From owner-glass Sat Jun  1 04:44:58 1996
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From: mack@spdc.ti.com (Caren Mack)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Heating Patina
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 06:43:02 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <9606011143.AA14203@epcot.spdc.ti.com>
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     Most, if not all of you may know this but I feel compelled
to mention this...

     Several have mentioned heating Patina.  A word of caution,
as with any chemical and in this case an acid, there is a flash
point when they catch fire, so be carefull.  I tried to to do
a search on the WWW to see if I could find the flash point of
copper sulfate, but my system went down.  Warming may be fine
like setting your bottle in warm water which has been mentioned, 
but warmer/hotter is not better, so don't "heat" it on the stove 
or microwave.
     Like I said above, you all may know this and hope I didn't
insult anyones intelligence.  If I didn't work in the Electronic 
industry and educated about safety, safety, safety around chemicals, 
I may not have thought anything about it.

     Good luck!

     -= Caren =-
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From owner-glass Sat Jun  1 17:15:38 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Restoration Questions
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:14:01 -0700
Message-ID: <199606020014.RAA02868@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>


>
>
>This is not completely true I saw a house where it was intentionally 
>down, it was a curve to match the building, although you could see the 

>curve in the zinc.  But chances are that it's just stretched.
>
>---Mike Savad
>----
>
There is a big difference between a radial curved window in a curved 
sash and a bowed window in a flat sash. the latter is what I am 
reffering to. I to have seen and fabricated intentionally curved 
panels. These are not buckled and bowed!

M.S.
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From owner-glass Sat Jun  1 17:18:32 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Heating Patina
Date: 01 Jun 96 20:15:16 EDT
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>     Several have mentioned heating Patina.  A word of caution, >as with any
chemical and in this case an acid, there is a flash >point when they catch fire,
so be carefull.<

Good thinking Caron.  But the problem with the acids is not flash point but the
fact that with heat, the acids become airborne rapidly and can be inhaled.

In addition, many of the commercial patinas are interesting mixtures which
release rotten-egg odor hydrogen sulfide.  This chemical has good warning odor,
but it is almost at toxic as cyanide.   And the other day, I found out that a
particular patina contained hydrochloric acid and tellurium.  Heating this can
make highly toxic tellurium chloride airborne.  It has a garlicky odor.  There
are a bunch of nasties that don't have much odor in patinas as well.

People who decide to heat patinas need to be working by a window exhaust fan or
some other strong ventilation system.

>....... don't "heat" it on the stove or microwave.<

Listen to Caren, people.

>If I didn't work in the Electronic industry and educated about safety, >safety,
safety around chemicals, I may not have thought anything about it.<

I'm so glad to hear that's true.  I deal with workers in the "arts" industry,
especially in schools and universities.  Most of these people think safety is a
field goal.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist with Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety

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From owner-glass Sat Jun  1 17:19:59 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Heating Patina
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:19:22 -0700
Message-ID: <199606020019.RAA29448@dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>     Most, if not all of you may know this but I feel compelled
>to mention this...
>
>     Several have mentioned heating Patina.  A word of caution,
>as with any chemical and in this case an acid, there is a flash
>point when they catch fire, so be carefull.  I tried to to do
>a search on the WWW to see if I could find the flash point of
>copper sulfate, but my system went down.  Warming may be fine
>like setting your bottle in warm water which has been mentioned, 
>but warmer/hotter is not better, so don't "heat" it on the stove 
>or microwave.
>     Like I said above, you all may know this and hope I didn't
>insult anyones intelligence.  If I didn't work in the Electronic 
>industry and educated about safety, safety, safety around chemicals, 
>I may not have thought anything about it.
>
>     Good luck!
>
>     -= Caren =-
>----
>
All very good points and I don't think that you can be to careful as 
far as safety is concerned. 

M.S.


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From owner-glass Sat Jun  1 21:01:29 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Restoration Question
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:02:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun1.2023.0>
References: <<1996May31.212937.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T and M Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Albert Lewis [IGGA] wrote:
> 
>    >With all due respect, glass IS a liquid. (I should know, I'm a chemist.)
>    >Although crowning was an intentional method of producing glass, it is
>    >also true that old panes will tend to be thinker at the bottom.
>    >However, you are correct that a 200 year old pane will not see a lot of
>    >settling, this is probably due to crowning.  But many panes,
>    >particularly those found in England and Ireland which date back to the
>    >13th and 14th Centuries, are thinker at the bottom due to flowing glass.
> 
> Matt,
> 
> On a molecular level, glass exhibits the properties of both solids and liquids,
> but I'd certainly be interested in a *proof* that there's a measurable flow.
> Can you cite chapter, verse and source(s)?<SNIP> 
> But more to the point, "... it has been argued that cold glass should exhibit
> gradual plastic flow over very long periods of time. However, demonstrations to
> prove this have usually involved a misunderstanding of the actual mechanism
> involved, or misinterpretation of the evidence. Thus the various phenomena which
> have been claimed to demonstrate plastic flow in cold glass must be scrutinized
> carefully. ... It has also been claimed that medieval window glass is thicker at
> the bottom of the panes, again due to plastic flow, but there is no evidence for
> this and in fact medieval glass was often so irregular in thickness that there
> can be no reliable evidence that its thickness has changed." [Newton and
> Davison, Conservation of Glass, Butterworths, London, 1989. p. 13]
> 
> Since Roy Newton is the acknowledged master of this particular realm of
> knowledge (he's an OBE, DSc, HonFSGT, FSA, after all!) and professor emeritus of
> glass technology at the School of Materials, University of Sheffield, I think
> I'll defer to him. <g>

Albert,

Let me first start by saying that sarcasm is not your strong suit.  It it neither 
necessary nor appreciated.  I've become quite frustrated with the tone that many posts 
have taken since certain individuals have joined the list.  I concur wholly with Toby 
that we should try to be less aloof and more cooperative on this international forum of 
glass information and discussion.

As for *proof*, I'm sure that Mr. Newton is knowledgable, but no good scientist ever 
denouces another scientist's findings without performing a study himself.  Other sources 
have stated that glass, at room temperature, is plastic.  I'm not going to substatiate 
this argument by wasting my time going through all of my textbooks, but I will, at 
least, cite Hawley's Chemical Dictionary:

"...glass is an amorphous, undercooled LIQUID of extremely high VISCOSITY which has all 
of the appearances of a solid."

In other words, glass flows, slowly, but it flows.

Let me request a courteous end to this argument and let us agree to disagree.

Sincerely,

Matt McDonnell

-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Sun Jun  2 03:36:19 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Restoration Question
Date: 02 Jun 96 06:35:05 EDT
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Matt,

There was no intention on my part to be sarcastic, but merely to point out the
facts of the matter.  I'm sorry if you took my comments in that way.

Roy Newton is beyond "knowledgeable" ... he's the reigning authority on the
subject who references every other study done by every other scientist and whose
book is heavily footnoted.  If I were "aloof," as you say, I wouldn't have
answered your post in the spirit of correcting erroneous information at all, but
merely ignored it for the fable that it is.

Newton also does not denounce any other scientist's findings, nor did I say so
in my post.  I invited you to cite other sources proving that glass moves at
room temperature, but you won't "waste" your time by offering them.

Your citation of Hawley's Chemical Dictionary only confirms what I said at the
outset, that glass exhibits the properties of both liquid and solids. That
doesn't mean that it flows or, if it flows, that it does so at a rate that would
result in panes of glass thicker at the bottom after 700 years. And even if it
did, how do you plan to prove that medieval glass has done so?  How would you
measure it when it was newly installed?  It's exactly that point that Newton
makes; there's no way to know the answer to the particular question of medieval
glass, but measuring glass that we *do have as new using tests the cost of which
is far beyond *our poor means, has shown that the presssure/stress needed to
move the glass even a *tiny amount is a hundred times its theoretical breaking
point, far beyond the point at which it would fracture into a "millyun pieces,"
as Carl Sagan might put it. <s>

Now I will be sarcastic, though: if by "agree to disagree" you mean that you are
going to maintain the truth of what you say despite the fact that you can't or
won't "waste" your time to prove it and despite the studies and published
reports of reigning authorities, scientists all, and that you will insist on
taking the opposite point of view regardless, I'll accept those terms.  We don't
learn, though, by clasping erroneous beliefs to our breasts and breaking into
tears when someone else proves that they're wrong.

                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

P.S.  I took a look at your web site ... very nice!  Although I couldn't make
out what the dark, muddy hypertext logo was just to the right of the Yahoo logo.
I left you a messsage to that effect, since you asked for suggestions and
corrections ... did you get it?

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From owner-glass Sun Jun  2 03:36:20 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Heating Patina
Date: 02 Jun 96 06:35:02 EDT
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   >Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist with
   >Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety

And, we're proud to say, a member of the IGGA Board! <g>
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Sun Jun  2 09:23:30 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Restoration Question
Date: 02 Jun 96 12:21:45 EDT
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   >P.S.  I took a look at your web site ... very nice!  Although I couldn't
   >make out what the dark, muddy hypertext logo was just to the right of the
   >Yahoo logo.  I left you a messsage to that effect, since you asked for
   >suggestions and corrections ... did you get it?

Matt,

I guess you did! <g>  I just took a look and the new version of the logo is
terrific!  Much nicer with a white background.  You changed the Yahoo logo, too,
I guess.  Heck!  If I were you, I'd tweak the left-hand one to match ... maybe
it's just my tired old (with the emphasis on "old") eyes, but I find the colored
type easier to read against white than against black or other dark colors. <s>

Albert

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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 06:15:46 1996
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From: Andrea King <aking@source.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Drapery Glass
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:12:39 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Jan8.151239.0>
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Hi to all once again,

Its good to be back on line after a short break.  I have a question that 
someone out there may by able to help me with.  How do you foil drapery  
glass?  I recently went to a seminar run by Urobos and when we were 
talking about drapery glass I never thought until much later to ask the 
question of how to foil it.  

We here in Australia are heading into winter of which I am not looking 
forward to but thankfully we don't have the extreme cold some of you had 
earlier this year.

Looking forward to getting back into discussions with you all.

Andrea

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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 06:38:54 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 09:35:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun3.53541.0>
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Andrea King wrote:
> 
> Hi to all once again,
> 
> Its good to be back on line after a short break.  I have a question that
> someone out there may by able to help me with.  How do you foil drapery
> glass?  I recently went to a seminar run by Urobos and when we were
> talking about drapery glass I never thought until much later to ask the
> question of how to foil it.
> 
> We here in Australia are heading into winter of which I am not looking
> forward to but thankfully we don't have the extreme cold some of you had
> earlier this year.
> 
> Looking forward to getting back into discussions with you all.
> 
> Andrea
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I've never done it myself, but I'm sure it's a real pain.  I would 
probably try using 3/8" foil, then carefully fold it over and get it in 
all the nooks and crannies.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 08:27:27 1996
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From: GCmagazine@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:26:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun3.72624.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Foiling drapery glass can be a project in itself. Be sure to keep extra wide
foil on hand for those edges that go from wide to wider. Most drapery glass
has edges of varying thickness. What we suggest is to begin foiling your
pieces with the thinnest foil that is practical for the size of the piece,
and then go over thicker areas with either a patch of the same foil (foiled
over the original foiled area to double its width) or with a wider (7/32" or
1/4") foil, whichever will produce a more pleasing leadline. be sure to keep
your meeting edges neat so that you cannot see where the foil overlaps. The
trick is to keep the amount of foil folded over the edges of the glass
consistent looking, no matter how wide the foil is or how many layers were
necessary to foil it properly.  

Good Luck!


Glass Craftsman Magazine 
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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 11:17:45 1996
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From: krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu (Kathe R. McDonald)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Heating Patina
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:16:33 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <199606031816.LAA01590@peseta.ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Caren: Thanks for the warning on patina. I had chem 1a and should know
better, but hey...I just melted an aluminum measuring cup yesterday with
pool acid so.....I haven't tried warming patina yet but will do so
cautiously!

Kathe R. McDonald
Office of Curricular Support
"Aint no time to hate." J. Garcia 1995


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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 11:28:14 1996
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From: Marissa Toghyani <marissat@atlas.na.informix.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: where is everybody?
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 14:31:34 -0500
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is the server down?  I'm not getting any glass email & I miss it.

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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 13:01:44 1996
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From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:01:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun3.1213.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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In a message dated 96-06-03 09:39:23 EDT, morn@mars.superlink.net (M. Savad)
writes:

>> 
>> Hi to all once again,
>> 
>> Its good to be back on line after a short break.  I have a question that
>> someone out there may by able to help me with.  How do you foil drapery
>> glass?  I recently went to a seminar run by Urobos and when we were
>> talking about drapery glass I never thought until much later to ask the
>> question of how to foil it.
> 
>> Andrea

>
>I've never done it myself, but I'm sure it's a real pain.  I would 
>probably try using 3/8" foil, then carefully fold it over and get it in 
>all the nooks and crannies.
>
>---Mike Savad

One of the companies that makes grinders, makes a grinding head that flattens
out the edge of this type of foil making it easy to work with.  I haven't
tried it myself but have been thinking of trying one out.  Has anyone else
tried it??

Janet Farrington
IMN2GLASS@aol.com
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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 16:17:18 1996
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From: "Earle E. Sharrow" <sharrow@lightlink.com>
To: Marissa Toghyani <marissat@atlas.na.informix.com>
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 19:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun3.151238.0>
References: <<2.2.32.19960603193134.002a6134@atlas>>
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Precedence: bulk

I'm getting mail from bungi.com as usual,and your mail is getting there 
OK. This reply is just to let you know. If you continue to get nothing, 
re-subscribe. Good luck.

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Marissa Toghyani wrote:

> is the server down?  I'm not getting any glass email & I miss it.
> 
> ----
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> 
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From owner-glass Mon Jun  3 18:11:31 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: oh no, not again
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 18:03:47 -0500
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

A simple tip for drapery (if it is really drapery glass) and not just a
ripple....
Hold the glass at an angle to the grinding bit and chamfer (bevel) it a
little.
By the nature of it, you do not need a clean foil line.
Enjoy....H
*note the lack of acerbic wit.
--
new construction 5-11-96... http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/hrubin.htm
                            http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 15:30:52 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:17:38 +0000
Message-ID: <199606042234.XAA19607@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Precedence: bulk

To Craftsman Magazine in particular, every one else in general.

Teaching stained glass techniques does have its pitfalls; introducing 
students  s l o w l y  to the mind-boggling variety of glass is  
quite a restriction (you do so want to make them "fly") I have 
encountered students who  have "done" one first panel and want to 
dive straight into copper-foiling techniques. They disappear into a 
dreamy mist when let loose inside a glass supplier and turn up in 
class with pieces of drapery glass tht they expect being  able to foil and 
make sense out of  in 5 minutes. What to do with all these "bumps and 
lumps"!!?? I am an evil, wicked, spiteful teacher - I deny all my 
beginner/intermediate students ANY facility of electrical grinders. 
Grind it down BY HAND, get the FEEL of the glass, see for yoyrself 
where ITS weaknesses are, where YOUR weaknesses are. When you know 
first how to cut what you describe as "lumps and bumps" and can do it 
(at your cost!!) well, learn to use copperfoil in such a way that 
edges and overlaps don't show up, THEN and only then will I let you 
near a grinder. I am very appreciative of your comments about 
copper-foiling drapery glass (as we know it). Input from people like 
you is very valueable. It confirms a lot of theory of what a lot of 
us just "feel is right", without always knowing why.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 15:30:56 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Soldering Irons Weller W100
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:17:39 +0000
Message-ID: <199606042234.XAA19609@linux.nildram.co.uk>
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Picked up your messages about problems of cleaning flux and patina. 
It seems to have gone round full circle, as I remember saying a week 
or so that nothing substitutes a little old-fashioned "elbow grease" 
for cleaning. Am delighted that this is now the experience of the 
come-back messages. As regards the "pot-cleaners" instead of fine 
real wire wool, they are an excellent idea. The problem in UK  is  that these pot 
cleaners are so minuscule, that  you end up with nothing between your 
finger tips and the  lead/solder. Only very lately have substitute "plastic" wire wool 
- in different grades - been properly on the market here - in proper 
"hand-fist sizes" . One of my students brought some along to  Class in a considerable quantity 
(he'd got it for free!!) I myself want to work with a reasonable "wadge" in my hands that I can 
manouvre over the solder.  Plastic Pot cleaners, as WE know them 
across The Pond, disintegrate to nothing. And what the dog hasn't 
managed to find and shred, you are left wiring down with your  bare finger 
nails . Great "turn-on" for a romantic evening out!!!!
Good luck to Katie and Meg in Costa Rica.
Elisabeth
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 15:32:45 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 15:31:07 -0700
Message-ID: <199606042231.PAA27516@dfw-ix8.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Foiling drapery glass can be a project in itself. Be sure to keep 
extra wide
>foil on hand for those edges that go from wide to wider. Most drapery 
glass
>has edges of varying thickness. What we suggest is to begin foiling 
your
>pieces with the thinnest foil that is practical for the size of the 
piece,
>and then go over thicker areas with either a patch of the same foil 
(foiled
>over the original foiled area to double its width) or with a wider 
(7/32" or
>1/4") foil, whichever will produce a more pleasing leadline. be sure 
to keep
>your meeting edges neat so that you cannot see where the foil 
overlaps. The
>trick is to keep the amount of foil folded over the edges of the glass
>consistent looking, no matter how wide the foil is or how many layers 
were
>necessary to foil it properly.  
>
>Good Luck!
>
>


Another way to go is to foil the whole piece with 1/2" foil and then 
using an exacto knive trim the foil line to a desired width all along. 
Using this technique you can get some very fine lines. We often use it 
to restore painted pieces with a hair line of foil showing.

M.S.

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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 16:57:37 1996
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From: FStryczek@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Stained Glass Candle Holders
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 19:57:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun4.15572.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

About 10 or 15 years ago I bought a votive-type candle holder that was
decorated with stained glass.  It is 3" wide, and 6" tall.  Basically, it is
a clear glass candle "jar" that has 1/2" strips of stained glass glued
vertically around the outside, with some kind of black grout used to fill in
the spaces between the pieces of glass.  The glue that was used was clear,
allowing for the use of even cathedral glass, with no measurable distortion
of color or transparency.

This candle holder has held up nicely over the years, with no glass pieces
coming un-glued, nor has the black grout deteriorated in any way.  With the
many boxes of scrap glass that I've accumulated over the years, I would like
to make some of these candle holders for gifts and possibly as a sale item.
 Can anyone recommend sources for:

Clear glue for glass that can withstand candle flame heat?
Black grout that can withstand candle flame heat?
Clear glass votive-type candle "jars"?

any advice would be appreciated.  Thanks!

Frank Stryczek
Des Plaines, Illinois, USA
FStryczek@aol.com
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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 20:14:41 1996
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From: dsymington@hopserv.interhop.net (Don Symington)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: transoms?
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:02:39 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606050302.XAA05434@hopserv.interhop.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

        Just a quick question regarding strength of the finished projects.
I am VERY new at this hobby but have great enthusiasm...
        
        I have a transom that is simply begging for stained glass.  It
measures approximately 43 inches at the base and 20 inches high.   My
concern is that the few larger projects that I have worked on (with foil)
have felt slightly flexible.  Is there a secret (different solder or more of
it, specific glass cleaner, wider foil?? framing?) or is it recommended I
learn to use came before attempting the larger transoms and sidelights?   

        One other problem I have experienced in my short career is that the
foil lifts from the glass on occation...was my glass not clean enough,
should I have spent more time pressing it to the glass?

Any words of wisdom?
Thanks,  Stacey

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From owner-glass Tue Jun  4 23:31:29 1996
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From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 23:30:48 -0700
Message-ID: <199606050630.XAA12284@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>One of the companies that makes grinders, makes a grinding head that 
flattens out the edge of this type of foil making it easy to work with. 
 I haven't tried it myself but have been thinking of trying one out.  
Has anyone else tried it??
>
>Janet Farrington
>IMN2GLASS@aol.com
>----
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>
We have used the bit you are talking about and love it!  You get an 
edge which is easier to foil and burnish and a very pretty lead line.  
Gives a nice contrast to the heavy texture of the glass.  Works with 
all heavily textured glasses.
Teresa
Color It Glass!

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 01:50:22 1996
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From: Andrea King <aking@source.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 18:49:31 -0800
Message-ID: <1996Jan10.104931.0>
References: <<199606050630.XAA12284@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>>
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Precedence: bulk

RICK D VAUGHN wrote:
> 
> You wrote:
> >
> >One of the companies that makes grinders, makes a grinding head that
> flattens out the edge of this type of foil making it easy to work with.
>  I haven't tried it myself but have been thinking of trying one out.
> Has anyone else tried it??
> >
> >Janet Farrington
> >IMN2GLASS@aol.com
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> We have used the bit you are talking about and love it!  You get an
> edge which is easier to foil and burnish and a very pretty lead line.
> Gives a nice contrast to the heavy texture of the glass.  Works with
> all heavily textured glasses.
> Teresa
> Color It Glass!

Can you tell me what this bit is called, sounds a very handy piece to 
have on hand.

Thanks everyone for your advice and tips on using drapery glass, and yes 
Howard it is drapery glass not ripple and it was nice to have your input. 

Andrea

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 09:07:04 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transoms?
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:03:39 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun5.8339.0>
References: <<199606050302.XAA05434@hopserv.interhop.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Don Symington wrote:
> 
>         Just a quick question regarding strength of the finished projects.
> I am VERY new at this hobby but have great enthusiasm...
> 
>         I have a transom that is simply begging for stained glass.  It
> measures approximately 43 inches at the base and 20 inches high.   My
> concern is that the few larger projects that I have worked on (with foil)
> have felt slightly flexible.  Is there a secret (different solder or more of
> it, specific glass cleaner, wider foil?? framing?) or is it recommended I
> learn to use came before attempting the larger transoms and sidelights?
> 
>         One other problem I have experienced in my short career is that the
> foil lifts from the glass on occation...was my glass not clean enough,
> should I have spent more time pressing it to the glass?
> 
> Any words of wisdom?
> Thanks,  Stacey
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well, as for the foil sticking, was the glass ground? if it was make 
sure a wash it off under running water and get all the powder off. was 
the glass clean to start with? when ever i start a project i always 
clean both sides of the glass until it's absolutely clean. what size 
foil or how old is the foil? do you have lotion on your hands? is the 
glass still damp? and most important of all do you rub all sides down 
with a fid of some kind (a length of wood works, i use a 1/4" dowel that 
i ground in a pencil sharpener.)

For the transom, there is a few things that you can do:

1. You can put reinforcing tape in between the joints, on flexible 
looking joints.

2. You can bend rebar to match the foil lines, very difficult.

3. You can divide the transom into quarters, like a sun, making smaller 
windows.

4. You may also want to use came around the borders, border came is 
usually used, it is usually zinc, however since there is a curve (I'm 
assuming) you should use lead, maybe even lead with a brass heart 
(stronger).

5. Or you could leave it flexible, tough you should at least bead one 
side if not both (if you don't already). The panel can stay flexible, 
until it goes into the opening. I made a 3'x3' panel once and it flopped 
around like paper, but once I got that oak border around it, it's pretty 
darn strong.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 09:09:17 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Drapery Glass
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 12:06:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun5.8628.0>
References: <<1996Jan10.104931.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Andrea King wrote:
> 
> RICK D VAUGHN wrote:
> >
> > You wrote:
> > >
> > >One of the companies that makes grinders, makes a grinding head that
> > flattens out the edge of this type of foil making it easy to work with.
> >  I haven't tried it myself but have been thinking of trying one out.
> > Has anyone else tried it??
> > >
> > >Janet Farrington
> > >IMN2GLASS@aol.com
> > >----
> > >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> > >
> > We have used the bit you are talking about and love it!  You get an
> > edge which is easier to foil and burnish and a very pretty lead line.
> > Gives a nice contrast to the heavy texture of the glass.  Works with
> > all heavily textured glasses.
> > Teresa
> > Color It Glass!
> 
> Can you tell me what this bit is called, sounds a very handy piece to
> have on hand.
> 
> Thanks everyone for your advice and tips on using drapery glass, and yes
> Howard it is drapery glass not ripple and it was nice to have your input.
> 
> Andrea
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


There's a couple the first is the ripple bit from spectrum, another is a 
simple angle bit that chamfers the edge.


---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 09:27:48 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transom
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:24:28 -0500
Message-ID: <199606051624.LAA01663@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Stacey, remember one thing.... REAL STAINED GLASS ARTISTS USE LEAD

OH! OH! that was pretty political! I bet I've opened up a can of worms for sure!

Oh well, somebody needs to build a fire under this list anyway.


Len

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 14:09:44 1996
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From: txh4@po.cwru.edu (Theodore P. Hasenstaub)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Statement
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:08:52 -0400
Message-ID: <199606052108.RAA03672@arthur.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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I always thought that "Stained Glass Artists Were Always A Cut Above the Rest".

Ted

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 15:20:56 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Statement
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:17:48 -0500
Message-ID: <199606052217.RAA07768@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
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I don't know about that Theodore, sounds pretty dualistic to me.

I think some really know the score, while to others its merely a grind.


Len

  


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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 15:45:56 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: transom
Date: 05 Jun 96 16:52:41 EDT
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   >REAL STAINED GLASS ARTISTS USE LEAD
   >OH! OH! that was pretty political! I bet I've opened up a can of worms
   >for sure!

Hmm.  Wonder if ol' Looie Tiffany's spinning in his grave? <g>

                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 15:50:54 1996
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From: jbbrauer@eos.ncsu.edu
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement 
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 18:40:39 EDT
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Will you two give me a break?  (ha)
James
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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 17:11:04 1996
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From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 20:10:34 -0400
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Ted,

You're a real cut up, you are.  You really crack me up.  :-)

Janet
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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 18:58:58 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: semantics
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 18:52:20 -0500
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

To the best of my limited knowledge, we as a group in general are REALLY
working with colored glass. The term "stained glass" refers to the painting
on glass, usually associated with church windows. When you see an ad for
stained glass in the museum type catalogs, they are right in terming it
stained glass. The glass that we use is COLORED in the manufacturing, rather
than being stained with paint.
Back to my mellow self, not much desire (can be changed in a flash, however)
to upset the "list-eners".
Enjoy....H

--
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                            http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Wed Jun  5 19:08:31 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE:transom
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 21:05:11 -0500
Message-ID: <199606060205.VAA10894@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

That comes as news to me, I thought ol' Looie was in cryonic
storage...pre-paid...with daddy's money.

All kidding aside, I've been fortunate to have done resto work on Tiffany
windows, amazing glass no, more correctly amazing USE of glass. The plating
alone was worth the price of admission. I envied his pallette for the
longest time until I became aware of some wonderful minimalist work I then
realized it's not what ya got but how ya use it. 

My earlier comment on lead was merely a reflection of the jaded opinionated
attitudes of some of the old school "shop guys" under who I served my
apprentiships. Just goofin' around (it was the caffine talking) 


Stacey, most people learn beginning stained glass using copper foil it's
faster,cleaner,less phsically demanding and more compact. Advanced crafters
can do just about any thing using that process. There are some limitations
to both methods and it's your awareness of those mechanical limitations that
come into play when cartooning a design.Probably the biggest difference
between the two is ability to dramatically vary the size of the lead lines
I've used lead as much as 3/4" across the face in some large windows it's
this versatility along with a certain crispness of line thatis difficult to
achieve with foil that makes lead my preference.  Should you learn how? If
you have the time the inclination and a good teacher you bet!

Len

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 05:41:57 1996
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From:         HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu
To:           glass@bungi.com
Subject:      RE: Statement
Date:         Thu, 06 Jun 96 08:34:50 EDT
Message-ID:   <960606.083945.EDT.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
References: <<199606052217.RAA07768@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Okay, guys, it is transparently obvious that when we scratch the surface,
you're all a bunch of cut-ups.

By the way, has anyone actually repaired a grinder?  Know if there are
parts available for Glastars?  My grinder is getting cranky. Often, when
turning it on, we have to give it a little spin by hand to get it
going.

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 06:12:38 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:12:08 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.5128.0>
References: <<960606.083945.EDT.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

> By the way, has anyone actually repaired a grinder?  Know if there are
> parts available for Glastars?  My grinder is getting cranky. Often, when
> turning it on, we have to give it a little spin by hand to get it
> going.

How old is it?  I consider the Glastar line to be quite affordable.  Instead of trying to repair an old dog, buy a new one and use the old one 
for parts.

I must admit, they can be quirky.  We've had problems with the on/off swtich...sometimes it works, sometimes we've got to filip it on and off 
a couple of times.  Like they say, you get what you pay for.  By the time they're ready to die, they've usually paid for themselves.

Matt McDonnell

-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 09:37:00 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:33:52 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.83352.0>
References: <<960606.083945.EDT.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>>
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Precedence: bulk

HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu wrote:
> 
> Okay, guys, it is transparently obvious that when we scratch the surface,
> you're all a bunch of cut-ups.
> 
> By the way, has anyone actually repaired a grinder?  Know if there are
> parts available for Glastars?  My grinder is getting cranky. Often, when
> turning it on, we have to give it a little spin by hand to get it
> going.
> 
> --
> Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
> UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
> HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I'd call up glastar and ask if they have a new motor to send you, on my 
inland the upper plastic cover broke and they sent me a new one.  So 
give it a try it might work.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 10:05:24 1996
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From: Neil Sherman <nsherman@hooked.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:45:12 -0700
Message-ID: <199606061705.KAA25521@mom.hooked.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>I must admit, they can be quirky.  We've had problems with the on/off
swtich...sometimes it works, sometimes we've got to filip it on and off 
>a couple of times.  

At the studio where I take my glass classes we keep the grinders plugged
into one of those "power strip" extension cords - the kind of extension cord
that has its own on/off switch.  We turn the grinders on and off at the
extension cord rather than on the grinder itself - cheaper to replace the
cord than the grinder!

Bonnie 

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 10:27:11 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:22:56 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.92256.0>
References: <<199606061705.KAA25521@mom.hooked.net>>
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Neil Sherman wrote:
> 
> >I must admit, they can be quirky.  We've had problems with the on/off
> swtich...sometimes it works, sometimes we've got to filip it on and off
> >a couple of times.
> 
> At the studio where I take my glass classes we keep the grinders plugged
> into one of those "power strip" extension cords - the kind of extension cord
> that has its own on/off switch.  We turn the grinders on and off at the
> extension cord rather than on the grinder itself - cheaper to replace the
> cord than the grinder!
> 
> Bonnie
> 
> ----
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yeah but it's alot cheaper to just replace the switch, why spend $5-$10 
when you can spend a buck or two.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 10:45:16 1996
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From: krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu (Kathe R. McDonald)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Statement
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 10:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <199606061744.KAA20427@peseta.ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Sounds like the motor's burning out.  My blender did the same thing.

Kathe R. McDonald
Office of Curricular Support
"Aint no time to hate." J. Garcia 1995


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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 10:52:06 1996
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From: "Beise Tom" <Beise_Tom@macmail1.cig.mot.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Statement
Date: 6 Jun 1996 12:51:19 -0500
Message-ID: <199606061751.NAA12136@po_box.cig.mot.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Can anyone help me out. I want to buy a grinder for the shop area I am
setting up @ home. What companies or outlets should I be going to ?
_______________________________________________________________________________
From: glass@bungi.com on Thu, Jun 6, 1996 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Statement
To: glass@bungi.com


>I must admit, they can be quirky.  We've had problems with the on/off
swtich...sometimes it works, sometimes we've got to filip it on and off 
>a couple of times.  

At the studio where I take my glass classes we keep the grinders plugged
into one of those "power strip" extension cords - the kind of extension cord
that has its own on/off switch.  We turn the grinders on and off at the
extension cord rather than on the grinder itself - cheaper to replace the
cord than the grinder!

Bonnie 

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 11:13:01 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:05:05 -0400
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Beise Tom wrote:
> 
> Can anyone help me out. I want to buy a grinder for the shop area I am
> setting up @ home. What companies or outlets should I be going to ?
> 

well, i have an inland grinder (i think it's the best). i had one of 
them for about 10 years now and another about 6, and it has'nt given me 
any problems yet.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 11:19:16 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Grinder sources
Date: 06 Jun 96 14:17:06 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.18176.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >Can anyone help me out. I want to buy a grinder for the shop area I am
   >setting up @ home. What companies or outlets should I be going to ?

Tom,

If you'll download IGGA01.TXT from the bungi.com archives, you can do a search
on "grinder" and you'll turn up 12 companies that manufacture or distribute
grinders.  That file is one of about 30 that we uploaded a couple of weeks ago
for just this kind of search.  Good luck!
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 12:11:07 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: grinders
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 12:10:34 -0500
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

This is Howard...I maintain accounts with most MAJOR wholesalers, and can
have a new grinder dropped shipped with payment made to me.
Give me a chance to offer a "competitive price".
Shop and get a quote, and I usually can have a lower price for the SAME unit

From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 12:22:20 1996
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From: cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA
To: "GLASS@BUNGI.COM" <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Seattle glass shops
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.52141.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Does any one know of any good glass supply shops in Seattle or in the Seattle
area, we are going over in July and I would like to visit a couple if 
they are easy to find for a visiter. Donna!!!
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 14:51:49 1996
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From: 1091@nethawk.com (Sue Eiszler)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Statement
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:51:44 -0500
Message-ID: <v01530500addd107ae304@[206.97.200.42]>
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>By the way, has anyone actually repaired a grinder?  Know if there are
>parts available for Glastars?  My grinder is getting cranky. Often, when
>turning it on, we have to give it a little spin by hand to get it
>going.

