From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 11:45:36 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re:  Charles R. Clark - Agate slabs
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 13:21:42 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.132142.0>
Precedence: bulk

David - I  sent some links Friday, but I haven't seen them on the list,
these looked pretty cool.

www.rockhoundsesq.com
www.roughgems.com
www.eloxite.com


Tami


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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:13:53 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 14:04:12 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.7412.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.131145.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they shall
and shant do?<
>

I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this list.
I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos, whats
and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
"nazi" as I can imagine.

I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their time,
computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for all
stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort it
must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the stained
glass community completely awesome.

I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the free
and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.

Thank you Glenna!

Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm


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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:30:20 1999
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From: "Molly Keys" <MollysGlass@sprintmail.com>
To: <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: New soldering iron
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 15:01:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.10126.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mary,

I have to agree with Mike Savad the Ungar is the one.  I've been using them
for over 15 years and I don't think they can be beat.  My arm doesn't get
nearly as fatigued as it did with other irons and the heat is easy to
control.  I like an iron that heats fast and I also usually have to irons
going when I'm on a large project.

My 2 cents.
Molly
-----Original Message-----
From: Mary <embee@mediaone.net>
To: Intrastar <glass@intrastar.net>; Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, July 31, 1999 8:19 PM
Subject: New soldering iron


>Hi all... (posted to two lists, so please forgive repeat)
>I am in the market for a new soldering iron, and want to purchase the best
>one available. I have a rheostat already, so just need the iron.
>Thanks in advance!
>Mary
>
>
>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 14:44:53 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:24:47 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.72447.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.81139.0>>
Precedence: bulk

There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
was:  Jadite or
Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
in
the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.

Best regards,
Cheryl



Spitzer, Charlie wrote:

> when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> mottling.
>
> it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
>
> regards,
> charlie
> phx, az
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > To: glass@bungi.com
> > Subject: New project
> >
> >
> > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > dolphin and a
> > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > Since I'm
> > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> >
> > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> >
> > Dorothy
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:20:25 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: The E-Tour - tools
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:19:52 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.71952.0>
References: <<1999Jul29.122334.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Was that before or after he said he'd come over and "knock you up?"
(that's come around and knock on the door for those folks not from the UK)

Regards,
Cheryl
("Colonial" by birth, British by close association)



Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 7/29/99 4:54:23 AM, s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
> writes:
>
> >Just to help the USA members about the tools:
> >
> >Sellotape   equals   Scotch tape
>
> Yeah, and "rubbers" are erasers............. I still laugh when I think of
> the time I was at the library doing homework with a guy I was dating (who was
> from the British Crown Colony of Hong Kong; this was during our freshman year
> in college) and he asked me if I had a rubber he could borrow........ I
> nearly died!
>
> Sparks
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:38:41 1999
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X-Path: ipa.net!gecko
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Tim Atwood" <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:41:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.11416.0>
Precedence: bulk

Fuck you Tim.

What kind of an asshole goes and sends something like this to my personal
address... knowing that I have already left the list because of assholes
like you.

You've been an asshole in everysingle post you ever made on the bungi list,
and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.

fuck you Tim.


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>; Glenna
Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:06 PM
Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


>> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
>> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
>> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they shall
>and shant do?<
>>
>
>I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
>the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this list.
>I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos, whats
>and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
>unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
>never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
>with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
>"nazi" as I can imagine.
>
>I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their time,
>computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
>the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for all
>stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort it
>must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
>problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
>the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the stained
>glass community completely awesome.
>
>I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the free
>and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.
>
>Thank you Glenna!
>
>Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm
>
>

----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 15:53:16 1999
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From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93"
Subject: JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 14:40:35 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.74035.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi fellow bungians,

One of our members mentioned visiting Jade Cove in California, and it
set me to thinking about my own trip there as a child...and that started

me wanting to know more about Jade.

Here's a site which not ony explains what Jade is, but also shows
samples of
the various types and origins of Jade in the world.  It offers Jade
stones for sale,
but that's not the point of my passing on this URL...this is just for
education.  The
idea of using natural stones as sculptural elements in a stained glass
piece is
appealing...

http://galleries.com/minerals/gemstone/jade/jade.htm

Best regards,
Cheryl Ryder

--------------D4A1F174519DE7824F74AF93
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="jade.htm"
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	/jade/jade.htm"

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY><CENTER><B>

<a href="/default.htm" target=_top>Minerals</a>
|
<A href="/minerals/by-name.htm" target=_top>By_Name</A>
|
<a href="/minerals/by_class.htm" target=_top>By_Class</a>
|
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|
<a href="/scripts/search.exe" target=_top>Search</a>
|
<a href="/minerals/gemstone/class.htm" target=_top>Gemstones</a>
 
</B></CENTER>
<H2>
<A HREF="jade.jpg"><IMG SRC="jade.gif" ALIGN=MIDDLE HSPACE=2></A>
JADE, a gem variety of both Jadeite and Nephrite</H2>

<H3><B>VARIETY INFORMATION</B>:</H3>
<UL>
<LI><B>VARIETY OF: </b>both jadeite and nephrite
<LI><B>USES:</b> Gemstone and ornamental stone.
<LI><B>COLOR:</B> shades of emerald green as well as white, gray, yellow, orange and violet.
<LI><B>INDEX OF REFRACTION:</B> is approximately 1.66 (jadeite) and 1.62 (nephrite) 
<LI><B>HARDNESS:</B> 6.5 - 7
<LI><B>CLEAVAGE:</B> does not apply due to massive nature of jade
<LI><B>CRYSTAL SYSTEM:</B> monoclinic
<LI><B><A HREF="/scripts/item.exe?LIST+Minerals+Gemstones+Jade" >SPECIMENS</A></B>
</UL>
Jade is a name that was applied to ornamental stones that were being brought to Europe from China and Central America.
It wasn't until 1863 that it was realized that Jade was being applied to two different minerals.
The two minerals are both exquisite for the purposes that jade is put to task and are hard to distinguish from each other.
So what to do?
Leave it alone and call them both Jade!
<p>
<b><a href="/minerals/silicate/jadeite/jadeite.htm">Jadeite</a></b> is almost never found in individual crystals and is composed of microscopic interlocking crystals that produce a very tough material.
Nephrite is actually not a mineral, but a variety of the mineral 
<b><a href="/minerals/silicate/actinoli/actinoli.htm">actinolite</a></b>.
The nephrite variety is composed of fibrous crystals inter-twinned in a tough compact mass.
Other actinolite varieties are quite different from nephrite.
<p>
The toughness of jade is remarkable.
It has a strength greater than steel and was put to work by many early civilizations for axes, knives and weapons.
It was later that jade became a symbolic stone used in ornaments and other religious artifacts during the eons.
<p>
Today jade is still valued for its beauty.
Its many colors are appreciated, but its the emerald green color that jadeite produces so well, that is highly sought after by artwork collectors.
This emerald green jade called "Imperial Jade" is colored by chromium.
Other colors are influenced by iron (green and brown) and manganese is thought to produce the violet colors.
Nephrite is usually only green and creamy white, while jadeite can have the full range of jade's colors. 
<HR><TAIL><CENTER><B> 
<a href="/default.htm" target=_top>Minerals</a>
|
<A href="/minerals/by-name.htm" target=_top>By_Name</A>
|
<a href="/minerals/by_class.htm" target=_top>By_Class</a>
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|
<a href="/scripts/search.exe" target=_top>Search</a>
|
<a href="/minerals/gemstone/class.htm" target=_top>Gemstones</a>
 <br> 
</B><a href="/copyrite.htm">Copyright &copy; 1995,1996 by Amethyst Galleries, Inc.</a>
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 16:10:48 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!rrkerr
From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: meryder@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 15:40:50 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug1.84050.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.72447.0>>
Precedence: bulk

There are also jade deposits on the coast in British Columbia ... I've
seen then referred to as the Jade Cliffs of GC.  This info is available
everywhere.

Apparently you can get relatively large blocks of jade from these
deposits ... where relatively large = 2' to 3' square or even larger ...
just hearsay from the lapidary community of some time back ... I've
never seen one with my own eyes.

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
> there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
> break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
> walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
> family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
> was:  Jadite or
> Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
> in
> the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.
> 
> Best regards,
> Cheryl
> 
> Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
> 
> > when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> > into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> > jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> > 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> > of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> > mottling.
> >
> > it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
> >
> > regards,
> > charlie
> > phx, az
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > > To: glass@bungi.com
> > > Subject: New project
> > >
> > >
> > > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > > dolphin and a
> > > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > > Since I'm
> > > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> > >
> > > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> > >
> > > Dorothy
> > >
> > > ----
> > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> > >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:21:15 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: NG - class acts on bungi
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 19:59:22 -0400
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Hi everyone,

Just a quick word to let everyone know that
I have really appreciated the decency
and class exhibited  in communicating on bungi
the past four years.... it's very rare for anyone
to express themselves on this forum using
foul language... what makes it even more rare
is that it IS so rare in our rather un-civil society
today!  I, for one, really appreciate it... thanks.

Best regards,

Dani Greer

"When you lose your temper, it makes you wrong....
even when you're right."
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:33:17 1999
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From: diane_steele@joinme.com
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Subject: Long Time No see...
Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 19:16:19 -0400
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<HTML>
<BODY>

<FONT face=3D"MS Sans Serif">
<FONT size=3D2>              <BR>
<BR>
         <B> * Toss The 9 to 5 *<BR>
</B> <BR>
Does Financial Freedom Interest You?<BR>
How about being your own boss?<BR>
Working your own hours?<BR>
Answering ONLY to yourself?<BR>
Skydiving in Egypt? (just making sure you're listening)<BR>
<BR>
Are you interested in applying your skills towards the<BR>
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If you are motivated, trainable and serious about starting<BR>
a home-based business, then we would like to talk with you!<BR>
Reply with name, address, phone number and the best time<BR>
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 17:50:39 1999
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: The E-Tour....Lift-Off
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@pop3.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 01:14:31 +0000
Message-ID: <199908020021.AAA20955@saturn.nildram.co.uk>
Precedence: bulk



Hi Everybody,

It's one o'clock in the morning UK tim.....YOU are between 6 - 8 
hours behind us. I have JUST packed my suitcases.....AND tool-box.
By the time you read this..... I will be somewhere over the Atlantic.
I'll see you in the next few days!!!!

Elisabeth 'n stay-at-home-Toby (who will need a lot of support...    
:-<    )
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 20:02:15 1999
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From: "Michele Spruill" <mrsdesigns@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 19:27:54 PDT
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The big move is done and I have time to read/think about glass again.
Hooray!  M


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 23:03:47 1999
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From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG - class acts on bungi
Date: Sun Aug  1 22:19:29 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.195729.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.155922.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

dani
if i read it correctly, the message was sent to tim privately and he
forwarded it to the list

i am not sticking up for blake, but i am i correct that blake did not send
it to the list?


debbie

taylor'd Expressions
"Your complete art glass supply source."
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
1-888-488-9616 (toll free)

----- Original Message -----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 7:59 PM
Subject: NG - class acts on bungi


> Hi everyone,
>
> Just a quick word to let everyone know that
> I have really appreciated the decency
> and class exhibited  in communicating on bungi
> the past four years.... it's very rare for anyone
> to express themselves on this forum using
> foul language... what makes it even more rare
> is that it IS so rare in our rather un-civil society
> today!  I, for one, really appreciate it... thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dani Greer
>
> "When you lose your temper, it makes you wrong....
> even when you're right."
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  1 23:25:12 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun Aug  1 22:22:02 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.2002.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.11416.0>>
Organization: taylor'd Expressions
Precedence: bulk

was this not sent to you personally? why is it appearing on bungi?

debbie

taylor'd Expressions
"Your complete art glass supply source."
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
1-888-488-9616 (toll free)

----- Original Message -----
From: Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>
To: Tim Atwood <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


> Fuck you Tim.
>
> What kind of an asshole goes and sends something like this to my personal
> address... knowing that I have already left the list because of assholes
> like you.
>
> You've been an asshole in everysingle post you ever made on the bungi
list,
> and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.
>
> fuck you Tim.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
> To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>; Glenna
> Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
> Date: Sunday, August 01, 1999 4:06 PM
> Subject: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)
>
>
> >> Message text written by "Blake, Wayne, & Susan"
> >> Ok.  Where are all the mailing list nazi's coming from?!?!
> >> Who joins a list, and then tries to dictate to the others what they
shall
> >and shant do?<
> >>
> >
> >I just wanted to thank Glenna publicly (and also Dave, Kelsea, and Keela,
> >the wonder-cat) for their exceptional patience in administering this
list.
> >I know when I first joined the Bung list I did not know all the whos,
whats
> >and whys.  I made several bad gaffs back then and sometimes I still make
> >unfortunate remarks in the heat of the moment.  Throughout it all, I have
> >never seen anything besides patience and kindness from Glenna in dealing
> >with everything.  All in all, I think Glenna is about as far from being a
> >"nazi" as I can imagine.
> >
> >I have also come to understand that Glenna and Dave contribute their
time,
> >computer space and bandwidth for this list.  They also attempt to archive
> >the glass information from these discussions as a pool of knowledge for
all
> >stained glass artists.  I can only begin to imagine the time and effort
it
> >must take to archive this huge volume of information and how much of a
> >problem all the non-glass discussions must cause for the archive.  I find
> >the fact that Glenna does all this as a totally free service to the
stained
> >glass community completely awesome.
> >
> >I for one am happy to follow any rules which help this list remain the
free
> >and totally amazing service to the stained glass community it is.
> >
> >Thank you Glenna!
> >
> >Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm
> >
> >
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 06:40:11 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: new project
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 07:25:55 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.12555.0>
Precedence: bulk

A friend of mine, used to work in a gold mine, and over a period of years
picked up a pickup load of interesting rocks.  I sent some to my brother to
slice for me (he used his ceramic tile wet cutter).  Then one of the people
in my stained glass class asked to use a selection of them in a southwestern
scene.  The rocks were filled with natural semi-precious stone formations,
such as turquoise and amethyst.  These stones were very rough around the
edges, but she was still able to foil.  She overlapped in some areas.  Our
instructor knew of a spray to treat them that gave them a smooth shiney
surface on the front,  the same effect as if they had been polished, so they
blended well with the glass.  This project had a great impact on me...the
colors going through the natural stones added a great depth to her project.
They added weight and a naturalness that was haunting.   It was one of those
pieces of stained glass that stays in your mind because it was so unusual.

I  have a box full of these stone slices and some geodes waiting for just
the right project.  But so far, I am keeping myself on my piggie of a
tesselation.  I have cut all my pieces and ground to fit, I am firing the
pieces in batches now to round the edges and add texture.  I keep thinking
of the foiling....and I am now wondering if this would look good as a
mosaic?  Ok...I have chicken feet!  cj

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 06:55:16 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: Pat Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Robert & Jeanne <keane@heesun.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New soldering iron
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:01:13 -0400
Message-ID: <37A59698.66B4C6BB@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Jul31.183439.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Mary,

As you look for a new iron, do keep in mind whether your rheostat is a
"two-prong" or a "three-prong" type.  If it can accommodate a three-prong
plug then you have all the choices in irons, but if it has two, then
so must your iron (unless you buy a new rheostat).

Good luck in your search!

PJ Jellison

> 
> At 09:21 PM 7/31/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Hi all... (posted to two lists, so please forgive repeat)
> >I am in the market for a new soldering iron, and want to purchase the best
> >one available. I have a rheostat already, so just need the iron.
> >Thanks in advance!
> >Mary
> >
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 07:56:50 1999
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From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Scented glass
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 09:02:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.5237.0>
Precedence: bulk

A year or more ago when I was wondering about uses for tumbled glass,
several people mentioned that it would hold a scent well (those
concentrated oils you can buy at craft stores).  Well, I did finallly
get around to trying it out and so far, so good (it's been about two
weeks and my little bowl of tumbled glass is still smelling as strong as
ever.)  So I'm going to make little cubes and bag up the glass...
Of course, when I started to put together a cube last night, I heard
that dreadful pop of glass cracking....  The glass was so textured, it
took me a long time to see the crack, so I figured the first cube will
make a nice demo model!  Looks pretty good, smells wonderfully.

And the temperature has dropped AND the humidity has dropped, so
soldering will not be an icky chore.  We also need to pour a concrete
slab for some repair work for the house and will be able to do it in the
evening, I think.

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 08:17:18 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Geodes used in glass
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:15:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.61558.0>
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Message text written by "Dawn Marie Barker"
>Someone on the list mentioned using geodes in a  waterfall panel.  I =3D=

have seen geodes used in box lids before - but cannot for the life of me =
=3D
figure out how to foil the crinkly, porous edges of the geodes I have... =
=3D
can anyone tell me?<

Get foil wide enough to cover the crinkly, porous edges of the geode
and go to with with hand-foiling.  Nothing magical.  Just hard labor.

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 08:17:21 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Agate Slabs
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 10:16:00 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.6160.0>
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Message text written by David
>Does any one know of any (or many) links r't jade or agate slabs?<

You might try Fire Mountain Gems.  They have everything for stones,
etc.  1-800423-2319

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 11:49:03 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 11:20:46 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.42046.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.2002.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

I am sending this message to all of bungi because there appears to be some
confusion where many people on bungi appear to believe a message containing
offensive language came from me.  This is to clarify that it in fact did not
come from me.  Due to the offensive nature of the original message, I will
make all further replies regarding this matter privately only.

1. I absolutely DID NOT forward this to Bungi.  While I am not always as
tactful as I should be, I would never forward such a message to a general
list.  And even if I was to forward it to some particular individuals (which
I did not), I would always delete the offensive language as in the copy
below.

2. If I am reading the properties of the original message correctly, "Blake,
Wayne, & Susan" cc'd the entire Bungi group.  The properties listing from
the message I received at 2:41 pm follows.  Please note the "Cc:" entry.

3. For some reason, "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" then sent a second copy of the
message to me without the "Cc:" which I received at 3:48pm.  It appears
"Blake, Wayne, & Susan" also sent this second copy directly to certain
individuals, some of whom used their direct copies for replying rather than
the bungi cc'd copy.

4. If I am reading the text from some of the replies I am receiving
correctly, it would appear "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" overrode the "reply to"
on the second copy to be myself rather than him/them (many e-mail clients
allow specifying a different "reply to" than the actual sender).  The copy I
received did not have this "reply to" override, so I am not able to show
this directly.

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Message-ID: <01da01bedc66$90b4de60$81c502cf@kindred>
From: "Blake, Wayne, & Susan" <gecko@ipa.net>
To: "Tim Atwood" <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
Cc: "Bungi Group" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 16:41:06 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Status:
....etc

Thank you - Tim Atwood

----- Original Message -----
From: <daver!one.net!kleeman@dns.cyberlink.bc.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)


> was this not sent to you personally? why is it appearing on bungi?
>
> debbie
>
> taylor'd Expressions
> "Your complete art glass supply source."
> kleeman@one.net
> http://www.taylordexpressions.com/
> 1-888-488-9616 (toll free)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Blake, Wayne, & Susan <gecko@ipa.net>
> To: Tim Atwood <tim@holtenwood.bc.ca>
> Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 5:41 PM
> Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG Griping!)
>
>
> > <explicative deleted> you Tim.
> >
> > What kind of an <explicative deleted> goes and sends something like this
to my personal
> > address... knowing that I have already left the list because of
<explicative deleted>
> > like you.
> >
> > You've been an <explicative deleted> in everysingle post you ever made
on the bungi
> list,
> > and you're letter cc'd to me only furthers the proof.
> >
> > <explicative deleted> you Tim.
> >
> >




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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 12:20:53 1999
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From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
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unsubscribe
Fantasy In Glass, 703 The Queensway, Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 =
(Tel:416-252-6868)
Canada's first and yes, still its only officially sanctioned stained =
glass supplier.


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 14:22:12 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: NG Thank You Glenna! (was Re: NG  Griping!)
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:06:14 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.12614.0>
Precedence: bulk

Whether the post from Blake was personal
or public isn't the issue.... it was abusive and
low-class behaviour in any case.  Yuck.  I =

had thought better of him.... very disappointing.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:32:14 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "2 Suzanne de Tulsa" <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Putty questions
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 16:03:32 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.9332.0>
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I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
liquid to make the putty flow like honey.

Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?

I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?

