From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 07:59:14 1996
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From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass band saws
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 10:57:05 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961201105705.24801492@xavier.xu.edu>
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What would you all suggest in the way of Glass Band Saws for the
hobbist?  Any safety considerations?

Thanks
Elaine
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 08:29:35 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass band saws
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 11:27:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.6276.0>
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> What would you all suggest in the way of Glass Band Saws for the
> hobbist?  Any safety considerations?
> 
> Thanks
> Elaine
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


personnaly when my blade breaks on my current saw i'm going to get the
taurus 2 ring saw. mainly because it can cut in all directions without
turning the glass, it also has a very wide work surface. it sells for
about $400 or so. but that's acually pretty cheap compared to they're
other models.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 08:32:47 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 11:30:20 -0500
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For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
anyway).

---Mike Savad
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 09:04:23 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass band saws
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 12:03:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.7359.0>
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I have a Taurus II ring saw and just love it-same reasons as in Mike Savad's
reply, I find it will cut even the most difficult pieces, and will also cut
the Geode slices and shell slices that I use in some of my work.  There is
very little water splash back on the glass being cut, so no trouble with
pattern lines being washed away.

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 11:59:44 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Pattern Material
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 19:59:32 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.195932.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Just curious to know what comments anybody might have regarding pattern
material and sources.  I have used the oil board material (looks like
manilla folder) mostly, but it's kinda pricy, and only seems to be available
in 24" x 36" sheets.  I like it because it repels water and doesn't swell or
tear too easily when it gets wet.  Recently, we switched to 50lb brown kraft
paper (looks like brown paper bag material) because it is much cheaper and
comes on a roll 36" x 975ft. It's not the best when penciling a pattern in,
but works OK if you go back over it with a fine tip felt pen.  I also
started using it to wrap my customers glass in and that has been a big hit
because they feel like they're getting free pattern paper!  But, I'd rather
have some white paper on a roll and I can always hit the Thomas Register at
the local library, but thought I would check the bungi group first.  

Anybody know of any better pattern material at a good price?  Any good sources?

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 12:34:02 1996
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From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Pattern Material
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 14:33:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.83316.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mike and All!

I was using brown craft paper until I noticed that Sam's Wholesale Club
carries white butcher paper. It is barely waxed and takes a pencil or
marker line so much better than craft paper.....The roll is 18" wide, so
when I need it bigger, a little scotch or masking tape to the back joins
several lengths together quite nicely!

I have also noticed that if I use the original butcher-paper pattern to
assemble my final work, it does not seem to deteriorate as easily as
craft paper, and it is only a little more expensive when you purchase
the large rolls.

Give it a try!

Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 16:30:10 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: I am back.....
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 96 16:27:42 -0500
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Hello all, Howard here....
Anyone interested in a Gryphon Model C band saw, I can have one shipped from
my distributor for $295.00 plus shipping. 
Enjoy........it is only glass
--
New lamps added: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
http://www.best.com/~cbs/howard         

E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 16:44:41 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pattern Material
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 19:42:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.14426.0>
References: <<1996Dec1.195932.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Peck wrote:
> 
> Just curious to know what comments anybody might have regarding pattern
> material and sources.  I have used the oil board material (looks like
> manilla folder) mostly, but it's kinda pricy, and only seems to be available
> in 24" x 36" sheets.  I like it because it repels water and doesn't swell or
> tear too easily when it gets wet.  Recently, we switched to 50lb brown kraft
> paper (looks like brown paper bag material) because it is much cheaper and
> comes on a roll 36" x 975ft. It's not the best when penciling a pattern in,
> but works OK if you go back over it with a fine tip felt pen.  I also
> started using it to wrap my customers glass in and that has been a big hit
> because they feel like they're getting free pattern paper!  But, I'd rather
> have some white paper on a roll and I can always hit the Thomas Register at
> the local library, but thought I would check the bungi group first.
> 
> Anybody know of any better pattern material at a good price?  Any good sources?
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


try Tyvek, or house wrap. it's the stuff that 5-1/4" disk envelopes are
made from, tear resistant, water proof, comes in (i think) 4' rolls
(wide), length unknown. and can be written on as well.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 18:13:16 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: glass band saws
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:12:08 -0500
Message-ID: <199612020212.VAA13549@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
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Precedence: bulk

        Hi Elaine,  You asked about band saws... I bought a Diamond Tech
3000 this autumn and have been very disappointed in it.  I almost never use
it which is a ridiculous waste of a lot of money.  I find that even when I
turn off the top water delivery system and leave only a very little water in
the bottom reservoir, it still throws enough water onto the glass right in
front of the area that I'm cutting that I simply can't see where I'm going.
I posted a question about it to this group in Sept. and lots of people came
up with lots of good suggestions, including the one I finally used - to hook
up an aquarium air pump to blow the water out of the way - but it is still
not working well enough to be of any great use.  It's also difficult to clean. 
         I think if I were going out today to buy a saw I'd have a serious
look at the Taurus 11 based on what other people on this list have said
about it.

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From owner-glass Sun Dec  1 18:23:53 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Pattern Material
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 21:18:23 -0600
Message-ID: <199612020327.WAA19474@bones.brinet.com>
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We get our white paper on a roll from a local school supply store.  The
paper is what the cheerleaders use for their banners and such, takes a lot
to tear it.  Try your local school supply store, where the teachers go for
their supplies.

----------
> From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Pattern Material
> Date: Sunday, December 01, 1996 1:59 PM
> 
> 
> 
> Just curious to know what comments anybody might have regarding pattern
> material and sources.  I have used the oil board material (looks like
> manilla folder) mostly, but it's kinda pricy, and only seems to be
available
> in 24" x 36" sheets.  I like it because it repels water and doesn't swell
or
> tear too easily when it gets wet.  Recently, we switched to 50lb brown
kraft
> paper (looks like brown paper bag material) because it is much cheaper
and
> comes on a roll 36" x 975ft. It's not the best when penciling a pattern
in,
> but works OK if you go back over it with a fine tip felt pen.  I also
> started using it to wrap my customers glass in and that has been a big
hit
> because they feel like they're getting free pattern paper!  But, I'd
rather
> have some white paper on a roll and I can always hit the Thomas Register
at
> the local library, but thought I would check the bungi group first.  
> 
> Anybody know of any better pattern material at a good price?  Any good
sources?
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 01:05:18 1996
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From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: U.K. suppliers of Kokomo glass
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 09:04:56 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec2.9456.0>
References: <<199611281727.RAA01767@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Toby wrote:

>  Hello Mike (Simpson),
> Where in UK are you based??

Coventry. The only nearby suppliers of art glass is "Birmingham
Glass Studios", unfortunately their supply of art glass is limited.
I mostly use Tempsford Glass Supplies.


> 
> The first obvious place is James  Hetley & Co Ltd in London; special 
> "Mail Order"  tel. No. 0171- 780 2346. Gen. Fax No.: 0171-790-0201

This is a new one to me, I will phone them today.

> 
> Further afield...: Pearsons Glass Ltd in Liverpool: tel: 0151-207 
> 1474; fax: 0151- 207 2110
>                                                    in East Kilbride: 
> 013552-30175 (no fax)

I have visited Pearsons and know that they do Spectrum, Armstrong etc.
but not they supply art glass. They don't seem to do a catalogue.

> 
> Let me know how you get on....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 

Thanks for your help.

Mike.
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 05:16:28 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Thanks to All - What I'm up to.
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 08:16:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec2.31646.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Whether I have responded to you or not, I appreciate all the help I have 
gotten at Bungi. I've been at this only a couple of months but I am making 
Christmas presents, small boxes and kaliedoscopes. I'm venturing out and 
designing my own scopes, simple but at least different from the kits. I'm 
trying different ways of making hinges for the boxes. I like using spiraled 
copper wire rather than the tubing and rod hinges. The tube and rod is neat 
but it has no personality. I'm also decorating the box lids with spiraled 
wire. I couldn't be doing all this without the help and advise I have 
gotten from you all.

Thanks,
Linda Campbell



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`
end

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 07:24:58 1996
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From: ScottSGN@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pattern Material
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 10:24:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec2.52421.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Peck wrote:

>Just curious to know what comments anybody might have regarding pattern
>material and sources... (snip)... Recently, we switched to 50lb brown kraft
>paper (looks like brown paper bag material)... (snip)... But, I'd rather
>have some white paper on a roll... (snip)... Anybody know of any better
pattern
>material at a good price?  Any good sources?

Try checking with a local printing company that uses a "web" press (the kind
of press that prints on large rolls of paper). Quite often, they will have
(or can save for you) the ends of rolls that don't get used after they've
finished printing a job.  (Don't bother checking with a "quick print" shop or
copy shop... they only use single sheets of paper, not the big rolls.)

I recently requested some of these "end rolls" from my printer (for the
designer at my former studio) and the next day, we had 5-6 rolls that are
each about 40" wide. You may get anywhere from 20' to 200' of paper on these
rolls. The studio using these found them really handy when drawing big church
windows that were about 4.5' wide and 20' tall. They just unrolled two long
pieces of paper, taped them together, and were able to draw full size
patterns on the paper.

It's pretty common for most printers to have a nice medium-weight (maybe a
little heavier than copy paper) white stock in these rolls. Be sure to let
the printer know what you're after and what it's being used for. They
probably use different kinds of paper on a regular basis.

Price? I get them free (and delivered), BUT they get plenty of my money the
rest of the year! If they're nice folks, I'll bet most printers will let you
have them for nothing if you offer to pick them up at the printing company. I
do remember, in fact, being in a pinch once and getting some from a printer
that I'd never done business with before. Seems like it might have even been
Christmas Eve or some such unlikely time. They had some around, were glad to
part with them, and wished me a Happy Holidays!

Hope this helps... and Happy Holidays to all of YOU!

Scott
Stained Glass News
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 10:09:49 1996
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Subject: Subscribe
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 13:01:22 -0500
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 11:05:47 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 11:01:10 -0800
Message-ID: <199612021901.LAA09042@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>ms;
>        Interesting to here what you have to say about acids.  I had 
heard
>you could use muriatic acid, even got some, then lost the reference.  
Can
>you tell us more about proportions?  I accidently spilled some orange 
juice
>on something I was patina-ing with copper sulfate and water solution, 
and I
>thought it did work better... Meg
>
>>
>

The mix is a matter of preference. Just start with some copper sulfate 
crystals in a jar, add hot tap water, and mix. try the finish as you 
would using a comercial premix. as you add more muriatic to the mix you 
will see the darkness of the finish change. You need to vary the mix 
until it suits you. If you want to be precise about it, mix 
proportionaly and write down your formula. As I said we ususaly use it 
to match restored areas of old work so usualy mix on the fly until we 
achieve the desired effect ( using a little experience in knowing what 
to expect with various proportions.)

Good luck
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 14:30:52 1996
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From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: glass band saws
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 17:27:16 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961202172716.24c0219a@xavier.xu.edu>
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Thank you for your recommendation of the Taurus II...I need a suggestion
on where to buy the Taurus...my local glass shop only carries the 
Diamond brands.

Thanks!
Elaine
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 14:57:58 1996
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From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass band saws
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 15:00:25 -0800
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> Thank you for your recommendation of the Taurus II...I need a suggestion
> on where to buy the Taurus...my local glass shop only carries the
> Diamond brands.
> 
 Elaine;

We can have a Gemini Taurus ll drop shipped to you for $425.00 plus
actual shipping costs.  If you or anyone else is interested please
e-mail me at;
		dloda@fbo.com

Dave Loda
Stained Glass of Newport
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 19:00:09 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass band saws
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 21:55:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec2.165526.0>
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Elaine, 
Try Glass Crafters in Florida or Delphi both have Taurus II-Art Glass World
on the web has links to both web sites-and 800 #'s to order!
Good Luck,

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 19:11:53 1996
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Vacation
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 1996 19:07:24 PST
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Hi everyone,

Just a quick note to let you all know I will be on holidays
fromo Dec 2 - 21.  We are going to the Virgin Islands and I
will only be checking my mail sporadiclly.  Bye-bye.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  2 22:59:59 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 1996 23:25:01 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec2.16251.0>
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M. Savad wrote:
> 
> For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> anyway).
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassNice job Mike.
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 00:01:33 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 08:51:55 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.95155.0>
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M. Savad wrote:
> 
> For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> anyway).
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141

Great stuff!
I especially like the Heart of Atlantis and the Fish Table Lamp, a
Masterpiece in the medieval sense of the word.
A bit frustrating though that i can't see them 'live'! Internet proofs
to be a poor substitute in these cases. 

Martin Streng, the Netherlands.

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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 08:32:30 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 11:24:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.62454.0>
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Martin Streng wrote:
> 
> M. Savad wrote:
> >
> > For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> > the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> > anyway).
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> 
> Great stuff!
> I especially like the Heart of Atlantis and the Fish Table Lamp, a
> Masterpiece in the medieval sense of the word.
> A bit frustrating though that i can't see them 'live'! Internet proofs
> to be a poor substitute in these cases.
> 
> Martin Streng, the Netherlands.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah i know, it looks really great lit up (which of course it should),
the colors in the photo though came out pretty true, i had to do alot of
photo editing to make it look that good. i'm trying to think up a better
name than fish lamp, anyone have any ideas? i've thought of aquarius
themes, etc. i want something creative, but not to long.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 11:38:20 1996
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From: Rio Grande Valley Museum <rgvmuse@hiline.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:35:07 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.7357.0>
References: <<1996Dec3.62454.0>>
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M. Savad wrote:
> 
> Martin Streng wrote:
> >
> > M. Savad wrote:
> > >
> > > For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> > > the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> > > anyway).
> > >
> > > ---Mike Savad
> > > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> >
> > Great stuff!
> > I especially like the Heart of Atlantis and the Fish Table Lamp, a
> > Masterpiece in the medieval sense of the word.
> > A bit frustrating though that i can't see them 'live'! Internet proofs
> > to be a poor substitute in these cases.
> >
> > Martin Streng, the Netherlands.
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> yeah i know, it looks really great lit up (which of course it should),
> the colors in the photo though came out pretty true, i had to do alot of
> photo editing to make it look that good. i'm trying to think up a better
> name than fish lamp, anyone have any ideas? i've thought of aquarius
> themes, etc. i want something creative, but not to long.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

Mike, depending on "where" your fish are from, what about something like
"Carribean Reef"  - or send a pic of it to some of the scuba newsgroups
- you'll get all sorts of names.  I was really impressed -  stuff looks
wonderful.
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 11:50:53 1996
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From: Rio Grande Valley Museum <rgvmuse@hiline.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 13:47:27 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.74727.0>
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Rio Grande Valley Museum wrote:
> 
> M. Savad wrote:
> >
> > Martin Streng wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Savad wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> > > > the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> > > > anyway).
> > > >
> > > > ---Mike Savad
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > >
> > > Great stuff!
> > > I especially like the Heart of Atlantis and the Fish Table Lamp, a
> > > Masterpiece in the medieval sense of the word.
> > > A bit frustrating though that i can't see them 'live'! Internet proofs
> > > to be a poor substitute in these cases.
> > >
> > > Martin Streng, the Netherlands.
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > yeah i know, it looks really great lit up (which of course it should),
> > the colors in the photo though came out pretty true, i had to do alot of
> > photo editing to make it look that good. i'm trying to think up a better
> > name than fish lamp, anyone have any ideas? i've thought of aquarius
> > themes, etc. i want something creative, but not to long.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> > --
> > Mike's Stained Glass
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> Mike, depending on "where" your fish are from, what about something like
> "Carribean Reef"  - or send a pic of it to some of the scuba newsgroups
> - you'll get all sorts of names.  I was really impressed -  stuff looks
> wonderful.
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 12:12:47 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff-name for the lamp
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 21:02:09 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.2229.0>
References: <<1996Dec3.7357.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

What about "Sealight". Now my English is not so good, but with this name
i´m trying to make a link to the sea, seeing the light, light....

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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 12:42:08 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 1996 15:10:00 -0500
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W	 W  	O	W     W
 W W W  O  O	 W W W
  W W    	O	  W W


That's GREAT stuff.

Linda Campbell
----------
For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
anyway).

---Mike Savad
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 14:38:25 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:31:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.123149.0>
References: <<1996Dec3.7357.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Rio Grande Valley Museum wrote:
> 
> M. Savad wrote:
> >
> > Martin Streng wrote:
> > >
> > > M. Savad wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> > > > the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> > > > anyway).
> > > >
> > > > ---Mike Savad
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > >
> > > Great stuff!
> > > I especially like the Heart of Atlantis and the Fish Table Lamp, a
> > > Masterpiece in the medieval sense of the word.
> > > A bit frustrating though that i can't see them 'live'! Internet proofs
> > > to be a poor substitute in these cases.
> > >
> > > Martin Streng, the Netherlands.
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > yeah i know, it looks really great lit up (which of course it should),
> > the colors in the photo though came out pretty true, i had to do alot of
> > photo editing to make it look that good. i'm trying to think up a better
> > name than fish lamp, anyone have any ideas? i've thought of aquarius
> > themes, etc. i want something creative, but not to long.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> > --
> > Mike's Stained Glass
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> Mike, depending on "where" your fish are from, what about something like
> "Carribean Reef"  - or send a pic of it to some of the scuba newsgroups
> - you'll get all sorts of names.  I was really impressed -  stuff looks
> wonderful.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


you know i'm not sure where the fish come from, i choose the prettiest
most colorfull ones. a fish expert would probably say they don't swim in
the same water, but the coloring should be accurate. mainly i want to
get a name that fits the shade, but also fit's the base. i was thinging
lamp of aquarius, or neptunes lamp, but some of those sound silly to
me..

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 14:40:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff-name for the lamp
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 17:33:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.123333.0>
References: <<1996Dec3.2229.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Martin Streng wrote:
> =

> What about "Sealight". Now my English is not so good, but with this nam=
e
> i=B4m trying to make a link to the sea, seeing the light, light....
> =

> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

welp i'll think about it, and it's ok my english is'nt to good either,
and i speak english...;)

---Mike Savad

-- =

Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 17:19:39 1996
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From: "Jennifer C. Grahn" <JCGRAHN@vetmed.wsu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date:          Tue, 3 Dec 1996 17:14:52 PST8PDT
Message-ID: <1970Jan1.000.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Jen,

Are you in Pullman?   If you are I am over in the Puyallup area.

Yup, I am.  Seems like a small world sometimes, doesn't it.

Walt, I'll email you about the lamp group, but it sounds great.

I wanted to thank everyone for their input.  I didn't realize I could 
get it at my local glass shop.  I check it out there.  

Thanks again,

Jen
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 18:12:19 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Want to review a book?
Date: 03 Dec 96 21:06:33 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.2633.0>
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Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals Stained Glass
Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans.  Anyone interested
in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself?  And fame, of course, since the
review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass, the Guild's
newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's web site.

If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g>  The decision
will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for your comments
by next week.  Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful, would you use
them, etc.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 18:32:46 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 21:26:10 -0500
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
> Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals Stained Glass
> Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans.  Anyone interested
> in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself?  And fame, of course, since the
> review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass, the Guild's
> newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's web site.
> 
> If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g>  The decision
> will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for your comments
> by next week.  Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful, would you use
> them, etc.
> 
> Albert
>                 __________________________________________
>                 Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                 International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                 __________________________________________
>                      http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


sure i'd be intrested, i'm good with patterns, and good at identifying,
a good pattern from a bad one..

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 18:41:27 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike Savad's new STUFF
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 03:03:28 +0000
Message-ID: <199612040237.CAA09244@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Wow Mike!!
Of course I have had a "peep"! I do like your cars - always did. They 
are really quite exquisite!!
Heart of Atlantis is one of my other new favourites. Lovely!!
But DO tell  me - what on EARTH is a Hugs Kiss....? And how BIG is a 
kiss??? My mind boggles - how do you MEASURE a kiss??? From "Across 
the Pond", I am obviously missing something.... (Martin, I'm in the 
same boat as you are!)..... No Mike, there is NOTHING wrong with YOUR 
English.... but you possibly  / conceivably  ... could... improve 
your punctuation , full stops and "comma techniques"......
FISH LAMP: it sound awful - I quite agree. Almost 250 hours and about 
2,380 pieces of glass!!! It deserves a far better name than - just - 
FISH LAMP!!!!
Stunning!! My compliments as regards the photography. I have 6 - 8 
panels waiting to be added to my Web-page, ALL delayed becaused of 
inadequate photography. Stained Glass is a fiendish difficult thing 
to photograph.
Let's get our Thinking Caps on. Martin is on the right tracks I 
think..: ideas:
Water Life
Water Light
Marine Lamp
Marine Life
Light of the Sea
Sea Exposure
Sights to Sea
See Light
Sea Light
Salty Visions
Visions of Salt
I could go on - but let's hear from the rest of you.... Let's 
brain-storm...  Mike's Lamp NEEDS a NAME........
Elisabeth & Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec  3 19:10:17 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike Savad's new STUFF
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 1996 22:03:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec3.1737.0>
References: <<199612040237.CAA09244@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
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Toby wrote:
> 
> Wow Mike!!
> Of course I have had a "peep"! I do like your cars - always did. They
> are really quite exquisite!!
> Heart of Atlantis is one of my other new favourites. Lovely!!
> But DO tell  me - what on EARTH is a Hugs Kiss....? And how BIG is a
> kiss??? My mind boggles - how do you MEASURE a kiss??? From "Across
> the Pond", I am obviously missing something.... (Martin, I'm in the
> same boat as you are!)..... No Mike, there is NOTHING wrong with YOUR
> English.... but you possibly  / conceivably  ... could... improve
> your punctuation , full stops and "comma techniques"......
> FISH LAMP: it sound awful - I quite agree. Almost 250 hours and about
> 2,380 pieces of glass!!! It deserves a far better name than - just -
> FISH LAMP!!!!
> Stunning!! My compliments as regards the photography. I have 6 - 8
> panels waiting to be added to my Web-page, ALL delayed becaused of
> inadequate photography. Stained Glass is a fiendish difficult thing
> to photograph.
> Let's get our Thinking Caps on. Martin is on the right tracks I
> think..: ideas:
> Water Life
> Water Light
> Marine Lamp
> Marine Life
> Light of the Sea
> Sea Exposure
> Sights to Sea
> See Light
> Sea Light
> Salty Visions
> Visions of Salt
> I could go on - but let's hear from the rest of you.... Let's
> brain-storm...  Mike's Lamp NEEDS a NAME........
> Elisabeth & Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i guess they don't have hershey's chocolate on the other side of the
earth.. a hugs, is a hershey kiss with white chocolate stripped in. it
in fact looks alot like my box..(imagine that), the candy is about 3/4 x
3/4". as for the lamp, i want to try to give it a more mytholical name,
(or however you spell it), like naming it after a god, that's why i
thought of aquarius, or neptune. the top part is the underwater theme,
the base is more building like. the problem is any architecture that may
look like that, does'nt have any fish near by. for my punctuation, i
kinda like it, it's commalisious. hopefully soon they integrate spelling
and punctuation into future versions of netscape. 

for the photo's, my pictures came out pretty well, except for the
antique car (the grey one), which was too blurred to do anything about.
after scanning and editing, i used photoshop to fix up color, remove
flash marks, in the shop pix i edited out a chair. soon i'll probably
add the other side of the lamp, and possibly two of my more recent
panels.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 00:34:28 1996
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From: Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike Savad's new STUFF
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 96 14:44:14 +1100
Message-ID: <199612040830.TAA18068@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
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In <199612040237.CAA09244@linux.nildram.co.uk>, on 12/04/96 at 03:03 AM,
   "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk> said:

>Wow Mike!!

[edit[

>I could go on - but let's hear from the rest of you.... Let's 
>brain-storm...  Mike's Lamp NEEDS a NAME........

Luminsea


~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~
Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9222 1124, Mobile: 041 111 6636 
OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)                               
 ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~

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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 02:43:03 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Mike's Lamp
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 11:33:00 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.12330.0>
References: <<199612040830.TAA18068@mail.mel.aone.net.au>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Apparently in the name there should be a link with both the base and de
shade. Buildings under water usually remind me of Atlantis. Perhaps
"Atlantis Light" is a bit too obvious, but surely there are some aspects
of the Atlantis legend that you can use.
For example: Lost Continent, Endless Search, Helgolamp (from Helgoland),
Zeus' Revenge or something like that.

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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 05:40:15 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 07:32:15 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961203150147.2647536a@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 11:01 AM 12/2/96 -0800, you wrote:
>You wrote: 
>>
>>ms;
>>        Interesting to here what you have to say about acids.  I had 
>heard
>>you could use muriatic acid, even got some, then lost the reference.  
>Can
>>you tell us more about proportions?  I accidently spilled some orange 
>juice
>>on something I was patina-ing with copper sulfate and water solution, 
>and I
>>thought it did work better... Meg
>>
>>>
>>
>
>The mix is a matter of preference. Just start with some copper sulfate 
>crystals in a jar, add hot tap water, and mix. try the finish as you 
>would using a comercial premix. as you add more muriatic to the mix you 
>will see the darkness of the finish change. You need to vary the mix 
>until it suits you. If you want to be precise about it, mix 
>proportionaly and write down your formula. As I said we ususaly use it 
>to match restored areas of old work so usualy mix on the fly until we 
>achieve the desired effect ( using a little experience in knowing what 
>to expect with various proportions.)
>
>Good luck

I am always wary with chemicals.... do you add the acid to the water/sulfate
mix, or the water to the acid.. or does it matter.... thanks.. Meg

>----
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>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 07:24:15 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:17:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.5179.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.12330.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Martin Streng wrote:
> 
> Apparently in the name there should be a link with both the base and de
> shade. Buildings under water usually remind me of Atlantis. Perhaps
> "Atlantis Light" is a bit too obvious, but surely there are some aspects
> of the Atlantis legend that you can use.
> For example: Lost Continent, Endless Search, Helgolamp (from Helgoland),
> Zeus' Revenge or something like that.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

welp i thought of atlantis, but i already named a box atlantis, and two
things with the same name don't sound right. kinda like george formans
kids that are all named george.  BTW what's Helgoland?  never heard of
it...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 07:25:12 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 10:18:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.51826.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961203150147.2647536a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> At 11:01 AM 12/2/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >You wrote:
> >>
> >>ms;
> >>        Interesting to here what you have to say about acids.  I had
> >heard
> >>you could use muriatic acid, even got some, then lost the reference.
> >Can
> >>you tell us more about proportions?  I accidently spilled some orange
> >juice
> >>on something I was patina-ing with copper sulfate and water solution,
> >and I
> >>thought it did work better... Meg
> >>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >The mix is a matter of preference. Just start with some copper sulfate
> >crystals in a jar, add hot tap water, and mix. try the finish as you
> >would using a comercial premix. as you add more muriatic to the mix you
> >will see the darkness of the finish change. You need to vary the mix
> >until it suits you. If you want to be precise about it, mix
> >proportionaly and write down your formula. As I said we ususaly use it
> >to match restored areas of old work so usualy mix on the fly until we
> >achieve the desired effect ( using a little experience in knowing what
> >to expect with various proportions.)
> >
> >Good luck
> 
> I am always wary with chemicals.... do you add the acid to the water/sulfate
> mix, or the water to the acid.. or does it matter.... thanks.. Meg


although i'm no expert, you must not add water to acid, because i think
the acid can boil over. you have to add the acid to the water.

---Mike Savad


-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 07:56:17 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp/Helgoland
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 16:46:44 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.174644.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.5179.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Mike Savad wrote:

> BTW what's Helgoland?  never heard of
> it...
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --

Helgoland is the Dutch word for a (mythical?) land where a lot of people
thought Atlantis was located. Perhaps the English use another word for
it. Not bothered by books and so, i think there was a great search for
Atlantis in the mid 19th century, exercised by very wealthy people and
concentrating on Helgoland.
This story in itself is allready a mith of its own, so if you would like
to hear more about it i will look it up in our local library.

Martin Streng
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 09:23:55 1996
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From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Date: Wed,  4 Dec 96 10:19:11 -0700
Message-ID: <m0vVKyX-000LiFC@why.az.stratus.com>
References: <<1996Dec4.2633.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

You wrote:
> Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals Stained
> Glass Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans. Anyone
> interested in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself? And fame, of
> course, since the review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground:
> Glass, the Guild's newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's
> web site.
>
> If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g> The
> decision will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for
> your comments by next week. Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful,
> would you use them, etc.
>
> Albert
> __________________________________________
> Albert Lewis            Executive Director
> International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
> __________________________________________
> <http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
>


oooh, yes. my wife and i do lots of bird, fish, and animal pieces. we belong  
to the desert marine society, and surprisingly lots of the people who have  
aquariums also have lots of birds like parrots, macaws, toucans, etc.

---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Customer Assistance Center
Stratus Computer, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 09:41:06 1996
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From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Wed,  4 Dec 96 10:36:22 -0700
Message-ID: <m0vVLF9-000LiFC@why.az.stratus.com>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961203150147.2647536a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

You wrote:
> I am always wary with chemicals.... do you add the acid to the water/sulfate
> mix, or the water to the acid.. or does it matter.... thanks.. Meg

you always add acid to water, never the reverse. the way to remember this is  
alphabetical order; a->w

the chemicals cause an exothermic (giving off heat) reaction. by adding a  
drop of water to acid, you can cause localized boiling which depends upon the  
strength of the acid. this boiling can cause spattering of the material you  
are adding the acid to. this means you could be spattering acid all over. not  
good.

---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Customer Assistance Center
Stratus Computer, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 10:22:07 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 13:19:29 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.51929.0>
References: <<m0vVLF9-000LiFC@why.az.stratus.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Charles Spitzer from the Stratus computer wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> > I am always wary with chemicals.... do you add the acid to the 
>water/sulfate mix, or the water to the acid.. or does it matter.... 
>thanks.. Meg
> 
> you always add acid to water, never the reverse. the way to remember 
>this is alphabetical order; a->w
> 
> the chemicals cause an exothermic (giving off heat) reaction. by adding 
> drop of water to acid, you can cause localized boiling which depends 
>upon the strength of the acid. this boiling can cause spattering of the 
>material you are adding the acid to. this means you could be spattering 
>acid all over. not good. 


Hi John,

We are going to use this method of patina for lead came but they didn't 
seem to know exactly how to handle it safely till Charles posted. It's 
coppper sulfate (acid) we wanted to sure he is correct acid into the 
water? It's not not that dangerous is it? 


April
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 10:51:36 1996
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 13:47:00 -0500
Message-ID: <9612041847.AA04270@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>
>Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals Stained
Glass
>Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans.  Anyone
interested
>in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself?  And fame, of course,
since the
>review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass, the Guild's
>newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's web site.
>
>If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g>  The
decision
>will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for your comments
>by next week.  Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful, would you use
>them, etc.
>
Hi>Albert, <BG>
>                We would be happy to review the publication for you..
Why we should be the lucky ones????......Well I guess our twenty years of
experience in designing should help.  I guess that we have probably taught
over a couple hundred students in that time? 

my best,
pj


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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 11:02:19 1996
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X-Path: primeline.com!vgplugs
From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Patina over Patina
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 14:02:49 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.6249.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi, 

We need to match the solder joints to brass came. Would like to use own 
solution less$$ but not chemically knowledgeable. Have been trying 
to follow discussion but I must be missing some posts. Does the 
muriatic acid work? April  
-- 
****************
April 
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 15:22:00 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over Patina
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 18:14:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.131457.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.6249.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

April Paine wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> We need to match the solder joints to brass came. Would like to use own
> solution less$$ but not chemically knowledgeable. Have been trying
> to follow discussion but I must be missing some posts. Does the
> muriatic acid work? April
> --
> ****************
> April
> vgplugs@primeline.com
> In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

you'll probably never get the solder to look brass. comercial brass
patinaes never look brass. the only official way is to have them
electroplated, but it's just not worth it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 16:32:23 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 19:31:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.143153.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike, 
How about Nautilis (sp) Lens?  BTW, your new works are AWESOME!!!!!!!!  WOW,
Gives me a standard to aim for.  Such wonderful work.  Hope to see some of
your work in person someday.   

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 17:30:35 1996
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From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.152948.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.5179.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Anybody suggest Poseidon?

Where's Elisabeth with her pantheon of Swedish or other Norsk gods? How
about something celtic? 

Wish I could see this lamp, however my service lacks graphics.... sigh.

Mary



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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 18:00:50 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass band saws
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:55:12 -0600
Message-ID: <199612050303.WAA10206@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My husband swears by last years Christmas gift a Gryphon.

----------
> From: Elaine Crable, 745-2029 <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: RE: glass band saws
> Date: Monday, December 02, 1996 4:27 PM
> 
> Thank you for your recommendation of the Taurus II...I need a suggestion
> on where to buy the Taurus...my local glass shop only carries the 
> Diamond brands.
> 
> Thanks!
> Elaine
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 18:07:22 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 21:01:39 -0600
Message-ID: <199612050310.WAA10254@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Would be happy to review the pattern book.  My husbands large  project was
out of a Wildlife book.  My snail mail address is: K. Sagy, 1023 W. Blue
Ridge Rd., EFR, NC 28726

----------
> From: Albert Lewis [IGGA] <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Want to review a book?
> Date: Tuesday, December 03, 1996 8:06 PM
> 
> 
> Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals
Stained Glass
> Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans.  Anyone
interested
> in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself?  And fame, of course,
since the
> review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass, the
Guild's
> newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's web site.
> 
> If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g>  The
decision
> will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for your
comments
> by next week.  Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful, would you
use
> them, etc.
> 
> Albert
>                 __________________________________________
>                 Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                 International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                 __________________________________________
>                      http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 18:17:15 1996
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X-Path: arn.net!loveta
From: "Loveta Elmore" <loveta@arn.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: solder joints with brass
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:19:52 -0600
Message-ID: <199612050214.UAA06678@arnet.arn.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi April

Only small projects should be brass plated.  Many of my customers do 
angels,  small suncatchers,  small size projects etc.  which I send to my
plater.  This is a very dangerous  process that is governed by OSHA.

It is expensive if you only have a few pieces but I let my customers  pool
together and when  there is enough they are plated as a entire order and is
very reasonable.

To do a big window is another ballgame.  It is not worth the trouble or
expense.

The only practical solution to solder joints on brass, is a gold pen you
can buy at Michael's. Hobby Lobby, or anywhere that sells  felt tip pens.

You can paint the solder joints with it.  The secret is the shaking.  If
you shake the pen enough, it is the exact color of brass.  If it isn't
matching, you didn't shake long enough.

But remember. if you go in to a nice furniture store,  all the solder
joints  show in furniture with brass inserts.  When a brass window is
installed, the solder joints do not show from the inside, your eye
perceives it as all brass because of the light coming through.  

Usually the only time I use the brass pens is on elegant entries that you
walk up to and you feel like the solder joints show up too much.
If you make your  joints very neat and small the silver color solder shows
up very little.  Remember to turn your iron up.  It takes more heat to
solder brass,

Loveta
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 18:18:28 1996
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From: "Loveta Elmore" <loveta@arn.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 1996 20:21:23 -0600
Message-ID: <199612050215.UAA06846@arnet.arn.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am curious.  what do you think of it?

Loveta
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From owner-glass Wed Dec  4 20:49:29 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike Savad's new STUFF
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 1996 21:17:58 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec4.141758.0>
References: <<1996Dec3.1737.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

M. Savad wrote:
> 
> Toby wrote:
> >
> > Wow Mike!!
> > Of course I have had a "peep"! I do like your cars - always did. They
> > are really quite exquisite!!
> > Heart of Atlantis is one of my other new favourites. Lovely!!
> > But DO tell  me - what on EARTH is a Hugs Kiss....? And how BIG is a
> > kiss??? My mind boggles - how do you MEASURE a kiss??? From "Across
> > the Pond", I am obviously missing something.... (Martin, I'm in the
> > same boat as you are!)..... No Mike, there is NOTHING wrong with YOUR
> > English.... but you possibly  / conceivably  ... could... improve
> > your punctuation , full stops and "comma techniques"......
> > FISH LAMP: it sound awful - I quite agree. Almost 250 hours and about
> > 2,380 pieces of glass!!! It deserves a far better name than - just -
> > FISH LAMP!!!!
> > Stunning!! My compliments as regards the photography. I have 6 - 8
> > panels waiting to be added to my Web-page, ALL delayed becaused of
> > inadequate photography. Stained Glass is a fiendish difficult thing
> > to photograph.
> > Let's get our Thinking Caps on. Martin is on the right tracks I
> > think..: ideas:
> > Water Life
> > Water Light
> > Marine Lamp
> > Marine Life
> > Light of the Sea
> > Sea Exposure
> > Sights to Sea
> > See Light
> > Sea Light
> > Salty Visions
> > Visions of Salt
> > I could go on - but let's hear from the rest of you.... Let's
> > brain-storm...  Mike's Lamp NEEDS a NAME........
> > Elisabeth & Toby
> > ----
> > As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> > North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> > http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> > ----
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> i guess they don't have hershey's chocolate on the other side of the
> earth.. a hugs, is a hershey kiss with white chocolate stripped in. it
> in fact looks alot like my box..(imagine that), the candy is about 3/4 x
> 3/4". as for the lamp, i want to try to give it a more mytholical name,
> (or however you spell it), like naming it after a god, that's why i
> thought of aquarius, or neptune. the top part is the underwater theme,
> the base is more building like. the problem is any architecture that may
> look like that, does'nt have any fish near by. for my punctuation, i
> kinda like it, it's commalisious. hopefully soon they integrate spelling
> and punctuation into future versions of netscape.
> 
> for the photo's, my pictures came out pretty well, except for the
> antique car (the grey one), which was too blurred to do anything about.
> after scanning and editing, i used photoshop to fix up color, remove
> flash marks, in the shop pix i edited out a chair. soon i'll probably
> add the other side of the lamp, and possibly two of my more recent
> panels.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassName for your fish lamp?  Hooked!   T. in Montana
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 06:48:54 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 09:45:52 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.44552.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.152948.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> 
> Anybody suggest Poseidon?


How about Trident's radiance?  Poseidon's Passion?

Joyce
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 06:53:33 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 09:50:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.45059.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.143153.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

LNETWORKS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> How about Nautilis (sp) Lens?  BTW, your new works are AWESOME!!!!!!!!  WOW,
> Gives me a standard to aim for.  Such wonderful work.  Hope to see some of
> your work in person someday.
> 
> Lee Boe
> Rain-Boe's Creations
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


hmmm... there's already a nautilis lamp, and it's a big shell (tiffany.
i decided to just finnally put up my newest work already. i was tired of
mentioned what i did on my lamp, when all i had was those little cars
up.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 06:54:52 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 09:52:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.45223.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.152948.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> 
> Anybody suggest Poseidon?
> 
> Where's Elisabeth with her pantheon of Swedish or other Norsk gods? How
> about something celtic?
> 
> Wish I could see this lamp, however my service lacks graphics.... sigh.
> 
> Mary
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

what you could try is downloading just the graphic, there should be at
least a link there for it. and it's only about a 20k file or so...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 07:00:16 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 09:57:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.45736.0>
References: <<1996Dec5.44552.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> >
> > Anybody suggest Poseidon?
> 
> How about Trident's radiance?  Poseidon's Passion?
> 
> Joyce
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
called it what they were.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 07:23:40 1996
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X-Path: aol.com!Guitarshop
From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: New Photos Added
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:23:10 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.52310.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Greetings To All:

     After viewing the awsome work that Mike Savad had done, I was inspired
to ad a few new photos to our own web page.  I especially enjoyed the "Fish
Lamp" and the '57 Chevy (since I own a real '57 Chevy -Red and White 2 Door).
 I have had aquariums, both salt and fresh water, for about 15 years.  I was
especially impressed with the realism that Mike achieved.  Well Done!!!

     If anyone is interested in seeing some of our humble works, the URL is:

     HTTP://members.gnn.com/Guitarshop

                        or

     HTTP://members.aol.com/Guitarshop

   Please take a minute to give 'em a look,

Thanks,

Michael & Donna 
Shattered Images Studio
Houston,TX
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 07:39:35 1996
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X-Path: xavier.xu.edu!CRABLE
From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:37:12 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961205103712.25200cbf@xavier.xu.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
Thanks
Elaine
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 07:57:04 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 10:57:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.55744.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Simple,eh? How about "ocean"? Your works are fantastic!

Linda Campbell


hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
called it what they were.

---Mike Savad

-- 

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
M>)\^(C /`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0`
M`@````(``@`!!) &``@!```!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/
M`0```#T`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!G;&%S<T!B=6YG:2YC
M;VT`4TU44 !G;&%S<T!B=6YG:2YC;VT`````'@`", $````%````4TU44 ``
M```>``,P`0```! ```!G;&%S<T!B=6YG:2YC;VT``P`5# $````#`/X/!@``
M`!X``3 !````$@```"=G;&%S<T!B=6YG:2YC;VTG`````@$+, $````5````
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M````! ````````-\*P$(@ <`& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E
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M.$(V,S$P0S<Q-$5$,#$Q0D)%,# P1$0P,3$U.35#. `2!P$#D 8`2 ,``!(`
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M<" 1)' ",&\D]RP=<(\FD"FP)%(J$6]O:R8A8PJ%`9!C:WDD("FQ9?YV!) =
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>0"Q;Y\3BNP$>`#T``0````4```!213H@`````$G7
`
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 08:00:31 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 10:57:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.55747.0>
References: <<961205103712.25200cbf@xavier.xu.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
> because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
> Thanks
> Elaine
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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i'm assuming this is a foil panel. to do this you have to score the
peice you want to remove, tap it on the back, so all the lines are
cracked. melt the solder around the piece on both sides. care fully
remove the broken glass, (BTW this step can also be used before the
melting of the excess solder). melt and remove the rest of the solder
and old foil. clean the opening, trace and foil your new glass and
solder in place.  as for lead i really don't know.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 08:06:16 1996
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From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 16:04:08 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <9612051604.AA23489@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<961205103712.25200cbf@xavier.xu.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
> because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?

What I've usually seen recommended: score glass with cutter several
times. break glass, remove sections of old glass; either bend back
came or remove old foil by using soldering iron. Make new pattern from
hole, cut glass, check against hole, foil if appropriate, and replace. 

I've never tried it myself, so probably someone more experienced can
give a more detailed explanation :-).

-- 
   _|_   Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  / |    Hemel Hempstead, UK    jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
  \_|_                          www.selune.demon.co.uk  (soon)
\__/     -----------------------------------------------------
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 09:01:13 1996
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X-Path: snowcrest.net!beermug
From: beermug@snowcrest.net (Paul Deutsch)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: travel cheap
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:00:26 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199612051700.JAA29869@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hey John,
Remember me telling you about that gal that traveled to Europe so 
inexpensively?  She's still doing her seminars and now she has a web page, 
check out

http://www.netexcel.com/sea-air/

I've been to several of her seminars and she's full of good ideas.

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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 09:08:43 1996
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From: beermug@snowcrest.net (Paul Deutsch)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Sorry
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:07:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199612051707.JAA00332@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Ooops, sorry, wrong nickname, sent previous message to wrong person.

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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 09:28:32 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Book Review
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 12:27:30 -0500
Message-ID: <199612051727.MAA11901@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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        Hi Albert,
        I'd be happy to review the book, but I'd already ordered it several
months ago from Amazon.com when they first put it on their list.  Naturally
it wasn't out then and I had to wait, however they've just notified me that
it is now "in the mail'.  I certainly don't need a second copy but, if you
like,I'll let you know what I think of it when it arrives.   Regards,   Jennifer

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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 11:16:03 1996
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From: roadrunner47@juno.com (Jacque E Smith)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 14:12:20 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.191220.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.12330.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

How about Pacific Pride,  Pacific Dream, Atlantic Lights... Fish
Frolic???
Waterworld, Sea Life,  Ocean view....Ouch getting worse..well
...Roadrunner...
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 11:59:56 1996
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From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Thu,  5 Dec 96 12:59:20 -0700
Message-ID: <m0vVjx7-000LiFC@why.az.stratus.com>
References: <<1996Dec5.55747.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

You wrote:
> as for lead i really don't know.

i've used this technique for replacing pieces out of a lead panel:

cut the crown off the backside of the panel around the piece in question.  
crack and break out the piece. use a dremel tool to get out all the old putty  
if it's hard. if it's not hard, then you don't have to remove the putty. cut  
the new piece so it will fit in the hole. you then cut the crown off a new  
piece of lead and solder the ends in place. try to leave a little bit of the  
heart of the lead so that it will fit down the crack between the old putty  
and new piece of glass. if necessary, reputty around that piece.

it won't be as strong in that place, but it can be almost undetectable.

---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Customer Assistance Center
Stratus Computer, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 14:41:47 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 17:39:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.12395.0>
References: <<1996Dec5.55744.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Simple,eh? How about "ocean"? Your works are fantastic!
> 
> Linda Campbell
> 
> hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
> i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
> tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
> called it what they were.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> 
>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>                Encoding: x-uuencode
> 
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umm i dunno, that may be too simple. :)  right now i'm editing some
other stuff that'll be going up, including some of my panels.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 14:51:29 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 1996 17:48:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec5.124854.0>
References: <<1996Dec5.191220.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jacque E Smith wrote:
> 
> How about Pacific Pride,  Pacific Dream, Atlantic Lights... Fish
> Frolic???
> Waterworld, Sea Life,  Ocean view....Ouch getting worse..well
> ...Roadrunner...
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

pacific may be good, if i just knew if they were all fish from there,
but then again i could use my artistic license...:)

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:21:35 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Mike's Lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:46:18 +0000
Message-ID: <199612060120.BAA22952@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Mike said:

hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
called it what they were.

OK, so nice and simple: "Midgards Lamp"  (Meaning: Lamp of the Middle 
Earth - i.e. the Sea)
..We're all trying... we'll get there in the end...
Elisabeth
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:21:35 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike Savad's new STUFF
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:46:18 +0000
Message-ID: <199612060120.BAA22947@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I guess they don't have hershey's chocolate on the other side of the
> earth.. a hugs, is a hershey kiss with white chocolate stripped in. it
> in fact looks alot like my box..(imagine that), the candy is about 3/4 x
> 3/4".>>>
Thanks for the Info Mike..... SOME Chocolate!!. Makes me drool.
..And I don't even eat the stuff!!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:21:36 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:46:18 +0000
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mary wrote:

<<Anybody suggest Poseidon?

Where's Elisabeth with her pantheon of Swedish or other Norsk gods? How
about something celtic? 