When mine was on the fritz, I took it to a local motor repair place.  They
fixed it but it didn't stay fixed for very long.  A bit had gotten stuck on
the shaft and when my husband and I tried to carefully take it off without
damaging anything, we apparently drove the shaft into the fan and bent the
fan.  Since the motor repair place didn't have parts, they told me it might
not be a good fix.  Anyway, the next time I would certainly send it back to
the manufacturer instead.  BTW, the whole incident was a good excuse to get
a more powerful and larger grinder.

Sue
1091@nethawk.com





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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 15:46:35 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Seattle glass shops
Date: 06 Jun 96 18:10:10 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.221010.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >Does any one know of any good glass supply shops in Seattle or in the
   >Seattle area

Donna, can you buy at wholesale from the distributors?  If so, we show three of
'em on our list

      1  Northwest Art Glass
      2  Rings & Things
      3  Big M Stained Glass

although only Big M is in Seattle itself.  If you're looking for retail shops,
large and small, our records show 28 of those, which I could email to you, if
you like.
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 17:30:33 1996
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transoms?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:19:30 +0000
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Stacey,

Agree totally with  the thoughtful and helpful coment from Len. In 
the end, it all boils down to "elbow grease" and attention to detail. 
With stained glass there IS no short-cuts. It is a very labour 
intensive Art/Craft and there ain't much we can do about it either. 
(and - often would wish to)...
Elisabeth 'n Toby 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 17:31:08 1996
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Subject: Re: transom
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 01:19:30 +0000
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Wow!! Am I too late for the "party"?! REAL stained glass artissts 
ONLY use LEAD !!!
 A couple of years ago there was a very extensive 
exhibition in London of Picasso and his work. I went for the day with 
an Artist friend. It blew my mind. We DID spend the entire day there. 
What remained in memory most of all, and above everything else, was 
what Picasso did with a bicycle handle bar and a saddle as well as how he 
captured the very essence of a goat. The sculpture of a goat, was 
more a goat than a REAL goat. I never have and never can relate to 
his over-the-top disjointed paintings, where the head is in one place, 
the (one) eye somewhere else and so on. But by his own admission, he was 
spending a lot of time laughing up his sleeve at the expense of his 
adoring admirers . 
A REAL Artist is one who masters ALL aspects of 
his chosen trade/art. I too am a "lead" person, I make the occasional 
lamp in copper foil and the other odd copper foil object (I have a 
passion for pendulum clocks) I have a real old grand-father clock
 (about 200 years old)  in my cottage that I love very much. I have even gorged
 out parts of my ceiling to accommodate the clock - rather than chopping about
 with the clock itself. It's an absolute conversation stopper, when first 
time visitor scan my cottage and their eyes stop at the clock and try 
to make sense of what I have done..... Ignorant (and there is 
ignorance in abundance) potential customers say: OH, so you make 
Tiffany lamps! No I don't and I always gently try to explain how and 
why I don't. In that field I am very much a novice and  treading a 
bit on thin ice. My students - on the other hand - they do and I 
encourage them , if that is what they feel is right for them. As they 
are in some numbers gaining Arts university places, as well as 
post-graduate places on the basis and references I have to offer 
them. I must surely be getrting something right.  
Until I myself acquire the vision of doing in stained glass terms what 
Picasso did in his "metier" with the bicycle handles and  his goats, I am 
not always sure that I can call myself anything else but an "Aspiring 
Artist"... How does that grab you??
Yes, I live and work  "Over Here", yet I originally come from yet 
another set of "Across a Pond" , where Light, Nature and our living 
ambience is all affected by all these influences and moods. Which is 
why I relate to lead more than copper foil. I can't draw or paint to 
save my life, but I can design and my strength is my balance of 
colours and use of lead. I will use the entire range of lead ever thought of if 
appropriate in one panel, paying particular attention to the 
"engineering aspects". I often use 2 mm lead (also known as "string 
lead") which is very difficult to obtain here, because "lead 
afficionados" find it a particularly difficult lead to work with.  I 
will also incorporate a copper-foil detail into a basically lead 
panel; and I will even use non-glass objects as a detail or a symbol. 
In one case I have set a piece of original  masonary of the Berlin Wall into a 
commemorative panel, to tremendeously great effect. A side issue is, 
that I visited Berlin in the year when the Wall  was actually 
built....
Stained Glass, is like writing a Shakespearian sonnet. It's rigid, it 
has got rules, it has got restrictions, and to be a good sonnet, it 
must bloody well scan in all the right places.... To become Master of the Art, 
you spend your life making fluidity out of something that is rigid, 
you strive to create harmony, colours and light refractions, a 
design, a pattern that people can live with and feel comforted by - 
despite bloody fingers and dried hands and a lonely life. You don't 
need to scratch very far or deep to appreciate the importance of 
light, colours,shape and harmony. In the history of the Western 
World, the greatest Patron of stained glass - after all - was the 
Roman Catholic Church. They were very good at playing on the human 
needs and the human aspirings.  Stained Glass was one of THEIR 
mechanisms of teaching to the people that couldn't read, indoctrinating and fulfilling 
some of these needs of Mankind.  I am turning left, right and centre, I STILL get 
the feed-back from "Joe in the street" that stained glass is about 
churches and religion.... 
This IS a bit of an emotional response to the latest "interchanges", 
it is also a bit of History thrown in. I be delighted to have you 
tear me to pieces. However, I did start out in life as a History 
Graduate.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 17:59:40 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0uRptQ-00019ga; Thu, 6 Jun 96 17:59 PDT
X-Path: monmouth.com!clambert
From: C Lambert <clambert@monmouth.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: transom
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:56:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.165616.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB53EA.A1BB9B20
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wow... Why is it all the truly fascinating people I have met on this =
computer are so darn far away... an aspiring artist?  I guess that sums =
me up as well.  I work in many mediums mainly for my own pleasure.  The =
only thing I know for sure is that working with glass is always an =
education.  Eventually I guess I too will learn other techniques I think =
maybe that is part of the joy of life... As for incorporating other =
things into my glass works.  Sliced Nautilus shells are what I am =
putting in a panel right now.  I love it already and am combing the =
beach shops for other "bits"  to fight with as my mother says. Have a =
great day I am going to go play with my new light table

----------
From: 	Toby[SMTP:toby@northlights.co.uk]
Sent: 	Thursday, June 06, 1996 9:19 PM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	Re: transom

Wow!! Am I too late for the "party"?! REAL stained glass artissts=20
ONLY use LEAD !!!
 A couple of years ago there was a very extensive=20
exhibition in London of Picasso and his work. I went for the day with=20
an Artist friend. It blew my mind. We DID spend the entire day there.=20
What remained in memory most of all, and above everything else, was=20
what Picasso did with a bicycle handle bar and a saddle as well as how =
he=20
captured the very essence of a goat. The sculpture of a goat, was=20
more a goat than a REAL goat. I never have and never can relate to=20
his over-the-top disjointed paintings, where the head is in one place,=20
the (one) eye somewhere else and so on. But by his own admission, he was =

spending a lot of time laughing up his sleeve at the expense of his=20
adoring admirers .=20
A REAL Artist is one who masters ALL aspects of=20
his chosen trade/art. I too am a "lead" person, I make the occasional=20
lamp in copper foil and the other odd copper foil object (I have a=20
passion for pendulum clocks) I have a real old grand-father clock
 (about 200 years old)  in my cottage that I love very much. I have even =
gorged
 out parts of my ceiling to accommodate the clock - rather than chopping =
about
 with the clock itself. It's an absolute conversation stopper, when =
first=20
time visitor scan my cottage and their eyes stop at the clock and try=20
to make sense of what I have done..... Ignorant (and there is=20
ignorance in abundance) potential customers say: OH, so you make=20
Tiffany lamps! No I don't and I always gently try to explain how and=20
why I don't. In that field I am very much a novice and  treading a=20
bit on thin ice. My students - on the other hand - they do and I=20
encourage them , if that is what they feel is right for them. As they=20
are in some numbers gaining Arts university places, as well as=20
post-graduate places on the basis and references I have to offer=20
them. I must surely be getrting something right. =20
Until I myself acquire the vision of doing in stained glass terms what=20
Picasso did in his "metier" with the bicycle handles and  his goats, I =
am=20
not always sure that I can call myself anything else but an "Aspiring=20
Artist"... How does that grab you??
Yes, I live and work  "Over Here", yet I originally come from yet=20
another set of "Across a Pond" , where Light, Nature and our living=20
ambience is all affected by all these influences and moods. Which is=20
why I relate to lead more than copper foil. I can't draw or paint to=20
save my life, but I can design and my strength is my balance of=20
colours and use of lead. I will use the entire range of lead ever =
thought of if=20
appropriate in one panel, paying particular attention to the=20
"engineering aspects". I often use 2 mm lead (also known as "string=20
lead") which is very difficult to obtain here, because "lead=20
afficionados" find it a particularly difficult lead to work with.  I=20
will also incorporate a copper-foil detail into a basically lead=20
panel; and I will even use non-glass objects as a detail or a symbol.=20
In one case I have set a piece of original  masonary of the Berlin Wall =
into a=20
commemorative panel, to tremendeously great effect. A side issue is,=20
that I visited Berlin in the year when the Wall  was actually=20
built....
Stained Glass, is like writing a Shakespearian sonnet. It's rigid, it=20
has got rules, it has got restrictions, and to be a good sonnet, it=20
must bloody well scan in all the right places.... To become Master of =
the Art,=20
you spend your life making fluidity out of something that is rigid,=20
you strive to create harmony, colours and light refractions, a=20
design, a pattern that people can live with and feel comforted by -=20
despite bloody fingers and dried hands and a lonely life. You don't=20
need to scratch very far or deep to appreciate the importance of=20
light, colours,shape and harmony. In the history of the Western=20
World, the greatest Patron of stained glass - after all - was the=20
Roman Catholic Church. They were very good at playing on the human=20
needs and the human aspirings.  Stained Glass was one of THEIR=20
mechanisms of teaching to the people that couldn't read, indoctrinating =
and fulfilling=20
some of these needs of Mankind.  I am turning left, right and centre, I =
STILL get=20
the feed-back from "Joe in the street" that stained glass is about=20
churches and religion....=20
This IS a bit of an emotional response to the latest "interchanges",=20
it is also a bit of History thrown in. I be delighted to have you=20
tear me to pieces. However, I did start out in life as a History=20
Graduate.
Elisabeth 'n Toby
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm=20
----
----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 18:20:39 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0uRqDm-00018Qa; Thu, 6 Jun 96 18:20 PDT
X-Path: odc.net!arowhead
From: Robert Burmister <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 02:54:37 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.195437.0>
References: <<199606061751.NAA12136@po_box.cig.mot.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Digital Odyssey Internet Services
Precedence: bulk

Beise Tom wrote:
> 
> Can anyone help me out. I want to buy a grinder for the shop area I am
> setting up @ home. What companies or outlets should I be going to ?
> ______________________________________________________________________________


Tom,

check out our web page at http://www.odc.net/arrowhead.  We are a new mail order company 
in California. Be sure to click on the discount page for discount info.

Bob Burmester
arrowhead@odc.net
>
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 19:58:09 1996
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0uRrk1-0000wHa; Thu, 6 Jun 96 19:57 PDT
X-Path: aol.com!BarbaraBGS
From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement revisted
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 22:57:31 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun6.185731.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I thought glass artists score more -  :-)  Barbara
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:06:03 1996
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Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0uRrrm-0000yMa; Thu, 6 Jun 96 20:05 PDT
X-Path: ix.netcom.com!izzy3
From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transom
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:05:31 -0700
Message-ID: <199606070305.UAA17657@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>Stacey, remember one thing.... REAL STAINED GLASS ARTISTS USE LEAD
>
>OH! OH! that was pretty political! I bet I've opened up a can of worms 
for sure!
>
>Oh well, somebody needs to build a fire under this list anyway.
>
>
>Len
>
>----
>

In any case foil has it's place. In a larger window I think that came 
is a better solution. Not using it because you have not learned how is 
a bad excuse. If you are not ready technicaly to execute a project 
better to put it off until you have the tools. There are many reasons 
that lead work is more suited to architectural projects. My advise is 
to not shy away from learning lead work as it will trully expand your 
horizens.
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:07:31 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:07:07 -0700
Message-ID: <199606070307.UAA05615@dfw-ix4.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>I always thought that "Stained Glass Artists Were Always A Cut Above 
the Rest".
>

Is that what you have on your lisence plate or your buisness card?
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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:10:18 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transom
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:09:55 -0700
Message-ID: <199606070309.UAA20046@dfw-ix6.ix.netcom.com>
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You wrote: 
>
>
>   >REAL STAINED GLASS ARTISTS USE LEAD
>   >OH! OH! that was pretty political! I bet I've opened up a can of 
worms
>   >for sure!
>
>Hmm.  Wonder if ol' Looie Tiffany's spinning in his grave? <g>
>
>               
I doubt it L.T. had no fear of lead. He also had no fear of mixing 
techniques. What one needs to know is the limitaions of the processes 
and how to overcome those limitations. (grasshopper)

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:12:50 1996
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From: "Lisa Anne Rosochacki" <rosochac@pilot.msu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: transoms?
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 23:12:24 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606070312.XAA27622@pilot10.cl.msu.edu>
References: <<1996Jun5.8339.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

>
> For the transom, there is a few things that you can do:
>
> 1. You can put reinforcing tape in between the joints, on flexible
> looking joints.

If you run your reinforcement thru the entire vertical length of the panel it
will make it stronger. (By vertical length I mean from top to bottom in a
continuous manner, bending it inbetween the pieces)


>
> 2. You can bend rebar to match the foil lines, very difficult.
>
> 3. You can divide the transom into quarters, like a sun, making smaller
> windows.
>
> 4. You may also want to use came around the borders, border came is
> usually used, it is usually zinc, however since there is a curve (I'm
> assuming) you should use lead, maybe even lead with a brass heart
> (stronger).

Instead of using lead i would highly suggest using Zinc Channel it is much much
stronger than the lead would be, and to bend it to the curve you can use a Came
Bender, it is a series of rollers that allow you to bend the came without it
crimping up on you.  I'm sure that your supplier would be able to show you one
or may even have one that you could use to make your curves.


>
> 5. Or you could leave it flexible, tough you should at least bead one
> side if not both (if you don't already). The panel can stay flexible,
> until it goes into the opening. I made a 3'x3' panel once and it flopped
> around like paper, but once I got that oak border around it, it's pretty
> darn strong.
>

Even using a wood frame you might want to use a Zinc Channel around the
outside, this will help you tie all of your solder lines together and it makes
the panel stronger as well.  (It will keep it from rattling around in the frame
work too.)



Lisa

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:18:12 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE:transom
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:17:34 -0700
Message-ID: <199606070317.UAA04721@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>

>
>Stacey, most people learn beginning stained glass using copper foil 
it's
>faster,cleaner,less phsically demanding and more compact. Advanced 
crafters
>can do just about any thing using that process. There are some 
limitations
>to both methods and it's your awareness of those mechanical 
limitations that
>come into play when cartooning a design.Probably the biggest 
difference
>between the two is ability to dramatically vary the size of the lead 
lines
>I've used lead as much as 3/4" across the face in some large windows 
it's
>this versatility along with a certain crispness of line thatis 
difficult to
>achieve with foil that makes lead my preference.  Should you learn 
how? If
>you have the time the inclination and a good teacher you bet!
>
>Len
>

Structuraly there is also a big difference between lead and foil. The 
size restrictions in a strictly foil window are very difficult to 
overcome, and may not be worth the effort. The big difference in my 
mind is the fact that in a leaded panel each piece of glass floats 
independent of the rest of the panel thus giving considerably more 
flexibility in the finished product. Mixing foiled sections in with 
leaded work is an interesting way to get the best of both worlds.

MS

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From owner-glass Thu Jun  6 20:19:56 1996
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From: izzy3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Smoucha )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: semantics
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 20:19:28 -0700
Message-ID: <199606070319.UAA04787@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
>
>To the best of my limited knowledge, we as a group in general are 
REALLY
>working with colored glass. The term "stained glass" refers to the 
painting
>on glass, usually associated with church windows. When you see an ad 
for
>stained glass in the museum type catalogs, they are right in terming 
it
>stained glass. The glass that we use is COLORED in the manufacturing, 
rather
>than being stained with paint.
>Back to my mellow self, not much desire (can be changed in a flash, 
however)
>to upset the "list-eners".
>Enjoy....H
>
>--


Personaly I like the term "Art Glass" as it tends to cover more of the 
bases.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 08:50:24 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Teaching Stained Glass
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:47:00 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.1470.0>
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What skills should be included in the first basic stained glass class
students take?  I am getting ready to start a class and would like input
from others as to what would be most helpful.  Do you start students in
lead came classes or in copper foil classes first?  Any info or input will
be appreciated.

Peggy Johnsen
edupjohn@slonet.org

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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 09:20:07 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:18:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.81819.0>
References: <<1996Jun7.1470.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

Depending on how long the class is, I don't think that skills should be addressed at all, except possibly for a teaser for the next class.  
The first skill I would teach would be holding a cutter and scoring and breaking glass.

The first obvious things that should be covered in the first class are the materials that will be used, the types of glass, and a brief 
history of stained glass [Tiffany et. al.].  But most importantly, the dangers of using certain materials should be emphasized.  Lead is 
toxic. Acid patina and flux can burn.  Glass is sharp (I've got a seven-stitch scar in my foot to prove it!).  Liquid solder is damn hot! (No 
burns for me, but my wife has a few pairs of pants with tiny burn holes in them. <g>).  Reinforce the importance of using gloves, shields 
and/or goggles, where appropriate.

I've always said that a safe artist is a happy artist.

Matt McDonnell
-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 09:23:59 1996
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From: "Rund, Sharen" <rund#m#_sharen@mmac.is.lmsc.lockheed.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject:  
Date: 7 Jun 1996 09:08:05 U
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.185.0>
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subscribe glass
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 09:59:00 1996
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From: MPGP79B@prodigy.com (PEGGY M PALM)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Fwd: grinders
Date: Fri,  7 Jun 1996 12:53:21, -0500
Message-ID: <199606071653.MAA15732@mime2.prodigy.com>
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I think this was meant for the list  :-)   Peggy


------- FORWARD, Original message follows -------

> Date: Thursday, 06-Jun-96 03:41 PM
> 
> From: Howard Rubin             \ Internet:    (weaver51@teleport.com)
> To:   P M Palm                 \ PRODIGY:     (MPGP79B)
> 
> Subject: grinders
> 
> This is Howard...I maintain accounts with most MAJOR wholesalers, and
can
> have a new grinder dropped shipped with payment made to me.
> Give me a chance to offer a "competitive price".
> Shop and get a quote, and I usually can have a lower price for the
SAME
> unit
> 
> 
> 

------- FORWARD, End of original message -------


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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 10:18:11 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:18:01 -0500
Message-ID: <199606071717.KAA12945@desiree.teleport.com>
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Hi This is Howard....It is difficult without knowing your skills and
proclivity to give you an answer. What I can do is give you MY views.
I have been supplying and teaching for the past 15+ years.
My classes are MIXED with beginners, some experienced and my on-going lamp
makers.
I teach copper foil, and after the FIRST session which includes a run
through of the cutting principal, cutting window glass, grinding and foiling
, and a simple flow of solder on the assembled pieces, a small touch of math
, and the "poser" how do 8 flat panels become a lamp and the size we/I want
it to be.
To minimize the flow of people to my shop, I bring a sample box of Spectrum
for them to pick through, explain a bit about light transmission and density
of glass. The FIRST project is a small 8 panel lamp. I explain why we will
do a 6" high shade with compatible top and lower diameters to look good on a
mini-base.
The second week I bring their choice of glass cut to 6x24 with a few clear
glass strips of the same size to "practice" jig cutting.
We all do the same SIZE shade and I allow the students to have their choice
of all in one plane or two or more planes.
Usually all students have cut the panels, and some have started on the shape
of the panel, and some even to the grinder as well.
Assuming you know enough technique, I will leave out the rest. By the 4th
week they have soldered (struggled) and have begun to BUY stuff from me.
Next shade is bigger and has no waste (the pressure is on). After seeing
their skills and work ethic, I will let them browse the Odyssey and Worden
catalogues, with suggestions as to ease or methods to build their dream
shade.
The class also touches on manufacture of glass and properties and light
through the glass.
AT NO TIME do I approve or let them do "suncatchers" on my time. After the
lamp trauma, they may elect to do a window, and I usually show them why some
patterns are better than others.
After working through the Spectrum, they get exposed to the hand-made
glasses, and I usually bring in a shade I have done and explain what they
are seeing.
Once they have mastered the skills required to do a shade, windows are
easier and need not a lot of input from me.
I strive to have my students become independent of me and to work on their
own. Some require the discipline of class, others look at it as a "social or
evening out". I will take middle school children if they are behaved and
will follow directions...at NO time is this a paid babysitting class, and I
ask the adults how they feel about "kids" in the class.
I give the beginners the option of backing out after the first night without
any tuition being collected. I set a minimum of 10 for class, so as to
provide enough for me to teach and sell to them.
More questions...ask....enjoy....H

--
new construction 5-11-96... http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/hrubin.htm
                            http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 10:31:38 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 13:30:56 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.93056.0>
References: <<1996Jun7.1470.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
> 
> What skills should be included in the first basic stained glass class
> students take?  I am getting ready to start a class and would like input
> from others as to what would be most helpful.  Do you start students in
> lead came classes or in copper foil classes first?  Any info or input will
> be appreciated.
> 
> Peggy Johnsen
> edupjohn@slonet.org
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I'd go over basic skills, safety how to score and break glass, 
soldering, etc. as for foil or lead, i guess it depends on what you feel 
more comfortable with. and of course it's important that they complete 
some kind of project to take home, for the beginners i would probably 
pick out a project, a box, or a sun catcher, or something. and then let 
them pick there own project. but just be sure to expect one person in 
the class that may be more advanced in stained glass than you, usually 
it would be me.  I've been to quite a few classes where the teacher has 
only been doing stained glass for 3-4 years, compared to my 14 years of 
glass... well anyway just beware of them and let them do there own 
thing.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 11:09:24 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:08:59 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.10859.0>
References: <<199606071717.KAA12945@desiree.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

Howard,

I've never understood why you wouldn't let a beginner do a suncatcher.  
Particularly if he/she is only interested in a hobby.  I don't like 
making them, because they don't suit my taste, but some people love 
them.  
Also, there is a huge market for them.  I've seen houses where every 
pane of glass has a suncatcher.  Despite what I LIKE to do, I wouldn't 
mind decorating for that person.  
I also remember when I was a beginner.  I found suncatchers to be much 
less intimidating.  If I messed it up, I could finish it quickly and get 
on to another, bigger project, like a window or lamp.

Just my two cents.

Matt
-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 12:29:04 1996
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From: MPGP79B@prodigy.com (PEGGY M PALM)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Fri,  7 Jun 1996 15:22:33, -0500
Message-ID: <199606071922.PAA21490@mime2.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just butting right in here, even though you addressed Howard :-)

You're right about some people loving suncatchers.  I had the oppposite
problem, though.  I was WILD to get started on a lamp, and my first
instructor insisted on a panel (slightly more than a suncatcher, but
not by much!) before he would even *consider* doing something more. 
Now, I'm no threat to Louis Tiffany, but I really was ready to do more
than I was "allowed" to do, and it was somewhat frustrating.

My point?  Perhaps it makes sense to point out the possible pitfalls to
the inexperienced, and then let people learn on the type of project
they really *want* to make.  One of the basic tenets of adult ed. is
that adult learners are self-motivated.  Give them choices and guidance
when needed, and they will teach themselves.  When they make howling
mistakes, they will learn from that, too.  [Been there, done that,
don't need another one of *those* Tshirts....!  ;-) ]

My 2¢, FWIW!            Peggy


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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 13:33:04 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: seeking advice
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 15:29:32 -0500
Message-ID: <199606072029.PAA08119@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I certainly enjoyed the bantering about (and the puns)over the lead/ foil
thing. Great fun!


 I would like to get some feedback on the proliferation of brass covered
came commercial windows that come factory installed in entry systems etc.
Has anyone been to a shop where they are made? or are they all produced by
our third world brothers and sisters? I've seen full lite entry doors with
decent bevel clusters and designs going for as little as 350 bucks, scary.
They have been well marketed and people are tuned into their "look". I've
done a few myself over the last couple of years mostly straight line
geometrics which was okay  I recently completed a round top transom 6 feet
at the base over the top of a dual sidelite entry which included the afor
mentioned product. It was fairly tedious to construct, tight radius curves
and large central bevel cluster. I combined jig and hand bending, but found
that if you miss the curve a little the window grows big time on the layout
and you can't really hammer it home.So what I ended up doing was to precut
came section as exact as possible force it around the glass under tension,
nail it in and solder as you go. This along with the necessary pre-bending
helped the project move along. My biggest concern was that the thing was so
loaded up under tension that when it was time to flip it over the whole
panel was going to coil up like a big spring... which it didn't.Frankly, it
produced a really nice stiff panel that did not require cementing or bracing.

 I can't really say that I like the look though , featuring the matrix of
the window so that it matches the brass detail on some light fixture in the
hallway, I don't really buy it. I've tried to discourage it with my clients
but I'm getting more requests all the time and I'd rather not turn down the
work.

Has this been an issue with other shops out there and how have you delt with
it, has it affected your business?have you made any of these type of
windows? Any ideas on how stear clients away from it? 


    Thanks

    Len 

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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 13:47:06 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:46:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.124638.0>
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Organization: T & M Satined Glass
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Well said
-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 14:32:37 1996
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From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: cut/foil/tack?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:40:01 -0600
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960607204001.006839d0@mail.netzone.com>
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Hello all, Since we haven't had rain in over 80 days and our low temps are
now in the 80's (highs of 110 degrees, pant pant )..I have moved my stained
glass workshop into the spare bedroom.  Ahhh, nice air conditioned
comfort..Working on an 18" octagonal hummingbird hanging.  I am foiling this
piece and since I usually work w/ came I need my memory jogged on how to
foil.  I am cutting a piece (one at at time) and then grinding it and then
foiling it.  Should I tack solder these pieces as I go?? My retailer says to
cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces and then foil.  I am not
comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack solder as I go will I have any
problems a month from now when I get ready to officially solder the entire
piece??  Thanks all.. beating the heat here in Phoenix.. Lorley

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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 16:17:34 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cut/foil/tack?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 19:16:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.151649.0>
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Lorley L. Oneyear wrote:
> 
> Hello all, Since we haven't had rain in over 80 days and our low temps are
> now in the 80's (highs of 110 degrees, pant pant )..I have moved my stained
> glass workshop into the spare bedroom.  Ahhh, nice air conditioned
> comfort..Working on an 18" octagonal hummingbird hanging.  I am foiling this
> piece and since I usually work w/ came I need my memory jogged on how to
> foil.  I am cutting a piece (one at at time) and then grinding it and then
> foiling it.  Should I tack solder these pieces as I go?? My retailer says to
> cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces and then foil.  I am not
> comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack solder as I go will I have any
> problems a month from now when I get ready to officially solder the entire
> piece??  Thanks all.. beating the heat here in Phoenix.. Lorley
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


Well, my method is to cut grind and foil as I go, I solder all at once 
if I can help it, except in one case where I had to tack as I go which 
(I think) burned out my iron.  Also if you tack as you go it may be more 
difficult to solder over due to oxidation.  The method I use also me 
re-cut a piece if it's necessary. 

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 22:06:12 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Subscribe
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 00:32:04 -0400
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I would like to subscribe to the news group concerning stained glass
crafts. I am totally new at this, so any help would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks,
                                   Karl

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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 22:09:00 1996
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From: Robert Burmister <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: seeking advice
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:20:52 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.142052.0>
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len alcamo wrote:
> 
> I certainly enjoyed the bantering about (and the puns)over the lead/ foil
> thing. Great fun!
> 
>  I would like to get some feedback on the proliferation of brass covered
> came commercial windows that come factory installed in entry systems etc.
> Has anyone been to a shop where they are made? or are they all produced by
> our third world brothers and sisters? I've seen full lite entry doors with
> decent bevel clusters and designs going for as little as 350 bucks, scary.
> They have been well marketed and people are tuned into their "look". I've
> done a few myself over the last couple of years mostly straight line
> geometrics which was okay  I recently completed a round top transom 6 feet
> at the base over the top of a dual sidelite entry which included the afor
> mentioned product. It was fairly tedious to construct, tight radius curves
> and large central bevel cluster. I combined jig and hand bending, but found
> that if you miss the curve a little the window grows big time on the layout
> and you can't really hammer it home.So what I ended up doing was to precut
> came section as exact as possible force it around the glass under tension,
> nail it in and solder as you go. This along with the necessary pre-bending
> helped the project move along. My biggest concern was that the thing was so
> loaded up under tension that when it was time to flip it over the whole
> panel was going to coil up like a big spring... which it didn't.Frankly, it
> produced a really nice stiff panel that did not require cementing or bracing.
> 
>  I can't really say that I like the look though , featuring the matrix of
> the window so that it matches the brass detail on some light fixture in the
> hallway, I don't really buy it. I've tried to discourage it with my clients
> but I'm getting more requests all the time and I'd rather not turn down the
> work.
> 
> Has this been an issue with other shops out there and how have you delt with
> it, has it affected your business?have you made any of these type of
> windows? Any ideas on how stear clients away from it?
> 
>     Thanks
> 
>     Len
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassLen,  Have you tried brass crowned lead.  It bends nearly as easily as 
lead but has real brass crown.

Bob
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 22:14:58 1996
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From: Robert Burmister <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cut/foil/tack?
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:28:13 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun7.142813.0>
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Lorley L. Oneyear wrote:
> 
> Hello all, Since we haven't had rain in over 80 days and our low temps are
> now in the 80's (highs of 110 degrees, pant pant )..I have moved my stained
> glass workshop into the spare bedroom.  Ahhh, nice air conditioned
> comfort..Working on an 18" octagonal hummingbird hanging.  I am foiling this
> piece and since I usually work w/ came I need my memory jogged on how to
> foil.  I am cutting a piece (one at at time) and then grinding it and then
> foiling it.  Should I tack solder these pieces as I go?? My retailer says to
> cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces and then foil.  I am not
> comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack solder as I go will I have any
> problems a month from now when I get ready to officially solder the entire
> piece??  Thanks all.. beating the heat here in Phoenix.. Lorley
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassLorley,

I agree with your retailer that you should cut and grind all pieces 
first.  Next, I like to lay out the pieces to see how they fit as a 
unit.  Be sure to leave a little extra room for the foil.  Once you have 
your project laid out and it all fits, hold it in place with push pins. 
 Next, foil each piece one at a time and replace it in the project as 
you go.  you may find things getting tighter as you add foiled pieces.  
If so, you may have to grind some of the remaining pieces in order to 
make it all fit.  This is the way we do it in our studio and it works 
fine.  Hope this helps.

Bob
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From owner-glass Fri Jun  7 23:22:42 1996
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From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Seattle glass shops
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:21:59 -0700
Message-ID: <199606080621.XAA06857@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>
>
>   >Does any one know of any good glass supply shops in Seattle or in 
the
>   >Seattle area
>
>Donna, can you buy at wholesale from the distributors?  If so, we show 
three of
>'em on our list
>
>      1  Northwest Art Glass
>      2  Rings & Things
>      3  Big M Stained Glass
>
>although only Big M is in Seattle itself.  If you're looking for 
retail shops,
>large and small, our records show 28 of those, which I could email to 
you, if
>you like.
>                __________________________________________
>                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                __________________________________________
>
>----
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>
Albert,
Don't forget Spectrum Glass in Woodinville.  A short jot from Seattle, 
it is close to Redmond (Home of Northwest Art Glass).
Teresa
Color It Glass!
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From owner-glass Sat Jun  8 09:09:40 1996
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From: kshawkey@execpc.com (Curt & Karen Shawkey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cut/foil/tack?
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 08:53:35 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <199606081353.IAA10894@mail.execpc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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>Hello all, Since we haven't had rain in over 80 days and our low temps are
>now in the 80's (highs of 110 degrees, pant pant ).

Hi: Lorley L. Oneyear;  Where are you from? Texas?  Here in Wisconsin it has
been raining for a week or so with temperatures in the 50's & 60's.  Below
normal.  Can't mow the lawn its so wet.  When we finally do get some decent
weather it is going to be an awful job.  As a result I have more time to
spend in the basement with my hobby.  Looks like you are getting some good
advice.  I have nothing new to add.  

I have been at this for about 5 years.  I've only done copper foil.  I
should take a class sometime on lead.  Currently I have been working on a
tiffany style lampshade.  Not a difficult one, but its a nice start.