Bob

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:49:55 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: new project
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 15:59:52 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.85952.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.12555.0>>
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Dear Claudette...
It sounds like it's going to be beautiful....

Re the rocks and stones....there's a wonderful technique that the jewelers use
to use solder to make "fingers" to hold rocks and stones and jewels and crystals

in 3-D formats...like on Kaleidoscopes...  your beautiful turquoise and other
stones
might decorate a piece you make, using that technique.

Regards,
Cheryl Ryder


Claudette Jaramillo wrote:

> A friend of mine, used to work in a gold mine, and over a period of years
> picked up a pickup load of interesting rocks.  I sent some to my brother to
> slice for me (he used his ceramic tile wet cutter).  Then one of the people
> in my stained glass class asked to use a selection of them in a southwestern
> scene.  The rocks were filled with natural semi-precious stone formations,
> such as turquoise and amethyst.  These stones were very rough around the
> edges, but she was still able to foil.  She overlapped in some areas.  Our
> instructor knew of a spray to treat them that gave them a smooth shiney
> surface on the front,  the same effect as if they had been polished, so they
> blended well with the glass.  This project had a great impact on me...the
> colors going through the natural stones added a great depth to her project.
> They added weight and a naturalness that was haunting.   It was one of those
> pieces of stained glass that stays in your mind because it was so unusual.
>
> I  have a box full of these stone slices and some geodes waiting for just
> the right project.  But so far, I am keeping myself on my piggie of a
> tesselation.  I have cut all my pieces and ground to fit, I am firing the
> pieces in batches now to round the edges and add texture.  I keep thinking
> of the foiling....and I am now wondering if this would look good as a
> mosaic?  Ok...I have chicken feet!  cj
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 16:56:20 1999
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X-Path: domesticity.net!bethanie
From: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 06:26:15 -0400
Message-ID: <l03130300b3cb215f05ec@[192.168.0.3]>
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Greetings all!

Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
preference for the practical.)

Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!

Thanks!

....Bethanie....


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 17:55:35 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New project
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 16:01:30 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.9130.0>
References: <<1999Aug1.84050.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi,

I was wondering from which part of Canada the Canadian Jade I've seen
listed on the Gem sites had originated....now I know.

Many thanks and best regards,
Cheryl

rrk wrote:

> There are also jade deposits on the coast in British Columbia ... I've
> seen then referred to as the Jade Cliffs of GC.  This info is available
> everywhere.
>
> Apparently you can get relatively large blocks of jade from these
> deposits ... where relatively large = 2' to 3' square or even larger ...
> just hearsay from the lapidary community of some time back ... I've
> never seen one with my own eyes.
>
> meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> >
> > There is a "Jade Cove" along the middle California Coast, where
> > there is a natural jade deposit out in the ocean.  Wave and storm surge actions
> > break up parts of the deposit and wash them ashore.  It used to be  possible to
> > walk on the beach and collect bits of the jade.  I was very, very young when my
> > family visited there, so I can't recall which of the two type of Jade mineral it
> > was:  Jadite or
> > Nephrite.  I just remember it was dark green. I remember that the "shell shops"
> > in
> > the area used the jade bits in their shell sculptures and tourist trinkets.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Cheryl
> >
> > Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
> >
> > > when i toured US 1 on the california coast a number of years ago, i stopped
> > > into a rock shop in big sur. this is one of the places that they get natural
> > > jade from in the us. i purchased a few oblong slices, each about 1/4" to
> > > 1/8" thick, for exactly this use: foiled and placed in a panel at the bottom
> > > of a waterfall. they are a beautiful, translucent, bluish-green with great
> > > mottling.
> > >
> > > it might also be a good place to use sliced geodes.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > > charlie
> > > phx, az
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Family Account [mailto:shad@mail2.nai.net]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 5:35 PM
> > > > To: glass@bungi.com
> > > > Subject: New project
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Now I'm figuring out the best way to make a realistic (okay,
> > > > semi-realistic) waterfall...in a panel including a leaping
> > > > dolphin and a
> > > > rainbow.  (Same lady as the dolphin/earth/crop circle lady).
> > > > Since I'm
> > > > just at the concept stage, I thought I'd ask if anyone has done a
> > > > waterfall they are particularly proud of and any tips?
> > > >
> > > > My husband is busy playing a tug game with our vaccinated, liscensed
> > > > dog, which requires much barking on the dog's part.
> > > >
> > > > Dorothy
> > > >
> > > > ----
> > > > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> > > >
> > > ----
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> > > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> ----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 19:34:24 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: new project
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 21:38:46 -0400
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Precedence: bulk

8/2/99 6:59 PM meryder@pacbell.net meryder@pacbell.net

>
>Re the rocks and stones....there's a wonderful technique that the jewelers 
>use
>to use solder to make "fingers" to hold rocks and stones and jewels and 
>crystals

Sounds interesting. Can you tell me more about it?

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 20:08:13 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 21:00:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.17024.0>
References: <<l03130300b3cb215f05ec@[192.168.0.3]>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Bethanie Brown wrote:
> 
> Greetings all!
> 
> Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
> couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
> projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
> multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
> should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
> or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
> preference for the practical.)
> 
> Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
> any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> ....Bethanie....
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i recomened stained glass boxes simplified II - CKE publishing - by J.
Floyd. it's where i learned how to make the 5 piece lid.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 20:38:52 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Beveler4
From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 22:16:21 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.21621.0>
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Well I said that I'd report what was new at Kokomo,not really thinking that 
there would be much to report but boy was I wrong.They have a new texture 
that they are adding to their line of glass and it is awesome.They are also 
back to making Slab Glass (aka.Dalle de Verra glass) again and they have a 
new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their own 
corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on 
handblown objects right now with plans to get into blown flat glass. they 
have pretty much freedom to do about whatever they desire(tough job). Kokomo 
also plans on getting into thr fusing market they are going to send me the 
info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the 
catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what 
the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 21:46:54 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Bethanie Brown" <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:31:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.133134.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
or enjoy. <<

I recommend that you purchase a complete kaleidoscope kit and put it
together. You will find that there are also stripped down kits available for
some K-scopes and you can progress on to them. After a while you can buy
sheet front surface mirror and buy nothing in kit form.

Once you have made a few K-scopes you will have a good handle on the
problems with working in 3-D. BTW, K-scopes are something that is very
popular with all ages.

Bob (who hasn't made a scope in a long time)

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 22:20:30 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Beveler4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:58:14 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.135814.0>
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>>). Kokomo
also plans on getting into the fusing market they are going to send me the
info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the
catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what
the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)<<

Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success with
it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.

Bob


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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 22:21:38 1999
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X-Path: texcom-mail.army.mil!kellypatrick
From: "Patrick Kelly" <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
To: <glass@bungi.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG: E Tour
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 23:00:08 -0500
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I am afraid..... very afraid..... Fee Fi Fo Fum..... I smell the scent of =
an Englishman (or woman).

I sense the presence of a furinor..... (Texas talk)

Let's play a game...... Instead of "Where's Elmo".... Its "Where's "E" . =
Or instead of  "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego" its.... Where in =
the US is "E the Brit (or Swede)".

I'll go first .....I think she is in Pennsylvania. The day she arrived =
there was a tornado in Va., so I know she is hunting for me..... HELP! =
Close but no cigar "E"... Better luck next time....smile


Help me keep track of her .... my passport has expired and I need to keep =
one step ahead of her ... or my gnomon will be in peril....again.


Patrick
Roses and Rainbows



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From owner-glass Mon Aug  2 23:13:28 1999
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From: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
To: Bethanie Brown <bethanie@domesticity.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Beginning 3D projects
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 00:12:38 -0400 (EDT)
Message-ID: <199908030412.AAA13028@hpamraaa.compuserve.com>
Precedence: bulk

A flat panel lamp under your belt before a tiffany is helpful.
I love Carol Conte's pattern.  For a lamp that has more pieces
and pushes the skill level I like the Odassey form and pattern
of your choice.  Have made a lamp form/pattern myself but it is VERY
labor intensive and frustrating.

>Greetings all!
>
>Just thrilled to be joining the list! I've been working mainly in 2D for a
>couple of years now, and am ready to move into 3D. Does anyone have any
>projects/books/etc. they would recommend for a good start in the
>multi-dimensional world? I want something I'll be successful at -- and it
>should also be something that results in a piece that I'll be able to use
>or enjoy. (Yes, this is a matter of taste, but thought I'd express my
>preference for the practical.)
>
>Eventually, I want to work my way up to making a replica Tiffany lamp --
>any sources for those patterns would be greatly welcomed, as well!
>
>Thanks!
>
>....Bethanie....
>
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 00:40:39 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Patrick Kelly <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: NG: E Tour
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 01:41:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug2.20415.0>
References: <<s7a6230d.076@texcom.army.mil>>
Precedence: bulk

I think she brought a cool breeze with her. :o) 
Wish this meant I could pack a sweater!  
The temp is actually down to 80* tonight and it feels cool! 
We even had a slight sprinkle.
So I'm guessing she is somewhere in the heartland. ;o)

Suzanne
-- 
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 01:04:30 1999
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From: "laurie good" <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 00:18:19 PDT
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Precedence: bulk


Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


_______________________________________________________________
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: hanging trout 3-d lamp
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 06:42:23 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.104223.0>
Precedence: bulk


Hi all-

For those who like fish check out this hanging 3-d trout lamp at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=138477405

pretty neat- would live to find out where the hardware comes from..

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 06:38:23 1999
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From: Beveler4@aol.com
To: glassx@bardstown.com
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Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:07:37 EDT
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Hi Ricki,
I don't work for Kokomo I just went there to pick up some glass for my shop 
and studio,I,m not sure that they have an E-mail list that they send to 
regularly or not I will talk to them and see, and if they do I'll tell them 
to include you.I have a commission studio in Indiana and a retail store in 
Cinti,Oh.that I have to keep supplied,my next trip will be back to Columbus 
Oh where I get most of my glass and supplies,then probably a trip to Blenko 
in W.Va. to pick up some of their blown glass.I also forgot to mention the 
name of the new texture in my last letter it is "Vertigo" a very swirly 
texture not like baroque, this has a very definite pattern to it.
I also forgot to mention that they are going to start producing Rondels there 
at Kokomo, that should be interesting. Beveler4(Stan)
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:03:52 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Glass question...maybe....
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:46:37 +0000
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> Does anyone know when the next Glass Exhibition that they have in
> Las = Vegas is going to be next year.  I checked with IGGA and Art
> Glass = World..no info.  Isn't usually in March?

Glenna's right: March 9-12, 2000. And thanks for pointing that out, 
'cause I hadn't updated the listing on the IGGA site (it's under "Las 
Vegas Management," the company that mounts the show, but using the 
"Search this site" tool will turn it up, too).

Their Tampa FL show's set for Sept. 30 - Oct. 3, 1999.

Albert
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:12:36 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, 'Patrick, Kelly'
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: E Tour
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:51:35 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.45135.0>
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Patrick 

Look at the bright side.
At least the mutton loving Toby is still in the UK.
It's just a match of skills and wit between you and our lovely Viking,
Elisabeth.
I'd be afraid too.

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com> 

PS I'm putting my money on the Viking. Any takers?

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	Patrick Kelly
[mailto:kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 12:00 AM
		To:	glass@bungi.COM
		Subject:	NG: E Tour

		I am afraid..... very afraid..... Fee Fi Fo Fum..... I smell
the scent of =
		an Englishman (or woman).

		I sense the presence of a furinor..... (Texas talk)

		Let's play a game...... Instead of "Where's Elmo".... Its
"Where's "E" . =
		Or instead of  "Where in the World is Carmen San Diego"
its.... Where in =
		the US is "E the Brit (or Swede)".

		I'll go first .....I think she is in Pennsylvania. The day
she arrived =
		there was a tornado in Va., so I know she is hunting for
me..... HELP! =
		Close but no cigar "E"... Better luck next time....smile


		Help me keep track of her .... my passport has expired and I
need to keep =
		one step ahead of her ... or my gnomon will be in
peril....again.


		Patrick
		Roses and Rainbows



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 07:42:41 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:52:30 -0400
Message-ID: <199908031253.IAA06518@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Precedence: bulk

8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
>
1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the 
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between 
the glass.
4) Have fun!

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:05:59 1999
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X-Path: fn3.freenet.tlh.fl.us!gonzalj
From: Jim Gonzalez <gonzalj@freenet.tlh.fl.us>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Bullseye Web site round II
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
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>From rec.crafts.glass:

>Technical information about kilnworking with Bullseye's Tested Compatible
>glasses and product information about Bullseye's glasses for stained
>glass,
>kilnworking, lampworking and blowing is now available at
>
>  http://www.bullseye-glass.com
>
>We hope you find this resource useful!
>
>Mary Kay 
>Bullseye Glass Co.
>marykaynitchie@bullseye-glass.com

I tried the URL this morning and it worked.
Jim

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:25:41 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: beginning 3D projects
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 08:27:32 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.22732.0>
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Bethanie, take a look at Mike Savad's web page on boxes.  I didn't buy a
book, I just saw his, and was inspired. (I made a very simple vase first and
then branched into hinges and a lid).   I do recommend some sort of holder
for the sides when assembling.  I made mine at my welding class,  that way I
get perfect 90 degree angles.  I made a lot of these boxes for Christmas
presents.  In fact Mike was the one who inspired me to order a bunch of
agates for the covers.  Everyone loved them.  I made a few for our local
guild's 4th of July sale and all of them sold.  Using bevels is another
excellent way to begin.  But be careful...they can be ever so slightly off
square, you have to spend the time to check and grind.  They are many ways
to make the hinges for boxes and you may want to consult the archives...or
just write to Mike (he helped me there too.)  I have learned three methods
and use each for different applications.  I prefer making my own now that I
know how.  It saves money and time...but I recommend not starting there.

As far as practical uses, I made a few vases for my dresser to hold my hair
spray, hand lotion, and even a kleenex box holder.  I made small 2 x 2 bevel
vases for holding the 'sweet & low', and found out from SG news that those
small boxes that motrin, etc come in make perfect liners (just paint the
outside).  My granddaughter who has made only four projects with me, made a
darling 3" x 3" post-it note holder for her grandfather for Father's Day.
(Which reminds me, I wait to cut the bottom until I have the four sides
together, to check for fit.)

You will have to show us your first one....it always inspires me to see the
work of others...and to hear the lessons learned.  Since I am a beginner
too, I especially like to hear from other beginners....the 'glass
challenged' like to hear about other's challenges!!  Once you finish the
first one, it does get easier...I promise.  Of course to inspire to do work
like Mike, is a worthwhile endeavor.  cj



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:26:38 1999
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From: NEICYDENN@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:01:54 EDT
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In a message dated 8/3/1999 3:05:30 AM Central Daylight Time, 
lauriegood@hotmail.com writes:

<< Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put 
some 
 wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
 some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie 
>>

Laurie,

I just finished a small teddy bear sun catcher for my daughter. She pressed 
some flowers from the garden, I put them between 2 clear pieces of glass in 
the tummy section of the bear. The flowers I used were all the same thickness 
(thin) so when sandwiched between the glass they don't move, then just foil 
together. I think if you were to use thick flowers, like daisies, it might 
not work. As far as adhesives, maybe a spray on one wouldn't show through the 
glass.

Good luck,
Denise
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:50:47 1999
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From: glasscc <joyce@mail.bright.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 07:44:52 -0400
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At 12:18 AM 8/3/99 PDT, laurie good wrote:
>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some 
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need 
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


No adhesive is necessary, but sandwiching them between the pieces of glass
can be tricky.  I clean both pieces of glass, and usually use one side as a
bevel to frame my flowers somewhat.  I then foil both pieces of glass and
place the flowers carefully in between and then use some clamps with
cardboard as a cushion to make sure I don't fracture the glass.  I try to
place the clamps equally so that I don't cause too much pressure on two
sides causing the glass to break.  After I get that in place I put another
thicker foil around both pieces of glass to make sure no flux gets in
between the two pieces.  I then solder it into my piece making sure to try
to center the thick piece, so that it's not hanging too much to the front
or the back.

If I'm sandwiching the flowers between two bevels, I make sure to tin them
first and clean and polish them, and then use a dry flux brush to spot
solder where they criss cross each other.

Joyce



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 08:57:01 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:06:44 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.5644.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by INTERNET:Beveler4@aol.com
>They are also =

back to making Slab Glass (aka.Dalle de Verra glass) again and they have =
a =

new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their o=
wn

corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on =

handblown objects right now with plans to get into blown flat glass. they=
 =

have pretty much freedom to do about whatever they desire(tough job).<

Kokomo Art Glass (the division which is the blown glass) was at this past=

weekend's Buyers Market of American Craft wholesale show in Philadelphia.=

I met the 2 glass blowers.  Nice, skinny fellas, similar to almost all
glass blowers
I've met.  Their product line for giftwares is along the same lines as th=
e
Youghiogheny Art Glass hot glass company.  This was the KOG guys first
outting into the wholesale gift market.  They said they did resonably wel=
l
for
their first outting, and would be making some changes to their product li=
ne
to
better meet the needs of the people who were buying.  It looked first-rat=
e.
Good glass.  Nice color combos.  They were working on paperweights, glass=

corporate trophies, sculptures, etc.  Nice stuff though.

Christie Wood
Art Glass Ensembles
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 09:24:20 1999
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X-Path: one.net!kleeman
From: one.net!kleeman
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue Aug  3 08:37:08 1999
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.6158.0>
References: <<199908031253.IAA06518@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

	you may want to also use a little food coloring on the petals of the flowers to keep them
from fading as fast....

debbie taylor
kleeman@one.net
http://www.taylordexpressions.com
your complete stained glass supply source
1-888-488-9616

-----Original Message-----
From: suzy@comcat.com [mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:53 AM
To: glass bungi line
Subject: Re: wildflowers


8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

>
>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some
>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
>
1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between
the glass.
4) Have fun!

suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 09:42:38 1999
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X-Path: ctronsoft.com!vmodiano
From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, "'suzy@comcat.com'" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:09:14 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.7914.0>
Precedence: bulk

I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you don't need to
use flux at all.
Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great. Should work with a
"wildflower sandwich".

Vic M.
Vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	suzy@comcat.com [mailto:suzy@ComCAT.COM]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:53 AM
		To:	glass bungi line
		Subject:	Re: wildflowers

		8/3/99 3:18 AM laurie good lauriegood@hotmail.com

		>
		>Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.
I've just put some 
		>wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a
try. Do you need 
		>some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the
glass?  Thanks, Laurie
		>
		1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in
place.
		2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints
on the 
		insides of both pieces before you solder.
		3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can
seep between 
		the glass.
		4) Have fun!

		suzanne albright
		suzy@comcat.com

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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: laurie good <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:52:07 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.1527.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.71819.0>>
Precedence: bulk



laurie good wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put some
> wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
> some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie


My best friend runs a wildflower seed biz online and knows quite a bit
about everything that has to do with wildflowers including the things
you're asking about.  I suggest you go to one of her sites,
http://www.prairiefrontier.com will do, send her an email (her name is
Deb and tell her I said to ask her <smile>) with your question, and
she'll answer.  If she doesn't know herself (she probably does) then
she'll tell you who does know.  Her site has won lots of awards, been
advertised in the WSJ, Time, Newsweek by Link Exchange, is constantly
referenced on HGTV, and is referenced by many other sites like the USDA
and so on because she has a mountain of information about wildflowers
there, particularly native American wildflowers.

Regards ... Bob
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 10:03:39 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:01:30 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.2130.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>1) A very small dab of rubber cement to hold the flowers in place.
2) Clean, clean, clean! Make sure there are no fingerprints on the
insides of both pieces before you solder.
3) Use the least amount of flux you can, so none of it can seep between
the glass.<<

I use the smallest amount of Elmer's Glue that will do the job to hold the
flower arrangement in place and let the glue dry before assembling it to the
glass. Otherwise the glue may smudge out into an unsightly blot.

For the LEAST amount of flux I dampen a paper towel with flux and lightly
rub the flux on the copper to be soldered.

Good luck, Bob

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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Elisabeth you've arrived-welcome!!
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 09:06:49 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.2649.0>
References: <<3.0.3.32.19990802190454.0096ba70@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>>
Organization: Moswood Mountain Limited
Precedence: bulk

To our lovely Elisabeth!!

