From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 03:11:36 1996
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From: B J Snell <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Date
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 06:09:20 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961101060935.192f2a58@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
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At 11:16 PM 10/29/96 -0500, you wrote:
>                
>                11/4/96 is neither April 11th nor November 11th, but
>November 4th!!
>
                        For future reference..... when one lives in Europe
or is in the US Military services  11/4/96 is the Eleventh of April.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barbara J. Snell
Jansen's Dining, Cornell University
255-5960
bjs10@cornell.edu

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 10:47:14 1996
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From: Roseanne Campbell <knowitall@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: copper reinforcing 
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:45:46 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov1.184546.0>
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 Hi Everyone,

Does anyone have any tips for using the copper reinforcing -Strong Line_ I
think its called?  My project is slightly over 20" vertically.   Do I really
need to reinforce this size.  This stuff is hard to bend to the proper
shape-can you just put a piece here and there and get enough strength to
serve the purpose?  

Thanks,
Roseanne

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 11:07:24 1996
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From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: copper reinforcing
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:05:19 PST
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[In the message entitled "copper reinforcing" on Nov  1, 18:45, Roseanne Campbell writes:]

> Does anyone have any tips for using the copper reinforcing -Strong Line_ I
> think its called?  My project is slightly over 20" vertically.   Do I really
> need to reinforce this size.  This stuff is hard to bend to the proper
> shape-can you just put a piece here and there and get enough strength to
> serve the purpose?  

Although I have yet to use this product,...I believe if you use some
needle nose pliers to help you bend it it will be easier.  I wouldn't think 
you should have to reinforce it though.  I thought the rule of thumb was
anything over 2 ft.  If you do reinforce, the strip should be woven into
the pattern design (a continuous strip from top to bottom) in several
areas.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 13:15:44 1996
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From: jenkyn@aros.net (Jenkyn A. Powell)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: copper reinforcing
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:27:29 -0500
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Hi Roseanne,
Yes you should add some reinforcement to your panel. It is my belief that
there can not be too much reinforcement.  Although you haven't said how
wide your project is.  I will assume for the sake of discussion it is a
square.  Reinforcement is the backbone of leaded glasswork and it should
always be planned first when designing a project.  Many modern glass people
believe (incorrectly) that foil is so strong that it simply does not need
to be reinforced.  This is simply not the case.  Given time the laws of
entropy & gravity WILL win.  Our job is to delay the inevitable as long as
possible, reinforcement will help.
Glenna's suggestion of using long nosed pliers is valid.  Assemble the
sections of the window that boarder the re-strip.  Then bend the strip to
the curvature to fit between them.  Next tack the strip to the points where
the soldered "cames" meet the re-strip.  Slide the sections together, use
glazing nails to fix the panel in place.  Then solder the re-strip and foil
together.  This will, of course, make a slightly wider line.  When
designing  this can be used to "reinforce the design as well as the window
itself.
Pardon me I tend to go on when prompted.
Best of luck,
Jenkyn A. Powell
Powell Brothers & Sons
http://www.powellbrosglassart.com


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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 13:40:47 1996
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From: Rio Grande Valley Museum <rgvmuse@hiline.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: pussy willows
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 15:40:21 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov1.94021.0>
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I recall seeing a pussy willow with dogwood (I think, maybe azaleas) in
a pattern book for sidelights, doorways and panels.  it wasn't on the
cover but there was a color picture of the completed piece as well as
the pattern in the book - about 3 years ago.  sorry, i know that's not
much help..... Linn
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 14:33:10 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: copper reinforcing
Date: Fri, 01 Nov 1996 17:31:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov1.123151.0>
References: <<1996Nov1.184546.0>>
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Roseanne Campbell wrote:
> 
>  Hi Everyone,
> 
> Does anyone have any tips for using the copper reinforcing -Strong Line_ I
> think its called?  My project is slightly over 20" vertically.   Do I really
> need to reinforce this size.  This stuff is hard to bend to the proper
> shape-can you just put a piece here and there and get enough strength to
> serve the purpose?
> 
> Thanks,
> Roseanne
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

it never hurts to reinforce. i like using the open mesh kind (which i'm
pretty sure is just a solder wick only without the flux on it). it tends
to absorb solder better, and does'nt oxidise. it's a little more
expensive (but i hardly ever use it). it also depends on what the design
is. for example if the piece is a grid, like a chess board, it will be
floppy, and also kind of difficult to stongline. so basically it depends
on your pattern, the best way to have the stongest joint possible is to
put the strong line across the whole panel if you can weaving and
shoving it through the whole panel. sometimes if you can design it in
advance, is to leave a little bit more space for the line, so the solder
can "drip" into the joint better.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  1 16:21:03 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 16:20:34 -0800
Message-ID: <199611020020.QAA01488@dfw-ix1.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>

>
>Nor have I ever gotten an infection from a glass cut 

It helps that they bleed.
>
>Since I'm a lead person the tips of my fingers are all cross-hatched 
with
>little cuts,


Try a product by American bandage. Also by others I am sure. It is a 
gauze that is impregnated with natural rubber. It sticks to itself but 
not to you. It is a little clunky at the begining but after you get 
used to it you can work all day pulling un-edged pieces into came with 
nary a cut. you put it in just your finger tips. I also use it to pre 
wrap my wrist to keep from getting skin irirtation from a wrist brace ( 
just fending off tendonitis.) 

worse on the right hand since I have callouses from guitar
>strings on my left which just need to be sanded occasionally

also good to keep those fingers from getting cut just before a jam 
night ( inevitably when I get the only cut of the week on my left hand) 
 :-)
>

>This safety prceedure has saved me from sure disaster on more then one
>occasion. I've seen sheets come apart in peoples hands and you don't 
wanna
>know the gory details.
>

Especialy hate it when holding a sheet up to the light to show a client 
the color. ( luckily not me and no injurys just much embaresment.)


MS

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  2 05:03:16 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: 02 Nov 96 07:59:26 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov2.125926.0>
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> Try a product by American bandage. Also by others I am sure. It is a 
> gauze that is impregnated with natural rubber.<

I'd rather it was impregnated with a synthetic considering the track record 
of natural rubber in the medical/dental industry in terms of serious 
allergies.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
Board IGGA
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2596     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  2 12:31:04 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 15:28:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov2.102815.0>
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> 
> just courious but what broke on your inland? i've had mine for over 10
> years, and it's still running strong. the only thing i had to replace
> was the grid. though the only things i like about the glasstar and wish
> they incorporated into the inland is the little drawer in the bottom,
> and the long flexible splash gard.
> 
> ---Mike Savad


My touch top feature gave out, along with those of two customers.  
Another customer bought the Impulse and it made a very very loud 
grinding noise while grinding...she returned it.  I have not had good 
luck selling the Inland grinder products.  I'm also basing this on my 
review of all Inland products.  Each new product that has come on the 
market, seems to be lacking in actual trial time, there are a lot of 
bugs still to be worked out.  The twin spin attachment that I bought I 
think is a total wipeout.  NOT WORTH IT.  But silly me, bought each item 
the first few months they were out and since then Inland has added 
things to correct all the bugs I got in my original products.  I have 
never had the first problem with ANY Glastar product.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Sat Nov  2 13:01:58 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 1996 16:00:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov2.11041.0>
References: <<1996Nov2.102815.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> >
> > just courious but what broke on your inland? i've had mine for over 10
> > years, and it's still running strong. the only thing i had to replace
> > was the grid. though the only things i like about the glasstar and wish
> > they incorporated into the inland is the little drawer in the bottom,
> > and the long flexible splash gard.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> 
> My touch top feature gave out, along with those of two customers.
> Another customer bought the Impulse and it made a very very loud
> grinding noise while grinding...she returned it.  I have not had good
> luck selling the Inland grinder products.  I'm also basing this on my
> review of all Inland products.  Each new product that has come on the
> market, seems to be lacking in actual trial time, there are a lot of
> bugs still to be worked out.  The twin spin attachment that I bought I
> think is a total wipeout.  NOT WORTH IT.  But silly me, bought each item
> the first few months they were out and since then Inland has added
> things to correct all the bugs I got in my original products.  I have
> never had the first problem with ANY Glastar product.
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


intresting, i wonder if it has anything to do with the newer products,
my grinders are pre touch top or resavoir removal. i do have a twin
spin, works fine for me i wish it had better instructions though, i
never used the touch top feature, don't need it. the only thing i don't
like about the twin-spin is it throw water out at me. but the people
there are nice, and when i called about some broken parts they sent me
new ones free of charge (the ones you can't usassly buy, like a grid).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 04:09:02 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Date
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 13:05:18 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.14518.0>
References: <<2.2.16.19961101060935.192f2a58@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>>
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> >
> For future reference..... when one lives in Europe
> or is in the US Military services  11/4/96 is the Eleventh of April.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Barbara J. Snell
> Jansen's Dining, Cornell University
> 255-5960
> bjs10@cornell.edu
> 
> ----
Thank you Barbara! I´m living in the Netherlands, Europe. From our per-
spective Americans tend to look at the world as an outpost of the 
great U.S. of A. ;-) The word "international" often means "inter our
states": IGGA? 
But don't let this bother you in any way: i'm enjoying your discussions
very much and a lot of it apply's to our continent as well. For 
example: thanks to your comments i now know what soldering iron to buy.
And allthough (is this English?) i sometimes think your discussions
about health and safety are a little overdone (me driving a motorcycle
through heavy traffic avery day seems to be more damaging)
it did start me thinking about making some adjustments in my hobby-room.
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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 04:23:31 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: 03 Nov 96 07:22:09 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.12229.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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> 
> I have noticed that after working for years with stained glass, I hardly
> notice the small cuts on my hands.  

   >yeah generally that's what most people that's been doing stained glass
   >for while says. i don't care if i get cut, generally i don't even notice
   >it, until i see blood getting on the glass. 

My dad and I used to raise bees ... and the same attitude applied.  Getting 
stung wasn't something one even *noticed anymore, but waiting for the sting 
was more of a bother.  If a bee got under my clothing, I'd usually just press 
my hand against it to get the stinging thing over with.  'Course, it still 
bothered me that the poor bees commit suicide when they sting you <s> their 
entire innards being connected to the stinger so that when they've attacked 
you, they afterwards die. <sob>

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 07:43:20 1996
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From: mike  peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:42:46 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.154246.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>My touch top feature gave out, along with those of two customers.  
>Another customer bought the Impulse and it made a very very loud 
>grinding noise while grinding...she returned it.  I have not had good 
>luck selling the Inland grinder products.  I'm also basing this on my 
>review of all Inland products.  Each new product that has come on the 
>market, seems to be lacking in actual trial time, there are a lot of 
>bugs still to be worked out.  The twin spin attachment that I bought I 
>think is a total wipeout.  NOT WORTH IT.  But silly me, bought each item 
>the first few months they were out and since then Inland has added 
>things to correct all the bugs I got in my original products.  I have 
>never had the first problem with ANY Glastar product.
>
>Garden of Glass
>Joyce Moran


Joyce,

I have used the large Wizard Deluxes in my studio for maybe 5-6 years and no
problems, that's even with student abuse.  I like the big Inland grinder
because it is powerful, it's rugged, and it's cheaper than the Glastar.  I
run them for about a year, then sell them as used equipment and replace with
new.  

Another local retailer called me about 6 months ago complaining about the
Twin Spin and the Touch top models and asked if I had any returns with them.
At that time, they where still so new on the market that I hadn't stocked
them yet.  But, I have seen Inland rush things through their R&D before so I
began advising my customers to wait for a while, if they really wanted a
"touch top" feature, try a foot switch.  Since then, that local retailer has
seen returns of almost all of the earlier Inland grinders he sold.  

While we're on Inland, I wonder if I could get your comments on their
cutters?  I put out several cutters for my classes and I encourage students
to "try before they buy".  One student was using the slim line with the
clear acrylic handle and the handle just snapped in two.  She wasn't putting
any excess pressure that i could see.  Later, I noticed that one of the
pistol grip cutters was leaking oil like crazy ...... I found that the
housing had started to split at the glued seam near the cutter head.  One
student bought a brass barreled Inland one night and opened it up to put
some oil in it and couldn't get the top nut off.  I finally got it off using
pliers, but the threads were so burred that the nut wouldn't go back on.  I
use Toyo's and Fletcher's almost exclusively now and haven't had any
problems with them.  

I guess the only product that Inland has that I recommend is their big
grinder. I don't like their cutters and i don't like their soldering irons
...... breaker and running pliers seem to be OK, but Inland imports those
anyway.

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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 09:51:06 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 12:49:51 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.74951.0>
References: <<1996Nov3.154246.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

mike peck wrote:
> 
> >My touch top feature gave out, along with those of two customers.
> >Another customer bought the Impulse and it made a very very loud
> >grinding noise while grinding...she returned it.  I have not had good
> >luck selling the Inland grinder products.  I'm also basing this on my
> >review of all Inland products.  Each new product that has come on the
> >market, seems to be lacking in actual trial time, there are a lot of
> >bugs still to be worked out.  The twin spin attachment that I bought I
> >think is a total wipeout.  NOT WORTH IT.  But silly me, bought each item
> >the first few months they were out and since then Inland has added
> >things to correct all the bugs I got in my original products.  I have
> >never had the first problem with ANY Glastar product.
> >
> >Garden of Glass
> >Joyce Moran
> 
> Joyce,
> 
> I have used the large Wizard Deluxes in my studio for maybe 5-6 years and no
> problems, that's even with student abuse.  I like the big Inland grinder
> because it is powerful, it's rugged, and it's cheaper than the Glastar.  I
> run them for about a year, then sell them as used equipment and replace with
> new.
> 
> Another local retailer called me about 6 months ago complaining about the
> Twin Spin and the Touch top models and asked if I had any returns with them.
> At that time, they where still so new on the market that I hadn't stocked
> them yet.  But, I have seen Inland rush things through their R&D before so I
> began advising my customers to wait for a while, if they really wanted a
> "touch top" feature, try a foot switch.  Since then, that local retailer has
> seen returns of almost all of the earlier Inland grinders he sold.
> 
> While we're on Inland, I wonder if I could get your comments on their
> cutters?  I put out several cutters for my classes and I encourage students
> to "try before they buy".  One student was using the slim line with the
> clear acrylic handle and the handle just snapped in two.  She wasn't putting
> any excess pressure that i could see.  Later, I noticed that one of the
> pistol grip cutters was leaking oil like crazy ...... I found that the
> housing had started to split at the glued seam near the cutter head.  One
> student bought a brass barreled Inland one night and opened it up to put
> some oil in it and couldn't get the top nut off.  I finally got it off using
> pliers, but the threads were so burred that the nut wouldn't go back on.  I
> use Toyo's and Fletcher's almost exclusively now and haven't had any
> problems with them.
> 
> I guess the only product that Inland has that I recommend is their big
> grinder. I don't like their cutters and i don't like their soldering irons
> ...... breaker and running pliers seem to be OK, but Inland imports those
> anyway.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i did'nt know inland made glass cutters, i've had there irons, (big
disapointment). i use and have always used, in one form or another,
fletcher cutters, nothing else will do. i found toyo is expensive an
leaks, (at least the pistol grip). and although i mentioned lots of
times before i prefer large inland grinders. BTW what were the problems
on the twinspin? since i have that grinder, i'm curious what i might
have coming to me.  also i know it's still new, and i'm not sure if it's
released yet, but does anyone know if the bevel pro grinder works well?

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 15:37:48 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: IGGA's international
Date: 03 Nov 96 18:36:07 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.23367.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >The word "international" often means "inter our states": IGGA?

While it's true that most of the IGGA's members are within the U.S., many
members are not.  And the *intention of the Guild is to be international; in
other words, you don't have to be an American to join. <s>

Outside the U.S., currently there are members in Canada, England, France,
Israel, Kenya, New Zealand, Republic of South Africa, Singapore, Switzerland,
and the United Kingdom.  We've been asked for model bylaws to set up local
chapters of the Guild in India and in other countries, but so far, the only
chapter currently set up outside the U.S. is in South Africa.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 15:54:30 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 18:51:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.135123.0>
References: <<1996Nov3.154246.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> Joyce,
> 
> I have used the large Wizard Deluxes in my studio for maybe 5-6 years and no
> problems, that's even with student abuse.  I like the big Inland grinder
> because it is powerful, it's rugged, and it's cheaper than the Glastar.  I
> run them for about a year, then sell them as used equipment and replace with
> new.
> 
> Another local retailer called me about 6 months ago complaining about the
> Twin Spin and the Touch top models and asked if I had any returns with them.
> At that time, they where still so new on the market that I hadn't stocked
> them yet.  But, I have seen Inland rush things through their R&D before so I
> began advising my customers to wait for a while, if they really wanted a
> "touch top" feature, try a foot switch.  Since then, that local retailer has
> seen returns of almost all of the earlier Inland grinders he sold.
> 
> While we're on Inland, I wonder if I could get your comments on their
> cutters?  I put out several cutters for my classes and I encourage students
> to "try before they buy".  One student was using the slim line with the
> clear acrylic handle and the handle just snapped in two.  She wasn't putting
> any excess pressure that i could see.  Later, I noticed that one of the
> pistol grip cutters was leaking oil like crazy ...... I found that the
> housing had started to split at the glued seam near the cutter head.  One
> student bought a brass barreled Inland one night and opened it up to put
> some oil in it and couldn't get the top nut off.  I finally got it off using
> pliers, but the threads were so burred that the nut wouldn't go back on.  I
> use Toyo's and Fletcher's almost exclusively now and haven't had any
> problems with them.
> 
> I guess the only product that Inland has that I recommend is their big
> grinder. I don't like their cutters and i don't like their soldering irons
> ...... breaker and running pliers seem to be OK, but Inland imports those
> anyway.
> 


I do stock the Inland Running Pliers and grozers, the Inland Edgemaster 
Foiler, and the maroon Soldering Iron the 60008.  I have had no problems 
with any of this equipment, but have not tried any other, so I wouldn't 
know the difference, and suppose my customers don't either.   (Except 
that I have tried samples of the other new foiler that costs a bunch and 
didn't like the fact that it doesn't crimp the sides.)

As for cutter's the only one I stock is Toyo's pistol grip, and do have 
problems with leakage sometimes.  But I still like the way they handle 
for female students, and haven't found anything better.  I tried one 
Fletcher sample with a fat cutting head, and couldn't stand the fatness 
of the head.

I really think though, people like whatever they are most familiar with. 
 It doesn't really matter who makes it, or how much it costs, or even 
the quality of the tool.  So many of new stained glass people do it for 
6 weeks and then drop out that quality doesn't matter in the least.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 16:02:05 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 1996 18:58:52 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov3.135852.0>
References: <<1996Nov3.74951.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> i did'nt know inland made glass cutters, i've had there irons, (big
> disapointment). i use and have always used, in one form or another,
> fletcher cutters, nothing else will do. i found toyo is expensive an
> leaks, (at least the pistol grip). and although i mentioned lots of
> times before i prefer large inland grinders. BTW what were the problems
> on the twinspin? since i have that grinder, i'm curious what i might
> have coming to me.  also i know it's still new, and i'm not sure if it's
> released yet, but does anyone know if the bevel pro grinder works well?
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 


On the Inland twin spin, the water reservoir was my biggest problem.  If 
I shut it off completely, it leaked out.  If I turned it on, it was way 
too much water.  If I turned it on to a trickle, it still put out way 
too much water, if I filled the reservoir up, and then it emptied too 
soon.  Because when I turned it off, it still leaked out.  I finally 
came up with my own kind of drip system, but it was a major pain in the 
butt.  Now I only drag it out for a piece that is completely straight 
lines, with no curves what so ever.  Then I can put up with it.  It 
sprays water all over the place and I have had to place extra towels on 
the front and sides of my machine, and wring them out every so often.  
It is not a pretty sight if you are trying to wait on customers 
inbetween grinding.  From now on I really recommend to my customers to 
just buy the beveling bit, and to use a strip cutter for the straight 
lines.  The twin spin is too much trouble.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 17:44:37 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!75054.2542
From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: safety
Date: 03 Nov 96 20:43:19 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.14319.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Kristen wrote:

> Do glass companies have MSDS for the glass that they produce. <

Manufacturers or suppliers of any product with any potential for toxicity 
that is cut, ground, or treated in any way in which it can subsequenly get 
into the body must provide users that have employees with  MSDSs by law 
(29 CFR 1012.1200).  Glass, wood, solder, welding rods, metals that are 
machined or ground, grind wheels, compressed gasses, and so on--all must have 
MSDSs.

> Some of the metals in glass are not good for you when they are in the dust 
> form grinding.  <

You bet.  I personally have seen MSDSs for glass.  Arsenic (whitish opaque), 
cadmium (yellow opaque), manganese (purple/brown clear), chrome (many greens 
and yellows), lead, and just about any toxic metal known can be found in 
colored glasses.

> If they do do you know who I can contact for these MSDS sheets. <

The manufacturer or importer is the responsible party.  Also, anyone who puts 
their label on glass with their company's name and address on it becomes 
the manufacturer of record and is likewise responsible.

> AS well, Elizabeth mentioned that you sent her MSDS sheets for glass
> products. May I also have a copy these sheets. I will pay for copying
> and snail mail. or if you can send the addresses where you received
> these sheets from IO will contact them myself. <

The manufacturer/importer usually supplies them free.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Sun Nov  3 18:51:09 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: I live in England; where is UK?? Or is it the other way roun
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 03:20:45 +0000
Message-ID: <199611040248.CAA01292@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Martin (Streng)!
Welcome aboard!!! Am delighted for another voice from Europe. Trust 
you have come across Greg from Poland (Are you still there Greg!!??)
I am the poor "sucker" that started this "date discussion". (Why 
always ME...:-(  )
I put my foot in it, forgetting that in USA they do some things back 
to front, got picked up on it, teased about it.  They're a nice bunch 
and some of them will be over HERE (!!) in the next 6 months.
You work in stained glass in the Netherlands...? Great, where do you 
get your get your glass? Germany? France? Belgium? Poland?
Copperfoil or lead??
It is perfectly true what you say, that in USA Health & Safety issues 
are very much more of an issue than they are here in Europe But don't 
be fooled, these issues will hit us too like a bang. I don't know if 
you have been "lurking" for some time, before speaking up. If you 
have, then you will also realize that there are some real issues to 
be taken on board. This is particularly true in England (or is it UK 
- or is it Britain, or even Great Britain ?? Hey Albert, I dunno 
anymore where I live. I'm just a poor ole' little Viking refugee, 
slumming it on this strange little island... Where the hell AM I??)

Yeah, I picked up Albert on the point of "International" some months 
ago (as in IGGA). Albert (bless his cotton socks) is working very 
hard on trying to make it, what I would call "International" ( I see 
that you agree with my definitions...). In the final analysis, I 
think it will take people like you, Greg and myself out there to 
speak up and MAKE it "International". When an 
English-as-a-mother-tongue- speaker calls something "International", 
I have long since learnt to be a little weary of what this actually 
entails.
But this is a disadvantage you, Greg and myself  as 
non-English-as-a-mother-tongue-speakers  will always be up against.
But let me tell you this, they're a really lovely bunch! They even 
occasionally forget that I am as "foreign" as they come. English to 
me is a "foreign" language. My life revolves around a) stained glass, 
b) communication and c) language (foreign or otherwhise...)
Now and then, I get on my soap-box and pontificate about one or all 
of these subjects.
Which reminds me: grinders:
About 15-17 years ago I bought a Wizard deluxe . It grinds. That is 
what I want it to do. It still does it perfectly well. It doesn't make 
the coffee, nor does it make me my breakfast. And it certainly does 
not sing and dance. It was supplied with bits and pieces and 
attachements and accessories. I still have not quite worked out what 
they all do.. I have a few 
other manual and electrical grinding tools for various specific jobs. 
I try and cut glass in such a way that electrical grinding should be 
a safety aspect rather than adjusting for bad glass cutting.(I can 
hear the storm of protests rising already...)My Wizard still 
functions perfectly well and so I'll probably stick with it.

I also use Toyo glass cutters of various sizes. They are the ones I 
have found most reliable. The smaller ones, (retailer described as 
"an ideal cutter for lady stained glass workers") snapped or cracked 
in the same way as already described by a number of postings. I had a 
metal-working student design and fit a metal sleeve onto my "teaching 
cutters" to prevent this happening.
The very heavy duty Toyo cutter I myself use in my studio, I have 
used for about 5 years. I have replaced the cutting head once, but I 
am now finding that it is -very gently - beginning to bend.(the 
plastic bit).
Some of my students are retired and take up stained glass purely as 
a hobby. Their hands are beginning to get a little bit stiff and 
occasionally arthritic. I have tried out the Toyo pistol grip cutter  
for possibly recommending to them. But I am not terribly 
impressed.The leaking problem has already been mentioned, to which I 
concur. Another problem I have found is that the head doesn't turn 
properly in the direction you  want it to go and so your score-line 
becomes ragged and not a clean one. So you need to use your other 
fingers to guide the head. A bit of a trial if you have chosen that 
particular cutter because you have arthritis in your hands & 
fingers....
Soldering irons: I have to practice what I preach, which means that I 
have a whole collection of soldering irons, 90% by Weller. They are 
an excellent beginner's, hobbyist's iron .I also feel that they are a 
tool a professional need not be ashamed of.  Again my very first 
Weller 75W electric iron that I bought about 20 years ago, is still 
alive and kicking and very much in use. I can't use gas irons in 
teaching (no facilities) and in my village we just didn't have gas 
until a few years ago. (Bottle gas: Health & safety, storage etc 
etc....)
I have 1-2 very private, personal favorite irons. They never travel 
to class; they are rather special. They are powerful, real exquisite 
electric engineering and exceedingly light-weight (and expensive).
 They are also "no 
longer produced". Why does that always happen to the "dream tool"??
Shut up Elisabeth & go to bed....
2.30 in the morning over here "Across the pond" (an hour earlier in 
the Netherlands....)

Toby  (The only one with at least one eye open...)
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 05:38:15 1996
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From:         mail <HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
To:           glass@bungi.com
Subject:      Re: First stitches (fwd)
Date:         Mon, 04 Nov 96 08:33:09 EST
Message-ID:   <961104.083737.EST.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

May I second Monona's concern?  Latex allergies are becoming a huge problem
in medicine, not only for medical personnel, but for patients with
frequent hospitalizations.  We're not just talking uncomfortable rash here,
but life-threatening anaphylactic shock.  Do yourself a big favor and
and try to limit your latex exposure.
Dorothy Kalahan

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
----------------------------Original message----------------------------
From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: 02 Nov 96 07:59:26 EST



> Try a product by American bandage. Also by others I am sure. It is a
> gauze that is impregnated with natural rubber.<

I'd rather it was impregnated with a synthetic considering the track record
of natural rubber in the medical/dental industry in terms of serious
allergies.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
Board IGGA
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2596     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 07:33:18 1996
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X-Path: Wittenberg.EDU!CUTLER
From: CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU
To: GLASS@BUNGI.COM
Subject: lampbase sizes
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 10:32:37 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.63237.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

From: Bob Cutler
I have nearly finished a 13in diameter/8 inch high lampshade and I am pondering
the mysteries of which base height to use.  Some time ago I think I recall
seeing a note on this subject, but I have lost track of it.
So is there a "rule of thumb" that one should follow in selecting bases for
different diameter/height shades?  Can anybody give me some suggestions
about how to proceed?    Thanks in advance for any help :)
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 08:19:12 1996
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:18:42 PST
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Precedence: bulk

[In the message entitled "lampbase sizes" on Nov  4, 10:32, CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU writes:]
> From: Bob Cutler
> I have nearly finished a 13in diameter/8 inch high lampshade and I am pondering
> the mysteries of which base height to use.  Some time ago I think I recall
> seeing a note on this subject, but I have lost track of it.
> So is there a "rule of thumb" that one should follow in selecting bases for
> different diameter/height shades?  Can anybody give me some suggestions
> about how to proceed?    Thanks in advance for any help :)

I think I recall my teacher saying to measure across the bottom of the
shade.  That number being about the height of the lamp base.
Should look proportional.

Hope this helps.



-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 08:43:10 1996
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From: FEFranks <frogfoot@newtech.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 11:41:45 +0000
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961104114145.0067a840@POP3.newtech.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 05:45 PM 10/30/96 -0500, you wrote:
>mail wrote:
>> 
>> I have noticed that after working for years with stained glass, I hardly
>> notice the small cuts on my hands.  I just try to keep the blood off
>> stuff and keep the cut clean.  There is no  such thing as too much
>> Neosporin and too many bandages!  (NEVER had an infection, BTW.
>> Now I knock on wood.)
>> 
>> --
>> Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
>> UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
>> HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>yeah generally that's what most people that's been doing stained glass
>for while says. i don't care if i get cut, generally i don't even notice
>it, until i see blood getting on the glass. i only hate it when i get
>blood on the pattern or the foil. personnaly i can't wear bandaids on
>any of my fingers, no grip. i just let it bleed out, unless of course
>it's a real bleeder, then it'll take a bit longer. usally the main
>places i get cut is my pushing thumb (for grining), or the pointer
>finger of my left hand, when breaking glass. and of course the little
>"fun" bits that are around.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
As a nurse it is important for to avoid small cuts on my hands. It is not a
good idea to give all those nasty little viruses an entry point into my
body. Borrowing from my specialty, orthopedic surgery, I began to wear
rubber gloves while cutting and grinding. I found that Playtex cleaning
gloves work well. It is important that they fit tight to your fingertips so
buy a pair that fit tight. They will stretch after awhile giving a nice fit.
They last awhile and are easy to put back on if you place alittle powder in
them when putting them back on.  I have not had a cut on my hands in quite
some time and the rubber helps with my grip while breaking and grinding
also. Hope this helps. Remember-safety first!!

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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 10:12:06 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: grinders, M.Savad
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 13:07:30 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.13730.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

Mike, we have using the Glastar superstar and have no problems, also DTI makes some good 
grinders. Have a good day
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 14:17:38 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 17:18:19 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.91819.0>
References: <<1.5.4.32.19961104114145.0067a840@POP3.newtech.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I've been reading the comments on gloves and have decided to unlurk.  I'm 
an environmental engineer by day and hobbyist by night.  Part of the 
environmental duties involves spills response training.  We use 
disposable acrylonitrile gloves for the spills when we're dealing with an 
unknown because of their resistance to most chemicals.  I decided to take 
a pair home with me to try for soldering.  They worked great!  The size 
small fits my hands snugly and I have no loose glove material to 
interfere.  There was no loss of tactile ability.  It allows me to enjoy 
soldering once again, before using gloves any contact with the flux would 
cause me to burn and itch (I may be sensitizing).  The acrylonitrile 
gloves have the advantage of not being made of latex and they can be used 
again and again.  A box of 100 costs me approximately $25 Cdn and I buy 
them at one of the local safety supply stores.  I see that we've got an 
industrial hygienist on this list.  Any objections to acrylonitrile?  
Sometimes things are too good to be true and perhaps this is so with 
these gloves?

