ring of a new
sheet.  I like the tapping of my hammer to set nails.  I like the sizzle of
solder.

 The dag-gum grinder noise makes my blood run cold.  

I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
selections to score by?

Maureen
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 23:28:22 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: music to work by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 00:57:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.185716.0>
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> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
> selections to score by?
> 
> Maureen

So nice to work in *my* shop!  I control the music! ;o)

I like the to score to stuff that reminds me of my teen years and being
chased by boys! ;o)  Grand Funk Railroad...IRon Butterfly....
and cant remember who did it but..."Crimson and Clover", of course..the
Beattles...please please me...and the guess who....Van Morrison...the
list goes on.....Joni Mitchell....Paul Simon....

I have a pretty cool stereo system all hooked up in the workshop...My
big old pioneer speakers...a cassette deck, cd player and amp.  

When soldering I listen to Kenny Loggins, Seals and Crofts...mellower
music.

When my husband comes out to help he puts on stuff that I like, but for
some reason is hard for me to work by and it irritates me.  I cant work
to the Neville Brothers, but I really like them otherwise.

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 18 23:50:43 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Hear me roar!
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 01:39:22 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb18.193922.0>
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Just mixed about 50 pounds of concrete by hand...and ready to arm
wrestle! ;o)  Kind of like a work out at the gym.  That was my first 
pour since December.  Thought I was getting tired of it.  Guess not.

Any body want a good story...let me know off list.  The story behind my
new sig file.  Made me cry.

Sweet dreams bungiland.

Kind of liked it when someone called me TS the other day...oh to be as
talented. ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 04:53:08 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Stained Glass Sabbaticals
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:19:46 +0000
Message-ID: <199902191212.HAA11310@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> I'd like to find some quality training in Missouri, but also want to take
> advantage of my frequent out-of-state trips. 

My, you do get around, don't you? <grin> Upcoming workshops are fully 
searchable on http://igga.org

Go to "Search This Site" (it's listed on the lower left of the main 
screen) and follow the instructions for workshops ... you have to 
include the keyword +upcoming (*with the plus sign ... it forces the 
search tool to find workshops).  You can enter keywords like "solder" 
or "came" or whatever, even state names, to force the search to 
restrict itself to those.

This morning, there were 298 workshop results to "+upcoming came" 
although the word "came" isn't very restrictive, since that would 
turn up files with "200 students came to last year's event." <grin>

The list of workshops is updated on a continuous basis. It's also 
available listed by month in date order at 
http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/

Albert

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 05:08:42 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:19:46 +0000
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> The realitive hardness of solder over came is thought by some to be
> the reason foiled windows do not stand up to year round weather
> conditions. Glass will tend to seat in the softer lead came and crack
> before seating in solder.

It's the inflexibility of copper-foiled work that makes it a bad 
choice for windows installed with one side to the exterior. Because 
they don't "move" as well as leaded windows, Bob's right in his 
thinking that the tendency for glass to break is increased. Thermal 
expansion's not the bugbear that many make it out to be, though. 
Glass expands very, very little in normal temperature ranges; if 
glass in an installed panel breaks, it's probably because the window 
was set too tightly.

Note that even Tiffany Studios, now considered the paragon of all 
things stained glass, didn't build most of its windows with copper 
foil. The exceptions prove the rule.


> When relaading is called for, then just that is done. ALL lead came is
> replaced with new like material. Retension of old lead in an area of
> the window is not in the clients best interest. The object is to get
> the window into new condition without making changes. 

Yes. Lead is expendable and of limited lifespan, some more limited 
than others thanks to past practice in the lead industry. When it was 
discovered how to extract the trace elements from lead and sell those 
off in other markets (silver, antimony, etc.), the makers of lead 
came began extolling the virtues of "pure lead," the worst thing you 
can use to build a window with any sort of extended life span. These 
days, the makers of lead came offer "restoration lead," which has the 
trace elements included for longer lifespan, which should be 100-150 
years at a minimum.


> Cracked common
> glass is replaced. Cracked glass that is no longer available or
> cracked painted glass is joined together with came. It shows but that
> is part of the charm of having glass that is origional. 

Such a repair is called a "dutchman," the new lead crosses a 
previously unleaded area, sometimes (often?) across a painted face. 
But in high-end restoration, such pieces are now glued with high-tech 
adhesives that have the same index of refraction as glass, so the 
repair is virtually invisible, closer to the original artist's 
intent, yet reversible (a primary tenet of good conservation 
practice).


> Missing glass
> is replaced with glass that is as near to the origional as is
> available. Sometimes a good color match is available and it is
> necessary to heat treat for the desired texture.

... and the original glass carefully stored away with the 
documentation rubbings, before-and-after photographs, etc., so that 
future restorers will have them available should it be possible at 
some point in the future to put the original glass back into place.


> Obviously different studios will do things differently. Sometimes the
> client has his/her own ideas too.

Quite right, although let's never leave the original artist out of 
the equation. <smile>

Albert
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 05:22:36 1999
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: glass/music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 07:12:50 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990219071250.006cab14@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
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Hi...
	If you like the Squirrel Nut Zippers you might enjoy the Cherry Poppin
Daddies.... I listen to them a lot but not while doing glass cause they
make me wanna dance......

>X-Path: aol.com!Mosfunland
>X-PH: V4.1@router2.mail.cornell.edu (Cornell Modified) 
>From: Mosfunland@aol.com
>To: glass@bungi.com
>Subject: glass/music
>Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:45:20 EST
>
>I have a grinder, its sitting in an infant oxygen tent for a spew cover.
>There it sits.
>I like the sound of scoring glass, I like the snap, I like the ring of a new
>sheet.  I like the tapping of my hammer to set nails.  I like the sizzle of
>solder.
>
> The dag-gum grinder noise makes my blood run cold.  
>
>I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
>uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
>selections to score by?
>
>Maureen
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 05:54:30 1999
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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 22:27:37 -0500
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Please unsubscribe me.  I  won't be able to get my e-mail for a few days =
and don't want my system to crash.

Thanks,
Roseanne

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 06:53:02 1999
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X-Path: mail.smu.edu!gshultz
From: Gary Shultz <gshultz@mail.smu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Tapping?
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:36:46 -0500
Message-ID: <v03007802b2f31846bf69@[129.119.37.12]>
References: <<1999Feb18.164015.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Might add that if you feel you MUST tap, consider using the head of a large
nail rather than something spherical. A six- or 8-inch nail, if held and
used properly allows you to focus the strike directly the score and seems
to virtually eliminate scalloping in most cases. It also is helpful to hold
the glass firmly while tapping.
=Gary


>Tapping is a time-honored method of breaking glass.... but, most
>of us, especially as we grow older can't handle the bloody noise
>of it.  It's not allowed around here either!  Also, if you don't really
>know what you're doing, you can damage your glass. Ugh, just
>thinking of the sound makes my skin crawl....
>
>Best,
>
>Dani Greer
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ Gary Shultz  -  gshultz@mail.smu.edu ~~~~~~~
~~~ Assoc. Dir. - SMU News & Information ~~~~~~~~
~~~ Tele. 214-768-7665  Fax 214-768-7663 ~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 07:57:47 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Mosfunland@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: glass/music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:33:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.53316.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.44520.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Mosfunland@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a grinder, its sitting in an infant oxygen tent for a spew cover.
> There it sits.
> I like the sound of scoring glass, I like the snap, I like the ring of a new
> sheet.  I like the tapping of my hammer to set nails.  I like the sizzle of
> solder.
> 
>  The dag-gum grinder noise makes my blood run cold.
> 
> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
> selections to score by?
> 
> Maureen
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


currently i'm using louis prima (collectors edition), nightmare before
xmas, zoot suit riot, cherry poppin daddies, and other swing mixes. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 08:24:55 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Tapping?
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:39:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.53932.0>
References: <<v03007802b2f31846bf69@[129.119.37.12]>>
Precedence: bulk

Gary Shultz wrote:
> 
> Might add that if you feel you MUST tap, consider using the head of a large
> nail rather than something spherical. A six- or 8-inch nail, if held and
> used properly allows you to focus the strike directly the score and seems
> to virtually eliminate scalloping in most cases. It also is helpful to hold
> the glass firmly while tapping.
> =Gary
> 
> >Tapping is a time-honored method of breaking glass.... but, most
> >of us, especially as we grow older can't handle the bloody noise
> >of it.  It's not allowed around here either!  Also, if you don't really
> >know what you're doing, you can damage your glass. Ugh, just
> >thinking of the sound makes my skin crawl....
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Dani Greer
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~ Gary Shultz  -  gshultz@mail.smu.edu ~~~~~~~
> ~~~ Assoc. Dir. - SMU News & Information ~~~~~~~~
> ~~~ Tele. 214-768-7665  Fax 214-768-7663 ~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i remember when my maintenance mechanic's teacher told everyone that you
have to tap the glass out. short straight cuts on single strength clear.
i showed him the way you do it by hand, which you get a smoother break.
i don't know if he's stil tapping or not (probably though).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 09:01:40 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:18:58 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Lead came types was: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:17:46 -0800
Message-ID: <199902191617.IAA25346@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis wrote:

>Yes. Lead is expendable and of limited lifespan, some more limited 
>than others thanks to past practice in the lead industry. When it was 
>discovered how to extract the trace elements from lead and sell those 
>off in other markets (silver, antimony, etc.), the makers of lead 
>came began extolling the virtues of "pure lead," the worst thing you 
>can use to build a window with any sort of extended life span. These 
>days, the makers of lead came offer "restoration lead," which has the 
>trace elements included for longer lifespan, which should be 100-150 
>years at a minimum.

I'd like to hear some more about lead came types...Albert mentions
restoration glass, and my supplier lists regular lead came and two types of
what they call extra strength cames...#2 alloy (doesn't say alloyed with
what), and 4% antimony.

What are the relative merits and drawbacks to each in window construction.
All the catalog says is that the 4% antimony is for folks who "like a
workout" when they use lead came...not very enlightening.

Also curious...merits of flat came vs. rounded came.  I like the look of the
rounded came much more than the flat, so I work with rounded for purely
cosmetic reasons.

Thanks



Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 09:22:19 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: All unleaded for children?
Date: Fri Feb 19 08:25:50 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.6350.0>
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Abbie

As long as the kids don't teeth on it, the leaded solder should not be a
heath threat.
My son has a stained glass stork that I completed the day he was born. It
has hung in his room since he came home from the hospital. Of course he was
taught that you look at it not play with it.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com


 

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Evelyn C Mason [mailto:ABBIE23875@prodigy.net]
		Sent:	Thursday, February 18, 1999 12:26 PM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	All unleaded for children?

		Hi Christie,I am sure it is safer for items children come in
contact
		with[like suncatchers in there rooms] but if they don't
handle them,is it
		okay to use leaded solder? Thanks Abbie


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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Abbie</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As long as the kids don't teeth on it, =
the leaded solder should not be a heath threat.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My son has a stained glass stork that =
I completed the day he was born. It has hung in his room since he came =
home from the hospital. Of course he was taught that you look at it not =
play with it.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Evelyn C Mason =
[<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:ABBIE23875@prodigy.net">mailto:ABBIE23875@prodigy.net</A>=
]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, February 18, 1999 12:26 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">All unleaded for children?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi Christie,I am sure it is safer for =
items children come in contact</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">with[like suncatchers in there rooms] =
but if they don't handle them,is it</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">okay to use leaded solder? Thanks =
Abbie</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 09:24:57 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: Elisabeth! was:support group for grinder users
Date: Fri Feb 19 08:47:10 1999
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Elisabeth

		You are probably the most divine horrible, nasty 'n wicked
witch/imp the world has ever seen. (Opinion subject to change after your
class but somehow I think my opinion will only move up.)

		I also agree with your theory that we never stop learning.
My grand father was born in 1894, died in 1996 and never stopped learning.
He always said that was one of the secret to long life. 

		One of my former computer operators told me that the quotes
on my summary sheets were the most important things she learned in training.
The first day was "Ignorance is curable; Stupidity is forever." Th second
day was "The Difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's
limits." The final days quote was my grandfathers: "No day is wasted if we
have learned something in it."  

		Looking forward to class.

		Vic M.
		Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 


		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Toby [mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk]
		Sent:	Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:26 PM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	Re: Elisabeth! was:support group for grinder
users

		Hi All,
		.....Divine, huh??
		" 'Cor blimey!"

		Woman.... hhmm well yes (Having a look; Yep,  all the
required "bits" 
		in reasonably the right places). And certainly NO Gnomen!!!

		But I AM an Imp!! My students know me as a horrible, nasty
'n wicked 
		witch.... Have broom - will travel!! Why change habits of a 
		lifetime!?
		On a less wicked note, I suppose my point has always been 
		that, there are nuggets of gold to be had/learned even from
the 
		freshest of "newbies". I have a quote pinned on my kitchen
wall
		                  "We human beings are leaning animals;
		                    when we stop learning, we die".

		....and since I don't intend to die just yet, I suppose I'll
just 
		have to keep on learning.......

		 Oh, and did I at one stage confess to the fact that I
actually own a 
		grinder...;->

		To UNconfuse you wonderful "Newbies" out there; I am a
cantankerous
		wicked Swede, who lives in England (... as in Great
Britain).
		I am about to haunt you and pester you about how to work in
lead 
		(about which I am still learning very humbly) according to
cheap and 
		cheerful methods - yet old and ancient -  during my
forthcoming visit 
		to USA in August and September.
		Rather than wonderful, new, dazzling techniques, requiring
new, 
		difficult-to-get "gizmos, costing an arm and a leg, I will
be going 
		back to basics. I will bring a motley of "silly" tools
either I 
		myself have dreamt up, or my students (all of whom I am very
proud).
		Peggy Johnsen gave me the confidence to "dream on"; Carol
Swann, 
		Pamela, Suzanne Albright, Lenore, Lee ..... and Mary....
quietly 
		lurking in the back-ground and a number of enthusiastic
helpers are 
		now making it all happen.
		Daft, calling it the "E-Tour".... but fun too.
		Hey folks!
		I just cannot tell you how much I am looking forward to
meeting 
		you....!
		For details of the E-Tour contact Carol Swann and/or click
on her
		"tag" Visit the E-Tour" web-site......

		Ok Dani???
		Back in yer good book again???
		Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

		 

		The idea of the divine Miss E. acting 
		as my apprentice is total absurdity!!  The woman is a
teacher of long 
		standing who has trained hundreds if not thousands of
students in
		stained glass.  You won't be sweeping any floors here,
doll.... =

		you'll be working right along side us getting ready for a =

		couple of big shows.  Now stop being an imp!  You're =

		confusing all the bungi newcomers.  Start promoting the
E-Tour!
		There are lots of folks on bungi who could benefit from your
		teaching and workshops while your in the US.
		----
		As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
		North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
		http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
		----
		----
		For subscription changes, please mail to:
glass-request@bungi.com
		To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
		Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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<TITLE>RE: Elisabeth! was:support group for grinder users</TITLE>
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<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Elisabeth</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You are probably the most =
divine</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">horrible, nasty 'n wicked =
witch</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">/imp the world has ever =
seen</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial"> (Opinion subject to change after your class but somehow =
I think my opinion will only move up.)</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I also agree with your theory that we =
never stop learning. My grand father was born in 1894, died in 1996 and =
never stopped learning. He always said that was one of the secret to =
long life. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">One of my former computer operators =
told me that the quotes on my summary sheets were the most important =
things she learned in training.&nbsp; The first day was &quot;Ignorance =
is curable; Stupidity is forever.&quot; Th second day was &quot;The =
Difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has it's =
limits.&quot; The final days quote was my grandfathers: &quot;No day is =
wasted if we have learned something in it.&quot;&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Looking forward to class.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><A HREF=3D"mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT></U></A>
</P>
<BR>

<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Toby [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk">mailto:toby@northlights.co.uk</A>=
]</FONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:26 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: Elisabeth! was:support group for =
grinder users</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hi All,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">.....Divine, huh??</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot; 'Cor blimey!&quot;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Woman.... hhmm well yes (Having a =
look; Yep,&nbsp; all the required &quot;bits&quot; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">in reasonably the right places). And =
certainly NO Gnomen!!!</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">But I AM an Imp!! My students know me =
as a horrible, nasty 'n wicked </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">witch.... Have broom - will travel!! =
Why change habits of a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">lifetime!?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">On a less wicked note, I suppose my =
point has always been </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">that, there are nuggets of gold to be =
had/learned even from the </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">freshest of &quot;newbies&quot;. I =
have a quote pinned on my kitchen wall</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &quot;We human beings are =
leaning animals;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; when we stop =
learning, we die&quot;.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">....and since I don't intend to die =
just yet, I suppose I'll just </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">have to keep on learning.......</FONT>=

</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;Oh, and did I at one stage =
confess to the fact that I actually own a </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">grinder...;-&gt;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To UNconfuse you wonderful =
&quot;Newbies&quot; out there; I am a cantankerous</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">wicked Swede, who lives in England =
(... as in Great Britain).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I am about to haunt you and pester =
you about how to work in lead </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">(about which I am still learning very =
humbly) according to cheap and </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">cheerful methods - yet old and =
ancient -&nbsp; during my forthcoming visit </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to USA in August and =
September.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Rather than wonderful, new, dazzling =
techniques, requiring new, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">difficult-to-get &quot;gizmos, =
costing an arm and a leg, I will be going </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">back to basics. I will bring a motley =
of &quot;silly&quot; tools either I </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">myself have dreamt up, or my students =
(all of whom I am very proud).</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Peggy Johnsen gave me the confidence =
to &quot;dream on&quot;; Carol Swann, </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Pamela, Suzanne Albright, Lenore, Lee =
..... and Mary.... quietly </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">lurking in the back-ground and a =
number of enthusiastic helpers are </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">now making it all happen.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Daft, calling it the =
&quot;E-Tour&quot;.... but fun too.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Hey folks!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I just cannot tell you how much I am =
looking forward to meeting </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">you....!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For details of the E-Tour contact =
Carol Swann and/or click on her</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;tag&quot; Visit the =
E-Tour&quot; web-site......</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ok Dani???</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Back in yer good book again???</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&nbsp;</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The idea of the divine Miss E. acting =
</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">as my apprentice is total =
absurdity!!&nbsp; The woman is a teacher of long </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">standing who has trained hundreds if =
not thousands of students in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">stained glass.&nbsp; You won't be =
sweeping any floors here, doll.... =3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">you'll be working right along side us =
getting ready for a =3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">couple of big shows.&nbsp; Now stop =
being an imp!&nbsp; You're =3D</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">confusing all the bungi =
newcomers.&nbsp; Start promoting the E-Tour!</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">There are lots of folks on bungi who =
could benefit from your</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">teaching and workshops while your in =
the US.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">As my grandmother said &quot;...there =
is only nobility of mind&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">North Lights Stained Glass - =
homepage</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"><A =
HREF=3D"http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.=
htm</A> </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 10:03:58 1999
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From: Carolyn Noel <glasscat@infinet.com>
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:33:59 -0500
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References: <<1999Feb17.111958.0>>
Organization: The Stained Glass Place
Precedence: bulk

I've got an Inland Fume Trap and don't care for it. I agree with Mike.
You have to have it within inches of where you're soldering, and it's
pretty loud. 
Carolyn

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 10:31:21 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Lead came types was: Lead Came vs. Foil
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:42:16 +0000
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> I'd like to hear some more about lead came types...Albert mentions
> restoration glass, and my supplier lists regular lead came and two types of
> what they call extra strength cames...#2 alloy (doesn't say alloyed with
> what), and 4% antimony.

Julie Sloan wrote "The Best Alloy for Lead Came" in the September 
1988 issue of Professional Stained Glass. I think Joe Porcelli's 
Glass Craftsman magazine has it as a reprint, although she covers the 
topic in her book, "Conservation of Stained Glass," page 118. See 
http://aiap.com/ [blatant plug ... sorry]


> All the catalog says is that the 4% antimony is for folks who "like a
> workout" when they use lead came...not very enlightening.

The trace elements make the came stiffer, hence the "workout," but 
they also make the came last longer.


> Also curious...merits of flat came vs. rounded came.  I like the look of the
> rounded came much more than the flat, so I work with rounded for purely
> cosmetic reasons.

I think aesthetics are all that come into question in the round vs. 
flat area.

Albert
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 10:35:59 1999
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Subject: Re:  Grinder-free experiment results
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In a message dated 2/18/99 5:24:19 PM, Ensembles@compuserve.com wrote:

>OK folks.  You grinder-less people made me stop
>and re-examine my copper foil construction methods.
> [...]

Hoo boy, did this message remind me of all the "lab reports" I had to write
for my chemistry courses in college! It's as true as ever that "one lab
session is worth a thousand lectures." I'm gonna check this out too.......


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 10:56:35 1999
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From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: music to score by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:48:18 -0600
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>> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
>> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
>> selections to score by?
>>
>> Maureen


Alas... 'music to score by', just doesn't have the same meaning for me that
it did years ago.
Back then it was Dan Fogleberg.  But I wasn't working with glass.  But NOW
in my glass room, I love having some nice music to set to mood for being
both creative and productive.

My far and away FAVORITE is *Loreena McKennitt*.  Her music is haunting and
beautiful.  I love it.  Second best glassworking music for me is the *Les
Miserables* cd set.  AWSOME music.   I never get tired of it.

>From there I get rather ecclectic with things such as Fleetwood Mac, Bonnie
Raitt, Natalie Merchant, Annie Lennox, , Sarah McLachlan, ABBA, Cecilia
Bartoli, Kathleen Battle, and BERNADETTE PETERS (peronal fav.. I know, I'm a
bit weird...).  The list goes on.  'Bout the only thing I can't handle is
really heavy metal.

Yep Suzanne, I love Joni Mitchell, and the Beatles too!

Do any of you get NPR?  National Public Radio?
I've whiled away countless glassroom hours being entertained by NPR.  It's
excellent radio!  Usually classical music, and intelligent talk.

I've even put a 5x5 tv and vcr on my glass table to listen to my favorite
movies while I work.

I'm pretty sure I need an electronics 12 step program.  That's what my
roommates tell me anyhow.

Can any of you suggest a video tape that you KNOW to be good for learning to
work with came.  I have banged my head against it for too long... I want
PROFESSIONAL help!!  I've seen videos advertised for 40 or 50 bucks, but I'd
sure like to know if it's good or not before I drop that kind of money.

Blake
:-)




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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 10:58:45 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: NG Re: music to work by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:51:45 -0600
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> Joan Jet sang Crimson and Clover

Lol... About 20 yrs later I think!  I havent heard that version.
I am thinking maybe Tommy James and the Shondells?  
Anybody know?  It is driving me crazy now.
Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 11:12:36 1999
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Subject: Re: music to work by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 11:56:26 -0600
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> in re: to sales:
> I am new at stained glass and I have gaps in my work that I just cant seem
> to get rid of,  even with grinding.
> I have ordered some pattern books off the net and am going to keep plugging
> away at it.
> Maybe that is the situation with the gentleman who had the stained glass at
> the sale.  If that is the case then I'm sure he would be very appreciative
> of your tact and hope he is not a member (lurker) here trying to learn a
> little about how to correct his gaps and bad solder.


I didnt mean to be disrespectful about him.  My soldering is not perfect
by a long shot.
The man who had the glass was not the person that made them. Even if he
was on the list, he wouldnt recognise himself.
What I was wondering, was if some people solder the way this work was
soldered, *on purpose*, to try to make the panel appear old?  It appears
to me that they werent attempting to get a smooth bead.

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 11:28:13 1999
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Subject: Re: Grinder-free experiment results
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Congratulations, Christie.  I like your pioneering spirit so much I have
decided to try it myself.  (I said to myself, if Christie's not afraid to
try it, I can do it too.)  Did you by any chance determine amount of time
saved?  Peggy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 11:50:04 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:01:51 -0500
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Carolyn Noel wrote:
> 
> I've got an Inland Fume Trap and don't care for it. I agree with Mike.
> You have to have it within inches of where you're soldering, and it's
> pretty loud.
> Carolyn
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


currently mine is full of solder. i guess some of the solder is carried
off with the fumes. there's enough in there, that i had to scrape it
because the fan was clicking against it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 11:59:20 1999
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Subject: Re: music to score by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:00:31
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At 11:48 AM 2/19/99 -0600, gecko@ipa.net wrote:
<snip>
>Can any of you suggest a video tape that you KNOW to be good for learning to
>work with came.  I have banged my head against it for too long... I want
>PROFESSIONAL help!!  I've seen videos advertised for 40 or 50 bucks, but I'd
>sure like to know if it's good or not before I drop that kind of money.

imho, it is a LOT easier to learn if you are next to someone doing it and
can ask questions, rather than watching on video. ask your local shop when
they're doing a lead panel and if can you watch.

regards,
charlie
phx, az
--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 12:20:07 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: dodgestudio@juno.com
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Subject: Re: Cutting Techniques
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:30:50 EST
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In a message dated 2/18/99 9:34:44 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dodgestudio@juno.com writes:

<< They sure wouldn't be so cavalier in selecting an instructor for CPR  (I
 hope!)  ;-)
 
 Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
  >>

As you know, you must be certified by the American Red Cross to teach
CPR.  Perhaps the IGGA, should certiify instructors.  I would volunteer to 
write/develop the program materials - I have a work/educational background
in instructional technology.
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 12:35:56 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:34:50 -0500
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Hi Bob-

If you haven't read Julie Sloan's book "Conservation of Stained
Glass in America", I would highly recommend it.  Michael didn't
think he could learn anymore about restoration after 25 years....
but he did from Julie's book.  And we've changed some of our
procedures as a result.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 12:56:50 1999
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:15:19 -0800
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Wow, 
Does that mean, if you didn't have the trap, that solder would have been
in YOUR lungs??????
Inquiring minds want to know!!
Shirley B
> currently mine is full of solder. i guess some of the solder is carried
> off with the fumes. there's enough in there, that i had to scrape it
> because the fan was clicking against it.
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 13:01:35 1999
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From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
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Subject: Beginner classes
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:39:29 -0000
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There has been a lot of discussion on classes - and I am searching for a
class for a beginner.  Any tips from the "veterans" on finding the right
instructor and class?   Thanks for any help - I enjoy reading the
discussions.  thanks - Tami

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 13:25:43 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Re: Lead came types was: Lead Came vs. Foil
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Message text written by "Albert Lewis"
>
I think aesthetics are all that come into question in the round vs. =

flat area.
<

And if you're really into aesthetics, try the colonial profile lead came.=
..
very attractive surface relief and makes the whole window look thicker
and richer. Oh, but what a bear to work with especially with bevels -
even makes my husband groan in despair.  I wouldn't go out of my
way to use it - I guess I'm just too lazy. =


Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 13:30:33 1999
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Subject: Re: glass/music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 12:43:28 -0600
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> Hi...
>         If you like the Squirrel Nut Zippers you might enjoy the Cherry Poppin
> Daddies.... I listen to them a lot but not while doing glass cause they
> make me wanna dance......
> 


Well, I have only heard *of the SNZ's but never the CPD's.
But the old stuff I like so much makes me wanna dance...and you know
what?  I do, when cutting.  You can even throw in a little spin between
scores! ;o)  My workshop, being in my sunroom...blinds up, no curtains..
I'm sure I am a real odd sight sometimes.  

My husband borrowed a tool from my next door neighbor one day, and his
wife said "You're wife is driving me crazy, I am so curious!  What is
she *doing* over there??" lol...  My husband said..."She drives me crazy
too!" *then* he told her what I do in there! ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 14:08:39 1999
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Subject: RE: music to work by
Date: Fri Feb 19 12:47:03 1999
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This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5C46.C3AA1F88
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Suzanne

You are making me feel ancient. I haven't listened to Iron Butterfly in more
years than I care to think about,
but just the thought takes me back.  The same goes for Grand Funk and Van
Morrission. The Beatles never appealed to me. I'll take the Grateful Dead
and Doors over them any day. 

My LP (those funny 12" vinyl discs for the younger folks) collection spans
the spectrum from classic to jazz to R&B to rock & roll and on it goes. It
also goes from popular to obscure. Any one remember Gun Hill Road??? 

You know the weekend is going to be spent getting reacquainted with old
friends and it's Suzannes fault. 

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 

PS think it was Tommy James & The Shondells who did the Crimson and Clover
from the 60's. Joan Jett was much latter.

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Suzanne [mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com]
		Sent:	Friday, February 19, 1999 1:57 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	music to work by

		> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but
usually always
		> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.
Any other music
		> selections to score by?
		> 
		> Maureen

		So nice to work in *my* shop!  I control the music! ;o)

		I like the to score to stuff that reminds me of my teen
years and being
		chased by boys! ;o)  Grand Funk Railroad...IRon
Butterfly....
		and cant remember who did it but..."Crimson and Clover", of
course..the
		Beattles...please please me...and the guess who....Van
Morrison...the
		list goes on.....Joni Mitchell....Paul Simon....

		I have a pretty cool stereo system all hooked up in the
workshop...My
		big old pioneer speakers...a cassette deck, cd player and
amp.  

		When soldering I listen to Kenny Loggins, Seals and
Crofts...mellower
		music.

		When my husband comes out to help he puts on stuff that I
like, but for
		some reason is hard for me to work by and it irritates me.
I cant work
		to the Neville Brothers, but I really like them otherwise.

		Suzanne
		-- 
		"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
		Sometimes winning is just finishing."
		Manuel Diotte
		----
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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Suzanne</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You are making me feel ancient. I =
haven't listened to Iron Butterfly in more years than I care to think =
about,</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">but just the thought takes me =
back.&nbsp; The same goes for Grand Funk and Van Morrission. The =
Beatles never appealed to me. I'll take the Grateful Dead and Doors =
over them any day. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My LP (those funny 12&quot; vinyl =
discs for the younger folks) collection spans the spectrum from classic =
to jazz to R&amp;B to rock &amp; roll and on it goes. It also goes from =
popular to obscure. Any one remember Gun Hill Road??? </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You know the weekend is going to be =
spent getting reacquainted with old friends and it's Suzannes fault. =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><A HREF=3D"mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">PS think it was Tommy James &amp; The =
Shondells who did the Crimson and Clover from the 60's. Joan Jett was =
much latter.</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Suzanne [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com">mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com</A>]</F=
ONT></B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, February 19, 1999 1:57 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">music to work by</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I usually have music going.&nbsp; =
Depending on my mood, but usually always</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; uplifting.&nbsp; Last time it =
was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.&nbsp; Any other music</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; selections to score by?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Maureen</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So nice to work in *my* shop!&nbsp; I =
control the music! ;o)</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I like the to score to stuff that =
reminds me of my teen years and being</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">chased by boys! ;o)&nbsp; Grand Funk =
Railroad...IRon Butterfly....</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and cant remember who did it =
but...&quot;Crimson and Clover&quot;, of course..the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Beattles...please please me...and the =
guess who....Van Morrison...the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">list goes on.....Joni =
Mitchell....Paul Simon....</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have a pretty cool stereo system all =
hooked up in the workshop...My</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">big old pioneer speakers...a cassette =
deck, cd player and amp.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">When soldering I listen to Kenny =
Loggins, Seals and Crofts...mellower</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">music.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">When my husband comes out to help he =
puts on stuff that I like, but for</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">some reason is hard for me to work by =
and it irritates me.&nbsp; I cant work</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the Neville Brothers, but I really =
like them otherwise.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Suzanne</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-- </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;Winning isn't always finishing =
first. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sometimes winning is just =
finishing.&quot;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Manuel Diotte</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 14:08:58 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: music to work by
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:58:59 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.85859.0>
References: <<BF25963478F6D1118A3200A0C9B425236C69CC@corpntex01.ctronsoft.com>>
Precedence: bulk

> My LP (those funny 12" vinyl discs for the younger folks) collection spans the spectrum from classic to jazz to R&B to rock & roll
> and on it goes. It also goes from popular to obscure. Any one remember Gun Hill Road??? 
> 
> You know the weekend is going to be spent getting reacquainted with old friends and it's Suzannes fault. 

Maybe you wont feel so ancient afterwards! ;o)
Hey, Im not old, btw.
Since I no longer have a working turntable, my husband and I pulled out
our massive collection of albums, and put them in a garage sale.  We
made $700 on that sale~!  Most all of the $$ went into SG stuff! ;o)

The record collectors/and resalers showed up, and had a blast.  We had
some good stuff.  Offered me some pretty good money for my old Beatles
albums, even have the recalled *butcher* cover album.  I refused to sell
those.  Maybe when I **really need money for glass.  I just wish we had
all that we sold replaced on CD's.  Nope, dont know Gun Hill Road.

Hey, Vic, dont forget Santana.  That'd make for some good working music.

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
----
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From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: RE: Beginner classes
Date: Fri Feb 19 13:41:19 1999
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I would check the local shops and ask if you can watch a class currently
going on.  

Look at the obvious stuff first. Teachers attitude; how many people in the
class; enough room to work?
Then look at the less obvious. Safety: every one wearing glasses; good
ventilation; is the place relatively clean; how are the bath rooms; is the
instructor also running the store during class? Are there enough common
tools? (Most shops let you use some of their tools during class; squares,
grinders (lets not start that discussion again) and other non-basic tools.)
Also notice the price on supplies. Try to look at the same items in each
store. Foil, solder and a general idea of how much glass cost. The glass is
hard to price because price is effected by the different types and
manufactures so just go for ball park amounts. 
Finally ask questions. How much does the class cost and what is covered. How
much for the "basic tools"? Can he give you a list of what tools you need?
What do you need aside from the tools? 
Listen to what the students are saying. Are they having fun?

I can go on but you get the general idea. Most of all trust your instincts.
You should enjoy learning it should not be a chore. When I took my first
class it was a highlight of the week. 

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Tami Siddens [mailto:tamis@soltec.net]
		Sent:	Friday, February 19, 1999 9:39 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	Beginner classes

		There has been a lot of discussion on classes - and I am
searching for a
		class for a beginner.  Any tips from the "veterans" on
finding the right
		instructor and class?   Thanks for any help - I enjoy
reading the
		discussions.  thanks - Tami

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I would check the local shops and ask =
if you can watch a class currently going on.&nbsp; </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Look at the obvious stuff first. =
Teachers attitude; how many people in the class; enough room to =
work?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Then look at the less obvious. =
Safety: every one wearing glasses; good ventilation; is the place =
relatively clean; how are the bath rooms; is the instructor also =
running the store during class? Are there enough common tools? (Most =
shops let you use some of their tools during class; squares, grinders =
(lets not start that discussion again) and other non-basic tools.) Also =
notice the price on supplies. Try to look at the same items in each =
store. Foil, solder and a general idea of how much glass cost. The =
glass is hard to price because price is effected by the different types =
and manufactures so just go for ball park amounts. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Finally ask questions. How much does =
the class cost and what is covered. How much for the &quot;basic =
tools&quot;? Can he give you a list of what tools you need? What do you =
need aside from the tools? </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Listen to what the students are =
saying. Are they having fun?</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I can go on but you get the general =
idea. Most of all trust your instincts. You should enjoy learning it =
should not be a chore. When I took my first class it was a highlight of =
the week. </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tami Siddens [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:tamis@soltec.net">mailto:tamis@soltec.net</A>]</FONT></B>=

<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, February 19, 1999 9:39 AM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Beginner classes</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">There has been a lot of discussion on =
classes - and I am searching for a</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">class for a beginner.&nbsp; Any tips =
from the &quot;veterans&quot; on finding the right</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">instructor and class?&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Thanks for any help - I enjoy reading the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">discussions.&nbsp; thanks - =
Tami</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
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to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
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glass@bungi.com</FONT>
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 14:38:58 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:31:29 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: ior.com!glshorse
From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: Mosfunland@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: glass/music
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:11:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.51122.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.44520.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Mosfunland@aol.com wrote:
> 
> I have a grinder, its sitting in an infant oxygen tent for a spew cover.
> There it sits.
> I like the sound of scoring glass, I like the snap, I like the ring of a new
> sheet.  I like the tapping of my hammer to set nails.  I like the sizzle of
> solder.
> 
>  The dag-gum grinder noise makes my blood run cold.
> 
> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
> selections to score by?
> 
> Maureen
> ----
Shania. Dixie Chicks. Bruce Springsteen. Jazz. Enya. Gloria Estefan. All
depends on the mood I am in. Just not classical...no no no no... no
quicker way to get me into a bad mood.
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 14:51:29 1999
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From: MISGLAS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: RE: Music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:45:36 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.214536.0>
Precedence: bulk

what is a squirrel nut zipper?  Kathi from Wisconsin
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 14:58:26 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Lead Came vs. Foil
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 13:30:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.53047.0>
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>>Hi Bob-

If you haven't read Julie Sloan's book "Conservation of Stained
Glass in America", I would highly recommend it.  Michael didn't
think he could learn anymore about restoration after 25 years....
but he did from Julie's book.  And we've changed some of our
procedures as a result.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios<<

Got the book about ten or twelve years ago when it first came out.
Lent it out a couple of years ago and it does not look like I will get
it back. I notice that it was republished in 1995 and have ordered a
new copy today. Thanks for the thought.

The repair of cracked glass by using modern adhesives is a good idea
and I recall well covered in the Sloan book but I perfer to use came
because so many old windows show evidence of repair in that way. Think
it would be the way to go on a painted face rather than came.

For missing painted glass I can call on the services of John Bera, a
noted expert. He can copy just about anything by turning his talent
down a notch or two. :-) Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 15:01:44 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:29:01 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.10291.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.41519.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> Wow, 
> Does that mean, if you didn't have the trap, that solder would have been
> in YOUR lungs??????
> Inquiring minds want to know!!
> Shirley B
> > currently mine is full of solder. i guess some of the solder is carried
> > off with the fumes. there's enough in there, that i had to scrape it
> > because the fan was clicking against it.
> ----

Sounds to me like it *will* be there as well...without a respirator.
That's darn scary.  

Hmmmm...and my mother just said she'd get me a filter for my birthday..
maybe I need to rethink my *wish* list.

Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 16:02:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Beginner classes
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:34:45 -0500
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See if one of your local colleges has an artisan's program... one
would presume that they have some minimum standards since
the classes are taken for college credit.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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X-Path: mindspring.com!pigznpawz
From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: copper sulfate
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:32:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.133217.0>
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone ever used the copper sulfate crystals for making copper patina?
Do you just mix it with water?  Did you like it?  It seems like a good way
to make small batches at a time.  In the past, I think I've thrown away two
(mostly full) bottles that went bad before I used them up.

Jerri

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 16:30:41 1999
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X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "Dale Bentley" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: <MISGLAS@aol.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:48:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.114840.0>
Precedence: bulk

Great Band!!!  Found the review below at music blvd.

anyone interested can listen to sound samples there www.musicblvd.com and=
 at
other online music stores:



by SMITH GALTNEY, SPIN
September 1997



exposure

Squirrel Nut Zippers

The New Traditionalists Squirrel Nut Zippers want to party like it's 1929.

SINCE TOM MAXWELL quit life as a rock drummer and hooked up with the
neo-trad "hot jazz" combo Squirrel Nut Zippers, he's been inspired by mor=
e
than just his Cab Calloway records. "The thing that really flew at me," h=
e
says, "was when my parents told me they danced to our record -- which, wh=
en
I was in rock bands, wasn't happening. I'd never seen them dance before.
They can dance like fiends. I was thrilled!"

If there were ever an award for Group Most Unlikely to Crash the Top 20, =
the
Squirrel Nut Zippers would have once been shoo-ins. But here they are -- =
in
vintage pinstriped suits, slicked-back hair, and a sound squeezed from a
Victrola -- amid Hanson and the Spice Girls, stirring up a brew of Dixiel=
and
brass and early swing like the Depression never ended. What's more, it's =
no
ironic put-on. "None of us go for the silly tongue-in-cheek way of
expressing yourself that's very popular now," says Maxwell. "We want to m=
ove
people. We want to convert people. We want to testify."

Forming four years ago outside of Chapel Hill, North Carolina, the band -=
-
singer/guitarist Maxwell, singer/guitarist Jimbo Mathus, singer/banjoist
Katharine Whalen, saxman Ken Mosher, drummer Chris Phillips, trumpet play=
er
Je Widenhouse, and bassist Stu Cole -- began as an informal gathering in =
an
old, dilapidated house Mathus and Whalen shared. As word of their USO-lik=
e
live shows spread like kudzu, the group discovered a novel way to supplem=
ent
touring costs: commanding top dollar at local millionaires' weddings, an =
apt
credential considering that the Zippers' shindigs draw old folks as well =
as
the collegiate crowd. "We always wanted our shows to be a thing where we =
all
dressed up and entertained," says Whalen. "It makes it more special than
just a throw-on-your-jeans-and-T-shirt kind of thing."

Still, these old-world throwbacks claim plenty of modern eccentricities -=
-
sax player Ken Mosher has a nose ring! -- some of which even extend to th=
eir
music. "If you take away everything from the song 'Got My Own Thing Now,'=
 "
explains Mosher with a sly grin, "the drum part is almost the exact same
pattern as 'I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts' by X."

SMITH GALTNEY

Copyright =A9 SPIN: new music and youth culture.
back to the Newsstand



-----Original Message-----
From: MISGLAS@aol.com <MISGLAS@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: Music


>what is a squirrel nut zipper?  Kathi from Wisconsin
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 16:57:33 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:10:23 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:10:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.141013.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.41519.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> Wow,
> Does that mean, if you didn't have the trap, that solder would have been
> in YOUR lungs??????
> Inquiring minds want to know!!
> Shirley B
> > currently mine is full of solder. i guess some of the solder is carried
> > off with the fumes. there's enough in there, that i had to scrape it
> > because the fan was clicking against it.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


could be... i know a few of them are splats of solder. my guess is that
you would have to be breathing it in within the first 3 inches. but who
knows... all i know is, is that i had to scrape down the sides of the
fan because the sound was driving me nuts.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 17:04:25 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:14:15 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: "Music to score by"
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:14:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.141416.0>
Precedence: bulk

"Luna Negra" by Ottmar Liebert , Billy Joel, Bruce Springstien, Goo Goo
Dolls,Rod Stewart, The John Boy and Billy Show [ in the mornings] Shagging
at theBeach [at night].

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 17:29:20 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:14:02 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: MISGLAS@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:13:29 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.141329.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.214536.0>>
Precedence: bulk

MISGLAS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> what is a squirrel nut zipper?  Kathi from Wisconsin
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it's a candy bar in south made up with peanuts and caramel. but it's
also a new band that plays swing music. not quite swing, it's more of a
dixieland, 20'-30's type music. some of it has a doom theme, other's a
more uplifting...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 17:34:47 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 16:18:19 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Go for it!
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 19:18:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.141817.0>
Precedence: bulk

Go for it girl, I know you always finish first! Let me know how the concrete
turns out...that is what I will be doing by next weekend with my stone
project....goodnight, Abbie

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 17:53:35 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!charles_spitzer
From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: copper sulfate
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 17:26:16
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990219172616.0097ed30@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
Precedence: bulk

yes, i've used it. make sure you use distilled water. you can also put a
couple grains of salt in to darken the patina.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

>Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:32:17 -0500
>Subject: copper sulfate
>Sender: pigznpawz@mindspring.com
>From: pigznpawz@mindspring.com
>To: glass@bungi.com
>
>Has anyone ever used the copper sulfate crystals for making copper patina?
>Do you just mix it with water?  Did you like it?  It seems like a good way
>to make small batches at a time.  In the past, I think I've thrown away two
>(mostly full) bottles that went bad before I used them up.
>
>Jerri

--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 18:31:31 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:02:47 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Music To Work By
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:54:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.155435.0>
Precedence: bulk

How about Paul Whiteman, Harry James, The Dorsey Brothers, Louie Prima,
Spike Jones, Gene Krupa, Al Hirt, Pete Fountain,    GOOD MUSIC    Bing
Crosby
and his brother Bob, and more....HEAVY SIGH

Arnold

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 19:30:33 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:47:36 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: banet.net!gmanning
From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Beginner classes
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:45:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.164516.0>
References: <<1999Feb20.111919.0>>
Precedence: bulk

All of the E-Mails that I receive  from you are blank.
Does anyone else have this problem?
Goldpaws

daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 20:00:59 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:52:37 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: i2020.net!wickline
From: "Robert G. and Rebecca T. Wickline" <wickline@i2020.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: What to do while scoring.
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:01:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.1719.0>
Precedence: bulk

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M````````````````````````````$;NJ_P````!(87!P>2!.97<@665A<B`Q
M.3DY("$A````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
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M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M```````````````````````````````````````````````````!`&@!```6
M,$8P7C!P,'LPD#"B,*LPL3"W,,8PS##6,-PP`3$',0PQ$C$8,38Q2#%/,54Q
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M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
M````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
*````````````````
`
end

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 20:25:32 1999
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:52:45 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Music To Work By
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:57:12 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.145712.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.155435.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> How about Paul Whiteman, Harry James, The Dorsey Brothers, Louie Prima,
> Spike Jones, Gene Krupa, Al Hirt, Pete Fountain,    GOOD MUSIC    Bing
> Crosby
> and his brother Bob, and more....HEAVY SIGH
> 
> Arnold
> 

Arnold, you wild child!  If you can dance like my Dad... I would listen
to anything with you, anytime.  There's nothing like a man that can lead
a woman to look like *she knows how to dance! ;o)

You and my Dad could be big pals.  Hey, you could have gone to
highschool with each other! ;o)

Ok ok...gonna call me smarty again? ;o)

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:27:07 1999
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Received: by daver.bungi.com
	via smail with stdio
	id <m10E2X7-0000INa@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:52:45 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Music To Work By
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:57:12 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.145712.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.155435.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> How about Paul Whiteman, Harry James, The Dorsey Brothers, Louie Prima,
> Spike Jones, Gene Krupa, Al Hirt, Pete Fountain,    GOOD MUSIC    Bing
> Crosby
> and his brother Bob, and more....HEAVY SIGH
> 
> Arnold
> 

Arnold, you wild child!  If you can dance like my Dad... I would listen
to anything with you, anytime.  There's nothing like a man that can lead
a woman to look like *she knows how to dance! ;o)

You and my Dad could be big pals.  Hey, you could have gone to
highschool with each other! ;o)

Ok ok...gonna call me smarty again? ;o)

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:27:36 1999
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com
	via smail with stdio
	id <m10E2YM-0000aNa@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 18:54:02 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: i2020.net!wickline
From: "Robert G. and Rebecca T. Wickline" <wickline@i2020.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: What to do while scoring.
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:49:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.164949.0>
Organization: Personal
Precedence: bulk

    I like to listen to music too while I'm cutting.  Since I'm a parrot
head Jimmy Buffet is usually on.  The best thing though is a taped
book.  I put a book on casette and can listen and concentrate on my work
no one better disturb me.  I have been through many tapes and will
listen to them over and over.
    I also use the casette as a timer.  After front and back I need to
take a break.  Stretch the back, visit girls room, speak to family etc.
    I've got to try to find something I can listen to while grinding.
Yes, I am a grinder junkie.  I will try to improve but I think I will
never be able to give it up completely.
       Add this to the variety of things to do while scoring.
                Becky

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:38:12 1999
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
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	id <m10E3fk-0000hxa@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:05:44 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: aol.com!Beveler4
From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NPR
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:03:58 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.4358.0>
Precedence: bulk

NPR is my favorite also. I especially like the show at night that John
D'Laberto hosts called Echos.I listen to that in my shop all of the time.Some
of my favorite artists are not well known to most Vangelis, Patrick O'Hearn,
Mark Dwayne, Jeff Pearce, Enya and Lorenna McKinnet and Clannad are also on my
list.I still enjoy the groups of old like Santana, TheByrds,Pink Floyd,and on
and on and on. Hey and lets not forget Ravi Shankar!!!!! Beveler4 showing some
age (Stan) 
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:38:15 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Music To Work By
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:39:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.173925.0>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne, Yes, I waltz, fox trot, rhumba, lindy [jitter bug], polka, and all
kinds of good stuff.  Your Dad and I am from the same era, but I think that
I have a few years on him.  He probably was in high school when I was in
Korea, in 1950 & 51.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Granny And PawPaw <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
Cc: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Music To Work By


>> How about Paul Whiteman, Harry James, The Dorsey Brothers, Louie Prima,
>> Spike Jones, Gene Krupa, Al Hirt, Pete Fountain,    GOOD MUSIC    Bing
>> Crosby
>> and his brother Bob, and more....HEAVY SIGH
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>
>Arnold, you wild child!  If you can dance like my Dad... I would listen
>to anything with you, anytime.  There's nothing like a man that can lead
>a woman to look like *she knows how to dance! ;o)
>
>You and my Dad could be big pals.  Hey, you could have gone to
>highschool with each other! ;o)
>
>Ok ok...gonna call me smarty again? ;o)
>
>T Suz
>--
>"Winning isn't always finishing first.
>Sometimes winning is just finishing."
>Manuel Diotte
>

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:48:25 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: show ?'s
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 21:50:31 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.155031.0>
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Hi y'all! ;o)

Me again..quit groaning..