A huge welcome to the United States of America Elisabeth from all of us on the
E-Tour and I'm sure from all of Bungiland!!

Glad your finally here and I'll see you in Seattle!!

Love

Pam





Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 10:32:03 1999
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To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 08:32:41 -0700
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
> for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
> liquid to make the putty flow like honey.
> 
> Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
> for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
> starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?
> 
> I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
> standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
> clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?



>From various places on da net.

****************************

Linseed oil, derived from flax (linseeds), is a major ingredient in many
fine oil paints, varnishes and stains. Linseed oil contains a mixture of
glycerides of unsaturated fatty acids: linolenic, linoleic, oleic,
stearic, palmitic, myristic. [Merck Index, 8th ed.] The oil dries by air
oxidation to solid (or viscous) products.

Linoleum is a flooring that is manufactured by oxidizing linseed oil to
form a thick mixture called linoleum cement. The cement is cooled and
mixed with pine resin, and wood flour to form sheets on a jute backing. 

Blown Linseed Oils are polymerized by oxidation to increase viscosity
and acid number. Blown Linseed is used as a wetting agent for printing
inks and a grinding media. In coatings applications, Blown Linseed is
used as a plasticizer for leather, non-pentatrating finishes, caulks and
weather -proofing compounds. Blown Linseed Oils dry faster than
heat-bodied linseed oils. 

****************************

 OK.  I can see it will take longer to find someone else's explanation
on da net (assuming its even there) than it will to simply type it out. 
So ... here we go.

The question is whether to use boiled or raw linseed oil for making
putty ... and how much linseed oil (raw or boiled) is necessary.

Now, linseed oil of either type (raw or boiled) polymerizes in the
presence of oxygen to form a cross-linked polymer.

What happens is that the carbon-carbon double bond (the unsaturated part
of unsaturated fatty acids above) of the fatty glycerides forms a
peroxide from a reaction with oxygen in the air.  This peroxide is
(relatively) unstable and then forms a (highly) unstable and very
reactive free radical.  The free radical of one fatty acid reacts with
the carbon-carbon double bond of another fatty acid to form a
carbon-carbon bond .... thereby forming a dimer ... two molecules bonded
together ... the first part of a chain.  This reaction repeats itself
forming a trimer ... three molecules bonded together ... and so on 
until a very long chain is formed ... a polymer.

When you "boil" linseed oil, or thermally treat linseed oil, the
peroxide is made; 1/3rd of the reaction is already done.  Since making
the perioxide is the slow step, this speeds up the overall process
tremendously.  So, when you buy boiled linseed oil, you're probably
buying Linseed Oil Peroxide.

This is exactly how they make poly(ethylene) and poly(propylene) btw. 
Ethylene gas is reacted with oxygen gas at high temperature and in the
presence of a catalyst (another substance to speed things up) to make
ethylene oxide.  The ethylene oxide degrades to a free radical and
attacks another molecule of ethylene forming the chain as described
above.

Tung Oil, and other similar products, work in exactly the same manner
differing only in the mixture of fatty acids on the glycerides and
perhaps the fatty acids themselves are a little different.

OK.  So what does this have to do with mongolian sword swallowers?

Well ... when you mix boiled linseed oil with whiting to make putty,
oxygen from the air needed for the first step of the reaction is no
longer present ... or not much.  However, the oxygen from the air is no
longer needed ... since the peroxide is already formed ... and the
polymerization reaction can continue in the absence of oxygen.  That is,
the putty will harden up anyway ... it will harden up (polymerize) in
the absence of oxygen in the air.

When you mix raw linseed oil with whiting, it will probably never make
the first step, or VERY slowly since there is no oxygen available for
the reaction.  That is, the putty will never harden up, or very very
very very slowly, decades probably, maybe never.

The evaporation of turpentine (which functions as a solvent, or diluent)
will thicken the putty, but the evaporation will not harden up the
putty.  The turpentine basically thins out the boiled linseed oil so you
can mix it better, more completely that is, with the whiting with a lot
less effort.

In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
harden up, use raw linseed oil.

Now if you add enough boiled linseed oil to make a putty, you've
probably got enough linseed oil.  Just guessing ... but 25% is probably
sufficient though maybe on the low side.  Remember, the whiting itself
is a dilutent vis-a-vis the linseed oil, and if you dilute the boiled
linseed oil with TOO much whiting, it will not be able to form the
proper polymer, maybe not even polymerize at all, and your putty will
probably crumble up rather easily.  If you use too much turpentine (say
like 90/10), there might not be enough boiled linseed oil to form a good
solid matrix with the whiting and the final product rather crumbly.  I
do think that 75 turpentine 25 boiled linseed oil might be cutting it a
bit close ... yielding an inadequate final product.  To be on the safe
side, you might consider staying in the 70/30 to 30/70 range ... maybe
even the 60/40 to 40/60 range.  The exact quantities can only be
determined empirically by yourself though.  If you have good results
with 50/50 ... why change? In any case, from a strictly business point
of view, the real cost is your time, not the cost of turpentine, whiting
and linseed oil (raw or boiled).  You don't want to shortchange your
customers, but as long as you know you're doing things right (in this
case, putting sufficient linseed oil in), you aren't shortchanging them.

Now I'm just guessing on some of this (mainly the last paragraph) ...
but I'm probably pretty close.

The above is my best guess anyway ... I'm not a specialist in polymer
chemistry, though I ran this by my wife, who IS a polymer chemist, and
she agreed with me. [No harm in double-checking is there <G>]

Hope this helps.

Best regards ........ Bob
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Whats New at Kokomo, and where I saw it....
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 12:26:14 EDT
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In a message dated 8/2/99 11:41:07 PM, Beveler4@aol.com writes:

>they have a 
>new hand blown glass area where they employ two blowers that have their
>own corner of the factory with glory holes and kilns etc.They are working on
>handblown objects right now

KOG had a booth at the Buyers' Market of American Craft (the humongous 
wholesale contemporary art craft show that was held at the Convention Center 
in Philly over the wekend...... I was able to get a pass thanks to Christie, 
who was coordinating the IGGA booth and showing her work there along with 4 
or 5 other IGGA artists).

KOG showed an assortment of blown glass bowls, vases, sculptures, etc. - 
nothing too far-out, mostly one or two colors, or one color in clear, and no 
really wild colors, but very nice work.

Yough had a booth too; I seem to recall that their stuff was a bit wilder 
than KOG's (although there was so much to see, it all sort of became a blur 
in my mind after a while!).

That was quite a show in general........ about a thousand exhibitors in all 
kinds of media. Lots of blown glass of all kinds, some fused glass, and a 
little bit of stained glass, both copperfoil and mosaic work - as well as 
pottery, wood, metal, fiber, jewelry, clocks, fountains, scultpure...... I 
went around with my jaw dragging on the floor. Everything from "mainstream" 
production stuff to one-of-a-kind pieces like you'd see in a gallery or 
museum.

The coolest thing was getting to meet most of the artists whose work I know 
from the retail side of Christie's shop, and to see some of the other things 
they're doing. Also met Bandhu Scott Dunham (one of the gods of 
lampworking/flameworking) - a very nice guy, as were all the artists I talked 
with.


Sparks
    who came away so amazed,
    I just *might* let my arm get twisted
    into helping work the booth next time..........
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:00:06 1999
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In a message dated 8/3/1999 11:25:18 AM Central Daylight Time, 
daver!one.net!kleeman@aol.com writes:

<< you may want to also use a little food coloring on the petals of the 
flowers to keep them
 from fading as fast.... >>

How do you put the food color on?
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 09:51:13 -0700
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>>In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
harden up, use raw linseed oil.<<

Thanks Bob for a great discussion of the topic. The above raises a question
in my mind. What about mixing about 10% raw linseed oil with the boiled
linseed oil to increase the life of the putty? Is there a chance that this
could increase the life of the unrestored window by a number of years?

My experience is that failure of the putty is the first major step in the
breakdown of a stained glass window. Delaying this failure point is in the
clients best interest and a potential brag point for my studio. I already
guarantee that I will not be around for the normal failure of the window.

Bob (the older)


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:18:53 1999
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Subject: Re: Putty question (long)
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:52:58 -0400 (EDT)
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Bob,

I reviewed the Bungi archive and discovered this 1997 post from Albert.  
Not sure it answers your question, but it sure does give a lot of
information on the components that make up putty.  

==============================================================================

From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@computer.net>
Subject: Re: Amended cement recipe
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 21:25:39 +0000

>  Eactly what
> IS whiting?? My understanding is that it is powdered chalk; yet
> oither people tell me it's plaster, others again tell me it's a
> mixture of chalk AND plaster; others again tell me it is dead,
> inactive plaster. It's white so it's called whiting. There must be
> more to it than that...
> So what is it exactly???

This from Julie Sloan's "Conservation of Stained Glass in America,"
http://www.aiap.com/     with permission:

Traditionally, waterproofing compound was composed basically of boiled
linseed oil and whiting, with plaster of Paris to extend the mixture,
turpentine to thin it, red, white or yellow lead as a drier of the
oil, and lamp black to color the compound grey. These six ingredients
are found in most recipes for waterproofing putty from the nineteenth
century until the mid-1970s, when the use of lead was outlawed in the
US.

Linseed oil is a drying oil, used as the medium in artists' oil paint.
In waterproofing compound, boiled linseed oil is used because it dries
more quickly than unboiled oil. The process of drying is not a
volatilization; that is, nothing evaporates from linseed oil to leave
a solid behind, which is what happens when lacquers or watercolors,
for instance, dry. Instead, linseed oil oxidizes and polymerizes,
meaning that it absorbs oxygen from the atmosphere, which causes a
chemical change in the oil and results in its thickening and
hardening. A chemical change cannot be re-versed; set waterproofing
compound can never be dissolved to its constituent components of
linseed oil and whiting, unlike lacquer, for instance, which can be
dissolved in the medium in which it was applied originally.

This absorption of oxygen and subsequent chemical change begins to
take place when linseed oil is heated or exposed to driers or other
chemicals, or to sunlight. This is the beginning of the polymerization
process. Boiled linseed oil is not actually boiled; it is heated until
oxidation begins, but the boiling point is not reached. Today,
"boiled" oil is dried with chemicals. This drying process results in a
thicker substance which takes less time to fully polymerize.
Ultimately, when applied and left to set in the air, the fully
polymerized (or dried) oil becomes hard, very dur-able and waterproof.
Although full drying requires literally tens of years (especially in
thick applications, such as in a bevel), initial oxidation and drying
is achieved in two or three days, after which time a skin or harder
surface has formed which may be painted. Sunlight aids in the drying
process, although too much sun causes cracking.

Whiting is powdered calcium carbonate, or chalk. It is inert, meaning
that it reacts chemically with nothing. It has long been used as an
inexpensive and inferior white pigment in non-oil paints or an
extender for oil paints. Combined with linseed oil, it has a long
history as a putty used in repairing paintings, not to mention in the
glazing of windows.

Plaster of Paris is calcium sulfate. It is produced by roasting gypsum
(which is also calcium sulfate) to drive off most of the water bonded
to its molecules. This allows plaster of Paris to become active,
capable of readily and quickly re-combining with water to form a hard,
brittle material. This ability to combine with water is probably not
why it was used in putties, where such a hard-setting, brittle,
water-soluble ma-terial is not desired. While whiting is used as an
extender for oil paints, plaster was considered inferior for this use
because of its hygroscopic nature (meaning it absorbs water from the
air). However, in linseed-oil putty, plaster is used as an inexpensive
extender. In putty recipes, whiting is listed as the principle solid
ingredient. Putty can be made without plaster, but not without
whiting. While plaster is listed in many (but not all) recipes, it is
always in quantities smaller than those required of whiting --
typically, three or four parts whiting to two or three parts plaster.

Turpentine is the distillate of resin from coniferous trees. It is a
commonly-used solvent for oil painting, having a slower evaporation
rate, lower level of flammability, and lower toxicity than solvents
such as kerosene, which will also thin linseed oil. As turpentine
dries, it becomes thick and viscous, which adds to the putty-like
quality of waterproofing compound.

Red lead (Pb3O4) is made by heating white lead (basic lead carbonate,
2PbCO3.Pb(OH)2, the corro-sion product of lead exposed to acetic or
other organic acids, used for pigments in white paints) or litharge
(PbO, also called yellow lead or massicot). None of these lead
products is commercially available in the United States today, either
uncombined or as part of another substance. Red lead is not primarily
used as a pigment in paints because it turns black or brown on
exposure to air, but its characteristic as an anti-corrosive made it
useful as the primary ingred-ient of rust-inhibiting paints. (The
familiar red paint used to prime iron and steel buildings and bridges,
most notably the Golden Gate Bridge, was red lead paint.) Although
white lead was, for many generations, the principle white paint
pigment, lead oxides are more important in paints and putties because
they are driers, added to linseed oil to hasten poly-merization. When
lampblack is used to color the putty, which slows the drying process,
the siccative (or drying) nature of red lead becomes even more
important. The red lead in waterproofing compound may have served a
dual purpose: to help the waterproofing compound set, and to prime the
metal.

Since red lead is no longer used in waterproofing compounds, many
experienced glaziers and restorers feel that the waterproofing
compounds commercially available today are of inferior quality to
those available prior to the banning of red and white lead in the
United States. They do not set as well or last as long as red lead
waterproofing compound.

Lamp black (also called carbon black) is a fine, almost pure carbon
powder used as a pigment. It is the soot created from burning
pet-roleum oils, tars or resins. It has been used since time
immemorial as an oil pigment. Used as the coloring agent of
waterproofing putty, it will retard the drying of the linseed oil
unless driers, like red lead, are added. Today, when we cannot use red
lead in putty, it is important that the amount of lampblack used is
kept to a minimum.

The recipes for waterproofing compound found in stained glass manuals
vary. Amounts of materials differ or are not stated and other
materials are added depending on the author. These other materials
include Japan driers, "patent driers" (metallic salts, usually lead,
cobalt, or manganese) and gold size (a fast-drying varnish), added to
accelerate the drying of the linseed oil. Some recipes call for
"vegetable black" instead of lamp black. (This is a carbon black
pigment derived by burning vegetable matter rather than petroleum
products.)

The most controversial and potentially dangerous ingredient for window
putties is Portland cement. It is only in the last thirty to forty
years that Portland cement has found its way into glazing putties.
Portland cement is a calcined mixture of roughly three parts of
calcium carbonate (chalk or limestone) to one part aluminum silicates
(clay). Its name derives from the similarity in appearance and
hardness to Portland (England) lime-stone. Portland cement sets up in
much the same way plaster of Paris does, by reacting with water to
create heat. However, whereas plaster sets very quick-ly and is
ultimately rather brittle but soluble in water, Portland cement
continues to harden for a long period of time and results in a very
hard, insoluble material.

The reason this material is dangerous to use on windows is its
hardness. A leaded glass window must move with the expansion and
contraction of the lead came during thermal changes and with wind
pressure. As Portland cement hardens and becomes more rigid, it allows
the window to move less and less. Because the cement will not flex or
crack if the window is forced to move, the glass is likely to break.
In addition, because Portland cement is insoluble, it will be
virtually impossible to dismantle the panel without breaking glass. It
also exhibits excellent adhesion to glass, meaning that even if the
panel comes apart, the putty is very difficult to remove from the
glass.

Modern commercially available putties usually contain elastomers.
These are synthetic compounds designed to keep the putty elastic for
many years, preventing it from hardening up to a rock-like
consistency. None of these has been around long enough for us to know
exactly how long they will perform their task. In Europe, butyl mastic
is a favored putty with good aging characteristics, but its
workability is only fair and it is not presently available in the
United States.

Most of the recipes require that the waterproofing compound be mixed
with enough turpentine and linseed oil to render it somewhat soupy or
"thick as treacle" (molasses). It is scooped onto the panel and forced
under the flanges of the came using a natural bristle brush. Often it
oozes out the opposite side of the panel, which is desirable,
according to some of the handbooks, because then you know that the
putty has gotten into the groove of the came. However, be cautioned
that the putty should not be too runny or there will be nothing left
under the flanges when the oozing has stopped.

This soupy mixture is not recommended, however, if there is plating on
the window. Putty that is runny enough to ooze through the came will
continue to ooze between the plates. When plating is present, a stiff,
thick putty is a better choice, made by lessening the amount of
turpentine used to thin the mixture, or by adding more whiting. It is
applied with the thumb, because it is too thick to brush.

In much restoration, a thick putty is often recommended because it is
easier to control. Thumbing the putty keeps the spread of oil on the
glass in check, making cleaning easier. Also, because a stiff putty
does not ooze, cleaning will have to performed less often. In plated
windows, each layer of plating must be puttied before the next layer
can be soldered in place. This creates its own problems, though, if
the putty boils as the leads are heated for soldering. Care must be
used in this process. If fragile paint or glass exists, even if it has
been consolidated, it may not be desirable to subject it to the rigors
of being scrubbed with bristle brushes and oily putty. Paint or glass
that is textured could trap the putty and be very difficult to clean.

Regardless of whether thick or thin putty is used, cleaning the panel
after puttying is crucial. Studies in Europe have shown that the oils
in putty, if not properly cleaned off the glass, will eventually
corrode glass paint. Liberal dusting and rubbing with whiting is the
most effective, although some glaziers also swear by sawdust. Use of
any of these should be accompanied by wearing a dust mask to prevent
aspiration of the dust. As the putty sets, further cutting back and
cleaning may be necessary to remove oils that travel to the surface.

==============================================================================



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 11:24:02 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 10:14:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.3144.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.12737.0>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

Kokomo's web site is: http://www.kog.com/

Their e-mail address is: koglass@kog.com

Last time I asked, they did not have a general e-mail list for notifying
people of updates, new glass, etc.  They do not appear to have a news letter
(at least it is not listed on their site).  They may have something for
retail shops, but you would have to contact them.

If your browser supports subscriptions, you can do what I have done to know
about new glass.  Set up a subscription for their home page at
http://www.kog.com/index.html and/or their digital sample page at
http://www.kog.com/Samples/Sample1.html .  When they add a new glass to
their sample page the subscription will notify you the page has changed.

"I would not, could not, kill the King.  I would not poison anything."
Green Eggs and Hamlet

Tim Atwood - Glass and Wood - http://www.holtenwood.bc.ca/studios.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: <Beveler4@aol.com>
To: <glassx@bardstown.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo


> Hi Ricki,
> I don't work for Kokomo I just went there to pick up some glass for my
shop
> and studio,I,m not sure that they have an E-mail list that they send to
> regularly or not I will talk to them and see, and if they do I'll tell
them
> to include you.

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:28:49 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: "'seaspray@island.net'" <seaspray@island.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 14:39:08 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.10398.0>
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I don't think my explanation was clear enough.

You have two pieces of glass you are placing the flowers between.
Foil both pieces as you normally would.
Tin the outside edge of both pieces.
Clean up any flux, fingerprints ... from the inside surfaces of the glass.
Position flowers on bottom piece, position top piece.
At this point you just need to solder the tinned edges together. You should
not need additional flux.
As long as you are careful and don't melt through the inside should be fine.

As I said this has worked for me in the past.

  Vic M.
  vmodino@ctronsoft.com <mailto:Vmodino@ctronsoft.com> 
 

		-----Original Message-----
		From:	seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net]
		Sent:	Tuesday, August 03, 1999 2:43 PM
		To:	Modiano, Victor
		Cc:	glass@bungi.com
		Subject:	RE: wildflowers

		>I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you
don't need to
		>use flux at all.
		>Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great.
Should work with a
		>"wildflower sandwich".

		If you're doing production for a craft show, why not buy a
roll or two of
		silvered foil.  It's a little more expensive, but I've found
it's work it
		when I add up the cost of the time I spend fluxing, tinning
and then
		cleaning off the flux!!!

		C.

		Carol Swann
		Synergy Glass & Creative
		http://www.igga.org/synergy
		seaspray@island.net

		check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
		http://come.to/The_E-Tour
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:48:55 1999
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To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
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Subject: RE: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 11:43:29 -0700
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>I have found that if you tin the edges before soldering you don't need to
>use flux at all.
>Tried this with pieces of  k-scope and it worked great. Should work with a
>"wildflower sandwich".