Thanks much,

Sandy Willis
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 15:24:33 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Beginning hobbyist needs a glass grinder recommendation
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 18:23:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.132311.0>
References: <<1996Nov3.135852.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> >
> > i did'nt know inland made glass cutters, i've had there irons, (big
> > disapointment). i use and have always used, in one form or another,
> > fletcher cutters, nothing else will do. i found toyo is expensive an
> > leaks, (at least the pistol grip). and although i mentioned lots of
> > times before i prefer large inland grinders. BTW what were the problems
> > on the twinspin? since i have that grinder, i'm curious what i might
> > have coming to me.  also i know it's still new, and i'm not sure if it's
> > released yet, but does anyone know if the bevel pro grinder works well?
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> 
> On the Inland twin spin, the water reservoir was my biggest problem.  If
> I shut it off completely, it leaked out.  If I turned it on, it was way
> too much water.  If I turned it on to a trickle, it still put out way
> too much water, if I filled the reservoir up, and then it emptied too
> soon.  Because when I turned it off, it still leaked out.  I finally
> came up with my own kind of drip system, but it was a major pain in the
> butt.  Now I only drag it out for a piece that is completely straight
> lines, with no curves what so ever.  Then I can put up with it.  It
> sprays water all over the place and I have had to place extra towels on
> the front and sides of my machine, and wring them out every so often.
> It is not a pretty sight if you are trying to wait on customers
> inbetween grinding.  From now on I really recommend to my customers to
> just buy the beveling bit, and to use a strip cutter for the straight
> lines.  The twin spin is too much trouble.
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the way i solved the problem with the drippage is this, i tapped into my
water pipe, and now have a continous drip feed. of course this makes
even more soaked, but every new toy has it's problems.  :)

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 15:28:42 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 18:27:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.132723.0>
References: <<1996Nov4.63237.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU wrote:
> 
> From: Bob Cutler
> I have nearly finished a 13in diameter/8 inch high lampshade and I am pondering
> the mysteries of which base height to use.  Some time ago I think I recall
> seeing a note on this subject, but I have lost track of it.
> So is there a "rule of thumb" that one should follow in selecting bases for
> different diameter/height shades?  Can anybody give me some suggestions
> about how to proceed?    Thanks in advance for any help :)
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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welp, the base diameter should be about half or a little larger then the
diameter of the shade. the height depends on how tall the shade is and
how high you want it to be.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov  4 19:31:28 1996
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From: CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 22:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Nov4.182940.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

From: Cutler on lampbase altitudes.
OK, a base bottom should be 71/2 inches in diameter or thereabouts.
The height of the shade is 8 inches.  How high do I want
the bse to be?  High enough but not too high are rather general
boundaries.  And since these things are a bit of money I would like
to avoid buying one that doesn't get it.  :)  Perhaps some clarification
would help me figure things out.  The harp altitude is another
issue related to my original question.  I'm still puzzled.  
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 04:04:20 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 07:01:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.2112.0>
References: <<1996Nov4.182940.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU wrote:
> 
> From: Cutler on lampbase altitudes.
> OK, a base bottom should be 71/2 inches in diameter or thereabouts.
> The height of the shade is 8 inches.  How high do I want
> the bse to be?  High enough but not too high are rather general
> boundaries.  And since these things are a bit of money I would like
> to avoid buying one that doesn't get it.  :)  Perhaps some clarification
> would help me figure things out.  The harp altitude is another
> issue related to my original question.  I'm still puzzled.
> ----


I usually tell my students to finish the lamp shade first, then try it 
on several lamp bases.  We have special ordered ones that were suggested 
to go with certain lamp shades and when they arrived, just thought the 
proportion was not quite right.  It all depends on the proportion of the 
lamp shade itself, if it is tall and skinny, or short and fat.  Lots of 
times I can make a lampbase work, that doesnt in the beginning by 
changing the harp size, or adding risers to the top.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran

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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 06:47:34 1996
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From: gshultz@mail.smu.edu (Gary Shultz)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:46:07 -0600
Message-ID: <v01530501aea50321f9c8@[129.119.37.12]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Very generally speaking, I have liked the "look" the best when the base is
about half the width of the bottom of the shade and the heighth of the
based -- from the top of the harp to the bottom of the base -- is about
twice the height of the shade.

=Gary



>From: Cutler on lampbase altitudes.
>OK, a base bottom should be 71/2 inches in diameter or thereabouts.
>The height of the shade is 8 inches.  How high do I want
>the bse to be?  High enough but not too high are rather general
>boundaries.  And since these things are a bit of money I would like
>to avoid buying one that doesn't get it.  :)  Perhaps some clarification
>would help me figure things out.  The harp altitude is another
>issue related to my original question.  I'm still puzzled.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


      ~(~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)~
    ~~~) Gary Shultz - SMU News and Information (~~~
  ~~~~~( Tele. 214-768-7665   Fax: 214-768-7663 )~~~~~
~~~~~~~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~~


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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 07:17:13 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: lampbase sizes
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:15:40 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.51540.0>
References: <<1996Nov4.182940.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU wrote:
> 
> From: Cutler on lampbase altitudes.
> OK, a base bottom should be 71/2 inches in diameter or thereabouts.
> The height of the shade is 8 inches.  How high do I want
> the bse to be?  High enough but not too high are rather general
> boundaries.  And since these things are a bit of money I would like
> to avoid buying one that doesn't get it.  :)  Perhaps some clarification
> would help me figure things out.  The harp altitude is another
> issue related to my original question.  I'm still puzzled.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


ok the base diameter should be around 4" the height depends on what kind
of base you get, some come with a built in harp so dont.  the height of
the base from bottom to tippy top (including harp, if there is one),
should be around 16-18" total. this way you'll have the 8 or so inches
for the harp (providing the cap you use is'nt to deep), and about 8 or
so inches that will be exposed on the bottom. then you'll have to decide
how much of the base you really want to see, if the designed part goes
to the edge of the lamp, or if it should be hidden a little bit.  when i
built my table lamp, i did'nt want to spend the high prices of the
bases, so i made my own glass base.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 08:57:25 1996
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From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:   Lampbase Sizes 
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 10:50:12 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.45012.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hey, Hey Cutler and gang!

Here is my scientific, high-tech approach to selecting the perfect
lampbase for those extra special stained glass shades:

Find someone that has a really fat life insurance policy (with you as
benefactor) and ask him/her to hold the lampshade above the table where
you will wish it to eventually sit.  Using your mind's eye (the one that
sees dreams), envision the "invisible" base below the shade. When you
see the shade at the perfect height above the table, measure from the
lower edge of the shade to the tabletop.  This will give you the darned
near perfect base height.

Now, let's discuss the harp size.  This, in my opinion, is the most
important measurement.  No one wants to look at a beautiful lamp and see
"lamp guts" spilling from the bottom of the shade.  My suggestion for an
8" tall shade is to use a 7" harp.

As you can probably tell by now, lampbase height selection is a matter
of personal taste.  I have made shades using the exact same mold size to
make table lamps and floor lamps with equally satisfying results.

Might I also suggest that you set aside a few bucks for a perfect finial
to top off that perfect lamp.  Nothing worse than seeing a beautiful
creation topped by a crappy finial.  Reminds me of a lady wearing an
expensive cocktail dress with flip-flops....ACK!!!

Have a day!!!
Shirley Suter
Grapeland, Tx.
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 11:42:52 1996
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From: krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu (Kathe R. McDonald)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Easter Visit to Chartres in France - UPDATE
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199611051942.LAA24151@peseta.ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi. I'm trying to change my ticket but am a bit confused about when you are
all leaving UK.  4-5 days before April 2?  Does that mean March 28?

Kathe R. McDonald
Office of Curricular Support
"Aint no time to hate." J. Garcia 1995


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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 13:17:18 1996
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From: nancy lynberg <cavu7@atl.mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: tips for warming glass
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:48:36 -0500
Message-ID: <199611052113.QAA20753@itchy.mindspring.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks

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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 15:07:45 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 17:28:30 -0500
Message-ID: <327FBF8E.116D@mars.superlink.net>
References: <<199611052113.QAA20753@itchy.mindspring.com>>
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nancy lynberg wrote:
> 
> now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
> anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
> cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i suppose you can heat up the garage with a space heater (the electric
kind, so you don't affixiate yourself with a kerosene one). or you can
get a large heating tray and place your glass on that before cutting,
that's realted to the hint too warm the glass prior to foiling. you can
fill a large tub with hot (tap-hot) water and put the glass in that. you
can keep the colors your going to use in the warm part of the house,
then bring them out before you need them. though the best thng to do is
to set up an inside shop if you can like in the basement, if you have
one.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 15:43:33 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: First stitches
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 18:48:02 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.10482.0>
References: <<1996Nov4.91819.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  Cdn and I buy them at one of the local safety supply stores.  I see that we've got an industrial hygienist on this list.  Any objections to 
acrylonitrile? Sometimes things are too good to be true and perhaps this 
is so with these gloves?
 
> Sandy Willis
>

Hi, 

Where or what address to get gloves?  April
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 15:54:33 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Fume trap
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 18:57:39 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.105739.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Monona and all,

Inland 5" x 6d" x 5"h fume trap with charcoal filter. #6006 replacement 
cartridges. Not much else to say about it exceptit's not worth it. I 
liked Steve S.'s  kitchen hood exhaust idea. I can easily remove one 8x8 
section in the window for outside venting.       April
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 16:17:20 1996
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From: "J. Hendershott" <jhendershott@macnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 16:19:26 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.81926.0>
References: <<327FBF8E.116D@mars.superlink.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> nancy lynberg wrote:
> >
> > now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
> > anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
> > cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks

Nancy
The easiest way I've found is to use a hair dryer just before you are
ready to cut. I sometimes warm a tricky piece of glass even in my warm
studio. Try to warm it evenly if your working on a large piece.

Janie
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 17:55:03 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Fume trap
Date: Tue, 05 Nov 1996 20:48:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov5.154832.0>
References: <<1996Nov5.105739.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

April Paine wrote:
> 
> Hi Monona and all,
> 
> Inland 5" x 6d" x 5"h fume trap with charcoal filter. #6006 replacement
> cartridges. Not much else to say about it exceptit's not worth it. I
> liked Steve S.'s  kitchen hood exhaust idea. I can easily remove one 8x8
> section in the window for outside venting.       April
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

yeah i have to agree with the inland fume trap, i have one does'nt work
at all well, i probably should have gotten the hakko. although the hood
idea should work really well, the only draw back i see is that it draws
the fume upward towards your face. unless of course the hood is a bit
away from you.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 17:55:07 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:   Lampbase Sizes 
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 02:23:26 +0000
Message-ID: <199611060150.BAA22825@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 those extra special stained glass shades:

Find someone that has a really fat life insurance policy (with you as
benefactor)  <snip>.  Using your mind's eye (the one that
sees dreams), envision the "invisible" base below the shade. When you
see the shade at the perfect height above the table, measure from the
lower edge of the shade to the tabletop.  This will give you the darned
near perfect base height.

Now, let's discuss the harp size.  This, in my opinion, is the most
important measurement.  No one wants to look at a beautiful lamp and see
"lamp guts" spilling from the bottom of the shade.  My suggestion for an
8" tall shade is to use a 7" harp.
<snip>.  Nothing worse than seeing a beautiful
creation topped by a crappy finial.  Reminds me of a lady wearing an
expensive cocktail dress with flip-flops....ACK!!!

Have a day!!!
Shirley Suter


Yep, that about sums it up Shirley!
That's about my own carefully researched and scientific approach 
also, on the few rare occasions I attempt a lamp (or teach how to 
make them).
Eloquently put!!
Good on You!
Why just have a day - have a ball!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 17:56:09 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Easter Visit to Chartres in France - UPDATE
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 02:23:26 +0000
Message-ID: <199611060150.BAA22831@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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From:          krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu (Kathe R. McDonald)
To:            glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Re: Easter Visit to Chartres in France - UPDATE
Date:          Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:42:00 -0800 (PST)
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com

Hi. I'm trying to change my ticket but am a bit confused about when you are
all leaving UK.  4-5 days before April 2?  Does that mean March 28?

Kathe R. McDonald
Office of Curricular Support
"Aint no time to hate." J. Garcia 1995

Hi Kathe,
Hope to dispel confusion;

UK Party is leaving UK morning on Wednesday 2nd April ( exact time yet to be 
determined) for France; arrival Calais in France around noon on Wed. 
2nd; arrival Chartres early/ mid evening Wednesday 2nd April;
Staying over-night Chartres: Wednesday 2nd, Thursday 3rd, Friday 4th 
April; Travel back to UK on Saturday 5th April; arrival back at 
departure point in UK early/late evening Ssaturaday 5th  April; 
transfer of all non-UK visitors to  over-night accommodation.
>From Sunday 6th April fun in UK can start (if  we hadn't already 
painted the town red BEFORE 2nd April...)....

So far there are about 3-4 of of you from Glass@Bungi either saving 
up or having already paid your tickets.....It is quite a financial 
commitment you are doing. We are initially concentrating on saving 
YOUR pennies by  accommodating you here locally (about 40 miles 
north of London), hopefully for nothing other than the pleasure of 
having you with us, but at worst  at local bed and breakfast 
accommodation, with at least a guarantee of a decent home-cooked 
Swedish meal..... and  a lift into London...... and/or whatever else.
You are not coming into a 5-Star Hilton International Hotel Chain here, but 
a regional, village and family ambience . If you can get here, we 
will do our best to look after you, keep you safe, happy and healthy 
and make sure you don't  spend a penny more than you have to.
Travelling is an expensive business - I should know - I have spent 35 
years doing nothing else...
Each and every one of you, who would like to come over, but have 
specific questions or problems, do feel free to e-mail me privately 
and ask. What have you got to loose. ....
Lee Boe of "Rain-Boe Creations"  has already contacted me to let me 
know that she has details of cheap air-fares from USA to Europe & UK.
You will need to set aside approx. UK Sterling 150.oo for transport 
from UK to Chartres, accommodation there for 3 nights,, breakfasts and transport 
back to the UK.  We in UK normally pay UK Sterling 90 approx just 
for a return flight to Paris with nothing else - just the flight..

Whoever can make it, we sure as hell are going to have a ball.... 

Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov  5 19:18:51 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Food Bowl
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 22:17:56 -0500
Message-ID: <199611060317.WAA18509@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

        I've just decided to make a stained glass strawberry bowl (from
"Stained Glass Gifts" by Judy Miller, pub. Hidden House Publications, 1982)
for a friend for Christmas.  I plan to solder it with lead-free solder but
am in a quandry as to what, if anything, to do about colouring the solder
and protecting it.  My questions are:
        1. Is there any special technique to soldering with lead-free
material (ie. higher or lower iron temp., different flux etc.)?
        2. Is lead-free solder safe to use in a bowl that will hold fruit
and such things (rather than runny liquids)
        3. Can I use any kind of patination on the solder or am I just
cancelling out the safety of using lead-free solder?
        4. Whether I patinate or leave the solder lines silver, can I spray
or brush them with some kind of laquer, varethane, or shellac?
        I guess most of my questions are directed to Monona, but if anyone
else has any comments, I'd appreciate them.  Jennifer

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 02:04:35 1996
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From: jroey@juno.com (Jerri M Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 02:23:23 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.72323.0>
References: <<199611052113.QAA20753@itchy.mindspring.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

	My shop area is over the garage and it gets pretty cold up here. 
I bring the electric space heater up and warm up my glass in front of it.
 This idea just hit me last week when I pulled out the heater to place in
the bathroom.  (I'm a real sissy about showering in a COLD bathroom.)  It
worked great. 

Jerri



On Mon, 04 Nov 1996 15:48:36 -0500 nancy lynberg
<cavu7@atl.mindspring.com> writes:
>now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, 
>can
>anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate 
>easier
>cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 06:12:38 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed,  6 Nov 96 09:05:57 -0500
Message-ID: <9611060905.AA00530@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<327FBF8E.116D@mars.superlink.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
> anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
> cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks

Is cold glass really that much harder to cut than warm? Maybe I don't have
enough experience to know the difference. During cold times of year my glass is
probably around 50 F; this gives me no trouble. Never tried to cut glass colder
than this, though.

-- David C
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 06:28:10 1996
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From: gshultz@mail.smu.edu (Gary Shultz)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:26:57 -0600
Message-ID: <v01530500aea64f794f55@[129.119.37.12]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>nancy lynberg wrote:
>>
>> now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
>> anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
>> cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks
>>

I have a light table that uses incandescent bulbs instead of florescent
and, as you might expect, the surface stays fairly warm.  When I used to
work in my garage, it was great for keeping my glass -- and my coffee or
tea -- warm. Such a light table is fairly easy to make. Let me know if you
want details on how to make one.

=Gary


      ~(~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)~
    ~~~) Gary Shultz - SMU News and Information (~~~
  ~~~~~( Tele. 214-768-7665   Fax: 214-768-7663 )~~~~~
~~~~~~~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~~


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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 06:53:16 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:54:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.45417.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Gary, I'm sure interested in how you made your light table. Please post particulars. Thanks, Linda

I have a light table that uses incandescent bulbs instead of florescent
and, as you might expect, the surface stays fairly warm.  When I used to
work in my garage, it was great for keeping my glass -- and my coffee or
tea -- warm. Such a light table is fairly easy to make. Let me know if you
want details on how to make one.

=Gary


      

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 07:08:27 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 10:06:52 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.5652.0>
References: <<199611060317.WAA18509@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         I've just decided to make a stained glass strawberry bowl (from
> "Stained Glass Gifts" by Judy Miller, pub. Hidden House Publications, 1982)
> for a friend for Christmas.  I plan to solder it with lead-free solder but
> am in a quandry as to what, if anything, to do about colouring the solder
> and protecting it.  My questions are:
>         1. Is there any special technique to soldering with lead-free
> material (ie. higher or lower iron temp., different flux etc.)?
>         2. Is lead-free solder safe to use in a bowl that will hold fruit
> and such things (rather than runny liquids)
>         3. Can I use any kind of patination on the solder or am I just
> cancelling out the safety of using lead-free solder?
>         4. Whether I patinate or leave the solder lines silver, can I spray
> or brush them with some kind of laquer, varethane, or shellac?
>         I guess most of my questions are directed to Monona, but if anyone
> else has any comments, I'd appreciate them.  Jennifer
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well i would'nt trust lead free solder for direct food contact. if you
use opaque glass you could probably get away with spraying the inside
with polyurethane. but probably the safest thing to do is, is to get a
cheap glass bowl, and put stained glass around it, and still solder it
with lead free.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 07:11:27 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 10:10:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.5104.0>
References: <<9611060905.AA00530@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> > now that winter is rapidly on the way, and my shop is in the garage, can
> > anyone give any tips on keeping the glass warm so as to facilitate easier
> > cutting?  any and all ideas are most appreciated. thanks
> 
> Is cold glass really that much harder to cut than warm? Maybe I don't have
> enough experience to know the difference. During cold times of year my glass is
> probably around 50 F; this gives me no trouble. Never tried to cut glass colder
> than this, though.
> 
> -- David C
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

basically i find it does'nt make a 'big' difference if it's hot or cold.
though being cold tends to make it a little more brittle, like if you
freeze taffy, it could shatter if you drop it, but when it's warm it's
pliable. must be the structure of the glass or something.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 07:52:02 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Wed,  6 Nov 96 10:47:52 -0500
Message-ID: <9611061047.AA06386@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<1996Nov6.5652.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> well i would'nt trust lead free solder for direct food contact. if you
> use opaque glass you could probably get away with spraying the inside
> with polyurethane. but probably the safest thing to do is, is to get a
> cheap glass bowl, and put stained glass around it, and still solder it
> with lead free.

Why not? It's used in plumbing, isn't it? Of course, there's just water running
through the pipes, not potentially acidic food.

I personally would not hesitate using such a bowl myself, but might have
reservations selling it.

-- David C.
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 08:14:24 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 11:12:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.61256.0>
References: <<9611061047.AA06386@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> > well i would'nt trust lead free solder for direct food contact. if you
> > use opaque glass you could probably get away with spraying the inside
> > with polyurethane. but probably the safest thing to do is, is to get a
> > cheap glass bowl, and put stained glass around it, and still solder it
> > with lead free.
> 
> Why not? It's used in plumbing, isn't it? Of course, there's just water running
> through the pipes, not potentially acidic food.
> 
> I personally would not hesitate using such a bowl myself, but might have
> reservations selling it.
> 
> -- David C.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

plumbing solder is 95/5 which makes it a little pasty (i think) to work
with, plus in older homes, though it was 50-50 there is'nt as much
contact as there would be with fruit. if it were candy i'd probably say
go for it, but fruit, acidic, etc. there could be lead leached out.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 08:18:57 1996
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From: schumachera@pcmail.uni-trier.de
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 12:21:45 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.42145.0>
References: <<1996Nov6.5104.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> though being cold tends to make it a little more brittle, like if you
> freeze taffy, it could shatter if you drop it, but when it's warm it's
> pliable. must be the structure of the glass or something.


Mike's right, Remember that glass is a super cooled liquid. In one of my
chem. classes we were discussing Non-Newtonian liquids, taffy and glass
were both mentioned. 
A non-Newtonian liquid flows when slowly pulled, but breaks if pulled
apart quickly, but they never cristalize. The difference between the
taffy and glass is their melting points. But just as taffy pulls much
easier when heated, glass does the same thing. 

Besides a taffy pull there was another experiment we did in school to
show  the properties of non-Newton fluids.

mix water with corn starch until the corn starch is just fully wet
(don't over do the HOH or it won't work correctly).
Then play with it.
It will form into a ball, but if you let it go in your hands it oozes
through you fingers. If you pull it slowly it stretches, but it you pull
it fast it breaks.

Have fun,


-- 
[ Kristen                                                      ]       
[ wrightk5@pilot.msu.edu                                       ]
[                                                              ]
[ I speak for my self and only represent everything that I am. ]
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 10:24:42 1996
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X-Path: voyager.net!delphigl
From: delphigl@voyager.net (Delphi Stained Glass)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:23:47 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199611061823.NAA21353@vixa.voyager.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

David,

>Why not? It's used in plumbing, isn't it? Of course, there's just water running
>through the pipes, not potentially acidic food.
>
>I personally would not hesitate using such a bowl myself, but might have
>reservations selling it.

The point behind lead-free solder is that it doesn't contain lead, but this
doesn't guarantee the metal composition of the solder.  I would hate to
think that it may contain arsenic.

Stephanie
______________________________________________________________________
Stephanie Braman       **  E-mail:  delphigl@voyager.net
Delphi Stained Glass   **  WWW:     http://www.voyager.net/delphiglass
2116 E. Michigan Ave.  **  Voice:   1-800-248-2048 (USA,Canada)
Lansing, MI  48912     **           1-517-482-2617 (International)
USA                    **  Fax:     1-800-748-0374 (USA,Canada)
                                    1-517-482-4028 (International)
_____________________________________________________________________

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 10:52:24 1996
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X-Path: ll.mit.edu!cogen
From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl, and: Is there 3-D lead came?
Date: Wed,  6 Nov 96 13:47:33 -0500
Message-ID: <9611061347.AA15597@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<199611061823.NAA21353@vixa.voyager.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> The point behind lead-free solder is that it doesn't contain lead, but this
> doesn't guarantee the metal composition of the solder.  I would hate to
> think that it may contain arsenic.

The main ingredients are tin and antimony, I believe. I wonder how long before
the realize that antimony is just as toxic as lead?


Other question: Does anyone make a lead came with a cross section like this:

----------
|
|    -----
|   |
|   |
|   |


or like this:

---------------
     
-----     -----
     |   |
     |   |
     |   |


or like this:

     |   |
     |   |
     |   |
-----     -----
     
-----     -----
     |   |
     |   |
     |   |


It seems that these would be nice for making 3 dimensional glass objects -- at
least if they were composed of right angles. 


-- David C.


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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 11:38:41 1996
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From: "Ken Lerner" <lernerk@smtplink.dis.anl.gov>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re[2]: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 96 13:30:56 CST
Message-ID: <9610068473.AA847316375@smtplink.dis.anl.gov>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

     Its the chemistry angle that makes me skeptical:  Given that the glass 
     doesn't actually soften until it reaches a much much higher 
     temperature, why should a few degrees one way or the other make a 
     difference?  In other words, the difference between 50 degrees and 75 
     degrees is significant for us people (fahrenheit, sorry, rest of the 
     world) but it seems to me it shouldn't be too significant for the 
     glass, since it doesn't actually soften until -- maybe 2000 degrees?  
     Is there any rigorous research on this?


______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Author:  glass@bungi.com at SMTPLINK-EID
Date:    11/6/96 11:09 AM


> though being cold tends to make it a little more brittle, like if you
> freeze taffy, it could shatter if you drop it, but when it's warm it's
> pliable. must be the structure of the glass or something.


Mike's right, Remember that glass is a super cooled liquid. In one of my
chem. classes we were discussing Non-Newtonian liquids, taffy and glass
were both mentioned. 
A non-Newtonian liquid flows when slowly pulled, but breaks if pulled
apart quickly, but they never cristalize. The difference between the
taffy and glass is their melting points. But just as taffy pulls much
easier when heated, glass does the same thing. 

Besides a taffy pull there was another experiment we did in school to
show  the properties of non-Newton fluids.

mix water with corn starch until the corn starch is just fully wet
(don't over do the HOH or it won't work correctly).
Then play with it.
It will form into a ball, but if you let it go in your hands it oozes
through you fingers. If you pull it slowly it stretches, but it you pull
it fast it breaks.

Have fun,


-- 
[ Kristen                                                      ]       
[ wrightk5@pilot.msu.edu                                       ]
[                                                              ]
[ I speak for my self and only represent everything that I am. ]
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 13:37:49 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: acrylonitrile gloves
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 16:38:31 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.83831.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi April,

I don't know whether it's because I live in an industrial town (home of 
GM Canada) or whether all towns have safety stores.  I went into the 
Yellow Pages of the phone book and looked up Safety Equipment.  That's 
where I found the local equipment suppliers.  A couple of them 
didn't stock the gloves but were quite willing to order them for me.  
There are many other suppliers out there and it may be cheaper to buy 
from a mail order company but by the time I pay duties, shipping, etc. I 
find it easier to go local.

For Canadian sources and some American, check out:

http://www.hazmatmag.com/guide/P034.HTML 

which has a list of Canadian and American suppliers of safety equipment 
and clothes.  You might ask if they will send you a sample of their glove 
sizes.  These tend to run really snug.  Some people like that and other's 
don't.  I know Levitt-Safety and Lab Safety both carry these gloves.  Ask 
for the disposable, light blue nitrile gloves and they should understand 
what you're talking about.

For Monona, I should have been more clear, we use two pairs of these 
under a much more rugged and impermeable glove when we're doing Class A 
spills training (so far no actual Class A spills, knock on wood).

Hope this helps.  I will continue to use these for now.

Sandy
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 14:44:52 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re[2]: tips for warming
Date: 06 Nov 96 17:43:02 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.22432.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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    >world) but it seems to me it shouldn't be too significant for the
    > glass, since it doesn't actually soften until -- maybe 2000 degrees?
    >Is there any rigorous research on this?

Well, it *starts to soften about about 1100, depending on its forumla.  Some
glass will flow at 700 or so, but we're not talking about *that kind of glass,
and some won't soften until around 2800-3000, but we're not talking about that
kind of glass, either. <s>

The glass we use will be pretty soft at 1400.  At 2000 it'll be like honey in a
jar.

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 14:44:53 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: 06 Nov 96 17:42:52 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.224252.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >Why not? It's used in plumbing, isn't it? Of course, there's just water
   >running through the pipes, not potentially acidic food.

It used to be that lead was used, but not any more, methinks, not legally.
Besides, water's the "universal solvent," which is to say it'll dissolve
anything (eventually).  The collapse of the Roman Empire has been blamed on
water-borne lead, since they used lead *pipes.

   >I personally would not hesitate using such a bowl myself, but might have
   >reservations selling it.

You'd have some enormous liability problems, too.  Imagine if the customer got
sick and the illness was traced to the lead in the bowl.  Any lawyer'd have a
field day.  Why not make the bowl and solder to the bottom a plate that reads,
"For decorative use only. Do not use for food."  Then arrange a nice still life
of wax fruit. <s>

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 14:44:55 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: warming glass
Date: 06 Nov 96 17:42:53 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.224253.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >basically i find it does'nt make a 'big' difference if it's hot or cold.

Absolutely right, Mike.  Whether the glass is below freezing or over 100
degrees, its cuttability isn't affected.  In fact, the warmer the glass, the
worse the cuttability, as you say.

Now if the studio's cold, working with warmed-up glass would certainly be a lot
more *comfortable! <g>

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 15:14:47 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 18:13:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.131315.0>
References: <<9610068473.AA847316375@smtplink.dis.anl.gov>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Ken Lerner wrote:
> 
>      Its the chemistry angle that makes me skeptical:  Given that the glass
>      doesn't actually soften until it reaches a much much higher
>      temperature, why should a few degrees one way or the other make a
>      difference?  In other words, the difference between 50 degrees and 75
>      degrees is significant for us people (fahrenheit, sorry, rest of the
>      world) but it seems to me it shouldn't be too significant for the
>      glass, since it doesn't actually soften until -- maybe 2000 degrees?
>      Is there any rigorous research on this?

i don't know about rigorous, but warmer glass just works better. i guess
it's just the crystaline values of the glass. though if i heated the
glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair of scissors. :) now in
human terms (i'm assuming most of you are,those of you reading this), i
would rather go out side on a day of 50 degree's then one of 25, and i
guess glass is the same way, but when you compare it to 1000 or more, it
seems small.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 15:21:11 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: warming glass
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 18:19:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.131938.0>
References: <<1996Nov6.224253.0>>
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >basically i find it does'nt make a 'big' difference if it's hot or cold.
> 
> Absolutely right, Mike.  Whether the glass is below freezing or over 100
> degrees, its cuttability isn't affected.  In fact, the warmer the glass, the
> worse the cuttability, as you say.
> 
> Now if the studio's cold, working with warmed-up glass would certainly be a lot
> more *comfortable! <g>
> 
> Albert
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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maybe it's not the temp. of the glass for cuttibitle reasons, but maybe
for the holder of the cutter. because if someone is cold, they may not
hold the cutter with the strenth that they would if they were warm. so a
lighter score equals a poorer break, and then it's blamed on the glass.
but when working with glass, it could'nt hurt to warm it, especially for
foiling. and in some cases the glass may be the 'brittle' kind anyway,
eg., antique, etc., and cold may disturb it more. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 15:45:53 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: eating from st. glass
Date: 06 Nov 96 18:44:32 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.234432.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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H. Taylor Buckner wrote:

        I've just decided to make a stained glass strawberry bowl (from "Stained
Glass Gifts" by Judy Miller, pub. Hidden House Publications, 1982) for a friend
for Christmas.  I plan to solder it with lead-free solder but am in a quandry as
to what, if anything, to do about colouring the solder and protecting it.  My
questions are:


>       1. Is there any special technique to soldering with lead-free > material
(ie. higher or lower iron temp., different flux etc.)? <

Each type is different, but in general, most melt at a higher temperature and
most have a narrower band of temperatures at which they are workable--in  other
words, they solidify very fast.


>       2. Is lead-free solder safe to use in a bowl that will hold fruit > and
such things (rather than runny liquids)<


You need the MSDS on the lead free.  THere are some that contain antimony  which
is almost as toxic as lead or cadmium which is more toxic than lead.   The best
ones contain combinations of silver, copper, zinc and tin.

>       3. Can I use any kind of patination on the solder or am I just >
cancelling out the safety of using lead-free solder? <


Yup.  Again, look at the MSDS.  Tellurium, antimony, and similarly toxic  metals
are out.


>       4. Whether I patinate or leave the solder lines silver, can I spray > or
brush them with some kind of laquer, varethane, or shellac? <

Those treatments will help, but only temporarily.  They usually chip or wear
off after a few years.


You also need the MSDS on the glass itself.  I find these vastly interesting.
Obviously a lead-based glass and glass colored with lead,  cadmium, or arsenic
pigments is out. Think of the glass that is in contact  with food as you would a
ceramic glaze since it behaves the same. We have  seen how lead crystal leaches
into liquids.

Two things will protect you in this transaction:

1) you are giving the piece to a friend rather than selling it and can  enclose
a card or letter explaining what the use should be; and 2) most intelligent
people will look at the irregular stained glass surface  and figure it is not
for cereal.

But you can never be sure what people will do.  And unfortunately, makers of
products are liable for damages if it can be shown that the actions of the  user
were at all reasonable.  A bowl, arguably, could be used as a bowl for almost
anything.


Whenever you think about your legal responsibility, it is good to remember  the
case in Baltimore when a man's house burned down mysteriously in  broad
daylight.  The fire started in his daughter's room.  The man remembered  that
there was a stained glass sun catcher in the window, purchased a  duplicate and
proved that the beveled piece in the center could ignite the curtain fabric in
the afternoon sun.