Good luck 

Karen

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From owner-glass Sat Jun  8 09:10:15 1996
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From: ssuter@intrastar.net (Shirley Suter)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: seeking advise
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 09:28:40 -0500
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Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service - (409) 687-9067
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> len alcamo wrote:
> > 
> > I certainly enjoyed the bantering about (and the puns)over the lead/ foil
> > thing. Great fun!
> > 
> >  I would like to get some feedback on the proliferation of brass covered
> > came commercial windows that come factory installed in entry systems etc.
> > Has anyone been to a shop where they are made? or are they all produced by
> > our third world brothers and sisters? I've seen full lite entry doors with
> > decent bevel clusters and designs going for as little as 350 bucks, scary.

HI Len,

Why, yes indeed, I have been to a shop where they are made.  Houston 
Stained Glass Supply (you know..."the World's Largest Stained Glass 
Wholesaler"?) manufacturers doors, sidelights, and transoms right in back 
of their stained glass warehouse.  I could be mistaken, but I THINK they 
even manufacturer their own bevels (very scary)!!  They will happily sell 
to their wholesale customers, complete entries, individual components, 
blank doors (no glass, just a hole for glass) and even bevel clusters 
(WOW)!
They will happily send to you a beautiful color brochure of their 
products.  Give them a call at 1-800-766-2196.
I agree with you that the "hassle factor" in producing this work is not 
worth it (unless you are REALLY HUNGRY).  Working with brass came is just 
not my cup of tea (or mug of beer here in East Texas). Thus far, I've 
been pretty successful in convincing my customers to look toward being 
individual, and not necessarily purchase the same door that his neighbor 
may purchase tomorrow.  Then I dangle some cobalt blue hammered and some 
red granite in front of them and mention the privacy factor, and they 
seem to come around to my way of thinking.
GOOD LUCK!!!!!
Shirley Suter
Grapeland, Tx.

My Grandmother's advise (not meant to be taken personally, just a witty 
quote from a colorful woman):  "When you come upon a fork in the road, 
fear not.  Take it!  You never know when you will come upon a piece of 
pie."
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From owner-glass Sat Jun  8 11:38:17 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Chandelier Fixtures
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:34:43 -0400
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Does anyone know where I might obtain a catalog containing chandelier
fixtures? I have built one so far, and I had to buy the fixtures locally
at what I thought was an inflated price.
      I already have several catalogs from stained glass suppliers (such
as Glass Crafters, Delphi, etc.), but allthey have are single globe type
hardware. What I am looking for is three or four lamp fixtures for hanging
shades. Thanks in advance!
 Karl

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From owner-glass Sat Jun  8 14:40:31 1996
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From: GlasCrafts@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Chandelier Fixtures
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:40:12 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun8.134012.0>
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Karl, since you mentioned our catalog, we wanted to point out that we do sell
components for multiple bulb lighting of shades.  The parts are sold
separately and need to be assembled and wired.  Look on page 43 and you will
see a solid brass 3-light cluster, 45 degree nozzles to position the sockets,
and pull chain sockets.  You will also need to "drop" the cluster from your
crossbar with a 4-6" threaded rod.  We also stock a 2-light "S" cluster for
hanging shades. Give us a call and we'll  get you set up.
Jim
Glass Crafters Stained Glass
1-800-422-4552
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From owner-glass Sun Jun  9 11:14:27 1996
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From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: [forward] cut/foil/tack?
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:45:30 -0400 (EDT)
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> From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>





> My retailer says to
> cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces and then foil.  I am not
> comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack solder as I go will I have any
> problems a month from now when I get ready to officially solder the entire
> piece??


Hi Lorley!

Yeah, what your retailer says is pretty standard procedure. If you are
wanting to tack solder just do you can be sure your pieces are fitting
properly, you might try double backed tape.

The kind that is designed for mounting posters without marking walls holds
your finshed pieces still while you are touching up the next. Yet, it
is easy to move the pieces when you need to and doesn't rip the pattern.

Try it and see if you feel a bit more comfortable.

Mary


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From owner-glass Sun Jun  9 14:41:26 1996
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From: charles@fast.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement-GRINDERS
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 17:48 EDT
Message-ID: <m0uSsLg-0003EwC@fast.net>
References: <<1996Jun6.195437.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

We sell Inland Wizling grinders for about $49.00. A minium order of $100 is 
required (not including grinder)for that price.

We sell first quality 60/40 solder as low as $3.50 (with $100 order).

Many other prices below most wholesalers.

Or visit our 40,000 square foot store/wharehouse

WARNER-CRIVELLARO
1855 Weaversville Road
Allentown  PA  18103
800-523-4242	FAX 610-264-1010
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From owner-glass Sun Jun  9 16:46:56 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: transoms?
Date: 09 Jun 96 19:42:39 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun9.234239.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >If you run your reinforcement thru the entire vertical length of the
   >panel it will make it stronger. (By vertical length I mean from top to
   >bottom in a continuous manner, bending it inbetween the pieces)

Well said.  But it's also important that the reinforcement itself go into the
frame or the surround, otherwise, the glass and so on are supporting the
reinforcement, rather than the other way 'round.
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Sun Jun  9 16:46:56 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: semantics
Date: 09 Jun 96 19:42:42 EDT
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   >Personaly I like the term "Art Glass" as it tends to cover more of the
   >bases.

What's funny is that "art glass" was a perjorative 100 years ago, a sneering
name applied to the kind of stuff that was then being sold by Sears Roebuck. But
times change and so does the language, obviously. <g>

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Jun  9 21:37:23 1996
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From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 21:35:25 -0500
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-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

This is Howard...If my students spent 10 years doing only suncatchers (s/c)
and tried a shade, do you think they would have the skill needed?
If my students spent 10 years at shade making, do you think they could do a
s/c?
Most attitudes on s/c is it is only that and loose interest quickly in DOING
a good job.
Ask most people who are beginners what their goal is, and lamps usually are
the choice.
Also, as they get better, or under my auspices and tutelage, they QUICKLY
compare their work to the CRAP that is imported and find they are BETTER,
could they do that with s/c? What an ego boost!
Lastly, we all have our ways, and mine is shades.
--
new construction 5-11-96... http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/hrubin.htm
                            http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 07:20:29 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:16:50 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun10.61650.0>
References: <<199606100436.VAA15041@desiree.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Elaine & Howard Rubin wrote:
> 
> -- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
> 
> This is Howard...If my students spent 10 years doing only suncatchers (s/c)
> and tried a shade, do you think they would have the skill needed?
> If my students spent 10 years at shade making, do you think they could do a
> s/c?
> Most attitudes on s/c is it is only that and loose interest quickly in DOING
> a good job.
> Ask most people who are beginners what their goal is, and lamps usually are
> the choice.
> Also, as they get better, or under my auspices and tutelage, they QUICKLY
> compare their work to the CRAP that is imported and find they are BETTER,
> could they do that with s/c? What an ego boost!
> Lastly, we all have our ways, and mine is shades.
> --
> new construction 5-11-96... http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/hrubin.htm
>                             http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
> Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
> E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


How ever if they did lamps for 10 years they wouldn't have any room for 
sun catchers.. ;)  though you'd have to define sun catcher, some see it 
as a 5 piece flower, others see it as ant size pieces of glass with over 
100 pieces. I'd personally start with a sun catcher and work my way up, 
but this is all dependent on how old the people are that your teaching. 
i remember when a teacher tried to teach how to make a simple panel lamp 
with crown, to kids that weren't all that experienced, but he was 
convinced that they could do it. needless to say they came out really 
bad, the crowns spiraled, every piece was a different shape, and angle. 
and basically wasted a lot of glass.

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 07:35:17 1996
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	id m0uT82l-0000Jva; Mon, 10 Jun 96 07:34 PDT
X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: BACORA CEMENT???
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:36:53 -0400
Message-ID: <9606101436.AA01545@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Wondering in anyone out there has heard of this Bacora cement...to be used
in place of Inland??? Had a call from a guy says he does restorations on
large public spaces and he was up in Princeton and they are using this
Bacora (spelling may be wrong ) cement.  Anyone out there here of this and
what is the word?

Thanks.
pj friend

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 07:35:20 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Rods
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:37:02 -0400
Message-ID: <9606101437.AA01558@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I had a call last week from someone looking for glass rods.  They are
looking for true colors...as moretti rod red, is really a red orange until
heated.  Because they intend to use these rods without heating them they
need true colors.  Anyone out there know of someone who does this type of
work?  Also they need holes drilled in one end.

Thanks all.
pj friend

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 08:30:03 1996
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	id m0uT7nC-0000zVa; Mon, 10 Jun 96 07:18 PDT
X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Teaching Stained Glass - w or w/o suncatchers?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:16:50 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun10.61650.0>
References: <<199606100436.VAA15041@desiree.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Elaine & Howard Rubin wrote:
> 
> -- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --
> 
> This is Howard...If my students spent 10 years doing only suncatchers (s/c)
> and tried a shade, do you think they would have the skill needed?
> If my students spent 10 years at shade making, do you think they could do a
> s/c?
> Most attitudes on s/c is it is only that and loose interest quickly in DOING
> a good job.
> Ask most people who are beginners what their goal is, and lamps usually are
> the choice.
> Also, as they get better, or under my auspices and tutelage, they QUICKLY
> compare their work to the CRAP that is imported and find they are BETTER,
> could they do that with s/c? What an ego boost!
> Lastly, we all have our ways, and mine is shades.
> --
> new construction 5-11-96... http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/hrubin.htm
>                             http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
> Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
> E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


How ever if they did lamps for 10 years they wouldn't have any room for 
sun catchers.. ;)  though you'd have to define sun catcher, some see it 
as a 5 piece flower, others see it as ant size pieces of glass with over 
100 pieces. I'd personally start with a sun catcher and work my way up, 
but this is all dependent on how old the people are that your teaching. 
i remember when a teacher tried to teach how to make a simple panel lamp 
with crown, to kids that weren't all that experienced, but he was 
convinced that they could do it. needless to say they came out really 
bad, the crowns spiraled, every piece was a different shape, and angle. 
and basically wasted a lot of glass.

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 08:31:17 1996
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	id m0uT82l-0000Jva; Mon, 10 Jun 96 07:34 PDT
X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: BACORA CEMENT???
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:36:53 -0400
Message-ID: <9606101436.AA01545@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Wondering in anyone out there has heard of this Bacora cement...to be used
in place of Inland??? Had a call from a guy says he does restorations on
large public spaces and he was up in Princeton and they are using this
Bacora (spelling may be wrong ) cement.  Anyone out there here of this and
what is the word?

Thanks.
pj friend

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 08:55:49 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Rods
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:37:02 -0400
Message-ID: <9606101437.AA01558@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I had a call last week from someone looking for glass rods.  They are
looking for true colors...as moretti rod red, is really a red orange until
heated.  Because they intend to use these rods without heating them they
need true colors.  Anyone out there know of someone who does this type of
work?  Also they need holes drilled in one end.

Thanks all.
pj friend

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 09:08:00 1996
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	id m0uT9V0-0000Ifa; Mon, 10 Jun 96 09:07 PDT
X-Path: aol.com!IMN2GLASS
From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Statement-GRINDERS
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:07:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun10.8728.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Many other prices below most wholesalers.

>Or visit our 40,000 square foot store/wharehouse

>WARNER-CRIVELLARO


Is Warner on line now, or are you sending this as a personal message?  If on
line, do you have a home page?

I always enjoy visiting your store, except sometimes on Saturday when there
are sooooo many people.  Nice to be popular though huh?

Janet Farrington
IMN2GLASS@aol.com
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 09:14:22 1996
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X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: cut/foil/tack?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:12:11 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606101612.MAA04566@brutus.bright.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 02:40 PM 6/7/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Hello all, Since we haven't had rain in over 80 days and our low temps are
>now in the 80's (highs of 110 degrees, pant pant )..I have moved my stained
>glass workshop into the spare bedroom.  Ahhh, nice air conditioned
>comfort..Working on an 18" octagonal hummingbird hanging.  I am foiling this
>piece and since I usually work w/ came I need my memory jogged on how to
>foil.  I am cutting a piece (one at at time) and then grinding it and then
>foiling it.  Should I tack solder these pieces as I go?? My retailer says to
>cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces and then foil.  I am not
>comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack solder as I go will I have any
>problems a month from now when I get ready to officially solder the entire
>piece??  Thanks all.. beating the heat here in Phoenix.. Lorley
I grind, then foil, then solder.  And my reason for doing each step
separately is that if my panel has tendency to grow, I can adjust while
foiling, the BACKGROUND pieces, instead of doing all the adjusting on the
last pieces cut.  I foil my foreground pieces first, and then if it is too
tight I grind a little more on background.  That way, I don't lose any
important pieces.
Joyce Moran
Garden of Glass
joyce@bright.net

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 09:32:58 1996
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From: ssuter@intrastar.net (Shirley Suter)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Rods
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 11:27:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Jun10.62723.0>
References: <<9606101437.AA01558@water.waterw.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service - (409) 687-9067
Precedence: bulk

pj friend wrote:
> 
> I had a call last week from someone looking for glass rods.  They are
> looking for true colors...as moretti rod red, is really a red orange until
> heated.  Because they intend to use these rods without heating them they
> need true colors.  Anyone out there know of someone who does this type of
> work?  Also they need holes drilled in one end.
> 
> Thanks all.
> pj friend

Hi PJ!

A while back, I, too, needed glass rods.  I found a place in Houston that 
carried clear ones in stock in several diameters:
Scientific Glass & Instruments, Inc.
(713)682-1481 or 1 (800) 899-2137
Talk to Doug Muller...cool dude and they do all sorts of custom glass 
manufacturing.
I hope this helps!

Shirley Suter
Grapeland, Tx. where it is FINALLY raining!!!
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 10 22:26:54 1996
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!vnunit1
From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: [forward] cut/foil/tack?
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 22:24:58 -0700
Message-ID: <199606110524.WAA15015@dfw-ix12.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
>> From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
>> My retailer says to cut all pieces and then grind to fit all pieces 
and then foil.  I am not comfortable w/ this method.  If I do tack 
solder as I go will I have any problems a month from now when I get 
ready to officially solder the entire piece??
>>
Lorley,
We have really good luck with a piece of either drywall or ceiling tile 
and pushpins.  I try to cut, grind to fit-using the pins to hold the 
pieces in place-and then solder.  This way I don't have alot of flux 
and solder sitting on the piece oxidizing while I am fitting the other 
pieces.  I have found that it also allows me to correct for mis-cuts or 
variations from the line on the pattern alot more easily!  Good Luck!
Teresa
Color It Glass!
e-mail vnunit1@ix.netcom.com
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 11 16:58:58 1996
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	id m0uTdJV-0000Ita; Tue, 11 Jun 96 16:57 PDT
X-Path: monmouth.com!clambert
From: C Lambert <clambert@monmouth.com>
To: "'steamy'" <xlents@ids.net>
Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 19:48:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun11.15482.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Please respond upon receipt problem with farfignuggin email
CRZKT

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 11 17:28:36 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:27:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun11.162736.0>
References: <<1996Jun11.15482.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

C Lambert wrote:
> 
> Please respond upon receipt problem with farfignuggin email
> CRZKT
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

this is to c lambert, 

	i got this message i'm not sure exactly what it means, but the  
TO address was to: "steamy" <zlents@ids.net> instead of bungi.com


---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 05:37:51 1996
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From: elgarber@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu (Ellen Garber)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:37:17 -0500
Message-ID: <9606121237.AA34529@ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu>
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please subscribe elgarber@falcon.cc.ukans.edu

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 06:19:22 1996
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	id m0uTpoU-0000Jza; Wed, 12 Jun 96 06:18 PDT
X-Path: aol.com!Glsslizard
From: Glsslizard@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Lets Liven Things Up!!!!
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:18:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun12.51824.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Here's my intro......I've been doing glass about 3 or 4 years.  I have just
recently finished a small lamp, and am currently working on a small panel of
a lizard (Glass lizard - get it?)  I haven't had much time this last year to
work on my glass, but I'm vowing to make time this summer.  I've dabbled in
just about everything - suncatchers, panels, lamps, boxes, candleholders,
Christmas ornaments, and I have a million ideas in my head.  Most of my stuff
is small, because my workbench area is small.  I only use copper foil - I've
never tried lead came.  And most of my stuff is presents for my friends and
family.  I've only sold one piece to a co-worker.   But I love it!


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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 13:50:46 1996
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From: ebsousa@interserv.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: dream workshop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:49:35 -0700
Message-ID: <199606122049.AA06233@relay.interserv.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

To Glass Lizard,
	Welcome to the group. I can relate to the small work area problem. My 
"studio" is a 5x7 mudroom that I only recently insulated and added heat to.( try 
cutting glass that is about 40 degrees F  if you want a real experience in 
frustration.) This weekend I was working on a lamp and on my 3 foot work bench I 
had my lamp form, pieces I was recutting, soldering Iron, and grinder and copper 
foil. I didn't even have room to put down my tools. While making plans to expand 
my work surface to 7 feet, I got to wondering how I would design my "dream 
workshop" if money and space were not an obstacle ( like that will ever happen 
in my life time!!)  I thought that a 10' x 10' room would be good for starters.
with 2 4'x8' work benches in an L arrangement, so that I could cut and grind on 
one then just turn to assemble and solder the pieces. I would also have a big 
sink for cleaning the pieces right there so I wouldn't have to carry them thru 
the house to wash them in the bathroom sink. And of course lots of big 
windows!!!  So anybody else out there  want to share their dream workshop plans?
	Donna S.
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 15:14:23 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: dream workshop
Date: 12 Jun 96 18:07:27 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun12.22727.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >So anybody else out there  want to share their dream workshop plans?

Well, I'll tell you how I built my studio a few years ago:  I framed up for a
20'x 40' concrete slab in the back yard and had the local concrete delivery
service bring their truck with enough for the job.  When I'd shoveled it around
and smoothed it, I pushed those steel fencepost brackets into the soft concrete
every 8 feet.

When the concrete had set I merely built a fence all the way around the slab,
creating a double door with two of the 8-footers, setting that section of fence
on big hinges.  The fence (now an enclosing wall) on one long side of the
rectangle had been cut 10" lower than on the other side, so when I threw rafters
across, there was a natural pitch to the roof, which I covered with corrugated
fiberglass roofing.  Since I'd built the fence like a board- and-batten setup,
but left out the battens (this was California), the breezes could float through.
Powered two small glass furnaces off the house meter with a propane bleed; house
power.  Very cheap to run; less than $100/month.

Time to build?  3-4 days.  Cost?  $400.  (in 1971) <g>
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 15:55:44 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: dream workshop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 18:54:42 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun12.145442.0>
References: <<199606122049.AA06233@relay.interserv.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

ebsousa@interserv.com wrote:
> 
> To Glass Lizard,
>         Welcome to the group. I can relate to the small work area problem. My
> "studio" is a 5x7 mudroom that I only recently insulated and added heat to.( try
> cutting glass that is about 40 degrees F  if you want a real experience in
> frustration.) This weekend I was working on a lamp and on my 3 foot work bench I
> had my lamp form, pieces I was recutting, soldering Iron, and grinder and copper
> foil. I didn't even have room to put down my tools. While making plans to expand
> my work surface to 7 feet, I got to wondering how I would design my "dream
> workshop" if money and space were not an obstacle ( like that will ever happen
> in my life time!!)  I thought that a 10' x 10' room would be good for starters.
> with 2 4'x8' work benches in an L arrangement, so that I could cut and grind on
> one then just turn to assemble and solder the pieces. I would also have a big
> sink for cleaning the pieces right there so I wouldn't have to carry them thru
> the house to wash them in the bathroom sink. And of course lots of big
> windows!!!  So anybody else out there  want to share their dream workshop plans?
>         Donna S.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would like to have more room my self, currently i have a 3'x8' bench 
(the main bench) with cabinets underneath, one of them has my scrap box, 
and next to it has 16x20's. underneath the cabinets are smaller boxes to 
sort out scrap colors. behind the unit there are about dozen milk crates 
that holds my glass, 8x12, 12x12, 12x16, etc., including larger scrap.  
on another wall i have to benches against an outer corner wall. besides 
holding more glass, on top is all my saws, grinders, etc. and on the oil 
tank i have another glass cabinet that holds 20x20's etc.

If I had more space, I would like to have a built in sink, a table sink 
(the kind you can easily wash a panel in).  I'd like to have a dedicated 
table with some kind of built in reservoir to catch spilled water from 
the grinders.  And of course all the bigger equipment too, beveling 
machines, sandblasting unit, large electronic based kiln, a foundry 
area, etc.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 16:04:01 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: dream workshop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:57:00 -0500
Message-ID: <199606122257.RAA15077@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

  Ah! dream workshop.... mine would have glass bins capable of holding
10,000 sq. ft. of glass...ALL FULL!!


 Back to reality.... Iwould suggest that your shop, no matter what size,
have all the work tables fitted with ajustable lockable casters so that the
space can be configured to meet the needs of the project at hand, smaller
tables can be pushed together when needed for larger pieces, tables can be
moved aside when floor space needs to be used for handling larger materials
etc. etc. It really helps!

   Len

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 20:48:56 1996
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From: ssuter@intrastar.net (Shirley Suter)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:  Dream Workshop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:42:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Jun12.174220.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service - (409) 687-9067
Precedence: bulk

It sure is funny how life will treat you.  Just today, I was in my studio 
filling an order for a gift shop.  While I was cutting what seemed to be 
mile after mile of glass, I started thinking what the perfect studio 
setup would be like.  Then I came into the computer room and checked my 
e-mail and low-and-behold, others are thinking about the same thing!!
Must be the moon!!!

I must admit, you guys have humbled me.  I never knew that I already have 
the perfect setup....minus the 10,000 sq.ft. of glass.  Until this 
evening, I was not aware that others were dreaming of being as fortunate 
as me (and I am ashamed of me).  

We live in a 125 year old farmhouse on 6 acres.  We have no neighbors, 
just lots of cows and virgin woods to surround us.  My studio is a 14 x 
14 room (supposed to be a guest room) with its own walk-in closet lined 
with shelves for my foil, spools of solder, extra supplies and all of my 
larger patterns from projects gone by.  I also have my own separate 
private bathroom with a long counter, 2 sinks, a potty and a bathtub for 
washing larger panels.  There are ceiling to floor windows on one wall 
and two smaller windows on another.  I do have the L shape benches (made 
of two 8 ft. banquet tables covered with plywood.  I also have another 
banquet table in the middle of the room that I use for design work, 
bookkeeping, doodling, and a great place to serve coffee to clients and 
go over pattern requirements.  When I need to assemble a large panel, I 
have 2 sheets of sheetrock to put on this table to make a much larger 
surface.  I also have a glass bin that my husband built that is capable 
of holding that 10,000 sq. ft. of glass if I can ever afford to 
completely fill it.  The only drawback to the bin is that it has no place 
to hold the full sheets of glass I purchase at the wholesaler.  These 
just lean against the side of the bin (the clear textures live behind the 
door).  I even have a section of smooth wall for using my projector to 
enlarge patterns. All this and central heat and air...72* year round. 
Lucky, huh?!?

Next time I feel sorry for myself for not having the perfect studio, I 
swear I will pack up and move into a closet.  I didn't know how fortunate 
I was until I read many of your letters.  Thanks, ya'll!!!

Shirley Suter
Grapeland, Tx.

My Grandmother's Advise:  Never travel without bar-b-que sauce....you 
may find yourself having to eat crow.
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 21:09:06 1996
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From: Steven Steele <steel00@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: dream workshop 
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:57:36 PDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun13.55736.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

<So anybody else out there  want to share their dream workshop plans?
	Donna S.>
Space would be wonderful... airconditioning would be even better... here in 
west TX the summers are kind of toasty.
Since space is always a prob, I found that my Crafstsman workbench deep 
drawer just fits the grinder (works for 99% of the glass sizes I use). Then I 
got rid of all the other nonglass related tools and have some organized 
storage for tools and glass. Is there ever enough space for glass?

I'm very new to glass but have found it to be a consuming hobby. When I first 
started it was the most intense thing I had ever done with my clothes on... 
now I don't use the qualifier to describe the experience.

Back to the ideal shop, a huge sink would be nice. 

I've found that large folding tables (industrial strength) make great work 
surfaces and then fold out of the way if you want to do something mundane 
like park a car in the shop area.

Steven
-------------------------------------
E-mail: steel00@ibm.net 
06/12/96
22:57:36

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 12 21:24:51 1996
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From: diamonds@juno.com (Mary J Austin)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: dream workshop
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 22:17:12 PST
Message-ID: <1996Jun13.61712.0>
References: <<199606122049.AA06233@relay.interserv.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I'm in a fix like you except I share the garage with my husband and his
wood working. Which I benefit from too. I'd like more bench area with
little to no tools laying around. More lighting, better hanging wall
space(storage), larger wall mounted glass storage bins, a sink, a larger
(comercial) magnifying glass light and a seperate area for drawing up
designs( where I could leave them  laying out and not be bothered with
my cats). A good cabinnet and wall storage for my patterns would be nice
too. An album area for storing photos of my stained glass projects
completed would be nice too. Why I'm at it I might as well add some more
money to buy all the lamp forms, patterns and extra glass I'd like to
have on hand too.
Oh if I only could turn those dreams into reality!!!!!!!

Thanks, Mary
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 04:51:56 1996
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From: mack@spdc.ti.com (Caren Mack)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Dream shop...
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 06:49:48 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <9606131149.AA01112@epcot.spdc.ti.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dream shop...

     Well, I'm close to finishing my workshop, which isn't the dream
I really wish I had, but it works very well and I really like it.
I had a 8x10 Morgan building which I was using for the usual storage
that I moved everything out of and I converted into a small shop
or studio.  
     So when does a shop become a studio???  
Anyway...
     I put R13 insulation in the ceiling and walls and covered it
using 1"x6"x6' cedar fencing.  I wanted a rustic look and originally
wanted old barn wood, but couldn't find any and settled for the new
rustic cedar.  I then bought 2 ft wide doors to use as a table top
the 8 ft length of the building.  This is the hallow doors and cost
only $15 a piece.  I installed them so I can replace it easily, yet
its sturdy.  There are shelves underneath and my glass bins, 8 for 
12"x 12" and 2 for about 2'x 2'.   On the other 8ft wall I have a 
commercial drafting table I found at a garage sale last fall, a small 
bar refrig and a small T.V.   Hey, whats wrong with a DrPepper and a 
little noise!  I put the self adhesive 12" square tile on the floor 
which is really nice for clean-up.  When I installed the table top, 
starting from left to right, I built-in my light box, then in-set my 
grinder to table top level leaving the rest as my work table.  The
drafting table will lay flat to 3 ft wide and can use this if needed.
In the ceiling I have a 6ft double flourecant light and a 1 or2 ft
flourecant on the shelf above the table top.  A few custome touches
here and there, and  even though it may sound small, it really has 
plenty of space, its comfortable and it's dedicated to my glass.
    What now remains is to build a screen door and install an air 
conditioner, which is really needed in this TX heat.  I've been putting 
this off dreading have to cut the metal,  but just realized this week 
my reluctance to get out there because of the misquitos and the heat, 
so I need to get these two things done!  The building is under trees, 
so when I get off work in the morning, its nice and cool till noon and 
in the shade.  I was really surprised how the insulation keeps the 
overnight cool temp in the building longer when its hot outside.  This 
will really help the air conditioner use of electricity.
     I thought about trading-in this building for a 10'x16' Morgan
building which "really" would have been nice.  But I opted to 
spend the additional money I would have spent on the larger building
on an air conditioner, supplies and equipment.  

     I enjoy reading all about your dream shops, ideas, tips and just
anything glass.  So keep them coming!

          -= Caren =-                                mack@spdc.ti.com
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 05:32:49 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Dream Workshop
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:31:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun13.43116.0>
References: <<1996Jun12.174220.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

Shirley,

I think I can speak for most of us when I say that I am jealous.  We 
just had a baby which makes the house seem even smaller.  Our studio is 
now portable:  somtimes in the dining room, sometimes in the basement, 
sometimes in the garage.

Matt McDonnell
-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 05:57:56 1996
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From: Rebecca Smith <rwsmith@aristotle.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Oh Dreams
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:05:37 -0500
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960613065742.24573362@aristotle.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi all:
The Dream Studio/Work space sent me off into a fantasy world. I work on a
card table. That is the most space I can get. We live in a 130 year old
house that is one of the 3 oldest houses in the city. I am smack dab
downtown. Our lot measures 47 1/2 feet by 75 feet. In the front we are 7
feet from the sidewalk, east- 1/2 foot from the property line, west- 5 feet
from the alley, and back 25 by 75 which is where we park the car. We also
have National Register and local preservation guide lines to follow and or
abide by. No space to build a seperate building or add a room, so the card
table in the dinning room is as close as I will ever get. I cut larger
pieces on the floor. Ya'll keep dreaming so I can float off into that
wonderful dream world of yours.

Rebecca Smith (rwsmith@aristotle.net)

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 06:38:29 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Dream Workshop
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:37:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun13.53738.0>
References: <<1996Jun12.174220.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Suter wrote:
> 
> It sure is funny how life will treat you.  Just today, I was in my studio
> filling an order for a gift shop.  While I was cutting what seemed to be
> mile after mile of glass, I started thinking what the perfect studio
> setup would be like.  Then I came into the computer room and checked my
> e-mail and low-and-behold, others are thinking about the same thing!!
> Must be the moon!!!
> 
> I must admit, you guys have humbled me.  I never knew that I already have
> the perfect setup....minus the 10,000 sq.ft. of glass.  Until this
> evening, I was not aware that others were dreaming of being as fortunate
> as me (and I am ashamed of me).
> 
> We live in a 125 year old farmhouse on 6 acres.  We have no neighbors,
> just lots of cows and virgin woods to surround us.  My studio is a 14 x
> 14 room (supposed to be a guest room) with its own walk-in closet lined
> with shelves for my foil, spools of solder, extra supplies and all of my
> larger patterns from projects gone by.  I also have my own separate
> private bathroom with a long counter, 2 sinks, a potty and a bathtub for
> washing larger panels.  There are ceiling to floor windows on one wall
> and two smaller windows on another.  I do have the L shape benches (made
> of two 8 ft. banquet tables covered with plywood.  I also have another
> banquet table in the middle of the room that I use for design work,
> bookkeeping, doodling, and a great place to serve coffee to clients and
> go over pattern requirements.  When I need to assemble a large panel, I
> have 2 sheets of sheetrock to put on this table to make a much larger
> surface.  I also have a glass bin that my husband built that is capable
> of holding that 10,000 sq. ft. of glass if I can ever afford to
> completely fill it.  The only drawback to the bin is that it has no place
> to hold the full sheets of glass I purchase at the wholesaler.  These
> just lean against the side of the bin (the clear textures live behind the
> door).  I even have a section of smooth wall for using my projector to
> enlarge patterns. All this and central heat and air...72* year round.
> Lucky, huh?!?
> 
> Next time I feel sorry for myself for not having the perfect studio, I
> swear I will pack up and move into a closet.  I didn't know how fortunate
> I was until I read many of your letters.  Thanks, ya'll!!!
> 
> Shirley Suter
> Grapeland, Tx.
> 
> My Grandmother's Advise:  Never travel without bar-b-que sauce....you
> may find yourself having to eat crow.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


For you glass storage situation, you should build a glass rack on one 
wall, or under those two tables you mentioned.  Your lucky too have that 
amount of space.  My space is similar, etc., it's an odd shape and half 
of it is filled up with my tools ... and knowing me, i'd probably fill 
that space up in know time.

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 06:47:43 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Oh Dreams
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:46:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun13.54649.0>
References: <<2.2.16.19960613065742.24573362@aristotle.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Rebecca Smith wrote:
> 
> Hi all:
> The Dream Studio/Work space sent me off into a fantasy world. I work on a
> card table. That is the most space I can get. We live in a 130 year old
> house that is one of the 3 oldest houses in the city. I am smack dab
> downtown. Our lot measures 47 1/2 feet by 75 feet. In the front we are 7
> feet from the sidewalk, east- 1/2 foot from the property line, west- 5 feet
> from the alley, and back 25 by 75 which is where we park the car. We also
> have National Register and local preservation guide lines to follow and or
> abide by. No space to build a seperate building or add a room, so the card
> table in the dinning room is as close as I will ever get. I cut larger
> pieces on the floor. Ya'll keep dreaming so I can float off into that
> wonderful dream world of yours.
> 
> Rebecca Smith (rwsmith@aristotle.net)
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


do you have any attic space, or maybe a basement, too work in?

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 13:16:25 1996
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From: PhillRoey@gnn.com (Phillip Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: mosiac garden stones
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:14:04
Message-ID: <199606132015.QAA00615@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi!
	Thanks to everyone who gave me advice and suggestions for making mosiac 

garden stones.  I did my first stone using a plastic bucket for a mold. (The 
kind from a warehouse store that we buy laundry detergent in.)  I put the 
glass on clear contact paper and set this in the bottom of the greased bucket 

and used Quick set Quickrete.  I was really pleased with the results.  The 
only problem was that we noticed afterwards that the bucket was warped, so 
the stone wasn't perfectly flat across the top, but I'm not sure anyone else 
would notice.  As we live on two acres, I have plenty of places to put the 
imperfections until I get this down.  I'd like to practice some more and than 

make some as gifts.  
	Thanks again!!!  I got some really good ideas from the group.  -Jerri

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 13 17:36:00 1996
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From: ebsousa@interserv.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: Workshop
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:34:55 -0700
Message-ID: <199606140034.AA13030@relay.interserv.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Caren,
	I like your idea of having the grinder set in the work surface but how 
do you clean it? Does it pop out easily? I can't quite picture how it would 
work.
	Donna S.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 03:17:54 1996
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From: mack@spdc.ti.com (Caren Mack)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Workshop
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 05:16:50 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <9606141016.AA11646@epcot.spdc.ti.com>
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> Caren,
> 	I like your idea of having the grinder set in the work surface but how 
> do you clean it? Does it pop out easily? I can't quite picture how it would 
> work.
> 	Donna S.