If you're doing production for a craft show, why not buy a roll or two of
silvered foil.  It's a little more expensive, but I've found it's work it
when I add up the cost of the time I spend fluxing, tinning and then
cleaning off the flux!!!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net

check out the latest info on Elisabeth's trip at:
http://come.to/The_E-Tour

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 12:58:41 1999
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From: Creativeco <creativeco@pdq.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 1999 14:03:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.9312.0>
Precedence: bulk

I'm currently working on a mosaic bird bath and I'm not too crazy about
my glue decision. Right now I'm using Liquid Nails and it's kinda a pain
to work with...too thick. Does anyone have any suggestions as to other
glues you have had luck with on similar (i.e. underwater or exposed to
the elements) projects? I was planning on using tile grout like one
would use in a shower. Any grout ideas or suggestions would also be
appreciated.

Thanks
Margo



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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 14:59:36 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Artist Videos wanted
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:26:38 -0400
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Hi gang.  There is a request from Susie Beiman of the craft
store, Details in Indianapolis, IN.  She is looking to purchase
video tapes of artists at work to be played in her store.  For
more information call 317-571-9977 or fax 317-571-1514.
This request was originally published in the "Philadelphia
Market Daily News" distributed at the recent Buyers Market
of American Craft wholesale show in Philadelphia.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 15:38:17 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 13:12:04 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.14124.0>
References: <<1999Aug2.9332.0@?>>
Precedence: bulk

Bob, et. al.

        I had occasion to look up the differences between boiled
(refined) and raw linseed oil.   The difference is in drying time.  Raw
takes many times longer to dry.  So refined is better.  I agree that a
higher proportion of oil  in the mixture is better.  I adapted your
recipe for cement by adding much more whiting to get a less fluid
mixture.  You have now set me to thinking that maybe it would be better
to reduce the turpentine content rather than just increasing the whiting
content.

I look forward to others' comments and experiences.

Steve

In message <1999Aug2.9332.0@?>, Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
writes
>I have learned to mix a 50/50 solution of boiled linseed oil and turpentine
>for the liquid used in home made putty. I also have learned to use enough
>liquid to make the putty flow like honey.
>
>Now my question is: I have also been taught to use slightly more turpentine
>for faster setting putty but I now wonder if the boiled linseed oil putty
>starved putty is as long lasting as the 50/50 mix?
>
>I even wonder if using straight boiled linseed oil would be best from the
>standpoint of long lasting putty. What about raw linseed oil? Am I giving my
>clients a low grade product in the interest of speed in the studio?
>
>Bob
>
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-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 15:50:50 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:44:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.134448.0>
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Message text written by Creativeco
>I'm currently working on a mosaic bird bath and I'm not too crazy about
my glue decision. Right now I'm using Liquid Nails and it's kinda a pain
to work with...too thick. Does anyone have any suggestions as to other
glues you have had luck with on similar (i.e. underwater or exposed to
the elements) projects? I was planning on using tile grout like one
would use in a shower. Any grout ideas or suggestions would also be
appreciated.<

I use GE Silicon II clear for all my mosaic work, including a full line
of mosaic'ed birdbaths I sell throughout the country.  It dried pretty
quickly and remains flexible, as well as being mildew-resistant and
waterproof.

For grout I use powdered non-sanded tile grout.  Many colors now
availble.  Some folk use the sanded stuff.  Either way, you're OK.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 18:21:21 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 17:07:11 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug3.10711.0>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
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A note regarding health and turpentine.

 Over the last several years many of my woodworking magazines have carried
articles noting that turpentine often contains several chemicals hazardous
to your health.  Many people apparently think that since turpentine is
derived from natural tree extracts it is safe.  However depending on the
refining process, most brands of turpentine contain significant levels of
chemicals which have been linked to cancer and nervous disorders.

 All of these articles agreed that the purest mineral spirits available
(i.e.
those usually listed as low-odor mineral spirits), were a much safer
alternative as a solvent.  All the recent wood finishing recipes using
linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor mineral spirits for
this reason.

 I suspect that the same would hold true for stained glass putty recipes.
People might want to consider replacing the turpentine in the mixture with
low-odor mineral spirits for the sake of their health.

Note: No organic solvent is 100% safe. I would also recommend gloves and a
well ventilated work space no matter what you are using as a solvent to thin
the linseed oil.

 ----- Original Message -----
 From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
 To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
 Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:32 AM
 Subject: Re: Putty questions


> <snip>...

 >
> The evaporation of turpentine (which functions as a solvent, or diluent)
> will thicken the putty, but the evaporation will not harden up the
> putty.  The turpentine basically thins out the boiled linseed oil so you
> can mix it better, more completely that is, with the whiting with a lot
> less effort.
>
> ...<snip>


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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 19:24:22 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
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Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 03 Aug 99 07:12:22 
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Wow! what a description !! I've used boiled linseed oil (didn't like the raw) and now I 
know why! 

I add the oil to an existing glazing compound (after 10 yrs of doing it by hand, I found the 
'paint mixer' thingie you put in a drill) till it's like natural peanut butter.. and it works great! 

Candy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 20:23:51 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: laurie good <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: wildflowers
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:24:10 -0700 (PDT)
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Laurie:  Flowers pressed for glass do great but fade real easy unless you
take precautions.  I have been tempted to try using Deka paint and
enhancing their color before placing them between glass.  Some will tell
you that if you use vermiculite and the microwave you can "set" the color
but I would really like to hear from someothers who have done this.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 20:46:11 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 19:37:59 -0700 (PDT)
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Anyone who uses Boiled Lindseed Oil should be aware that one of the
hazards is spontaneous combustion.  NEVER leave rags or paper with the
boiled linseed oil around your house.  Throwing rags or paper that have
linseed oil on them in the garbage can cause a fire.  I'm sure most of you
know this but one of my friends found it out the hard way.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Tue Aug  3 21:33:05 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 20:45:18 -0700
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Tim Atwood writes, in part:>>All of these articles agreed that the purest
mineral spirits available
(i.e.
those usually listed as low-odor mineral spirits), were a much safer
alternative as a solvent.  All the recent wood finishing recipes using
linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor mineral spirits for
this reason.<<

Thanks for your post.

Turpentine does not seem to be sold in California anymore. There is a
turpentine substitute called turpentane sold that seems to do about the same
as turpentine. The warnings on the turpentane can do not lead one to think
it is very good to have around either.

I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
safer than ordinary mineral spirits. Being a doubting person at heart I
wonder if the lack of smell has fooled people into thinking the odorless is
safer. Lack of smell does not in itself prove much as far as safety goes. In
fact, there is a safety drawback in-as-much as there is no odor warning for
spills and soaked flammable rags.  I don't mind paying four times as much
for the odorless but would like to know it is a reasonable health measure
and not another crock to push a new product.

Bob


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 07:05:59 1999
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From: "Paula Rubin" <prubin1@ix.netcom.com>
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Subject: Flux help needed please
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:22:21 -0400
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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I've been working in stained glass for a short period and I am confused =
about what kind of flux to use and what is the difference between flux =
with zinc chloride and without and acid as well. Can I get some advice =
as to which brands people like and the differences? The wisdom is very =
much appreciated.
TIA
Paula Rubin
So. Florida


------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3401" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#fffff0>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>I've been working in stained glass for a short =
period and I am=20
confused about what kind of flux to use and what is the difference =
between flux=20
with zinc chloride and without and acid as well. Can I get some advice =
as to=20
which brands people like and the differences? The wisdom is very much=20
appreciated.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D3>TIA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Paula Rubin</DIV>
<DIV>So. Florida</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01BEDE5A.DB2042A0--

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 07:29:03 1999
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Subject: Sea Shells
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 08:29:56 -0500
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Has anyone had any experience soldering sea shells?
Thank you,
David
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 08:10:49 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
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Subject: Re: Sea Shells
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 10:42:13 -0400
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Charles R. Clark wrote:
> 
> Has anyone had any experience soldering sea shells?
> Thank you,
> David
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soldering sea shells at the sea shore? - the hardest part is foiling.
use a thin foil and wrap it as you would glass. carefully rub it and
your done, though it can be real difficult to do dpending on the shell
you use. 

if you put a clear laquer on the shell, - do it at the end, otherwise it
may melt and turn kind of brown. however if the shell is porous then the
flux and patina may get trapped, then you would have to cover it with
soemthing.

---Mike Savad

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 08:40:56 1999
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From: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:03:12 -0600
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEDE58.2E13F220
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Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*

Thanks for any advice you can give.

Dawn

------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEDE58.2E13F220
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Hi everyone!&nbsp; Just wondering - has anyone had =
any luck=20
applying patina on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it =
just=20
went yecch... kind of greyish black.&nbsp; Looked awful.&nbsp; I thought =
at=20
first it was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free =
solder on=20
that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.&nbsp;=20
*Sigh*</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Thanks for any advice you can give.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dawn</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 09:44:53 1999
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From: seaspray@island.net
To: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 09:21:59 -0700
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>
>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>
>Dawn

Hi Dawn,

Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
are very harsh.

Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
the piece turned out fine!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 10:11:56 1999
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Subject: Fwd: Pattern Index on Warner Criv
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:48:34 EDT
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Ooops,
forgot to click "reply all"

Richard

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Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 12:47:04 EDT
Subject: Re: Pattern Index on Warner Criv
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Dianne,

I'm not affiliated with them either, but one could not ask for a better 
example of how to do business right. I've owned a number of businesses over 
the years, and in this day of generally shoddy service, and slam bam, thank 
you m'am, the W/C company is a blessed relief. I've seldom seen an enterprise 
so dedicated to growing by "giving back" to the marketplace.


Richard
Glassics Artglass
Valencia, CA

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 10:40:47 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:04:40 -0400 
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.9440.0>
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huh? the chemicals in patina are harsh, but they all go away when you wash
the piece, except for the copper, which is plated out onto the lead.

the reason it didn't work is that the patina plates copper on lead in a
chemical reaction, and lead-free solder doesn't have any lead in it.

btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't good
to ingest.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:22 AM
To: Dawn Marie Barker
Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder


	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>
>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>
>Dawn

Hi Dawn,

Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
are very harsh.

Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
the piece turned out fine!

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 13:10:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:58:50 -0400
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Message text written by "Spitzer, Charlie"
>
btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are
lots
of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't
good
to ingest.<

But, I would suspect it's still better to use lead-free solder
on that cute stained glass napkin holder than regular.  I
pointed that out to the owner of a local stained glass =

retailer who sells these types of gift items.... the response
was they'd never had a  customer complain about it.  <sigh>

Still shaking my head over that one,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 14:42:33 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:27:05 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.7275.0>
References: <<001701bede2b$ccd7b040$a8e5fdd1@default>>
Organization: Holtenwood Studios
Precedence: bulk

OK, I went back and looked at a couple of the articles.  Because rules and
labeling criteria vary between countries, provinces and states it is very
difficult to tell what a particular product contains.  In both the U.S. and
Canada you can sometimes get an MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from the
manufacturer.  Without the MSDS, it is pretty difficult to know what is in
the products sold under the very general labels of "mineral spirits" or
"paint thinner" or "turpentine".

The article which talked most about the "low-odor" thing was using it as a
general rule of thumb if you did not have an MSDS.  In general most of the
odor in both mineral spirits (paint thinner) and turpentine comes from
residual "tars" and volatile esters (acidified methanol compounds mostly)
left from the refining process.  These compounds tend to be some of the most
dangerous to peoples health.  The idea is that a low odor product will have
fewer of these compounds and as a general rule will be safer.

However, the same article stated this was only a general rule and that,
similar to what you pointed out, a low odor product could contain dangerous
chemicals.  The only way to be fairly sure is to get the MSDS or your
country's equivalent.

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>; Tim Atwood <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 8:45 PM
Subject: Re: Putty questions


<snip>..
> I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
> safer than ordinary mineral spirits. ...<snip>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:12:42 1999
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From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: sea shells
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:46:44 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.74644.0>
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I agree with Mike, that using the thinnest foil available and just
barely on the "top" edge (actually, if the shell is small, uncentering
the foil so that most of it remains on the back of the shell).

I recently finished some boxes with shells on the top,
and found that tinning each shell individually before final soldering
in place was essential as you could see through the glass when the box
lid was opened, and it made the irregularities of the shells easier to
deal with once they were tinned.

Barbara Elmore



_____________________________________________________________
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:41:55 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "barbara elmore" <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>,
Subject: Re: sea shells
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:30:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.14307.0>
Precedence: bulk

Good idea Barbara.  I used to do a lot of diving when I lived overseas and
have a big shell collection.  I am going to incorporate some shells into my
boxes sometime soon.
I am going do like you say and foil and tin first.
Thanks,
Linda Jo

-----Original Message-----
From: barbara elmore <barbaraelmore@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 6:17 PM
Subject: sea shells


>
>I agree with Mike, that using the thinnest foil available and just
>barely on the "top" edge (actually, if the shell is small, uncentering
>the foil so that most of it remains on the back of the shell).
>
>I recently finished some boxes with shells on the top,
>and found that tinning each shell individually before final soldering
>in place was essential as you could see through the glass when the box
>lid was opened, and it made the irregularities of the shells easier to
>deal with once they were tinned.
>
>Barbara Elmore
>
>
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com
>
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 15:57:07 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Intrastar" <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Lead/Putty Steps
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 18:08:19 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.14819.0>
Precedence: bulk

I am wondering if I am doing lead finishing correctly. I am sending this to
two lists, so please forgive the repeat.

The following steps are after window/panel is constructed, including zinc
framing:

1. Apply cement or putty with small-ish brush, rubbing the material under
all cames and zinc.
2. Spread whiting over entire panel.
3. Using fid in an upright angle, running along every edge.
4. Turning over and repeating on opposite side.
5. After 15-20 minutes (in Florida heat), panel remaining flat, using larger
brush in a circular motion, removing material from glass, checking to see
that it is also cleaned off on lead and zinc edges.
6. Allowing to harden for 3 days in a flat position, then cleaning and
waxing panel.

I am using putty or cement (can't remember exactly what it's called) that is
pre-made and black. I use an egg beater attached to drill to mix it
thoroughly.

There... does that sound like I am doing it correctly?
Thank you..
Mary



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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 16:10:17 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "Beveler4@aol.com" <Beveler4@aol.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 99 04:43:51 
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Precedence: bulk

On Mon, 2 Aug 1999 20:58:14 -0700, Bob Duchesneau wrote:

>>>). Kokomo
>also plans on getting into the fusing market they are going to send me the
>info this week in the mail.Going through the section where they keep the
>catspaw glass is like being in a candy shop,I probably over did it but what
>the heyLOL!!! Beveler4(Stan)<<
>
>Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success with
>it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.
>
>Bob

REALLY!!!! I haven't tried Kokomo in the kiln yet.. guess what I'm going to try this 
weekend? so it's a 96, Bob?

I haven't tried the new fusible clear from Spectrum yet.. it works well?
Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 17:40:26 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Whats New at Kokomo
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 17:00:35 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.10035.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>>Please share the info you get on fusing Kokomo. I have had good success
with
>it and surprisingly have found much of it compatible with Spectrum.
>
>Bob

REALLY!!!! I haven't tried Kokomo in the kiln yet.. guess what I'm going to
try this
weekend? so it's a 96, Bob?

I haven't tried the new fusible clear from Spectrum yet.. it works well?
Candy<<

Yes, Kokomo acts very much like Spectrum in the kiln. I have tried Kokomo
cathedrals with success when mixed with Spectrum so it must be very close to
96 in COE. Like Spectrum the Kokomo tends to divit at higher fusing
temperatures.

The new fusible clear has great resistance to divit. I have yet to use it as
an overlay covering because much of my fusing has pattern relief. I do not
fuse flat when I can have a little relief. Might do that if I made plates
for eating off of. Display plates are best IMO when the design has relief. I
routinely use anti divit spray with and without lead as the project calls
for.

Bob


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 18:14:53 1999
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From: "J. Dahlin" <jdahlin@pro-ns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:38:21 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.133821.0>
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I am looking at making airline reservations to go to Glass Visions.  For
those of you who have been their before I would like some input.  If I
fly in Saturday morning, arriving around noon, will I have ample time to
see and do everything?  Also any recommendations for nearby hotels?


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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 19:46:37 1999
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From: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 22:35:58 -0400
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From:	"Bob Duchesneau", INTERNET:bobdu@prodigy.net
To:	"Tim Atwood", INTERNET:atwoods@aisl.bc.ca
"Bungi", INTERNET:glass@bungi.com

Date:	8/3/99  9:42 PM

RE:Re: Putty questions

Tim Atwood writes, in part:>>All of these articles agreed that the purest
mineral spirits available (i.e. those usually listed as low-odor mineral 
spirits), were a much safer alternative as a solvent. All the recent wood 
finishing recipes using linseed oil have now replaced turpentine with low-odor
mineral spirits for this reason.<<

Thanks for your post.

> Turpentine does not seem to be sold in California anymore. <

It's just hard to find.  It lurks.

> There is a turpentine substitute called turpentane sold that seems to do 
> about the same as turpentine. <

Whether it is "turpentane," "turpenoid,"  "turpenoid natural," or whatever, 
these names don't have any meaning.  Without the MSDS, you wont have a clue 
what they actually are.

> The warnings on the turpentane can do not lead one to think it is very good 
> to have around either. <

There are no "safe" solvents.  But some of the turpentine substitutes such 
as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.  Get the 
MSDS.


> I would like to know the reason odorless mineral spirits is supposed to be
> safer than ordinary mineral spirits. <


**Mineral spirits is a petroleum distillate of a particular boiling range 
that has all the hundreds of volatile petroleum chemicals in it.  There are 
all the aliphatics (that is straight and branched chain hydrocarbons) and all 
the aromatics (ring hydrocarbons such as toluene, xylene, ethylbenzene, etc.)


**Odorless mineral spirits *should* be regular mineral spirits with the 
aromatic hydrocarbons removed.  These are not only the most toxic group, they 
happen to have the strongest odor--hence the "odorless" name.


> Being a doubting person at heart I wonder if the lack of smell has fooled 
> people into thinking the odorless is safer. Lack of smell does not in itself
> prove much as far as safety goes. In fact, there is a safety drawback
> in-as-much as there is no odor warning for spills and soaked flammable 
> rags.<

Very good thinking!  However, if you really can't smell odorless mineral 
spirits, go to a neurologist because something is wrong with either your 
brain or the odor receptors in you nose.


> I don't mind paying four times as much for the odorless but would like to 
> know it is a reasonable health measure and not another crock to push a new 
> product. <


Here's how to find out if the stuff is a crock or not.  Get the MSDS and look 
at the second section where the TLVs and PELs are listed.  A really good 
quality odorless mineral spirits or odorless paint thinner should have a TLV 
and a PEL of 300 ppm.  A more toxic product will have a TLV and PEL of 100 
ppm or lower.  They line up like this:


PRODUCT.................................................TLV-TWA
Good quality odorless mineral spirits/thinner, etc......300 ppm
Poor quality odorless product or plain mineral spirits..100 ppm
Turpentine..............................................100 ppm
d-limonene, citrus turp..................................30 ppm*


*this standard is actually set by the American Industrial Hygiene Association 
and is not technically a TLV.  But its meaning is the same.

Hope this helps.


Monona
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Subject: copper tree
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:55:28 EDT
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Hi everyone--it has been a while (4 months computer was down but have it back 
today after rebuilding it completely thanks to WV thunderstorms / lightening 
whnich destroyed 3 modems in three days and the cpu/ motherboard HD etc.)

Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.  New 
at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over glass 
or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a 
filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.  
Shirley G.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug  4 22:23:42 1999
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From: "Soraya" <soraya@cros.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:03:33 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug4.21333.0>
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>Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants
a
>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
New
>at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
glass
>or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a
>filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance


I saw this in a book I have...they did the 'tree' up the side of and top of
a box.  I have been meaning to try this technique...but alas..time.

How it was presented was using copper foil..suitably overlapped...and
trimmed where necessary with a razor knife....they then used textured solder
effects for completion.  The pictures are quite pretty.

BTW:  The book is "Stained Glass, Projects and Patterns" by George Shannon
and Pat Torlen, A Sterling/Tomas book, ISBN: 1-895569-40-0

Take Care,
Soraya

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 05:38:12 1999
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Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 08:26:28 -0400
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Sorry to post a ng but have lost Dawn Barker's new address. If you see
this Dawn could you let me know. Thanks, Rita

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please subscibe me at this new address  
glassshack@zoomtown.com
e-mail: glassshack@zoomtown.com@zoomtown.com


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Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 12:21:25 AM, SGriffiSBG@aol.com writes:

>I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
> New at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
>glass or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act 
as
>a filler.