When you sell things, you are responsible for damages even when you could not
foresee them if the actions of the customer were reasonable.  Get insurance  and
incorporate if possible.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist 181 Thompson St., # 23 NYC 10012-2586
212/777-0062




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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 16:46:06 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: 06 Nov 96 19:44:17 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.04417.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Stephanie wrote:

> The point behind lead-free solder is that it doesn't contain lead, but this
> doesn't guarantee the metal composition of the solder.  I would hate to
> think that it may contain arsenic. <


That's very perceptive.  Lead is usually found in nature with arsenic and old 
lead solders routinely contained a percent or two of arsenic.  I noticed this 
when MSDSs first started coming out on solders. 

However the combination of MSDSs identifying arsenic to customers and 
OSHA's tough rules have made it rare to find arsenic in solders now.  

Since arsenic is a carcinogen, it also must be reported on MSDSs in 
quanities of 0.1 % or more.  So get the MSDS and see what is actually in the 
stuff.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586      212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 16:46:08 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: 06 Nov 96 19:44:30 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.04430.0>
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M. Savad wrote in part (And I'm just not about to reprint the whole thing):


> plumbing solder is 95/5 which makes it a little pasty (i think) to work
> with<


A common plumbing solder is 95% tin / 5% antimony (not lead).  The rule is no 
solder on plumbing can contain 0.2% lead or more.    But antimony is no great 
improvement over lead.


There are now other antimony-free solders on the market for plumbing that 
some people find useful for stained glass.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York, NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 16:46:09 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: 06 Nov 96 19:44:26 EST
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Albert wrote:

>  Why not make the bowl and solder to the bottom a plate that reads, >  "For
decorative use only. Do not use for food."  Then arrange a nice still >  life of
wax fruit. <s> <

That's almost exactly what is required by the FDA for lead-leaching ceramic
decorative ware.  It would keep you out of trouble for sure.

Monona

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 17:26:06 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:22:04 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961106192456.2e979db4@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hi;
        I read the grinder thread with interest, as my little glastarlet is
making strange noises.  The kind they sell here is the Diamond Max with the
horizontal disk and the upright grinding head.... no one metioned how they
were.. any ideas??  Any other suggestions are welcome!  Meg
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 17:55:41 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 20:54:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov6.155417.0>
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Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         I read the grinder thread with interest, as my little glastarlet is
> making strange noises.  The kind they sell here is the Diamond Max with the
> horizontal disk and the upright grinding head.... no one metioned how they
> were.. any ideas??  Any other suggestions are welcome!  Meg
> Richard and Meg LaVal
> apdo. 24-5655
> Monteverde
> COSTA RICA
> tel: 506 645 5052
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i don't really know how they're grinders are, but soon i'm planning to
by the bevel pro. it looks good. but if inland comes out with one i'd
probably go for that one. but knowing my track record with new toys, i
buy one and another 6 companies comes out with the thing i just bought a
month later.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 17:58:27 1996
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From: kraby@pacbell.net (Kenny Raby)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 01:55:57 GMT
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.15557.0>
References: <<1996Nov6.61256.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike,

I may be confused here but how can any fruit, no matter how acidic leach
lead out of LEAD-FREE solder?

>From Delphi's web page:

1. Solder is a tin/lead alloy with the exception of lead-free solder which
is a tin-copper alloy. 

All the discussion on the fruit bowl specified lead-free solder.


On Wed, 06 Nov 1996 11:12:56 -0500, "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
wrote:

>
>plumbing solder is 95/5 which makes it a little pasty (i think) to work
>with, plus in older homes, though it was 50-50 there is'nt as much
>contact as there would be with fruit. if it were candy i'd probably say
>go for it, but fruit, acidic, etc. there could be lead leached out.
>
>---Mike Savad
Kenny
kraby@pacbell.net
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1960

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From owner-glass Wed Nov  6 18:00:41 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: non-stained glass
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 02:29:57 +0000
Message-ID: <199611070157.BAA06112@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Mertin Streng
Thanks for your e-mail.
Will reply directly
Too tired & sleepy to think straight right now.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: 06 Nov 96 21:00:36 EST
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   >though if i heated the glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair
   >of scissors. :)

Huh?  Shirley, you jest.

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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Food Bowl
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:39:58 -0500
Message-ID: <199611070339.WAA25635@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
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        Well... the message is coming through loud and clear.  Stained glass
is not for food use.  I'm going to continue with the bowl (having started it
yesterday before posting my queries), but I'm going to make it abundantly
clear that it is ONLY for decorative purposes.  I'll probably etch a message
to that effect on the bottom with a diamond pen.  And to think that the
friend I plan to give it to is a lawyer, married to another lawyer!  I'd
planned to make others for sale if this one works out well.  I'll re-think
that now.
        Many thanks to all of you who took the time to respond.  Much
appreciated.
        Jennifer

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From: Steve Schaefer <staingls@dwave.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Fume trap
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 21:53:05 -0600
Message-ID: <199611070353.VAA14199@home.dwave.net>
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Precedence: bulk

idea should work really well, the only draw back i see is that it draws
>the fume upward towards your face. unless of course the hood is a bit
>away from you.
>
When I installed the kitchen exhaust fan, I also added an extention to the
air inlet to bring it down to the table...  I used some aluminum coil
stock..  I just bent it to fit...

Steve S.

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 03:13:34 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Food Bowl
Date: 07 Nov 96 06:12:06 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.11126.0>
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   >I'm going to continue with the bowl (having started it yesterday before
   >posting my queries), but I'm going to make it abundantly clear that it is
   >ONLY for decorative purposes.

One last thing occurs to me.  Why not design your bowl in such a way that a
clear, store-bought (Pyrex?) bowl will fit inside of it?  That way, the beauty
of the stained glass bowl is not diminished, but any food would be contained by
the "liner" bowl that's nested *inside the stained glass bowl.

As for the notice on the bottom of the stained glass bowl, its wording could be
revised to read something like, "Do not use for food storage without liner
bowl."

Just a thot.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 05:08:20 1996
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From: nancy lynberg <cavu7@atl.mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 1996 07:42:48 -0500
Message-ID: <199611071307.IAA14422@itchy.mindspring.com>
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I've had my Diamond Max for a couple of months now and have no complaints.
I'm very happy with it

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 05:55:19 1996
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:56:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.35613.0>
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Question about the horizontal disk on the Diamond Max.

How do you use the horizontal disc. I bought the thing because I like 
geometric designs and boxes and such and thought I would find lots of use 
for the big disk. I've tried it once. On the first pass I was cleaning up a 
picture frame side so I was at 90 degrees against the fence. The glass 
wanted to kick out on one side of the disk and draw into the fence on the 
other side because of the rotation of the disk, all the while bumping up 
and down. I was afraid I was going to chip the glass so Ibrought it to the 
side that pushed the glass to the fence. It quit bumping up and down and 
promptly ground a rectangular shape out of one side. Obviously, this was 
not the thing to do. But how do you control the opposing movement of the 
glass caused by the rotation of the wheel?

I'm still new to this so have patience if my terminology isn't accurate. 
Thanks,

Linda Campbell
----------
From: 	nancy lynberg[SMTP:cavu7@atl.mindspring.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, November 06, 1996 7:42 AM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	Re: Diamond Max Grinders

I've had my Diamond Max for a couple of months now and have no complaints.
I'm very happy with it

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 07:41:34 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:40:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.54013.0>
References: <<1996Nov7.15557.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Kenny Raby wrote:
> 
> Mike,
> 
> I may be confused here but how can any fruit, no matter how acidic leach
> lead out of LEAD-FREE solder?
> 
> >From Delphi's web page:
> 
> 1. Solder is a tin/lead alloy with the exception of lead-free solder which
> is a tin-copper alloy.
> 
> All the discussion on the fruit bowl specified lead-free solder.
> 
> On Wed, 06 Nov 1996 11:12:56 -0500, "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
> wrote:
> 
> >
> >plumbing solder is 95/5 which makes it a little pasty (i think) to work
> >with, plus in older homes, though it was 50-50 there is'nt as much
> >contact as there would be with fruit. if it were candy i'd probably say
> >go for it, but fruit, acidic, etc. there could be lead leached out.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> Kenny
> kraby@pacbell.net
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1960
> 
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well one factor is any other poisons that are in that solder. lead free
was mainly designed for jewelry and such not for food. the other is the
soldering iron, all this time you may have been using a lead based
solder (and most likley were), so there's some lead right there.
although not alot, there is some. the acidity in the fruits can help
disolve in minute proportions lead, antimony, poison, etc. and then rub
off onto the fruit, which is'nt good, or yummy. also even if there
was'nt any poisons at all, the fruit may have a metalic taste too
them...ewww.   :)


---Mike Savad

-- 
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 07:47:11 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:42:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.5423.0>
References: <<1996Nov7.2036.0>>
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >though if i heated the glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair
>    >of scissors. :)
> 
> Huh?  Shirley, you jest.
> 
> ----
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i'm not, and don't call me shirley... the glass should be hot enough (if
i could hold it) to cut it with scissors, after all that's what they do
after pouring the glass from a ladel to a mold.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 07:59:29 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:53:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.55331.0>
References: <<1996Nov7.35613.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Question about the horizontal disk on the Diamond Max.
> 
> How do you use the horizontal disc. I bought the thing because I like
> geometric designs and boxes and such and thought I would find lots of use
> for the big disk. I've tried it once. On the first pass I was cleaning up a
> picture frame side so I was at 90 degrees against the fence. The glass
> wanted to kick out on one side of the disk and draw into the fence on the
> other side because of the rotation of the disk, all the while bumping up
> and down. I was afraid I was going to chip the glass so Ibrought it to the
> side that pushed the glass to the fence. It quit bumping up and down and
> promptly ground a rectangular shape out of one side. Obviously, this was
> not the thing to do. But how do you control the opposing movement of the
> glass caused by the rotation of the wheel?
> 
> I'm still new to this so have patience if my terminology isn't accurate.
> Thanks,
> 
> Linda Campbell
> ----------
> From:   nancy lynberg[SMTP:cavu7@atl.mindspring.com]
> Sent:   Wednesday, November 06, 1996 7:42 AM
> To:     glass@bungi.com
> Subject:        Re: Diamond Max Grinders
> 
> I've had my Diamond Max for a couple of months now and have no complaints.
> I'm very happy with it
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
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i personally have the twin spin and have the attachments to hold the
glass upright. since the jig is towards me the glass will hold in place
pretty well. if not just hold on real good, and be sure to use plenty of
water.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 08:00:20 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 10:48:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.54841.0>
References: <<199611070339.WAA25635@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
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H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         Well... the message is coming through loud and clear.  Stained glass
> is not for food use.  I'm going to continue with the bowl (having started it
> yesterday before posting my queries), but I'm going to make it abundantly
> clear that it is ONLY for decorative purposes.  I'll probably etch a message
> to that effect on the bottom with a diamond pen.  And to think that the
> friend I plan to give it to is a lawyer, married to another lawyer!  I'd
> planned to make others for sale if this one works out well.  I'll re-think
> that now.
>         Many thanks to all of you who took the time to respond.  Much
> appreciated.
>         Jennifer
> 
> ----
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an idea though that should be safe is to do it mosiac style. and glue
the pieces to the outside of a glass bown and grout it like a mosiac. 

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 11:07:02 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Viking design
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 14:02:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.9239.0>
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I have a request from a customer for any kind of Viking design.  You all 
have been helpful in the past, so thought I would start here, in case 
someone knows of a pattern book that has anything Viking in it.  We're 
talking Nordic ships, or headpieces, not the Football team Vikings.  BTW 
the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida 
vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted duplicated, 
and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that she 
turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to 
turn down, out of sheer frustration.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 13:21:14 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Food Bowl
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:16:56 -0600
Message-ID: <199611072116.PAA04272@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
>> 
>>         Well... the message is coming through loud and clear.  Stained glass
>> is not for food use.  I'm going to continue with the bowl 

Informative thread this was. There are seemingly endless ideas around for
making stuff out of SG (*theres always something new at Ed Hoys*) I remember
one friday many moons ago after hours at the shop hangin out with some of
the guys attempting to achieve imbibement and someone said stained glass NO!
stained GLASSES! well that started it, lots of laughing and out came the
glass cutters everybody cutting circles and other shapes out of different
kinds of glass wrapping them in lead and soldering on little bridges and
forming the temple pieces we roared for hours walking the shop around
wearing those stupid things! (hey come on Monona, those were the old days)
Anyway, I don't have a clear picture of this bowl project, is it like an
upside lampshade with a flat bottom? To me it doesn't sound very suitable
for the purpose intended.  But I'll tell ya I've seen many a dynamite
slumped and fused bowl which IMHO is a far more suitable technique for an
item like this, that is if you have a kiln of course

Len


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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 13:34:44 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 15:30:29 -0600
Message-ID: <199611072130.PAA04514@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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At 02:02 PM 11/7/96 -0500, Joyce Moran wrote:
>  BTW 
>the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida 
>vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted duplicated, 
>and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that she 
>turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to 
>turn down, out of sheer frustration.
>
>Garden of Glass
>Joyce Moran


Joyce 

This lady is starting to tick me off too, send me her phone number...I'll
straighten her out ;-)

Len

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 13:54:09 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: 07 Nov 96 16:52:29 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.215229.0>
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>    >though if i heated the glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair
>    >of scissors. :)
> Huh?  Shirley, you jest.

   >i'm not, and don't call me shirley... the glass should be hot enough (if
   >i could hold it) to cut it with scissors, after all that's what they do
   >after pouring the glass from a ladel to a mold.

Oh ... you knew that joke. <s>  

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 13:54:10 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Viking design
Date: 07 Nov 96 16:52:31 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.215231.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida
   >vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted duplicated,
   >and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that she
   >turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to
   >turn down, out of sheer frustration.

Customers.  Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.  You have had a warning
about this one, IMHO.  Can you imagine now building the actual window, having it
finished, taking it to install and having her say, "well, I'd like the color of
that feather there in the middle of the panel changed to one that's a little
lighter ... and the texture of that piece is too rough
.. and, what? you want to charge extra for that?  well, I never!" <s>

Albert

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 14:30:32 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 17:29:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.12297.0>
References: <<1996Nov7.215229.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
> >    >though if i heated the glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair
> >    >of scissors. :)
> > Huh?  Shirley, you jest.
> 
>    >i'm not, and don't call me shirley... the glass should be hot enough (if
>    >i could hold it) to cut it with scissors, after all that's what they do
>    >after pouring the glass from a ladel to a mold.
> 
> Oh ... you knew that joke. <s>
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

yeah that one's been done to death...beaten into the ground... ..


---Mike Savad

-- 
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 14:46:09 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 17:50:28 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.95028.0>
References: <<1996Nov7.215231.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 


> finished, taking it to install and having her say, "well, I'd like the color of that feather there in the middle of the panel changed to one 
that's a little lighter ... and the texture of that piece is too rough
> .. and, what? you want to charge extra for that?  well, I never!" <s>
> 
> Albert

I believe I'd pass on this one. Makes me cringe. Some things aren't about 
money.  Dignity.  April
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 15:07:31 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: 07 Nov 96 18:05:34 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov7.23534.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Old jokes are the best, Mike.

Yours,

Old Albert

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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 18:19:11 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 02:48:06 +0000
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From:          "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To:            <glass@bungi.com>
Subject:       Viking design
Date:          07 Nov 96 16:52:31 EST
Reply-to:      glass@bungi.com


   >the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida
   >vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted duplicated,
   >and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that she
   >turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to
   >turn down, out of sheer frustration.

Customers.  Can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em.  You have had a warning
about this one, IMHO.  Can you imagine now building the actual window, having it
finished, taking it to install and having her say, "well, I'd like the color of
that feather there in the middle of the panel changed to one that's a little
lighter ... and the texture of that piece is too rough
.. and, what? you want to charge extra for that?  well, I never!" <s>

Albert

----
Yes Albert, all of that is perfectly true. But then again, think 
again; what WOULD we do without our customers......??
We have to strike a balance between feasibility, customer, customer 
commitment, craftsmanship and reality, and what it pays us at the 
end of the day. A tiny bi-product: how do WE as artists  learn, get 
stretched by the process...... Sometimes, just now and then, a 
night-marish project just opens up within us something we ourselves 
just didn't know was there before......
That is the chance and risk we occasionally have to take.
Some months ago,I remember posting  an e-mail into the Group about my 
own "dream commission", namely a Viking design.......
My concern with Joyce  will be that she makes sure that she charges 
the Customer/Patron enough. This is "specialized stuff". Go for it!! 
demand generously and DO NOT ACCEPT dead-lines set by Customer - 
however much you want to please. I felt the same about the Indian 
Chief design, but hadn't quite crystallized my thoughts properly 
then.
Joyce! YOU call the shots here! Your customer/patron will resepect 
you for it!! Special is special - after all!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 18:19:13 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 02:48:05 +0000
Message-ID: <199611080215.CAA32592@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Oh Joyce, Honestly!!
There is ONE VIKING you should know by now exceedingly well!!!!!
What do you need, how can I help??? E-mail me privately - if 
necessary
But first of all, buy a little time..
This subject needs serious consideration. I have been drooling about 
the opportunity to do a real Viking design for years. I really don't 
mind if it kicks off with you. 
Here you are, totally forgetting that the cantankerous European voice 
in Glass@Bungi is an old historic bolshy Swedish Viking, with a 
history degree to boot.
I have only these last couple of days been told off that my Viking 
(and heathen) history knowledge has failed to come up with details 
about heathen and Viking celebrations for the months of October and 
November - which now has sent me off to my  Swedish and Scandinavian 
research literature, for further refreshers on the matter. (Oh shit, 
why are there only 24 hours in a day!!??).
My first spontaneous thought for a stained glass Viking design is the 
Viking Long Boat. It does lend itself to stained glass very well.
I am waiting to hear more. I will help. But you need to gain time 
from your patron.
Elisabeth Margitsdotter av Sverige ( 'n Toby)
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov  7 23:57:51 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 08:53:38 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Nov8.95338.0>
References: <<199611080215.CAA32592@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Idea for a design:
Imagine a cold, wild see in blue-green colours with white accents
(etched?). In this, half hidden, a viking longboat with ragged 
sails. In the sky; Thor, with his thunder-and-lightning hammer.
Clouds of grey-white with shades of horses.
If put in a window with a tree on the background, the suggested
movement will be emphasized. I hope. 

Wish i had a scanner.....
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 05:25:18 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Food Bowl
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:24:23 -0500
Message-ID: <199611081324.IAA06936@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


        Albert,  Thanks for the suggested wording for the message on the
underside of my food bowl.  I'll try to fit it all in if there is room.  The
pattern I'm using is basically three flat sides with 3 other very narrow
strips in between, (sort of like an upsidedown panel lamp) so it won't fit
into or around any conventionaly shaped kitchen bowl.  I would give some
serious thought to using a mosaic technique for the next effort.  I've been
meaning to do some mosaic work for some time now, just haven't made time for
it yet. Again, thanks for all the comments and suggestions.  Jennifer

H. Taylor Buckner 
B.Sc., D.S.A., M.A., M.B.A., Ph.D.
Consulting Sociologist
2015 Gingras
Brigham, Quebec, Canada J0E 1J0
Phone and Fax (514) 293-4835
e-mail taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 06:39:46 1996
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From: mike  peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Found a peep-hole mate!
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 14:39:22 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov8.143922.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



Many thanks to those of you that responded to my request for peep-hole material.

I looked into several manufacturers of iridized glass (mostly Bullseye since
Mike Savad suggested it), but couldn't find anything the customer liked.
So, one of my co-workers suggested a small "door" within the panel.  As I
said, the pattern will be ala Frank Lloyd Wright, so somewhere high and
centered in the panel, I'll make a small rectangle using Y came, then make a
small door that will fit within the rectangle.  I'll use the small hinges
that are typically used for jewerly boxes, put a small knob on the opposite
side and ......viola! The customer can walk up to her front door, open the
little door in the panel and peek out!  Note:  the door insert will be
double glazed with a sheet of clear tempered plate on the exterior, the
panel with the inset door on the interior.

The customer loved it, I'm not crazy about it, but it'll be easy enough and
I feel it will be durable and complementary to the pattern.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass
Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 07:01:50 1996
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X-Path: digital.net!dti
From: Jennifer Daniels <dti@digital.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Diamond Max Grinders
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:00:14 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199611081500.KAA16656@digital.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

New diamond disks may be slightly coarse and need to be worked in.  Start by
smoothing the disk down and practicing on scrap glass.  Using a firm grip
move the glass back and forth across the disk.  Allow water to drip freely
from the water resevoir onto the disk.  If you have any questions please
call Mack Chase, our customer service mangaer, at 800-937-9593.  He'd be
happy to give you some helpful hints.  Also, as a Diamond Max owner you can
now upgrade your ginder into our hottest new product, the Bevel Max.  The
Bevel Max is a complete studio beveling system and allows you to make custom
bevels in under five minutes.  This is because all Max grinders use the same
powerful base grinding unit, making them completely and easily convertible
for additional grinding funcitons (ie - turn your Bevel Max or Power Max
into a Diamond Max and vice versa).  The goal is to save you money and
studio space.  A plus, all Max grinders now have five year warranties.
Please give me a call if you need more info.  

Thanks,
Jennifer Daniels
Diamond Tech International
http://www.artglassworld.com/supply/dti
dti@digital.net

At 08:56 AM 11/7/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Question about the horizontal disk on the Diamond Max.
>
>How do you use the horizontal disc. I bought the thing because I like 
>geometric designs and boxes and such and thought I would find lots of use 
>for the big disk. I've tried it once. On the first pass I was cleaning up a 
>picture frame side so I was at 90 degrees against the fence. The glass 
>wanted to kick out on one side of the disk and draw into the fence on the 
>other side because of the rotation of the disk, all the while bumping up 
>and down. I was afraid I was going to chip the glass so Ibrought it to the 
>side that pushed the glass to the fence. It quit bumping up and down and 
>promptly ground a rectangular shape out of one side. Obviously, this was 
>not the thing to do. But how do you control the opposing movement of the 
>glass caused by the rotation of the wheel?
>
>I'm still new to this so have patience if my terminology isn't accurate. 
>Thanks,
>
>Linda Campbell
>----------
>From: 	nancy lynberg[SMTP:cavu7@atl.mindspring.com]
>Sent: 	Wednesday, November 06, 1996 7:42 AM
>To: 	glass@bungi.com
>Subject: 	Re: Diamond Max Grinders
>
>I've had my Diamond Max for a couple of months now and have no complaints.
>I'm very happy with it
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 08:19:58 1996
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From: CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU
To: GLASS@BUNGI.COM
Subject: lampbase:thanks all
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 11:19:29 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Nov8.71929.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


O.K. Thanks for reminding me that the "rules" are not all that strict
in lampbasing :)  I apreciate my new-found freedom.  I'll exercise it
by building my own with my trusty Shopsmith.  Shirley, no one I know
carries the kind of insurance needed for the task you suggest. :)
But it IS a good idea certainly.  Thanks to everyone else for your
suggestions.  
Bob cutler
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 11:25:46 1996
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From: cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA
To: "GLASS@BUNGI.COM" <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: SOLDER
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Nov8.4252.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Here's a dumb questions, but I'll ask this one anyway.  I'm doing a foil 
window hanging and ran out of 40/60 solder, so I decieded to use 50/50, 
this doesn't look great, so I was wondering if I can now go over it with 
40/60?    Donna!
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 14:30:48 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Subject: Re: SOLDER
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 17:29:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov8.12291.0>
References: <<1996Nov8.4252.0>>
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cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA wrote:
> 
> Here's a dumb questions, but I'll ask this one anyway.  I'm doing a foil
> window hanging and ran out of 40/60 solder, so I decieded to use 50/50,
> this doesn't look great, so I was wondering if I can now go over it with
> 40/60?    Donna!
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


first off i hope your using 60/40...40/60 is a different type of
solder.  i personnaly always use 50-50 as a base solder. though if you
go over an old solder line, it will always be difficult to get a good
bead...you could always try..it could'nt hurt. just use plenty of flux
and a hot iron. if it's real difficult to get a good bead try using
63/37 (ultimate).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 17:34:33 1996
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From: nancy lynberg <cavu7@atl.mindspring.com>
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Subject: Re:bandsaws
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 1996 20:08:57 -0500
Message-ID: <199611090143.UAA24214@answerman.mindspring.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

First, thanks for all the tips on warming glass, finally ended up getting a
heat lamp, and it seems to be working well   ift nothing else it's keeping
me pretty warm.  I'm beginning to think i just have some very brittle glass,
the reds seem to be giving me much more trouble than anything.  now  onto
bandsaw selection.  I am considering buying a glass bandsaw and have been
looking at the new  Inland db100 "price sure is good"  but was asking around
and was told to look into the Gryphon , has anyone had any experience with
it?    Thanks again for all your valuable help

----
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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 18:56:51 1996
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From: Kay Allen <fullspec@scv.net>
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Subject: Re:bandsaws
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 1996 18:53:59 -0800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961109025359.006c99e8@mail.scv.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

..I have the Gryphon.  Don't use it much but when I do I'm very pleased with
the results and the time it saves me on difficult curves.


>..  I am considering buying a glass bandsaw and have been
>looking at the new  Inland db100 "price sure is good"  but was asking around
>and was told to look into the Gryphon , has anyone had any experience with
>it?    Thanks again for all your valuable help
>
>----
>.

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From owner-glass Fri Nov  8 23:22:25 1996
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From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:bandsaws
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 22:39:21 -0800
Message-ID: <199611090639.WAA05879@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
I am considering buying a glass bandsaw and have been
>looking at the new  Inland db100 "price sure is good"  but was asking 
around
>and was told to look into the Gryphon , has anyone had any experience 
with
>it?  

We originally had an Inland "Tiger" and upgraded a year and a half ago 
to the Gryphon.  The blades and guides are more expensive, but well 
worth the improved quality and design.  We have never broken a blade, 
but use it alot in detailed production work and have worn out two 
blades and countless guides!

Good Luck!
Teresa V
Color It Glass 
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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 05:53:39 1996
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From: "Lisa Anne Rosochacki" <rosochac@pilot.msu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: bandsaws
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 08:52:22 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199611091352.IAA54293@pilot06.cl.msu.edu>
References: <<199611090639.WAA05879@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk




If you are looking into a bandsaw you might want to check out the Taurus II
Ringsaw.  Because the blade is coated with grit on all sides it allows you to
cut in any direction and you also don't have to worry about super tight curves,
and the length between the neck of the saw and the blade.  Because you don't
have to turn the glass you can cut much larger pieces on the ringsaw.
Price-wise they are about 100.00 more than a Gryphon, and about 30.00 less than
a Diamond Laser 3000, at least that is the price range in my area.

I would check one out if you are in the market for a saw.

lr

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 06:04:58 1996
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From: mike  peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:bandsaws
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:03:36 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov9.14336.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 I am considering buying a glass bandsaw and have been
>looking at the new  Inland db100 "price sure is good"  but was asking around
>and was told to look into the Gryphon , has anyone had any experience with
>it?    Thanks again for all your valuable help


We used a Gryphon for several years with very little trouble.  We used
stainless steel blades for a short while because they were advertised to
last longer.  But, we switched to the copper blades because when the
stainless steel keep breaking.  We also noticed that the stainless steel
blades ran with more vibration than the copper blades ........ anyway, we
liked the Gryphon, but upgraded to the Taurus about a year ago and are very
pleased with it.  

Bandsaws are all kinda pricy when you compare their cost to the rest of your
equipment.  If you're going to plung, take a hard look at the saws that have
proven their worth on the market.  Give the new saws a few years on the
market to prove their worth, because if they're lemons, you won't be able to
sell it very easily.
Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 07:54:17 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Bandsaws
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 10:50:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov9.55017.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I agree that you should look at the Taurus II.  I tried the Inland 3000
and returned it.  The Taurus is great.  I wouldn't trust Inland for
anything unless it has been well proven over a considerable period of
time.  Their quality control stinks.  If anyone has been reading the
other e-mail over the past few weeks, you will see I am not alone in my
opinion.
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 13:42:23 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Re[2]: tips for warming glass
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:41:57 -0800
Message-ID: <199611092141.NAA13423@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>    
>     glass, since it doesn't actually soften until -- maybe 2000 
degrees?  
>     

depending on the glass it starts slumping at around 1150 or so and will 
melt anywhere above 1250

ms

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 13:44:18 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:43:49 -0800
Message-ID: <199611092143.NAA25851@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>
>
>i don't know about rigorous, but warmer glass just works better. i 
guess
>it's just the crystaline values of the glass. though if i heated the
>glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair of scissors.

I think that your scissors would melt at 2000 degrees, not to mention 
the damage to your skin.

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 13:53:39 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 13:53:11 -0800
Message-ID: <199611092153.NAA28103@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>I have a request from a customer for any kind of Viking design.  You 
all 
>have been helpful in the past, so thought I would start here, in case 
>someone knows of a pattern book that has anything Viking in it.  We're 

>talking Nordic ships, or headpieces, not the Football team Vikings.  
BTW 
>the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida 
>vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted 
duplicated, 
>and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that 
she 
>turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to 
>turn down, out of sheer frustration.
>

Send me an email post with the particulars. I can digitize the art work 
and provide a full size patern for your client. any size is ok.

ms



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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 14:20:08 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:18:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov9.121837.0>
References: <<199611092143.NAA25851@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>>
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Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >i don't know about rigorous, but warmer glass just works better. i
> guess
> >it's just the crystaline values of the glass. though if i heated the
> >glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair of scissors.
> 
> I think that your scissors would melt at 2000 degrees, not to mention
> the damage to your skin.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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well, basically that was a figure of speech, though the scissors would
not melt, it definitly would'nt be good for them. there are special
sheers that trims off the glass after pouring it from a ladel.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 14:50:52 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 17:48:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov9.12481.0>
References: <<199611092153.NAA28103@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>>
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Precedence: bulk

Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >I have a request from a customer for any kind of Viking design.  You
> all
> >have been helpful in the past, so thought I would start here, in case
> >someone knows of a pattern book that has anything Viking in it.  We're
> 
> >talking Nordic ships, or headpieces, not the Football team Vikings.
> BTW
> >the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida
> >vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted
> duplicated,
> >and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that
> she
> >turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to
> >turn down, out of sheer frustration.
> >
> 
> Send me an email post with the particulars. I can digitize the art work
> and provide a full size patern for your client. any size is ok.
> 
> ms
> 


Thanks, but she already accepted the original pattern.  Placed her 
deposit and was quite nice today about it.  So I'm taking the 
commission, the job is too big (too much $$) for me to turn down.  I'm 
getting her final approval BEFORE I solder anything together.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 16:49:39 1996
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From: jenkyn@aros.net (Jenkyn A. Powell)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:02:49 -0500
Message-ID: <v01510100aeaacbf673b9@[207.173.24.20]>
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>You wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>i don't know about rigorous, but warmer glass just works better. i
>guess
>>it's just the crystaline values of the glass. though if i heated the
>>glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair of scissors.
>
>I think that your scissors would melt at 2000 degrees, not to mention
>the damage to your skin.
>
>----
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Not true, glass blowers do it all the time.
jp


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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 17:17:23 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: tips for warming gla
Date: 09 Nov 96 20:14:58 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov10.11458.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>> i don't know about rigorous, but warmer glass just works better. i 
>> guess it's just the crystaline values of the glass. though if i heated the
>> glass to 2000 degrees i could cut it with a pair of scissors. <<

Michael Smoucha wrote:

> I think that your scissors would melt at 2000 degrees, not to mention 
> the damage to your skin.<

As an old former hot glass worker, I can tell you:  you can cut glass right 
out of the furnace with a scissors.  It works best when the scissors is made 
of a metal that the glass wont stick to or if you dip the scissor in water 
first.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York, NY 10012

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 18:48:19 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Latex Senstitzation; Monona?
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 21:17:25 -0300
Message-ID: <199611100247.VAA07588@moltar.cetlink.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi All,
     Since I use latex gloves almost daily at work and am thinking of
buying some for SG work, I am wondering about sensitizing. I vaguely
remember reading somewhere that one can develop an allergy to latex and
that it may lead to aphylactic (sp?) shock. Does anyone know what the
symptoms of this may be? That is, what should one watch for and if symptoms
occur is it too late?
     This is not only of interest to me, but also to the Safety Department
where I work. Any information or suggestions are (of course) greatly
appreciated!