A fellow Bungian and I are discussing the idea of doing a show together.
We have about the same amount of show experience..(slim).  We have
exchanged pics and like each others work.  

It would not be competitive between us, but more of a help to each of
us...in terms of sharing display, expenses...everything.  2 can do it
cheaper than 1...and we could have fun doing it.  Between the 2
personalities, I think we would boost each others sales.  

Do shows allow this?
Is there a secret to doing this?  Do we have to pretend to be a company?
Can 2 people do a show together like that?  Both of us have could use
the others inventory to pad theirs,  so we look like we have more.

Any advice at all, we would appreciate.  What do we need to think about
that we may not be?

Thanks.

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:50:37 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Grinder-free experiment results
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 20:15:03 -0800
Message-ID: <199902200415.UAA10710@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Over the past year, the "to grind or not to grind" thread has reared its
head with amazing regularity, with slightly different emphasis each time.
I've been constantly and quietly working at improving my cutting techniques
to eliminate grinding time.  I don't have hard numbers for this, but I know
the number of pieces I grind when completing a panel is WAY WAY down.  

Last month I took out a production piece I make and sell several times a
year.  I usually have a couple cut and squirreled away for orders.  I was
absolutely appalled at how long it took me to grind this piece to fit.  I
then cut out, foiled and soldered another one (had 2 fish orders), and it
took noticeably less time due to the improved cutting accuracy.

I encourage everyonew, newbies and pros alike to set themselves a personal
challenge to improve their cutting accuracy.  

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 21:57:54 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: copper sulfate
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 22:48:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.174825.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Jerri-

Mike says you just mix it with water, it works great, and he =

doesn't know why yours would have gone bad.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 22:00:17 1999
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From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Tami - Beginner classes 
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:00:59 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.17059.0>
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Hello Tami,

I don't remember a bio from you. How about send me one to post to the group.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tami Siddens <tamis@soltec.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 3:11 PM
Subject: Beginner classes


>There has been a lot of discussion on classes - and I am searching for a
>class for a beginner.  Any tips from the "veterans" on finding the right
>instructor and class?   Thanks for any help - I enjoy reading the
>discussions.  thanks - Tami
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 22:01:15 1999
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From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: NG Music
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:10:20 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.171020.0>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne et al.

Dancing to the music. I had a large brick planter built on the atrium of my
house. I started filling it with soil by the wheelbarrow full. Got the
boom-box cranked up and and Aretha Franklin came on "RESPECT" got to dancing
on top of the planter with a broom. Really got wrapped up and felt like
somebody was watching me.... they were as a matter of fact they had stopped
their car on the street and were starring and laughing. Embarrassed, I had
to think quickly, I looked up and shouted .... come on over and join me
..... I've got more brooms...... They sped off ....... Did it stop
me......... Heck no.



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 22:33:11 1999
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From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:45:15 -0600
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>The best thing though is a taped
>book.  I put a book on casette and can listen and concentrate on my work
>no one better disturb me.  I have been through many tapes and will
>listen to them over and over.

Excellent idea!
(another electronic device I can put in my glassroom!)
I love books on tape!  (yes... I read too..)  Especially the ones read by
either the author or a very talented reader.  (Tim Curry could read stereo
instructions and make them fascinating!)

I use books on tape when I have to drive a long time.  I get them from my
library.  What a wonderful idea... now I'll have a reason to work my way
through the library's whole tape selection.

P.S. - Parrot head here too.  :-)



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 22:42:32 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Allentown Explosion?
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 23:44:42 -0600
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Just heard on my moms list that there was a big explosion in
Allentown,Pa?

What do any of you know about it?  Everyone Ok?

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 23:03:27 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>,
Subject: Re: Beginner classes
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:15:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.201542.0>
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Thats because they are being sent in MIMIE format and not plain text.
Some mail programs can't read them, yours must be one of them that can't.

Karen
Think Spring!
giapet@softhouse.com


>All of the E-Mails that I receive  from you are blank.
>Does anyone else have this problem?
>Goldpaws
>
>daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 23:24:14 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Happy 99
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 01:42:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.204216.0>
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Becky,

You're probably aware of it by now, but just in case you're not,  You had
the Happy 99 exe attached to your last post to Bungi.

I don't have the cure but someone will repost it, I'm sure.

Karen




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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 23:25:31 1999
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X-Path: ior.com!glshorse
From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: Dale Bentley <bankers@ictc.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Music
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:47:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.144746.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.114840.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Dale Bentley wrote:
> 
> Great Band!!!  Found the review below at music blvd.
> 
> anyone interested can listen to sound samples there www.musicblvd.com and=
>  at
> other online music stores:
> 
> by SMITH GALTNEY, SPIN
> September 1997
> 
> exposure
> 
> Squirrel Nut Zippers
> 
> The New Traditionalists Squirrel Nut Zippers want to party like it's 1929.
> 
> SINCE TOM MAXWELL quit life as a rock drummer and hooked up with the
> neo-trad "hot jazz" combo Squirrel Nut Zippers, he's been inspired by mor=
> e
> than just his Cab Calloway records. "The thing that really flew at me," h=
> e
> says, "was when my parents told me they danced to our record -- which, wh=
> en
> I was in rock bands, wasn't happening. I'd never seen them dance before.
> They can dance like fiends. I was thrilled!"
> 
> If there were ever an award for Group Most Unlikely to Crash the Top 20, =
> the
> Squirrel Nut Zippers would have once been shoo-ins. But here they are -- =
> in
> vintage pinstriped suits, slicked-back hair, and a sound squeezed from a
> Victrola -- amid Hanson and the Spice Girls, stirring up a brew of Dixiel=
> and
> brass and early swing like the Depression never ended. What's more, it's =
> no
> ironic put-on. "None of us go for the silly tongue-in-cheek way of
> expressing yourself that's very popular now," says Maxwell. "We want to m=
> ove
> people. We want to convert people. We want to testify."
> 
> Forming four years ago outside of Chapel Hill, North Carolina, the band -=
> -
> singer/guitarist Maxwell, singer/guitarist Jimbo Mathus, singer/banjoist
> Katharine Whalen, saxman Ken Mosher, drummer Chris Phillips, trumpet play=
> er
> Je Widenhouse, and bassist Stu Cole -- began as an informal gathering in =
> an
> old, dilapidated house Mathus and Whalen shared. As word of their USO-lik=
> e
> live shows spread like kudzu, the group discovered a novel way to supplem=
> ent
> touring costs: commanding top dollar at local millionaires' weddings, an =
> apt
> credential considering that the Zippers' shindigs draw old folks as well =
> as
> the collegiate crowd. "We always wanted our shows to be a thing where we =
> all
> dressed up and entertained," says Whalen. "It makes it more special than
> just a throw-on-your-jeans-and-T-shirt kind of thing."
> 
> Still, these old-world throwbacks claim plenty of modern eccentricities -=
> -
> sax player Ken Mosher has a nose ring! -- some of which even extend to th=
> eir
> music. "If you take away everything from the song 'Got My Own Thing Now,'=
>  "
> explains Mosher with a sly grin, "the drum part is almost the exact same
> pattern as 'I Must Not Think Bad Thoughts' by X."
> 
> SMITH GALTNEY
> 
> Copyright =A9 SPIN: new music and youth culture.
> back to the Newsstand
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: MISGLAS@aol.com <MISGLAS@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 5:09 PM
> Subject: RE: Music
> 
> >what is a squirrel nut zipper?  Kathi from Wisconsin
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> 

oh, OK....yeah, I have noticed swing is very very big...at my daughters
dance school they have swing classes for the teens...love the
music...looks like a lot of fun....
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 23:34:41 1999
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X-Path: ior.com!glshorse
From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: "Robert G. and Rebecca T. Wickline" <wickline@i2020.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:49:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.144934.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.164949.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Robert G. and Rebecca T. Wickline wrote:
> 
>     I like to listen to music too while I'm cutting.  Since I'm a parrot
> head Jimmy Buffet is usually on.  The best thing though is a taped
> book.  I put a book on casette and can listen and concentrate on my work
> no one better disturb me.  I have been through many tapes and will
> listen to them over and over.
>     I also use the casette as a timer.  After front and back I need to
> take a break.  Stretch the back, visit girls room, speak to family etc.
>     I've got to try to find something I can listen to while grinding.
> Yes, I am a grinder junkie.  I will try to improve but I think I will
> never be able to give it up completely.
>        Add this to the variety of things to do while scoring.
>                 Becky
> 
> ----
>oh yes, I forgot Jimmy Buffett:)
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 19 23:53:16 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:52:40 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.145240.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.174515.0>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Blake, Wayne, & Susan wrote:
> 
> >The best thing though is a taped
> >book.  I put a book on casette and can listen and concentrate on my work
> >no one better disturb me.  I have been through many tapes and will
> >listen to them over and over.
> 
> Excellent idea!
> (another electronic device I can put in my glassroom!)
> I love books on tape!  (yes... I read too..)  Especially the ones read by
> either the author or a very talented reader.  (Tim Curry could read stereo
> instructions and make them fascinating!)
> 
> I use books on tape when I have to drive a long time.  I get them from my
> library.  What a wonderful idea... now I'll have a reason to work my way
> through the library's whole tape selection.
> 
> P.S. - Parrot head here too.  :-)
> 
> ----
never tried books on tape.....love Stephen King...but that might be too
distracting while you are trying to concentrate on something
nitpicky.....nah...think I'll stick to music to work by.  
oh, and nobody mentioned the Grateful Dead.......I'll throw that one
in....
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 00:05:11 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Glass Instructors
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 02:14:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb19.21141.0>
Precedence: bulk

Peggy,

This is a tough call.  I think that it would have to be more a testing
procedure than a fixed set of requirements.  First and most basic the
instructor must demonstrate the ability to execute a simple project in a
professional manner while being observed.  This would include cutting
accurately and exhibiting proficiency with an iron.  I think you'd need
separate certifications for foil and came technique.  (And for slumping,
fusing etc?)

Next there would have to be some kind of written test to see if there is
an understanding of theory as well.  It is very possible to successfully
manipulate the materials yet not know why it works.  That would be just
great except that you need to be able to explain why it works.  Some
people are happy to just learn it by rote, others learn better when they
understand the objectives.

Finally, and this is really asking a lot, but the best instructor needs
to be analytical, intuitive, patient, reassuring and a good communicator.
 You need to be able to tell the difference between a student whose glass
doesn't break because the score line is bad and the student with
apparently the same problem who is actually just paralyzed with fear. 
How you test for all of those is a tough question.  

These are some first thoughts on the matter at any rate....

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com




On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) "Peggy W. Johnsen"
<edupjohn@slonet.org> writes:
>
>Like your comments regarding glass instructors.  Hypothetical 
>Question:
>If there were "industry" standards for teaching stained glass, what
>standards would you establish for the teachers?  I posted this as
>hypothetical but I am totally interested in teacher preparation for
>stained glass instructors.  Peggy
>
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: music to work by
Date: Fri Feb 19 23:38:05 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.21165.0>
Precedence: bulk

music to feel old by---
how about good times by sonny and cher...
mountain climbing by mountain...

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616



-----Original Message-----
From: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 5:19 PM
Subject: RE: music to work by


>This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
>this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
>------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5C46.C3AA1F88
>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>Suzanne
>
>You are making me feel ancient. I haven't listened to Iron Butterfly in
more
>years than I care to think about,
>but just the thought takes me back.  The same goes for Grand Funk and Van
>Morrission. The Beatles never appealed to me. I'll take the Grateful Dead
>and Doors over them any day.
>
>My LP (those funny 12" vinyl discs for the younger folks) collection spans
>the spectrum from classic to jazz to R&B to rock & roll and on it goes. It
>also goes from popular to obscure. Any one remember Gun Hill Road???
>
>You know the weekend is going to be spent getting reacquainted with old
>friends and it's Suzannes fault.
>
>Vic M.
>Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
>
>PS think it was Tommy James & The Shondells who did the Crimson and Clover
>from the 60's. Joan Jett was much latter.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Suzanne [mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 19, 1999 1:57 AM
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: music to work by
>
> > I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but
>usually always
> > uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.
>Any other music
> > selections to score by?
> >
> > Maureen
>
> So nice to work in *my* shop!  I control the music! ;o)
>
> I like the to score to stuff that reminds me of my teen
>years and being
> chased by boys! ;o)  Grand Funk Railroad...IRon
>Butterfly....
> and cant remember who did it but..."Crimson and Clover", of
>course..the
> Beattles...please please me...and the guess who....Van
>Morrison...the
> list goes on.....Joni Mitchell....Paul Simon....
>
> I have a pretty cool stereo system all hooked up in the
>workshop...My
> big old pioneer speakers...a cassette deck, cd player and
>amp.
>
> When soldering I listen to Kenny Loggins, Seals and
>Crofts...mellower
> music.
>
> When my husband comes out to help he puts on stuff that I
>like, but for
> some reason is hard for me to work by and it irritates me.
>I cant work
> to the Neville Brothers, but I really like them otherwise.
>
> Suzanne
> --
> "Winning isn't always finishing first.
> Sometimes winning is just finishing."
> Manuel Diotte
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to:
>glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5C46.C3AA1F88
>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
>charset=3Diso-8859-1">
><META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
>5.5.2448.0">
><TITLE>RE: music to work by</TITLE>
></HEAD>
><BODY>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Suzanne</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You are making me feel ancient. I =
>haven't listened to Iron Butterfly in more years than I care to think =
>about,</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">but just the thought takes me =
>back.&nbsp; The same goes for Grand Funk and Van Morrission. The =
>Beatles never appealed to me. I'll take the Grateful Dead and Doors =
>over them any day. </FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">My LP (those funny 12&quot; vinyl =
>discs for the younger folks) collection spans the spectrum from classic =
>to jazz to R&amp;B to rock &amp; roll and on it goes. It also goes from =
>popular to obscure. Any one remember Gun Hill Road??? </FONT></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">You know the weekend is going to be =
>spent getting reacquainted with old friends and it's Suzannes fault. =
></FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
><BR><A HREF=3D"mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com"><U><FONT =
>COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT></U></A>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">PS think it was Tommy James &amp; The =
>Shondells who did the Crimson and Clover from the 60's. Joan Jett was =
>much latter.</FONT>
></P>
><UL><UL>
><P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
>Message-----</FONT></A>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Suzanne [<A =
>HREF=3D"mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com">mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com</A>]</F=
>ONT></B>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
>SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Friday, February 19, 1999 1:57 AM</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
>FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">music to work by</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; I usually have music going.&nbsp; =
>Depending on my mood, but usually always</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; uplifting.&nbsp; Last time it =
>was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.&nbsp; Any other music</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; selections to score by?</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; </FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt; Maureen</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">So nice to work in *my* shop!&nbsp; I =
>control the music! ;o)</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I like the to score to stuff that =
>reminds me of my teen years and being</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">chased by boys! ;o)&nbsp; Grand Funk =
>Railroad...IRon Butterfly....</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and cant remember who did it =
>but...&quot;Crimson and Clover&quot;, of course..the</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Beattles...please please me...and the =
>guess who....Van Morrison...the</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">list goes on.....Joni =
>Mitchell....Paul Simon....</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I have a pretty cool stereo system all =
>hooked up in the workshop...My</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">big old pioneer speakers...a cassette =
>deck, cd player and amp.&nbsp; </FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">When soldering I listen to Kenny =
>Loggins, Seals and Crofts...mellower</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">music.</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">When my husband comes out to help he =
>puts on stuff that I like, but for</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">some reason is hard for me to work by =
>and it irritates me.&nbsp; I cant work</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">to the Neville Brothers, but I really =
>like them otherwise.</FONT>
></P>
>
><P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Suzanne</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-- </FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&quot;Winning isn't always finishing =
>first. </FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sometimes winning is just =
>finishing.&quot;</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Manuel Diotte</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
>to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
>list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
>glass@bungi.com</FONT>
><BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
>HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
>TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
></P>
></UL></UL>
></BODY>
></HTML>
>------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5C46.C3AA1F88--
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 01:22:54 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:36:50 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.83650.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello

Book tapes are good but don't you have plays, magazine programs, discussion
groups etc on the radio over there?

We have some stations that are national - it's a much smaller country with
just one time zone - and although some are all music others have general
topics. There is a huge amount to listen to and I do try to resist dancing
around with sheets of glass in my hands! ;o)

I'd go mad if old steam radio played nothing but music!

What's a Parrot head?

Best regards


BtB




>>The best thing though is a taped
>>book.  I put a book on casette and can listen and concentrate on my work
>>no one better disturb me.  I have been through many tapes and will
>>listen to them over and over.
>
>Excellent idea!
>(another electronic device I can put in my glassroom!)
>I love books on tape!  (yes... I read too..)  Especially the ones read by
>either the author or a very talented reader.  (Tim Curry could read stereo
>instructions and make them fascinating!)
>
>I use books on tape when I have to drive a long time.  I get them from my
>library.  What a wonderful idea... now I'll have a reason to work my way
>through the library's whole tape selection.
>
>P.S. - Parrot head here too.  :-)
>
>


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 01:34:35 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: NG Music
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:20:11 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.82011.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello

Patrick you're a hoot!

I hope your community appreciate you!


Best regards

BtB


-----Original Message-----
From: Pkelly <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: 20 February 1999 06:03
Subject: RE: NG Music


>Suzanne et al.
>
>Dancing to the music. I had a large brick planter built on the atrium of my
>house. I started filling it with soil by the wheelbarrow full. Got the
>boom-box cranked up and and Aretha Franklin came on "RESPECT" got to
dancing
>on top of the planter with a broom. Really got wrapped up and felt like
>somebody was watching me.... they were as a matter of fact they had stopped
>their car on the street and were starring and laughing. Embarrassed, I had
>to think quickly, I looked up and shouted .... come on over and join me
>..... I've got more brooms...... They sped off ....... Did it stop
>me......... Heck no.
>
>
>
>Patrick
>Roses and Rainbows
>
>----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 02:55:06 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!pigznpawz
From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 05:07:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.0712.0>
Precedence: bulk


Thanks Dani and Charles,

    Someone, a while back, told the copper patina gets old.  My results were
very blotchy, and this was after cleaning really well and going over the
solder with steel wool.  A friend brought over her new bottle of patina, and
I had much better results, so I thought it must be that the patina was old,
although I have some old black patina that still works fine.  I've always
used cotton or q-tips and throw away each one after use, so I don't
contaminate.  My friend applies it with a toothbrush.  She always has very
nice results.

Any other suggestions anyone?  I know this has been discussed before, but I
don't remember.

Jerri




Hi Jerri-

Mike says you just mix it with water, it works great, and he
doesn't know why yours would have gone bad.

Best,

Dani

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 04:59:30 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Npr...
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 07:37:41 -0500
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My favorite on NPR is The Thistle and Shamrock, a show of all Celtic music.
Just love it!!!!! Makes you think you are on the high seas sailing,while you
are glassing away, Abbie

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 05:16:15 1999
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From: Pawel Karaszkiewicz <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:40:19 +-100
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.124019.0>
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I've just received Happy 99 virus. Have't opened it and deleted. Is it enough? I remember a discussion about it, but I lost my archive

Pawel

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 05:28:40 1999
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From: Mike Peck <summitstudio@worldnet.att.net>
To: Jerri <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 06:25:32 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.02532.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.133217.0>>
Organization: Summit Stained Glass  (http://www.summitstudio.com)
Precedence: bulk

Jerri,

Copper sulfate in solution is pretty stable and I've not seen any that
looses strength with time.  But, it does contaminate very easily.  I
hope your pouring out any small amount that you need into a clean
container for immediate use, and avoiding putting anything in your stock
bottle.

I've had some problems that I think are related to tap water.  Our water
in Missouri is very hard so just a clean rinse with fresh tap water
doesn't really get the panel clean.  I use water that has been through a
softener and have had minimal problems.  When I do get a stubborn spot
that doesn't seem to take the patina, I use a little steel wool, then
rinse with softened water and that generally takes care of it.

Mike Peck


Jerri wrote:
> 
> Has anyone ever used the copper sulfate crystals for making copper patina?
> Do you just mix it with water?  Did you like it?  It seems like a good way
> to make small batches at a time.  In the past, I think I've thrown away two
> (mostly full) bottles that went bad before I used them up.
> 
> Jerri
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 05:32:26 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Hey Patrick!
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 07:42:36 -0500
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Brooms can be the best partners!  Abbie

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 07:02:15 1999
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From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Pawel Karaszkiewicz <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:33:25 -0800
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I got it to but did not open and deleted it I have only been in this group for a few weeks so I don't know much about it as long as its
deleted from my mail is that enough?????
How can sombody send it without knowing??????
Laura

Pawel Karaszkiewicz wrote:

> I've just received Happy 99 virus. Have't opened it and deleted. Is it enough? I remember a discussion about it, but I lost my archive
>
> Pawel
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 07:16:03 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: dodgestudio@juno.com
Subject: Re: Glass Instructors
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:13:22 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.131322.0>
References: <<1999Feb19.21141.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Peggy, Gary, et. al.

        What you both seem to be suggesting is the kind of thing which
is covered by training for sports coaching.  Most sports have a coaching
organisation which sets standards and training guidelines.  These are
voluntary, but do have the sports body's approval through a
certification procedure.
        One of the USA or UK organisations could set up such a course.
After the initial stage, it could be self-financing - by the
participants - of course, volunteers would be needed to prepare the
standards and to get it started.  It would take time to become
established, just as the coaching schemes in the various sports did.
Now no aspiring sports person would accept systematic coaching from
anyone who didn't have some certification.
        Are there any organisations willing to take this one on?  It
would seem to provide a justification beyond self protection, and
promotion of businesses.

Steve in Scotland

In message <1999Feb19.21141.0@?>, dodgestudio@juno.com writes
>Peggy,
>
>This is a tough call.  I think that it would have to be more a testing
>procedure than a fixed set of requirements.  First and most basic the
>instructor must demonstrate the ability to execute a simple project in a
>professional manner while being observed.  This would include cutting
>accurately and exhibiting proficiency with an iron.  I think you'd need
>separate certifications for foil and came technique.  (And for slumping,
>fusing etc?)
>
>Next there would have to be some kind of written test to see if there is
>an understanding of theory as well.  It is very possible to successfully
>manipulate the materials yet not know why it works.  That would be just
>great except that you need to be able to explain why it works.  Some
>people are happy to just learn it by rote, others learn better when they
>understand the objectives.
>
>Finally, and this is really asking a lot, but the best instructor needs
>to be analytical, intuitive, patient, reassuring and a good communicator.
> You need to be able to tell the difference between a student whose glass
>doesn't break because the score line is bad and the student with
>apparently the same problem who is actually just paralyzed with fear. 
>How you test for all of those is a tough question.  
>
>These are some first thoughts on the matter at any rate....
>
>Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
>
>http://www.dodgestudio.com
>
>
>
>
>On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) "Peggy W. Johnsen"
><edupjohn@slonet.org> writes:
>>
>>Like your comments regarding glass instructors.  Hypothetical 
>>Question:
>>If there were "industry" standards for teaching stained glass, what
>>standards would you establish for the teachers?  I posted this as
>>hypothetical but I am totally interested in teacher preparation for
>>stained glass instructors.  Peggy
>>
>>
>
>Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
>
>http://www.dodgestudio.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________
>You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
>Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
>or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 07:34:58 1999
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From: Mike Peck <summitstudio@worldnet.att.net>
To: dodgestudio@juno.com
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Subject: Re: Work and learning styles
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 08:49:34 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.24934.0>
References: <<1999Feb18.163134.0>>
Organization: Summit Stained Glass  (http://www.summitstudio.com)
Precedence: bulk

I have to agree with Gary, tapping a break in glass just creates
problems.  Just to add my 2 cents, tapping can also result in tiny
fractures (from the radial shocks that Gary mentioned) that are directed
toward the inner part of the piece you trying to fit. Those tiny
fractures may not run during your soldering, but may run later if the
panel is exposed to an extreme or rapid temperature change, or even if
it's just hanging in a window when a thunderstorm passes through your
area.

Mike Peck 

dodgestudio@juno.com wrote:
> 
> Brian,
> 
> When you tap on glass you are creating a radial shock wave much like
> ripples in a pond.  Rather than directly addressing the score line and
> causing it to open in a controlled way, the artist who taps is hoping
> that a random shock will do the right thing by him.  Sometimes it does,
> sometimes not.  Any flaw or stone in the glass becomes a problem that
> might result in an unwanted break in the glass, but worst of all, tapping
> on the glass results in lots of little dings sticking out on the
> underside of the score that must be grozed or ground off.  Who needs
> that?!
> 
> As for new stuff, I love gadgets but only if they can do something better
> or faster than I can do it without them!
> 
> Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
> 
> http://www.dodgestudio.com
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 1999 20:22:13 -0000 "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
> writes:
> >Gary
> >
> >Read this with interest! I have never tapped glass to run a break but
> >I have
> >seen many people do it! What specifically is your objection? It does
> >see to
> >be a common practice - I've even seen SG workers do it!
> >
> >I'm  familiar with the Thomas pattern cutter although I haven't tried
> >one. I
> >missed somehow the original mail and wondered if they were talking
> >about the
> >Silberschnitt!
> >
> >
> >I'm always keen to look at different methods of doing things (older
> >or
> >newer!) and all the paraphenalia and specialised tools that accompany
> >a
> >craft fascinate me. I'm something of a catalogue-aholic anyway!
> >
> >Best regards
> >
> >BtB
> >
> >
> >
> >>By the time my class is done we've got people both pulling and
> >pushing
> >>their glass cutters.  Breaking by hand and with runners  (but never
> >>tapping....ok, maybe a little inflexible ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
> 
> http://www.dodgestudio.com
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
> or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 07:49:45 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
Subject: Re: latest Glass Craftsman articles
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:50:19 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.145019.0>
References: <<3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>>
Precedence: bulk

I'm sure I will be told that something is wrong with me, but I can't see
the necessity of putting steel inside two cames on the perimeter of a
panel.
        I'm getting really boring on this subject probably, but...
1.      there is no additional strength added across the panel by
perimeter reinforcing
2.      There are quicker ways of "reinforcing" so a panel can be hung.
One of them is to put twisted brass wire (picture hanging wire for
example) around the outside of the perimeter came next to the heart.
Then fold the outer leaves of the came together, so trapping the brass
wire.  Solder the ends of the wire together, and if you have allowed the
wire to come out at the top of the panel, you have a wire to hang at one
or two points.  This supports the panel as it goes *completely around*
the panel without breaks.
        This would be for a big panel.  A smaller panel of 1-2 square
feet (not feet square), can be supported by two copper ties about 2
inches long soldered to the side of the heart of the perimeter lead.
3.      If the panel needs reinforcing, it needs it across the panel.
The reinforcing should follow major "fold" lines across the panel,
whether in lead came or in copper foil. If your panel is "floppy" it
will remain so whether you put zinc, or steel encased in lead came on
the perimeter.  Perimeter reinforcing does not strengthen the panel
internally, it just makes you feel better, because the edges are rigid.
Well, that isn't going to help much if the panel is not properly
supported across its width or height.

Now, I have to admit that I haven't seen the article, so I am not
criticising the author or what was written, Just criticising the
concept.  Because I think it is *Wrong*  This may be a one person
crusade, but I haven't been discouraged from continuing it so far.

Steve in Scotland
So, I'm far enough away!


In message <3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>,
Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com> writes
>Nice pictures of some of Oddy's work, along with a good article on framing
>using lead came + steel rod.
>
>regards,
>charlie
>phx, az
>--
>Charles Spitzer
>Stratus Computer, Inc
>Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 08:07:22 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re:  Allentown Explosion?
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:24:27 EST
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In a message dated 2/20/99 1:43:05 AM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Just heard on my moms list that there was a big explosion in
>Allentown, Pa?
>
>What do any of you know about it?  Everyone Ok?

According to the Philadelphia Inquirer:

============================

A huge explosion rocked an industrial park outside Allentown last night,
trapping at least six people in the wreckage and blanketing the area under a
noxious chemical cloud. Emergency personnel worked into the early hours of the
morning to reach the people feared trapped inside the flattened building on
Roble Road in the Lehigh Valley Industrial Park, Hanover Township. The site is
less than a mile from Lehigh Valley International Airport. [...]

No fatalities were reported. [...] Officials said at least 10 people were
injured. [...]

[T]he chemical released into the air by the explosion -- hydroxylamine, a
reducing agent resembling ammonia -- was not toxic and could be washed off
with soap and water.

However, the fumes from the 8:15 p.m. blast prompted emergency officials to
establish a one-mile-radius containment area and urge area residents to stay
indoors with their windows closed. [...]

============================

I think this is pretty close to Warner-Crivellaro. If so, I hope they didn't
get shook up (I also heard reports that people as much as 15 miles away heard
and/or felt the explosion) and their inventory turned into instant mosaic!
Charles, are you out there? How's things this morning?


		--------------Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 08:32:37 1999
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Subject: NG Re: music to work by
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:26:42 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.152642.0>
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Also sprach Suzanne de T:

>I am thinking maybe Tommy James and the Shondells?  

Yup, that was them! I always hated it when the radio stations cut out the
instrumental section in the middle........ For that matter, IMO the
instrumental section that got cut out was "good stuff" in a lot of the rock of
that era. Quite a few "classic rockers" were classically trained to some
extent, and those middle sections were where they got to have fun mixing the
two.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 08:53:51 1999
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In a message dated 2/20/99 1:01:47 AM, pkelly@n-link.com wrote:

>Dancing to the music. [...] .... come on over and join me
>..... I've got more brooms......

Give me directions to your place, I'll be right over! And I'll bring my own
broom, it's my preferred mode of transportation......... not counting the
motor scooter, of course  :-)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 08:59:53 1999
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Subject: Allentown Explosion?
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:51:31 -0500
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Message text written by Suzanne
>Just heard on my moms list that there was a big explosion in
Allentown,Pa?

What do any of you know about it?  Everyone Ok?<

It was in a plant that manufactures fuses.  Couple
of people taken to the hospital.  No evacuation
required, but the folk living with the one-mile
radius from the plant had to do without power and
close their windows (which would have been closed
anyway since it's still cold here) just in case there
was any release of fumes into the air.  The plant
looked like it was bombed though.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 09:08:29 1999
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Subject: Re: glass/music
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:26:56 EST
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>>  The dag-gum grinder noise makes my blood run cold.

It can get anoying, but it ain't nothin' compared to the ring saw -- so named
at least in part because that's what it makes your ears do?

>> I usually have music going.  Depending on my mood, but usually always
>> uplifting.  Last time it was the Squirrel Nut Zippers.  Any other music
>> selections to score by?
>> 
>> Maureen

Exactly what depends on my mood and what I'm working on.

Baroque almost always "works" for me.

For that matter, just about anything classical works for me except Romantic
concertos -- especially the violin ones that sound to me like someone's sawing
a cat in half and the piano ones that sound like the soloist is off in his own
little world of cadenzas and other "solitary vices" -- and operatic-sounding
stuff (as far as I'm concerned, big voices of any kind could be bottled up and
sold as paint remover; they're the "muscle beach freaks" of music).

Laid-back but *real* instrumental jazz (not that urban soft-pop stuff that
calls itself "smooth jazz"), acoustic New Age (don't care all that much for
the electronic stuff) and "world music" (love that drumming!). And anything
that combines classical with any oher kind of music.

Just about anything instrumental as long as it doesn't have an "edge" to it
(forget screamin' saxophones).

Occasionally "classic rock." Some of the mellower "indie" stuff works for me
too. But I can't listen to rock/pop for long, because the voices (with a few
notable exceptions) are too "edgy" and when things aren't in tune, they just
"jump out and bite." Drives me up the wall. For that matter, vocal music of
any kind can be a problem because the for some unknown reason the combination
of words and music is too distracting. (Occupational hazards of being a
singist myself, I guess.) Oddly enough, even though I can't listen to vocal
music for very long, intelligent talk (the NPR stuff) is just fine in small
doses!

Vocal/choral early music, especially a cappella, but it has to be light lyric
"early-music" voices and they have to be absolutely in tune. (English choirs
are the best, but I know a pro chorus right here in Philly that ain't bad
either <vbg> no brag, just fact)

And 20th century "serious music," especially cutting-edge (no pun intended)
new music. One of the great things about working at Christie's is that we both
like the "weird stuff," and we both bring in some of our more off-the-wall
CDs.

When I'm working by myself, I tend to put in a CD and set it on continuous
loop (or "stun" as Christie calls it).

Hey Stan, are you working all night, or what? Around here "Echoes" runs from
11 pm to 1 am. I keep meaning to get some 8-hour video tapes, set up the VCR
for "simulcast," and tape a few of those shows to listen to when I'm awake.


Sparks (currently listening to Frederic Hand and "Jazzantiqua")
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: show ?'s
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:51:28 -0500
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Message text written by Suzanne
>Do shows allow this?
Is there a secret to doing this?  Do we have to pretend to be a company?
Can 2 people do a show together like that?  Both of us have could use
the others inventory to pad theirs,  so we look like we have more.<

Some shows allow booth sharing.  Some do not.
Check with the show organizer if it is not explicitly
stated in the jurying rules.  You do not have to
pretend to be a company.  Play by the rules.  It's
OK.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 09:22:21 1999
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Subject: Re: Grinder-free experiment results
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:51:19 -0500
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Message text written by "Peggy W. Johnsen"
>Did you by any chance determine amount of time
saved?  Peggy<

Saved about 15 minutes per candle chimney, what
with the grinding (very little time), but (more importantly)
washing & drying time saved.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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>Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?
>
>T Suz

I got mine at Home Depot. Look for the kind that's for paint fumes/organic
vapors. And don't forget to replace the cartridges every so often; eventually
they get sufficiently crudded up that they won't absorb any more.


Sparks
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 10:51:40 -0500
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Message text written by "M. Savad"
>currently mine is full of solder. i guess some of the solder is carried
off with the fumes. there's enough in there, that i had to scrape it
because the fan was clicking against it.<

My Inland Fume Trap is also of questionable merit,
IMHO.  You do have to keep it smack up against
whatever it is you're soldering.  However, it does
do some good, as I took the filter off yesterday to
wash it, and it was full of black gunk.  Better there
than in my lungs.  But I've returned to wearing my
respirator while soldering, plus the fume trap.  I
figure the respirator does the main job of keeping
fumes out of my lungs, but the fume trap sucks up
additional stuff which would otherwise end up on
the table.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 09:41:59 1999
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Subject: Respirators
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Message text written by Suzanne
>Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?<

Sears, hardware/tools section.  Get the one rated for
paint fumes - not the ones just rated for dust & pollen.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 10:55:43 1999
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>
From: Terri O'Leary <Terri@digrap.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Allentown Explosion?
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 13:12:36 -0500
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Yes, there was an explosion in Hanover Township which borders Bethlehem and
Allentown in PA. The company makes or uses some kind of chemicals.
Information is still a little sketchy. It was announced on the radio this
morning that 5 were killed, and they think they recovered everyone. The
Company name is Concept Science, Inc. . For those of you who have been to WC
it is only a short distance from them, bordering the airport and Rt. 22.. I
live in Bethlehem and felt some of the vibration from the blast. It is very
sad. That is all I know at this time.  

Terri


-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne [mailto:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 1999 12:45 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Allentown Explosion?


Just heard on my moms list that there was a big explosion in
Allentown,Pa?

What do any of you know about it?  Everyone Ok?

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 11:55:44 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Ahem,

That would make Toby an Irishman.....
Since he hails (originally) from Cornwall, I don't think he would 
approve!!
Let GO of that crazy tu-tu Toby!!    N. O. W. !!!!
E 'n T in UK

Also sprach Dani Greer:

>You might as well say Toby is a cat.

Well, if it's true that "you are what you eat".....

Sparks replied:
No, wait, that would make Toby - never mind, I'm not going there..........



----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 12:12:26 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:42:56 +0000
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 Gary, et al,



 What you say makes a lot of sense and I agree 
This is exactly the sort of training I myself have been undergoing 
for my own teaching certificate;
i.e.
1. execute a project of my own under observation
2. all aspects of teaching (including identifying fears, etc) under 
observation
3. Theories and practice  of education for Further & Higher Learning 
programmes
4. Communication, explanatory skills (all again under observation)   
5. .....and many other aspects besides....

Although I have been teaching for some years now ( including 
management trainees in industry,  foreign languages in UK secondary 
schools, as well as stained glass), I have never before been 
qualified as a "Teacher" per se .... until recently.
Peggy does come from a very strong educational back-ground.
 In deed, the manual she has just had published is primarily aimed at 
teachers of stained glass, rather than at the students.....
To specify a testing procedure,  is also a means of setting a 
standard, is it not??
The "cowboy" who first taught me stained glass would be the 
FIRST candidate I would fail ....... He has always been a model for 
me how NOT to teach. Ah well.....
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Gary wrote:
it would have to be more a testing procedure than a fixed set of 
requirements.  First and most basic the instructor must demonstrate 
the ability to execute a simple project in a professional manner 
while being observed.  This would include cutting accurately and 
exhibiting proficiency with an iron.  I think you'd need separate 
certifications for foil and came technique.  (And for slumping, 
fusing etc?)

Next there would have to be some kind of written test to see if there is
an understanding of theory as well.  It is very possible to successfully
manipulate the materials yet not know why it works.  That would be just
great except that you need to be able to explain why it works.  Some
people are happy to just learn it by rote, others learn better when they
understand the objectives.

Finally, and this is really asking a lot, but the best instructor needs
to be analytical, intuitive, patient, reassuring and a good communicator.
 You need to be able to tell the difference between a student whose glass
doesn't break because the score line is bad and the student with
apparently the same problem who is actually just paralyzed with fear. 
How you test for all of those is a tough question.  



On Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:56:06 -0800 (PST) "Peggy W. Johnsen"
<edupjohn@slonet.org> writes:
>
>Like your comments regarding glass instructors.  Hypothetical 
>Question:
>If there were "industry" standards for teaching stained glass, what
>standards would you establish for the teachers?  I posted this as
>hypothetical but I am totally interested in teacher preparation for
>stained glass instructors. 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 12:27:29 1999
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Hey Dawn,

You (and others, who won't be offended by my rather "cranky" 
old-fashioned approach and style) I look forward meeting during  "The 
E-Tour" of USA that  is happening in August and September THIS year.
Warner Crivellaro are paying to fly me from UK and back (and host 
some events), Carol Swann is  the chief organizer, Pamela 
Burns-Tappan has created a special WEB-site to show when and where of 
the events ( http://come.to/The E-Tour).
I am absolutely NO guru, and I myself have an awful lot still to 
learn. But I do enjoy seeing the spark of enthusiasm fired up about 
something I feel deeply about (stained glass!)

Let me tell you a secret (But don't tell Dani, because she might fire 
me from my temporary job....  ;->   )  ...... I too have a grinder 
and now and then I even use it (!!)
However, the concept of a grinder is never introduced in my teaching 
(for at least  6-12 months). Occasionally my students appear with a 
little "Wizling" under their arms to Class,  which they then proudly 
show off and experiment with. I say nothing, just make sure they take 
the necessary safety precautions and know how to use it properly,.
After about the 4th or 5th appearance of said Wizling, the novelty 
wears off and the students REALLY concentrate on perfecting their 
accuracy in cutting glass.
I occasionally bring in repairs and restoration works to show them, 
taking the lead apart and show them how craftsmen 80 - 100-150 years 
ago got their glass to fit in the precise space allocated.
Hhhhmmmm.... I am still learning.....
See you in August?? September??
Elisabeth 'n Toby (who sadly - will stay at home...) in UK

 I have always realized that there are many 
dedicated teachers on the list and the latest thread on cutting 
accurately really proves that point.  Boy do I wish I had taken 
classes with Elisabeth, Dani, Gary or any of the other teachers here 
who would have kept the grinder hidden away (at least for awhile)!!!

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 12:45:40 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: show ?'s
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:12:20 -0800
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I run an art gallery (Holtenwood Gallery, Texada Island, British Columbia)
in addition to my glass / woodworking studio.  Or actually, to be honest, I
should say Adriana runs the gallery.  The glass and wood working takes most
of my time.

Anyway, I will attempt to answer your questions.

In this business almost anything goes.  Different galleries have totally
different policies, so the best thing is to just get out there and ask.
Call ahead and make sure the gallery manager will be there to talk to you
and then go in person.


Or are we talking about craft shows here?  Again, the policy of each craft
show is different.  Some are juried and for those you will each need to have
your work juried separately.  If you are both accepted then many shows will
allow you to share a booth.  Or this is one case where a company name can be
used.  Sometimes multiple people can be juried together as employees of one
crafts company.  Some shows will need you to prove a certain production
volume so they can be sure you won't run out half way through the show.
Others will allow someone with just one poorly made suncatcher so long as
they pay the booth fee.

A lot depends on how you want to sell yourself.  What image are you going
for?  Do you want to be viewed as an "Artist"?  A company doing
architectural glass work?  A crafts company?  A restoration company?

If you are doing the show as "artists" and you are tying to get art
galleries to show your work, I would definitely use your own name.  In fact,
I would say a company name would be a detriment in this case.  Personally,
the only time I use my company name (Holtenwood Architectural Detailing), is
when I am dealing with large commissions with other professionals
(architects, builders, etc.), or I am buying materials from a wholesale only
company.

If you are going for a gallery show, go around and look at all the available
galleries.  Try to find one which has the "feel" you like, but is not
already showing exactly the types of stuff you have to offer.  Then make an
appointment to talk to the gallery manager.

Present yourself well.  Make sure your portfolio looks good.  No bad
pictures, no messy mounting.  Bringing in actual work is great, but make
sure it is small enough for you to carry around and for the gallery manager
to see and look at.  Knocking over and smashing other artist's work as you
swing a huge window through the door definitely does not win points.

Multi-person shows are fairly common.  But I would suggest you sell
yourselves to the gallery manager one at a time.  For some reason, two
people trying to sell themselves at once usually end up destroying the sale.
If you must go together, make sure you have decided who is going to do the
talking.  The other person should be attentive, but keep their mouth shut
until they are asked to show their own work.  Then the roles could switch.

If you get shot down, do not take it personally.  Some galleries are just
plain snobbish.  Others have a special niche you may not fit into.

My own gallery is purely "local".  We will show almost anyone from the
Texada / Powell River area whose work meets our quality standards.  But the
farther away the artist is, the more exceptional their work would have to
be.  We do no show any artist who lives further away than Vancouver or
Victoria.  So if you live outside this area, we would refuse you.  It would
not be a reflection on your work, just a matter of policy.

You may also want to look at non-gallery show space.  Our local mall has
display windows you can rent by the month.  The waiting list is several
months, but it can be well worth the wait.  This method seems to work well
for selling smaller commissions, repair work, and other services.

In all cases, once you get a show space make sure your work is displayed
well.  Stay involved.  Different gallery managers want different levels of
involvement from the artists.  But how your work is displayed is definitely
your business.  I am constantly surprised how many gallery owners do not
know how to display certain types of work to advantage.  Lighting
appropriate to a painting can suck all the life from a stained glass piece.

If you are doing the display yourself make absolutely sure you do it right.
The display windows in the local mall have cheap incandescent lighting.
When I have used them to advertise a special event at the gallery, I went
out and bought halogen light bulbs and extra lighting fixtures.  I repainted
the walls and cleaned the glass in the window myself.  I constructed quality
backdrops from quality fabric.  Do it right - cheap lighting, dirty paint,
or a cheap backdrop will make your work look like crap no matter how good it
is.

As a final note, once you have an agreement, get it in writing.  If your
work is being shown on commission make sure you have a contract specifying
the commission percentages and breakage and theft policies.  Get a signed
list of every piece you give to the gallery.  Keep a list of every piece you
show in any display space.  If possible, take a picture of the finished
display so pieces can be identified exactly.  I would like to think all
gallery owners (and artists) are as honest as myself and Adriana, but I know
it is not true.  And even if you are dealing with honest people, theft and
breakage are a fact of this world.  Having it in writing prevents any
misunderstandings.