I've never done this myself, but if I did I think I'd be more inclined to get 
a thin sheet of copper (about the thickness of the aluminum flashing you can 
get at Home Depot et al.) and cut the tree shape out of that rather than 
trying to do a large area in foil overlay, which you'd then have to tin and 
re-patina in copper (and we all know how persnickety copper patina can be!). 
You can hammer the copper sheet to give it some texture, and back it with 
plain glass.

Just my 2 copper cents' worth.........


Sparks
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 06:39:02 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:51:00 EDT
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In a message dated 8/4/99 1:42:14 PM, Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com writes:

>btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
>of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't
>good to ingest.

I don't think the tin will hurt you (unless you're in the habit of eating 
soup cans), but the antimony's a real bastard.


Sparks
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: 75054.2542@compuserve.com, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:51:02 EDT
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In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona) 
writes:

>There are no "safe" solvents.  But some of the turpentine substitutes such
>as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there 
who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from 
oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff 
around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones 
in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were 
evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.


Sparks
    who was surprised the other day to see an insecticide spray
    containing mint oil as the active ingredient - it was labeled
    "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that

    =8-O
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Get together after Glass Visions?
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 09:53:50 -0000
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Anybody interested in getting together after Glass Visions on Saturday 
for dinner/drinks? 

E-mail me privately and I'll make reservations tomorrow (Friday). Thanks.

Suzanne


suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 07:28:27 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: SGriffiSBG@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:59:52 -0400
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Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
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SGriffiSBG@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone--it has been a while (4 months computer was down but have it back
> today after rebuilding it completely thanks to WV thunderstorms / lightening
> whnich destroyed 3 modems in three days and the cpu/ motherboard HD etc.)
> 
> Have a question.  I am currently designing a window where the client wants a
> copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.  New
> at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over glass
> or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act as a
> filler.  Any input would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
> Shirley G.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i would do 1 of 3 things:

1. use the foil overlay from a sheet. not the thin copper foil tape
sheet though, it may rip. plus the copper sheet may act as a better heat
sink so the glass may not crack.


2. make a copper wire tree. twist together a small gauge soft naked
solid wire strands together to form a tree. it should be soldered then
patinaed, or it may fall apart. 

3. make a glass tree, cover it with foil. solder and patina. the
advantage would be that it would fit in the space (unless you do it as
an overlay). and if the glass cracks it would'nt matter because it's
covered in foil.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 07:37:28 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: copper tree
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:28:31 -0600
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Also, you could twist pre-tinned wire and drop decoraive solder on the
twisted tree to give it body ( patina ) and then attach the wire to the
solder lines of your design.   The look is similar to the oriental art of
twisted wire trees with jade leaves hanging from them.  This would give your
tree a  three dimensional look and your project some great texture.   If you
use a foil overlay  be careful with overheating the glass.  This kinda of
work takes a lot of patience.  Don't work in any one area too long.  From
the voice of one who had some mysterious cracks show up after the soldering
was done on an overlay!!  It happened quicker than I thought and not while I
was actually soldering, but the next day.  Spooky ol' glass.  claudette

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 09:40:54 1999
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To: Witchdoc3@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 09:37:25 -0700
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Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona)
> writes:
> 
> >There are no "safe" solvents.  



uhhhhhhhhh ... yes and no.  Water is a solvent too donchano.  Too many
people think of "solvents" as being synonymous with "organic solvents"
... which is not the case.  A solvent is a liquid that dissolves a solid
... thats all, its a general concept.  Water dissolves salt (and many
other substances) and is a solvent.  I'll try to carve out some time
later today and write a little on this.



> >But some of the turpentine substitutes such
> >as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.
> 
> Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there
> who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from
> oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff
> around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones
> in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were
> evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.


Correct, so far as it goes anyway ... maybe I'll elucidate on this later
today, including some stuff on what turpentine (natural and commercial)
and turpentine substitutes actually are.

 
> Sparks
>     who was surprised the other day to see an insecticide spray
>     containing mint oil as the active ingredient - it was labeled
>     "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that


Probably not terribly effective as an insecticide if mint oil is the
"active ingredient".  Certainly the pyrethrins have mint oils beat by a
country mile as insecticides.  And mint oil also ATTRACTS insects btw. 
Sounds like a good commercial ploy though ... spray for ants, kill the
ants that are innudated with the stuff (probably more like drowning the
ants by clogging up their breathing pores with oil than anything else),
and the mild odor thats left attracts MORE ants, which causes you to use
the "insecticide" again, and then to buy more "poison-free insecticide"
... and so on.  Contradiction in terms too : Poison-free and insecticide
are antonyms, duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  Sounds good though, and given
today's anti-intellectual and anti-scientific atmosphere that produces
so many people incapable of critical thinking and ignorant of virtually
all basic science and math (though they DO know how to "get along" with
others), its probably pretty effective marketing.  

Reminds me of those "aphrodesiac placebos" <smile>.

Gotta keep movin', its Thursday and the natives are getting restless
.... Bob
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To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> >>In summary, if you want your putty to harden up in a reasonable amount
> of time, use boiled linseed oil.  If you do NOT want your putty to
> harden up, use raw linseed oil.<<
> 
> Thanks Bob for a great discussion of the topic. The above raises a question
> in my mind. What about mixing about 10% raw linseed oil with the boiled
> linseed oil to increase the life of the putty? Is there a chance that this
> could increase the life of the unrestored window by a number of years?


It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend. 
To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
you're finished and continue the tests.  Eventually they'll all fail and
you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
how to do this exactly if you're really interested.



> My experience is that failure of the putty is the first major step in the
> breakdown of a stained glass window. Delaying this failure point is in the
> clients best interest and a potential brag point for my studio. I already
> guarantee that I will not be around for the normal failure of the window.

You're a conscientious fellow Bob ... this is clear ... don't try to
cover it up with commercial reasons <smile>.

Regards .... Bob
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 10:40:07 1999
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From: "Tim Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:16:48 -0700
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Further reading on the solvent safety question has lead me to correct some
of the things I said in regards to low-odor versus standard mineral spirits.

A different article which actually listed dangerous chemicals in commonly
used woodworking products seemed to contradict the first.  It would indicate
that the main difference between low-odor and standard paint thinner was
fewer of certain high vapor pressure (gasses off into the air quicker)
chemicals.  The health differences were not stated.  It is quite possible
Bob is correct that much of it is the industry trying to sell a more
expensive niche product.  However, for me personally I do not like the smell
of regular paint thinner and the extra cost of the low-odor is a very small
part of the cost of most stained glass projects done in my shop.  So I guess
I will continue using it.

Their was general consensus on the dangers of standard grades of turpentine
though.  Standard grades of turpentine - i.e. those that are generally sold
in hardware stores and are in the price range of other solvents - are
derived from carbonized pine wood chips.  The carbonization process produces
a whole range of partial combustion products.  The chemicals and heat used
in the later extraction and distillation processes combine to form an even
wider range of chemicals.  Many of these chemicals have been linked to
health problems.  It is also nearly impossible to know what exactly is in a
particular manufacturer's turpentine because the makeup of the chemicals
varies with carbonization temperature, wood chip moisture content,
extraction chemicals, etc.

The above does not apply to the premium grades of turpentine sometimes
available at art supply stores at a much higher price.  These turpentines
are extracted from the oleo-resins of the pitch of certain trees.  Since
there is no carbonization process, many of the hazardous chemicals are
apparently not formed.  These premium turpentines also contain significantly
more of the oleo-resins which are prized by painters to improve the
plasticity of their paints.  In other words, these premium grades of
turpentine are really a totally different product than the standard grades.

Note: from my reading I do not think standard grades of turpentine contain
enough oleo-resins to make a difference in the plasticity of the linseed oil
polymers.  Someone might want to investigate this though.



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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Monona Rossol <75054.2542@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:25:06 -0700
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Must be something gummed up with the mail delivery system.  I just got
this one ... and I can see I don't need to write anything more on this
subject.

Thanks Monona <G>.

Regards ..... Bob
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "rrk" <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:40:25 -0700
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The other Bob writes: <<snip>>

>>It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend.
To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
you're finished and continue the tests.<<

I just happen to have a 12" X 12" X 8.5" kiln that I can devote to this test
for the next month or more.

>>Eventually they'll all fail and
you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
how to do this exactly if you're really interested.<<

Lets go for it! YOU devise the test and I will carry it out. Not sure how
failure is to be determined but I leave that to you. Might the tests include
the non use of turtentine or its substitutes also.

This is exciting. Just think, this little test MIGHT turn out to be an
indicator to improving putty life by 20 or 30%. A very worthwhile thing.

Bob




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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 10:54:10 -0700
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There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
your bets!

Steve
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:06:47 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:26:36 -0700
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Bob,

Don't go in with apriori's.  There might be no difference.  There might
be 10% difference.  There might be 6,000% difference.  It could be that
the mixture is worse than either one alone.  We don't know.  Thats why
one does the experiment, to find out.  I've been doing experiments using
the scientific method since my age was measured in single digits, and
the one thing I'm sure of is : go in with an open mind, that way you see
what's actually there.  Theory guides, experiment decides.  In spite of
that, like Pasteur said, In the field of science, chance favorizes the
prepared mind.  We kinda sorta know what to expect, but lets see how it
goes.

So ... probably be best to include some commercial putties in the
testing, including those made with elastomers.  We need those for
comparison.

Also, basically the idea behind accellerated testing is to compress
time.  One month = 1 year .. or whatever.  I do not know how long this
will take.  This test could require 2 days, or it could require several
months.  There are no published previous accellerated tests of this type
that I know about that would give an indication.  I'll try to look into
that if for no other reason than this might have been done before,
probably has been in fact ... the question is : where is the info? 
Might be some ASTM stuff on putties, I'll start there.

We need to find a method of determining the failure point.  Something we
can measure that indicates failure anyway.  Change of color, putty
begins to crumble ... I dunno ... something ... some property of the
putty that indicates failure.  Perhaps someone more involved in
restoration can write us something on this.

Tu/Th are difficult to get anything done ... gotta scoot ... Bob (de
udder Bob <G>)





Bob Duchesneau wrote:
> 
> The other Bob writes: <<snip>>
> 
> >>It should.  Thing is : I have no idea of what proportions to recommend.
> To do that apriori, I'd have to know the reaction rates of all three
> steps, information I do not have and am not likely to find, or not
> easily.  You could do some accellerated testing and get a working
> solution though.  Make up several test lots of putty with varying
> amounts of raw/boiled linseed oil (100%r, 90/10, 80/20, 70/30 .....
> 100%b).  Take some glass scraps and lead came and make some test
> joints.  Put them in the kiln at ... say 200-300C ... and just leave
> them there ... and test them every so often.  Take them out when you
> need to use the kiln for regular stuff, put the test joints back in when
> you're finished and continue the tests.<<
> 
> I just happen to have a 12" X 12" X 8.5" kiln that I can devote to this test
> for the next month or more.
> 
> >>Eventually they'll all fail and
> you'd plot out the failure points on a piece of graph paper to determine
> the most long lasting mixture.  Plot time on the X-axis, and %R/B on the
> Y-axis ... put a little dot at the point the putty fails ... connect the
> dots ... and you'll have your answer.  I'll write out more details on
> how to do this exactly if you're really interested.<<
> 
> Lets go for it! YOU devise the test and I will carry it out. Not sure how
> failure is to be determined but I leave that to you. Might the tests include
> the non use of turtentine or its substitutes also.
> 
> This is exciting. Just think, this little test MIGHT turn out to be an
> indicator to improving putty life by 20 or 30%. A very worthwhile thing.
> 
> Bob
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:14:46 1999
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From: seaspray@island.net
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 12:46:24 -0700
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>There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
>California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
>been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
>be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
>your bets!

What's the prize????

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:31:23 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Educational Question
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 13:50:42 -0700
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Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
program versus a craft/vocational school?

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 14:44:42 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "Steve Wernecke" <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>,
Subject: Re: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:11:01 -0400
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Steve,
How great that "E" got to see the bay area, and southern peninsula.   I am
sure she had a wonderful time.  Lets see, could she be heading to Colorado
now?
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 2:48 PM
Subject: Where-in-the-world-is-E? contest


>There have been definite E sightings the last few days in Los Gatos,
>California.  Rumor has it that the thoroughly delightful Elisabeth has now
>been thoroughly de-jetlagged and is heading for her next stop.   Who will
>be the next lucky host(ess) for the divine Ms E?  Come on folks...place
>your bets!
>
>Steve
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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Full-name: Hi imLaura
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 17:57:41 EDT
Subject: Re: Educational Question
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Hi Pam,

I don't think you can get a Bachelor's Degree in stained glass, but you can 
in Crafts and Fine Arts. I go to Kutztown University here in PA, and our 
crafts program leads to a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Crafts or in Studio Art. 
Anyway, both programs require an extensive arts background - history, 
drawing, 2 and 3 dimen. design, painting, printmaking, photog, life drawing, 
sculpture, watercolor, crafts survey - are all basic required courses for 
these degrees, and this doesn't include your concentration. You then choose 
your concentration from things like woodworking, fibers, ceramics, 
metalworking. It's a great program, and it is hard to get into - you have to 
have a pretty extensive portfolio as an entering freshman. I don't know if 
this helps at all, but if anyone has questions about KU you can email me at

HiimLaura@aol.com
or
poty6183@kutztown.edu 

Laura

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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Bobs was: Putty questions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 16:26:59 -0600
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>
> Tu/Th are difficult to get anything done ... gotta scoot ... Bob (de
> udder Bob <G>)
>
>

Now we've got a "Bob de" and a "Bob Du"--easy to keep straight! And here
I've been lumping them together as "Bob--the keeper of all knowledge")


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 16:05:03 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:34:59 -0400
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It is my understanding that Towson University here in Maryland includes
Stained Glass as an elective portion of their Art program, as we have had
several of their art students in our store to purchase supplies.  We also
had one out of state student take a course with us and by writing up what
she did and presenting her completed project to her instructor she recieved
course credits.

Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007
keane@heesun.com
www.heesun.com

At 01:50 PM 8/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
>program versus a craft/vocational school?
>
>Pam
>
>--
>
>Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
>Moswood Mountain Ltd.
>http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com
>
>
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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> Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
> program versus a craft/vocational school?

Louisiana State University used to have such a program, but when the 
professor retired, so did the program, alas. Other than that? Not as 
far as I know. US-wise, that is.  There are several degree programs 
in Europe.

Albert
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: smell of Patina?
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 18:50:11 -0500
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There is a smell I find particularly noxious. (that is a word isnt it?)
I use a green scrubby sponge...to scrub my work before applying
patina...it always take on that smell...so I change them frequently...
and right now my hands smell like it.

Yes...I always wear gloves when I patina...but frequently have tiny
holes in the fingers, because I wear then when Im soldering, then wash
my hands with the gloves on...then patina.

It is hard to find small enough gloves so the fingers are *always* too
long and I *always* end up burning a hole in the tip of at least one
finger of the left handed glove.

I HATE that smell.  Im so tempted to go rub my hands in garlic.  Anyone
know what smell it is???

Is it the patina?  Today....this feels like a nasty habit! ;o) (but Ive
gotten a lot done)
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 17:46:57 1999
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: smell of Patina?
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 20:26:50 -0400
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Precedence: bulk

Suzanne Gunn wrote:
> 
> There is a smell I find particularly noxious. (that is a word isnt it?)
> I use a green scrubby sponge...to scrub my work before applying
> patina...it always take on that smell...so I change them frequently...
> and right now my hands smell like it.
> 
> Yes...I always wear gloves when I patina...but frequently have tiny
> holes in the fingers, because I wear then when Im soldering, then wash
> my hands with the gloves on...then patina.
> 
> It is hard to find small enough gloves so the fingers are *always* too
> long and I *always* end up burning a hole in the tip of at least one
> finger of the left handed glove.
> 
> I HATE that smell.  Im so tempted to go rub my hands in garlic.  Anyone
> know what smell it is???
> 
> Is it the patina?  Today....this feels like a nasty habit! ;o) (but Ive
> gotten a lot done)
> --
> Suzanne
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Choosing is only difficult
> for those with imagination
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i found that peweter jax patina really reaks. i used it on a
kaleidoscope - big mistake. i've always used one of the orange cleaners
to remove or at least mask the smell.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 19:46:08 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: copper tree
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 99 08:17:34 
Message-ID: <199908060224.UAA14913@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

On Thu, 5 Aug 1999 08:50:58 EDT, Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:

>In a message dated 8/5/99 12:21:25 AM, SGriffiSBG@aol.com writes:
>
>>I am currently designing a window where the client wants a 
>>copper tree without leaves, with a sunset in the background and horses.
>> New at the art I am curious whether I should use 1/2 inch copper foil over
>>glass or cut a piece of copper overlay and foil to the glass which will act 
>as
>>a filler.
>
>I've never done this myself, but if I did I think I'd be more inclined to get 
>a thin sheet of copper (about the thickness of the aluminum flashing you can 
>get at Home Depot et al.) and cut the tree shape out of that rather than 
>trying to do a large area in foil overlay, which you'd then have to tin and 
>re-patina in copper (and we all know how persnickety copper patina can be!). 
>You can hammer the copper sheet to give it some texture, and back it with 
>plain glass.
>
>Just my 2 copper cents' worth.........
>
>
>Sparks
>----
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>
and I hear it cuts best with a propane torch, tho I personally haven't tried this (yet)

Candy

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 20:15:05 1999
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 22:53:46 -0000
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Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good 
idea so we can all find each other! 

Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That 
would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.

Suzanne


suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 20:44:36 1999
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X-Path: ilnk.com!andor
From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>,
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:23:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.192340.0>
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Suzanne,
I am getting more depressed by the minute that I am up there between E-tour
and GV.
Grrrrrrrrr...  Oh well next year for Glass Visions I guess.

Anyone that knows the Md./Baltimore area.  I am going to drive up to
Allentown from Aberdeen and I got a map at AAA today and it looks like I
can't get there directly.
North on I-95 to south of Philly and then head north west to Allentown on
468 or something like that, I don't have the map in front of me, but does
that sound about right?  I printed out Meridith's instructions and figure I
will head that way and call if I can't find them.

Thanks.  Oh yea Patrick, what is the crabcake place that I just have to go
to?  I refuse to even leave the Baltimore area without having some
crabcakes.
Linda Jo
-----Original Message-----
From: suzy@comcat.com <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: glass bungi line <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 11:18 PM
Subject: Glass Visions


>Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
>idea so we can all find each other!
>
>Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
>would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
>
>Suzanne
>
>
>suzanne albright
>suzy@comcat.com
>
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 21:14:42 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 22:43:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.174357.0>
References: <<199908060251.WAA27025@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

I'll be the one in the red leather mini skirt, and cowboy boots and
matching cowboy hat! lol...

                     -------NOT---------

Tulsa Suzanne



"suzy@comcat.com" wrote:
> 
> Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
> idea so we can all find each other!
> 
> Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
> would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
> 
> Suzanne
> 
> suzanne albright
> suzy@comcat.com
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Thu Aug  5 21:46:34 1999
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X-Path: pacbell.net!meryder
From: meryder@pacbell.net
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 21:18:41 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug5.141841.0>
References: <<1999Aug3.14154.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
drivers' side window of the car.

Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.

Many cultures that still use naturally dyed silks and woolens for clothing,
tapestries, and rugs, but caring for these products requires careful protection
from exposure to natural sunlight and/or storage in non-oxidizing atmospheric
conditions.

For example, if anyone has been to the Library of Congress in Washington DC
they've seen one of the oldest known copies of the Declaration of Independence,
in it's green-tinted plexiglass box which is filled with Nitrogen gas, and the
whole
thing is on a hydrolically operated lifting mechanism that raises and lowers it
into
and out of a security vault that is also charged with Nitrogen when the document
"goes to bed" at night.

"Permanent" coloring as we know it today was devised when analine dyes were
invented.  They come from metallic oxides, and require acids and heat to set.
"RIT" dye that you use in your washing machine is an example.  The instructions
require a "hot" water setting and the addition of vinegar at some point in the
process.