Wish I could see this lamp, however my service lacks graphics.... 
sigh.>>

Hi Mary,
Don't worry; Elisabeth did put in her 2 cents worth. Unfortunately it 
wasn't mythical enough.....
Nobody has come up with Poseidon, apart from you...GOOD one!!
Martin Streng came up with Zeus' Revenge (a bit fierce, perhaps; 
Zeus' Delight...??)
As regards Norse mythology, related to the Sea, The Vikings believed 
that the Earth was totally surrounded by the Sea, at the bottom of 
which lay the Sea-God "Midgard" a huge, coiled snake, biting its own 
tail. The Vikings - like the Greek, would you believe it, had this 
mistaken fancy that the Earth was round (!); the Greeks imagined the world 
surrounded by a river called Oceanus.
Waves, storms at sea - according to the Vikings - were caused by the 
Midgard snake writhing from his own self-inflicted pain of biting his 
tail ...
So how about "Midgards Relief"...?   or such like.... ??
Oh, Mary... don't get me going on...!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:22:10 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: travel cheap 2  - Chartres 97 perhaps???
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:46:18 +0000
Message-ID: <199612060120.BAA22959@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Precedence: bulk

This is is Elisabeth; I saw this rather curious posting on our list 
from "Beermug" ((???!!!). I quote it almost verbatim, because it may 
be relevant to the people who are still trying to save up for coming 
to Chartres (THE Cathedral to Stained Glass!)  in France next Easter with me
 and my UK crowd..
In total, we now have 25 people. Those of you who have already BOUGHT 
your tickets - stand by - as I will e-mail you individually with 
further details in the next day or so.(And simultaneously putting you 
in touch with one-another).
We in the UK are "clubbing together" and would like to offer you 
hospitality with us in our homes during your stay in UK., rather than for you to 
stay in hotels or Bed & Breakfast places (which costs money). That, 
by the way, also means, that you most certainly will not go 
hungry in UK..!!
 So far, there are 5 of you who have registered interest. Please let me know 
if you are coming on your OWN or WITH a partner...

Other cheap flights from USA to Europe/UK  by Delta Airways 
("Starvers' Deal"), Lee Boe might by now have further info about 
(Lee: DO you??)

I am well aware of that there are still a number of you who are 
furiously trying to save up, really WANT to come, and so on. My 
private e-mail "bag"  has got many such messages. So if we have 
removed the cost of hotels/ bed&breakfast costs in UK from your 
costs, food  to keep your  "uummphh" up, maybe you are ONE step closer 
to making it...?? Let me know.

The deal - in a nutshell is:
Find a "dirt-cheap" return-flight to London, I will pick you up from 
the Airport. You will need about US Dollars 260 in total for journey 
& hotel & breakfast to/from Chartres. We depart UK on 2nd April, we 
spend 3 nights in Chartres and on 5th April we arrive back in UK 
During our our 3 days in Chartres a dinner with wine would cost us 
each between 7-10 US Dollars/day. Spending money then according to your 
means and priorities....Once back in UK, you will be returned to "my 
tender mercy"...
If you have any specific particular questions, do let me know.
We would LOVE to see you and have you here....
Here goes quotation:
From:          beermug@snowcrest.net (Paul Deutsch)
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       travel cheap
Date:          Thu, 5 Dec 1996 09:00:26 -0800 (PST)
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

Hey John,
Remember me telling you about that gal that traveled to Europe so 
inexpensively?  She's still doing her seminars and now she has a web page, 
check out

http://www.netexcel.com/sea-air/

end of quote.
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:22:45 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 01:46:18 +0000
Message-ID: <199612060120.BAA22955@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Precedence: bulk

Elaine wrote:
I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
Thanks >>

The Answer: NO, sorry. And it get more akward the further into the 
middle of the panel that the piece is located. To make a proper and 
NEAT job of it, your real only solution is to de-solder your joints 
back to the offending piece, remove each piece of glass in turn and 
clean them thoroughly (if you have already cemented. Also to clean out 
the lead came thouroughly). If the piece in question is so offensive, 
that you can't leave it where it is, then you have a long and arduous 
task ahead. I have often seen people bending open the lead came, to 
try and "fish" out a piece this way. Almost without exception, this 
ends up making a total mess of the lead and very often results in 
cracking other surrounding pieces of glass (which then also have to 
be replaced...).
Sorry if this sounds negative (and JUST  H O W  much would I not 
myself dream of an easier solution...). There is a Moral:  get your 
colours right before you start soldering....

However.... if - by any chance - your panel is all copper-foiled (as 
opposed to lead), then Mike Savad's advice (as usual) is a very sound 
one.
Elisabeth 'n Toby


----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Thu Dec  5 17:23:49 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review a book?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 1996 23:49:54 +0000
Message-ID: <199612052324.XAA29366@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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>Dover Publications just sent us a book to review ... "Wild Animals Stained
Glass
>Pattern Book," 60 patterns ranging from antelopes to toucans.  Anyone
interested
>in reviewing it in exchange for the book itself?  And fame, of course,
since the
>review would appear in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass, the Guild's
>newsletter, then be enshrined for all time on the Guild's web site.
>
>If you're interested, tell us why you should be the lucky one. <g>  The
decision
>will be made Friday and we'll Priority Mail the book, hoping for your comments
>by next week.  Just a paragraph or two: Are the designs useful, would you use
>them, etc.
>
Hi Albert,
Fame at LAST...??
Designing a considerable amount of stained glass wild-life myself, I 
would be very interested. And why not a little "international" 
flavour to the proceedings.... Just in time to show my students (60 
of them in total this term- a lot of them "advanced") and see what they have
 to say about it too.  ...Just in time before we break up for 
Christmas.    ???
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 04:25:18 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 07:22:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.22213.0>
References: <<961205103712.25200cbf@xavier.xu.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
> because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
> Thanks
> Elaine


The only thing I have to add to this, is a tip when the solder just 
won't separate from the two pieces of foil.  I was told to use a piece 
of aluminum to squeeze in between the piece you are want to remove, and 
the surrounding piece, as you are heating up the solder.  With the 
aluminum in between, the two pieces cannot fuse back together when the 
solder cools.  Then you have a better chance of getting more of the 
solder off.

Replacing pieces in either copper foil, or lead is difficult, but not 
impossible, as some of us are able to make a living doing repair work.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:20:15 1996
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X-Path: mail.smu.edu!gshultz
From: gshultz@mail.smu.edu (Gary Shultz)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 08:18:54 -0600
Message-ID: <v01530500aecddaed84d3@[129.119.37.12]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
>>
>> I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
>> because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
>> Thanks
>> Elaine
>

The only thing I can add to what has already been said is that Radio Shack
makes a rubber bulb for removing solder that you might find handy.
Essentially, you heat the solder, and use the bulb to suck the solder away.
Occasionally, the opening into the bulb will get stopped up and you will
find a small nail very handy in clearing the opening.

It can be a bit slow at times, but overall it works well. This, combined
with scoring and breaking the glass, makes removal fairly simple and fast.

Best of luck,
=Gary


      ~(~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)~
    ~~~) Gary Shultz - SMU News and Information (~~~
  ~~~~~( Tele. 214-768-7665   Fax: 214-768-7663 )~~~~~
~~~~~~~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~~


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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:29:20 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:26:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.42644.0>
References: <<199612060120.BAA22952@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Mike said:
> 
> hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
> i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
> tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
> called it what they were.
> 
> OK, so nice and simple: "Midgards Lamp"  (Meaning: Lamp of the Middle
> Earth - i.e. the Sea)
> ..We're all trying... we'll get there in the end...
> Elisabeth


i thnk we're headed in the right direction, but i think everyone's goind
to ask what Midgards is, and then i'll have to define it for them. but
i'll keep it in mind...

---Mike Savad



-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:32:26 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:29:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.42947.0>
References: <<199612060120.BAA22966@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Mary wrote:
> 
> <<Anybody suggest Poseidon?
> 
> Where's Elisabeth with her pantheon of Swedish or other Norsk gods? How
> about something celtic?
> 
> Wish I could see this lamp, however my service lacks graphics....
> sigh.>>
> 
> Hi Mary,
> Don't worry; Elisabeth did put in her 2 cents worth. Unfortunately it
> wasn't mythical enough.....
> Nobody has come up with Poseidon, apart from you...GOOD one!!
> Martin Streng came up with Zeus' Revenge (a bit fierce, perhaps;
> Zeus' Delight...??)
> As regards Norse mythology, related to the Sea, The Vikings believed
> that the Earth was totally surrounded by the Sea, at the bottom of
> which lay the Sea-God "Midgard" a huge, coiled snake, biting its own
> tail. The Vikings - like the Greek, would you believe it, had this
> mistaken fancy that the Earth was round (!); the Greeks imagined the world
> surrounded by a river called Oceanus.
> Waves, storms at sea - according to the Vikings - were caused by the
> Midgard snake writhing from his own self-inflicted pain of biting his
> tail ...
> So how about "Midgards Relief"...?   or such like.... ??
> Oh, Mary... don't get me going on...!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


hmm maybe  The Lamp of Oceanus ...just don't know....

---Mike Savad


-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:34:12 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Solder wick?
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:38:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.13856.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone tryed solder wick for repairs?
-- 
****************
April 
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:48:52 1996
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:48:41 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.144841.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 07:59 PM 12/5/96 +0000, you wrote:
>You wrote:
>> as for lead i really don't know.
>
>i've used this technique for replacing pieces out of a lead panel:
>
>cut the crown off the backside of the panel around the piece in question.  
>crack and break out the piece. use a dremel tool to get out all the old putty  
>if it's hard. if it's not hard, then you don't have to remove the putty. cut  
>the new piece so it will fit in the hole. you then cut the crown off a new  
>piece of lead and solder the ends in place. try to leave a little bit of the  
>heart of the lead so that it will fit down the crack between the old putty  
>and new piece of glass. if necessary, reputty around that piece.
>
>it won't be as strong in that place, but it can be almost undetectable.
>
>---
>Charles Spitzer



We've used the above for real busy panels and it works well.  Another method
to consider for panels with larger pieces, ie, 4 to 6 sq inches:

First, place the panel on a piece of plywood larger than the panel.  If the
frame is zinc (or copper, brass etc), remove it on two opposite sides.  If
the frame is lead, cut it at a solder joint using lead knippers, then begin
cutting at solder junctions from each side to the piece you want to replace.
Flip the panel over to the opposite side, CAUTION HERE:  place a piece of
plywood over the panel, sandwiching the panel, then squeeze the sandwich and
flip it over.  Now, cut through the same solder junctions that you cut on
the opposite side and pull the panel apart.  Pull out the unwanted piece,
use it for a template to make the new piece, and push the panel back
together.  Solder at the solder joints that you had previously cut, flip the
panel to the opposite side (using the plywood sandwich) and solder the cut
joints.  Then, reputty and there should not be any detectable evidence that
you had the panel apart.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:55:06 1996
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From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:53:58 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.145358.0>
References: <<1996Dec6.22213.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Fri, 6 Dec 1996, Joyce Moran wrote:

> Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> > 
> > I made a glass panel and now I would like to change one small piece
> > because the color is wrong...is there an "easy" way of doing this?
> > Thanks
> > Elaine
> 
> 
> The only thing I have to add to this, is a tip when the solder just 
> won't separate from the two pieces of foil.  I was told to use a piece 
> of aluminum to squeeze in between the piece you are want to remove, and 
> the surrounding piece, as you are heating up the solder.  With the 
> aluminum in between, the two pieces cannot fuse back together when the 
> solder cools.  Then you have a better chance of getting more of the 
> solder off.

I have found that the PTFE tape that plumbers wrap around pipe threads
does a good job. As long as most of the solder has been removed and
you have managed to find a hole to push it through. Pulling the tape
behind the soldering iron as you melt the solder stops it from
re-joining.

> 
> Replacing pieces in either copper foil, or lead is difficult, but not 
> impossible, as some of us are able to make a living doing repair work.

For lead work, as long as the piece to be replaced is approximately 
square or at least not too complicated in shape the following seems to
work, at least with 3mm glass and standard came of 3/16" or 1/4".

    Remove the old piece by scoring and breaking
    Remove the cames from around it
    Make new piece allowing slightly more play than you usually
       would, perhaps 1/16" for 1/4" came, lightly bevel the edge
       of the glass to stop it biting into the lead while 
       assembling.
    Cut new came about 1/16" too short and open it up slightly
    You should now be able to jiggle the glass and cames into place
       and hold in place with sticky tape.(this also helps to hold
       the glass so that the gap at the edge is equal on all sides. 
    Cut small "T" pieces from the same came to fill the gaps caused
       by the came being cut short.
    Solder as normal.

Note that if there are anything more than the gentlest curves in the
lead the above does not work.

One other sugestion is that it is often possible to find a line
through the lead where a job can be seperated into two pieces
and exposing the broken part for replacement. 

Mike Simpson.
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 06:57:06 1996
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Solder wick?
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 14:56:53 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.145653.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 05:38 PM 12/6/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Has anyone tryed solder wick for repairs?
>-- 
>****************
>April 

I use solder wick all the time.  It's a braided copper wire and works very
well as long as you saturate it with flux and push it into the solder using
a hot iron.  It works well to remove globs of solder, but will not pull out
solder that is deep within the joints.  
Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 07:56:53 1996
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Solder wick?
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 10:57:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.55759.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

A friend of mine cuts narrow strips of aluminum soda cans and wedges them 
between joints that she wants to separate while the lead is hot. The lead 
does not stict too well to the aluminum and keeps the solder from oozing 
back in the joint while she moves to a new place. Doesn't replace solder 
wich but works after the wich has done its job.

Linda

----------
From: 	Mike  Peck[SMTP:summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: 	Friday, December 06, 1996 9:56 AM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	Re: Solder wick?

At 05:38 PM 12/6/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Has anyone tryed solder wick for repairs?
>--
>****************
>April

I use solder wick all the time.  It's a braided copper wire and works very
well as long as you saturate it with flux and push it into the solder using
a hot iron.  It works well to remove globs of solder, but will not pull out
solder that is deep within the joints.
Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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M[SE[ISPT+: 9$&DN!:!M0]]Q/KYU8FHU047_.7M2RF5+,%,L]VL_,8\RDUPS
M-C0'&D4U!D$%0#!0-3HS.#J034,`,N@O-B]#,2LS`#,`0B N>0A@'L U$CH*
MA3Y(WR]!`'!2P!O1'-!Y"8 LV7\H\ (0!< L80MP$:!.!CZS-8 PICXJ5ZU3
M9D$34.,#$3!,22!U$;!4ZP= /R61(.$DT > (X!:4'0G/QYQ'X AX$'@5,$%
MH'!P_RTC%A >A"WS*J!4H J%)6/?+T$5H"B1+T%2PG,@H APOR'R+\ M01] 
M&P`*0'@>@_YP6H M@&%!(#$EQ">56H"_*($*A1X@(U$C$ -@;EQ#_RW5)686
M$"J"1\$P$!T3)Y3_0B MHP,0`R D@F)0)8$(8/YT"H4GE2"#(R$-L"&P86/]
M*1IS7$$*A3I#.J(*A4K YSMB!@`[Q"!'/$(P3#7IWD8%L3M 9Q %`VD"(!OP
M_Q& &1 'D$(@"U BX%J1`,"O`Q$A<$LP/#,M%A!Q"E#_$\!(+T70(9$;426U
M,L 3P']"('8S<A]'[PJR!Q 1<&EY*J)A=G*1`: B82"A:$$"0' Z+R]W>L N
M_4@W+SPS,$Q.CT^?-14*A045,0" $ ````,`$! ``````P`1$ ````! ``<P
J8$2NW8WCNP% ``@P8$2NW8WCNP$>`#T``0````4```!213H@`````+2>
`
end

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 10:09:24 1996
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X-Path: westbyserver.westby.mwt.net!alcamoz
From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:08:38 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612061808.MAA28175@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 11:30 AM 12/1/96 -0500, M. Savad wrote:
>For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
>the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
>anyway).

Hi Mike,

What a guy! All along downplaying the artsy stuff chatter meanwhile the
wheels are always turning and your creating these great pieces. I love the
hand wrought look and an almost folksie charm as applied to the 3
demensional pieces obviously so carefully thought out in all aspects, a very
refreshing look. I believe you have all the tools to have a great future as
a glass artist and I look forward to seeing your new creations.

Your right Tiffany just named the lamps what they were. My mother worked for
many years for an art importer in New York and one of her jobs was to give
the prints and paintings names for inventory purposes and she always did the
same thing red flowers in yellow vase that kind of thing, my point is I
don't think your a pretentious guy and I don't think fish lamp needs a
pretentious name its a great piece and it speaks for it self.

Len  

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 10:09:59 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 12:08:40 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612061808.MAA28177@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 11:30 AM 12/1/96 -0500, M. Savad wrote:
>For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
>the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
>anyway).

Hi Mike,

What a guy! All along downplaying the artsy stuff chatter meanwhile the
wheels are always turning and your creating these great pieces. I love the
hand wrought look and an almost folksie charm as applied to the 3
demensional pieces obviously so carefully thought out in all aspects, a very
refreshing look. I believe you have all the tools to have a great future as
a glass artist and I look forward to seeing your new creations.

Your right Tiffany just named the lamps what they were. My mother worked for
many years for an art importer in New York and one of her jobs was to give
the prints and paintings names for inventory purposes and she always did the
same thing red flowers in yellow vase that kind of thing, my point is I
don't think your a pretentious guy and I don't think fish lamp needs a
pretentious name its a great piece and it speaks for it self.

Len  

----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 10:53:34 1996
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X-Path: xavier.xu.edu!CRABLE
From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: Replacing glass
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:50:48 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961206135049.2520a31a@xavier.xu.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I really thank you all for your suggestions on replacing the glass 
piece..it is a foiled piece and I am going to try and replace it this
weekend.

Thanks agian
Elaine
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 12:48:16 1996
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From: jroey@juno.com (Jerri M Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Name the Lamp Contest
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 14:42:17 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.194217.0>
References: <<1996Dec4.5179.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mike (and everyone),

	I'm getting really frustrated trying to look at your page.  I
can't get past the first page with the lamp.  Geocities must be swamped
or something.  I'll keep trying.  The lamp looks wonderful.  wish I could
see the real thing.  I've enjoyed reading all the suggestions for names. 
Do we get to vote?  Does the winner get a prize?  Kidding, of course. 
Being a land lubber, I don't have much to contribute as far as
suggestions.  Well, if anyone else had troulbe getting your page, please
let me know if I could be doing something wrong.

Jerri
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 13:55:17 1996
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X-Path: fsg.prusec.com!CAVA
From: Lucille Cava - 778-1932 <CAVA@fsg.prusec.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My page - New Stuff
Date: Fri Dec  6 13:54:51 1996
Message-ID: <96Dec6.150741est.40367-1@prufire1.prusec.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



   


From:	SMTP%"glass@bungi.com"  6-DEC-1996 13:39:05.63
To:	CAVA
CC:	
Subj:	Re: My Page - New Stuff

X-Path: westbyserver.westby.mwt.net!alcamoz
From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 13:08:38 -0500
Message-Id: <199612061808.MAA28175@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 11:30 AM 12/1/96 -0500, M. Savad wrote:
>For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
>the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
>anyway).

>Hi Mike,

>What a guy! All along downplaying the artsy stuff chatter meanwhile the
>wheels are always turning and your creating these great pieces. I love the
>hand wrought look and an almost folksie charm as applied to the 3
>demensional pieces obviously so carefully thought out in all aspects, a very
>refreshing look. I believe you have all the tools to have a great future as
>a glass artist and I look forward to seeing your new creations.

>Your right Tiffany just named the lamps what they were. My mother worked for
>many years for an art importer in New York and one of her jobs was to give
>the prints and paintings names for inventory purposes and she always did the
>same thing red flowers in yellow vase that kind of thing, my point is I
>don't think your a pretentious guy and I don't think fish lamp needs a
>pretentious name its a great piece and it speaks for it self.

>Len  
   

   I must agree.  You have done some beautiful and 
  impressive pieces.  Viewing them gave reminded me
  why I like working with glass. Tks.

   Lucille
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----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 14:42:44 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:39:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.123958.0>
References: <<199612061808.MAA28175@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
> At 11:30 AM 12/1/96 -0500, M. Savad wrote:
> >For anyone intrested i finally got around to updating my page, it has
> >the most current photo's of my work (within the last 2 or so years
> >anyway).
> 
> Hi Mike,
> 
> What a guy! All along downplaying the artsy stuff chatter meanwhile the
> wheels are always turning and your creating these great pieces. I love the
> hand wrought look and an almost folksie charm as applied to the 3
> demensional pieces obviously so carefully thought out in all aspects, a very
> refreshing look. I believe you have all the tools to have a great future as
> a glass artist and I look forward to seeing your new creations.
> 
> Your right Tiffany just named the lamps what they were. My mother worked for
> many years for an art importer in New York and one of her jobs was to give
> the prints and paintings names for inventory purposes and she always did the
> same thing red flowers in yellow vase that kind of thing, my point is I
> don't think your a pretentious guy and I don't think fish lamp needs a
> pretentious name its a great piece and it speaks for it self.
> 
> Len
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


thanks... though with tiffany's pieces, alot of them being flowers, the
flowers themselves gave them a glitsy name. i may keep the name fish
lamp, but i just feel it does'nt have that right ring to it.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 14:49:15 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Name the Lamp Contest
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 17:46:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.124638.0>
References: <<1996Dec6.194217.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerri M Roey wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike (and everyone),
> 
>         I'm getting really frustrated trying to look at your page.  I
> can't get past the first page with the lamp.  Geocities must be swamped
> or something.  I'll keep trying.  The lamp looks wonderful.  wish I could
> see the real thing.  I've enjoyed reading all the suggestions for names.
> Do we get to vote?  Does the winner get a prize?  Kidding, of course.
> Being a land lubber, I don't have much to contribute as far as
> suggestions.  Well, if anyone else had troulbe getting your page, please
> let me know if I could be doing something wrong.
> 
> Jerri
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i'm curious, where did it get stuck on? geocities does have it's slow
downs. i just tried it out, it loaded. on the home page i have an
invisible counter, that could be the problem, but if the lamp loaded
that shoud'nt have been the problem.  try at different times, it should
load eventually, they've also been upgrading so that could be a cause. 
as for prizes there is any except maybe seeing the name up there. soon
i'll have the other side up.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 15:39:49 1996
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X-Path: montana.com!chip3
From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: New Innovations
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 16:07:41 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.9741.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

Hi Glass People, I am relatively new to stained glass (2yrs) and for 
awhile I was facinated by some of the  things I learned from this list 
server site.  But now it seems there is more discussion about other 
things and I am really anxious to learn more (the secrets) about stained 
glass work.  So I propose to all of you that each of us try to describe 
a technique or submit a special project and how we developed and 
completed it, once a month.  That should not be too difficult for the 
first few months and then we'll see what happens after that.  This way 
we can all learn from the trials and shortcuts of others.  Anyone in 
favor?  Lets hear from you.  Thanks "T" in Montana
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 15:45:47 1996
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:45:21 -0800
Message-ID: <199612062345.PAA00139@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>

>
>
>Hi John,
>
>We are going to use this method of patina for lead came but they 
didn't 
>seem to know exactly how to handle it safely till Charles posted.


I have never had any luck applying patina to lead. The only sucess I 
ever had was if it were tined first. You can get a much darker finish 
on lead by vigerous buushing with a soft scrub brush after cementing.

It's >coppper sulfate (acid) we wanted to sure he is correct acid into 
the 
>water? It's not not that dangerous is it? 
>
I think the danger is limited though it is advisable to take all 
precations when working with chemicals. Muriatic acid is a 15% or less 
solution of hydrochloric acid. It is the same chemical used in swimming 
pools. In pools I believe you add the acid to the water. (heh heh)

ms

>
>April
>vgplugs@primeline.com
>In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 15:50:31 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over Patina
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 15:50:11 -0800
Message-ID: <199612062350.PAA10361@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Hi, 
>
>We need to match the solder joints to brass came. Would like to use 
own 
>solution less$$ but not chemically knowledgeable. Have been trying 
>to follow discussion but I must be missing some posts. Does the 
>muriatic acid work? April  
>-- 

For a more coppery look use no muriatic, use only copper sulfate and 
warm water. The other way is to use a brass paint most closely matched 
to the brass came being used. It is more time consuming but with care 
you can get an acceptable finish.

ms

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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 16:09:56 1996
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:09:32 -0800
Message-ID: <199612070009.QAA12209@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>You wrote:
>> as for lead i really don't know.
>
>i've used this technique for replacing pieces out of a lead panel:
>
>cut the crown off the backside of the panel around the piece in 
question.  
>crack and break out the piece. use a dremel tool to get out all the 
old putty  
>if it's hard. if it's not hard, then you don't have to remove the 
putty. cut  
>the new piece so it will fit in the hole. you then cut the crown off a 
new  
>piece of lead and solder the ends in place. try to leave a little bit 
of the  
>heart of the lead so that it will fit down the crack between the old 
putty  
>and new piece of glass. if necessary, reputty around that piece.
>
>it won't be as strong in that place, but it can be almost 
undetectable.
>
>---
>

Very very bad advice. sorry but this is certainly not the way to do a 
leaded repair. The beauty of lead is that it is maleable, therefore it 
has quite a lot of give. Even on a small came you can tap and ease open 
the came to allow for passage of the new piece of glass. On a large 
came (say 1/4 or larger) it is even easier, and you can do a repair to 
almost full size. Any repairs usually call for even more skill than a 
comperable new piece. you usually need to cut your piece to very 
exacting standards to avoid it looking bad. Even worse then lead or 
foil is zinc for repairing. This takes very high skill levels usually 
requiring cut acuracy to the 64TH of an inch. All of these repairs can 
be done however as "drop ins" just take your time and be gentle.
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 16:12:52 1996
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Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
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X-Path: xavier.xu.edu!CRABLE
From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: grinders
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 19:10:26 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961206191026.2520a66b@xavier.xu.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have one more question on tools..you have been so kind on suggestions.
Which glass grinder do you all suggest for someone?  I have used the 
Wizard and the Wizling...should I stick with one of these or choose
something else?

Thanks again for you patience with this novice...
Bye
Elaine
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 16:18:47 1996
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Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:18:21 -0800
Message-ID: <199612070018.QAA29879@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Elaine wrote:

>
>The Answer: NO, sorry. And it get more akward the further into the 
>middle of the panel that the piece is located.

this is true to a point, it is not an easy job by any means.

To make a proper and NEAT job of it, your real only solution is to 
de-solder your joints back to the offending piece, remove each piece of 
glass in turn and clean them thoroughly (if you have already cemented. 
Also to clean out 
>the lead came thouroughly).

With lead you can do a proper repair ( one that all but the most astute 
would not notice) though not without some skill. We do subtle and clean 
"drop in" repairs all the time. ( If not for drop ins many clients 
could not afford the cost of repairs or restorations.) The key to all 
of these types of undertaking is not to rush it. when opening the leads 
dont expect to "bend " it back nor fold it down all in one operation. 
do it slowly so as not to fatigue the metal. use picks to "fish" out 
the shards, and again, take your time.
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 16:30:36 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 19:28:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.14281.0>
References: <<1996Dec6.9741.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Phil Taylor wrote:
> 
> Hi Glass People, I am relatively new to stained glass (2yrs) and for
> awhile I was facinated by some of the  things I learned from this list
> server site.  But now it seems there is more discussion about other
> things and I am really anxious to learn more (the secrets) about stained
> glass work.  So I propose to all of you that each of us try to describe
> a technique or submit a special project and how we developed and
> completed it, once a month.  That should not be too difficult for the
> first few months and then we'll see what happens after that.  This way
> we can all learn from the trials and shortcuts of others.  Anyone in
> favor?  Lets hear from you.  Thanks "T" in Montana
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp, i work best with a particular subject, i know a bunch of things,
but still need questions. later on my page i'll be putting up some of
things your asking. tips, my mold making adventures, and on certain
projects what i messed up on. i also may be putting in the creative
process, from doodle to finished product.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 16:35:30 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: grinders
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 19:32:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.143258.0>
References: <<961206191026.2520a66b@xavier.xu.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I have one more question on tools..you have been so kind on suggestions.
> Which glass grinder do you all suggest for someone?  I have used the
> Wizard and the Wizling...should I stick with one of these or choose
> something else?
> 
> Thanks again for you patience with this novice...
> Bye
> Elaine
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

we've tossed this question a few times around here. i personally go for
the inland series, the bigger the better. i have the wiz, the wizard,
and the twin spin. other's like the glastar. it seems no one cares much
for gemstone, max, or the others.  i say if you already used an inland
stick with that, unless of course your supplier does'nt carry it. the
two things i do like about glastar is the little drawer, and the wide,
flexible, splash gaurd. but on the inland, the pop top series is great,
makes it real easy to clean. however don't by the touch top, it seems
the switch breaks to quickly on these.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 18:59:45 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 03:25:09 +0000
Message-ID: <199612070259.CAA08513@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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From:          "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Mike's Lamp
Date:          Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:26:44 -0500
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

Toby wrote:
> 
> Mike said:
> 
> hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
> i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
> tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
> called it what they were.
> 
> OK, so nice and simple: "Midgards Lamp"  (Meaning: Lamp of the Middle
> Earth - i.e. the Sea)
> ..We're all trying... we'll get there in the end...
> Elisabeth


i thnk we're headed in the right direction, but i think everyone's goind
to ask what Midgards is, and then i'll have to define it for them. but
i'll keep it in mind...

---Mike Savad

But OF COURSE Mike, people will ask you! That's the whole POINT! It's 
a conversation point, intriguing and certainly something people will 
remember!! It's not convoluted, but just a little bit out of the 
ordinary. - just like your lamp.
Let me tell you a little story to illustrate my point.My life-long 
best "mate", whom I have known since I was 15 years old (he's an 
Englishman, and somewhere along the years, we also got married... but 
that's another story), has worked all his life for the BBC 
Television. 30 years ago, a Middle East country requested  the BBC to  
help find a good man  create, build, set up and get off the ground 
a national brand new television and radio broadcasting service in 
their country from scratch. Brian applied for the post  to be the 
SECOND in charge (i.e. not top boss). He submitted his CV and and 
made a particular point of stressing about the 10 months he had spent at 
a hotel in Sweden with a peculiar and unpronouncible name, washing 
dishes .
"You can't put THAT down" said  I.
"Why not", said he.
"It's totally irrelevant to the job! , said I, "and nobody  would 
ever wish to know the name of some remote Swedish hotel in Stockholm, 
with a name that nobody can pronounce". Never mind  about you washing dishes 
there..."
"Well," said he, "I've done it and at least they might just remember 
me".
It turned out, he was absolutely RIGHT. They did remember him, they 
did remember his dish-washing career and they DID remember the name 
of the hotel (even though they pronounced it appallingly). He was 
appointed to the TOP job and spent 7 years in North & South Yemen 
creating a television and radio service out of nothing.   I know, 
because 5 of those years I was there with him.
He had used the psychological tool of standing out from the crowd, 
added a complication that intrigued so much, that the decision 
makers' curiosity was teased. So THEY felt compelled to do their own 
research. He stuck in their memory. He certainly turned out to be a 
conversation topic. He retired from the BBC a few years ago. You 
should have seen the party they threw for him!! Even today, he still 
walks in and out of the highest security areas in BBC with the 
amazing ease and recognition from the new generation of youngsters 
coming up within BBC....
Don't sell yourself short! Don't be afraid to be a "conversation 
topic". After all, don't we ALL    W A N T    people to ask more 
questions about our work. The more they ask, the more we can talk to 
them and get them interested in what we are doing. And Remember us. 
 (.... and as a tiny, totally  unimportant bi-product... - the more we can sell....)
:-)
Go For IT!! Have a bit of Daring!
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 18:59:46 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: grinders
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 03:25:09 +0000
Message-ID: <199612070259.CAA08507@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Elaine Wrote:

I have one more question on tools..you have been so kind on suggestions.
Which glass grinder do you all suggest for someone?  I have used the 
Wizard and the Wizling...should I stick with one of these or choose
something else?

Dear Elaine,
Stick with Wizard - you have already got it; it's a good all-round 
grinder. I have had one for almost 20 years...
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 18:59:46 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 03:25:09 +0000
Message-ID: <199612070259.CAA08504@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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To: Newbie " T in Montana":

It was very innteresting to hear from you "newbie" of 2 years. I 
don't know how long you have been "lurking", but we have often had  
-over the months -  a deluge of "favourite stained glass tool", 
favourite stained glass method method,  favourite "new" stained glass 
idea; favourite conference/display/exhibition and even favourite 
stained glass home page. We have even exchanged "favourite music to work 
by".
Lately we have seen a tremendous flow about the latest stained glass 
"baby" - the stained glass band saw, recipes for copper sulphate and 
many other topics.
At one time, we even had a "secret bunker" where some of us would 
hide away with Albert for a secret smoke of nicotine.... We have had 
very thought-provoking questions about stained glass manufacturing 
from Poland .
In amongst all of that, there has to be a little light relief, a 
laugh and a smile and a bit of human and personal conatct. All of us 
work in isolation - to quite a considerable extent. So when a 
"newbie" dip into us, you might initially get right into the middle 
of a frivolous exchange or into a heated debate about some rather 
narrow aspect of a method or a tool, where a lot of emotional content 
fly around. Once or twice there is a "language problem".
The resolution of many of these things come from us having given each 
other a little insight in how we function as human beings and as 
stained glass artists.
Please don't be put off, because we always enjoy new ideas, new 
input. New questions, new experiences. Whowever you are out there 
"newbie", just get the bit between your teet, pluck up courage & say 
your piece.
MY favourite tool of the month; my lead snipper. I am watching it 
die... It's getting dull and old. We can't get them here i n the UK. 
In the stained glass business in the UK, it's regarded as "unpopular" 
and has therefore been discontinued. Mary, Kathe, Peggy; when you 
come over, THAT will be  item No. 1 on "Elisabeth's Wish List" Nice, 
sharp, keen, good quality lead snipper. To trim & mitre with razor 
edge accuracy.... (sigh!)
NEW innovation: "dunno";  I am watching the band-saw discussion with 
great interest..... holding my fire. Otherwise stained glass computer 
soft-ware. Dragonfly "Glasseye" has now added their scanning/import 
facility . I am having difficulties with it and would like to hear 
comments from you all.... But then I do confess to being a total 
computer nerd....
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 19:01:13 1996
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From: Steve Schaefer <staingls@dwave.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 1996 21:00:44 -0600
Message-ID: <199612070300.VAA06639@home.dwave.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Amen to that!

Steve
At 04:07 PM 12/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Glass People, I am relatively new to stained glass (2yrs) and for 
>awhile I was facinated by some of the  things I learned from this list 
>server site.  But now it seems there is more discussion about other 
>things and I am really anxious to learn more (the secrets) about stained 
>glass work.  So I propose to all of you that each of us try to describe 
>a technique or submit a special project and how we developed and 
>completed it, once a month.  That should not be too difficult for the 
>first few months and then we'll see what happens after that.  This way 
>we can all learn from the trials and shortcuts of others.  Anyone in 
>favor?  Lets hear from you.  Thanks "T" in Montana
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 19:25:33 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 22:22:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.172255.0>
References: <<199612070259.CAA08513@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> From:          "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
> To:            glass@bungi.com
> Subject:       Re: Mike's Lamp
> Date:          Fri, 06 Dec 1996 09:26:44 -0500
> Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com
> 
> Toby wrote:
> >
> > Mike said:
> >
> > hmmm...maybe... but i think the names are getting a little complicated,
> > i wanna see if i can somehow get lamp into the name, without it looking
> > tacky. however when tiffany made his lamps, i noticed that he simply
> > called it what they were.
> >
> > OK, so nice and simple: "Midgards Lamp"  (Meaning: Lamp of the Middle
> > Earth - i.e. the Sea)
> > ..We're all trying... we'll get there in the end...
> > Elisabeth
> 
> i thnk we're headed in the right direction, but i think everyone's goind
> to ask what Midgards is, and then i'll have to define it for them. but
> i'll keep it in mind...
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> But OF COURSE Mike, people will ask you! That's the whole POINT! It's
> a conversation point, intriguing and certainly something people will
> remember!! It's not convoluted, but just a little bit out of the
> ordinary. - just like your lamp.
> Let me tell you a little story to illustrate my point.My life-long
> best "mate", whom I have known since I was 15 years old (he's an
> Englishman, and somewhere along the years, we also got married... but
> that's another story), has worked all his life for the BBC
> Television. 30 years ago, a Middle East country requested  the BBC to
> help find a good man  create, build, set up and get off the ground
> a national brand new television and radio broadcasting service in
> their country from scratch. Brian applied for the post  to be the
> SECOND in charge (i.e. not top boss). He submitted his CV and and
> made a particular point of stressing about the 10 months he had spent at
> a hotel in Sweden with a peculiar and unpronouncible name, washing
> dishes .
> "You can't put THAT down" said  I.
> "Why not", said he.
> "It's totally irrelevant to the job! , said I, "and nobody  would
> ever wish to know the name of some remote Swedish hotel in Stockholm,
> with a name that nobody can pronounce". Never mind  about you washing dishes
> there..."
> "Well," said he, "I've done it and at least they might just remember
> me".
> It turned out, he was absolutely RIGHT. They did remember him, they
> did remember his dish-washing career and they DID remember the name
> of the hotel (even though they pronounced it appallingly). He was
> appointed to the TOP job and spent 7 years in North & South Yemen
> creating a television and radio service out of nothing.   I know,
> because 5 of those years I was there with him.
> He had used the psychological tool of standing out from the crowd,
> added a complication that intrigued so much, that the decision
> makers' curiosity was teased. So THEY felt compelled to do their own
> research. He stuck in their memory. He certainly turned out to be a
> conversation topic. He retired from the BBC a few years ago. You
> should have seen the party they threw for him!! Even today, he still
> walks in and out of the highest security areas in BBC with the
> amazing ease and recognition from the new generation of youngsters
> coming up within BBC....
> Don't sell yourself short! Don't be afraid to be a "conversation
> topic". After all, don't we ALL    W A N T    people to ask more
> questions about our work. The more they ask, the more we can talk to
> them and get them interested in what we are doing. And Remember us.
>  (.... and as a tiny, totally  unimportant bi-product... - the more we can sell....)
> :-)
> Go For IT!! Have a bit of Daring!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> 


well, it's not that i don't want to be the center of attention, which of
course i do as long as it's something good :)  .mainly if i tell them
what it is they may expect me to know the rest of the story. i do like
mythical names, because you can do anything on a project and it could'nt
really be questioned 'cuz it's a myth. if i were in england or the
surrounding area, the name may work, because a few other people may know
already what it means. i like a name that slips off the tongue, yet is
understandable, so when someone here's it they think "hmmm that's a good
name". the most popular name (i think) is atlantis, and also known by
other names apprently, but i used that name already, and i don't like
naming two things with the same name. but sooner or later one should
stick.  BTW i just finished editing the other side and hopefully will be
posting it soon. also i just upgraded the color on the first side, it
gives the right color where there was once mud.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 19:30:00 1996
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X-Path: concentric.net!pmgoff
From: pmgoff <pmgoff@concentric.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Newbies
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 21:29:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.152929.0>
References: <<199612070259.CAA08504@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby,
I agree that you folks have been offering great tips. As another newbie
to stained glass, and as a new lurker for the last two weeks, I've
already picked up many nifty ideas and techniques, which I truly
appreciate.  Thank you for sharing them.  Perhaps in the future I will
have something to contribute also.  (I can imagine what a great tool all
the accumulated tips will be, and I've started saving them for when I'm
in trouble or need advice.)

Right now my local dealer is trying to talk me into buying a ring saw
over the band.  $$$  Hard to decide, but the ring saw is so tempting...

I've also enjoyed viewing all the fantastic stained glass pieces.  What
a wonderful resource you offer, in addition to the inspiration your work
and art gives!!!  

THANK  YOU  ALL,  AND  PLEASE  KEEP  UP  THE  GREAT  CONVERSATION, TOO.
smiles from
--Pam in Texas--
=================

Toby wrote:
> 
> To: Newbie " T in Montana":
> 
> It was very innteresting to hear from you "newbie" of 2 years. I
> don't know how long you have been "lurking", but we have often had
> -over the months -  a deluge of "favourite stained glass tool",
> favourite stained glass method method,  favourite "new" stained glass
> idea; favourite conference/display/exhibition and even favourite
> stained glass home page. We have even exchanged "favourite music to work
> by".
> Lately we have seen a tremendous flow about the latest stained glass
> "baby" - the stained glass band saw, recipes for copper sulphate and
> many other topics.
> At one time, we even had a "secret bunker" where some of us would
> hide away with Albert for a secret smoke of nicotine.... We have had
> very thought-provoking questions about stained glass manufacturing
> from Poland .
> In amongst all of that, there has to be a little light relief, a
> laugh and a smile and a bit of human and personal conatct. All of us
> work in isolation - to quite a considerable extent. So when a
> "newbie" dip into us, you might initially get right into the middle
> of a frivolous exchange or into a heated debate about some rather
> narrow aspect of a method or a tool, where a lot of emotional content
> fly around. Once or twice there is a "language problem".
> The resolution of many of these things come from us having given each
> other a little insight in how we function as human beings and as
> stained glass artists.
> Please don't be put off, because we always enjoy new ideas, new
> input. New questions, new experiences. Whowever you are out there
> "newbie", just get the bit between your teet, pluck up courage & say
> your piece.
> MY favourite tool of the month; my lead snipper. I am watching it
> die... It's getting dull and old. We can't get them here i n the UK.
> In the stained glass business in the UK, it's regarded as "unpopular"
> and has therefore been discontinued. Mary, Kathe, Peggy; when you
> come over, THAT will be  item No. 1 on "Elisabeth's Wish List" Nice,
> sharp, keen, good quality lead snipper. To trim & mitre with razor
> edge accuracy.... (sigh!)
> NEW innovation: "dunno";  I am watching the band-saw discussion with
> great interest..... holding my fire. Otherwise stained glass computer
> soft-ware. Dragonfly "Glasseye" has now added their scanning/import
> facility . I am having difficulties with it and would like to hear
> comments from you all.... But then I do confess to being a total
> computer nerd....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 19:53:47 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Photos Added
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 20:22:13 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.132213.0>
References: <<1996Dec5.52310.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

Guitarshop@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings To All:
> 
>      After viewing the awsome work that Mike Savad had done, I was inspired
> to ad a few new photos to our own web page.  I especially enjoyed the "Fish
> Lamp" and the '57 Chevy (since I own a real '57 Chevy -Red and White 2 Door).
>  I have had aquariums, both salt and fresh water, for about 15 years.  I was
> especially impressed with the realism that Mike achieved.  Well Done!!!
> 
>      If anyone is interested in seeing some of our humble works, the URL is:
> 
>      HTTP://members.gnn.com/Guitarshop
> 
>                         or
> 
>      HTTP://members.aol.com/Guitarshop
> 
>    Please take a minute to give 'em a look,
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Michael & Donna
> Shattered Images Studio
> Houston,TX
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Michael & Donna,
	Your photos are very good and you show enough of your pieces to 
make the stroll through your gallery worthwhile.  One suggestion, I'd 
remove the chair from behind the lamps displayed on the table.  I think 
the chair detracts from the beauty of each lamp.
	I loved the cathedral windows, especially the cockatoo.  The 
angel cathedral is also very well done.  They are so elegant.  You do 
very nice work.  Do you design your own patterns?  Have you used the 
Magic Eye?
	Thanks for your efforts and for sharing your work with us.  T. 
in Montana
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec  6 20:13:27 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:Glasseye by Dragonfly
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 1996 20:41:54 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec6.134154.0>
References: <<199612070259.CAA08504@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
>
> Otherwise stained glass computer
> soft-ware. Dragonfly "Glasseye" has now added their scanning/import
> facility . I am having difficulties with it and would like to hear
> comments from you all.... But then I do confess to being a total
> computer nerd....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby

Hi, Thanks for responding so quickly.  I too have purchased the above 
software, just recently.  In between doing Christmas stained glass 
pieces and cards and shopping and such, I've been trying to learn how to 
use the program.  I didn't realize that they had already incorporated 
the scanning/import ability into the program.  We have a full page 
scanner, yet the only reference I saw in the Glasseye manual was that 
the import file had to be of a certain type, like bmp or something like 
that.  I'm not terribly good at computer stuff either.  I just run the 
bloody thing.  Maybe as I get futher into the program I'll run across 
what you're talking about.  I'll let you know.  Glad to know you're all 
still there and interested, also interesting.  T. in Montana
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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 06:27:19 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Guitarshop Website
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 14:26:52 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec7.142652.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

There was a message a couple of days ago on bungi that "Guitarshop" had
posted a new, or possibly updated their old website and left the address as:

www.members.gnn.com/Guitarshop    or     www.members.aol.com/Guitarshop

I am having trouble accessing.  An error message says "No DNS entry .....
check your URL".

Guitarshop, are you still out there?  Do I have the correct address?


Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 07:04:59 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Newbies
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 10:02:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec7.5221.0>
References: <<1996Dec6.152929.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

pmgoff wrote:
> 
> Toby,
> I agree that you folks have been offering great tips. As another newbie
> to stained glass, and as a new lurker for the last two weeks, I've
> already picked up many nifty ideas and techniques, which I truly
> appreciate.  Thank you for sharing them.  Perhaps in the future I will
> have something to contribute also.  (I can imagine what a great tool all
> the accumulated tips will be, and I've started saving them for when I'm
> in trouble or need advice.)
> 
> Right now my local dealer is trying to talk me into buying a ring saw
> over the band.  $$$  Hard to decide, but the ring saw is so tempting...
> 
> I've also enjoyed viewing all the fantastic stained glass pieces.  What
> a wonderful resource you offer, in addition to the inspiration your work
> and art gives!!!
> 
> THANK  YOU  ALL,  AND  PLEASE  KEEP  UP  THE  GREAT  CONVERSATION, TOO.
> smiles from
> --Pam in Texas--
> =================
> 


buy the ring saw, it's a little more money but definitly worth it,
larger work space, less water piles up on the work, and it's
omnidirectional. however if you hav'nt been doing stained glass that
much i'd probably wait though you you should at least have a grinder.
though if you do decide to get a bandsaw definitly go with a ring saw.
when my new blade dies on my current bandsaw, i'm going to treat my self
with one.

---Mike Savad



-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 12:07:48 1996
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From: llutz <llutz@tpgi.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Guitarshop Website
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 07:04:05 +1100
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.1845.0>
References: <<1996Dec7.142652.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Peck wrote:
> 
> There was a message a couple of days ago on bungi that "Guitarshop" had
> posted a new, or possibly updated their old website and left the address as:
> 
> www.members.gnn.com/Guitarshop    or     www.members.aol.com/Guitarshop
snip-leave out the www- I just got him very quickly at
http://members.gnn.com/guitarshop/index.htm
Larry from Oz

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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 17:16:22 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Solder wick?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 1996 20:06:30 -0600
Message-ID: <199612080215.VAA19850@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello,

I can't help you w/the solder wick, but wanted to respond since I live in
Hendersonville and my parents in Waynesville. Grew up in Waynesville.  Are
you by chance using the Glasseye software?  I am intersted and wanted to
know if anyone local has tried it.  You might check w/Jeff @ the Glass
Giraffe about the solder wick>

Kathy

----------
> From: vgplugs@primeline.com
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Solder wick?
> Date: Friday, December 06, 1996 11:38 AM
> 
> Has anyone tryed solder wick for repairs?
> -- 
> ****************
> April 
> vgplugs@primeline.com
> In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 18:24:46 1996
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From: Roseanne Campbell <knowitall@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 02:20:47 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.22047.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 01:46 AM 12/06/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>Mary wrote:
>
><ad this 
>m
>Elisabeth 'n Toby
>----
>As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
>North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
>http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
>----
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>How about something less exotic as a name for Mike's lamp-maybe "A fish out
of water"?

Also for all of you removing solder, a plastic coated playing card works
great for separating the copper-foiled pieces.