Hi Donna,

     The grinder is setting technically on a shelf below the table top
with sides, setting the grinder table level with the table top.  The 
space is wide enough to lift the grinder in and out, or move it back so 
I can get to the built-in drawer.   For cleaning I pull it straight up
and have a lid to a plastic shoe box used as a tray under it to catch 
any water that drips out of the grinder.  For some reason my grinder has 
started losing water.  I've lined the bottom and sides of the inset with 
formica for water protection.  I haven't done this yet, but the counter 
top space around the grinder will have a piece of plywood with formica on 
the top with a whole the shape of the ginder.  I think I'll try dowels 
in the four corners as pins to hold it in place, yet giving me easy access.  
For a shield, I used the plastic shoe box, cutting out one of the long 
sides and set it on that side, giving me protection from the back, top and 
sides.  When not is use, I lay it flat so it covers and keeps dust off the 
grinder.
     This is just what I came up with and I'm sure there are better ways
to set this type of thing up, but it works for me.

     Caren
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 04:34:27 1996
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From: MPGP79B@prodigy.com (PEGGY M PALM)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Workshop
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:23:26, -0500
Message-ID: <199606141123.HAA18818@mime2.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Caren-

I like this idea of yours, too.  Very clever!

> For some reason my grinder has started losing water....

If it has a rubber plug in the drain hole, have you already tried
replacing that?  Sometimes they don't seal as well when they get older.

> top space around the grinder will have a piece of plywood with
formica on
>  the top with a whole the shape of the ginder. 

I used a large scrap of no wax vinyl floor covering under mine.  Works
great, can be glued down if necessary, and can be cut to shape with
scissors.  (I'm not much of a woodworker.  If you are, just ignore this
:-) )

Thanks for sharing your ideas.       Peggy
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 05:38:47 1996
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	id m0uUY8f-0000R8a; Fri, 14 Jun 96 05:38 PDT
X-Path: YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu!UCONNVM.UCONN.EDU!HCLADM02
From:         HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu
To:           glass@bungi.com
Subject:      Re: Workshop
Date:         Fri, 14 Jun 96 08:32:17 EDT
Message-ID:   <960614.083727.EDT.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
References: <<9606141016.AA11646@epcot.spdc.ti.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

If your grinder is leaking, you may just want to lift it up a bit so it
doesn't sit in a puddle.  I'm a little leary about letting anything
electrical set in water.  Someday, you'll get a short or a shock.
My grinder is up on a couple of long wood blocks (just scraps) over a
tiled surface.

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 06:25:27 1996
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X-Path: execpc.com!kshawkey
From: kshawkey@execpc.com (Curt & Karen Shawkey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Workshop
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:24:34 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <199606141324.IAA04502@mail.execpc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>My grinder is up on a couple of long wood blocks (just scraps) over a
>tiled surface.

I have my grinder sitting on one of those plastic grided ceiling light
covers similar to the morton cutting surface.  With that there is no chance
of the grinder sitting in water.

I am enjoying all the wonderful ideas that every one has here.

Karen

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 18:07:27 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: BlindCopyReceiver:;@compuserve,.com
Subject: IGGA NEWS MEMO! 06/14/96
Date: 14 Jun 96 21:01:50 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun15.1150.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

-----------------------------------------------------------------
IGGA Online News Memo!                              June 14, 1996
-----------------------------------------------------------------
                 Random glass info passed along
                   after being compiled by the
           International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
               a 501(c)(6) nonprofit organization
-----------------------------------------------------------------

GlassWeekend '97
at Wheaton Village

This is  THE  weekend  at  Wheaton  Village!    An  international
symposium and  exhibition of  contemporary glass opened yesterday
and runs through Sunday, June 15th. If you hadn't already planned
to make  the trip,  this is  your chance  to change  your  plans.
Wheaton Village  is at  1501 Glasstown Road, Millville, NJ 08332.
Call (609) 825-6800 ext.  2733.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

OSHA Inspectors
Focus on Schools

A member  of the  Guild, Susan  N.   Goodwin, who  teaches  glass
techniques  at   Woodstock  Academy  in  Woodstock,  Connecticut,
contacted us  the other  day, saying:  "Just a quick note about a
problem we,  as an art department are facing.  OSHA  says we must
shut down  our glass  program unless we use non-leaded solder.  I
tried it  -- *lousy  results.    Are  there any  irons or  fluxes
available for  use with  non-leaded solder?   Any advice would be
appreciated."
          We immediately routed her concerns to Monona Rossol, an
industrial hygienist  with Arts,  Crafts &  Theater Safety (ACTS)
and a  member of  IGGA's board.   She  responded, "Actually, OSHA
doesn't say  that you  must use  lead-free or shut down.  It says
that you must follow the OSHA Lead Standard (29 CFR 1910.1025) if
you continue  to use  lead in  any way  that causes workers to be
exposed.   To meet this standard, your school first would have to
pay for  personal air-monitoring  during soldering  to  establish
your exposure.   If  these tests  show that airborne lead is over
the action  level, they  would have  to provide many precautions,
including isolation of the studio, showers and changing rooms for
people to  use before  they left,  regular blood  lead tests, and
more.   Even if  the test  shows you are not exposed to lead over
the action  level, they  would have  to provide special training,
cleanup procedures  that insure  people are  not taking home lead
dust on their clothes and shoes, isolation of lead areas, etc.
          "If your administrators are not dummies, they also know
that  the  direct  liability  relationship  they  have  with  the
students could  leave them  open to  lawsuits.  For example, if a
student were  pregnant and  she  or  the  baby  (newly  delivered
infants' cord  blood is  routinely monitored  for  lead  in  many
states) were  high or  if any individual student turned up with a
high lead  count --  for whatever  reason --  there could  be  an
action.
          "I only know of one stained glass studio in the country
(I pray  there are  others) and not one school (except those that
are lead-free) that meets the OSHA regulations.
          "Most stained glass businesses and schools are breaking
the law.   It  is a problem I repeatedly explain to stained glass
people and  somehow it  just doesn't sink in: the entire industry
MUST change  to lead-free  or spend  the money to do all the lead
testing, recordkeeping,  and  precautions.    Only  self-employed
individuals or  hobbyists doing their own work ALONE in their own
studios do  not come under OSHA regulations and could continue to
work the  way we  are used  to seeing.  Students also do not come
under OSHA, but they can sue their teacher's socks off.
          "[As far  as a good lead-free solder goes,] I have been
talking to Johnson Metals, who have reportedly developed a really
good  lead-free   solder,  but   I  can't  get  them  to  provide
information so  I can  let artists  know.   It is likely that the
electronics industry  is taking ALL their production at this time
and they can't make other commitments.
          "Before switching  fluxes and  irons, why  not try some
other lead  solders?   There are  some out  there that people are
using with  success.  Which one did you try? Maybe I can give you
the names  of other  companies from  whom you can get samples and
see if they work better. I also just wrote a review of came for a
magazine whose  editor says that it's a lead-free came people use
and like."

We said  that we were surprised to hear that OSHA is even around,
as deeply  as their  funding  has  been  cut!"  to  which  Monona
replied,
          "Their cut  funding had  caused them to decide they can
only concentrate  on the  really "serious" hazards.  Accordingly,
OSHA announced  it will step up enforcement of certain rules this
year, two  of which  are the  Standards for silica and lead. [See
following story.]
          "I know this seems hard, but it could be a blessing for
you and  your students  to learn how to use the lead-free solders
successfully.  They will probably always be harder to handle than
lead ones.  Anything I can do to help, I certainly will."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ACTS lists schools
targeted by OSHA

Schools across the U.S. were recently visited by OSHA and slapped
with fines  for violations on a wide variety of counts, according
to ACTS FACTS.  These are the ten largest fines:
          Marist College  (NY) was  fined  $43,650.;  New  Mexico
State University  (NM), $41,500.;  University of the Ozarks (AR),
$24,500.; Mount Saint Mary College (NY), $20,700., Upsala College
(NJ), $19,600.,  Stevens Institute  of Technology (NJ), $19,150.,
Boston University  (MA), $18,925.,  Wayne State  University (MI),
$18,455., College  of Wooster  (OH), $18,375., and Elizabeth City
State College  (NC), $16,500.  While many of the fines were later
reduced on appeal, others were increased.
          A more complete description of the violations found and
corrected appears  in the  June 1996  issue, which  notes,  "OSHA
reduces fines  greatly if the school shows a good faith effort to
correct the  problems quickly;  full fines  are usually  required
only when  violations are  not abated."   If you'd like info like
this on  a regular  basis, the  monthly newsletter is $15/year in
the U.S.  ($2 more  in Canada  & Mexico;  $6 more elsewhere) from
ACTS FACTS, 181 Thompson St., #23, New York, NY 10012.
=================================================================
Do you like receiving this online news memo?

Don't do anything; we'll send it to you whenever we get around to
it, which might be fairly often.  Or not.  It depends on how busy
        the Exec.  Dir., Albert Lewis, might be that day or week.

You don't like it?
                            If this is addressed to you DIRECTLY,
                        simply reply to 70544.3642@compuserve.com
                  saying UNSUBSCRIBE in the text of your message.
            If you receive it via a NEWSGROUP with a glass focus,
             you'll have to UNSUBSCRIBE from the newsgroup, alas.

 If you're receiving TWO copies, that's because you get it direct
        at your email address AND via the NEWSGROUP.  Let us know
 in a note to 70544.3642@compuserve.com and we'll set the program
                                 to eliminate the duplicate copy.
=================================================================

Our Mission: To facilitate communication among glass artists, to
encourage  education and promote excellence in the glass arts.
           __________________________________________
           International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
           Tonetta Lake Road  ***   Brewster NY 10509
           (914) 278-2152         Fax: (914) 278-2481
           __________________________________________
           Membership info: 70544.3642@compuserve.com

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 14 22:14:29 1996
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X-Path: sagelink.com!pkelly
From: Patrick E Kelly <pkelly@sagelink.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:18:08 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun14.17188.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5A50.24DA7240
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Here I am. I am relatively new at both stained glass and the internet. I live in Central Texas. Where are you?
----------
From: 	Marissa Toghyani[SMTP:marissat@atlas.na.informix.com]
Sent: 	Monday, June 03, 1996 12:31 PM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	where is everybody?

is the server down?  I'm not getting any glass email & I miss it.

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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 02:50:07 1996
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	id m0uUryH-0000Mba; Sat, 15 Jun 96 02:48 PDT
X-Path: juno.com!diamonds
From: diamonds@juno.com (Mary J Austin)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:35:07 PST
Message-ID: <1996Jun15.11357.0>
References: <<1996Jun14.17188.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I live in Greenwood In and hope to move to Austin Tx by May or June of
next year. I've been doing stained glass for 3 yrs.. I've also been
doing fusing. I have a small kiln and just recently purchased a large
kiln. If you haven't tried it I suggest you do. It's nice for making
jewelry in the small kiln or coasters. In the larger one try making
vases and or bowls for decoration use only. The fusing allows you to
learn a different aspect of glass and you get to make neat gifts for
giving to people. If you'f like to share patterns let me know. I have a
large variety and this would allow us to save money and gain new
interesting patterns. I do this with my sister who lives in Austin. Good
luck.

Mary
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 03:53:11 1996
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X-Path: spdc.ti.com!mack
From: mack@spdc.ti.com (Caren Mack)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Workshop
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 05:50:18 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <9606151050.AA21985@epcot.spdc.ti.com>
References: <<960614.083727.EDT.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> If your grinder is leaking, you may just want to lift it up a bit so it
> doesn't sit in a puddle.  I'm a little leary about letting anything
> electrical set in water.  Someday, you'll get a short or a shock.
> My grinder is up on a couple of long wood blocks (just scraps) over a
> tiled surface.

     Good point!  It is actually lifted about 1/4 inch off the bottom 
because of some plastic ribs sticking up, but I will definitly make more 
space between the grinder and the water!

     I bought some white tape that plumbers use to wrap around pipe
threats to make the connections tighter and sealed.  I wrapped this 
around the lower shaft (that doesn't turn) and the top of the tray
that catches water.  It helped, but the more I've used it, it doesn't
work as efficiently.  As for the plug, it looks tight, and I'll try
this plumbers tape around it and see if it helps.  My grinder is only
6 months old so I don't know what the deal is.

     Caren
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 05:37:52 1996
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	id m0uUuZq-00001Za; Sat, 15 Jun 96 05:35 PDT
X-Path: netaxs.com!maruca
From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:35:27 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun15.43527.0>
References: <<1996Jun15.11357.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Philadelphia and Media PA checking in!


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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 09:35:46 1996
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	id m0uUyHL-0000Nta; Sat, 15 Jun 96 09:32 PDT
X-Path: the.link.ca!dgrant
From: doris grant <dgrant@the.link.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 10:36:06 -0600
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19960615163606.00669ee8@the.link.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello from Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada, where it's finally warm and sunny!

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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 10:25:48 1996
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X-Path: macnet.com!jhendershott
From: jhendershott@macnet.com (Janie Hendershott)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Workshop
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 10:15:34 -0700
Message-ID: <199606151715.KAA26193@jack.macnet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>  My grinder is only
>6 months old so I don't know what the deal is.
>
>     Caren

Caren,
Contract the manufacturer. I'm sure they will make it right. Ususally they
have a 5 yr guarentee. I returned a 1 yo glasstar with a problem and they
fixed it for me, no charge and sent a gift for my trouble.

Janie

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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 11:23:56 1996
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	id m0uV00L-0000Cqa; Sat, 15 Jun 96 11:23 PDT
X-Path: aol.com!Qweenb
From: Qweenb@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 14:23:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun15.102336.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi -My name is Bonnie and I live in Hayward, CA.  I have been doing stained
glass for approximately 1 year, mostly Tiffany style lamps.  I am getting
ready to start my next project, the 18" Odyssey Nasturtium Turban.  I have
been drooling over a sample box of Youghiogheny Stipple glass and have
decided to use it for this project.  Does anyone out there have any
experience with this particular glass that you would be willing to share with
me?  I am curious about how it cuts, grinds, looks, etc...  Thanks in advance
for any hints/tips.  I am new to this list and have enjoyed reading all the
helpful advise.
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 17:13:02 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 20:12:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun15.16127.0>
References: <<1996Jun15.102336.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Qweenb@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi -My name is Bonnie and I live in Hayward, CA.  I have been doing stained
> glass for approximately 1 year, mostly Tiffany style lamps.  I am getting
> ready to start my next project, the 18" Odyssey Nasturtium Turban.  I have
> been drooling over a sample box of Youghiogheny Stipple glass and have
> decided to use it for this project.  Does anyone out there have any
> experience with this particular glass that you would be willing to share with
> me?  I am curious about how it cuts, grinds, looks, etc...  Thanks in advance
> for any hints/tips.  I am new to this list and have enjoyed reading all the
> helpful advise.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I've used some youghiogheny before, it cut real easy, and ground pretty 
easy, a little difficult to foil because it doesn't lay completely 
flat.  It looks stunning, vibrant colors, it disperses light really 
well.  I personally don't use it all that much, a little pricey for me, 
but I every so often I get a good deal or I treat myself and get some.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 15 17:45:10 1996
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X-Path: juno.com!diamonds
From: diamonds@juno.com (Mary J Austin)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 19:43:01 PST
Message-ID: <1996Jun16.3431.0>
References: <<1996Jun15.102336.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi! I live in Greenwood IN. I've used the Youghiogheny glass before and
have been very satisfied with the results. I think you will be too. 
There's not really much glass I don't like using. Except the colors. I
hate amber. I'm getting ready to do a wedding invitation and then a form
lamp. I'm unsure of the exact pattern at this time. It's an antique base
that I want to do it for. It'll eventually go in my living room
which is done in antiques. Let me know how it works for you. Best of
luck.

Mary
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 16 14:39:46 1996
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: Elaine & Howard Rubin <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: Glass list <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: done for now
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 14:38:08 -0500
Message-ID: <199606162139.OAA09618@desiree.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

-- [ From: Elaine & Howard Rubin * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Hi All, this is Howard...PLEASE see and comment on my home page...address is
................
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/

enjoy....
--
Construction done for now: http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard/
                           http://www.teleport.com/~weaver51
Elaine and Howard, mastering technology one byte at a time!
E-Mail address is...weaver51@teleport.com

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 16 17:17:55 1996
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From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:17:47 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun16.161747.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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The late great US Coast Guard base Governors Island, NY.  Just off the tip of
Manhattan, soon to be a ghost town.

Janet
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 16 22:06:37 1996
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From: Neil Sherman <nsherman@hooked.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 19:46:08 -0700
Message-ID: <199606170510.WAA29282@mom.hooked.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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San Francisco here - less than one year doing glass but loving it.

Bonnie Carroll

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 05:26:21 1996
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From: ssuter@intrastar.net (Shirley Suter)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:20:39 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.22039.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Suter's Stained Glass (409) 687-3841
Precedence: bulk

Hi Group ! !
Now that we have built our dream workspaces....let's dream a little more! 
Scenario:  Your supplier (hopefully wholesale) had a drawing from their 
customer list, and your name was drawn to win a $1000 gift certificate.  
How would you spend it?

Shirley Suter
Grapeland, Tx. where it is hot and DRY !

P.S.  Howard, the page looks S U P E R ! ! ! !
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 05:32:06 1996
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From: GCmagazine@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Glass Library On-Line
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:31:21 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.43121.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Check out the new Glass Library site for the largest selection of books and
videos on glass on the web at: http://artglassworld.com/supply/library/
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 05:52:08 1996
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From: diamonds@juno.com (Mary J Austin)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:48:29 PST
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.154829.0>
References: <<1996Jun17.22039.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

If I had that much money to spend, which in glass really isn;'t that
much; I'd buy mostly glass, some patterns, molds, and what's left in
supplies. I'd like more patterns for the tiffany style lamps. I'd also
throw some forms for lamps and bases in there.

So tell Ed McMahan to come on in!!!! I'm ready and the car's all gassed
and redy to go.

Mary
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 06:22:01 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:20:45 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.52045.0>
References: <<1996Jun17.22039.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Suter wrote:
> 
> Hi Group ! !
> Now that we have built our dream workspaces....let's dream a little more!
> Scenario:  Your supplier (hopefully wholesale) had a drawing from their
> customer list, and your name was drawn to win a $1000 gift certificate.
> How would you spend it?
> 
> Shirley Suter
> Grapeland, Tx. where it is hot and DRY !
> 
> P.S.  Howard, the page looks S U P E R ! ! ! !
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


for a $1000 i'd get lots of good quality glass, maybe some dichro. i'd 
get me a large box of solder, and maybe a new bandsaw. and anything left 
over would be for books, jewels and filigree.

basically it would be the same shopping, only i'd get lots more stuff.

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 06:39:25 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 07:36:34 -0600
Message-ID: <199606171336.HAA09381@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In Monteverde, Costa Rica.  No-one else works with glass in Monteverde, so I
really enjoy this line.  I have to import my glass from the USA, and they
put 100% customs duty on it!  Meg Wallace


>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 06:55:18 1996
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re:Where is everyone?
Date: 17 Jun 96 09:50:12 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.135012.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

...in North Wales, PA, which is a Philadelphia suburb.  I'm into my 5th year
doing stained glass, and my first year as a professional.
...Christie

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 07:15:00 1996
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From: Marissa Toghyani <marissat@atlas.na.informix.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: western US glass shops
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 09:16:32 -0700
Message-ID: <199606171417.JAA03543@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I will be taking a long, liesurely drive over the western half of the US in
July and August from the Kansas City area, and was wondering if anyone knows
of any great glass shops or "shouldn't miss" examples of glass work along
the way.  My itinerary is roughly I-80 to San Francisco, I-5 to Leggett, ?
to the LA area, ? to Flastaff, AZ, ? to home.  The itinerary and route are
VERY flexible. Is there anything (glasswise) that I shouldn't miss along the
way?

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 08:38:32 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Qweenb@aol.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:35:40 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.13540.0>
References: <<1996Jun15.102336.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Bonnie!  I have used Youghigani glass and find it cuts nice..much like
Uroborus.  I have also found if I use it with lead came less than 1/4 inch
I have to "stretch" the lead came channel.  I like the "Youghy" glass too.
PJohnsen from Santa Maria,  Ca.  

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 08:56:48 1996
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X-Path: odc.net!arowhead
From: Robert Burmester <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: western US glass shops
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:58:54 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun16.15854.0>
References: <<199606171417.JAA03543@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Digital Odyssey Internet Services
Precedence: bulk

Marissa Toghyani wrote:
> 
> I will be taking a long, liesurely drive over the western half of the US in
> July and August from the Kansas City area, and was wondering if anyone knows
> of any great glass shops or "shouldn't miss" examples of glass work along
> the way.  My itinerary is roughly I-80 to San Francisco, I-5 to Leggett, ?
> to the LA area, ? to Flastaff, AZ, ? to home.  The itinerary and route are
> VERY flexible. Is there anything (glasswise) that I shouldn't miss along the
> way?
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassMarissa,

We are located about 35 miles east of Los Angeles off the I-10 in San 
Bernardino, Calif.  We have one of the largest retail stores in So. 
Calif. with lots of toys and goodies on display.  Joyce and I would love 
to meet you if you are in the area.  In the mean time you can visit our 
web site at http://www.odc.net/arrowhead.

Bob and Joyce Burmester
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 09:01:57 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Marissa Toghyani <marissat@atlas.na.informix.com>
Subject: Re: western US glass shops
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 08:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.13958.0>
References: <<199606171417.JAA03543@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Do not forget to include Royal Glass shop in Colorado Springs.  Home of
Terri Knudsen.  PJ

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 10:06:07 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:05:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.9528.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello Bonnie:

     My wife and I have a glass studio here in Houston Called Shattered
Images.  We just recently completed a 20" Odossey Dragonfly.  It was done
using Yock and Uorob.  The Youroboro cuts like butter.  The Yock, on the
other hand, was extremely hard to work with for me.  There seems to be
varying differences of density and tempering throughout the sheet.  Some
sections cut very well, while others would shatter no matter how you score
it.  Even thought the finished product is georgous, I would advise against
using the Yock, especially if you are still new to glass.  This is only my
opinion.  My wife (whom I taught to do glass approx. 6 weeks ago) didn't seem
to have as many problems with the Yock as I did. (Guess the Yock needs to be
cut with more finace' (?sp).  If you do decide to use the Yock, I'm sure
Howard and Elaine (Weaver51@teleprot.com) would be happy to give you some
suggestions.  He was instrumental in me finishing my Fly.

    Good Luck!!!

Michael & Donna McGrew
Shattered Images
Houston,TX.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 10:35:10 1996
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X-Path: macnet.com!jhendershott
From: Janie Hendershott <jhendershott@macnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: western US glass shops
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 10:41:23 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.34123.0>
References: <<199606171417.JAA03543@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Marissa Toghyani wrote:
> 
> I will be taking a long, liesurely drive over the western half of the US in
> July and August from the Kansas City area, and was wondering if anyone knows
> of any great glass shops or "shouldn't miss" examples of glass work along
> the way.  My itinerary is roughly I-80 to San Francisco, I-5 to Leggett, ?
> to the LA area, ? to Flastaff, AZ, ? to home.  The itinerary and route are
> VERY flexible. Is there anything (glasswise) that I shouldn't miss along the
> way?

You should try for Portland area. Portland is the home of Bullseye glass,
Uroboros Glass, Hot Glass horizon, and then head north to Woodland Wa for 
Spectrum Glass. 

Janie
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 12:55:04 1996
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X-Path: voyager.net!delphigl
From: delphigl@voyager.net (Delphi Stained Glass)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Library On-Line
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 15:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606171954.PAA25564@vixa.voyager.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Check out the new Glass Library site for the largest selection of books and
>videos on glass on the web at: http://artglassworld.com/supply/library/


I tried this site and the address listed is inaccurate.  It should be
http://www.artglassworld.com/supply/library/

Stephanie
______________________________________________________________________
Stephanie Braman       **  E-mail:  delphigl@vixa.voyager.net
Delphi Stained Glass   **  WWW:     http://www.voyager.net/delphiglass
2116 E. Michigan Ave.  **  Voice:   1-800-248-2048 (USA,Canada)
Lansing, MI  48912     **           1-517-482-2617 (International)
USA                    **  Fax:     1-800-748-0374 (USA,Canada)
                                    1-517-482-4028 (International)
_____________________________________________________________________

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 13:38:09 1996
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X-Path: microsoft.com!a-mattla
From: "Matthew Lang (S&T Onsite)" <a-mattla@microsoft.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 13:37:27 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun17.63727.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My revels now are ended. My internet connection is now melted into air,
into thin air. The baseless fabric of this technology shall dissolve.
And like this insubstantial pageant faded, leave not a rack behind. If
indeed we are such stuff as dreams are made on, we should be made of
finer stuff ere long.

Thank you one and all.



Matthew Lang
a-mattla@microsoft.com
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 14:10:02 1996
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From: ebsousa@interserv.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: Ed McMahon at the door
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:08:55 -0700
Message-ID: <199606172108.AA17847@relay.interserv.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

If I had 1000 dollars ?  First I would buy a new grinder, I would like to try 
the Diamond Max (I think thats the right name) it is a combination regular 
grinder and disk grinder. I tend to be a gadget person so next I would spend 
some on assorted gadgets that look fun but I know I don't really need. Maybe I 
would buy a couple of the instructional videos and the rest would be on glass. I 
would get some of the more expensive glasses that I can't afford to use now.
	Donna S.
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 20:51:12 1996
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From: Qweenb@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Ed McMahon at the door
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 18:43:01 -0400
Message-ID: <960617184301_416110289@emout09.mail.aol.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I would spend it all on lamp molds, preferrably -Odyssey.  At their current
price, I wouldn't get many... oh well....some is better than none.
Bonnie Johnston
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 20:53:43 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Corel Draw
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 16:00:25 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.93.960617155717.26851A-100000@spork.callamer.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Several weeks ago the group was discussing drawing programs, specifically
Corel Draw.  I am finding it is difficult to get the software because
stores do not have it in stock or it is sold out.  Can anyone tell me the
difference between Corel Draw v. 3, 4, and 5.  I do not have Windows 95 so
I am unable to consider version 6.  Help!

Peggy Johnsen
edupjohn@slonet.org

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 20:57:47 1996
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From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 21:48:04 -0400
Message-ID: <960617214802_137118540@emout16.mail.aol.com>
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In a message dated 96-06-17 08:26:44 EDT, you write:

<< Now that we have built our dream workspaces....let's dream a little more! 
 Scenario:  Your supplier (hopefully wholesale) had a drawing from their 
 customer list, and your name was drawn to win a $1000 gift certificate.  
 How would you spend it? >>

If I had $1000 gift certificate, I'd spend most of it on glass.  I'd also
like to take a lead class, or maybe learn a bit about hot glass or engraving.
 

On second thought, maybe I'd buy a thousand lottery tickets to see if I could
win the big one, because a thousand dollars wouldn't go far enough.  :-)

Janet
IMN2GLASS@aol.com
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 17 21:03:58 1996
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From: "Julie M. Thomson" <jthomson@awinc.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: My frustrations
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 20:59:16 -0700
Message-ID: <m0uVrzc-000d3DC@mail.awinc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am another "newbie" (< 1 year) to glass work, and have a couple of
frustrations for which I request assitance:

- Pattern Transfer - 

My instructor showed us only one method of pattern transfer: trace the
pattern onto cardstock, cut it using foil pattern scissors, then attach it
to the glass using double sided masking tape.  This is fine and dandy when I
get a nice close cut, but when my cut is bad (see the next frustration!) and
I have to grind to get down to the correct size/shape, the paper
disintigrates from the water transfered to the glass and the tape adhesion
disappears so that I am left with no pattern piece to follow!

So, thinking that I would try something different, I decided to cut out the
pattern pieces as described above, then trace around the pieces onto the
glass using permanent ink.  At least the pen SAYS that it's permanent.
Again, it all comes down to grinding... the water washes the ink away and
again I am lost.

So, how should I be doing this pattern transfer to glass?  Perhaps my
grinder is spewing too much water onto the glass?  Do I need a new sponge?
Or a different type of pen?  Or different paper?  HELP!


- Cutting -

I have a Toyo cutter... a "saddle" shape.  When I first purchased it (in
December) it had MAJOR cutting oil flow onto the glass.  So much so that I
seemed to leave a small creek behind me as I cut.  My cuts broke very easily
(nicely).  Somehow or another, over time, my cutter must have become plugged
because now I do not see ANY oil on the glass, and can't even get any on my
finger when I roll the cutting disk over it.  I have tried to clean it
(thinking that there may be small glass shards near the wheel) and I have
even loosened the top just in case I have an air lock.  Still, this doesn't
seem to help.  However, if I leave the cutter for several days then return I
find that it is empty of oil and I must once again fill it.  My glass does
not break as well as it did, either.

So, being new at this craft, and less sure of myself, I am now afraid to cut
near the edge of my pattern as I know that I am very likely to break it
incorrectly and then will require major grinding which goes back to my first
frustration!  Any suggestions?


- Worden Pattern System -

Ok, this isn't really a frustration.  Well, sort of.... my former instructor
is planning to teach a class using the Worden (is that correct???) system
for "dome" lamps in the fall.  I just moved into a new house and desperately
need to build a lamp for my kitchen nook.  I don't want to wait until the
fall!!!  Now, she says that I will *need* to take a class.  However, I built
a panel lamp on my own (with no instruction other than from the pattern
book), and I have been very successful (in *my* opinion) at teaching myself
several crafts and other subjects in the past.  I feel confident that I can
figure out how to follow the pattern, especially if I take my time and am
extremely careful.  My question is this: what is your opinion?  Should I
wait for the class, or try it on my own?  If I go on my own, where do I
purchase the form & patterns from?


Thanks in advance!

=====================================
Julie M. Thomson - jthomson@awinc.com
Castlegar, British Columbia, Canada
=====================================

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 06:51:45 1996
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From: Trigley@wport.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: please add mr to your list of subscribers,thanks.
Date: 17 Jun 1996 22:37:22 PST
Message-ID: <9606180609.AA10205@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com>
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 06:51:49 1996
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From: iweal@whanganui.ac.nz (Ivan Weal)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:08:07 +1200
Message-ID: <199606180608.SAA23738@nethost.whanganui.ac.nz>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hello from Wanganui, New Zealand. Have been receiving your mail for about a
week now and look forward to seeing more.  I've been doing glass on and off
for about five years, but it's winter here now and I'm not keen on spending
much time in a unheated shed.
Cheers, Ivan
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>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 06:56:21 1996
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From: pwkelly@patrol.i-way.co.uk (Paul Kelly)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Suppliers in New England Region
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:54:31 GMT
Message-ID: <31c66b04.1922531@popmail.i-way.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hello all!

I'm writing to this group on behalf of my wife Alison, a skillful stained glass
artist with several years' experience, a talented musician and teacher, but a
non-starter with PCs!

We are based in north Hampshire in England (Basingstoke to be precise), and in
August this year we will be visiting the USA for a three-week holiday with our 3
year old daughter.

The plan is to tour around parts of New England -- primarily Massachusetts
(eastern), Maine (as far north as Portland), and the southern "halves" of New
Hampshire and Vermont.

We would be delighted to learn about suppliers in the region, particularly those
specialising in books and patterns. A wide variety of glass is available in the
UK, imported from the USA, Germany, etc., so it's not worth the risk trying to
carry sheets home with us!

If there are other places of interest to the stained glass aficionados, such as
museums, workshops open to the public, etc., we'd love to hear about those, too.

Thanking you in anticipation...


Paul Kelly (for Alison)
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 06:56:52 1996
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From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:06:44 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <9606180906.AA08401@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<m0uVrzc-000d3DC@mail.awinc.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> So, thinking that I would try something different, I decided to cut out the
> pattern pieces as described above, then trace around the pieces onto the
> glass using permanent ink.  At least the pen SAYS that it's permanent.
> Again, it all comes down to grinding... the water washes the ink away and
> again I am lost.

I use the permanent versions of overhead projector pens. This seems to stand
up to water reasonably well, but tends to rub off on your fingers instead :-).
It certainly doesn't stay on glass permanently. What I've tried doing is to
buy some clear plastic overhead projector sheets, and then you can:

(a) trace the pattern on and cut out waterproof pattern pieces to compare
against, and

(b) put the pattern (or preferably a copy) under a sheet so you can lay pieces
on the pattern without getting it soggy.