Best regards,
Cheryl



NEICYDENN@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/3/1999 3:05:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
> lauriegood@hotmail.com writes:
>
> << Does anyone have any tips for pressed flowers in glass.  I've just put
> some
>  wildflowers into the plant press and thought I'd give it a try. Do you need
>  some type of adhesive to hold the flowers between the glass?  Thanks, Laurie
> >>
>
> Laurie,
>
> I just finished a small teddy bear sun catcher for my daughter. She pressed
> some flowers from the garden, I put them between 2 clear pieces of glass in
> the tummy section of the bear. The flowers I used were all the same thickness
> (thin) so when sandwiched between the glass they don't move, then just foil
> together. I think if you were to use thick flowers, like daisies, it might
> not work. As far as adhesives, maybe a spray on one wouldn't show through the
> glass.
>
> Good luck,
> Denise
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 05:29:45 1999
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X-Path: cornell.edu!bjs10
From: Barbara <bjs10@cornell.edu>
To: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: FW: Patina on lead-free solder
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 07:55:25 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990806075525.006c7998@postoffice.mail.cornell.edu>
References: <<1999Aug4.9440.0>>
Precedence: bulk

And to add to that....... copper is not food safe either.  

Barbara

At 01:04 PM 8/4/99 -0400, Spitzer, Charlie wrote:
>huh? the chemicals in patina are harsh, but they all go away when you wash
>the piece, except for the copper, which is plated out onto the lead.
>
>the reason it didn't work is that the patina plates copper on lead in a
>chemical reaction, and lead-free solder doesn't have any lead in it.
>
>btw: i don't think that lead-free solder is food safe anyway. there are lots
>of other metals in lead-free solder, like tin and antimony, that aren't good
>to ingest.
>
>regards,
>charlie
>phx, az
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: seaspray@island.net [mailto:seaspray@island.net] 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 9:22 AM
>To: Dawn Marie Barker
>Subject: Re: Patina on lead-free solder
>
>
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>Hi everyone!  Just wondering - has anyone had any luck applying patina =
>>on a lead-free solder? I tried the copper patina and it just went =
>>yecch... kind of greyish black.  Looked awful.  I thought at first it =
>>was the patina, but realized it was that I'd used lead-free solder on =
>>that piece. When I tried again, using 50-50 it worked great.  *Sigh*
>>
>>Thanks for any advice you can give.
>>
>>Dawn
>
>Hi Dawn,
>
>Applying patina to a lead free solder defeats the purpose of making the
>piece food safe or skin safe (jewellery).  The chemicals found in patinas
>are very harsh.
>
>Sounds like you picked up the lead free solder and used it by mistake...in
>that case, melt off as much of the solder as you can and rebead with 50/50
>or 60/40 before applying patina.  It sounds like this is what you did and
>the piece turned out fine!
>
>C.
>
>Carol Swann
>Synergy Glass & Creative
>http://www.igga.org/synergy
>seaspray@island.net
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 06:12:42 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: rrkerr@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Toxic turp substitutes, was Re: Putty questions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:38:21 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 12:34:20 PM, rrkerr@pacbell.net writes:

>
>
>Witchdoc3@aol.com wrote:
>> 
>> In a message dated 8/4/99 10:47:59 PM, 75054.2542@compuserve.com (Monona)
>> writes:
>> 
>> >There are no "safe" solvents.  
>
>uhhhhhhhhh ... yes and no.  Water is a solvent too donchano.

For the record...... *I* didn't say that. I was just quoting. :-)

>> >But some of the turpentine substitutes such
>> >as d-limonene or citrus oil are much more toxic than turpentine.
>> 
>> Thanks for pointing that out. I'm sure there are plenty of people out there
>> who will see "citrus" on the label and think "Well, if it comes from
>> oranges/lemons/whatever, it must be safe" and then go sloshing the stuff
>> around. We tend to forget that all those essential oils (including the ones
>> in the herbs and spices in our kitchens) that come from plant sources were
>> evolved by the plants to repel and/or kill critters looking for a snack.
>
>
>Correct, so far as it goes anyway ... 

Admittedly an oversimplification (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) on my part, but 
prompted by a lot of frustrating experience with that segment of the 
population that thinks "natural=good" and "processed/refined=bad" and doesn't 
go any further with the word "organic" than "it came from a farm that doesn't 
use pesticides."

>>     "poison-free ant and termite killer" or something like that
>
>Probably not terribly effective as an insecticide if mint oil is the
>"active ingredient".  Certainly the pyrethrins have mint oils beat by a
>country mile as insecticides.  And mint oil also ATTRACTS insects btw.

Yeah, that's what had me scratching my head! (When I wasn't trying 
desperately not to laugh hysterically.........)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 06:23:37 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: andor@ilnk.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 08:38:15 EDT
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In a message dated 8/5/99 11:45:55 PM, andor@ilnk.com writes:

>North on I-95 to south of Philly and then head north west to Allentown on
>468 or something like that, I don't have the map in front of me, but does
>that sound about right?

You pick up I-476 (the Blue Route) from I-95 at the south end of Philly and 
just go straight north. I-476 connects directly to the Northeast Extension of 
the PA Turnpike (which is now I-476, it used to be PA 9 before the 
interchange was completed and you'll see it as PA 9 on older maps). There's 
an exit for Allentown, you just jump off right there. I don't have a map of 
the Allentown area in front of me either, but I don't think W-C is too far 
from the turnpike exit.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 07:11:28 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: meryder@pacbell.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 09:45:42 -0400
Message-ID: <37AAE702.B3536952@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Aug5.141841.0>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
Precedence: bulk

I was just wondering:  in the museum world, we use UV-blocking glass
to protect delicate objects (and we also worry a whole lot about
the amount and kind of light the object gets).  Has anybody ever
experimented with using UV glass as the back of a SG wildflower
piece (the side that would face the window)? It looks just like 
slightly tinted glass and so should work...it might slow down the
fading somewhat.

Also, I have a gorgeous diamond-shaped SG piece with wildflowers
sandwiched in the center, that I bought from a gallery in Blowing
Rock, NC many years ago.  Don't know who the artist was,
unfortunately.  The flowers had very subdued "faded" colors
when I bought the piece, but the artist had perfectly complemented
them with his/her colors of glass.  The whole effect is subtle and
very beautiful.  In other words, the loss of bright color doesn't
have to be a negative thing!

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
> the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
> from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
> from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
> drivers' side window of the car.
> 
> Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
> color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
> it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.
> c
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 08:36:00 1999
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: hotglass@list.bb.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 11:22:31 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.152231.0>
Precedence: bulk

Just a note in passing...thorium oxide and cerium oxide were and are used in 
many commercial dichroic coatings..sooo if you don't know the source...treat 
like old uranium glass (that not made w/ depleted uranium)..the thorium oxide 
is a definite hazard.

Jack
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 09:37:23 1999
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From: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Education in Glass
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 12:11:06 -0400 (EDT)
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Listed in Stained Glass Quarterly under college Degree Programs is:

Art Dept Whitworth College 
300 W. Hawthorne Rd 
Spokane, WA



Swansea Institute of Higher Ed
Architectural Glass Dept 
Alexandra Rd
Swansea, Wales  UK



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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <ATFSI@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 09:56:09 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.2569.0>
Precedence: bulk

>>Just a note in passing...thorium oxide and cerium oxide were and are used
in
many commercial dichroic coatings..sooo if you don't know the source...treat
like old uranium glass (that not made w/ depleted uranium)..the thorium
oxide
is a definite hazard.

Jack<<

Those of us that bevel take on a lot of creium oxide. If it was a poison
strong enough to kill an ant I would not be here.

Bob ( who polished 38 bevel inches with cerium oxide yesterday)


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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 11:11:07 1999
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From: ATFSI@aol.com
To: gregb@scottsburg.com, hotglass@list.bb.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:54:05 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.17545.0>
Precedence: bulk

Sorry if I hit a nerve..was reading the Uranium Glass thread...to clarify, 
these materials...Thorium and the radioactive  portions of the uranium 
isotopes are present in small quantities..and even in comparatively larger 
quantities are not considered very dangerous unless injested...harmless, 
probably when encased in glass...my comment was that thorium oxide (and 
thorium flouride) are still being used in the dichroic filter industry for 
commercial applications....so..the moral is ..if you'r grinding  up a fair 
amount of dichroic over time you might want to check where it came from..its 
doubtful you would find this in art glass dichroic as this is usually used 
with "soft" filters..but I'd be careful of surplus stuff of unknown orign, 
that's all...

Jack
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 11:41:52 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: lead free solder
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 10:58:51 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.35851.0>
Precedence: bulk

I know most of y'all will roll your eyes at this, but this is a
reminder to the people who might be newish to stained glass. If you are
using lead free solder, and you use your regular soldering iron with
its coating of regular solder on it, your lead free is no longer lead
free. 
Happy Scoring
chris

_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 14:18:39 1999
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X-Path: mail2.nai.net!shad
From: Family Account <shad@mail2.nai.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 16:48:03 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug6.12483.0>
References: <<199908060251.WAA27025@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Precedence: bulk

You can also suspend your name tags from bungi cords (as we know, this group
is into fashion statements).  I may just make some Emeraldine iron-on
tee-shirts this weekend!
Dorothy

"suzy@comcat.com" wrote:

> Somebody suggested adding Bungi on your name tags at Glass Visions - good
> idea so we can all find each other!
>
> Charles/Christie/somebody - will there be an IGGA booth this year? That
> would be the "place to meet" fellow Bungians.
>
> Suzanne
>
> suzanne albright
> suzy@comcat.com
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 15:24:07 1999
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X-Path: GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU!kaye
From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 16:36:18 CST 6CDT
Message-ID: <199908062136.QAA08389@relay.acns.nwu.edu>
Organization: GSA-ORSP
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I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?  
Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when 
they get theirs?

Thanks,

Kaye
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 15:50:32 1999
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From: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 17:44:45 -0400
Message-ID: <199908062142.RAA12402@uz.ComCAT.COM>
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8/6/99 4:48 PM Family Account shad@mail2.nai.net

>You can also suspend your name tags from bungi cords (as we know, this group
>is into fashion statements).  I may just make some Emeraldine iron-on
>tee-shirts this weekend!
>Dorothy

GREAT - but, what does Emeraldine look like?



suzanne albright
suzy@comcat.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 16:34:13 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Delores Taylor <atayloreddesign@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Education in Glass
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:37:09 -0400
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And there are glass schools in Glasgow
as well as Switzerland... with degree programs.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 16:53:30 1999
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From: BMarhon@aol.com
To: kaye@gsa-orsp.crown.nwu.edu
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Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 1999 18:50:30 EDT
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I registered on-line about a month ago and received my package beginning of 
last week.  I kind of wondered where it was myself until I got it.
Brenda Marhon

<< I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?  
 Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when 
 they get theirs?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Kaye >>
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 17:24:05 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Kaye Sodt <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 18:50:16 -0500
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References: <<199908062136.QAA08389@relay.acns.nwu.edu>>
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I've gotten mine.
I registered early.  Charles...are they all sent out yet? ;o)

Suzanne

Kaye Sodt wrote:
> 
> I have preregistered, so should be getting an "Info Pack," right?
> Don't know when to expect same, so would somebody post if/when
> they get theirs?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Kaye
> ----
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-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Fri Aug  6 17:46:30 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "suzy@comcat.com" <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
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Subject: Re: Glass Visions
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 18:49:35 -0500
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Sorry.....you wont find a bungi cord hanging from *my* neck....
but...I'll be hanging out with Pa Suzanne alot! ;o)

So, look for her...and find me.

-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 06:38:27 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Witchdoc3
From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 08:57:40 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.125740.0>
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Also sprach Bob ( who polished 38 bevel inches with cerium oxide yesterday):

>Those of us that bevel take on a lot of cerium oxide. If it was a poison
>strong enough to kill an ant I would not be here.

But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working with 
and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out 
equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get into 
the air, etc.

One of the things that got pounded into my head as a student in chemistry and 
chemical engineering 25 years ago is that almost anything can be handled 
safely if you know the hazards involved, have the right tools and equipment 
in good working order, and follow proper safety procedures. (Of course you 
can never entirely eliminate risk because Murphy is an Evil Genius, but you 
can certainly cut it way down!)


Sparks
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 08:46:52 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, <Witchdoc3@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 07:45:43 -0700
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>>But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working with
and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out
equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get into
the air, etc.<<

The answer to that is yes and no. The grinding surfaces are kept wet as a
matter of necessity as well as health safety. When polishing, my hands,
forearms and shirt front end up covered with a slurry of water and cerium
oxide. Work surfaces in the polishing area are well coated with the stuff.
Ants seem to walk through it without problem. My pet spider only regrets my
slopping it on her web.

Were the CO to be toxic in any serious way it would be a problem. I use it
sparingly but go through a 44 pound container in a year. I believe the main
hazard is to the lungs through breathing CO charged water vapor. Surely the
CO can be no better than whiting dust on the God installed breathing gear.

Bob


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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 12:17:45 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: First E-Tour Photos!
Date: Sat, 07 Aug 1999 11:18:04 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.4184.0>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
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Hello everyone!!

Steve Wernecke was Elisabeth's first host family and he snapped some
shots of her while site seeing in California! He has graciously allowed
the photos to be uploaded for all of us to see and enjoy. Steve says he
will be taking some pictures at the Maryland workshop too.

If all of the host families will take pictures I would sincerely
appreciate it and will include those in the E-Tour photo album as well.
You can send them along in an e-mail to me or upload them to the net via
your web site directory and I'll grab them from there.

The photo album is located here:
 http://members.xoom.com/GlassArt1/photos.htm

Thanks Steve!!!!!!!!


Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 14:42:12 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 14:25:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.82540.0>
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I am thinking about how to reinforce my tesselation piece which will be
foiled.  Because of the number of curves between one side to another, I was
going to use the thin braided wire.  But I am not sure that this type of
reinforcement really will add anything to the stability.  I plan on using a
wooden frame.  The piece will be approximately 24" x 24".  The bodies and
heads of the butterflies are double fused glass, which will add weight
throughout the piece, however, they are very small  (heads 3/8" and bodies
about 1").  I also melted frit into the wings, but it only slightly added to
the thickness.  I want to use the narrowest foil that I can get away with
maybe 1/8".    Maybe I should give up the braid, and just add a thicker
foil.  I need help deciding?

There is a gentlemen that is in our local guild, and he always gives me the
hardest time about the fact I absolutely never think of reinforcement until
I am almost finished....I tell him it must be a male thing to think about it
first!!!  He insists that I need to rearrange my priorities!  He is right,
of course!  Dammit!  cj

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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:04:42 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Thanks, Steve!
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:34:02 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.11342.0>
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Wow, there are even shirts available with the E-Tour "logo".  How can we
get one?

Thanks, Steve for the photos and for setting them up for us all to see.
It was fun to see the old "Big Sur" sight......the traffic on Hwy.
1.....is it like that all the time now?

Great idea to share with the group and those of us who aren't able to 
"E" in person due to time and distance constraints.

Diane Manchester
Tiffany Styled Originals
Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:28:00 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:18:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.14184.0>
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Message text written by "Claudette Jaramillo"
>The piece will be approximately 24" x 24". <

Don't worry about reinforcing.... it's not large
enough and the organic design has built in
strength.  Just make sure you have enough
overlap of the copper foil on each piece to
ensure an adequate leaf when you solder....
and make sure the solder runs between the
pieces of glass.  Remember, you're essentially
re-creating a lead matrix - two leaves with a =

heart sandwiched between two pieces of
glass.  Does that make sense?  That's where
you'll get the strength in the panel.  =


Just for anyone who might be interested, we
don't reinforce when the piece is smaller
than 14 perimeter feet, unless the design
specifically requires it.  Overbuilding a window
is a waste of time and materials.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:28:33 1999
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From: Gloyn@aol.com
To: creativeco@pdq.net, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Mosaic Glue?
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 19:19:33 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.231933.0>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Margo, I am currently working on a bird bath myself and am using the 
regular tile mastic, just taking a popsicle stick and applying the mastic to 
the back of each peice for the detail part of the design and then spreading 
it on the surface and then pressing the glass on for the larger regular 
border and background areas.  It seems to be holding the peices really well 
and even though it's a little sloppy I'm not being overwhelmed with glue 
fumes.  Gwyn
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 18:43:07 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium oxide
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 18:17:54 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug7.141754.0>
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>whiting dust on the God installed breathing gear.<

Not to mention the lead particles that probably
are suspended in that whiting dust.....

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Sat Aug  7 20:51:14 1999
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From: "Linda Jo Letscher" <andor@ilnk.com>
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puter problems and going on vacation next week.
Linda Jo

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 08:23:52 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 08:05:16 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.2516.0>
Precedence: bulk

Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger than
a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.

However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which is
to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct path
that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach it
to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj


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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: frit -Shirley G.
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 07:49:24 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.14924.0>
Precedence: bulk

Frit is (or is that frits are?) small particles of glass.  I make it by
pounding glass in a duct tape sack.  But you can buy it already done.  In
this case I used those very small glass seed beads.  I apply and fuse in the
kiln.  I had used spectrum glass on the tesselation, because I had it on
hand, and it didn't have enough --umph!  So I tried to make it more
interesting with texture and color in a very subtle way, because the pattern
is so busy.  cj

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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 11:01:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.6122.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.2516.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me with
this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail or if
it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to just
me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out yet!
Thanks!

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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:49:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.84928.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) wrote:
> 
> I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me with
> this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail or if
> it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to just
> me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out yet!
> Thanks!
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it came through fine

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:18:06 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:15:07 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.9157.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I see you! Hope this reply gets back to you :)
Kris

----- Original Message -----
From: Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 12:01 PM
Subject: testing!


> I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi
and to me with
> this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi
mail or if
> it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so
replying to just
> me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this
figured out yet!
> Thanks!
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:34:04 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG Chicago and Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:22:35 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.72235.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.6122.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Gotcha loud and clear Tracy. 
Anyone here live in or around Chicago?
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:47:07 1999
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X-Path: harborside.com!waterfall
From: "Roberto and Barbara Delgado" <waterfall@harborside.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: testing 
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 10:26:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.52656.0>
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I got your message for a test Northernlights.

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>I got your message for a test=20
Northernlights.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_0014_01BEE188.8A6C2E60--

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 11:49:03 1999
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X-Path: 7cities.net!cpjaram
From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Tracy--testing
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 11:55:52 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.55552.0>
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received.  cj

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 12:06:30 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mar333Wood
From: Mar333Wood@aol.com
To: Northernlights@pobox.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:33:17 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.173317.0>
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Tracy,
Mail is sparse today but it is coming through.

Until later,
Marti
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 12:07:33 1999
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X-Path: heesun.com!keane
From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: <Northernlights@pobox.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re:Testing
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 13:05:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.952.0>
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Got it

Robert
Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics
At 11:01 AM 8/8/99 -0500, Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann) wrote:
>I'm sending this as a test...if someone could reply back to Bungi and to me
with
>this that'd be great (want to see if I'm still getting "fresh" Bungi mail
or if
>it is older mail that was still floating around cyberspace, so replying to
just
>me won't help me figure it out).  Glenna, I know I'll get this figured out
yet!
>Thanks!
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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X-Path: inter-prog.co.uk!alan
From: "Alan" <alan@inter-prog.co.uk>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 18:08:15 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.19815.0>
Precedence: bulk

It's working



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X-Path: fuse.net!afields
From: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Fusing Wire
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:52:09 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.10529.0>
Precedence: bulk

I've been using copper wire to fuse  and my husband asked me why I don't
use stainless steel wire?  Can I do that and where would I get it?  I
haven't used anything but copper.   Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 13:59:21 1999
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X-Path: ix.netcom.com!gunnx4
From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Jenna Sanders
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 14:35:41 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.93541.0>
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I Jenna!  Will you email me please?
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 14:49:20 1999
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X-Path: soltec.net!tamis
From: "Tami Siddens" <tamis@soltec.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: NG Chicago
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 15:59:57 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.155957.0>
Precedence: bulk

Suzanne - How far around?  I live about 120 miles south - Danville,
Illinois.  Tami


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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fusing Wire
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:30:47 -0400
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References: <<1999Aug8.10529.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Arleen Fields wrote:
> 
> I've been using copper wire to fuse  and my husband asked me why I don't
> use stainless steel wire?  Can I do that and where would I get it?  I
> haven't used anything but copper.   Any help would be appreciated.
> Thanks
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


try to find an ortha dontist (sp?) they use stainless wire. if you have
one in your area he may have a catalog that can help. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 17:26:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.122643.0>
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Elisabeth.....
I have a question regarding my drawing for your workshop. :o)
There is a break line that I dont know whether to keep or lose.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:28:45 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: testing!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 99 06:57:53 
Message-ID: <199908090104.TAA20268@mantis.privatei.com>
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got you fine...
sunday night around 7 pm
Candy

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:42:18 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium o
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 21:04:39 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.17439.0>
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>From Monona.... thanks again!