Roseanne

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From owner-glass Sat Dec  7 19:39:26 1996
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From: Kay Allen <fullspec@scv.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My Page - New Stuff
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 1996 19:31:55 -0800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961208033155.006f9e24@mail.scv.net>
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 09:41:59 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Guitarshop Website
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 17:37:49 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.173749.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 08:04 PM 12/7/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Mike Peck wrote:
>> 
>> There was a message a couple of days ago on bungi that "Guitarshop" had
>> posted a new, or possibly updated their old website and left the address as:
>> 
>> www.members.gnn.com/Guitarshop    or     www.members.aol.com/Guitarshop
>snip-leave out the www- I just got him very quickly at
>http://members.gnn.com/guitarshop/index.htm
>Larry from Oz
>
You're right Larry, thanks, I found it!

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 09:43:54 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: circle/oval cutters
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 12:34:55 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.123455.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

can any one recommend a good circle/oval cutter such as, Fletcher...Glastar or Inland

Thanks Walter
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 10:27:26 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: travel cheap 2 - Chartres 97 perhaps???
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 1996 13:22:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.82239.0>
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Hi Elisabeth,

Just checked my "Delta Starving Artist" Deal-travel is only allowed November
1 thru March 14th on this deal.  So wont do.  

Do to some unexpected business, I may be able to make a trip to England my
self for this special-especially with your kind offfer of putting up us
glass-people during the England portion.  Will know more in the next two
weeks-would love to come to "Merry England"  and see the windows of Chartres
97.  keep me on the list.
New e-mail address-
leestat7@home.com   
I now have a cable modem , wow is it fast.  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 11:07:17 1996
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From: Kay Allen <fullspec@scv.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Mike's Lamp
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 11:00:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961208190017.006f7e30@mail.scv.net>
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My reply seems to have gotten lost again so I will repost.  
Mike, if "Fish Lamp" doesn't seem just right, how about using a
Spanish-Latin mix?             "Lampara Aquarium"
Really enjoyed viewing your new items.  You are extremely talented.
Kay

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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 11:39:10 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle/oval cutters
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 14:32:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.93235.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.123455.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Boatwright, W.L. wrote:
> 
> can any one recommend a good circle/oval cutter such as, Fletcher...Glastar or Inland
> 
> Thanks Walter
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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i can't be sure of it, but i think fletcher has an oval cutter that also
does glass, i hav'nt checked prices yet. and since i don't cut many
ovals, i may never know.  :)


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 11:50:27 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 14:43:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.94344.0>
References: <<1.5.4.32.19961208190017.006f7e30@mail.scv.net>>
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Kay Allen wrote:
> 
> My reply seems to have gotten lost again so I will repost.
> Mike, if "Fish Lamp" doesn't seem just right, how about using a
> Spanish-Latin mix?             "Lampara Aquarium"
> Really enjoyed viewing your new items.  You are extremely talented.
> Kay
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp i think i decided on a name though it still needs some fine tuning,
i got the idea (I think) from one of Toby's things. i'm thinking Oceana
or something like tha. the thing is, is do i call it just that, or can i
slip lamp or light in there somewhere, some how. or do i just keep it
simple?

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 12:10:22 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle/oval cutters
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 15:03:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.10326.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.123455.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Boatwright, W.L. wrote:
> 
> can any one recommend a good circle/oval cutter such as, Fletcher...Glastar or Inland
> 
> Thanks Walter

For Oval cutting, Fletcher makes one, and there is another called 
Cutter's Mate that is new this year.  I have never tried either of them, 
but from looking at the costs involved, unless you are really doing 
production work, and whipping them out big time, they are not worth it.
I use my Glastar strip/circle cutter and love it.  I also have an Inland 
strip/circle cutter and use it occasionally, but don't like it nearly as 
well as the Glastar.  The Glastar is plastic, versus the metal rod of 
the Inland (Mine has lasted over 11 years) and the inch markings haven't 
 worn off the way they did on the Inland.  The one benefit of the Inland 
that I can see, is that the rod has two set screws, so you can adjust 
either the cutting head, or the end where it rests on the guide.  Most 
of the time that doesn't make any difference to me, but up in my 
workshop area, I have a set of shelves behind my guide, and the extra 
rod hanging over catches on things sometimes.  (But I still don't use it 
very much, preferring the Glastar instead.)  The biggest drawback to the 
circle cutters as I see it is that they don't go small enough.  The base 
that they rotate around makes it impossible to make a circle smaller 
than the size of the base.  The circles I use for production stuff are 
smaller.  So I end up not using the circle cutter after all.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 13:14:46 1996
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From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle/oval cutters
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 13:16:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.51622.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.10326.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce wrote
  The biggest drawback to the
> circle cutters as I see it is that they don't go small enough.  The base
> that they rotate around makes it impossible to make a circle smaller
> than the size of the base.  The circles I use for production stuff are
> smaller.  So I end up not using the circle cutter after all.
> 
 Have you ever tried the Morton mini-circle cutter?  You do need the
turntable and cutter but I believe the cost a total of $24.00 and does
an acceptable job.  I wouldn't use it for a one time cut, but for
production work, the time you spend to set it up. would be justified.

Dave Loda
Stained Glass of newport
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 15:47:13 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Help
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 18:47:35 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.104735.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Someone please send me some mail I've got something stuck in the receive
box and I don't know if the whole thing is jammed. April 
-- 
****************
April 
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 16:20:18 1996
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From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 16:23:30 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.82330.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.104735.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

vgplugs@primeline.com wrote:
> 
> Someone please send me some mail I've got something stuck in the receive
> box and I don't know if the whole thing is jammed. April
> --
> ****************
> April
> vgplugs@primeline.com
> In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

April;

Have you received this.  Stupid question, how could you be reading this
if you didn't get it.

Dave Loda
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 16:47:46 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: homestead@europe.std.com
Subject: help
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 19:48:20 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.114820.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Thanks for the help. It was a digest from another list that got stuck.
Weird huh. I ran the Virus scan just in case. April 
-- 
****************
April 
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 16:49:05 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 19:50:01 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.11501.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.82330.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Dave Loda wrote:
> 
> vgplugs@primeline.com wrote:
> >
> > Someone please send me some mail I've got something stuck in the receive
> > box and I don't know if the whole thing is jammed. April
> > --
> > ****************
> > April
> > vgplugs@primeline.com
> > In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> April;
> 
> Have you received this.  Stupid question, how could you be reading this
> if you didn't get it.
> 
> Dave Loda
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

Thanks!

-- 
****************
April 
vgplugs@primeline.com
In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:13:52 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:34:42 +0000
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From:          izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date:          Fri, 6 Dec 1996 16:18:21 -0800
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

You wrote: 
>
>Elaine wrote:
NO!! Elaine Did NOT write!! This originated from Elisabeth 'n Toby ( 
a good case for selective editing!!)
>
>The Answer: NO, sorry. And it get more akward the further into the 
>middle of the panel that the piece is located.

this is true to a point, it is not an easy job by any means.

To make a proper and NEAT job of it, your real only solution is to 
de-solder your joints back to the offending piece, remove each piece of 
glass in turn and clean them thoroughly (if you have already cemented. 
Also to clean out 
>the lead came thouroughly).

With lead you can do a proper repair ( one that all but the most astute 
would not notice) though not without some skill. We do subtle and clean 
"drop in" repairs all the time. ( If not for drop ins many clients 
could not afford the cost of repairs or restorations.) The key to all 
of these types of undertaking is not to rush it. when opening the leads 
dont expect to "bend " it back nor fold it down all in one operation. 
do it slowly so as not to fatigue the metal. use picks to "fish" out 
the shards, and again, take your time. 
UNQUOTE

All of above further supports my original statement that this is NOT 
a job for the uninitiated.
I do NOT advocate the "bending" or "folding back" of old lead at all. It 
is a job that requires not only "some" skill (sic),  but quite a considerable 
one. I have never once in over 20 years seen such a repair, carried 
out in this manner, looking anything but a total mess, yet carried 
out by so called skilled "professionals".
Although I most certainly do not dispute the fact that it CAN be done 
(you have done it, I have done it) I do dispute the illusion that , 
hey presto! just go and do it and it'll be fine and nobody will 
notice. Just take your time.... Again, don't underestimate perception 
of a job well done or not well done. When people have to put their 
hands in their pockets to pay for a "repair", they jolly well ARE 
astute!! They will even comment on the difference in the COLOUR 
between a new solder joint and an old solder joint (that you haven't 
even touched)
I can tell you many absurd stories about just how "astute" customers 
can often be.And what merry hell they create when they do not get 
their perceived idea of perfection. Let's get real here!.
Repairs and renovations, from your point of view, is a complete money 
waster. You cannot charge for the work involved. What you DO 
undertake, undertake only because the stained glass is exceptional 
and only YOU can save it. It is basically an act of charity from your 
point of view. It's cheaper and more profitable to make a brand new 
stained glass.
That's the bottom line. It may sound negative at first reading. It 
isn't! Look on it as a kind of "survival kit".
The debate in UK currently about repairs & renovations is really 
quite "hot". A lot of questions are being asked, and a lot of 
proposals for new standards, qualifications and so on. Quite rightly 
so.
It looks so good and easy and "easy money" to replace a broken piece 
in a panel.  You put the panel on your mounting table and start 
bending & folding lead. Bang! a piece of glass further on just 
cracked. Wonderful!!! Even more so when you discover that this 
particular texture/colour has not been manufactured for the last 
70-odd years and you have no hope in matching it. Even MORE fun, when 
the glass is 200 - 400 years old...... That really gets the blood 
pressure going. All you wanted to do was to "drop in" a piece of new 
glass, bone the lead down, solder up the odd joint or or two and - 
hey presto - job done! Easy money...!
It isn't quite like that.
Please don't be fooled
Think twice!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:13:52 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:34:42 +0000
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OK Mike,
I have failed you totally :-(   , Swedish mythology obviously not good 
enough. I feel totally abjected, rejected and devastated    ;-) But 
you must admit, I got a debate going. I will fuel it again, whenever 
the opportunity presents itself. FISH LAMP just is NOT on!! a  
proper, deserving NAME just has to be found!!!!!
What's wrong with Poseidon xxxx, as Mary suggested??? That - surely - 
should trip off the tongue easily and be understood, no??
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:14:27 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:34:42 +0000
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Hi Mike,
mmmmmmmm, yes I get your point.
Me Iam a foreigner wherever I am. And - these days - it includes my 
home land Sweden.. Sad, perhaps - but true. I have been to most 
corners of the Earth, but NOT yet to USA
My ideas about USA  are formed by the Americans I have met here in UK 
(or abroad) during my career. .Right up to my middle-age stained 
glass NEW career, I never had any wish to vist USA. NOW I do...
Your cars and your "Fish Lamp" really got my guts, and there is no 
way I will be satisfied until we really do get a name YOU will be 
happy with.
I am slowly winding myself  to a total financial ruination in that I 
just KNOW, I will have to "feel"  the stained glass art and Artists in 
the USA in person.There is so much the OLD and the NEW can 
exchange!!!
Arousing interest, controversy, brain-waves and ideas for your lamp 
is begining to interfer . It's a great lamp, Mike. so don't  be too  
silly about it, or I just might come  over and haunt you in 
person....
Elisabeth 'n Toby 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:15:02 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Newbies Replies - Thank you
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:34:41 +0000
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QUOTE:
Toby,
I agree that you folks have been offering great tips. As another newbie
to stained glass, and as a new lurker for the last two weeks, I've
already picked up many nifty ideas and techniques, which I truly
appreciate.  Thank you for sharing them.  Perhaps in the future I will
have something to contribute also.  (I can imagine what a great tool all
the accumulated tips will be, and I've started saving them for when I'm
in trouble or need advice.)

Right now my local dealer is trying to talk me into buying a ring saw
over the band.  $$$  Hard to decide, but the ring saw is so tempting...

I've also enjoyed viewing all the fantastic stained glass pieces.  What
a wonderful resource you offer, in addition to the inspiration your work
and art gives!!!  

THANK  YOU  ALL,  AND  PLEASE  KEEP  UP  THE  GREAT  CONVERSATION, TOO.
smiles from
--Pam in Texas--
=================

UNQUOTE
Thank you for your input. And how very gracious of you.

Whether you are a "newbie", a "lurker" or an "oldie", there is often 
the same question raised only months apart. A "newbie" or a "lurker" 
often have to make their first tentative and anxious entry into the 
Group. Very often there is a serious question attached. How many of 
you are aware of the fact that our Moderator Glenna Rand also 
provides a quite extensisive "Archives Library" ??
Don't forget to dip into that. It may have the perfect answer to your 
question. The answer to  many questions comes so very willingly, 
readily and quickly from our stalwarts. But now and then, that very same question 
has been aired, discussed and debated only a couple of months or so 
before. And I think that in many cases, you should be able to find 
that discussion in Glenna's Archives.
It's there for you to dip into. She is doing a wonderful back-stage 
service. Don't forget and do dip into these resources too.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:15:37 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Newbies
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 03:34:42 +0000
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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This is Elisabeth 'n Toby,
Quoting in full:
I agree that you folks have been offering great tips. As another newbie
to stained glass, and as a new lurker for the last two weeks, I've
already picked up many nifty ideas and techniques, which I truly
appreciate.  Thank you for sharing them.  Perhaps in the future I will
have something to contribute also.  (I can imagine what a great tool all
the accumulated tips will be, and I've started saving them for when I'm
in trouble or need advice.)
UNQUOTE
Dear Pam in Texas,
Thank you for your posting into the glass@bungi group. How very 
gracious and kind of you. Although you adressed it to "Toby", there 
are many serious professionals amongst us. And in all honesty, some 
of them  are pretty instant in hitting the keyboard, penning a sage, 
wise and informed reply to a "newbie's" question. Poor old "toby" is 
often caught fast asleep.....
I am myself based in the UK; there are often questions and subjects I 
feel are more pertinent to US solutioins. My contriibutions would be 
out of place and out-of-date. I am not quite sure how the "guys" 
Across the Pond view me and my European perspective (and my Swedish 
wicked sense of humour...), but I am a traditionalist and will - 
whenever possible - try to marry new and old.
I have 2 missions in my remaining years:1;  to make stained glass that I 
can be proud of;
2:, To teach, to pass on , to create professionals/ competitors who will keep on 
challenging me....
Hence, a "Newbie" is a gift....
OK?
Elisabeth 'n Toby
Right now my local dealer is trying to talk me into buying a ring saw
over the band.  $$$  Hard to decide, but the ring saw is so tempting...

I've also enjoyed viewing all the fantastic stained glass pieces.  What
a wonderful resource you offer, in addition to the inspiration your work
and art gives!!!  

THANK  YOU  ALL,  AND  PLEASE  KEEP  UP  THE  GREAT  CONVERSATION, TOO.
smiles from
--Pam in Texas--
=================

Toby wrote:
> 
> To: Newbie " T in Montana":
> 
> It was very innteresting to hear from you "newbie" of 2 years. I
> don't know how long you have been "lurking", but we have often had
> -over the months -  a deluge of "favourite stained glass tool",
> favourite stained glass method method,  favourite "new" stained glass
> idea; favourite conference/display/exhibition and even favourite
> stained glass home page. We have even exchanged "favourite music to work
> by".
> Lately we have seen a tremendous flow about the latest stained glass
> "baby" - the stained glass band saw, recipes for copper sulphate and
> many other topics.
> At one time, we even had a "secret bunker" where some of us would
> hide away with Albert for a secret smoke of nicotine.... We have had
> very thought-provoking questions about stained glass manufacturing
> from Poland .
> In amongst all of that, there has to be a little light relief, a
> laugh and a smile and a bit of human and personal conatct. All of us
> work in isolation - to quite a considerable extent. So when a
> "newbie" dip into us, you might initially get right into the middle
> of a frivolous exchange or into a heated debate about some rather
> narrow aspect of a method or a tool, where a lot of emotional content
> fly around. Once or twice there is a "language problem".
> The resolution of many of these things come from us having given each
> other a little insight in how we function as human beings and as
> stained glass artists.
> Please don't be put off, because we always enjoy new ideas, new
> input. New questions, new experiences. Whowever you are out there
> "newbie", just get the bit between your teet, pluck up courage & say
> your piece.
> MY favourite tool of the month; my lead snipper. I am watching it
> die... It's getting dull and old. We can't get them here i n the UK.
> In the stained glass business in the UK, it's regarded as "unpopular"
> and has therefore been discontinued. Mary, Kathe, Peggy; when you
> come over, THAT will be  item No. 1 on "Elisabeth's Wish List" Nice,
> sharp, keen, good quality lead snipper. To trim & mitre with razor
> edge accuracy.... (sigh!)
> NEW innovation: "dunno";  I am watching the band-saw discussion with
> great interest..... holding my fire. Otherwise stained glass computer
> soft-ware. Dragonfly "Glasseye" has now added their scanning/import
> facility . I am having difficulties with it and would like to hear
> comments from you all.... But then I do confess to being a total
> computer nerd....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:23:04 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: cutters
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 22:14:00 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.22140.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
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Thanks Guys for the information and input.
Hope you all have a nice night.

Walter
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:41:04 1996
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From: Warner-Crivellaro <warnerc@fast.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: grinders and bandsaws
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 22:37:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.17379.0>
References: <<961206191026.2520a66b@xavier.xu.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I have one more question on tools..you have been so kind on suggestions.
> Which glass grinder do you all suggest for someone?  I have used the
> Wizard and the Wizling...should I stick with one of these or choose
> something else?
> 
> Thanks again for you patience with this novice...
> Bye
> Elaine
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
Elaine,
The Wizard is a bigger and more powerful grinder. It has a larger work
surface which is nice for larger pieces of glass. Both grinders enable
you to do the work that you want to do. In response to your band saw
question, the Taurus II Ring Saw is a great "plug and play" band saw.
You can order it through Warner-Crivellaro Stained Glass, Inc. located
in Allentown, PA for $395. The number is 1-800-523-4242. The Gryphon is
also a good band saw which sells for $295. If you are ever in the area,
however, don't miss the opportunity to stop by and check out their
grinder and band saw station. They have every kind available for you to
try out and see which one you are more comfortable with. By the way ask
for a man by the name of Angelo. He is very knowledgable about these
grinders and bandsaws, as well as many other technical questions and can
answer anything you need to know. Hope this helped you out!
Elenie
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:43:05 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: travel cheap 2 - Chartres 97 perhaps???
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 04:04:30 +0000
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Lee Boe,
Good on you.
Keep it going.
Will keep you posted
Hope very much to see you.


KATHE McDonald,
please send me an e-mail. Any nonsense will do. Am hoping to pick up 
your e-mail address as I am having difficulties getting through to 
you by manually typing it.

Sorry folks for this posting. Please accept apologies.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:43:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 22:36:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.173642.0>
References: <<199612090309.DAA07131@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Toby wrote:
> 
> Hi Mike,
> mmmmmmmm, yes I get your point.
> Me Iam a foreigner wherever I am. And - these days - it includes my
> home land Sweden.. Sad, perhaps - but true. I have been to most
> corners of the Earth, but NOT yet to USA
> My ideas about USA  are formed by the Americans I have met here in UK
> (or abroad) during my career. .Right up to my middle-age stained
> glass NEW career, I never had any wish to vist USA. NOW I do...
> Your cars and your "Fish Lamp" really got my guts, and there is no
> way I will be satisfied until we really do get a name YOU will be
> happy with.
> I am slowly winding myself  to a total financial ruination in that I
> just KNOW, I will have to "feel"  the stained glass art and Artists in
> the USA in person.There is so much the OLD and the NEW can
> exchange!!!
> Arousing interest, controversy, brain-waves and ideas for your lamp
> is begining to interfer . It's a great lamp, Mike. so don't  be too
> silly about it, or I just might come  over and haunt you in
> person....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


ok i just updated the page, geocities is back up again, i have no idea
why it sent down yesterday. and the only reason i found out is because
everyday i go to my counter page, and that day i only had 3 hits,
currently i average between 60 to 90 hits per day. anyhow, i just added
another 3-d, 3 panels, and the other side of my lamp. i also upgrade the
colors, so now you can get a better feel as to what it looks like.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:43:40 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 04:04:30 +0000
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From:          Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Help
Date:          Sun, 08 Dec 1996 16:23:30 -0800
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

vgplugs@primeline.com wrote:
> 
> Someone please send me some mail I've got something stuck in the receive
> box and I don't know if the whole thing is jammed. April
> --
> ****************
> April
> vgplugs@primeline.com
> In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> ----
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April;

Have you received this.  Stupid question, how could you be reading this
if you didn't get it.

Dave Loda
----
Yep, Dave - totally stupid, yet I will fall  into the same trap!
Did you get this April??
Thank you for Hot Toddy at Christmas and
Politically Correct Santa (certainly caused a chuckle or two!!) and my 
personalized Christmas Greeting, that I am saving to last!!
No wonder your system is clogged up!!!

Toby is in the middle of penning HIS own letter...
Elisabeth ( no Toby - .... he's too busy).

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:45:09 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 22:38:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec8.173838.0>
References: <<199612090309.DAA07155@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> OK Mike,
> I have failed you totally :-(   , Swedish mythology obviously not good
> enough. I feel totally abjected, rejected and devastated    ;-) But
> you must admit, I got a debate going. I will fuel it again, whenever
> the opportunity presents itself. FISH LAMP just is NOT on!! a
> proper, deserving NAME just has to be found!!!!!
> What's wrong with Poseidon xxxx, as Mary suggested??? That - surely -
> should trip off the tongue easily and be understood, no??
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp, i'm still leaning towards oceana or oceanus or something like
that, but maybe now we can mix the two. and make a semi-common word with
a sort of not-so-common word.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Sun Dec  8 19:57:44 1996
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X-Path: nz1.netzone.com!lorley
From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Bullseye
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 1996 20:58:34 -0700
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961209035834.006b28ac@mail.netzone.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said it's
difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 03:51:09 1996
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From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: "\"Lorley L. Oneyear\"" <lorley@netzone.com>, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: 09 Dec 96 06:46:06 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.11466.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Warm up the glass prior to cutting.  I place mine atop a space heater (the very
safe oil heating type on rollers) and warm it up.  I swear this makes the glass
very happy and helps with 'difficult' glass cutting.
...Christie

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 03:55:43 1996
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X-Path: coventry.ac.uk!byx015
From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: green backed foil?
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 11:50:58 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.115058.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Can anybody advise me if there are any suppliers of foil with a 
coloured backing? I want to make a terrarium which will have a
verdigris finish to copper plating over the solder and would like
the inside of the foil to be as close a match as possible. 

Alternatively, has anybody tried dying the stickum on foil? or 
any other way of getting a green backing?

Another question. I have made a number of terraria but the plants
keep dieing. My suspicion is that either copper or lead from the 
foil is contaminating the soil, does anybody have any advice?

Thanks for any help.

Mike.


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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 04:52:25 1996
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	id m0vX580-0000Z8a; Mon, 9 Dec 96 04:48 PST
X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 07:45:29 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.24529.0>
References: <<1996Dec9.11466.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo wrote:
> 
> Warm up the glass prior to cutting.  I place mine atop a space heater (the very
> safe oil heating type on rollers) and warm it up.  I swear this makes the glass
> very happy and helps with 'difficult' glass cutting.
> ...Christie

Ditto.  I spent the weekend cutting a very delicate Kokomo ripple glass. 
 I put the pieces on top of my oil heating space heater, and only had to 
recut 4 pieces.  One piece shattered as I tried to break off one side of 
the piece (didn't mess us the piece I was cutting) and when I heated up 
the piece again, the other side cut great.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 05:32:24 1996
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From: "Edward W. Reitmann" <oddjob@calhoun.lakes.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 07:26:20 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.12620.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


------ =_NextPart_000_01BBE5A2.4BDA9720
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I heard that same myth ....not true! Bullseye is one of my favorite =
types of glass to work with. Get some scrap Bullseye from your supplier =
and practice some and then you decide. If
you are doing a rose window the pieces shouldn't be very large or have =
many difficult cuts so I don't think it would be all that difficult. Are =
you using one of the new Rose Window forms that is on the market? I've =
been curious to  know how they are to work with.Keep us posted.
Sue Reitmann
Artistry In Glass
Shorewood, MN

----------
From: 	Lorley L. Oneyear[SMTP:lorley@netzone.com]
Sent: 	Sunday, December 08, 1996 9:58 PM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	Bullseye

Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said =
it's
difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix

----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 05:50:27 1996
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From: "Edward W. Reitmann" <oddjob@calhoun.lakes.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: green backed foil?
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 07:44:25 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.14425.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


------ =_NextPart_000_01BBE5A4.CFA64C00
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



----------
From: 	Mike Simpson[SMTP:byx015@coventry.ac.uk]
Sent: 	Monday, December 09, 1996 5:50 AM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	green backed foil?


Can anybody advise me if there are any suppliers of foil with a 
coloured backing? I want to make a terrarium which will have a
verdigris finish to copper plating over the solder and would like
the inside of the foil to be as close a match as possible. 

Alternatively, has anybody tried dying the stickum on foil? or 
any other way of getting a green backing?

Another question. I have made a number of terraria but the plants
keep dieing. My suspicion is that either copper or lead from the 
foil is contaminating the soil, does anybody have any advice?

Thanks for any help.

Mike.
How about linning the terrium with plain sheet glass and using silicone glue on the joints
(like they do with fish aquarriums? ) Maybe one of our "chemist" folks will have an answer for the verdigris problem
Sue Reitmann
Artistry In Glass
Shorewood, MN

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 05:50:28 1996
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Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vX62I-0000G8a; Mon, 9 Dec 96 05:46 PST
X-Path: sympatico.ca!taylor_buckner
From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: circle cutters
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 08:45:42 -0500
Message-ID: <199612091345.IAA25716@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

        Hi Walter (Boatwright)
        If you're going to be cutting a lot of large circles I can highly
recommend the "Filberschnitt" cutter, made in Germany.  It's really
expensive but excellent quality, has a 24" radius (thus a 48" diameter), and
the pivot is a strong suction cup that doesn't need any extra pressure once
it's stuck in place.  The problem I have with other circle cutters I've used
is that you have to keep pressing the center as you cut and end up looking
like a bit of a contortionist by the time the circle is completely cut.
        If you have very small circles in mind, have a look at the Fletcher
Lens Cutter in the Delphi catalogue.  They cut down to 3/8" circles
according to the write-up.  I have one but as yet haven't had occasion to
use it, so I can't say for sure whether or not it's worth the $.  Regards,
Jennifer

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:01:45 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: green backed foil?
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:54:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.45456.0>
References: <<1996Dec9.115058.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Simpson wrote:
> 
> Can anybody advise me if there are any suppliers of foil with a
> coloured backing? I want to make a terrarium which will have a
> verdigris finish to copper plating over the solder and would like
> the inside of the foil to be as close a match as possible.
> 
> Alternatively, has anybody tried dying the stickum on foil? or
> any other way of getting a green backing?
> 
> Another question. I have made a number of terraria but the plants
> keep dieing. My suspicion is that either copper or lead from the
> foil is contaminating the soil, does anybody have any advice?
> 
> Thanks for any help.
> 
> Mike.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


as far as i know there is'nt any green backed foil, not enough need for
one. they have copper, silver and black. the only thing i can think of
is to do 1 of 2 things:

1. wrap pieces in copper foil with out the stickem (like tiffany),
you'll probably have to make it your self. this way the green solution
may be able to works it's way in and do it's job.

2. on the same note, if you can find copper sheet large enough and thin
enough, you maybe able to put green patina on it first. let it turn
green. then put a spray adhesive on it. then cut it into strips. alot of
work for one project...huh?

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can 
see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:03:48 1996
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From: Terry Biegler <tbiegler@OnlineToday.Com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 09:00:30 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612091500.JAA11356@online.OnlineToday.Com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass with my
trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting splattered
with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or hints
would be appreciated. Thanks!

Terry

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:06:07 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle cutters
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:59:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.45922.0>
References: <<199612091345.IAA25716@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         Hi Walter (Boatwright)
>         If you're going to be cutting a lot of large circles I can highly
> recommend the "Filberschnitt" cutter, made in Germany.  It's really
> expensive but excellent quality, has a 24" radius (thus a 48" diameter), and
> the pivot is a strong suction cup that doesn't need any extra pressure once
> it's stuck in place.  The problem I have with other circle cutters I've used
> is that you have to keep pressing the center as you cut and end up looking
> like a bit of a contortionist by the time the circle is completely cut.
>         If you have very small circles in mind, have a look at the Fletcher
> Lens Cutter in the Delphi catalogue.  They cut down to 3/8" circles
> according to the write-up.  I have one but as yet haven't had occasion to
> use it, so I can't say for sure whether or not it's worth the $.  Regards,
> Jennifer
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i have the fletcher lens cutter mentioned above. it does cut well,
between 3/8" to about 3 or so inches. the only hard parts are: it's hard
to get a real accurate circle, since you have to find the center first.
also the glass may move on you while your turning the handle and
applying pressure.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can 
see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:32:36 1996
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From: UURESPES@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:29:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.52951.0>
References: <<1996Dec8.104735.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

THIS IS PROBABLY THE HUNDRETH PIECE YOU'VE GOTTEN BUT HERE I GO, HOPE
THIS HELPS. GOOD LUCK.
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:34:05 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:30:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.5309.0>
References: <<199612091500.JAA11356@online.OnlineToday.Com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Terry Biegler wrote:
> 
> I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
> lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass with my
> trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting splattered
> with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or hints
> would be appreciated. Thanks!
> 
> Terry
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i have a lapidary saw a 6" gemstone. it does'nt cut flat glass well it
tends to crack do to vibration. however it should be able to cut thicker
glass like dalle glass that 1" stuff. i was hoping to be able to cut
bottles on that thing, but apparently i can'nt. but i can cut rocks and
i just got the bevel max, so i should be able to polish my agates. BTW
you would'nt happen to have a catalog taht sells decent uncut or cut
agates would you? the only polished agates i found are at meuseums or
fleamarkets. and uncut's, once at a zinc mine.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can 
see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:40:43 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 15:36:21 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.153621.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 03:58 AM 12/9/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said it's
>difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix
>


Bullseye is one of my personal favorites and I have not experienced any
difficulty in cutting it.  Just make sure you have a good cutter, ie,
carbide wheel and don't "over-score".  Sometimes when people spend a bit
more for glass, the first thing they try to do is put more pressure into the
score to be sure they get a good score and they end up over-scoring and
shattering the glass.. Just treat it like any ordinary glass and you should
do fine.

Just a side note.....I have experienced difficulty cutting Youghiogheny
(stipples) and Armstrong.  I think the the annealing process leaves it with
some internal stress that can cause some frustration .............

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 07:46:22 1996
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From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Mike's Lamp
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 09:44:21 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961209154421.0090f89c@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Pacific Phosphor

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 14:32:02 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 16:26:39 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612092226.QAA02433@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:
>
>
>welp i think i decided on a name though it still needs some fine tuning,
>i got the idea (I think) from one of Toby's things. i'm thinking Oceana
>or something like tha. the thing is, is do i call it just that, or can i
>slip lamp or light in there somewhere, some how. or do i just keep it
>simple?
>
>---Mike Savad


how about Luminoceana?

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 15:45:20 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 17:40:22 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612092340.RAA04516@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 03:36 PM 12/9/96 +0000, Mike  Peck wrote:
>At 03:58 AM 12/9/96 +0000, you wrote:
>>Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said it's
>>difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix
>>
>
>
>Bullseye is one of my personal favorites and I have not experienced any
>difficulty in cutting it.  Just make sure you have a good cutter, ie,
>carbide wheel and don't "over-score".  Sometimes when people spend a bit
>more for glass, the first thing they try to do is put more pressure into the
>score to be sure they get a good score and they end up over-scoring and
>shattering the glass.. Just treat it like any ordinary glass and you should
>do fine.

Right on, I also try to use bullseye when appropriate their white/dark brown
streaky I think is the finest brown on the market (not a better glass for a
bald eagle IMHO) I also used the cranberry/pink cath on a recent project,
outstanding color! As with any single rolled glass the surface
irregularities can be a little itimidating just follow the above advice and
you'll be okay. Be careful with the solid color opals as they can be quite
dense. The sample set pieces tend to be more translucent then the actual
sheet average. Refuse to be Spectrumized! Good Luck

Len

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 16:51:37 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 19:43:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.144354.0>
References: <<1996Dec9.153621.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Peck wrote:
> 
> At 03:58 AM 12/9/96 +0000, you wrote:
> >Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said it's
> >difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix
> >
> 
> Bullseye is one of my personal favorites and I have not experienced any
> difficulty in cutting it.  Just make sure you have a good cutter, ie,
> carbide wheel and don't "over-score".  Sometimes when people spend a bit
> more for glass, the first thing they try to do is put more pressure into the
> score to be sure they get a good score and they end up over-scoring and
> shattering the glass.. Just treat it like any ordinary glass and you should
> do fine.
> 
> Just a side note.....I have experienced difficulty cutting Youghiogheny
> (stipples) and Armstrong.  I think the the annealing process leaves it with
> some internal stress that can cause some frustration .............
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i know the person who i get glass from, he says he does'nt like getting
armstrong, because the glass is either warped or just simply breaks in
transit more often.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 16:58:28 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 19:50:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.145051.0>
References: <<199612092226.QAA02433@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
> At 02:
> >
> >
> >welp i think i decided on a name though it still needs some fine tuning,
> >i got the idea (I think) from one of Toby's things. i'm thinking Oceana
> >or something like tha. the thing is, is do i call it just that, or can i
> >slip lamp or light in there somewhere, some how. or do i just keep it
> >simple?
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> 
> how about Luminoceana?
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


sounds kinda like a state. or a refreshing drink...;)

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 17:02:34 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 19:54:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec9.145459.0>
References: <<199612092340.RAA04516@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
> At 03:36 PM 12/9/96 +0000, Mike  Peck wrote:
> >At 03:58 AM 12/9/96 +0000, you wrote:
> >>Going to be making a rose panel with Bullseye glass. My retailer said it's
> >>difficult to work with. Any hints on easy cutting?? Lorley in Phoenix
> >>
> >
> >
> >Bullseye is one of my personal favorites and I have not experienced any
> >difficulty in cutting it.  Just make sure you have a good cutter, ie,
> >carbide wheel and don't "over-score".  Sometimes when people spend a bit
> >more for glass, the first thing they try to do is put more pressure into the
> >score to be sure they get a good score and they end up over-scoring and
> >shattering the glass.. Just treat it like any ordinary glass and you should
> >do fine.
> 
> Right on, I also try to use bullseye when appropriate their white/dark brown
> streaky I think is the finest brown on the market (not a better glass for a
> bald eagle IMHO) I also used the cranberry/pink cath on a recent project,
> outstanding color! As with any single rolled glass the surface
> irregularities can be a little itimidating just follow the above advice and
> you'll be okay. Be careful with the solid color opals as they can be quite
> dense. The sample set pieces tend to be more translucent then the actual
> sheet average. Refuse to be Spectrumized! Good Luck


oh sure, i mean i would'nt use a bunch of spectrum in a large panel, it
does'nt have any depth. bullseye is kind of pricey though. but if i were
to make a real nice window i'd choose the more expensive glass. i like
their matt irridesents the best, though i hav'nt seen alot, my store
does'nt carry much.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 19:34:26 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:29:31 -0800
Message-ID: <199612100329.TAA17098@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
>lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass 
with my
>trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting 
splattered
>with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or 
hints
>would be appreciated. Thanks!
>
>

Why would you want to do this? The only time it makes any sense is in 
cutting long thin pieces of Dalle De Ver which is 3/4 - 1" thick. For 
flat glass straight cuts are prohibitively slow on a saw. 

ms

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From owner-glass Mon Dec  9 19:58:12 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Replacing a glass piece
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 1996 19:20:40 -0800
Message-ID: <199612100320.TAA19703@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>

>You wrote: 
>>
>>Elaine wrote:
>NO!! Elaine Did NOT write!! This originated from Elisabeth 'n Toby ( 
>a good case for selective editing!!)




sorry




>>
>>The Answer: NO, sorry. And it get more akward the further into the 
>>middle of the panel that the piece is located.
>
>this is true to a point, it is not an easy job by any means.
>
>To make a proper and NEAT job of it, your real only solution is to 
>de-solder your joints back to the offending piece, remove each piece 
of 
>glass in turn and clean them thoroughly (if you have already cemented. 

>Also to clean out 
>>the lead came thouroughly).
>
>With lead you can do a proper repair ( one that all but the most 
astute 
>would not notice) though not without some skill. We do subtle and 
clean 
>"drop in" repairs all the time. ( If not for drop ins many clients 
>could not afford the cost of repairs or restorations.) The key to all 
>of these types of undertaking is not to rush it. when opening the 
leads 
>dont expect to "bend " it back nor fold it down all in one operation. 
>do it slowly so as not to fatigue the metal. use picks to "fish" out 
>the shards, and again, take your time. 
>UNQUOTE
>
>All of above further supports my original statement that this is NOT 
>a job for the uninitiated.
>I do NOT advocate the "bending" or "folding back" of old lead at all. 
It 
>is a job that requires not only "some" skill (sic),  but quite a 
considerable 
>one. I have never once in over 20 years seen such a repair, carried 
>out in this manner, looking anything but a total mess, yet carried 
>out by so called skilled "professionals".
>Although I most certainly do not dispute the fact that it CAN be done 
>(you have done it, I have done it) I do dispute the illusion that , 
>hey presto! just go and do it and it'll be fine and nobody will 
>notice. Just take your time.... Again, don't underestimate perception 
>of a job well done or not well done. When people have to put their 
>hands in their pockets to pay for a "repair", they jolly well ARE 
>astute!! They will even comment on the difference in the COLOUR 
>between a new solder joint and an old solder joint (that you haven't 
>even touched)
>I can tell you many absurd stories about just how "astute" customers 
>can often be.And what merry hell they create when they do not get 
>their perceived idea of perfection. Let's get real here!.
>Repairs and renovations, from your point of view, is a complete money 
>waster. You cannot charge for the work involved. What you DO 
>undertake, undertake only because the stained glass is exceptional 
>and only YOU can save it. It is basically an act of charity from your 
>point of view. It's cheaper and more profitable to make a brand new 
>stained glass.
>That's the bottom line. It may sound negative at first reading. It 
>isn't! Look on it as a kind of "survival kit".
>The debate in UK currently about repairs & renovations is really 
>quite "hot". A lot of questions are being asked, and a lot of 
>proposals for new standards, qualifications and so on. Quite rightly 
>so.
>It looks so good and easy and "easy money" to replace a broken piece 
>in a panel.  You put the panel on your mounting table and start 
>bending & folding lead. Bang! a piece of glass further on just 
>cracked. Wonderful!!! Even more so when you discover that this 
>particular texture/colour has not been manufactured for the last 
>70-odd years and you have no hope in matching it. Even MORE fun, when 
>the glass is 200 - 400 years old...... That really gets the blood 
>pressure going. All you wanted to do was to "drop in" a piece of new 
>glass, bone the lead down, solder up the odd joint or or two and - 
>hey presto - job done! Easy money...!
>It isn't quite like that.
>Please don't be fooled
>Think twice!!
>Elisabeth 'n Toby
>
>----



Though you raise some good points the original discusion was about the 
repair of a single piece of glass in a new window, not about matching 
200- 400 year old glass in a historic piece. If you are intimating that 
repairs to leaded glass windows are not to be undertaken without totaly 
releading, or if they are done it is only done for the "quick buck" I 
take particular exception to that. I also beg to differ with your 
assertion that in 20 years you have never seen a lead drop in repair 
done in a professional manner. I wonder where you have been looking?
( although as I stated a properly done lead repair is barely 
discernable. It is posible that you have indeed seen many such repairs 
and not realized it.)

 Though it is not the optimal method for repair, it certainly beats 
making a new panel on a new (or old) window that may represent many 
hours of work. Have you ever heard of Tiffanys knocking out pieces in 
new windows if something about the glass displeased him? Do you think 
that the craftsmen then trashed the panel and produced a new one with 
one different piece? Do you think that all of the panels produced in a 
studio get through all of the various process involved with no 
breakage, and if such occures the only recourse is to fabricate a new 
panel to replace the damaged piece? Again I say that drop in leaded 
repairs can be done in such a way and with such skill that most people 
could not tell that any work was done ( except that the window no 
longer has a hole in it.) I have restored many a window (including 
total releads) where the only way I could tell a repair was done was 
when the piece did not fit properly in the releading. 

You are correct in stating that sometimes it is quicker and/or cheaper 
to fabricate a new window, though often this is impractical or just not 
possible.

Repairs are just that, repairs. A client needs to be made aware up 
front that they are not to receive a new window. I find it hard to 
believe that after being in this industry for as many years as you 
state that you have such a concept of repair work. What do you propose 
to a client who has a panel that has been in his home for years and his 
son or neighbor has hit it playing ball or similar problems? There are 
one, two or so pieces shattered in a panel of 150 pieces. Should the 
client be told the only valid option is to fabricate a new panel, or 
dissasemble and relead the exsisting? 

Actually I find most clients quite reasonably in accepting properly 
done repair work. Most are thrilled that anything can be done to save 
their windows. Most people grow very fond of these beautiful jewels in 
their homes and are quite appreciative of a job  done well and within 
their budgets. 

Repairs, restoration ,conservation all of these methods are valid and 
sound in different instances when done in a professional and 
craftsmanlike manner. It is up to the client and the other involved 
parties to determine which route should be taken for the piece in 
question. 


ms

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 06:03:19 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!70544.3642
From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Book reviewers galore!
Date: 10 Dec 96 08:57:28 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.135728.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Last week, we asked if anyone here would be interested in reviewing a new
pattern book Dover Publications had sent to us.  We had no idea so many would
volunteer!  Thanks goes to Mike Savad, Michael and Jan Read, Joyce Moran, pj
friend, Charles Spitzer, Rebecca Smith, Michael McGrew, Gary Shultz, Bob Jones,
Peggy Johnsen, Jennifer Buckner, Elisabeth of Elisabeth 'n Toby, Christie Wood,
and Kathy Sagy ... not necessarily in the order they volunteered, but with
gratitude for their enthusiasm and willingness to do the job.

The book's going out today by Priority Mail to Michael McGrew, who will be
expected to look the book over and email us his comments as soon as possible.
Congratulations, Michael, if that's the right word. <s>  We're looking forward
to what you have to say in the next issue of Common Ground: Glass.

This was a tough decision, since everyone else made a good case for themselves
as being qualified to review the book.  We agreed with each of them and are
sorry that we had only one book to review ... Since you're all so willing, as
well as capable, we'll have to look around for other things to review, won't we?
<s>

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 06:05:11 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;@compuserve,.com
Subject: Short IGGA Online Memo!
Date: 10 Dec 96 08:58:51 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.135851.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


The IGGA Online Memo will no longer be posted in its entirety to the list;
instead, it is being set up as a hyperlinked document on our website, which has
undergone significant changes over the past few days.  The site address is on
the last line of this message.

Just click on the IGGA ONLINE MEMO button to get a list of all of the past
memos, as well as the most recent ones.  In future, we'll just notify you that a
new memo has been added to the list.  If you're interested in the information,
you can take a look.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                Tonetta Lake Road  ***   Brewster NY 10509
                (914) 278-2152 [msg]   Fax: (914) 278-2481
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 09:21:16 1996
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From: Terry Biegler <tbiegler@OnlineToday.Com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:16:41 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612101716.LAA16767@online.OnlineToday.Com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 10:30 AM 12/9/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Terry Biegler wrote:
>> 
>> I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
>> lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass with my
>> trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting splattered
>> with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or hints
>> would be appreciated. Thanks!
>> 
>> Terry
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>i have a lapidary saw a 6" gemstone. it does'nt cut flat glass well it
>tends to crack do to vibration. however it should be able to cut thicker
>glass like dalle glass that 1" stuff. i was hoping to be able to cut
>bottles on that thing, but apparently i can'nt. but i can cut rocks and
>i just got the bevel max, so i should be able to polish my agates. BTW
>you would'nt happen to have a catalog taht sells decent uncut or cut
>agates would you? the only polished agates i found are at meuseums or
>fleamarkets. and uncut's, once at a zinc mine.
>
>---Mike Savad
No, sorry, no catalogs. I get most of my agate (that I don't collect myself
when I can) at gem and mineral shows, swap meets, club auctions, etc.
Probably better prices this way than through a catalog. Check with a local
rock club if there is one. Thanks for your reply. I will have to try sawing
a piece of glass to see if my equipment will handle it.

Terry

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 09:23:28 1996
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From: Terry Biegler <tbiegler@OnlineToday.Com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 11:19:08 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612101719.LAA16841@online.OnlineToday.Com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 07:29 PM 12/9/96 -0800, you wrote:
>You wrote: 
>>
>>I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
>>lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass 
>with my
>>trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting 
>splattered
>>with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or 
>hints
>>would be appreciated. Thanks!
>>
>>
>
>Why would you want to do this? The only time it makes any sense is in 
>cutting long thin pieces of Dalle De Ver which is 3/4 - 1" thick. For 
>flat glass straight cuts are prohibitively slow on a saw. 
>
>ms
Someone approached me about cutting some vintage glass into rectangle
shapes. Since I am not the greatest glass cutter I thought it might be less
risky to saw it.

Terry

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 15:12:56 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 15:07:53 -0800
Message-ID: <199612102307.PAA20867@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>At 07:29 PM 12/9/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>You wrote: 
>>>
>>
>>
>>Why would you want to do this?

 
>Someone approached me about cutting some vintage glass into rectangle
>shapes. Since I am not the greatest glass cutter I thought it might be 
less
>risky to saw it.
>
>Terry
>
It is not nessesarily less risky to cut on a saw. As with any task 
experience with the tools and the materials is key to sucess. If you 
have concerns about the cutting let your client decide if the risk is 
worth it. As Mike Savad mentioned diamond saws are not realy made to 
cut flat glass. If you doubt your abilities it is probably best you 
pass on this particular project.

ms

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 18:23:41 1996
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From: Warner-Crivellaro <warnerc@fast.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle cutters
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:18:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.161846.0>
References: <<199612091345.IAA25716@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         Hi Walter (Boatwright)
>         If you're going to be cutting a lot of large circles I can highly
> recommend the "Filberschnitt" cutter, made in Germany.  It's really
> expensive but excellent quality, has a 24" radius (thus a 48" diameter), and
> the pivot is a strong suction cup that doesn't need any extra pressure once
> it's stuck in place.  The problem I have with other circle cutters I've used
> is that you have to keep pressing the center as you cut and end up looking
> like a bit of a contortionist by the time the circle is completely cut.
>         If you have very small circles in mind, have a look at the Fletcher
> Lens Cutter in the Delphi catalogue.  They cut down to 3/8" circles
> according to the write-up.  I have one but as yet haven't had occasion to
> use it, so I can't say for sure whether or not it's worth the $.  Regards,
> Jennifer
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
If you have trouble getting a decent circle try flipping the glass over
onto a soft surface such as a carpet. Lightly apply pressure around the
circle so you draw the score through the glass. Flip the glass over
again and draw tangent lines to break the glass off. You will get a much
cleaner break that way. The Fletcher-Terry Lens Cutter is a good cutter
for small circles up to 5". Warner-Crivellaro Stained Glass, Inc. sells
it for $54.95. Hope this helps you out! 
Elenie
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 18:42:06 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:35:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.133534.0>
References: <<1996Dec9.145051.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty of the work. 
 You also don't have to get into details of where the fish come from, etc.  There have 
been a lot of other neat possible names suggested, but Oceana sounded right when you 
mentioned it.