TIA,
Karl
ps. I included Monona in the header since if anyone would know, it would be
her. Thx.

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From owner-glass Sat Nov  9 23:12:29 1996
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From: "J. Hendershott" <jhendershott@macnet.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Oval came frame?
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 1996 23:12:11 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov9.151211.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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I am looking for suggestions for framing FUSED glass oval panel. I would
like to use a copper or zinc frame around the panel, but I don't know if
or how to bend the came into an oval. I have a came bender and can do
round panels fine, but I don't know if this will work for the oval
pattern I am using. Since there are no solder lines in the panel, lead
is not an option, nothing to solder it to. I prefer not to use a wood
frame, too heavy for the smaller 14x9" panels. All suggestions will be
greatly appreciated.

Janie
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 08:07:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Latex Senstitzation; Monona?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:05:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov10.6515.0>
References: <<199611100247.VAA07588@moltar.cetlink.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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KARL L. PREISACH wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
>      Since I use latex gloves almost daily at work and am thinking of
> buying some for SG work, I am wondering about sensitizing. I vaguely
> remember reading somewhere that one can develop an allergy to latex and
> that it may lead to aphylactic (sp?) shock. Does anyone know what the
> symptoms of this may be? That is, what should one watch for and if symptoms
> occur is it too late?
>      This is not only of interest to me, but also to the Safety Department
> where I work. Any information or suggestions are (of course) greatly
> appreciated!
> 
> TIA,
> Karl
> ps. I included Monona in the header since if anyone would know, it would be
> her. Thx.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


welp, if you've been using them daily and you don't see any redness in
your hands then your probably not allergic. anapheleptic shock only
occors if your really allergic to something. basically your throat
swells up so much that you can breath.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 08:12:03 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Oval came frame?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:10:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov10.6109.0>
References: <<1996Nov9.151211.0>>
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J. Hendershott wrote:
> 
> I am looking for suggestions for framing FUSED glass oval panel. I would
> like to use a copper or zinc frame around the panel, but I don't know if
> or how to bend the came into an oval. I have a came bender and can do
> round panels fine, but I don't know if this will work for the oval
> pattern I am using. Since there are no solder lines in the panel, lead
> is not an option, nothing to solder it to. I prefer not to use a wood
> frame, too heavy for the smaller 14x9" panels. All suggestions will be
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> Janie
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

to bend came you would need a came bender. brass capped cam would work,
but i don't know if it comes in border. you could make a glass frame and
mix it with the fused. if you do use a wood one, you could trim the
profile and make it thinner, so instead of having a 2" frame you would
have a 1".

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 09:32:08 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Oval came frame?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 17:31:12 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov10.173112.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 07:12 AM 11/10/96 +0000, you wrote:
>I am looking for suggestions for framing FUSED glass oval panel. I would
>like to use a copper or zinc frame around the panel, but I don't know if
>or how to bend the came into an oval. I have a came bender and can do
>round panels fine, but I don't know if this will work for the oval
>pattern I am using. Since there are no solder lines in the panel, lead
>is not an option, nothing to solder it to. I prefer not to use a wood
>frame, too heavy for the smaller 14x9" panels. All suggestions will be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Janie


I've bent zinc and brass into ovals using a came bender.  It's more work
than making a circle, but it works just fine if you keep the changing arch
in mind while you're bending.  I usually use a 1/4" or 3/8" U came, 1/2"
works if you have a large oval or circle, but 3/4" doesn't work well except
for the largest archs.



Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 11:45:53 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA
Subject: Re: SOLDER
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:43:05 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov10.3435.0>
References: <<1996Nov8.4252.0>>
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Hi Donna:  You can go over it with 60/40 but I sometimes use Quickset and
find it works really well in blending in with the 50/50 and helping 50/50
set before all the "vibrating lines" set in.  PJ from CA>

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 13:58:05 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: grinders
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 15:53:37 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961110152551.23a7869a@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hi;
        Still trying to decide between a Diamond Max and a Glastar All-star
(G 8).  Any words of wisdom from anyone?  I am doing mostly flat panels
right now, but do do lamps sometimes too.  So hard to buy without ever even
seeing one.  I noticed someone was having trouble using the disk on the
Diaond max.  Has anyone else had trouble.. (or not)??  Another related
question I notice in the Delphi catalog that the diamond tech bits are much
cheaper than the the glastar bits.  glastar claims to have a special bonding
process that gives longer life.  Any thoughts?  they are apparently
interchangable.  Meg
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 20:56:19 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Exhausting April
Date: 10 Nov 96 23:53:13 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov11.45313.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Sorry April, my husband has been in the hospital most of this week and I've 
forgotten a number of things I intended to do.

> 
> Any ideas on venting to the outside.  It has been suggested that the
> reverse pull of a fan attached to a dryer vent could be used to vent out 
through the window.  What do you think? We already have floor model
> hepa & charcoal filter. <

HEPA does good with metal fumes, but wont get the acid gases and organic 
vapors from the fluxes.  The charcoal filter will get some of the gases and 
vapors--but only for a little while.  They are not very reliable for this 
kind of work.

>I wanted some table top exhaust that could pull
> fumes as I work. Squirrel cage fan? <

For a small operation like yours, any kind of small exhaust fan will do it.  
Ideally the fan should have more than one speed and range from 300 to 1000 
CFM against 1/2 inch static pressure.

> Don't they already sell something like this? <

Even Sears may have exhaust fans that will work.  Otherwise, check your 
yellow pages.  Two middle range fan suppliers are Grainer and Dayton.

> In the greenhouse you know the CFM but in the house? Room size 8' x 30' x 
> 20'. <

In this case, the room size is irrelevant.  You are not ventilating the 
whole room except incidentally.  You are only concerned with venting a small 
local area at the work bench.  

You've gotten one pretty good suggestion from Steve Schaefer: extending a 
kitchen range hood that exhausts to the outside.  You could also replace a 
pane in the window with a small exhaust fan as you suggested.  In either 
case, you want the exhaust to be as close to work table level as possible.  
To make it even better, you could booth it in to prevent cross drafts and to 
direct all the flow of air over your work area.

Which ever system you use, you need to test it with incense or some other 
source of smoke to see that it really moves the air away from you and to the 
outside.

You also need to make sure that at the otherside of the room you have a 
source of fresh air.  Remember: every cubic foot of air that the fan exhausts 
must be immediately replaced with another cubic foot of air.  Otherwise, 
the room just develops a little negative pressure and the fan only looks 
like it is moving air.  

The replacement air must also come from the right direction--preferably 
from the oposite side of the room from the fan.  The way to think about this 
is to imagine stretching at string from the source of air supply directly to 
the exhaust fan.  Most of the air will follow this string.  You want your 
work area to be in that pathway and as near the fan as possible.

The supply air requirement also means that in the winter you will be 
throwing nice warm air out the exhaust and hauling cold air in from 
somewhere. Your heating costs will go up. There is no cheap way to do this.  

Ordinary exhaust fans and kitchen range hood fans also are not explosion 
proof.  Spraying solvent-based aerosols in large quantities is out.  Even 
great clouds of wood dust should be avoided since organic dusts like these 
can explode if exposed to a sparking motor.

> Larry of Minore  fitted a window with an exhaust fan.  Also uses a small 
> portable fan to blow air across with area to keep fumes out of his face.  <

The exhaust fan is fine, but you do not want to blow air across your face and 
into the rest of the room.  It is important that the exhaust fan be strong 
enough to draw the solder plume away and out on its own.

In fact, creating turbulance of this kind while you solder is an especially 
bad idea for you since you will have your studio in the house.  It guarantees 
that you will be spreading the fumes throughout the house.

If any of this is still not clear, draw me a picture of the studio space with 
indications of doors, windows, work areas, etc. and send them snail mail.  
I'll sketch in where the best locations for the exhaust are.

ANd here's hoping you sell a whole lot of SG for big $$ so you can get the 
operation into a separate studio the hell out of the house as soon as 
possible.

Monona Rossol
ACTS
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 10 22:44:49 1996
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From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Latex Senstitzation; Monona?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:44:19 -0800
Message-ID: <199611110644.WAA16537@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Hi All,
>     Since I use latex gloves almost daily at work and am thinking of 
buying some for SG work, I am wondering about sensitizing. I vaguely 
remember reading somewhere that one can develop an allergy to latex and
that it may lead to aphylactic (sp?) shock.

Anaphylactic Shock is a risk when people become sensitized (allergic) 
to latex, as with any other allergy.  Most commonly the first reaction 
to latex is a skin rash (contact dermatitis) which appears on the hands 
in the area directly covered by the gloves.  This rash is red and 
itchy, possibly causing the skin to blister and weep if severe enough.  
The first thing to rule out is an allergy to the powder which is put 
into the gloves to make them slip on easier.  This can be accomplished 
by trying powderless gloves, if the rash reappears or becomes worse the 
problem is to the latex.  Once a person has developed an allergy to 
latex, they should use vinyl gloves to prevent further exposure to the 
latex.  

It is CRITICAL that persons who have developed an allergy to latex let 
all health care providers know about their allergy.  Special 
precautions must be taken if the person is having dental work done 
(rubber dams are made of latex), surgery (many medical products have 
latex parts on them)or even their homes/offices painted.  I know from 
both sides of the gate-I am a registered nurse administrator AND have 
an allergy to latex.  One of the worst reactions I ever experienced was 
trouble breathing when they were painting a hallway near my office with 
latex based paint.  For further information, please send me an e-mail 
me directly at vnunit1@ix.netcom.com

Teresa Vaughn
Color It Glass!   
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 04:05:41 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: grinders
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:02:52 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov11.2252.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961110152551.23a7869a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> Hi;
>         Still trying to decide between a Diamond Max and a Glastar All-star
> (G 8).  Any words of wisdom from anyone?  I am doing mostly flat panels
> right now, but do do lamps sometimes too.  So hard to buy without ever even
> seeing one.  I noticed someone was having trouble using the disk on the
> Diaond max.  Has anyone else had trouble.. (or not)??  Another related
> question I notice in the Delphi catalog that the diamond tech bits are much
> cheaper than the the glastar bits.  glastar claims to have a special bonding
> process that gives longer life.  Any thoughts?  they are apparently
> interchangable.  Meg
> Richard and Meg LaVal


I have not had any experience with the Diamond Max, so I cannot say it 
isn't a good product.  But I have had experience with Glastar products 
and I would say their quality is excellent.  And it is true that Glastar 
bits last longer.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 06:00:17 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: SOLDER
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 07:56:12 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961111072820.1cc74d2a@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

PJ
        What is Quickset???  And "vibrating lines"  ??? Meg


At 11:43 AM 11/10/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Donna:  You can go over it with 60/40 but I sometimes use Quickset and
>find it works really well in blending in with the 50/50 and helping 50/50
>set before all the "vibrating lines" set in.  PJ from CA>
>
>----
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>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 06:23:07 1996
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X-Path: UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU!HCLADM02
From:         mail <HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
To:           glass@bungi.com
Subject:      Re: Latex Senstitzation; Monona?
Date:         Mon, 11 Nov 96 09:09:40 EST
Message-ID:   <961111.092159.EST.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
References: <<1996Nov10.6515.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just because you are not allergic to latex NOW does not mean that
you will not develop sensitivities later.  Since the adoption of
stringent universal precautions in medicine, with the continual
putting on and off of latex gloves, the sensitization of medical
personnel seems to have skyrocketed.  Nurses have lost their
careers!  I am trying to do some research on this, but don't have
much time what with my three jobs (glass being one!), but you can
take yourself to a medical library and look it up in Index Medicus
and find many articles, particularly in nursing magazines, about
the problem.  In any case, in a week or two, when I get a few minutes
of time, I'll try and post some information from the medical literature.

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 08:02:48 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 16:31:42 +0000
Message-ID: <199611111602.QAA19410@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >I have a request from a customer for any kind of Viking design.  You
> all
> >have been helpful in the past, so thought I would start here, in case
> >someone knows of a pattern book that has anything Viking in it.  We're
> 
> >talking Nordic ships, or headpieces, not the Football team Vikings.
> BTW
> >the lady with the Indian chief design came back from her Florida
> >vacation with a picture of a chieftain head that she wanted
> duplicated,
> >and it was almost identical to the one I put so much work into, that
> she
> >turned down before the vacation.  This may be one job that I have to
> >turn down, out of sheer frustration.
> >
> 
> Send me an email post with the particulars. I can digitize the art work
> and provide a full size patern for your client. any size is ok.
> 
> ms
> 


Thanks, but she already accepted the original pattern.  Placed her 
deposit and was quite nice today about it.  So I'm taking the 
commission, the job is too big (too much $$) for me to turn down.  I'm 
getting her final approval BEFORE I solder anything together.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
----
Well Done Joyce!!! Congratulations!! Go for it. Some commissions are 
like that. You just have to have them, go for them. Somehow, I 
thought you might. .....Do let us know how it goes.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 10:30:17 1996
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Subject: Re: SOLDER
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:28:04 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov11.2284.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961111072820.1cc74d2a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Meg:  You asked what is Quickset and "vibrating lines."  Quickset is
trade name for 67/32 solder by Canfield.  Instant melt and solidifying
point when heating.  The vibrating lines I refer to are the lines that
frequently form with 50/50 solder.  The best way I can describe this is
all solder solidifies at around 378 degrees F.  The 60/40 solder
melts at about 390 degrees F. and the 50/50 melts at about 412 degrees.
The cool down period of the 60/40 is the "working space" you have when
beading a project.  The cool down period of the 50/50 solder gives you a
50-52 degrees "working space."  If you move the project you are beading
before it reaches the solidifying point, your project will end up with
what I call vibrating lines...something less than smooth and rounded.  I
may not have the correct degrees on the melting points of the solder, I
can look that information up from a technical soldering manual.  But the
whole idea is NOT to move the project, or bump it or otherwise cause it to
move until the solder is set.  PJ from CA

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 15:06:13 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: SOLDER
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 18:04:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov11.13415.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961111072820.1cc74d2a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> PJ
>         What is Quickset???  And "vibrating lines"  ??? Meg
> 
> At 11:43 AM 11/10/96 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hi Donna:  You can go over it with 60/40 but I sometimes use Quickset and
> >find it works really well in blending in with the 50/50 and helping 50/50
> >set before all the "vibrating lines" set in.  PJ from CA>
> >
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> >
> Richard and Meg LaVal
> apdo. 24-5655
> Monteverde
> COSTA RICA
> tel: 506 645 5052
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well quickset is another type of solder to make, making a bead easier.
kinda like ultimate only a little cheaper and slightly more pasty.
vibration lines are those little "pond like ripples" at the end of a
joint. usually caused by shaking the iron when removing it from the
work. however it is sometimes a desirable effect, used for decorative
soldering.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 18:15:30 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 20:11:20 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961111194331.2f97aafa@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi folks;
        I have a friend coming to Costa Rica from Seattle WA.  She is
willing to bring whatever grinder I decide on.  Any good hints  on glass
stores in Seattle???   By the way, thanks for clarifying what Quickset and
vibrating lines are, of course I sometimes have the latter, just didn't know
what they were called, besides yucky looking!  Thanks Meg
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 19:22:34 1996
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X-Path: juno.com!roadrunner47
From: roadrunner47@juno.com (Jacque E Smith)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:Glass Grinders
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 22:19:33 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov12.31933.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961111194331.2f97aafa@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Well I don't have any experience with the diamond max . I have used the
Glastar G8 for quite a few years.. Between Inland and Glastar I will take
a Glastar anyday. They are quieter. The bit (Glastar bit) is more
expensive but seem to last longer.. But the biggest plus is repair turn
around. I got a bit stuck and hack sawed it off. I thought the whole
thing would have to be replaced. Sent it to Glastar and they called said
no way just would refinish the shaft for me.. ....This particular grinder
was about 8 years old and was thrilled to have my grinder back to me in
less than 72 hours.  I have an Inland in fact two of them..but really
like my Glastar..
If I sound like I am repeating my self I am...VBG...Just my opinion
Roadrunner
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 19:25:32 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: grinders
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 22:20:56 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov12.222056.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

I`ve talked to Diamond a few times and think they would be glade to hear from you.
I use a Glastar Allstar now and have no troubles.  We will become a DTI dealer the first 
of the year.  If any way I can help please let us know.

Good Luck..

The Craft Nook,Inc.
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 11 20:46:11 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Latex Senstitzation;
Date: 11 Nov 96 23:43:46 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov12.44346.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Teresa Vaughn,

Thanks for the excellent description of latex reaction.  However, one point 
bothers me.

>  Special precautions must be taken...snip....or even their homes/offices 
> painted.  I know from both sides of the gate-I am a registered nurse 
> administrator AND have an allergy to latex.  One of the worst reactions I 
> ever experienced was trouble breathing when they were painting a hallway 
> near my office with latex based paint.<

As a chemist specializing in art materials and paints, I can say with some 
assurance that latex wall paints are essentially never made with natural 
rubber latex.  They are called latex only because they are water dispersions 
of various plastic materials such as acrylic, urethane, vinyl, etc.  These 
chemicals aren't even related to latex proteins in any way.

I'm sure you had a reaction, but not to rubber.  There are plenty of 
other sensitizers in these paints.  The worst reaction comes from badly 
formulated latex urethane paints which have unreacted urethane monomers 
(isocyanates) in them.  These compounds also are famous for causing 
anaphylaxis and isocyanate asthma.  


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York, NY 10012-2586          212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 12 07:17:39 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: grinders
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:15:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov12.51550.0>
References: <<1996Nov12.222056.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Boatwright, W.L. wrote:
> 
> I`ve talked to Diamond a few times and think they would be glade to hear from you.
> I use a Glastar Allstar now and have no troubles.  We will become a DTI dealer the first
> of the year.  If any way I can help please let us know.
> 
> Good Luck..
> 
> The Craft Nook,Inc.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well basically it does'nt really matter which grinder you get, it seems
you'll be getting the same info for each grinder. and basically it's
because it's just a sealed motor with a diamond head on it. what i'd
like to see is a hybrid between the glasstar and the inland. a grinder
that has a large work surface (also a surface where the glass does'nt
cut into), a wide spray gaurd, a glass splash shield, and a utility
drawer. i think i used a glaster once, but i still like my inlands.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 12 14:56:57 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Viking design
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:56:10 -0800
Message-ID: <199611122256.OAA27588@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>

>> 
>
>
>Thanks, but she already accepted the original pattern.  Placed her 
>deposit and was quite nice today about it.  So I'm taking the 
>commission, the job is too big (too much $$) for me to turn down.  I'm 

>getting her final approval BEFORE I solder anything together.
>
>Garden of Glass
>Joyce Moran
>----
>always a good idea to have everything signed off on. We have clients 
sign off on the scale, the full size, samples of all the glass and all 
locations. Any changes are handled with change orders at extra charge. 
Lots of paper and work but worth saving all your hair. 

ms

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 12 14:59:49 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: tips for warming glass
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 14:59:24 -0800
Message-ID: <199611122259.OAA27792@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>>You wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>

>Not true, glass blowers do it all the time.
>jp
>
>
>----
>The point is glass melts at well below 2000 degrees. many metals melt 
at 2000 or below.Didnt realy expect people to alter their glass cutting 
techniques. Energy cost might just be prohibitive. 

ms

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 13 03:31:17 1996
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From: B J Snell <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Latex Senstitzation; Monona?
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 06:30:47 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19961113063118.19977ee6@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 09:09 AM 11/11/96 EST, you wrote:
>Just because you are not allergic to latex NOW does not mean that
>you will not develop sensitivities later.  Since the adoption of
>stringent universal precautions in medicine, with the continual
>putting on and off of latex gloves, the sensitization of medical
>personnel seems to have skyrocketed.  Nurses have lost their
>careers!  I am trying to do some research on this,
>--
>Dorothy Kalahan,

        Good Morning:
                        I do not know much about the latex gloves, we
purchase vinyl gloves for the staff here....  We are in the food biz and are
required to wear them by law.....    We do have a few employees that have
developed sensitivities, we thought it might be the talc in the gloves.  But
anyway,
I purchased thin white cotten liners employees wear on their hands before
they put on the gloves.  I purchased them at a housekeeping supply company.
They are produced for employees that change beds all day.  Those in this
industry have developed sensitivities to the residual chemicals that
sanitized the sheets, etc.
                        We do not require that the employees wear these
however I do make them available to anyone interested in them.  I bought a
couple of pairs for myself to wear under gloves while doing glass.  They are
especially comfortable while grinding.. and are not at all expensive.
                        Perhaps something to help...
                                                                            
            Barbara
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Barbara J. Snell
Jansen's Dining, Cornell University
255-5960
bjs10@cornell.edu

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 13 17:45:00 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Latex Sensitization
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 20:17:29 -0300
Message-ID: <199704150044.UAA13115@moltar.cetlink.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello All,
     Sincere thanks to everyone who provided the warnings and suggestions
concerning my questions about latex allergies. As usual, I am overwhelmed
by the amount of information you possess and your willingness to share.
Your help was indeed valuable.

Thanks Again,
Karl
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 15:43:58 1996
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From: "Loveta Elmore" <loveta@arn.net>
To: "glass bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: list
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:42:07 -0800
Message-ID: <199611152339.RAA04001@arnet.arn.net>
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PLEASE PUT ME ON YOUR E-MAIL LIST
LOVETA ELMORE
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 17:33:50 1996
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From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: test?
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 20:33:13 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov15.153313.0>
References: <<1996Nov12.51550.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Is everyone making ready for the holiday crafts fairs? Hard to believe
there've been no posts today!

Mary


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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 19:07:07 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: no mail
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 22:06:02 -0500
Message-ID: <199611160306.WAA03633@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
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        I think everyone must have gone into hibernation for the winter,
because I've not had any e-mail from the bungi group for at least two days
now, maybe more, and I'm quite sure my system hasn't been down.  I've had
mail from other sources.  Anyone out there?    Jennifer

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 20:55:40 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: no mail
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:16:48 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov15.141648.0>
References: <<199611160306.WAA03633@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         I think everyone must have gone into hibernation for the winter,
> because I've not had any e-mail from the bungi group for at least two days
> now, maybe more, and I'm quite sure my system hasn't been down.  I've had
> mail from other sources.  Anyone out there?    Jennifer
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Jennifer,
	Me thinks that there may be that Christmas rush on, at least 
that's what I'm experiencing.  And so, there's not much time for the 
internet and typing.  I've received several bungi messages during the 
last few days.  so maybe your server had some problems?  You're not 
alone, never fear.  Glass workers only seem that way.   T. in Montana


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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 20:55:41 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: test?
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 21:19:14 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov15.141914.0>
References: <<1996Nov15.153313.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> 
> Is everyone making ready for the holiday crafts fairs? Hard to believe
> there've been no posts today!
> 
> Mary
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Mary,
	Seems like none of us has time right now, what with the last 
minute "let's get these holiday items done" mode looming over us.  It's 
just that time of year.  Never fear, there will be lots of messages 
soon.  It's cyclical.  We work alone, yet don't enjoy being alone on the 
internet.  Strange people we are.   T. in Montana

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 15 22:59:14 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: no mail
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 01:58:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov15.205849.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hi, I have been having problems with reconfiguring after Win95 installation,
only thing that works right now is AOL (bless their little pointy heads)  and
also real busy getting ready for shows.  Still here thou, never fear.

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 03:15:09 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: test?
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 06:10:00 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.1100.0>
References: <<1996Nov15.153313.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> 
> Is everyone making ready for the holiday crafts fairs? Hard to believe
> there've been no posts today!
> 
> Mary
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I worked till midnight last night on Christmas projects.  You can't cut
and type at the same time.

While cutting last night I tried warming the glass for the first time. 
I placed it in front of a small space heater for a few minutes before
cutting.  I never had an easier job of cutting.  This is a great
suggestion.  I still cheated on my inside curves with my wonderful new
Taurus II, but I believe I could have just as easily cut these curves.

I need suggestions.  I am making a box and I want to put an agate in the
lid.  It is multicolored with iron pyrite on the edge which will act as
the handle.  My problem is that this stone is 1/4 inch thick while the
glass is only 1/8".  Any suggestions on how I can pull this off and have
a project that looks good?  I have not decided yet what type of glass to
surround the stone with.
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
----
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 04:08:41 1996
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From: "Hilary A. Bobker" <hilary@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Exhausting April
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 06:34:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.2343.0>
References: <<1996Nov11.45313.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: HABit Fashion Services
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> Sorry April, my husband has been in the hospital most of this week and I've
> forgotten a number of things I intended to do.
> 
Monona-
sorry to hear that your husband has been ill. Please give him our best 
wishes for a speedy recovery.
Hilary
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 08:08:20 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Busy little elves
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:12:41 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.31241.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Busy, busy, busy little elves working in the glass shop. Making angels,
and plant containers. April
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 08:19:31 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Cheese 
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:22:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.32247.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

I believe that that the cream is the fat.  The actual cheese is the 
protein and the whey is the starch. If I'm wrong someone please correct 
me. The book doesn't say.   April
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 08:39:27 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: test?
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:37:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.63732.0>
References: <<1996Nov16.1100.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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James R. Laws wrote:
> 
> maruca@netaxs.com wrote:
> >
> > Is everyone making ready for the holiday crafts fairs? Hard to believe
> > there've been no posts today!
> >
> > Mary
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> I worked till midnight last night on Christmas projects.  You can't cut
> and type at the same time.
> 
> While cutting last night I tried warming the glass for the first time.
> I placed it in front of a small space heater for a few minutes before
> cutting.  I never had an easier job of cutting.  This is a great
> suggestion.  I still cheated on my inside curves with my wonderful new
> Taurus II, but I believe I could have just as easily cut these curves.
> 
> I need suggestions.  I am making a box and I want to put an agate in the
> lid.  It is multicolored with iron pyrite on the edge which will act as
> the handle.  My problem is that this stone is 1/4 inch thick while the
> glass is only 1/8".  Any suggestions on how I can pull this off and have
> a project that looks good?  I have not decided yet what type of glass to
> surround the stone with.
> --
>      "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as
> he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
> and he will become what he could and should be."
> Goethe
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

you simply wrap the agate with foil 3/8" works fine. it's ok to let the
agate rise above the surface, just put a bead around it. you can also
put decorative soldering there too.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 08:40:18 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: ooops! cheese
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 11:44:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov16.34447.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Sorry guys,

Making cheese questions posted to wrong group. April
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 16 17:53:48 1996
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From: Topp Shop & Gallery <DIACCA@tznet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: bookkeeping & taxes
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 19:51:11 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961117015111.00668df4@mail.tznet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

HI!

Since I am a newbie at this stuff, having gotten my first computer a few
months ago after 28 years in business.  What kind of program should I be
looking for to do my books.  Inventory, costs, record keeping, tracking
customers.  I will want to change everything I have been doing all these
years.  Have read in the Craft Report over the years different artists
writting about whatever program they use.  But at that time I didn't have a
computer!  Now what!  I am running Windows 95 and Word most of the time.  My
daughter says I need Excel?  What would be compatible and not too far over
my head for an artists business?  Pat

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 05:37:54 1996
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X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: bookkeeping & taxes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 07:32:49 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961116091841.2f6795ac@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My husband uses Quatro Pro and says it is user freindly... good luck Meg

At 07:51 PM 11/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
>HI!
>
>Since I am a newbie at this stuff, having gotten my first computer a few
>months ago after 28 years in business.  What kind of program should I be
>looking for to do my books.  Inventory, costs, record keeping, tracking
>customers.  I will want to change everything I have been doing all these
>years.  Have read in the Craft Report over the years different artists
>writting about whatever program they use.  But at that time I didn't have a
>computer!  Now what!  I am running Windows 95 and Word most of the time.  My
>daughter says I need Excel?  What would be compatible and not too far over
>my head for an artists business?  Pat
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 08:35:24 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: bookkeeping & taxes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:28:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov17.62850.0>
References: <<1.5.4.32.19961117015111.00668df4@mail.tznet.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Topp Shop & Gallery wrote:
> 
> HI!
> 
> Since I am a newbie at this stuff, having gotten my first computer a few
> months ago after 28 years in business.  What kind of program should I be
> looking for to do my books.  Inventory, costs, record keeping, tracking
> customers.  I will want to change everything I have been doing all these
> years.  Have read in the Craft Report over the years different artists
> writting about whatever program they use.  But at that time I didn't have a
> computer!  Now what!  I am running Windows 95 and Word most of the time.  My
> daughter says I need Excel?  What would be compatible and not too far over
> my head for an artists business?  Pat
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
I would recommend "Quick Books" made by Quicken.  All of Quicken's
products are well thought out and user friendly.
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
----
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 09:53:31 1996
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From: Richard Morrison <glassman@midusa.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: bookkeeping & taxes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 11:52:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov17.55224.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961116091841.2f6795ac@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Richglass Creations
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> My husband uses Quatro Pro and says it is user freindly... good luck Meg
> 
> At 07:51 PM 11/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
> >HI!
> >
> >Since I am a newbie at this stuff, having gotten my first computer a few
> >months ago after 28 years in business.  What kind of program should I be
> >looking for to do my books.  Inventory, costs, record keeping, tracking
> >customers.  I will want to change everything I have been doing all these
> >years.  Have read in the Craft Report over the years different artists
> >writting about whatever program they use.  But at that time I didn't have a
> >computer!  Now what!  I am running Windows 95 and Word most of the time.  My
> >daughter says I need Excel?  What would be compatible and not too far over
> >my head for an artists business?  Pat
> >
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> >
> Richard and Meg LaVal
> apdo. 24-5655
> Monteverde
> COSTA RICA
> tel: 506 645 5052
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 11:41:10 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Bookkeeping
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:35:27 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov18.143527.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

In reply to Todd Shop and Gallery
We use Quick Books and think its very good and user friendly, it give a lot of help.
Good Luck:
The Craft Nook, Inc.
227 South 8th Street
Fernandina Bch., Fla.
32034
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 19:36:15 1996
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From: "Hilary A. Bobker" <hilary@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: bookkeeping & taxes
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 22:01:44 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Nov17.18144.0>
References: <<1.5.4.32.19961117015111.00668df4@mail.tznet.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: HABit Fashion Services
Precedence: bulk

Topp Shop & Gallery wrote:
> 
>What kind of program should I be looking for to do my books.

Pat-

Try Quicken or the more advanced Quick Books. Can't be beat for simple 
minded <g> record keeping.

Hilary
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 17 19:47:00 1996
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From: direct.ca!tonsper
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:Get your husband back soon
Date: Sun Nov 17 19:46:36 1996
Message-ID: <96Nov17.194421-0800pdt.33647-21560+756@orb.direct.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Best wishes Monona.  Hope that your husband is
up and running soon.

Debbie A.
Vancouver, BC.

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 18 07:47:46 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: test?
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 10:45:08 -0500
Message-ID: <9611181045.AA21947@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<1996Nov15.153313.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> Is everyone making ready for the holiday crafts fairs? Hard to believe
> there've been no posts today! 

I will not stoop so low as to make stained glass X-mas ornaments, etc. 

Of course, I don't do stained glass for a living. 

I don't have a commercial outlet for anything I like to make, yet, but I doubt
if a holiday craft fair would work for me. What about consignment art
galleries? Anyone do this?

-- David
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 18 15:52:42 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: consignment
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 18:47:51 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.184751.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

To David Cogen
David, you did not say where you are located.  We are a gift and craft store,located
on Amelia Island, Fla. We take consigmentd. We pay every two weeks and give you an item
by item of the pieces sold. Be carefull. Some people will try to rob you.
If we can help please give us a call

The Craft Nook, Inc.
227 South 8th Street
Fernandina Bch., Fla.
32034
904-321-1601
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 05:55:25 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 08:54:24 -0500
Message-ID: <199611191354.IAA05556@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

        David Cogen asked about consignment art galleries...
        First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
I, lucky me too) but for some people on this list it's a very important
contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.
        I don't have my work in any art galleries, but I have joined a co-op
of artists and artisans who rent a small store in a tourist/ski town near my
house.  We all display our work in the store and are free to put on display
whatever we want.  If someone wants to turn out multiple small items at a
low cost and price that's their choice.  Most of us prefer to take our time,
do larger, more time-consuming "arty" work, but, again, that's our choice.
We are each responsible for our portion of the rent, and we receive 100% of
the sale proceeds of our stuff.  We also have consignment members who agree
to pay 38% of the sales to us.  All things considered, it works out pretty
well.  Have a nice day.  Jennifer

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 06:56:53 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 96 09:55:30 -0500
Message-ID: <9611190955.AA03790@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<199611191354.IAA05556@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>         First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
> You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
> I, lucky me too) but for some people on this list it's a very important
> contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
> down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.