> Ok, this isn't really a frustration.  Well, sort of.... my former instructor
> is planning to teach a class using the Worden (is that correct???) system
> for "dome" lamps in the fall.  I just moved into a new house and desperately
> need to build a lamp for my kitchen nook.  I don't want to wait until the
> fall!!!  Now, she says that I will *need* to take a class.  However, I built
> a panel lamp on my own (with no instruction other than from the pattern
> book), and I have been very successful (in *my* opinion) at teaching myself
> several crafts and other subjects in the past.  I feel confident that I can
> figure out how to follow the pattern, especially if I take my time and am
> extremely careful.  My question is this: what is your opinion?  Should I
> wait for the class, or try it on my own?  If I go on my own, where do I
> purchase the form & patterns from?

Most mail order places should carry them. I'm about to have a go at my
first dome lamp too :-) and decided to go with one of the Odyssey forms
instead of the Worden stuff - the Odyssey stuff is somewhat more expensive,
but looks as though it should be easier to use ("sticking" stuff to a
fibreglass form that has the pattern on looks easier than propping pattern
and glass onto a polystyrene form with pins.


-Jerry


-- 
   _|_
  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 06:56:53 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Corel Draw
Date: 18 Jun 96 05:05:09 EDT
Message-ID: <960618090509_70544.3642_JHD66-3@CompuServe.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Peggy,

Corel 3 is pretty "primitive" and Corel 5 is called "flakey" by many.  Corel 4
is considered "rock solid."  You can usually find it in those mail order
sections in the back of computer magazines.  Just keep calling around.  It's not
being made any longer, so you'll just have to hunt it up.
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:01:17 1996
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From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:54:13 -0600
Message-ID: <199606181354.HAA28755@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi;
        I am self taught so may have some "amatuer" (sp?) answers, but here
is what I do.  Sometimes I do use an indelible marker, yes it sometimes
comes off, but not so often if I make sure that the glass is dry and clean
before marking.  However you have to be careful as patterns tend to enlarge
themselves this way.  Another way is to cover your pattern on both sides
with contact plastic before ou cut it out.  This is especially good if you
think you might be going to use it again.
       I can't help you on the cutter as I have no experience with that type
of cutter, and as to the lamp, although I haven't done that either, my
attitude is that you don't get anywhere if you don't try!  You can still
take the course later if you think you need/want to.  I wouldn't have even
started if I hadn't just dived in, there are no clases here.  Meg in Costa Rica


At 08:59 PM 17/06/1996 -0700, you wrote:
>I am another "newbie" (< 1 year) to glass work, and have a couple of
>frustrations for which I request assitance:
>
>- Pattern Transfer - 
>
>My instructor showed us only one method of pattern transfer: trace the
>pattern onto cardstock, cut it using foil pattern scissors, then attach it
>to the glass using double sided masking tape.  This is fine and dandy when I
>get a nice close cut, but when my cut is bad (see the next frustration!) and
>I have to grind to get down to the correct size/shape, the paper
>disintigrates from the water transfered to the glass and the tape adhesion
>disappears so that I am left with no pattern piece to follow!
>       >So, thinking that I would try something different, I decided to cut
out the>pattern pieces as described above, then trace around the pieces onto the
>glass using permanent ink.  At least the pen SAYS that it's permanent.
>Again, it all comes down to grinding... the water washes the ink away and
>again I am lost.
>
>So, how should I be doing this pattern transfer to glass?  Perhaps my
>grinder is spewing too much water onto the glass?  Do I need a new sponge?
>Or a different type of pen?  Or different paper?  HELP!
>
>
>- Cutting -
>
>I have a Toyo cutter... a "saddle" shape.  When I first purchased it (in
>December) it had MAJOR cutting oil flow onto the glass.  So much so that I
>seemed to leave a small creek behind me as I cut.  My cuts broke very easily
>(nicely).  Somehow or another, over time, my cutter must have become plugged
>because now I do not see ANY oil on the glass, and can't even get any on my
>finger when I roll the cutting disk over it.  I have tried to clean it
>(thinking that there may be small glass shards near the wheel) and I have
>even loosened the top just in case I have an air lock.  Still, this doesn't
>seem to help.  However, if I leave the cutter for several days then return I
>find that it is empty of oil and I must once again fill it.  My glass does
>not break as well as it did, either.
>
>So, being new at this craft, and less sure of myself, I am now afraid to cut
>near the edge of my pattern as I know that I am very likely to break it
>incorrectly and then will require major grinding which goes back to my first
>frustration!  Any suggestions?
>
>
>- Worden Pattern System -
>
>Ok, this isn't really a frustration.  Well, sort of.... my former instructor
>is planning to teach a class using the Worden (is that correct???) system
>for "dome" lamps in the fall.  I just moved into a new house and desperately
>need to build a lamp for my kitchen nook.  I don't want to wait until the
>fall!!!  Now, she says that I will *need* to take a class.  However, I built
>a panel lamp on my own (with no instruction other than from the pattern
>book), and I have been very successful (in *my* opinion) at teaching myself
>several crafts and other subjects in the past.  I feel confident that I can
>figure out how to follow the pattern, especially if I take my time and am
>extremely careful.  My question is this: what is your opinion?  Should I
>wait for the class, or try it on my own?  If I go on my own, where do I
>purchase the form & patterns from?
>
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>=====================================
>Julie M. Thomson - jthomson@awinc.com
>Castlegar, British Columbia, Canada
>=====================================
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:01:19 1996
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From: GCmagazine@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass Library On-Line
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:22:25 -0400
Message-ID: <960618082224_416493077@emout12.mail.aol.com>
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Thank you Stephanie.

gcmagazine
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:01:20 1996
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From: Janet <UURESPES@ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject:      electroplating came
Date:         Tue, 18 Jun 96 07:59:12 EDT
Message-ID: <9606181205.AA19695@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I make alot of 3-D stained glass angels for which lead came is used to wrap
the pieces.  I have seen, in stores, these angels made with silver looking
electroplated came.  The came looks like silver plated.  They are beautiful.
Can anyone provide instruction or leads on how to plate lead came this way?
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:01:58 1996
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <104344.622@CompuServe.COM>
To: "bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re:My frustrations
Date: 18 Jun 96 09:02:56 EDT
Message-ID: <960618130255_104344.622_IHS67-1@CompuServe.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Julie M. Thomson's frustrations:

1) Pattern transfer.
	I was taught to xerox the pattern, cut the xerox using pattern shears,
and glue the pattern pieces using a glue stick.  The type of glue stick I use is
Avery's "Permanent Glue Stic" which comes in nice, easy-to-use plastic tubes.
The glue is not permanent on glass (no matter what the product's name is) and
will wash off in water.  Therefore, it will wash off if you have too much water
spewing from your grinder, or if you didn't cut the glass close enough to the
pattern and end up having to do excessive grinding.  Or if the grinding head on
your grinder has become dull from use and you need to buy a new one to make
grinding faster.

	Another method is to place the glass atop the pattern original, and use a
tracing pen to trace the pattern piece onto the glass.  I use the Pilot Gold
Marker (extra fine point) .  If you let it dry on the glass for 10 minutes or
more, it has a difficult time washing off in the grinder water.  It's a good
alternate method, but I still prefer the cut pattern/glue stick method.

2) Oil in cutter problem.
	Sorry, can't be of help here.  Maybe someone else will jump in.

3) Teach yourself lamp making
	I sincerely hope you can teach yourself lamp shade making, as I am about
to do the same starting today.  I have taught myself lead stained glass work as
well as glass mosaic techniques.  I ask questions from my original copper foil
teacher, constantly read tips & techniques presented in this and other on-line
forums, read through the archives, read books and magazines on techniques and
design principles, and then read through instruction manuals very thoroughly.  I
purchased my lamp shade form and patterns from my local retail stained glass
shop.  In fact, you can purchase lamp shade pattern blanks and make up your own
pattern if you are into original design works.

Good luck...Christie

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:02:24 1996
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From: Rebecca Smith <rwsmith@aristotle.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where and Ed.
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 08:20:40 -0500
Message-ID: <2.2.16.19960618071130.2ff76414@aristotle.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi all:
I am in Little Rock, Ar. 95 degrees average and the air conditioner went
down 4 days ago. Supposed to be fixed today, cross my fingers.

If Ed were to stop by with $1000.00 bucks, I would be like everyone else.
GLASS, GLASS, GLASS, GLASS, GLASS, GLASS, etc. with maybe a few incidentals.

Rebecca Smith (rwsmith@aristotle.net)

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:03:13 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Corel Draw
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 09:33:56 -0400
Message-ID: <31C6B044.3C67@mars.superlink.net>
References: <<Pine.SOL.3.93.960617155717.26851A-100000@spork.callamer.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
> 
> Several weeks ago the group was discussing drawing programs, specifically
> Corel Draw.  I am finding it is difficult to get the software because
> stores do not have it in stock or it is sold out.  Can anyone tell me the
> difference between Corel Draw v. 3, 4, and 5.  I do not have Windows 95 so
> I am unable to consider version 6.  Help!
> 
> Peggy Johnsen
> edupjohn@slonet.org
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


They do still sell all of them.  Corel 3 is the cheapest of all the 
Corel's it has all the basic functions, but you get a good bargain 
because it comes with quite a bit clipart. 4 and 5 are just more 
advanced.  I'd probably recommend Corel 4 at least, it has the ability 
to see what your drawing looks like as you do it, whereas Corel 3 all 
you see is a wire drawing, and then color (as a separate function).  
Check your catalogs, tiger software, PC mall, etc., they should have it.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:03:34 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:01:42 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.6142.0>
References: <<m0uVrzc-000d3DC@mail.awinc.com>>
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Julie M. Thomson wrote:
> 
> I am another "newbie" (< 1 year) to glass work, and have a couple of
> frustrations for which I request assitance:
> 
> - Pattern Transfer -
> 
> My instructor showed us only one method of pattern transfer: trace the
> pattern onto cardstock, cut it using foil pattern scissors, then attach it
> to the glass using double sided masking tape.  This is fine and dandy when I
> get a nice close cut, but when my cut is bad (see the next frustration!) and
> I have to grind to get down to the correct size/shape, the paper
> disintigrates from the water transfered to the glass and the tape adhesion
> disappears so that I am left with no pattern piece to follow!
> 
> So, thinking that I would try something different, I decided to cut out the
> pattern pieces as described above, then trace around the pieces onto the
> glass using permanent ink.  At least the pen SAYS that it's permanent.
> Again, it all comes down to grinding... the water washes the ink away and
> again I am lost.
> 
> So, how should I be doing this pattern transfer to glass?  Perhaps my
> grinder is spewing too much water onto the glass?  Do I need a new sponge?
> Or a different type of pen?  Or different paper?  HELP!
> 
> - Cutting -
> 
> I have a Toyo cutter... a "saddle" shape.  When I first purchased it (in
> December) it had MAJOR cutting oil flow onto the glass.  So much so that I
> seemed to leave a small creek behind me as I cut.  My cuts broke very easily
> (nicely).  Somehow or another, over time, my cutter must have become plugged
> because now I do not see ANY oil on the glass, and can't even get any on my
> finger when I roll the cutting disk over it.  I have tried to clean it
> (thinking that there may be small glass shards near the wheel) and I have
> even loosened the top just in case I have an air lock.  Still, this doesn't
> seem to help.  However, if I leave the cutter for several days then return I
> find that it is empty of oil and I must once again fill it.  My glass does
> not break as well as it did, either.
> 
> So, being new at this craft, and less sure of myself, I am now afraid to cut
> near the edge of my pattern as I know that I am very likely to break it
> incorrectly and then will require major grinding which goes back to my first
> frustration!  Any suggestions?
> 
> - Worden Pattern System -
> 
> Ok, this isn't really a frustration.  Well, sort of.... my former instructor
> is planning to teach a class using the Worden (is that correct???) system
> for "dome" lamps in the fall.  I just moved into a new house and desperately
> need to build a lamp for my kitchen nook.  I don't want to wait until the
> fall!!!  Now, she says that I will *need* to take a class.  However, I built
> a panel lamp on my own (with no instruction other than from the pattern
> book), and I have been very successful (in *my* opinion) at teaching myself
> several crafts and other subjects in the past.  I feel confident that I can
> figure out how to follow the pattern, especially if I take my time and am
> extremely careful.  My question is this: what is your opinion?  Should I
> wait for the class, or try it on my own?  If I go on my own, where do I
> purchase the form & patterns from?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> =====================================
> Julie M. Thomson - jthomson@awinc.com
> Castlegar, British Columbia, Canada
> =====================================
> 
> ----
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OK Pattern transfer:

there are several ways to transfer patterns on glass, first there's the 
method you described above. i really don't like that method because it 
takes extra long to complete a project. also instead of paper try using 
plastic, acetate or something. i use the marker transfer method. if your 
using a Sharpie marker, i found it doesn't bond to the glass very well, 
and when the vibrations and water hits it floats off in chunks. instead 
i use the- Pentel super fine permanent MF50 Japan -for the colors that 
black would be OK on, it writes smoothly and is pretty much grinder 
friendly. for darker colors i use- Pilot gold Ex-Fine -i found the pilot 
paint markers hold up the best, so well in fact it takes acetone at the 
end of a project to wash it off. besides tracing pieces, it's good for 
numbering them as it's difficult to wash off. another method is the 
carbon paper method where you trace the pattern on the glass using 
carbon paper, works well for black and mirror, but you'll still have to 
trace it with another marker. you can get theses makers at PEARL PAINT 
or the like. you grinder, it should have plenty of water. the water will 
keep you bit cool, and your glass, it will also keep the glass powder to 
a minimum. 

Cutting

 as in saddle shape do you mean the one that looks kind of small and 
comes to a T, or the pistol grip one? i found the pistol grip leaks oil 
like crazy. i personally have always used a fletcher-terry, and it has 
never leaked any oil. every so often i will run my finger over the wheel 
to free it up of any glass, until it runs free and smooth and there is 
no crunching.

Lamp Making

Worden is one method the other is the odyssey system. the one your doing 
has sectional Styrofoam molds, where as the other uses a one piece 
plastic dome and is rather expensive. although i don't disagree with the 
instructor, it sounds like he want's more of your money. a panel lamp 
and a dome lamp are too completely different things, many more steps. 
what I'd recommend is do it at home first and then go to a class if 
necessary try building a small lamp first, they have some real cute 
molds out there. get the feel of how it should be cut. when soldering 
the cap be sure and solder the inside of the cap well (it's the most 
important part of the lamp). it might help if you by a video on lamp 
making.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 07:20:49 1996
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X-Path: c031.aone.net.au!Gordon.Newell
From: Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Corel Draw
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 96 00:19:16 +0100
Message-ID: <199606181419.AAA15484@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
References: <<960618090509_70544.3642_JHD66-3@CompuServe.COM>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In <960618090509_70544.3642_JHD66-3@CompuServe.COM>, on 06/18/96 at 05:05
AM,
   "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM> said:


>Peggy,

>Corel 3 is pretty "primitive" and Corel 5 is called "flakey" by many. 
>Corel 4 is considered "rock solid."  You can usually find it in those
>mail order sections in the back of computer magazines.  Just keep calling
>around.  It's not being made any longer, so you'll just have to hunt it
>up.
>                __________________________________________
>                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
>                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
>                __________________________________________

I think you will find that ALL versions of Corel are still selling. Corel
has decided to keep all on the market. Different features/function and of
course . . price!

Corel are on the WWW - somewhere. Try www.corel.com


~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~
Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9221 3958, Mobile: 041 111 6636 
OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)                               
 ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 08:52:48 1996
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X-Path: crosfield.co.uk!jc
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: electroplating came
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:53:06 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <9606181553.AA10318@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<9606181205.AA19695@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> I make alot of 3-D stained glass angels for which lead came is used to wrap
> the pieces.  I have seen, in stores, these angels made with silver looking
> electroplated came.  The came looks like silver plated.  They are beautiful.
> Can anyone provide instruction or leads on how to plate lead came this way?
> 
I believe that some of the solutions used in electroplating are potentially
dangerous - there was a news item over here a few days ago about some cyanide
based tablets going missing. Anyway, it might be simpler to see if you can
find a local plating firm and see how much they'd charge.

Or there used to be some pretty expensive solution that claimed to silver or
gold plate things like cutlery - that might work, but I haven't seen it
advertised recently (and I assume you'd only get a very thin coat).

-Jerry

-- 
   _|_
  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 09:08:24 1996
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From: krmcdonald@ucdavis.edu (Kathe R. McDonald)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 07:10:19 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <199606181410.HAA16971@peseta.ucdavis.edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Julie, I have found metallic gold pens to be helpful. They cost ~$4-5 each
and the "ink" stays on the glass.

Kathe R. McDonald
Office of Curricular Support
"Aint no time to hate." J. Garcia 1995


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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 09:32:15 1996
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From: txh4@po.cwru.edu (Theodore P. Hasenstaub)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:23:40 -0400
Message-ID: <199606181631.MAA08069@cornelius.INS.CWRU.Edu>
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Precedence: bulk

Dear Jerry,

I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. They
come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem is that you
have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can usually find these
marker pens at a stationry supply store.

Ted

>> So, thinking that I would try something different, I decided to cut out the
>> pattern pieces as described above, then trace around the pieces onto the
>> glass using permanent ink.  At least the pen SAYS that it's permanent.
>> Again, it all comes down to grinding... the water washes the ink away and
>> again I am lost.
>
>I use the permanent versions of overhead projector pens. This seems to stand
>up to water reasonably well, but tends to rub off on your fingers instead :-).
>It certainly doesn't stay on glass permanently. What I've tried doing is to
>buy some clear plastic overhead projector sheets, and then you can:
>
>(a) trace the pattern on and cut out waterproof pattern pieces to compare
>against, and
>
>(b) put the pattern (or preferably a copy) under a sheet so you can lay pieces
>on the pattern without getting it soggy.
>
>> Ok, this isn't really a frustration.  Well, sort of.... my former instructor
>> is planning to teach a class using the Worden (is that correct???) system
>> for "dome" lamps in the fall.  I just moved into a new house and desperately
>> need to build a lamp for my kitchen nook.  I don't want to wait until the
>> fall!!!  Now, she says that I will *need* to take a class.  However, I built
>> a panel lamp on my own (with no instruction other than from the pattern
>> book), and I have been very successful (in *my* opinion) at teaching myself
>> several crafts and other subjects in the past.  I feel confident that I can
>> figure out how to follow the pattern, especially if I take my time and am
>> extremely careful.  My question is this: what is your opinion?  Should I
>> wait for the class, or try it on my own?  If I go on my own, where do I
>> purchase the form & patterns from?
>
>Most mail order places should carry them. I'm about to have a go at my
>first dome lamp too :-) and decided to go with one of the Odyssey forms
>instead of the Worden stuff - the Odyssey stuff is somewhat more expensive,
>but looks as though it should be easier to use ("sticking" stuff to a
>fibreglass form that has the pattern on looks easier than propping pattern
>and glass onto a polystyrene form with pins.
>
>
>-Jerry
>
>
>-- 
>   _|_
>  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
>  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
>\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 10:14:11 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 10:10:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.3103.0>
References: <<9606180906.AA08401@crosfield.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Don't give up on using a permanent ink pen to trace your patterns.  I have
tried most and have found the Stabilo brand to stand up nicely.  Also, it
does sound as if you have more water in your grinder than you need.  Try
cuttin down on that.  I gauge the water level by putting the platform on
it and only filling it to the point the waterpump will bring the water up
when using the small grinder head.  Good Luck.
P. Johnsen

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 12:13:31 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: electroplating came
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 15:12:16 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.111216.0>
References: <<9606181205.AA19695@uucp-gw-2.pa.dec.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Janet wrote:
> 
> I make alot of 3-D stained glass angels for which lead came is used to wrap
> the pieces.  I have seen, in stores, these angels made with silver looking
> electroplated came.  The came looks like silver plated.  They are beautiful.
> Can anyone provide instruction or leads on how to plate lead came this way?
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


I wondered that myself, I got a book on electroplating, and as it turns 
out if you have to electroplate solder or lead based things, you need 
cyanide based products.  And when your done plating and exhausted the 
plating solution it is very difficult to get rid of that chemical, I 
needed electroplating done I would hire a professional.  Usually they do 
it in bulk quantities.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 13:14:08 1996
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From: Strain77@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: western US glass shops
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 16:13:50 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.121350.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

A glass shop in Sacramento is just off I-80.  It's where I take glass classes
.  They have lots of glass 
to choose from and are really friendly folks.  The owners are Philip & Hazel.
 The name is Rainbow Bead
and Glass.  From I-80 take the Madison Avenue exit (these directions are
assuming you to be coming in 
from the east heading to San Francisco).  It's about 12 miles before the city
of Sacramento.  Exit to the 
left back over the freeway.  Stay in your right lane.  About three lights up,
at Auburn Blvd, take a right 
onto Auburn Blvd.  Stay in the left lane.  About 2 to 3 more lights down,
between Myrtle & Orangegrove
Ave you'll see the glass shop on the left hand side.  There's a Harley
Davidson Shop right next to it.  If 
you reach the light at Orangegrove Ave, you've gone too far.  Good Luck.  
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 14:19:10 1996
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From: ebsousa@interserv.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 14:18:06 -0700
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Janet,
	If you want to try the lamp on your own go ahead and give it a try! It 
is basicely the same skills as any other project that you have already done. I 
am just finishing my first worden lamp project and I did it on my own. Pretty 
much you are just cutting glass and putting it together. Some things that I 
learned: I would try double sided tape to stick the glass to the form instead of 
pins. I kept finding the pieces moved with just the pins holding them. After 
cutting the pattern pieces put them on the form to be sure the size seems right 
I found that their pattern pieces left a larger space between each piece than I 
liked (probably to leave room for the pins). I don't know if you have a pattern 
in mind already but I know I picked a pattern that had larger and less pieces 
than most of the others thinking it would be easier for my first attempt but I 
discovered that I had trouble positioning the larger pieces on the form. The 
ends kept sticking up which I didn't care for. So my lamp isn't perfect but it 
isn't a disaster either. Don't let anyone tell you that you need to take a class 
or that you aren't ready for any project! It is your willingness to tackle it 
and the effort you are willing to put into it that will determine your success. 
The worst that can happen is that you will have to recut a bunch of pieces. Any 
ways that is my 2 cents worth. Good luck and let us know how your lamp turns 
out.
	Donna S.
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 15:53:36 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 18:44:42 -0400
Message-ID: <199606182251.SAA25418@moltar.cetlink.net>
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----------
> From: ebsousa@interserv.com
> To: Glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: My frustrations
> Date: Tuesday, June 18, 1996 5:18 PM
> 
> Janet,
> 	If you want to try the lamp on your own go ahead and give it a try! It 
> is basicely the same skills as any other project that you have already
done. I 
> am just finishing my first worden lamp project and I did it on my own.
Pretty 
> much you are just cutting glass and putting it together. Some things
that I 
> learned: I would try double sided tape to stick the glass to the form
instead of 
> pins. I kept finding the pieces moved with just the pins holding them.
After 
> cutting the pattern pieces put them on the form to be sure the size
seems right 
> I found that their pattern pieces left a larger space between each piece
than I 
> liked (probably to leave room for the pins). I don't know if you have a
pattern 
> in mind already but I know I picked a pattern that had larger and less
pieces 
> than most of the others thinking it would be easier for my first attempt
but I 
> discovered that I had trouble positioning the larger pieces on the form.
The 
> ends kept sticking up which I didn't care for. So my lamp isn't perfect
but it 
> isn't a disaster either. Don't let anyone tell you that you need to take
a class 
> or that you aren't ready for any project! It is your willingness to
tackle it 
> and the effort you are willing to put into it that will determine your
success. 
> The worst that can happen is that you will have to recut a bunch of
pieces. Any 
> ways that is my 2 cents worth. Good luck and let us know how your lamp
turns 
> out.
> 	Donna S.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> 
  The only thing I can add at this point, is to be very careful when you
start to tack the pieces together. Use the smallest tacks possible using a
minimum of flux. Otherwise, you are taking a chance of damaging your form.
If you have large gaps when starting to fully solder your shade, put
masking tape on the back of the joints, and the solder won't drip through.
Best of luck, and I know you can do it!
    Karl

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 17:58:14 1996
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 17:59:14 1996
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From: artglass@waterw.com (me)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:59:42 -0400
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Ed welome...................

Well I hate to say it but we  pretty much have our ideal studio.

 But if,

I would need about 10,000, sq. feet. The front would be our offices housing
our wonderful design team. With conference rooms and multimedia rooms with
projectors for presentations. All done in some sort of exotic wood paneling.
Maybe teak.<lol>

Ok....oh I forget loads of wonderful carpeting in the reception area with
models and photographs of our installations and just some recent presentations.

Oh I forgot this building would be mostly windows in the front....and upper 
lites all throughout the building.  The rest of the building would house our
inhouse sandblasting room...in this room we have two walk in booths... a few
head respirators...I really don't want to elaborate but the are all eqipped
with super exhaust and vacumning systems. Next,our pull down 20foot x 20
foot light box that comes out of the ceiling. This is used for viewing full
sheet of glass and full panels. And our painting room............
(This is getting better).  We also have an inhouse hot shop located at the
back of the building...this is used for speciality glass...and rondels and
jewels to be fabricated there...also the ability to fabricate sheet glass if
needed.
Along all of the walls are rollers to move panels and doors all are overhead 
able to open to the lot outside that houses our vechicles.
In one large room we have our lite tables...all on wheels.  Also our main
work area has at least four large work table on wheels also with motors for 
turning panels.  We also will have built in exhaust and vacumning sytem. Fan
switchs built into the tables. Oh I forgot the kiln room....with two walk
in, two coffin, and three top load gas and electric kilns.  All run with
this wonderful computer system that controls the whole studio.  In fact
there are two control systems that run the studio...one is a backup.
Supplies....now they go on forever....probably a few dozen crates of Lambert
just for fun.  Some St.Just just because.  With supplies I could go on forever.
I've probably forgotten a few minor details here and there and
I give I could go on but..............until we get that knock on the door
or that commission from some public arts council we have to be happy with
what we have.  And we are blessed.  We have had the opportunity in the last
twenty years to design and fabricate some wonderful works of art that will
be here for centuries.  What a way to leave your make on this earth. <BG>

my best,
pj

May you all have your dream studio someday...or at least something pretty close.

excuse the spelling....i'm on my laptop and have no spellcheck.<lol>

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 19:11:38 1996
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	id m0uWCi0-0000JXa; Tue, 18 Jun 96 19:09 PDT
X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:07:00 -0600
Message-ID: <199606190207.UAA23855@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Sounds great except the exotic wood, it's getting scarce!!!  We need all the
trees alive that we can keep!  Meg in Costa Rica


At 08:59 PM 18/06/1996 -0400, you wrote:
>Ed welome...................
>
>Well I hate to say it but we  pretty much have our ideal studio.
>
> But if,
>
>I would need about 10,000, sq. feet. The front would be our offices housing
>our wonderful design team. With conference rooms and multimedia rooms with
>projectors for presentations. All done in some sort of exotic wood paneling.
>Maybe teak.<lol>
>
>Ok....oh I forget loads of wonderful carpeting in the reception area with
>models and photographs of our installations and just some recent presentations.
>
>Oh I forgot this building would be mostly windows in the front....and upper 
>lites all throughout the building.  The rest of the building would house our
>inhouse sandblasting room...in this room we have two walk in booths... a few
>head respirators...I really don't want to elaborate but the are all eqipped
>with super exhaust and vacumning systems. Next,our pull down 20foot x 20
>foot light box that comes out of the ceiling. This is used for viewing full
>sheet of glass and full panels. And our painting room............
>(This is getting better).  We also have an inhouse hot shop located at the
>back of the building...this is used for speciality glass...and rondels and
>jewels to be fabricated there...also the ability to fabricate sheet glass if
>needed.
>Along all of the walls are rollers to move panels and doors all are overhead 
>able to open to the lot outside that houses our vechicles.
>In one large room we have our lite tables...all on wheels.  Also our main
>work area has at least four large work table on wheels also with motors for 
>turning panels.  We also will have built in exhaust and vacumning sytem. Fan
>switchs built into the tables. Oh I forgot the kiln room....with two walk
>in, two coffin, and three top load gas and electric kilns.  All run with
>this wonderful computer system that controls the whole studio.  In fact
>there are two control systems that run the studio...one is a backup.
>Supplies....now they go on forever....probably a few dozen crates of Lambert
>just for fun.  Some St.Just just because.  With supplies I could go on forever.
>I've probably forgotten a few minor details here and there and
>I give I could go on but..............until we get that knock on the door
>or that commission from some public arts council we have to be happy with
>what we have.  And we are blessed.  We have had the opportunity in the last
>twenty years to design and fabricate some wonderful works of art that will
>be here for centuries.  What a way to leave your make on this earth. <BG>
>
>my best,
>pj
>
>May you all have your dream studio someday...or at least something pretty
close.
>
>excuse the spelling....i'm on my laptop and have no spellcheck.<lol>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 19:11:40 1996
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X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 20:06:39 -0600
Message-ID: <199606190206.UAA23793@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 
Christie:
        I am sure all of us would like to hear what other on-line forums for
glass  are out there!  Meg

I ask questions from my original copper foil
>teacher, constantly read tips & techniques presented in this and other on-line
>forums, read through the archives, read books and magazines on techniques and
>design principles, and then read through instruction manuals very thoroughly.  
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 19:33:17 1996
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X-Path: execpc.com!kshawkey
From: kshawkey@execpc.com (Curt & Karen Shawkey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 21:31:05 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <199606190231.VAA13178@mail.execpc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Janet,
>	If you want to try the lamp on your own go ahead and give it a try! It 
>is basicely the same skills as any other project that you have already done. I 
>am just finishing my first worden lamp project and I did it on my own. Pretty 
>much you are just cutting glass and putting it together. Some things that I 
>learned: I would try double sided tape to stick the glass to the form
instead of 
>pins. I kept finding the pieces moved with just the pins holding them. After 
>cutting the pattern pieces put them on the form to be sure the size seems
right 
>I found that their pattern pieces left a larger space between each piece
than I 
>liked (probably to leave room for the pins). I don't know if you have a
pattern 
>in mind already but I know I picked a pattern that had larger and less pieces 
>than most of the others thinking it would be easier for my first attempt but I 
>discovered that I had trouble positioning the larger pieces on the form. The 
>ends kept sticking up which I didn't care for. So my lamp isn't perfect but it 
>isn't a disaster either. Don't let anyone tell you that you need to take a
class 
>or that you aren't ready for any project! It is your willingness to tackle it 
>and the effort you are willing to put into it that will determine your
success. 
>The worst that can happen is that you will have to recut a bunch of pieces.
Any 
>ways that is my 2 cents worth. Good luck and let us know how your lamp turns 
>out.

I did what you did.  I bought a Worden pattern and a form and followed the
instructions.  They were good instructions and the shade turned out
beautifully.  I was careful to choose one that was less difficult to start
with. I used the pins as the pattern suggested and I thought that worked for
me too.

As far as the question about cutters and oil, I use a pistol grip cutter.  I
have not filled it with oil.  I put some cotton balls in a small jar and
doused them with oil.  I dip my cutter in there every so often.  Works for me.

Karen

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 20:39:15 1996
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X-Path: gnn.com!PhillRoey
From: PhillRoey@gnn.com (Phillip Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Ed, where, and "My frustrations"
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:34:49
Message-ID: <199606190337.XAA06141@mail-e2b-service.gnn.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello from Georgia!  Only $1000?  I'd buy all the exoctic glass that I've 
always wanted to try, but it's too expensive.
	Thanks to Donna, Karl, and Karen for your combined 6 cents worth.  I'm 
starting my first worden lamp (it's a small one, but you have to start 
somewhere) and was wondering why on earth I had decided to do this.  I feel 
more encouraged now.                  -Jerri

p.s.  My husband wants to know how he can get his computer back now that I've 
discoved the glass groups on the board.  Life is so hard.

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 21:37:58 1996
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From: XLBR14A@prodigy.com ( ROBERT A SIGMON)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Frustrations
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 23:59:18, -0500
Message-ID: <199606190359.XAA17344@mime3.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your cutter.  
I use the pistol grip Toyo cutter and it has been nothing but 
excellent.
It does not leave any oil on the glass, so to speak as the amount of 
oil 
needed to send the fissure through the glass is minimal.

The heads on the cutters are replaceable, I would check with your 
supplier
usually they are more than happy to help.


Pattern Cutting

I Always use the Pilot Gold Marker, Always.  It works extremely well 
as long
as you wait for the ink to dry, as others have mentioned.  I just cut 
out the pattern using 
the proper pattern shears and simply trace around the pattern and 
then number it.  
The gold marker shows well on all colors of glass and hangs in for 
cutting, grinding and 
band sawing as necessary ( I use the Taurus ring saw and believe me 
it throws plenty of water.


That my two cents worth,

Bob Sigmon
Plymouth MI
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 22:38:14 1996
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X-Path: direct.ca!kmccullo
From: direct.ca!kmccullo
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Frustrations
Date: Tue Jun 18 22:37:43 1996
Message-ID: <96Jun18.222843-0700pdt.268478-25276+453@aphex.direct.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Yikes, haven't been here for a few days, and lots of mail. Not complaining,
I love it. Appears we have some frustration out there. Go out chop some wood
then go back and look at your cutter. Unscrew the cutter (tip) from the oil
resevoir and then screw it in again, perhaps it was just not attached
properly. The tip should have some bounce to it (there is a tinnie weeny
spring in there) as you put some pressure on the tip as you cut, if not then
it was not correctly installed. Mine also leaves a bit of oil on the glass
but never enough to worry about.