And most of all, just keep at it.  Getting shows and displaying your work is
just like doing the work itself.  It takes effort, perseverance, and
practice, practice, practice.   The more times you deal with these
situations, the better you will be at them.

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 10:53 PM
Subject: show ?'s


>Hi y'all! ;o)
>
>Me again..quit groaning..
>
>A fellow Bungian and I are discussing the idea of doing a show together.
>We have about the same amount of show experience..(slim).  We have
>exchanged pics and like each others work.
>
>It would not be competitive between us, but more of a help to each of
>us...in terms of sharing display, expenses...everything.  2 can do it
>cheaper than 1...and we could have fun doing it.  Between the 2
>personalities, I think we would boost each others sales.
>
>Do shows allow this?
>Is there a secret to doing this?  Do we have to pretend to be a company?
>Can 2 people do a show together like that?  Both of us have could use
>the others inventory to pad theirs,  so we look like we have more.
>
>Any advice at all, we would appreciate.  What do we need to think about
>that we may not be?
>
>Thanks.
>
>Tulsa Suzanne
>--
>"Winning isn't always finishing first.
>Sometimes winning is just finishing."
>Manuel Diotte
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:01:32 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Beginner classes
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:01:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.3133.0>
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Yes, I was going to mention it also.

daver! is sending messages that are not in plain text.  They are probably in
HTML or MIME format.  They will not pass through most gateways or firewalls
and may
even be being zapped by the list server itself.

daver!: change your default format for the glass list address to "plain
text".  In MS Outlook Express this is done by setting up the glass list
address in your address book and checking the box "Send E-mail using plain
text only".  Similar in Windows Messaging (Exchange).  I don't remember what
it is in Eudora, but I do know it is there.

Actually for everyone else, this is why my own "came vs. foil" message
turned up missing or strange in most people's mail.  I was on a new laptop
and I had not set it up right.  Unfortunately I also deleted the text of the
message I sent because I was just borrowing the laptop to try it out.  I
don't have time to re-type it right now, so I guess that particular thread
has gone to the great bit bucket in the sky for the moment...

-----Original Message-----
From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
To: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net
<daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: Beginner classes


>All of the E-Mails that I receive  from you are blank.
>Does anyone else have this problem?
>Goldpaws
>
>daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:05:03 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:52:07 -0800
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So long as you have not opened it or run it in any way, you are safe.

Just to be sure you do not open it accidentally in the future, you should be
sure it is fully deleted.  If you do not have your email program set to
clean up the deleted items folder on exit (or whatever depending on the
email client), you should explicitly tell it to clean it up now.  Some email
clients send deleted messages to the recycle bin.  If you have one of these
programs, you will want to clean it out there.

-----Original Message-----
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Pawel Karaszkiewicz <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 8:07 AM
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message


>I got it to but did not open and deleted it I have only been in this group
for a few weeks so I don't know much about it as long as its
>deleted from my mail is that enough?????
>How can sombody send it without knowing??????
>Laura
>
>Pawel Karaszkiewicz wrote:
>
>> I've just received Happy 99 virus. Have't opened it and deleted. Is it
enough? I remember a discussion about it, but I lost my archive
>>
>> Pawel
>>
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:20:27 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
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Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:14:18 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.31418.0>
Precedence: bulk

Why the !#**$#@ are we getting this crap on a glass list????  

-----Original Message-----
From: tur818r@yahoo.com <tur818r@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 1:19 AM
Subject: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report


>
>
>***** Y 2 K   P R E S S     R E L E A S E *****
>
>
>FREE FREE ** 1,800 PAGE Y2K REPORT ** FREE FREE
>
>
> Over 1,800 Pages of the most important Y2K
> information available today and it's 
> TOTALLY 100% FREE.
>
>
>Double Click On This Link: http://209.60.152.131
>
>
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:23:13 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 09:46:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.14634.0>
Precedence: bulk

I absolutely will never, positively never, execute an .exe file attachment
unless the sender has described exactly what it is and guaranteed it does
not contain a virus.  I would hope everyone else has the same policy.  An
.exe file could be a program to destroy your entire computer.  Unless you
all like playing Russian Roulette with your computer, you sure as heck
should not execute the file that was attached to the message below.

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert G. and Rebecca T. Wickline <wickline@i2020.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 9:06 PM
Subject: What to do while scoring.



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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:35:58 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:27:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.32753.0>
Precedence: bulk

I might suggest the cleaning with steel wool could be your problem.  The
slightest thread of steel wool left on the lead would prevent the patina
from working in that area.  Steel (iron) is very reactive and will change
almost any chemical reaction.

I use a brass brush to clean the lead and/or solder before a patina.  Much
less harmful to the reaction if any is left behind.

If I need to use steel wool, I always use a high quality long strand steel
wool.  The threads are much longer and do not tend to break off as much.
This is available from Lee Valley Tools catalogue for not much more than
than bad stuff from your local hardware store.  There are also stainless
steel wools available which will not react, but these tend to be very
pricey.

Actually, you might want to experiment.  Some patinas have some very
interesting effects when applied with steel wool or a steel brush.  Duller
"bronze" patinas often result.  Extreme caution whenever experimenting with
chemicals though.  Wear safety glasses, gloves, etc.  One patina solution I
tried this with was so reactive with the steel that it heated up and began
to melt right through my rubber gloves.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jerri <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: copper sulfate


>
>Thanks Dani and Charles,
>
>    Someone, a while back, told the copper patina gets old.  My results
were
>very blotchy, and this was after cleaning really well and going over the
>solder with steel wool.  A friend brought over her new bottle of patina,
and
>I had much better results, so I thought it must be that the patina was old,
>although I have some old black patina that still works fine.  I've always
>used cotton or q-tips and throw away each one after use, so I don't
>contaminate.  My friend applies it with a toothbrush.  She always has very
>nice results.
>
>Any other suggestions anyone?  I know this has been discussed before, but I
>don't remember.
>
>Jerri
>
>
>
>
>Hi Jerri-
>
>Mike says you just mix it with water, it works great, and he
>doesn't know why yours would have gone bad.
>
>Best,
>
>Dani
>
>----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:44:41 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Grinder-free experiment results
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 12:08:18 -0800
Message-ID: <199902202008.MAA09181@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>Saved about 15 minutes per candle chimney, what
>with the grinding (very little time), but (more importantly)
>washing & drying time saved.

What about the residual oil from the cutter?

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 13:56:51 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:46:26 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.34626.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hey! tur818r@yahoo.com is not even a valid email return address.  What sort
of s...head sends this sort of spam through a glass list without even a
proper return address!

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: tur818r@yahoo.com <tur818r@yahoo.com>; glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report


>Why the !#**$#@ are we getting this crap on a glass list????
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: tur818r@yahoo.com <tur818r@yahoo.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 1:19 AM
>Subject: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report
>
>
>>
>>
>>***** Y 2 K   P R E S S     R E L E A S E *****
>>
>>
>>FREE FREE ** 1,800 PAGE Y2K REPORT ** FREE FREE
>>
>>
>> Over 1,800 Pages of the most important Y2K
>> information available today and it's
>> TOTALLY 100% FREE.
>>
>>
>>Double Click On This Link: http://209.60.152.131
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 14:02:35 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Respirators
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:42:05 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.3425.0>
Precedence: bulk

If you have a wholesale / resale / PST or whatever you state, province, or
country requires for buying wholesale, you may find the best selection and
price from your local safety equipment supplier.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:46 AM
Subject: Respirators


>Message text written by Suzanne
>>Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?<
>


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 14:15:00 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 11:39:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.3392.0>
Precedence: bulk

I much prefer my positive flow filter mask.  It uses a rechargeable battery
pack to push cool air through a filter at my  waist then through a hose and
the across the front of my face.  It is much cooler than a respirator and
does not fog my glasses.  It is also the only thing that works for people
with beards.  A beard prevents a normal respirator from fitting right.

Mine is from Racal.  Check your yellow pages "safety equipment".  Positive
flow filter masks are required for many industrial uses, so any safety
equipment supplier should carry them.  They cost a bit, but can be well
worth it for the comfort and piece of mind.  I got mine for about $100
(Canadian).

-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: fume traps


>
>>Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?
>>
>>T Suz
>
>I got mine at Home Depot. Look for the kind that's for paint fumes/organic
>vapors. And don't forget to replace the cartridges every so often;
eventually
>they get sufficiently crudded up that they won't absorb any more.
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 14:36:08 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: show ?'s
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:01:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.11117.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Suzanne-

I belong to a co-op that puts on an arts & crafts fair every Labor
Day weekend and we do allow more than one person in a booth
as long as their work is complimentary/related.  I think the max.
is four people per booth.  Also, each member has to jury in
separately, so there's a bit of a risk factor.... if one gets in, one
not.  It's a very beneficial situation for folks who are good but
just starting out because you can share expenses and duties
while getting the experience you need.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 14:40:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:01:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.11144.0>
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I would really like to see a good write-up about air filtering for
the studio... something that compares everything from an
open window and small fume traps, furnace/airconditioner filters,
to HEPA systems one can buy at Sears and full-blown industrial
strength systems.  What's available out there between $50 and
$5,000 and how well do they work?  And how do you pronounce
H-E-P-A?  ;-)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 14:53:51 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:dodgestudio@juno.com" <dodgestudio@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Glass Instructors
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:01:24 -0500
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Gary-

Maybe you could be part of the IGGA advisory committee to help
write some teacher certification standards.  Certainly, it makes
sense that real teachers be part of the standardizing crew.  Any
other teachers out there that would be interested in some organized
brainstorming?  And to do some serious research as to how other
certification programs got started?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 15:12:31 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Hot Glass Repair help
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:54:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.115458.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi all.  I've had a couple of very nice, tall, blown glass
flowers come into the shop which need repair.  They
are labeled Princ Art Glass (Bohemia Glass) and are
the heavy, tall, top-heavy glass flowers on rather thin
stems.  Naturally, the stems are broken.  The clients
tried taking them to a hot shop for repair, but the hot
shop said no go since they didn't have a clue as to
the glass's formula.

I can slice the stems above the break so that both
halves get a fresh, smooth surface (thank goodness
for the Taurus II ring saw).

But now my question...what glue will give the best
results for this type of repair?  I need something that
will dry clear & give excellent rigidity & hopefully be
invisible.  UV glue?  If so, which brand?

Can anyone out there help?  I've already warned the
clients that I might be unable to repair them at all, so
they said give it your best shot.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 15:42:15 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: support group for grinder users
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 14:17:17 -0800
Message-ID: <199902202217.OAA31320@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk


>>You might as well say Toby is a cat.
>
>Well, if it's true that "you are what you eat".....
>
>Sparks replied:
>No, wait, that would make Toby - never mind, I'm not going there..........

My gosh Sparks, you're right...it sounds like Toby eats cats!!! Horrors!
Look out Mousey...

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 15:59:31 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Grinder-free experiment results
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 17:29:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.122939.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Carol Swann
>What about the residual oil from the cutter?<

Not a problem, since I stopped filling up the Toyo
pistol grip cutter.  I only occasionally dip the cutter
into a small pool of cutter oil, and always kindof
sling off any excess just prior to scoring.  There
really wasn't any excess oil on the pieces.  Hence,
no washing needed.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 16:14:08 1999
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X-Path: warner-criv.com!charles
From: "Charles Warner" <charles@warner-criv.com>
To: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Allentown Explosion?
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:16:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.13165.0>
Precedence: bulk


Yes, the explosion was about 2 miles from our store.  We were dining at a
beautiful restaurant about 10 miles away when the explosion happened. The
restaurant has a scenic view of our valley.  It shook the building so badly
that everyone got up and ran to an outside balcony to see who hit the
building with their truck or car.  Then we saw a huge cloud of smoke in the
night sky.  Everyone then went to the bar to listen to the television
reports.  When we heard "several businesses just off of Airport Road" it was
a bit unsettling, but as the newscast continued, we knew it wasn't in our
immediate neighborhood.  Nevertheless, we did swing by the store on our way
home to make sure that we still had factory size sheets of glass and no
outer windows were broken - for security reasons, of course.  EVERYTHING WAS
JUST FINE, but very sadly,  5 people were killed and 13 others injured, some
of them critically.  Property can be replaced. Lives cannot.  Thanks for
asking.
                  Marianne Warner
                  Warner-Crivellaro
>============================
>
>I think this is pretty close to Warner-Crivellaro. If so, I hope they
didn't
>get shook up (I also heard reports that people as much as 15 miles away
heard
>and/or felt the explosion) and their inventory turned into instant mosaic!
>Charles, are you out there? How's things this morning?


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 16:47:11 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: we're practically neighbors!
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 15:42:39 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.74239.0>
Precedence: bulk

Making an income in a remote location can take a lot of effort.  I end up
doing all sorts of things.  I must admit I pick up income from places other
than art.  I was originally trained as a computer programmer and I still do
some of that on a contract basis.  I've even spent time collecting fir cone
seed for the christmas tree growers.

The gallery does OK except for January/February.  The island residents are
quite supportive.  Actually Christmas is almost as busy as the tourist
season.

I have done commissioned windows locally (Texada, Powell River), but I do
end up travelling a lot.  I've done work in Whistler (lots of money and new
fancy ski homes), the Sechelt peninsula (lots of money and new fancy
waterfront homes).

It helps I also do wood working.  I often sell my work for new buildings at
least partially in the fact I can also do custom detailing on the window
frames, moldings, etc.

But all in all, I will do almost any honest work that will help pay the
bills.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
To: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 3:28 PM
Subject: we're practically neighbors!


>Hi Tim
>
>I was just about to write and ask where you were located...I knew it was bc
>'cuz your ISP has bc in their name.
>
>>I run an art gallery (Holtenwood Gallery, Texada Island, British Columbia)
>>in addition to my glass / woodworking studio.  Or actually, to be honest,
I
>>should say Adriana runs the gallery.  The glass and wood working takes
most
>>of my time.
>
>I'm guessing that your business is pretty seasonal with the tourist trade
or
>do you show/sell through galleries in Vancouver.  Are you successful with
>getting custom orders when you're that far out?
>
>I live at Miracle Beach (Black Creek) halfway between CR and Courtenay.  I
>guess you could say on a clear day I can almost see your Island.  I've
>contemplated moving to a smaller place but can't see how i would be able to
>service custom clientele.  I already find my Vancouver and SEattle clients
>to be a stretch.  Victoria's pretty accessible though.  I do regular road
>trips, it's just that they're already pretty long.
>
>I'd like to hear how you manage to derive a FT income in such a remote
place
>(food for my thoughts).
>
>C.
>
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>
>check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
>http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 17:18:03 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: jroey@juno.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:05:31 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.0531.0>
Precedence: bulk

Jerri,
I have had a bottle of copper patina for over 10 years now and it is still
fine.  Have you been contaminating your patina?  If you use the patina
directly from the bottle, you will surely contaminate the entire contents in
no time at all.  I always pour a small amount into a tiny (plastic) container
and use it from there.  Any patina that is left over is disposed of and NOT
poured back into the original patina container.  Hope this helps.
Lenore
PS  I really like the idea of mixing your own patina from crystals!!  Let me
know how you like it.
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 17:33:38 1999
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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Respirators
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 18:20:48 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.122048.0>
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Also check with Home Depot and Lowe's in the tool department. Both of them
carry respirators,,,,,more than one kind.......... Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 11:47 AM
Subject: Respirators


>Message text written by Suzanne
>>Anyone know where to start looking for a respirator?<
>
>Sears, hardware/tools section.  Get the one rated for
>paint fumes - not the ones just rated for dust & pollen.
>
>Christie A. Wood
>Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
>P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
>http://www.igga.org/wood/
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 17:46:59 1999
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From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: wickline@i2020.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: What to do while scoring.
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:17:33 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.01733.0>
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Hi Beckie!
I'm with you as I too listen to story tapes while glassing.  I borrow them
from the library and think it is great!!  However, sometimes they can be
distracting (like the music can't?!).  Now I am into informative tapes on:
living, vocabulary enrichment, how to ______ (whatever), etc.  I have a
problem with dancing with my upper and lower torso when I listen to music. 
Lenore
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 18:08:36 1999
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From: Luanne6556@aol.com
To: KLeeman@aol.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: music to work by
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:31:38 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.03138.0>
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Debbie,
     YEAH!!!!!!!!  Love Mountain, thought I was the only fan left.  
LUANNE
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 19:25:07 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Your Free 1,800 Page Y2K Report
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 20:50:19 -0500
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It happens once very couple of months, Tim.  Nothing to get
excited about.  All the old-timers on the list simply hit the
"delete" button.  Most importantly, don't reply to the offending
post because the only folks who'll get your reply are about =

700 other bungi members!  The offender doesn't know you're
upset.  We had a fun thread  a while back on whether we could
get the "Hot Russian Babes" to do some foiling and cementing
for us!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/  =

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 20:39:28 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Inventor of Copper Foil
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 19:06:21 -0800 (PST)
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Several days ago someone posted some facts about the history of stained
glass.  One of the passages told who invented copper foil or who got a
pattent for it in 1866. I deleted the message and ever since I have been
unable to remember the man's name.  Something like John Ballen??? 

Help!
Thanks,
Peggy

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 21:27:37 1999
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From: KTSPLASH <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:51:20 +1000
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.235120.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hello Bungians, I've been lurking about watching  
and learning from this most excellent group of people.
I am a stained glass hobbyist, just starting to sell items to people
 in my area, mostly people I know, but some who have been sent
 to me by people I know.
I was wondering have any of you professional people got any advice 
for me on taking payments for my work.  Obviously at this point I am
 not charging anywhere near professional prices, although I hope 
some time in the future to be a professional, I am more grateful for
 the opportunity to hone my skills.  I do charge people at least the 
cost of materials, and it seems fair to also charge a bit for my time.
I have a particular fellow who agreed on a price for 6 sidelights for his 
home.  They measured approx 3'10" by 1' for each sidelight, and were 
quite intricate, since I designed them myself - and didn't quite realize 
how much work I was creating for myself! We agreed on $900
 Australian (about $1500 US (I think)). Unfortunately, I wasn't 
here when he picked them up and when he paid less than agreed,
 my boyfriend took him at his word that the remainder ( about 
$200 Australian) would be paid.
I think he got a great deal on this, a friend of mine who is a 
professional told me the workmanship was very good, and that
 for the intricacy of the design etc, if he'd had them done by a 
"Proper Professional" he would have been charged much much
 more, up to double what we agreed on.
I'm wondering if any one has any advice for me on whether I 
should just cut my losses, or if anyone else has had a similar 
experience and has a tried and true money-extracting technique!!
Also, any advice for the future on asking for payment?
 Should I ask for a percentage up front, or full amount up
 front, or a payment scheme such as a payment at beginning, 
half way and end?
Lost and getting desperate,
Katie Walters, Qld, Australia.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 20 22:59:19 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bio #90  Candy Thurman
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:35:19 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.173519.0>
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I was born in Detroit, MI and was almost given up for adoption.. sometimes I
wonder
what would have become of me.. but my mother relented and I became the
oldest of
her 6 children (yeah, I know, I was still first...;-) )

She was artistic, but totally undisciplined and when the kids kept coming,
she stopped
drawing and I helped with all the babies... I think back on it and I know I
had lots of fun,
but jeez, such a little mother I was..

To break the monotony (!), with leftover crayons and no paper in sight, I
came up with a
solution.. wall murals!! And when the crayons were nubs, there was always
the
radiators.. and that's how I learned that red and yellow make orange... (and
that's what
got me the only spankings I ever got...)  and one day, I went to a church
with the Catholic
lady across the way and I got a new idea... I could color the windows!!!!

And so it began...

After years of poor-dom, (don't feel sorry, but it was there for a long
time) ,,, I received
for Christmas a class in stained glass at a college 10 miles out of town...
(whatever was
in his mind... we didn't have a car!) so... after 1-1/2 hrs of (one-way) bus
travel and lots of
switchovers (oh by the way, I grew up in Toledo, Ohio,, the then 'glass
capital of the
world'), I arrived at the college campus... the teacher, on reflection, was
very bad... she
said to use any old pair of pliers (do I hear groans?) and sandpaper to
grind (more
groans? I hope by now I'm getting a little sympathy here), I got a little
glass cutter for $2
and started cutting away on the little pieces she gave us.. and oh yes, the
class was in
a chemistry lab,, nice high black counters to cut on (geez, let me guess,
I'm only 5' tall)
and thank goodness I'm stubborn!! I cut and broke and cried and threw it
against the
wall and then cleaned it up and had a talk with myself about continuing this
exercise in
masochism.... I decided that I was more supreme than a flat piece of glass
and
continued... I remember talking to the teacher and trying to get some
direction, but since I
hadn't/couldn't buy an entire kit (grinder, grozers, breakers, etc.) she
really didn't want
to spend much time on me..

After the class, I took a 'real' design class at the Toledo Museum of Art
and was urged
by the teacher to attend an art school in Calif.. (boy that really made my
day!) and then
when I moved there, I found out just how expensive those things are!

I divorced in Calif and remarried there, a better marriage, but it didn't
last long either..
One thing that did come out of it though, was that I started doing
suncatchers, on my own,
patterns of course, and learned and learned and learned.. no teacher, no one
to ask
questions of but myself.. I learned the difference between leftover score
breakage and
heat fracture; why not to leave a foiled piece unsoldered for long; how to
repair both
foiled and leaded pieces; how to identify glass companies; and got a license
and went
to the Mecca (in Georgia/South Carolina ) of Glass, Mt. Airy Glass!!!
Wholesale costs!!
Whoopee!! Lots and lots and lots of glass (I currently have more glass than
most of the
local glass companies, sitting in my studio (read 1-1/2 car garage))...
Found the
difference between piping solder (50/50) and Canfield; compared fluxes;
patinas; my
oh my oh my!! After a couple of years (about 1987) I was talked into
teaching and found
out how much fun (and what a headache!) that was.. I still teach, class
limit is 3.. both
fusing and flat leaded/foiled panels, and would love to teach a lamp
class... I teach
theory of color and design, am fussy about type of glass used for each
project (there
are times when only Youghigheny or Chicago or Bullseye will do) but do allow
my
students to try glass from all the companies.. I'm told I'm a very
understanding and
good teacher.. which compliments I take with embarrassment but also pride...

I haven't yet done a real restoration (though the repairs I've done would
fit the
'restoration description'  )...I have made over 400 items (I stopped
counting years ago)
and now, won't make a suncatcher unless my arm is broken.. I have windows in
Israel,
New York, Oregon, Ohio, California, Georgia, Texas, and Colorado.. and no, I
can't pay
the house payment with the money I make.. I buy glass and solder and lamp
forms
instead..oh yes.. and a kiln!!!! and all it's attendant glass molds..

I've lately been working on teaching myself pate de verre.. (there's a
really good
Japanese book out there..)

Hopefully, this has been fun for you to read.. I hate tedium!

Oh yes, and the food on my plate right now?  A Betta window (Siamese
fighting fish- no
browns or beiges please!), a drop through bowl, (both of my own designs),
and an 8
panel lamp for the living room.. Bored? Me? No! I have lots of projects
going...

any questions?

Candy
in Colorado
land of wind



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 00:29:03 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Re: Tinning edges of foiled pieces?
Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 23:04:12 -0800
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>>On this vein, I received a repair recently on a panel bought in
Mexico.
It was foiled with a thin lead for trim. When I took some of the
border
pieces out, noticed that the copper foil around these pieces did not
wrap
all the way around. The foil started and ended about 1/2" in on the
outside edge.

Is this standard practice? I've always foiled all the way around every
piece. Maybe in Mexico they are saving on the cost of foil?

Suzanne<<

My way is to not foil around the outside edge of a piece that is to
have a thin lead U border. The reason is that the foil tends to show
and trimming it back with a knife is a pain. I do, however, run the
foil all the way to the outer edge. Stopping a 1/2" short would make
soldering the foiled seam to the border hard.

In Mexico they are a lot like in the US. The quality of the work
ranges from excellent to poor. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 01:05:37 1999
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From: Patricia Lambert <lgworks@cybertron.com>
To: KTSPLASH <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:32:15 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.193215.0>
References: <<1999Feb21.235120.0>>
Organization: Lambert Glassworks
Precedence: bulk

KTSPLASH wrote:

> Also, any advice for the future on asking for payment?
>  Should I ask for a percentage up front, or full amount up
>  front, or a payment scheme such as a payment at beginning,
> half way and end?
> Lost and getting desperate,
> Katie Walters, Qld, Australia.

Hi, Katie!
  We started out with handwritten contracts till we could print our
own.  Our
standard is one-half the total cost (design time + materials + time +
profit)
at the time the contract is signed, then the rest when it is picked up
or installed. 
You could do half up front, then 1/4 part-way thru and 1/4 when picked
up. It should
always be paid for by time they take possession of it.
We also put in a statement of how far into the project they could make
changes
without it costing more (with Some people you really need this!) I guess
we've
been lucky or the contract signing makes it serious to people- no one
has ripped us
off yet (thank you, Lord)!
  Hope this helps!

Pat L.
Alabama, USA
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 01:32:39 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG  I said.. Dr..
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:58:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.195824.0>
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is there something I can...take.
DOCTOR...to releive this belly ache...
you put the lime in the coconut, ya stir it all up...
OoooOoOOOh...
;o)  Wanna dance, Arnold?

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 03:43:14 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG  I said.. Dr..
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 01:58:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.195824.0>
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is there something I can...take.
DOCTOR...to releive this belly ache...
you put the lime in the coconut, ya stir it all up...
OoooOoOOOh...
;o)  Wanna dance, Arnold?

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
----
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 03:52:23 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bio #90 Candy Thurman
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 02:22:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb20.202229.0>
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> Hopefully, this has been fun for you to read.. I hate tedium!

I enjoyed it thoroughly, Candy! ;o)  Thanks.

> any questions?
 
Well, yes, but I figure if you wanted to tell all you would have.


T Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 04:29:09 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Inventor of Copper Foil
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:15:01 +0000
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> Several days ago someone posted some facts about the history of stained
> glass.  One of the passages told who invented copper foil or who got a
> pattent for it in 1866. I deleted the message and ever since I have been
> unable to remember the man's name.  Something like John Ballen??? 

It was patented by Simon Bray, 1886. 

Albert
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 04:47:00 1999
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Subject: Re: Bio #90  Candy Thurman
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:11:15 EST
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This is for Candy:  you mentioned in your bio (which was very entertaining
btw) that you discovered why a foiled piece should not be left too long before
soldering.  Please tell me why as I am beginning to solder my first project
but due to flu etc. it has been sitting for about  3 weeks.  I have been
questioning whether I should go over all the pieces with steel wool (1000
grit) before soldering.  I'm a newbe (poor excuse). :-) Help. Thanks. Shirley
G
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 07:30:18 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
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Subject: Re: Bio #90  Candy Thurman
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:41:48 -0500
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SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:
> 
> This is for Candy:  you mentioned in your bio (which was very entertaining
> btw) that you discovered why a foiled piece should not be left too long before
> soldering.  Please tell me why as I am beginning to solder my first project
> but due to flu etc. it has been sitting for about  3 weeks.  I have been
> questioning whether I should go over all the pieces with steel wool (1000
> grit) before soldering.  I'm a newbe (poor excuse). :-) Help. Thanks. Shirley
> G
> ----
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because the exposed foil left in the air, oils, etc, can cause the foil
to oxidize. if that happens the solder won't stick to the foil. a few
weeks should'nt hurt it too much, though in spots you may find it
difficult to get the solder to stick on.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 08:15:57 1999
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Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:22:00 EST
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In a message dated 2/20/99 4:36:32 PM, atwoods@aisl.bc.ca wrote:

>I might suggest the cleaning with steel wool could be your problem.  The
>slightest thread of steel wool left on the lead would prevent the patina
>from working in that area.  Steel (iron) is very reactive and will change
>almost any chemical reaction.

If there's any flux residue at all on your stained glass piece and you go
after it with steel wool, the iron will react with the flux and you'll get
ferric chloride, which is black. (That's if you're using Flux-O-Matic or some
such zinc-chloride-based flux).

My vote goes for Scoth-Brite pads (you know, the famous "green scrubby
thingy"). Hardware stores also sell coarser ones for paint removal and surface
preparation (a lot of woodworkers prefer those to steel wool because steel
wool can give surfaces a grayish tinge from the traces of iron it leaves
behind).


			----------Sparks
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 08:26:53 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 09:33:27 -0500
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Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> I would really like to see a good write-up about air filtering for
> the studio... something that compares everything from an
> open window and small fume traps, furnace/airconditioner filters,
> to HEPA systems one can buy at Sears and full-blown industrial
> strength systems.  What's available out there between $50 and
> $5,000 and how well do they work?  And how do you pronounce
> H-E-P-A?  ;-)
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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HEPA i pronounce it Hepah like peppa stands for High Efficiency
Particulate Air - it could really be pronounced any way you like.

---Mike Savad
 
-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 09:02:43 1999
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From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
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Hey Girl....Whatcha been sniffin ????

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 6:50 AM
Subject: NG I said.. Dr..


>is there something I can...take.
>DOCTOR...to releive this belly ache...
>you put the lime in the coconut, ya stir it all up...
>OoooOoOOOh...
>;o)  Wanna dance, Arnold?
>
>T Suz
>-- 
>"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
>Sometimes winning is just finishing."
>Manuel Diotte
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 10:02:23 1999
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> Hey Girl....Whatcha been sniffin ????
> 
> Arnold
> 


Just healthy stuff, like lead and flux. 
 
Just heard a song I really like that always makes me get up and wiggle!
Still cant get it out of my head.  I'm about to drive my kids crazy!
Turn about is is fair play!

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 10:33:01 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:08:42 -0500
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Message text written by KTSPLASH (Katie)
>I'm wondering if any one has any advice for me on whether I =

should just cut my losses, or if anyone else has had a similar =

experience and has a tried and true money-extracting technique!!
Also, any advice for the future on asking for payment?
 Should I ask for a percentage up front, or full amount up
 front, or a payment scheme such as a payment at beginning, =

half way and end?<

Send them an invoice detailing the price you quoted, and
their payment history, and the remainder owed you.  Circle
the remainder owed you in red ink.  Make sure you also
print on the invoice something to the effect that "Please
remit the final payment to <address>"  Keep tabs on the
date you mailed it, and if you have not received payment
within 30 days, send a 2nd notice.  Write "2nd Notice" in
big red letters.  If nothing in another 30 days, send out a
"Final Notice" via certified letter.  If nothing, you really
can't do much else if you didn't get the contract in writing
with the agreed-to price and both of your signatures.  But
you will have acted like a professional in trying to collect
money owed to you, and most times the client will do the
right thing and mail you the money.

In the future, make sure you get a written contract detailing
prices, delivery times, and payment schedules, as well
as other items you want covered, such as who is responsible
for installation, how long you guarantee your work, etc.
Make sure you get the client's signature on the contract.

In my contract, I split payments into three... The 1st is for
design work and is equal to 10% of the quoted price.  This
is payable immediately and to be sent to me along with
the signed contract authorizing me to do the final design
work.  The 2nd payment is equal to 25% of the quoted
price, and is payable after the design has been approved
by the client.  The 3rd payment is for the remainder, and
is due on installation day.  If I'm not payed on installation
day, I don't install it.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 10:46:52 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Hot Glass Repair help
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:08:47 -0500
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Message text written by INTERNET:alewis@adelphia.net
>This is very close to the right answer. The right answer is "they =

can't really be repaired at all." There's simply to much stress for =

them to ever be anything other than decorative ... not useful.

Suggest to the clients that they have been given a mission from god =

to go buy new stemware.<

The clients don't care if the cut line is visible.  They just want
to pieces put back together again so that there is a stem
on the flower.  And they know the repaired stem is no longer
functional at supporting the weight of the top of the flower.
pj friend told me hexal or uv glue is the best I can do, so I'm
going with that.  And Lezlie gave me an excellent how-to
description of using the UV glue and black light set-up.  So
I'm trying that approach.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 11:16:54 1999
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X-Path: ipa.net!gecko
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: mobiles
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:50:10 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.65010.0>
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Howdy all.

I am curious as to what the best material to string mobiles together with
is.
I have been trying to use fishing line, and am pretty much fed up with it.
I had been looking for a thin, very flexible wire like string, but just
haven't found the right thing.

Is there anything in particular that y'all use?  (like mah accent?!)

Also, do you have any suggestions on what to use for the balancing bars of
the mobile.  I've used glass in some cases, but really want a thin metal
that I can twist each end into a tiny loop with.

I want to make some mobiles, but what I've turned out so far just don't look
professional.  So I figure I'll just consult the bungi-oracle.  (well THAT
almost sounds dirty!)  My own creativity seems to be at low tide for the
day.

Thanks!
Blake
:-)



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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 12:19:49 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:28:40 -0600
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>  such as who is responsible
> for installation, how long you guarantee your work, etc.
> Make sure you get the client's signature on the contract.


How long do *you* guarantee your work?  What exactly does that guarantee
cover?  

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 12:38:59 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: mobiles
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:33:08 -0600
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> I have been trying to use fishing line, and am pretty much fed up with it.
> I had been looking for a thin, very flexible wire like string, but just
> haven't found the right thing.


Maybe a bead shop would have what you are looking for.

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 13:13:17 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: J B <Beadnik3@webtv.net>
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Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:55:17 -0600
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J B wrote:
> 
> Suzanne asked:
> 
> >How long do *you* guarantee your work?
> >What exactly does that guarantee cover?
> 
> Interesting question, Suzanne.  I was recently approached by a customer
> who purchased a fused pin from me over a year ago.  She dropped it and
> it broke.... could I fix it???  I suggested she try and glue it
> together, but she did not think that would look good (neither do I....)
> What is an artist's obligation if something is damaged long after
> purchase, and it is not due to any defect in the piece????  How do
> others handle this.  (The pin, obviously can not be "fixed"... a new one
> would have to replace it).
> 
> Joan


When you are at a movie theater and you buy a pop, drop it and the
entire thing dumps when you havent had a cent...I think it is incredibly
nice *if they give you another...and you know what kind of markup is on
that $2.50 soda pop.  I would not ask them to, as once it was in my
hands I was responsible.

I cant imagine someone expecting you to repair for free, damage that was
caused by their own hands.  Now if something happened that seemed to be
because of poor structure or workmanship...that is a different story..
but what is that story?

Tulsa Suzanne


-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 13:42:50 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: mobiles
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:03:27 -0500
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I used hammered copper wire (like out of electrical wire) for the
cross pieces, thin welding rod for the primary cross piece, some
sort of chain arrangement for the "dangles" with glass pieces =

attached to chain via jump rings and fishing swivels. Clear as =

mud, eh?  You might also consider piano wire.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 13:57:08 1999
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From: Beadnik3@webtv.net (J B)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:11:49 -0500 (EST)
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Suzanne asked:
 
>How long do *you* guarantee your work?
>What exactly does that guarantee cover? 
Interesting question, Suzanne. I was
recently approached by a customer who purchased a fused pin from me over
a year ago. She dropped it and it broke.... could I fix it??? I
suggested she try and glue it together, but she did not think that would
look good (neither do I....) What is an artist's obligation if something
is damaged long after purchase, and it is not due to any defect in the
piece???? How do others handle this. (The pin, obviously can not be
"fixed"... a new one would have to replace it). 
Joan

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 14:31:22 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!barbaraelmore
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: HELP!  collecting debt
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:01:22 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.6122.0>
Precedence: bulk


Small claims court may be your best option, but check
locally to see if the total amount of your claim does
not exceed the limit set by individual states...for
instance, over $2000 in my state would be handled by
a different court system.

You do not need a lawyer to represent you, but you
must be ready to present good, solid evidence that
(1) you provided goods and/or services that to the
person and (2) you have dilligently tried to collect
that debt or take back possession of your product/merchandise.

Call the county of RESIDENCE of the person, not your
own, for more information.

Hope this helps!




_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 14:45:11 1999
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X-Path: tricountyi.net!grannyandpawpaw
From: "Granny And PawPaw" <grannyandpawpaw@tricountyi.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: mobiles
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:02:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.12224.0>
Precedence: bulk

The stuff you want is called Tiger Tail.  The better quality is Beadalon.
It is a twisted wire cord with plastic coating.  The item is held on with a
loop fastened with crimp tubes or beads.

Arnold

-----Original Message-----
From: Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 2:27 PM
Subject: mobiles


>
>Howdy all.
>
>I am curious as to what the best material to string mobiles together with
>is.
>I have been trying to use fishing line, and am pretty much fed up with it.
>I had been looking for a thin, very flexible wire like string, but just
>haven't found the right thing.
>
>Is there anything in particular that y'all use?  (like mah accent?!)
>
>Also, do you have any suggestions on what to use for the balancing bars of
>the mobile.  I've used glass in some cases, but really want a thin metal
>that I can twist each end into a tiny loop with.
>
>I want to make some mobiles, but what I've turned out so far just don't
look
>professional.  So I figure I'll just consult the bungi-oracle.  (well THAT
>almost sounds dirty!)  My own creativity seems to be at low tide for the
>day.
>
>Thanks!
>Blake
>:-)
>
>
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 14:59:45 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:45:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.124541.0>
References: <<1999Feb21.111149.0>>
Precedence: bulk

J B wrote:
> 
> Suzanne asked:
> 
> >How long do *you* guarantee your work?
> >What exactly does that guarantee cover?
> Interesting question, Suzanne. I was
> recently approached by a customer who purchased a fused pin from me over
> a year ago. She dropped it and it broke.... could I fix it??? I
> suggested she try and glue it together, but she did not think that would
> look good (neither do I....) What is an artist's obligation if something
> is damaged long after purchase, and it is not due to any defect in the
> piece???? How do others handle this. (The pin, obviously can not be
> "fixed"... a new one would have to replace it).
> Joan
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


for your situation, the "victim" would have to pay. if the fused pin
broked due to a COE problem, an odd expansion that took a long time to
develop, then it would be your problem. or if the pin came unglued from
the pin part, then fell. 

for a box if a hinge failed  (unstuck from the box), or if the chain
pulled away from the foil. i'd fix it for free (if it was my box and i
sold it to them. if they dropped it on the floor, then it's their
problem.

if a panel fell because the chain you attached streched and unlinked; or
a ring or the came pulled apart, causing the panel to fall and break,
then it could be your fault. of course if this happens you may have
medical bills and who knows what else to worry about. but it can be
tricky if they replaced a chain with something else, and it fell.

if a lamp falls over anf burns their house down it's their problem. but
if bad wiring in the lamp causes the fire, then it's your problem...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 15:55:41 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:45:03 -0800
Message-ID: <199902212345.PAA21720@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Katie,

ouch...this is one of those tough learning experiences, isn't it?

First, let me say that undercharging by half for your work does everyone a
disservice...it's unfair to you (as you've found out with this project), and
it's unfair to those of us who earn our living from creating stained glass.
It lowers the public's perception of what glass is worth, and makes it more
difficult for us to sell our work.

That said, let's figure out what's happened.  First, he got one heck of a
deal.  Second, it's not clear whether you had a deposit up front (I won't
even do anything more than a real rough conceptual sketch until I've got
approximately 50% of the project price in my hand), and third, you allowed
someone else to make the delivery, someone who isn't the person who put the
blood, sweat and tears into the work and who therefore has less invested in
getting the money as stated on the invoice.

Always get a deposit...I learned this the hard way.  Took an order from a
couple, and then in the ensuing couple of months while I produced the order
they decided to divorce.  Result...neither of them would pay for the glass,
so I was stuck with it.  With a deposit, you're not out of pocket for
materials if clients divorce, die or change their minds (all things out of
your control).

I would NEVER, NEVER, NEVER allow someone else to deliver my work (unless I
have a VISA card number on file), nor do I ever let work leave my studio
unless it's been paid IN FULL.  When doing installations, I make it clear
that I expect balance of account in full before I leave the premises.

I would have expected your boyfriend to say something like...Thanks for
putting some money down on the sidelights.  We'll hold them for you until
you bring the balance along.  After all, he should be taking your side,
right, not a strangers...

Now, it sounds like you're thinking that the client deliberately shorted you
the money since it sounds like you're not comfortable just asking for the
money.  Who knows, maybe yes, maybe no.  I have no idea how good a judge of
character your boyfriend is, nor do I have any idea what your client's
character is.  I have no way of knowing whether your client is forgetful,
made an honest mistake or is a slick dealer.

I would suggest taking a deep breath, mustering all the balls you have
(while hoping you don't have to use them) and go to the fellow's home and
knock on the door.  (While you're knocking note whether installation is
complete...if not, subtly try and locate windows right away just in case).
Although I'm loaded for bear, I'd start with a "I was in the neighborhood
and thought I'd drop by to collect the balance to save you another trip to
the studio" line.  He may say great and give you the money...if not I'd go
to the "there must be some mistake...the price we agreed upon is $xxx and
you only paid $yyy so there's a balance owing.  Could you please cover that
today? (I'm assuming you also had a written contract to back this up...take
it over with you).  Hopefully you will receive your money at this point.

Still not getting the money? I'd go to the fallback position, since at this
point it would be pretty clear he's a slick dealer, perhaps trying to evade
payment, so...

Moral of the story...if he balks, you don't have much to go on but your
personal persuasveness or repossession of the windows to get the money.  And
if he's an out and out shyster and the windows haven't been installed, I'd
scoop them out to my vehicle right away, while handing him a receipt clearly
showing the amount he's paid and the balance still owing.  Let him know
clearly and politely that "a mistake was indeed made" and the windows should
never have been released without full payment, and that you would be happy
to release them once you receive the addl $200.

Hopefully it won't come to this, but remember, nobody's gonna look after you
but you.  I would indeed go the extra mile and keep cool as long as possible
while steadily and constantly repeating to the client that the work is not
paid in full.  Experts say that when returning items to clearly and
consisely repeat over and over the desired outcome...can't see why it
wouldn't work the other way also.

This is just my feeling...I'm pretty sure there will be others on bungi who
will say something like "it's not worth your reputation"...however my
feeling is that if indeed it isn't a simple oversight or confusion that can
be easily and simply rectified, that this person probably does this all the
time and is known in the community for his shady business dealings, so
reclaiming your windows probably won't be a strike against you.  Let your
gut be your guide in this, but don't be a weenie either just to be liked or
to be nice either.  If you listen to your intuition, you'll understand
what's going on.

I have one client who refused to put down a deposit on his second window
claiming he'd established good credit with me, but a couple of other things
he said made me wonder.  He also had a real sob story to tell about a
sandblast artist who'd also done some work for him, and then didn't get back
to him for the second project he wanted done.  I'm seeing a pattern here
since the window that the first artist didn't get back to him on is also the
second project he has in mind for me...the one he he same one he won't put a
deposit on, so I think he may have a pattern of pushing artists to the max
for the minimum return.  Don't know about you, but that's not the sort of
person I want for a client.

Good luck with whatever course of action you decide upon, and let us know
what happens.

C.


Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 16:27:22 1999
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X-Path: bigpond.com!ktsplash
From: "Katherine Walters" <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: How did he do it?
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:22:55 +1000
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.82255.0>
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Albert...
A-hah....I getcha. Puts a whole new slant on the info contained in the book,
but at least nothing can take away from the photographs. Another piece of
info contained in the same book was that sometimes Tiffany studios would
create their own came, textured specifically for the place in the window it
was to be used, eg a barky texture for lead lines in trees.  Would this be
true?
Katie.



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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 17:28:43 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:20:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.152050.0>
Precedence: bulk

How's this for a reply:

Gee, I'm sorry it can't be fixed.  What a shame... I have some new pieces=

you might really like ....would you like to see them?  I'll even give you=
 a
 ___% discount since you like the other pin so much.

Nothing like another sale to save the day! ;-)

Best, =


Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 18:27:38 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:54:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.155426.0>
Precedence: bulk

We have never had a problem receiving payment or having a bad
check in 25 years of doing stained glass.  Our terms are simple:
50% down and 50% upon completion/installation. (Sometimes windows can't b=
e
installed until home construction is completed, so we
get paid and store the windows until they can be installed.)  We don't
ordinarily do contracts exactly... just a handwritten receipt out of a
two-part receipt book we pick up at Walmart.  The customer gets one when
they make their deposit and we keep a copy.  We don't charge for the colo=
r
scale drawing of their design either; experience has taught us that we
often "get" the job because we're willing to prove to the customer our
worth before they lay down a dime.  They know exactly what they're buying=

and the exact cost and there are no changes after the full-size cartoon i=
s
drafted.  95% of our scale drawings clinch the sale.  The other 5% we mak=
e
available to future customers or use as "spec" pieces for exhibitions or
our shop windows where they also eventually sell (usually for double the
cost!)

When we work with churches, we usually do up a formal bid outlining exact=
ly
what we're offering for the cost and including our terms... this is
submitted to the pastor/committee.  Only recently have we had a
circumstance that required a formal contract.... the Army chapel
restoration we've been working on for the past several months.  When I go=
t
the 50-page contract from the general contractor, I called and told them
the paperwork was too much trouble and they would have to get another S.G=

From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 18:58:32 1999
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X-Path: webtv.net!Beadnik3
From: Beadnik3@webtv.net (J B)
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com (Dani Greer)
Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:51:28 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.165128.0>
References: <<GreerStudios@compuserve.com>>
Precedence: bulk

Dani wrote:

>Gee, I'm sorry it can't be fixed. What a
>shame... I have some new pieces=3D 
>you might really like ....would you like to
>see them? I'll even give you=3D
>a 
>=A0___% discount since you like the other
>pin so much.

I LIKE that answer... great idea!!! Thanks!

Joan

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 21 19:28:51 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Try again:Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:51:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb21.165145.0>
Precedence: bulk



-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Dani Greer, =

To:     Carol Swann, INTERNET:seaspray@mail.island.net
        =

CC:     [unknown], INTERNET:glass@bungi.com
        =

Date:   2/21/99  6:45 PM

RE:     Re: HELP recovering payment

We have never had a problem receiving payment or having a bad
check in 25 years of doing stained glass.  Our terms are simple:
50% down and 50% upon completion/installation. (Sometimes windows can't b=
e
installed until home construction is completed, so we
get paid and store the windows until they can be installed.)  We don't
ordinarily do contracts exactly... just a handwritten receipt out of a
two-part receipt book we pick up at Walmart.  The customer gets one when
they make their deposit and we keep a copy.  We don't charge for the colo=
r
scale drawing of their design either; experience has taught us that we
often "get" the job because we're willing to prove to the customer our
worth before they lay down a dime.  They know exactly what they're buying=

and the exact cost and there are no changes after the full-size cartoon i=
s
drafted.  95% of our scale drawings clinch the sale.  The other 5% we mak=
e
available to future customers or use as "spec" pieces for exhibitions or
our shop windows where they also eventually sell (usually for double the
cost!)