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:   Monona Rossol, [75054,2542]
To:     Dani Greer, [105715,1412]
        =

Date:   8/8/99  2:39 PM

RE:     Re: Thorium and Cerium o


Dani--forward on to friend Bob.

>>But of course you're well-informed about the materials you're working
with and you're taking all the proper precautions, don't use old worn-out=

equipment, keep your grinding surfaces wet so the fine dust doesn't get
into the air, etc.<<

> The answer to that is yes and no. The grinding surfaces are kept wet as=
 a
> matter of necessity as well as health safety. When polishing, my hands,=
 >
forearms and shirt front end up covered with a slurry of water and cerium=
 >
oxide. Work surfaces in the polishing area are well coated with the stuff=

From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 18:57:40 1999
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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: NG: thank you!
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 20:30:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.153044.0>
Precedence: bulk

many thanks to those who replied...looks like Glenna and I have the
problem fixed and I'm back in single (rather than duplicate) mode.  The
messages were kind of like having deja vu, "I could have SWORN I just
read about this!"  :>

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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 20:59:34 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 8 Aug 1999 20:07:54 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug8.13754.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.122643.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Hi Suzanne, Hi All (Is this getting thru' to Bungi too...?)

Yep, I'm out here, very soon I'll be outta here;-> (heading for
Philadelphia tomorrow).
Leave the break line for the workshop and we'll discuss it then. Basically
speaking, have a good look at your design. If the line has no function,
then get rid of it. But for the excercise, leave it in pencil.  For all
YOU who are preparing your OWN drawings, I hope these are only PENCIL
drawings so far....!
See you ALL in a few days time  ;->
Elisabeth 'n absent Toby "incommunicado" in sunny California

On Sun, 8 Aug 1999, Suzanne Gunn wrote:

> Elisabeth.....
> I have a question regarding my drawing for your workshop. :o)
> There is a break line that I dont know whether to keep or lose.
> -- 
> Suzanne
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Choosing is only difficult 
> for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Sun Aug  8 21:31:17 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
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Subject: Re: E? are you out there?
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 22:38:42 -0500
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I thought we were supposed to have them almost ready to assemble....
heck....I guess I can relax now! ;o)

Whew..  I have myself a nice little panel for copperfoil....but dont
have a clue about the problems it will pose for lead came! ;o)
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 07:41:55 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: reinforcement
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 08:35:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug9.23529.0>
References: <<1999Aug8.2516.0>>
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cj:

the way I understand it is the braided reinforcement stuff is supposed to
soldered to add strength. What I have supposed is that I should use the
strong line for lead projects and use the braid for copper foil pieces. And
if you use the braid, leave enough space between your pieces that the solder
runs down in between and thoroughly solders the braid too--and that's what
adds the strength.

I agree with you--the strong line is a pain to use. The braid looks like it
would be a lot easier, but I haven't tried it either.

Shari

----- Original Message -----
From: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 8:05 AM
Subject: reinforcement


> Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
> flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger
than
> a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.
>
> However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
> types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which
is
> to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
> reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
> person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct
path
> that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
> aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
> braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
> amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
> the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach
it
> to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
> support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj
>
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 08:41:25 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Shari <shigbee@mtcon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: reinforcement
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 11:12:43 -0400
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Shari wrote:
> 
> cj:
> 
> the way I understand it is the braided reinforcement stuff is supposed to
> soldered to add strength. What I have supposed is that I should use the
> strong line for lead projects and use the braid for copper foil pieces. And
> if you use the braid, leave enough space between your pieces that the solder
> runs down in between and thoroughly solders the braid too--and that's what
> adds the strength.
> 
> I agree with you--the strong line is a pain to use. The braid looks like it
> would be a lot easier, but I haven't tried it either.
> 
> Shari
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
> To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 1999 8:05 AM
> Subject: reinforcement
> 
> > Dani....thanks for the rule.  I have been over reinforcing with the stiff
> > flat copper reinforcing strips!  I just sorta thought everything bigger
> than
> > a suncatcher needed this!  It is a pain, too.
> >
> > However, just for the sake of discussion, I have discovered there are two
> > types of thin braided wire stuff.  The first is what I call "wick" which
> is
> > to remove excess solder.  The second is supposed to be a braided
> > reinforcement and it looks different from the first...I only know of one
> > person who has used this, because her piece like my piece had no direct
> path
> > that was feasible for the stiff reinforcement without much pain and
> > aggravation...but to be honest I just don't have a good feel about the
> > braided stuff.  The very fact that it is braided means that it has a fair
> > amount of give to it.  I wasn't sure if any braided wire would distribute
> > the weight in such a way as to provide adequate support even if I attach
> it
> > to my lead or zinc frame. To me it would be like using a bungi cord for
> > support beam. Is this stuff just another gimic?  cj
> >
> >
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> >
> 
> ----
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braid is difficult to stuff into the joints, because it bunches. but of
the one's i tried that's the strongest. as long as you can shove that
stuff in between pieces, that's all you need, it is'nt really necessery
to leave addtional space. the braid soaks up the solder. 

braid also works better because it's already coated in a solder like
substance, which means that it does'nt corrode over time. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 10:12:20 1999
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From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Educational Question
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 09:51:41 -0700
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At California State University at Chico the Bachelor of Art, Sculpture/Craft
specialty definitely included glass, both hot and cold worked.  At the time
I was in the degree program (1979 - 1982), most of the people focusing on
glass chose to mainly do hot glass.  There was at least one person doing
large sculptures involving a lot of cold sheet glass with sand blasted
details.

As in most Bachelor's programs you would be required to explore a wide range
of media.  I am fairly sure they would allow a stained glass emphasis in the
last two years if you showed a good enough proposal for it.  You might need
to search out stained glass artists outside the school though depending on
who the current teachers are.  The main glass teacher in 1980/82 was pretty
good at stained glass, but his main interest was hot glass.  I suspect that
someone really focused on stained glass would have moved beyond his
expertise at some point.

----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Educational Question


>
>
> Is there anywhere that stained glass is built into a bachelor degree
> program versus a craft/vocational school?
>
> Pam
>





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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 12:12:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Start of a good week!
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 14:46:33 -0400
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Hello everyone!

I started my day today in a fun and
interesting way!  I received a check from
MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!
At any rate, I called them and sure =

enough it was incorrect... they were quite
shaken and confused by the whole matter....
and I am returning the check today of
course.  But, I know there's another even
better surprise just around the corner!  So
it's started the week on rather a delightful,
anticipating note!

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:05:57 1999
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To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Start of a good week!
Date: Mon, 09 Aug 1999 12:40:21 -0700
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Geez...and here I thought you were going to buy a round for bungi!

At 02:46 PM 8/9/99 -0400, Dani Greer wrote:
>Hello everyone!
>
>I started my day today in a fun and
>interesting way!  I received a check from
>MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
>haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!
>At any rate, I called them and sure =
>
>enough it was incorrect... they were quite
>shaken and confused by the whole matter....
>and I am returning the check today of
>course.  But, I know there's another even
>better surprise just around the corner!  So
>it's started the week on rather a delightful,
>anticipating note!
>
>best,
>
>Dani Greer
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:37:30 1999
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Start of a good week!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:26:38 +0000
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> I started my day today in a fun and
> interesting way!  I received a check from
> MCI Worldcom for $2464.00.... for ?, I
> haven't a clue!  But, what a nice surprise!

Dani, welcome to the wild n' wonderful world of computers (and those 
who run their keyboards). If human beings, being human, could make 
mistakes before, they can make even bigger, faster ones now. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 14:57:37 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
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::rubs Dani's foot for luck::

:D
chris
_____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 15:39:06 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: NG: Kudos to Dani
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 16:03:32 -0600
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And may I be the first to add Dani to Bob Du's name in our Bungi Hall of
Fame of Good Folks Who Do Good and Decent Things!!



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From owner-glass Mon Aug  9 16:10:17 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
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Date: Mon, 9 Aug 1999 18:14:07 -0400
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Message text written by "Albert Lewis"
>Dani, welcome to the wild n' wonderful world of computers (and those =

who run their keyboards). If human beings, being human, could make =

mistakes before, they can make even bigger, faster ones now. <grin>
<

So true, and then I got to thinking, is this Y2K- related
stuff already?  Might not be so bad.... hehehehe.  Then
I got to thinking, I haven't heard anything about USWest,
our local carrier being Y2K compliant... would sort of =

shut down a few functions, no?  If the local phone  company
didn't have dial tone... no long distance, no computer...etc.
Good thing I have addresses for just about everyone... now
here's hoping the city utilities get their act together.... last we
heard, they fired the Y2K team, hired someone new for
an additional few million.  Haven't heard anything more since...
the mayor is busy trying to get a fountain so we can be a
"real city". <Big Sigh>


Signing off from Planet Earth,

Dani
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 07:37:32 1999
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Glass Visions info, that is.

Kaye
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 09:08:05 1999
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Content-Type: text/plain;
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>>I had used spectrum glass on the tesselation, because I had it on
hand, and it didn't have enough --umph!  So I tried to make it more
interesting with texture and color in a very subtle way, because the pattern
is so busy.  cj<<

I very much like to increase interest in a stained glass project by doing
something that is out of the ordinary. Often this will take the form of a
bit of fusing or a colored bevel. Ordinary people (those that are not into
glass) will ask how it was done. This can lead to sales because the SG piece
is out of the ordinary and so special.

Bob


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 09:38:12 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:24:54 -0600
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I just make a small rectangle sack shape out of several layers of newspaper,
and then cover both sides with duct tape, and fold it and tape all joining
sides with duct tape.   Put in a handfull of glass before sealing the last
side and then I pound with a hammer.  Try to hammer without tearing the
sack...retape any tears if they occur.  Don't forget your safety glasses.
(My fourth graders made me enough frit to last me for years). I have three
different sized (screens) sieves found around my house but I sure if you
keep your eye out at the household section of any discount store you could
find different sizes.  After I have pounded thoroughly...you can check by
cutting open the sack and resealing if not enough.  I shake my frit through
the sieves removing the largest frit to the smallest.  Then I store in
babyfood jars (because they are clear).

I mix different COE's together, I have never had a problem.  I talked with a
man at the Albuquerque Crafts show this year, he made jewlery with frit and
glass.  He says he buys boxes of scrap glass for $5.00.  He has no idea what
the COE is...so his rule of thumb is...if it doesn't crack in two weeks it
is good.  Since then, I have never been afraid.

I found on the web, a guy who built a frit maker out of a sears stainless
steel garbage disposal.  He mounted the disposal in the lid of one of those
large plastic pails.  He then made a hole on lid of the bucket to mount a
shop vac, to vacuum out glass dust.  He uses a speaker magnet to attract any
metal particles out of the frit.  He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
does not give credit to the person he learned it from.

I only use small amounts, so what I am doing with the hammer works.  Happy
fritting!  cj



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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 10:08:01 1999
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Subject: Dalles de verre 
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 09:40:47 -0700
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Does anyone know a place that carries dalles de verre in this country
(USA)?  Preferably on the west coast.

By the way, how much do they run?  Sold by weight?

Found lots of stuff on dalles de verre on the web ... all in French of
course (no problem for me but probably is for a lot of folks) ... but
can't seem to find a shop that carries them.

Thanks ..... Bob
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 11:08:08 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 10:30:51 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.33051.0>
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>>He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
does not give credit to the person he learned it from.<<

Let's give credit where credit is due: Boyce Lundstrom in "Glass Fusing Book
1".

Bob


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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 11:38:26 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Thorium and Cerium o
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:08:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.1085.0>
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Another forwarded post from Monona follows.....

-------------Forwarded Message-----------------

From:	Monona Rossol, [75054,2542]
To:	Dani Greer, [105715,1412]
	=

Date:	8/9/99  7:03 PM

RE:	Re: Thorium and Cerium o



> Thanks, Monona.... came from bungi and
> I forwarded your response to them. <

I notice the subject line is "Thorium and Cerium..."  I didn't see anythi=
ng =

about thorium in the post. This is a nasty radioactive metal that I still=
 see =

used as an additive to glass, enamels, and occasionally ceramics.  Mostly=
 =

seen in antiques, but still available in some thorium red enamels.

Is anyone on Bungi using it or advocating its use?

Monona
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 12:11:07 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Dalles de verre
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 14:14:47 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.101447.0>
Precedence: bulk

Blenko makes and sells dalles... can
profess to their speed or service...
has been a bit tempermental in the past.
I think they're in the Sources Guide....
IGGA web page.

best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 13:40:55 1999
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X-Path: juno.com!tifstyorig
From: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: Dalle Glass & Glass Dictionary
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:07:39 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.9739.0>
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Forgive me, I don't remember the bungi contributor, but someone has
recently mentioned that Kokomo is starting to making dalle glass......

On another note, as I was scanning the web, I happened upon a GREAT
dictionary of glass terms......it is extremely comprehensive.  All you
glass literates, check it out:

http://www.artechpublishing.com/dictionary/index.html

Diane Manchester
Carthage, NC
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 14:43:02 1999
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From: "Robert & Jeanne" <keane@heesun.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Blenko Glass
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 16:43:41 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug10.124341.0>
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www.blenkoglass.com        

Hope this helps




Hee Sun Stained Glass, Ltd.
324 Main Street 
Reisterstown , MD 21136
410-833-3007 or 888-508-5595
keane@heesun.com
http://www.heesun.com
Custom Design Studio 
Supplies & Classes for Stained & Fused Glass & Mosaics

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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 15:14:03 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Diane W Manchester <tifstyorig@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Dalle Glass & Glass Dictionary
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 17:45:06 -0400
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Message text written by Diane W Manchester
>On another note, as I was scanning the web, I happened upon a GREAT
dictionary of glass terms......it is extremely comprehensive.  All you
glass literates, check it out:<

Thanks for that tip!  Great to pass on to
students...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 17:52:54 1999
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From: Witchdoc3@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:21:18 EDT
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In a message dated 8/10/99 12:39:19 PM, cpjaram@7cities.net writes:

>(My fourth graders made me enough frit to last me for years). [...]

<ROFLMAO> I'll bet they did!!!!!!!!!!!

>I found on the web, a guy who built a frit maker out of a sears stainless
>steel garbage disposal.

Now *that* sounds like my kind of guy!

>He then made a hole on lid of the bucket to mount a
>shop vac, to vacuum out glass dust.

Hmmmmmmmm.......... wonder why he doesn't run the thing wet (which is the way 
you're supposed to run a garbage disposal anyway, since the water provides 
both lubrication and cooling to some extent)? It would be a lot safer; vacuum 
bags and filters (except maybe the HEPA ones) don't catch the really fine 
stuff, and the not-so-fine stuff will cut up your filter anyway.


Sparks
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 18:25:28 1999
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X-Path: erols.com!deethom
From: Dee Thompson <deethom@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 1999 21:11:50 -0400
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990810211148.00973884@pop.erols.com>
Precedence: bulk

I took a course with Dan Fenton some years ago.  He pulled a red hot sheet
of glass from the kiln and dropped in a bucket of water....frit!  
I've done only it a few times since. It obviously needs a sieve, but it
turns out well for me, it's a bit coarse, but even.
Dee

 At 10:30 AM 8/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>He says he grinds all his own frit, 10 lbs
>in 15 minutes.  I saved a copy of his article, but it does not have his site
>address on it.  He said he read about this in one of his glass books, but
>does not give credit to the person he learned it from.<<
>
>Let's give credit where credit is due: Boyce Lundstrom in "Glass Fusing Book
>1".
>
>Bob
>
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Tue Aug 10 20:28:49 1999
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From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 99 08:45:56 
Message-ID: <199908110252.UAA04805@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

more on frit

I saw the garbage disposal trick in one of my fusing books, prob Gil Reynolds or such 
like..

I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel bowl covered in kilnwash, 
bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and pour it into a 5 
gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp, smaller the frit..

and you get some interesting fused pieces about marble size as well
Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 06:19:14 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:16:19 -0600
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Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
bowl covered in kilnwash,
bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
pour it into a 5
gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
smaller the frit.."

I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
any safety issues here?  thanks  cj

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 06:37:45 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: something extra 
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 07:24:22 -0600
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Bob D. wrote "I very much like to increase interest in a stained glass"

I know, I saw your Iris centers on your web page!  Very lovely!   cj 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 07:15:58 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Claudette Jaramillo <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:04:14 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.6414.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.11619.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Claudette Jaramillo wrote:
> 
> Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
> bowl covered in kilnwash,
> bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
> pour it into a 5
> gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
> smaller the frit.."
> 
> I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
> best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
> any safety issues here?  thanks  cj
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


if i had to guess, whatch out for steam, spitting, and possible
rejection. where goggles and the like. and don't burn yourself putting
in the hot glass.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 07:48:21 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!iluvscotties
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:39:28 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>
Precedence: bulk

I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
someone on the Internet.
It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
him/er the postcard.)

Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
the first got ruined).

Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
first to see how this particular artist does!)  

In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?

Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:18:12 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:13:37 -0400
Message-ID: <37B19315.AA28FB73@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
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Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
unhappy with the work?  I would hope that a firm, detailed,
 but evenly-phrased (i.e. not overly emotional or angry) complaint 
would get your problem resolved and your box re-done with a new card.  

I would be upset too if I received a piece of work like
that, but I think the right thing to do would be to first try to 
resolve it directly with the artist (and/or the vendor if you 
bought it through a third party). I'll bet (and hope) he/she/they 
will be eager to make it right.

PJ Jellison

Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
> 
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> the first got ruined).
> 
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
> 
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> 
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
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> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:36:21 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>, 'Scottie, Lover'
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:45:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.64537.0>
Precedence: bulk

I would contact the artist and see what s/he says.
Tell them you are upset about the smudge and will supply a replacement
postcard but you want it corrected or you expect a full refund. To me this
is the same as a crack in the glass itself and should be treated that way.

The "no unsightly unremovable smudges or other defects" is implied.

Vic M.
 vmodiano@ctronsoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Scottie Lover [mailto:iluvscotties@mindspring.com]
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:39 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Custom orders by mail?


I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
someone on the Internet.
It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
him/er the postcard.)

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 08:49:36 1999
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From: "Shari" <shigbee@mtcon.net>
To: "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>,
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:32:27 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.33227.0>
References: <<4.1.19990811103003.009503c0@pop.mindspring.com>>
Precedence: bulk

Oh man, I remember how excited you were about the enthusiastic response to
help you out. I can just imagine your reaction when you opened the
shipment--what a drag!

One would think that when dealing with an "artist", their pride in their
work would eliminate the need to put in writing "no unsightly messes
please". I can simply not imagine sending something I made to someone with
that type of massive flaw. Especially when they were paying for it!!!

So no, I don't think specifying that type of obvious point should be
necessary nor do I think it would help. Obviously, for your next 6 boxes,
you will choose a different artist. Perhaps ask for a couple of references
on the artist's work--and definitely contact them (the references) before
you place your order / send your money. Even non professionals like myself
could supply a couple of references--my sister-in-law who buys boxes for her
family members for birthday gifts, etc.

And you should probably have a heart-to-heart conversation (I suggest via
phone, not email) with artist #1 and tell them how you feel and ending with
your expectations of them making it right (refunding money, doing another
box, fixing the first one, etc......) If this conversation does not go well,
I might even mention that I will bring this issue up, including their name,
to bungi to get other's reactions.

Good luck, and I sincerely hope your next experience will be better!!!

Shari
Salt Lake City, Utah


----- Original Message -----
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 8:39 AM
Subject: Custom orders by mail?


> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the
glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
>
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one
if
> the first got ruined).
>
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
>
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any
good?
>
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 09:11:49 1999
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From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:34:03 -0400
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I understand your point.  I guess I just always try to give folks the
benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that I shouldn't!  My
thought on this was, sometimes glue changes its look or soaks
through as it ages or if it gets hot; what if the artist used glue on 
the back of the postcard to attach it, then finished the box and 
shipped it -- and then the glue seeped through in the heat of a UPS 
truck or such? 