Re; Worden Lamp making. I made 3 lamps before I tried a worden (365 pieces)
the candle. It was one of those projects that you start off very excited &
enthusiastic and then it peters off and you feel 'will I ever finish this',
'why did I start this'. Hang in there ! It takes time and patience, do
something else (smaller projects) then go back to your lamp. It helps if you
bevel the pieces. When all my sections were finished I still have to take
all the sections to my instructer (many years before) to help me out. It
actually took the two of us to put it together, the extra 2 hands really
helped. I always believed that we should have been born octupus. I find more
often that I need extra hands.   

PS. We are 2 days from summer, & I really thought we had it, was even
working on a tan so I would blind every one when I went out with my shorts,
and guess what, it snowed just miles from here. And our mountains are topped
with that white stuff again. Even wearing sweaters in the house again. 
ARE WE IN THE TWILIGHT ZONE ?? Actually I think it's this global warming
that's to blame for all this stupid weather, and not just here. I WANT SOME
SUN!!!

Karin 

>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 22:49:13 1996
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X-Path: direct.ca!kmccullo
From: direct.ca!kmccullo
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Tue Jun 18 22:47:52 1996
Message-ID: <96Jun18.224032-0700pdt.29009-988+1370@orb.direct.ca>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Hello Ivan, and welcome to our lively group, sometimes anyway. Sometimes
we're all just a bunch of old bitties, and on occassion someone will get
their knickers in a knot. But one thing for sure we're all great glass
enthusiasts.

The volcano that blew just recently down there, did it affect you at all ?

You can't possible have winter yet, we still have it here above the 49th
parallel.

Karin.   

>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>>
>
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 18 23:34:32 1996
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X-Path: aol.com!BarbaraBGS
From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: pool lamp pattern
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 02:32:55 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.223255.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Okay - everyone laugh - but I'm about to make a lamp for a pool table.
 Problem is my "client" wants something sort of prairie style - very simple -
two or three colors.  

First problem - does anyone know of a pattern available that may fill the
bill or be adapted to do so.  Dimensions are to be about 42" long and 18"
high.

Second problem - anyone know who makes a glass resembling navy blue opaque.

Thanks.  Barbara BGS
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 00:31:52 1996
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From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 03:30:29 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.233029.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

PJ - Can I come work for you?!?  Love your studio! <g>  Barbara BGS
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 00:35:49 1996
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From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: pool lamp pattern
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 03:35:27 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.233527.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

One other question - Has anyone used that software for designing lamps?  Is
it capable of designing one 42 inches long?  Thanks.  Barbara BGS
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 01:41:39 1996
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From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 03:30:29 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.233029.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

PJ - Can I come work for you?!?  Love your studio! <g>  Barbara BGS
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 01:58:08 1996
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From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: pool lamp pattern
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 03:35:27 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun18.233527.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

One other question - Has anyone used that software for designing lamps?  Is
it capable of designing one 42 inches long?  Thanks.  Barbara BGS
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 02:49:26 1996
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X-Path: crosfield.co.uk!jc
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Pilot markers?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:48:51 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <9606190948.AA13704@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<199606181631.MAA08069@cornelius.INS.CWRU.Edu>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
> water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. They
> come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem is that you
> have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can usually find these
> marker pens at a stationry supply store.
> 
> Ted

Are these the same as the UK ones? metal tube, cylindrical rigid plastic
nib that you push down on to release gold or silver lacquer type paint down
the outside of the nib?

I'd wondered about using those, but I was never sure what that stuff would
do to the grinder head.


-- 
   _|_
  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 03:25:13 1996
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X-Path: nethawk.com!1091
From: 1091@nethawk.com (Sue Eiszler)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: international symposium - curiosity
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 06:24:45 -0500
Message-ID: <v01530501aded919afacd@[206.97.200.59]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>GlassWeekend '97
>at Wheaton Village
>
>This is  THE  weekend  at  Wheaton  Village!    An  international
>symposium and  exhibition of  contemporary glass opened yesterday
>and runs through Sunday, June 15th. If you hadn't already planned
>to make  the trip,  this is  your chance  to change  your  plans.
>Wheaton Village  is at  1501 Glasstown Road, Millville, NJ 08332.
>Call (609) 825-6800 ext.  2733.



Out of curiosity...my paternal grandfather worked in a glass factory in
Millville many many years ago.   My dad was born there and my grandparents
lived in Millville and so we went there lots of times when I was a kid.
Millville was a very small economically depressed town back in the 50-70s.
It is hard to imagine that town as the site of an international symposium.
Does anyone know if the glass factory is still in existence and has the
town grown tremendously?

Sue in 'still raining in Michigan'.  Do glass arks float? <g>

Sue
1091@nethawk.com
susan.eiszler@nethawk.com




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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 04:25:35 1996
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From: txh4@po.cwru.edu (Theodore P. Hasenstaub)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pilot markers?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 07:16:17 -0400
Message-ID: <199606191124.HAA13337@celeste.INS.CWRU.Edu>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerry,

Yes, I think we're talking about the same markers. I've used them for a few
years now and have had no noticable effects to my grinding wheels. The
markers are so good that I usually have to use steel wool to remove any
thats left after grinding.

Ted

>> I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
>> water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. They
>> come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem is that you
>> have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can usually find these
>> marker pens at a stationry supply store.
>> 
>> Ted
>
>Are these the same as the UK ones? metal tube, cylindrical rigid plastic
>nib that you push down on to release gold or silver lacquer type paint down
>the outside of the nib?
>
>I'd wondered about using those, but I was never sure what that stuff would
>do to the grinder head.
>
>
>-- 
>   _|_
>  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
>  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
>\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 05:58:14 1996
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	id m0uWMoV-0000IVa; Wed, 19 Jun 96 05:56 PDT
X-Path: bright.net!joyce
From: Joyce Moran <joyce@bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:55:53 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606191255.IAA11086@brutus.bright.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>
>So, how should I be doing this pattern transfer to glass?  Perhaps my
>grinder is spewing too much water onto the glass?  Do I need a new sponge?
>Or a different type of pen?  Or different paper?  HELP!
>

I teach my student not to use the pattern pieces after the initial tracing
around them with a Sharpie pen.  (I also find that if you let some time go
by between marking and grinding, the Sharpie works fine, or if you must mark
and grind right away, cover the lines with Chapstick.)  I have then grind
once around the piece to get all the sharp edges off.  Then fit against the
surrounding pieces.  Any place that the pieces meet - or where it rocks back
and forth is a place that should be ground.  It doesn't matter if the lines
do wash off because you aren't fitting to the pattern piece, but to the
existing pieces.  Makes for a much tighter fit by not taking too much off.
>
>- Cutting -
Why has no one suggested replacing the cutting head.  It has a wick that
gets dirty as well as the cutting wheel can get dull.  So by replacing the
cutting head, you should get a nice score, and the oil should flow.  If the
oil still doesn't flow, you can pull out a very little bit of the wick and
snip it off so that the oil can flow through.
>
>- Worden Pattern System -
The former instructor wants your business.  She wants you to take her class
and buy your forms and patterns from her.  I have no doubt that you can
learn either Oddesey or Worden, but don't go asking her for advice if you
buy your big $ items from a mail order catalog.  I don't necessarily think
you need to take the class unless you are one of those afraid to do any next
step without someone looking over your shoulder.  But please support your
local stained glass shop.  They invest a lot of time in helping you out, and
you can pay them back by buying from them.

Another small retailer,

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 06:05:32 1996
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X-Path: mars.superlink.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: pool lamp pattern
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:03:20 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.5320.0>
References: <<1996Jun18.223255.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

BarbaraBGS@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Okay - everyone laugh - but I'm about to make a lamp for a pool table.
>  Problem is my "client" wants something sort of prairie style - very simple -
> two or three colors.
> 
> First problem - does anyone know of a pattern available that may fill the
> bill or be adapted to do so.  Dimensions are to be about 42" long and 18"
> high.
> 
> Second problem - anyone know who makes a glass resembling navy blue opaque.
> 
> Thanks.  Barbara BGS
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


worden makes lamp molds for bar or pool style lamps, they come in two 
pieces the side curve and the end curve, with the side curve you can 
make as long as you like.  as for the glass, i have glass from wismach, 
which is a solid blue more dark blue than navy. there is also a color 
made by Kokomo, it's a blue whispy-opalesent that is granite on the 
back. when lit up it looks real nice, it gives a good glow.


---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 06:09:06 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pilot markers?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 09:07:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.572.0>
References: <<9606190948.AA13704@crosfield.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerry Cullingford wrote:
> 
> > I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
> > water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. They
> > come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem is that you
> > have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can usually find these
> > marker pens at a stationry supply store.
> >
> > Ted
> 
> Are these the same as the UK ones? metal tube, cylindrical rigid plastic
> nib that you push down on to release gold or silver lacquer type paint down
> the outside of the nib?
> 
> I'd wondered about using those, but I was never sure what that stuff would
> do to the grinder head.
> 
> --
>    _|_
>   / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
>   \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
> \__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


Yep, same markers, the markers stick to the glass well, wont grind off 
easily, and hold up very nicely.  It's just on the expensive side.  I 
always use gold, it will show up on almost any glass, so it's good if 
you have a bandsaw. silver or white aren't as effective, it blends to 
well with white glass, etc.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 07:07:11 1996
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (me)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: international symposium - curiosity
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:08:38 -0400
Message-ID: <9606191408.AA05579@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Susan, you wrote
>
>
>Out of curiosity...my paternal grandfather worked in a glass factory in
>Millville many many years ago.   My dad was born there and my grandparents
>lived in Millville and so we went there lots of times when I was a kid.
>Millville was a very small economically depressed town back in the 50-70s.
>It is hard to imagine that town as the site of an international symposium.
>Does anyone know if the glass factory is still in existence and has the
>town grown tremendously?

Wheaton village is the site for the glass symposium.  The Creative Glass
Center of American is located there now.  Great facility and hot shop.
Offers apprenticeships a few times a year to outstanding glass artists that
apply.
The usually have about fifty or sixty galleries that exhibit the works of
hundreds of glass artists...Chuhuily (sp?), Patti, Steve Tobin and many.
many others.  Works in price ranges or 40,00o and up Quite a site to see all
that glass in one space.  The also have guest lectures and a full weekend.
The glass factory that produced Wheaton glass...for those who have been in
the business for awhile, a real pain to cut, is not in existance anymore.
If thats the factory you were speaking of.  I kow there also was a factory
that produced other glass and as far as I know its not there either.  The
village itself over the years has been refurbished and is really a delight.
Funding for the New Jersey State Council of the Arts has made alot of things
possible there.

my best,
pj and it is still raining in New Jersey
>
>

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 07:13:38 1996
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X-Path: waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@waterw.com (me)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Is that Ed McMahan at the door?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 10:15:04 -0400
Message-ID: <9606191415.AA05958@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>In a message dated 96-06-17 08:26:44 EDT, you write:
>
><< Now that we have built our dream workspaces....let's dream a little more! 
> Scenario:  Your supplier (hopefully wholesale) had a drawing from their 
> customer list, and your name was drawn to win a $1000 gift certificate.  
> How would you spend it? >>

With my taste a thousand dollars would not go far in glass so I'd probably order
some gold enamel or Hextal...it seems you never have enough or always are
running out.

pj


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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 08:51:50 1996
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X-Path: slonet.org!edupjohn
From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where and Ed.
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:48:52 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.14852.0>
References: <<2.2.16.19960618071130.2ff76414@aristotle.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Rebecca Smith.  Hello from Santa Maria.  I am originally from North
Little Rock and couldn't resist saying hi.  Tell me about your stained
glass efforts.  I only began since moving to California 10 years ago but
once started, I can't seem to find a stopping place...not that I would
want to.  I now teach two classes at Vandenberg AFB every week.  Love it.
Peggy Johnsen
edupjohn@slonet.org

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 08:54:07 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Corel Draw
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 08:51:18 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.15118.0>
References: <<31C6B044.3C67@mars.superlink.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Mike.  Thanks.  I purchased the version 4.  Will look forward to
seeing how it works.  Thanks to everyone who took the time to respond.
P. Johnsen from Santa Maria.

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 09:06:57 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:05:56 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.8556.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello All:

     I just recently finished a 20" Dragonfly, using an Odossey mould.  Let
me assure you that it was, BY FAR, the easiest method of lamp construction!
 I have built an 18" Bamboo shade, using an "inside" mould, an it was tough!!
 The "tacky-wax" method is a little messy, but well worth it.  If you do in
fact decide to use the Odossey system, I have a couple of tips to give you:

     1) Use a light coating of the wax (it adheres amazingly well to the
pieces)

     2) Solder yourself a few "handles" (made of wire) to the outside of the
shade to          aid in removal.

     3) The instructions suggest using a light bulb under the form to loosen
the wax.  Instead, if it is as hot there as it is here in Houston, try
putting the shade in the trunk of your car (on newspaper to catch the melting
wax) for 2-3 hours.

     Just my suggestions, but they worked well for me..


     Michael & Donna
     Shattered Images
     Houston,TX.


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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 09:13:31 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 12:12:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun19.81230.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello All:

     I just recently finished a 20" Dragonfly, using an Odossey mould.  Let
me assure you that it was, BY FAR, the easiest method of lamp construction!
 I have built an 18" Bamboo shade, using an "inside" mould, an it was tough!!
 The "tacky-wax" method is a little messy, but well worth it.  If you do in
fact decide to use the Odossey system, I have a couple of tips to give you:

     1) Use a light coating of the wax (it adheres amazingly well to the
pieces)

     2) Solder yourself a few "handles" (made of wire) to the outside of the
shade to          aid in removal.

     3) The instructions suggest using a light bulb under the form to loosen
the wax.  Instead, if it is as hot there as it is here in Houston, try
putting the shade in the trunk of your car (on newspaper to catch the melting
wax) for 2-3 hours.

     Just my suggestions, but they worked well for me..


     Michael & Donna
     Shattered Images
     Houston,TX.


----
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 09:32:24 1996
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X-Path: light.lightlink.com!sharrow
From: "Ray Sharrow" <Ray.Sharrow@lightlink.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: candle-powered buildings
Summary: Authenticated sender is <sharrow@[205.232.34.1]>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 1996 12:05:20 +0000
Message-ID: <199606191631.MAA11094@light.lightlink.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I've been lurking here for a couple of months; have been working w/ glass since
Jan. '96. Has anyone built and used any of the "Mini Mansions" patterns with
CANDLES? They are very nicely designed to accomodate electric lights, but a
friend would like me to make a house and/or lighthouse for her to use candlelight.
If anyone has ideas on candle-powered buildings, I would be very appreciative.


 


************************************************
** ALL CATEGORICAL STATEMENTS ARE FALSE. **
************************************************
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 13:15:43 1996
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From: "KARL L. PREISACH" <karlp@cetlink.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: candle-powered buildings
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:12:00 -0400
Message-ID: <199606192015.QAA10858@moltar.cetlink.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



----------
> From: Ray Sharrow
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: candle-powered buildings
> Date: Tuesday, June 18, 1996 8:05 AM
> 
> I've been lurking here for a couple of months; have been working w/
glass since
> Jan. '96. Has anyone built and used any of the "Mini Mansions" patterns
with
> CANDLES? They are very nicely designed to accomodate electric lights,
but a
> friend would like me to make a house and/or lighthouse for her to use
candlelight.
> If anyone has ideas on candle-powered buildings, I would be very
appreciative.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
> ************************************************
> ** ALL CATEGORICAL STATEMENTS ARE FALSE. **
> ************************************************
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> 
Ray,
     Delphi Stained Glass sells about seven miniature house kits that are
designed to use either an electric lamp or a candle. The roofs of the
houses are open, allowing the heat from a candle to escape. I have built
three of them so far, and they really turned out nice. My wife won't leave
me rest until the complete "village" is completed. Maybe by Christmas.
Hope this helps you. These kits are very easy to build, and come with
everything you need but the glass.
             Karl

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 13:23:27 1996
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X-Path: voyager.net!delphigl
From: delphigl@voyager.net (Delphi Stained Glass)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: candle-powered buildings
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 15:10:00 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199606191910.PAA19877@vixa.voyager.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I've been lurking here for a couple of months; have been working w/ glass since
>Jan. '96. Has anyone built and used any of the "Mini Mansions" patterns with
>CANDLES? They are very nicely designed to accomodate electric lights, but a
>friend would like me to make a house and/or lighthouse for her to use
candlelight.
>If anyone has ideas on candle-powered buildings, I would be very appreciative.

I would be more inclined to use candles in the filigree house kits by
Deelightful Heirlooms, because the tops are left open and allow the heat to
escape and are naturally more like candle shelters.  These kits contain the
glass pattern along with the filigree which adds more intricate details to
the design.  All that is needed is to use a candle in a candlecup.

I have made several of the houses in the "Mini Mansions" book, and they are
absolutely beautiful!  Lots of little pieces, but well worth the end result. 

Stephanie 

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 13:48:00 1996
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X-Path: nethawk.com!1091
From: 1091@nethawk.com (Sue Eiszler)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: candle-powered buildings
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 16:48:18 -0500
Message-ID: <v01530500adee23f83c86@[206.97.200.59]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I've been lurking here for a couple of months; have been working w/ glass since
>Jan. '96. Has anyone built and used any of the "Mini Mansions" patterns with
>CANDLES? They are very nicely designed to accomodate electric lights, but a
>friend would like me to make a house and/or lighthouse for her to use
>candlelight.
>If anyone has ideas on candle-powered buildings, I would be very appreciative.
>
I just finished the large lighthouse.  You will need to leave some kind of
opening at the top for heat escape for any of the houses or either
lighthouse if you are going to use candlelight.

I was very disappointed with the lighting of the large lighthouse.  The
baselight simply does not reach the top of the thing and thus the part that
should light up is dark.  I was thinking of using hinge tubing with
flashlight wire but it would be impossible to change a lightbulb even if I
got it to light up there.  So  I decided to leave it as is.

Sue
1091@nethawk.com
susan.eiszler@nethawk.com




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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 17:07:03 1996
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From: Steve Adams <sadams@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: candle-powered buildings
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 19:38:03 -0400
Message-ID: <31C88F5B.555D@voicenet.com>
References: <<v01530500adee23f83c86@[206.97.200.59]>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> I just finished the large lighthouse.  You will need to leave some kind of
> opening at the top for heat escape for any of the houses or either
> lighthouse if you are going to use candlelight.
> 
> I was very disappointed with the lighting of the large lighthouse.  The
> baselight simply does not reach the top of the thing and thus the part that
> should light up is dark.  I was thinking of using hinge tubing with
> flashlight wire but it would be impossible to change a lightbulb even if I
> got it to light up there.  So  I decided to leave it as is.

Hi Sue,

I too made the large lighthouse in the Mini Mansion book.  To fix the problem of the 
light not getting to the top of the lighthouse, I installed a "socket pocket".  It's a 
metal bar with a round ring at the end that you solder to the inside of the base.  The 
light is then attached to the installed ring and the light goes where you want it to go. 
I got the socket pocket at my local stained glass store a few months ago, and at the 
time, they were brand new.  I don't recall ever seeing them anywhere else so you may 
have to check around if you're interested.  One more thing to make your lighthouse neat: 
You may want to put a round mirror in the top of the lighthouse to reflect the light 
from the inside bulb to shine through the top window of the lighthouse... It's a neat 
effect.  The next one I try, I may rig the mirror up somehow to rotate when you spin a 
wire at the top or something.

Good Luck,
Steve
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 17:36:08 1996
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From: "H. Taylor Buckner" <taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:34:51 -0400
Message-ID: <199606200034.UAA09828@smtp1.sympatico.ca>
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subscribe
H. Taylor Buckner 
B.Sc., D.S.A., M.A., M.B.A., Ph.D.
Consulting Sociologist
2015 Gingras
Brigham, Quebec, Canada J0E 1J0
Phone and Fax (514) 293-4835
e-mail taylor_buckner@sympatico.ca

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 19:42:25 1996
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	id m0uWZgs-00001va; Wed, 19 Jun 96 19:41 PDT
X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: subject
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:39:11 -0600
Message-ID: <199606200239.UAA09101@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am on several "lines" or forums, and my husband is also (one on bats) and
it takes me awhile everyday to sort out the different ones.  A home
education one which I am on is very nice in that the subject line is
(home-ed) re:.......
so I can immediately sort those out.  Is there any way glass-line can do the
same?  Thanks, Meg

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 19:43:00 1996
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X-Path: sol.racsa.co.cr!rlaval
From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pilot markers?
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 1996 20:39:01 -0600
Message-ID: <199606200239.UAA09082@sol.racsa.co.cr>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I  don't know what Jerry's are, but here in Costa Rica we get Pilot
indelible markers which work fairly well, but it isn't paint or lacquer, it
is just permanent (sort of) ink.  I some times have to clean with Alchohol
to get it off.  They use them for markering prices of merchendise on plastic
bags here, and they are actually refillable.  The only problem is very dark
glass, as the inks available are green, black, blue, and red. Meg

At 10:48 AM 19/06/1996 +0100, you wrote:
>> I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
>> water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. They
>> come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem is that you
>> have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can usually find these
>> marker pens at a stationry supply store.
>> 
>> Ted
>
>Are these the same as the UK ones? metal tube, cylindrical rigid plastic
>nib that you push down on to release gold or silver lacquer type paint down
>the outside of the nib?
>
>I'd wondered about using those, but I was never sure what that stuff would
>do to the grinder head.
>
>
>-- 
>   _|_
>  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
>  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
>\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

******************************************
Richard and Meg Laval
Monteverde, Costa Rica

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 19 22:18:43 1996
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	id m0uWc8E-0000G0a; Wed, 19 Jun 96 22:18 PDT
X-Path: whanganui.ac.nz!iweal
From: iweal@whanganui.ac.nz (Ivan Weal)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: where is everybody?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:15:25 +1200
Message-ID: <199606200515.RAA02190@nethost.whanganui.ac.nz>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mother Universe is definitely flexing her muscles and it's quite
spectacular. Can see Mt Ruapehu with the naked eye from here on a clear day
(about an hour away by car). Unfortunately the wind has changed today and
we're getting the ash (quite acidic) but makes for brilliant sunrise with
graduated red sky.
It's definitely winter, shortest day tomorrow...

>>Hello Ivan, and welcome to our lively group, sometimes anyway. Sometimes
>we're all just a bunch of old bitties, and on occassion someone will get
>their knickers in a knot. But one thing for sure we're all great glass
>enthusiasts.
>
>The volcano that blew just recently down there, did it affect you at all ?
>
>You can't possible have winter yet, we still have it here above the 49th
>parallel.
>
>Karin.   
>
>>>----
>>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>>
>>>
>>
>>----
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>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>>
>
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 02:37:02 1996
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X-Path: crosfield.co.uk!jc
From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: subject
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 10:36:30 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <9606200936.AA18850@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<199606200239.UAA09101@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> I am on several "lines" or forums, and my husband is also (one on bats) and
> it takes me awhile everyday to sort out the different ones.  A home
> education one which I am on is very nice in that the subject line is
> (home-ed) re:.......
> so I can immediately sort those out.  Is there any way glass-line can do the
> same?  Thanks, Meg

One possibility for people using unix systems to read their mail is to look
at mail filters - I use a mail reader called 'elm', and I've set things up
so that mail from the three mailing lists I'm on gets stored automatically
in seperate folders. You may be able to find something similar for other
platforms. If anyone wants to know how to set up the unix/elm version, I
can dig the info out :-).


-- 
   _|_
  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 09:13:23 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 12:13:25 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun20.81325.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello All:

     I just recently finished a 20" Dragonfly, using an Odossey mould.  Let
me assure you that it was, BY FAR, the easiest method of lamp construction!
 I have built an 18" Bamboo shade, using an "inside" mould, an it was tough!!
 The "tacky-wax" method is a little messy, but well worth it.  If you do in
fact decide to use the Odossey system, I have a couple of tips to give you:

     1) Use a light coating of the wax (it adheres amazingly well to the
pieces)

     2) Solder yourself a few "handles" (made of wire) to the outside of the
shade to          aid in removal.

     3) The instructions suggest using a light bulb under the form to loosen
the wax.  Instead, if it is as hot there as it is here in Houston, try
putting the shade in the trunk of your car (on newspaper to catch the melting
wax) for 2-3 hours.

     Just my suggestions, but they worked well for me..


     Michael & Donna
     Shattered Images
     Houston,TX.


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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 14:40:00 1996
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From: Qweenb@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 17:39:09 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun20.13399.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

For all of my lamp shades so far (3 complete, 1 in progress), I have used a
product called Glass Tack.  The owner of the shop where I buy supplies sells
it.  It is a blue rubber substance, similar to the stuff you use to stick
posters to the wall,  but much better.  This stuff really holds the glass
well.  No one in her shop uses Tacky Wax or pins for lamp making.  You pinch
off little ball of this stuff stick it to the mold and then push your glass
piece to it.  To release the shade from the mold after soldering I get out my
hair blow dryer ,  warm up the glass a little and pull it off the mold.  The
great thing about this stuff is that it is then reuseable.  The bits and
pieces that stick to the glass and mold are pulled off similar to bubble gum
 -it sticks to itself.  You roll it back into a ball, put it in a zip lock
bag or container and use it again when your ready to do another project.  And
it's cheap, a couple of dollars for a package, and you need anywhere from 1
to 2 packages to do a lamp, depending on the size of the shade.  I'm not sure
what industry this product is made for, but if you are interested in giving
it a try, call Sherry at "I Love Stained Glass", in Hayward, CA  (510)
537-6270.  She will be glad to either send you some, or let you know where
you can get it.

I hope this helps.

Bonnie
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 18:10:52 1996
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From: MPGP79B@prodigy.com (PEGGY M PALM)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: subject
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 20:58:11, -0500
Message-ID: <199606210058.UAA29398@mime2.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Meg suggests:

> education one which I am on is very nice in that the subject line is
> (home-ed) re:.......
> so I can immediately sort those out.  Is there any way glass-line can
do
> the same? 

Depending on the mail program you use, you may be able to do that with
this list as is.  Some mail programs offer an option of filing messages
by the content of the message (message text) as well as by subject line
or by sender.  

The glass list ends each post with instructions on subscribing, etc. 
If possible, set your email program to sort out messages with the
message text:

For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com

Voila!  Instant organization...   

Hope this makes sense.  I can go into minute detail by private email if
you would like.  ;-)       Peggy
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 21:20:16 1996
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X-Path: sagelink.com!pkelly
From: Patrick E Kelly <pkelly@sagelink.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Corel Draw
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 23:23:44 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun20.162344.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BB5EFF.A89AA880
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have taught CorelDraw for the past 6 years. If you don't have Win95 =
you can not use CorelDraw6. CorelDraw 5 is an excellent program and the =
price is coming down rapidly. Not knowing what type of computer you have =
it is difficult to judge which version to suggest, however all the =
CorelDraw programs operate under Windows 3.11 (except CorelDraw6). Send =
me an E-Mail and I can give you more informationl.

Pat Kelly=20
pkelly@sagelink.net

----------
From: 	M. Savad[SMTP:morn@mars.superlink.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, June 18, 1996 6:33 AM
To: 	glass@bungi.com
Subject: 	Re: Corel Draw

Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
>=20
> Several weeks ago the group was discussing drawing programs, =
specifically
> Corel Draw.  I am finding it is difficult to get the software because
> stores do not have it in stock or it is sold out.  Can anyone tell me =
the
> difference between Corel Draw v. 3, 4, and 5.  I do not have Windows =
95 so
> I am unable to consider version 6.  Help!
>=20
> Peggy Johnsen
> edupjohn@slonet.org
>=20
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


They do still sell all of them.  Corel 3 is the cheapest of all the=20
Corel's it has all the basic functions, but you get a good bargain=20
because it comes with quite a bit clipart. 4 and 5 are just more=20
advanced.  I'd probably recommend Corel 4 at least, it has the ability=20
to see what your drawing looks like as you do it, whereas Corel 3 all=20
you see is a wire drawing, and then color (as a separate function). =20
Check your catalogs, tiger software, PC mall, etc., they should have it.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 22:15:57 1996
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	id m0uWyYe-0000EOa; Thu, 20 Jun 96 22:15 PDT
X-Path: aol.com!Guitarshop
From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Corel Draw
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 01:15:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun20.211530.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello:

     I just recently purchased Draw6.0.  So far, I love it.  I just finished
doing some custom designs for a client.  Having not ever used Draw before, I
found 6.0 to be very user friendly.  It does take up ALOT of H.D. space
(160-180mgs), and is terribly slow comming up (even on a P-133 / 16mgs ram /
2mg P.C.I. Video)..  I am interested to know about any "Patches" that may be
available for 6.0.

Thanks,

Michael.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 20 22:42:38 1996
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Received: by daver.bungi.com (Smail3.1.28.1 #6)
	id m0uWyyu-0000OSa; Thu, 20 Jun 96 22:42 PDT
X-Path: ix.netcom.com!vnunit1
From: vnunit1@ix.netcom.com (RICK D VAUGHN)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Pilot markers?
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 1996 22:42:00 -0700
Message-ID: <199606210542.WAA09453@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You wrote: 
 I've had the same problems your experiening with markers coming off in
water. I have now solved that problem by using markers made by PILOT. 
They come in gold and silver with a very fine point. The only problem 
is that you have to keep them capped tight or they dry out. You can 
usually find these marker pens at a stationry supply store.

We use these pens almost exclusively with great results and no 
noticable damage to the grinder heads.  They are also nice for detail 
"painting" on the glass in silver or gold.  The other trick that we use 
to keep the marker from lifting off the glass when grinding or using 
the glass saw is to allow the marker lines to dry and then give them a 
light coating with chapstick. This seals the marks on the glass.  Good 
Luck!
Teresa V
Color It Glass! 
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 07:52:48 1996
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From: Theresa Jordan <birds@evansville.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Postscript to safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:12:19 -0500
Message-ID: <31CA5963.3AD2@evansville.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Also, can anyone tell me a ballpark figure of approximately how much it 
will cost for the tools and stuff I will need to get started?

Would it be okay to use a Dremel tool for sanding the edges of the glass 
if they need it after being cut, or should I buy a tool recommended 
especially for this?

I do have a workshop, and my husband has his own business, so I'm sure 
he will have some of the tools already.........
(hope I don't sound too much like an idiot!)  <G>

Theresa
birds@evansville.net
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 07:53:10 1996
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From: Theresa Jordan <birds@evansville.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 03:08:39 -0500
Message-ID: <31CA5887.586C@evansville.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi everybody----I've been reading (for hours!) <g>   some of the 
archived messages from your board.....you all sound like really nice 
people!  
As a newbie, and I DO MEAN NEWBIE! (I haven't done any stained glass 
yet!) I have just a couple questions.....I have been reading with great 
interest for the past few weeks everything I can find on the net about 
stained glass, and am going to the library tomorrow.............I love 
crafts, and wanted to do something that not EVERYBODY is doing.......

1)  is this something that would be safe for kids to do with an adult?
My daughter is 8, and LOVES crafts of any kind.....I think she would 
really enjoy this, if it is safe for her to do?

2) Would anyone be willing to share a few patterns for suncatchers? or 
tell me where I could find them?

3) Any suggestions/recommendations on books to buy on how to get 
started, and what tools I will need?  Need something easy to follow that 
takes you by the hand and shows you how to do it! <G>

4) Would love to see some work done by any of you---checked out Glenna's 
page, and was very impressed!, but there aren't a lot of pix on the web 
showing stained glass....there are some, but not a lot.......I think 
I've seen most of them!  

Anyway, thanks in advance for your help, and now I'm going back to your 
archives to learn some more!  (You have great info there!)

Theresa
birds@evansville.net
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 07:57:40 1996
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From: 1091@nethawk.com (Sue Eiszler)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: My frustrations
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 06:09:10 -0500
Message-ID: <v01530500adf0328b8361@[206.97.200.45]>
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Precedence: bulk

>For all of my lamp shades so far (3 complete, 1 in progress), I have used a
>product called Glass Tack.  The owner of the shop where I buy supplies sells
>
You can get Glass Tack in almost any store that sells school supplies or
office supplies.  Since I live in a university town, I see it packaged
mainly for college students - they can hang posters, etc. on walls without
leaving a permanent mark.