When we work with churches, we usually do up a formal bid outlining exact=
ly
what we're offering for the cost and including our terms... this is
submitted to the pastor/committee.  Only recently have we had a
circumstance that required a formal contract.... the Army chapel
restoration we've been working on for the past several months.  When I go=
t
the 50-page contract from the general contractor, I called and told them
the paperwork was too much trouble and they would have to get another S.G=

From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 03:58:30 1999
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X-Path: usaor.net!3hounds
From: Gloria and George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: no e-mails ?????
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:33:05 -0200
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.4335.0>
Precedence: bulk

just checking as I haven't received any incoming mail from the bungi
line. please verify that I am still on the list. Thank you.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 06:59:45 1999
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summitstudio
From: Mike Peck <summitstudio@worldnet.att.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:48:36 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.24836.0>
References: <<1999Feb21.152050.0>>
Organization: Summit Stained Glass  (http://www.summitstudio.com)
Precedence: bulk

Just a side note:  our local SGO franchisee is touting a 10 year
warranty on his work ...  and that prompted a potential client to ask me
about guarantees on real stained glass.  I told him that generally my
work only lasts for a couple of centuries before you have to throw it
out.

Mike Peck

Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> How's this for a reply:
> 
> Gee, I'm sorry it can't be fixed.  What a shame... I have some new pieces=
> 
> you might really like ....would you like to see them?  I'll even give you=
>  a
>  ___% discount since you like the other pin so much.
> 
> Nothing like another sale to save the day! ;-)
> 
> Best, =
> 
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 07:22:27 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: RE: NG Mime problems.
Date: Mon Feb 22 06:36:45 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.41445.0>
Precedence: bulk

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5E6E.9F033F5A
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Tim 

I am sending this to you direct and through bungi.

Mime is turned off and mail is sent in plain text.
I noticed that mail sent through bungi arrives back at my system with as a
mime message. 
Mail sent direct does not.

Let me know how the two messages arrive. 

Vic M.
Vmodaino@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Tim Atwood [mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca]
		Sent:	Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:02 PM
		To:	Glass List
		Subject:	Re: Beginner classes

		Yes, I was going to mention it also.

		daver! is sending messages that are not in plain text.  They
are probably in
		HTML or MIME format.  They will not pass through most
gateways or firewalls
		and may
		even be being zapped by the list server itself.

		daver!: change your default format for the glass list
address to "plain
		text".  In MS Outlook Express this is done by setting up the
glass list
		address in your address book and checking the box "Send
E-mail using plain
		text only".  Similar in Windows Messaging (Exchange).  I
don't remember what
		it is in Eudora, but I do know it is there.

		Actually for everyone else, this is why my own "came vs.
foil" message
		turned up missing or strange in most people's mail.  I was
on a new laptop
		and I had not set it up right.  Unfortunately I also deleted
the text of the
		message I sent because I was just borrowing the laptop to
try it out.  I
		don't have time to re-type it right now, so I guess that
particular thread
		has gone to the great bit bucket in the sky for the
moment...

		-----Original Message-----
		From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>
		To: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net
		<daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net>
		Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:35 PM
		Subject: Re: Beginner classes


		>All of the E-Mails that I receive  from you are blank.
		>Does anyone else have this problem?
		>Goldpaws
		>
		>daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:
		>----
		>For subscription changes, please mail to:
glass-request@bungi.com
		>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
		>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


		----
		For subscription changes, please mail to:
glass-request@bungi.com
		To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
		Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5E6E.9F033F5A
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>RE: NG Mime problems.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Tim </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I am sending this to you direct and =
through bungi.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mime is turned off and mail is sent in =
plain text.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I noticed that mail sent through =
bungi arrives back at my system with as a mime message. </FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Mail sent direct does not.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Let me know how the two messages =
arrive. </FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodaino@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>
<UL><UL>
<P><A NAME=3D"_MailData"><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original =
Message-----</FONT></A>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tim Atwood [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca">mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca</A>]</FONT>=
</B>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:02 PM</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Glass List</FONT>
<BR><B><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT>=
</B> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Re: Beginner classes</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Yes, I was going to mention it =
also.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">daver! is sending messages that are =
not in plain text.&nbsp; They are probably in</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">HTML or MIME format.&nbsp; They will =
not pass through most gateways or firewalls</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and may</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">even be being zapped by the list =
server itself.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">daver!: change your default format for =
the glass list address to &quot;plain</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">text&quot;.&nbsp; In MS Outlook =
Express this is done by setting up the glass list</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">address in your address book and =
checking the box &quot;Send E-mail using plain</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">text only&quot;.&nbsp; Similar in =
Windows Messaging (Exchange).&nbsp; I don't remember what</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">it is in Eudora, but I do know it is =
there.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Actually for everyone else, this is =
why my own &quot;came vs. foil&quot; message</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">turned up missing or strange in most =
people's mail.&nbsp; I was on a new laptop</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">and I had not set it up right.&nbsp; =
Unfortunately I also deleted the text of the</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">message I sent because I was just =
borrowing the laptop to try it out.&nbsp; I</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">don't have time to re-type it right =
now, so I guess that particular thread</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">has gone to the great bit bucket in =
the sky for the moment...</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">-----Original Message-----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">From: Goldpaws =
&lt;gmanning@banet.net&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To: =
daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">&lt;daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:35 =
PM</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Subject: Re: Beginner classes</FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;All of the E-Mails that I =
receive&nbsp; from you are blank.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Does anyone else have this =
problem?</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Goldpaws</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano =
wrote:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;For subscription changes, please =
mail to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">&gt;Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
<BR>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">----</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">For subscription changes, please mail =
to: glass-request@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">To send to the =
list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to: =
glass@bungi.com</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Archives available at <A =
HREF=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass" =
TARGET=3D"_blank">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>
</P>
</UL></UL>
</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5E6E.9F033F5A--
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 07:41:26 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: worldnet.att.net!swetinusa
From: "Jane M.S." <swetinusa@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: No Mail ?!?
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:00:18 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.3018.0>
Precedence: bulk

Have not rec'd any mail over w/end. Is the server down?
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 07:46:30 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:43:01 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summitstudio
From: Mike Peck <summitstudio@worldnet.att.net>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:43:05 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.2435.0>
References: <<1999Feb21.155426.0>>
Organization: Summit Stained Glass  (http://www.summitstudio.com)
Precedence: bulk

Dani,

My experiences have been almost the same as yours when it comes to
working WITH people. Keep the terms simple and it eliminates any
confusion, and I've only been stiffed once in 20+ years.  I also went
through one of those "50-page" contract situations with a contractor
working on an Army church in Ft Leavenworth.  It really wasn't the
contractor's fault as he was simply writting his contract to conform to
the government's guidelines.  But, it's no wonder why the government is
notoriously overcharged ... I think you have to charge a premium on
government contracts in order to cover the time you spend doing all the
stuff to comply with their requirements.  I think the one requirement
that was most irritating was one covering "retains" .... the government
wanted to "retain" 10% of the total payment for a period of one year,
just in case something went wrong with the work.  Their "retains"
requirement was their insurance that I would honor a call back relating
to poor workmanship.  I eventually passed on the contract.

Mike Peck



Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> We have never had a problem receiving payment or having a bad
> check in 25 years of doing stained glass.  Our terms are simple:
> 50% down and 50% upon completion/installation. (Sometimes windows can't b=
> e
> installed until home construction is completed, so we
> get paid and store the windows until they can be installed.)  We don't
> ordinarily do contracts exactly... just a handwritten receipt out of a
> two-part receipt book we pick up at Walmart.  The customer gets one when
> they make their deposit and we keep a copy.  We don't charge for the colo=
> r
> scale drawing of their design either; experience has taught us that we
> often "get" the job because we're willing to prove to the customer our
> worth before they lay down a dime.  They know exactly what they're buying=
> 
> and the exact cost and there are no changes after the full-size cartoon i=
> s
> drafted.  95% of our scale drawings clinch the sale.  The other 5% we mak=
> e
> available to future customers or use as "spec" pieces for exhibitions or
> our shop windows where they also eventually sell (usually for double the
> cost!)
> 
> When we work with churches, we usually do up a formal bid outlining exact=
> ly
> what we're offering for the cost and including our terms... this is
> submitted to the pastor/committee.  Only recently have we had a
> circumstance that required a formal contract.... the Army chapel
> restoration we've been working on for the past several months.  When I go=
> t
> the 50-page contract from the general contractor, I called and told them
> the paperwork was too much trouble and they would have to get another S.G=
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 08:06:15 1999
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	id <m10ExYH-00008va@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:45:45 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon Feb 22 07:44:44 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.52244.0>
Precedence: bulk

i agree with dani on this. i have been doing glass professionally for five
years, and have only ever had one check bounce (and that was stupid on my
part, i used to work for her, and she would bounce out paychecks, so i
should have known)
i found that my sales increased dramatically after we started taking charge
cards, especially at shows...
50% down and 50% on completion..if someone orders something at a show, same
thing applies...i do charge $25 up front to do the original drawings, and
then apply that to the finished piece.  i found that kept people from just
having things drawn up for the fun of it (ran into this problem at a couple
shows, people would want to have a window, but then would never agree to
have it made after i spent the time doing the drawing....kind of like the
tire kickers in the used car lots)
i also do not formally write up a contract, use a receipt pad from staples,
write on it that the payment is a 50% deposit, the finished price total, and
amount due at time of receipt of finished product.
know this doesn't help that fact that you don't have the money for the
sidelights already done, but i would do as christie suggested, send them an
invoice.  i would probably make one phone call first, to suggest they put a
check in the mail.

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616
-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Date: Sunday, February 21, 1999 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment


>We have never had a problem receiving payment or having a bad
>check in 25 years of doing stained glass.  Our terms are simple:
>50% down and 50% upon completion/installation. (Sometimes windows can't b=
>e
>installed until home construction is completed, so we
>get paid and store the windows until they can be installed.)  We don't
>ordinarily do contracts exactly... just a handwritten receipt out of a
>two-part receipt book we pick up at Walmart.  The customer gets one when
>they make their deposit and we keep a copy.  We don't charge for the colo=
>r
>scale drawing of their design either; experience has taught us that we
>often "get" the job because we're willing to prove to the customer our
>worth before they lay down a dime.  They know exactly what they're buying=
>
>and the exact cost and there are no changes after the full-size cartoon i=
>s
>drafted.  95% of our scale drawings clinch the sale.  The other 5% we mak=
>e
>available to future customers or use as "spec" pieces for exhibitions or
>our shop windows where they also eventually sell (usually for double the
>cost!)
>
>When we work with churches, we usually do up a formal bid outlining exact=
>ly
>what we're offering for the cost and including our terms... this is
>submitted to the pastor/committee.  Only recently have we had a
>circumstance that required a formal contract.... the Army chapel
>restoration we've been working on for the past several months.  When I go=
>t
>the 50-page contract from the general contractor, I called and told them
>the paperwork was too much trouble and they would have to get another S.G=
>

----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 08:35:33 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:55:23 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:00:44 +0000
Message-ID: <199902221553.KAA26466@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> Just a side note:  our local SGO franchisee is touting a 10 year
> warranty on his work ...  and that prompted a potential client to ask me
> about guarantees on real stained glass.  I told him that generally my
> work only lasts for a couple of centuries before you have to throw it
> out.

How long is your guarantee, though? <smile> 20-30 years? Or if your 
studio's around in 200 years, would you restore it at no cost? Just 
curious, since some clients (universities with chapels, US gov't 
sites, etc.) do ask for guarantees. Some home builders / owners might 
do so, as well.

albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 09:05:59 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:20:48 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:20:00 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.16200.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/21/99 11:27:20 AM, esavad@home.net wrote:

>HEPA i pronounce it Hepah like peppa stands for High Efficiency
>Particulate Air - it could really be pronounced any way you like.

I pronounce it "respiratory system preservation." As soon as I get a few
bucks, I'm buying one. (Having finally gotten my voice back after 2 months of
creaking and croaking, I want to keep it!)


		---------Sparks
----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 09:15:03 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:23:34 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: mobiles
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:20:10 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.162010.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/21/99 3:40:03 PM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com wrote:

>Maybe a bead shop would have what you are looking for.

There's something called "tiger tail" that's a braided strand. I think it
comes in at least 3 thicknesses; I recall seeing references in a catalog to
tiger tail, rat tail, and mouse tail.


-----------Sparks 	(strung out as usual, someone pass the lime & coconut
					please!)
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 09:24:11 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:20:04 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.16204.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/22/99 10:02:07 AM, summitstudio@worldnet.att.net wrote:

>I told him that generally my
>work only lasts for a couple of centuries before you have to throw it
>out.

!!!!!!!!!!! GOOD ANSUH !!!!!!!!!


		---------Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 09:39:38 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:44:26 -0800
Message-ID: <199902221644.IAA32647@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

I agree with you all...never been stiffed on a cheque myself, etc. etc.,
however if you refer back to the original post, the problem exists and we've
been asked for how to "fix things" not how to prevent them from happening.

I've seen only 2 posts that address this...mine (assertive approach) and
Christie's (passive) approach, plus one on small claims court in the US,
which doesn't help the writer from Australia.

I think what the reader really needs right now is not how to avoid the
problem (it exists)...what' needed are creative solutions...anyone else got
any ideas.  I'm curious too since people sometimes find me to be too out
front...I'm always looking to learn myself.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 10:00:23 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: worldnet.att.net!vlg
From: "Vincent LaGreca" <vlg@worldnet.att.net>
To: <Witchdoc3@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Allentown Explosion?
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:26:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.6262.0>
Precedence: bulk

I'm not having a great week!  The building that blew up was 749 Robel.  You
ask how I know?  Because we own(ed?) a piece of it.

Ciao

Vic
-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Allentown Explosion?


>
>In a message dated 2/20/99 1:43:05 AM, gunnx4@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
>>Just heard on my moms list that there was a big explosion in
>>Allentown, Pa?
>>
>>What do any of you know about it?  Everyone Ok?
>
>According to the Philadelphia Inquirer:
>
>============================
>
>A huge explosion rocked an industrial park outside Allentown last night,
>trapping at least six people in the wreckage and blanketing the area under
a
>noxious chemical cloud. Emergency personnel worked into the early hours of
the
>morning to reach the people feared trapped inside the flattened building on
>Roble Road in the Lehigh Valley Industrial Park, Hanover Township. The site
is
>less than a mile from Lehigh Valley International Airport. [...]
>
>No fatalities were reported. [...] Officials said at least 10 people were
>injured. [...]
>
>[T]he chemical released into the air by the explosion -- hydroxylamine, a
>reducing agent resembling ammonia -- was not toxic and could be washed off
>with soap and water.
>
>However, the fumes from the 8:15 p.m. blast prompted emergency officials to
>establish a one-mile-radius containment area and urge area residents to
stay
>indoors with their windows closed. [...]
>
>============================
>
>I think this is pretty close to Warner-Crivellaro. If so, I hope they
didn't
>get shook up (I also heard reports that people as much as 15 miles away
heard
>and/or felt the explosion) and their inventory turned into instant mosaic!
>Charles, are you out there? How's things this morning?
>
>
> --------------Sparks
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 10:37:43 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Breathing Safe & Clean Air
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:19:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.81921.0>
Organization: SOC Enterprises
Precedence: bulk

By now we all understand how important this issue is. I have been
looking into the purchase of something.

I presently use a respirator. I work below a ceiling fan plus I also
have a small clip on fan. When the weather is warmer I also work with
the sliding glass doors open. Truth be told I only use the respirator
when I plan on soldering for a long period. It gets hot & sweaty. I also
have not figured out when I need to change the filters. They look clean
sooooo when?

These are my questions...
1) Can an air cleaner with HEPA filter take the place of the fume trap?

Most of these cleaners deliver clean air (blank) times per hour in a
(size)
e.g... 6 times per hour in a 8'x10' room.

 It appears the fume trap needs to be almost "on" your work to catch to
fumes... so will the "whole room" air cleaner take its place?

2) I also notice that there is a Smoke Absorber available. It is smaller
then the fume trap and costs 3 times as much. Is anyone familiar with
this product?

These are my criteria for the purchase
Size
How noisy
Cost

K See

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 11:03:04 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:31:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.83131.0>
Organization: SOC Enterprises
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I have decided to bite the bullet & get a kiln.

I plan on slumping glass & fusing designs to incorporate into my pieces.

I don't want to limit myself by starting off too small (cause I know
myself) so I'm thinking something like the Evenheat 14" floor kiln
w/pyrometer. 120V

Also, of all the books on fusing et al...what would you recommend?

I need suggestions & recommendations

TIA
K See

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 11:21:10 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Carol Swann" <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:31:44 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.23144.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>I think what the reader really needs right now is not how to avoid
the
problem (it exists)...what' needed are creative solutions...anyone
else got
any ideas.  I'm curious too since people sometimes find me to be too
out
front...I'm always looking to learn myself.

C.<<

It is hard to give a solution to this problem beyond the obvious ones
that have already been given. Lets face it, this stained glasser set
herself up for what she got. Now it is time to at least learn from
this A$200.00 lesson. If a few tough comments turn her into a Carol
Swann than she has benefited way beyond the cost of the lesson.

First, she way underbid the job and thereby destroyed the opportunity
for someone to make a reasonable monitary return. Frankly, I resent
that and and do not feel overly bad about her now having to pay the
price for her sins. :-( I suspect the buyer was looking for someone
that was hungry. It is a sign of an easy mark.

While I have had the 100% success reported by others of taking 50% up
front and the balance on delivery, there are more than a few people
out there that make a plan of screwing hungry artists. Early on I ran
into one that had such grand plans that I felt honored to work for him
and asked for nothing up front. Ended up receiving nothing for my work
and bounced check charges on top of that.

I know of a studio that hard charges at high end contracts and ends up
not collecting the final payment on at least a couple of jobs a year.
Typically, the glass is installed and a rubber check issued or in some
cases final payment is withheld for a trivial problem that would
require a great deal of effort to correct- such as a tiny scratch on a
bevel in the middle of a large window that has just been installed.
One can always find something as an excuse for non payment.

The above aside, I do hope she collects her due. I also hope she
learns from this and follows the good advice given. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 11:37:02 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Got an idea
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:29:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.22934.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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And it will probably go no farther than that.
But....... Howard are you lurking?
I have an old lamp, it has been used and abused, but I love it.
I want to make a shade for it.  I do not want to make a domed type
shade, I want to make a prairie type.
The lamp base is a replica, I don't know what you call it.  It is a
holder for the wooden poker thingy they use on sailing boats in the
knotted ropes.  Ya know so you can get the wet rope to unknot easily.
You see them all the time on old pirate movies, they are always hitting
someone over the head with them.  Well this lamp base is the holder of
two and they can be removed from the base.
So my question is, can you put a prairie lamp shade on an old lamp base?
Is there a gadget that you can solder the shade to, that will fit on the
lamp? And finally, can you make an intricate pattern on the front of the
lamp shade? I want to do a galleon sailing on the high seas. Then the
sides and back would be just plain enough to ensure good solder lines. 
Would this cause the shade to be constantly off balance?
Don't worry about meeting electrical code.  This is just for me and I
won't sue myself!!!
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 12:37:50 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:13:14 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.201314.0>
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In a message dated 2/22/99 9:40:30 AM Pacific Standard Time,
seaspray@mail.island.net writes:

<< 've seen only 2 posts that address this...mine (assertive approach) and
 Christie's (passive) approach, plus one on small claims court in the US,
 which doesn't help the writer from Australia. >>

I suspect they have some equivelent in Australia.

They may also have a "mechanic's lien" law.   This always a lien to be placed
against the customer's house until the debt is paid.  I know in California it
is a very simple process.  The law even allows unpaid subcontractors to place
liens on property even if the general  contractor has been paid - if the sub
hasn't been paid.

This is quite unfair to the homeowner, but it's the way our law works.

The lien doesn't guarentee payment, however it makes it difficult to sell the
property until the debt has been cleared.
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 13:03:02 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Got an idea
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:26:42 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.42642.0>
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>>The lamp base is a replica, I don't know what you call it.  It is a
holder for the wooden poker thingy they use on sailing boats in the
knotted ropes.  Ya know so you can get the wet rope to unknot easily.
You see them all the time on old pirate movies, they are always
hitting
someone over the head with them.  Well this lamp base is the holder of
two and they can be removed from the base.<<

Let's get our nomenclature squared away!

A belaying pin is used for belaying (making fast) lines (not ropes) to
and to hang the coil of line on. It is also excellent for hitting
someone on the head. This is likely what you have.

A wooden fid is is a slender cone used to open up the lay of the line
such as when splicing and for picking wet knots.

A marlin spike is made of steel more slender than a wooden fid and
used to open up the lay of wire rope.

Just knew this Navy stuff would come in handy someday. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 14:44:22 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@zephyr.cyberlink.bc.ca>, <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Mime problems.
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:01:40 -0800
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This one came blank again.  I notice some weirdness with the "!" stuff in
the return address.  Perhaps Albert or someone else in charge of the list
server needs to look at what is happening.

-----Original Message-----
From: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 11:02 AM
Subject: RE: NG Mime problems.



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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 15:15:18 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:24:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.42446.0>
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A difficult question to answer.  Collecting on bad payments seems to be a
matter of personality as much as anything else.  Personally for a $200 bad
payment I would:
1. Talk aggressively, but without being threatening, to the offending party
and see if I could get the payment.
2. Depending on who and what the circumstances were, I might warn the other
artists in the area about this person.  This only works in a small town
though - in a large city you can not possibly talk to enough artists to make
a difference.
3. Cut my losses.  For $200 it would be more effort to make a case in small
claims court than the $200 was worth.  In Canada the other party can miss
two court appointments before the court will give a default judgement on a
small claims case at the third court appearence.  Anyone who knows this can
waste hours and hours of your time before you would even get a judgement.
And once you have a judgement you still may have problems collecting.

However, several other artists I know would go to small claims court for
much smaller amounts just to get back at the person who ripped them off.
Others I know would never do any work without at least half the money up
front and/or a signed contract.

Personally I am quite liberal with extending credit, payment spread out over
several months, accepting cheques, verbal contracts, etc.  Most of the time
the people are very greatful and pay everything properly.  I feel I have
made a lot of sales by doing this that would have been lost otherwise.  I
feel the profit I have made from these extra sales more than makes up for
the few losses I have had.

I know I am in the minority on this one.  So every one load up your guns and
tell me what an idiot I am for letting these types of people cheat me.
However, if you would look at it from an objective business standpoint I
think you would find the return on investment from being helpful and
flexible about payment for your work more than makes up for any bad payment
losses.

-----Original Message-----
From: KTSPLASH <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: 'glass@bungi.com' <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 10:32 PM
Subject: HELP recovering payment


>Hello Bungians, I've been lurking about watching
>and learning from this most excellent group of people.
>I am a stained glass hobbyist, just starting to sell items to people
> in my area, mostly people I know, but some who have been sent
> to me by people I know.
>I was wondering have any of you professional people got any advice
>for me on taking payments for my work.  Obviously at this point I am
> not charging anywhere near professional prices, although I hope
>some time in the future to be a professional, I am more grateful for
> the opportunity to hone my skills.  I do charge people at least the
>cost of materials, and it seems fair to also charge a bit for my time.
>I have a particular fellow who agreed on a price for 6 sidelights for his
>home.  They measured approx 3'10" by 1' for each sidelight, and were
>quite intricate, since I designed them myself - and didn't quite realize
>how much work I was creating for myself! We agreed on $900
> Australian (about $1500 US (I think)). Unfortunately, I wasn't
>here when he picked them up and when he paid less than agreed,
> my boyfriend took him at his word that the remainder ( about
>$200 Australian) would be paid.
>I think he got a great deal on this, a friend of mine who is a
>professional told me the workmanship was very good, and that
> for the intricacy of the design etc, if he'd had them done by a
>"Proper Professional" he would have been charged much much
> more, up to double what we agreed on.
>I'm wondering if any one has any advice for me on whether I
>should just cut my losses, or if anyone else has had a similar
>experience and has a tried and true money-extracting technique!!
>Also, any advice for the future on asking for payment?
> Should I ask for a percentage up front, or full amount up
> front, or a payment scheme such as a payment at beginning,
>half way and end?
>Lost and getting desperate,
>Katie Walters, Qld, Australia.
>
>----
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 15:46:58 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Guaranteeing your work
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:06:18 -0500
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Message text written by INTERNET:summitstudio@worldnet.att.net
>I told him that generally my
work only lasts for a couple of centuries before you have to throw it
out.<

Great come-back!  Nothing like having history to support your claims!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 15:47:31 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Re: NG Mime problems.
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:57:06 -0800
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0070_01BE5E6B.3B85F920
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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This message came through great.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Modiano, Victor <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
    To: 'Tim Atwood' <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>; 'glass@bungi.com' =
<glass@bungi.com>
    Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 10:45 AM
    Subject: RE: NG Mime problems.
   =20
   =20
    Tim=20

    I am sending this to you direct and through bungi.=20

    Mime is turned off and mail is sent in plain text.=20
    I noticed that mail sent through bungi arrives back at my system =
with as a mime message.=20
    Mail sent direct does not.=20

    Let me know how the two messages arrive.=20

    Vic M.=20
    Vmodaino@ctronsoft.com=20

            -----Original Message-----=20
            From:   Tim Atwood [mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca]=20
            Sent:   Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:02 PM=20
            To:     Glass List=20
            Subject:        Re: Beginner classes=20

            Yes, I was going to mention it also.=20

            daver! is sending messages that are not in plain text.  They =
are probably in=20
            HTML or MIME format.  They will not pass through most =
gateways or firewalls=20
            and may=20
            even be being zapped by the list server itself.=20

            daver!: change your default format for the glass list =
address to "plain=20
            text".  In MS Outlook Express this is done by setting up the =
glass list=20
            address in your address book and checking the box "Send =
E-mail using plain=20
            text only".  Similar in Windows Messaging (Exchange).  I =
don't remember what=20
            it is in Eudora, but I do know it is there.=20

            Actually for everyone else, this is why my own "came vs. =
foil" message=20
            turned up missing or strange in most people's mail.  I was =
on a new laptop=20
            and I had not set it up right.  Unfortunately I also deleted =
the text of the=20
            message I sent because I was just borrowing the laptop to =
try it out.  I=20
            don't have time to re-type it right now, so I guess that =
particular thread=20
            has gone to the great bit bucket in the sky for the =
moment...=20

            -----Original Message-----=20
            From: Goldpaws <gmanning@banet.net>=20
            To: daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net=20
            <daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net>=20
            Date: Friday, February 19, 1999 8:35 PM=20
            Subject: Re: Beginner classes=20

           =20
           =20
            >All of the E-Mails that I receive  from you are blank.=20
            >Does anyone else have this problem?=20
            >Goldpaws=20
            >=20
            >daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:=20
            >----=20
            >For subscription changes, please mail to: =
glass-request@bungi.com=20
            >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com=20
            >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass=20

           =20
           =20
            ----=20
            For subscription changes, please mail to: =
glass-request@bungi.com=20
            To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com=20
            Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass=20


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<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type><TITLE>RE: NG Mime problems.</TITLE><!DOCTYPE =
HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#008080>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>This message came through =
great.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 solid 2px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
    <DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><B>-----Original =
Message-----</B><BR><B>From:=20
    </B>Modiano, Victor &lt;<A=20
    =
href=3D"mailto:vmodiano@ctronsoft.com">vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</A>&gt;<BR>=
<B>To:=20
    </B>'Tim Atwood' &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca">atwoods@aisl.bc.ca</A>&gt;; <A=20
    href=3D"mailto:'glass@bungi.com'">'glass@bungi.com'</A> &lt;<A=20
    href=3D"mailto:glass@bungi.com">glass@bungi.com</A>&gt;<BR><B>Date:=20
    </B>Monday, February 22, 1999 10:45 AM<BR><B>Subject: </B>RE: NG =
Mime=20
    problems.<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Tim </FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am sending this to you direct and =
through=20
    bungi.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mime is turned off and mail is sent =
in plain=20
    text.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I noticed that mail =
sent through=20
    bungi arrives back at my system with as a mime message. =
</FONT><BR><FONT=20
    face=3DArial size=3D2>Mail sent direct does not.</FONT> </P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Let me know how the two messages =
arrive.=20
    </FONT></P>
    <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Vic M.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
    size=3D2>Vmodaino@ctronsoft.com</FONT> </P>
    <UL>
        <UL>
            <P><A name=3D_MailData><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>-----Original=20
            Message-----</FONT></A> <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>From:&nbsp;&nbsp; Tim Atwood [<A=20
            =
href=3D"mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca">mailto:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca</A>]</FONT><=
/B>=20
            <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Sent:&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT=20
            face=3DArial size=3D2>Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:02 =
PM</FONT>=20
            <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>To:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B> <FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>Glass List</FONT> <BR><B><FONT face=3DArial=20
            =
size=3D2>Subject:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></B>=20
            <FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Re: Beginner classes</FONT> </P>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, I was going to mention =
it=20
            also.</FONT> </P>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>daver! is sending messages =
that are not=20
            in plain text.&nbsp; They are probably in</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
            face=3DArial size=3D2>HTML or MIME format.&nbsp; They will =
not pass=20
            through most gateways or firewalls</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>and may</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>even =
be being=20
            zapped by the list server itself.</FONT> </P>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>daver!: change your default =
format for=20
            the glass list address to &quot;plain</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>text&quot;.&nbsp; In MS Outlook Express this is =
done by=20
            setting up the glass list</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>address=20
            in your address book and checking the box &quot;Send E-mail =
using=20
            plain</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>text =
only&quot;.&nbsp;=20
            Similar in Windows Messaging (Exchange).&nbsp; I don't =
remember=20
            what</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>it is in Eudora, =
but I do=20
            know it is there.</FONT> </P>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Actually for everyone else, =
this is why=20
            my own &quot;came vs. foil&quot; message</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>turned up missing or strange in most people's =
mail.&nbsp; I=20
            was on a new laptop</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>and I had not=20
            set it up right.&nbsp; Unfortunately I also deleted the text =
of=20
            the</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>message I sent =
because I was=20
            just borrowing the laptop to try it out.&nbsp; I</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
            face=3DArial size=3D2>don't have time to re-type it right =
now, so I=20
            guess that particular thread</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>has=20
            gone to the great bit bucket in the sky for the =
moment...</FONT>=20
</P>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----</FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>From: Goldpaws=20
            &lt;gmanning@banet.net&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>To:=20
            daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net</FONT> <BR><FONT=20
            face=3DArial=20
            =
size=3D2>&lt;daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano@out4.ibm.net&gt;</FONT>=20
            <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Date: Friday, February 19, =
1999 8:35=20
            PM</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Subject: Re: =
Beginner=20
            classes</FONT> </P><BR>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;All of the E-Mails that I =

            receive&nbsp; from you are blank.</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>&gt;Does anyone else have this problem?</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
            face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;Goldpaws</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>&gt;</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>&gt;daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:</FONT> =
<BR><FONT=20
            face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt;----</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =

            size=3D2>&gt;For subscription changes, please mail to:=20
            glass-request@bungi.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;To=20
            send to the list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail =
to:=20
            glass@bungi.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>&gt;Archives=20
            available at <A href=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass"=20
            target=3D_blank>http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT> =
</P><BR>
            <P><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----</FONT> <BR><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
            size=3D2>For subscription changes, please mail to:=20
            glass-request@bungi.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>To send=20
            to the list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to:=20
            glass@bungi.com</FONT> <BR><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>Archives=20
            available at <A href=3D"http://www.bungi.com/glass"=20
            target=3D_blank>http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></FONT>=20
</P></UL></UL></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 15:58:54 1999
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:09:21 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:06:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.12626.0>
Precedence: bulk

I would call a few more times, ask for payment, then chalk it up to
experience... we're not talking a king's ransom here and I can easily ear=
n
$200 doing a day's worth of work.  (Something my husband frequently
suggests I try doing when I've spent a few hours on the computer!)

Cheerio,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:09:20 1999
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X-Path: bardstown.com!glassx
From: "Glass Expressions" <glassx@bardstown.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: looking for a racehorse and jockey pattern
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:41:42 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.14142.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE5E8A.9BDCF700
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've looked everyplace I can think of for a patter for racehorse and =
jockey could someone refeer me to a place I may find one or an etching =
of one.   I'll watch for a response.  Thanks to all of you which put all =
the great info on the page for us newbies!  Thanks again Ricky

------=_NextPart_000_0004_01BE5E8A.9BDCF700
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.3110.7"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>I've looked everyplace I can think =
of for a=20
patter for racehorse and jockey could someone refeer me to a place I may =
find=20
one or an etching of one.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'll watch for a response.&nbsp; =
Thanks to=20
all of you which put all the great info on the page for us =
newbies!&nbsp; Thanks=20
again Ricky</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:16:09 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: mobiles
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:55:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.125513.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
>I am curious as to what the best material to string mobiles together wit=
h
is.  I have been trying to use fishing line, and am pretty much fed up wi=
th
it.
I had been looking for a thin, very flexible wire like string, but just
haven't found the right thing.

Is there anything in particular that y'all use?  (like mah accent?!)

Also, do you have any suggestions on what to use for the balancing bars o=
f
the mobile.  I've used glass in some cases, but really want a thin metal
that I can twist each end into a tiny loop with.<

Love your accent, dear.  I just got back from the Buyer's Market
of American Craft show (also known in the wholesale business
as the Rosen show), and mobiles were very 'hot' there.  One guy
said he uses twisted steel wire for hanging his mobiles.  Some
folk use wooden mobile balancing bars, some use acrylic,
some use copper tubing.  Sounds to me like copper or brass
rods or tubing bent into the shapes you desire are what you're
after.  Good luck.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:25:28 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: cyberportal.net!dmj
From: "Dean Johnson" <dmj@cyberportal.net>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:22:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.13224.0>
References: <<1999Feb22.83131.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Dear K

Check out the Jen-Ken kilns sold by Marty Daily at Center DeVerre

http://www.cdvkiln.com/

Marty sells to glass artists at prices considerable below retail (an even
some wholesale) prices.

Elizabeth Johnson
dmj@cyberportal.net

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:34:48 1999
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:55:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.125515.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by INTERNET:gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
>How long do *you* guarantee your work?  What exactly does that guarantee=

cover?  <

I guarantee my work for 5 years from installation.  I really didn't
put into writing exactly what that guarantee covers, so I've got
a legal hole to fill in!  Thanks for pointing that out to me!

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:38:44 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Book for slumping & fusing
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:55:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.125537.0>
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Message text written by "ATF Distribution Center-K. See"
>Also, of all the books on fusing et al...what would you recommend?<

I love the "Creative Glass Techniques" by Eberle.
See my review of the book in the Fall 1997 issue of
"Common Ground:Glass" magazine (from IGGA).

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:44:24 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Back o' the Boat
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:45:48 +0000
Message-ID: <199902222238.RAA02757@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> Let's get our nomenclature squared away!

I'll say! I always walk to the back of the boat and toss my line off 
the left-hand side. Doesn't everyone? <Grin>

Glass line, of course.

A, who's not at the front of the class, boatwise
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 16:47:52 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:53:50 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.75350.0>
References: <<199902221347_MC2-6B58-72@compuserve.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:

> 
> > I would really like to see a good write-up about air filtering for
> > the studio... something that compares everything from an
> > open window and small fume traps, furnace/airconditioner filters,
> > to HEPA systems one can buy at Sears and full-blown industrial
> > strength systems.  What's available out there between $50 and
> > $5,000 and how well do they work? <
> 
> Well, that's no article, its a book--maybe two.
> 
> First you have to educate readers to the difference between:
> 
> gases,
> vapors,
> fumes,
> respirable dusts (under 10 microns in diameter),
> non-respirable dusts (over 10 microns in diameter), and
> mists (all sizes).
> 
> Without understanding these air contaminants, you don't have a clue which
> system or filter to use.  And in stained glass work ALL these types of
> contaminants are generated from various processes.
> 
> Then you need to explain the difference between types of ventilation:
> natural/passive ventilation, recirculating systems, dilution systems, and
> local exhaust systems.
> 
> > And how do you pronounce H-E-P-A?  ;-)<
> 
> Hep-ah will do it.  Stands for "high efficiency particulate air."  In
> fact, HEPA filters would give you a good example of the complexity of this
> subject.
> 
> Gases and vapors will go right through HEPAs.  For example, acid gases such
> as hydrochloric acid and other gases from fluxes are not captured. Vapors
> from solvent products wont be captured by HEPAs either.
> 
> HEPAs are "particulate" filters that will capture particles of 0.3 microns in
> diameter and larger.  Unfortunately there are now three types of HEPAs, 95%
> HEPAs, 99% HEPAs, and 100% HEPAs which actually capture 99.97% of particles
> 0.3 microns in diameter.
> 
> A full 100% HEPA  is always required when lead is involved.  However lead
> fume from soldering is not all over 0.3 microns in size and so a little will
> go through.  Pigments often have a mean diameter smaller than 0.3 (0.1
> microns is common) so capture often is not complete.
> 
> HEPAs are very good for most fine sanding and grinding dusts, most abrasive
> blasting dusts, most powdered materials (except pigments), and mists of over
> 0.3 microns provided the system as a liquid resistant prefilter.
> 
> That's only part of what you need to know about the HEPA.
> 
> Next, you need to know how to evaluate the system it is in:  how good is the
> hood's capture; the rate of the air flow through the filter; the power of
> the system as the filter begins to fill; and tons more.  A HEPA filter system
> can be useless if these other factors are not taken into account.
> 
> In other words if the expensive HEPA is in a cheap system, it still may be
> useless.
> 
> And the HEPA is the best filter.  Air conditioning and furnace filters are
> for crumbs and flies--useless for any of the toxic substances produced in
> stained glass.  And there are many other grades of filters.
> 
> The only way to handle this subject in a magazine is to cover one little part
> of the story at a time on a continuing basis.  This is why I write books.
> 
> Monona

-- 
x�>"3
�
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 17:26:31 1999
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X-Path: bigpond.com!ktsplash
From: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: "'Mosfunland@aol.com'" <Mosfunland@aol.com>, "Bungi List (E-mail)"
Subject: RE: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:58:09 +1000
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.20589.0>
Precedence: bulk

Maureen, the thought has definitely crossed my mind! What a shame a remote 
control "break" line can't be installed, something like a "this window will 
self-destruct", that could be activated by the creator if payment didn't 
occur!  I dunno, we can put a man on the moon.....
-----Original Message-----
From:	Mosfunland@aol.com [SMTP:Mosfunland@aol.com]
Sent:	Monday, February 22, 1999 3:20 AM
To:	ktsplash@bigpond.com
Subject:	Re: HELP recovering payment

well if he didn't pay, i'd drive by and toss a rock thru at least one of
them.......


I'd feel better.....LOL

Maureen

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 17:51:02 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:38:03 +0000
Message-ID: <199902230130.UAA05560@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> 3. Cut my losses.  For $200 it would be more effort to make a case in small
> claims court than the $200 was worth. 

Yup. That's why they do it. 

In one of my previous incarnations, while at university, I was a 
summons server for a minute or two (until I had a snubnose .38 
pointed at my head). Most of the services were in the richest parts 
of town. Think about it. <smile>

(After the .38 experience ... immediately afterward ... I looked for 
other means of supporting myself, thank you.)

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 18:06:59 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Bio #90  Candy Thurman
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 99 18:32:02 
Message-ID: <199902230132.SAA11621@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk


Well, Shirley, the foil turned green and crusty... I tried steel wool (lots of little shavings 
everywhere, including *in* my fingers) and the foil didn't take the solder well.. I ended 
up getting some liquid flux and putting it on and letting it set for about 10 min and 
scraping it off and then soldering.. which worked but still took 4-10 times longer than if I'd 
just soldered the thing.. The lamp was an original design 19" shade.. and I'm still proud 
of it! (it's somewhere in Oregon)..

Candy

On Sun, 21 Feb 1999 06:11:15 EST, SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:

>This is for Candy:  you mentioned in your bio (which was very entertaining
>btw) that you discovered why a foiled piece should not be left too long before
>soldering.  Please tell me why as I am beginning to solder my first project
>but due to flu etc. it has been sitting for about  3 weeks.  I have been
>questioning whether I should go over all the pieces with steel wool (1000
>grit) before soldering.  I'm a newbe (poor excuse). :-) Help. Thanks. Shirley
>G
>----

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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:38:41 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.133841.0>
References: <<1999Feb22.75350.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> > The only way to handle this subject in a magazine is to cover one little part
> > of the story at a time on a continuing basis.  This is why I write books.
> > 
> > Monona


Ok..here is a question from the simple minded.

How about just making a recommendation? ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 18:29:23 1999
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Got an idea
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:33:54 -0800
Message-ID: <199902230133.RAA09074@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Shirley...not Howard here, but I have a few thoughts anyway.

You need to add a harp to the lamp to support the lampshade...and you can
design whatever you want to go on the side panels.  

The main thing I am concerned about though is how much the base weighs?  If
it's wood the lamp would probably be very top heavy and tip over very easily.  

If you have a good solid wood base, you can probably countersink several
large holes into it without jeopardizing its integrity.  Get yourself a
little forge to melt lead and fill up the holes with lead plugs to provide a
weighted base.

Don't know about putting an intricate design on just one panel...if that
would affect balance and cause the lamp to tip over.  That is indeed a
Howard question.  Offhand though, a simpler, and more decorative solution
would be to have 2 galleon panels opposite each other and two plain panels
opposite each other.

And I think the thingies you describe are called marlinspikes.  (Unless
those are the thingies used for braiding wire rope...never been a
sailer...always a power boater).

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 18:34:37 1999
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X-Path: bigpond.com!ktsplash
From: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: "Bungi List (E-mail)" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:21:56 +1000
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.212156.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Bungians. I want to let you all know how helpful all of your input was. 
After receiving such valuable advice, I can guarantee that I'll be thinking 
far more about this side of things in the future, and acting far more 
professionally, not only for my own interests, but also, as so many 
Bungians pointed out, for the sake of other SG artists.
SO the update!
I used a combination of approaches here. I had, before I'd posted my 
original question, called the fellow a number of times, using the 
time-honoured approach that "you catch more flies with honey..." but after 
receiving some of the replies here, I decided to try again, this time with 
"more balls." (Thanks Carol!) I called him again, heard him telling his kid 
to tell me he was not home, got very cranky, and became determined not to 
be deterred again.
I called again later, and this time, when again he "wasn't home" I got him 
where it hurts - his wife! When I left her with a message, it turned out 
she was VERY interested to discover that her Christmas present hadn't been 
paid for.  I told her that there seemed to be some misunderstanding, and 
that should payment not arrive this week, I would be coming to pick up the 
unpaid-for panels.
PAYMENT ARRIVED TODAY!!!!
Again, I want to thank you all very much. Without exception, all of your 
responses were helpful.

I shall continue to hang around watching and learning, with your 
permission. Perhaps one day I shall be able to return the favour!
On a side note, I haven't seen any other Australians on this list? Are 
there any? Have I got the inside edge on other Australians in Stained Glass 
because I have discovered this little fountain of knowledge and reference 
called Bungi?  Tee Hee

Katie

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 18:50:31 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:49:14 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.134914.0>
References: <<1999Feb22.20589.0>>
Precedence: bulk

> Maureen, the thought has definitely crossed my mind! What a shame a remote 
> control "break" line can't be installed, something like a "this window will 
> self-destruct", that could be activated by the creator if payment didn't 
> occur!  I dunno, we can put a man on the moon.....


I would consider that if a person is dishonest, they are probably better
at *getting back*.  I'd stear clear of em.  What goes around comes
around.

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:03:41 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Mon Feb 22 18:37:03 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.16153.0>
Precedence: bulk

K See,

For incorporating fused/slumped pieces into your stained glass work, your
choice of the Evenheat GT 14-6 is a good one. You may also want to check the
pricing on the Paragon GF7B & the Jen-Ken  G-18 or GS-11-E (all at 120V)
which are similar yet a little different.

Concerning books, the classics are always a good start: "The Fused Glass
Handbook" by Gil Reynolds & "Kiln Firing Glass - Book One" by Boyce
Lundstrem; followed by "Creative Glass Techniques" by Bettina Eberle &
"Fusing Fun" by Carolyn Kyle & Chuck Berets. After gaining some experience,
I have re-read these books 2 to 3 times over.

However, my suggestion is to get a kiln at the price and voltage(120/240)
that you feel you can afford and start burning some glass. After 6 months of
failures & successes of fusing/slumping/sagging of Spectrum, Bullseye,
Urobosos,and every other scrap piece of glass you have on hand, you will
have a better idea of where you want to go.

BTW: Once you're comfortable with slumping glass, you may want to
investigate the Sun Sculpture books & molds for incorporating slumped glass
with your stained glass work.

~ Gary Kleeman

-----Original Message-----
From: ATF Distribution Center-K. See <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 2:13 PM
Subject: Kiln for slumping & fusing


>I have decided to bite the bullet & get a kiln.
>
>I plan on slumping glass & fusing designs to incorporate into my pieces.
>
>I don't want to limit myself by starting off too small (cause I know
>myself) so I'm thinking something like the Evenheat 14" floor kiln
>w/pyrometer. 120V
>
>Also, of all the books on fusing et al...what would you recommend?
>
>I need suggestions & recommendations
>
>TIA
>K See


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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:20:23 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:21:26 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.102126.0>
References: <<36D206A1.3500@ix.netcom.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Isent Dani's question onto Monona, so the response was to me and I in
turn sent it back to bungi.
She really is the one to ask.
75054.2542@compuserve.com

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York NY 10012-2586   212/777-0062
Suzanne wrote:
> 
> > > The only way to handle this subject in a magazine is to cover one little part
> > > of the story at a time on a continuing basis.  This is why I write books.
> > >
> > > Monona
> 
> Ok..here is a question from the simple minded.
> 
> How about just making a recommendation? ;o)
> 
> Tulsa Suzanne
> --
> "Winning isn't always finishing first.
> Sometimes winning is just finishing."
> Manuel Diotte

-- 
x�>"3
�
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:25:25 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Mad Dog address
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:54:38 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.105438.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I have been looking for their email address for 2 hours and am getting
the sinking feeling they are not on the web.
Could anyone give me their 800 #?
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:37:30 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Back o' the Boat
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:53:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.165336.0>
Precedence: bulk

Never having found my sea legs, I won't even begin to describe what *I to=
ss
off the side of the boat! <groan>

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:50:39 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:05:36 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.15536.0>
References: <<1999Feb23.212156.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hey, I think that deserves a "Yeeehaaaaw! 