You're right. That did come off a little harsh. It was intended to be
humorous/sarcastic. I didn't mean to be insulting in any way. I am sorry.

My projects tend toward intricate many-pieced designs that take me many many
hours. My wife is always telling me to make X-mas ornaments, etc, because she
could take them to her craft fairs, etc. I know she's right, but haven't done
it yet.

-- David
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 06:57:22 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!70544.3642
From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: consignment galleries
Date: 19 Nov 96 09:56:37 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.145637.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
   > ... for some people on this list it's a very important
   >contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
   >down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.

Hear, hear!  Well said.  It takes more muscles to sneer than it does to smile,
after all.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 07:17:39 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:13:12 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.171312.0>
References: <<9611190955.AA03790@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

when looking at some (most) news-groups i'm very often disappointed
because people are so rude and unforgiving. When someone makes a 
clumsy remark entire populations start sending hate-mail. They don't
even bother to consider the possibility that maybe this person 
did not mean to offend anybody. 

When i then look at this glass@bungi bunch and the way they COMMUNICATE
i really feel good. Thank you all!!

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> >         First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
> > You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
> > I, lucky me too) but for some people on this list it's a very important
> > contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
> > down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.
> 
> You're right. That did come off a little harsh. It was intended to be
> humorous/sarcastic. I didn't mean to be insulting in any way. I am sorry.
> 
> My projects tend toward intricate many-pieced designs that take me many many
> hours. My wife is always telling me to make X-mas ornaments, etc, because she
> could take them to her craft fairs, etc. I know she's right, but haven't done
> it yet.
> 
> -- David
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 07:32:26 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:30:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.53022.0>
References: <<199611191354.IAA05556@smtp1.sympatico.ca>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

H. Taylor Buckner wrote:
> 
>         David Cogen asked about consignment art galleries...
>         First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
> You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
> I, lucky me too) but for some people on this list it's a very important
> contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
> down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.
>         I don't have my work in any art galleries, but I have joined a co-op
> of artists and artisans who rent a small store in a tourist/ski town near my
> house.  We all display our work in the store and are free to put on display
> whatever we want.  If someone wants to turn out multiple small items at a
> low cost and price that's their choice.  Most of us prefer to take our time,
> do larger, more time-consuming "arty" work, but, again, that's our choice.
> We are each responsible for our portion of the rent, and we receive 100% of
> the sale proceeds of our stuff.  We also have consignment members who agree
> to pay 38% of the sales to us.  All things considered, it works out pretty
> well.  Have a nice day.  Jennifer
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i'm curious, i go to a store very simaler to yours, i was wondering if
your larger more arty things sell? is the town a 'touristy area' or a
'richer area', so far the most expensive thing i sold there was like
only 20 bucks. i heard that country stuff is selling (if that means
anything in other country's) so i'm making a bunch of mini-panels..i
hope they sell, or i sure am going to have alot of gifts at home...:)

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 07:40:16 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:38:11 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.53811.0>
References: <<1996Nov19.171312.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Martin Streng wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> when looking at some (most) news-groups i'm very often disappointed
> because people are so rude and unforgiving. When someone makes a
> clumsy remark entire populations start sending hate-mail. They don't
> even bother to consider the possibility that maybe this person
> did not mean to offend anybody.
> 
> When i then look at this glass@bungi bunch and the way they COMMUNICATE
> i really feel good. Thank you all!!
> 
> David Cogen wrote:
> >
> > >         First of all, don't put down Christmas ornament making so adamantly.
> > > You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
> > > I, lucky me too) but for some people on this list it's a very important
> > > contribution to their daily bread.  Hard for them to have someone to put
> > > down their efforts in such a cavalier manner.
> >
> > You're right. That did come off a little harsh. It was intended to be
> > humorous/sarcastic. I didn't mean to be insulting in any way. I am sorry.
> >
> > My projects tend toward intricate many-pieced designs that take me many many
> > hours. My wife is always telling me to make X-mas ornaments, etc, because she
> > could take them to her craft fairs, etc. I know she's right, but haven't done
> > it yet.
> >
> > -- David
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well, yeah, but some times people do mean what they say (not in this
case though). i can understand how suncatchers can be laughed at, there
the little things compared to windows and lamps. they can only really be
sold for a little amount of money. but on the other hand, suncatchers
make up at least 50% of todays stained glass, although i have to admit
that alot of the stuff in gift shops are junk (the ones that are lead
with electroplate on them). and yeah there are slip ups, and in some
cases some people truly mean what they say no matter how snobbish it may
seem...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 09:21:03 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: "Boatwright, W.L." <tcn@net-magic.net>
Subject: Re: consignment
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:18:49 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.11849.0>
References: <<1996Nov19.184751.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi.  You said you took consignments.  What rate do you provide to the
artist?  In some cases the mark up for the artist to get a fair price is
far more than tourists or buyers are willing to pay.. PJ from CA.

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 10:40:19 1996
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From:         mail <HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
To:           glass@bungi.com
Subject:      Country stuff(Re: consignment galleries
Date:         Tue, 19 Nov 96 13:36:30 EST
Message-ID:   <961119.133859.EST.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
References: <<1996Nov19.53022.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


 Mike Savad mentions that "country stuff" is selling, and it does,
here in Connecticut.  That does NOT include glass, far as I can
tell.  Wood and fabric and the ever-present wreaths.

I hear glass is big in Florida!

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 12:32:23 1996
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From: "Robert E. Jones" <rejones@CapAccess.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Country stuff(Re: consignment galleries
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 15:34:36 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov19.103436.0>
References: <<961119.133859.EST.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>>
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On Tue, 19 Nov 1996, mail wrote:

> 
>  Mike Savad mentions that "country stuff" is selling, and it does,
> here in Connecticut.  That does NOT include glass, far as I can
> tell.  Wood and fabric and the ever-present wreaths.
> 
> I hear glass is big in Florida!

That makes sense.  Houses in Florida traditionally have more windows in 
them than home up north due to the climate.  I live in a new house (it's 1 
month old) in PA.  2,200 square feet with 9 (that's nine) windows.  Very 
energy efficient, but tough to display any work.

Bob

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 16:39:00 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Consignment (but not only..) 
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 01:06:00 +0000
Message-ID: <199611200038.AAA32005@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Precedence: bulk

David,
What a gallant chap you are! It's so easy to relate to one's own 
circumstances only and let slip an unfortunate remark quite 
innocently, to which someone somewhere takes offense. I have done it 
myself...
Martin,
How equally gallant of you to post those kind comments into the Group. 
We can be quite a hot-headed bunch, now and then. But, Thank God for 
a smile and a bit of laughter to diffuse a tricky situation. What I 
personally enjoy is, that we have got to know one another as 
individuals over this last year or so, we have also been able to look 
at each others' work. To me personally, it's been a great source of 
both enjoyment, new information, new sources, new ways of doing 
things. (...and I have still your e-mail to reply to...)

Consignment: (Now I know what the term mean - I was puzzled at first. 
The difference between English and English, yet again!).
David (and no doubt others), I am quite sure that "Across the Pond" 
you have Community Centres, Leisure Centres in one form or another, 
as we do here in UK. Over here, these are run by the local 
government. These also include local Sports/Arts/Crafts Centres, as 
well as your local and/or regional Public Library. 
Because they are designed to represent and serve the local or 
regional community, they also have to SHOW that they do. This often 
takes the form of display areas, display cabinets or such similar 
within the premises which are made available to local artists and 
craftsmen to  have a temporary, semi-permanent or permanent display, 
often for free. The display area is free, but anything they sell for 
you, you will have to give them a set percentage of the selling price 
(normally 20%). This is how I myself started off selling my 
small-item stained glass (mainly clocks).  Local Libraries and Leisure Centres also
are keen on arranging "Craft Demonstration Days".
This is the level I suggest you try and enter into. Local Art 
Colleges should hav display cabinets for  local artists/craftsmen.
Ignore totally so called Art Galleries!! I think it was Mike Savad 
who said that most of them are a rip-off (Peggy Johnson had some very 
relevant addition to make as well). I get the feeling that  the 
situation is very similar in UK as it is in the USA. I have had a 
number of offers over the years to have my stained glass displayed in 
both Regional and National Art Galleries... The cost to me in respect 
of time, travelling, administration, arguments, display accessories, 
accounting, commission payment to the "Art Gallery",associated bills, 
and subsequent servicing of end-customer and so forth, makes it cost 
more than the "kudos" is worth in hard cash in my bank account. The 
"kudos" of having a couple of stained glass pieces for sale at the 
Victoria & Albert Museum in London, just isn't worth it. What is for 
sale there is incredibly expensive - for WHAT it is. Not for me. I like 
to live at the grass roots. And I like to produce quality that I do 
not have to get red in the face about.
 But ,
two additional accessories you MUST produce in multitudes to look 
professional (but not over-lavish) and that is 1) a business card; 2) 
a good-looking, crisp,  promotional leaflet about yourself and your stained 
glass work - not too glossy, not lavish (or people might worry about  
the price they have to pay). That leaflet should include details 
about how you operate (are you prepared to visit the customer?), in 
very general terms, what can the customer expect; who you are; what 
your strengths are ;  what stained glass have you done so far and 
have you exhibited or received any awards/prizes and how/when/where 
to contact you. You should be able to produce such a leaflet on your 
computer using a very simple DTP package. It should be eye-catching, 
simple, neat, professional and informative.
I am myself still receiving orders for quite substantial stained 
glass work on the basis of such a leaflet that I produced on my early 
DOS DTP package about 5-6 years ago. ....
Your next stage up,  would be to make an attractive colour-photomontage 
of your best work, have it colour-photocopied (or in-deed run off you 
splendiferous colour computer printer!!), laminate it and  use it as 
a "special" hand-out to the customer with mega-money in his 
back-pocket..... (Make sure you add all such costs into the quotation 
to him. If you are too cheap, he thinks you are no good!)

"Craft Fairs" as such , here in the UK , have become saturated with 
little old ladies who knit pink wooly toilet-roll covers with frills 
on...... (i.e. a dead loss on a local basis. The Big International 
Craft Exhibitions are a different matter, but then you are talking 
mega-money!!).

I think it was Mike Savad again who referred to the absolutely 
dreadful quality of sun-catchers on sale in so called "Craft Shops" 
They are made with some sort of strange lead very quickly. They have 
hung in the shop for a few weeks . The lead has begun to sag and part 
company with the glass. They are sort of made out of  5 indifferent 
pieces of glass, out of some sort of strange pattern book, with a few 
blobs of clumsy solder to hold them together... You look 
at them and you positively "cringe" and when you turn the price label 
and realize  that the shop is demanding about 50 bucks from the 
ignorant punter, you crawl away almost in shame.
We have them here too Mike....
YYYEEEEUUUCCCCKKKKK!

So its not surprising that the craftsmen seriously involved into 
sun-catchers have some serious obstacles to fight against. It's not 
my thing, it's not your thing...
It doesn't matter what you do, if you do it WELL and apply real 
craftsmanship and individuality  to what you do do, then THAT is what matters.

Oh shit, I have gone on too long again...  David, has this been of 
any use? Help? Ideas?
If not,
Mea Culpa!

Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 17:39:58 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Up-date Health & Safety in UK
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:07:40 +0000
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Hi All,
I have kept my nose to the grindstone for the last couple of weeks 
and said very little;
Reason 1:  I have had to pacify & deal with 2 particularly obnoxious 
"know-it-all" customers ( we all get them now and then) I could have 
murdered the buggers...!
Reason 2: I am repairing 3 panels from 3 different customers dating 
back to about 1830. I am absolutely terrified. 1 panel belongs to an 
Internationally renowed painter who has already turned down 4 other 
stained glass craftsmen - he is particularly "fussy"....;
Reason 3: the second one belonging
to a classic music artist known world-wide, for whom I have made some 
rather dramatic musical instruments stained glass panels a couple of 
years ago; 
Reason 4: A super-market bag of about 500  bits delivered to me in total 
shambles with roughly the instructions "recreate it Elisabeth, and do 
it to size and period"!
WHY do I let myself into these things!!!???
Reason 5: Elisabeth, will we have our "Whale Design" before Christmas? 
(Please give me a template, polite, informative, helpful, 
customer-friendly answer that spells NO).
Reason 6: Chartres: I am deep into it.
Reason 7: IT's time for the UK tax-man to demand HIS accounts again!!

Reason 8: The GOOD BIT!!!!!
I have shared with you all the trials & tribulations about my friend 
Susan and her forced early retirement as Head of Arts in a UK 
secondary School on ground of health problems caused by the School.
In these last 2 months there have been quite a lot of  medical 
examinations I have had to ferry her to and from. Initially  the 
government medical team, agreed she had suffered, but because 
government money is involved, they left her short of 2 "points" of 
the recognized classification. We then had to lodge an official and 
legal Appeal. (i.e. another 6-8 horrendeous form-filling sessions). 
Luckily her Medical Practinioner was quite helpful and agreed to 
write another letter/certificate.  More tests, more officialese, more 
hearings, more Medical Panels..Susan and I spent a solid week 
rehearsing "interview techniques"....
Day of Interview: me sweating blood (... I Can't be THERE!!)
10 days later: The UK Government confirms that additional information 
has come to light, thus confirming "Permanent Disability Status" 
Monetory Benifit to be allowed AND back-dated to the time  THEY 
disputed it. Moreover, an Appeal would therefore no longer be 
necessary..
PHEW!!
Guess who has just written to the Union Solicitor!!?? This is really 
ammunition! I am well pleased!
Susan herself has spent a rather diffucult autumn. She WANTS to do so 
many things, she tries so hard, she helps me with my drawings, she 
has made such  considerable contributions towards my stained glass 
drawing techniqes and abilities. But Life just ain't just that easy 
if you can't breathe......
So many of you have helped me and encouraged me both in the Group and 
privately.
I did say, it's a long haul. This was quite a victory! Hence  I want 
to share it with you.
Hey Folks, We here in the UK have just had our FIRST snow!

I am beginning to scout for a nice gammon  hind-quarter to shove 
cloves, mustard and all sorts of Swedish exotic things into for a 
Swedish Christmas. (Pickled red cabbage,Curley-soup with egg halves & 
Swedish Caviar, Swedish Rice porridge with cinnamon.....???))
Want a slice??
Come on over!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 19 18:11:44 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Monona
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:39:20 +0000
Message-ID: <199611200211.CAA19452@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Champion,

The fact that I am posting my message on "the tail end", does not 
mean that I did not have you in my mnd  WEEKS ago.We all function on 
the basis of our own fundamental premises and daily lives.
Thank you, Monona, for having put so much of yourself into the Group, 
when you had anxieties of your own.
We are ALL with you and will not be satisfied with anything less than 
that your other half shall make total and complete revcovery. If 
not, why not and we will all want to share and help!!
Like it or Leave it Monona!

Much  Love & Thoughts!

 
Elisabeth 'n Toby and all of UK
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 00:30:35 1996
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From: Martin Streng <mstreng@ibm.net>
To: Mail_groep_glas_in_lood <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: poor quality/low(?) prices
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 09:16:54 +0100
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.101654.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Crediet- en Effectenbank
Precedence: bulk

My teacher, who also has his own shop/workplace in Arnhem (the Nether-
lands) told me this:
He has been contacted a couple of times by someone, asking him if he
would be interested in having some of his pieces made in India. 
He was thinking of sun-catchers and other "mass-production" stuff.
The costs of shipping, travelling and so on would be far less then the
profit they could make.
My teacher turned this offer down, but he is very disturbed and told us
the end of civilization as we know it was near ;-)
I don't think his customers come to him because he always makes the same
window over and over again, but because they truly admire his
craftsmenship and unique designs. But, as Mike said: these little pieces
do make up a lot of one's income.

Luckily he is not in the tiffany-lamp-buisiness: we have shops selling
these in practically every street in every town. They are made in Poland
or by retired/unemployed people. They all look the same!

I myself am a systems analist and still do a lot of programming. In this
buisiness too, the low-cost countries are taking over parts of the
market. And again: they only take over the mass-programming. It appears
that close contact with your customers is worth more then cheap prices.

Keep up the good work!!

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 04:23:58 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:18:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.21832.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

OK folks, the ultimate question.  Has anyone thought of any great things
to do with scrap glass?  I still have the first piece of glass I cut ten
years ago.  I store it by color in large clear plastic bins.  I use it
for small pieces that I am working on but it would be nice to find some
other uses.  I really have never liked the type of mosaics that use
small squares of glass, so that is really not one of my options.  What
are your ideas other than a large trash bin?  I love my glass and I have
a hard time parting with it in that manner.

I do have one idea that I would like to share.  A great aunt, that has
long since passed, used to save small pieces of glass of different
colors which she would put in a resin and make beautiful cylindrical
candle holders.  We still have one but I have no idea how to make one. 
Does anyone know?
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 04:27:39 1996
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From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: "\"M. Savad\"" <morn@mars.superlink.net>, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: 20 Nov 96 07:22:35 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.122235.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mike.  I sell most of my works through consignment galleries.  Most of my
sales are in two categories:  1) $20 range for original design suncatcher angels
2) $100-$600 for custom or semi-custom panels made to order.  In the later
category I hang up a 'sample' panel which is large, complex and an original
design.  Then people see the 'sample', come into the gallery, discuss something
similar with the owner, and then owner and I come up with a quote for a custom
or semi-custom panel for the client.  I change the 'sample' panel about once
every other month.

Works for me.  The owners and I have a good working relationship.  They know
what I can/can't do, and don't promise the client anything until I have worked
on the design.  I control the pricing of the work.  With one gallery I even gave
her my pricing scheme since I have authorized her to quote prices for me.

Maybe this approach will work for you.
...Christie Wood

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 04:29:58 1996
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X-Path: indy.net!jlaws
From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Up-date Health & Safety in UK
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:24:40 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.22440.0>
References: <<199611200139.BAA12344@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> I have kept my nose to the grindstone for the last couple of weeks
> and said very little;
> Reason 1:  I have had to pacify & deal with 2 particularly obnoxious
> "know-it-all" customers ( we all get them now and then) I could have
> murdered the buggers...!
> Reason 2: I am repairing 3 panels from 3 different customers dating
> back to about 1830. I am absolutely terrified. 1 panel belongs to an
> Internationally renowed painter who has already turned down 4 other
> stained glass craftsmen - he is particularly "fussy"....;
> Reason 3: the second one belonging
> to a classic music artist known world-wide, for whom I have made some
> rather dramatic musical instruments stained glass panels a couple of
> years ago;
> Reason 4: A super-market bag of about 500  bits delivered to me in total
> shambles with roughly the instructions "recreate it Elisabeth, and do
> it to size and period"!
> WHY do I let myself into these things!!!???
> Reason 5: Elisabeth, will we have our "Whale Design" before Christmas?
> (Please give me a template, polite, informative, helpful,
> customer-friendly answer that spells NO).
> Reason 6: Chartres: I am deep into it.
> Reason 7: IT's time for the UK tax-man to demand HIS accounts again!!
> 
> Reason 8: The GOOD BIT!!!!!
> I have shared with you all the trials & tribulations about my friend
> Susan and her forced early retirement as Head of Arts in a UK
> secondary School on ground of health problems caused by the School.
> In these last 2 months there have been quite a lot of  medical
> examinations I have had to ferry her to and from. Initially  the
> government medical team, agreed she had suffered, but because
> government money is involved, they left her short of 2 "points" of
> the recognized classification. We then had to lodge an official and
> legal Appeal. (i.e. another 6-8 horrendeous form-filling sessions).
> Luckily her Medical Practinioner was quite helpful and agreed to
> write another letter/certificate.  More tests, more officialese, more
> hearings, more Medical Panels..Susan and I spent a solid week
> rehearsing "interview techniques"....
> Day of Interview: me sweating blood (... I Can't be THERE!!)
> 10 days later: The UK Government confirms that additional information
> has come to light, thus confirming "Permanent Disability Status"
> Monetory Benifit to be allowed AND back-dated to the time  THEY
> disputed it. Moreover, an Appeal would therefore no longer be
> necessary..
> PHEW!!
> Guess who has just written to the Union Solicitor!!?? This is really
> ammunition! I am well pleased!
> Susan herself has spent a rather diffucult autumn. She WANTS to do so
> many things, she tries so hard, she helps me with my drawings, she
> has made such  considerable contributions towards my stained glass
> drawing techniqes and abilities. But Life just ain't just that easy
> if you can't breathe......
> So many of you have helped me and encouraged me both in the Group and
> privately.
> I did say, it's a long haul. This was quite a victory! Hence  I want
> to share it with you.
> Hey Folks, We here in the UK have just had our FIRST snow!
> 
> I am beginning to scout for a nice gammon  hind-quarter to shove
> cloves, mustard and all sorts of Swedish exotic things into for a
> Swedish Christmas. (Pickled red cabbage,Curley-soup with egg halves &
> Swedish Caviar, Swedish Rice porridge with cinnamon.....???))
> Want a slice??
> Come on over!!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

And I thought I had a high stress job!  I think I am currently happy to
be just doing glass as a hobby and not a profession.  The way it is now
I just give all of my work as gifts.  If they don't like it, at least it
is the thought that counts.
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 07:47:50 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:45:32 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.54532.0>
References: <<1996Nov20.21832.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

James R. Laws wrote:
> 
> OK folks, the ultimate question.  Has anyone thought of any great things
> to do with scrap glass?  I still have the first piece of glass I cut ten
> years ago.  I store it by color in large clear plastic bins.  I use it
> for small pieces that I am working on but it would be nice to find some
> other uses.  I really have never liked the type of mosaics that use
> small squares of glass, so that is really not one of my options.  What
> are your ideas other than a large trash bin?  I love my glass and I have
> a hard time parting with it in that manner.
> 
> I do have one idea that I would like to share.  A great aunt, that has
> long since passed, used to save small pieces of glass of different
> colors which she would put in a resin and make beautiful cylindrical
> candle holders.  We still have one but I have no idea how to make one.
> Does anyone know?
> --
>      "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as
> he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
> and he will become what he could and should be."
> Goethe
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well, of course you can use it to make suncatchers, mosaics are good and
they don't have to be squares (i can't stand those either), they could
be made just like a suncatcher only with grout. stepping stones are
coming in for some reason. i heard of a person making wind chimes from
them, by drilling a small hole in the top and hanging it. if you have a
kiln of some kind you can fuse it, as long as you know there compatable
with each other, or at least you can get one sheet and fuse it with it
self. generally i use it for small things, suncatchers and the like. an
easy project that sells pretty well too is a 2x3" pocket mirror. you cut
out 2 exact size pieces, 1 mirror, 1 color (solid), and foil them
together with 3/8". i've had no problems selling them at $3.45 i've seen
them as high as $10.00 but that's way too much.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 08:04:56 1996
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From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:03:07 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <9611201603.AA14968@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<1996Nov20.21832.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> I do have one idea that I would like to share.  A great aunt, that has
> long since passed, used to save small pieces of glass of different
> colors which she would put in a resin and make beautiful cylindrical
> candle holders.  We still have one but I have no idea how to make one. 
> Does anyone know?

Hmm. Many years ago I had a go at making resin thingys. As far as I can
remember, it's simply a process of taking the transparent resin, adding
any colouring, stirring it up with a few drops of hardener, pouring it
into the mould, letting it set, add any objects, repeat with another
layer, and so on. Typically 3-4 layers for a normal paperweight - one
clear layer for the top, one or two more to encapsulate things, then a 
final (often opaque) layer for the base. Usually, it came out shiny from
the mould - you had to sand/polish the last layer if you needed that
shiny, but since that usually ended up on the bottom, it was often OK as
it was. I can't remember if you had to coat the mould with any release agent
or not; I think the mould I was using was some sort of glossy ceramic, not
the flexible rubbery ones you use for candlemaking and plaster casts. 

So for a candle holder, you'd just need a cylindrical mold, with an inner
cylindrical lump to create the hole in the middle; you probably need to be
quite careful about heat, since the resin is reasonably likely to do nasty
things if it overheats or catches fire (*) (for example, if a candle burns all
the way down) - you may need to incorporate some other type of holder to
avoid this sort of problem.

(*) I've got no idea what they put in the resin, but I've never seen
any plastic that *doesn't* get upset when overheated - at best, it smells
awful, at worst it's likely to be toxic and/or spread fires.  

-- 
   _|_   Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  / |    Hemel Hempstead, UK    jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
  \_|_                          jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
\__/                            www.selune.demon.co.uk  (soon)
----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 09:37:25 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, "\"M. Savad\"" <morn@mars.superlink.net>,
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:32:58 -0600
Message-ID: <199611201732.LAA16361@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 07:22 AM 11/20/96 EST, Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo wrote:
>Hi Mike.  I sell most of my works through consignment galleries.  Most of my
>sales are in two categories:  1) $20 range for original design suncatcher
angels
>2) $100-$600 for custom or semi-custom panels made to order.  In the later
>category I hang up a 'sample' panel which is large, complex and an original
>design.  Then people see the 'sample', come into the gallery, discuss something
>similar with the owner, and then owner and I come up with a quote for a custom
>or semi-custom panel for the client.  I change the 'sample' panel about once
>every other month.


The sample panel approach sounds like a fine way to go Christie. My
experience is that trying to sell premade panels is very difficult
especially if they are fairly expensive there seems to always be some thing
not quite right to potential buyers. I myself have never sold a premade
panel, then again I rarely fabricate panels that are not commissioned. The
ones that I have made were originally for competitions and were some of my
better work, afterwards I put them out for display in an assortment of
retail environments never sold a one of them, ended up as gifts or dust
collectors.

Len 

BTW... anybody what to buy a genuine leaded glass panel with a motiff of a
black and white grebe barely moving across a pool of  dark gray semi-antique
with graphic minimalistic water forms in med blue french reamy and a touch
of turquoise with a very abstract reflection done in blenko purples and
translucent flashed white 24x36. I'll give ya a deal ;-)

----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 09:57:32 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:53:02 -0600
Message-ID: <199611201753.LAA17022@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 07:18 AM 11/20/96 -0500, James R. Laws wrote:
>OK folks, the ultimate question.  Has anyone thought of any great things
>to do with scrap glass?  I still have the first piece of glass I cut ten
>years ago.  I store it by color in large clear plastic bins.  I use it
>for small pieces that I am working on but it would be nice to find some
>other uses.  I really have never liked the type of mosaics that use
>small squares of glass, so that is really not one of my options.  What
>are your ideas other than a large trash bin?  I love my glass and I have
>a hard time parting with it in that manner.

Hi James,

I just put 4 five gallon buckets of scrap in the truck of my car to help
with traction when the snows fly this afternoon. I have also considered
using scrap as aggragate for a small concrete pour  There are many small
items that can be fabricated with scrap as suggested by other folks but if
thats not your thing then I would suggest placing a clasified ad or some
other means of getting the word out. I do it periodically usually during the
yard sale season and have always sold lots of glass to crafters who have
ideas for small stuff. 

----
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 09:58:42 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:54:19 -0600
Message-ID: <199611201754.LAA17070@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
>I, lucky me too) 


Many of us who have been on this list for awhile have made comments that
where a bit hasty and in my humble opinion you are in this case guilty of
that yourself. Perhapes you would care to clarify what you mean by the above
statement that you are lucky not to have to earn a living at SG. Are you
implying that the quality of your work, sales ability and/or
commitement/love of SG is not adequate enough to provide you the income
necessary to satisfy your lifestyle, and that those of us so inclined are
somehow less fortunate then you? Or that what you do for a living, if
anything, is a superior activity? Just asking.

Len  

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 09:59:52 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 11:55:29 -0600
Message-ID: <199611201755.LAA17130@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>You may not have to earn a living at stained glass - lucky you, (neither do
>I, lucky me too) 


Many of us who have been on this list for awhile have made comments that
where a bit hasty and in my humble opinion you are in this case guilty of
that yourself. Perhapes you would care to clarify what you mean by the above
statement that you are lucky not to have to earn a living at SG. Are you
implying that the quality of your work, sales ability and/or
commitement/love of SG is not adequate enough to provide you the income
necessary to satisfy your lifestyle, and that those of us so inclined are
somehow less fortunate then you? Or that what you do for a living, if
anything, is a superior activity? Just asking.

Len  

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 11:32:51 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Date: 20 Nov 96 14:29:53 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.192953.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >Perhapes you would care to clarify what you mean by the above
   >statement that you are lucky not to have to earn a living at SG.
   > ... Or that what you do for a living, if
   >anything, is a superior activity? Just asking.

I didn't read her comment that way at all, but as an accolade for those of you
who *do make their living with *any craft.  It's hard work being both creative
and businesslike at the same time and I think Elisabeth's attitude has shown her
respect for glassworkers all along.

You misread her, methinks.

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 11:49:10 1996
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From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Consignment (but not only..)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 14:45:33 -0500
Message-ID: <9611201445.AA04154@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<199611200038.AAA32005@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
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Precedence: bulk


Elisabeth sez:

> "Craft Fairs" as such , here in the UK , have become saturated with 
> little old ladies who knit pink wooly toilet-roll covers with frills 
> on...... (i.e. a dead loss on a local basis. The Big International 
> Craft Exhibitions are a different matter, but then you are talking 
> mega-money!!).

Very amusing description! Fairly accurate, too, for New England, from what I've
seen. 

Another thing about "Craft Fairs", which is frustrating to those like my wife
who are trying to sell their carefully hand-made items, are those who are
selling cheap mass-produced imports which superficially look the same to those
who don't know much about the craft. She is trying to sell handmade jewelry,
while others are selling things they buy from a catalog, at huge markup, and
still making a profit.

I don't think that kind of thing should be allowed at a "Craft Fair". Nothing
against what they're selling, but it's not a craft; that is a
misrepresentation. 


> I think it was Mike Savad again who referred to the absolutely 
> dreadful quality of sun-catchers on sale in so called "Craft Shops" 

I was in a consignment type gallery last week that happened to have a lot of
stained glass from several different crafters. The differences in quality were
amazing! Now, I am not an expert, but I can recognize quality. There was one
crafter whose lead lines were nice and rounded and smooth. But others were of
varying degrees of quality. The worst of the lot looked like quite a
mess. Uneven, flat solder lines, flux residue, dribbles where the solder melted
through a large gap between the pieces, corroded and untinned foil, and some of
the borders were completely lacking in straightness. And, one of the mirror
pieces was starting to corrode, apparently because they used unsuitable mirror
glass for the flux, or vice versa.

What is unfortunate is that all the items were expensive. And justifiably,
because we all know it takes time to make these things. But I could see no
relationship between quality and price. This probably does disservice to the
art as a whole. With all these items in the same gallery, at similar prices,
potential customers may be left with a confused impression of the art as a
whole, and be left thinking that stained glass is a rather crude sort of
hackery, where sometimes one is "lucky".

I sort of rambled in the above. Actually, it may not be quite accurate. This
may be the impression to the casual windowshopper, but a potential buyer can,
presumably, tell the difference. But, I wonder, are there any buyers? I'll go
back in a few months and see what I recognize. The owner did admit to me that
it's the ceramics, not the stained glass, that keeps her in business.


-- David

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 11:57:58 1996
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X-Path: ll.mit.edu!cogen
From: David Cogen <cogen@ll.mit.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Consignment (but not only..)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 96 14:54:45 -0500
Message-ID: <9611201454.AA04598@LL.MIT.EDU>
References: <<199611200038.AAA32005@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
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Precedence: bulk


Elisabeth sez:

> hung in the shop for a few weeks . The lead has begun to sag and part 
> company with the glass. They are sort of made out of  5 indifferent 
> pieces of glass, out of some sort of strange pattern book, with a few 
> blobs of clumsy solder to hold them together... You look 
> at them and you positively "cringe" and when you turn the price label 
> and realize  that the shop is demanding about 50 bucks from the 
> ignorant punter, you crawl away almost in shame.
> We have them here too Mike....
> YYYEEEEUUUCCCCKKKKK!