Sue
1091@nethawk.com
susan.eiszler@nethawk.com




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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 08:30:39 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:29:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun21.7295.0>
References: <<31CA5887.586C@evansville.net>>
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Precedence: bulk

Theresa Jordan wrote:
> 
> Hi everybody----I've been reading (for hours!) <g>   some of the
> archived messages from your board.....you all sound like really nice
> people!
> As a newbie, and I DO MEAN NEWBIE! (I haven't done any stained glass
> yet!) I have just a couple questions.....I have been reading with great
> interest for the past few weeks everything I can find on the net about
> stained glass, and am going to the library tomorrow.............I love
> crafts, and wanted to do something that not EVERYBODY is doing.......
> 
> 1)  is this something that would be safe for kids to do with an adult?
> My daughter is 8, and LOVES crafts of any kind.....I think she would
> really enjoy this, if it is safe for her to do?
> 
> 2) Would anyone be willing to share a few patterns for suncatchers? or
> tell me where I could find them?
> 
> 3) Any suggestions/recommendations on books to buy on how to get
> started, and what tools I will need?  Need something easy to follow that
> takes you by the hand and shows you how to do it! <G>
> 
> 4) Would love to see some work done by any of you---checked out Glenna's
> page, and was very impressed!, but there aren't a lot of pix on the web
> showing stained glass....there are some, but not a lot.......I think
> I've seen most of them!
> 
> Anyway, thanks in advance for your help, and now I'm going back to your
> archives to learn some more!  (You have great info there!)
> 
> Theresa
> birds@evansville.net
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


as far as the question is safe for kids, well when i first started i 
around 9. she may have trouble putting enough pressure on the glass to 
score it. and of course you'll both get cut, though she may not like it 
as much. what i would do if i were you is to take a night class for 
yourself, and if your lucky there maybe a class in your area that may 
teach stained glass to kids, though she may have to wait a few years. in 
the mean time, she could help foil (providing you grind the glass), pick 
colors, help pick or draw a design, etc. but first you should know what 
your doing, before you teach her. now there are books and videos on how 
to learn but going to a class is really the best thing.

---Mike Savad

p.s. if your curious I've been doing stained glass for 14 years now.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 08:31:14 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:30:13 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun21.73013.0>
References: <<31CA5887.586C@evansville.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Theresa,

I'll answer to safety.

If you look up the archives, I spouted off about safety regarding 
teaching a class about three or four weeks ago.  In a former life I was 
an OSHA trainer, I guess it's in my blood.<g>

Stained glass is safe for a MATURE child.  Knowledge and RESPECT for the 
hazards of any activity is how to prevent injury.  My basic precautions 
are:
1.) Cut glass is sharp (duh!) ALWAYS wear shoes (not sandals).  Handle 
glass gingerly.  A child must wear eye protection (actually, we all 
should) to prevent flying glass from injuring an eye, either during 
cutting or grinding.  Use a cutting srface that can catch glass 
splinters.

2.) Lead is toxic, more so for children.  NEVER eat or drink in the 
shop/studio/work area.  ALWAYS and FREQUENTLY wash hands. (I would 
recommend that a child wash hands every 15-20 minutes when handling 
lead.)  ALWAYS use some form of lead fume protection, either a mask or a 
filter/fan.  Lead is primarily an ingestion hazard.

3.) Flux and patina can burn.  Patina can also stain your skin, more of 
a nuisance than a hazard.  Use caution when applying flux. Use gloves 
(and remove rings) when using patina.

4.) In general, keep the work space clean.  Do not finish without 
cleaning the work area.  Do not start working until the work area is 
clean.

That's my simple advice.

Matt McDonnell

-- 
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   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 08:47:51 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Postscript to safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 11:47:09 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun21.7479.0>
References: <<31CA5963.3AD2@evansville.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Satined Glass
Precedence: bulk

Theresa Jordan wrote:
> 
> Also, can anyone tell me a ballpark figure of approximately how much it
> will cost for the tools and stuff I will need to get started?
> 
> Would it be okay to use a Dremel tool for sanding the edges of the glass
> if they need it after being cut, or should I buy a tool recommended
> especially for this?
> 
> I do have a workshop, and my husband has his own business, so I'm sure
> he will have some of the tools already.........
> (hope I don't sound too much like an idiot!)  <G>
> 
> Theresa
> birds@evansville.net

Be careful!  Workshop tools may LOOK the same, but they are not.  I 
would recommend purchasing equipment made specifically for glass.  

When we started a couple of years ago,  we bought a grinder ($80), 
oil-filled cutter ($29), grozier pliers ($10), Soldering iron ($80 - I 
recommend an Ungar 80-watt,  although a some of the Wellers are OK and 
less expensive) and of course glass, solder, flux, flux brushes, copper 
foil tape, patina and polish.  All for a grand total of about $300.  
We've grown considerably since then.

When you go to a supply shop (I'd recommend that over shoping via 
catalog the first time out), ask for help.  If your not committed to 
making this a long term pasttime, you may wish to consider some less 
expensive options.

Good luck!

Matt McDonnell

-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 11:50:08 1996
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From: Marissa Toghyani <marissat@atlas.na.informix.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 13:50:39 -0700
Message-ID: <199606211851.NAA06645@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>
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At 03:08 AM 6/21/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>1)  is this something that would be safe for kids to do with an adult?
>My daughter is 8, and LOVES crafts of any kind.....I think she would 
>really enjoy this, if it is safe for her to do?
>

Just a few weeks ago while I was grinding I bent my head around the face
shield to get a better look and a few glass fragments flew into my eye.  I
was very, very lucky that no serious damage was done to my eye.  I wear soft
contacts and the glass did not penetrate the contact, although I did have
irritation to my eyelid from blinking before I washed the glass out.  Please
be careful and be sure your daughter wears safety glasses when grinding.

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 12:04:15 1996
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To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 96 15:02:40 EDT
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Unsubscribe please.

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 15:07:48 1996
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From: ebsousa@interserv.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Subject: Safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 15:06:27 -0700
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As far as the lead hazard for your daughter, If she is going to solder 
(soldering iron is another hazard in itself but it can be dealt with, with 
proper supervision) I would recomend lead free solder.  Another option is glass 
mosaic which involves gluing the glass to a sheet of clear glass and filling the 
spaces with grout. I think the first step for your self  is to look in your 
phone book for your local stained retailer he/she will have everything you need 
along with pattern books,tools, how to books. If you don't have a retailer 
nearby, there are mail order catalogs that will have how-to books and videos.I 
don't have the addresses handy but I know several have web pages.Try searching 
for Glass Crafters, Delphi, or Whittmore-Durgin. I am sure there are more, I 
just happen to know these names. Good Luck.
	Donna S.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 16:08:04 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Postscript to safe for kids?
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 19:06:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun21.15640.0>
References: <<31CA5963.3AD2@evansville.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Theresa Jordan wrote:
> 
> Also, can anyone tell me a ballpark figure of approximately how much it
> will cost for the tools and stuff I will need to get started?
> 
> Would it be okay to use a Dremel tool for sanding the edges of the glass
> if they need it after being cut, or should I buy a tool recommended
> especially for this?
> 
> I do have a workshop, and my husband has his own business, so I'm sure
> he will have some of the tools already.........
> (hope I don't sound too much like an idiot!)  <G>
> 
> Theresa
> birds@evansville.net
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


a dremel tool is a good tool to have in the shop, it's good for buffing, 
grinding metal, etc. however it should not be used for glass, a glass 
grinder should be used instead, and be sure to fill it with water. here 
are the reasons why you shouldn't use dremel-->

1. Glass powder is any good for you lungs, eyes, etc.
2. Glass may overheat and crack.
3. The piece of glass your holding may fly out of your hand.
4. You may slip and grind your hand.
5. It wouldn't be very efficient.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 21 19:25:34 1996
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From: IMN2GLASS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: candle-powered buildings
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 1996 22:25:25 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun21.182525.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 96-06-19 16:48:52 EDT, you write:

<<  was very disappointed with the lighting of the large lighthouse.  The
 baselight simply does not reach the top of the thing and thus the part that
 should light up is dark.  I was thinking of using hinge tubing with
 flashlight wire but it would be impossible to change a lightbulb even if I
 got it to light up there.  So  I decided to leave it as is.
  >>
I have made a few of the lighthouses and if you really want them to light up
the way a lighthouse lights, you need to buy battery powered christmas
lights.  I think either glass crafters or Delphi sells them.  You can even
use a flashing light for a realistic effect.  It also makes it easier to use
as a center piece as there are no plugs and cords to worry about.  

Janet F.
IMN2GLASS@aol.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 22 18:43:49 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: safe for kids?
Date: 22 Jun 96 21:41:39 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun23.14139.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



I read some of the posts about starting an eight-year-old out in stained 
glass.  I have to say that this is too young unless she can learn with 
lead-free solder in a classroom that has good safety equipment and a 
ventilation system to draw flux and patina emissions away from the work, a 
grinding system that doesn't release inhalable glass dust or mist into the 
air, and a teacher that will insist on each child wearing safety glasses at 
all times and who knows simple first aid and bloodborne pathogens practice 
for the inevitable cuts.

A suggestion to wear a mask for protection is, of course, not proper for an 
eight year old.  It adds breathing stress, is not likely to fit properly, and 
can't be fit tested.

Some patina emissions are highly toxic.  That plain old rotten egg odor 
(hydrogen sulfide gas) is highly toxic and can cause neurological problems.  
I found a patina the other day that releases highly toxic tellurium 
chloride.  There must be ventilation.

ANd of course, lead is out.  The Centers for Disease Control surveys have 
shown that a significant number of children are already walking around with 
enough lead in their blood from environmental sources to be losing mental 
acuity.  At 10 micrograms/deciliter and below, they have demonstrated that 
kids lose IQ points.  Although they haven't studied them, adults probably 
lose IQ points at this level, too.

Explains a lot to me!


Monona Rossol,
industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson St., #23
NYC 10012  

212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Sat Jun 22 20:37:17 1996
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From: cgs <2cgs@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 23:35:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun22.193558.0>
References: <<1996Jun23.14139.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Monona Rossol wrote:
> 
> I read some of the posts about starting an eight-year-old out in stained
> glass.  I have to say that this is too young unless she can learn with
> lead-free solder in a classroom that has good safety equipment and a
> ventilation system to draw flux and patina emissions away from the work, a
> grinding system that doesn't release inhalable glass dust or mist into the
> air, and a teacher that will insist on each child wearing safety glasses at
> all times and who knows simple first aid and bloodborne pathogens practice
> for the inevitable cuts.
> 
> A suggestion to wear a mask for protection is, of course, not proper for an
> eight year old.  It adds breathing stress, is not likely to fit properly, and
> can't be fit tested.
> 

Great analysis and good sound advice!

CHUCK
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 22 21:40:57 1996
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From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Soldering
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 1996 21:48:52 -0600
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960623034852.00680d80@mail.netzone.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

              Hello Gang,   Thank you all for your previous hints and
comments ref: light box and cutting/foiling/soldering.  Appreciate all of
you who took the time to comment.  One thing I learned is there are may
different ways to get the same results.  
I have almost finished the cutting/foiling of my 18" octoganal hummingbird.
When I get ready to foil do I flat solder the entire project and then go
over it and bead it up.    Or do I flat solder a small section and then bead
it up..working a section at a time??
Thanks for your advice.. a step at a time..

Lorley from Phoenix




Dispatchers Save Seconds..Seconds Save Lives

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 05:48:54 1996
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From: Andrea King <aking@source.com.au>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: General
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 22:47:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun23.154734.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi to all,

I haven't posted for a while but read my mail daily to keep up with everyone.

A note to Theresa about teaching glass work to your 8 year old daughter. I think Mike 
Savad summed up my views very well and I would like to emphasise the safety aspect as 
well.  Glass is not something that is forgiving not to mention solder fumes, flux, lead 
and of course the soldering iron.  As adults we brush off a 'bite' from the glass or a 
jolt from hot solder but my view is that a child could be put off the wonderful 
experience of glass work because of such happenings, and that would be a shame.  

No matter how careful you try to be things can still happen as I found out a week ago. I 
had a lapse in concentration or was just moving too fast and as I went to get hold of a 
score to break it I clipped the top of my right forefinger into the corner of the glass 
and ended up with 4 stitches.  No problems for me, thankfully, just inconvenience but 
could have been worse.

Andrea

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 06:43:25 1996
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From: Mike & Jodi Hensley <hensley@server.northernnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Soldering
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 08:42:44 -0500 (CDT)
Message-ID: <199606231342.IAA28941@northernnet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Lorley.
I flat solder one whole side and then bead solder both sides.  i know some
people who flat solder both sides and then bead solder both.  i find flat
soldering the second side to be unnecessary unless you have gaps between
your pieces.

Jodi in Minnesota

At 09:48 PM 6/22/96 -0600, you wrote:
>              Hello Gang,   Thank you all for your previous hints and
>comments ref: light box and cutting/foiling/soldering.  Appreciate all of
>you who took the time to comment.  One thing I learned is there are may
>different ways to get the same results.  
>I have almost finished the cutting/foiling of my 18" octoganal hummingbird.
>When I get ready to foil do I flat solder the entire project and then go
>over it and bead it up.    Or do I flat solder a small section and then bead
>it up..working a section at a time??
>Thanks for your advice.. a step at a time..
>
>Lorley from Phoenix
>
>
>
>
>Dispatchers Save Seconds..Seconds Save Lives
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 07:21:26 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Soldering
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 10:19:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun23.61928.0>
References: <<2.2.32.19960623034852.00680d80@mail.netzone.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Lorley L. Oneyear wrote:
> 
>               Hello Gang,   Thank you all for your previous hints and
> comments ref: light box and cutting/foiling/soldering.  Appreciate all of
> you who took the time to comment.  One thing I learned is there are may
> different ways to get the same results.
> I have almost finished the cutting/foiling of my 18" octoganal hummingbird.
> When I get ready to foil do I flat solder the entire project and then go
> over it and bead it up.    Or do I flat solder a small section and then bead
> it up..working a section at a time??
> Thanks for your advice.. a step at a time..
> 
> Lorley from Phoenix
> 
> Dispatchers Save Seconds..Seconds Save Lives
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


when i solder i always flat solder first with 50-50 on the front, along 
with tinning, then i put a bead down with 60-40. i flip the piece over 
do the same thing on the other side, but usually i just flat solder the 
back, since no one really sees the back, and then i do my edges. if your 
wondering, 50-50 prevents the 60-40 to drip through because of the 
temperature difference also 50-50 is cheaper so i can fill in gaps and 
stuff.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 07:23:51 1996
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From: ssuter@intrastar.net (Shirley Suter)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re:  Soldering
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:02:03 -0500
Message-ID: <1996Jun23.423.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Suter's Stained Glass (409) 687-3841
Precedence: bulk

Hi Lorley,

Here is more evidence that there are several "right" ways to solder a 
foiled panel.  My method is to tack the front side of the panel only.  I 
do plenty of tacks....then flip the panel over and bead-solder the "back" 
of the panel.  Flip the panel and do the same to the "front" side.  Add 
the edging, wash like the devil, patina if desired, polish and wax and 
deliver.  This method works well for me!!

Keep cool if you can in Phoenix!!!

Shirley 
Grapeland, Tx.
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 08:04:08 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: safe for kids 
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 09:59:59 -0500
Message-ID: <199606231459.JAA04244@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My thoughts on kids and s.g. ..... FWIW

Maybe there is just too much emphasis these days on kids trying
everything... instant gratification....quick takes....idiot proofing? I
don't know.

I believe that if a young person is interested in glass, there are many
aspects that can be worked on to improve motor skills and hand/eye and
artistic sense that aren't too risky.

I mean if you were cutting a 2x4 in half you certainly would not put a
skillsaw in the hands of most 8 yr. olds but you can teach how to use a tape
measure and mark it off. Same with glass, they can trace patterns, cut out
patterns, work with you on glass selection, smooth out foil, help clean up
panels and so forth, when my son was about that age we would play the "glass
game" I'd hold up pieces of glass and he would try and guess what kind it
was...cath., antique, hammered, granite etc. we had a lot of fun doing that.
The point is we worked together and I guess that was the most important
thing in the long run.

 to Monona,

I took a lead toxicity test about three years ago, result was negative,
Whew! At that time I only paid 5 bucks for the test because it was
subsidized by the Fed/State? because of the terrible damage to children from
paint ingestion, is that still the case? Also I believe that lead vaporizes
at far higher temps then can be attained with a soldering iron?or is there
particulate mixed in with the fumes? So just don't eat the stuff?  maybe...


Len

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 13:47:13 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: safe for kids
Date: 23 Jun 96 16:46:09 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun23.20469.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Len wrote:

>>I took a lead toxicity test about three years ago, result was negative,
>>Whew!<<

Ain't no such.  If you are on this planet, you have a lead count.  The only
question is "how high."  Some tests can't detect below a few
micrograms/deciliter and theoretically you could be below the detection
limit--but not likely.

In addition, there are still alter kucker Doctors out their that think 40 ug/dl
is "normal."

EVERYONE WHO WORKS WITH LEAD IN ANY WAY SHOULD KNOW WHAT THEIR LAST LEAD COUNT
WAS.

>>At that time I only paid 5 bucks for the test because it was subsidized by
>>the Fed/State?<<

Many health departments still will provide low cost tests.  Occasionally they
will do this for adults also.  Adult blood leads of 25 ug/dl and above must be
reported in 23 States.  This is helping to identify the industries in which the
worst problems are occurring.

>>... because of the terrible damage to children from paint >>ingestion, is that
still the case?<<

A big part of the problem was lead gasoline filling the air with lead dust.  The
average blood lead levels in children dropped dramatically when lead gasoline
was banned.  The next big problem was lead paint dust in older housing and local
problems like proximity to smelters and large lead painted structures like
bridges, and lead-contaminated water supplies.

Ingestion is not the only problem.  Inhalation of the dust is also a significant
source of exposure.


>> Also I believe that lead vaporizes at far higher temps then can be >>attained
with a soldering iron?or is there particulate mixed in with the >>fumes? <<


Time to re-examine your "beliefs."  Lead begins to vaporize at the moment it
MELTS not at its vapor point when it boils.  This is similar to way water
evaporates at temperatures far lower than 212 o F.  Clearly, the higher the
temperature of the liquid lead (the hotter the iron), the more vaporizes, but
any melted lead is vaporizing.


Lead vapor, however, is not the problem.  When lead vaporizes, the vapor reacts
immediately with oxygen in the air and recondenses into tiny particles of lead
oxide called "fume" particles.  It is the "fume" that is inhaled, settles on
surfaces all over the house, collects in hair and clothing, and so on.   This is
why the OSHA Lead Standard requires that employers provide showers and changing
rooms for workers so they will not take the dust home to their families in their
hair and clothing.

It is very difficult to clean up a home that has been contaminated with lead
fume.  The particles are so small they will go right through the vacuum cleaner
filter or through a dust mask.  To collect fume you need a special HEPA vacuum
or a respirator that is NIOSH-approved for fume.

The particles also are so small that you don't see them in the air or on
surfaces.  I just had lead wipe samples done in a workplace that looked
pristine, but the lab test showed that the lead in the dust was 5 time the
acceptable limit.

>>So just don't eat the stuff? <<<

Dream on.......

Monona Rossol

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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 14:26:42 1996
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From: rneaves@ix.netcom.com (Roger Neaves )
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Soldering
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 14:26:08 -0700
Message-ID: <199606232126.OAA21317@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>
>when i solder i always flat solder first with 50-50 on the front, 
along 
>with tinning, then i put a bead down with 60-40. i flip the piece over 

>do the same thing on the other side, but usually i just flat solder 
the 
>back, since no one really sees the back, and then i do my edges. if 
your 
>wondering, 50-50 prevents the 60-40 to drip through because of the 
>temperature difference also 50-50 is cheaper so i can fill in gaps and 

>stuff.
>
>---Mike Savad
>What a great idea.  I always have trouble with the solder dripping 
through the back.  Well, to tell the truth, I have trouble getting the 
solder bead just right.  But that's another topic.  I will try your 
method the next time.  Thanks.   

Janet
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 23 16:32:59 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 1996 18:29:44 -0500
Message-ID: <199606232329.SAA10235@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Monona,

You said,
Ain't no such. If you are on this planet, you have a lead count.

Absolutely correct. I should have said I "passed" my levels were "acceptable"

You said,
Ingestion is not the only problem. Inhalation of the dust is also a
significant source of exposure.

Correct again. I should have said ingestion AND inhalation as opposed to
absorption through the skin.

You said,
Lead begins to vaporize the moment it melts.

True, but it solidifies almost instantly in a s.g. application, so I really
don't think that's an issue compared to lets say a wave solder machine in an
electronics plant.

You said,
Dream on......

Yes Monona, I guess I'll have to, stained glass is my life work, and if
losing some brain cells along the way goes with the territory so be it. I
will promise myself not to chew on my fingernails though.
 

Thanks for the information, it is apparant that you are a professional and
know what of you speak. I appreciate the constructive criticism (it wasen't
a flame was it?)

Len

Oh BTW,  what the heck is an alter kucker Doctor? 


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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 09:32:48 1996
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From: "James Bartley Brauer" <jbbrauer@eos.ncsu.edu>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Safe for kids?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 12:31:56 -0400
Message-ID: <9606241231.ZM10587@eos.ncsu.edu>
References: <<199606212206.AA23211@relay.interserv.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi All!

As a child I melted my first solder at age 6 in my Grandfather's garage. I
recall my facination with watching the silver balls of solder turn solid.  I
was shown how to solder wires at age 9 or 10 and began to solder extra speakers
to my radio. I even assembled a small amplifier from a schematic at an early
age, and it worked.  As a young adult I learned micro-soldering from a former
NASA instructor.  On occasion I use my soldering skills at work as a Field
Service Engineer for a computer company.  I also enjoy applying these soldering
skills to my glass hobby.

Until I followed the recent thread, I believed what I suppose is just
electonics folklore.  I always heard that there is no signifigant lead in the
smoke from burning solder.  I think the explanation I heard was that: any
particulate lead in solder smoke was too heavy to become airborne.  I also
heard that you should wash well after soldering, to avoid ingesting lead from
your fingers.  Based on my newfound information about lead hazards, learned on
this list,  I will move my soldering table to the window.  I hope to  build a
window mount for the fan I pulled off an industrial heating unit, and use it to
divert fumes.

My point is this.  I was allowed to use a soldering iron at a young age and
allowed to pursue other constructive interests.  In the process was burned,
shocked, and cut.  But, these experiences helped me develop my interest so that
I now have a career I enjoy.  My wife and I don't have children, so I am not
comfortable saying what one should or should not allow their children to do.
 Hopefully my little story will help the author of "Safe for kids?", and
others, make an informed decision.

Thanks,
James B. Brauer
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 10:04:38 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 13:02:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun24.9219.0>
References: <<199606211851.NAA06645@informixs-bh.na.informix.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

In light of some additional postings, I'd like to clarify my position on
children doing stained glass.

1.  No child should be encouraged or pushed to get involved in any hobby
that requires a level of maturity not yet attained.  As parents and
teachers, it is our responsibility to ensure that the child has respect
for the relative dangers of stained glass before embarking on such an
activity.

2.  EVERYONE must be properly educated about the hazards of working with
these materials and must always seek more definitive understanding of
these dangers. (I never knew that some patinas emitted hydrogen sulfide.
And I'm a chemist!  Consider me corrected and educated.)

3.  It is my opinion (and there are those who disagree) that materials
subsitution is wrong for a child who is serious sbout continuing.
Perhaps, at first, the less hazardous materials should be used, until
the child has developed the required dexterity.  But once the instructor
is comfortable with the child's understanding of the hazards of using
the materials, the child should be allowed to use them.

4.  SUPERVSION, 100% of the time!!  This cannot be emphasized enough.
Any child who embarks on learning stained glass, MUST be supervised by
an adult who KNOWS that hazards and can recognize hazardous behaviors
and habits.

Ultimately, knowing the hazards and how to properly handle them is far
more effective than hiding the hazards.

Just my two cents...

Matt McDonnell

-- 
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   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
send inquiries to mailto:webmaster@stained-glass.com
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 20:58:42 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Postscript to safe for kids?
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 1996 23:57:13 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun24.195713.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello Theresa:

I have only been doing glass for a few months myself.  From my experience,
the initial setup costs will run (retail) about $450 - $600+.  I would also
suggest that you consider buying a diamond headed grinder to smooth the edges
of the glass.  It will make the process much more enjoyable and also, give
you a better finished product.  You will need a soldering iron.  They range
in wattage from 80 to 100 watts.  You will also need some way to control the
amout of heat that the iron produces.  A rheostat can also be purchased to
accomplish this.  You will need a good glass cutter.  Try a few different
types (stick,pistol) at you local glass shop to see which one you prefer.
 Your glass shop can give you info as to what other tooling that you will
need.  If you have any other questions, feel free to ask. Someone here will
be more than happy to answer.

Enjoy...

Michael & Donna McGrew
Shattered Images
Houston,Tx.
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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 22:30:34 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: 25 Jun 96 01:26:41 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun25.52641.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk





>>1.  No child should be encouraged or pushed to get involved in any hobby
>>that requires a level of maturity not yet attained.  As parents and
>>teachers, it is our responsibility to ensure that the child has respect
>>for the relative dangers of stained glass before embarking on such an
>>activity.<<

As parents, you have more options, but as teachers, you had better consider 
some of the legal cases that have established that a child should not be 
exposed to toxic materials or dangerous processes until they can be expected 
to **understand the hazards of materials and be expected to carry out 
precautions effectively and consistently.**

Most psychologists and educators will testify that this can be expected of 
children somewhere around age 12 or 13.  

This principle was further solidified in 1992 when the U.S. Consumer Product 
Safety Commission published a Safety Alert on art materials.  This alert 
states that children in grade six and under should not work with any art or 
craft material which carries any hazard warnings--including "keep out of 
reach of children" or "use with adult supervision."  One of the products 
specifically mentioned as inappropriate was lead ceramic glaze.

If a teacher decides on her/his own that lead solders (which all carry hazard 
warnings) are OK for an eight year old, and if there is a problem of any kind 
and the parent decides to sue the teacher--one of the "expert opinions" on 
the parent's side is the opinion of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. 

I hate to be a spoil-sport, but the fact is that anyone teaching children 
younger than 12 or 13 with any kind of hazard-labeled materials is out on a 
legal limb.  


>>2.  EVERYONE must be properly educated about the hazards of working with
>>these materials and must always seek more definitive understanding of
>>these dangers. (I never knew that some patinas emitted hydrogen sulfide.
>>And I'm a chemist!  Consider me corrected and educated.)<<


If full-grown adults can find themselves lacking in information about 
hazards, how can we expect a child to be informed and educated.


>>3.  It is my opinion (and there are those who disagree) that materials
>>subsitution is wrong for a child who is serious sbout continuing.
>>Perhaps, at first, the less hazardous materials should be used, until
>>the child has developed the required dexterity.  But once the instructor
>>is comfortable with the child's understanding of the hazards of using
>>the materials, the child should be allowed to use them.


As I pointed out, teachers that take this decision upon themselves, also 
take the liability for that decision upon themselves.  They also do so in 
direct opposition to the opinion of experts and a federal Agency.


>>4.  SUPERVSION, 100% of the time!!  This cannot be emphasized enough.
>>Any child who embarks on learning stained glass, MUST be supervised by
>>an adult who KNOWS that hazards and can recognize hazardous behaviors
>>and habits.<<

This is why the Consumer Product Safety Commission's alert includes as an 
example the hazard label "use with adult supervision."

If anyone would like a copy of the 1992 Consumer Product Safety Commission 
Safety Alert--which also applies to nursing home residents and hospital 
patients--I will send you one if you leave your snail address in my e-mail.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson St., #23
NYC, NY 10012-2586        212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 22:30:35 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: safe for kids
Date: 25 Jun 96 01:26:06 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun25.5266.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



>>You said,
>>Ain't no such. If you are on this planet, you have a lead count.<<

>Absolutely correct. I should have said I "passed" my levels were 
>"acceptable"<

But what was the number of micrograms?  That and the average levels from 
the area in which you live will indicate if you are getting a contribution 
from your work or not.  

>>You said,
>>Lead begins to vaporize the moment it melts.

>True, but it solidifies almost instantly in a s.g. application, so I really
>don't think that's an issue compared to lets say a wave solder machine in an
>electronics plant.<

But in the electronics plants, now, there are local ventilation systems in 
place.  In s.g., the solder is liquid long enough to be significant under 
certain circumstances--especially if you work at home where you live long 
hours with the fume.


>>Yes Monona, I guess I'll have to, stained glass is my life work, and if
>>losing some brain cells along the way goes with the territory so be it.<<


Its not a matter of giving it up, its a matter of investing money in 
ventilation equipment and time good hygiene.


>>I appreciate the constructive criticism (it wasen't a flame was it?)<<

Nah.

>>Oh BTW,  what the heck is an alter kucker Doctor? <<

A very disrespectful way of saying the doc is an old foggie, set in his 
ways.  Also a term used to find out if there is anyone else on the forum who 
came from the same background I did.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson St., # 23
New York, NY 10012-2586    212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Mon Jun 24 22:31:09 1996
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X-Path: CompuServe.COM!75054.2542
From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: what about the fume trap
Date: 25 Jun 96 01:25:58 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun25.52558.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mary wrote:

>>My mentor just got one of the portable units and is using it religiously.
>>Is she spinning her wheels?  Or will this really keep some lead out of our
>>systems?<<


It depends on a number of things:

1) Can the filter capture fume particles?  To do this is should be a HEPA 
(high efficiency particulate air) filter capable of capturing 99.995% of 
particles of a diameter of 0.3 microns.  This information should be in the 
unit's manual.

2) does it draw strongly enough to capture the air right above where you 
solder.  To test this, light some incense and see if the smoke is 
drawn firmly away from the point at which you will be soldering.  It is 
particularly difficult to draw properly from the middle of large jobs.  The 
best types have flexible ducts with hoods at the end so you can position them 
right near your work.

3) does the air stream from the exhaust interfere with capture?  I have seen 
some units that are box-shaped and the exhaust blows out just above the 
intake.  This means that the turbulence created will interfere with proper 
capture.  


If the unit is just sitting somewhere near where the work is being done and 
filtering the air, it is pretty much useless.  But there are some excellent 
units around that were originally designed for the electronics industry.  
These are worth the money.  And the two major manufacturers, Nederman and 
Torit just merged. Nederman is at 24719 Crestview Court, Framington Hills, MI 
48018  Phone 313/478-5702.  Those who are interested can talk to them and get 
product information or a catalog.

Monona Rossol,
industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson St., #23
NYC 10012-2586   212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 25 04:46:58 1996
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From: Glsslizard@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 07:47:06 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun25.3476.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I agree with all of the previous postings about safety.  You can't work
around stained glass for long without getting cut, getting a glass splinter,
or burning yourself with hot solder - no matter how careful you are.  

As far as supplies go, some of the catalogs sell "start-up kits" in low,
medium and high-priced sets.  That is what I did when I got started.  It
includes the basic supplies that you need, as well as some sample glass.  As
far as patterns go, a quilting pattern makes a good beginning panel.  Most of
the cuts are straight, and the shapes are simple.  You can pick up a quilting
pattern book at most any sewing/craft shop.
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From owner-glass Tue Jun 25 07:41:27 1996
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From: len alcamo <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: same background
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 09:38:11 -0500
Message-ID: <199606251438.JAA05500@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Monona,

Received direct E-mail from a list member who clued me in on the *literal*
translation from Yiddish of alter kucker...I will keep it to myself...  this
is a family channel (chuckle) after all.

I do not share the same exact background as you but as an expatriate New
Yorker who went to Brooklyn Tech H.S. I know our backgrounds have been
stirred together in the same pot, like on the *GG* maybe? 

Enjoy your glass work

Len


NEWS FLASH!!!!! I just heard that cheap imported mini-blinds are
contaminated with lead......boy oh boy, this planet is getting turned into
one giant crap pile ain't it

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 25 19:11:51 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: same background
Date: 25 Jun 96 22:10:20 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun26.21020.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



>>Received direct E-mail from a list member who clued me in on the *literal*
>>translation from Yiddish of alter kucker...<<

Ah, studying languages can be so uplifting.


>>I do not share the same exact background as you but as an expatriate New
>>Yorker who went to Brooklyn Tech H.S. I know our backgrounds have been
>>stirred together in the same pot, like on the *GG* maybe? <<

Nope.  I was a professional entertainer as a child.  We had a residence in
Wisconsin and our booking agency was in Chicago.


>>NEWS FLASH!!!!! I just heard that cheap imported mini-blinds are
>>contaminated with lead......boy oh boy, this planet is getting turned into
>>one giant crap pile ain't it<<


I had my newsletter article on this written weeks ago thanks to my spies at the
CPSC.  What amazes me is that no one asks simple questions--like

**Why is lead in the plastic?**  It turns out that it is an excellent heat-light
stabilizer.  Lead is also used as an opacifier and filler.  In fact, there are
lots of plastic materials that are laced with lead.

**What will they replace lead with?**  This is scary.  Some manufacturers are
going to use organic tin compounds some of which are even more toxic.  Some are
going to change formulations without telling anyone what they will be using.

**How is CPSC going to ensure that the new plastics aren't as dangerous?** They
aren't.  They are not even allowed by Congress to premarket test products.

The bottom line is: the cost of fixing this booboo falls on the individual
consumers who are told to throw out their blinds.  Industry will not be charged
a dime when consumers dump millions of pounds of their lead blinds in our land
fills.  Industry will make money because consumers must now buy more blinds.
There is no guarantee that the new blinds will be safer.  ANd if they are not,
and if CPSC finds out, industry just gets another chance to shtup us again!

See anything the least unfair in this situation?