Question for some of you.  I have been doing glass for about five years but very 
sporadically.  I remember taking my intro class and the instructor said that when she 
was quoting prices on a panel, or other object, she used a "by the minute" scale and 
figured that it took her three minutes per piece.  She estimates one minute in cutting 
and grinding, one minute for foiling and one minute for soldering.  I am no where close 
to this estimate, but like I said, I am really sporadic about working with glass and 
still consider myself a beginner.  She did beautiful work so it wasn't like she 
sacrificed in quality.  I was just curious whether some of you people who are really 
experienced find that that is a good guideline (now that I've seen Mike's work I won't 
consider myself experienced until I reach that level).

Just curious,

Sandy
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 19:05:54 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 21:58:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.165842.0>
References: <<199612101719.LAA16841@online.OnlineToday.Com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Terry Biegler wrote:
> 
> At 07:29 PM 12/9/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >You wrote:
> >>
> >>I do stained glass and I also do stone cutting and polishing. I have a
> >>lapidary trim saw. My question is: can I cut straight cuts in glass
> >with my
> >>trim saw. I use water in the saw because I don't like getting
> >splattered
> >>with oil! Anyone out there with experience doing this? Any tips or
> >hints
> >>would be appreciated. Thanks!
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Why would you want to do this? The only time it makes any sense is in
> >cutting long thin pieces of Dalle De Ver which is 3/4 - 1" thick. For
> >flat glass straight cuts are prohibitively slow on a saw.
> >
> >ms
> Someone approached me about cutting some vintage glass into rectangle
> shapes. Since I am not the greatest glass cutter I thought it might be less
> risky to saw it.
> 
> Terry
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


no it's definetly more risky using a saw, plus there's a chance of
scratching it also.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 19:06:03 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 19:01:09 -0800
Message-ID: <199612110301.TAA05347@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Hi,
>
>My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the 
beauty of the work. 
> You also don't have to get into details of where the fish come from, 
etc.  There have 
>been a lot of other neat possible names suggested, but Oceana sounded 
right when you 
>mentioned it.
>
>Question for some of you.  I have been doing glass for about five 
years but very 
>sporadically.  I remember taking my intro class and the instructor 
said that when she 
>was quoting prices on a panel, or other object, she used a "by the 
minute" scale and 
>figured that it took her three minutes per piece.  She estimates one 
minute in cutting 
>and grinding, one minute for foiling and one minute for soldering.  I 
am no where close 
>to this estimate, but like I said, I am really sporadic about working 
with glass and 
>still consider myself a beginner.  She did beautiful work so it wasn't 
like she 
>sacrificed in quality.  I was just curious whether some of you people 
who are really 
>experienced find that that is a good guideline (now that I've seen 
Mike's work I won't 
>consider myself experienced until I reach that level).
>
>Just curious,
>
>Sandy
>----


Sounds like a very low estimate.

ms
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 19:15:03 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 22:08:00 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.1780.0>
References: <<1996Dec10.133534.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty of the work.
>  You also don't have to get into details of where the fish come from, etc.  There have
> been a lot of other neat possible names suggested, but Oceana sounded right when you
> mentioned it.
> 
> Question for some of you.  I have been doing glass for about five years but very
> sporadically.  I remember taking my intro class and the instructor said that when she
> was quoting prices on a panel, or other object, she used a "by the minute" scale and
> figured that it took her three minutes per piece.  She estimates one minute in cutting
> and grinding, one minute for foiling and one minute for soldering.  I am no where close
> to this estimate, but like I said, I am really sporadic about working with glass and
> still consider myself a beginner.  She did beautiful work so it wasn't like she
> sacrificed in quality.  I was just curious whether some of you people who are really
> experienced find that that is a good guideline (now that I've seen Mike's work I won't
> consider myself experienced until I reach that level).
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> Sandy


welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
hour, sometimes...

---Mike Savad


-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 10 19:23:55 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: circle glass cutters
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 1996 22:14:16 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec10.221416.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

Thanks Elenie and every one that has answered really has been a big help.  Thanks

Y`all have a good night.
Walter
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 04:48:01 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: circle glass cutters
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 07:45:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.2454.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glass Cutters Revisited

Okay, I understand how a glass cuttter scores the glass but then you have 
to break away the scrap, right? Everything I've seen says you should score 
several places around tangent to the circle score line cause glass wants to 
go in a straight line. Tell me then, why does an often repeated photo of I 
think Glastar circle cutter show the score lines perpendicular to the 
circular score line? Wouldn't this break right through the center of the 
circle?

Linda Campbell

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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M;VT`4TU44 !G;&%S<T!B=6YG:2YC;VT`````'@`", $````%````4TU44 ``
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M`@$)$ $```#]`0``^0$``.X"``!,6D9UPD?JW?\`"@$/`A4"J 7K`H,`4 +R
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M@ C/"=D[\18/,C4U`H *@0VQ"V#@;F<Q,#,44 L*%%%E"_)C`$ @1PM@!!%#
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MX&&T(&<;`V,;81N!( 3PHP6P!Y%T:&4>Q6(;8)L@$@.@>0A@'F!A=B! 3'1O
M(+ 6$&%K'J!W9QU@(!,$\6%P'8 %$&<@:'0_($4AL')YZR @"X!G'9 G(;$1
ML"$A+G,=8 0@(5)S'G!U;%\>4!^S)-$C\0= ( M18]\'D0K "& >01XA9PGP
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!] `'
`
end

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 06:59:30 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: circle glass cutters
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 09:52:28 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.45228.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.2454.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Glass Cutters Revisited
> 
> Okay, I understand how a glass cuttter scores the glass but then you have
> to break away the scrap, right? Everything I've seen says you should score
> several places around tangent to the circle score line cause glass wants to
> go in a straight line. Tell me then, why does an often repeated photo of I
> think Glastar circle cutter show the score lines perpendicular to the
> circular score line? Wouldn't this break right through the center of the
> circle?
> 
> Linda Campbell
> 
>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>                Encoding: x-uuencode
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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with that method i usually tap the circle first then the lines. or try
breaking just the cirlce out and those would be the relief lines. i
personally score it in a pin wheel fashion going with the curve. i have
to also make sure that at least one of the lines goe from one end to the
other, as a starting break.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 07:09:14 1996
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X-Path: ll.mit.edu!cogen
From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 10:02:06 -0500
Message-ID: <9612111002.AA29611@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<199612110301.TAA05347@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Joseph Arthurs (or Sandy?) asks about per-piece time.

I am an amateur, but striving to be faster (and better). 

I used to keep records of my times. About the best I could do was 8 pieces per
hour. Your 3 minutes per piece is 20 pieces per hour. I don't think I could
ever approach that.

This time includes the follow steps:

cutting the pattern.
selecting glass from my bins.
tracing the pattern onto the glass.
cutting the glass.
grinding.
foiling.
assembling.
fluxing/soldering.
cleanup.


-- David.
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 07:25:42 1996
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 15:20:55 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.152055.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 03:08 AM 12/11/96 +0000, you wrote:

>
>welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
>picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
>do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
>the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
>divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
>hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
>around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
>are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
>charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
>hour, sometimes...
>
>---Mike Savad



Mike

You're labor rate is very low. From the things you have shared with us, you
should be 4-5 times your current rate.  Do you know how you compare with
your local artists?  Figure this ......... $13 per hour is barely $27,000
per year, if you're busy all the time, then subtract out your COGS and other
expenses and I know you can't be making a living on that in New Jersey.  

Seriously, an artist of your caliber should draw much more.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 08:20:40 1996
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From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:15:21 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.161521.0>
References: <<9612111002.AA29611@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, David Cogen wrote:

> 
> Joseph Arthurs (or Sandy?) asks about per-piece time.
> 
> I am an amateur, but striving to be faster (and better). 
> 
> I used to keep records of my times. About the best I could do was 8 pieces per
> hour. Your 3 minutes per piece is 20 pieces per hour. I don't think I could
> ever approach that.
> 
> This time includes the follow steps:
> 
> cutting the pattern.
> selecting glass from my bins.
> tracing the pattern onto the glass.
> cutting the glass.
> grinding.
> foiling.
> assembling.
> fluxing/soldering.
> cleanup.
> 
> 
> -- David.

I agree, 20 pieces per hour is almost unbelievable, I achieve as 
low as 3 to 5 pieces per hour.

Having said that, I did a time trial recently to see how fast it
could be done and found that cutting 64 squares, very lightly
grinding, foiling and soldering them I got about 52 pieces per 
hour. Of course, this does not include time to lay out the tools 
"just so", taking the phone off the hook and twenty minutes of
loosening up excercises and deep breating before starting. Nor
does it take into account time to make it look good enough to
throw into the bin.

On balance, I will be happy if I can get up to about 8 pieces per
per hour without loosing quality.


Mike Simpson.

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 08:40:44 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:32:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.63239.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.152055.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Peck wrote:
> 
> At 03:08 AM 12/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
> >picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
> >do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
> >the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
> >divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
> >hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
> >around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
> >are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
> >charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
> >hour, sometimes...
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> 
> Mike
> 
> You're labor rate is very low. From the things you have shared with us, you
> should be 4-5 times your current rate.  Do you know how you compare with
> your local artists?  Figure this ......... $13 per hour is barely $27,000
> per year, if you're busy all the time, then subtract out your COGS and other
> expenses and I know you can't be making a living on that in New Jersey.
> 
> Seriously, an artist of your caliber should draw much more.
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well basically i don't have a business, i work on a more lighter
caliber.. however if you were charging for my lamp, givin the info i
have on my page, how much would you charge for the lamp for example. i'm
still working on pricing methods and it's still a little loose.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 09:36:45 1996
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X-Path: worf.netins.net!sae
From: Scott Evans <sae@netins.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 11:31:31 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612111731.LAA21863@worf.netins.net>
References: <<1996Dec11.161521.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, David Cogen wrote:
> I agree, 20 pieces per hour is almost unbelievable, I achieve as 
> low as 3 to 5 pieces per hour.

My experience seems to show that I can do anywhere from 3-12 pieces per hour,
but it tends towards the 3-5 range.  I tend to be conservative in scoring, and
then do more grinding to bring the glass down to the profile I want.  Also,
the dog/wife/baby tend to slow me down somewhat.  However, I currently do
stained-glass work only as a hobby, so the cost of labor is not a consideration
for me.

On another subject, are there any good stained-glass magazines that people
would recommend, and why would you recommend them?

Scott
sae@netins.net
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 10:25:43 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: time
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 10:17:11 -0500
Message-ID: <199612111820.KAA23710@kim.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --


The time method is good as far as you all went, but.......
Start a clock when you start any aspect of your project......include the
record keeping time as part of the overall project, as well as what it takes
to finish it completely, divide the OVERALL hours by the amount of pieces,
and that will give you a per piece average.
You also need to have your materials cost as well, to be able to determine
what a piece will cost, then RETAIL pricing, allowing for what you need as
your "living wage", and DO allow for a gallery or shop to "get" their
percentage.
I can cut, from strips, with a jig hundreds of pieces per hour, VERY
accurately, and DO include the set up time as well.I do a lot of lamps, both
panel and small piece Tiffany's....for instance, I have six,16" turtle back
lamps, with color phasing cut ahead and stored for the future. Once I set up
for the first one, why not cut a "few", and by running two or three clocks 
have all the data needed to price each lamp as an INDIVIDUAL project, at the
full time it takes to do one from scratch.
Any lamps which have grid rows have the strips cut (yes, I can take a 1/2"
strip the length of most of the hand-made glasses) and then jig cut them to
acccurate blocks.
If you feel that it is too commercial for an artist/craftsperson, go into
any bank or store or place that takes money and ask for a "discount" because
you  are an a/c...see what that gets you. I use the "artist/craftsperson"
very loosely...as an aside to illustrate the value of the above....go into a
"starbucks", mention my name and give them $2.00 and they will sell you
coffee, try getting the coffee without the $2.00.........
I am back and in fine fettle!!!!
enjoy..................H

--
New lamps added: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
                 http://www.best.com/~cbs/howard         

E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 10:40:50 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: more
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 96 10:31:46 -0500
Message-ID: <199612111834.KAA25849@kim.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

I keep VERY accurate records of all aspects of my work, and a (name and size
of lamp witheld intentionally) a 420 piece shade...44hrs                    
                                                   a 267                    
29hrs
                                                 a 822                    
92:30 hrs
The above hours include EVERY phase, except delivery, or crating....usually
an extra charge for that, or included in the final price. 
For me it is "business" not a hobby........
enjoy.................H

 
--
New lamps added: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
                 http://www.best.com/~cbs/howard         

E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 11:11:19 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Howard's time
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:11:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.61113.0>
References: <<199612111834.KAA25849@kim.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Elaine & Howard Rubin wrote:
> 
> -- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
> 
> I keep VERY accurate records of all aspects of my work, and a (name and size
> of lamp witheld intentionally) a 420 piece shade...44hrs
>                                                    a 267
> 29hrs
>                                                  a 822
> 92:30 hrs
>

OK I'll bite what does this mean? how much do YOU charge for a 720 piece
lamp with and without custom glass? April
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 11:26:38 1996
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From: ANLGlass@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: more tools: metal saws
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:21:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.9219.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Since we're in the mode of discussing tools ... any suggestions about a metal
saw (electric), for cutting brass/copper/zinc?  I've been using a little
handheld hobby
mitre box, and my poor fingers are starting to say nuff's nuff.  Besides my 
accuracy is not as good as it could be.

Marilyn Kaminski
A New Light
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 14:08:51 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: time
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 16:03:32 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612112203.QAA11386@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>Any lamps which have grid rows have the strips cut (yes, I can take a 1/2"
>strip the length of most of the hand-made glasses) and then jig cut them to
>acccurate blocks.
>If you feel that it is too commercial for an artist/craftsperson, go into
>any bank or store or place that takes money and ask for a "discount" because
>you  are an a/c...see what that gets you. 

On the contrary Howard, taking off long strips is fairly hard earned skill
and very representative of good craftsmanship. As a matter of fact it is one
my favorite show off routines :-)

I find it a little disheartening that glass cutting has become so mechanized
(yeah I know why) there is that really great touch thing you develope to get
the glass to do what you want it to that so many folks are missing out on.

Len
 

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 14:41:07 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: circle glass cutters
Date: 11 Dec 96 17:34:04 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.22344.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >Everything I've seen says you should score several places around tangent
   >to the circle score line cause glass wants to go in a straight line.

Linda

Glass has no "grain," so there's no tendency at *all for it to break in a
straight line.  Quite the contrary, in fact.  If everything you've seen says
that it'll break in a straight line ... or wants to ... then everything you've
read is wrong.

Actually, the hardest thing to do is to cut perfectly straight pieces.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 15:22:29 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:15:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.13154.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.161521.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Simpson wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 11 Dec 1996, David Cogen wrote:
> 
> >
> > Joseph Arthurs (or Sandy?) asks about per-piece time.
> >
> > I am an amateur, but striving to be faster (and better).
> >
> > I used to keep records of my times. About the best I could do was 8 pieces per
> > hour. Your 3 minutes per piece is 20 pieces per hour. I don't think I could
> > ever approach that.
> >
> > This time includes the follow steps:
> >
> > cutting the pattern.
> > selecting glass from my bins.
> > tracing the pattern onto the glass.
> > cutting the glass.
> > grinding.
> > foiling.
> > assembling.
> > fluxing/soldering.
> > cleanup.
> >
> >
> > -- David.
> 
> I agree, 20 pieces per hour is almost unbelievable, I achieve as
> low as 3 to 5 pieces per hour.
> 
> Having said that, I did a time trial recently to see how fast it
> could be done and found that cutting 64 squares, very lightly
> grinding, foiling and soldering them I got about 52 pieces per
> hour. Of course, this does not include time to lay out the tools
> "just so", taking the phone off the hook and twenty minutes of
> loosening up excercises and deep breating before starting. Nor
> does it take into account time to make it look good enough to
> throw into the bin.
> 
> On balance, I will be happy if I can get up to about 8 pieces per
> per hour without loosing quality.
> 
> Mike Simpson.
> 
> ----
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generally the amount varies, when doing straight cuts i can blow through
a project. but the amount lowers if there's alot of curves, or grind and
fits.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 15:32:38 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: more tools: metal saws
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 18:25:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.132531.0>
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ANLGlass@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Since we're in the mode of discussing tools ... any suggestions about a metal
> saw (electric), for cutting brass/copper/zinc?  I've been using a little
> handheld hobby
> mitre box, and my poor fingers are starting to say nuff's nuff.  Besides my
> accuracy is not as good as it could be.
> 
> Marilyn Kaminski
> A New Light
> ----
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i have an electric came saw the chop kind. it's the mini miter 2 i
forget who makes it, but it works really well. the version 2 has the
motor set back and the nlade is belt driven. this means that you can do
left and right hand cuts with out the motor getting in the way. the
first of the series had this problem.the only thing i had to modify on
this was: it came with a little sanding disk that stuck on like a
sticker. the main problem was, was that it kept unsticking it self (the
instructions even told about this, to push it back on before using it.)
so i took a little of spray glue and carefully applied it to where the
sanding disk goes and stuck it on. hopefully i'll be able to remove it
when i need to.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 15:34:05 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:29:03 -0600 (CST)
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At 09:35 PM 12/10/96 -0800, Joseph Arthurs wrote:
>Hi,
>
>My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty
of the work. 


Oceana is a neat name it is/was? also the name of a glass manufacturer are
they still around? They made some glass similiar to what we produced at
Peter Morris Glassworks years ago.

Len


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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 15:53:11 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 17:48:24 -0600 (CST)
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>> >Why would you want to do this? The only time it makes any sense is in
>> >cutting long thin pieces of Dalle De Ver which is 3/4 - 1" thick. For
>> >flat glass straight cuts are prohibitively slow on a saw.
>> >
>> >ms
>> Someone approached me about cutting some vintage glass into rectangle
>> shapes. Since I am not the greatest glass cutter I thought it might be less
>> risky to saw it.


>no it's definetly more risky using a saw, plus there's a chance of
>scratching it also.


I'd like to add my 0.02 to this thread... never guarantee a glass cut to
anyone I never have and never will. It's never a sure thing. Besides with
that particular disclaimer in place your more likely to be successful :-)

Len 

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:16:13 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:09:17 -0500
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len alcamo wrote:
> 
> At 09:35 PM 12/10/96 -0800, Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty
> of the work.
> 
> Oceana is a neat name it is/was? also the name of a glass manufacturer are
> they still around? They made some glass similiar to what we produced at
> Peter Morris Glassworks years ago.
> 
> Len
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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yeah i forgot about that one... a pretty glass, but not very popular,
around here anyway....

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:23 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:06:54 +0000
Message-ID: <199612120241.CAA12282@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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I find the idea of charging per piece, or charging per hour hour a 
bit unrealistic in the type of work I deal with (which is almost 
entirely using lead). To start with, you would need to know how many 
pieces will finally go into your design (which when you design from 
scratch, you can't). And then, what about the SIZE of each piece , or 
do you grade them (e.g  USD.2 for each piece measuring  1".sq, USD3 
for 1 x 2" and so on). Kind of complicated. Secondly, although you might
 have SOME idea how long it's going to take you to do, there is always that
 chance that one particular aspect is in reality going to take you much longer 
than you thought, second or third time round - or perhaps the 
opposite. And who pays for the time you spend chasing around, driving 
around to get that extra colour glass that you forgotten you had run 
out of...? Thirdly, it's far more "fiddly" to make one of Mike's 
fabulous 3-D cars, than a flat copper-foil project. Do you adda some 
kind of "factor" once an item is 3-D?  It's probably 
easier to price an object AFTER you have made it, e.g. for  staright 
retail. It's different if you have to quote someone a fixed quote, 
before you have even designed it, never mind having made it yet.
Here in the UK, we are accustomed to quote per sq.ft of the work. I 
make very few copper foil projects, other than pendulum clocks. What 
I do there,  is to measure up the sq.ft. of the glass. When I do go and 
buy clock movements etc., I normally buy in more than one. I also add 
the cost of the solder used (you can quite easily use up half a kilo!) , add the cost 
of the "bits", plus "acquisition costs" (i.e. my time and petrol to 
obtain them. In other words, making sure that you include ALL your 
OVERHEADS conceivably consumed for making ONE project (including 
light stationary, telephone etc).
Just a thought provoker...
Elisabeth 'n Toby
>Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty of the work.
>  You also don't have to get into details of where the fish come from, etc.  There have
> been a lot of other neat possible names suggested, but Oceana sounded right when you
> mentioned it.
> 
> Question for some of you.  I have been doing glass for about five years but very
> sporadically.  I remember taking my intro class and the instructor said that when she
> was quoting prices on a panel, or other object, she used a "by the minute" scale and
> figured that it took her three minutes per piece.  She estimates one minute in cutting
> and grinding, one minute for foiling and one minute for soldering.  I am no where close
> to this estimate, but like I said, I am really sporadic about working with glass and
> still consider myself a beginner.  She did beautiful work so it wasn't like she
> sacrificed in quality.  I was just curious whether some of you people who are really
> experienced find that that is a good guideline (now that I've seen Mike's work I won't
> consider myself experienced until I reach that level).
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> Sandy


welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
hour, sometimes...

---Mike Savad


----
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http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:24 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:06:54 +0000
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Dear Mike,
 You have seen my postings, you know what I see.  I don't think I 
can make much more impact and real sense than I have. I think Mike 
Peck is probably  -as I see it from HERE-  someone I would commend you 
to speak to, , as regards realistic pricing of your stuff in USA.
Don't sell yourself short.
Mike Peck's postings feel very real and sound. Talk to him - even if 
perhaps "off" the group.
 And don't just sit there and cogitate. Get on with it and DO it.
Elisabeth 'n Toby   :-)   (You THINK too much!!!)

> Mike Peck wrote
> 
> At 03:08 AM 12/11/96 +0000, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
> >picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
> >do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
> >the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
> >divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
> >hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
> >around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
> >are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
> >charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
> >hour, sometimes...
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> 
> Mike
> 
> You're labor rate is very low. From the things you have shared with us, you
> should be 4-5 times your current rate.  Do you know how you compare with
> your local artists?  Figure this ......... $13 per hour is barely $27,000
> per year, if you're busy all the time, then subtract out your COGS and other
> expenses and I know you can't be making a living on that in New Jersey.
> 
> Seriously, an artist of your caliber should draw much more.
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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well basically i don't have a business, i work on a more lighter
caliber.. however if you were charging for my lamp, givin the info i
have on my page, how much would you charge for the lamp for example. i'm
still working on pricing methods and it's still a little loose.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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----
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http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:24 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:06:54 +0000
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Hello there, Your list is very logical and real, but here are any few 
"cats I would like to throw in amongst the pigeons" to consider as additions to that 
list:
- making the design from scratch   - or  -  buying the book with the 
desired design;
- Stationary, paper etc to copy design out onto;  (Photocpying 
costs??)
- design/ copy time ;
 - charge for wear & tear of tools used to complete the project; (So 
your soldering iron clogs up and you have to spend an extra 5-10 
minutes cleaning it down and re-tinning it...)
- gas, time, wear & tear of car for use of glass  acquisition;
 (and materials related to project's completion)
- consultation costs (it costs you money to put questions into the 
Group, after all);
- Advertising costs (It costs you money to put about the word that you 
make stained glass for sale, in whatever form you did it).
- Telephone, light, soldering iron electricity, extra lamps/light 
soureces acquired to do the job
- Have you set a room/space aside in your home for stained glass 
work. That too costs money (and takes TIME to arrange) and  must be
 apportioned to your projects you  are making to sell to earn (extra) 
money.

Dream for perfection and budget for disasters!
Elisabeth 'n Toby


Joseph Arthurs (or Sandy?) asks about per-piece time.

I am an amateur, but striving to be faster (and better). 

I used to keep records of my times. About the best I could do was 8 pieces per
hour. Your 3 minutes per piece is 20 pieces per hour. I don't think I could
ever approach that.

This time includes the follow steps:

cutting the pattern.
selecting glass from my bins.
tracing the pattern onto the glass.
cutting the glass.
grinding.
foiling.
assembling.
fluxing/soldering.
cleanup.


-- David.
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----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:24 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: g;ass cutting
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
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Len Alcamo wrote:      :-)

I find it a little disheartening that glass cutting has become so mechanized
(yeah I know why) there is that really great touch thing you develope to get
the glass to do what you want it to that so many folks are missing out on.

Len
What a true word you spoke!!.....
So we are  expected to turn them out and churn them out. 
Whamm, bang, Thank you ma'm !!!
Your comments are a reminder to us all!!
 You are dead right and thank you for the reminder!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
 

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:25 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Howard - fine fettle
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 03:06:54 +0000
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Great to have you back, Howard!
Yep!
Bang on!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
!

-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --


The time method is good as far as you all went, but.......
Start a clock when you start any aspect of your project......include the
record keeping time as part of the overall project, as well as what it takes
to finish it completely, divide the OVERALL hours by the amount of pieces,
and that will give you a per piece average.
You also need to have your materials cost as well, to be able to determine
what a piece will cost, then RETAIL pricing, allowing for what you need as
your "living wage", and DO allow for a gallery or shop to "get" their
percentage.
I can cut, from strips, with a jig hundreds of pieces per hour, VERY
accurately, and DO include the set up time as well.I do a lot of lamps, both
panel and small piece Tiffany's....for instance, I have six,16" turtle back
lamps, with color phasing cut ahead and stored for the future. Once I set up
for the first one, why not cut a "few", and by running two or three clocks 
have all the data needed to price each lamp as an INDIVIDUAL project, at the
full time it takes to do one from scratch.
Any lamps which have grid rows have the strips cut (yes, I can take a 1/2"
strip the length of most of the hand-made glasses) and then jig cut them to
acccurate blocks.
If you feel that it is too commercial for an artist/craftsperson, go into
any bank or store or place that takes money and ask for a "discount" because
you  are an a/c...see what that gets you. I use the "artist/craftsperson"
very loosely...as an aside to illustrate the value of the above....go into a
"starbucks", mention my name and give them $2.00 and they will sell you
coffee, try getting the coffee without the $2.00.........
I am back and in fine fettle!!!!
enjoy..................H

--
New lamps added: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
                 http://www.best.com/~cbs/howard         

E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 18:46:58 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
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Mike Peck,
I am glad you said it. That were my feelings exactly, which is why my 
last couple of postings have high-lighted costs that simply must NOT 
be ignored.
The quality of Mike Savad's  work is first-class: Sure, it's not what 
I do, but that is irrelevant.  If I have understood the situation  correctly, he 
also runs a retail shop cum studio. To me, it would seem that  the 
income from that aspect more or less subsidizes the cost of his own 
creations and that he is not charging what he should for his 
creations.
We in the UK have a much lower standard of living than you Across the 
Pond. But the standard rate for a cleaning woman to come and use YOUR 
equipment, YOUR electricity and who will expect endless cups of 
coffees, snacks and even lunch that YOU provide at YOUR expence is 
about 8 USD an hour. [ to be exact UK Pound Sterling 4/ hour].
 (i.e she comes and "does". You provide ALL the materials, food 
,drinks and resourece ON TOP.....). I am quoting rates from a few 
years ago, when I was   having to use such services, as I was 
always travelling abroad in my THEN line of work.
No disrespect to Cleaning Ladies, but their work is hardly in the same 
league as the creations of Mike Savad! A garage mechanic in UK 
charges - just for his time alone - USD. 50/hour  (UK Sterl. 30/hr)
I don't want Mike Savad to gently decline into oblivion. He is too 
good for that.
Nor do I want him to bring The Profession into disrepute by charging 
 unrealistic and money-losing "peanuts". Because it makes the 
"punter" believe that our blood, sweat and tears is "CHEAP".
There is THAT one type of "punter, that I have learnt to recognize 
over the years, He thinks he has learnt to "bargain". So he offers 
you 50% less than the work is actually worth and flashes all his cash 
notes under your nose. Once or twice you fall for it (haven't we 
all!!). Yet, that is the very same bastard that  will never be 
satisfied, whatever you do. You complete the project on HIS terms. 
But if ever you have a "bugger of a nit-picker" he will be IT. He 
will pusrue you for months, if not years to pamper to his stupid, 
ill-informed ignorance and petulant approach and manner. By the time 
you have made him shut up for good, the whole project has lost you 
quite a lot of money.
>From the very start, you could smell it and  you wish you had had the 
courage to say NO THANK YOU. But you needed the money at the time...

I wasn't quite sure how to approach this angle to Mike Savad. I 
really did feel quite strongly about it. He is too good a guy to sell 
himself as short as that. So thank you for the opening...
13 dollars an hour. You must surely be joking!!!! For YOUR work!!, 
and what about including the raw materials costs???)
Elisabeth 'n Toby
I would be as bold to say that he should DOUBLE his

>
>welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
>picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
>do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
>the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
>divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
>hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
>around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
>are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
>charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
>hour, sometimes...
>
>---Mike Savad



Mike

You're labor rate is very low. From the things you have shared with us, you
should be 4-5 times your current rate.  Do you know how you compare with
your local artists?  Figure this ......... $13 per hour is barely $27,000
per year, if you're busy all the time, then subtract out your COGS and other
expenses and I know you can't be making a living on that in New Jersey.  

Seriously, an artist of your caliber should draw much more.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

----
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----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 19:09:57 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:02:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.17243.0>
References: <<199612120241.CAA12282@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> I find the idea of charging per piece, or charging per hour hour a
> bit unrealistic in the type of work I deal with (which is almost
> entirely using lead). To start with, you would need to know how many
> pieces will finally go into your design (which when you design from
> scratch, you can't). And then, what about the SIZE of each piece , or
> do you grade them (e.g  USD.2 for each piece measuring  1".sq, USD3
> for 1 x 2" and so on). Kind of complicated. Secondly, although you might
>  have SOME idea how long it's going to take you to do, there is always that
>  chance that one particular aspect is in reality going to take you much longer
> than you thought, second or third time round - or perhaps the
> opposite. And who pays for the time you spend chasing around, driving
> around to get that extra colour glass that you forgotten you had run
> out of...? Thirdly, it's far more "fiddly" to make one of Mike's
> fabulous 3-D cars, than a flat copper-foil project. Do you adda some
> kind of "factor" once an item is 3-D?  It's probably
> easier to price an object AFTER you have made it, e.g. for  staright
> retail. It's different if you have to quote someone a fixed quote,
> before you have even designed it, never mind having made it yet.
> Here in the UK, we are accustomed to quote per sq.ft of the work. I
> make very few copper foil projects, other than pendulum clocks. What
> I do there,  is to measure up the sq.ft. of the glass. When I do go and
> buy clock movements etc., I normally buy in more than one. I also add
> the cost of the solder used (you can quite easily use up half a kilo!) , add the cost
> of the "bits", plus "acquisition costs" (i.e. my time and petrol to
> obtain them. In other words, making sure that you include ALL your
> OVERHEADS conceivably consumed for making ONE project (including
> light stationary, telephone etc).
> Just a thought provoker...
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> >Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > My personal vote goes for Oceana.  Simple, yet seems to capture the beauty of the work.
> >  You also don't have to get into details of where the fish come from, etc.  There have
> > been a lot of other neat possible names suggested, but Oceana sounded right when you
> > mentioned it.
> >
> > Question for some of you.  I have been doing glass for about five years but very
> > sporadically.  I remember taking my intro class and the instructor said that when she
> > was quoting prices on a panel, or other object, she used a "by the minute" scale and
> > figured that it took her three minutes per piece.  She estimates one minute in cutting
> > and grinding, one minute for foiling and one minute for soldering.  I am no where close
> > to this estimate, but like I said, I am really sporadic about working with glass and
> > still consider myself a beginner.  She did beautiful work so it wasn't like she
> > sacrificed in quality.  I was just curious whether some of you people who are really
> > experienced find that that is a good guideline (now that I've seen Mike's work I won't
> > consider myself experienced until I reach that level).
> >
> > Just curious,
> >
> > Sandy
> 
> welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
> picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
> do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
> the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
> divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
> hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
> around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
> are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
> charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
> hour, sometimes...
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp, i'm still working out the bugs. the $2.00 per piece method i made
up because of the comaparisons of other projects from other people. the
3-d's like my cars (the more complex ones) i charge more like $5.00 per
piece or so...i don't know if it would sell at that price but i'm sure
there's someone out there willing to spend money on art. most of my
pieces (glass pieces) are between 1/2" to 4" usally. i'll charge more
per piece depending on color, size, and complex curves, along with
bandsaw cuts (not that it wears down the blade some, but for the complex
foiling task). i could never get the hang of the sq. ft. method it just
never worked for me. though i'm still open to ideas, i'm still trying to
figure out a good pricing method.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 19:10:40 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:00:41 -0600
Message-ID: <199612120309.WAA06725@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hope you are now no longer stuck.  Do you find that the prices @ the main
st. Hdvll., store are quite a bit higher than Waynesville?  I am ordering
Glass Eye in the next few weeks, can't wait to try it.  Will stop by your
store in March.  What is the name of your store?

Kathy

----------
> From: vgplugs@primeline.com
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Help
> Date: Sunday, December 08, 1996 8:47 PM
> 
> Someone please send me some mail I've got something stuck in the receive
> box and I don't know if the whole thing is jammed. April 
> -- 
> ****************
> April 
> vgplugs@primeline.com
> In the Smoky Mountains, Waynesville, NC, Zone 6
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 19:14:48 1996
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From: "Pat & Chris Kelly" <pkelly@sagelink.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 21:36:18 -0800
Message-ID: <199612120433.WAA02291@sage.sagelink.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

A ceramics class at the local Community College could probably use the
scrap glass to incorporate in their projects. Any Art instructor worth
his/her salt will gladly take the scraps and use them for anything that
strikes their students fancy.

My local Community College art department calls at least every few weeks
begging for scrap because of the miriad of colors.

Pat
----------
> From: James R. Laws <jlaws@indy.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Scrap Glass
> Date: Wednesday, November 20, 1996 4:18 AM
> 
> OK folks, the ultimate question.  Has anyone thought of any great things
> to do with scrap glass?  I still have the first piece of glass I cut ten
> years ago.  I store it by color in large clear plastic bins.  I use it
> for small pieces that I am working on but it would be nice to find some
> other uses.  I really have never liked the type of mosaics that use
> small squares of glass, so that is really not one of my options.  What
> are your ideas other than a large trash bin?  I love my glass and I have
> a hard time parting with it in that manner.
> 
> I do have one idea that I would like to share.  A great aunt, that has
> long since passed, used to save small pieces of glass of different
> colors which she would put in a resin and make beautiful cylindrical
> candle holders.  We still have one but I have no idea how to make one. 
> Does anyone know?
> -- 
>      "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
> he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
> and he will become what he could and should be."  
> Goethe
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 19:17:23 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 22:10:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.171031.0>
References: <<199612120241.CAA12258@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Mike Peck,
> I am glad you said it. That were my feelings exactly, which is why my
> last couple of postings have high-lighted costs that simply must NOT
> be ignored.
> The quality of Mike Savad's  work is first-class: Sure, it's not what
> I do, but that is irrelevant.  If I have understood the situation  correctly, he
> also runs a retail shop cum studio. To me, it would seem that  the
> income from that aspect more or less subsidizes the cost of his own
> creations and that he is not charging what he should for his
> creations.
> We in the UK have a much lower standard of living than you Across the
> Pond. But the standard rate for a cleaning woman to come and use YOUR
> equipment, YOUR electricity and who will expect endless cups of
> coffees, snacks and even lunch that YOU provide at YOUR expence is
> about 8 USD an hour. [ to be exact UK Pound Sterling 4/ hour].
>  (i.e she comes and "does". You provide ALL the materials, food
> ,drinks and resourece ON TOP.....). I am quoting rates from a few
> years ago, when I was   having to use such services, as I was
> always travelling abroad in my THEN line of work.
> No disrespect to Cleaning Ladies, but their work is hardly in the same
> league as the creations of Mike Savad! A garage mechanic in UK
> charges - just for his time alone - USD. 50/hour  (UK Sterl. 30/hr)
> I don't want Mike Savad to gently decline into oblivion. He is too
> good for that.
> Nor do I want him to bring The Profession into disrepute by charging
>  unrealistic and money-losing "peanuts". Because it makes the
> "punter" believe that our blood, sweat and tears is "CHEAP".
> There is THAT one type of "punter, that I have learnt to recognize
> over the years, He thinks he has learnt to "bargain". So he offers
> you 50% less than the work is actually worth and flashes all his cash
> notes under your nose. Once or twice you fall for it (haven't we
> all!!). Yet, that is the very same bastard that  will never be
> satisfied, whatever you do. You complete the project on HIS terms.
> But if ever you have a "bugger of a nit-picker" he will be IT. He
> will pusrue you for months, if not years to pamper to his stupid,
> ill-informed ignorance and petulant approach and manner. By the time
> you have made him shut up for good, the whole project has lost you
> quite a lot of money.
> >From the very start, you could smell it and  you wish you had had the
> courage to say NO THANK YOU. But you needed the money at the time...
> 
> I wasn't quite sure how to approach this angle to Mike Savad. I
> really did feel quite strongly about it. He is too good a guy to sell
> himself as short as that. So thank you for the opening...
> 13 dollars an hour. You must surely be joking!!!! For YOUR work!!,
> and what about including the raw materials costs???)
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> I would be as bold to say that he should DOUBLE his
> 
> >
> >welp, i could do about 9 pieces an hour, but that includes design and
> >picking the colors, along with the other stuff you mentioned. what i'll
> >do is: i'll count how many pieces i have first. then i'll write down all
> >the times from the very beginning to the end (polish and wax). then
> >divide the number of pieces into the time to find out how many pieces an
> >hour i can do. this is helpfull information for me because i'll charge
> >around $13.00 an hour for some work, and if i know how many pieces there
> >are i know how long it will take (or at least an estimate). or i'll
> >charge at about $2.00 per piece. which is about the same as $13.00 an
> >hour, sometimes...
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> 
> Mike
> 
> You're labor rate is very low. From the things you have shared with us, you
> should be 4-5 times your current rate.  Do you know how you compare with
> your local artists?  Figure this ......... $13 per hour is barely $27,000
> per year, if you're busy all the time, then subtract out your COGS and other
> expenses and I know you can't be making a living on that in New Jersey.
> 
> Seriously, an artist of your caliber should draw much more.
> 
> Mike Peck
> Summit Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp it's basically like this: i don't have a store, it's mainly a
hobby, but i do sell stuff. however i never sold anything large...it
would be nice. the $13 hour price i usally work into suncatchers and the
like, for the bigger 3-d it's hard to say.... how about this since i
don't sell professionally (i don't have to eat with this money) what
would you  or anyone else charge for the lamp. i'm still having trouble
figuring out a good price for it. you all already know the pieces and
the time, the bulk of the glass is kokomo and the water is yougegheny.
once i can get some real estimates (sure i'd love to get a million for
it), i can figure out a better way to price things out.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 20:10:48 1996
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From: "vgplugs@primeline.com" <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Help
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 23:11:36 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.151136.0>
References: <<199612120309.WAA06725@bones.brinet.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Kathy Sagy wrote:
> 
> Hope you are now no longer stuck.  Do you find that the prices @ the 
>main st. Hdvll., store are quite a bit higher than Waynesville? 

It's working ok now I had a very large piece of mail that would not 
come through for a couple of hours. I think Jeff is cheaper but I never 
really priced the difference. I bought mostly soldering and design
books since they have a large selection. They will send stuff UPS too.

  
 >I am ordering Glass Eye in the next few weeks, can't wait to try it.  
>Will stop by your store in March.  What is the name of your store?
> 

I really like it. I do have to get the update. Victorian Greenhouse 
Stained Glass and Specialty Nursery. It's under garden center. April
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 11 22:03:40 1996
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X-Path: americanbevel.com!ab
From: Richard davis Ashoff <ab@americanbevel.com>
To: stglmys@proaxis.com, tabonga@iwaynet.net,
Subject: Re: Books
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 1996 14:14:06 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec11.6146.0>
References: <<32AE66CA.63F5@usa.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: American Bevel, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

Hello my philanthropic friends:
 
Houghton Mifflin Publishing Corporation will donate one book to a
children's hospital for every 25 e-mails they receive.  Please e-mail
them at: 
       share@hmco.com

Please spare a moment to clog their email. . . and let your friends
know.  So far they have only received 3,400 messages.  Last year they
reached 23,000.

Happy Holiday Greetings... and Happy New Year...
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 02:16:26 1996
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From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: g;ass cutting
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:11:59 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.101159.0>
References: <<199612120241.CAA12267@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 12 Dec 1996, Toby wrote:

> 
> 
> Len Alcamo wrote:      :-)
> 
> I find it a little disheartening that glass cutting has become so mechanized
> (yeah I know why) there is that really great touch thing you develope to get
> the glass to do what you want it to that so many folks are missing out on.
> 
> Len
> What a true word you spoke!!.....
> So we are  expected to turn them out and churn them out. 
> Whamm, bang, Thank you ma'm !!!
> Your comments are a reminder to us all!!
>  You are dead right and thank you for the reminder!!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
>  
> 

I have no problems with mechanical equipment as such, but as I work
in stained glass much more from enjoyment than need, it always has 
to be on my terms:-

    It must not result in a loss of quality or control over the
  material, no matter how trivial.

    If it takes any appreciable time to learn it must also give
  an improvement in both quality and control.

    It must not cost so much that stained glass work becomes the 
  province of factories.

Things like glass grinders and even the modern glass cutter fit well
into this philosophy.

Any tool or machine that gives me more time to select the exact
piece of glass that I need will at least get my interest.

Mike Simpson.



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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 03:46:50 1996
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From: Jim Laws <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 06:44:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.1441.0>
References: <<199612120433.WAA02291@sage.sagelink.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Pat & Chris Kelly wrote:
> 
> A ceramics class at the local Community College could probably use the
> scrap glass to incorporate in their projects. Any Art instructor worth
> his/her salt will gladly take the scraps and use them for anything that
> strikes their students fancy.
> 
> My local Community College art department calls at least every few weeks
> begging for scrap because of the miriad of colors.
> 
> Pat
> ----------
>Thanks Pat.  Your idea of donating the glass was a great idea.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 04:30:44 1996
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From: llutz <llutz@tpgi.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:51:34 +1100
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.85134.0>
References: <<199612112203.QAA11386@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
> >Any lamps which have grid rows have the strips cut (yes, I can take a 1/2"
> >strip the length of most of the hand-made glasses) and then jig cut them to
> >acccurate blocks.
> >If you feel that it is too commercial for an artist/craftsperson, go into
> >any bank or store or place that takes money and ask for a "discount" because
> >you  are an a/c...see what that gets you.
> 
> On the contrary Howard, taking off long strips is fairly hard earned skill
> and very representative of good craftsmanship. As a matter of fact it is one
> my favorite show off routines :-)
> 
> I find it a little disheartening that glass cutting has become so mechanized
> (yeah I know why) there is that really great touch thing you develope to get
> the glass to do what you want it to that so many folks are missing out on.
> 
> Len
I get a good feeling about being able to cut & break out glass to the
shape I want and can't imagine cutting with a machine- except for very
difficult shapes which I had to just grind away( now I have a band saw
for those ) But it can't replace the satisfaction of applying just the
right pressure to see your break run from one end of the score to the
other end- so- I don't plan to give that up after the practice it took
to develop.
Larry from Oz


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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 04:49:03 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Pricing Mike's Lamp
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:20:54 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.142054.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.171031.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Mike,

are you afraid of asking a realistic price? I know i am. 
So what i do when i would like to sell something: ask fellow-craftsmen
what they would price for a similar piece. And stick to it, however
overpriced it may seem (or however i underestimate my own work).
Or you could consult with an antique/art broker or -shop. Add 30% or so
to their prices and off you go!

Consider this: somewhere in your region there might be a glass-worker
who´s income DOES depend on his glass-work and prices. You´re doing him
unjust competition by pricing too low. The only excuse is when you are
selling to relatives and friends. And even then you could check if they
would otherwise not have bought the piece.

BTW: as for your lamp, i haven´t the faintest idea of a price. It should
be sold as a work of art, not as yet another work of craft. Normal
pricing would sell it short.

Greetings from Holland,
Martin Streng.


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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 04:49:31 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipment
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:34:12 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.143412.0>
References: <<199612120241.CAA12267@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Len Alcamo wrote:      :-)
> 
> I find it a little disheartening that glass cutting has become so mechanized
> (yeah I know why) there is that really great touch thing you develope to get
> the glass to do what you want it to that so many folks are missing out on.
> 
> Len
> What a true word you spoke!!.....
> So we are  expected to turn them out and churn them out.
> Whamm, bang, Thank you ma'm !!!
> Your comments are a reminder to us all!!
>  You are dead right and thank you for the reminder!!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> 

OK, i know, i´m only in it for a hobby. But i´m only using:
2 types of glass-cutters (for straight and bend lines)
a grinder
soldering equipment
some pliers.
And drawing stuff. And coffee.
Considering buying a circle glass cutter, thank you all for the
discussions on the subject.

Martin Streng.

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 05:12:03 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!70544.3642
From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;@compuserve,.com
Subject: The Guild's memos r done
Date: 12 Dec 96 08:02:06 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.1326.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


The IGGA Online Memo page is finished.  Go to

   http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga

and click on the Online Memo button ... upper right side.

Tell me what you think about the new "look" of the site, too.  I'd appreciate
the feedback, even though more changes and improvements are planned.

Thanks.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 05:16:38 1996
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From: "Edward W. Reitmann" <oddjob@calhoun.lakes.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Equipment/Tools
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 07:10:30 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.11030.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

For those of you looking for something to put on your gift list, =
consider asking for a unique
glass breaking pliers manufactured by Lilberschnitt (German)  It has a =
revolving pressure bar on the top and a round pressure plate on the =
bottom. It enables you to break out inner curves and extremely narrow =
strips. It allows you to advance the break on a score millimeter by =
millimeter. A little pricy ( about $ 44.00 retail ) but a great time =
saver and reduces glass breakage.
Sue Reitmann
Artistry In Glass
Shorewood, MN
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 05:50:05 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Pricing and labor time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:43:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.34316.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.17243.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

just
> never worked for me. though i'm still open to ideas, i'm still trying to
> figure out a good pricing method.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass


I agree about the square foot pricing method.  It feels unnatural to me. 
 I do the per piece method, but I time every project I do, so when I go 
into a project, I know from past experience how long every thing takes, 
and can adjust my per piece price once in a while.

And it really might all depend on the method, copper foil usually has a 
lot more little intricate pieces than lead, and thay may be the reason 
why the sq ft measure doesn't work for me.

I don't ever give an estimate until I've got the full design figured 
out.  I do let people know up front, before I work on the design, that 
100 pieces will cost them between $200-$300.00.  That keeps some of the 
riffraff from using up my time.

The Indian Chief design (which I'm still working on btw) I estimated at 
between $600-800.00, and that gave me the idea that it would be about a 
40 hour project.  So far I have 19 hours in it, with only foiling and 
soldering to go, so I feel I'm doing well.