How about educating the customers? Training them to recognize junk? And to
appreciate quality?

Make up some nice posters. 

"This is a bad solder line." <picture>
"This is a good solder line." <picture>
"Look how beautiful is the second, how ugly is the first".

Do it in a way that makes them feel as passionate as you do about quality. Make
it so that they have to go right out and buy something of quality, just for the
pleasure of owning something so perfect!

Of course, I have little idea how this would actually be done.


-- David

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 12:57:08 1996
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From: "James R. Laws" <jlaws@indy.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 15:51:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.105139.0>
References: <<1996Nov20.192953.0>>
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Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >Perhapes you would care to clarify what you mean by the above
>    >statement that you are lucky not to have to earn a living at SG.
>    > ... Or that what you do for a living, if
>    >anything, is a superior activity? Just asking.
> 
> I didn't read her comment that way at all, but as an accolade for those of you
> who *do make their living with *any craft.  It's hard work being both creative
> and businesslike at the same time and I think Elisabeth's attitude has shown her
> respect for glassworkers all along.
> 
> You misread her, methinks.
> 
> Albert
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

You clearly did misread my comment on not making a living at stained
glass.  My statement was intended to say that I am in a very high
pressure job but the the level of stress that must be associated with
working on repairs for art that is over 100 years old must be equally if
not more stressful.  By the way, Albert, maybe we should talk.  I run a
mental hospital for a living and I really like people who interpret
things the way you do.;-)
-- 
     "Treat a person as he is, and he will remain as 
he is.  Treat a person as if he were what he could be,
and he will become what he could and should be."  
Goethe
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 14:33:37 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: sorry if this is a repeat question, how do I remove scratches from glass?
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 17:32:50 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.93250.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

Have been enjoying all the postings and thought some of you might be able to help me 
with something.  I had posted this question on one of the newsgroups but something has 
happened with our server and I can't access the newsgroups anymore.

I have a couple of bevels that I've done an acid etch on.  I like to wrap them in came 
and give them away as hostess gifts (when someone invites me to their house either for 
the first time or for a party) because they're a little more individual than wine or 
candy but also incredibly simple.  I also try to make them seasonal so if someone really 
doesn't like it the piece can go into hiding for most of the year.  Anyhow, a couple of 
these bevels have developed hairline scratches (my carelessness, no doubt) that are very 
small, about a quarter to half inch long.  Since they are on bevels they are very 
obvious.  Is there a rubbing compound that can take the small scratch away?  Or, am I 
better to start over?

I am interested in rescuing a couple of them because I actually sandblasted those 
ones. The glass store that had the sandblaster went out of business so I'm out of luck 
for access.

Any tips would be most appreciated.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Sandy
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 14:58:10 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Date: 20 Nov 96 17:56:32 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.225632.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >By the way, Albert, maybe we should talk.  I run a mental hospital for a
   >living and I really like people who interpret things the way you do.;-)

Oh, well now ... that's sounds a treat!  I'll be ready to check in for a nice
long rest at any time just now. <s>

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 15:07:32 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Consignment (but not only..)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:05:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.13523.0>
References: <<9611201454.AA04598@LL.MIT.EDU>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

David Cogen wrote:
> 
> Elisabeth sez:
> 
> > hung in the shop for a few weeks . The lead has begun to sag and part
> > company with the glass. They are sort of made out of  5 indifferent
> > pieces of glass, out of some sort of strange pattern book, with a few
> > blobs of clumsy solder to hold them together... You look
> > at them and you positively "cringe" and when you turn the price label
> > and realize  that the shop is demanding about 50 bucks from the
> > ignorant punter, you crawl away almost in shame.
> > We have them here too Mike....
> > YYYEEEEUUUCCCCKKKKK!
> 
> How about educating the customers? Training them to recognize junk? And to
> appreciate quality?
> 
> Make up some nice posters.
> 
> "This is a bad solder line." <picture>
> "This is a good solder line." <picture>
> "Look how beautiful is the second, how ugly is the first".
> 
> Do it in a way that makes them feel as passionate as you do about quality. Make
> it so that they have to go right out and buy something of quality, just for the
> pleasure of owning something so perfect!
> 
> Of course, I have little idea how this would actually be done.
> 
> -- David
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


the problem with that is that we all do try, but i found that certain
people have trouble telling stained glass from that cheap plastic stuff.
you know the kind they used to sell in kits to melt in your stove. they
call them sun catchers also, which makes things a little confusing.
other problems lie when you try to point those things out, alot of
people just see it as color, and money.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 15:12:09 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry if this is a repeat question, how do I remove scratches from glass?
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:10:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.13103.0>
References: <<1996Nov20.93250.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Have been enjoying all the postings and thought some of you might be able to help me
> with something.  I had posted this question on one of the newsgroups but something has
> happened with our server and I can't access the newsgroups anymore.
> 
> I have a couple of bevels that I've done an acid etch on.  I like to wrap them in came
> and give them away as hostess gifts (when someone invites me to their house either for
> the first time or for a party) because they're a little more individual than wine or
> candy but also incredibly simple.  I also try to make them seasonal so if someone really
> doesn't like it the piece can go into hiding for most of the year.  Anyhow, a couple of
> these bevels have developed hairline scratches (my carelessness, no doubt) that are very
> small, about a quarter to half inch long.  Since they are on bevels they are very
> obvious.  Is there a rubbing compound that can take the small scratch away?  Or, am I
> better to start over?
> 
> I am interested in rescuing a couple of them because I actually sandblasted those
> ones. The glass store that had the sandblaster went out of business so I'm out of luck
> for access.
> 
> Any tips would be most appreciated.
> 
> Thanks for your help in advance.
> 
> Sandy
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well if you can feel it with your nail your out of luck...unless of
course you put your name there (although it's small they should remember
who they got it from. :) ) if you can't feel the scratch, use cerium
oxide and water to form a paste. and just keep rubbing it in until the
scratch goes away.  or at least polishes it a bit hiding it a bit
better.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 15:21:42 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:21:29 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov20.232129.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 12:18 PM 11/20/96 +0000, you wrote:
>OK folks, the ultimate question.  Has anyone thought of any great things
>to do with scrap glass? 


We box it up about 10 lbs at a time and donate it to local art schools, high
schools, girl and boy scouts, or anything charitable ........ no money
changes hand until tax time which works fine for me.  At the same time, some
people associated with these organizations actually visit our studio to see
and/or learn more about stained glass ........... which is even better.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 16:34:27 1996
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: RestHomes for Glass Artists!!!
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:34:24 -0500
Message-ID: <9611210034.AA05318@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>
>   >By the way, Albert, maybe we should talk.  I run a mental hospital for a
>   >living and I really like people who interpret things the way you do.;-)
>
>Oh, well now ... that's sounds a treat!  I'll be ready to check in for a nice
>long rest at any time just now. <s>
>
>Albert,

Could you see if there is space for two more????  This is the months for "I
need it for the holidays!!" clients. 

my best
pj
>

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 18:59:30 1996
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: sorry if this is a repeat question, how do I remove scratches from glass?
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:58:59 -0800
Message-ID: <199611210258.SAA23004@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Hi,
>
 Anyhow, a couple of 
>these bevels have developed hairline scratches (my carelessness, no 
doubt) that are very 
>small, about a quarter to half inch long.  Since they are on bevels 
they are very 
>obvious.  Is there a rubbing compound that can take the small scratch 
away?  Or, am I 
>better to start over?
>
>
the depth of the scratches is what is impotrant not so much the lenght. 
In order to polish out these scratches you need to remove the glass to 
the level of the depth of the scratch. If you don't have access to 
beveling equipment and need to do this with a drill you will have quite 
a rough time of it. There realy is no magic cream that will do this 
job. In many cases it would cost more ( either in time or money if you 
need to have this done by someone with the equipment ) than it may be 
worth, unless the piece in question is very special. If you still want 
to try and the scratch is superficial use cerium oxide ( a jewelers 
rouge) Any scratch requiring a more abrasive grit is probably beyond 
home capabilities.

ms
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 19:09:23 1996
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Need help
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 19:08:54 -0800
Message-ID: <199611210308.TAA02457@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Here it is almost the holidays, and our studio is swamped with work.
I work with a studio in the Chicago area and we are looking for a 
craftsperson with at least five years experience in a studio setting. 
We need someone who can start producing right away. Please send any 
inquireries to Botti @ix.netcom.com.


MS
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 19:14:51 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <GLASS@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: 20 Nov 96 22:13:23 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.31323.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>> I do have one idea that I would like to share.  A great aunt, that has
>> long since passed, used to save small pieces of glass of different
>> colors which she would put in a resin and make beautiful cylindrical
>> candle holders.  We still have one but I have no idea how to make one. 
>> Does anyone know? <<

<SNIP>

Jerry Cullingford wrote:


> (*) I've got no idea what they put in the resin, but I've never seen
> any plastic that *doesn't* get upset when overheated - at best, it smells
> awful, at worst it's likely to be toxic and/or spread fires.  <

There were about 10 different recalls by the US Consumer Product Safety 
Commission of products involving candles.  Glass and ceramic holders cracked 
spilling flaming wax, one porous type of holder would saturate with hot wax 
and the whole thing would catch fire, some candles with more than one wick 
flared up to produce 10 inch flames.....all pretty impressive.

Make them for fun, but don't sell them.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York, Ny 10012-2586    212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 20 19:53:16 1996
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From: jroey@juno.com (Jerri M Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 22:22:14 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.32214.0>
References: <<1996Nov20.21832.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

	Speaking of scrap glass, I've seen something recently in "Glass
Patterns Quartlerly" about recycling glass into new glass.  The picture
looked like the glass was ground up, melted into new sheets, with lots of
colors (not single colors).  Does anyone know anything about this?  How's
it done?  Where's it done?

Jerri
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 01:46:14 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: 21 Nov 96 04:44:58 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.94458.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

   >about recycling glass into new glass.  The picture looked like the glass
   >was ground up, melted into new sheets, with lots of colors (not single
   >colors).  Does anyone know anything about this?  How's it done? Where's
   >it done?

Everywhere, Jerri.  To start with, the meaning of Uroboros Glass's name and
logo, the mythological snake that ate itself beginning with its own tail, was a
reference to the fact that they were using recycled glass to create their
stained glass sheets.  But all glass manufacturers do this: when I was running
my hot glass studio, the Owens-Illinois plant down the street had *mountains of
Gerbers baby food jars that had been rejected for one reason or another. Those
were destined for the furnaces to be remelted and remade into *more Gerbers baby
food jars. (Well, that's what they made.)

I don't know if all of the stained glass manufacturers, let alone even Uroboros
these days, given the demand for stained glass, can wholly make their glass out
of remelted scrap, but at least a percentage of it will be, since using "cullet"
(scrap glass) lowers the necessary melting temperature enough to save them
significant amounts of money on fuel in making glass.

How's it done?  Smash it up, mix it with the sand and other stuff that is the
basis of glass, shovel it into the furnaces, let it melt and make glass! <s>

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 04:48:11 1996
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From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: 21 Nov 96 07:43:51 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.124351.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Mike Savad wrote:
<well i guess i could give it a try, but the main problem is, is that
it's not a touristy area, or a gallery. the store is more focused on
crafts, all different kinds, so people come in not expecting to see
stained glass. and of course there is the higher price to sell stained
glass things, instead people go for the little things made from pipe
cleaners, or needle point...cuz there cheap... though i have to say if
anything i have the widest selection of stuff there, there are a few
other people who have stained glass things, they have about 40-50 items
to choose from, i have over 200. but the people are'nt buying, i'm
hoping that since it's around the holiday season more people will buy
stuff. and the owner of the store is'nt of great help, she designs her
own ads..there so bad, that she could'nt even find it...and she designed
it...>

Oh, guess you're talking about consignment or craft malls, rather than
free-standing retail galleries which take consignments.  I also have a booth
inside a craft mall.  There are two other stained glass craftsmen in this rather
large craft mall.  My work is original design, and I offer about 75 different
items in my booth.  I must say that I have the same problem as you.  Stained
glass just does not look good next to wooden crows on a stick "country" crafts.
I have been in this mall for 5 months, and December is my last.  I'm getting out
of the little stuff and am concentrating on larger panels and custom work.
These jobs I am receiving through my own advertisement and through the
consignment/commission work brought in by the retail art galleries.

As to the other two stained glass artists who are in the craft mall...one has
good work , but only does lead-wrapped suncatchers.  The other does (IMHO)
really poor quality stuff.  I don't know how he makes his booth fee.

...Christie

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 08:07:58 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:05:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.6537.0>
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Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo wrote:
> 
> Mike Savad wrote:
> <well i guess i could give it a try, but the main problem is, is that
> it's not a touristy area, or a gallery. the store is more focused on
> crafts, all different kinds, so people come in not expecting to see
> stained glass. and of course there is the higher price to sell stained
> glass things, instead people go for the little things made from pipe
> cleaners, or needle point...cuz there cheap... though i have to say if
> anything i have the widest selection of stuff there, there are a few
> other people who have stained glass things, they have about 40-50 items
> to choose from, i have over 200. but the people are'nt buying, i'm
> hoping that since it's around the holiday season more people will buy
> stuff. and the owner of the store is'nt of great help, she designs her
> own ads..there so bad, that she could'nt even find it...and she designed
> it...>
> 
> Oh, guess you're talking about consignment or craft malls, rather than
> free-standing retail galleries which take consignments.  I also have a booth
> inside a craft mall.  There are two other stained glass craftsmen in this rather
> large craft mall.  My work is original design, and I offer about 75 different
> items in my booth.  I must say that I have the same problem as you.  Stained
> glass just does not look good next to wooden crows on a stick "country" crafts.
> I have been in this mall for 5 months, and December is my last.  I'm getting out
> of the little stuff and am concentrating on larger panels and custom work.
> These jobs I am receiving through my own advertisement and through the
> consignment/commission work brought in by the retail art galleries.
> 
> As to the other two stained glass artists who are in the craft mall...one has
> good work , but only does lead-wrapped suncatchers.  The other does (IMHO)
> really poor quality stuff.  I don't know how he makes his booth fee.
> 
> ...Christie
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

i also know of a mall that does it, but it's like 75 bucks a month to
rent to glass shelves, $120 for wall space, and then they raise the cost
for rent during the holiday season and ask for a 20% commission (the
only one time you may acually see a profit). 

in the store i'm at now (i don't see why anyone would make so many), odd
ball things, like this one guy has a bunch of free standing tulips, they
really don't look all that good but he has like 6 of them...god only
knows why...

---Mike Savad

-- 
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 09:01:49 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 10:57:21 -0600
Message-ID: <199611211657.KAA16950@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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At 02:29 PM 11/20/96 EST, Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
>
>   >Perhapes you would care to clarify what you mean by the above
>   >statement that you are lucky not to have to earn a living at SG.
>   > ... Or that what you do for a living, if
>   >anything, is a superior activity? Just asking.
>
>I didn't read her comment that way at all, but as an accolade for those of you
>who *do make their living with *any craft.  It's hard work being both creative
>and businesslike at the same time and I think Elisabeth's attitude has
shown her
>respect for glassworkers all along.
>
>You misread her, methinks.
>
>Albert


Albert,

Seems to be a lot of misreading going on here.

My response was to a comment made by Jennifer (H Taylor Buckner) not to
Elisabeth who I find to be so delightfully overwhelming that I expect the I
would only be able to blabber in her presence should that occasion ever
arise ;-) and as far as James ( mental hospital fellow) comments go I was
not responding to him either although if he would care to pmail me I would
be glad to discuss  my philosophies on zen and the art of the stained glass
window. we could also discuss the ploy of corporate america to work
everybody to death in the name of the stock holders while encouraging people
to believe that terminal job stress is a result of their own shortcomings.  
 
 If I misinterpated Jennifers remarks I do apologize. 

Maybe Mike Savad is right, deleting to much of the message your responding
to causes confusion.

Len

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 09:31:32 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:27:01 -0600
Message-ID: <199611211727.LAA17657@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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 It can be a very frustrating situation when quality work is intermixed with
junk and trinkets at a fair etc. One posible solution that could work for
some folks is to apply to juried shows if you feel your work could meet the
standards. 

An example would be the Victorian Garden Party in the Cleveland area. A 2
day show.

They use a selection committe who approve on the basis of presentation,
uniqueness and quality. They limit the number of sellers in each media. They
do not accept decoupage, commercial photos, velvet paintings :-) machine
made reproductions or items from molds, kits or any imports.

There are numerous fairs and shows throughout the country (USA) that have
similiar standards. The clientel at these type of shows are there looking
for good stuff and are, I would assume, willing to pay for it. There is a
web site that lists many of them. Hope this helps.


Len

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 09:32:43 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Date: 21 Nov 96 12:30:24 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.173024.0>
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   >Seems to be a lot of misreading going on here.

Yes, probably true on my part.  As "experienced" as I am with email, I still
sometimes have to remind myself that just because the "To:" in the header has my
name on it doesn't mean that it's directed at me. <s>  Or even that the response
is to the person who's quoted above/below the remarks.  I sometimes have to page
down to the bottom of a message to see whether it's a remark directed to/from
the bungi.com group or one directed to me personally.

Senility rules, where I'm concerned, at least sometimes.

Albert

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 17:14:31 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: RestHomes for Glass Artists!!!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:40:58 +0000
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>   >By the way, Albert, maybe we should talk.  I run a mental hospital for a
>   >living and I really like people who interpret things the way you do.;-)
>
>Oh, well now ... that's sounds a treat!  I'll be ready to check in for a nice
>long rest at any time just now. <s>
>
>Albert,

Could you see if there is space for two more????  This is the months for "I
need it for the holidays!!" clients. 

my best
pj
>

.... and ME too please... :-)
I was the one supposed to be stressed, remember!

By the way, never in a month of  Sundays would I dream of denegrating 
real crafts and craftsmen, whether full-time, part-time, hobbyists, 
beginners or learners. Being full-time myself, I have championed each 
and every category many a time, as I think is well established. If  I 
accidentally phrased something in an unfortunate way, then I am truly 
sorry.  ( And thank you Albert! (May I reserve a  room near you?))
Explanation: -  What do you expect from a silly foreigner?
                      - It was 4 o'clock in the morning - our time.I 
should have been in bed.
                      -  One or two quotes I was credited with, I think 
came not from me, but from a different direction. But some times it's 
difficult to remember who said what. I do it all the time.

Mike Savad said: "People only see colour and money". Absolutely RIGHT! 
My experience too. However, the poster idea (Thank you David)) gave me
 another idea. 
When I can bring myself to spend my hard-earned money so foolishly, I 
intend to buy a kind of "Rogues Gallery" of awful "craftsmanship" and 
make a well annotated montage of them for display.  ;-)

Take care now!
Elisabeth 'n Toby 

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 17:15:06 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:40:58 +0000
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Art colleges and secondary school Art Departments are always knocking 
on my door for scrap glass for their pottery/ceramic departments. 
Potters use scrap glass as glazes for their artefacts and are only 
too grateful for it.
If I am not wrong, we have a handful of ceramicists in this Group. 
Surely they could  put you on to their own particular Potters List 
e-mail....
Hey you ceramicists, where are you!? Speak up!
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 17:15:41 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: consignment gallerie
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:40:58 +0000
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Dear Len (Alcamo) et al.,
Seems to be a lot of misreading going on here.

<My response was to a comment made by Jennifer (H Taylor Buckner)>
   Aha, mystery and bewilderment solved! Phew!

< not to
Elisabeth who I find to be so delightfully overwhelming that I expect the I
would only be able to blabber in her presence should that occasion ever
arise ;-) >
Oh come, come, pussycat! Flattery will get you everywhere. Or is this 
in reality a sweet way of telling me to shut up??  ;-)
 
<and as far as James ( mental hospital fellow) comments go I was
not responding to him either although if he would care to pmail me I would
be glad to discuss  my philosophies>
Ok, Ok, but please be NICE! We are already lining up to book in....  
 
<Maybe Mike Savad is right, deleting to much of the message your responding
to causes confusion.>
   I'm in favour of "selective editing"

Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 20:10:08 1996
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From: Kay Allen <fullspec@scv.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Craft Expo '97
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:06:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19961122040656.006e8920@mail.scv.net>
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Did anyone on the list go to the Glass Expo in Las Vegas last year?  Was it
worth your while?
Is anyone going in March of 97?  

Kay

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 20:55:36 1996
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From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Must be Holiday Season!
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:57:10 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov21.165710.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service & Suter's Stained Glass
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Transcript of an actual phone call today......

me: .....I'm afraid that I am booked solid through January.
customer:  But you told me last February that you would love to create
my front entry and I want it before my Christmas party!  Can't you start
on it now and have it finished by December 15th?
me:  I'm afraid that is quite impossible, ma'am, since I am committed
through January with confirmed commissions.
customer:  Can't you squeeze me in?
me: ..blah, blah, blah....<click> AAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just posted this ditty above my bench:

"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I cannot accept,
And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today
Because
THEY PISSED ME OFF!
And also,
Help me to be careful of the toes I step on today,
As they may be connected to the ass that I may have to kiss tomorrow."

Going Nuts in Grapeland,
Shirley
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 21 21:13:44 1996
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From: spinn@accesscomm.net (Stephen Pinn)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Must be Holiday Season!
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 05:06:23 GMT
Message-ID: <1996Nov22.5623.0>
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Great poem Deserata will never be the same!!

Thanks for the laugh - Steve


On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:57:10 -0600, you wrote:

>Transcript of an actual phone call today......
>
>me: .....I'm afraid that I am booked solid through January.
>customer:  But you told me last February that you would love to create
>my front entry and I want it before my Christmas party!  Can't you start
>on it now and have it finished by December 15th?
>me:  I'm afraid that is quite impossible, ma'am, since I am committed
>through January with confirmed commissions.
>customer:  Can't you squeeze me in?
>me: ..blah, blah, blah....<click> AAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Just posted this ditty above my bench:
>
>"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
>The courage to change the things I cannot accept,
>And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today
>Because
>THEY PISSED ME OFF!
>And also,
>Help me to be careful of the toes I step on today,
>As they may be connected to the ass that I may have to kiss tomorrow."
>
>Going Nuts in Grapeland,
>Shirley
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 03:40:34 1996
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From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: consignment galleries
Date: 22 Nov 96 06:36:57 EST
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Len wrote:
<There are numerous fairs and shows throughout the country (USA) that have
similiar standards. The clientel at these type of shows are there looking
for good stuff and are, I would assume, willing to pay for it. There is a
web site that lists many of them. Hope this helps.>

Care to share the web site address with us?  Please?
...Christie

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 05:43:55 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Misreading
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:42:01 -0500
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        Len,
        My comments about being lucky because I didn't have to earn a living
doing stained glass were very definitely not intended to put down those who
do.  In fact, if you would go back and re-read my original message carefully
I think you'll realize that I was defending them, but at the same implying
that having to earn your living at the craft is a tough row to hoe.  It's
clear to me from the comments I've read since joining this list, that
putting up with clients who demand the impossible (like no design you show
them is ever quite the "right" one, like the people who want it yesterday,
like the people who object to the price you're asking for something you've
put hours and days into, etc.etc.etc.) is not the easiest way to earn money.
I implied I was "lucky" because I am able to indulge in my passion and
obsession with glass without those pressures.  Since I actually retired
early in order to spend more time on glass, I don't think my committment is
open to question.
        If, however, you feel I trod on your psychic toes, mea culpa. 
        Regards,
        Jennifer

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 06:10:46 1996
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From: elgarber@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Ellen Garber)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Must be Holiday Season!
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:10:20 -0600
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Sorry you are experiencing so much stress, but the proverb,"ditty", you
shared is a classic.  Thanks.  Ellen>
Transcript of an actual phone call today......
>
>me: .....I'm afraid that I am booked solid through January.
>customer:  But you told me last February that you would love to create
>my front entry and I want it before my Christmas party!  Can't you start
>on it now and have it finished by December 15th?
>me:  I'm afraid that is quite impossible, ma'am, since I am committed
>through January with confirmed commissions.
>customer:  Can't you squeeze me in?
>me: ..blah, blah, blah....<click> AAAUUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Just posted this ditty above my bench:
>
>"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
>The courage to change the things I cannot accept,
>And the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill today
>Because
>THEY PISSED ME OFF!
>And also,
>Help me to be careful of the toes I step on today,
>As they may be connected to the ass that I may have to kiss tomorrow."
>
>Going Nuts in Grapeland,
>Shirley
>----
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>
>
Ellen Garber
The Department of History 
The University of Kansas
Lawrence, Kansas 66045
Homepage:  http://www.clas.ukans.edu/History

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 10:14:33 1996
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X-Path: westbyserver.westby.mwt.net!alcamoz
From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: art/craft fairs- was consign..
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:09:44 -0600
Message-ID: <199611221809.MAA17606@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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>Care to share the web site address with us?  Please?
>...Christie

You bet!    http://www.us.itd.umich.edu/~liamr/renfest/list.html


This list is all period/theme fairs and there are plenty of them.  I had
another list with more general art/craft fairs but somehow lost my bookmark
or ??? I remember it didn't take much of a search in Yahoo to find the
addresses though.

Len

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 16:01:50 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Holiday Season! What holiday??
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:27:53 +0000
Message-ID: <199611230000.AAA07257@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Absolutely LOVED your ditty Shirley!! Thanks for the laugh!
Absolutely  classic!  I not only have the phonecalls, but even little 
notes in the post.   And I am currently " only"  running a 5 months 
lead-time.
Just can't win!
.....would I be infringing on copyright if I posted it above MY 
bench? ...
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 17:09:21 1996
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From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Holiday Season! What holiday??
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:10:09 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov22.13109.0>
References: <<199611230000.AAA07257@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote (with the help of Elisabeth, I'm sure):

> .....would I be infringing on copyright if I posted it above MY
> bench? ...
> Elisabeth 'n Toby

I certainly hope not, since I stole it myself ;)  Received it in e-mail
from a first year college student who got it from someone else, etc....
Thought it was absolutely perfect and just had to share it with my pals!
Squirrelly Shirley
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 18:27:43 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Scrap Glass
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:27:04 -0800
Message-ID: <199611230227.SAA03568@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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You wrote: 
>
>	Speaking of scrap glass, I've seen something recently in "Glass
>Patterns Quartlerly" about recycling glass into new glass.  The 
picture
>looked like the glass was ground up, melted into new sheets, with lots 
of
>colors (not single colors).  Does anyone know anything about this?  
How's
>it done?  Where's it done?
>
>

We once used glass that was recycled by a company out west. Interesting 
colors, but realy rough to cut.

ms

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 19:31:10 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Must be Holiday Season!
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 22:30:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov22.173025.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Best laugh I've had in a long time-great

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

PS still dont have reg. internet up and running-getting msg thru AOL-I am
still here though
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 22 20:44:40 1996
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From: 1091@nethawk.com (Sue Eiszler)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Holiday Season! What holiday??
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 96 20:44 PST
Message-ID: <v01530502aebbeb15a5d5@[206.97.200.65]>
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Shirley,
        I sure am glad you stole the 'motto'.  It is great and was a big
hit at work today.  Everyone had to make a copy.  Thanks for making my
Friday!

Sue
1091@nethawk.com






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From owner-glass Sat Nov 23 06:09:06 1996
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X-Path: c031.aone.net.au!Gordon.Newell
From: Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Must be Holiday Season!
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 96 01:05:19 +1100
Message-ID: <199611231408.BAA17125@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
References: <<1996Nov21.165710.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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In <1996Nov21.165710.0>, on 11/21/96 at 10:57 PM,
   Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net> said:

>Transcript of an actual phone call today......

>me: .....I'm afraid that I am booked solid through January.
>customer:  

[edit]

>Just posted this ditty above my bench:

>"Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage
>to change the things I cannot accept,

[edit]

>Going Nuts in Grapeland,
>Shirley

What about. . . .

I'm 51% Sweetheart, 49% Bitch

        Don't Push it!

Percentages subject to change without notice.

~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~
Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9222 1124, Mobile: 041 111 6636 
OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)                               
 ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~

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From owner-glass Sat Nov 23 11:13:27 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Must be Holiday Seas
Date: 23 Nov 96 14:11:56 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov23.191156.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >What about. . . . I'm 51% Sweetheart, 49% Bitch ... Don't Push it!

Hey, I thought this was a family network!

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 08:35:55 1996
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X-Path: juno.com!fstryczek
From: fstryczek@juno.com (Frank M. Stryczek, Jr.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Craft Expo '97
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:34:05 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov24.16345.0>
References: <<1.5.4.32.19961122040656.006e8920@mail.scv.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I missed it, but am eagerly looking for information on the March '97
show.  Any info on it?

Thanks
FStryczek
On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 20:06:56 -0800 Kay Allen <fullspec@scv.net> writes:
>Did anyone on the list go to the Glass Expo in Las Vegas last year?  
>Was it
>worth your while?
>Is anyone going in March of 97?  
>
>Kay
>
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>
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 09:08:29 1996
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From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:05:48 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961124120548.2420a630@xavier.xu.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am making up my Christmas list and would like to know what glass
cutting and grinding and soldering equipment you would recommend...right
now I don't have anything but have been using equipment at a local glass
shop.  Any suggestions on where to purchase it besides at my local 
glass shop..seems there is a high mark-up.

Thanks
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 10:00:36 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Craft Expo '97
Date: 24 Nov 96 12:57:11 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov24.175711.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >I missed it, but am eagerly looking for information on the March '97
   >show.  Any info on it?

Frank (and Kay):

They had a full page ad in our most recent issue.  Let's see: It has three
monkeys at the top of the page, doing the opposite of their usual trick; this
time it says,

    "See, Hear, Speak GLASS.  We won't hide anything from you. We offer the best
classes and workshops with the best instructors to learn about art glass
.. whether you're a beginner or a long time craftsman. We offer displays,
exhibits and product demonstrations by the best manufacturers. We want to share
the wealth of information available in this industry. We invite you to join us
and be reminded of forgotten techniques or learn new ones. We invite you to
experience fun times with other art glass people at receptions and special
events. Don't miss these great opportunities to SEE, HEAR, AND SPEAK GLASS."

Two shows are listed, the first is called "Glass Craft Regional Conference,"
October 31-Nov 3, 1996 (guess we missed that one), the other is "Glass Craft
National EXPO '97, March 13-16, 1997, Cashman Convention Center, Las Vegas NV.
"Over 100 classes-50 instructors; EXPO Product Exhibition (3/14-16), Special
Guest-Artist Dinner Party, Glass Harmonica Concert, Special Art Glass Gallery
Display (kaleidoscopes, marbles, paperweights, and other objects)."

The registration packet has been available since 9/15.  Contact Las Vegas
Management, 2408 Chapman Drive, Las Vegas NV 89104-3455. (800) 217-4527 or (702)
734-0070.  Fax (702) 734-0636.