What a crumb of a guy teaching his son that way.
Cracks me up about the wife.  Glad to hear you got 
your payment.  

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 19:54:28 1999
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X-Path: pacifier.com!ptap
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <ptap@pacifier.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG-Vic's Surgery
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:20:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.112017.0>
Organization: Stained Glass Artists/Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

Vic I believe you said your slated for surgery this tuesday, which would
be tomorrow. So if that is the day then I wish you a good day and speedy
recovery!!

Pam


--
*********************************

Pamela Burns-Tappan
Executive Director
The Stained Glass Artists
http://fly.to/The_Stained_Glass_Artists

Moswood Mountain Limited
http://come.to/moswood_mountain_limited
http://start.at/MML_Web_Design1


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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 20:13:53 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: stained glass mart
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:22:07 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.11227.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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I found this site and thought I would share.
http://www.glassmart.com/links.html
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 20:23:31 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Glass Instructors
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:52:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.17524.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Dani,

Fact is that I am not an IGGA member.  I dropped by the web site
yesterday to poke around some and will probably join soon though.  

I have always felt that the idea of setting standards is a good one but
have also wondered how you go about getting the fact that there are set
standards and approved teachers in front of the people who need to know
about it.  (The ones who run the adult ed programs as well as the
prospective students.)

If they are unaware of the program they will blissfully continue to hire
incompetent instructors.  

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com


On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 16:01:24 -0500 Dani Greer
<GreerStudios@compuserve.com> writes:
>Gary-
>
>Maybe you could be part of the IGGA advisory committee to help
>write some teacher certification standards.  Certainly, it makes
>sense that real teachers be part of the standardizing crew.  Any
>other teachers out there that would be interested in some organized
>brainstorming?  And to do some serious research as to how other
>certification programs got started?
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

___________________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 20:37:08 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NON GLASSRe: Deer Son
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:02:24 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.12224.0>
References: <<36D224B9.6F0B@netbridge.net>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Sorry, just couldn't resist sharing this.
> > >    "Dear Son: I'm not saying that you 'do' sleep with Julie,
> > > and I'm not saying that you 'do not' sleep with Julie.  But the
> > > fact remains that if she was sleeping in her own bed, she
> > > would have found the gravy ladle by now. Love, Mom"
> > >
> > >  Lesson of the day... Don't Lie To Your Mother.
> And this one is from a friend of Grandma and Grandpa's
> Deer Son
> I am writeing this slow cause i know you can't read very fast.
> We don't live where we did when you left.  Dad read in the paper where
> most accidents happen within 20 miles of home, so we moved.
> i want be able to send you the address, As the last Alabama family that
> lived here took the numbers so they wouldn't have to change there
> address.
> This place has a washing machine.  The first day i put 4 shirts in it,
> pulled the chain and haven't seen them since.
> it only rained twice this week.  three days the first time and 4 days
> the second time.
> The coat you wanted me to send you.  your Aunt Sue said it would be a
> little to heavy to send in the mail with them heavy buttons, so we cut
> them off and put them in the pockets.
> We got a bill from the funeral home.  said if we didn't make the last
> payment on Grandma's funeral bill, up she comes.
> About your father.......he has a new job. He has over 500 men up under
> him.  He is cuttin the grass at the cematary.
> About your sister......She had a baby this morning.  I haven't found out
> if its a boy or a girl.  so i don't know if your an anunt or uncle.
> your Uncle John fell in the whiskey vat.  Some men tired to pull him
> out.  but he fought them off playfully, so he drowned.  We cremated him,
> he burned 3 days.
> three of your friends went off the bridge in a pickup.  One was driveing
> the other two were in the back.  The driver got out, he rolled down the
> window and swam away.  the other two drowned, they couldn't get the
> tailgate down.
> Not much more news this time, nothin much has really happend
> Love Mom
> p.s. i was going to send you money, but the envelope was already sealed
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Mad Dog address
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:12:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.121253.0>
Precedence: bulk

Mad Dog Stained Glass Supplies, 7122 Gerald Ave., Van Nuys, CA. 91406,
800 423-3698, FAX 818 782-3213.

Wholesale only, great service, catalog items kept in stock, fast
shipping, etc..

If you live within 1000 miles of Mad Dog it might just pay you to have
an account. First order $250.00, thereafter $50.00. Tops on my list.
Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Mon Feb 22 21:04:26 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Mad Dog address
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:35:35 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.123535.0>
References: <<001f01be5ee2$c9e1f080$dd839cd1@default>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Thanks Bob, I feel the same way about them.
Shirley B

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> Mad Dog Stained Glass Supplies, 7122 Gerald Ave., Van Nuys, CA. 91406,
> 800 423-3698, FAX 818 782-3213.
> 
> Wholesale only, great service, catalog items kept in stock, fast
> shipping, etc..
> 
> If you live within 1000 miles of Mad Dog it might just pay you to have
> an account. First order $250.00, thereafter $50.00. Tops on my list.
> Bob
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Think glass, have class.

-- 
x�>"3
�
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 02:23:06 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mad Dog address
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:19:46 +0000
Message-ID: <199902231012.FAA08973@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Precedence: bulk


> I have been looking for their email address for 2 hours and am getting
> the sinking feeling they are not on the web.
> Could anyone give me their 800 #?

Just a reminder, Shirley, that when it comes to sources, the Guild's 
Sources Guide at http://igga.org/guide.htm is updated several times a 
week:

Mad Dog Stained Glass, 7122 Gerald Avenue, Van Nuys CA 91406. Phone:
(818) 782-1514. (800) 423-3698. Fax: (818) 782-3213. 

     Distributor, full line wholesale. Direct importer of bevel
     clusters. Known for fast and accurate shipping of a wide variety
     of competitively priced tools and supplies. Everything needed to
     maintain the well-equipped studio or retail store.

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 05:58:10 1999
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X-Path: email.msn.com!eastgatexx
From: "Alan Terry" <eastgatexx@email.msn.com>
To: "Glass@Bungi.com" <Glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:23:14 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb22.212314.0>
Precedence: bulk

After a week of invisibly enjoying all the Bungi threads -- I've had to
respond to this one.

Congratulations!  I also loved the part about the kid and the wife.  I'm a
sucker for a happy ending.

(The fact that I live and work in the L.A. film industry might have
something to do with that.)

Good work on this (and all) threads on the bungi.com!

Alan Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!


>Hey, I think that deserves a "Yeeehaaaaw!
>
>What a crumb of a guy teaching his son that way.
>Cracks me up about the wife.  Glad to hear you got
>your payment.
>
>T Suz
>--
>"Winning isn't always finishing first.
>Sometimes winning is just finishing."
>Manuel Diotte
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 06:28:24 1999
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X-Path: tripos.com!rammann
From: Rachel Ammann <rammann@tripos.com>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: slumping & fusing books
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:02:05 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.225.0>
References: <<1999Feb22.83131.0>>
Precedence: bulk

The best all around book for beginners is by Gil Reynolds - the Fusing
Handbook. You can get it from Gil's company : Fusion headquarters
http://www.teleport.com/~glaswiz.  He carries other books too.

Boyce Lundstrom's books (there are 3) are better for people who have
already gotten started. Try amazon.com to buy the books.  Gil may also
sell them.

Henry Halem's book (Glass Notes) is technical but great if you're
advanced. http://www.glassnotes.com,

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 07:01:20 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: NG Know Your Customer Act.
Date: Tue Feb 23 06:39:06 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.4176.0>
Precedence: bulk

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5F38.5AD7ACA6
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

In the spirit of Bob (Shy Guy) the Dinosaur and other paranoid people:
The FDIC Has proposed that your bank report "unusual" transactions to the
Feds. You know, like, if you get a dividend check, or a birthday present, or
anything else that doesn't happen on a monthly basis. They consider these
"criminal activities".
The comment period continues until March 8th. You may wish to
view the act itself and let them know what you think...
http://www.fdic.gov/lawsregs/fedr/98knocus.txt
<http://www.fdic.gov/lawsregs/fedr/98knocus.txt> 
http://www.fdic.gov/banknews/know.html
<http://www.fdic.gov/banknews/know.html> 

If you read the letter at the above site you will notice the standards set
forth are vague. Is a large amount $100 or $1000.
Most importantly the drug dealers/money launderers can set up regular month
deposits and avoid notice under this ruling.   

What this may mean to hobbyist/non-professionals is that every time you
accept a check the bank will tell the Feds. The same rule seems to apply to
commercial accounts. I know I'd have a difficult time explaining every check
that hit my account. Nothing illegal just who remembers what a check was for
six months after the fact. It would also seem that this may be used as
justification for an investigation when no other cause exists.

Me paranoid? Maybe. But having seen and heard first hand accounts of
governments in action it is justifiable.

I expect that Bob would have said this is just the government poking its
nose where it does not belong.  

Check it out for yourself and feel free to E-mail the FDIC an opinion.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5F38.5AD7ACA6
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META NAME=3D"Generator" CONTENT=3D"MS Exchange Server version =
5.5.2448.0">
<TITLE>NG Know Your Customer Act.</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">In the spirit of Bob (Shy Guy) the =
Dinosaur and other paranoid people:</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The FDIC Has proposed that your bank =
report "unusual" transactions to the Feds. You know, like, if you get a =
dividend check, or a birthday present, or anything else that doesn't =
happen on a monthly basis. They consider these "criminal =
activities".</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">The comment period continues until =
March 8</FONT><SUP><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">th</FONT></SUP><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">. You may wish to</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">view the act itself and let them know =
what you think...</FONT>
<BR><A HREF=3D"http://www.fdic.gov/lawsregs/fedr/98knocus.txt"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.fdic.gov/lawsregs/fedr/98knocus.txt</FONT></U>=
</A>
<BR><A HREF=3D"http://www.fdic.gov/banknews/know.html"><U><FONT =
COLOR=3D"#0000FF" SIZE=3D2 =
FACE=3D"Arial">http://www.fdic.gov/banknews/know.html</FONT></U></A>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">If you read the letter at the above =
site you will notice the standards set forth are vague. Is a large =
amount $100 or $1000.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Most importantly the drug =
dealers/money launderers can set up regular month deposits and avoid =
notice under this ruling.&nbsp;&nbsp; </FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">What this may mean to =
hobbyist/non-professionals is that every time you accept a check the =
bank will tell the Feds. The same rule seems to apply to commercial =
accounts. I know I'd have a difficult time explaining every check that =
hit my account. Nothing illegal just who remembers what a check was for =
six months after the fact. It would also seem that this may be used as =
justification for an investigation when no other cause =
exists.</FONT></P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Me paranoid? Maybe. But having seen =
and heard first hand accounts of governments in action it is =
justifiable.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">I expect that Bob would have said this =
is just the government poking its nose where it does not belong.&nbsp; =
</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Check it out for yourself and feel =
free to E-mail the FDIC an opinion.</FONT>
</P>

<P><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vic M.</FONT>
<BR><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
</HTML>
------_=_NextPart_001_01BE5F38.5AD7ACA6--
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 08:06:53 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: RE: Hot Glass Repair help
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:31:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.5315.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by "Dean Johnson"
>The broken ends should be heated by a lampworker in a torch and melted
together.   Since no new glass would be added, there would be no
compatibility problem.  If the lampworker is skilful, he/she should be ab=
le
to sculpt and smooth the joint so that it is invisible, and the bonded ar=
ea
will be as strong as the original unbroken glass.<

I hadn't thought about trying a lampworker for fixing
these.  I do have a local (sort of) lampworker and
beadmaker who might be able to help.  I've called
her & left a message.  We will discuss it and then
I'll see if she can do it, or if I'm stuck going the UV
glue route.  BTW, purchased a black light last night
at Spencers Gifts at the mall.  They don't take
company checks.  Blech.  Hate that stuff.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 08:29:08 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!charles_spitzer
From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:40:53
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990223084053.00ac7200@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
References: <<"1999Feb21.0531.0*"@MHS>>
Precedence: bulk

At 07:05 PM 2/20/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Jerri,
>I have had a bottle of copper patina for over 10 years now and it is still
>fine.  Have you been contaminating your patina?  If you use the patina
>directly from the bottle, you will surely contaminate the entire contents in
>no time at all.  I always pour a small amount into a tiny (plastic) container
>and use it from there.  Any patina that is left over is disposed of and NOT
>poured back into the original patina container.  Hope this helps.
>Lenore
>PS  I really like the idea of mixing your own patina from crystals!!  Let me
>know how you like it.

it is a lot cheaper than buying patina in a shop.  you're buying mostly
water if you buy premixed patina.

about 8 years ago, i bought 500 grams of copper sulfate crystals for about
$10. you can get it at a chemical supply house. that's probably enough to
make 5 gallons of patina, or roughly a lifetime supply for me.

regards,
charlie
phx, az


--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 08:40:41 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: 75054.2542@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:01:52 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.16152.0>
Precedence: bulk


In a message dated 2/22/99 10:21:04 PM, balloch@netbridge.net wrote:

>I sent Dani's question onto Monona, so the response was to me and I in
>turn sent it back to bungi.
>She really is the one to ask.
>75054.2542@compuserve.com
>
>> > > The only way to handle this subject in a magazine is to cover one
little part
>> > > of the story at a time on a continuing basis.  This is why I write
books.
>> > >
>> > > Monona

A coupla questions:

1.	What's in those respirator canisters these days? Used to be activated
	charcoal/carbon, I think.

2.	How does a HEPA filter system compare with an electrostatic system in
	getting rid of particulates, vapor droplets, etc.?


	---------Sparks	(a chemist in a *very* former life that's now been
						mostly relegated to the "repressed memories"
						section of my brain)
----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 09:39:49 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!charles_spitzer
From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: latest Glass Craftsman articles
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:45:54
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990223094554.00b518b0@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
References: <<3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>>
Precedence: bulk

well, note that i said frame, not reinforced. he did this to make his
frame. it was for freestanding panels. he also stated that he has dropped
his panels on this edge, and the edge crumpled but no glass broke. seems a
good idea to me.

also note: how is this different from your wire idea below? both ways makes
a frame to hang the panel from. i also think he doesn't do this for small
panels, just larger ones, and it takes the place of rebar or restrip
internal to the lines. since the steel he adds to the edge won't fold, then
you don't need to have other reinforcement especially if it has fold lines
in the pattern.

you might want to read the article first before commenting upon it.

regards,
charlie

At 02:50 PM 2/20/99 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm sure I will be told that something is wrong with me, but I can't see
>the necessity of putting steel inside two cames on the perimeter of a
>panel.
>        I'm getting really boring on this subject probably, but...
>1.      there is no additional strength added across the panel by
>perimeter reinforcing
>2.      There are quicker ways of "reinforcing" so a panel can be hung.
>One of them is to put twisted brass wire (picture hanging wire for
>example) around the outside of the perimeter came next to the heart.
>Then fold the outer leaves of the came together, so trapping the brass
>wire.  Solder the ends of the wire together, and if you have allowed the
>wire to come out at the top of the panel, you have a wire to hang at one
>or two points.  This supports the panel as it goes *completely around*
>the panel without breaks.
>        This would be for a big panel.  A smaller panel of 1-2 square
>feet (not feet square), can be supported by two copper ties about 2
>inches long soldered to the side of the heart of the perimeter lead.
>3.      If the panel needs reinforcing, it needs it across the panel.
>The reinforcing should follow major "fold" lines across the panel,
>whether in lead came or in copper foil. If your panel is "floppy" it
>will remain so whether you put zinc, or steel encased in lead came on
>the perimeter.  Perimeter reinforcing does not strengthen the panel
>internally, it just makes you feel better, because the edges are rigid.
>Well, that isn't going to help much if the panel is not properly
>supported across its width or height.
>
>Now, I have to admit that I haven't seen the article, so I am not
>criticising the author or what was written, Just criticising the
>concept.  Because I think it is *Wrong*  This may be a one person
>crusade, but I haven't been discouraged from continuing it so far.
>
>Steve in Scotland
>So, I'm far enough away!
>
>
>In message <3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>,
>Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com> writes
>>Nice pictures of some of Oddy's work, along with a good article on framing
>>using lead came + steel rod.
>>
>>regards,
>>charlie
>>phx, az
>>--
>>Charles Spitzer
>>Stratus Computer, Inc
>>Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent
>>
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>-- 
>Steve Richard
>Verrier Art Glass Ltd
>s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
>
>
--
Charles Spitzer
Stratus Computer, Inc
Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 10:05:44 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Tue Feb 23 09:27:38 1999
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.7538.0>
Precedence: bulk

how many bio's does this mean we get, now?  i have lost count
debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616



-----Original Message-----
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
To: 75054.2542@compuserve.com <75054.2542@compuserve.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: fume traps


>
>In a message dated 2/22/99 10:21:04 PM, balloch@netbridge.net wrote:
>
>>I sent Dani's question onto Monona, so the response was to me and I in
>>turn sent it back to bungi.
>>She really is the one to ask.
>>75054.2542@compuserve.com
>>
>>> > > The only way to handle this subject in a magazine is to cover one
>little part
>>> > > of the story at a time on a continuing basis.  This is why I write
>books.
>>> > >
>>> > > Monona
>
>A coupla questions:
>
>1. What's in those respirator canisters these days? Used to be activated
> charcoal/carbon, I think.
>
>2. How does a HEPA filter system compare with an electrostatic system in
> getting rid of particulates, vapor droplets, etc.?
>
>
> ---------Sparks (a chemist in a *very* former life that's now been
> mostly relegated to the "repressed memories"
> section of my brain)
>----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 11:13:40 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:09:24 -0800
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Adriana says exactly the same thing about me.  She tells me if I actually
spent more time doing the work, rather than sitting on the computer talking
about it or designing ideas I will never get around to making, I might
actually make a living doing this stuff.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 5:04 PM
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment


>I would call a few more times, ask for payment, then chalk it up to
>experience... we're not talking a king's ransom here and I can easily ear=
>n
>$200 doing a day's worth of work.  (Something my husband frequently
>suggests I try doing when I've spent a few hours on the computer!)
>
>Cheerio,
>
>Dani Greer
>----
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 12:12:41 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:40:13 -0800
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Some astute person actually noticed I am now using a different company name
than on my IGGA membership.  Yes - I changed the name.  I would be curious
what people think about how important a company name is.

I do not even use the company name most of the time.  I tend to use my own
name.  But when I did use the old comapny name it seemed to cause problems.

The old name was "The Clearing Arts" (or "The Clearing Glass Studio" when I
wanted to emphasize just the glass side of my work).  In either case, no one
seemed to be able to remember it.  Several people seemed to feel the name
had an unprofessional feel to it.

The old name came from the beautiful clearing in the forest where my studio
and home are located.  I also liked the images of clearing sky, clearing
your mind, etc.  However, many people said they first thought of a "clearing
house" where junk nobody wanted was sold for cheap prices.

The new name is "Holtenwood Architectural Detailing".  Or actually just
"Holtenwood" on the business cards with "Architectural Detailing" in smaller
letters just below.

The name Holtenwood is the same starting name as our art gallery "Holtenwood
Gallery".  The art gallery has had that name since we moved it to Texada
Island two years ago and the name seems to work very well.  People remember
it and seem to get a good feeling from it.

At first I thought it would not work since the name really does not mean
anything.  People would not have anything to tie it to so they would not
remember it.  But the opposite seems to be true - since it is not a word
they have heard before they remember it.  Also since it is not a real word
people do not seem to tie bad images to it.

The name Holtenwood comes from a combination of my own and my wife's last
names.  My wife's maiden name is "van Holten" and mine is "Atwood",
therefore "Holtenwood".  Including Adriana in the name seems appropriate
since she is often critical in designing the overall look of an
installation.  I am good at the individual pieces and the detail level, but
I often overlook how everything will work together when installed.

(Weird and kind of cool coincidence: In Dutch "holten" means wood as in a
small forest.  Therefore "van Holten" means "from the wood".  "Atwood" of
course means "at the wood".  So Adriana and I were born with the same last
names - just two different languages.  And "Holtenwood" comes down to
meaning "wood wood".)

The other half of the name "Architectural Detailing" comes because I want to
emphasize more than just the glass work.  My first love and where I started
as a craftsman was working in wood.  I also do some metal work (custom door
and cabinet handles), and I have even done tile work in one case to tie a
tiled bath into a stained glass and cabinet installation.  Since I seem to
use a company name mostly when working with architects or builders, I felt
this was a good side to emphasize.

I also wanted to indicate I did not do entire buildings or actual building
design, just the finishing touches.  However, I did not want to use
"finishing" as in "architectural finishing" since this seemed to imply just
finish cabinet work or finish carpentry.  And in reality I could not come up
with any other term which was nebulous enough to fit most of what I do but
still sounded like something real.

Note: For stand alone "art" pieces and/or spec pieces I generally use just
my own name, Timothy Atwood, since these are mostly sold through our art
gallery and I feel an individuals name is best here.

So what do people think?  Does a name make a difference?  When do you use a
company name and when do you use your own?  What about the particulars of my
new comapny name?  Was I stupid to change it?  Is the new one goofy or does
it work?

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 13:15:56 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: NG Know Your Customer Act.
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:55:50 -0800
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Could you repost this in text only.
I tried to contact you off group, but kept getting failed mail.
Thanks.
Shirley B

daver!ctronsoft.com!vmodiano wrote:

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 13:39:56 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:34:57 +0000
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> So what do people think?  Does a name make a difference?  When do you use a
> company name and when do you use your own?  What about the particulars of my
> new comapny name?  Was I stupid to change it?  Is the new one goofy or does
> it work?

Since I made the change to Tim's studio's name a few minutes ago, I'm 
glad of the opportunity to say how I reacted to it. I thought it had 
a very nice ring to it, evoking "Jane Eyre" as it did for me and the 
large manse one sees in the original Wellsian version.

I thought it sounded very professional, although I can relate to the 
reference to the clearing in the woods, Tim mentions. At the same 
time, since it was confusing (or could be confused with) in the sense 
that some associated it with bargain basement references, I think the 
new name is much better.

Personally, I've always wondered that some studios take such a flip 
attitude toward their company's name, sometimes even putting a 
salacious spin on it. No offense to any who operate as "A Nice Piece 
of Glass," but I wonder about names like that and what potential 
clients might think.

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 14:43:22 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: atwoods@aisl.bc.ca
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Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:16:37 EST
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A name says a lot. Although my registered business name is Sanctuary Glass, I
usually go my actual name, as you said you do. And different people will have
different interpretations of your work/business, etc. by your name without
seeing what you actually do or produce - could be good or bad, I guess. I'm a
small scale craftsperson who doesn't do churches, and before I regestered the
name I did have a reservation about it: I thought that people may be mislead
by the Sanctuary part (and think I was only large-scale when I'm actually the
opposite)...but working in glass is my sanctuary, my escape, my safe and
peaceful time...hence my business name. I've never had anyone comment
negatively about it - customers have only commented that they liked the name.
I say do what feels good and right for you!

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 14:53:08 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
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Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:38 -0800
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Albert,
Sounds like another bumper sticker to me.

 "A Nice Piece of Glass,"
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 15:24:34 1999
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From: Nancy B Gildersleeve <nbg3755@juno.com>
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Fw: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:05:55 -0800
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Charles--what else is in the mix for copper patina besides copper sulfate
and water?  Thanks
in advance for the recipe.

Nancy G

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 15:47:35 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:42:39 -0800
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I think it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to pick one name and stick to it.  It's a
matter of product recognition...a marketing thing.  Could you imagine trying
to buy pepsi one week, liking it and then going back for more the next week
only to find that it's now called frogsi.  Get used to that name, go back to
buy more 6 months later, and find out it's been changed to dogsie.  Would
you be confused?  Why would someone wanting your glasswork be any less confused?
Yes, I know the hypothetical names stink, but I'm not feeling particularly
creative at the moment.

Now with art glass we are in a business where people may only need our
services once every 5 years or so.  What if they met you as pepsi, and look
for you 5 years later...how will they know that frogsie is the same art
glass company, especially when they have a card that says PEpsi.  Let's say
you've moved in that 5 year period (most people do move on average every 5
years)...since your card isn't valid and they go to the yellow pages to find
a glass artist, how will they know that frogsie (who's listed) is
you...pepsi (who isn't)?  Answer...they won't know, and you'll probably lose
a sale.

Since some people seem to prefer artist name recognition, I make sure both
company name and personal name appear on everything.  Personally, I would
prefer to be known by my studio name since I have plans for growing my business.

For you, I think changing from a name that no one can remember or that had
negative connotations was a good plan.  I also like that Holtenwood appears
in both your businesses' names...gives continuity...shows that one is
related to (a division of) the other, or so folk might tend to think.  Gives
an impression of substance and size.  Very subtle psychology, but then
that's what marketing is.

I think that you might have to do some education around what architectural
detailing is.  When I first saw that name I thought you were a draftsman
providing plans.  I do understand that you're looking for a catchall sort of
name since what you do is quite ecclectic.  Perhaps you can educate and
prevent misunderstandings on your card, brochure and other promotional
literature by listing the types of things you do in small
letters...woodworking, stained glass, tilework.

I can empathize around how challenging this is to choose a name that's all
encompassing and has some meaning to it.  The "and Creative" in my name
refers to workshop facilitation (creativity, colour energies, etc.), one on
one creativity coaching, designing and preparing "the look" of manuscripts
for publication, a little interior design work, etc.  I add etc because who
knows what'll be along next.  People seem to relate well to this concept no
matter in what capacity they are relating to me.

It's a nice bonus that the Holtenwood "made up word" had some symbolism
appropriate to your living place and the woodwork you do.

C.





Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 16:08:24 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
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Subject: Re: NON GLASSRe: Deer Son
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Thanks Shirley:  We all need a little humor in our life.  

Peggy

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 16:29:53 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
Subject: Re: latest Glass Craftsman articles
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:39:01 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.22391.0>
References: <<3.0.6.32.19990223094554.00b518b0@atlas2.az.stratus.com>>
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Thanks for your reply Charlie.
        comments interspersed.
In message <3.0.6.32.19990223094554.00b518b0@atlas2.az.stratus.com>,
Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com> writes
>well, note that i said frame, not reinforced. he did this to make his
>frame. it was for freestanding panels. he also stated that he has dropped
>his panels on this edge, and the edge crumpled but no glass broke. seems a
>good idea to me.
What he is doing seems to work for strengthening the edges and making
them impact resistant.  If by free standing, you mean supported only at
the bottom, yes there has to be a strong edge.  Although I would think
there needs to be some additional support even with steel along the
edges, if for no other reason than to keep it from being tipped over.
>
>also note: how is this different from your wire idea below? both ways makes
>a frame to hang the panel from. i also think he doesn't do this for small
>panels, just larger ones, and it takes the place of rebar or restrip
>internal to the lines. since the steel he adds to the edge won't fold, then
>you don't need to have other reinforcement especially if it has fold lines
>in the pattern.
        My suggestion would not provide for as strong a perimeter as his
method, but it is strong enough to support the weight of a large panel,
if it is to be hung in front of an opening.  No way could it support its
own weight standing vertically.  It depends entirely on being hung.  The
difference between placing steels along the outer edges and wire, is
that wire is quicker.
        If it is a large panel, it may still need reinforcement across
its width or height, depending on whether it is portrait or landscape in
format.
>
>you might want to read the article first before commenting upon it.
>
        I have no access to the periodical concerned (it being a USA
publication, I believe).  So a good summary would help all us who can't
get a copy of the article.  If you are willing, I would be happy to
receive....

Steve
-----
>regards,
>charlie
>
>At 02:50 PM 2/20/99 +0000, you wrote:
>>I'm sure I will be told that something is wrong with me, but I can't see
>>the necessity of putting steel inside two cames on the perimeter of a
>>panel.
>>        I'm getting really boring on this subject probably, but...
>>1.      there is no additional strength added across the panel by
>>perimeter reinforcing
>>2.      There are quicker ways of "reinforcing" so a panel can be hung.
>>One of them is to put twisted brass wire (picture hanging wire for
>>example) around the outside of the perimeter came next to the heart.
>>Then fold the outer leaves of the came together, so trapping the brass
>>wire.  Solder the ends of the wire together, and if you have allowed the
>>wire to come out at the top of the panel, you have a wire to hang at one
>>or two points.  This supports the panel as it goes *completely around*
>>the panel without breaks.
>>        This would be for a big panel.  A smaller panel of 1-2 square
>>feet (not feet square), can be supported by two copper ties about 2
>>inches long soldered to the side of the heart of the perimeter lead.
>>3.      If the panel needs reinforcing, it needs it across the panel.
>>The reinforcing should follow major "fold" lines across the panel,
>>whether in lead came or in copper foil. If your panel is "floppy" it
>>will remain so whether you put zinc, or steel encased in lead came on
>>the perimeter.  Perimeter reinforcing does not strengthen the panel
>>internally, it just makes you feel better, because the edges are rigid.
>>Well, that isn't going to help much if the panel is not properly
>>supported across its width or height.
>>
>>Now, I have to admit that I haven't seen the article, so I am not
>>criticising the author or what was written, Just criticising the
>>concept.  Because I think it is *Wrong*  This may be a one person
>>crusade, but I haven't been discouraged from continuing it so far.
>>
>>Steve in Scotland
>>So, I'm far enough away!
>>
>>
>>In message <3.0.6.32.19990217101721.009f0750@atlas2.az.stratus.com>,
>>Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com> writes
>>>Nice pictures of some of Oddy's work, along with a good article on framing
>>>using lead came + steel rod.
>>>
>>>regards,
>>>charlie
>>>phx, az
>>>--
>>>Charles Spitzer
>>>Stratus Computer, Inc
>>>Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent
>>>
>>>----
>>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>>-- 
>>Steve Richard
>>Verrier Art Glass Ltd
>>s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
>>
>>
>--
>Charles Spitzer
>Stratus Computer, Inc
>Speaking from Stratus, not for Stratus, Ascend, or Lucent
>
>----
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 16:42:34 1999
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From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: BOBDU@prodigy.net
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In a message dated 2/22/99 1:05:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, BOBDU@prodigy.net
writes:

<< Just knew this Navy stuff would come in handy someday. Bob >>

OK then, you passed the level one test.

What is a petard? As in hoisted on his own?
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 16:46:59 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:03:58 -0500
Message-ID: <199902232259.RAA03413@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

2/23/99 2:40 PM Tim Atwood atwoods@aisl.bc.ca

>So what do people think?  Does a name make a difference?  When do you use a
>company name and when do you use your own?  What about the particulars of my
>new comapny name?  Was I stupid to change it?  Is the new one goofy or does
>it work?

Tim, I think you answered your own question there. Apparently it's 
working just fine. I like all the references to "wood." Already people 
are remembering the Holtenwood as opposed to the "Clearing" name.

Some people put a great deal of stock in the vibration of names - i.e. 
Dionne Warwick changed the spelling of her name for better success. I 
believe it worked for her. 

I myself like using just my own name, now. It's Albright, which really 
works with glass! It makes things a lot easier for checking accounts, 
etc. 

Suzanne Albright
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 16:58:12 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Albert Lewis <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:09:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.11933.0>
References: <<199902232027.PAA16364@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
Precedence: bulk

> Since I made the change to Tim's studio's name a few minutes ago, I'm 
> glad of the opportunity to say how I reacted to it. I thought it had 
> a very nice ring to it, evoking "Jane Eyre" as it did for me and the 
> large manse one sees in the original Wellsian version.
> 


I had a very similar feeling about the new name...I think it has a very
romantic feel to it.  Heathcliff, and Wuthering Heights came to my mind.
Then I read on about the origin of the name...too cool!  

Sounds like it was meant to be.

T Suz
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 17:13:37 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!JJKIRBY
From: JJKIRBY@aol.com
To: dodgestudio@juno.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Glass Instructors
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:10:24 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.231024.0>
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 2/22/99 8:24:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
dodgestudio@juno.com writes:

<< If they are unaware of the program they will blissfully continue to hire
 incompetent instructors.  
 
 Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
  >>

I would see it as a two phased approach:

The IGGA could publish standards and distribute them freely to all educational
enterprises - via web, e-mail and snail mail on request.

A certification program could derive from those standards.  This may be a fee
based program, could entail a workshop, testing and an observation.  I
suppose, given the 
global nature of IGGA, a certification program could be "sefl-certifying"
which tends to
be more problematical.
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 17:29:35 1999
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X-Path: bigpond.com!ktsplash
From: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: 'Linda Letscher' <andor@fair.net>, "Bungi List (E-mail)"
Subject: Australia?... was recovering payment UPDATE
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:16:59 +1000
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.201659.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi, Linda!
I just checked my atlas - I'm as far from your friend as I could be while 
still on the same continent! She's down near Perth, yes? I am in Sunny 
Queensland, on the Sunshine Coast. (Surf very good yesterday due to cyclone 
Frank - 4 metre swell!) oh but I digress.
I checked the net for places she could try, if she is online she could try 
http://www.realms.com.au/craft/supplies/llsg/llsupwa.htm
for the studios in Western Australia, one of them would surely be able to 
help her with classes. In case she's not online, I've attached the html 
file from that address, perhaps you could fax it to her? or I would be 
happy to do same, save you on that international phone fee!
Let me know.

Katie

-----Original Message-----
From:	Linda Letscher [SMTP:andor@fair.net]
Sent:	Tuesday, February 23, 1999 1:28 PM
To:	ktsplash
Subject:	Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!

http://www.realms.com.au/craft/supplies/llsg/llsupwa.htm

I am really glad that by chance you got the wife on the phone.  How very
cool.  Glad you got your money, and I think this thread really helped a lot
of us.

Where abouts in Australia are you?  I have a friend in Rockingham, Western
Australia that is interested in starting to do glass.

Linda Jo

-----Original Message-----
From: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
To: Bungi List (E-mail) <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 9:39 PM
Subject: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!


>Hi Bungians. I want to let you all know how helpful all of your input was.
>After receiving such valuable advice, I can guarantee that I'll be 
thinking
>far more about this side of things in the future, and acting far more
>professionally, not only for my own interests, but also, as so many
>Bungians pointed out, for the sake of other SG artists.
>SO the update!
>I used a combination of approaches here. I had, before I'd posted my
>original question, called the fellow a number of times, using the
>time-honoured approach that "you catch more flies with honey..." but after
>receiving some of the replies here, I decided to try again, this time with
>"more balls." (Thanks Carol!) I called him again, heard him telling his 
kid
>to tell me he was not home, got very cranky, and became determined not to
>be deterred again.
>I called again later, and this time, when again he "wasn't home" I got him
>where it hurts - his wife! When I left her with a message, it turned out
>she was VERY interested to discover that her Christmas present hadn't been
>paid for.  I told her that there seemed to be some misunderstanding, and
>that should payment not arrive this week, I would be coming to pick up the
>unpaid-for panels.
>PAYMENT ARRIVED TODAY!!!!
>Again, I want to thank you all very much. Without exception, all of your
>responses were helpful.
>
>I shall continue to hang around watching and learning, with your
>permission. Perhaps one day I shall be able to return the favour!
>On a side note, I haven't seen any other Australians on this list? Are
>there any? Have I got the inside edge on other Australians in Stained 
Glass
>because I have discovered this little fountain of knowledge and reference
>called Bungi?  Tee Hee
>
>Katie
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>



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M(")2140B/CQ"/B!!3$)!3ED@5T$@+BXV,S,P/"]"/CPO1D].5#X\0E(^#0T*
M"2 \0CX@0VAR:7,@4VAI;FX@1&5S:6=N($=L87-S(#PO0CX@/$9/3E0@0T],
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M#0H@(" @(" \5$0^#0T*"3Q0($%,24=./4-%3E1%4CX-#0H)/$9/3E0@0T],
M3U(](")2140B/CQ"/B!!3$)!3ED@5T$@+BXV,S,P/"]"/CPO1D].5#X\0E(^
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M,#DV*2 R,B R-S@V(#PO1D].5#X-#0H@(" @(" \+U1$/@T-"B @(" \+U12
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M04-)3D<]("(Q,"(@0T5,3%!!1$1)3D<@/2(R(CX-#0H@(" @/%12/@T-"B @
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M(E)%1"(^/$(^($534$5204Y#12!702 N+C8T-3 \+T(^/"]&3TY4/CQ"4CX-
M#0H)(#Q"/B!#;V-K871O;R!#<F%F=',@*$%U<W1R86QI82D@/"]"/B \1D].
M5"!#3TQ/4CTB645,3$]7(CX@/$)2/@T-"@D\0E(^#0T*"5!H;VYE+BX@/"]&
M3TY4/@T-"B @(" @(#PO5$0^#0T*(" @(#PO5%(^#0T*(" \+U1!0DQ%/@T-
M"B @/% @04Q)1TX]0V5N=&5R/@T-"B @/$9/3E0@0T],3U(](B,P,# P9F8B
M/B9C;W!Y.R \1D].5"!325I%/2TQ/D-O<'ER:6=H=" Q.3DV#0T*(" F;F)S
M<#L\0CX\02!(4D5&/2)M86EL=&\Z96YQ=6ER:65S0')E86QM<RYC;VTN874B
M/E5N=&]L9"!296%L;7,\+T$^/"]"/B F;F)S<#L-#0H@($%L;"!R:6=H=',@
M<F5S97)V960N/$)2/@T-"B @3&%S="!U<&1A=&5D(#$P+S@O.38\+T9/3E0^
K/"]&3TY4/CQ"4CX-#0H\+T-%3E1%4CX-#0H\+T)/1%D^/"](5$U,/@T-"E0^
`
end

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 17:41:37 1999
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	id <m10FSLa-0000f4a@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:38:42 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: stratus.com!charles_spitzer
From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:32:39
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990223163239.009abcd0@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
References: <<"1999Feb23.9555.0*"@MHS>>
Precedence: bulk

At 05:05 PM 2/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Charles--what else is in the mix for copper patina besides copper sulfate
>and water?  Thanks
>in advance for the recipe.
>
>Nancy G

nothing. i just add copper sulfate and shake the jar until it doesn't
dissolve anymore. the amount will be different depending upon temperature;
i believe the warmer the water, more crystals will dissolve.

regards,
charlie
phx, az
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 17:57:24 1999
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	id <m10FSM9-0000Cra@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:39:17 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:37:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb23.133724.0>
Precedence: bulk

I tend to agree with Albert and prefer something simple and
straight-forward.... like Greer Gallery & Studios.  Sort of low-key
with a hint of family pride.  Our new auto signage will be changed
simply to: Greer Studios Church Windows.  Not much room for confusion
there, I don't think.  =


On the other hand, I also liked our now-defunct Peanut Gallery where
you could buy cheap original art and have beer and peanuts at the =

openings!  It was housed in the former Checker Chix Hatchery.*  We
didn't take it with us when we moved because our new digs were too =

classy... oh, well.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
(* read: barn)
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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 20:57:26 1999
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	for rglass-42; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:54:46 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #9 built 1998-Oct-12)
X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NGRe: Got an idea
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:54:30 -0800
Message-ID: <199902240354.TAA27673@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>In a message dated 2/22/99 1:05:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, BOBDU@prodigy.net
>writes:
>
><< Just knew this Navy stuff would come in handy someday. Bob >>
>
>OK then, you passed the level one test.
>
>What is a petard? As in hoisted on his own?

Don't know that, but I do know what can be done once the "sun is over the
yardarm"...just don't know what a yardarm is???

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 23:11:37 1999
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From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "glass bungi com" <glass@bungi.com>,
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Subject: Attention Lurker
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:40:57 -0600
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Gotcha,

Hellllllllo Alan..  Just like the film industry you have to schmooze people,
your first step is a biography. LaLa Land thrives on these ..... so I hear.
Not very long diatribe, just a few paragraphs introducing yourself. Send it
to me and I'll post it. Saturday is the usual day of posting and if I don't
have any to post I catch "Hell" from some of the group. They threaten me
with great bodily harm... and more.... its not a very pretty sight to
behold. As a matter of fact some of the things they tell me to do appear
physically impossible. So won't you please help a fellow Thespian (not
really... just a dramatic effect.. )

Thanks in Advance.


-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Terry <eastgatexx@email.msn.com>
To: Glass@Bungi.com <Glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 8:04 AM
Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!


>After a week of invisibly enjoying all the Bungi threads -- I've had to
>respond to this one.
>
>Congratulations!  I also loved the part about the kid and the wife.  I'm a
>sucker for a happy ending.
>
>(The fact that I live and work in the L.A. film industry might have
>something to do with that.)
>
>Good work on this (and all) threads on the bungi.com!
>
>Alan Terry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
>To: ktsplash <ktsplash@bigpond.com>
>Date: Monday, February 22, 1999 7:54 PM
>Subject: Re: HELP recovering payment - UPDATE!
>
>
>>Hey, I think that deserves a "Yeeehaaaaw!
>>
>>What a crumb of a guy teaching his son that way.
>>Cracks me up about the wife.  Glad to hear you got
>>your payment.
>>
>>T Suz
>>--
>>"Winning isn't always finishing first.
>>Sometimes winning is just finishing."
>>Manuel Diotte
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>
>
>
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 23:14:32 1999
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From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Carol Swann" <seaspray@mail.island.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NGRe: Got an idea
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:17:05 -0600
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A yardarm is something "That Brit Chick" is going to hang me from if I don't
start getting some more bios in quickly. Please help an "Old Salt"! She may
even "Shiver me Timbers",  or even "Tie me kangaroo down sport" (that could
hurt). Think I'll go fox-trotting on the old planter tomorrow.

Send them to me for posting Saturday.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: NGRe: Got an idea


>>In a message dated 2/22/99 1:05:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
BOBDU@prodigy.net
>>writes:
>>
>><< Just knew this Navy stuff would come in handy someday. Bob >>
>>
>>OK then, you passed the level one test.
>>
>>What is a petard? As in hoisted on his own?
>
>Don't know that, but I do know what can be done once the "sun is over the
>yardarm"...just don't know what a yardarm is???
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>
>check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
>http://come.to/The_E-Tour
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Tue Feb 23 23:20:15 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Conference time
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:52:51 -0500
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Hi everybody-

We're going to Denver to promote the studio at a liturgical conference
on Thursday, so won't be around until Sunday at the earliest.  Will answe=
r
emails when I get back.... just didn't want anyone to think I'd
permanently beamed up to the Mother ship.  Have fun! Will let you
know if church conferences are worth the cost.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 05:15:41 1999
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:52:08 EST
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In a message dated 2/23/99 11:32:38 PM, Monona wrote:

>"vapor droplets" is a contradiction in terms.  Vapor is a liquid in its 
>gas-like state.  Droplets are liquid particles.  
>
>Neither the HEPA nor the electrostatic precipitator (ESP) can capture a 
>vapor.  Mists may be captured

Oops, mist is what I meant, but I couldn't dredge the word up from the depths
of my foggy brain :-\ (pun intended)

(I guess that just goes to show just how *ex* a chemist -- and chemical
engineer -- I am...........)

Another coupla questions:

1.	What kind of ozone levels are generated by a "typical" electrostatic
	precipitator of the type that people with severe allergies are sometimes
	advised to install in their home heating/air conditioning system? Is
	it enough to pose a risk?

2.	A while back you said something about a big increase in asthma and
	other respiratory problems among pit musicians after they'd been
	exposed to a lot of fog-generator mist. I know from experience that
	stuff is irritating. Doesn't anyone use the old dry ice an hot water
	trick any more?


				-----------Sparks
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 05:41:41 1999
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Subject: Re: fume traps
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:52:06 EST
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Herewith Monona's reply to my coupla questions:

>> 1.What's in those respirator canisters these days? Used to be activated
>> charcoal/carbon, I think. <
>
>The canisters can contain 9 different grades of fabric particulate filters 
>and/or activated carbon and other materials which are specific treated so 
>they will collect one or more of the following:
>
>organic vapors, 
>ammonia and amines, 
>acid gases, and
>formaldehyde.  
>
>These cartridges can contain two or more types of collection media.  The 
>cartridge for one type of contaminant wont capture the other.  ANd there 
>are many gases and vapors for which there are no approved cartridges.
>
>
>> 2.How does a HEPA filter system compare with an electrostatic system in
>> getting rid of particulates, vapor droplets, etc.? <
>
>"vapor droplets" is a contradiction in terms.  Vapor is a liquid in its 
>gas-like state.  Droplets are liquid particles.  
>
>Neither the HEPA nor the electrostatic precipitator (ESP) can capture a 
>vapor.  Mists may be captured, but if they are volatile, they will just 
>evaporate and then go through the filter or ESP.
>
>Only particulates are captured by HEPAs and ESPs.
>
>HEPAs collect the material on the filter as the air is pulled through.  They 
>will collect any type of particle that has a diameter greater than 0.3um
>
>ESPs neutralize the charges on airborne particles.  This means:
>
>1. they can only collect particle that have a strong charge
>
>2.  they can't be used for flammable dusts like wood dust because of the 
>danger of fire from the electric charge.
>
>3.  the charge passing through air will create ozone which is a highly toxic 
>gas.  The dirtier the ESP, the more ozone will be produced.
>
>The type of ESP also will determine where the captured particle end up.  If 
>the collector has charged plates in it, the dust may either collect on the 
>plates or at the bottom of the unit.   If it is more of a negative ion 
>generator, there is no collection at all.  Instead, the discharge particles 
>just settle on surfaces in the room.
>
>
>Hope this helps.
>
>
>Monona Rossol
>ACTS
>181 Thompson St., # 23
>NYC NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 08:49:18 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:05:26 -0500
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Gang,

This is a general announcement FYI.  Shakeel and I
were doing an off-line conversation, and I thought
everyone would be interested.  Spectrum has started
inporting glass manufactured in China.  And the pre-
made lampshade kits from Dynasty are also made
in China.  Shakeel received one and was very
disappointed in the crudeness of the foiling and
not good glass used.