Monona

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 25 20:34:50 1996
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X-Path: nz1.netzone.com!lorley
From: "Lorley L. Oneyear" <lorley@netzone.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Light Box The Sequel
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 20:42:47 -0600
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960626024247.0068e46c@mail.netzone.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Michale McGrue..Thanks for the info on your light box.  My 80 year old
neighbor has volunteered to make me a light box in exchange for my homemade
cookies and cheesecakes.   I am still thinking about using the morton
gridded top but turning it upside down.  I can use the smooth surface to cut
on and flip it over when I want to use the gridded side. Does anyone see
problems w/ using the plastic morton board?? Will it scratch or get rough??
Or be strong enough to cut on??  If not I'll just have a sheet of glass cut
to fit that same size.. I am going to ask him to build it on casters and
build in a couple of cubby holes in the bottom to hold sheets of glass.  My
work table is approx 36" high so if he makes it 34" high I will be able to
push it underneath my work table and keep it out of the way when not using
it.  Will 34" be a comfortable height for me to cut my glass. I'm approx 5'4 ..

Bye for now.. Always listening..sometimes participating..Thanks
Lorley In Arizona

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From owner-glass Tue Jun 25 23:52:12 1996
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From: "Joseph D. Noble" <drno@mbay.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: News memo (RANT)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 1996 23:50:43 -0700
Message-ID: <199606260650.XAA18229@otter.mbay.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>Incidentally, thanks for the supportive comments.  I/we are interested in 
>passing along as much solid info as possible and try to keep our "recruiting" 
>to a bare minimum; just a single line at the bottom pointing out that 
>membership is available.  It's true that membership dues underwrite the 
>Guild's projects, but nobody's salaried or paid in any way/shape/form.  I'm 
>the only so-called "employee," but I'm a dollar-a-year man and after three 
>years with the Guild have yet to see dollar one. <g>  What actually happens 
>is that I shell out many shekels of my own every month, my wife's office 
>underwrites all of the phone/online costs, plus most of the office supplies, 
>and I spend 20-30 hours a week of my own time on Guild projects.  Why?  
>Habit: I've been doing this kind of thing (sharing of information on glass) 
>since 1972.  Why stop now? <g>
>
>Albert

Please don't stop now Albert.  I think you are doing a great job and I for 
one greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.

David
DR NO
Monterey, CA

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 26 04:12:39 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: News memo (RANT)
Date: 26 Jun 96 07:10:49 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun26.111049.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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   >Please don't stop now Albert.  I think you are doing a great job and I
   >for one greatly appreciate it.  Thank you.

No, thank *you, doctor! I appreciate the vote of confidence, since that's the
only form of payment that counts with me.

I've been quiet lately because I've been putting together the newest issue of
Common Ground: GLASS.  I should say I've put it together three times, thanks to
some glitchy software that moves all of the captions around to the wrong places
and I've had to re-do all of them twice.  Or all of the photographs disappear
and I have to re-boot to get them back. <sigh>  This software's (Corel Ventura
Publisher, if you wanna know) going to make me soft in the head!  But the
issue's going to be very nice, I think: a bit of a new look for the magazine
(well, 44 pages plus cover is largish for a "newsletter," isn't it? Even though
that's what it's called). <g>

Albert
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 26 07:32:07 1996
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X-Path: netline.net!leestat
From: leestat@netline.net (Lee Boe)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Light Box The Sequel
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 10:35:55 -0400
Message-ID: <199606261435.KAA10063@tesla.netline.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>  I can use the smooth surface to cut
>on and flip it over when I want to use the gridded side. Does anyone see
>problems w/ using the plastic morton board?? Will it scratch or get rough??
>Or be strong enough to cut on??  If not I'll just have a sheet of glass cut
>to fit that same size.. I am going to ask him to build it on casters and
>build in a couple of cubby holes in the bottom to hold sheets of glass.  My
>work table is approx 36" high so if he makes it 34" high I will be able to
>push it underneath my work table and keep it out of the way when not using
>it.  Will 34" be a comfortable height for me to cut my glass. I'm approx 5'4 ..
>
>Bye for now.. Always listening..sometimes participating..Thanks
>Lorley In Arizona

Just a note on the above, use the Morton surface right side (little holes)
up, that is what it is designed for.  This way it traps the glass slivers as
you cut.  ( I built my light box this way)  I put the pattern on the top,
trace the pieces, then remove pattern to cut.  Works just great.  I have a
vacuum right near the work table and vacuum up the slivers every few
minutes, using just the hose end. ( It pulls the slivers right out of the
little holes, and keeps the work area clean and safer.  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 26 15:13:21 1996
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X-Path: p3.net!kre8tiv1
From: kre8tiv1@p3.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: safe for kids
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 18:12:06 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun26.11126.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I don't think that allowing a child to work with glass has to be an "all 
or nothing" deal.

My daughter is 9 years old and enjoys trying anything creative.  She is 
anxious to try working with glass and I am considering allowing her to 
trace her original design on the glass and MAYBE foil it once I have cut 
it.  This way, she is still involved and experiencing some of what it is 
like to handle the glass.

And this is what I have to say about that :)

                                Lin
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From owner-glass Wed Jun 26 19:23:53 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: safe for kids?
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 1996 19:20:03 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun26.12203.0>
References: <<1996Jun25.52641.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

It was mentioned that some patinas emit hydrogen sulfide...can you tell us
which ones?  Frankly, I admit after reading the warning labels once I have
not paid a great deal of attention.  I did do litmus testing on fluxes and
patinas but nothing lately.
Thanks

P. Johnsen
edupjohn@slonet.org

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From owner-glass Wed Jun 26 21:45:56 1996
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From: Steven Steele <steel00@pop01.ny.us.ibm.net>
To: glass@bungi.com, glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Light Box The Sequel 
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 96 23:31:48 PDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun26.63148.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>Michale McGrue..Thanks for the info on your light box.  My 80 year old
>neighbor has volunteered to make me a light box in exchange for my homemade
>cookies and cheesecakes.   I am still thinking about using the morton
>gridded top but turning it upside down.  I can use the smooth surface to cut
>on and flip it over when I want to use the gridded side. Does anyone see
>problems w/ using the plastic morton board?? Will it scratch or get rough??
>Or be strong enough to cut on??  If not I'll just have a sheet of glass cut
>to fit that same size.. I am going to ask him to build it on casters and
>build in a couple of cubby holes in the bottom to hold sheets of glass.  My
>work table is approx 36" high so if he makes it 34" high I will be able to
>push it underneath my work table and keep it out of the way when not using
>it.  Will 34" be a comfortable height for me to cut my glass. I'm approx 5'4 

I found some flourescent light covers at the local hardare store that include 
the grid (same size as Morton's) and an opaque sheet (very similar to 
Morton's) to build a light table. I set the grid in a recess in the light 
table frame and the sheet of opaque plastic on top, also held in place by the 
lip of the recess. With a 2 inch support around the outside it is strong 
enough to cut on but I find that putting the Morton surface on top makes it 
better and you still get the backlight. The only problem I noted is the 
tendency for the plastic-on-plastic surfaces to slip.The old standby of double 
stick tape fixed that. The best thing about the grid and plastic is that it 
comes in 2X4 foot sheets which provides flexibility in building a 
larger-than-Morton light table.

Steven

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 09:19:49 1996
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From: cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA
To: "GLASS@BUNGI.COM" <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Tip of the Week
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 09:19:05 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun27.2195.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just wanted to mention this tip because I just discovered it myself, I 
was always having problems with my pattern pieces disintegrating when 
grinding so I used plastic laminate or mac-tac to cover my pattern before 
cutting it out, cover both sides of the pattern to make it completely 
waterproof, it works great! Have fun, Donna
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 11:37:24 1996
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X-Path: awinc.com!jthomson
From: Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com>
To: Stained Glass Mailing List <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Some frustrations solved...
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 11:35:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun27.43549.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.

I purchased one of the gold ink pens (fine tip) at a local stationary 
store at an outrageous price ($5.50 Cdn), but it works great and was 
WELL worth the money.  As a result, my grinding is much more accurate 
and requires less fitting after the initial grind.

I trimmed the wick inside my cutter and it seems to be working fine now. 
 I am also not pressing as hard as I did before and my pieces are 
breaking nicer now.  However, I still need quite a bit of practice with 
my grozing (spelling??) pliers -- I have never been taught how to 
properly use them.

Finally, I am confident that I can make a Worden lamp, but need to order 
the catalogue with pictures first.  I will start with a small table lamp 
before proceeding to the hanging lamp.

Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.  
When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the 
cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in 
stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one 
was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just 
not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a 
five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless 
again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a 
casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want 
one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is 
cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking 
for?  Any brand suggestions???

Julie
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 16:29:27 1996
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X-Path: c031.aone.net.au!Gordon.Newell
From: Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: (was:Some frustrations solved..) Soldering Iron.
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 96 09:27:38
Message-ID: <199606272328.JAA28376@mail.mel.aone.net.au>
References: <<1996Jun27.43549.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In <1996Jun27.43549.0>, on 06/27/96 at 11:35 AM,
   Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com> said:

>Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.

[edited]

>Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.  
>When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the 
>cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in 
>stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one 
>was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just 
>not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a 
>five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless 
>again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a 
>casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want 
>one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is 
>cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking 
>for?  Any brand suggestions???

Julie

I had the same problems. Changed to a Weller WD100 Iron. Has replaceable
steel clad temperature controlled tips. Mine came with an 800 degree tip.
Changed to a 700 tip (cause I'm not too quick). Great Iron.


~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~
Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9221 3958, Mobile: 041 111 6636 
OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)                               
 ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 18:46:36 1996
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From: XLBR14A@prodigy.com ( ROBERT A SIGMON)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Some frustrations solved...
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 21:38:15, -0500
Message-ID: <199606280138.VAA15974@mime3.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

JULIE

I AM SURE THAT A NEW IRON IS WELL WORTH THE INVESTMENT, EVEN AS A 
CASUAL HOBBYIST.  TO KEEP THE TIP PROPERLY TINNED, I USED A CHEMICAL 
BLOCK CALLED "SAL AMMONIAC" BY L.B. ALLEN.  I GOT IT AT MY LOCAL S.G. 
SHOP.  IT LASTS FOREVER.  IT REALLY HELPS THE SOLDER TO FLOW OFF THE 
IRON ON TO YOUR WORK

GOOD LUCK

BOB
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 19:42:01 1996
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From: Allen & Karen Green <104444.3177@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@BUNGI.COM" <glass@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Tip of the Week
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:40:54 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun27.184054.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

how does one cut thru the laminate with pattern shears? It seems to me that
it would not cut clean because of the added thickness?
 
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 19:42:26 1996
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From: Allen & Karen Green <104444.3177@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@BUNGI.COM" <glass@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Alter Kucker
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:41:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun27.184137.0>
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I believe the word you want is 'alter cocker'.
 
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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 22:27:21 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Some frustrations solved
Date: 28 Jun 96 01:24:25 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.52425.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk




>>TO KEEP THE TIP PROPERLY TINNED, I USED A CHEMICAL 
>>BLOCK CALLED "SAL AMMONIAC" BY L.B. ALLEN.  I GOT IT AT MY LOCAL S.G. 
>>SHOP.  IT LASTS FOREVER.  IT REALLY HELPS THE SOLDER TO FLOW OFF THE 
>>IRON ON TO YOUR WORK<<

Let me just tell you why it works.   Sal ammoniac is ammonium chloride, 
NH4Cl.  when it get hot, some of it just goes up in a fume that looks like 
smoke and some of it splits apart into ammonia and hydrochloric acid.  
That'll clear your throat.

Use some ventilation.

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson  St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586    212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 22:27:32 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: 28 Jun 96 01:23:57 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.52357.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk




>>It was mentioned that some patinas emit hydrogen sulfide...can you tell us
>>which ones?<<

Patinas are generally of two types: 1) those that react with the metal 
surface to form metal compounds such as sulfides or oxides, and 2) those 
which dissolve metal from the metal surface and replace it with a different 
metal deposited from the patina chemicals.  

Potassium sulfide and sodium sulfide are commonly used to darken metal 
and they release hydrogen sulfide gas which can be identified by 
its "rotten egg" odor.  Anytime you read a patina MSDS and see it contains a 
"sulfide"  you will probably get the hydrogen sulfide odor.

Copper sulfate + acid solutions give off sulfur dioxide during use.  
Selenium-containing patinas may release hydrogen selenide gas.  And now I 
know about tellurium + acid patinas that can release tellurium chloride which 
smells garlicky.

>>Frankly, I admit after reading the warning labels once I have
>>not paid a great deal of attention.<<

Forget the labels.  Get the MSDS on all patinas.

>>I did do litmus testing on fluxes and patinas but nothing lately.<<

That will only identify whether or not it is acidic, but it tells you nothing 
about what will be released when it reacts with the metal.

Hope this helps.


Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist 
Arts, Crafts and Theater Safety
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Thu Jun 27 22:27:39 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@BUNGI.COM>
Subject: Alter Kucker
Date: 28 Jun 96 01:24:21 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.52421.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk




>>I believe the word you want is 'alter cocker'.<<

That's the way I've always pronounced it, too.  So when I wrote the message I
consulted my Yiddish/English dictionary to be absolutely sure.  Instead, it was
spelled Alter Kucker, said it is taboo and why.  Not a pretty story.

We are never too alter to learn.

Monona

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 01:46:44 1996
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From: jc@crosfield.co.uk (Jerry Cullingford)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some frustrations solved...
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:47:01 +0100 (BST)
Message-ID: <9606280847.AA23626@crosfield.co.uk>
References: <<1996Jun27.43549.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a 
> casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want 
> one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is 
> cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking 
> for?  Any brand suggestions???

I'm happy with my Weller 100W thermostatic iron :-). The tips are
replaceable, and control the temperature - so you get more consistent
behaviour. 

I can also recommend a tip cleaner - it's a small (roughly coin sized)
tin filled with a metallic grey block of (I believe) solder particles and
flux, that you can stick to your soldering iron stand - just dip the tip
in when it gets a bit gungy and it cleans and retins it a treat. I think
it's an Ersin(?) Multicore product called a 'tip tinner' or 'tip cleaner'.
(I assume the usual comments about fumes apply :-) ).


-- 
   _|_
  / |    Jerry Cullingford      jc@crosfield.co.uk      (Work)
  \_|_                          jc@selune.demon.co.uk   (Home)
\__/    Hemel Hempstead, UK     jerry@shell.portal.com  (alternate)
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 03:11:21 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: The Guild "Grows Up"
Date: 28 Jun 96 06:05:25 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.10525.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Those of you here who plumped for Guild membership dues being payable by credit
card will be glad to know that the Board of Directors has seen fit and taken
action to accept them.  Gosh, we're just like the "big boys" now, credit cards
and all! <s>  AMEX, Visa, MasterCard and Discover.

I've been reading here, but not saying much, because my time's been being spent
getting the next issue of the newsletter together.  It's going to be very nice,
if I say so myself (and I do).  Our usual printer in Poughkeepsie is continuing
his usual 50% discount on printing, which is nice news, and the print files are
off to him today.  Great glass in this issue ... some terrific stained glass
portraits, very fancy flamework, and I packed and squeezed and pushed and pulled
to pack in as much info as could be jammed into the pages and still be
graphically handsome as well as readable.  I think you're going to like this
issue a lot!

Then I spent the day yesterday putting together an information piece about the
Guild that will replace the sebbenty-lebben pages that previously have been
stuffed into a single envelope and mailed to inquiring minds at 55 cents US
postage.  This 11x17 will fold down to 5.5x8.5 and mail without an envelope,
thus saving me a lot of work printing and folding individual pages, as well as
saving the cost of the envelope and reducing the postage to 32c. It's a 39Mb
file, though, what will all the photos included in it, so it takes a couple of
hours to print out the negatives.  If you'd like information about the Guild,
email me your street address and I'll put one of these in the mail sometime next
week as soon as it's off the press.
                __________________________________________
                Albert Lewis            Executive Director
                International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
                __________________________________________

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 03:11:25 1996
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From: "Albert Lewis [IGGA]" <70544.3642@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Alter Kucker
Date: 28 Jun 96 06:05:18 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.10518.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


   >... I consulted my Yiddish/English dictionary to be absolutely sure.
   >Instead, it was spelled Alter Kucker, said it is taboo and why.  Not a
   >pretty story. We are never too alter to learn.

Monona,

Yiddish is a wonderfully poetic language, like ours a collection of words from
all over, which when spoken dances and gyrates and laughs and cries. Because I
speak German, I can understand a lot of it, or at least get the gist of what's
being said, but I do love to hear it spoken.

Albert, "altered" beyond his ability to believe

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 05:40:22 1996
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From: liz@intran.xerox.com (Liz Lynch)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 05:43:00 PDT
Message-ID: <9606281243.AA00378@moose.intran.xerox.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Monona;  in your last email you twice mentioned "MSDS"...whatsit?

Interesting stuff! Thanks for the education that is badly needed by me.  

Liz.

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 06:12:53 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some frustrations solved...
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:10:52 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.51052.0>
References: <<1996Jun27.43549.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Juile Thomson wrote:
> 
> Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.
> 
> I purchased one of the gold ink pens (fine tip) at a local stationary
> store at an outrageous price ($5.50 Cdn), but it works great and was
> WELL worth the money.  As a result, my grinding is much more accurate
> and requires less fitting after the initial grind.
> 
> I trimmed the wick inside my cutter and it seems to be working fine now.
>  I am also not pressing as hard as I did before and my pieces are
> breaking nicer now.  However, I still need quite a bit of practice with
> my grozing (spelling??) pliers -- I have never been taught how to
> properly use them.
> 
> Finally, I am confident that I can make a Worden lamp, but need to order
> the catalogue with pictures first.  I will start with a small table lamp
> before proceeding to the hanging lamp.
> 
> Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.
> When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the
> cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in
> stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one
> was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just
> not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a
> five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless
> again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a
> casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want
> one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is
> cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking
> for?  Any brand suggestions???
> 
> Julie
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


Julie, 

 For you grozing problems, hold your pliers upside down as in, instead 
of holding it with the curved side up, hold it with the curved side down 
(combination pliers) and then take the little bit of glass you want to 
remove, pinch down and break it off.  This will chip off little bits of 
glass, it's kinda hard to explain, ask your local stained glass store to 
show you.

 for a soldering iron, for the longest time now I've like the ungar, but 
I'm staring to hate it for a number of reasons. the next iron I'll 
probably get is an inland insta-heat. it looks like a good iron, but 
I'll still have to think about it. have you tinned your iron yet, using 
a sal ammoniac block? it sounds like you didn't, first try tinning your 
old iron, but when you do buy new, this is the first thing that should 
be done to the tip.  BTW if you get a regular iron look for an iron in 
the 80-100w range.  That should give you enough power to get through 
your projects.

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 06:23:20 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:21:29 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.52129.0>
References: <<9606281243.AA00378@moose.intran.xerox.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Liz Lynch wrote:
> 
> Monona;  in your last email you twice mentioned "MSDS"...whatsit?
> 
> Interesting stuff! Thanks for the education that is badly needed by me.
> 
> Liz.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


MSDS stands for Material Saftey Data Sheet. every chemical and product 
should have one. the expalin the chemicals used inside the product, and 
the exposure limit you should have with it. 

---Mike Savad
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 07:21:46 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: MSDS
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 10:20:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.6205.0>
References: <<9606281243.AA00378@moose.intran.xerox.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Liz:

MSDS is a Material Safety Data Sheet.  As it's name would imply, it 
contains information abouts the ingredients and the hazards of a 
particular product.  Although the contents of the MSDS must follow OSHA 
guidelines, some manufacturers are better than others at providing the 
information.

You should be able to get copies of MSDS's where you purchased the 
product (it's the law). Some manufacturers even include it in their 
packaging (usually about 3-4 pages).  

It's a very good idea to keep a file of all the MSDSs for all the 
products that you use.  If you employ anyone, you MUST have these 
available.  MSDS's are best when used to determine what protective 
equipment, clothing to use as well as how to respond to an exposure or 
fire.  And there's a lot more.

Matt McDonnell
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 08:42:24 1996
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 08:39:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.13916.0>
References: <<9606281243.AA00378@moose.intran.xerox.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

MSDS stands for Material Safety Data Sheets.  These are usually available
only upon request from the manufactures.  I have never found MSDS info
available at my corner SG store.  Is this something that we can expect to
have to produce in the future.  It would appear that all of the safety
measures being enforced against stained glass is going to make it more
difficult for people to enjoy a hobby that is no worse than other in terms
of its hazards and capability to do harm to reckless individuals.  

How many people are on workmans comp because of stained glass?  I am the
first to recommend safety; however, are we not going overboard in having
Big Bro protect us from ourselves? P. Johnsen (edupjohn@slonet.org).

On Fri, 28 Jun 1996, Liz Lynch wrote:

> 
> Monona;  in your last email you twice mentioned "MSDS"...whatsit?
> 
> Interesting stuff! Thanks for the education that is badly needed by me.  
> 
> Liz.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 09:00:57 1996
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From: Guitarshop@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: The Guild "Grows Up"
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:00:11 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.8011.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello Albert:

     We just received our packet this week in the mail.  Thanks.  Also,
whenever I receive an e-mail from you, most all of the text is
"struck-through".  It is still legible, but yours is the only one that looks
this way.  Is it a problem at you end or mine??

Michael.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 09:19:57 1996
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From: cooperd@camadm.Camosun.BC.CA
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Tip of the Week
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 09:19:12 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.21912.0>
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On Thu, 27 Jun 1996, Allen & Karen Green wrote:

> how does one cut thru the laminate with pattern shears? It seems to me that
> it would not cut clean because of the added thickness?
>  
> ----If you are using patten shears I would suggest that you cut the 
pattern out first then laminate, I don't use pattern shears so this 
didn't occur to me, anyway you could also use the laminate just to cover 
your original so it doesn't get wet.  I think I will try the gold pen it 
might save time.  Cheers!! Donna!> For subscription changes, please mail to: 
glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 09:47:40 1996
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From: Matt McDonnell <webmaster@stained-glass.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 12:46:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.84641.0>
References: <<1996Jun28.13916.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: T & M Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Peggy W. Johnsen wrote:
> 
> MSDS stands for Material Safety Data Sheets.  These are usually available
> only upon request from the manufactures.  I have never found MSDS info
> available at my corner SG store.  Is this something that we can expect to
> have to produce in the future.  It would appear that all of the safety
> measures being enforced against stained glass is going to make it more
> difficult for people to enjoy a hobby that is no worse than other in terms
> of its hazards and capability to do harm to reckless individuals.
> 
> How many people are on workmans comp because of stained glass?  I am the
> first to recommend safety; however, are we not going overboard in having
> Big Bro protect us from ourselves? P. Johnsen (edupjohn@slonet.org).
> 

Probably, but best to err on the side of safety.

You should request that your supplier ship MSDS's with each shipment.  
Ultimately, it is the manufacturer's responsibility to create and 
provide the MSDS, but the responsibility of providing them also trickles 
down to distributors and, I think, retailers.

I bet Monona can clear some of this up.  I haven't been doing this stuff 
for a while and it's beginning to get a little foggy.

Matt McDonnell
-- 
 T & M Stained Glass - http://www.stained-glass.com
   Future home of the Stained Glass Marketplace
           Visit soon, visit often.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 13:09:13 1996
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From: Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Some frustrations solved...
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 13:07:05 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.675.0>
References: <<1996Jun28.51052.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike Savad wrote:

> have you tinned your iron yet, using
> a sal ammoniac block? it sounds like you didn't, first try tinning your
> old iron, but when you do buy new, this is the first thing that should
> be done to the tip.

Thanks for the "tip" (ha ha), Mike.  I had put in an order to "The Glass Place" this morning and immediately 
called back to add on a Sal Ammoniac block when I read your note.  I had not been previously aware of these 
blocks.  Unfortunately, my order had already gone out the door :-(.... FORTUNATELY, I was told that they will 
send it out to me, without the usual minimum charge! :-)

Thanks again!!
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 20:08:27 1996
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@CompuServe.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: patina off-gas
Date: 28 Jun 96 23:05:16 EDT
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.3516.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



>> in your last email you twice mentioned "MSDS"...whatsit?<<

Material Safety Data Sheet.  Available from manufacturers on request if you 
are just a "consumer" and on demand if you use the product on the job as an 
employer or employee.  

OSHA requires that all employers make MSDSs on all products used on the job 
that are in anyway potentially hazardous be readily available to all workers 
during all working hours.  In addition, OSHA requires employers to train 
their employees to understand them. 

This training it required, then, for all employed teachers of stained glass 
in schools, universities, etc., and they, in turn, should make this training 
part of the curriculum for students.


>>Interesting stuff! <<

 Glad you think so.  

Monona Rossol, industrial hygienist
ACTS
181 Thompson St., # 23
NYC 10012-2586     212/777-0062

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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 20:10:06 1996
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X-Path: juno.com!diamonds
From: diamonds@juno.com (Mary J Austin)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: The Guild "Grows Up"
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 21:50:23 PST
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.55023.0>
References: <<1996Jun28.10525.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I'd like to be on your mailing list if possible
Mary Austin at diamonds@juno.com
801 Merry Ln. 
Grwd.,IN 46142

Thanks
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 20:44:01 1996
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From: FStryczek@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: S.G. Show in Chicago?
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 1996 23:42:52 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun28.194252.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am a stained glass hobbyist, and about 10 or 12 years ago, I attended a
"Stained Glass International" show here in the Chicago area, but haven't seen
one advertised since.  I really enjoyed it and would like to attend another.
 Does anyone know of such a show/convention like it planned for the Chicago
area where hobbyists are welcome?  

F. Stryczek, Jr.
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From owner-glass Fri Jun 28 22:21:28 1996
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From: Robert Burmester <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: (was:Some frustrations solved..) Soldering Iron.
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 1996 22:20:54 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun27.152054.0>
References: <<199606272328.JAA28376@mail.mel.aone.net.au>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Digital Odyssey Internet Services
Precedence: bulk

Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au wrote:
> 
> In <1996Jun27.43549.0>, on 06/27/96 at 11:35 AM,
>    Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com> said:
> 
> >Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.
> 
> [edited]
> 
> >Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.
> >When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the
> >cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in
> >stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one
> >was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just
> >not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a
> >five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless
> >again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a
> >casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want
> >one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is
> >cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking
> >for?  Any brand suggestions???
> 
> Julie
> 
> I had the same problems. Changed to a Weller WD100 Iron. Has replaceable
> steel clad temperature controlled tips. Mine came with an 800 degree tip.
> Changed to a 700 tip (cause I'm not too quick). Great Iron.
> 
> ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~> Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
> Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9221 3958, Mobile: 041 111 6636
> OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)
>  ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassJulie,

Suggest you try the Hakko 456 iron. The only iron I know of on the market that has the 
heating element inside the tip.  Enables this 60 watt iron to outperform most 100 watt 
irons.  In addition, quality is excellent.  We use them in our studio exclusively.  This 
iron runs at 1000 degrees so you will need a temperature control especially if you work 
with lead came.  I prefer the added flexibility of a temperature control versus using 
differnt tips to control temperatue as with the weller 100. It's much easier to change 
temperature by turning a knob versus removing and replacing ( a hot ) tip.

Since we work mostly with lead came, I have found that a temperature of 650 degrees 
gives us the best result.  I personally like the ability to precisely control the iron's 
temperature ( rather than to the nearest 100 degrees.

On copper foil, brass and zinc came I like to work at full throttle (1000 degrees) so I 
need only turn the knob all the way up.  I don't beleive the Weller will get over 800 
degrees.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 29 08:20:51 1996
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X-Path: Wittenberg.EDU!CUTLER
From: CUTLER@Wittenberg.EDU
To: GLASS@BUNGI.COM
Subject: tiffany lamp exhibit
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 11:19:45 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.71945.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi, all.  I have been in Chattanooga,TN doing work-related stuff.
To my surprise and delight I discovered the Tiffany Lamp exhibit at the Houston
(I think that is the name of the place) Museum in Chat.  It is a beautifully
presented display of part of a collection of Tiffany lamps.  I'm sorry
I dfon't have the brochure in front of me to be more specific.
Just a note to urge anyone nearby to go see it.  It will be there until early
september.
Cutler
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 29 13:05:18 1996
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@mars.superlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: (was:Some frustrations solved..) Soldering Iron.
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 16:03:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.12349.0>
References: <<1996Jun27.152054.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Robert Burmester wrote:
> 
> Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au wrote:
> >
> > In <1996Jun27.43549.0>, on 06/27/96 at 11:35 AM,
> >    Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com> said:
> >
> > >Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.
> >
> > [edited]
> >
> > >Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.
> > >When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the
> > >cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in
> > >stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one
> > >was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just
> > >not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a
> > >five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless
> > >again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a
> > >casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want
> > >one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is
> > >cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking
> > >for?  Any brand suggestions???
> >
> > Julie
> >
> > I had the same problems. Changed to a Weller WD100 Iron. Has replaceable
> > steel clad temperature controlled tips. Mine came with an 800 degree tip.
> > Changed to a 700 tip (cause I'm not too quick). Great Iron.
> >
> > ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~> Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
> > Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9221 3958, Mobile: 041 111 6636
> > OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)
> >  ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~>
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassJulie,
> 
> Suggest you try the Hakko 456 iron. The only iron I know of on the market that has the
> heating element inside the tip.  Enables this 60 watt iron to outperform most 100 watt
> irons.  In addition, quality is excellent.  We use them in our studio exclusively.  This
> iron runs at 1000 degrees so you will need a temperature control especially if you work
> with lead came.  I prefer the added flexibility of a temperature control versus using
> differnt tips to control temperatue as with the weller 100. It's much easier to change
> temperature by turning a knob versus removing and replacing ( a hot ) tip.
> 
> Since we work mostly with lead came, I have found that a temperature of 650 degrees
> gives us the best result.  I personally like the ability to precisely control the iron's
> temperature ( rather than to the nearest 100 degrees.
> 
> On copper foil, brass and zinc came I like to work at full throttle (1000 degrees) so I
> need only turn the knob all the way up.  I don't beleive the Weller will get over 800
> degrees.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


How much do the tips of the hakko cost?  I have an unger another built 
in heater and the professional tip cost around $45.

---Mike Savad
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jun 29 17:20:13 1996
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From: BarbaraBGS@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Alter Kucker
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 20:20:45 -0400
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.162045.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I think someone should enlighten the rest of us.  What does this mean?
 Barbara
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From owner-glass Sun Jun 30 17:56:41 1996
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From: Robert Burmester <arowhead@odc.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: (was:Some frustrations solved..) Soldering Iron.
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 1996 17:55:37 -0700
Message-ID: <1996Jun29.105537.0>
References: <<1996Jun29.12349.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Digital Odyssey Internet Services
Precedence: bulk

M. Savad wrote:
> 
> Robert Burmester wrote:
> >
> > Gordon.Newell@c031.aone.net.au wrote:
> > >
> > > In <1996Jun27.43549.0>, on 06/27/96 at 11:35 AM,
> > >    Juile Thomson <jthomson@awinc.com> said:
> > >
> > > >Thanks all for your hints to solve my glass frustrations.
> > >
> > > [edited]
> > >
> > > >Now, my most recent frustration -- my soldering iron is just awful.
> > > >When I took my original class last year this iron was included with the
> > > >cost of the course.  We were told that if we decided to continue on in
> > > >stained glass that we would probably require a better iron... this one
> > > >was very cheap and good only for a beginner.  Well, my solder will just
> > > >not stay on the tip.  We filed the tip and the solder stuck for about a
> > > >five minute period of usage, but then oxidized again and became useless
> > > >again.  So, now I need to purchase a new soldering iron.  I am only a
> > > >casual hobbiest so don't want to spend major money on it, but I do want
> > > >one that will have long life and replaceable tips (my current iron is
> > > >cheap cheap cheap and the tip is permanent).  What should I be looking
> > > >for?  Any brand suggestions???
> > >
> > > Julie
> > >
> > > I had the same problems. Changed to a Weller WD100 Iron. Has replaceable
> > > steel clad temperature controlled tips. Mine came with an 800 degree tip.
> > > Changed to a 700 tip (cause I'm not too quick). Great Iron.
> > >
> > > ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~> Gordon Newell, Chalcot Micro Systems
> > > Telephone: +61 3 9708 0134, Fax: +61 3 9221 3958, Mobile: 041 111 6636
> > > OS/2 is D.E.A.D (Definitely Efficient And Durable)
> > >  ~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'~'-._.-'-._.-'~>
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassJulie,
> >
> > Suggest you try the Hakko 456 iron. The only iron I know of on the market that has the
> > heating element inside the tip.  Enables this 60 watt iron to outperform most 100 watt
> > irons.  In addition, quality is excellent.  We use them in our studio exclusively.  This
> > iron runs at 1000 degrees so you will need a temperature control especially if you work
> > with lead came.  I prefer the added flexibility of a temperature control versus using
> > differnt tips to control temperatue as with the weller 100. It's much easier to change
> > temperature by turning a knob versus removing and replacing ( a hot ) tip.
> >
> > Since we work mostly with lead came, I have found that a temperature of 650 degrees
> > gives us the best result.  I personally like the ability to precisely control the iron's
> > temperature ( rather than to the nearest 100 degrees.
> >
> > On copper foil, brass and zinc came I like to work at full throttle (1000 degrees) so I
> > need only turn the knob all the way up.  I don't beleive the Weller will get over 800
> > degrees.
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> How much do the tips of the hakko cost?  I have an unger another built
> in heater and the professional tip cost around $45.
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glassMike,

Don't quote me but they are in the $20-$25 range.

Bob
----
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