In a studio, how long would it take you all to do a project with 40 
hours in it?  I have customers to wait on in between, and paperwork to 
do, and running to pick up supplies, so I estimated it taking 6 weeks, 
but just wondered how fast everyone else gets things out and delivered.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 05:55:29 1996
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From: Terry Biegler <tbiegler@OnlineToday.Com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sawing glass with lap equipment
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 07:51:13 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612121351.HAA11073@online.OnlineToday.Com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 05:48 PM 12/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>>> >Why would you want to do this? The only time it makes any sense is in
>>> >cutting long thin pieces of Dalle De Ver which is 3/4 - 1" thick. For
>>> >flat glass straight cuts are prohibitively slow on a saw.
>>> >
>>> >ms
>>> Someone approached me about cutting some vintage glass into rectangle
>>> shapes. Since I am not the greatest glass cutter I thought it might be less
>>> risky to saw it.
>
>
>>no it's definetly more risky using a saw, plus there's a chance of
>>scratching it also.
>
>
>I'd like to add my 0.02 to this thread... never guarantee a glass cut to
>anyone I never have and never will. It's never a sure thing. Besides with
>that particular disclaimer in place your more likely to be successful :-)
>
>Len 
>
>----
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>
Thanks for your advice! I'm beginning to hope she doesn't call me back!

Terry

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 06:16:26 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: more tools: metal saws
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 09:09:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.4922.0>
References: <<1996Dec11.9219.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

ANLGlass@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Since we're in the mode of discussing tools ... any suggestions about a metal
> saw (electric), for cutting brass/copper/zinc?  I've been using a little
> handheld hobby
> mitre box, and my poor fingers are starting to say nuff's nuff.  Besides my
> accuracy is not as good as it could be.
> 
> Marilyn Kaminski


I have a Jarmac came saw with the straight and miter guides.  It worked 
extremely well last year when I did 20 zinc windows for a church.  The 
angles were 45 degrees with very little variation.  I set up a guide to 
cut each piece exactly the same length to cut down on measuring and 
marking time.  It was wonderful!

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 07:13:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Equipment/Tools
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:06:28 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.5628.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.11030.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Edward W. Reitmann wrote:
> 
> For those of you looking for something to put on your gift list, =
> consider asking for a unique
> glass breaking pliers manufactured by Lilberschnitt (German)  It has a =
> revolving pressure bar on the top and a round pressure plate on the =
> bottom. It enables you to break out inner curves and extremely narrow =
> strips. It allows you to advance the break on a score millimeter by =
> millimeter. A little pricy ( about $ 44.00 retail ) but a great time =
> saver and reduces glass breakage.
> Sue Reitmann
> Artistry In Glass
> Shorewood, MN
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


that sounds alot like the ringstar pliers from glastar, only a little
pricier.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 07:18:04 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:11:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.51124.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.34316.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> just
> > never worked for me. though i'm still open to ideas, i'm still trying to
> > figure out a good pricing method.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> > --
> > Mike's Stained Glass
> 
> I agree about the square foot pricing method.  It feels unnatural to me.
>  I do the per piece method, but I time every project I do, so when I go
> into a project, I know from past experience how long every thing takes,
> and can adjust my per piece price once in a while.
> 
> And it really might all depend on the method, copper foil usually has a
> lot more little intricate pieces than lead, and thay may be the reason
> why the sq ft measure doesn't work for me.
> 
> I don't ever give an estimate until I've got the full design figured
> out.  I do let people know up front, before I work on the design, that
> 100 pieces will cost them between $200-$300.00.  That keeps some of the
> riffraff from using up my time.
> 
> The Indian Chief design (which I'm still working on btw) I estimated at
> between $600-800.00, and that gave me the idea that it would be about a
> 40 hour project.  So far I have 19 hours in it, with only foiling and
> soldering to go, so I feel I'm doing well.
> 
> In a studio, how long would it take you all to do a project with 40
> hours in it?  I have customers to wait on in between, and paperwork to
> do, and running to pick up supplies, so I estimated it taking 6 weeks,
> but just wondered how fast everyone else gets things out and delivered.
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well if i were to build a panel in 40 hours i could get a panel done
with pieces between 360-460 or so, depending on cuts and all. i don't
know how much it effects it time wise but i foil as i go, so when i'm
all done cutting i can just go right into soldering.

BTW the lamp at it's current pricing i marked it as $5000.00 don't know
if that should be high enough or not...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 07:19:55 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: more tools: metal saws
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 10:13:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.51319.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.4922.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> ANLGlass@aol.com wrote:
> >
> > Since we're in the mode of discussing tools ... any suggestions about a metal
> > saw (electric), for cutting brass/copper/zinc?  I've been using a little
> > handheld hobby
> > mitre box, and my poor fingers are starting to say nuff's nuff.  Besides my
> > accuracy is not as good as it could be.
> >
> > Marilyn Kaminski
> 
> I have a Jarmac came saw with the straight and miter guides.  It worked
> extremely well last year when I did 20 zinc windows for a church.  The
> angles were 45 degrees with very little variation.  I set up a guide to
> cut each piece exactly the same length to cut down on measuring and
> marking time.  It was wonderful!
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah there was sometimes i would have liked having the table saw type,
because of wider stock or small sheets or whatever. but since i was
space limited i went with the miter type.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 08:29:24 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 08:22:18 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.02218.0>
References: <<199612112329.RAA14355@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Re:  Mike's lamp's name of Oceana.  Oceana is also the name of a little
California Central Coast town by the Ocean.  I keep thinking I will
produce a book of patterns called Oceana Lites.  Mike could name his lamp
that in the meantime.  PJ

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 10:40:03 1996
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From: ejcornell@ilnk.com (Cornell, Elaine)
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: How do I get back on the mail-list?
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 13:32:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.83232.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi everyone,

I was going out of town for two weeks so I unsubbed to the list and now I
cannot remember how to sub again! HELP!

Thanks!

-Lane
EJCornell@ilnk.com
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 11:41:53 1996
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From: llutz <llutz@tpgi.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: How do I get back on the mail-list?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 06:41:23 +1100
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.174123.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.83232.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Cornell, Elaine wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I was going out of town for two weeks so I unsubbed to the list and now I
> cannot remember how to sub again! HELP!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -Lane
> EJCornell@ilnk.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
send the subscribe message to glass-request@bungi.com - hope this helps
Larry of Oz

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 13:41:35 1996
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From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Bullseye
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 14:41:18 -0700
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19961212214118.006beb2c@mail.netzone.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks to all for your comments on Bullseye glass. Have finished one rose
and  the cutting was not as difficult as I had imagined. I found the inside
curves are a bit trickier but I will be able to manage.  My rose panel is
approx 9 inches high and 46 inches across. Will consist of a sweeping rose
pattern of 6 roses of varying sizes in the Bullseye cranberry and the swirly
pink/mauve/cranberry.  

Haven't tried heating the glass yet.. but will try it when it gets colder
here .. I'm in the Phoenix area and it's 76 degrees today..I'm lucky that I
won't have to heat the glass as much as others in colder areas of the
world..hahah  Couldn't help mentioning the weather, since it's now dipping
down into the 50's at night..brrrrrr..

off to bake sugar cookies..happy holidays.. Lorley in balmy Arizona

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 14:08:19 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 17:02:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.12226.0>
References: <<1996Dec13.85134.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> > Len
> I get a good feeling about being able to cut & break out glass to the
> shape I want and can't imagine cutting with a machine- except for very
> difficult shapes which I had to just grind away( now I have a band saw
> for those ) But it can't replace the satisfaction of applying just the
> right pressure to see your break run from one end of the score to the
> other end- so- I don't plan to give that up after the practice it took
> to develop.
> Larry from Oz
> 
> ----
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I agree with everything you have said Larry.  I use my ring saw for cuts
that I would normally grind.  I make the breaks not only for the pure
pleasure of doing it but also because I am too cheap to buy blades.
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 15:18:16 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 18:11:52 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.101152.0>
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Good evening everyone,

Just sat down and saw people's response to the cutting.  Very heartening 
to hear everyone's response.  I think I am in the 3-5 pieces per hour 
range and would get pretty discouraged by it (particularly when I was 
having bad cutting or soldering days) but now it doesn't sound bad at all 
when some of the experienced people are saying 10 pieces/hour is a good 
time. Thanks for answering that question.

I too, am a little rough with the cutting and tend to spend a lot of time 
grinding to get the pieces to fit just perfectly.  I am very quick to 
reach for my ring star pliers on a difficult cut and that seems to slow 
me down.  Not sure whether I should have bought them because I use them a 
lot and perhaps should haver really taken the time to practice some of 
the wierd and wonderful shapes than can be cut using relief lines.  I 
keep promising myself that I will dedicate an afternoon to practice 
cutting to see what I am actually capable of, but never seem to get 
around to it.

Thanks again, didn't know if that would be considered too personal or 
trivial a question.

Sandy (Joe Arthurs is my husband's name and we were only allowed to put 
one name on the account).
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 17:22:02 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Want to review software?
Date: 12 Dec 96 20:15:16 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.11516.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


A couple of weeks ago, we asked for a show of hands of those willing to review a
pattern book.  We were surprised by the enthusiastic response. So...

Would anyone here be interested in reviewing American Bevels' new design
software? We have a free review copy -- manual and diskettes -- that we could
send to you if you're willing, if you have worked with bevels, and are familiar
with computer drawing programs ... and if you are working on a PC-compatible
computer (the review copy won't run on Macs, sorry).

Personally, I loaded the software and was impressed with its desktop design
capabilities.  Then, heck, I designed a 34"x 80" door, dropping in American
Bevels' stock items from the pick list.  It was very easy, dramatic in its
presentation ... very slick.  (Oops!  I'm going to give away *my part of the
review!)

But I'm a desktop designer, mostly for print and some web design ... not a
day-to-day bevel user.  My comments are going to have to do with the overall
design capabilities of the software ... but we'd like to have someone who uses
bevels all the time in their designs to review it, too.  So I've uninstalled the
program and have the disks and manual ready to go.

Tell us why you should do the review and we'll overnight it all to you.

Your comments will be merged with those being made by yours truly and others who
are already working with the software.  Your review's due by email a week after
you receive the software.  Game?

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                Tonetta Lake Road  ***   Brewster NY 10509
                (914) 278-2152 [msg]   Fax: (914) 278-2481
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 17:33:54 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time - Mike's lamp
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:54:28 +0000
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Hi Mike Savad et al,

The input has been most  interesting. Marti Streng has some very good 
points.
How to price?

OK, you guys prefer to price per piece or per hour. A lot of trades 
and professions do. The first thing to detirmine your labour costs is 
by deciding in what category you come under,
e.g a domestic cleaner rates USD.X/hr (in UK approx. USD.8/hr)
a typist /secretary/electrician/garage mechanic/lawyer have all their 
different rates per hour. The more experienced in any one trade can 
charge more than one just setting up.
A high-school teacher gets less money than a university lecturer and 
so on.
Mike definitely belongs to the "senior" skill and should charge for 
that.

Taking the figure of USD.5,000 that Mike has priced his lamp at, I 
have divided it by the number of hours he has spent on it (If I 
remember correctly, 209 ?? Anyhow that's the figure I have used in my 
exercise). I arrive at very roughly USD. 24/hour. (A garage mechanic 
charges more than double this amount in UK for his labour cost alone)
Hopefuly, you will have spotted the deliberate omission:
 FIRST to deduct from this total figure
1. Cost of ALL raw material (including wastage)
2. cost of materials acquisition ( time and petrol/postage/telephone/
    stationary/ art & design materials etc.
3. cost of tools & machinery used (wear & tear). What would it
    have cost you if you had to HIRE all your gear?! No it's not over 
    the top. Many small companies lease their equipment until they
    built up sufficient profit to invest in owning their own. That  
    cost has to be covered from somewhere
4. Cost of heating, light and other electricity used for 209 or so 
hours
5. Health & Safety costs (goggles, gloves, ventilation gear etc).
6. Cost of space (Fine, so you have converted your spare room to
    be your stained glass studio. But you could have taken on a 
    lodger who would have paid you rent for that room...).
7. Books, magazines, subscriptions, membership fees....
8. Vehicle maintenance costs must have a portion charged to
    stained glass
9. Miscellaneous costs ( e.g. an e-mail about your lamp costs you
    time and telephone charges, furniture, shelves, special carpets, 
    aprons, First Aid stuff and so on)

Let's take a figure "out of the air" of items 1-9 costing you USD. 
2,000 out of the 5,000. It's most likely totally wrong. I am using it 
only for this argument. That leaves 
you USD.3,000 to pay for labour COST. That equates with about 
USD.14/hour.( In UK that "buys" you a shop-assistant for an 
hour.). Too low for YOUR work?? Definitely YES!!!

Having paid for labour COST, where is your PROFIT on the lamp????
And, by the way, does the time you quote also allow for the time you 
had to go and  collect the materials. OK, you might have collected 
materials for 2 or 3 other jobs, but then devide the time and charge 
the "portion" to each job concerned. That's ALSO labour COST (Same applies if 
you sat for hours over a mail order catalogue and ordered THAT 
way... You still spent a portion of your time on this project and the 
freight costs you had to pay also included a portion for this 
particular project.)

I take on board that you - as you say - don't depend on the money 
from your stained glass to eat, and very likely you would be satisfied 
just geting back what you spent on it.
But I thought it would be quite useful to take the idea through from 
beginning to end, if it then can help those folks who DO depend on 
their stained glass to eat.
They will need to carry out a fairly ruthless  cost analysis, 
covering every minute detail and 
consider (and price!) every single aspect that involves their stained 
glass activity.
Hope this is of help!

Yea, I am a good one to talk... one of my students informed me only 
the other day about an article she had been reading in a very recent 
BBC publication about "How To Commission a Stained Glass Artist".It 
also included guide-lines of prices you would be expected to pay as a 
customer.  I need to DOUBLE my own prices!!
Just shows you!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 17:33:55 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time- Joyce Moran
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:54:28 +0000
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Joyce wrote:

I don't ever give an estimate until I've got the full design figured 
out.  I do let people know up front, before I work on the design, that 
100 pieces will cost them between $200-$300.00.  That keeps some of the 
riffraff from using up my time.

unquote.
My experience is that a customer would want to know exactly the price 
they will pay at the end, before they agree anything.  All my 
quotations are in writing.
My own design process is terribly arduous and painful. Designing 
takes me longer than actually making the darned thing. Which is why I 
need to know that the customer is COMMITTED, before I even start. So 
I too need to produce some sort of commitment on my side.Some stained 
glass artists can produce half a dozen drawings to a customer and say 
"which one do you like?" I can't do that. From me they will only ever 
get ONE drawing. I will then have spent many, many  hours with the 
customer to try and "fish out" who they are, what they like and 
anything I can use to reflect or appeal to their personality.  I can 
change a drawing, but I just do not have the ability for that sort of 
"free-flow" of producing lots of different drawings. (Basically - as 
I have admitted before - I can design, but I can't draw.) The drawing 
process to me is like pregnancy and giving birth. Once or twice, 
arriving at a final design has almost taken just as long...). Yet, I 
have been very fortunate in that  I have ever only once had to 
re-work a drawing for a customer.
Which is probably why the pricing of "per sq/ft" is a UK tradition 
that just happens to suit me fine and the way I work.

It equally makes sense to me that other methods suit other people 
better. I may have taken the "short-hand" descriptions too literally.
A "per piece price" had  my imagination running, when I thought of the 
combinations possible (e.g. 1 piece of 1 x 2" clear textured 
cathedral piece having the same price tag on it as a 4 x 6" piece 
gold-oxide ruby red [ of WHATEVER make])....

No criticism was intended, hopefully none was understood....
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 17:33:56 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipment
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:54:29 +0000
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Martin wrote: 

OK, i know, i=A6m only in it for a hobby. But i=A6m only using:
2 types of glass-cutters (for straight and bend lines)
a grinder
soldering equipment
some pliers.
And drawing stuff. And coffee.
Considering buying a circle glass cutter, thank you all for the
discussions on the subject.
unquote.

Martin, don't get me wrong. I may be getting closer and closer to my 
Old Age Pension, but  I am not exactly living (or working) in 
the Middle Ages (I just SOUND like it some times!!) I have very much 
the same equipment that you have listed; electrical grinders, 
electrical soldering irons ( IT'S TRUE!! I don't put my soldering iron in 
amongst the glowing coal fire to heat it up. But I do have one like 
it, that I inherited from my father...). I EVEN use a COMPUTER!! The 
INTERNET !!! And Horror of Horrors, I even possess my own 
personalized copy of Dragonfly's GlassEye Computer Aided Design 
Programme......
But there is something rather special about my own hand guiding a 
manual glass-cutter (even if it IS the latest in oil-filled cutters) 
across the glass, hearing the zissschhh, as I do it, watching the 
score-line and using my own hands, my own knowledge and intimacy of the 
glass and a few other manual tools to tease the glass to the way I 
want it. There is a special kind of jubilation when you succeed. That 
to me is the very part of "job satisfaction". If I was doing 
production-work, or my hands or my "feel" could no longer be the 
FIRST tools of my job, then I too would probably have another look at 
"mechanized" solutions. I believe it was April who posted her 
contribution into the Group in very similar vein, in reply to Len's 
first comment.
There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a 
hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...??? And where and how does 
"mechanization" fit into something which is supposed to be 
"hand-made"?? A good example of this problem, you will find in the 
furniture industry, e.g. mass-produced, manufactured reproductions 
versus hand-made, hand-crafted copies(e.g. where no modern nails or 
screws are used, but the original methods are faithfully re-produced, 
and so on).

I know myself that there must be a demarcation line, but I don't know 
how and where to draw it, how to judge it. All I know is that I 
constantly question new "innovations" in the light of whether it's 
"true" to what it is that my art/craft is all about.

I have probably only "muddied the waters" yet further. Hopefully 
you'll get the drift..
Elsabeth 'n Toby 


P.S. Martin, you ONLY use COFFEE!!!!
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 17:33:57 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing Mike's Lamp - Martin Streng
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 01:54:29 +0000
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Martin wrote:,

are you afraid of asking a realistic price? I know i am. 
So what i do when i would like to sell something: ask fellow-craftsmen
what they would price for a similar piece. And stick to it, however
overpriced it may seem (or however i underestimate my own work).
Or you could consult with an antique/art broker or -shop. Add 30% or so
to their prices and off you go!

Consider this: somewhere in your region there might be a glass-worker
who=A6s income DOES depend on his glass-work and prices. You=A6re doing hi=
m
unjust competition by pricing too low. The only excuse is when you are
selling to relatives and friends. And even then you could check if they
would otherwise not have bought the piece.

BTW: as for your lamp, i haven=A6t the faintest idea of a price. It should
be sold as a work of art, not as yet another work of craft. Normal
pricing would sell it short.

Greetings from Holland,
Martin Streng.

Well, What more can one add to that!
Very succinctly put!
Well spoken Martin.
Yes, it is so easy to under-estimate one's own worth and VALUE.
It's so easy to be terribly "humble" and welcome every little crumb 
thrown at you.
That's one side of it.
There is another side which is almost as dangerous. That is of the 
arrogant "fresher" who has "done" a sun-catcher or two and allows the 
ego to become terribly "brash" & inflated, looking at an opportunity of ea=
rning 
"mega-bucks" quickly. Luckily, I have not yet spotted a single one in 
our Group. But I have seen them operate "over here"..... But I won't 
ride this hobby-horse here.
Although Mike (Savad) proclaims himself a "hobbyist", his work is 
very accomplished and first rate. He is also very knowledgable. 
Therefore he SHALL not sell himself short.
(If anything, I am quite surprised to learn that he is NOT earning 
his bread from stained glass....)
So there!!
Elisabeth has spoken...

Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 18:04:43 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 18:00:04 -0800
Message-ID: <199612130200.SAA18788@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>> > Len
>> I get a good feeling about being able to cut & break out glass to 
the
>> shape I want and can't imagine cutting with a machine- except for 
very
>> difficult shapes which I had to just grind away( now I have a band 
saw
>> for those ) But it can't replace the satisfaction of applying just 
the
>> right pressure to see your break run from one end of the score to 
the
>> other end- so- I don't plan to give that up after the practice it 
took
>> to develop.
>> Larry from Oz
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>I agree with everything you have said Larry.  I use my ring saw for 
cuts
>that I would normally grind.  I make the breaks not only for the pure
>pleasure of doing it but also because I am too cheap to buy blades.
>----
>

I've been working profesionaly in art glass for 25 years and know of no 
one who uses any of these tools except for the most outlandish cuts. We 
even cut out holes in the middle of the glass with only a $1 CRL 
jobsite cutter. The reason for this lack of mechaninzation is time. It 
is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside 
cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to 
a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 
traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You 
can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
definetly a skill that pays to develop. The savings that 15-30 second 
per piece represents when multiplied by thousands or tens of thousands 
of pieces is quite considerably. Even grosing can be a much quicker 
operation when its only being used to clean off sharp edges and not as 
a cutting method. 

ms
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 18:13:31 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's Lamp and other stuff
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:06:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.16647.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.101152.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Good evening everyone,
> 
> Just sat down and saw people's response to the cutting.  Very heartening
> to hear everyone's response.  I think I am in the 3-5 pieces per hour
> range and would get pretty discouraged by it (particularly when I was
> having bad cutting or soldering days) but now it doesn't sound bad at all
> when some of the experienced people are saying 10 pieces/hour is a good
> time. Thanks for answering that question.
> 
> I too, am a little rough with the cutting and tend to spend a lot of time
> grinding to get the pieces to fit just perfectly.  I am very quick to
> reach for my ring star pliers on a difficult cut and that seems to slow
> me down.  Not sure whether I should have bought them because I use them a
> lot and perhaps should haver really taken the time to practice some of
> the wierd and wonderful shapes than can be cut using relief lines.  I
> keep promising myself that I will dedicate an afternoon to practice
> cutting to see what I am actually capable of, but never seem to get
> around to it.
> 
> Thanks again, didn't know if that would be considered too personal or
> trivial a question.
> 
> Sandy (Joe Arthurs is my husband's name and we were only allowed to put
> one name on the account).


welp i figure any tool that can be used to save time and or glass should
be used. at first i always thought that using a glass cutter was the
only thing you could use and anything else would be cheating. but then i
figured anything that can be used to make my life easier is A-okay. i
finally broke down and bought a ringstar pliers, and i'm glad i have it.
with it i can easily break deep cuts or next to impossible cuts. when i
was testing it out i took a 12x12" mirror tile and scored within a 1/2"
to the side and scored it in one continous line on 3 sides (looked lie a
wide U). when i went to break it, i could with these pliers. the break
would have been impossible with out it.

---Mike Savad


-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 18:18:59 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review software?
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:12:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.16128.0>
References: <<1996Dec13.11516.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, we asked for a show of hands of those willing to review a
> pattern book.  We were surprised by the enthusiastic response. So...
> 
> Would anyone here be interested in reviewing American Bevels' new design
> software? We have a free review copy -- manual and diskettes -- that we could
> send to you if you're willing, if you have worked with bevels, and are familiar
> with computer drawing programs ... and if you are working on a PC-compatible
> computer (the review copy won't run on Macs, sorry).
> 
> Personally, I loaded the software and was impressed with its desktop design
> capabilities.  Then, heck, I designed a 34"x 80" door, dropping in American
> Bevels' stock items from the pick list.  It was very easy, dramatic in its
> presentation ... very slick.  (Oops!  I'm going to give away *my part of the
> review!)
> 
> But I'm a desktop designer, mostly for print and some web design ... not a
> day-to-day bevel user.  My comments are going to have to do with the overall
> design capabilities of the software ... but we'd like to have someone who uses
> bevels all the time in their designs to review it, too.  So I've uninstalled the
> program and have the disks and manual ready to go.
> 
> Tell us why you should do the review and we'll overnight it all to you.
> 
> Your comments will be merged with those being made by yours truly and others who
> are already working with the software.  Your review's due by email a week after
> you receive the software.  Game?
> 
> Albert
>                 __________________________________________
>                 Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                 International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                 Tonetta Lake Road  ***   Brewster NY 10509
>                 (914) 278-2152 [msg]   Fax: (914) 278-2481
>                 __________________________________________
>                      http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i'm game.. i don't work alot with bevels, but i do alot of drawing. i
also know good software when i see it, and i have a CAD background.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 18:29:02 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time- Joyce Moran
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:22:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.16226.0>
References: <<199612130129.BAA20543@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Joyce wrote:
> 
> I don't ever give an estimate until I've got the full design figured
> out.  I do let people know up front, before I work on the design, that
> 100 pieces will cost them between $200-$300.00.  That keeps some of the
> riffraff from using up my time.
> 
> unquote.
> My experience is that a customer would want to know exactly the price
> they will pay at the end, before they agree anything.  All my
> quotations are in writing.
> My own design process is terribly arduous and painful. Designing
> takes me longer than actually making the darned thing. Which is why I
> need to know that the customer is COMMITTED, before I even start. So
> I too need to produce some sort of commitment on my side.Some stained
> glass artists can produce half a dozen drawings to a customer and say
> "which one do you like?" I can't do that. From me they will only ever
> get ONE drawing. I will then have spent many, many  hours with the
> customer to try and "fish out" who they are, what they like and
> anything I can use to reflect or appeal to their personality.  I can
> change a drawing, but I just do not have the ability for that sort of
> "free-flow" of producing lots of different drawings. (Basically - as
> I have admitted before - I can design, but I can't draw.) The drawing
> process to me is like pregnancy and giving birth. Once or twice,
> arriving at a final design has almost taken just as long...). Yet, I
> have been very fortunate in that  I have ever only once had to
> re-work a drawing for a customer.
> Which is probably why the pricing of "per sq/ft" is a UK tradition
> that just happens to suit me fine and the way I work.
> 
> It equally makes sense to me that other methods suit other people
> better. I may have taken the "short-hand" descriptions too literally.
> A "per piece price" had  my imagination running, when I thought of the
> combinations possible (e.g. 1 piece of 1 x 2" clear textured
> cathedral piece having the same price tag on it as a 4 x 6" piece
> gold-oxide ruby red [ of WHATEVER make])....
> 
> No criticism was intended, hopefully none was understood....
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah the per piece method still has it's kinks and bugs. generally after
i get my quote and then make it a little higher and round it off. but
it's still tricky....


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 18:46:54 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 21:40:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.16406.0>
References: <<199612130200.SAA18788@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >> > Len
> >> I get a good feeling about being able to cut & break out glass to
> the
> >> shape I want and can't imagine cutting with a machine- except for
> very
> >> difficult shapes which I had to just grind away( now I have a band
> saw
> >> for those ) But it can't replace the satisfaction of applying just
> the
> >> right pressure to see your break run from one end of the score to
> the
> >> other end- so- I don't plan to give that up after the practice it
> took
> >> to develop.
> >> Larry from Oz
> >>
> >> ----
> >> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> >I agree with everything you have said Larry.  I use my ring saw for
> cuts
> >that I would normally grind.  I make the breaks not only for the pure
> >pleasure of doing it but also because I am too cheap to buy blades.
> >----
> >
> 
> I've been working profesionaly in art glass for 25 years and know of no
> one who uses any of these tools except for the most outlandish cuts. We
> even cut out holes in the middle of the glass with only a $1 CRL
> jobsite cutter. The reason for this lack of mechaninzation is time. It
> is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside
> cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to
> a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a
> traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You
> can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass
> cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is
> definetly a skill that pays to develop. The savings that 15-30 second
> per piece represents when multiplied by thousands or tens of thousands
> of pieces is quite considerably. Even grosing can be a much quicker
> operation when its only being used to clean off sharp edges and not as
> a cutting method.


welp i'm for the trace method, so i can easily cut the piece turning it
whatever. besides you still have to cut the pattern out in the first
place and if it's a second panel with the first design you'll have find
all the cut out pieces. with me, i can cut out alot of shapes deep
whatever. the only time i'll use something fancier (ringstar, etc) is
when the glass is a bit much or the cut a little too deep and i want to
control the cut better. or if it's a deep ripple, like kokomo ripple,
i'll use a bandsaw for certain cuts, because sometimes the plier just
does'nt line up quite well enough. i do groze, but only if it'll save
some wear and tear on my grinder. sometimes i get carried away and break
the piece in two (like in the japanese garden the larger pond). when
making the tiny yellow border pieces on the base of my lamp, i used a
good pair of tile nippers to break my lines, it went along pretty
quickly that way. 

the only tools that i think will stay pretty much the same are glass
cutters the hand held type (not the sewing machine type). and foiling or
leading by hand. there are tools to foil with but nothing is more
professional than a hand (not to mention tighter foil lines, as in it
won't come off if you blow on it). and of course using lead will pretty
much stay the same as it did hundreds of years agom they'll improve the
lead and materials, but basically the method is unchanged, they can
never make a machine (affordably) to do the caming.

---Mike Savad



-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 19:05:41 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: TO TIM KROUSE
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 19:01:41 -0500
Message-ID: <199612130300.TAA09221@kim.teleport.com>
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --


Hi Tim I put togethet a major post for you but it keeps on coming back.
Please send your address and I will check it. second option is to post it to
the glass list and you and EVERYONE else cna see it....Let me know...H

--
New lamps added: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
                 http://www.best.com/~cbs/howard         

E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 20:01:14 1996
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From: Bart Huffman <bartman@BACKROADS.NET>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review software?
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:54:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.145456.0>
References: <<1996Dec13.11516.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
> A couple of weeks ago, we asked for a show of hands of those willing to review a
> pattern book.  We were surprised by the enthusiastic response. So...
> 
> Would anyone here be interested in reviewing American Bevels' new design
> software? We have a free review copy -- manual and diskettes -- that we could
> send to you if you're willing, if you have worked with bevels, and are familiar
> with computer drawing programs ... and if you are working on a PC-compatible
> computer (the review copy won't run on Macs, sorry).
> 
> Personally, I loaded the software and was impressed with its desktop design
> capabilities.  Then, heck, I designed a 34"x 80" door, dropping in American
> Bevels' stock items from the pick list.  It was very easy, dramatic in its
> presentation ... very slick.  (Oops!  I'm going to give away *my part of the
> review!)
> 
> But I'm a desktop designer, mostly for print and some web design ... not a
> day-to-day bevel user.  My comments are going to have to do with the overall
> design capabilities of the software ... but we'd like to have someone who uses
> bevels all the time in their designs to review it, too.  So I've uninstalled the
> program and have the disks and manual ready to go.
> 
> Tell us why you should do the review and we'll overnight it all to you.
> 
> Your comments will be merged with those being made by yours truly and others who
> are already working with the software.  Your review's due by email a week after
> you receive the software.  Game?
> 
> Albert
>                 __________________________________________
>                 Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                 International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                 Tonetta Lake Road  ***   Brewster NY 10509
>                 (914) 278-2152 [msg]   Fax: (914) 278-2481
>                 __________________________________________
>                      http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
I would be willing to review the software from the point of being new to
the stained glass scene. I don't have that much experiance, but want to
learn all I can about the art.			

Bart Huffman
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From owner-glass Thu Dec 12 20:07:12 1996
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From: Scott Evans <sae@netins.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Photos
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 1996 22:03:14 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612130403.WAA01209@southpaw>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I've just finished a project (a pair of angels with a sun background), and
am trying to figure out a good way of documenting the finished panel with
photographs.  What tips or techniques do others use for photographing 
their projects, showing both the way the glass normally looks and also 
with light shining through it?

Thanks!
Scott
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 00:18:34 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Equipment/Tools/Lilberschnitt
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:01:18 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.10118.0>
References: <<1996Dec12.5628.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
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Edward W. Reitmann wrote:
> >
> > For those of you looking for something to put on your gift list, =
> > consider asking for a unique
> > glass breaking pliers manufactured by Lilberschnitt (German)  It has 

It's Silberschnitt. The "F" is the old German spelling for a "S"

Martin Streng, The Netherlands (by some Germans considered as a province
of Germany)

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 01:20:19 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: More software 2 review?
Date: 13 Dec 96 04:13:16 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.91316.0>
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   >We saw your recent glass@bungi posting about reviewing the product from
   >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
   >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to whoever
   >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the products
   >side-by-side.

   >-Michael Wilk
   > wilk@dfly.com

Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the review of
the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what Michael
proposes: review both?

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 04:14:47 1996
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From: Bart Huffman <bartman@BACKROADS.NET>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 07:08:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec12.23847.0>
References: <<1996Dec13.91316.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >We saw your recent glass@bungi posting about reviewing the product from
>    >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
>    >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to whoever
>    >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the products
>    >side-by-side.
> 
>    >-Michael Wilk
>    > wilk@dfly.com
> 
> Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the review of
> the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what Michael
> proposes: review both?
> 
> Albert
>                 __________________________________________
>                 Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                 International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                 __________________________________________
>                      http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
 

Albert,
	Indeed, I am VERY interested in a head to head comparison. Not only
would this serve as a rewiew for your report, but also let me see which
one I should invest my money in.   In short, my offer still stands.
Bart Huffman
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 06:15:24 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: More software 2 revi
Date: 13 Dec 96 09:09:22 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.14922.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >Indeed, I am VERY interested in a head to head comparison. Not only
   >would this serve as a rewiew for your report, but also let me see which
   >one I should invest my money in.   In short, my offer still stands.

Bart

Of course, you wouldn't *have to invest your money, because we'd be sending you
two free software programs.  You'd be set.

But what's your experience with computer drawing programs and with bevels?

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 06:48:01 1996
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review software?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:42:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.4429.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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I'd be very interested in reviewing the software.  Why me?  We've been
operating a custom design studio for 20 years, as well as a retail chain and
wholesale distribution center.  We use bevels regularly in our studio
designs, as well as having a good sense of what people will use and buy.  I
am extremely interested in the use of computers to aid in stained glass
information distribution and design, and I'm currently working on ideas for
my own design program (in my free time HAH!).  Anyway, I'd love to give the
program a try, as I have yet to find a computer program that I felt had
enough ease-of-use and flexibility in design that I would consider using it
in our studio and/or selling it to our customers!

Jenna
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 06:50:05 1996
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 09:44:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.44447.0>
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I think reviewing both would be wonderful!  Our staff is pretty interested in
testing these programs out right now!

Jenna
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 08:23:28 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:16:59 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612131616.KAA09223@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>I've been working profesionaly in art glass for 25 years and know of no 
>one who uses any of these tools except for the most outlandish cuts. We 
>even cut out holes in the middle of the glass with only a $1 CRL 
>jobsite cutter. The reason for this lack of mechaninzation is time. It 
>is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside 
>cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to 
>a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 
>traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You 
>can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
>cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
>definetly a skill that pays to develop. The savings that 15-30 second 
>per piece represents when multiplied by thousands or tens of thousands 
>of pieces is quite considerably. Even grosing can be a much quicker 
>operation when its only being used to clean off sharp edges and not as 
>a cutting method. 
ms

Micheal

I'm glad you brought that up. I had no idea that much time could be spent
cutting a piece of glass. I had been thinking about why there are so many
folks that cut to a traced outline ( we used to call that the English method
Elisabeth) could it be because a trip to the grinder is expected with every
piece? 

In defense of many of our fellow (is that gender neutural?) listees I am
sure that many would have not taken up SG were it not for the tools and
equipement that are currently available. Though I think, for obvious
reasons, they are not encouraged by their retailers to approach the craft in
any other way. 

 My recommendation for learning glass cutting is to get ahold of a bunch of
old window glass and make little pieces out of big pieces, over and over and
over again.

I know that those of us who come out of a commercial studio background have
spent thousands of hours cutting tens of thousands of pieces of glass with
the couple of bucks glass cutter and cheapo pliers and have leaded up many
panels and replaced uncountable pieces of broken glass in church windows a
lot of the time working vertically, dangling off a a rubbery 40 ft ladder,
know what it takes to get good and even then you can be humbled into
realizing that the masterey is never ending because you run into someone
thats better at it then you. I guess its like sports, no matter how hard you
try in the end it comes down to genetics  :-) 


The standard for a difficult cut seems to be the deep tight radius inside
curve in my case Michael the cut that has always frustrated me most is the
long tapering point coming off a sweeping inside curve in a brittle obnoxous
opal

Have a good weekend

Len

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 08:32:42 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:22:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.6228.0>
References: <<1996Dec13.91316.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >We saw your recent glass@bungi posting about reviewing the product from
>    >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
>    >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to whoever
>    >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the products
>    >side-by-side.
> 
>    >-Michael Wilk
>    > wilk@dfly.com
> 
> Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the review of
> the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what Michael
> proposes: review both?


Does the review software include the ability to print? I have downloaded 
trial copies of both of them, but when trying them out, I felt I didn't 
get the full impact of the software, because I couldn't print it out.  
The reason I was trying them in the first place was to replace my time 
comsuming chore of saving my design in one format, and then bringing it 
up again in another program to print.
Whoever reviews, I would be really interested to know how easily it 
accomplishes full size designs, and if you have to go through 
percentages to get it to the size you want, or if it accomplishes that 
more easily.  I also don't like having to draw my design full size, and 
then store it on my computer, because it takes up too much space.  Can 
these programs accomplish that?
My other objective in a stained glass program is the ability to draw a 
straight line easily.  I haven't found that to be true with the American 
Bevel software.  I draw and then have to manipulate it to be 
straight.  Takes a lot of my precious time.  Maybe I need more practice, 
but I've done computer design for over 6 years, I wouldn't think so.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 09:00:48 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipment
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:55:10 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612131655.KAA10317@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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>There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a 
>hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...??? And where and how does 
>"mechanization" fit into something which is supposed to be 
>"hand-made"?? A good example of this problem, you will find in the 
>furniture industry, e.g. mass-produced, manufactured reproductions 
>versus hand-made, hand-crafted copies(e.g. where no modern nails or 
>screws are used, but the original methods are faithfully re-produced, 
>and so on).
>
>I know myself that there must be a demarcation line, but I don't know 
>how and where to draw it, how to judge it. All I know is that I 
>constantly question new "innovations" in the light of whether it's 
>"true" to what it is that my art/craft is all about.
>
>I have probably only "muddied the waters" yet further. Hopefully 
>you'll get the drift..
>Elsabeth 'n Toby 

Hi Elisabeth,

Your comments are definitly food for thought. I guess thats one of those
gray areas, to coin a phrase.  I'm not sure either but I have decided from
now on to include references to authentic leaded windows made with hand cut
glass in my presentations I don't know how potential clients will respond to
that (I'll keep you posted) but in any case it's a good excuse for a modest
price increase  :-)

Len

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 09:03:42 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 11:58:10 -0500
Message-ID: <9612131658.AA02127@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
>> 
>>    >We saw your recent glass@bungi posting about reviewing the product from
>>    >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
>>    >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to
whoever
>>    >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the products
>>    >side-by-side.
>> 
>>    >-Michael Wilk
>>    > wilk@dfly.com
>> 
>> Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the
review of
>> the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what Michael
>> proposes: review both.
>
Albert,

You can count us in to do a compasion or review or either.

my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 09:12:26 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 12:06:42 -0500
Message-ID: <9612131706.AA02630@water.waterw.com>
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ms wrote,>
>>I've been working profesionaly in art glass for 25 years and know of no 
>>one who uses any of these tools except for the most outlandish cuts. We 
>>even cut out holes in the middle of the glass with only a $1 CRL 
>>jobsite cutter. The reason for this lack of mechaninzation is time. It 
>>is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside 
>>cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to 
>>a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 
>>traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You 
>>can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
>>cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
>>definetly a skill that pays to develop. The savings that 15-30 second 
>>per piece represents when multiplied by thousands or tens of thousands 
>>of pieces is quite considerably. Even grosing can be a much quicker 
>>operation when its only being used to clean off sharp edges and not as 
>>a cutting method. 
>ms
>
Boy I am glad you wrote this!!! We have found over the years that most of
the new tools that are out there just aren't as good as the old methods.  We
have them all
but to tell you the truth I don't think the band saw has been out of the box.
I won't say which one it was but a company sent it to us, the students tried it
and Paul won't touch it. He can do a major of those cuts by hand and faster.

I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns fo all
your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. And
don't teach out students to do it that way either.  But then again we
remember the days when there wasn't a even a foiling machine or a compny
called Glastar!!

my best,
pj  

BTW Happy Holidays to all of you out there......and to you familys to.  May
your days be filled with peace and happiness.




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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 09:41:17 1996
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From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 10:34:36 -0700
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Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

You wrote:
> I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns fo all
> your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
> never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. And
> don't teach out students to do it that way either.

i too did not learn this method, or figured out why people cut out the  
patterns. with a powerful enough lightbox, a glass table with a light under  
it, or even holding the pattern up to the window and using the sun, about the  
only time i find i need to do this is for cutting out a piece of black  
glass.

if you cut out the patterns, why?
---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Customer Assistance Center
Stratus Computer, Inc.
Phoenix, AZ
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 10:25:12 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 10:17:40 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.21740.0>
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RE:  If you cut out patterns why?

	1.  More accuracy in fitting pieces together.
	2.  Less wasted glass and a wonderful challenge to practice
            breaking out pieces from a sheet of glass.  Mostly, less
wasted glass is why I use a pattern and trace it on the glass.  I usually
give my students three options:  (1)  Cut the pattern an trace it; (2) Cut
the pattern and glue it; or (3) Use the lightbox method.  The beginners
glue the patterns onto the glass, the more advanced students trace, and
some use the lightbox method but I have found it wastes a lot of glass.
PJ

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 16:25:04 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
Date: 13 Dec 96 19:18:51 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.01851.0>
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   >There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a
   >hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...???

If Stone Age man/woman tied a hard rock to a stick and used the resulting tool
to chip off the edges of a flint to create an arrowhead or spear point (kinda
like working with dalles de verre), is the arrowhead/spear point "handmade"?

If using a simple tool like that doesn't disqualify the artifact, then what
about a steel sculpture created with a drop hammer, then polished with a
3/4-horse sander?

Same thing?

It's a good question.

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 16:25:28 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:18:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.141842.0>
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Charles Spitzer wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> > I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns fo all
> > your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
> > never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. And
> > don't teach out students to do it that way either.
> 
> i too did not learn this method, or figured out why people cut out the
> patterns. with a powerful enough lightbox, a glass table with a light under
> it, or even holding the pattern up to the window and using the sun, about the
> only time i find i need to do this is for cutting out a piece of black
> glass.
> 
> if you cut out the patterns, why?
> ---
> Charles Spitzer
> charlie@az.stratus.com
> Customer Assistance Center
> Stratus Computer, Inc.
> Phoenix, AZ
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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actually there is a better method for cutting black and other dark
colors. use carbon paper, put it in between the glass and the pattern,
trace the pattern on the glass, and there you go. just be sure to
retrace the line with a gold marker or something, because the blackish
film will rub off.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 16:27:59 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 19:20:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec13.142042.0>
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Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
> 
> RE:  If you cut out patterns why?
> 
>         1.  More accuracy in fitting pieces together.
>         2.  Less wasted glass and a wonderful challenge to practice
>             breaking out pieces from a sheet of glass.  Mostly, less
> wasted glass is why I use a pattern and trace it on the glass.  I usually
> give my students three options:  (1)  Cut the pattern an trace it; (2) Cut
> the pattern and glue it; or (3) Use the lightbox method.  The beginners
> glue the patterns onto the glass, the more advanced students trace, and
> some use the lightbox method but I have found it wastes a lot of glass.
> PJ
> 
> ----
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i really don't see how one wastes the glass and the other does'nt. when
you trace the piece on the glass it's usally placed near an edge, just
like you would any other method. but in any case it's a good idea to
know all the methods out there. i know i've used them all before.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 17:21:07 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: More software 2 revi
Date: 13 Dec 96 20:15:10 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.11510.0>
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   >Does the review software include the ability to print? I have downloaded 
   >trial copies of both of them, but when trying them out, I felt I didn't 
   >get the full impact of the software, because I couldn't print it out.  

You bet it does ... as big as you want (or as big a sheet of paper as your 
printer will take, of course).  Demo versions are usually disabled, unless 
they're shareware, and this isn't.  The full version prints, exports ... the 
works.

   >The reason I was trying them in the first place was to replace my time 
   >comsuming chore of saving my design in one format, and then bringing it 
   >up again in another program to print.

Well, sometimes you've just got to do that.  To prepare a photo for the web, 
for example, I first scan it in one program, export it to another, tweak its 
colors with a third and re-export it to the second.  The result is a high 
quality image with a very small file size.  All tools are not created equal 
and sometimes you have to use more than one to get the job done: saw, hammer, 
nails, sander, paintbrush, etc.

   >Whoever reviews, I would be really interested to know how easily it 
   >accomplishes full size designs, and if you have to go through 
   >percentages to get it to the size you want, or if it accomplishes that 
   >more easily.  I also don't like having to draw my design full size, and 
   >then store it on my computer, because it takes up too much space.  Can 
   >these programs accomplish that?

Good questions and I *will pass them on to whoever reviews.  If disk space is 
a problem, though, you really ought to grab one of those Zip drives: each 
disk costs about $15 ... and it stores 100 Mb of stuff.  You could probably 
keep all of your designs on one disk!

   >My other objective in a stained glass program is the ability to draw a 
   >straight line easily.  I haven't found that to be true with the American 
   >Bevel software.  I draw and then have to manipulate it to be straight.  
   >Takes a lot of my precious time.  Maybe I need more practice, but I've 
   >done computer design for over 6 years, I wouldn't think so.

Try this: Select the "pencil" from the tool bar on the left-hand 
side, then position the cursor where you want the line to begin and "Click." 
Then position it where you want the line to end and "Click" again.  A 
perfectly straight line will appear between the two points.  

If you want it to be perfectly *vertical, take a look at the numbers 
appearing in the lower left-hand corner of the screen: notice that as you 
move toward the center of your layout, the numbers go down to zero.  If both 
numbers *are zero, you're in the absolute dead center of the layout; as the 
left-hand number rises, you're moving to the right of center; as the 
right-hand number rises, you're moving above center, etc.  

To make a perfectly vertical line, position your cursor where you want it to 
begin and note the left-hand number.  "Click" and move to where the end of 
the line should be ... but be sure the left-hand number is identical before 
you click!  If it is, you'll have a vertical rule.  Same thing for horizontal 
rules, 'cept different.