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 10:46:49 1996
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X-Path: fbo.com!dloda
From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:53:01 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov24.2531.0>
References: <<961124120548.2420a630@xavier.xu.edu>>
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I am making up my Christmas list and would like to know what glass
> cutting and grinding and soldering equipment you would recommend...right
> now I don't have anything but have been using equipment at a local glass
> shop.  Any suggestions on where to purchase it besides at my local
> glass shop..seems there is a high mark-up.
>Elaine;

The local glass shop is their to teach and answer your questions
immediatly.  If you have a problem, they are most likely more than ready
to help you on it.  Don't you think that you should show them some
loyality and purchase from them.  A old adage I heard once rings true
here.  Would you go to a auto parts store and buy the parts you need for
your auto and than bring the car and parts to the dealer to install?  Of
course not, but if you did, you would most likely shown the door. 
Please support your local glass supplier.  Beleive me, they are not
making a killing

Dave Loda
Stained Glass of Newport 
> Thanks
> ----
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 12:22:42 1996
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
Subject: Re: Holiday Season! What holiday??
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:19:58 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov24.41958.0>
References: <<1996Nov22.13109.0>>
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Hi Shirley:  I suspect I missed the diddy.  Since I love diddies, please
repeat it.  I don't know how I missed it because I always take care to
read all my messages.  I do confess it has been a really busy time.  PJ
from CA>

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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 15:24:59 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:18:13 -0500
Message-ID: <3298C9A5.57AA@mars.superlink.net>
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> I am making up my Christmas list and would like to know what glass
> cutting and grinding and soldering equipment you would recommend...right
> now I don't have anything but have been using equipment at a local glass
> shop.  Any suggestions on where to purchase it besides at my local
> glass shop..seems there is a high mark-up.
> 
> Thanks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

if there is a high mark up i would find another store, catalogs have
shipping charges. i would get (because i already have) a fletcher terry
score master 2 glass cutter. a inland wizard grinder, i'm not sure what
else you want to get, there's alot of cool toys you can get for stained
glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 15:24:59 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:21:38 -0500
Message-ID: <3298CA72.6260@mars.superlink.net>
References: <<1996Nov24.2531.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dave Loda wrote:
> 
> Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> >
> > I am making up my Christmas list and would like to know what glass
> > cutting and grinding and soldering equipment you would recommend...right
> > now I don't have anything but have been using equipment at a local glass
> > shop.  Any suggestions on where to purchase it besides at my local
> > glass shop..seems there is a high mark-up.
> >Elaine;
> 
> The local glass shop is their to teach and answer your questions
> immediatly.  If you have a problem, they are most likely more than ready
> to help you on it.  Don't you think that you should show them some
> loyality and purchase from them.  A old adage I heard once rings true
> here.  Would you go to a auto parts store and buy the parts you need for
> your auto and than bring the car and parts to the dealer to install?  Of
> course not, but if you did, you would most likely shown the door.
> Please support your local glass supplier.  Beleive me, they are not
> making a killing
> 
> Dave Loda
> Stained Glass of Newport
> > Thanks
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


however some are, for example i go to two different stores. the first
one has pretty decent prices, but not as much stock as the other store.
the second store, has a much larger inventory, but the prices are around
20% or more higher. sometimes it's worth it, sometimes not.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 18:43:45 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: location
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:38:50 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.213850.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

Peggy,
I live in Fernandina Bch., on Amelia Island north of Jacksonville.  Sounds like you have 
a good deal on selling your works. Wish we could get more people involve in The Art.

HAVE  a good day,
Walter
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From owner-glass Sun Nov 24 19:50:22 1996
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X-Path: california.com!cmcmurdo
From: Chris McMurdo <cmcmurdo@california.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Patina over patina
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 20:50:48 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov24.125048.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the 
way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks 
blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black 
patina or should I remove the copper patina first?

Chris McMurdo
San Mateo, CA
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 04:25:28 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:14:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.21453.0>
References: <<1996Nov24.125048.0>>
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Chris McMurdo wrote:
> 
> I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the
> way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks
> blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black
> patina or should I remove the copper patina first?
> 
> Chris McMurdo


Black will do just fine over the top of Copper IF you apply it and only 
rinse it off, do not wipe at it.  Blot dry.  Let it sit for 24 hours, 
then polish the piece.  It may still have a slight coppery undertone, 
but will be mostly black.  If you need it to be completely black, you 
need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the 
copper patina.

Gardeon of Glass
Joyce Moran

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 04:56:32 1996
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From: "Elaine Crable, 745-2029" <CRABLE@xavier.xu.edu>
To:   glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 7:55:00 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <961125075500.24210d6b@xavier.xu.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks to those with purchasing suggestions..this is all so new and I
know if I don't get the right equipment the job is going to be more 
difficult.

Mike Savad...I did find out that the glass shop I have been using is higher
than one across town so I will check others out too...they do price 
differently.

Thank you Joyce for your list...could you send me your address again, I
accidentally deleted it...

Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people

Bye
ELaine
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 05:57:24 1996
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From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:55:15 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <9611251355.AA03209@crosfield.co.uk>
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Precedence: bulk

Elaine asked:
> Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people

People have different preferences - if you're not used to soldering, I'd
suggest the Weller 100W thermostatic one, on the grounds that the tip
temperature (and so performance) is likely to be more consistent.
Non-thermostatic irons add heat continuously - as a result, what tends to
happen is that the tip temperature increases while you're not using it, and
then drops as you work with it. Experienced workers are used to this,
allow for the initial higher temperature, and then adjust the rate at which
they solder to keep the tip around the temperature they want. Rheostats
*do not* control temperature directly - they just allow you to reduce the
rate at which you add heat to the iron - this reduces the
equilibrium temperature when you're not using the iron, and allows you to
work slower when you are using it. Thermostatic irons can give you the best
of both worlds - When they're heating up, they use full power, so they
recover quickly, and they switch off at the desired temperature, so the
tip stays close to the desired temperature at all times; that avoids the
initial difference in behaviour.

However, having said all that, once you've got used to soldering, you
should be able to use most types of iron successfully, as long as you're
not using a seriously underpowered one that can't stay hot enough; several
of the professionals here swear by various non-thermostatic irons - possibly
in part because they prefer working faster (and so hotter) than the normal
setting. Finding an iron you can hold/use comfortably is also important :-). 



-- 
   _|_   Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  / |    Hemel Hempstead, UK    jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
  \_|_                          www.selune.demon.co.uk  (soon)
\__/     -----------------------------------------------------
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 06:04:49 1996
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From: elgarber@falcon.cc.ukans.edu (Ellen Garber)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:04:26 -0600
Message-ID: <9611251404.AA07632@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have had the same results with copper patina.  Is this the nature of the
copper patina?  I have never had a problem with the black.
Ellen>Chris McMurdo wrote:
>> 
>> I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the
>> way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks
>> blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black
>> patina or should I remove the copper patina first?
>> 
>> Chris McMurdo
>
>
>Black will do just fine over the top of Copper IF you apply it and only 
>rinse it off, do not wipe at it.  Blot dry.  Let it sit for 24 hours, 
>then polish the piece.  It may still have a slight coppery undertone, 
>but will be mostly black.  If you need it to be completely black, you 
>need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the 
>copper patina.
>
>Gardeon of Glass
>Joyce Moran
>
>----
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>
>
Ellen Garber
The Department of History 
The University of Kansas
Lawrence, Kansas 66045
Homepage:  http://www.clas.ukans.edu/History

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 06:44:12 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:41:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.44115.0>
References: <<961125075500.24210d6b@xavier.xu.edu>>
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> Thanks to those with purchasing suggestions..this is all so new and I
> know if I don't get the right equipment the job is going to be more
> difficult.
> 
> Mike Savad...I did find out that the glass shop I have been using is higher
> than one across town so I will check others out too...they do price
> differently.
> 
> Thank you Joyce for your list...could you send me your address again, I
> accidentally deleted it...
> 
> Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people
> 
> Bye
> ELaine
> ----

I carry the cheaper Inland because:
        a)  I can attach it to the temperature control (mini phaser)
instead of having to unplug, and let cool down the tips such as in the
Weller models and Ungar etc.
        b)   because I have a tendency to burn up my soldering iron by
leaving it on accidentally, and don't mind replacing a $20.00 iron
rather than replacing a $50-120.00 iron.  (This has only happened twice
in 11 years, but I still don't like my own part in ruining a piece of
good equipment.)
        c) it is lighter weight than some of the more expensive models
and causes less fatigue when I solder for long periods of time.
        d) it does the job. (quite well in fact).

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 06:54:45 1996
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From: gshultz@mail.smu.edu (Gary Shultz)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:53:26 -0600
Message-ID: <v01530502aebf62d48dfb@[129.119.37.12]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have had a similar experience with copper patina, which is why I seldom
use it.  I have been able to improve the appearance by using very fine
steel wool on the solder and restaining with copper patina.  I've also had
fairly good luck using very find steel wook on the solder stained with
copper and then applying black patine.

Best of luck to you,
=Gary


>I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the
>way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks
>blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black
>patina or should I remove the copper patina first?
>
>Chris McMurdo
>San Mateo, CA
>----
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      ~(~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~)~
    ~~~) Gary Shultz - SMU News and Information (~~~
  ~~~~~( Tele. 214-768-7665   Fax: 214-768-7663 )~~~~~
~~~~~~~) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(~~~~~~~


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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:11:31 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:38:27 +0000
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Joyce in reply to Chris McMurdo wrote:
< snip:  If you need it to be completely black, you 
need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the 
copper patina.>
Methinks you don't need to be so drastic. It should suffice to 
wire-wool it off and then re-patina... Use fine grade wire or plastic 
"wire-wool"
Elisabeth 'n Toby


----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:12:06 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:38:27 +0000
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Ellen wrote:
I have had the same results with copper patina.  Is this the nature of the
copper patina?  I have never had a problem with the black.>

You might find that if you clean your project scrupulously before 
applying tha copper patina and dry it thoroughly, it won't be so 
"blotchy".
For some reason copper patina has less ability to  "cut through" 
grunge and flux, than black patina. This makes cleanining beforehand 
more critical.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:36:54 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:34:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.53431.0>
References: <<1996Nov24.125048.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Chris McMurdo wrote:
> 
> I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the
> way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks
> blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black
> patina or should I remove the copper patina first?
> 
> Chris McMurdo
> San Mateo, CA
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


sounds like there was either too much oxidation or flux on the project.
you'll have to remove both the oxidation and patina to repatina the
piece. use 0000 steelwool, once shiny clean with soap and water to get
any residue off the solder. and when it is shiny try the copper again it
may come out better. also 2 other things, what brand patina were you
using, because i know inland makes their's, it goes on shiny then turns
brown until you polish it. Jax goes on and stays shiny. and i think i
have an old bottle of canfield patina, it always goes on dark and
splotchy (but i use that as an antique look sometimes). and second did
you shake the bottle, oh and one other thing, did you use a brush (if so
what else may have been on it), or a rag or something?

---Mike Savad



-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:42:46 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:40:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.54031.0>
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Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> 
> Thanks to those with purchasing suggestions..this is all so new and I
> know if I don't get the right equipment the job is going to be more
> difficult.
> 
> Mike Savad...I did find out that the glass shop I have been using is higher
> than one across town so I will check others out too...they do price
> differently.
> 
> Thank you Joyce for your list...could you send me your address again, I
> accidentally deleted it...
> 
> Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people
> 
> Bye
> ELaine
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
 

the iron is always a tough question, for the longest time i've been
using an ungar, but because of it's history of being expensive and all,
the next iron will be different. i'm not sure which iron i'll get i was
thinking about the inland insta-heat (anyone have this one?), but i
still hav'nt researched it yet.  
  as for the store, be sure to go to both stores, you'll have a much
wider selection, however going to the cheaper store (often more smaller)
they may give you a good deal on some things if your a good customer. i
know the guy i go to reconizes me by voice, and sometimes i can get a
10% or more discount on certain things. but it's not like he is'nt
making any money off of me, and i do bring quite a few people to his
store, so i think it breaks even.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:45:50 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:43:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.54326.0>
References: <<9611251355.AA03209@crosfield.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerry Cullingford wrote:
> 
> Elaine asked:
> > Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people
> 
> People have different preferences - if you're not used to soldering, I'd
> suggest the Weller 100W thermostatic one, on the grounds that the tip
> temperature (and so performance) is likely to be more consistent.
> Non-thermostatic irons add heat continuously - as a result, what tends to
> happen is that the tip temperature increases while you're not using it, and
> then drops as you work with it. Experienced workers are used to this,
> allow for the initial higher temperature, and then adjust the rate at which
> they solder to keep the tip around the temperature they want. Rheostats
> *do not* control temperature directly - they just allow you to reduce the
> rate at which you add heat to the iron - this reduces the
> equilibrium temperature when you're not using the iron, and allows you to
> work slower when you are using it. Thermostatic irons can give you the best
> of both worlds - When they're heating up, they use full power, so they
> recover quickly, and they switch off at the desired temperature, so the
> tip stays close to the desired temperature at all times; that avoids the
> initial difference in behaviour.
> 
> However, having said all that, once you've got used to soldering, you
> should be able to use most types of iron successfully, as long as you're
> not using a seriously underpowered one that can't stay hot enough; several
> of the professionals here swear by various non-thermostatic irons - possibly
> in part because they prefer working faster (and so hotter) than the normal
> setting. Finding an iron you can hold/use comfortably is also important :-).


the other plus point i have to say for non-thermastatic irons, is that
you may want to do decorative soldering with it, and as we found out
(since i don't use a weller i did'nt know about it), that a weller iron
can't use a reostat, and so you really can't lower the tip temp.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:49:45 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:47:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.54734.0>
References: <<9611251404.AA07632@falcon.cc.ukans.edu>>
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Precedence: bulk

> Ellen>Chris McMurdo wrote:
> >>
> >> I just patinaed <sp??> a stained glass picture frame and do not like the
> >> way it turned out.  I used copper patina on 60/40 solder and it looks
> >> blotchy, copper with dark blotchy patches.  Can I go over it with black
> >> patina or should I remove the copper patina first?
> >>
> >> Chris McMurdo
> >
> >
> >Black will do just fine over the top of Copper IF you apply it and only
> >rinse it off, do not wipe at it.  Blot dry.  Let it sit for 24 hours,
> >then polish the piece.  It may still have a slight coppery undertone,
> >but will be mostly black.  If you need it to be completely black, you
> >need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the
> >copper patina.
> >
> >Gardeon of Glass
> >Joyce Moran
> >


Ellen Garber wrote:
> 
> I have had the same results with copper patina.  Is this the nature of the
> copper patina?  I have never had a problem with the black.

well, it does happen, however after you clean the stuff off, you can go
back and polish it so it turns shiny for a while. i found that Jax
patina, though expensive, and difficult to apply, stays the copperest
the longest, so far the only darkening (over the last 3 years or so), is
that it's turning slightly redish.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:52:37 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:50:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.55024.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.44115.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> Elaine Crable, 745-2029 wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to those with purchasing suggestions..this is all so new and I
> > know if I don't get the right equipment the job is going to be more
> > difficult.
> >
> > Mike Savad...I did find out that the glass shop I have been using is higher
> > than one across town so I will check others out too...they do price
> > differently.
> >
> > Thank you Joyce for your list...could you send me your address again, I
> > accidentally deleted it...
> >
> > Another question on equipment...which is the best soldering iron for people
> >
> > Bye
> > ELaine
> > ----
> 
> I carry the cheaper Inland because:
>         a)  I can attach it to the temperature control (mini phaser)
> instead of having to unplug, and let cool down the tips such as in the
> Weller models and Ungar etc.
>         b)   because I have a tendency to burn up my soldering iron by
> leaving it on accidentally, and don't mind replacing a $20.00 iron
> rather than replacing a $50-120.00 iron.  (This has only happened twice
> in 11 years, but I still don't like my own part in ruining a piece of
> good equipment.)
>         c) it is lighter weight than some of the more expensive models
> and causes less fatigue when I solder for long periods of time.
>         d) it does the job. (quite well in fact).
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

yeah i had the inland profesional for a while, lasted a couple of
years,  the only things i did'nt like about that one was:

1. the cord was way to thick, it had a mind of it's own.
2. the collar that held the tip on coroded off, though i was able to get
a free replacement, it was still a hassle.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 07:55:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:53:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.5535.0>
References: <<199611251511.PAA16522@linux.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Toby wrote:
> 
> Joyce in reply to Chris McMurdo wrote:
> < snip:  If you need it to be completely black, you
> need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the
> copper patina.>
> Methinks you don't need to be so drastic. It should suffice to
> wire-wool it off and then re-patina... Use fine grade wire or plastic
> "wire-wool"
> Elisabeth 'n Toby
> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

and along with that if you were to re-solder the oxidized solder (the
patina shell) will mix into the solder, so now you'll have messy lines
('cuz you should'nt re-go over lines), and now it's mixed with more
oxides...

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 08:46:20 1996
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X-Path: crosfield.co.uk!jc
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:44:21 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <9611251644.AA05309@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<1996Nov25.54326.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> the other plus point i have to say for non-thermastatic irons, is that
> you may want to do decorative soldering with it, and as we found out
> (since i don't use a weller i did'nt know about it), that a weller iron
> can't use a reostat, and so you really can't lower the tip temp.
> 
> ---Mike Savad

True, but since the temperature is controlled by a temperature-sensitive
material in the tip, you can use a different tip set for a lower temperature -
they are available for several temperatures, but not having tried decorative
effects myself, I can't say whether there's one that's suitable.

I'm curious - what happened when you tried using a rheostat? did the iron
stop working altogether, or did you just have problems getting the
temperature down? 

-Jerry

-- 
   _|_   Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  / |    Hemel Hempstead, UK    jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
  \_|_                          www.selune.demon.co.uk  (soon)
\__/     -----------------------------------------------------
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 09:21:03 1996
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:20:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.72035.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 96-11-25 11:48:11 EST, you write:

<< I'm curious - what happened when you tried using a rheostat? did the iron
 stop working altogether, or did you just have problems getting the
 temperature down? >>


If you use a rheostat with the W100, the temperature controlling mechanism in
the rheostat fights with the controller in the soldering iron.  9 times out
of 10, it has been my experience (or that of my students who keep trying this
no matter what we say) the rheostat will win, and the temperature controlling
features of your W100 will be null and void.  Your iron will still work, but
the features you paid extra for are no longer there.

Jenna 
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 09:24:39 1996
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X-Path: montana.com!chip3
From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:54:45 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.25445.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've 
started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice at 
assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
	I've tried to assemble the sides in a hexagon and found 
afterward that the assembled sides did not fit the base.  So I took the 
sides apart to start over.
	Here are my questions:
	Do I have to use an xacto knife or something similar to remove 
all the adhesive residue from the places where I had to remove the 
tinned foil?
	Can I patch in the foil in those places where it was removed in 
order to take the sides apart?  If so, are there any tips about how to 
do this?
	Is there a way to hold the six sides in place before soldering 
so I can fit the bottom to the assembled sides?  Or, what is the best 
sequence for assembling?
	How many sides should be asssembled before trying to fit all six 
sides together?  In other words, should I try to assemble two sets of 
three side pieces first and then assemble those two pieces together?
	What keeps the six sides from changing their angle while they're 
being soldered together?
	How can I make sure the bottom will fit the assembled sides?  
I've cut to the pattern and it's exact.
	I would appreciate any pointers, admonishments whatever you have 
to offer.  Thanks     T. in Montana
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 11:23:35 1996
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:24:28 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.92428.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I'm just a novice too but I would:

-Make sure all the sides are the same size.
-Tack the sides together at the ends, starting with two pieces and adding 
the rest one at a time. Use the bottom pattern to ensure that the inside 
angle of each of the two side is 120 degrees.
-Since you have only tacked, the corners, you should be able to move it 
about a bit to get the opposing sides parallel.
-Use the completed hexagonal cylinder to draw a pattern for the bottom, 
using either the inside or outside, depending one whether you want to 
bottom to fit inside or be on the outside.

I would remove all the foil and glue and start over - you will feel better 
about it. Just my $.02.

Linda Campbell

I don't speak for Metro Machine and God knows they don't have any idea what 
I'm thinking.
 

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 14:45:01 1996
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X-Path: juno.com!roadrunner47
From: roadrunner47@juno.com (Jacque E Smith)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:42:25 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.224225.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.25445.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Assembling a Hex Vase can be a bit tricky..need at least a few hands..:)
I use masking tape ..lots of it..I lay the pieces out in order snugged up
to each other.. and the gently lift into position..You still have quite a
bit of flexability...You can then use a bit of tacky wax or solder in a
couple spots to stabilize.
A jig helps sometimes..set up over the pattern bottom and seems to help
aligning the top section..

When I have to unfoil something..I take off the foil and use a toothbrush
and soapy water to scrub off the adhesive....works for me.. and then dry
thoroughly and let sit a bit before foiling again..
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 14:51:29 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:48:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.124838.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.25445.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Phil Taylor wrote:
> 
> I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've
> started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice at
> assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
>         I've tried to assemble the sides in a hexagon and found
> afterward that the assembled sides did not fit the base.  So I took the
> sides apart to start over.
>         Here are my questions:
>         Do I have to use an xacto knife or something similar to remove
> all the adhesive residue from the places where I had to remove the
> tinned foil?
>         Can I patch in the foil in those places where it was removed in
> order to take the sides apart?  If so, are there any tips about how to
> do this?
>         Is there a way to hold the six sides in place before soldering
> so I can fit the bottom to the assembled sides?  Or, what is the best
> sequence for assembling?
>         How many sides should be asssembled before trying to fit all six
> sides together?  In other words, should I try to assemble two sets of
> three side pieces first and then assemble those two pieces together?
>         What keeps the six sides from changing their angle while they're
> being soldered together?
>         How can I make sure the bottom will fit the assembled sides?
> I've cut to the pattern and it's exact.
>         I would appreciate any pointers, admonishments whatever you have
> to offer.  Thanks     T. in Montana
> ----


I would use tape (masking or electrical) on the 6 pieces first, both on 
the inside (first) and on the outside. Be sure there is no flux residue 
under the tape when you are trying to attach it.  Then I would tape 
those pieces to the bottom, rotating the 6 sides until I found the best 
line up with the bottom.  If at that point, one side is too big, take it 
out and grind it down a little.  And then finally tack solder.  Then you 
can remove the tape and do your final soldering.

I wouldn't start and stop the foil for a patch on the top of the vase, 
but if the patch is going to be on an inside seam, you could do it.  If 
you have any trouble at all with the foil coming unstuck, then refoil 
the whole piece.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 15:52:49 1996
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From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:51:55 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.105155.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.54734.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I've been reading about the blotchy copper patina.  I had heard that this 
was a problem but was told in my beginning class that cleaning is 
absolutely essential (already mentioned) but that drying it and heating 
it with a blowdryer also helps a lot.  The trick supposedly is to apply 
the patina while the piece is still warm to the touch from blowdrying and 
to stop and blowdry each portion prior to patina.  I tried this technique 
on a Winnie the Pooh suncatcher and it came out pretty good, but I 
haven't tried anything else so I don't know whether I was just lucky, or 
whether there's any truth to it.  Haven't really had the chance to 
investigate further.  I did make a point of going over the solder lines 
with ultra fine steel wool before I tried heating it up, so that could 
have been as much as anything.

Don't know whether this helps.  Sort of curious as to whether this is one 
of these wive's tails that occur.

Sandy
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:00:36 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:58:19 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.135819.0>
References: <<9611251644.AA05309@crosfield.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerry Cullingford wrote:
> 
> > the other plus point i have to say for non-thermastatic irons, is that
> > you may want to do decorative soldering with it, and as we found out
> > (since i don't use a weller i did'nt know about it), that a weller iron
> > can't use a reostat, and so you really can't lower the tip temp.
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> 
> True, but since the temperature is controlled by a temperature-sensitive
> material in the tip, you can use a different tip set for a lower temperature -
> they are available for several temperatures, but not having tried decorative
> effects myself, I can't say whether there's one that's suitable.
> 
> I'm curious - what happened when you tried using a rheostat? did the iron
> stop working altogether, or did you just have problems getting the
> temperature down?
> 
> -Jerry


dunno, since i never had a weller, but i think other's said that the
iron did'nt heat properly or something. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:08:42 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:05:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.14544.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.25445.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Phil Taylor wrote:
> 
> I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've
> started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice at
> assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
>         I've tried to assemble the sides in a hexagon and found
> afterward that the assembled sides did not fit the base.  So I took the
> sides apart to start over.
>         Here are my questions:
>         Do I have to use an xacto knife or something similar to remove
> all the adhesive residue from the places where I had to remove the
> tinned foil?
>         Can I patch in the foil in those places where it was removed in
> order to take the sides apart?  If so, are there any tips about how to
> do this?
>         Is there a way to hold the six sides in place before soldering
> so I can fit the bottom to the assembled sides?  Or, what is the best
> sequence for assembling?
>         How many sides should be asssembled before trying to fit all six
> sides together?  In other words, should I try to assemble two sets of
> three side pieces first and then assemble those two pieces together?
>         What keeps the six sides from changing their angle while they're
> being soldered together?
>         How can I make sure the bottom will fit the assembled sides?
> I've cut to the pattern and it's exact.
>         I would appreciate any pointers, admonishments whatever you have
> to offer.  Thanks     T. in Montana
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


ok let's see, removeing the old foil is ok, the glue should'nt hurt the
new foil, though you should make sure it's clean of any flux. patch jobs
are ok because it's a 3-d piece and the edges are sealed.  when your
ready to solder tape your pieces together in the shape of the vase, (of
course making sure that the angles all work together. when taping it
(masking tape, or electrical tape will be fine), providing the base has
been cut accuratly, tape the base in also. then tack all the joints. for
the future, if all the sides fit perfectly, and it does'nt look
lop-sided, trace the inside or outside of the projects' base and make a
new bottom, which should fit like a glove, just be sure to grind here or
there and fit it in before you foil.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:14:41 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:12:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.141224.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.105155.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I've been reading about the blotchy copper patina.  I had heard that this
> was a problem but was told in my beginning class that cleaning is
> absolutely essential (already mentioned) but that drying it and heating
> it with a blowdryer also helps a lot.  The trick supposedly is to apply
> the patina while the piece is still warm to the touch from blowdrying and
> to stop and blowdry each portion prior to patina.  I tried this technique
> on a Winnie the Pooh suncatcher and it came out pretty good, but I
> haven't tried anything else so I don't know whether I was just lucky, or
> whether there's any truth to it.  Haven't really had the chance to
> investigate further.  I did make a point of going over the solder lines
> with ultra fine steel wool before I tried heating it up, so that could
> have been as much as anything.
> 
> Don't know whether this helps.  Sort of curious as to whether this is one
> of these wive's tails that occur.
> 
> Sandy
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well, heat seems to be a cure all in alot of cases, usally after i scrub
the piece clean i finish it off in hot water, does'nt hurt. it also
depends on how old the patina is, brand, quality of the solder, if you
redip your brush in the bottle, etc. but in almost any case polishing it
afterwards, yields just about the same results.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
----
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:24:31 1996
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X-Path: fbo.com!dloda
From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:30:52 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.83052.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.72035.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

StndGlass1@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 96-11-25 11:48:11 EST, you write:
> 
> << I'm curious - what happened when you tried using a rheostat? did the iron
>  stop working altogether, or did you just have problems getting the
>  temperature down? >>
> 
> If you use a rheostat with the W100, the temperature controlling mechanism in
> the rheostat fights with the controller in the soldering iron.  9 times out
> of 10, it has been my experience (or that of my students who keep trying this
> no matter what we say) the rheostat will win, and the temperature controlling
> features of your W100 will be null and void.  Your iron will still work, but
> the features you paid extra for are no longer there.
> 
> Jenna
> Meredith Stained Glass
> ----
The Weller 80 works extreamly well with a reostate, and the cord is not
as thick as the w100.  Also it is about half the price of the W100 and
less thanthe Unger.  FWIW Unger is owned by Weller

Dave Loda
Stained Glass of Newport
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:25:23 1996
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X-Path: az.stratus.com!charlie
From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 96 17:24:49 -0700
Message-ID: <m0vSBKV-000LiEC@why.az.stratus.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

I found that you can buy copper sulfate at the local chemical supply store  
cheaply. I paid around $12 for 500mg, which should be enough to make about 10  
gallons of patina.

Re: the age of copper patina:
Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little  
distilled water should make it go back into solution. Patina shouldn't be  
bothered by being old, as the copper sulfate doesn't degrade into other  
chemicals.
---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Phoenix, AZ
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:36:38 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:34:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.14348.0>
References: <<m0vSBKV-000LiEC@why.az.stratus.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Charles Spitzer wrote:
> 
> I found that you can buy copper sulfate at the local chemical supply store
> cheaply. I paid around $12 for 500mg, which should be enough to make about 10
> gallons of patina.
> 
> Re: the age of copper patina:
> Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little
> distilled water should make it go back into solution. Patina shouldn't be
> bothered by being old, as the copper sulfate doesn't degrade into other
> chemicals.
> ---
> Charles Spitzer
> charlie@az.stratus.com
> Phoenix, AZ
> ----
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the copper sulfate does'nt but the chemicals to keep the suspension
going does, like in novacan patina the stuff never settles, it has a few
different acids in it, which can destablize and weaken. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 16:49:19 1996
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:48:48 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.144848.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 96-11-25 19:26:33 EST, you write:

<< The Weller 80 works extreamly well with a reostate, and the cord is not
 as thick as the w100.  Also it is about half the price of the W100 and
 less thanthe Unger.  FWIW Unger is owned by Weller
  >>

No question about it.  The Weller 80 watt is designed to work with the
rheostat.  A good iron for your investment.  Still, if you aren't going to be
doing decorative soldering, I would recommend the W100 to most hobbyists.

Jenna
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 17:31:02 1996
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From: vgillespie <vgillespie@riverview.net>
To: Glass@Bungi.com
Subject: Copper Patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 20:29:06 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov25.12296.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I've been lurking around reading notes for quite a few months now, but
have never responded. After reading alot of answers to the copper patina
question, I would like to offer the following input:

Copper patina does not work well if there is any flux residue on the
project. It also has a funny way of reacting with many types of
cleaners. I know it's tempting to use dish soap or any other cleaner,
but many leave a residue that reacts poorly with patina. If you are
using black patina, you will probably not notice any adverse affects,
because black patina causes the solder to oxidize. It is quite strong
and will "cut thru" most residue. Copper patina is a plating, which
needs to "adhere" to the solder (for lack of a better word).

There is a cleaner that should be available at your supplier called CJ'S
Flux and Patina Remover. It is formulated so that it doesn't react with
copper patina. It may seem a little pricy (around $5 for 8 0z.) but it
is concentrated and goes a long way. A drop about the size of a dime
will clean a panel around 12" x 18". Use a scrub brush and clean the
project well, getting in the joints and corners. Rinse until you think
it's gone, and then rinse some more. Dry the panel off and apply the
patina immediatly. 

Another important step in bringing up the shine of copper patina is to
apply a finishing compound or wax. This will bring up the shine and
"seal" the surface. Metals (and metal platings) will oxidize when
exposed to air. This "seal" will keep the air from the metal.

I have been using CJ'S Cleaner, Novacan Copper Patina and Kem-O-Pro
Finishing Compound for 10 years and have had many comments on how nice
the finish looks.

Just my 2 cents worth....Hope it helps.

Vicki
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 19:33:47 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:33:21 -0800
Message-ID: <199611260333.TAA29585@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>
>Joyce in reply to Chris McMurdo wrote:
>< snip:  If you need it to be completely black, you 
>need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the 
>copper patina.>
>Methinks you don't need to be so drastic. It should suffice to 
>wire-wool it off and then re-patina... Use fine grade wire or plastic 
>"wire-wool"
>Elisabeth 'n Toby
>
>
>----

I think you are probably correct in the less agresive solution. also I 
think that the formulation of the copper versus black has a lot to do 
with its ability to fight through grunge. Due to the nature of our use 
(mostly restoration of old lamps) we never use commecial patinas but 
mix our own using various mixes of muriatic,copper sulfate, water and 
salt. In this way we can play with the mix to match the exsisting 
patina more closely. The more coppery patinas are achieved using copper 
sulfate and water only. The blacker the more muriatic. I think that the 
presence of the acid may be the defining difference regards grunge 
cutting.

ms
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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 19:44:44 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:44:18 -0800
Message-ID: <199611260344.TAA00872@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Phil Taylor wrote:
>> 
>> I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've
>> started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice 
at
>> assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
>>       
 for
>the future, if all the sides fit perfectly, and it does'nt look
>lop-sided, trace the inside or outside of the projects' base and make 
a
>new bottom, which should fit like a glove, just be sure to grind here 
or
>there and fit it in before you foil.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 

Dont forget to leave some room for the thickness of the foil. Nothing 
like getting a perfect fit foiling and finding that fit grew.

ms

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From owner-glass Mon Nov 25 19:49:20 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:48:53 -0800
Message-ID: <199611260348.TAA09596@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>I found that you can buy copper sulfate at the local chemical supply 
store  
>cheaply. I paid around $12 for 500mg, which should be enough to make 
about 10  
>gallons of patina.