Shakeel wrote:
<...Did you open up and look at the Dynasty "Mission"
kit you sent me?  It said "Made in China"....>

No, I didn't open up the Dynasty kit and look at it prior to
mailing it off to you.  Thanks for the warning about them.
Not nice business practices.  I've got the Spectrum announcement
right here in front of me.  It says...

"The next issue of THE SCORE (March 1st mailing) will
include our first promotion of the Spectrum Express line of
imported clear textures.  These clear glasses, manufactured
in China and available exclusively from Spectrum, are now
being shipped along with standard Spectrum products to all
stocking distributors.

There are four separate clear textures in this group, including
two that are available in both 5mm and 3mm thicknesses....."

I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
me believe it's also coming from China.

I agree with you.  If I wanted to buy Chinese glass I would have
purchased Chinese glass.  Thanks for the warning about
the Dynasty kits.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 11:22:23 1999
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Subject: New member of the group
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:51:50 -0500
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Hi group,

May I introduce myself? My name is Burkhard Lierath
and I am living in Berlin, Germany
And you will find out soon enough, that English is not  my
natural language, but I can bring my message across.
(At least most of the time)
Of course I like to work with glass!
I am married and my wife Elisabeth is owning a little studio.
She has regular opening times and beside working with
glass, we do sell glass and tools etc. The income is still
not enough to make a decent living, but we survive.
In addition to flatglass work, we do fusing, pate de verre
and also sandblasting in addition to other things.
Elisabeth is giving classes on regular basis, but mostly
she is working for customers.
Dont get me wrong! We are still kind of amateurs because
we feel, that it will take long years to master an art.
If workload is low, we go to classes and seminars ourself and =

of course, we experiment a lot. (Sometimes with success)
This should be enough for a first mail. We will look into
the mailbox on regualar intervalls and will return incoming
e-mails within a week. (Most times within 2 days)

Best regards from the City of Berlin,

Burkhard
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 11:51:33 1999
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:08:37 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.3837.0>
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>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
me believe it's also coming from China.<<

I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 12:04:03 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
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Subject: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:17:44 -0500
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I've also heard that China has started manufacturing its own glass ....
and that it's quite good.  That should make Wissmach change its
marketing focus a bit!  Competition is a beautiful thing.  Keeps us
all sharp.

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 12:21:23 1999
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Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Cle
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:49:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.34945.0>
References: <<199902232332_MC2-6B9B-8970@compuserve.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:
> SNIP>
> > I presently use a respirator. I work below a ceiling fan...<
> 
> The ceiling fan will not be useful.  If it draws air up past your face
> it makes things worse.
> 
> > plus I also
> > have a small clip on fan. <
> 
> May help some but is more likely to stir up as much dust as it blows away.
> 
> > When the weather is warmer I also work with
> > the sliding glass doors open. <
> 
> Not much help.
> 
> > Truth be told I only use the respirator
> > when I plan on soldering for a long period. It gets hot & sweaty. I also
> > have not figured out when I need to change the filters. They look clean
> > sooooo when? <
> 
> The only respirators you should use for soldering should be the N100, the
> R100 or the P100.  The N100 and the R100 should only be used about 8
> consecutive hours.  The P100 can be used until it looks bad, is damaged, or
> you sense it is harder to breathe through than when new.
> 
> 
> > These are my questions...
> > 1) Can an air cleaner with HEPA filter take the place of the fume trap? <
> 
> What the hell is a "fume trap?"  Fumes are particles created during the
> heating of metal that are well under 10 microns in size.  So any legitimate
> fume capture system has to be a HEPA by definition.
> 
> > Most of these cleaners deliver clean air (blank) times per hour in a
> > (size)  e.g... 6 times per hour in a 8'x10' room. <
> 
> Boy, do I want to sell you a car.   There is a big difference between
> circulating a whole room's air through the filter, and "delivering clean
> air."  The air coming out of the filter is the old stale room air which is
> only "cleaner" because the limited amounts of stuff each type of air cleaner
> can capture have been removed.
> 
> >  It appears the fume trap needs to be almost "on" your work to catch to
> > fumes... so will the "whole room" air cleaner take its place?
> 
> What you need to do is get some incense and hold it right where you solder.
> See how well it captures.   And be VERY careful to see where the exhaust
> for the unit goes.   I've seen some unit HEPAs whose exhaust is on the front
> and it blows the solder fume away and doesn't catch much at all.
> 
> > 2) I also notice that there is a Smoke Absorber available. It is smaller
> > then the fume trap and costs 3 times as much. Is anyone familiar with
> > this product? >
> 
> Smoke is a combination of gases, vapors, fumes, dust-sized particles and
> mist.  There is no system in the world that can absorb it all.  Find out what
> the liars who make this product are using for a filter.
> 
> > These are my criteria for the purchase
> > Size
> > How noisy
> > Cost > >
> 
> Reorder your priorities:
> 
> 1. efficiency of the filter's capture of fume-sized particles (a full HEPA
> which captures 99.97% of particles 0.3 um in diameter and larger),
> 
> 2. How well the systems draws air (either linear flow at the point of work or
> cubic feet/minute for air cleaners).
> 
> 3. Then look at size, noise, cost.  No point getting a small, quiet, cheap
> unit that doesn't work.
> 
> Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
> Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
> 181 Thompson St., # 23
> New York NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062

-- 
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�
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 12:50:56 1999
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From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:34:45 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.83445.0>
Precedence: bulk

Spectrum does make two different sheet sizes.  The 20x48 that you refer to
is probably their "t" glass and is lower in price than their standard stock
size.  This glass is usually the first run or last run.  If you examine the
two different sheets the "t" appears to be flawed.  The waves are actually
stringy looking.
Hope this helps.
Molly
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports


>>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
>as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
>me believe it's also coming from China.<<
>
>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Think glass, have class.
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 13:23:55 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Grind/No-Grind help, please
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:52:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.10529.0>
Precedence: bulk

Gang, I forgot to save a copy of my Grind/No-Grind
report.  If anyone saved that message, would you
please foreward me a copy?  Thanks.  I'm working
on the 2nd installment, in which I attempt curved
pieces.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 13:47:03 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Grind/No-Grind help, please
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:52:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.10529.0>
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Gang, I forgot to save a copy of my Grind/No-Grind
report.  If anyone saved that message, would you
please foreward me a copy?  Thanks.  I'm working
on the 2nd installment, in which I attempt curved
pieces.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 13:53:38 1999
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X-Path: socent.org!atf
From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>, bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Clean Air
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:20:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.11206.0>
References: <<1999Feb24.34945.0>>
Organization: SOC Enterprises
Precedence: bulk

Hi Shirley,
Thanks for getting me some answers. Thank you Monona for taking the time =
to set me
straight.

Now can anyone make a suggestion as to what I should buy!!? There is a gl=
ut of
products on the market & was hoping for help in this most important purch=
ase.

Thanks,
K See ....holding my breath in DC metro area.


Shirley Balloch wrote:

> Monona Rossol wrote:
> >
> > ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:
> > SNIP>
> > > I presently use a respirator. I work below a ceiling fan...<
> >
> > The ceiling fan will not be useful.  If it draws air up past your fac=
e
> > it makes things worse.
> >
> > > plus I also
> > > have a small clip on fan. <
> >
> > May help some but is more likely to stir up as much dust as it blows =
away.
> >
> > > When the weather is warmer I also work with
> > > the sliding glass doors open. <
> >
> > Not much help.
> >
> > > Truth be told I only use the respirator
> > > when I plan on soldering for a long period. It gets hot & sweaty. I=
 also
> > > have not figured out when I need to change the filters. They look c=
lean
> > > sooooo when? <
> >
> > The only respirators you should use for soldering should be the N100,=
 the
> > R100 or the P100.  The N100 and the R100 should only be used about 8
> > consecutive hours.  The P100 can be used until it looks bad, is damag=
ed, or
> > you sense it is harder to breathe through than when new.
> >
> >
> > > These are my questions...
> > > 1) Can an air cleaner with HEPA filter take the place of the fume t=
rap? <
> >
> > What the hell is a "fume trap?"  Fumes are particles created during t=
he
> > heating of metal that are well under 10 microns in size.  So any legi=
timate
> > fume capture system has to be a HEPA by definition.
> >
> > > Most of these cleaners deliver clean air (blank) times per hour in =
a
> > > (size)  e.g... 6 times per hour in a 8'x10' room. <
> >
> > Boy, do I want to sell you a car.   There is a big difference between
> > circulating a whole room's air through the filter, and "delivering cl=
ean
> > air."  The air coming out of the filter is the old stale room air whi=
ch is
> > only "cleaner" because the limited amounts of stuff each type of air =
cleaner
> > can capture have been removed.
> >
> > >  It appears the fume trap needs to be almost "on" your work to catc=
h to
> > > fumes... so will the "whole room" air cleaner take its place?
> >
> > What you need to do is get some incense and hold it right where you s=
older.
> > See how well it captures.   And be VERY careful to see where the exha=
ust
> > for the unit goes.   I've seen some unit HEPAs whose exhaust is on th=
e front
> > and it blows the solder fume away and doesn't catch much at all.
> >
> > > 2) I also notice that there is a Smoke Absorber available. It is sm=
aller
> > > then the fume trap and costs 3 times as much. Is anyone familiar wi=
th
> > > this product? >
> >
> > Smoke is a combination of gases, vapors, fumes, dust-sized particles =
and
> > mist.  There is no system in the world that can absorb it all.  Find =
out what
> > the liars who make this product are using for a filter.
> >
> > > These are my criteria for the purchase
> > > Size
> > > How noisy
> > > Cost > >
> >
> > Reorder your priorities:
> >
> > 1. efficiency of the filter's capture of fume-sized particles (a full=
 HEPA
> > which captures 99.97% of particles 0.3 um in diameter and larger),
> >
> > 2. How well the systems draws air (either linear flow at the point of=
 work or
> > cubic feet/minute for air cleaners).
> >
> > 3. Then look at size, noise, cost.  No point getting a small, quiet, =
cheap
> > unit that doesn't work.
> >
> > Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
> > Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
> > 181 Thompson St., # 23
> > New York NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062
>
> --
> x=9F>"3=16=01=06=90=08
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 14:09:50 1999
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: "pj friend" <artglass@waterw.com>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:50:29 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.105029.0>
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Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
-----Original Message-----
From: pj friend <artglass@waterw.com>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports


>
>
>and .....................lamberts has opened another factory in Germany
>...hiring all the guys from Dsag.
>Looks like we're going to get some of those wonderful large sheets again.
>And alot more choices.
>
>
>
>
>>I've also heard that China has started manufacturing its own glass ....
>>and that it's quite good.  That should make Wissmach change its
>>marketing focus a bit!  Competition is a beautiful thing.  Keeps us
>>all sharp.
>>
>>best,
>>
>>Dani Greer
>>----
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>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 14:15:55 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:07:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.11730.0>
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Message text written by "Bob E Duchesneau"
>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses.<

Naw...I usually purchase the colored waterglass sheets in the large
sheets.  I know the difference between waterglass and their small
ripple.  The look of the Spectrum waterglass has changed significantly
in the past year.  The sheets are now thinner, and the waves are
thinner.  Some folk like the new waterglass look.  I like the thicker
original look.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 14:25:04 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:07:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.11726.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Carol Swann
>As for the kits, I'm unaware of what these are about...<

They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
they are produced in China using below-market
wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
the market.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 14:58:59 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: product needed
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:33:44 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.63344.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

My mom found the neatest thing at a garage sale.
It looks like a lid, with feet impressions stamped into it.
The person had puttied scrap textured glass into it and we presume were
using it for a plant pot holder.
I think it sounds like a good low cost craft item.
Anyone ever seen this?
And do you know where I can buy the lid like thing?
Thanks in advance.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 16:08:14 1999
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From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fw: Attention Lurker
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:36:53 -0600
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>have any to post I catch "Hell" from some of the group. They threaten me
>with great bodily harm... and more.... its not a very pretty sight to
>behold. As a matter of fact some of the things they tell me to do appear
>physically impossible. So won't you please help a fellow Thespian (not
>really... just a dramatic effect.. )

Patrick, you're a HOOT!
I can't even think of an acceptable comment to make on this one, but I just
couldn't let it pass me by!
LOL!
Blake
:-)

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 16:37:19 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:00:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.1406.0>
Precedence: bulk

Worked on a commission consisting of 5 interrelated
small windows made up of 116 total pieces.  These
are being done in copper foil, using all glue chip
glass in four colors.  The vast majority of the lines
in these panes are curved.  Some straight lines,
as in the outside edges and some (very few) border
edges.  The rest make up four roses (natural style)
and their leaves.

I was attempting to duplicate last week's experiment
whereby I was able to do away with grinding.  Sorry
to disappoint everyone, but 'twas not possible with
this design.

Statistics:

# of pieces: 116
# of straight line edges done without grinding: 86
# of straight line edges with grinding: 92
# of inside curve edges done without grinding: 35
# of inside curve edges with grinding: 135
# of outside curve edges done without grinding: 14
# of outside curve edges with grinding: 111
# of times I cut my finger on unground edges: 1
 (I learn quickly!)

Percentages:
48% of straight edges were done without grinding
20% of inside curve edges were done without grinding
11% of outside curve edges were done without grinding

My worst case was the outside curves.
No matter how carefully I cut the outside curve edges,
I still got those annoying tiny "points" where two tangent
cuts meet when doing the outside curve.  And no matter
how carefully I grozed, I was unsatisfied with the results
and ended up grinding the tiny "points" off.  I'm a real
stickler for getting a very smooth line, and just couldn't
make outside curves work without the grinding to my
satisfaction.

Inside curves were better, but I'm more conservative
on cutting inside curves.  Most of the time, the reason
why I resorted to grinding the last fraction of glass off
the inside curve was because I was conservative
with my cutting.  Most of the pattern pieces with inside
curves had the curves ending in thin points (pedals of
the roses).  So my tendency to be conservative and
preserve the points and not have to recut the inside
curve pieces showed up here.

As to the straight lines, I probably should improve my
cutting accuracy here and not grind any straight lines.
The majority of times I did grind straight lines was
because of razor-thin flanges left on the edges after
using the running pliers to run the score.  These flanges
were just enough to push the "straight" edge out of
true straight when I put all the pieces together on the
cartoon prior to foiling.  Also, it's one of these flanges
which drew blood.

Other observations: Non-ground edges tend to cause
problems when using a foiling machine.  In my case,
the flanges caused the edge itself to not be flat, and
the piece had a tendency to try to slip out of the foiling
machine wheel.  And the non-ground points are very
sharp and will cause the foil to split or tear when foiling
over the point, if you are not careful about backing off
on the pressure.

My conclusions: For my curved designs, I will still need
to grind most curved pieces.  But with some more practice,
I can eliminate grinding straight lines.  This will save
time in the long run.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 17:00:18 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Grind/NoGrind thank you
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:13:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.141345.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanks to all who emailed me with my original musings
on the grind/no grind thread.  No need for anyone else
to email it to me.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 17:10:38 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:34:49 -0800
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Precedence: bulk


>They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
>already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
>is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
>All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
>they are produced in China using below-market
>wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
>the market.

Good grief...open package, add water...and presto...an instant lamp.  What
on earth will they think of next?  Someone must have found out that they can
cut and foil more lamps than they can solder overseas...I can't imagine that
these would catch on over here, or that any retail places would actually
carry them, preferring instead to make money with classes???

People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
presto instant things, would they?

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 17:36:26 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New member of the group
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@pop>
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:24:26 +0000
Message-ID: <199902250117.UAA06619@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> May I introduce myself? My name is Burkhard Lierath
> and I am living in Berlin, Germany

Hallo, Burhard!

Back in the 60s I lived in Berlin. Have fond memories of Wannsee, 
Ku-Damm, good people and great food! And, of course, absolutely 
excellent beer. <grinzeln> I'd love a curry wurst right now, in fact, 
complete with chopped onions on a bed of rice and smothered in hot 
sauce and curry. 

Albert

Albert Lewis, Executive Director
International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
A 501(c)(6) not-for-profit association
54 Cherry St., PO Box 1809, North Adams MA 01247-1809
(413) 663-5512  Fax: (413) 663-7167
_____________________________________________
Home page        http://igga.org/
Member Studios   http://igga.org/guildtop.htm
Sources Guide    http://igga.org/guide.htm
Guild Library    http://aiap.com/amazon/



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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 18:04:57 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: BOBDU@prodigy.net
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:48:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.144830.0>
Precedence: bulk

Bob,

At RAGS we had Jim Matthews from Spectrum as our guest a couple of months
ago and he told us that Spectrum was beginning to ship waterglass in the
CLEAR ONLY in a full 24" width sheet. (by 48" as usual.)  

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com



On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:08:37 -0800 "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
writes:
>>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
>as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
>me believe it's also coming from China.<<
>
>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Think glass, have class.
>

>

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 18:20:04 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: Ensembles@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:50:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.145038.0>
Precedence: bulk

I liked the original waterglass best from about 15 years ago.  The
thickness and color density varied wildly.  The sheets often were not
flat, but it was great!

The new stuff is kind of boring.

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:07:30 -0500 "Christie A. Wood"
<Ensembles@compuserve.com> writes:
>Message text written by "Bob E Duchesneau"
>>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses.<
>
>Naw...I usually purchase the colored waterglass sheets in the large
>sheets.  I know the difference between waterglass and their small
>ripple.  The look of the Spectrum waterglass has changed 
>significantly
>in the past year.  The sheets are now thinner, and the waves are
>thinner.  Some folk like the new waterglass look.  I like the thicker
>original look.
>
>Christie A. Wood
>Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
>P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
>http://www.igga.org/wood/

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 19:04:45 1999
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X-Path: fair.net!andor
From: "Linda Letscher" <andor@fair.net>
To: "Carol Swann" <seaspray@mail.island.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:38:46 -0500
Message-ID: <199902250140.UAA08890@smtp.america.net>
Precedence: bulk

Carol,

This kit sounds like sewing and buying the pattern with fabric and
everything cut..... why bother...  I think a newbie might give it a try, but
realize in very short order that there is more to making something that
ordering a kit.  I have never done a lamp but should I ever want to, I would
think the sense of accomplishment would be in creating it from scratch.
Choosing the colors and doing the whole thing.  Having said that, I am sure
they will sell a lot of them.  But then Chevrolet sold a lot of GeoMetros
too!!!!...and they still make Corvettes.  :-) (apples & oranges... no
comparison)  People could order these and end up giving even more business
to the local retailers for foil to refoil and lessons to learn how to solder
and fabricate the thing.

I have been to China and been to communes that had people, doing very fine
silk work or cutting jade,picking tea leaves.  Believe me no matter how they
sanitized it, it was slave labor.  I saw young women sitting doing silk on
silk embroidery with one stand of silk, ONE STRAND!!!, with their eyes 4
inches from the piece they were working on.  How long are those eyes going
to last?  I would not buy any of their exquisitely beautiful work, just felt
it was wrong.

I wonder who at Spectrum had the brilliant idea to come up with these kits
and why?  $$??

Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports


>
>>They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
>>already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
>>is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
>>All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
>>they are produced in China using below-market
>>wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
>>the market.
>
>Good grief...open package, add water...and presto...an instant lamp.  What
>on earth will they think of next?  Someone must have found out that they
can
>cut and foil more lamps than they can solder overseas...I can't imagine
that
>these would catch on over here, or that any retail places would actually
>carry them, preferring instead to make money with classes???
>
>People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
>presto instant things, would they?
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>
>check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
>http://come.to/The_E-Tour
>
>----
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>


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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 19:21:43 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: New member of the group
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:26:54 +0000
Message-ID: <199902250238.CAA01535@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk

Liebe Burkhard und Elisabeth!
Seid herzlich willkommen!! 

We are certainly a very multi-national stained glass group; with 
people from all corners, including Poland, Sweden, Canada, Australia 
and a number of "lurkers" in other European countries.We also have 
Herbert in Germany, but he has grown very quiet lately. I myself am 
replying from UK, where there are about 12 people on the Bungi Group. 
I am the irrascable Swede who always manages to throw a spanner in 
the works somewhere / somehow. 

Fairly soon you will be hounded by a crazy, mad American Irishman 
called Patrick who will use all sort of ploys to extract a biography 
from you for the Group.  The biographies are normally posted late on 
Saturday. There are about 700 - 800 of us on the group world-wide and 
only about 130 bios posted. Patrick is not doing a very good job, his 
excuses are many and pathetic; including being "hounded" by a 
man-eating Old English Sheepdog or trying to amuse/pacify us all by 
performing ballet dances dressed in a stained glass tu-tu.
Ah well!!
Like Albert, I too know Berlin very well; I studied in Germany for 
about 7 years and have friends in Berlin that I visited every month 
in those days.
There are also a number of German-extracted people in USA on Bungi, 
so you are not really alone here.
...And never mind any shyness about English! After all, the ones that 
abuse the English language the most, are the native speakers!!!  ;->
Welcome aboard!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Burkhard wrote:
> 
> May I introduce myself? My name is Burkhard Lierath
> and I am living in Berlin, Germany
> And you will find out soon enough, that English is not  my
> natural language, but I can bring my message across.
> (At least most of the time)
> Of course I like to work with glass!
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 19:40:06 1999
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From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dynasty kits
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:43:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.16438.0>
Precedence: bulk

I think they go along with the garden stone kits that include everything,
***even*** the glass which has already been cut for you!!

Jerri


>
>Good grief...open package, add water...and presto...an instant lamp.  What
>on earth will they think of next?  Someone must have found out that they
can
>cut and foil more lamps than they can solder overseas...I can't imagine
that
>these would catch on over here, or that any retail places would actually
>carry them, preferring instead to make money with classes???
>
>People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
>presto instant things, would they?
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>

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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 19:49:38 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Fw: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:53:28 -0500
Message-ID: <199902250249.VAA05857@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

2/24/99 3:50 PM pj friend artglass@waterw.com

I *saw* some of that Chinese waterglass today at my local retailers. It's 
cheaper, yes, and it looks different. The "wave" is different. The clear 
has a different tint (bluer) than the regular waterglass. My retailer is 
keeping it separate from his regular waterglass stock, but be warned, 
take a good look at it before you buy. If you're matching it up with 
waterglass you already have in stock, it will show up quite differently 
in a panel.

Suzanne

>>
>>and .....................lamberts has opened another factory in Germany
>>...hiring all the guys from Dsag.
>>Looks like we're going to get some of those wonderful large sheets again.
>>And alot more choices.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I've also heard that China has started manufacturing its own glass ....
>>>and that it's quite good.  That should make Wissmach change its
>>>marketing focus a bit!  Competition is a beautiful thing.  Keeps us
>>>all sharp.
>>>
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 20:06:44 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:59:01 -0500
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2/24/99 7:34 PM Carol Swann seaspray@mail.island.net

>
>People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
>presto instant things, would they?

Remember "paint by numbers" kits????
Suzanne
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From owner-glass Wed Feb 24 20:08:40 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:14:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.171414.0>
Precedence: bulk

Christie,

The tangent lines you refer to,  are they two separate score lines used
to create one curve or are they where two distinct and different curves
meet?

If it is one curve, try scoring the complete curve in one continuous line
first.  Use careful pressure to open up the score line all along the
curve without actually breaking the glass.  Put the piece back on the
table and score relief lines tangent to the curve and the scrap will just
drop off when you run (break) the relief score lines.

If on the other hand they are distinct separate curves you can score the
first cut without breaking it.  Score the next curve so that the score
line ends at the first score line.  Now carefully open the second line
you scored so that it runs into the forst line and you should be able to
get them both our cleanly.

Was that intelligible?  ;-)

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

>My worst case was the outside curves.
>No matter how carefully I cut the outside curve edges,
>I still got those annoying tiny "points" where two tangent
>cuts meet when doing the outside curve.  And no matter
>how carefully I grozed, I was unsatisfied with the results
>and ended up grinding the tiny "points" off.  I'm a real
>stickler for getting a very smooth line, and just couldn't
>make outside curves work without the grinding to my
>satisfaction.
>
Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 00:13:06 1999
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Leprechaun anyone? Free pattern ;-)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:40:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb24.204021.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just thought I'd put in a little plug here of sorts.  Our free pattern of
the month is a Leprechaun so if you want to download him just drop in.


Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

http://www.dodgestudio.com

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 00:26:03 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: started project
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 23:29:26 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.152926.0>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

Oh I am so HAPPY...I finally started back in after a loooong
slump...well, I cut out a good fourth of the pieces for my daughters
kitty clock...I may be using my never before used grinder before the
week is up...I think I am over my "glass block" YEAH!
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 01:20:28 1999
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From: "Shakeel" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: "B.Lierath" <Lierath@compuserve.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:47:41 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.04741.0>
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Welcome aboard Burklard (and Elisabeth too).

You are at the right place with a right people. 

Enjoy. (Till Pat gets to you :-))

Warm Regards

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313
-----Original Message-----
From: B.Lierath <Lierath@compuserve.com>
To: List <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 3:35 AM
Subject: New member of the group


>
>Hi group,
>
>May I introduce myself? My name is Burkhard Lierath
>and I am living in Berlin, Germany
>And you will find out soon enough, that English is not  my
>natural language, but I can bring my message across.
>(At least most of the time)
>Of course I like to work with glass!
>I am married and my wife Elisabeth is owning a little studio.
>She has regular opening times and beside working with
>glass, we do sell glass and tools etc. The income is still
>not enough to make a decent living, but we survive.
>In addition to flatglass work, we do fusing, pate de verre
>and also sandblasting in addition to other things.
>Elisabeth is giving classes on regular basis, but mostly
>she is working for customers.
>Dont get me wrong! We are still kind of amateurs because
>we feel, that it will take long years to master an art.
>If workload is low, we go to classes and seminars ourself and =
>
>of course, we experiment a lot. (Sometimes with success)
>This should be enough for a first mail. We will look into
>the mailbox on regualar intervalls and will return incoming
>e-mails within a week. (Most times within 2 days)
>
>Best regards from the City of Berlin,
>
>Burkhard
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 02:22:54 1999
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Spectrum Waterglass
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:46:24 +0000
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At 19:50 24/02/99 -0500, Gary wrote:
>I liked the original waterglass best from about 15 years ago.  The
>thickness and color density varied wildly.  The sheets often were not
>flat, but it was great!
>
>The new stuff is kind of boring.
>
Absolutely, and remember how it used to come with the rolled edge on it too?
Terrific for unusual boxes and mirror or picture frames as you could leave
the smooth rolled edge unfoiled.
And now they cut the edges off there is often not one right angle on the
sheet either.
Ah well - the good old days???
EliZabeth in Bournemouth
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 05:52:57 1999
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Glass Sites I Found
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:19:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.11946.0>
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Hey guys,

These are some sites I found, surfing. All are glass related. My favorite 
is: http://www.stainedartglass.com/cayman.html. I just had to print that 
one out in full color. Check out the jellyfish that look etched and the 
little fish in the background in the center panel. This has got to be the 
most colorful panel I have ever seen.

This site http://novaclassique.com/bentglass.htm has a nifty bathroom sink 
- all glass.

And this site has three dimensional glass http://www.ultraglas.com/. Didn't 
see any prices but it's fun to look at.


Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 06:04:40 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Bungi List" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Welcome Burkhard 
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:58:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.15835.0>
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Hi Burkhard, welcome to the group.  You'll find you have a lot in common
with most of us here.

Karen


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 06:10:18 1999
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There are a lot of people who want others to do the major portion of projects
(lazy or not really interested in developing those skills) so that they can
receive the personal credit for the creative work themselves.  
Lets face it, there are leaders, there are followers and there are those who
are manipulative enough to take advantage of it and call it "there own"

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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:07:26 -0500
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Message text written by Carol Swann
>As for the kits, I'm unaware of what these are about...<

They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
they are produced in China using below-market
wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
the market.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 06:23:03 1999
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From: "Shakeel" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:23:59 +0800
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>Dear K
>
>Check out the Jen-Ken kilns sold by Marty Daily at Center DeVerre
>
>http://www.cdvkiln.com/
>
>Marty sells to glass artists at prices considerable below retail (an even
>some wholesale) prices.
>
>Elizabeth Johnson
>dmj@cyberportal.net


Dear K

Elizabeth is very right. I can vouch for that. Marty has some of the best
prices for kilns

Warm Regards

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 06:56:48 1999
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From: Elleni Drafts <ellenid@earthlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Hello
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:03:18 -0500
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Hi,

I'm a newcomer to the list and to stained glass. I've only started classes
about three weeks ago but have already completed eight projects including a
picture frame I'm rather proud of :-)

Is this a good list to be on as a beginner or are you all professionals
with years of experience? I wouldn't want to ask beginner type questions
and have you all think I'm stupid if this is a "professional" list.



Elleni
ellenid@earthlink.net
South Carolina - Smiling Faces - Beautiful Places


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 07:27:04 1999
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From: "Respess, Janet Crocket" <RESPESSJ@MAIL.ECU.EDU>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Copyright restrictions
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:36:24 -0500
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If someone has a book that is copyrighted... I understand you cannot
reproduce the book and sell it... but can you make the designs in the book
and sell the finished product?

If not, then how can shop owners make the designs and sell them in their
stores?

Just wondering.
Director of Advertising
The East Carolinian
East Carolina University
Greenville, NC  27858
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 07:47:39 1999
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Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:12:26 -0600
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Sorry, but can someone please send me the url for the clean up
instructions for the Happy99 worm?
Thanks

Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 08:00:02 1999
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Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:40:28 +0000
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> If someone has a book that is copyrighted... I understand you cannot
> reproduce the book and sell it... but can you make the designs in the book
> and sell the finished product?

Yes, that's what the (pattern) book is for, up to a limit. Most 
publishers these days say something like, "If you're going to make 
and sell more than X number of copies, you have to contact us to set 
up a royalty arrangement." After all, the designer of the patterns 
will want to participate in those 10,000 suncatchers being sold at 
Wal-Mart. <smile>

On the other hand, design your own pattern and avoid the royalty.

Albert
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 08:04:43 1999
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From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Elleni Drafts <ellenid@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:09:01 -0500
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Elleni Drafts wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm a newcomer to the list and to stained glass. I've only started classes
> about three weeks ago but have already completed eight projects including a
> picture frame I'm rather proud of :-)
> 
> Is this a good list to be on as a beginner or are you all professionals
> with years of experience? I wouldn't want to ask beginner type questions
> and have you all think I'm stupid if this is a "professional" list.
> 
> Elleni
> ellenid@earthlink.net
> South Carolina - Smiling Faces - Beautiful Places
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it's a mix of both, easy and hard questions will usually be answered.
unless it's been asked a thousand times before, in which case you would
have to look it up in the archives. mainly because some of those
questions are really long.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 08:29:24 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: Elleni Drafts <ellenid@earthlink.net>
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Subject: Re: Hello
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:17:11 -0500
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Organization: SOC Enterprises
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Welcome Elleni,

The only stupid question you can ask this group is the one you didn't ask!!

You will learn so very much and travel on the net like you have never have
before. Check with me privately & I can give you some site to check out.

K See
Fairfax, Virginia (is for lovers)

Elleni Drafts wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm a newcomer to the list and to stained glass. I've only started classes
> about three weeks ago but have already completed eight projects including a
> picture frame I'm rather proud of :-)
>
> Is this a good list to be on as a beginner or are you all professionals
> with years of experience? I wouldn't want to ask beginner type questions
> and have you all think I'm stupid if this is a "professional" list.
>
> Elleni
> ellenid@earthlink.net
> South Carolina - Smiling Faces - Beautiful Places
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 09:16:34 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re:  Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:50:47 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.155047.0>
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>>lampshade kits in which the glass is
>>already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
>>is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.

To which Shirley G replied:

>There are a lot of people who want others to do the major portion of projects
>(lazy or not really interested in developing those skills) so that they can
>receive the personal credit for the creative work themselves.  

It reminds me of the kits that flooded the market when the "needlepoint craze"
hit 20-some years ago. You could get them with the design filled in and all
you had to do was acres and acres of background. My mom took one look at them
and said, "But that's the boring part! They've already done the fun part for
you, what good is that?"


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 09:18:32 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Hello
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:07:52 -0500
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Message text written by Elleni Drafts
>Is this a good list to be on as a beginner or are you all professionals
with years of experience? I wouldn't want to ask beginner type questions
and have you all think I'm stupid if this is a "professional" list.<

Hi there Elleni.  We at bungi are at all levels of experience in
glass working.  There are many first-timers (sometimes called
newbies) such as yourself.  There are people like myself who
have been doing copper-foil & lead work for only a few years
(in my case, 6 years).  There are also professional studios
represented here.  But not to worry.  Any and all questions are
perfectly legitimate and are welcome.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 09:34:18 1999
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To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:07:47 -0500
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Message text written by INTERNET:dodgestudio@juno.com
>The tangent lines you refer to,  are they two separate score lines used
to create one curve or are they where two distinct and different curves
meet?<

They are 2 separate score lines used to create one curve.
That's the way I was taught.  Thank you ever so much for
describing the alternate method whereby you score the
entire curve, then go back and add in releaf scores.  I shall
try that method.  This bungi group is great, n'est pas?

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 09:40:14 1999
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To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:07:50 -0500
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Thanks to Debbie for info about eliminating the little
"flange thingies" (technical term) by using the Morton
button.  I shall try it.  BTW, the glass used was Wissmach
glue chip.  I was using both Venture 3/16" black-backed
foil and Ecco 7/32" black-backed foil.  Equally good
sticking ability to the glue chip glass.  I very carefully
washed & dried each pieces of glass prior to foiling,
since I use the "American" method whereby you paste
the cutout pattern onto the glass prior to cutting.

And I am posting this message on the bungi line, as I
think her comments are quite valuable.  Again, thanks
for the pointer about using the Morton button to eliminate
the flanges.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 09:59:19 1999
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Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:37:54 EST
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Burkhard,

So glad you found this list. In many ways, it's like going to a seminar each
day, and once you've read enough mail to figure out who's who, you'll begin to
feel like you are "talking" to these folks, in person. Watch out for Patrick
though. Although we are both of Irish descent, I am of the lace curtain
variety, and he is definitely "shanty Irish". Since your first post was
largely biographical, perhaps he won't bother you for a biography, and you'll
be spared.  Welcome, and enjoy

Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, California, USA
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 10:07:16 1999
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From: "Jak N Wolfy" <rjlcon@ticnet.com>
To: "Elleni Drafts" <ellenid@earthlink.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Hello
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:24:28 -0600
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Elleni,

No question is stupid, and from what I have seen from this group, they all
enjoy helping a neebie. A few of them might sound a little rough and tumble
but their hearts are alway in the right place. So welcome to the group and
as for questions, ask away.
                                                         Jackie
-----Original Message-----
From: Elleni Drafts <ellenid@earthlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 9:04 AM
Subject: Hello


>Hi,
>
>I'm a newcomer to the list and to stained glass. I've only started classes
>about three weeks ago but have already completed eight projects including a
>picture frame I'm rather proud of :-)
>
>Is this a good list to be on as a beginner or are you all professionals
>with years of experience? I wouldn't want to ask beginner type questions
>and have you all think I'm stupid if this is a "professional" list.
>
>
>
>Elleni
>ellenid@earthlink.net
>South Carolina - Smiling Faces - Beautiful Places
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Welcome...
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:20:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.62042.0>
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Welcome Burkard and wife....I too, am new to the group. You will learn so
much from them and they are always available for help on any project. They
are truly a talented menagerie of folks. Just sit back and read away....you
are sure to learn something new everyday......Abbie Mason


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 10:34:40 1999
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From: GlassLites@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Got an idea
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:27:36 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.172736.0>
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 2/22/99, 1:37:29 PM, Shirley B writes:
<<The lamp base is a replica, I don't know what you call it.  It is a
holder for the wooden poker thingy they use on sailing boats in the
knotted ropes.  Ya know so you can get the wet rope to unknot easily.
You see them all the time on old pirate movies, they are always hitting
someone over the head with them. >>

I really love your discription. <G>

I think what you are describing is called a belaying pin. (my other job is a
naval architect).

Yeah, I know - I'm working on that bio....

Cheryl Lowe
Glass Lites Studio
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 10:42:16 1999
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From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re:ng,worm eradication
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:47:17 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990225124715.007566a0@pop.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

At 09:12 AM 2/25/99 -0600, Suzanne wrote:
>Sorry, but can someone please send me the url for the clean up
>instructions for the Happy99 worm?

My internet provider just sent this our last Friday
Dee
 -----------------
TIP OF THE WEEK I - Happy99.exe worm - (New)
-----------------
Our e-mail support staff answers hundreds of e-mails a day.  In the 
past week, at least five customers have inadvertently sent us this 
Happy99.exe worm.  We figure that about 2 percent of the 
mail we get is now carrying the Happy99.exe worm and we'd like to get 
that figure back to zero percent.

If you have recently run a program that displays fireworks in a small 
window that says "Happy New Year 1999", most likely your computer has 
this worm.

First, let's get rid of that program and then we'll tell you more about 
it.

NOTE: As far as we know, this worm ONLY affects Windows 95/98/NT users.  
Windows 3.1, Macintosh and other operating systems are apparently not 
affected.

------------
INSTRUCTIONS
------------
1. Print out these instructions.
2. Click Start | Shut Down | "Restart Computer in MS-DOS mode"
3. At the DOS prompt, type the commands below that are in CAPS exactly, 
and press enter at the end of each line: 
4. CD \WINDOWS\SYSTEM
5. DEL SKA.EXE   (Note: If you get a File Not Found error, either you 
are not infected or this file is located somewhere else on your 
computer.)
6. DEL SKA.DLL
7. COPY WSOCK32.SKA WSOCK32.DLL
8. Answer "Yes" if it asks if you want to overwrite WSOCK32.DLL. 
Explanation: WSOCK32.SKA is a backup of the original WSOCK32.DLL 
made by the virus. You are replacing the modified DLL with the 
original. 
9. Return to Windows by typing EXIT

If upon rebooting, Windows displays an error message that it cannot 
find SKA.exe, continue with the steps below.  Note: Using the Registry 
Editor incorrectly can lead to serious problems in Microsoft Windows 
and Windows applications.  Erols/RCN Internet assumes no responsibility 
for mistakes or errors that result of incorrectly using the Registry 
Editor. 

1. Click Start | Run, then type regedit and click OK. 
2. Click at the + to the left of HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE
3. Click at the + to the left of Software
4. Click at the + to the left of Microsoft
5. Click at the + to the left of Windows
6. Click at the + to the left of CurrentVersion. 
7. Look under the following folders: Run, RunOnce, RunOnceEx, 
RunServices, RunServicesOnce. Check for SKA.EXE and select it if it 
is there.  Hit the Delete key. 
8. Close Regedit. 

There is a file that keeps track of anyone you may have inadvertently 
sent that file to.  It is called: LISTE.SKA and you can find it under  
C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM\LISTE.SKA 

-------------------------------------
WORMS? I'VE ONLY HEARD ABOUT VIRUSES!
-------------------------------------
Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary defines a worm as: "a usually small 
self-contained computer program that invades computers on a network and 
usually performs a malicious action." 

--------------------------
SO WHAT DOES THIS WORM DO?
--------------------------
The Happy99.exe is more of a nuisance than a threat.  It doesn't delete 
any files on your computer.  It doesn't open a "back door" into your 
computer (as our next TIP describes).  Basically, every time you send 
an e-mail or post to a newsgroup, you send a copy of the worm to the 
recipients of your message.  And if they run the program, they get 
infected and then their messages will send out the worm, and so on.

For more information, visit the sites below:
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2208275,00.html

http://beta.nai.com/public/datafiles/valerts/vinfo/w32ska.htm

http://www.anchordesk.com/a/adt0215nk/3093.html

http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Heights/3652/SKA.HTM


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 11:02:48 1999
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'Christie A. Wood'" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>, Bungi
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:02:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.824.0>
Precedence: bulk

When I first saw the picture in a catalog (forget which one, Charles W.) of 
a circle cutter, the circle was all scored and there were lines in the 
waste glass running perp to the circle score. Being new and having been 
taught to score around and off and then around again. I could not imagine 
how this score could be released without breaking the circle in half. And 
then I tried it myself, without the circle cutter. Worked great, no little 
nibs like I got the other way.

Linda

-----Original Message-----
From:	Christie A. Wood [SMTP:Ensembles@compuserve.com]
Sent:	Thursday, February 25, 1999 11:08 AM
To:	Bungi
Subject:	Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)

They are 2 separate score lines used to create one curve.
That's the way I was taught.  Thank you ever so much for
describing the alternate method whereby you score the
entire curve, then go back and add in releaf scores.  I shall
try that method.  This bungi group is great, n'est pas?

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 11:44:55 1999
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From: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
Subject: Fwd: respiratiors  stained glass
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:48:35 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.184835.0>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_919968517_boundary
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I copied this inforamtion from one of the letters and realized after deleting
original that there was no brand name.  I am interested in P100 but who makes
it who sells it and how much does it cost?

THANKS FOR ANY INFORMATION ANY ONE MAY HAVE  Shirley G


> > The only respirators you should use for soldering should be the N100,=
 the
> > R100 or the P100.  The N100 and the R100 should only be used about 8
> > consecutive hours.  The P100 can be used until it looks bad, is damag=
ed, or
> > you sense it is harder to breathe through than when new.
> >

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From: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
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To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Subject: respiratiors  stained glass
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:19:45 EST
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> > The only respirators you should use for soldering should be the N100,=
 the
> > R100 or the P100.  The N100 and the R100 should only be used about 8
> > consecutive hours.  The P100 can be used until it looks bad, is damag=
ed, or
> > you sense it is harder to breathe through than when new.
> >

--part0_919968517_boundary--
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 12:03:55 1999
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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Shakeel <shakeel@tm.net.my>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:05:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.6553.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.42359.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi, I'm about to purchase a used Microwave kiln.. does anybody have one of
these??
Or does anybody know anything about them???
thanks Laura

Shakeel wrote:

> >Dear K
> >
> >Check out the Jen-Ken kilns sold by Marty Daily at Center DeVerre
> >
> >http://www.cdvkiln.com/
> >
> >Marty sells to glass artists at prices considerable below retail (an even
> >some wholesale) prices.
> >
> >Elizabeth Johnson
> >dmj@cyberportal.net
>
> Dear K
>
> Elizabeth is very right. I can vouch for that. Marty has some of the best
> prices for kilns
>
> Warm Regards
>
> Shakeel Abedi
>
> shakeel@tm.net.my
> Rainbow Stained Glass
> 104, Jalan Mersing
> 86000 Kluang
> Malaysia
> Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 12:43:31 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:10:14 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.41014.0>
References: <<199902250034.QAA23217@oceanus.island.net>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Sorry everyone, but I would, soldering is the only thing I really like
to do.  And not to have to foil, whoopie!!!!!!
Shirley B

Carol Swann wrote:
> 
> >They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
> >already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
> >is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
> >All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
> >they are produced in China using below-market
> >wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
> >the market.
> 
> Good grief...open package, add water...and presto...an instant lamp.  What
> on earth will they think of next?  Someone must have found out that they can
> cut and foil more lamps than they can solder overseas...I can't imagine that
> these would catch on over here, or that any retail places would actually
> carry them, preferring instead to make money with classes???
> 
> People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
> presto instant things, would they?
> 
> C.
> 
> Carol Swann
> Synergy Glass & Creative
> http://www.igga.org/synergy
> seaspray@island.net
> 
> check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
> http://come.to/The_E-Tour
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 13:14:02 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:34:09 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.4349.0>
References: <<1999Feb25.131236.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Let me clarify my last statement.
I don't make stuff for my personel use, if I did then yes from scratch.
I make stuff for craft shows.  And I am sure if some of the glass is
dull, I would recut it.  But think of the time you would save, making
production peices.  Plus you are doing the soldering, therefore the
construction would be good.
As for supporting slave labor, that one is hard to justify.  But, I will
say this, when I am done at the end of the year and figure out my real
profit.  I have made about $2/hr.  Now before you all get in a huff. I
sell my products at a good price,that does not cheapen the market and I
am only aming at supplimenting my income and keeping busy.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 13:32:00 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Shirley's List" <glass@intrastar.net>, "L Nelson" <t6686@netusa1.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:31:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.4312.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Hi, I'm about to purchase a used Microwave kiln.. does anybody have
one of
these??
Or does anybody know anything about them???
thanks Laura<<

I have one with a three inch round firing chamber. Works great. Fires
projects in about four minutes when used in a 1000 watt microwave
oven. I like to fuse on ceramic fiber shelf paper.

Due to the small size of the kiln most projects less than 1/4" thick
will not have a problem with cracking from annealing stress. Also
devritification is not a problem due to the fast firing rate.

I also have had some success with fusing SOME incompatable glass but
can not explain it. Do some experminting. Enjoy your micro kiln- they
are a kick.

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 13:43:17 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Cle
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:01:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.5110.0>
References: <<199902251230_MC2-6BC7-3D53@compuserve.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:
> >
> > Now can anyone make a suggestion as to what I should buy!!? There is a glut
> > of products on the market & was hoping for help in this most important
> > purchase. >  Thanks,
> > K See ....holding my breath in DC metro area.
> 
> The problem is there is not one product for all stained glass artists.  It
> depends on the configuration of your studio--its size, where windows and
> doors are, how its heated, etc., the size of the projects you usually work
> on, the materials and processes you use--solder, fluxes, patinas, etches,
> grinding glass, etc.
> 
> There is one company that I often end up using.  Nederman (313/729-3344)
> makes some flexible duct HEPA systems for artists studios that will work for
> lead fume.  But you need to really look carefully at the systems.  They may
> not work for you.
> 
> We get 35 inquiries/day here and often people are asking advice about a
> particular piece of equipment or a ventilation problem.  You are welcome.
> 
> I think I feel a tirade coming on:  The real problem with this thread is that
> people want a bottom line--short answers to questions and what to buy.  I
> understand that.  But what you all really need to do is study your craft.
> And that takes an investment in time.
> 
> You need to learn about your process so you know what gets airborne. You
> need to understand the various types of toxic substances created and which
> are most and which are least hazardous.  You need to read about ventilation
> and filtration principles so no one can take advantage of you when you do
> purchase something.
> 
> ANd my criticism goes most strongly to the teachers of stained glass.
> No stained glass student should ever complete that first class without being
> taught this information.  And no class in stained glass should be taught
> without all the right ventilation equipment for the process already in place
> in the classroom.  To teach any other way is unethical.
> 
> There.  I feel better.
> 
> Monona Rossol
> 181 Thompson St., # 23
> New York NY 10012-2586   212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 14:03:19 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: New member
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:57:20 -0500
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Hi everyone,  just thought I'd pop in to say hi.  I'm looking forward to
participating.  You can't know too many glass people!