Want my "capsule review" of AB's Designer 
as a "drawing tool"?  Cool, very cool.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 17:38:31 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Want to review software?
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 1996 17:33:31 -0800
Message-ID: <199612140133.RAA19019@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>
>A couple of weeks ago, we asked for a show of hands of those willing 
to review a
>pattern book.  We were surprised by the enthusiastic response. So...
>
>Would anyone here be interested in reviewing American Bevels' new 
design
>software? We have a free review copy -- manual and diskettes -- that 
we could
>send to you if you're willing, if you have worked with bevels, and are 
familiar
>with computer drawing programs ... and if you are working on a 
PC-compatible
>computer (the review copy won't run on Macs, sorry).
>
>Personally, I loaded the software and was impressed with its desktop 
design
>capabilities.  Then, heck, I designed a 34"x 80" door, dropping in 
American
>Bevels' stock items from the pick list.  It was very easy, dramatic in 
its
>presentation ... very slick.  (Oops!  I'm going to give away *my part 
of the
>review!)
>
>But I'm a desktop designer, mostly for print and some web design ... 
not a
>day-to-day bevel user.  My comments are going to have to do with the 
overall
>design capabilities of the software ... but we'd like to have someone 
who uses
>bevels all the time in their designs to review it, too.  So I've 
uninstalled the
>program and have the disks and manual ready to go.
>
>Tell us why you should do the review and we'll overnight it all to 
you.
>
>Your comments will be merged with those being made by yours truly and 
others who
>are already working with the software.  Your review's due by email a 
week after
>you receive the software.  Game?
>
>Albert
>      


Hi Albert,

I'd be willing to give reviewing the software a try. I read with 
interest the fact that this was coming out in Stained Glass, and would 
enjoy the chance to try it. I draw and design for a good size 
midwestern art glass studio. I use Autocad 12 and Corel 4 in  my work. 
Though I don't design exclusively with bevels we do have a good call 
for bevel clusters in custom windows. My method for presentation 
drawings in the past has been to digitize the required clusters and 
support bevels and insert them into the required panel blank already 
drawn to size. I then would finish any breakup as required. I would 
save the cluster and/or piece as a block. By doing this I have a decent 
collection of clusters, but still find that clients usually pick the 
clusters we haven't used before. One problem I have run into was 
inaccurate dimensions given in catalogs for a given cluster or stock 
pieces. One piece in particular gave various dimensions that when drawn 
did not work. Had to call our local distributor to have him run out to 
the warehouse and measure the piece. Maybe clusters drawn by the 
manufacturer will cure this ill. They sound like they could save time. 


Michael Smoucha  
>

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 18:39:01 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time - glass cutting "genetics"
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:59:21 +0000
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Michael wrote: 
>is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside 
>cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to 
>a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 
>traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You 
>can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
>cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
>definetly a skill that pays to develop. < (snip)
>a cutting method. 
ms

Len Alcamo wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up. I had no idea that much time could be spent
cutting a piece of glass. I had been thinking about why there are so many
folks that cut to a traced outline ( we used to call that the English method
Elisabeth) could it be because a trip to the grinder is expected with every
piece? 

In defense of many of our fellow (is that gender neutural?) listees I am
sure that many would have not taken up SG were it not for the tools and
equipement that are currently available. Though I think, for obvious
reasons, they are not encouraged by their retailers to approach the craft in
any other way. 

 My recommendation for learning glass cutting is to get ahold of a bunch of
old window glass and make little pieces out of big pieces, over and over and
over again.

I know that those of us who come out of a commercial studio background have
spent thousands of hours cutting tens of thousands of pieces of glass with
the couple of bucks glass cutter and cheapo pliers and have leaded up many
panels and replaced uncountable pieces of broken glass in church windows a
lot of the time working vertically, dangling off a a rubbery 40 ft ladder,
know what it takes to get good and even then you can be humbled into
realizing that the masterey is never ending because you run into someone
thats better at it then you. I guess its like sports, no matter how hard you
try in the end it comes down to genetics  :-) 


The standard for a difficult cut seems to be the deep tight radius inside
curve in my case Michael the cut that has always frustrated me most is the
long tapering point coming off a sweeping inside curve in a brittle obnoxous
opal

Have a good weekend

Len
Unquote...

Len, I absolutely loved your input to Michael's very interesting 
contribution . What he "looks for in a Craftsman" as regards glass 
cutting skills, I have to admit I totally and utterly agree with.  I 
also recognize that these skills so often take "a year or so" to get 
to grips with. After all these years I too still feel the need to 
perfect them even more.

Drawing techniques: How very interesting. I am well aware of the so 
called "English Method" and "American Method" (As part of learning 
the "American Method" I was instructed to buy these strange double 
scissors that cut out a piece of card (for me to draw around) which 
made a secondary cut to allow for the heart of the lead. I was then 
supposed to position this piece of card on my glass and draw again. 
Then I was to cut on top of my chinograph pen marks on the glass. 
This method really didn't suit me. It was too slow, to inaccurate and 
too much subject to trials of patience. Cutting out pieces of cards 
wasn't quiet ME.) 
The "English Method" I was taught was to draw your "Masterplan" (or as 
I call it "engineering drawings" with lead-lines, edging leads 
already to scale and absolutely perfectly scaled up.)  In "Olden Days" 
the English Stained Glass Masters drew on the wooden mounting board itself, rather 
than using paper.  If my lead heart size is 2 mm, then my ink-line on 
the paper IS 2 mm; if I am using "string-lead" (which I do 
occasionally), then I use special pens that is exactly the 
"heart"-thickness of this particular lead. My drawing is "My Bible".
Having made the perfect drawing, I then know EXACTLY where to cut to 
allow for the lead, curves or no curves.  Often, it's quite simply, 
can I achieve some of the physical contortions to achieve it....
Again, in my "engineering drawings", I have also included details 
where my "strong-line" re-inforcements are to go, where my panels 
need MORE re-inforcement, and so on (because the glass pieces need to 
be adjusted to accommodate for this. Often even the entire design, 
so that a re-inforcement doesn't cut across in a disturbing or 
insensitive way, but can be "moulded" along with the design itself.
. When it comes to "dense" glass, 
I trace the individual piece out on tracing paper and use my 
lightbox (if the glass is too dark to show through my drawing).
 When it comes to "black" glass, then and only then do I resort 
to cutting a paper/card template out to draw around with a chinograph 
pen.  (For my clocks, that I am likely to make more than one off, I 
use 2 mm picture glass to make a template, rather than paper/card).
I want to make such a cut every time that, smoothing off on the grinder is 
a second or two, rather than minutes. My students are most certainly 
never even initiated into the fact that there is a thing called "electrical glass 
grinder". They spend their first 10 - 15 hours doing nothing else but 
cutting old (or new) green-house glass.  I then make them aware of the 
importance of making accurate drawings and then I make them cut the 
 the entire design in green-house glass, before I let them loose on 
coloured glass, using the drawing as teir template. If they make a 
mess of their drawing, I make them do a fresh one again . 
When they have to use a manual carborandum stone to grind down all 
their jagged ends and mis-cuts, they very quickly realize the 
importance of  accurate cutting.. Yes, of course, grinders DO help, 
they are great! But at the end of the day, they do not replace the 
skill (acquired through hard learning or "genetics") of accurate 
cutting by hand.
I have BEEN up those 40 ft "wobbly" ladders in snow-storms and gails, 
and your comment made me laugh!! A grinder or a band-saw just aint 
much use then....!!
As regards (SOME!!) retailers and their selling techniques to our 
Newbies - Oh No!! I won't get on THAT hobby-horse again ! I have been 
there before and bruised some feelings in the past!! 
I thought it was really quite courageous and succint the remark 
Michael made, about it actually being buch faster and efficient to 
get the cut abslotely right by hand - first time round. I most 
certainly do not want to stand in the way of adopting new technology 
or new and better ways of doings things. Like everybody else, I  am 
actively looking and learning. But I do always question new 
innovations. There is a certain "time & motion study" involved and 
that is what I think Michael hit on very succinctly.
Len, you also high-lighted it. Thank you for that too.

"Standard of difficult cut"; Wow, ain't thos sea-grass leaves or palm 
leaves with that sharp, long very thin point just a "joy" to cut!!! 
Total bastards they are!!!
Sharp curves, deep radius - no problems, but those long, thin points - 
heaven help me!!
By the way, for anyone who has visited my home-page and said hello to 
my Dolphin; his body had to be cut twice, once for installation and 
once for my International Exhibition panel (a smaller and simplified 
version). The body of the Doilphin was a sheet of mouth-blown glass, 
which is full of air bubbles, different stresses, textures and various other
 "eccentricities".  It cost me an absolute fortune and It 
was about 6 mm one edge, tapering down to about 2 mm the oppositite 
edge. I have now forgotten who made it for me. Cutting the body and 
tail was a nightmare. The Dolphin also has an eye. That's not glued 
on, that is a free-hand circle hole cut into this mouthblown glass 
about 3/4" in the large panel and about 1/2" in the Exhibition panel, 
into which I slotted the equivalent sized "glob" as well as lead to 
fit perfectectly. It's not drilled out, it's CUT out. I have also 
repeated the same exercise for several barn owls (amber eyes in white 
solid glass faces) Solid white glass is notoriously "crumbly" and powdery, 
whoever makes it. You try and CUT  a perfect hole in one one of those, 
without cracking the glass.......
There again, I would use  my specially adapted drill (since acquired) 
to drill holes for clock movements.   But that takes me ages....
Those long thin, pointed pieces - yea they are REAL pigs!! Give me a 
round hole ANY time!!

-Don't fall off that ladder, LEN!!!
Take care now
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 13 18:39:43 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:59:21 +0000
Message-ID: <199612140234.CAA29938@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Hi Everybody,
Albert wrote
>  reviewing the product from
   >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
   >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to whoever
   >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the products
   >side-by-side.

   >-Michael Wilk
   > wilk@dfly.com

Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the review of
the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what Michael
proposes: review both?
unquote.
Now that's a challenge I find difficult to resist. I have already 
evaluated Michel's Glass Eye some months ago directly with him ( I 
have got both programme and the latest update from him) Through his 
helpful comments and advice, I am also getting more and more "computer 
literate" by the day. No I haven't made bevel designs commercially as 
yet, but I have "played" with them
Am I too far away here "Across the Pond" to  qualify?? (For 
Dragonlfly  GlassEye I certainly wasn't....)
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 02:45:00 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 05:37:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.03714.0>
References: <<m0vYbVN-000LiCC@why.az.stratus.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Charles Spitzer wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> > I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns fo all
> > your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
> > never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. And
> > don't teach out students to do it that way either.
> 
> i too did not learn this method, or figured out why people cut out the
> patterns. with a powerful enough lightbox, a glass table with a light under
> it, or even holding the pattern up to the window and using the sun, about the
> only time i find i need to do this is for cutting out a piece of black
> glass.
> 
> if you cut out the patterns, why?
> ---
> Charles Spitzer
> charlie@az.stratus.com
> Customer Assistance Center
> Stratus Computer, Inc.
> Phoenix, AZ
> ----

I was never taught to use a light box so I use patterns for everything. 
Could someone please describe the procedure for using a light box?
----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 03:55:47 1996
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From: Elsie Turqman <ElsieTurqman@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Houghton-Mifflin
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:51:57 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.115157.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I received the following message when I forwarded the request to E-mail
Houghton Mifflin.  It make sense to me.  Glad I didn't send it out to all my
list.

Elsie

> >Subject: FWD: an e-mail message from our computer guy
 
>Date: Fri, 13 Dec 96 14:02:00 +0000
>
>FORWARDED MESSAGE  
>cc:  From: /TA Staff/Internal/Tax Analysts/US
>Date: 12/12/96 04:40:58 PM
>Subject: E-mailing TA_Staff
>
>Hi All,
>
>Please do not e-mail anyone at Houghton Mifflin.  I personally believe that 
>this is an urban myth; malicious people on the Internet sometimes "mail 
>bomb" companies they don't like, with the intention of slowing down or 
>crashing the e-mail servers at the other end (thus delaying legitimate 
>e-mail).  Even if this is not an urban myth, there are certainly better 
>uses for our e-mail gateway as well as theirs.  And the way that things 
>like this spread like wildfire, they could be millions or billions of 
>e-mails from well-meaning individuals, which could drag their e-mail server 
>to its knees.  Even if they do donate books for all the e-mails they get, I 
>doubt they realized what they were getting into.
>
>Thanks in advance!
>Kendall
 

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 06:14:38 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: finishing
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 08:06:26 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961213163257.21ef5002@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi;
        I am finishing a large copper foil project.  I have always used
copper patina on the solder.  However the buyer thinks they prefer silver
color on this one, but not shiny.  If I finish it and wax it the solder will
be shiny.  Any suggestions?  Meg
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 09:36:09 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: window making big studio style
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 11:31:12 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612141731.LAA09736@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Bungi rises to the occasion again. The glass cutting thread has been
facinating. I never realized there were so many approaches to glass cutting.

 Here is a run down of the general process as I learned it and I believe is
fairly standard to church studios in the US. Just for general info and for
the archives.

***Approved hand colored tranparency or painted matte scaled rendering by
design staff

***Full size pencil layout called a cartoon done by artist based on field
measurements

*** cartoon sandwiched with carbon paper in two layers one layer of tag
board for patterns one layer of kraft paper for leading template

*** cartoon traced over with hard red pencil so you know where you've been  

*** goes to *glass picker* who works off design and selects glass based on
approved samples of glass type shade hue etc. also existing work in church
and inventory considerations. Sometimes picker and designer are one and the
same depending on work load. 

*** glass selection is coded and numbered on the cartoon. Grain direction
and shading and pieces to be painted if any are indicated.

*** paper is separated and pattern board is cut with pattern shears. All
like coded pieces are grouped and put together with the appropriate amount
of specified glass on a tray to be either cut immediately or racked to be
cut at later time.

*** pieces to be painted are cut and sent to the painters

Since this is the proceedure in a production studio where several different
workers are involved in the process at different times and jobs may be
partially cut on different days you can understand one of the reasons why
the the patterns need to be cut out. A production studio is low and behold!
an assembly line.

After glass is all cut it is layed out on the original cartoon inspected and
approved then to glaziers it goes. Next stop the mudder who will also attach
bracing if preinstalling is applicable.

Final cleaning and inspection follows. Then out the door onto the truck for
delivery and installation. 

 And of course DON'T FORGET TO GET THE CHECK!!  one of my former bosses
favorite expressions  :-)


 Of course there are numerous other steps and details involved most of them
general business stuff 
sales, marketing, inventory control, production scheduling, installation run
itineraries etc. etc. but thats more or less how it went in the new window
division of a big studio.

Len


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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 09:46:17 1996
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From: B J Snell <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 12:41:26 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961214124139.23b7d5d0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 09:40 PM 12/12/96 -0500, you wrote:

>
>the only tools that i think will stay pretty much the same are glass
>cutters the hand held type (not the sewing machine type). and foiling or
>leading by hand. there are tools to foil with but nothing is more
>professional than a hand (not to mention tighter foil lines, as in it
>won't come off if you blow on it). and of course using lead will pretty
>much stay the same as it did hundreds of years agom they'll improve the
>lead and materials, but basically the method is unchanged, they can
>never make a machine (affordably) to do the caming.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
                Mike....... will you explain to me what "sewing machine
type" cutters are.... Thanks.  I am not familier with this term...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barbara J. Snell
Jansen's Dining, Cornell University
255-5960
bjs10@cornell.edu

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 11:01:04 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:53:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.85359.0>
References: <<2.2.16.19961214124139.23b7d5d0@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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B J Snell wrote:
> 
> At 09:40 PM 12/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >the only tools that i think will stay pretty much the same are glass
> >cutters the hand held type (not the sewing machine type). and foiling or
> >leading by hand. there are tools to foil with but nothing is more
> >professional than a hand (not to mention tighter foil lines, as in it
> >won't come off if you blow on it). and of course using lead will pretty
> >much stay the same as it did hundreds of years agom they'll improve the
> >lead and materials, but basically the method is unchanged, they can
> >never make a machine (affordably) to do the caming.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> >
>                 Mike....... will you explain to me what "sewing machine
> type" cutters are.... Thanks.  I am not familier with this term...
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Barbara J. Snell
> Jansen's Dining, Cornell University
> 255-5960
> bjs10@cornell.edu
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah i had a feeling someone would ask (it was a little late when i
typed it to explain). there's two types that i catagorize in the sewing
machine area:

1. they once sold a product that actually attached to a sewing machine
and you pushed the glass through as you would cloth.  i don't think it
sold to well, i only saw advertised once.

2. there is the second one that looks like a sewing machine ( and i
think they still sell it). it's made up of a glass cutter on the top and
rubber rollers on the bottom. there's also a knob on the side to draw
the glass in. with this machine you can get very accurate strips of
glass made, along with deeper curves. it's good for people who can't
apply alot of pressure with a standard cutter. however as good as it is,
it really can do only smooth glass. if the back side is bumpy or
rippled, i don't think the rollers can pull the glass through.  

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 11:04:47 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: finishing
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 13:57:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.85725.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961213163257.21ef5002@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         I am finishing a large copper foil project.  I have always used
> copper patina on the solder.  However the buyer thinks they prefer silver
> color on this one, but not shiny.  If I finish it and wax it the solder will
> be shiny.  Any suggestions?  Meg
> Richard and Meg LaVal
> apdo. 24-5655
> Monteverde
> COSTA RICA
> tel: 506 645 5052
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


try pledge furniture polish. this should shine the glass but should'nt
over do the solder. either way the solder will dull by it self, so if
it's shiny now it'll dull later. maybe if you used steel wool, and give
it a slight matt texture to knock off the shine.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 11:10:24 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 14:03:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.9317.0>
References: <<1996Dec14.03714.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

James R. Laws wrote:
> 
> Charles Spitzer wrote:
> >
> > You wrote:
> > > I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns fo all
> > > your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
> > > never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. And
> > > don't teach out students to do it that way either.
> >
> > i too did not learn this method, or figured out why people cut out the
> > patterns. with a powerful enough lightbox, a glass table with a light under
> > it, or even holding the pattern up to the window and using the sun, about the
> > only time i find i need to do this is for cutting out a piece of black
> > glass.
> >
> > if you cut out the patterns, why?
> > ---
> > Charles Spitzer
> > charlie@az.stratus.com
> > Customer Assistance Center
> > Stratus Computer, Inc.
> > Phoenix, AZ
> > ----
> 
> I was never taught to use a light box so I use patterns for everything.
> Could someone please describe the procedure for using a light box?
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well basically you get a light box, and there's several ways you can use
it:

1. place the pattern down on the box, place the glass down on the
pattern, and trace the outline onto the surface of the glass. 

2. do the same as above, only instead of tracing it with a marker,
simply cut the pattern out while the light box is still on.

3. i mentioned the carbon paper method in an earlier post, use the light
box to see where the edge of the glass is, when your looking though your
pattern.

sometimes using a light box is tricky, for example, sometimes the glass
distorts the line (usally because of the thickness of the glass). other
times the glass maybe to opaque and it may be difficult if not
impossible to see the line. i personnally use the light box method, but
i've also used all the other methods as well.

---Mike Savad




-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 12:41:09 1996
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User ejcornell is not defined

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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
Date: 13 Dec 96 19:18:51 EST
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   >There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a
   >hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...???

If Stone Age man/woman tied a hard rock to a stick and used the resulting tool
to chip off the edges of a flint to create an arrowhead or spear point (kinda
like working with dalles de verre), is the arrowhead/spear point "handmade"?

If using a simple tool like that doesn't disqualify the artifact, then what
about a steel sculpture created with a drop hammer, then polished with a
3/4-horse sander?

Same thing?

It's a good question.

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 12:50:46 1996
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User ejcornell is not defined

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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time - glass cutting "genetics"
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 02:59:21 +0000
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Michael wrote: 
>is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky inside 
>cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut to 
>a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 
>traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. You 
>can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
>cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
>definetly a skill that pays to develop. < (snip)
>a cutting method. 
ms

Len Alcamo wrote:

I'm glad you brought that up. I had no idea that much time could be spent
cutting a piece of glass. I had been thinking about why there are so many
folks that cut to a traced outline ( we used to call that the English method
Elisabeth) could it be because a trip to the grinder is expected with every
piece? 

In defense of many of our fellow (is that gender neutural?) listees I am
sure that many would have not taken up SG were it not for the tools and
equipement that are currently available. Though I think, for obvious
reasons, they are not encouraged by their retailers to approach the craft in
any other way. 

 My recommendation for learning glass cutting is to get ahold of a bunch of
old window glass and make little pieces out of big pieces, over and over and
over again.

I know that those of us who come out of a commercial studio background have
spent thousands of hours cutting tens of thousands of pieces of glass with
the couple of bucks glass cutter and cheapo pliers and have leaded up many
panels and replaced uncountable pieces of broken glass in church windows a
lot of the time working vertically, dangling off a a rubbery 40 ft ladder,
know what it takes to get good and even then you can be humbled into
realizing that the masterey is never ending because you run into someone
thats better at it then you. I guess its like sports, no matter how hard you
try in the end it comes down to genetics  :-) 


The standard for a difficult cut seems to be the deep tight radius inside
curve in my case Michael the cut that has always frustrated me most is the
long tapering point coming off a sweeping inside curve in a brittle obnoxous
opal

Have a good weekend

Len
Unquote...

Len, I absolutely loved your input to Michael's very interesting 
contribution . What he "looks for in a Craftsman" as regards glass 
cutting skills, I have to admit I totally and utterly agree with.  I 
also recognize that these skills so often take "a year or so" to get 
to grips with. After all these years I too still feel the need to 
perfect them even more.

Drawing techniques: How very interesting. I am well aware of the so 
called "English Method" and "American Method" (As part of learning 
the "American Method" I was instructed to buy these strange double 
scissors that cut out a piece of card (for me to draw around) which 
made a secondary cut to allow for the heart of the lead. I was then 
supposed to position this piece of card on my glass and draw again. 
Then I was to cut on top of my chinograph pen marks on the glass. 
This method really didn't suit me. It was too slow, to inaccurate and 
too much subject to trials of patience. Cutting out pieces of cards 
wasn't quiet ME.) 
The "English Method" I was taught was to draw your "Masterplan" (or as 
I call it "engineering drawings" with lead-lines, edging leads 
already to scale and absolutely perfectly scaled up.)  In "Olden Days" 
the English Stained Glass Masters drew on the wooden mounting board itself, rather 
than using paper.  If my lead heart size is 2 mm, then my ink-line on 
the paper IS 2 mm; if I am using "string-lead" (which I do 
occasionally), then I use special pens that is exactly the 
"heart"-thickness of this particular lead. My drawing is "My Bible".
Having made the perfect drawing, I then know EXACTLY where to cut to 
allow for the lead, curves or no curves.  Often, it's quite simply, 
can I achieve some of the physical contortions to achieve it....
Again, in my "engineering drawings", I have also included details 
where my "strong-line" re-inforcements are to go, where my panels 
need MORE re-inforcement, and so on (because the glass pieces need to 
be adjusted to accommodate for this. Often even the entire design, 
so that a re-inforcement doesn't cut across in a disturbing or 
insensitive way, but can be "moulded" along with the design itself.
. When it comes to "dense" glass, 
I trace the individual piece out on tracing paper and use my 
lightbox (if the glass is too dark to show through my drawing).
 When it comes to "black" glass, then and only then do I resort 
to cutting a paper/card template out to draw around with a chinograph 
pen.  (For my clocks, that I am likely to make more than one off, I 
use 2 mm picture glass to make a template, rather than paper/card).
I want to make such a cut every time that, smoothing off on the grinder is 
a second or two, rather than minutes. My students are most certainly 
never even initiated into the fact that there is a thing called "electrical glass 
grinder". They spend their first 10 - 15 hours doing nothing else but 
cutting old (or new) green-house glass.  I then make them aware of the 
importance of making accurate drawings and then I make them cut the 
 the entire design in green-house glass, before I let them loose on 
coloured glass, using the drawing as teir template. If they make a 
mess of their drawing, I make them do a fresh one again . 
When they have to use a manual carborandum stone to grind down all 
their jagged ends and mis-cuts, they very quickly realize the 
importance of  accurate cutting.. Yes, of course, grinders DO help, 
they are great! But at the end of the day, they do not replace the 
skill (acquired through hard learning or "genetics") of accurate 
cutting by hand.
I have BEEN up those 40 ft "wobbly" ladders in snow-storms and gails, 
and your comment made me laugh!! A grinder or a band-saw just aint 
much use then....!!
As regards (SOME!!) retailers and their selling techniques to our 
Newbies - Oh No!! I won't get on THAT hobby-horse again ! I have been 
there before and bruised some feelings in the past!! 
I thought it was really quite courageous and succint the remark 
Michael made, about it actually being buch faster and efficient to 
get the cut abslotely right by hand - first time round. I most 
certainly do not want to stand in the way of adopting new technology 
or new and better ways of doings things. Like everybody else, I  am 
actively looking and learning. But I do always question new 
innovations. There is a certain "time & motion study" involved and 
that is what I think Michael hit on very succinctly.
Len, you also high-lighted it. Thank you for that too.

"Standard of difficult cut"; Wow, ain't thos sea-grass leaves or palm 
leaves with that sharp, long very thin point just a "joy" to cut!!! 
Total bastards they are!!!
Sharp curves, deep radius - no problems, but those long, thin points - 
heaven help me!!
By the way, for anyone who has visited my home-page and said hello to 
my Dolphin; his body had to be cut twice, once for installation and 
once for my International Exhibition panel (a smaller and simplified 
version). The body of the Doilphin was a sheet of mouth-blown glass, 
which is full of air bubbles, different stresses, textures and various other
 "eccentricities".  It cost me an absolute fortune and It 
was about 6 mm one edge, tapering down to about 2 mm the oppositite 
edge. I have now forgotten who made it for me. Cutting the body and 
tail was a nightmare. The Dolphin also has an eye. That's not glued 
on, that is a free-hand circle hole cut into this mouthblown glass 
about 3/4" in the large panel and about 1/2" in the Exhibition panel, 
into which I slotted the equivalent sized "glob" as well as lead to 
fit perfectectly. It's not drilled out, it's CUT out. I have also 
repeated the same exercise for several barn owls (amber eyes in white 
solid glass faces) Solid white glass is notoriously "crumbly" and powdery, 
whoever makes it. You try and CUT  a perfect hole in one one of those, 
without cracking the glass.......
There again, I would use  my specially adapted drill (since acquired) 
to drill holes for clock movements.   But that takes me ages....
Those long thin, pointed pieces - yea they are REAL pigs!! Give me a 
round hole ANY time!!

-Don't fall off that ladder, LEN!!!
Take care now
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 15:40:57 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: finishing
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 10:24:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec14.5246.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961213163257.21ef5002@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
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Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         I am finishing a large copper foil project.  I have always used
> copper patina on the solder.  However the buyer thinks they prefer silver
> color on this one, but not shiny.  If I finish it and wax it the solder will
> be shiny.  Any suggestions?  Meg
> Richard and Meg LaVal
> apdo. 24-5655
> Monteverde
> COSTA RICA
> tel: 506 645 5052

Don't do a very good job with the polish????  (I'm kidding)  There is 
such a thing as pewter patina...might be the thing they are looking for. 
 However I don't have a home recipe for it, and it may not be easily 
available to you.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 20:37:33 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: window making big studio style
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 20:36:59 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150436.UAA29306@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
> Bungi rises to the occasion again. The glass cutting thread has been
>facinating. I never realized there were so many approaches to glass 
cutting.
>
> Here is a run down of the general process as I learned it and I 
believe is
>fairly standard to church studios in the US. Just for general info and 
for
>the archives.
>
>***Approved hand colored tranparency or painted matte scaled rendering 
by
>design staff
>
>***Full size pencil layout called a cartoon done by artist based on 
field
>measurements
>
>*** cartoon sandwiched with carbon paper in two layers one layer of 
tag
>board for patterns one layer of kraft paper for leading template
>
>*** cartoon traced over with hard red pencil so you know where you've 
been  
>
>*** goes to *glass picker* who works off design and selects glass 
based on
>approved samples of glass type shade hue etc. also existing work in 
church
>and inventory considerations. Sometimes picker and designer are one 
and the
>same depending on work load. 
>
>*** glass selection is coded and numbered on the cartoon. Grain 
direction
>and shading and pieces to be painted if any are indicated.
>
>*** paper is separated and pattern board is cut with pattern shears. 
All
>like coded pieces are grouped and put together with the appropriate 
amount
>of specified glass on a tray to be either cut immediately or racked to 
be
>cut at later time.
>
>*** pieces to be painted are cut and sent to the painters
>
>Since this is the proceedure in a production studio where several 
different
>workers are involved in the process at different times and jobs may be
>partially cut on different days you can understand one of the reasons 
why
>the the patterns need to be cut out. A production studio is low and 
behold!
>an assembly line.
>
>After glass is all cut it is layed out on the original cartoon 
inspected and
>approved then to glaziers it goes. Next stop the mudder who will also 
attach
>bracing if preinstalling is applicable.
>
>Final cleaning and inspection follows. Then out the door onto the 
truck for
>delivery and installation. 
>
> And of course DON'T FORGET TO GET THE CHECK!!  one of my former 
bosses
>favorite expressions  :-)
>
>
> Of course there are numerous other steps and details involved most of 
them
>general business stuff 
>sales, marketing, inventory control, production scheduling, 
installation run
>itineraries etc. etc. but thats more or less how it went in the new 
window
>division of a big studio.
>
>Len
>
>
>----Hi Len,
Good synopsis of the genesis of an ecclesiastic stained glass window. 
All of the major steps are indeed present. Here, again for the general 
interest of the group are a few additional points. 

As mentioned each pattern is numbered. This numbering generally 
includes a window number, a panel number and a pattern number (i.e. 
1b/44) This is quite important because many church projects can include 
many windows comprised of many panels. It is also not unusual for more 
than one job to be going on at the same time, thus adding to the 
confusion. 

It is not unusual for a good size church job to contain thirty to forty 
windows of two or more panels each. A job of this size could generate 
thousands of patterns. Often for continuity sake it is best to cut as 
many of the windows at a time as space will allow. This is because  
runs of glass differ. Even the same glass color from the same 
manufacturer can differ in obvious ways when produced on different 
days. It is often advisable to try to spread glass sheets throughout 
the job. If possible windows with common background colors and textures 
are laid out so all patterns using the same color are cut at the same 
time. In a job our studio is currently working on we have cut up 
approximately 30 sheets of just one color of blue common to forty 
panels. It is important to try to have enough glass on hand for this, 
or anticipate shortages early in the project so that substitutions can 
be made in a continuous manner. Keeping color transitions and relations 
is also much easier when windows that relate are done at the same time.

One thing that your rundown does not convey is the number of times that 
each piece of glass is handled prior to the windows being installed in 
the church. This is especially true with the painted windows. In many 
modern ecclesiastic windows every piece in the panels is painted. 

With painting each piece has to be meticulously cleaned then carefully 
laid out on the light box on top of the art work. Allowance for lead 
spacing is made and the painter is then free to begin. (This is a great 
time to check for continuity and color relations.) Trace paint is 
applied for all of the black "outlines". This is allowed to dry for a 
minimum of 24 hours (more if its very humid). The trace lines are then 
cleaned and sharpened up. The pieces are then matte painted for 
shading. Each piece is then picked up and excess matte and trace is 
cleaned off of the backs of each piece. The cleaned pieces are put in a 
tray for cueing into the kiln. Here pieces are arranged for maximum 
space usage on the kiln trays. After firing pieces are removed and 
checked for proper firing. If all went well pieces are returned to 
their tray (hopefully in the correct panel tray.) Any faces, hands and 
other detailed pieces may need additional stains and thus other firings 
(and cleanings, and cleanings..). Any pieces that blow up in the kiln 
(and any other pieces the shards may melt on or knock off need to be 
re-cut and repainted. Though sometimes figuring out which piece is 
blown is a forensic excersize.) After the firing of a number of panels 
the pieces are again picked up cleaned and laid out on the glazing 
cartoon. ( This is often times very similar to doing a jigsaw puzzle 
often with missing pieces, as pieces from one panel invariably end up 
in the wrong tray.) Once a panel is all found and laid out the glaziers 
begin.

Throughout the whole process one of the harder aspects is making sure 
that all of the pieces, panels and windows are properly marked. As Len 
mentioned there are often many people involved in this process, and it 
is quite important that somewhere along the line someone does not 
switch panel numbers or place the marking tag on the wrong side or 
upsidedown. (often the installers working out of town are working late 
into the night  and may not notice that Christ is standing on his head 
until the scaffolding is moved and they come back in to continue 
installing the next morning.) 

As Len mentioned in some ways it is similar to an assembly line in that 
much of the work is done in "bulk". The large studio try's to exploit 
the economy of scale. But all of that said the processes and steps are 
still the same as those used by many of the subscribers on this list 
and the workers involved still attack the work with the same zeal and 
excitement as many of you exhibit for this art. I have worked in 
ecclesiastic studios for the last 25 years and most of the people in 
the studio I work with have been in the field for decades. ( Our team 
has worked together for 16 years now with some members working together 
for 20 or more.) All of us still love the work and approach each job 
with the same excitement as when we started. One of the most wonderful 
things about this field is that no matter how many churches, 
residences, restorations, installations you do each one is different 
and offers unique challenges and opportunities to learn and exploit all 
that you have learned for your past projects. Ours is a field that 
though we use computers and much of the latest technologies still in 
essence do our work much the same as the craftspeople who glazed the 
windows for the Chartes.

Hope that this has been of some interest to some of you. 


ms

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 20:50:01 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time - Mike's lamp
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 20:49:33 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150449.UAA12373@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>Hi Mike Savad et al,
>
>The input has been most  interesting. Marti Streng has some very good 
>points.
>How to price?
>
>OK, you guys prefer to price per piece or per hour. A lot of trades 
>and professions do. The first thing to detirmine your labour costs is 
>by deciding in what category you come under,
>e.g a domestic cleaner rates USD.X/hr (in UK approx. USD.8/hr)
>a typist /secretary/electrician/garage mechanic/lawyer have all their 
>different rates per hour. The more experienced in any one trade can 
>charge more than one just setting up.
>A high-school teacher gets less money than a university lecturer and 
>so on.
>Mike definitely belongs to the "senior" skill and should charge for 
>that.
>
>Taking the figure of USD.5,000 that Mike has priced his lamp at, I 
>have divided it by the number of hours he has spent on it (If I 
>remember correctly, 209 ?? Anyhow that's the figure I have used in my 
>exercise). I arrive at very roughly USD. 24/hour. (A garage mechanic 
>charges more than double this amount in UK for his labour cost alone)
>Hopefuly, you will have spotted the deliberate omission:
> FIRST to deduct from this total figure
>1. Cost of ALL raw material (including wastage)
>2. cost of materials acquisition ( time and petrol/postage/telephone/
>    stationary/ art & design materials etc.
>3. cost of tools & machinery used (wear & tear). What would it
>    have cost you if you had to HIRE all your gear?! No it's not over 
>    the top. Many small companies lease their equipment until they
>    built up sufficient profit to invest in owning their own. That  
>    cost has to be covered from somewhere
>4. Cost of heating, light and other electricity used for 209 or so 
>hours
>5. Health & Safety costs (goggles, gloves, ventilation gear etc).
>6. Cost of space (Fine, so you have converted your spare room to
>    be your stained glass studio. But you could have taken on a 
>    lodger who would have paid you rent for that room...).
>7. Books, magazines, subscriptions, membership fees....
>8. Vehicle maintenance costs must have a portion charged to
>    stained glass
>9. Miscellaneous costs ( e.g. an e-mail about your lamp costs you
>    time and telephone charges, furniture, shelves, special carpets, 
>    aprons, First Aid stuff and so on)
>
>Let's take a figure "out of the air" of items 1-9 costing you USD. 
>2,000 out of the 5,000. It's most likely totally wrong. I am using it 
>only for this argument. That leaves 
>you USD.3,000 to pay for labour COST. That equates with about 
>USD.14/hour.( In UK that "buys" you a shop-assistant for an 
>hour.). Too low for YOUR work?? Definitely YES!!!
>
>Having paid for labour COST, where is your PROFIT on the lamp????
>And, by the way, does the time you quote also allow for the time you 
>had to go and  collect the materials. OK, you might have collected 
>materials for 2 or 3 other jobs, but then devide the time and charge 
>the "portion" to each job concerned. That's ALSO labour COST (Same 
applies if 
>you sat for hours over a mail order catalogue and ordered THAT 
>way... You still spent a portion of your time on this project and the 
>freight costs you had to pay also included a portion for this 
>particular project.)
>
>I take on board that you - as you say - don't depend on the money 
>from your stained glass to eat, and very likely you would be satisfied 

>just geting back what you spent on it.
>But I thought it would be quite useful to take the idea through from 
>beginning to end, if it then can help those folks who DO depend on 
>their stained glass to eat.
>They will need to carry out a fairly ruthless  cost analysis, 
>covering every minute detail and 
>consider (and price!) every single aspect that involves their stained 
>glass activity.
>Hope this is of help!
>
>Yea, I am a good one to talk... one of my students informed me only 
>the other day about an article she had been reading in a very recent 
>BBC publication about "How To Commission a Stained Glass Artist".It 
>also included guide-lines of prices you would be expected to pay as a 
>customer.  I need to DOUBLE my own prices!!
>Just shows you!!
>Elisabeth 'n Toby
>----


Well put Elisabeth. I think you have covered many of the points that 
need be considered when pricing a project. As the patriarch of our 
studio had said when asked how long it took him to paint a piece priced 
at $3000 , "Oh about 40 years". Experience and paying your dues is what 
it is all about in the art buisness,(and also in most other skilled 
professions.) Lets not undersell our skills. It is very easy to 
underestimate the level of your own experience and knowledge, and 
therefor underprice your work. 

ms
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 21:36:10 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: More software 2 review?.
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 21:35:43 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150535.VAA02003@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>
>   >We saw your recent glass@bungi posting about reviewing the product 
from
>   >American Bevel.  Perhaps a comparison with The Glass Eye would be
>   >interesting.  We are willing to send a free copy of our program to 
whoever
>   >is doing the American Bevel review so that they can evaluate the 
products
>   >side-by-side.
>
>   >-Michael Wilk
>   > wilk@dfly.com
>
>Michael ups the ante.  Those of you who may be interested in doing the 
review of
>the American Bevel software, let us know if you'd like to do what 
Michael
>proposes: review both?
>
>Albert
>                __________________________________________
>                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                __________________________________________
>                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
>
>----


Hi Albert,

I would be interested in this challenge. As I mentioned in my last post 
I have been using Autocad 12 for most of my work because of it's 
extensive drawing capabilities, and also because of it's ability to 
digitize a sketch using a tablet, thus turning a small sketch into a 
full size pattern even if the aspect ratios differ. I have also used 
Corel draw and am familiar with importing/exporting of various file 
formats and the pitfalls and shortcomings that these translations can 
cause.

Owning both of these platforms gives me a good feel for the various 
drawing packages available on the market. It will also give me the 
ability to experiment with the import/export capabilities of the new 
software packages.

My work in a large studio has also allowed me experience in having  
drawings plotted full size. ( I have had drawings of a curtain wall 14' 
x 120' printed out.) I thus have had success in printing out large 
projects and could use this experience to contrast and compare the ease 
of output on the new packages. I have also had occasion to scale 
drawings up or down and to reuse artwork adapting it for different size 
openings with potentially different aspect ratios.

Lastly my location in a large metro area allows me access to a large 
number of plotting and other printing service bureaus, a resource that 
many of us who can not afford expensive output devices will probably 
end up taking advantage of.

In short I have extensive experience in both the use of computers and 
drawing software and am a professional art glass craftsman familiar 
with all aspects of the field. I could put the software through it's 
paces.

ms
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 22:04:48 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:04:23 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150604.WAA06149@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>

>
>I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut patterns 
fo all
>your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We have
>never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. 
And
>don't teach out students to do it that way either.  But then again we
>remember the days when there wasn't a even a foiling machine or a 
compny
>called Glastar!!
>
>my best,
>pj  
>

Yes for the most part, repair work is the exception. On all new work we 
produce patterns from the full size drawings. These are cut out using 
lead pattern shears. In the scheme of things it represents about 5-10% 
of production time. The other exception to this is a geometric panel 
where working from dimensions with a 1/32 allowance for each came heart 
is more accurate, producing a much cleaner panel ( in some cases we 
will still produce patterns for areas of art i.e. flowers or vines or 
medalions.)

ms

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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 22:08:42 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:08:15 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150608.WAA03375@dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>
>>I've been working profesionaly in art glass for 25 years and know of 
no 
>>one who uses any of these tools except for the most outlandish cuts. 
We 
>>even cut out holes in the middle of the glass with only a $1 CRL 
>>jobsite cutter. The reason for this lack of mechaninzation is time. 
It 
>>is considerably quicker to cut pieces by hand, even very tricky 
inside 
>>cuts. The one skill we look for in a craftsman is the ability to cut 
to 
>>a pattern exactly first time. We also cut to the pattern and not to a 

>>traced outline of the pattern. Again the overriding reason is time. 
You 
>>can score the peice in the same time it takes to trace it. Glass 
>>cutting can take 1/2 the time for production of a piece so it is 
>>definetly a skill that pays to develop. The savings that 15-30 second 

>>per piece represents when multiplied by thousands or tens of 
thousands 
>>of pieces is quite considerably. Even grosing can be a much quicker 
>>operation when its only being used to clean off sharp edges and not 
as 
>>a cutting method. 
>ms
>
>Micheal
>
>I'm glad you brought that up. I had no idea that much time could be 
spent
>cutting a piece of glass. I had been thinking about why there are so 
many
>folks that cut to a traced outline ( we used to call that the English 
method
>Elisabeth) could it be because a trip to the grinder is expected with 
every
>piece?



I to have always heard of it as the "English Method" (no offense) 
>




>In defense of many of our fellow (is that gender neutural?) listees I 
am
>sure that many would have not taken up SG were it not for the tools 
and
>equipement that are currently available. Though I think, for obvious
>reasons, they are not encouraged by their retailers to approach the 
craft in
>any other way. 
>
> My recommendation for learning glass cutting is to get ahold of a 
bunch of
>old window glass and make little pieces out of big pieces, over and 
over and
>over again.
>
>I know that those of us who come out of a commercial studio background 
have
>spent thousands of hours cutting tens of thousands of pieces of glass 
with
>the couple of bucks glass cutter and cheapo pliers and have leaded up 
many
>panels and replaced uncountable pieces of broken glass in church 
windows a
>lot of the time working vertically, dangling off a a rubbery 40 ft 
ladder,
>know what it takes to get good and even then you can be humbled into
>realizing that the masterey is never ending because you run into 
someone
>thats better at it then you. I guess its like sports, no matter how 
hard you
>try in the end it comes down to genetics  :-)


This sounds like good advice Len and no matter how much you work 
developing your cutting skills will pay dividends quickly. Your 
suggestion to practice with clear glass has a lot of merit. Its is much 
easier to cut, much more forgiving, and sure to give the positive 
reinforcement all of us require to keep on.
>
>
>The standard for a difficult cut seems to be the deep tight radius 
inside
>curve in my case Michael the cut that has always frustrated me most is 

the
>long tapering point coming off a sweeping inside curve in a brittle 
obnoxous
>opal

I invariably make these cuts (albiet after many attempts) only to have 
it break in the glazing ( or "woe be to the apprentices" in the 
cementing) Lately I've been breaking them off just prior to glazing the 

piece in to avoid the coming frustration ( as long as the lead will 
cover ).
>
>Have a good weekend
>
>Len
>
>----

Thanks Len, I'll try. It is the season after all. Deadlines are 
looming. Christmas you know. The time of the 60 hour weeks.

ms
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 22:20:14 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:19:47 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150619.WAA26666@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>You wrote:
>> I was wondering just from you comment.  Do you happen to cut 
patterns fo all
>> your work?  I hear so much about people cutting patterns out.  We 
have
>> never, ever cut a pattern out for a piece!!!! Just no need  for it. 
And
>> don't teach out students to do it that way either.
>
>i too did not learn this method, or figured out why people cut out the 
 
>patterns. with a powerful enough lightbox, a glass table with a light 
under  
>it, or even holding the pattern up to the window and using the sun, 
about the  
>only time i find i need to do this is for cutting out a piece of black 
 
>glass.
>
>if you cut out the patterns, why?
>---
>

Speed and accuracy. In a large studio environment you may find yourself 
cutting 70-100 pieces out of the same color. if you use the "english 
method" thats a lot of moving of glass or picking up of drawing and 
glass to the sun. Once the patterns are cut you need to just pull all 
of the pieces set to be a given color, then you just cut.( economy of 
scale.)
 When using pattern shears 1/32" is taken out between each piece. all 
lines that intersect are crosscut assuring proper lineup. When working 
on large panels ( we have produced rose windows in 4 sections with a 
10' diameter) if you are not extremely accurate in your cutting and 
heart allowance the window can grow by inches ( more if your really 
off) by the time you are finished. This can be disastorous when trying 
to install in a 3/8 rabbet. (It can also ply hell on your lineup.)

ms 
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From owner-glass Sat Dec 14 22:28:15 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 1996 22:27:35 -0800
Message-ID: <199612150627.WAA14358@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>
>   >There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a
>   >hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...???
>
>If Stone Age man/woman tied a hard rock to a stick and used the 
resulting tool
>to chip off the edges of a flint to create an arrowhead or spear point 
(kinda
>like working with dalles de verre), is the arrowhead/spear point 
"handmade"?
>
>If using a simple tool like that doesn't disqualify the artifact, then 
what
>about a steel sculpture created with a drop hammer, then polished with 
a
>3/4-horse sander?
>
>Same thing?
>
>It's a good question.
>
>

Good point Albert. If a human is weilding the machine how can it be 
machine made? I have had some instance to deal with machine bevelers 
who actually do use cad/cam to cut glass. This technology is still 
restricted to simple straight cuts. anything with curves or complex 
cuts are still handed off to the humans. Then there are the water jet 
cutters. These can cut any shape you can concieve right out of the 
heart of your stock. Luckily these are still prohibitivly expensive, 
and will probably remain so for all but the must repetitive of task 
(one we humans probably don't mind passing on.)

ms
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 03:07:29 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Software reviewer picked
Date: 15 Dec 96 06:05:30 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec15.11530.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Once again, I want to thank everyone here for their willingness and the rapidity
with which they respond to invitations to review this and that. Our post
anouncing that American Bevel's Designer program, quickly followed by
Dragonfly's, needed a reviewer was met with long, thoughtful and often *repeated
offers to do the "job."

Thanks go to Bart Huffman, Jenna (at Meredith Stained Glass), Kay Allen, Michael
& Donna McGrew, Michael Smoucha, Mike Savad, and pj Friend.

It was hard, because they all seemed so talented and able to do the review, but
after narrowing the field to two, I called both studios to make sure they were
running Windows95 (because one of the programs will run *only on that operating
system).  Both of them were, so that didn't help.  So I just closed my eyes
tight and picked pj Friend out in California.

Congrats, pj.  We'll be looking forward to your comparison of the two programs,
but any of the rest of you who are running the software already are welcome to
add your comments about it.  Feel free!

Thanks again, everyone ...

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 09:15:31 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Software reviewer picked
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:15:08 -0500
Message-ID: <9612151715.AA10466@water.waterw.com>
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Albert wrote,>

>It was hard, because they all seemed so talented and able to do the review, but
>after narrowing the field to two, I called both studios to make sure they were
>running Windows95 (because one of the programs will run *only on that operating
>system).  Both of them were, so that didn't help.  So I just closed my eyes
>tight and picked pj Friend out in California.
>
Albert,

Thanks for the chance to do the review for you.  

I wish I was in California. <BS> I am in New Jersey...where it rains as much
as it does in California.


my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 09:27:54 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:27:28 -0500
Message-ID: <9612151727.AA10923@water.waterw.com>
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ms wrote,

>
>Yes for the most part, repair work is the exception. On all new work we 
>produce patterns from the full size drawings. These are cut out using 
>lead pattern shears. In the scheme of things it represents about 5-10% 
>of production time. The other exception to this is a geometric panel 
>where working from dimensions with a 1/32 allowance for each came heart 
>is more accurate, producing a much cleaner panel ( in some cases we 
>will still produce patterns for areas of art i.e. flowers or vines or 
>medalions.)
>
>ms,

In one of your previous emails you mentioned you work for a large studio in
a metro area.  Care to mention the studio?