Just go to your hardware store or home center and buy some Root killer 
(for sewers and septic systems) this is 99.9% copper sulfate. about $6 
- $8 per 2lb bottle. 
>
>Re: the age of copper patina:
>Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little  
>distilled water should make it go back into solution. Patina shouldn't 
be  
>bothered by being old, as the copper sulfate doesn't degrade into 
other  
>chemicals.
>---

or just use hot tap water. mix in some muriatic to vary the color.

ms
>Charles Spitzer
>charlie@az.stratus.com
>Phoenix, AZ
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 04:31:21 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:28:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.22826.0>
References: <<m0vSBKV-000LiEC@why.az.stratus.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Charles Spitzer wrote:
> 
> I found that you can buy copper sulfate at the local chemical supply store
> cheaply. I paid around $12 for 500mg, which should be enough to make about 10
> gallons of patina.
> 
> Re: the age of copper patina:
> Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little
> distilled water should make it go back into solution. Patina shouldn't be
> bothered by being old, as the copper sulfate doesn't degrade into other
> chemicals.
> ---


Have you actually tried this?  My first experience with copper sulfate 
that way, was with my 1st stained glass instructor.  She mixed the stuff 
up, but had no way of heating it in class, and our projects turned out 
absolutely awful.  (Enough to cure me of using copper patina for a long 
long time).  But  after trying the commercial stuff, I have had not 
problem getting a decent color every time.  (I have had blotchy stuff in 
the beginning days, before I knew enough to clean properly).  But her 
solution caused my project to turn an ugly brown...no shine, no nice 
coppery color,  just butt ugly!

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 04:51:33 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:47:28 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961117012524.2d6f15e6@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

ms;
        Interesting to here what you have to say about acids.  I had heard
you could use muriatic acid, even got some, then lost the reference.  Can
you tell us more about proportions?  I accidently spilled some orange juice
on something I was patina-ing with copper sulfate and water solution, and I
thought it did work better... Meg

>
>I think you are probably correct in the less agresive solution. also I 
>think that the formulation of the copper versus black has a lot to do 
>with its ability to fight through grunge. Due to the nature of our use 
>(mostly restoration of old lamps) we never use commecial patinas but 
>mix our own using various mixes of muriatic,copper sulfate, water and 
>salt. In this way we can play with the mix to match the exsisting 
>patina more closely. The more coppery patinas are achieved using copper 
>sulfate and water only. The blacker the more muriatic. I think that the 
>presence of the acid may be the defining difference regards grunge 
>cutting.
>
>ms
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 04:55:22 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:51:20 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961117012915.2d6f654a@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have.  Here in Costa Rica the copper sulfate crystals are all I have
available.  I melt them in water, and warm this solution.  Then I clean
meticulously and dry.  Put it on and wax it.  usually turns out fine, I
suspect that the cleaning wasn't good enough in the few times it turned
blotchy.  Also, don't judge till you have shined it, it always comes up a
lot better than when you first apply it.  
Meg


>Have you actually tried this?  My first experience with copper sulfate 
>that way, was with my 1st stained glass instructor.  She mixed the stuff 
>up, but had no way of heating it in class, and our projects turned out 
>absolutely awful.  (Enough to cure me of using copper patina for a long 
>long time).  But  after trying the commercial stuff, I have had not 
>problem getting a decent color every time.  (I have had blotchy stuff in 
>the beginning days, before I knew enough to clean properly).  But her 
>solution caused my project to turn an ugly brown...no shine, no nice 
>coppery color,  just butt ugly!
>
>Garden of Glass
>Joyce Moran
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 07:09:07 1996
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From: Mike  Peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:08:48 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.15848.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>I think you are probably correct in the less agresive solution. also I 
>think that the formulation of the copper versus black has a lot to do 
>with its ability to fight through grunge. Due to the nature of our use 
>(mostly restoration of old lamps) we never use commecial patinas but 
>mix our own using various mixes of muriatic,copper sulfate, water and 
>salt. In this way we can play with the mix to match the exsisting 
>patina more closely. The more coppery patinas are achieved using copper 
>sulfate and water only. The blacker the more muriatic. I think that the 
>presence of the acid may be the defining difference regards grunge 
>cutting.
>
>ms


Mike,

Hum, I've had more success than failures with copper patinas, but I have
always used commercially available patinas (usually Novacan).  I never
thought to mix up my own, thanks for planting the seed!

My $0.02 (US) worth, I think there are a couple of things that you can do to
hedge your success.  First, when I am going to copper patina, I will use
solder with the highest tin content, ie, 63/37.  Someone told me that the
lead in the solder can concentrate in small areas as the solder solidifies
and will produce a splotchy appearance when the patina is applied.  Using
50/50 solder allows the tin/lead to demix to some extent when molten and
you'll get pockets within your solder line where the tin or lead will
concentrate. I dunno about all this chemistry happening, but the claim made
to this is that the copper actually bonds with the tin in the solder rather
than the lead.  Any chemists out there that can confirm this?  The other
thing I have noticed is that Canfield and Hirsh solders tend to give
better(more consistent) results than other brands I have tried. I think
their respective levels of impurities are less or maybe better controlled
than other solder brands.

I always scrub the piece as others have described, and I always polish with
a nonabrasive tarnish remover.  I still get an ugly splotch now and then,
but I generally attribute it to some contaminate that I didn't get off the
surface.  At any rate, I just burn it out with a soldering iron, rescrub the
area and reapply fresh patina.  It seems to work just fine.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 07:54:40 1996
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From: GlasCrafts@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Stained Glass Sales Flyer
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:54:18 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.55418.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

It may be of interest to the list to check the Glass Crafters Stained Glass
web page at http://www.craftweb.com/org/glascrafts/glascraf.shtml
Here you can obtain an email of the Holiday Sales Flyer.
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 08:01:15 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Patina over patina
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:58:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.55859.0>
References: <<199611260333.TAA29585@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>>
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Precedence: bulk

Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >
> >Joyce in reply to Chris McMurdo wrote:
> >< snip:  If you need it to be completely black, you
> >need to go over all the soldering with your iron, to get rid of the
> >copper patina.>
> >Methinks you don't need to be so drastic. It should suffice to
> >wire-wool it off and then re-patina... Use fine grade wire or plastic
> >"wire-wool"
> >Elisabeth 'n Toby
> >
> >
> >----
> 
> I think you are probably correct in the less agresive solution. also I
> think that the formulation of the copper versus black has a lot to do
> with its ability to fight through grunge. Due to the nature of our use
> (mostly restoration of old lamps) we never use commecial patinas but
> mix our own using various mixes of muriatic,copper sulfate, water and
> salt. In this way we can play with the mix to match the exsisting
> patina more closely. The more coppery patinas are achieved using copper
> sulfate and water only. The blacker the more muriatic. I think that the
> presence of the acid may be the defining difference regards grunge
> cutting.
> 
> ms
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


would it be ok if you shared the recipe for your patina, i have all the
ingrediants, but always wanted to make my own, but there is'nt any good
recipes out there..

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 08:02:51 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:00:40 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.6040.0>
References: <<199611260344.TAA00872@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >Phil Taylor wrote:
> >>
> >> I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've
> >> started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice
> at
> >> assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
> >>
>  for
> >the future, if all the sides fit perfectly, and it does'nt look
> >lop-sided, trace the inside or outside of the projects' base and make
> a
> >new bottom, which should fit like a glove, just be sure to grind here
> or
> >there and fit it in before you foil.
> >
> >---Mike Savad
> >
> >--
> 
> Dont forget to leave some room for the thickness of the foil. Nothing
> like getting a perfect fit foiling and finding that fit grew.
> 
> ms
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

welp usally when it's foiled i can usally push it through, though if i
used the back edge of my marker line when cutting, then lightly grind
it, it should be enough space for clearence.


---Mike Savad


-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 08:07:49 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:05:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.6530.0>
References: <<1996Nov26.22826.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joyce Moran wrote:
> 
> Charles Spitzer wrote:
> >
> > I found that you can buy copper sulfate at the local chemical supply store
> > cheaply. I paid around $12 for 500mg, which should be enough to make about 10
> > gallons of patina.
> >
> > Re: the age of copper patina:
> > Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little
> > distilled water should make it go back into solution. Patina shouldn't be
> > bothered by being old, as the copper sulfate doesn't degrade into other
> > chemicals.
> > ---
> 
> Have you actually tried this?  My first experience with copper sulfate
> that way, was with my 1st stained glass instructor.  She mixed the stuff
> up, but had no way of heating it in class, and our projects turned out
> absolutely awful.  (Enough to cure me of using copper patina for a long
> long time).  But  after trying the commercial stuff, I have had not
> problem getting a decent color every time.  (I have had blotchy stuff in
> the beginning days, before I knew enough to clean properly).  But her
> solution caused my project to turn an ugly brown...no shine, no nice
> coppery color,  just butt ugly!
> 
> Garden of Glass
> Joyce Moran
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

well, really, patina is designed to antique the piece and not turn it
shiny. the first patinaes made it look coppery brown, which is good if
you want to make it look like an antique.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 12:29:47 1996
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From: "Jennifer C. Grahn" <JCGRAHN@vetmed.wsu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject:       Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date:          Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:28:27 PST8PDT
Message-ID: <1970Jan1.000.0>
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I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly. 
 If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do 
you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly 
appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Jen

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 13:20:03 1996
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From: llutz <llutz@tpgi.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:20:51 +1000
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.182051.0>
References: <<1970Jan1.000.0>>
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Jennifer C. Grahn wrote:
> 
> I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly.
>  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do
> you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly
> appreciated.
I get it and find it useful- like all magazines, it has some very simple
projects & things I'm not interested in- but, it has to appeal to a wide
audience- However, I do find it generally worth getting. I'm not sure
why, but most of the product ads do not include a contact address for
the company- I suppose they assume you can go to your local dealer (in
my case- at least 250miles away). The ads at least let me know what is
available- even if it takes a long time to track it down- I have had a
new grinder on order for the past 2 months- directly from the Australian
distributer- it must be on a slow boat from the US via Europe, S.
Africa, etc. 
As for your enquiry- try a copy or borrow a copy to have a look before
you buy.
Larry from Oz

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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 13:24:55 1996
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From: roadrunner47@juno.com (Jacque E Smith)
To: glass@Bungi.com
Subject: Re: Copper Patina
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:21:30 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.212130.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.12296.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Vicky is this Glasstoys Vickie?  If so Hi! lost your other e-mail address
when my hard drive lost everything on it..including Prodigy..Let me know
if this is you...Jacque
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 15:08:07 1996
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From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Pattern Quarterly
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:57:19 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.175719.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

We recieve GPQ and are very please with the informantion, The customers like to look 
thru the mag.
Have a good day.

Walter
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 15:29:33 1996
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From: "Rund, Sharen" <Rund#m#_Sharen@MMAC.IS.LMSC.LOCKHEED.COM>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: OOF: RE: Glass Pattern Quarterly
Date: 26 Nov 1996 15:24:14 U
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.72414.0>
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Hello, I'm away from the office but will be returning on 12/2 - if you need
something - see Mike Fabel

Happy T-bird day!!!
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 17:12:11 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:08:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.15853.0>
References: <<1970Jan1.000.0>>
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Jennifer C. Grahn wrote:
> 
> I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly.
>  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do
> you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jen
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i get it, it's generally designed for beginners, but there's also fused
stuff in there too. i wish it came out more then quarterly though.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 17:14:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:11:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.15116.0>
References: <<1996Nov27.182051.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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llutz wrote:
> 
> Jennifer C. Grahn wrote:
> >
> > I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly.
> >  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do
> > you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> I get it and find it useful- like all magazines, it has some very simple
> projects & things I'm not interested in- but, it has to appeal to a wide
> audience- However, I do find it generally worth getting. I'm not sure
> why, but most of the product ads do not include a contact address for
> the company- I suppose they assume you can go to your local dealer (in
> my case- at least 250miles away). The ads at least let me know what is
> available- even if it takes a long time to track it down- I have had a
> new grinder on order for the past 2 months- directly from the Australian
> distributer- it must be on a slow boat from the US via Europe, S.
> Africa, etc.
> As for your enquiry- try a copy or borrow a copy to have a look before
> you buy.
> Larry from Oz
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

yep, i feel the same way about the magazine, it's not great, or
anything, but i think we get it 'cuz the is'nt that many magazines on
stained glass. 2 or 3 i think.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 19:24:26 1996
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From: Lee Boe <leestat@gte.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 22:20:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.172024.0>
References: <<199611260348.TAA09596@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Lee Boe
Precedence: bulk

Thanks Michael, I was just wondering where to get straight copper
sulfate.  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

Michael Smoucha wrote:
> 
> Just go to your hardware store or home center and buy some Root killer
> (for sewers and septic systems) this is 99.9% copper sulfate. about $6
> - $8 per 2lb bottle.
> >
> >Re: the age of copper patina:
> >Since the water evaporates and leaves a bluish salt, adding a little
> >distilled water should make it go back into solution. 

<SNIP>
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 19:49:34 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:19:29 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.131929.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.224225.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
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Jacque E Smith wrote:
> 
> Assembling a Hex Vase can be a bit tricky..need at least a few hands..:)
> I use masking tape ..lots of it..I lay the pieces out in order snugged up
> to each other.. and the gently lift into position..You still have quite a
> bit of flexability...You can then use a bit of tacky wax or solder in a
> couple spots to stabilize.
> A jig helps sometimes..set up over the pattern bottom and seems to help
> aligning the top section..
> 
> When I have to unfoil something..I take off the foil and use a toothbrush
> and soapy water to scrub off the adhesive....works for me.. and then dry
> thoroughly and let sit a bit before foiling again..
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Jacque,
	Thanks for the tips.  I'm going to give it a try.   T. In 
Montana
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 19:56:27 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:26:18 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.132618.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.92428.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
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Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> I'm just a novice too but I would:
> 
> -Make sure all the sides are the same size.
> -Tack the sides together at the ends, starting with two pieces and adding
> the rest one at a time. Use the bottom pattern to ensure that the inside
> angle of each of the two side is 120 degrees.
> -Since you have only tacked, the corners, you should be able to move it
> about a bit to get the opposing sides parallel.
> -Use the completed hexagonal cylinder to draw a pattern for the bottom,
> using either the inside or outside, depending one whether you want to
> bottom to fit inside or be on the outside.
> 
> I would remove all the foil and glue and start over - you will feel better
> about it. Just my $.02.
> 
> Linda Campbell
> 
> I don't speak for Metro Machine and God knows they don't have any idea what
> I'm thinking.
> 
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Linda, Thanks for the tips.  I appreciate your taking the time -- T. 
in Montana
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 19:58:39 1996
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From: Phil Taylor <chip3@montana.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:28:23 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.132823.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.14544.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Chip3 Video
Precedence: bulk

M. Savad wrote:
> 
> Phil Taylor wrote:
> >
> > I need some advice and direction on a hexagonal vase that I've
> > started.  I'm having some problems, mostly because of being a novice at
> > assembling 3-dimensional pieces.
> >         I've tried to assemble the sides in a hexagon and found
> > afterward that the assembled sides did not fit the base.  So I took the
> > sides apart to start over.
> >         Here are my questions:
> >         Do I have to use an xacto knife or something similar to remove
> > all the adhesive residue from the places where I had to remove the
> > tinned foil?
> >         Can I patch in the foil in those places where it was removed in
> > order to take the sides apart?  If so, are there any tips about how to
> > do this?
> >         Is there a way to hold the six sides in place before soldering
> > so I can fit the bottom to the assembled sides?  Or, what is the best
> > sequence for assembling?
> >         How many sides should be asssembled before trying to fit all six
> > sides together?  In other words, should I try to assemble two sets of
> > three side pieces first and then assemble those two pieces together?
> >         What keeps the six sides from changing their angle while they're
> > being soldered together?
> >         How can I make sure the bottom will fit the assembled sides?
> > I've cut to the pattern and it's exact.
> >         I would appreciate any pointers, admonishments whatever you have
> > to offer.  Thanks     T. in Montana
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ok let's see, removeing the old foil is ok, the glue should'nt hurt the
> new foil, though you should make sure it's clean of any flux. patch jobs
> are ok because it's a 3-d piece and the edges are sealed.  when your
> ready to solder tape your pieces together in the shape of the vase, (of
> course making sure that the angles all work together. when taping it
> (masking tape, or electrical tape will be fine), providing the base has
> been cut accuratly, tape the base in also. then tack all the joints. for
> the future, if all the sides fit perfectly, and it does'nt look
> lop-sided, trace the inside or outside of the projects' base and make a
> new bottom, which should fit like a glove, just be sure to grind here or
> there and fit it in before you foil.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassHi Mike,   Thanks for the tips.  You always come through and I feel 
better about fixing a mess.    T. in Montana
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From owner-glass Tue Nov 26 20:06:23 1996
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From: Lee Boe <leestat@gte.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:02:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.18214.0>
References: <<1996Nov27.182051.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Lee Boe
Precedence: bulk

Hi, 

I find GPQ very usefull, but if you want the ad's to have the address
and phone #'s of the co.'s in the ads you need to subscribe to the
magzine.  The copy's available at the Glass Store's do not have product
contact info in the ads. I have a subscription and have no trouble
contacting manufactures.  You may still get the products at your glass
Store, because mgr. direct orders are usually quite large.  (Ok if you
are a dealer or larger producing studio.)  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations  

llutz wrote:
> 
> Jennifer C. Grahn wrote:
> >
> > I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly.
> >  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do
> > you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> I get it and find it useful- like all magazines, it has some very simple
> projects & things I'm not interested in- but, it has to appeal to a wide
> audience- However, I do find it generally worth getting. I'm not sure
> why, but most of the product ads do not include a contact address for
> the company- I suppose they assume you can go to your local dealer (in
> my case- at least 250miles away). <snip>
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 04:56:09 1996
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From: Bart Huffman <bartman@BACKROADS.NET>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:54:18 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov26.235418.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961117012915.2d6f654a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Richard LaVal wrote:
> 
> I have.  Here in Costa Rica the copper sulfate crystals are all I have
> available.  I melt them in water, and warm this solution.  Then I clean
> meticulously and dry.  Put it on and wax it.  usually turns out fine, I
> suspect that the cleaning wasn't good enough in the few times it turned
> blotchy.  Also, don't judge till you have shined it, it always comes up a
> lot better than when you first apply it.
> Meg
> 

I was  wondering if you would share your recipe for patina. Since you
only use copper sulfate, and can't get commercial patinas, I figured
that  you would know what mistakes not to make with copper sulfate. 

Thanks
Bart
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 06:37:17 1996
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From: "Robert E. Jones" <rejones@CapAccess.org>
To: "Jennifer C. Grahn" <JCGRAHN@vetmed.wsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:39:42 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.43942.0>
References: <<1970Jan1.000.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Jennifer C. Grahn wrote:

> I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly. 
>  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do 
> you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly 
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jen

Jen,

About two weeks ago, I ask the same questions almost verbatim.

I got no response.

That might say something in it self.

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 08:05:46 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:03:13 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.0313.0>
References: <<1996Nov25.135819.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

The subject line of this message should be rheostats.  Since when has it
been found that a rheostat does not work with a soldering iron.  That is
the whole purpose of it...to control temperature.  This comes as a real
surprise to me.  I've used a Weller iron for some 12 years regularly with
a rheostat and have found it to regulate temperature for tinning,
soldering, and decorative soldering all at different temperatures.  I have
noticed that the Weller iron seem only to heat on one side.  I would
appreciate additional information on this.  PJ

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 08:13:06 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:10:44 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.01044.0>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19961117012915.2d6f654a@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Subject line should be cleaning solder wire.  I have found that when the
solder wire shows oxidation I take fine steel wool and go over it to rid
the wire of oxidation before I solder.  This helps give me a good clean
solder bead free from splotchy marks caused by contamination in the solder
oxides.  Anothe .02cents worth.  PJ

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 08:21:24 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:19:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.6192.0>
References: <<1996Nov27.0313.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
> 
> The subject line of this message should be rheostats.  Since when has it
> been found that a rheostat does not work with a soldering iron.  That is
> the whole purpose of it...to control temperature.  This comes as a real
> surprise to me.  I've used a Weller iron for some 12 years regularly with
> a rheostat and have found it to regulate temperature for tinning,
> soldering, and decorative soldering all at different temperatures.  I have
> noticed that the Weller iron seem only to heat on one side.  I would
> appreciate additional information on this.  PJ
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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welp, it was only on the weller, though i think there should be
something in the archives about it. something like a bi-metalic
elelement in the iron's tip, and it may be burned out if used with a
reostat. but really shoud'nt that be on the box somewhere?  but since i
don't have a weller, i'm really not sure.


---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 09:52:44 1996
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Purchasing Glass Equipment
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:52:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.7528.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 96-11-27 11:07:21 EST, you write:

<<  Since when has it
 been found that a rheostat does not work with a soldering iron.  >>

It's not that a rheostat doesn't work with a weller iron, it's just a certain
model.  Weller's 80 watt works beautifully with the rheostat, but the Weller
100 watt with Temperature Controller has a built in "rheostat".  I put that
in quotations because it does control the temperature (keeps it at 700
degrees if you use the standard tips that come with the iron), but it doesn't
allow for adjustment.  If you use the rheostat for that model, it fights with
the built in temperature controller and doesn't work for long.

Jenna
Meredith Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 10:41:15 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: 27 Nov 96 13:39:09 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.18399.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >Subject line should be cleaning solder wire.

Thread drift, continental drift, The Drifters ... it's what makes life
interesting.

Have a nice T-Day, everyone!

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________
                     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/

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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 12:17:16 1996
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From: Philip McRae <phil7@tiac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Al's T-bird
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:00:54 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.7054.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Al, ole sport,

I'm gonna pass on the bird, but really chow down on the sausage,walnut, 
and cranberry stuffing. So much so the belt will need a new notch.

Happy Thanksgivings everyone!

Phil7
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 13:33:34 1996
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From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Happy T/G
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:31:37 -0600
Message-ID: <1996Nov27.93137.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

<cough, cough>........me me me me me..........
Happy Bird-day to you.  Happy Bird-day to you.  Happy Bird-day to
everyone........Happy Bird-day to you!!!!!  :)

S.
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From owner-glass Wed Nov 27 15:16:03 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Thanksgiving - MY Version.....
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:42:49 +0000
Message-ID: <199611272315.XAA10422@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

...do..re...mi..fa... squeak , splutter, squeak..... Happy "Bird-Day" to you ALL!!
>From Across The Pond,  where we don't celebrate Thanksgiving, we (the 
Royal We) will nevertheless be with you in thoughts.

Another year is closing in, time to take stock again, time to set new 
goals....time to be grateful  for another 12 months' survival.
1997 will be a very exciting year for me personally; I will celebrate 
my first year in the Internet, 10 years as a FULL-time stained glass 
artisan; I have regained my own health (after a number of years of 
struggling to over-come numerous surgical "intrusions"), my business 
is really taking off and I have 15 firm commissions to start the new 
year with and awaiting news of another 4 (one of which involving 
about 100 sq.ft. of stained glass!!) I have made some wonderful new 
friends, some of which I hope to meet at Easter. My village is caring 
and supportive, the Colleges where I teach couldn't do enough for me. 
Sure, money isn't all that plentiful, but whoever "reigns Up There" 
might want me to sweat a bit, but sure doesn't want me to "go under".
I have a lot to be thankful for, a lot to be joyful about.
The world is full of nastiness,  ill-will and corruption. How 
wonderful to be able - just once or twice - to take a step back and 
look at the good things in Life and to be able to say "Thank You".
That to me is what a Thanksgiving Day is all about....
Thank you ALL for this last year.

Tomorrow, I will be thinking of each of you and hope you will have a 
great Day.

You will eat the BIRD; a bird is a being with wings, it is meant to 
fly; it is meant to  soar to the sky and roam the world carried by 
the wind, the air and the light. I leave you to visualize the 
symbolisms.......

All of you, be nurtured, be fed and have a wonderful time! Then let's 
get back and tease, inform, discuss, debate and argue.
As  stained glass artisans, we are the Messengers of  Colour & Light.
As regards  ME, I am just a rotten old Viking Heathen, who just would like to 
grab this chance to say thank you and wish you well and a wonderful 
Day!
Greta The Frightful Viking (alias Elisabeth 'n Toby)
 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 28 02:45:03 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: 28 Nov 96 05:42:43 EST
Message-ID: <1996Nov28.104243.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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I will be unable to pick up my mail until Monday and know my mailbox will go
over the 100 limit if I say tuned.  I'll tune in again when I'm back.

Monona

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From owner-glass Thu Nov 28 03:39:20 1996
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X-Path: coventry.ac.uk!byx015
From: Mike Simpson <byx015@coventry.ac.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: U.K. suppliers of Kokomo glass
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 11:38:51 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <1996Nov28.113851.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Are there any British suppliers of Kokomo glass? Also Chicago Art
glass, Youghiogheny and Bullseye. I tend to need smallish 
quantities, from 4 to 10 sq. ft. but this is more than is found
in the "random packs" that a few suppliers have. 

I already have a good supplier of Uroboros and erratic supplies
of Bullseye and know that Decorative Glass Supplies in Bingley
are getting a stock of Kokomo in February but I need some now.

Thanks for any help that you can give,

Mike Simpson.


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From owner-glass Thu Nov 28 09:28:17 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: U.K. suppliers of Kokomo glass
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:54:33 +0000
Message-ID: <199611281727.RAA01767@linux.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Hello Mike (Simpson),
Where in UK are you based??

The first obvious place is James  Hetley & Co Ltd in London; special 
"Mail Order"  tel. No. 0171- 780 2346. Gen. Fax No.: 0171-790-0201

Further afield...: Pearsons Glass Ltd in Liverpool: tel: 0151-207 
1474; fax: 0151- 207 2110
                                                   in East Kilbride: 
013552-30175 (no fax)

Let me know how you get on....
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Thu Nov 28 14:56:31 1996
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From: "Kathy Sagy" <reflections@brinet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 17:51:10 -0600
Message-ID: <199611282359.SAA12384@bones.brinet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Pretty to look at and pricey.  The flyer given away by your local glass
store is better.  The price is the same from the Glass Patterns Quarterly
as it is in the store, look throuh one @ your favorite glass store before
you subscribe!

----------
> From: Jennifer C. Grahn <JCGRAHN@vetmed.wsu.edu>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Glass Patterns Quarterly
> Date: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 6:28 AM
> 
> I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly. 
>  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do 
> you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly 
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Jen
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 05:12:52 1996
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X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:08:36 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.16.19961127155439.2eef2958@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am afraid that I haven't been very scientific with my measurements.  Will
try to check them and get back to you.  Basically I just use a copper
sulfate and water solution, and warm it.  Meg


At 07:54 AM 11/27/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Richard LaVal wrote:
>> 
>> I have.  Here in Costa Rica the copper sulfate crystals are all I have
>> available.  I melt them in water, and warm this solution.  Then I clean
>> meticulously and dry.  Put it on and wax it.  usually turns out fine, I
>> suspect that the cleaning wasn't good enough in the few times it turned
>> blotchy.  Also, don't judge till you have shined it, it always comes up a
>> lot better than when you first apply it.
>> Meg
>> 
>
>I was  wondering if you would share your recipe for patina. Since you
>only use copper sulfate, and can't get commercial patinas, I figured
>that  you would know what mistakes not to make with copper sulfate. 
>
>Thanks
>Bart
>----
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>
>
Richard and Meg LaVal
apdo. 24-5655
Monteverde
COSTA RICA
tel: 506 645 5052

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 05:16:29 1996
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From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:13:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.31339.0>
References: <<199611282359.SAA12384@bones.brinet.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Kathy Sagy wrote:
> 
> Pretty to look at and pricey.  The flyer given away by your local glass
> store is better.  The price is the same from the Glass Patterns Quarterly
> as it is in the store, look throuh one @ your favorite glass store before
> you subscribe!
> 
> ----------
> > From: Jennifer C. Grahn <JCGRAHN@vetmed.wsu.edu>
> > To: glass@bungi.com
> > Subject: Glass Patterns Quarterly
> > Date: Tuesday, November 26, 1996 6:28 AM
> >
> > I wanted to know if anyone on the list gets Glass Patterns Quarterly.
> >  If anyone does what do you think of it?  Is it worth the money?  do
> > you find it useful?  Any input good or bad would be greatly
> > appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> >
> > Jen


Personally I think Glass Patterns Quarterly is great for what it is.  It 
gives precise information about a project from start to finish.  The 
only problem is that most people don't want to do the same project as 
30,000 other people, and may only be interested in one or two patterns 
out of the whole magazine, and quickly tire of paying out $4.50 for a 
lot of stuff they will never use.

Personally, I have always been a collector of patterns, and sometimes 
5-10 years down the line, it has paid off.  When someone asks me "Can 
you do a peacock?"  I remember the beautiful front cover, and can pull 
out that peacock design right in front of their eyes...they are amazed.
For some reason, my steel trap mind doesn't remember all the patterns in 
all the pattern books, so I'm not as amazing with those in front of a 
customer.  And my customers love to see it already done in full color, 
so they can visualize what it will look like in their homes.  Glass 
Patterns Quarterly does a great job at photographing these patterns.

Those are some of the reasons why I still buy Glass Patterns Quarterly.

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 12:47:50 1996
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From: April Paine <vgplugs@primeline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Speciality Framing 
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:52:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.75232.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Victorian Greenhouse & Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

Is there a better mecnhanism than a pantograph to guide a router from a 
template or stencil to do lettering etc- ?


"I try to live and enjoy today so that I will not give all my 
happiness to what is my ideal of tomorrow." April Momma to 
little Charlie 3/96, Jasmine 2/85, Teran 2/87
----
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 15:59:28 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Speciality Framing
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:56:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.135636.0>
References: <<1996Nov29.75232.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

April Paine wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Is there a better mecnhanism than a pantograph to guide a router from a
> template or stencil to do lettering etc- ?
> 
> "I try to live and enjoy today so that I will not give all my
> happiness to what is my ideal of tomorrow." April Momma to
> little Charlie 3/96, Jasmine 2/85, Teran 2/87
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


as far as i know, no. there is that new router, that's supposed to cut
easily through things, alond with it being easy to control.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 17:31:10 1996
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From: Dave Loda <dloda@fbo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Patterns Quarterly
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:37:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.93717.0>
References: <<199611282359.SAA12384@bones.brinet.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Kathy Sagy wrote:
> 
> Pretty to look at and pricey.  The flyer given away by your local glass
> store is better.  The price is the same from the Glass Patterns Quarterly
> as it is in the store, look throuh one @ your favorite glass store before
> you subscribe!
> 
Actually, it's cheaper to by it from your glass supplier than to
subscribe.


Dave Loda
Stained Glass of Newport
> ----------
>
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 18:14:42 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cheap copper sulfate
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:13:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.161342.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Richard,

I would be interested in knowing the water/copper sulfate proportions.  And
How warm???  Just under boiling, hot to touch, etc.

Thanks

Lee Boe 
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 20:30:51 1996
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From: leestat7 <leestat7@home.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Test Message
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 23:26:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.182623.0>
References: <<1996Nov26.18214.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: @Home Network
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A test message to check new address
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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 22:07:09 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Test Message
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:06:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.20614.0>
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Returning test msg.

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From owner-glass Fri Nov 29 22:18:51 1996
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From: LNETWORKS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hexagonal Vase
Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 01:18:02 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Nov29.20182.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just one other thought, when you cut something with identical size pieces (or
supposed to be) , stack the pieces together.  One on top of each other, and
check the size.  Any that are not quite the right size will show up before
foiling, and can be ground to be the right size.  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations
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From owner-glass Sat Nov 30 09:01:28 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0vTslt-0000Axa; Sat, 30 Nov 96 09:00 PST
X-Path: net-magic.net!tcn
From: tcn@net-magic.net (Boatwright, W.L.)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Router
Date: Sun, 01 Dec 1996 11:55:09 +0000
Message-ID: <1996Dec1.11559.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Craft Nook, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

To April Pain,

April yes there are two companies that makes templetes that makes the use of a router 
very easy.. We use the EZ Route System and the other one is Join Tech. If i can be of 
any help please contact us at:
The Craft Nook, Inc.
227 South 8th Street
Fernandina Bch., Fla.
32034
904-321-1601
Email tcn@net-magic.net
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For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