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 14:13:04 1999
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From: Charles Spitzer <charles_spitzer@stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:33:35
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990225143335.00b3c480@atlas2.az.stratus.com>
Precedence: bulk

i'd really like to find one of these. if anyone has a line on them, please
let me know.

also, i would assume you wouldn't want to do this in your kitchen with your
everyday microwave.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

>Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:05:53 -0800
>Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
>Sender: t6686@netusa1.net
>From: t6686@netusa1.net
>To: shakeel@tm.net.my
>
>Hi, I'm about to purchase a used Microwave kiln.. does anybody have one of
>these??
>Or does anybody know anything about them???
>thanks Laura

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 14:50:27 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Revisited this site.
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:55:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.55553.0>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I was cleaning up my mail, when I ran accross this site(thank you Dale
Bentley).  Check out page 16, it shows a rather large window done
entirely in copper foil.
And Howard, I think even you would be impressed with his lamps.
http://www.tcp-ip.or.jp/~itashiro/index.html
Enjoy.
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 15:50:53 1999
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Subject: NG:Upgrade Warning
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:45:11 EST
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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From: JGriffi276@aol.com
Return-path: <JGriffi276@aol.com>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Subject: Upgrade Warning
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:23:55 EST
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UPGRADE WARNING

Tech Support Request

Last year I upgraded from GIRLFRIEND 6.1 to WIFE 1.0 and noticed that shortly
thereafter the new program began to experience unexpected child processing.
This took up a lot of time, space and valuable resources.  No mention of this
 phenomenon was included in the product brochure.  

In addition, WIFE 1.0 installs itself into all of my other programs, which
launches during system initialization where it monitors other systems
activity.  Applications such as Poker Night 10.3, Beer Bash 2.5, and even Boys
Night Out 22.5 are no longer able to run; crashing the system whenever
selected.  It even locked up during NFL 4.6, and when I rebooted. "Touched by
an Angel" was on my Desktop. 

I cannot seem to purge WIFE 1.0 from my system.  I am thinking about going
back to GIRLFRIEND 6.1 but I cannot get uninstall to work on this program. Can
you help me?
Jonathan Barker

Recommendation
Dear Mr. Barker:
This is a very common problem men complain about but is mostly due to a
primary misunderstanding of the program itself.  Many men upgrade from the
GIRLFRIEND software to WIFE 1.0 with the idea that this new system operates as
a
BASIC UTILITIES & ENTERTAINMENT program,  including more in the Entertainment
package.  As you have discovered, this is certainly not true.

WIFE 1.0 is an OPERATING SYSTEM and designed by the Creator to run
everything.  It is almost impossible to uninstall, delete, or purge this
program
from the system once installed. You cannot go back to GIRLFRIEND 6.1
because WIFE 1.0 has built in safeguards, which will not allow this.

Many have tried to pursue a GIRLFRIEND 7.0 or WIFE 2.0 but end up with more
problems than original system. I recommend you keep WIFE 1.0 and deal
with current situation.  That software is built to be User Friendly, however
it
is not very fault tolerant. [Note: Look for more details in your manual under
Warnings: Alimony, Child Support, Asset  Loss Divisions]

Having WIFE 1.0 installed on my own system, I might also suggest you read
the entire section regarding General Protection Faults (GPFs).  You must
assume responsibility for both your faults and problems that occur within
the system.  The best procedure when faults occur, and especially when WIFE
1.0 locks up the system is to push Apologize / Reset button [sometimes this
will entail you getting down on your knees, begging the system to work].  All
in all, WIFE 1.0 is a great program but is very high maintenance.

Your friend, Techie Support


--part0_919982711_boundary--
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 16:20:42 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: t6686@netusa1.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:39:52 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.73952.0>
References: <<36D60A17.A1FC87BD@netusa1.net>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Chistie Wood started it by asking about them.  I have never seen them.
However I have seen the ones done for stepping stones.  The glass is cut
in intricate peices, by a company that uses a water jet.  So no slave
labor there.
Maybe the Chinese have a water jet and our consciouses could be
clear!!!!
Shirley B

L Nelson wrote:
> 
> Hi, I guess I missed the beginning of these post were can a person find out about
> these kits?? or the price because I'm with you NO FOILING!!!
> Thanks laura
> 
> Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> > Sorry everyone, but I would, soldering is the only thing I really like
> > to do.  And not to have to foil, whoopie!!!!!!
> > Shirley B
> >
> > Carol Swann wrote:
> > >
> > > >They are lampshade kits in which the glass is
> > > >already cut and foiled.  Also included in the kit
> > > >is the mold upon which you build the lampshade.
> > > >All for not much money.  Which leads us to suspect
> > > >they are produced in China using below-market
> > > >wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
> > > >the market.
> > >
> > > Good grief...open package, add water...and presto...an instant lamp.  What
> > > on earth will they think of next?  Someone must have found out that they can
> > > cut and foil more lamps than they can solder overseas...I can't imagine that
> > > these would catch on over here, or that any retail places would actually
> > > carry them, preferring instead to make money with classes???
> > >
> > > People who are wanting to learn to make stained glass wouldn't want these
> > > presto instant things, would they?
> > >
> > > C.
> > >
> > > Carol Swann
> > > Synergy Glass & Creative
> > > http://www.igga.org/synergy
> > > seaspray@island.net
> > >
> > > check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
> > > http://come.to/The_E-Tour
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > --
> > x�>"3
�
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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�
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 16:43:03 1999
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X-Path: city-net.com!dany
From: "Daniela Birkelbach" <dany@city-net.com>
To: "B.Lierath" <Lierath@compuserve.com>, "List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:40:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.134036.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hallo Burkhard!

Here is another German (from Cologne) who is part of the international bungi
group.  I'm sure you and your wife will enjoy this list tremendously.
Herzlich Willkommen!

Daniela
http://www.city-net.com/~dany
-----Original Message-----
From: B.Lierath <Lierath@compuserve.com>
To: List <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 2:24 PM
Subject: New member of the group


>
>Hi group,
>
>May I introduce myself? My name is Burkhard Lierath
>and I am living in Berlin, Germany
>And you will find out soon enough, that English is not  my
>natural language, but I can bring my message across.
>(At least most of the time)
>Of course I like to work with glass!
>I am married and my wife Elisabeth is owning a little studio.
>She has regular opening times and beside working with
>glass, we do sell glass and tools etc. The income is still
>not enough to make a decent living, but we survive.
>In addition to flatglass work, we do fusing, pate de verre
>and also sandblasting in addition to other things.
>Elisabeth is giving classes on regular basis, but mostly
>she is working for customers.
>Dont get me wrong! We are still kind of amateurs because
>we feel, that it will take long years to master an art.
>If workload is low, we go to classes and seminars ourself and =
>
>of course, we experiment a lot. (Sometimes with success)
>This should be enough for a first mail. We will look into
>the mailbox on regualar intervalls and will return incoming
>e-mails within a week. (Most times within 2 days)
>
>Best regards from the City of Berlin,
>
>Burkhard
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 18:02:44 1999
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X-Path: mail.megsinet.net!pjnelson
From: Paula Nelson <uitland@glassdogstudio.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:39:13 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.123913.0>
Precedence: bulk

>Which leads us to suspect
>they are produced in China using below-market
>wages.  Seems Chinese glass is now flooding
>the market.

In 1994 I ordered several lamps for my gift venture in an antique/gift
mall. The gentleman that runs the company I ordered from, has the last name
of Tiffany and uses that to his benefit. I went to their outlet in the
Chicago Merchandise Mart - liked what I saw and when I recieved the
shipment I asked them why it took so long for it to arrive. Turns out....
they were re working their factory... in China. I thought about that awhile
and I have all the lamps to this day. I can imagine what the daily pay rate
is there and I decided I didn't want to contribute to the situation. The
glass is inferior to what I purchase for my own work... and so I can
imagine what is coming in these kits.  



Paula Nelson
pjnelson@glassdogstudio.com

http://www.glassdogstudio.com/TGDS.htm
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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 18:22:46 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Glass holder
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:14:20 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.71420.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just wanted to mention - Lee Valley Tools (www.leevalley.com) carries a
super-high friction tape.  Higher friction than Dycem or other no-slip
surfaces.  In fact it may be too high friction for many applications.  But
when you truely do not want something to slip on a surface at all, this is
the stuff you want.

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 19:43:26 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "Suzanne" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>,
Subject: New E-mail address
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:21:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.162113.0>
Precedence: bulk

My ISP sold/went belly up, who knows and I have spend the last 4 hours,
trying to get things set up on the computer.  We finally have it working, I
think.

Anyhow here we go.

Linda Jo Letcher is now at e-mail address:
andor@ilnk.com

Later, LJ


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 20:16:58 1999
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From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
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Subject: subscribe
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:53:43 -0500
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andor@ilnk.com


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 21:09:56 1999
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X-Path: sk.sympatico.ca!dbarker
From: D Barker <dbarker@sk.sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: glass cements & glues
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:50:45 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.155045.0>
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Greetings, fellow glass artists.

My name is Dawn Barker, and I'm a married, 33 year old mother of 3/gym
coach & choreographer/glass artist/homemaker/herbalist/astrology
nut/gardener.  And a muddle-minded Piscean, with several planets in the
12th house. (Yes, it does make for a rather busy and confusing
existence).  I've been doing stained glass, on and off, for 18 years
now, and have made pieces with copper foil, leading, patio stone
technique and mosaic.   I live in rural Saskatchewan, Canada, in a town
of only 500 people. (In fact, I've got mail addressed only to:  Dawn,
Arcola, Sask..   No kidding! )

The lady I learned from was a Dutch artist, who used (among the others)
a technique of mosaic in which glass was fitted quite snugly and then
cemented in place with a special glass epoxy which turned opaque when
dried.  I seem to remember that it came in a white pail, about 1/2
gallon size, from the U.S.  Unfortunately, I was unable to get the name
of the stuff before she moved.  (The consistency was a lot like mixed
Diamond Crete, without the grit, but that doesn't work.  I know.  I've
tried.)  I really didn't try too hard to get it either, cause I was
'into' copper foil method at the time. *sigh*

I've used 5 minute epoxy in small suncatchers since, and it works well,
but she had done larger pieces (over a foot square) with this stuff, and
I really can't see cleaning up a whole foot of glass... the cleanup with
the 5 minute kind is really sort of exhausting!  :  )

Another thing I was wondering about... my parents have a big old pottery
kiln that I'd like to try to slump glass in... if I can.  Is this
possible, or will I just end up making as big a mess as in the 70s when
I ironed one of my cool rayon shirts on "high" with their iron? *cringe*
I can still smell that baby... That is to say... does one have to have a
special 'glass kiln' or can one use a pottery one?

Thanks all for your help!

Dawn

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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 22:21:51 1999
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X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Glass Sites I Found
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:44:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.194445.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thanks Linda for the sites...I had fun surfing to a few new places...rather
than my usual round of sites...

The Mermaid panel at Gilbertson's Stained Glass is now my wallpaper on the
computer!!
It is simply gorgous...I can't wait for my little one to see it in the
morning..she's four and loves mermaids.  Thank-you for her as well!  (I only
hope she doens't ask, "Momy, can you make me one?" lol)

Take Care,
Soraya

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Soraya may reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Soraya's Witches' Thicket t....
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Man must go back to nature for information. --Thomas Paine


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From owner-glass Thu Feb 25 23:22:46 1999
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From: Suzanne <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: MD6868@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:37:47 -0600
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Precedence: bulk

> Although we are both of Irish descent, I am of the lace curtain
> variety, and he is definitely "shanty Irish". Since your first post was
> largely biographical, perhaps he won't bother you for a biography, and you'll
> be spared.  Welcome, and enjoy
> 
> Richard


Wow!  If you are the lace variety, and Patrick is of the Shanty
variety...I am really curious what the *lace* variety wear!! ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne
-- 
"Winning isn't always finishing first. 
Sometimes winning is just finishing."
Manuel Diotte
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 00:48:00 1999
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X-Path: tm.net.my!shakeel
From: "Shakeel" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dynasty Lamp Kits / Spectrum Glass
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:14:44 +0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.231444.0>
Precedence: bulk

To K See, et al

There is one slight misinformation reagarding the precut lamp kits that I
would like to clarify.

The kit contents:
Precut and foiled glass pieces. (Both of very inferior quality)
Pattern
Vase cap &
A thin black plastic mold (for one use only)

Now the kits are being marketed by the name of Dynasty kits by Daimond Tech
International and NOT by Spectrum Glass Company. Spectrum is now selling
some clear glass which is made in China. But they have nothing to do with
the kits.

To find out more about the kits visit:

http://www.dticrafts.com/

I really have no qualms or objections for these kits. I am only unhappy
about the quality of work and the fact that they were made in China was
never anywhere mentioned. My main point is if I want something from China I
will get it from there, and not U.S.

I would even support such precut kits if the were of good quality glass and
workmaship.
Take the scenario: I am busy with a big panel and I am a one man show, I
have a deadline to meet and a friend comes and says, "Hey Shakeel, I need a
lamp for my wife's birthday two weeks from now." I can't say because
getting one made will be delaying my work, and I can't say no because he is
a good friend and customer" Dynasty would have helped me in such tight
corner. But sadly, I have made the lamp from the kit I got and and have
kept on show. Now I tell my customers, this is why you pay me extra, this
is what you get if you want it cheap" Sitting next to the Chestnut lamp I
made from Spectrum and Kokomo glass it IS a VERY convicing line.

Warm Regards

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 01:17:31 1999
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From: "Shakeel" <shakeel@tm.net.my>
To: <SGriffiSBG@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG:Upgrade Warning
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:12:19 +0800
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That was a good one. Enjoyed it!

Shakeel Abedi

shakeel@tm.net.my
Rainbow Stained Glass
104, Jalan Mersing
86000 Kluang
Malaysia
Tel: +607-7722212, 7729489  Fax: +607-7733313
>UPGRADE WARNING
>
>Tech Support Request
>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 01:36:21 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Shirley's List" <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:14:46 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb25.151446.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Hi, I am getting the kiln so that I can fuse (melt) two pcs. of
glass
together I thought you could place one on top of the other and melt
them
together am I way off????  I don't know anything about kilns And I
didn't
think this threw I am going to have to get a microwave now to use in
the
shop.. I'm new to this whole stained glass thing.. so any suggestions
would be helpful thanks Laura<<

Yes, you can stack two pieces of glass and fuse them together. There
is (was) a book or two expressly for the microwave kilns. Must be out
of print by now but you can do a search. Cann't seem to find mine.

These kilns came out about 1991 and after a couple of years were
dropped from my catalogs. Someone said it was because they were made
of asbestos but I think they are made of ceramic fiber. They are hard
to come by now. My Micro-Kiln EZ-5 was made by LVR Products, Inc.,
Gardenia, CA.

I will forward the two pages of instructions, as attachments, to you
and anyone else that requests them from ME (not the list). These
instructions are for the kiln only and you would be well advised to
get a text on glass fusing . My all time favorate is "Warm Glass" by
Shar Moreland. Out of print but available on back order from
Amazon.com at last check.

One of the precautions reads, "Always clean the inside of your
microwave oven after using the MICRO-KILN EZ-5 and before using your
microwave oven for food preparation." I have never found any visual
residue in my microwave after using it to fuse in. I would be
concerned if I used the kiln for toxic glass paints. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 02:21:42 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:10:44 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.91044.0>
Precedence: bulk

Uncle Bob

My turn to be dumb - again!

Was that bit about cleaning a microwave oven after fusing a joke?

If not does that mean I can fuse in my kitchen mw?

You know I believe everything you tell me Bob!

Tired, confused and befuddled

BtB

->
>One of the precautions reads, "Always clean the inside of your
>microwave oven after using the MICRO-KILN EZ-5 and before using your
>microwave oven for food preparation." I have never found any visual
>residue in my microwave after using it to fuse in. I would be
>concerned if I used the kiln for toxic glass paints. Bob
>







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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 06:37:35 1999
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X-Path: ll.mit.edu!cogen
From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:49:29 -0500
Message-ID: <199902261341.IAA04974@ll.mit.edu>
Precedence: bulk

> i'd really like to find one of these. if anyone has a line on them, please
> let me know.

I hear they are no longer manufactured. I guess they figured they were too
dangerous and were afraid of lawsuits.

> also, i would assume you wouldn't want to do this in your kitchen with your
> everyday microwave

This may be why they decided to stop making them. How many are going to be
able to resist the temptation to use their everyday microwave, promising
themselves that they'll buy a dedicated microwave "soon".

-- DavidC
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 08:37:41 1999
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From: MD6868@aol.com
To: gunnx4@ix.netcom.com
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Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:59:49 EST
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Suzanne,
	I'm surprised you needed to ask!  Lace curtains, what else !! 

Richard
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 09:09:12 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:08:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.6857.0>
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Message text written by "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)"
>I found
in some cases the foil was coming up off the glass as I was foiling.
The only thing I could think of (after I realized I hadn't put any of
the pieces to the grinder) was that the edges were too "clean" from not
being on the grinder and the foil wasn't sticking.  What do you think?<

A couple of people have reported foil not sticking very well
to certain types of glass.  So far I have used Youghigheny
ripple, Wissmach glue chip, and Vasa clear textured, all of
which took the foil quite nicely.  Types of foil used: Venture
3/16" 1 mil black-backed, Ecco 7/32" 1.5 mil black-backed,
and Venture 1/4" 1.5 mil copper.  So...maybe there are certain
types of glass in which the foil doesn't stick to un-ground
edges, but so far I haven't hit upon that combination.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 09:30:39 1999
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From: Swinger <dayle@cyberbeach.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:15:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.61520.0>
References: <<1999Feb25.4349.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I could never in good conscience be able to bring one of these Dynasty lamp
kits to a craft show and sell it as one of my own.  What kind of a craft
show would allow the use of patterns and kits?
If they are used for this purpose I think they undermine the efforts of
those who are trying to make a living doing stained glass.  There's no easy
way to increase your profits.  You have to put in the work.  If after a year
you find that you've only made about $2/hr then there must be something
wrong with your pricing policy.  You shouldn't be working for nothing,
you're devaluing your own work.  If you have a good product, the people who
appreciate it will be willing to pay what it's worth.   Am I being  too
harsh?


Shirley Balloch wrote:

> Let me clarify my last statement.
> I don't make stuff for my personel use, if I did then yes from scratch.
> I make stuff for craft shows.  And I am sure if some of the glass is
> dull, I would recut it.  But think of the time you would save, making
> production peices.  Plus you are doing the soldering, therefore the
> construction would be good.
> As for supporting slave labor, that one is hard to justify.  But, I will
> say this, when I am done at the end of the year and figure out my real
> profit.  I have made about $2/hr.  Now before you all get in a huff. I
> sell my products at a good price,that does not cheapen the market and I
> am only aming at supplimenting my income and keeping busy.
> Shirley B
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 10:10:56 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: "M. Savad" <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:19:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.71924.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.6857.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Christie A. Wood wrote:
> 
> Message text written by "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)"
> >I found
> in some cases the foil was coming up off the glass as I was foiling.
> The only thing I could think of (after I realized I hadn't put any of
> the pieces to the grinder) was that the edges were too "clean" from not
> being on the grinder and the foil wasn't sticking.  What do you think?<
> 
> A couple of people have reported foil not sticking very well
> to certain types of glass.  So far I have used Youghigheny
> ripple, Wissmach glue chip, and Vasa clear textured, all of
> which took the foil quite nicely.  Types of foil used: Venture
> 3/16" 1 mil black-backed, Ecco 7/32" 1.5 mil black-backed,
> and Venture 1/4" 1.5 mil copper.  So...maybe there are certain
> types of glass in which the foil doesn't stick to un-ground
> edges, but so far I haven't hit upon that combination.
> 
> Christie A. Wood
> Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
> P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
> http://www.igga.org/wood/
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


glass is glass, foil will stick to it. it depends on what the texture is
though. if it's a heavy ripple, it's going to flare more. and one side
of the foil (rippled side), won't have alot of contact with the glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 10:29:27 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:06:39 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.1639.0>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

such as I work...rather slowly....I cut out almost all the pieces for my
kitty clock...am so pleased that my cutting skills seem to not have
deteriorated in the couple of years since I have actually done a project
(as opposed to accumulating pattern books for "someday"). I only broke
one tip off of one piece and had to redo...everything else came out real
nice...if anything I think I will have less grinding than I had on the
two projects I made in the class...everything seems to fit together real
nice...I think it helped I used foil shears to cut out the pattern....
all I have to do now is some itsy bitsy filler pieces, some of which the
woman at the store told me I would be "wise" to combine into one larger
piece rather than trying to go for the detail in the pattern. I should
be grinding by tomorrow...never used my grinder before....
dumb confession of the day: I decided to cut "just one more piece" on a
trip into my workroom/office to do something on the computer...I was
barefoot...now am faced with removing an itsy bitsy sliver from my
foot...ugh...just goes to show you, you think you can get away with it
"just this once" and it'll get ya every time.....
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 11:16:31 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:32:57 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.23257.0>
Precedence: bulk

Brian!

Yes, I have used my kitchen microwave to fuse in. Heck I've even done
it in the bedroom. I have used my microwave kiln off and on over a
period of about seven years for prehaps 200 firings. It is as good as
new except that I plugged the peep hole in the top and drilled one in
the side so I could see in when the kiln is in the oven.

I must admit that over the past seven years I have experienced an
increasing number of health problems. My hair has turned gray and I
have gained weight. I have even been thinking of getting the doctor to
give me some pills to increase my youthful viggor but my lady friend
thinks that is a bad idea and I don't know if my heart would take the
increased strain.

Right now I need to get my glasses perscription checked and my left
elbow hurts like he**. It has been bothering me for about seven years
now. Perhaps I should see the doctor about that too.

Bob (who only lies when he wants to)

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Shepherd <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: Kiln for slumping & fusing


>Uncle Bob
>
>My turn to be dumb - again!
>
>Was that bit about cleaning a microwave oven after fusing a joke?
>
>If not does that mean I can fuse in my kitchen now?
>
>You know I believe everything you tell me Bob!
>
>Tired, confused and befuddled
>
>BtB
>
>->
>>One of the precautions reads, "Always clean the inside of your
>>microwave oven after using the MICRO-KILN EZ-5 and before using your
>>microwave oven for food preparation." I have never found any visual
>>residue in my microwave after using it to fuse in. I would be
>>concerned if I used the kiln for toxic glass paints. Bob
>>


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 11:44:57 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: Swinger <dayle@cyberbeach.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:42:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.24253.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.61520.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

No your are not being too harsh.
I suspect you have never done craft shows.  Until you find the right
ones and believe me that takes research, you have a lot of shows that
cost you money to do.  They all eat into the overall profits.  I think
it takes about 3 years to get it right. Anyway I certainly hope so,
cause this is my 4th year!  Even then a good show can be rained
out(literally).
Craft shows do not necessarily mean orginial, they mean you had to do it
yourself by hand.  And I can assure you that I have been to quality
juried shows, that have allowed vendors with third world country's
machine made items.
I have never made a lamp and have no intention of ever making one other
than the prairie style.  And I can't think of anything that is
comparable as to premade pieces in another craft.
But craft shows are production work. Clear and simple and anything to
lessen the time(if the quality is good)sounds good to me.
Shirley B

Swinger wrote:
> 
> I could never in good conscience be able to bring one of these Dynasty lamp
> kits to a craft show and sell it as one of my own.  What kind of a craft
> show would allow the use of patterns and kits?
> If they are used for this purpose I think they undermine the efforts of
> those who are trying to make a living doing stained glass.  There's no easy
> way to increase your profits.  You have to put in the work.  If after a year
> you find that you've only made about $2/hr then there must be something
> wrong with your pricing policy.  You shouldn't be working for nothing,
> you're devaluing your own work.  If you have a good product, the people who
> appreciate it will be willing to pay what it's worth.   Am I being  too
> harsh?
> 
> Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> > Let me clarify my last statement.
> > I don't make stuff for my personel use, if I did then yes from scratch.
> > I make stuff for craft shows.  And I am sure if some of the glass is
> > dull, I would recut it.  But think of the time you would save, making
> > production peices.  Plus you are doing the soldering, therefore the
> > construction would be good.
> > As for supporting slave labor, that one is hard to justify.  But, I will
> > say this, when I am done at the end of the year and figure out my real
> > profit.  I have made about $2/hr.  Now before you all get in a huff. I
> > sell my products at a good price,that does not cheapen the market and I
> > am only aming at supplimenting my income and keeping busy.
> > Shirley B
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 11:47:26 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Cle
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:43:18 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.24318.0>
References: <<199902261147_MC2-6BED-1FA9@compuserve.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> Shirley B wrote:
> 
> > I think you are right, this is a good thread for bungian's.
> > Can you recommend a good book for starters, or a web site to visit?
> > Thanks in advance. <
> 
> We have a website, but it is just to help people find us.  The Center for
> Safety in the Arts I think still has one, but I don't know what it is since I
> don't surf.
> 
> I've written six books, but the one that would be most applicable and
> available now is:
> 
> *The Artist's Complete Health & Safety Guide.* It covers the laws,
> toxicology, hazards, precautions for most arts and crafts including stained
> glass. It is available in some art stores (who have the courage), but there
> is a credit card order at: 800/491-2808  It cost $19.95 plus $3.00
> postage/handling
> 
> I also have a three page data sheet that condenses the hazards of stained
> glass and provides a list of precautions.  While ACTS charges $0.25/page for
> copying/mailing, we usually just send it free to those who ask for it.  I'd
> be glad to do this for Bungi as long as the numbers are something we can
> handle.  ACTS is a small non-profit that survives primarily on earned income
> from lectures, courses, OSHA training, consults, etc..  So far we have done
> well enough that we have been able to maintain our policy of not soliciting
> funds from individuals.  We figure if we are serving artists, we are probably
> serving the poor.
> 
> What this means is that people who ask for stuff from us are not going to
> get those mailings that most non-profits send out once they have your name.
> 
> Another data sheet that should be of interest to teachers is a "Rationale for
> banning lead in public schools."   I think it is 3 or 4 pages, too.  I
> really think anyone who teaches using lead in any way in a high school or
> college should know just how many laws they are violating and how
> undefensible it is if the issue comes before the courts or if the public gets
> involved.
> 
> Anyway, its better to read the legal bad news in a data sheet that listen to
> it later in public place where there are 12 people sitting in a box.
> 
> The best manual I wrote on the subject is out of print.  It was briefly
> distributed by Professional Stained Glass mag before they went down for the
> count.  It was an OSHA right to know training manual.  It started out with
> the requirements of the law and general technical information on air quality
> standards, toxicology, etc.  The rest of the ring binder was divided into
> sections.  The first was on Solders which discussed all the hazards and
> precautions for using solders and was followed by 15 or 20 material safety
> data sheets for common solders used at that time.  Other sections were on
> fluxes, patinas, glass paints, cleaners etc.
> 
> Every business that has employees is required to have a written right to know
> or hazard communication program.  All employers had to do to meet the laws
> back then was to add any MSDSs they use that are not in the book, etc. The
> manual also could be used for worker training.
> 
> Maybe someone has some ideas about how we could update this manual for
> stained glass users today.
> 
> Monona Rossol
> 181 Thompson St., # 23
> New York NY 10012-2586   212/777-0062

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X-Path: netusa1.net!t6686
From: L Nelson <t6686@netusa1.net>
To: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:04:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.642.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.1639.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,  do you cut out pattern pcs. and glue them on glass and then cut I have
not tried this yet I have a really hard time getting my pcs. to fit together
usually there are big gaps..thanks laura

Elizabeth Arakelian wrote:

> such as I work...rather slowly....I cut out almost all the pieces for my
> kitty clock...am so pleased that my cutting skills seem to not have
> deteriorated in the couple of years since I have actually done a project
> (as opposed to accumulating pattern books for "someday"). I only broke
> one tip off of one piece and had to redo...everything else came out real
> nice...if anything I think I will have less grinding than I had on the
> two projects I made in the class...everything seems to fit together real
> nice...I think it helped I used foil shears to cut out the pattern....
> all I have to do now is some itsy bitsy filler pieces, some of which the
> woman at the store told me I would be "wise" to combine into one larger
> piece rather than trying to go for the detail in the pattern. I should
> be grinding by tomorrow...never used my grinder before....
> dumb confession of the day: I decided to cut "just one more piece" on a
> trip into my workroom/office to do something on the computer...I was
> barefoot...now am faced with removing an itsy bitsy sliver from my
> foot...ugh...just goes to show you, you think you can get away with it
> "just this once" and it'll get ya every time.....
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 12:18:45 1999
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From: Elizabeth Arakelian <glshorse@ior.com>
To: t6686@netusa1.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:06:46 -0800
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References: <<36D71A52.B698401D@netusa1.net>>
Organization: Elizabeth Arakelian
Precedence: bulk

L Nelson wrote:
> 
> Hi,  do you cut out pattern pcs. and glue them on glass and then cut I have
> not tried this yet I have a really hard time getting my pcs. to fit together
> usually there are big gaps..thanks laura
> 
  what I do is I use masking tape...very small pieces folded over...I
have also seen people use a spray adhesive....not sure if you get it in
a glass store...I saw some in a horse mag which is intended for (I kid
you not) giving peoples butts some grip in the saddle...doubt I'd ever
use it for that purpose..seems too hokey to me...but at the time I saw
it my first thought was "glass adhesive" I also have some double sided
tape which I got at a glass supplier...it is a pain to remove the
backing from though. as for the cutting...practice practice practice...I
try to groze off as much as I can but I sort of have a sense of when to
stop while I am ahead if I think I am going to break the piece getting
just a tiny bit more off...I figure better to grind a little more than
lose the piece. Hope this helps.
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 12:36:28 1999
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X-Path: cros.net!soraya
From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Have my bio...now....
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:32:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.93225.0>
Precedence: bulk

Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more about
me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's email
addy.

Can someone help??

Take Care,
Soraya

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Soraya may reached at...
soraya@cros.net
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Soraya's Witches' Thicket at....
http://www.cros.net/soraya
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Man must go back to nature for information. --Thomas Paine


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 12:49:45 1999
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From: Swinger <dayle@cyberbeach.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Fwd: Dynasty kits using Chinese imports
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:59:15 -0500
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Shirley Balloch wrote:

> No your are not being too harsh.
> I suspect you have never done craft shows.  Until you find the right
> ones and believe me that takes research, you have a lot of shows that
> cost you money to do.  They all eat into the overall profits.  I think
> it takes about 3 years to get it right. Anyway I certainly hope so,
> cause this is my 4th year!  Even then a good show can be rained
> out(literally).
> Craft shows do not necessarily mean orginial, they mean you had to do i=
t
> yourself by hand.  And I can assure you that I have been to quality
> juried shows, that have allowed vendors with third world country's
> machine made items.
> I have never made a lamp and have no intention of ever making one other
> than the prairie style.  And I can't think of anything that is
> comparable as to premade pieces in another craft.
> But craft shows are production work. Clear and simple and anything to
> lessen the time(if the quality is good)sounds good to me.
> Shirley B
>

Well Shirley, I do attend craft shows, in fact I make my living doing sta=
ined
glass.  My feeling is if you attend the juried shows that don't allow pat=
terns or
kits, there you will find the really good stuff and the type of consumer =
that
appreciates it and is willing to pay for it.   It does take time to weed =
out the
bad shows though but once you've found a good one.....boy is it worth it!=
!  Make
and take your best stuff and in no time you'll develop a reputation which=
 will
bring you repeat customers and referrals.  This way you won't be working =
for $2/hr
but will be generating an income more deserving of your talents.

> ---
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
> --
> x=9F>"3=16=01=06=90=08



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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 14:18:04 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: foil not sticking was: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:48:11 -0800
Message-ID: <199902262048.MAA05970@oceanus.island.net>
Precedence: bulk

>A couple of people have reported foil not sticking very well
>to certain types of glass.  So far I have used Youghigheny
>ripple, Wissmach glue chip, and Vasa clear textured, all of
>which took the foil quite nicely.  Types of foil used: Venture
>3/16" 1 mil black-backed, Ecco 7/32" 1.5 mil black-backed,
>and Venture 1/4" 1.5 mil copper.  So...maybe there are certain

Actually Christie, I find it has more to do with the black back on the foil.
I rarely use it because I've consistently found that it doesn't stick as
well for me as the silver back (most used) or copper back (occasionally
used).  I've just done a bunch of foiling and found that copper back and
silver back 7/32 Venture stick just fine to unground Spectrum, unground glue
chip and unground Bullseye.  Don't have access to Yough at a reasonable
price and I'm not sure what Vasa is (architectural?).

My 2 cents worth...

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 14:47:03 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Bob lies
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:48:44 -0500
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Bob E Duchesneau wrote:

> ... I have even been thinking of getting the doctor to
> give me some pills to increase my youthful viggor but my lady friend
> thinks that is a bad idea and I don't know if my heart would take the
> increased strain.

Must be connected to the sig

> ...Bob (who only lies when he wants to)

You lie where?  (Maybe we should ask the lady friend)

Dorothy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 15:03:34 1999
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From: goldenlad@iname.com (Steve)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:13:15 GMT
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.221315.0>
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I'm trying to take apart and relead a panel and am having problems
taking the old lead off. The cement has formed a very hard joint
between the lead and the glass. Can cement be softened by application
of Linseed oil, (the panel is over 50 years old and I don't want to
risk breaking any of the painted glass).

Any tips on taking apart an old panel are greatly welcomed.

TIA
Steve
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 15:19:32 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
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Subject: Re: New member of the group
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:08:45 -0800 (PST)
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Welcome Burkhard.  It sounds like you will make a valuable contribution to
our group because of your varied experiences in glass, fusing and
sandblasting.  My name is Peggy and I have a stained glass studio in Santa
Maria, California.  I teach stained glass at the local air base and do
commissions for clients.  Lately I have been experimenting with fusing and
this can really be additive.  We will look forward to your comments.
Peggy

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 15:22:28 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:18:48 -0500
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Message text written by "Mike Savad"
>glass is glass, foil will stick to it. it depends on what the texture is=

though. if it's a heavy ripple, it's going to flare more. and one side
of the foil (rippled side), won't have alot of contact with the glass.<

Actually, the foil stuck quite well to the Youghiogheny ripple.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 15:39:07 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Patrick
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:18:56 -0500
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Message text written by "Soraya"
>...Patrick O'Tutu...<

ROTFL !   (Rolling On the Floor Laughing for all those who
don't know what that stands for.)

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 15:57:02 1999
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Cle
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:07:20 -0800
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Monona Rossol wrote:

>> I also have a three page data sheet that condenses the hazards of stained
>> glass and provides a list of precautions.  While ACTS charges $0.25/page for
>> copying/mailing, we usually just send it free to those who ask for it.  I'd
>> be glad to do this for Bungi as long as the numbers are something we can
>> handle.  ACTS is a small non-profit that survives primarily on earned income
>> from lectures, courses, OSHA training, consults, etc..  So far we have 

Maybe this could be made available electronically on bungi...one post to the
whole group at no charge for postage.  Or maybe Albert could put it up on
the igga site or something, again cost free to your group.  What say you,
Monona?  Please use a good descriptive subject line so it can be easily
found in people's email files.

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 16:14:09 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: show ?'s
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:14:03 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.4143.0>
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Although we like to think all of the art we show at Holtenwood Gallery is
"fine", I suspect many of the pretentious downtown galleries would disagree
that it was "fine art".  We are closer to a "crafts gallery".  Some of our
stuff even edges towards the "gift" category although it is all local,
quality and handmade.  Located in a remoter location we have to cater to a
wider range of clientele than would a city based gallery.

We do try to offer our artists a chance to show works that are perhaps more
of a stretch.  We do this by having a special "show" room where we put on
individual or group shows about four times a year.  The other three rooms
contain quite a range of art much of which probably does not quite fit the
"fine art" category.

I just wanted to let everyone know this so they understand my attitudes are
possibly very different from some other gallery owners.  Adriana and I feel
very strongly that art is for everybody and everybody should create art if
they want to.  Distinctions between "high art", "fine art", "low art",
"crafts" are all load of crap.  What is important is creative expression and
quality of workmanship.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Date: Saturday, February 20, 1999 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: show ?'s


>Very nice bit of input, Tim.  Would you consider contributing a
>write-up like this to Common Ground:Glass, the magazine for
>IGGA?  It's an interesting slant since most stained glass artists
>don't even consider approaching a fine art gallery....
etc...

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 16:23:48 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:32:19 -0800
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Oh, and just in case anyone thinks I'm some kind of superhuman for my
customer service policies, let me assure you all I have faults.  I always
think I can do more than I possibly can and I am always promising more than
I can possibly do.

Which is sort of a sideways notice to Albert.  Sorry, I have not sent the
stuff I promissed to email by Thursday.  It <may> be there Saturday <if we
are all lucky> :-)

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 16:29:39 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:03:38 -0800
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Oh, and as an addendum to my last message:

Of course, I also recognize that anything I make below a certain price range
(depending on size, technique, etc.) was not made to the same long term
standards.  I have to eat and the $20 to $100 dollar items pay the bills
most of time.  But for these items the standards are different.

I try to ensure any item in this range has my business card enclosed, but
beyond that it is up to the person buying it to get in touch with me if they
think they have a problem.  If they can not find me because I changed my
company name I guess in rare cases it could be a problem, but for a less
expensive item I don't think it is worth the effort.  They would probably
contact the store where they bought it anyway.


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 16:39:59 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:03:52 -0800
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I agree, it is absolutely critical for past clients to be able to get hold
of you.

There are only a few cases where I think changing my company name will cause
a problem.  In ALL cases where I have done the actual installation of a
piece, I keep the client name, address and phone number on record along with
any other important information.  If in the course of doing the work I found
the client had a son and daughter named John and Mindi or they loved cats,
that goes on the record too.

You can be damn sure I will be sending each of these people a card letting
them know of the change in name.  And if it was an important installation or
the person is a potential future important client (or even if I just plain
liked the person), you can be damn sure I will be personalizing their card
with a question about how John and Mindi are doing or whether they have any
new cats or whatever.  Just good business practice from my point of view.
The extra time spent is worth more than hundreds, or even thousands of
dollars worth of advertising.

Even for stand alone pieces purchased without installation I try to get the
person's name, address and what they purchased for anything over about
$500.00.  I have had a couple cases where I found a particular technique I
was using was causing problems down the road.  This is my side of a
guarantee.  If ever I find an unusual amount of a particular technique
failing I will go out of my way to contact people who bought pieces with
that technique and offer them a free repair.

The huge majority of people are thrilled that I will stand behind my work to
this extent.  They are the ones who will be back.  I can not buy that kind
of advertising anywhere for any price.

-----Original Message-----
From: Carol Swann <seaspray@mail.island.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 23, 1999 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?


>I think it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to pick one name and stick to it.  It's a
>matter of product recognition...a marketing thing.  Could you imagine
trying
>to buy pepsi one week, liking it and then going back for more the next week
>only to find that it's now called frogsi.  Get used to that name, go back
to
>buy more 6 months later, and find out it's been changed to dogsie.  Would
>you be confused?  Why would someone wanting your glasswork be any less
confused?
>Yes, I know the hypothetical names stink, but I'm not feeling particularly
>creative at the moment.
>
>Now with art glass we are in a business where people may only need our
>services once every 5 years or so.  What if they met you as pepsi, and look
>for you 5 years later...how will they know that frogsie is the same art
>glass company, especially when they have a card that says PEpsi.  Let's say
>you've moved in that 5 year period (most people do move on average every 5
>years)...since your card isn't valid and they go to the yellow pages to
find
>a glass artist, how will they know that frogsie (who's listed) is
>you...pepsi (who isn't)?  Answer...they won't know, and you'll probably
lose
>a sale.
>
>Since some people seem to prefer artist name recognition, I make sure both
>company name and personal name appear on everything.  Personally, I would
>prefer to be known by my studio name since I have plans for growing my
business.
>
>For you, I think changing from a name that no one can remember or that had
>negative connotations was a good plan.  I also like that Holtenwood appears
>in both your businesses' names...gives continuity...shows that one is
>related to (a division of) the other, or so folk might tend to think.
Gives
>an impression of substance and size.  Very subtle psychology, but then
>that's what marketing is.
>
>I think that you might have to do some education around what architectural
>detailing is.  When I first saw that name I thought you were a draftsman
>providing plans.  I do understand that you're looking for a catchall sort
of
>name since what you do is quite ecclectic.  Perhaps you can educate and
>prevent misunderstandings on your card, brochure and other promotional
>literature by listing the types of things you do in small
>letters...woodworking, stained glass, tilework.
>
>I can empathize around how challenging this is to choose a name that's all
>encompassing and has some meaning to it.  The "and Creative" in my name
>refers to workshop facilitation (creativity, colour energies, etc.), one on
>one creativity coaching, designing and preparing "the look" of manuscripts
>for publication, a little interior design work, etc.  I add etc because who
>knows what'll be along next.  People seem to relate well to this concept no
>matter in what capacity they are relating to me.
>
>It's a nice bonus that the Holtenwood "made up word" had some symbolism
>appropriate to your living place and the woodwork you do.
>
>C.
>
>
>
>
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>
>check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
>http://come.to/The_E-Tour
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass




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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 16:55:30 1999
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From: sreckner@wauknet.com (Steve Reckner)
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 17:50:04 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.11504.0>
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>L Nelson wrote:
>>
>> Hi,  do you cut out pattern pcs. and glue them on glass and then cut I
have
>> not tried this yet I have a really hard time getting my pcs. to fit
together
>> usually there are big gaps..thanks laura


We read someplace recently that a glue stick works well. So... I bought a
glue stick to try on our next project. We'll let you know how it works. Or
how it doesn't work, as the case may be.

Steve and Susan Reckner

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 17:27:45 1999
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X-Path: pop3.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Patrick O'Tutu
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:16:31 +0000
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Precedence: bulk

 Love it Soraya, ... love it!!!

Patrick O'Tutu's e-mail addy is 
pkelly@n-link.com


Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
 - who both have just tucked up our lovely  
Bungi Barefoot Daniel German into bed, after a lovely afternoon.
He is really cute, ladies!! Just as he comes across in his e-mails.
Wow, what HE doesn't know about photography, isn't worth knowing....
English breakfast tomorrow morning (with mushrooms!!!!)
 ....and....greasy but crisp grilled bacon!!!
;->

Soraya wrote:
> Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more about
> me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's email
> addy.
> 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 17:42:53 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re:  Re: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:37:43 EST
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In a message dated 2/26/99 3:19:18 PM, glshorse@ior.com wrote:

>a spray adhesive.... intended for (I kid
>you not) giving peoples butts some grip in the saddle

Just don't use too much....... 'cause if do and your horse gets spooked and
throws you, you could end up on the ground with your britches looking like
Toby got hold of 'em!


Sparks, who never learned to drive one o' them cock-eyed critters.......

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 17:57:01 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Steve" <goldenlad@iname.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:13:09 -0800
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>>Any tips on taking apart an old panel are greatly welcomed.

TIA
Steve<<

I hope this turns out to be a long productive thread. I sure have had
my problems with old panels where the putty/cement/whatever did not
want to let go.

Soaking the panel in water for two or three days is often all that is
needed. I know someone that has a large shallow tray to do this in. I
just use towels SOAKED with water. Have tried linseed oil but not sure
it works. Have tried many other solvents and found none that I felt
really did the job. CLR cleaner seems to help at times.

Sometimes the putty wins and and I end up doing a lot of extra repair
work. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 18:00:27 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re:  foil not sticking was: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 19:40:49 EST
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In a message dated 2/26/99 5:18:36 PM, seaspray@mail.island.net wrote:

>I rarely use [black back foil] ... I've consistently found that it doesn't
stick as
>well for me as the silver back (most used) or copper back (occasionally
>used).

I've only used silver back a couple of times. Maybe it was old stuff, but it
didn't stick very well. Never had a problem with copper or black back (Venture
brand) not sticking -- but the black sticky stuff sure does gum up a pair of
scissors quickly!


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 18:39:32 1999
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X-Path: warner-criv.com!charles
From: "Charles Warner" <charles@warner-criv.com>
To: "Steve Reckner" <sreckner@wauknet.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: got almost all the pieces  cut out!!!
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:22:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.152247.0>
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Assuming you have control of the cutter; if you are using the "English"
method to cut you might be looking at the pattern from an angle.  If using
paper patterns perhaps your pattern pieces are made from too thick a
material or you are not holding the cutter perpendicular left-to-right.

Charles Warner
Warner-Crivellaro
http://www.warner-criv.com/

>>> Hi,  do you cut out pattern pcs. and glue them on glass and then
>>> cut I have not tried this yet I have a really hard time getting my
>>> pcs. to fit together usually there are big gaps..thanks laura
>
>We read someplace recently that a glue stick works well. So... I bought a
>glue stick to try on our next project. We'll let you know how it works. Or
>how it doesn't work, as the case may be.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 20:19:48 1999
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Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:41:03 EST
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Hello group,
    Had a client with a lamp repair today and she was telling me about two
stained glass shades she has with very sketchy backgrounds.  The story on the
lamps is..............  they were  originally in a restaurant at Tiffany's in
New York City.    UH HUH............  I know what you are thinking.   Anyway,
both shades have a brass plate marked SKYLITE soldered on the inside.  Of
course, my client thinks they are Tiffany's, I have not seen them yet.  Has
anyone ever heard of the SKYLITE stamp?  Thanks in advance.
LUANNE
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 20:27:11 1999
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From: Carolyn Noel <glasscat@infinet.com>
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Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:01:38 -0500
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References: <<1999Feb26.121848.0>>
Organization: The Stained Glass Place
Precedence: bulk

If there's a really heavy ripple, I'd bevel the edge a bit on the
grinder. Makes it alot easier to foil.

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 21:58:17 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Fwd: Spectrum Waterglass rumors
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------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          matthews@spectrumglass.com
Date:          Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:19:05 -0800
To:            artglass@spectrumglass.com
Subject:       Re: Fwd: Spectrum Waterglass rumors
Cc:            "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>

Dear Steve Richard:

I want to give you a decent answer but will ask you to forgive me if I seem
rushed.  I'm headed out of town for a week and trying to get 99 things done
before departing.