I guess when you work in a production studio where one comission may be
created by at least three or four craftsmen pattern cutting would be
benificial.  Allowing access to the original by all of the craftsmen.  

As for the rest who cut patterns, it is all a matter of personal preference.
We do a large number of commissions a week and pattern cutting is just
something we don't find a need for.  And have been able to cut sheets of
glass without any waste!

my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 11:54:54 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;@compuserve,.com
Subject: Corrections to Memo:1213
Date: 15 Dec 96 14:48:34 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec15.194834.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Two items in the most recent IGGA Online News Memo (12/13/96) were expanded 
upon or corrected:

   1. Henry Halem's book isn't about glassblowing techniques, as our
      comments might have indicated; it's about building glassblowing
      studios.

   2. Harold Eberhart's lampworking classes are intended for artistic
      applications; the five-week workshops meet on Tuesday and Thursday
      afternoons, are 30 hours in length and include all materials.

Updated versions in their entirety have been posted to 
http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/m121396.htm  which can also
be accessed by clicking on the IGGA Online News Memo button
on the home page at http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga

I've got to stop writing these memos 
at 4:30 in the morning ... or I have to 
at least have had a cup of coffee first.

 Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 17:35:01 1996
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From: "John C. Feltham" <cardman@sprintmail.com>
To: Stainglass <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Test of software
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 20:40:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec15.124010.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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We would like to test your software.  We are beginners and will be 
able to give you that perspective.
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 18:02:45 1996
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From: "John C. Feltham" <cardman@sprintmail.com>
To: Stainglass <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Test of software
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 1996 20:40:10 -0800
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We would like to test your software.  We are beginners and will be 
able to give you that perspective.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 19:42:34 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Software reviewer picked
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:06:47 +0000
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From:          artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Software reviewer picked
Date:          Sun, 15 Dec 1996 12:15:08 -0500
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

Albert wrote,>

>It was hard, because they all seemed so talented and able to do the review, but
>after narrowing the field to two, I called both studios to make sure they were
>running Windows95 (because one of the programs will run *only on that operating
>system).  Both of them were, so that didn't help.  So I just closed my eyes
>tight and picked pj Friend out in California.
>
Albert,

Thanks for the chance to do the review for you.  

I wish I was in California. <BS> I am in New Jersey...where it rains as much
as it does in California.


my best,
pj

----

PJ
GREAT! Hope very much you give it the works, because I would love to 
find out!!
Thank you also for your e-mail direct to me. Will respond!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 19:42:35 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Mike's lamp - and Christmas...
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:06:46 +0000
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< Michael Smoucha wrote:
Well put Elisabeth. I think you have covered many of the points that 
need be considered when pricing a project. As the patriarch of our 
studio had said when asked how long it took him to paint a piece priced 
at $3000 , "Oh about 40 years". Experience and paying your dues is what 
it is all about in the art buisness,(and also in most other skilled 
professions.) Lets not undersell our skills. It is very easy to 
underestimate the level of your own experience and knowledge, and 
therefor underprice your work. 

ms
----
" Oh about 40 yearss...." I think you know exactly how you my mind 
"blew" at that. But YES, you are right...
 In inviting YOU from "Across the Pond" to join me on this trip to 
Chartres in France next Easter, I have made the first tentative step 
towards something else I am beginning to feel is going to be very 
important to my own vision of stained glass. 
I am a trained academic, I have spent a larrge proportion of my life 
as what they call a "jet-setter". Stained Glass just has got my 
"guts". I earn my "bread" by it nowadays (not much butter and only occasionally 
jam - but I ain't letting go!!).
There is a kind of a "certainty" in me that just knows that in the 
not too distant future I will be able to make it "Across the Pond"; I 
will be able to share with   many of you what I have learnt, and 
learn from YOU. The proposed and   actually HAPPENING of Chartres 
(that started off as a "pipe-dream") convinces me .

When I get Across the Pond, (and no longer IF) I will feel immensely 
honoured, priveleged and  tremendeously excited at the possible chance 
of meeting up with people like you, who take such immense pride and 
joy in real craftsmanship and to work alongside so many of you for a 
little time-window in our lives.
My mind occasionally freaks out at the thought of JUST hoow much we 
could share with each other....

The year is drawing to an end here; I am also the "provider" and the 
main creator of Christmas and the Christmas spirit in my "space".  I 
have had a very exciting year , very rich, one full of "new 
directions".. For a little while I need to get going with 
practicalities, nurturing the people inside my space here.
Thank you ALL for a FABULOUS and very enriching year; please look 
after one another. To me as a Swede, I am approaching the "longest 
night"; Winter Equinox.   ... I can't WAIT for more LIGHT....

I have still a number of  people to reply to,. I haven't forgotten.
To cope, I might have to "unsubscribe". Come New Year you will 
probably all get a silly message from me , totally "affluenced by 
incohol".
In the Meantime, I wish each and every one of you a wonderful 
Christmas!!  Most of all, just feel the Christmas Spirit - it doesn't 
really need money....
Elisabeth 'n - of course Toby..... and my thoughts with all of you.
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 19:42:38 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
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I - who made the original question about "demarcation lines", noted 
Albert' comments. They were thought provokers, a line of thought, but 
- nevertheless - not ideas that I feel "sits" quite right  in the 
overall concept of things. If I didn't know Albert better, I would almost 
have taken offense by his comments, because I felt there was a 
certain portion of "flippancy" and "non-thought" into  what came out. 
Luckily  I know perfectly well that this would be the very last thing 
on his mind.
However, what DOES come out of the the exchanges is the diverse ideas 
of what constitutes "hand-made" artistic craftsmanship and  what 
slips under the covers undetected as being  defined as "hand-made".
I was not making a categorical statement, only a thought provoker,, a 
question and exposing  my own uncertainties about what it  is or what is 
not........
I must confess however, that I do have a problem with looking at a 
mass-produced DIY Store's melamine reproduction of some historic 
piece of furniture..  I suppose that - like everything else in life - 
you get what you pay for. You either get a plastic "stained glass 
effect lamp" at your local DIY shop, or you buy Taiwanese imports, or 
 you go to the "mass-production factories". Each of them have 
different price tags. That's fair enough. I have no argument with 
that.  But when is an object "hand-made", and when is it no longer so 
?? Where are the demarcation lines...??
In UK we have something called the "Trades Description Act" It's a 
law, which causes much confusion and  legal suits.
The definition "hand-made" is a bomb waiting to explode...
That's all.
Elisabeth 'n Toby

Good point Albert. If a human is weilding the machine how can it be 
machine made? I have had some instance to deal with machine bevelers 
who actually do use cad/cam to cut glass. This technology is still 
restricted to simple straight cuts. anything with curves or complex 
cuts are still handed off to the humans. Then there are the water jet 
cutters. These can cut any shape you can concieve right out of the 
heart of your stock. Luckily these are still prohibitivly expensive, 
and will probably remain so for all but the must repetitive of task 
(one we humans probably don't mind passing on.)

ms
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As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 15 19:42:39 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 04:06:47 +0000
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PJ Friend,
Thanks for your input.
Succinctly put.
My own stained glass studio is very small, it lacks very many 
"gadgets" that you "Across the Pond" have got. However, we don't cut 
patterns, we cut glass!!
I have work on my books taking me through until Winter 1997. I am 
waiting for ONE quote to be confirmed that will keep me occupied 
until Year 2000. I employ "occasional labour", but that's all. 
Efficiency, accuracy and speed - for me - is therrefore of essence.
Your input was very valueable.
Thank you
Elisabeth 'n Toby

I guess when you work in a production studio where one comission may be
created by at least three or four craftsmen pattern cutting would be
benificial.  Allowing access to the original by all of the craftsmen.  

As for the rest who cut patterns, it is all a matter of personal preference.
We do a large number of commissions a week and pattern cutting is just
something we don't find a need for.  And have been able to cut sheets of
glass without any waste!

my best,
pj

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http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 00:28:52 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipment
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:12:52 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.101252.0>
References: <<199612130129.BAA20564@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> There is another interesting demarcation-line; at what point  is a
> hand made artefact no longer "hand-made"...??? And where and how does
> "mechanization" fit into something which is supposed to be
> "hand-made"?? A good example of this problem, you will find in the
> furniture industry, e.g. mass-produced, manufactured reproductions
> versus hand-made, hand-crafted copies(e.g. where no modern nails or
> screws are used, but the original methods are faithfully re-produced,
> and so on).
> 
> I know myself that there must be a demarcation line, but I don't know
> how and where to draw it, how to judge it. All I know is that I
> constantly question new "innovations" in the light of whether it's
> "true" to what it is that my art/craft is all about.
> 
> I have probably only "muddied the waters" yet further. Hopefully
> you'll get the drift..
> Elsabeth 'n Toby
> 
> P.S. Martin, you ONLY use COFFEE!!!!
> ----
Hello Elisabeth,
I most humbly apologize for my unthoughtfull remarks. Especially after
reading about your experiences in the glass-buiseness i realize i have a
few more years to go before i have a right to make remarks about the use
of equipment.

However i do have some ideas about your "demarcation-line":
the word "handmade" is a quality-word: saying something is handmade
nowadays means that it is unique, not a mass-product. Really good
hand-made work (Mike's Lamp, the panels on your home-page) has a kind of
artistic look. The dimensions, the use of colour and texture, the little
irregularities, it all shows THOUGHT and human genious. And after a
while an artist develops a "Style". But most importantly: the making of
the object is the result of a long path starting with an idea. I do only
have to remind you on your earlier comment in wich you said that
creating a new drawing bears resemblence with bearing a child (BTW: my
wife wouldn´t agree on this..:-)).
Handmade as such stand opposite to factury-made. Factury-made art-glass
has no irregularities, is subject to economics in stead of good taste.
Also the thing in your house looks ecactly the same as the thing in the
house of your neighbours. You can decide to buy it or not, but you can´t
change it to your taste.

Conclusion: handmade in my opinion doesn´t depend on the use of
equipment, but more on the use of originality of mind. The term handmade
is not the real issue in the discussion, because the discussion is about
values, more then about techniques. I hope.

Question: what do you mean by:
> P.S. Martin, you ONLY use COFFEE!!!!
 
Greetings and admiration,
Martin Streng

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 01:28:48 1996
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From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 09:28:24 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.92824.0>
References: <<199612160341.DAA22093@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Toby wrote:

> 
> Good point Albert. If a human is weilding the machine how can it be 
> machine made? I have had some instance to deal with machine bevelers 
> who actually do use cad/cam to cut glass. This technology is still 
> restricted to simple straight cuts. anything with curves or complex 
> cuts are still handed off to the humans. Then there are the water jet 
> cutters. These can cut any shape you can concieve right out of the 
> heart of your stock. Luckily these are still prohibitivly expensive, 
> and will probably remain so for all but the must repetitive of task 
> (one we humans probably don't mind passing on.)
> 
> ms
> ----

The worry is when (not if) the price for water jet cutters etc. drop
to where factories in countries with low wages can afford them. At
the moment this technology is used only in high cost industries such
as aircraft. It is unlikely that the price for such equipment will
drop to the level where crafts people an afford them but if it does
then we will probably adopt them - abeit with poor grace.

Even without high technology, the quality of cheap imported stained
glass is becoming worryingly good. I have recently seen a lampshade
for 28 pounds with foiling and soldering to die for and door panels
with soldered joints as good or better than anything I have seen
anywhere. Fortunately the treatment of line and the selection of 
glass were not so good.

Mike Simpson.


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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 03:08:22 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Test of software
Date: 16 Dec 96 06:06:32 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.11632.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >We would like to test your software.  We are beginners and will be
   >able to give you that perspective.

Sorry, John, we announced the reviewer of the two software packages over the
weekend.  You can download demos of both packages, though, off the web and try
them out yourself.

For American Bevel's Designer, go http://www.americanbevel

For Dragonfly's software, go http://www.dfly.com


Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 03:13:59 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 06:09:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.1950.0>
References: <<1996Dec6.9741.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Phil Taylor wrote:
> 
> Hi Glass People, I am relatively new to stained glass (2yrs) and for
> awhile I was facinated by some of the  things I learned from this list
> server site.  But now it seems there is more discussion about other
> things and I am really anxious to learn more (the secrets) about stained
> glass work.  So I propose to all of you that each of us try to describe
> a technique or submit a special project and how we developed and
> completed it, once a month.  That should not be too difficult for the
> first few months and then we'll see what happens after that.  This way
> we can all learn from the trials and shortcuts of others.  Anyone in
> favor?  Lets hear from you.  Thanks "T" in Montana
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

I would like to hear some discussion on soldering techniques.  In shops
I have seen some decorative effects done with solder such as a mottled
look.  What are some of these techniques?  Also, How do you properly
finish the lead in both the came technique and the foil?
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 04:23:51 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipment
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 13:15:01 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.14151.0>
References: <<9611148506.AA850612798@ccmail.ilnk.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Elisabeth 'n Toby wrote:
> Again, in my "engineering drawings", I have also included details
> where my "strong-line" re-inforcements are to go, where my panels
> need MORE re-inforcement, and so on (because the glass pieces need to
> be adjusted to accommodate for this. Often even the entire design,
> so that a re-inforcement doesn't cut across in a disturbing or
> insensitive way, but can be "moulded" along with the design itself.

Probably you allready know this: there is lead available with a heart of
stainless steel. It bends easily with the glass, but can´t be bend "in"
or "out". It thus can replace external reinforcements. That's all i
know, i never worked with it but my teacher has. So if you would like
more info....

I use the "strange double scissors" because i was told the
lightbox-method was too difficult because the glass made it hard to
follow the exact line. Like fishing with a bow and arrow. Having read
all the mail about the subject i´m going to try this method.

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 06:36:46 1996
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From: "Edward W. Reitmann" <oddjob@calhoun.lakes.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Hand-Made
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 08:34:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.23416.0>
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Another angle on our disccussion of home-made. I would like to pass =
along a statement made to me by moving companies concerning this =
subject.

Over the past 3 years we have made several long distance location moves. =
Both times (by different companies) when given estimates for packing =
etc. I was told that the normal insurance provided for breakage/lost =
articles would not cover any of my completed stained glass items as they =
were considered home made "art" and they were one of a kind items that =
could not be replaced commercially, thus I would have to obtain a =
suplimental type insurance for those specific pieces.
I questioned this comparing my pieces to "antiques" and "museum pieces" =
that they no doubt move (that can't be replaced) but was told that this =
was their policy as there was no retail comparision for replacement.
So now we have another version. Happy Holidays to all.
Sue Reitmann
Artistry In Glass
Shorewood, MN
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 07:40:56 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass cutting/equipm
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 10:37:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.53753.0>
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Mike Simpson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 16 Dec 1996, Toby wrote:
> 
> >
> > Good point Albert. If a human is weilding the machine how can it be
> > machine made? I have had some instance to deal with machine bevelers
> > who actually do use cad/cam to cut glass. This technology is still
> > restricted to simple straight cuts. anything with curves or complex
> > cuts are still handed off to the humans. Then there are the water jet
> > cutters. These can cut any shape you can concieve right out of the
> > heart of your stock. Luckily these are still prohibitivly expensive,
> > and will probably remain so for all but the must repetitive of task
> > (one we humans probably don't mind passing on.)
> >
> > ms
> > ----
> 
> The worry is when (not if) the price for water jet cutters etc. drop
> to where factories in countries with low wages can afford them. At
> the moment this technology is used only in high cost industries such
> as aircraft. It is unlikely that the price for such equipment will
> drop to the level where crafts people an afford them but if it does
> then we will probably adopt them - abeit with poor grace.
> 
> Even without high technology, the quality of cheap imported stained
> glass is becoming worryingly good. I have recently seen a lampshade
> for 28 pounds with foiling and soldering to die for and door panels
> with soldered joints as good or better than anything I have seen
> anywhere. Fortunately the treatment of line and the selection of
> glass were not so good.
> 
> Mike Simpson.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


yeah that's the main good thing, the colors are limited. however even
though the local craftsperson can't buy one of these huge expensive
machines, they can rent it. like it read in that article at artglass.
another thing thats neat about the saw are the new products coming out.
like the lamp kits they're selling now, if you hav'nt seen the kit it
looks like what you would find when making a model. it's basically a
sheet of glass, with pieces attached to a tree, and all you have to do
is to pluck off the piece, foil and solder. i'm kinda of curious as to
where that falls in the hand-made catagory.   


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 07:48:25 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New Innovations
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 10:45:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.54527.0>
References: <<1996Dec16.1950.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

James R. Laws wrote:
> 
> Phil Taylor wrote:
> >
> > Hi Glass People, I am relatively new to stained glass (2yrs) and for
> > awhile I was facinated by some of the  things I learned from this list
> > server site.  But now it seems there is more discussion about other
> > things and I am really anxious to learn more (the secrets) about stained
> > glass work.  So I propose to all of you that each of us try to describe
> > a technique or submit a special project and how we developed and
> > completed it, once a month.  That should not be too difficult for the
> > first few months and then we'll see what happens after that.  This way
> > we can all learn from the trials and shortcuts of others.  Anyone in
> > favor?  Lets hear from you.  Thanks "T" in Montana
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> I would like to hear some discussion on soldering techniques.  In shops
> I have seen some decorative effects done with solder such as a mottled
> look.  What are some of these techniques?  Also, How do you properly
> finish the lead in both the came technique and the foil?
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp for the decorative soldering, there are quite a few books and video
tapes you can check out. there a little hard to exlplain with just
words. the vicki payne tapes should help you. 

to finish a foiled panel, i'm not quite sure of the question, i'm
assuming putting a bead on it, which is also easier to see it in person
or at least a basic visual. i usally bead on only one side of the piece
unless you can see both sides, eg., a door, some windows, etc. for
things that go on a wall, some boxes, the inside of a lamp, i don't
boother finishing it all just flat soldering. the only thing i usally
bead both sides are suncatchers.

as for finishing lead, i'm pretty sure it is finished once your done
soldering and cementing. though a friend of mine found out that JAX
patina (pewter), matches almost exactly with lead and zinc, and so the
solder matches.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 15:28:24 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: time
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 17:27:21 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612162327.RAA11628@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 12:27 PM 12/15/96 -0500, pj friend wrote:
>
>ms wrote,
>
>>
>>Yes for the most part, repair work is the exception. On all new work we 
>>produce patterns from the full size drawings. These are cut out using 
>>lead pattern shears. In the scheme of things it represents about 5-10% 
>>of production time. The other exception to this is a geometric panel 
>>where working from dimensions with a 1/32 allowance for each came heart 
>>is more accurate, producing a much cleaner panel ( in some cases we 
>>will still produce patterns for areas of art i.e. flowers or vines or 
>>medalions.)
>>
>>ms,
>
>
>I guess when you work in a production studio where one comission may be
>created by at least three or four craftsmen pattern cutting would be
>benificial.  Allowing access to the original by all of the craftsmen.  
>
>As for the rest who cut patterns, it is all a matter of personal preference.
>We do a large number of commissions a week and pattern cutting is just
>something we don't find a need for.  And have been able to cut sheets of
>glass without any waste!
>
>my best,
>pj


Your absolutely right pj, to each his/her own. What ever works. However, I
would be amazed to see glass cut faster and more accurately (all else being
equal)  by any other method then against patterns even allowing for the time
it takes to cut out the pattern. Micheal S allows 5-10 percent of production
time which I think the up side is very generous. If I ever get out to N.J.
I'll race ya, loser pays for dinner. :-) 

Happy Holidays
Len

OBTW... when I rip a board I set the rip fence and guide the wood through
applying light pressure against the fence maybe I should draw a line on the
board and then try and make the blade follow the line ;-)

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 16:20:45 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Bullseye
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 19:20:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.142015.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

About cutting Bullseye, or any other tricky glass-if no one has mentioned it.
 The heat from a 100 watt blub about 3 inches above the cutting table or
light box heats it to almost to warm to touch.  Thats just the right temp, to
cut and break easy.  Works like a charm.

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 17:53:47 1996
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X-Path: idirect.com!mrum
From: mrum@idirect.com (mike & carol)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Photos
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 20:53:05 -0500
Message-ID: <199612170153.UAA02767@nemesis.idirect.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I've just finished a project (a pair of angels with a sun background), and
>am trying to figure out a good way of documenting the finished panel with
>photographs.  What tips or techniques do others use for photographing 
>their projects, showing both the way the glass normally looks and also 
>with light shining through it?
>
>Thanks!
>Scott

One of the things that has worked well for me in photographing completed
works is using a good white background.  Then light from directly above,
take a few exposures at different readings, change to light behind the
piece, more exposures and then lastly light from the front.  I have in my
very humble 'portfolio' a pair of photos of the same piece, backlit and
front lit.  Interesting differences, texture pops up, colors can fade out .
. .  Above all, make sure there are no fingerprints on the piece!

Hope this helps.

Carol
*******************************************
Mike and Carol Rumak
Mississauga, Ontario
Canada

Visit Carol's stained glass gallery at:
http://web.idirect.com/~studio
*******************************************

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 16 22:44:31 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Dec.Soldering&Finishing
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 1996 23:11:19 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec16.161119.0>
References: <<1996Dec16.1950.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

James R. Laws wrote:
>  
> I would like to hear some discussion on soldering techniques.  In shops
> I have seen some decorative effects done with solder such as a mottled
> look.  What are some of these techniques?  Also, How do you properly
> finish the lead in both the came technique and the foil?Hi James,
I'll bet you get some responses from people more experienced than I am. 
 But I'll start the discussion and see where it goes from here.
For decorative soldering, I've read descriptions that call for lots of 
flux (on a foiled piece), possibly appied with a Q-tip, applied along 
with constant feeding of the solder.  The over-fluxing causes the solder 
to bubble up and it creates a lacy effect, at least that's what happened 
in the photo I saw, which was only being done to the outside foiled 
edge.
Properly finishing lead, I'm not sure.  I know how to solder lead, 
patina lead, cement or putty lead, but have only used a finishing wax on 
the finished product.  Maybe there are others who have ideas on this 
subject.  I'm acually what this list calls a, "newbie."  T. in Montana
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 06:34:40 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Dec.Soldering&Finishing
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 09:31:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec17.43126.0>
References: <<1996Dec16.161119.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Phil Taylor wrote:
> 
> James R. Laws wrote:
> >
> > I would like to hear some discussion on soldering techniques.  In shops
> > I have seen some decorative effects done with solder such as a mottled
> > look.  What are some of these techniques?  Also, How do you properly
> > finish the lead in both the came technique and the foil?Hi James,
> I'll bet you get some responses from people more experienced than I am.
>  But I'll start the discussion and see where it goes from here.
> For decorative soldering, I've read descriptions that call for lots of
> flux (on a foiled piece), possibly appied with a Q-tip, applied along
> with constant feeding of the solder.  The over-fluxing causes the solder
> to bubble up and it creates a lacy effect, at least that's what happened
> in the photo I saw, which was only being done to the outside foiled
> edge.
> Properly finishing lead, I'm not sure.  I know how to solder lead,
> patina lead, cement or putty lead, but have only used a finishing wax on
> the finished product.  Maybe there are others who have ideas on this
> subject.  I'm acually what this list calls a, "newbie."  T. in Montana
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the overfluxing method probably would'nt be safe... it would boil and
splatter the solder everywhere and you know how much fun that it :)  .or
if that does'nt happen you'll get a normal bead, or alot of bubbles in
the solder (more like a moon surface look) which can be a little sharp
to the touch.

---Mike Savad
 
-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 14:39:57 1996
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X-Path: net-magic.net!tcn
From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Dec.Soldering
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:34:27 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec17.173427.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

To Phil Taylor
Glass Giraffe has some tapes on soldering also Huston Glass has a good selection
Good luck,
Walter
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 14:45:05 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Goooooof up
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:39:40 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec17.173940.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

Jennifer Daniels,
Sorry for that Jennifer will not do it again.  Hope you have a nice Holiday season.

Thanks ,
Walter
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 14:58:33 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Tapes
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 17:53:16 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec17.175316.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
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Phil Taylor
Forget to add Vicki Payne also has very good tapes
Walter
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 16:41:17 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Lee Boe - Chartres 97
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 01:05:33 +0000
Message-ID: <199612180041.AAA30079@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Lee Boe,
Please send me / e-mail me your snail-mail address etc.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 18:24:16 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Dec.Soldering&Finishing
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 1996 21:18:02 -0600
Message-ID: <199612180326.WAA04574@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Might want to try the Glass Giraffe presents series one of which is
soldering and soon to come others, including patina.  I as well as my
spouse have taken classes from Jeff and Karen Eckes @ GG, they are
excellent and so is the video series.  I don't have their 800 #, but their
direct line is (704) 456-6665.  They will direct you to a local supplier in
your area.

KSagy

----------
> From: M. Savad <morn@mars.superlink.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Dec.Soldering&Finishing
> Date: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 8:31 AM
> 
> Phil Taylor wrote:
> > 
> > James R. Laws wrote:
> > >
> > > I would like to hear some discussion on soldering techniques.  In
shops
> > > I have seen some decorative effects done with solder such as a
mottled
> > > look.  What are some of these techniques?  Also, How do you properly
> > > finish the lead in both the came technique and the foil?Hi James,
> > I'll bet you get some responses from people more experienced than I am.
> >  But I'll start the discussion and see where it goes from here.
> > For decorative soldering, I've read descriptions that call for lots of
> > flux (on a foiled piece), possibly appied with a Q-tip, applied along
> > with constant feeding of the solder.  The over-fluxing causes the
solder
> > to bubble up and it creates a lacy effect, at least that's what
happened
> > in the photo I saw, which was only being done to the outside foiled
> > edge.
> > Properly finishing lead, I'm not sure.  I know how to solder lead,
> > patina lead, cement or putty lead, but have only used a finishing wax
on
> > the finished product.  Maybe there are others who have ideas on this
> > subject.  I'm acually what this list calls a, "newbie."  T. in Montana
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> 
> the overfluxing method probably would'nt be safe... it would boil and
> splatter the solder everywhere and you know how much fun that it :)  .or
> if that does'nt happen you'll get a normal bead, or alot of bubbles in
> the solder (more like a moon surface look) which can be a little sharp
> to the touch.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
>  
> -- 
> Mike's Stained Glass
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
> you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.
> 
> 
> Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 17 21:13:42 1996
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X-Path: aol.com!MGPG605
From: MGPG605@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: re: Houghton Mifflin Interactive's charity campaign: not a hoax
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 00:13:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec17.19134.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I thought this was a wonderful idea and did not hesitate to e-mail them, but
a friend of mine wrote to Houghton Mifflin to make sure this was a "real
deal" and here is the reply received.
===========================

>From Winston_Chou@hmco.com Tue Dec 17 14:22:47 1996
>Date: 17 Dec 96 15:27:35 EST
>From: Winston_Chou@hmco.com
>To: ----------------
Subject: Houghton Mifflin Interactive's charity campaign: not a hoax
>
>To those who made inquiries to the webmaster mailbox:
>
>Thanks for inquiring about the charity campaign involving book donations to 
>children's hospitals.  The campaign is The Polar Express Share the Spirit 
>campaign, and it is a legitimate internet-based charity event that benefits 
>hospitalized children who can't be home for the holidays. The campaign is 
>sponsored by Houghton Mifflin Interactive (www.hminet.com), a subsidiary of 
>Houghton Mifflin Company.  
>
>The goal of the campaign, to reach 50,000 messages by December 31, was
>achieved on December 10, so we are no longer accepting e-mails to
share@hmco.com. 
>Any messages sent to that address will not be received by the campaign.
However, 
>the campaign is not over as we are still accepting and posting messages sent

>via The Polar Express Share the Spirit web site
>(http://www.polarexpress.com).  
>In addition, because we reached our goal so early, we'll be donating an 
>additional 500 books to children's hospitals. 
>
>The campaign - inspired by the Chris Van Allsburg book of the same name - 
>invites internet users to share 
>their holiday stories and memories by posting a message on the campaign's
web
>site. You can share a favorite 
>holiday memory or tradition or just send a greeting to fellow participants, 
>then revisit the site in a day or 
>two to see your message on the Share the Spirit message board.  How the book

>donation worked: for every 25 
>messages received by the campaign, HMI donated a copy of Chris Van
Allsburg's
>The Polar Express, Two Bad Ants, 
>or Ben's Dream to a children's hospital or similar institution.
>
>Thanks again for your interest, and I hope you'll participate! 
>
>Yuka Sugiura
>Houghton Mifflin Interactive
>http://www.hminet.com  

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 06:46:40 1996
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From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: re: Decorative Soldering
Date: 18 Dec 96 09:42:20 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec18.144220.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You might want to get a copy of the book "Decorative Soldering for Stained
Glass, Jewelry, and Other Crafts" by Trudy Thomas.  It covers techniques such as
bridging, wheat, shells, bamboo, pearls, wrap, cascade, herringbone, hammered
and scallops.  I found it very instructive, and it's only $6.95 retail.  Have
your stained glass retailer order it for you if they do not have it in stock.
...Christie

----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 08:30:59 1996
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From: Richard davis Ashoff <ab@americanbevel.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Houghton Mifflin Interactive's charity campaign: not a hoax
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:32:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec18.03213.0>
References: <<1996Dec17.19134.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: American Bevel, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

MGPG605@aol.com wrote:

Thank you for this e-mail.

I was beginning to feel pretty bad that I e-mailed everyone.

You have a Merry Christmas.

B. Rgds,

Richard Ashoff
American Bevel, Inc.
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 08:39:32 1996
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From: Richard davis Ashoff <ab@americanbevel.com>
To: stglmys@proaxis.com, tabonga@iwaynet.net,
Subject: Re: Houghton Mifflin Interactive's charity campaign: not a hoax
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 08:38:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec18.03813.0>
References: <<1996Dec17.19134.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: American Bevel, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

I thought this was a wonderful idea and did not hesitate to e-mail them,
but a friend of mine wrote to Houghton Mifflin to make sure this was a
"real deal" and here is the reply received.
 ===========================

Subject: Houghton Mifflin Interactive's charity campaign: not a hoax

To those who made inquiries to the webmaster mailbox:

Thanks for inquiring about the charity campaign involving book donations
to children's hospitals.  The campaign is The Polar Express Share the
Spirit campaign, and it is a legitimate internet-based charity event
that benefits hospitalized children who can't be home for the holidays.
The campaign is sponsored by Houghton Mifflin Interactive
(www.hminet.com), a subsidiary of Houghton Mifflin Company.

The goal of the campaign, to reach 50,000 messages by December 31, was
achieved on December 10, so we are no longer accepting e-mails to
share@hmco.com. Any messages sent to that address will not be received
by the campaign.

However, the campaign is not over as we are still accepting and posting
messages sent via The Polar Express Share the Spirit web site
(http://www.polarexpress.com). In addition, because we reached our goal
so early, we'll be donating an additional 500 books to children's
hospitals.

The campaign - inspired by the Chris Van Allsburg book of the same name
-invites internet users to share their holiday stories and memories by
posting a message on the campaign's web site. You can share a favorite
holiday memory or tradition or just send a greeting to fellow
participants, then revisit the site in a day or two to see your message
on the Share the Spirit message board.  How the book donation worked:
for every 25 messages received by the campaign, HMI donated a copy of
Chris Van Allsburg's The Polar Express, Two Bad Ants, or Ben's Dream to
a children's hospital or similar institution.

Thanks again for your interest, and I hope you'll participate!

Yuka Sugiura
Houghton Mifflin Interactive
http://www.hminet.com
----
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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 10:23:25 1996
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pricing and labor time
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 18:12:02 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec18.18122.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 01:43 PM 12/12/96 +0000, you wrote:
>just
>> never worked for me. though i'm still open to ideas, i'm still trying to
>> figure out a good pricing method.
>> 
>> ---Mike Savad
>> 
>> --
>> Mike's Stained Glass
>
>
>I agree about the square foot pricing method.  It feels unnatural to me. 
> I do the per piece method, but I time every project I do, so when I go 
>into a project, I know from past experience how long every thing takes, 
>and can adjust my per piece price once in a while.

>In a studio, how long would it take you all to do a project with 40 
>hours in it?  I have customers to wait on in between, and paperwork to 
>do, and running to pick up supplies, so I estimated it taking 6 weeks, 
>but just wondered how fast everyone else gets things out and delivered.
>
>Garden of Glass
>Joyce Moran


This is an interesting discussion on pricing, here's my comments:

I also use a "per sq ft" approach to bidding, but I try to attach it to a
good hourly rate.  Typical labor rates in the Midwest start at about $35 per
hour.  On an average we might see $45-50 per hour while $75 per hour might
be max for a well established studio with a good reputation.  When I bid
things out by the sq ft, I also try to relate to my customer that there is a
variance in my "per sq ft" estimate based upon the number of pieces per sq
ft that I can see in the pattern.  For example, if I'm looking at a pattern
that may have (on average) 2-3 pieces per sq ft, my bid might be $60-70 per
sq ft for the work, if I'm looking at a pattern with 8-10 pieces per sq ft,
then my bid should be about $90-95 per sq ft.  If the pattern has bevels and
brass, then my bid jumps to maybe $110-120 per sq ft.  On average, then, I
think my work tends to be in the $70-90 per sq ft range, and that is
sufficient to support a shop with two employees, plus myself.  
Regarding Mike Savad's lamp, well, frankly we're so busy that we don't have
the luxury of time to pursue such an undertaking unless we have a customer
in place beforehand.  In such a case, I'd have to consider how much it would
cost me to put an artist on it full time and how long it would take that
artist to complete it.  Then, I need to consider what other projects we
would have to pass on in order to take on this lamp (opportunity cost!).
And, the customer would have to be willing to cover it all.  So, if I know
that my studio needs to do about $850 in sales per day to pay for everything
(breakeven), and there are three of us doing the commission work, then
that's about $285 per day for one artist (or $35 per hr). So, if you figure
200 hrs for Mike's lamp, that's $7080 bucks.  But, remember, this all
assumes that a customer is already in place for the lamp so it would turn
over immediately.  If I am making something for my showroom, I need to add
another 15-20% in order to carry it in inventory for a while.  

This same approach works when bidding out a very large commercial project
where two or three of us may be working on different pieces of the project
at the same time.  I figure a minimum of $285 per day (per artist) in the
bid and factor in any rented equipment or other expenses outside of our
daily routine.  If we are busy on other things when the project comes up and
the customer wants us to put anything aside, then you have to figure in the
any potential lost business, and charge a premium for our time to cover it. 

Also, I can fully relate to your scenario of trying to bid something out
with about 40 hrs work in it when you know you'll only have 3-4 hrs of your
day to actually work on it.  All you can do is bid it out with at 40 hrs of
time, but be realistic with the customer when negotiating delivery time, if
the customer wants it sooner, then you have to charge a premium.  Typically,
I spend about 60-70% of my time on things that I consider are
administrative, daily business or building business.  The remaining 30-40%
is actually studio time, AND my artists do 8 hrs per day while I do about
12-14 hrs per day. 

Please don't look at us as a sweat shop.  I think we are simply a group of
people that has found a way to make a living working in stained glass.  We
never try to make a lot of money off of anyone, rather, we try to make a
little money off of everyone.  If you provide a good product at a fair
price, people will come back and they'll tell others.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 20:20:52 1996
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From: Steve Schaefer <staingls@dwave.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: UNSUSCRIBE
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 22:19:00 -0600
Message-ID: <199612190419.WAA16287@home.dwave.net>
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Please remove me from the mail list.

Thanks.

Steve


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From owner-glass Wed Dec 18 23:04:40 1996
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From: kmccullo@direct.ca (karin mcculloch)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Xmas
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 23:05:57 -0800
Message-ID: <199612190704.XAA10165@aphex.direct.ca>
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I haven't been here for a while, infact the last I recall I was begging for
some of the southern heat. Guess what, I still am. Could have used some of
that sheep's wool now. Snowed mid November & it's been down hill from there.
Suppose to get more snow this weekend, and it should be our first white
Christmas in 30 years. Yahoo !!  

Anyhow, I would just like to wish each and everyone of you a very MERRY
CHRISTMAS and a joyous NEW YEAR. As my professional job will end Dec. 31 I
look forward to more sharing of glass info. I have throughly enjoyed this
past year, being able to share info with all you wonderful, funny (sometimes
cranky) folks. All the best to the folks providing this site for the rest of
us to share and keeping us inline (online). Keep up the good work!    

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 05:09:00 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 08:08:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec20.3858.0>
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Hi gang,

 recently came across a piece of glass (sorry don't know the manufacturer 
until I ask my supplier) that just won't break smoothly. I heated it up on 
the kerosene heater just like I do the rest of my projects and it acted 
like it was frozen. Would't take a score will and broke even worse. But I 
cut other glass before and after with no problems under the same 
conditions, same heat, same glass cutter, etc. It's just an ordinary 
looking piece of glass, green, white and caramel swirls. Anybody ever had a 
piece the just wouldn't cooperate?

Linda Campbell
I don't speak for Metro Machine not they for me. 

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 06:33:07 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Need Moretti Glass Immediately!
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 96 09:31:07 -0500
Message-ID: <9612200931.AA23238@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<1996Dec20.3858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Hi everyone!

Late in my Christmas shopping as usual. I wanted to get my wife the Moretti
glass rod sample pack (one of each of their colors). Unfortunately, I waited
too long. I was going to get this from Frantz Bead Company, which apparently is
closed for a few days. Anyone know another place which might have this, and
which could do a rush order? 

Also, the book "Contemporary Lampworking" by Bandhu Scott Dunham? Or
recommendations for another book appropriate for beginners?

I know this is a mostly stained-glass list, but I can't post to newsgoups right
now, and I expect there is some crossover.


-- David C.
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 06:43:42 1996
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From: gshultz@mail.smu.edu (Gary Shultz)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 08:41:49 -0600
Message-ID: <v01530501aee05598ee3d@[129.119.37.12]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Seems like I have come across this problem once or twice and it usually
involved multi-colored glass with quite a bit of white in it. As I recall,
I could get it to score but it was extremely brittle to break. As a result,
had to rethink patterns and do a lot of nibbling and grinding.

=Gary

>Hi gang,
>
> recently came across a piece of glass (sorry don't know the manufacturer
>until I ask my supplier) that just won't break smoothly. I heated it up on
>the kerosene heater just like I do the rest of my projects and it acted
>like it was frozen. Would't take a score will and broke even worse. But I
>cut other glass before and after with no problems under the same
>conditions, same heat, same glass cutter, etc. It's just an ordinary
>looking piece of glass, green, white and caramel swirls. Anybody ever had a
>piece the just wouldn't cooperate?
>
>Linda Campbell
>I don't speak for Metro Machine not they for me.
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


      ~(~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)~
    ~~~) Gary Shultz - SMU News and Information (~~~
  ~~~~~( Tele. 214-768-7665   Fax: 214-768-7663 )~~~~~
~~~~~~~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~~


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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 06:49:02 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:45:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec20.4458.0>
References: <<1996Dec20.3858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Hi gang,
> 
>  recently came across a piece of glass (sorry don't know the manufacturer
> until I ask my supplier) that just won't break smoothly. I heated it up on
> the kerosene heater just like I do the rest of my projects and it acted
> like it was frozen. Would't take a score will and broke even worse. But I
> cut other glass before and after with no problems under the same
> conditions, same heat, same glass cutter, etc. It's just an ordinary
> looking piece of glass, green, white and caramel swirls. Anybody ever had a
> piece the just wouldn't cooperate?
> 
> Linda Campbell
> I don't speak for Metro Machine not they for me.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well first can you explain any other characterisics of the glass, the
texture on the back, or the surface marks. the color sonds like kokomo
but that glass usally cuts pretty well, except for a few colors which
does'nt take a score to well. i do know wismach does'nt take a score at
all well, but may break where you want it to. usally when i cut
wissmach, just to be safe i'll put a little extra pressure on the glass,
the kind of pressure that would normal may soft glass chip. this kind of
score you at least know it did something to the glass.  if it was a more
exotic glass i really don't know. but it does'nt sound like Antique,
because that's mostly clears (and not opaques). but if you can explain
the glass it self in textures, like for example wissmach and armstrong
will almost always has a rough back, (except in the clear colors where
it's a little smoother). wissmach has less texture than armstrong. the
opalesent texture makes a big difference too. if the swirls are light
and whispy it's generally spectrum, if there tight, but more streaky
it's probably armstrong. if the swirls are less defined but there are #1
some darker streaks in the front of the glass (tiny, thin), and #2 the
back of the glass is wildly swirly (and can be used as a seperate glass
by it self, which i often use despite the texture), it's most likley
wissmach. alot of the otyer colors are a little harder to I.D., you
would have to know about what colors, or mottles each company used, and
that's alot harder to explain, the other way a glass can be I.D.'d is by
it's irridesents.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 09:23:58 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 09:20:17 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Dec20.12017.0>
References: <<1996Dec20.3858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Linda:  Sometimes the glass won't take a score but it will nevertheless
break on the score line.  Some "curious" glass with multicolors will break
where the the two or more colors come together in spite of how careful you
are.  This may all be part of experience in recognizing how different
glass breaks...that is important to learn.  If you have a glass saw, this
glass sounds like a perfect candidate to use for getting it cut.  Do you
know who manufactured the glass?  PJ from CA.

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 20:13:56 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Glass books
Date: 20 Dec 96 17:54:56 EST
Message-ID: <961220225456_70544.3642_JHD85-1@CompuServe.COM>
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   >Also, the book "Contemporary Lampworking" by Bandhu Scott Dunham? Or
   >recommendations for another book appropriate for beginners?

Dunham's book can be ordered at his 
web site:

   http://www.ro.com/av/clientdata/cl1008.htm

Since his book is about lampworking, I guess you mean other books appropriate 
for beginning lampworkers?

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 20:14:31 1996
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From: Rod Dagenais <dagenais@limestone.kosone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Need Moretti Glass Immediately!
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 17:42:56 -0500
Message-ID: <32BB1670.78A1@limestone.kosone.com>
References: <<9612200931.AA23238@LL.MIT.EDU>>
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Organization: Mystic Glass
Precedence: bulk

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone!
> 
> Late in my Christmas shopping as usual. I wanted to get my wife the Moretti
> glass rod sample pack (one of each of their colors). Unfortunately, I waited
> too long. I was going to get this from Frantz Bead Company, which apparently is
> closed for a few days. Anyone know another place which might have this, and
> which could do a rush order?
> 
> Also, the book "Contemporary Lampworking" by Bandhu Scott Dunham? Or
> recommendations for another book appropriate for beginners?
> 
> I know this is a mostly stained-glass list, but I can't post to newsgoups right
> now, and I expect there is some crossover.
> 
> -- David C.

Try Delphi at 1-800-248-2048


> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 20:17:40 1996
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From: Richard davis Ashoff <ab@americanbevel.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Need Moretti Glass Immediately!
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 10:30:34 -0800
Message-ID: <32BADB4A.6458@americanbevel.com>
References: <<9612200931.AA23238@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: American Bevel, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone!
> 
> Late in my Christmas shopping as usual. I wanted to get my wife the Moretti
> glass rod sample pack (one of each of their colors). Unfortunately, I waited
> too long. I was going to get this from Frantz Bead Company, which apparently is
> closed for a few days. Anyone know another place which might have this, and
> which could do a rush order?
> 
> Also, the book "Contemporary Lampworking" by Bandhu Scott Dunham? Or
> recommendations for another book appropriate for beginners?
> 
> I know this is a mostly stained-glass list, but I can't post to newsgoups right
> now, and I expect there is some crossover.
> 
> -- David C.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
Dave: 

You might try Northwest Art Glass, 800.888.9444; or 206.861.9600. They
carry Moretti Glass.
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 20:27:12 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Need Moretti Glass Immediately!
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:29:55 -0500
Message-ID: <9612201929.AA01144@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

David wrote
,>
>Hi everyone!
>
>Late in my Christmas shopping as usual. I wanted to get my wife the Moretti
>glass rod sample pack (one of each of their colors). Unfortunately, I waited
>too long. I was going to get this from Frantz Bead Company, which apparently is
>closed for a few days. Anyone know another place which might have this, and
>which could do a rush order? 
>
>Also, the book "Contemporary Lampworking" by Bandhu Scott Dunham? Or
>recommendations for another book appropriate for beginners?
>
>I know this is a mostly stained-glass list, but I can't post to newsgoups right
>now, and I expect there is some crossover.
>
>David,
Try Wale Apparatus Co.
610.838.7047 or fax 610.838.7440.

They are in Hellertown, PA.  Hope they can help you....you should sent what
I got from them for Christmas!!!! I just can't wait.

my best,
pj>

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From owner-glass Fri Dec 20 20:27:47 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 1996 14:33:20 -0500
Message-ID: <9612201933.AA01315@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>\Linda wrote,
>
>>Hi gang,
>>
>> recently came across a piece of glass (sorry don't know the manufacturer
>>until I ask my supplier) that just won't break smoothly. I heated it up on
>>the kerosene heater just like I do the rest of my projects and it acted
>>like it was frozen. Would't take a score will and broke even worse. But I
>>cut other glass before and after with no problems under the same
>>conditions, same heat, same glass cutter, etc. It's just an ordinary
>>looking piece of glass, green, white and caramel swirls. Anybody ever had a
>>piece the just wouldn't cooperate?
>>
>>Linda Campbell
>>I don't speak for Metro Machine not they for me.
>>
Linda,

You should have been around when Wheaton Glass manufactured stained
glass..............what a lesson. 
.  What type of cutter are you using would be my first question.

my best,
pj
>

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 01:34:40 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: English Ivy Pattern
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 96 17:19:06 PST
Message-ID: <MAPI.Id.0016.0067706c756773203030303730303037@MAPI.to.RFC822>
References: <<1996Dec20.4458.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Looking for an english ivy pattern to make panels on either side of 
an entrance door. 


April (zone 6)                                                *****  Home=
stead-Work@esosoft.com ****
Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass  *** A mailing list for self employe=
d***
vgplugs@primeline.com                                           **  Homes=
teaders **






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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 01:35:42 1996
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From: Roseanne Campbell <knowitall@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Excellence
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 1996 19:55:54 +0000
Message-ID: <19961221195552.AAA22933@LOCALNAME>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 06:12 PM 12/18/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>
>----
Hi Mike,

Awhile back, I was looking for someone to make an oval frame for a window I
was making.  You wrote to me off-line saying your company did such work.
You didn't want anyone to think you were using the group for advertising
purposes.  I decided to give your company a try and was very pleased with
the results.  The frame fit perfectly and looked great.  You went beyond the
call of duty and sent the frame packed in foam and bubble-wrap perfect for
shipping my completed project.

If anyone at glass@bungi needs a frame for a special project, I highly
recommend Mike's company.

To everyone else who tried to come to my aid with my framing problems, also
a big thank you.

Merry Christmas to Mike and everyone at glass@bungi.

Roseanne


----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 07:01:14 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: English Ivy Pattern
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 09:56:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec22.45656.0>
References: <<MAPI.Id.0016.0067706c756773203030303730303037@MAPI.to.RFC822>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

April Paine wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Looking for an english ivy pattern to make panels on either side of
> an entrance door.
> 
> April (zone 6)                                                *****  Home=
> stead-Work@esosoft.com ****
> Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass  *** A mailing list for self employe=
> d***
> vgplugs@primeline.com                                           **  Homes=
> teaders **
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i think glass patterns quarterly once had a ivy pattern.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 13:30:18 1996
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From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Excellence
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 13:29:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199612222129.NAA10099@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>Hi Mike,
>Awhile back, I was looking for someone to make an oval frame for a window I
>was making.  You wrote to me off-line saying your company did such work.
>You didn't want anyone to think you were using the group for advertising
>purposes.  I decided to give your company a try and was very pleased with
>the results.  The frame fit perfectly and looked great.  You went beyond the
>call of duty and sent the frame packed in foam and bubble-wrap perfect for
>shipping my completed project.
>If anyone at glass@bungi needs a frame for a special project, I highly
>recommend Mike's company.
>To everyone else who tried to come to my aid with my framing problems, also
>a big thank you.
>Merry Christmas to Mike and everyone at glass@bungi.
>Roseanne

Since there are several Mike's on this line, could you be more specific as
which one and what company and how to get in touch with him?  Finding custom
made oval or round frames would be wonderful.

Thanks, and everyone have a Merry Christmas and a safe and sane holiday season.
Sherry

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 13:39:05 1996
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Back From Holidays
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 13:38:11 PST
Message-ID: <m0vbvb2-00012BC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hi everyone,

I'm back from the Virgin Islands,...truly a paradise!
I would like to wish everyone a Happy Holiday season.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 17:27:08 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: English Ivy Pattern
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:25:18 -0500
Message-ID: <199612230125.UAA19981@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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        April,
         I have a couple of ivy stencil patterns that could be adapted for
stained glass.  I could fax or mail them to you but there'll be a delay
since I'm leaving tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. and won't be back until Dec.
31.  If you are in a tearing hurry, e-mail me tonight before 11:00 p.m EST.
I'll try to get back to you.  
        Jennifer

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 17:43:02 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: English Ivy Pattern
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 20:47:19 PST
Message-ID: <1996Dec23.44719.0>
References: <<199612230125.UAA19981@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hello,

Fax is 704 4523553 it's an internal modem. I'll wait for the ring before =
I" switch
functions may take twice. Sure do appreciate it.  



April (zone 6)
vgplugs@primeline.com
Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass


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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 19:02:07 1996
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From: shyguy <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:59:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec22.165914.0>
References: <<1996Dec20.12017.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

IMHO, some glass cuts bettter with different cutters. When I first took
classes, my instructor told me that the different manufacturers made
various angles on the V on the cutter wheels, some narrower, some wider.
I use both Fletcher and Toyo cutters, and I like like the Toyo for most
cuts, but on some glass, the Fletcher makes a better score. Just like
life, glass cutting sometimes needs a different approach. If your local
studio craftsman uses different cutters, see if you can bring a sample
of glass and try a variety of brands
----
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 20:07:43 1996
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X-Path: montana.com!chip3
From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Terrific Holiday!
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:31:46 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec22.133146.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

Thanks to everyone for help when I needed it, for providing informative 
and friendly forums, and most of all for accepting a "newbie".  Hope you 
all have a fun and warm Christmas, and that 1977 will bring you good 
times.  Be well -- T. in Montana
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 20:15:12 1996
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X-Path: sympatico.ca!taylor_buckner
From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Eng. Ivy
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:12:08 -0500
Message-ID: <199612230412.XAA00439@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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        April,
        I got your message, called the fax no. twice, let it ring 10 times
each try, and then had to give up.  I'm sorry.  If you send me your snail
mail address I'll mail the material as soon as I return.   Jennifer

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 22 20:25:07 1996
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From: "Blue Dog" <dave@main.citynet.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Terrific Holiday!
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 23:22:50 -0500
Message-ID: <199612230425.XAA11923@main.citynet.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I'm what you call a super-lurker, but I had to jump
in here for this one!

> all have a fun and warm Christmas, and that 1977 will bring you good 
                                              ^^^^

It did.  8^)



Dave Dickens
aka Blue Dog
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 23 03:25:37 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Eng. Ivy
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 96 06:29:07 PST
Message-ID: <1996Dec23.14297.0>
References: <<199612230412.XAA00439@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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HI,

Sorry I thought I'd missed you and went to bed.  


Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
337 Underwood Road
Waynesville, NC 28786


April
vgplugs@primeline.com
In The Smoky Mountains, Zone 6

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 23 06:48:14 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some Glass is Not Friendly
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:44:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec23.44411.0>
References: <<1996Dec22.165914.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

shyguy wrote:
> 
> IMHO, some glass cuts bettter with different cutters. When I first took
> classes, my instructor told me that the different manufacturers made
> various angles on the V on the cutter wheels, some narrower, some wider.
> I use both Fletcher and Toyo cutters, and I like like the Toyo for most
> cuts, but on some glass, the Fletcher makes a better score. Just like
> life, glass cutting sometimes needs a different approach. If your local
> studio craftsman uses different cutters, see if you can bring a sample
> of glass and try a variety of brands
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

yeah, i think it's pretty neat that a couple of degrees would make such
a big differnce. for example i accidently bought a fletcher cutter head
with a yellow ring. apperntly it's meant for cutting thin hard glass, it
scores alomst any kind of glass perfectly, but it does'nt break at all
well. the one with the green ring, is designed for colored regular
glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 23 07:53:32 1996
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Excellence
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 15:53:02 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec23.15532.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Roseanne,

I'm glad to hear it fit ...... and thanks for the nice plug on bungi!  

Merry Christmas to you, Roseanne, and to all on bungi! 

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass



At 07:55 PM 12/21/96 +0000, you wrote:
>At 06:12 PM 12/18/1996 +0000, you wrote:
>>
>>----
>Hi Mike,
>
>Awhile back, I was looking for someone to make an oval frame for a window I
>was making.  You wrote to me off-line saying your company did such work.
>You didn't want anyone to think you were using the group for advertising
>purposes.  I decided to give your company a try and was very pleased with
>the results.  The frame fit perfectly and looked great.  You went beyond the
>call of duty and sent the frame packed in foam and bubble-wrap perfect for
>shipping my completed project.
>
>If anyone at glass@bungi needs a frame for a special project, I highly
>recommend Mike's company.
>
>To everyone else who tried to come to my aid with my framing problems, also
>a big thank you.
>
>Merry Christmas to Mike and everyone at glass@bungi.
>
>Roseanne
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 23 19:17:30 1996
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: "B. J. Snell" <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Excellence
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 22:16:39 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961223222458.269f1116@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks Sherry for your response, I am currently working on a round project
and would very much like to have this information as well.... Have a
wonderful holiday season everyone.... looking forward to a enlightened new
year and spending time with glass@bungi ...........

At 01:29 PM 12/22/96 -0800, you wrote:
>
>>Hi Mike,
>>Awhile back, I was looking for someone to make an oval frame for a window I
>>was making.  You wrote to me off-line saying your company did such work.
>>You didn't want anyone to think you were using the group for advertising
>>purposes.  I decided to give your company a try and was very pleased with
>>the results.  The frame fit perfectly and looked great.  You went beyond the
>>call of duty and sent the frame packed in foam and bubble-wrap perfect for
>>shipping my completed project.
>>If anyone at glass@bungi needs a frame for a special project, I highly
>>recommend Mike's company.
>>To everyone else who tried to come to my aid with my framing problems, also
>>a big thank you.
>>Merry Christmas to Mike and everyone at glass@bungi.
>>Roseanne
>
>Since there are several Mike's on this line, could you be more specific as
>which one and what company and how to get in touch with him?  Finding custom
>made oval or round frames would be wonderful.
>
>Thanks, and everyone have a Merry Christmas and a safe and sane holiday season.
>Sherry
        
Barbara J. Snell
Dept. of Campus Life
Cornell University
bjs10@cornell.edu

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 24 06:51:46 1996
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X-Path: gnn.com!LMageran
From: LMageran@gnn.com (Larry Mageran)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: re:unsuscribe
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 1996 09:48:00
Message-ID: <199612241450.JAA04650@mail-e2b.gnn.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Please remove my name and e-mail address from your mail list, because I'm 
about to change the carrier for my internet service. I will forward my new 
address when it becomes avaiable.

Thanx,

Larry Mageran

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From owner-glass Wed Dec 25 16:19:58 1996
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From: Roseanne Campbell <knowitall@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Excellence
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 00:18:45 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec26.01845.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>From: "B. J. Snell" <bjs10@cornell.edu>
>To: glass@bungi.com
>Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
>Subject: Re: Excellence
>X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
>Date: Tue, 24 Dec 96 03:16:39 +0000
>
>Thanks Sherry for your response, I am currently working on a round project
>and would very much like to have this information as well.... Have a
>wonderful holiday season everyone.... looking forward to a enlightened new
>year and spending time with glass@bungi ...........
>
>At 01:29 PM 12/22/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>
>>>Hi Mike,
>>>Awhile back, I was looking for someone to make an oval frame for a window I
>>>was making.  You wrote to me off-line saying your company did such work.
>>>You didn't want anyone to think you were using the group for advertising
>>>purposes.  I decided to give your company a try and was very pleased with
>>>the results.  The frame fit perfectly and looked great.  You went beyond the
>>>call of duty and sent the frame packed in foam and bubble-wrap perfect for
>>>shipping my completed project.
>>>If anyone at glass@bungi needs a frame for a special project, I highly
>>>recommend Mike's company.
>>>To everyone else who tried to come to my aid with my framing problems, also
>>>a big thank you.
>>>Merry Christmas to Mike and everyone at glass@bungi.
>>>Roseanne
>>
>>Since there are several Mike's on this line, could you be more specific as
>>which one and what company and how to get in touch with him?  Finding custom
>>made oval or round frames would be wonderful.
>>
>>Thanks, and everyone have a Merry Christmas and a safe and sane holiday
season.
>>Sherry
>        
>Barbara J. Snell
>Dept. of Campus Life
>Cornell University
>bjs10@cornell.edu
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>Sorry if I was vague.  I was referring to Mike Peck at Summit Stained Glass.  

Roseanne

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 26 16:57:43 1996
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X-Path: snowcrest.net!beermug
From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Giraffe
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 16:55:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199612270055.QAA01726@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I haven't been able to log on to them for awhile, did they move, close, or
does anyone know?

Thanks

Sherry

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From owner-glass Thu Dec 26 17:17:48 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Giraffe
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 96 20:21:25 PST
Message-ID: <1996Dec27.42125.0>
References: <<199612270055.QAA01726@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

They're doing fine. They have an exhibit at the local library on their =
new
stained glass video. I think he still has the AOL account.
                                                              
                  Robin                                                =
                          April
         Thyme For Ewe                                 Victorian Greenhou=
se & Stained Glass 
robinsoap@nemaine.com                                   vgplugs@primeline=
.com
                                                   **Co-listowners**
                          a mailng list for self employed homesteaders
                                     Homestead-work@esosoft.com 
             to subscribe send "subscribe" to: majordomo@esosoft.com   =
       







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From owner-glass Thu Dec 26 18:23:59 1996
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X-Path: brinet.com!reflections
From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Giraffe
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 1996 21:16:12 -0600
Message-ID: <199612270326.WAA03671@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

The Glass Giraffe has not moved the internet web creator that did their
Website has closed and they are currently shopping for a new site.  I think
that they plan to go with a Glass Co. Website.  You can call Jeff directly
@ 704 456-6665.  Tell them Kathy Sagy said to contact them for the correct
info.  Jeff and Karen live about 50 mins. from us and we talk to them about
once a week.  Hope this helps!!

----------
> From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Glass Giraffe
> Date: Thursday, December 26, 1996 6:55 PM
> 
> I haven't been able to log on to them for awhile, did they move, close,
or
> does anyone know?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sherry
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Fri Dec 27 07:42:54 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!70544.3642
From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Giraffe
Date: 27 Dec 96 10:41:42 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec27.154142.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >The Glass Giraffe has not moved the internet web creator that did their
   >Website has closed and they are currently shopping for a new site.  I
   >think that they plan to go with a Glass Co. Website.

Just a reminder to you all that I create websites and maintain them, too, at
very modest prices.  Members of the Guild, in fact, can get a web page showing
their work and offering it for sale at a *very low price: *free!  And those
pages have no monthly maintenance fees because bungi.com offers the storage
space for free.  So if you work with glass in any way/shape/form and are a
member of the Guild, get in touch with me for the details on getting a free web
page.

More complex web sites or those for non-members are very inexpensive. I'd love
to have you take a look at what I've done for other people.  Just ask!

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Sun Dec 29 18:37:59 1996
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	id m0veXaU-0000aya; Sun, 29 Dec 96 18:36 PST
X-Path: aol.com!LNETWORKS
From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Where's everyone
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:36:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec29.163621.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi All,
No glass msg for a while, everybody on Vacation???

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

Re: test msg.
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 29 18:48:52 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Where's everyone
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 96 21:53:44 PST
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.55344.0>
References: <<1996Dec29.163621.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I'm still here! Designing patterns today. 

April
vgplugs@primeline.com
In The Smoky Mountains, Zone 6
Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass      "Where Gardening Is An Art."




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From owner-glass Sun Dec 29 20:26:36 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Where's everyone
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 23:26:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec29.182613.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Thanks April,

I thought I was out of the loop!@

Lee
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From owner-glass Sun Dec 29 21:22:42 1996
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From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: very quiet
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 21:22:07 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199612300522.VAA01476@mtshasta.snowcrest.net>
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Hi, seems like everyone is keeping a low profile right now, must be
recuperating from the Christmas rush and gearing up for the New Year's bash!

It's too cold to get out in my workshop, and the flu bug has been visiting
my neighborhood, so I'm staying in and staying warm right now.  

Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas, and will be wise and careful with
the New Year celebrations.

Looking forward to some more discussions on glass and learning from everyone.

Happy New Year to you all.

Sherry

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 08:32:23 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 10:31:16 -0600 (CST)
Message-ID: <199612301631.KAA15909@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 hi folks,

 I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
installed in the 20's.

My intention was to use them for a commission in a new home but the owner
decided not to go with the glass block look which he decided was on the
verge of being passe'

So they have been sitting outside still in the zinc panels and they need to
be *repurposed* (just heard that one, you think it will catch on?)

My choices are to disassemble the panels and store the tiles.. try to sell
them or get some advice on how to use the tiles as some kind of craft item
or other project. They are .375 thick but they cut quite easily

Has anyone got any ideas other then coasters or trivets (sp?) I though about
tiling a bathroom floor/wall with them :-)

I would appreciate any and all ideas and suggestions for a use for this
material especially since my SO is tired of looking at those things lying
against the side of the house 

Len

OBTW... if anyone is interested let me know and I'll send a sample

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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 11:29:37 1996
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From: llutz <llutz@tpgi.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Where's everyone
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 23:27:11 +1100
Message-ID: <1996Dec31.102711.0>
References: <<1996Dec29.163621.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

LNETWORKS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> No glass msg for a while, everybody on Vacation???
> 
> Lee Boe
> Rain-Boe's Creations
No vacation for me- just started building walls to renovate the farm
cottage (I know I'm off topic) and trying to get a home page started.
However, have started to do a lampshade- only in the design stage.
However, the usual problem is fitting it into a busy timetable. The last
week hasn't helped- lost electricity for extended periods twice in the
last week- violent thunderstorms- I'm the last one on the line- so, any
problems in the 15 miles to town and I get the results of it.
I just got a Glass Patterns Quarterly today & noticed a blank grid
pattern that fits a globe shaped polystyrene mold. I'm not sure if I can
even get them here- perhaps someone can tell me more about them. TIA
Larry from Oz


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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 14:36:07 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 17:31:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.123149.0>
References: <<199612301631.KAA15909@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
>  hi folks,
> 
>  I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
> ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
> panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
> original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
> installed in the 20's.
> 
> My intention was to use them for a commission in a new home but the owner
> decided not to go with the glass block look which he decided was on the
> verge of being passe'
> 
> So they have been sitting outside still in the zinc panels and they need to
> be *repurposed* (just heard that one, you think it will catch on?)
> 
> My choices are to disassemble the panels and store the tiles.. try to sell
> them or get some advice on how to use the tiles as some kind of craft item
> or other project. They are .375 thick but they cut quite easily
> 
> Has anyone got any ideas other then coasters or trivets (sp?) I though about
> tiling a bathroom floor/wall with them :-)
> 
> I would appreciate any and all ideas and suggestions for a use for this
> material especially since my SO is tired of looking at those things lying
> against the side of the house
> 
> Len
> 
> OBTW... if anyone is interested let me know and I'll send a sample
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i wonder how it would look with neon lights behind them. or maybe you
can set them into a brick encloser and put lights behind them to light
up a driveway. or stack them up end to end and make a vertical light
somewhere, though that might look silly. maybe you can shape it so it
can fit underneath a roof (like over a doorway), and either put lights
behind it or colored glass of somekind to give it a more intresting
effect.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 18:52:14 1996
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From: mcFrenzy <pristine@gr.cns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 21:50:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.135045.0>
References: <<199612301631.KAA15909@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
>  hi folks,
> 
>  I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
> ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
> panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
> original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
> installed in the 20's.
> 

I can't say I want them but just thought I'd point out that these tiles
are probably from the Luxfor Glass Co. They were once commissioned by
Frank Lloyd Wright to create a tile of his design. Anyone else know
more??
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 19:06:58 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 22:03:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.1733.0>
References: <<1996Dec30.135045.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

mcFrenzy wrote:
> 
> len alcamo wrote:
> >
> >  hi folks,
> >
> >  I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
> > ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
> > panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
> > original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
> > installed in the 20's.
> >
> 
> I can't say I want them but just thought I'd point out that these tiles
> are probably from the Luxfor Glass Co. They were once commissioned by
> Frank Lloyd Wright to create a tile of his design. Anyone else know
> more??
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


if that's correct i wonder what it's worth to either a antique dealer,
restoration person, or frank lloyd wright fan.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 19:37:20 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:01:22 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.13122.0>
References: <<199612301631.KAA15909@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

len alcamo wrote:
> 
>  hi folks,
> 
>  I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
> ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
> panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
> original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
> installed in the 20's.
> 
> My intention was to use them for a commission in a new home but the owner
> decided not to go with the glass block look which he decided was on the
> verge of being passe'
> 
> So they have been sitting outside still in the zinc panels and they need to
> be *repurposed* (just heard that one, you think it will catch on?)
> 
> My choices are to disassemble the panels and store the tiles.. try to sell
> them or get some advice on how to use the tiles as some kind of craft item
> or other project. They are .375 thick but they cut quite easily
> 
> Has anyone got any ideas other then coasters or trivets (sp?) I though about
> tiling a bathroom floor/wall with them :-)
> 
> I would appreciate any and all ideas and suggestions for a use for this
> material especially since my SO is tired of looking at those things lying
> against the side of the house
> 
> Len
> 
> OBTW... if anyone is interested let me know and I'll send a sample
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Len,
How 'bout using the tiles as borders for planting beds or walks, then 
can string tiny white Christmas lights along them to light your way.  Or 
arrange them two-high and two-wide and put two large candles inside.  Or 
as a lamp base, and wire for base lights.  Have a healthy and prosperous 
'97.  T. in Montana.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 19:43:18 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Where's Everyone?
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 20:08:09 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Dec30.1389.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

I know where I've been, and it's not been in my glass studio (sob).  
Between getting ready for and then enjoying Christmas, we have had a 
record 42" total snowfall, an accumulation of 3 different snow storms 
in 3 days, with intermittent periods of freezing rain.  Which all began 
on Christmas Eve. So we have been shoveling and shoveling and cursing 
the snow gods,  and usually I love snow.  But this is overwhelming.  Now 
that it's warmed up some, the snow is quite heavy and to add to the 
weight, it's now pouring rain.  So with all the running water, an ice 
crust on the snow, it's beginning to puddle up and cause big messes, not 
to mention rather damp basements in some homes.  Also, roofs are caving 
in from the snow and rain accumulation.  We must have really ticked 
Someone off.
And that was the week that was.  (Am I dating myself?) So how's your 
week been?  T. in Montana
----
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From owner-glass Mon Dec 30 19:48:36 1996
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From: kmccullo@direct.ca
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 1996 19:49:54 -0800
Message-ID: <199612310348.TAA08425@orb.direct.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Re: Your note:
> I have about 1100 4"sq. clear glass tiles, one side fluted (?) other side
>ribbed and some with a sort of teardrop pattern. I removed them (in large
>panels) from a store front transom area that was being restored back to the
>original 1890's facade. I guesstimate that the tile panels were probably
>installed in the 20's.
>
>These pieces sound great. How about coffee table, with matching end tables,
if you have someone that can do the wood work for you. or how about box's,
or solid box that has loop on one corner so that it can hang like a prism to
catch the light. You could probably even try to make a lamp with some
modification to some of the pieces. I will probably think of more later. 

Karin,     

ps.   HAPPY NEW YEAR !!   hick-up, oophs I've started early on the wine.
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 08:13:28 1996
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From: Rio Grande Valley Museum <rgvmuse@hiline.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: glass tiles
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:13:28 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Dec31.41328.0>
References: <<199612301631.KAA15909@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: HiLine Internet Customer
Precedence: bulk

Len,  Let's see....for those tiles:  how about a number of them "framed"
as doors in a kitchen island or one of those countertopped half-wall
kitchen dividers.  What about combining with some beautiful wood into a
gorgeous liquor storage cabinet/small bar?  Make a hollow cube and put a
short stick of neon underneath for a night light or make a vertical
column and put a long neon stick for an "area" light like an entry hall
or even by the outside of a front door.  If there's a museum in the town
from whence they came, what about asking them if they'd have a use for
some - maybe they have a building where they would be
accurately/appropriately used as part of a restoration.  An
"oriental-style" lantern, 2 blocks (vert)x 1 block, either done
"stained-glass" style or inserted into routered 3/4 round to be hung
suspended.  
Getting back to the local historical/museum angle - have they any
historic value, either from the factory where they were made or who
designed the building where they were placed or are they just "generic"
glass tiles from that timeperiod?  If you have a "mainstreet" district
locally, they might have some info - or potential customers for them "as
is", if you just want to "dispose" of them.
Is there a trendy bathroom or kitchen design/build store near you and
would they have an interest, once again if you don't want to create with
them, just get rid of them.......
no truly brilliant thoughts - maybe my braincells are waiting for
resurgence with the new year.   Best wishes to all, Linn
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 10:16:21 1996
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From: fstryczek@juno.com (Frank M. Stryczek, Jr.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Tacky Wax
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:13:11 EST
Message-ID: <1996Dec31.181311.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I'm just about finished cutting the 1,986 pieces of my Wisteria Laburnum
lamp, being built on an Odyssey form.  The instructions now call for
coating the entire form with Tacky Wax before placing the foiled pieces
on the form.  I've received other advice, however, recommending that I
only put small dabs of the wax on the back side of each piece of glass,
then afixing the individual pieces to the bare, un-waxed form.  My main
concern is being able to successfully remove the lamp after the first
tack-soldering of the outside of the lamp. It is rather large, with lots
of small pieces, and I don't want to damage the lamp in the process of
removing it from the form.  I would welcome your thoughts and advice on
which works better.  Other suggestions, of course, are most welcome!  

Thanks,

F Stryczek, Jr.
Des Plaines, Illinois, USA
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 10:35:43 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Tacky Wax
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 13:31:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Dec31.83134.0>
References: <<1996Dec31.181311.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Frank M. Stryczek, Jr. wrote:
> 
> I'm just about finished cutting the 1,986 pieces of my Wisteria Laburnum
> lamp, being built on an Odyssey form.  The instructions now call for
> coating the entire form with Tacky Wax before placing the foiled pieces
> on the form.  I've received other advice, however, recommending that I
> only put small dabs of the wax on the back side of each piece of glass,
> then afixing the individual pieces to the bare, un-waxed form.  My main
> concern is being able to successfully remove the lamp after the first
> tack-soldering of the outside of the lamp. It is rather large, with lots
> of small pieces, and I don't want to damage the lamp in the process of
> removing it from the form.  I would welcome your thoughts and advice on
> which works better.  Other suggestions, of course, are most welcome!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> F Stryczek, Jr.
> Des Plaines, Illinois, USA
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i personally never worked with tacky wax much in that way. though i've
heard of ways to remove the shade though. one way is to put in under the
summer's hot sun, but if it's winter (and cold), that would'nt work. i
also heard putting it into a hot trunk of a car, with a towel under it,
in case it melts out. another method is a hair drier. i don't know how
well it freezes, what i would do is to make a demo of it and try out
different techinques to find out which works before you accidently
mishape your lamp.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
I just updated my lamp pictures, now there more accurate in color and
you can see both sides! Also see my panel pictures.


Check out my page, I've just added new photo's!
----
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From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 11:59:04 1996
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From: Ryan Alm / Susan Alm <romalm@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:02:42 -0500
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<pre><STRONG>
 <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
     =

 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
STRONG>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
 <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>

<center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
 <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
</pre>
<!--LINE2-->
<hr>
<br><big>
ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
age.<br>
<A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
<br>
<br>
<hr size=3D32>
<center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
<STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
 it to us (use address below))<br>
<center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
You can order right here!</center>
<ul>here's how:
<li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
 for orders under $50.
<li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
  <ul>
  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
NLY)
  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
t card.
  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
 LAST set of DIGITS.
</ul>
<li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
<li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
<li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
UL>
<hr size=3D32>
<STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
</STRONG><BR>
<strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
<strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
<STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
 60435</STRONG><BR>
<center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
<STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
R>
<strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
<p><center>
<img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
<P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
 you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
</BODY>
</HTML>
<meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
 ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
 cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
elephants, more, even more">
<!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->

<P>

<CENTER>
<HR NOSHADE>
<TABLE>
<TR>

<TD> =

<FONT SIZE=3D"2">
Space for this web page is provided as a service to
<A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
</FONT>
</TD>

<TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
<A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
ET=3D"_top"><IMG SRC=3D"http://members.tripod.com/ads/amgreet/250x50/hiwy00=
1.gif" WIDTH=3D"250" HEIGHT=3D"50" ALT=3D"you're only one click away..." bo=
rder=3D1></A> <BR>
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| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/toybox/">Toybox</A> =

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--------------23186A3D1895--

----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 12:09:48 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vfAV8-0001bCa; Tue, 31 Dec 96 12:09 PST
X-Path: iex.com!crowell
From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:12:23 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961231201223.008f4acc@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:02 PM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="italmexConn"
>
><BASE HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn">
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>The ITALMEX CONNECTION</TITLE></HEAD><BODY background=3Dhttp://www.p=
>wrnet.com/free/bg5.gif text=3D#ffffff link=3D#FFFF00 alink=3D#ffDD00 vlink=3D=
>#00ff00><p><H1><center><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</big><br>
><small>Your connection to a world of shopping values!</small></center></H1>=
><p><center><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
>
><TABLE BORDER=3D10 CELLSPACING=3D25>
>            <TR><TD><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexConn">English</A></TD>
>                   <TD><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1647/=
>index.html">Espanol</A></TD></TR>
>             </TABLE>
>Welcome to our ONLINE Shopping HOMEPAGE.
>             <BR>
><pre><STRONG>
> <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
>REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
>MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
>as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
>     =
>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
>~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
>=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
>STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
>EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
>Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
>/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>
>
><center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
>html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
> <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
>C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
></pre>
><!--LINE2-->
><hr>
><br><big>
>ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
>OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
>ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
>ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
> (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
>u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
>age.<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
>hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
><br>
><br>
><hr size=3D32>
><center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
><STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
>RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
>(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
> it to us (use address below))<br>
><center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
>You can order right here!</center>
><ul>here's how:
><li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
> for orders under $50.
><li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
>  <ul>
>  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
>ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
>otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
>NLY)
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
>ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
>t card.
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
>nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
> LAST set of DIGITS.
></ul>
><li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
>omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
><li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
><li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
>UL>
><hr size=3D32>
><STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
></STRONG><BR>
><strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
><strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
><STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
> 60435</STRONG><BR>
><center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
><STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
>R>
><strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
><p><center>
><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
><P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
>om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
>Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
>TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
>**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
>s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
> you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
>ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
>ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
>enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
></BODY>
></HTML>
><meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
>inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
>nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
>ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
>key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
> ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
>ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
>ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
>ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
>s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
>y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
>rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
>gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
>, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
>ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
> cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
>chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
>ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
>, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
>r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
>n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
>ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
>ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
>ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
>elephants, more, even more">
><!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->
>
><P>
>
><CENTER>
><HR NOSHADE>
><TABLE>
><TR>
>
><TD> =
>
><FONT SIZE=3D"2">
>Space for this web page is provided as a service to
><A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
>The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
>creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
><TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
>if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
>ET=3D"_top"><IMG SRC=3D"http://members.tripod.com/ads/amgreet/250x50/hiwy00=
>1.gif" WIDTH=3D"250" HEIGHT=3D"50" ALT=3D"you're only one click away..." bo=
>rder=3D1></A> <BR>
></TD>
>
></TR>
><TR>
>
><TD COLSPAN=3D"2" ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><FONT SIZE=3D"-1">
>  <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">Tripod Home</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/search.html#search">Search Member Pa=
>ges</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/homepager/">Free Homepage Builder=
></A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/">Planet T</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/daily/">Daily Scoop</A> =
>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/toybox/">Toybox</A> =
>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
></TR>
></TABLE>
></CENTER>
>
>--------------23186A3D1895--
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

J.P. Crowell




----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 12:10:01 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vfAVJ-0000aia; Tue, 31 Dec 96 12:09 PST
X-Path: iex.com!crowell
From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:12:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961231201229.008f2378@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:02 PM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="italmexConn"
>
><BASE HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn">
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>The ITALMEX CONNECTION</TITLE></HEAD><BODY background=3Dhttp://www.p=
>wrnet.com/free/bg5.gif text=3D#ffffff link=3D#FFFF00 alink=3D#ffDD00 vlink=3D=
>#00ff00><p><H1><center><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</big><br>
><small>Your connection to a world of shopping values!</small></center></H1>=
><p><center><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
>
><TABLE BORDER=3D10 CELLSPACING=3D25>
>            <TR><TD><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexConn">English</A></TD>
>                   <TD><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1647/=
>index.html">Espanol</A></TD></TR>
>             </TABLE>
>Welcome to our ONLINE Shopping HOMEPAGE.
>             <BR>
><pre><STRONG>
> <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
>REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
>MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
>as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
>     =
>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
>~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
>=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
>STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
>EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
>Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
>/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>
>
><center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
>html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
> <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
>C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
></pre>
><!--LINE2-->
><hr>
><br><big>
>ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
>OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
>ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
>ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
> (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
>u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
>age.<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
>hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
><br>
><br>
><hr size=3D32>
><center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
><STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
>RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
>(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
> it to us (use address below))<br>
><center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
>You can order right here!</center>
><ul>here's how:
><li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
> for orders under $50.
><li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
>  <ul>
>  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
>ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
>otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
>NLY)
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
>ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
>t card.
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
>nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
> LAST set of DIGITS.
></ul>
><li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
>omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
><li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
><li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
>UL>
><hr size=3D32>
><STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
></STRONG><BR>
><strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
><strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
><STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
> 60435</STRONG><BR>
><center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
><STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
>R>
><strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
><p><center>
><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
><P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
>om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
>Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
>TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
>**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
>s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
> you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
>ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
>ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
>enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
></BODY>
></HTML>
><meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
>inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
>nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
>ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
>key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
> ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
>ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
>ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
>ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
>s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
>y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
>rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
>gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
>, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
>ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
> cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
>chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
>ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
>, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
>r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
>n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
>ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
>ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
>ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
>elephants, more, even more">
><!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->
>
><P>
>
><CENTER>
><HR NOSHADE>
><TABLE>
><TR>
>
><TD> =
>
><FONT SIZE=3D"2">
>Space for this web page is provided as a service to
><A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
>The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
>creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
><TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
>if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
>ET=3D"_top"><IMG SRC=3D"http://members.tripod.com/ads/amgreet/250x50/hiwy00=
>1.gif" WIDTH=3D"250" HEIGHT=3D"50" ALT=3D"you're only one click away..." bo=
>rder=3D1></A> <BR>
></TD>
>
></TR>
><TR>
>
><TD COLSPAN=3D"2" ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><FONT SIZE=3D"-1">
>  <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">Tripod Home</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/search.html#search">Search Member Pa=
>ges</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/homepager/">Free Homepage Builder=
></A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/">Planet T</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/daily/">Daily Scoop</A> =
>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/toybox/">Toybox</A> =
>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
></TR>
></TABLE>
></CENTER>
>
>--------------23186A3D1895--
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

J.P. Crowell




----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 12:10:19 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vfAVY-0000pUa; Tue, 31 Dec 96 12:09 PST
X-Path: iex.com!crowell
From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:12:38 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961231201238.008f4acc@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:02 PM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="italmexConn"
>
><BASE HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn">
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>The ITALMEX CONNECTION</TITLE></HEAD><BODY background=3Dhttp://www.p=
>wrnet.com/free/bg5.gif text=3D#ffffff link=3D#FFFF00 alink=3D#ffDD00 vlink=3D=
>#00ff00><p><H1><center><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</big><br>
><small>Your connection to a world of shopping values!</small></center></H1>=
><p><center><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
>
><TABLE BORDER=3D10 CELLSPACING=3D25>
>            <TR><TD><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexConn">English</A></TD>
>                   <TD><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1647/=
>index.html">Espanol</A></TD></TR>
>             </TABLE>
>Welcome to our ONLINE Shopping HOMEPAGE.
>             <BR>
><pre><STRONG>
> <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
>REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
>MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
>as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
>     =
>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
>~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
>=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
>STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
>EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
>Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
>/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>
>
><center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
>html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
> <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
>C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
></pre>
><!--LINE2-->
><hr>
><br><big>
>ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
>OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
>ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
>ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
> (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
>u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
>age.<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
>hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
><br>
><br>
><hr size=3D32>
><center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
><STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
>RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
>(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
> it to us (use address below))<br>
><center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
>You can order right here!</center>
><ul>here's how:
><li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
> for orders under $50.
><li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
>  <ul>
>  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
>ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
>otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
>NLY)
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
>ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
>t card.
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
>nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
> LAST set of DIGITS.
></ul>
><li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
>omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
><li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
><li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
>UL>
><hr size=3D32>
><STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
></STRONG><BR>
><strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
><strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
><STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
> 60435</STRONG><BR>
><center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
><STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
>R>
><strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
><p><center>
><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
><P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
>om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
>Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
>TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
>**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
>s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
> you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
>ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
>ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
>enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
></BODY>
></HTML>
><meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
>inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
>nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
>ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
>key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
> ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
>ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
>ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
>ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
>s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
>y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
>rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
>gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
>, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
>ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
> cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
>chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
>ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
>, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
>r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
>n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
>ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
>ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
>ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
>elephants, more, even more">
><!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->
>
><P>
>
><CENTER>
><HR NOSHADE>
><TABLE>
><TR>
>
><TD> =
>
><FONT SIZE=3D"2">
>Space for this web page is provided as a service to
><A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
>The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
>creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
><TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
>if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
>ET=3D"_top"><IMG SRC=3D"http://members.tripod.com/ads/amgreet/250x50/hiwy00=
>1.gif" WIDTH=3D"250" HEIGHT=3D"50" ALT=3D"you're only one click away..." bo=
>rder=3D1></A> <BR>
></TD>
>
></TR>
><TR>
>
><TD COLSPAN=3D"2" ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><FONT SIZE=3D"-1">
>  <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">Tripod Home</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/search.html#search">Search Member Pa=
>ges</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/homepager/">Free Homepage Builder=
></A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/">Planet T</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/daily/">Daily Scoop</A> =
>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/toybox/">Toybox</A> =
>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
></TR>
></TABLE>
></CENTER>
>
>--------------23186A3D1895--
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

J.P. Crowell




----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 12:10:20 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vfAVc-0001cOa; Tue, 31 Dec 96 12:10 PST
X-Path: iex.com!crowell
From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:12:42 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961231201242.008f4acc@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:02 PM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="italmexConn"
>
><BASE HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn">
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>The ITALMEX CONNECTION</TITLE></HEAD><BODY background=3Dhttp://www.p=
>wrnet.com/free/bg5.gif text=3D#ffffff link=3D#FFFF00 alink=3D#ffDD00 vlink=3D=
>#00ff00><p><H1><center><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</big><br>
><small>Your connection to a world of shopping values!</small></center></H1>=
><p><center><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
>
><TABLE BORDER=3D10 CELLSPACING=3D25>
>            <TR><TD><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexConn">English</A></TD>
>                   <TD><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1647/=
>index.html">Espanol</A></TD></TR>
>             </TABLE>
>Welcome to our ONLINE Shopping HOMEPAGE.
>             <BR>
><pre><STRONG>
> <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
>REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
>MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
>as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
>     =
>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
>~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
>=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
>STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
>EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
>Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
>/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>
>
><center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
>html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
> <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
>C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
></pre>
><!--LINE2-->
><hr>
><br><big>
>ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
>OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
>ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
>ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
> (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
>u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
>age.<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
>hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
><br>
><br>
><hr size=3D32>
><center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
><STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
>RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
>(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
> it to us (use address below))<br>
><center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
>You can order right here!</center>
><ul>here's how:
><li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
> for orders under $50.
><li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
>  <ul>
>  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
>ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
>otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
>NLY)
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
>ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
>t card.
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
>nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
> LAST set of DIGITS.
></ul>
><li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
>omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
><li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
><li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
>UL>
><hr size=3D32>
><STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
></STRONG><BR>
><strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
><strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
><STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
> 60435</STRONG><BR>
><center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
><STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
>R>
><strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
><p><center>
><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
><P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
>om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
>Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
>TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
>**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
>s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
> you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
>ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
>ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
>enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
></BODY>
></HTML>
><meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
>inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
>nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
>ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
>key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
> ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
>ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
>ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
>ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
>s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
>y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
>rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
>gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
>, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
>ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
> cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
>chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
>ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
>, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
>r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
>n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
>ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
>ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
>ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
>elephants, more, even more">
><!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->
>
><P>
>
><CENTER>
><HR NOSHADE>
><TABLE>
><TR>
>
><TD> =
>
><FONT SIZE=3D"2">
>Space for this web page is provided as a service to
><A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
>The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
>creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
><TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
>if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
>ET=3D"_top"><IMG SRC=3D"http://members.tripod.com/ads/amgreet/250x50/hiwy00=
>1.gif" WIDTH=3D"250" HEIGHT=3D"50" ALT=3D"you're only one click away..." bo=
>rder=3D1></A> <BR>
></TD>
>
></TR>
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><TD COLSPAN=3D"2" ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><FONT SIZE=3D"-1">
>  <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">Tripod Home</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/search.html#search">Search Member Pa=
>ges</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/homepager/">Free Homepage Builder=
></A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/">Planet T</A>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/daily/">Daily Scoop</A> =
>
>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/planet/toybox/">Toybox</A> =
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>
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></CENTER>
>
>--------------23186A3D1895--
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

J.P. Crowell




----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Tue Dec 31 12:12:52 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vfAY6-0001IPa; Tue, 31 Dec 96 12:12 PST
X-Path: iex.com!crowell
From: Paige Crowell <crowell@iex.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry for intruding, won't happen again!!!!
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 1996 14:12:33 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961231201233.008f4acc@neptune.tx.iex.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:02 PM 12/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn
>
>--------------23186A3D1895
>Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>Content-Disposition: inline; filename="italmexConn"
>
><BASE HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/italmexConn">
>
><HTML>
><HEAD>
><TITLE>The ITALMEX CONNECTION</TITLE></HEAD><BODY background=3Dhttp://www.p=
>wrnet.com/free/bg5.gif text=3D#ffffff link=3D#FFFF00 alink=3D#ffDD00 vlink=3D=
>#00ff00><p><H1><center><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</big><br>
><small>Your connection to a world of shopping values!</small></center></H1>=
><p><center><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
>
><TABLE BORDER=3D10 CELLSPACING=3D25>
>            <TR><TD><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexConn">English</A></TD>
>                   <TD><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1647/=
>index.html">Espanol</A></TD></TR>
>             </TABLE>
>Welcome to our ONLINE Shopping HOMEPAGE.
>             <BR>
><pre><STRONG>
> <big><big>WE FEATURE:</big></BIG></STRONG>                            <A H=
>REF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/List_of_Prices_and_More"><I=
>MG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></A>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> BIG DISCOUNTS</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> DAILY <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/ita=
>lmexToys_index.html">SPECIALS</A></STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> Checks and Money Orders WELCOMED, as well =
>as VISA/MC!</STRONG>
>     =
>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> FAST SHIPPING</STRONG>  <IMG SRC=3D"earth.=
>gif"><STRONG> 95% of Our Products <EM>Are</EM> always In Stock</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> LOOK <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/=
>~ryanalmRhinoH/IMC_LiL_Italiano">AT OUR NEW Italian Links Page</a>.</STRONG=
>>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> We'll Give You Excellent Gift <big><A HREF=
>=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/morePrices">IDEAS</a></big>.</=
>STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">FR=
>EE</A> Mail Order Catalog, just give us your NAME & ADDRESS</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <EM>OVER</EM></STRONG><STRONG> 2000 QUALIT=
>Y Products to meet EVERY Gift Giving OCCASION.</STRONG>
> <IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"><STRONG> <A HREF=3D"http://www.angelfire.com/pages1=
>/IMCinfo/index.html">IMC's Warranties & Guarantees</A>
>
><center>View our <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/index.=
>html"><IMG SRC=3D"earth.gif"></a> Services & <big>FAQ's</big></center>
> <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalmRhinoH/theraccc.html"><IMG SR=
>C=3D"earth.gif"> Create a greeting card!</a>
></pre>
><!--LINE2-->
><hr>
><br><big>
>ONE question for MEN, Is it <A HREF=3D"http://free.websight.com/MartinA/">T=
>OOL TIME</A> YET!</big><br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/angel1.gif">Are you see=
>ing Angels Yet?</A> :Both Your Cost $14.95 (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/euniglob.gif">Do you kn=
>ow what this is?</A> :Item#22563 (plays "impossible dream")Your Cost $26.20=
> (thats 25% OFF)<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/fragrance2.jpg">Maam yo=
>u sure do smell nice!</A> :Check 3.3oz bottle prices on our extended list p=
>age.<br>
><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1039/player.gif">Did anyone =
>hear music?</A> :Item#23765  Your Cost $31.15<br>
><br>
><br>
><hr size=3D32>
><center><IMG SRC=3D"pencil.gif"></center>
><STRONG>If you'd like you can <A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/~ryanalm=
>RhinoH/joltornadoes.html">order your products</A> from HERE.<br>
>(JUST FILL IN THE ORDER FORM with your Pencil or Pen & FAX it to us OR mail=
> it to us (use address below))<br>
><center><big><big><big><blink>O R</blink></big></big></big><br>
>You can order right here!</center>
><ul>here's how:
><li>Make sure you know the total amount of your order, including your $2.50=
> for orders under $50.
><li>next, you have to complete 3 steps.
>  <ul>
>  <li>You better make sure that YOU SUBMIT ALL ITEM#'s, DESCRIPTIONS, QUANT=
>ITY NEEDED, INDIVIDUAL PRICE, and of course, YOUR TOTAL COST!
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:romalm@ix.netcom.com">email</a>Your name, date, & t=
>otal of purchase and the FIRST set of digits on your credit card (VISA/MC O=
>NLY)
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:chistoso@hotmail.com">THEN</a> email me the date(ag=
>ain!), your address, telephone#, and The SECOND set of DIGITS on your credi=
>t card.
>  <li><a href=3D"mailto:adminatimc@hotmail.com">The last email</a> is to se=
>nd the date( yes again!), your EXPIRATION DATE on your credit card, and the=
> LAST set of DIGITS.
></ul>
><li>AND thats it! Its easy, and we think its SECURE, because the average "c=
>omputer hacker" has to do too much work to get your numbers!
><li>We will process the order and send you a confirmation email!
><li><blink>MAKE SURE</blink> YOU PUT THE DATE ON ALL YOUR EMAIL MESSAGES!</=
>UL>
><hr size=3D32>
><STRONG><BIG><BIG><BIG><big>The ITAL-MEX CONNECTION</BIG></BIG></BIG></big>=
></STRONG><BR>
><strong>C/o Ryan Alm - PR</strong><br>
><strong>821 Buell Ave.</strong><br>
><STRONG><A HREF=3D"http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2223">Joliet</A>, IL =
> 60435</STRONG><BR>
><center><strong>FAX: 1-815-723-9524</strong></center>
><STRONG>FAX between the hours of 2:00pm and 5:00 pm Central Time</STRONG><B=
>R>
><strong><center>VOICE MAIL: 1-502-753-8054 ext.200</center></strong><br>
><p><center>
><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center>
><P><h5><i>This site was designed automatically,with the help of the crew fr=
>om<a href=3Dmailto:www@pwrnet.com>PowerNet, Inc.</a><br>
>Also, it was created with the help from <A href=3D"http://www.tripod.com/">=
>TRIPOD!!!</a> (Thank you tripod!!!)</h5></i><br>
>**listen we at IMC will never pressure you from ordering, however no one ha=
>s proved how SECURE online ordering can can be, so we really suggest before=
> you use you credit card to order any products from anyone, we SUGEST maili=
>ng your order in or FAXing the order.  We currently support both ordering o=
>ptions and suggest you take advantage of it! THANK YOU FOR VISITING!!!<p><c=
>enter><img src=3D"bar3.gif"></center><br>
></BODY>
></HTML>
><meta  name=3D"keywords" content=3D"shopping, products, italian, mexican, l=
>inks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, con=
>nection, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, d=
>ogs, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, =
>key chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy=
> ordering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, r=
>ings, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, lin=
>ks, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, conne=
>ction, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dog=
>s, cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, ke=
>y chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy o=
>rdering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rin=
>gs, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links=
>, r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connect=
>ion, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs,=
> cats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key =
>chains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy ord=
>ering, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings=
>, elephants, more, even more, shopping, products, italian, mexican, links, =
>r, y, a, n, l, m, discounts, values, ital, mex, italmex, connect, connectio=
>n, free, catalog, free catalog, purchasing, buying, comprar, bears, dogs, c=
>ats, ceramics, kitchen items, values, buy, visit, wallets, pictures, key ch=
>ains, more products, extended prices, prices, A, easy, ordering, easy order=
>ing, visa, mastercard, visa/mastercard, christmas, holidays, cards, rings, =
>elephants, more, even more">
><!--"Begin Footer for Member Pages"-->
>
><P>
>
><CENTER>
><HR NOSHADE>
><TABLE>
><TR>
>
><TD> =
>
><FONT SIZE=3D"2">
>Space for this web page is provided as a service to
><A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/" TARGET=3D"_top">Tripod</A> members.
>The contents of this page are the responsibility of its
>creator, not Tripod, Inc.<BR>
></FONT>
></TD>
>
><TD ALIGN=3D"CENTER">
><A HREF=3D"http://members.tripod.com/bin/clickover?amgreet/250x50/hiwy001.g=
>if+http://www.greetingcard.com/cgi-bin/home?source=3DtripodD3+members" TARG=
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>| <A HREF=3D"http://www.tripod.com/daily/">Daily Scoop</A> =
>
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