There is a company in China manufacturing 4 clear textures.  There is no
association with Spectrum other than the fact that Spectrum has aggreed to
distribute their products.  We are doing so under the moniker "Express"
clear textures.  These glasses are not similar in composition to Spectrum
and thus not compatible in terms of expansion.

The imports include only the four clear textures we advertised, nothing
else.  Waterglassr is not being manufactured offshore.  One of the imported
products is called "Venice."  It is somewhat similar to Waterglass, but on
comparison the differences are evident.  Waterglass, clear and 25 or so
colors, is made only by Spectrum and only in Woodinville.

The differences between what we call "T-glass" and standard glass have
nothing to do with sheet size.  Waterglass always has narrower sheets, due
to the stretching process that creates the texture.  The look of the
Waterglass varies somewhat; it is not a rolled, mechanical texture, but
instead a natural texture resulting from the stretching process.  Thus, it
does look different from time to time and color to color.  We try to keep
it consistent, within reason, but it is not unusual to see some variation.

Steve:  I hope this helps.  I will forward a copy to Al lewis in hopes he
will post on Bungi.




Jim Matthews
Spectrum Glass





>>Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:33:10 +0000
>>To: artglass@spectrumglass.com
>>From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Spectrum Waterglass rumors
>>MIME-Version: 1.0
>>Status:
>>
>>You will see from the attached extracts that there are a number of
>>concerns about the glass which you are supplying.  For me the waterglass
>>question is most important.  We have been fusing with waterglass and
>>getting excellent results, leading to some small production runs.
>>
>>I need to know whether the new glass coming from China has the same
>>characteristics as the previous glass. Will it be compatible with the
>>existing waterglass and with other Spectrum cathedrals and wispies?
>>
>>I would also like to know your response to the questions:
>>1- Spectrum has started importing glass manufactured in China. Does this
>>include your sheet glass?
>>2- How does the Spectrum Express relate to the rest of your range of
>>glass - market, compatibility, consistency of colour, cutting
>>characteristics?
>>3-  Do the different sizes indicate a difference between regular and "T"
>>glass?
>>4-  Is the waterglass now manufactured "offshore"?
>>5-  Is the new waterglass different by being thinner, tighter ripples,
>>etc.?
>>
>>
>>A note to the glass groups may be in your interest too.
>>
>>Thanks in anticipation of your reply.
>>Steve
>>
>>---------------
>>enclosed comments:
>>-----Gang,
>>
>>This is a general announcement FYI.  Shakeel and I
>>were doing an off-line conversation, and I thought
>>everyone would be interested.  Spectrum has started
>>importing glass manufactured in China.  And the pre-
>>made lampshade kits from Dynasty are also made
>>in China.  Shakeel received one and was very
>>disappointed in the crudeness of the foiling and
>>not good glass used.
>>
>>Shakeel wrote:
>><...Did you open up and look at the Dynasty "Mission"
>>kit you sent me?  It said "Made in China"....>
>>
>>No, I didn't open up the Dynasty kit and look at it prior to
>>mailing it off to you.  Thanks for the warning about them.
>>Not nice business practices.  I've got the Spectrum announcement
>>right here in front of me.  It says...
>>
>>"The next issue of THE SCORE (March 1st mailing) will
>>include our first promotion of the Spectrum Express line of
>>imported clear textures.  These clear glasses, manufactured
>>in China and available exclusively from Spectrum, are now
>>being shipped along with standard Spectrum products to all
>>stocking distributors.
>>
>>There are four separate clear textures in this group, including
>>two that are available in both 5mm and 3mm thicknesses....."
>>
>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
>>as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
>>me believe it's also coming from China.
>>
>>I agree with you.  If I wanted to buy Chinese glass I would have
>>purchased Chinese glass.  Thanks for the warning about
>>the Dynasty kits.
>>
>>Christie A. Wood
>>-----------------------
>>Spectrum does make two different sheet sizes.  The 20x48 that you refer
>>to
>>is probably their "t" glass and is lower in price than their standard
>>stock
>>size.  This glass is usually the first run or last run.  If you examine
>>the
>>two different sheets the "t" appears to be flawed.  The waves are
>>actually
>>stringy looking.
>>Hope this helps.
>>Molly
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
>>To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
>>Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 2:00 PM
>>Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
>>
>>
>>>>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
>>>as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
>>>me believe it's also coming from China.<<
>>>
>>>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>>>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>>>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>>>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>>>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses. Bob
>>>
>>>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>>---------------
>>Message text written by "Bob E Duchesneau"
>>>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses.<
>>
>>Naw...I usually purchase the colored waterglass sheets in the large
>>sheets.  I know the difference between waterglass and their small
>>ripple.  The look of the Spectrum waterglass has changed significantly
>>in the past year.  The sheets are now thinner, and the waves are
>>thinner.  Some folk like the new waterglass look.  I like the thicker
>>original look.
>>
>>Christie A. Wood
>>--
>>Steve Richard
>>Verrier Art Glass Ltd
>>s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
>>
>
>Sara Peterson
>Marketing Assistant
>artglass@SpectrumGlass.com


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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 22:16:54 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: goldenlad@iname.com (Steve)
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@[24.48.42.2]>
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> I'm trying to take apart and relead a panel and am having problems
> taking the old lead off. The cement has formed a very hard joint
> between the lead and the glass. Can cement be softened by application
> of Linseed oil, (the panel is over 50 years old and I don't want to
> risk breaking any of the painted glass).

A long soak in warm water, Steve. Even so, you may have a job ahead 
of you if the putty was made with Portland cement.

Albert
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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 22:28:12 1999
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To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Free Prizes - New Members and Lurkers 
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:01:05 -0600
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Precedence: bulk

Now that I have your attention:

Every Saturday I post short biographies, that members submit to me. Nothing
real formal, just chatty stuff, how you got started in glass, family, where
you live, favorite project, and what ever else you want to send. It is a
real hit with most members. Some of them actually, relax with curlers in
their hair (not me of course), a glass of wine, fuzzy slippers, and a
tattered old robe , and read them with interest. It is just a way of
introducing yourself. You would be surprised how many friendships develop
this way. Please send your bio to me and I'll post it.

Don't make me get violent and track you down!

PS I lied about the prizes, just like some of you lied about sending me your
bio. (8-)

PPS If any one would like copies of past bios I'll send them to you,
privately.



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 22:31:47 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Daniel in Toby's bed
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:42:19 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.174219.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hope you kicked that smelly canine out of the bed before Daniel got in.
Ooooops sorry I got carried away, thought you were still ill. So fill us in
on the activities you and Daniel will be doing.

Welcome back to the land of the living. Don't sneeze on the computer.... it
spreads viruses.




-----Original Message-----
From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:34 PM
Subject: Patrick O'Tutu


> Love it Soraya, ... love it!!!
>
>Patrick O'Tutu's e-mail addy is
>pkelly@n-link.com
>
>
>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
> - who both have just tucked up our lovely
>Bungi Barefoot Daniel German into bed, after a lovely afternoon.
>He is really cute, ladies!! Just as he comes across in his e-mails.
>Wow, what HE doesn't know about photography, isn't worth knowing....
>English breakfast tomorrow morning (with mushrooms!!!!)
> ....and....greasy but crisp grilled bacon!!!
>;->
>
>Soraya wrote:
>> Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more
about
>> me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's email
>> addy.
>>
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Fri Feb 26 23:08:45 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: The elusive cube
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:20:45 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.182045.0>
Precedence: bulk

I know this is an old thread but thought you might like to hear this.

As many of you know I teach computer science in the evenings. Last week a
member posted a great stained glass site with the elusive cube.

In an effort to teach my beginner's class a little about the web I wrote the
URL on the chalk board and without further directions I told my class to
visit that site. With very little assistance most of them were successful.
Finally, all the computers (about 36) were on the site with the spinning
cube. The "Wows" were heard in another lab, curiosity set in and before we
knew it we had two other classes looking at the monitors. Soon other
computer instructors were looking over our shoulders and trying to figure
out how it was accomplished. My students started beaming with pride to think
that they had found something of so much interest to much more experienced
"Geeks".  Many of them when asked "let me use the mouse" they said "No" I'll
move it for you. I was really laughing out loud. The next day the Computer
Science Department was abuse with the new site and in the Instructor's
Offices I noticed many of them hitting the site.

Out of about 100 people I heard many of them remark about how they wanted to
do Stained Glass, and they didn't realize that outside of churches SG was so
beautiful.

Bottom line: Attention all retailers and SG artists, beware my students have
been exposed and some may even start in the art form.




Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 01:53:07 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: The elusive cube
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:44:06 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb26.16446.0>
Precedence: bulk

http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/9940/cube.html

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 02:54:04 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:21:16 +0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.102116.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.8139.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

I agree with Bob about linseed oil, Steve
        Linseed oil is not likely to soften the existing hardened
putty/cement. It will itself harden relatively quickly.
        Water is a better method.  But you have to be sure the paint is
securely fastened to the glass and will not be harmed by water.  Test in
an unimportant place.
        I have a book in the studio about conservation which I will try
to remember to get out.

Steve in Scotland

In message <1999Feb26.8139.0@?>, Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
writes
>>>Any tips on taking apart an old panel are greatly welcomed.
>
>TIA
>Steve<<
>
>I hope this turns out to be a long productive thread. I sure have had
>my problems with old panels where the putty/cement/whatever did not
>want to let go.
>
>Soaking the panel in water for two or three days is often all that is
>needed. I know someone that has a large shallow tray to do this in. I
>just use towels SOAKED with water. Have tried linseed oil but not sure
>it works. Have tried many other solvents and found none that I felt
>really did the job. CLR cleaner seems to help at times.
>
>Sometimes the putty wins and and I end up doing a lot of extra repair
>work. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Think glass, have class.
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 07:30:06 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bio # 91 Judy Novak
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:05:28 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.3528.0>
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How wonderful it was to meet you!  If you weren't so wonderfully
charming, and if you hadn't put on such a grand show trying to sit
gracefully in the tutu I would pass on the bio but you are and it was
great fun so here goes! Oh, and I promised.

My bio......
Long long ago in a land far away...   No, that is another story!
Essentially, I am a very old lady and have been doing art in some form
or the other since I can remember.  I am a Libra. Well, of course. I
can't make up my mind what I want to do because it is all so wonderful
and I love to learn, to work and play.
I have spent the greater part of my art endeavors doing oil painting,
pottery (hand built, wheel thrown and clay sculpture).  I actually
studied this stuff in school and college, seminars, workshops and around
the raku kilns with other like minded individuals.  I will forever deny
that I put the chicken in the kiln!
About 10 years ago a friend got involved in stained glass and shared a
studio with me, I promised not to mess with her stained glass stuff!!! I
tried really hard.......I did! Honest!  But the glass would call to me,
over and over and over.  It was a nightmare, the conflict!  I promised!
the glass calling......strong moral values...the glass calling....  To
heck with morals!  I was hooked.  That's the story!
We moved to Temple this year, opened a (we think) nice retail glass and
gift shop. Are in the process of re-establishing our small farm and
studio in a tiny town called Little River.  We continue to play in glass
and learn.  Great life-great fun.
We invite all that come our way to stop and visit.  We love the company
of other glass folks!

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 07:59:43 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Fwd: Spectrum Waterglass rumors
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:30:58 -0500
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Thanks for Albert & Spectrum for clearing up the questions
I raised about the Chinese glass.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 08:09:38 1999
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Bio # 91 Judy Novak
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:38:11 PST
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[In the message entitled "Bio # 91 Judy Novak" on Feb 27,  9:05, "Pkelly" writes:]

Welcome to the group!

> gift shop. Are in the process of re-establishing our small farm and
> studio in a tiny town called Little River.  We continue to play in glass
> and learn.  Great life-great fun.
> We invite all that come our way to stop and visit.  We love the company
> of other glass folks!

Did you mean Little River, CA?
If so we are fairly close to eachother.  I stayed in Mendocino for
weekend.  I loved the area,..I love the ocean!

Enjoy!



-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 08:18:44 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Leslye2
From: Leslye2@aol.com
To: flajwa@mindspring.com, Swazallen@juno.com, ball@magicnet.net,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Change of E-Mail Addresses
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:37:36 EST
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Hi all,
I think Paul has got the new account set up so I can now officially change our
e-mail addresses.  They are:
Paul--pauldnelson@earthlink.com
Leslye--leslye2@earthlink.com

Please change your address books.

We went to see Cirque du Soelei last night for my birthday and it is
absolutely AWESOME.  It is indescribable.  For those of you in FL I strongly
recommend you go to Downtown Disney to see it.  For you others, if it ever
comes to your town, SEE IT !!!
Leslye
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 08:28:04 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bio # 92 Soraya
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:16:18 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.31618.0>
Precedence: bulk

Editor's Note: Slightly edited to protect the innocent.......pk. Edited a=
ge
and Date of Birth because I have holes in my underwear older than her.


So here it is=85my bio=85.this is an updated and edited version of the on=
e I
have on my web site=85.I apologize for the length=85

    Let=92s see=85I am a __ years old (3 August,19_ _) and live in Port C=
linton,
Ohio, USA on the shores of Lake Erie in the Island area. I grew up about =
7
miles from where I now live, on Catawba Island. I lived in Bremerhaven
Germany for two and a half years while I worked at an American Military N=
CO
club.

    I am married and together we have a delightful and/or obnoxious,
(depending on her mood) too smart, too cute for her own good, four year o=
ld
pre-schooler named Veronika, but better known as Rocky. We also share our
home with two lovable rats (yes, rats!) named Devon and Cornwall.   If yo=
u
are just dying of curiosity...you can find a scapebook of pictures at
http://www.cros.net/soraya/scrapebook.htm . (I made all of my daughters
Halloween costumes.)

    Professionally, I used to be a bartender (for a long time)...but am
currently in the midst of changing careers to something more conducive to=
 a
normal life! (Those of you who have worked nights can understand!) I am
looking for something in the computer field=85and someone who will hire m=
e
with a lot of practical knowledge=85.just no formal education on the subj=
ect!

    In my spare-time (such as it is) I'm a computer geek, (I have built m=
y
last computer as well as one for my mother-in-law and have crafted severa=
l
web-sites, both personally and professionally). I am a Cleveland Indians
Baseball fan=85(my daughter gets part of her nickname from Rocky
Colivato..also Clark Gable's first wife and Rocky Balboa!). I'll read alm=
ost
anything printed and listen to many types of music. I joke that my home
looks like a computer, book, and toy store exploded!  I try to go to Ceda=
r
Point ( a roller-coaster amusement park) as often as possible in the summ=
er
time.

    I have just started to doing stained glass=85though I am involved in =
a few
other fine arts and crafts (beadwork, textiles, sculpting, etc etc) as we=
ll
as computer graphics. Stained Glass has always been on my list of things =
to
learn before I die=85though I don=92t have any one reason why, I just lov=
e the
play of light and texture as well as the whole design concept behind it. =
(I
also love the =91technical skills=92 combined with =91artistic skills=92 =
that it
takes to work in this medium=85it is not all one or the other.) I have be=
en
doing what I call "Stained Graphics" for my web site for ages=85..so when=
 some
=91down time=92 between employment happened this winter=85I decided now w=
as the
time to learn. I was fortunate to have a great shop near-by with a beginn=
ers
class just starting up. The owner, and instructor, Ben, has been patient =
and
incredibly helpful during this learning phase=85I really enjoy his "jump-=
on
in-and-do-it / hands-on-approach" to teaching. So far I have decided I li=
ke
leaded panels more that copper foil and  the concrete mosaics are fun. (T=
oo
easy though, as they eliminate the hardest part of stained glass for
me =85.soldering!!) I have several friends breathlessly waiting to see if=
 I
develop any sort of talent in stained glass due to the fact they have an
on-line store they would like to add hard to find appropriate themed piec=
es
to their catalog. (We=92ll see about this!! LOL)

    In case you are wondering (and everyone wonders...lol)I received my n=
ame
Soraya in a long and drawn out piece of family history. Though the name
itself is Arabic, I am not however. (My four grandparents were Polish,
Belgian, Scottish and Irish) It seems that my Polish Grandmother, (her na=
me
was Veronika,) looked a lot like the Empress Soraya of Iran. (To see a fe=
w
pictures I have on my site go to=85 http://www.cros.net/soraya/empress.ht=
m )
The late Shah's second wife, who it is said he greatly loved, but had to
divorced because she couldn't have children. The Empress Soraya was quite
popular in France where my family was living at the time (most still do) =
So
it became something of a nickname for my Grandmother=85.and when my fathe=
r
would not allow me to be named after his mother-in-law=85my mom snuck thi=
s in
and I am so named after both of them, sort of.....

    The name Soraya itself means...The Seven Stars of the constellation
known as Ursa major (aka the Big Dipper). These Seven stars are responsib=
le
for: The Seven Days of the Week ,The Seven Gates of the Peacock Throne, T=
he
Seven Wonders of The Ancient World, The Lucky Number Seven, The Seven
Pillars of Wisdom, The Seven Colors of the Spectrum, The Seven Musical
Notes, The Seven Ages of Man, The Seven Deadly Sins, The Seven Main Chakr=
as,
The Seven Seas and anything else having to do with the number Seven!!

    The constellation is known as The Throne Of The Goddess In Heaven, al=
so
controls the weather, shines brightest before the dawn, and is the diadem=
 of
the skies. The seven stars that make up the constellation are know as The
Seven Sisters. Whew...what a name to live up to!

    While I worked at an Applebee's a couple came in, the woman was about=
 8
months pregnant. They asked about my name=85and than they actually named =
their
new daughter Soraya!! I also have 2 cats, a basset hound, and a Nubian go=
at
named after me.

    I have enjoyed this list both for its glass advise, humour and genera=
l
friendly atmosphere (a pleasant change from many net groups!!) I have
already learned so much, found such interesting web sites, I am sure you =
all
will be there with relevant answers and I hope that as my glass experienc=
e
grows I will be able to take a more active part on the discussions.

    Take Care,
    Soraya
    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    Soraya may reached at...
    soraya@cros.net
    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
    Soraya's Witches' Thicket at....
    http://www.cros.net/soraya
    ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
"Do not attempt to do a thing unless you are sure of yourself; but do not
relinquish
it simply because someone else is not sure of you."
         -Stewart E. White

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 08:29:36 1999
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X-Path: n-link.com!pkelly
From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Today's Bios
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:34:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.33452.0>
Precedence: bulk

Thank to Judy and Soraya my gnomon is safe for another week.

Soraya: I told you her we would be interested in the origins of her name.
Thanks Soraya

Judy: Stopped by Judy's new shop .... how beautiful. We started to discuss
her bio and got into a heated argument and the next thing you know we were
punching and jabbing. The shop was a shambles, my TuTu had cutting oil , and
frit all over it, we rolled around for what seemed like hours ...... Finally
when we were both exhausted .... she let me up, she agreed to send me her
bio. It wasn't a pretty sight. So that's how I got her bio .... yeah, yeah,
that's my story. So here I am sitting and soldering my TuTu... ouch. Maybe I
should take it off first... Ouch (shades of the Brit Chick)... ouch.

Morale to the story above ..... Don't make me get violent and come looking
for you to send me your bio. A Stained Glass TuTu is a terrible thing to
waste.

Send me your bio



Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 09:30:02 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!ABBIE23875
From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Glue stick...
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:53:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.6534.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi....I use a glue stick on my glass all the time...it works great and if
you get the pinkish purple kind that dries clear, you can see the color
reappear when dipped in ammonia based clear glass cleaner.This makes it easy
to see and no glue is left on the glass.Ross Glue Stick is one brand name.
The glass cleaner came from Lowes and comes in gallon containers. Abbie
Mason

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 10:00:40 1999
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From: "Doug Parrott" <bird_cage@email.msn.com>
To: "bungi group" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:23:09 -0800
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things are pretty hectic at my home right now so I need to take a respite
from bungi for awhile.

Please unsubscribe.

I hope to be back in May

Thanks,

Cheryl Parrott



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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 12:59:32 1999
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: The elusive cube
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:28:20 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.42820.0>
References: <<1999Feb26.16446.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Thank you Bob.
But I can't get it to load pass image 5.
Anyone else having this problem?
Shirley B

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/9940/cube.html
> 
> Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
> Think glass, have class.
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 13:29:46 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: What's in a Name?
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 12:17:29 -0800
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Sorry to anyone who had problems following the last set of my messages in
this thread.  I sent them all in sequential order, but more or less at the
same time.  When they came back from the list server they were all mixed
around.  Even I was a bit confused.  I will know in the future to space
sequential messages further apart if I really want them to be read
sequentially.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 13:48:18 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:50:12 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.25012.0>
Precedence: bulk

I am pretty sure they are still producing their water glass.  I visited
their factory in Woodinville Washington in October and it sure as heck
looked like they were still producing water glass!

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 24, 1999 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports


>>>I suspect their Waterglass line is now manufactured off-shore,
>as the thicknesses are different, as is the sheet size.  Makes
>me believe it's also coming from China.<<
>
>I don't think so but I have been known to be wrong. Spectrum clear
>water glass (S100W) comes in sheets that are 20" X 48"s. They also
>make a clear cathedral ripple (S100R) that is a tighter pattern than
>waterglass and comes in sheets that are 24" X 48"s. When purchased in
>small sheets it is easy to confuse the two different glasses. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Think glass, have class.
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 13:59:58 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 11:53:41 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.35341.0>
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An did you know you could use a somewhat different version of relief lines
to cut a fully enclosed circle out from inside a sheet of glass?  I have had
more glass teachers say that cutting a circle out from a sheet of glass
while leaving the glass outside the circle whole and uncut is impossible.
Not true!  (And you do not need fancy grinders or hole saws either).

1. Score the circle, either free hand or with a compass or elliptical arm
cutter.  The two ends of the score must meet perfectly.

2. Score a few to several relief lines starting tangential to the circle and
spiraling inward toward the center.  Relief lines should spiral both ways
such that when running the scores they come right up to the circle from both
directions and create an elliptical piece which can drop out.

3. Now comes the weird part from a normal glass working point of view.
Score a whole bunch of criss-crossing score lines in the center of the
circle.  The area covered by these criss-crossed score lines needs to be big
enough for your grozing pliers to fit into the hole, but small enough so any
breaks extending out from them will still strike the relief lines at a
shallow enough angle to run the relief scores.  Use an old cutter for this
because scoring over the top of other score lines is really hard on a
cutter.  We don't want you to ruin your expensive Toyo cutting wheel.

4. Flip the glass over.  The pressure for the next step should be from the
back side.  Also your glass must be resting absolutely flat on a clean flat
work surface.  Any pressure points under the sheet of glass are going to
fracture the whole thing.

5. Take either an old style brass striking ball like comes on the end of
some older style glass cutters or the ball side of a ball-peen hammer.
Smash it into the center of the glass then rock it back and forth hard
crushing out all those little chunks of glass between the criss-crossed
score lines.  Do not be gentle here.  The more fracture lines you have
running out to the spiral relief lines the easier the rest of the job will
be.  I am very serious here - you are truly smashing out the area with the
crossing score lines.  (Also, you MUST use eye protection here - the little
chunks of glass fly out all over the place).

6.  Now pressure run or tap all of the spiral relief lines out to where they
meet the circle at a tangent and as much as possible around the circle back
to another relief line.  Use your grozing pliers to pull out all the
tangential ellipses and any remaining cords inside the circle.

I would suggest trying this on cheap flat glass first.  It does take some
practice to get the feel of it.  Also the more textured the glass is the
more difficult it becomes.  Textured glass will need a work surface which
supports the glass and spreads the pressure points as evenly as possible.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christie A. Wood <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, February 25, 1999 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)


>Message text written by INTERNET:dodgestudio@juno.com
>>The tangent lines you refer to,  are they two separate score lines used
>to create one curve or are they where two distinct and different curves
>meet?<
>
>They are 2 separate score lines used to create one curve.
>That's the way I was taught.  Thank you ever so much for
>describing the alternate method whereby you score the
>entire curve, then go back and add in releaf scores.  I shall
>try that method.  This bungi group is great, n'est pas?
>
>Christie A. Wood
>Art Glass Ensembles, 4013 Skippack Pike, Bldg B,
>P.O. Box 903, Skippack, PA 19474-0903
>http://www.igga.org/wood/
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 14:31:00 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!BOBDU
From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley Balloch" <balloch@netbridge.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: The elusive cube
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:40:11 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.54011.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Thank you Bob.
But I can't get it to load pass image 5.
Anyone else having this problem?
Shirley B

Bob E Duchesneau wrote:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/9940/cube.html
> <<

I just clicked on the addy given above and it loaded fine. Takes a
while to get all six images downloaded. I wonder if your file recieve
has a byte limit that is being exceeded? Others have had problems
downloading the cube that I think may be time related.

If I ever get off my butt and get a site up I might very well use the
cube. Think it is great for showing work. Only drawback seems to be
the amount of download it requires. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass, have class.

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 14:49:14 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bio # 91 Judy Novak
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 17:01:38 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.9138.0>
References: <<m10Gloi-0000ELC@daver.bungi.com>>
Organization: SBWSA
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There's a Little River - a small town in SC - right down the road apiece from me too,
a few miles in from the Atlantic Ocean.  Small world.

Carol T

Glenna Rand wrote:

> [In the message entitled "Bio # 91 Judy Novak" on Feb 27,  9:05, "Pkelly" writes:]
>
> Welcome to the group!
>
> > gift shop. Are in the process of re-establishing our small farm and
> > studio in a tiny town called Little River.  We continue to play in glass
> > and learn.  Great life-great fun.
> > We invite all that come our way to stop and visit.  We love the company
> > of other glass folks!
>
> Did you mean Little River, CA?
> If so we are fairly close to eachother.  I stayed in Mendocino for
> weekend.  I loved the area,..I love the ocean!
>
> Enjoy!
>
> --
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 15:00:45 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Glass List" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:16:24 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.61624.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just as a thought (I have not actually tried it): i wonder if Citrisol
(liquid) or Citristrip (gel) would work for those cases where soaking in
water did not.  Safer than most other solvants and very broad spectrum in
what it will soften.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob E Duchesneau <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Steve <goldenlad@iname.com>
Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.


>>>Any tips on taking apart an old panel are greatly welcomed.
>
>TIA
>Steve<<
>
>I hope this turns out to be a long productive thread. I sure have had
>my problems with old panels where the putty/cement/whatever did not
>want to let go.
>
>Soaking the panel in water for two or three days is often all that is
>needed. I know someone that has a large shallow tray to do this in. I
>just use towels SOAKED with water. Have tried linseed oil but not sure
>it works. Have tried many other solvents and found none that I felt
>really did the job. CLR cleaner seems to help at times.
>
>Sometimes the putty wins and and I end up doing a lot of extra repair
>work. Bob
>
>Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
>Think glass, have class.
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 16:29:51 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Save it all....
Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 19:13:20 -0500
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Toby, don't forget to save the bacon grease! Glad yall had a grand ole'
time....Abbie Mason

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 23:16:45 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Today's Bios
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:51:49 -0500
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>>>Soraya, I told you her we would be interested in the origins of her name.


But I bet you didn't think it would be that long of a story!!  <G>

Soraya


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 23:16:46 1999
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From: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: "Pat Kelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Daniel in Toby's bed
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:31:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.193127.0>
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Patrick,
Just wondering if you would be so bold if that 4-legged canine was on the
same continent as you, personally I doubt it. lol

Karen


>Hope you kicked that smelly canine out of the bed before Daniel got in.
>Ooooops sorry I got carried away, thought you were still ill. So fill us
in
>on the activities you and Daniel will be doing.
>
>Welcome back to the land of the living. Don't sneeze on the computer....
it
>spreads viruses.
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:34 PM
>Subject: Patrick O'Tutu
>
>
>> Love it Soraya, ... love it!!!
>>
>>Patrick O'Tutu's e-mail addy is
>>pkelly@n-link.com
>>
>>
>>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
>> - who both have just tucked up our lovely
>>Bungi Barefoot Daniel German into bed, after a lovely afternoon.
>>He is really cute, ladies!! Just as he comes across in his e-mails.
>>Wow, what HE doesn't know about photography, isn't worth knowing....
>>English breakfast tomorrow morning (with mushrooms!!!!)
>> ....and....greasy but crisp grilled bacon!!!
>>;->
>>
>>Soraya wrote:
>>> Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more
>about
>>> me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's
email
>>> addy.
>>>
>>----
>>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>>----
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 23:30:05 1999
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From: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>
To: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Daniel in Toby's bed
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:17:14 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.181714.0>
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I might be crazy ...... but I ain't dumb.....LOL


-----Original Message-----
From: Karen K. <giapet@softhouse.com>
To: Pat Kelly <pkelly@n-link.com>; glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, February 27, 1999 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Daniel in Toby's bed


>
>Patrick,
>Just wondering if you would be so bold if that 4-legged canine was on the
>same continent as you, personally I doubt it. lol
>
>Karen
>
>
>>Hope you kicked that smelly canine out of the bed before Daniel got in.
>>Ooooops sorry I got carried away, thought you were still ill. So fill us
>in
>>on the activities you and Daniel will be doing.
>>
>>Welcome back to the land of the living. Don't sneeze on the computer....
>it
>>spreads viruses.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
>>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>>Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:34 PM
>>Subject: Patrick O'Tutu
>>
>>
>>> Love it Soraya, ... love it!!!
>>>
>>>Patrick O'Tutu's e-mail addy is
>>>pkelly@n-link.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
>>> - who both have just tucked up our lovely
>>>Bungi Barefoot Daniel German into bed, after a lovely afternoon.
>>>He is really cute, ladies!! Just as he comes across in his e-mails.
>>>Wow, what HE doesn't know about photography, isn't worth knowing....
>>>English breakfast tomorrow morning (with mushrooms!!!!)
>>> ....and....greasy but crisp grilled bacon!!!
>>>;->
>>>
>>>Soraya wrote:
>>>> Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more
>>about
>>>> me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's
>email
>>>> addy.
>>>>
>>>----
>>>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>>>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>>>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
>>>----
>>>----
>>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>>
>>
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>
>

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From owner-glass Sat Feb 27 23:46:16 1999
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To: "Karen K." <giapet@softhouse.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Peace to Toby! was Re: Daniel in Toby's bed
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:37:53 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Feb27.193753.0>
References: <<1999Feb27.193127.0>>
Precedence: bulk

In fact, Patrick, you might want to be thinking of sending home a peace
offering with Elisabeth, for Toby, after E's USA tour.  Maybe some
flavored nylabone?  I hear pigs ears arent so good for them after all.

And considering what is best for Toby, nyla bone would probably be a lot
better for him than a glass tutu....even if there is a meaty Irish leg
underneath (not to even mention gnomen) <- notice the plural? ;o)

Tulsa Suzanne


Karen K. wrote:
> 
> Patrick,
> Just wondering if you would be so bold if that 4-legged canine was on the
> same continent as you, personally I doubt it. lol
> 
> Karen
> 
> >Hope you kicked that smelly canine out of the bed before Daniel got in.
> >Ooooops sorry I got carried away, thought you were still ill. So fill us
> in
> >on the activities you and Daniel will be doing.
> >
> >Welcome back to the land of the living. Don't sneeze on the computer....
> it
> >spreads viruses.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Toby <toby@northlights.co.uk>
> >To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> >Date: Friday, February 26, 1999 7:34 PM
> >Subject: Patrick O'Tutu
> >
> >
> >> Love it Soraya, ... love it!!!
> >>
> >>Patrick O'Tutu's e-mail addy is
> >>pkelly@n-link.com
> >>
> >>
> >>Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
> >> - who both have just tucked up our lovely
> >>Bungi Barefoot Daniel German into bed, after a lovely afternoon.
> >>He is really cute, ladies!! Just as he comes across in his e-mails.
> >>Wow, what HE doesn't know about photography, isn't worth knowing....
> >>English breakfast tomorrow morning (with mushrooms!!!!)
> >> ....and....greasy but crisp grilled bacon!!!
> >>;->
> >>
> >>Soraya wrote:
> >>> Well, I got the whole bio-thing done, so all of you may now know more
> >about
> >>> me that you really want to....but now I can't find Patrick O'Tutu's
> email
> >>> addy.
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 00:46:52 1999
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X-Path: dircon.co.uk!bshep
From: "Brian Shepherd" <bshep@dircon.co.uk>
To: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>,
Subject: Re: Part 2-Grind/NoGrind (long)
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:21:14 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.82114.0>
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Hello

Years ago when the gas industry in UK was converting to natural gas every
appliance in the country had to be converted. At the same time vents had to
be fitted in countless windows - wherever there was an appliance!

They were circular and 5 or 6 inches diameter. I saw on several occasions
gas engineers cut these circles with the glass in situ.

They scored a circle - crossed a number of times through the middle and
simple tapped the centre!

I guess nobody told them it was impossible! I suppose if they had been
highly trained and skilled glass workers like us they wouldn't have even
tried it.

Best regards

BtB


>An did you know you could use a somewhat different version of relief lines
>to cut a fully enclosed circle out from inside a sheet of glass?  I have
had
>more glass teachers say that cutting a circle out from a sheet of glass
>while leaving the glass outside the circle whole and uncut is impossible.
>Not true!  (And you do not need fancy grinders or hole saws either).
>
>1. Score the circle, either free hand or with a compass or elliptical arm
>cutter.  The two ends of the score must meet perfectly.
>
>2. Score a few to several relief lines starting tangential to the circle
and
>spiraling inward toward the center.  Relief lines should spiral both ways
>such that when running the scores they come right up to the circle from
both
>directions and create an elliptical piece which can drop out.
>
>3. Now comes the weird part from a normal glass working point of view.
>Score a whole bunch of criss-crossing score lines in the center of the
>circle.  The area covered by these criss-crossed score lines needs to be
big
>enough for your grozing pliers to fit into the hole, but small enough so
any
>breaks extending out from them will still strike the relief lines at a
>shallow enough angle to run the relief scores.  Use an old cutter for this
>because scoring over the top of other score lines is really hard on a
>cutter.  We don't want you to ruin your expensive Toyo cutting wheel.
>
>4. Flip the glass over.  The pressure for the next step should be from the
>back side.  Also your glass must be resting absolutely flat on a clean flat
>work surface.  Any pressure points under the sheet of glass are going to
>fracture the whole thing.
>
>5. Take either an old style brass striking ball like comes on the end of
>some older style glass cutters or the ball side of a ball-peen hammer.
>Smash it into the center of the glass then rock it back and forth hard
>crushing out all those little chunks of glass between the criss-crossed
>score lines.  Do not be gentle here.  The more fracture lines you have
>running out to the spiral relief lines the easier the rest of the job will
>be.  I am very serious here - you are truly smashing out the area with the
>crossing score lines.  (Also, you MUST use eye protection here - the little
>chunks of glass fly out all over the place).
>
>6.  Now pressure run or tap all of the spiral relief lines out to where
they
>meet the circle at a tangent and as much as possible around the circle back
>to another relief line.  Use your grozing pliers to pull out all the
>tangential ellipses and any remaining cords inside the circle.
>
>I would suggest trying this on cheap flat glass first.  It does take some
>practice to get the feel of it.  Also the more textured the glass is the
>more difficult it becomes.  Textured glass will need a work surface which
>supports the glass and spreads the pressure points as evenly as possible.
>



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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 07:44:06 1999
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X-Path: cyf-kr.edu.pl!zekarasz
From: Pawel Karaszkiewicz <zekarasz@cyf-kr.edu.pl>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>, Steve <goldenlad@iname.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: ODP: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:16:08 +-100
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.15168.0>
Precedence: bulk



>>Any tips on taking apart an old panel are greatly welcomed.


Steve<<
Try to heat putty very gently using a hair dryer or (CAREFULLY) hot air =
blower  for paint removal. I use one with temerature control It usually =
softens putty enough to dismantle the panel. Work step by step, from the =
lead side not glass and  do not overheat the glass since it can crack. =
Prolonged soaking in water can be dangerous for glass paint.=20
Paint removers (solvent based) can be helpful in cleaning putty residues =
after dismantling - it is safer to use them then knives, sclapels and =
steel brushes still popular in some workshops.

Pawel
=20

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 09:03:27 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: ODP: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@[24.48.42.2]>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:37:11 +0000
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> Prolonged soaking in water can be dangerous for glass paint

That's why it's called the "universal solvent." <smile>

Albert
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From: "B.Lierath" <Lierath@compuserve.com>
To: List <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Thank you
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:45:48 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.84548.0>
Precedence: bulk

I was delighted to receive so many mails. May I take this opportunity to
say thank
you to all the new (mail) friends.
Normally I prefer sending individual mails, but due to this amount, I
divert to the list.
As my personal rule, I answer every mail or question individually unless
it was received by the list or I feel that the list will have a benefit o=
f
it.
Needless to say, that I will be more on the question side.
Another thing I have to clarify: Some of the group got the impression
that glass is our source of income. This is not the case. You have
to be well known as an artist or be a wholesaler to live on that income
without
restriction. I guess this impression was introduced with my limited
English.
Ok... here is the real world. My wife has the glass business and I work
in the engineering dept. of an airline. Otherwise we would not be able
to pay for the house, the cars, support our children and what else do I
know.
However may wife has proofed, that if you want to make some money with
glass, it can be done. Looking back to almost 16 years of amateur
experience,
she decided to be a pro 4 years ago. And she is proud to see a constant
increase in revenue each year. If it continues as it is right now, I will=

"retire" in four
years to be her assistant. <s>

Ok...to keep things alive, here is the first question for the group:

Does anyone knows about a publication of the glass artist Brian Blanthorn=
?
Be it a book or in the internet.

Burkhard  -  Berlin, Germany



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From: "James C. Kelly" <gcanvas@compuserve.com>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Wood frames
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:26:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.92634.0>
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Hi all,
I'm jumping out of lurker mode for
some more help.
Subject being wood framing of panels.
I have available to me from local
sources pine, poplar and oak
framing with channels as =

usually designed for stained glass.

1.  Specific question - I have been
asked to wood frame a 2 x 2 foot panel
currently framed in zinc.  Using =

1 3/8 framing size, can I use any of the =

above wood materials for this job.
2.  Non-specific - what are the =

wise limitations of pine and poplar
as framing materials for stained glass
if a panel is framed in lead and =

similarly if a panel is framed in zinc.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Jim
Jim Kelly
Virginia Beach VA
gcanvas@compuserve.com
Sunday, February 28, 1999
----
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 13:07:59 1999
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Breathing Safe & Cle
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:41:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.44113.0>
References: <<199902281249_MC2-6C27-7AF@compuserve.com>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> Regarding the ACTS data sheet Carol Swann wrote:
> 
> > Maybe this could be made available electronically on bungi...one post to the
> > whole group at no charge for postage.  Or maybe Albert could put it up on
> > the igga site or something, again cost free to your group.  What say you,
> > Monona?  Please use a good descriptive subject line so it can be easily
> > found in people's email files.
> > Carol Swann
> > Synergy Glass & Creative
> > http://www.igga.org/synergy
> > seaspray@island.net
> >
> 
> I have a system.  I have probably about 1000 pages of data sheets on various
> subjects in the computer.  I use them in response to FAQs and other
> inquiries.  Each time I print one out and send it, I look it over first.  If
> I see something I want to change or realize there is some new data that
> should be incorporated, I do it at that point.  Then I change the "revision
> date" that is on the first page of each data sheet.
> 
> This is a frequent occurrence because we get an average of 35 inquiries per
> day.
> 
> I will not put my things on the internet because I can't update all this
> stuff and versions I no longer want distributed will be floating about--for
> years possibly.
> 
> In addition, I have charts, footnotes, different type fonts for emphasis, and
> other graphics that do not translate well into everyone's e-mail receiver.  I
> am not about to have garbled versions floating about on top of it all.
> 
> And then there is the copyright problem.   Putting my stuff out on Bungi
> would compromise my control of the material.  It is interesting how the
> internet has given people the impression that writers work for nothing and
> give away their product.
> 
> If people want a data sheet, they'll get the latest version in a clean hard
> copy from one central place--ACTS.  In fact, those who write or teach with my
> materials should check in once a year to be sure they are using the latest
> version of each handout and renew their permission to reprint.
> 
> Making copies available free to Bungi's who ask or who send SASE's is the
> best I can do.  And happy I am to do it, too.
> 
> Monona Rossol
> ACTS
> 181 Thompson St., # 23
> New York NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062
75054.2542@compuserve.com
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Cutting circles
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:32:24 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.43224.0>
References: <<1999Feb28.82114.0>>
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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After all you see burglars do it all the time on TV shows!!!
Shirley B
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 14:10:01 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help with dissassembling a leaded panel.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@[24.48.42.2]>
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:41:00 +0000
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I was just asked privately about my comment regarding the removal of 
putty by first soaking a panel in water to soften the putty. Here's 
what I said:


Of course, you want to be careful with any panel that includes 
painted portions, but as for verifiable data ... decades of 
professional studios' experience? I refer you to Julie Sloan's 
"Conservation of Stained Glass in America," too: 

"To remove hardened putty from a disassembled window, try first soaking
the unpainted pieces in water to soften the putty. However, if the
putty contains Portland cement (a very hard, very white material
commonly used in putty and mortar), it must be removed mechanically by
careful chipping. It is very difficult to remove, has no known
solvents or softeners, and may not, in fact, come off." [ Art in 
Architecture Press, 1995 -- http://aiap.com/ ]

In fact, I just double-checked that with Julie. She confirms that 
water's usually used as the first step in softening recalcitrant 
putty for removal. Sometimes it just takes *tools! <smile>

I was thinking of unpainted glass ... or of painted portions where 
the paint's condition is good enough that soaking in water won't 
remove it. 

Albert



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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 14:24:31 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mosfunland
From: Mosfunland@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Nonglass, school project
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:40:45 EST
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.204045.0>
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I am sending this along to the list, only because its from a group of school
kids.  I realize our list has members from all over the world, and perhaps you
can drop them a note.  My apologies if I offend anyone by sending this, I
don't usually do it.  I can just imagine a map with all the pushpins in it.
They have a flag from Phila., PA now...  Maureen 

 We are a fourth grade class at Sieden Prairie School in Matteson, Illinois.
   Our class has 16 boys and 7 girls.  Our school has 360 students.
    We decided to map an email project for our school because we were curious
to see how far email can travel by Internet in the United States.
  Our project will last just two months, beginning January 22, 1999 and ending
  March 22, 1999
    We would like your help. We ask that:
    1. If you receive our email letter, could you email our class
  back telling us your location.  Our email address is....
fourthgrade4b@yahoo.com
  
    2. Also, please send our class letter on to 2 more people. >>
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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 14:39:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:07:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.12730.0>
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I forwarded some of the concerns to Jim at Spectrum and here
is his reply. ~  Dani

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:	INTERNET:matthews@spectrumglass.com, INTERNET:matthews@spectrumglas=
s.com
To:	Dani Greer, GreerStudios
	=

Date:	2/26/99  3:03 PM

RE:	Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports

Sender: matthews@spectrumglass.com
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Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:23:19 -0800
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Spectrum & Dynasty using Chinese imports

Hi Dani:  here is how I have responded to another who had a similar conce=
rn:

There is a company in China manufacturing 4 clear textures.  There is no
association with Spectrum other than the fact that Spectrum has aggreed t=
o
distribute their products.  We are doing so under the moniker "Express"
clear textures.  These glasses are not similar in composition to Spectrum=

and thus not compatible in terms of expansion.

The imports include only the four clear textures we advertised, nothing
else.  Waterglass=AE is not being manufactured offshore.  One of the impo=
rted
products is called "Venice."  It is somewhat similar to Waterglass, but o=
n
comparison the differences are evident.  Waterglass, clear and 25 or so
colors, is made only by Spectrum and only in Woodinville.

The differences between what we call "T-glass" and standard glass have
nothing to do with sheet size.  Waterglass always has narrower sheets, du=
e
to the stretching process that creates the texture.  The look of the
Waterglass varies somewhat; it is not a rolled, mechanical texture, but
instead a natural texture resulting from the stretching process.  Thus, i=
t
does look different from time to time and color to color.  We try to keep=

it consistent, within reason, but it is not unusual to see some variation=

From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 14:57:55 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Pkelly" <pkelly@n-link.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Today's Bios
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:08:25 -0500
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Patrick, don't you ever die!  I think I enjoy bungi as much for the tutu
jokes as anything else!  I told my husband that if we ever are all in the=

same place at the same time, he will have to sing his version of The
Wienershnitzel Waltz while you dance.  We'll all laugh until our glass
cracks!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "James C. Kelly" <gcanvas@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Wood frames
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:30:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.63043.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have only framed SG panels in oak. Oak as small in cross section as
1" X 1" (actual measure) should be fine for a 2' X 2' panel. Any
larger and I would want to move up to the 1" X 1 3/4" frame stock
commercialy available to me. Don't have any facts or figures on the
realitive strength of various woods. I don't think it makes much
difference if the panel is framed in zinc or lead. Bob
Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass: have class.
-----Original Message-----
From: James C. Kelly <gcanvas@compuserve.com>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, February 28, 1999 12:50 PM
Subject: Wood frames


>Hi all,
>I'm jumping out of lurker mode for
>some more help.
>Subject being wood framing of panels.
>I have available to me from local
>sources pine, poplar and oak
>framing with channels as =
>
>usually designed for stained glass.
>
>1.  Specific question - I have been
>asked to wood frame a 2 x 2 foot panel
>currently framed in zinc.  Using =
>
>1 3/8 framing size, can I use any of the =
>
>above wood materials for this job.
>2.  Non-specific - what are the =
>
>wise limitations of pine and poplar
>as framing materials for stained glass
>if a panel is framed in lead and =
>
>similarly if a panel is framed in zinc.
>
>Thanks in advance for any help.
>
>Jim
>Jim Kelly
>Virginia Beach VA
>gcanvas@compuserve.com
>Sunday, February 28, 1999
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sun Feb 28 23:15:53 1999
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:48:21 -0800 (PST)
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From: "Bob E Duchesneau" <BOBDU@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Shirley's List" <glass@intrastar.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Coments welcomed
Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:47:26 -0800
Message-ID: <1999Feb28.144726.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Pat and Kyles Projects
>>check it out would love coments , questions or suggestions
 http://www.media-net.net/ftpclients/lambdaep/test2/projectindex.htm
>>
I don't have an E-mail addy for this site but may come up with one.
They would "love comments". Well, we shall see! Check it out. Bob

Bob Duchesneau, Mountain Meadow Stained Glass 92026
Think glass: have class.

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