I have absolutely no experience with making these boxes, and 
I'd be the last person to want to excuse truly shoddy
work -- I'm just suggesting that there may be scenarios we haven't
thought of, in which the smudge wouldn't have been visible to the 
artist.  In any case, I sure hope you can get it resolved amicably 
with him/her/them.

Cheers,
PJ Jellison



Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
> >Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're
> >unhappy with the work?
> 
> I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
> artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
> that anyone would be unhappy with it.
> 
> Thank you VERY much for your great help.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 09:55:53 1999
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To: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>, "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:20:00 -0400
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At 10:45 AM 8/11/99 , Modiano, Victor wrote: 
>
> The "no unsightly unremovable smudges or other defects" is implied. 


That's what I would have thought before this happened.  Thank you *VERY* much
for confirming that, and for your invaluable assistance.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:17:42 1999
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:18:20 -0400
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At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
>Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
>unhappy with the work? 

I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
that anyone would be unhappy with it.

Thank you VERY much for your great help.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:20:35 1999
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Subject: Fwd: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:46:39 EDT
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Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:46:06 EDT
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
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Hi there uluvscotties,

Too bad about your postcard/box. I would DEFINATELY send it back and have the 
person who made it replace the card with a new one. Sounds like it could be 
flux on the card or adhesive. If you were my customer I'd do it for no 
charge, and I would never have sent it to you that way to begin with- that is 
simply poor craftsmanship and poor business practice!
Is there a way you could replace the card by yourself (I'm assuming that you 
do glass) ?
 I'd also find a more reputable person to order from. 

just my 2 cents
Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:40:46 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:11:46 -0700
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If you paid by a credit card you have recourse..........
Call the "800" number for the card and explain the problem and ask to have
the purchase charged back to the merchant........You will probably have to
submit a written statement as to your complaint, too.
This will CERTAINLY get the attention of the merchant..............
NOTHING wrong with using a CC for most transactions........minor
observation, PAY IT IN FULL EACH MONTH......with careful charging and
watching the close date, you can get 45 days to settle up......
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 10:55:40 1999
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From: Suzanne Gunn <gunnx4@ix.netcom.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:12:13 -0500
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Im so sorry to hear what happened with your box.
Have you contacted the person who made it for you yet?

I consider it *incredibly unprofessional* of them to have sent it to
you in such shape, and manner.  

I would contact them, regarding them fixing it or returning your money.
I sure hope it was no one on Bungi.  It makes us *all* look bad.


If whoever did it for you wont fix it for you, perhaps there is a kind
soul on Bungi who will repair it for you free of charge...do you have
another postcard? (I really hope it isnt irreplaceable?)

Regardless what they charge you for the box, it should be made to the
highest standards.  That would include no smudges etc...

Good luck.  Please let us know what happens.
-- 
Suzanne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Choosing is only difficult 
for those with imagination
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:18:01 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:39:23 -0700
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Scottie,

OK.  Now let me get this straight.

You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?  

Is that it?  Or did I misunderstand?

Bob



Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> someone on the Internet.
> It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> him/er the postcard.)
> 
> Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> the first got ruined).
> 
> Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> first to see how this particular artist does!)
> 
> In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> 
> Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:27:21 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:22:24 -0700
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I suggest you put the box back in the mail and return it to the sender/maker
with a new post card and a brief note. Something like, "Please redo the
cover with the new post card that is enclosed. Something seems to have
happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie Lover"

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:48:36 1999
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To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 11:04:49 -0700
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Scottie,

okokokokokokokok ... just checking ... the original msg wasn't clear to
me.

Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
exact terms.  Very simple.

Regards ....... Bob

Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> _NO_.  I would never again order anything from this person.  Since I want
> six more boxes (different pictures, for different people), I'm trying to
> find out how to prevent this problem from whomever I order them from (which
> will very definitely _NOT_ be the person from whom I ordered the smudged box).
> 
> At 01:39 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
> >You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
> >next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
> >purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
> >competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
> >is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
> >more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:50:39 1999
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Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:44:31 -0400
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At 01:15 PM 8/11/99 , Suzanne Gunn wrote:
>The question is...have you contacted the maker of the box? and What was
>their reaction?

I E-Mailed him/er upon receipt, but didn't get any response.  I tried that
before posting to the list, since at least I'd like to know how to avoid
this sort of problem in the future.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 11:54:35 1999
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At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
>exact terms.  Very simple.

Okay, thanks.  This just seemed so obvious to me (since I can't imagine
anyone being satisfied with that huge, unmistakable smudge), but I will
definitely try to cover all bases next time <sigh>.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:15:17 1999
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> "Please redo the cover with the new post card that is enclosed.
> Something seems to have happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie
> Lover"

Yes, the assumption's being made here by many of those who responded  
that the craftsperson won't stand behind his/her work. Don't get mad 
until it's clear you're not going to get satisfaction with a smile 
and an apology.  If you don't, *then get mad. <grin>

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:26:07 1999
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To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>I suggest you put the box back in the mail and return it to the
sender/maker
with a new post card and a brief note. Something like, "Please redo the
cover with the new post card that is enclosed. Something seems to have
happened with the first one. Thanks, Scottie Lover"
<

You're entirely too professional, Bob... cut that
out!  Haha!

Best,

Dani
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From: StndGlass1@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com, hilary@voicenet.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: E-TOUR UPDATE!
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:37:10 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.183710.0>
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Just got off the phone with Elisabeth, and wanted to update everyone.  She 
says to say "HI!", and that she is doing well.  She has arrived in 
Pennsylvania.

Wanted to let everyone know that the second workshop to be held at our 
location (August 21 & 22) has been cancelled due to lack of signups, but that 
there are still spaces left in the August 14 & 15 class for anyone who wants 
to sign up now!  The class fee is $100 + materials, the materials list is 
below as Elisabeth wrote it.

The class will be meeting from 10am - 5pm on Saturday and Sunday, and we're 
looking forward to seeing everyone there!

Please let me know if anyone needs any more information.

Jenna Meredith-Sanders
Meredith Stained Glass
www.meredithglass.com

MATERIALS LIST IS AS FOLLOWS:
What tools should students  bring to the w/s???:

1.  paper, pencils, rubber, ruller, markies (red, black and blue)

2. 1 wooden board 2 inches larger all round than their design

3. 2 wooden battens lengths equiv to height and width of board, about 
1 inch  x 1/2 inch thick.

4. 3/4" nails with heads (about 20 - 30) and a number of horseshoe 
nails - if possible

5. a hammer

6. an old defunct blunt rounded dinner knife (i.e. no point)

7. an old defunct tooth brush

8. an old defunct nail scrubbing brush

9. grozer pliers

10. glass cutter

11. breaking pliers or anything similar from domestic tool box

12. sellotape

13. Garden tool sharpening stone (carburandum stone)

14. sharp plaster chisel (paint scraper)

15. soldering iron, sponge and stand

16. safety glasses/ gloves


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 12:50:09 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com" <HiimLaura@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fwd: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:45:51 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com
>If you were my customer I'd do it for no =

charge, and I would never have sent it to you that way to begin with- tha=
t
is =

simply poor craftsmanship and poor business practice!<

This could easily be moisture seepage that =

occurred after shipping.... I would contact =

the artist to find out if they will make good =

(before we condemn them to the slush pile
of lousy artists forevermore!)  They may be
more than happy to replace/fix the box in
which case you will know exactly where to
get the other six you want to order!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:08:15 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>, <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:35:24 -0400
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At 01:11 PM 8/11/99 , Howard wrote:
>If you paid by a credit card you have recourse..........
>Call the "800" number for the card and explain the problem and ask to have
>the purchase charged back to the merchant........You will probably have to
>submit a written statement as to your complaint, too.

I did pay by credit card (and, yes, I pay it off in full every month).  But
I didn't know that I could request a credit just because of dissatisfaction
(justified though it is, since the smudge is impossible to avoid).  Do you
mean that I can write to the bank holding the credit card and request a
refund (in which case I would obviously return the box)?
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:14:48 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: frit-Barbara
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 14:26:47 -0400
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Message text written by "Candy Thurman"
>and you get some interesting fused pieces about marble size as well<

And if you want smaller pieces, dump the frit back in
the pot, re-fire, then throw in water again.... again, and
again until you get the fine-ness you want.

Best,

Dani Greer-
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:29:56 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:32:17 -0400
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At 01:12 PM 8/11/99 , Suzanne Gunn wrote:
>I sure hope it was no one on Bungi.  

Sorry; it was.  That's why I was so careful with the s/he, him/er (*NOT*
that I feel that s/he deserves this courtesy).

>do you have another postcard? (I really hope it isnt irreplaceable?)

Yes. I could have understood this happening if either I had been in a
desperate hurry (when, instead, it was July, and the artist knew that it
was to be a Christmas gift), or if the postcard had been irreplaceable,
leaving no alternative (when, instead, I had specifically mentioned that it
was of a local scene, and I had purchased it in a local store -- i.e., it
is readily available, so I could easily have obtained another).

But thank you very much for your kind words.  I very much appreciate them.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:33:42 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:38:46 -0400
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_NO_.  I would never again order anything from this person.  Since I want
six more boxes (different pictures, for different people), I'm trying to
find out how to prevent this problem from whomever I order them from (which
will very definitely _NOT_ be the person from whom I ordered the smudged box).

At 01:39 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>You want some custom boxes made by an artist that you will give as gifts
>next holiday season.  Your plan is to get a bunch of them but you only
>purchase one example to see if the chosen soi-disant artiste is
>competent.  The work you receive is unsatisfactory; that is, the artiste
>is not competent.  Now you want our advice so you can go back and get
>more boxes from the "artist" who just demonstrated incompetence?  

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:49:02 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>, glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 15:33:29 -0400
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At 10:38 AM 8/11/99 , Albert Lewis wrote:
>Yes, the assumption's being made here by many of those who responded  
>that the craftsperson won't stand behind his/her work. Don't get mad 
>until it's clear you're not going to get satisfaction with a smile 
>and an apology.  If you don't, *then get mad. <grin>

Well, I haven't gotten any response to my E-Mail (which I don't take as a
good sign).  Moreover, frankly, I can't imagine sending it out like that in
the first place <sigh>.  Again, had I been in a desperate hurry or had no
means of getting another card, that would be one thing -- but the artist
knew that I don't need it until Christmas (and this was ordered in July),
and that I had picked up the postcard of a local scene (and can very easily
get more).
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 13:53:26 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: [Fwd: Re: fading wildflowers]
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:08:06 -0400
Message-ID: <37B1D81D.472C61FE@ceps.nasm.edu>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
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I think when I posted this originally I forgot to tag it for bungi --
anyhow I'm sending it now (even though that thread
seems to be done) in the hopes that someone here
*is* the artist who did this lovely piece...

(C'mon, if you're out there fess up and take some 
well-deserved credit!)

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

-------- Original Message --------
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
Subject: Re: fading wildflowers

I was just wondering:  in the museum world, we use UV-blocking glass
to protect delicate objects (and we also worry a whole lot about
the amount and kind of light the object gets).  Has anybody ever
experimented with using UV glass as the back of a SG wildflower
piece (the side that would face the window)? It looks just like 
slightly tinted glass and so should work...it might slow down the
fading somewhat.

Also, I have a gorgeous diamond-shaped SG piece with wildflowers
sandwiched in the center, that I bought from a gallery in Blowing
Rock, NC many years ago.  Don't know who the artist was,
unfortunately.  The flowers had very subdued "faded" colors
when I bought the piece, but the artist had perfectly complemented
them with his/her colors of glass (mauve antique).  The whole 
effect is subtle and very beautiful.  In other words, the loss 
of bright color doesn't have to be a negative thing!

Cheers,
PJ Jellison

meryder@pacbell.net wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately all "vegetal" colors fade from Oxidation and
> the effects of UV radiation.  I have a lovely silk dress which I bought
> from the artist, and the left shoulder and sleeve are significantly faded
> from the rest of the outfit thanks to the sun shining on me though the
> drivers' side window of the car.
> 
> Tinting the flowers in the glass piece with food coloring will strengthen the
> color and make it last a bit longer, but the ultimate result will be the same...
> it will fade somewhat rapidly if hung in a window that receives strong sunlight.
> c
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:01:25 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Scottie Lover" <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 12:37:19 -0700
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At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
>Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
>exact terms.  Very simple.

Very hard to do also! I would be hard pressed to reduce my requirements to
one side of one typewritten page. If someone came at me with such a want
list I would turn the job down flat. I do not cater to would be clients that
are pickey about things they likely know little about.

Actually seeing a persons work is the best way to judge their ability.
Failing that then references may be tried. BUT you can not get the list of
references from the artist. Fore if I were to give you a list of references
you can bet the list would be headed by my mother and followed up by that
wonderful person that almost jumped out of their shoes when I delivered last
month.

Your best bet may be to go to an established stained glass outlet and trust
that they stay in business because they do a good job. Even so I would only
order one before I placed the main order even if it cost me something in a
group discount. Many studios give a discount on repeat orders anyway. After
all, you are then a proven good client and that is worth a lot.

Bob

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:06:01 1999
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X-Path: texcom-mail.army.mil!kellypatrick
From: "Patrick Kelly" <kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil>
To: <glass@bungi.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: NG: Where in the world is "E"
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 13:33:22 -0500
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I just got a cold chill up my spine .... I feel the ominous presence of a =
"Viking"  (minus her K-9 companion). Please have mercy and tell me where =
she is.=20

Nadine, Lenore, Jenna, anybody.............HELP! I have to change my =
hiding place Friday.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:14:42 1999
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X-Path: home.com!kristc
From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:18:49 -0400
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This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
gotten around sooner or later.

I have NOT been contacted by email, or if an email was sent I did NOT
receive it. This customer also has my phone number, my toll free phone
number, and my postal mailing address (she did postal mail me the
postcard after all, and also has a flyer and business cards sent with
the box) so it is not like I'm hard to find. I DO stand behind my work
and I DO make every effort to correct any problems (not that I have
ever had a complaint or return before this) to the customer's
satisfaction.

That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
problem.

Please send the box back to me with a new postcard. I will take a look
at the box, see if I can figure out what happened, and I will repair
the box at no charge. If that is not acceptable please contact me in
any manner that you chose and I will make every effort to come to a
satisfactory arrangement with you.

My first response was to just refund your money in full immediately
because I am so hurt by your public smearing in this international
forum of artists, but my husband pointed out that I worked hard on the
box (which was $100 even, not well over) , and it cost me $30 for the
music box part of the order, and I deserve to be compensated if
possible.

Please let me know what I can do to resolve this in a satisfactory
manner.

Please note this as my public statement that I do have pride in my
work, I would never knowingly charge for (or even let out of studio
for free) substandard work, and I would always make every effort to
resolve a problem to my customer's satisfaction......  not that it
makes much difference now after all the cr*p that has been said about
me here today.

Kris



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:26:14 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:25:52 EDT
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Yes, I guess you are right, I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" (I thought: obvoius to the 
artist as well as to shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
packaging was damaged in any way. I promise not to jump to conclusions and 
condemn anyone to the incompetent artist pit before hearing their side! Now, 
if someone sent that knowing full well about "the blob," I'd love to hear 
their reasoning, wouldn't you?

time to eat!

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 14:32:04 1999
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X-Path: alpha.nad.adelphia.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@POP>
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:35:58 +0000
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>  Do you mean that I can write to the bank
> holding the credit card and request a refund (in which case I would
> obviously return the box)?

Just call the 800 number on the back of your card, Scottie. It's the 
customer service number ... you're the customer and can quite happily 
request service. <grin>

Just tell them what happened; I think you'll find they'll go to bat 
for you.

Albert
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 15:23:41 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:50:05 -0400
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At 04:25 PM 8/11/99 , HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
>I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
>seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" 
>(I thought: obvoius to the artist as well as to 
>shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
>packaging was damaged in any way.

No, the package wasn't damaged in any way -- and I don't think anyone could
have overlooked the blob.  That's why I'm so upset about it.
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X-Path: GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU!kaye
From: "Kaye Sodt" <kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Custom orders by mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:33:10 CST 6CDT
Message-ID: <199908112233.RAA14490@relay.acns.nwu.edu>
Organization: GSA-ORSP
Precedence: bulk

I think it's very interesting what's happened here.   It seems some 
of us (myself included) were a little too hasty in judging a situation 
about which we had heard only one side.  Granted, "Scottie" was 
only asking for advice in how to proceed, and maybe because we're 
all also consumers, we leapt to assist.  It's ironic, though, that as 
"glass people" we weren't inclined to be a little more generous to 
the artist's perspective.  

Thanks, Kris, for having the courage to step forward.  I, for one, am 
reminded of a lesson I should have learned a long time ago.

Kaye
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 16:27:44 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: FW: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:49:48 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.144948.0>
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heavens knows that we out here in the west love a good lynching, but could
we tone down the mob outcry just a little?

here we have a problem between a customer and a supplier of a piece of
merchandise. obviously the buyer isn't happy. however, they admit to not
being able to contact the supplier. we have heard from the supplier who
states that there are multiple avenues to contact her, with not all of them
being electronic email. face it, even it today's age, not all business can
and should be done via email, especially since the buyer has a phone number
and snail address.

i think it's a bit premature to talk of stopping payment through their
credit card, or boycotting of future purchases before attempting all avenues
of contacting the supplier to see if they'll make good on the problem. i
think it's very rare that a business won't work with an unhappy customer,
especially since it appears as if it might be possible (probable) the
product was damaged by heat during shipment. in the least case, the buyer
should actually be filing for damages with the shipment company and not
really with the maker.

for that matter, the credit card company won't actually backcharge the
supplier until the purchaser sends a written letter enclosing proof that
they've sent back, via registered and insured mail, the product anyway.

if all attempts to resolve the matter between the two parties fails, then
it's time to get the rope. :-)

regards,
charlie
phx, az

-----Original Message-----
From: Scottie Lover [mailto:iluvscotties@mindspring.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 2:50 PM
To: HiimLaura@aol.com
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?


At 04:25 PM 8/11/99 , HiimLaura@aol.com wrote:
>I just figured that sheluvsscotties message 
>seemed to indicate that "the blob" was "obvious" 
>(I thought: obvoius to the artist as well as to 
>shelovesscotties)...and she didn't say that any of the 
>packaging was damaged in any way.

No, the package wasn't damaged in any way -- and I don't think anyone could
have overlooked the blob.  That's why I'm so upset about it.
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 16:42:48 1999
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X-Path: stmassociates.com!shigbee
From: "Shari Higbee" <shigbee@stmassociates.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Apology to Kris
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:11:10 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.111110.0>
Precedence: bulk

I owe a public apology to Kris. I am sorry! I admit to jumping to
conclusions and not remembering the simple fact that there is always 2 sides
to each story. I have no defense, but I must have just assumed the customer
had
contacted the artist and gotten no where that way before they wrote to
Bungi.

Obviously that did not happen. Obviously they jumped in to complain before
going through any proper channels. And just as obviously, I made a huge
mistake by jumping on the bandwagon.

Thank goodness some of our more level headed members had the sense to
emphasize that you go back to the artist first with any question or problem.

Kris, I'm sorry and in no way meant to defame your work or your
professionalism. I obviously didn't know what I was talking about and vow to
keep my mouth shut (hands clenched?) next time until I do.

Shari



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:00:34 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:20:37 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.152037.0>
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
Well, I haven't gotten any response to my E-Mail (which I don't take as a=

good sign).  Moreover, frankly, I can't imagine sending it out like that =
in
the first place <sigh>.<

E-mails are not infallible (what, you say!  Problems on
the Internet??), the artist may be out-of-town and,
once again, the box may have suffered its damage
after it was mailed.  Ask anyone who has ever done
plating what a pain in the patoot it is to keep the
interior of the glass clean.... even after-the-fact.  I
would send another email, place a phone call, and
then if you don't hear anything, chalk it up to =

experience.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:02:15 1999
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X-Path: villagesoftsmith.com!steve
From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:05:19 -0700
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990811160519.00972380@mail.villagesoftsmith.com>
References: <<199908111837.OAA10949@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
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At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Kris wrote:
>This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
>then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
>and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
>gotten around sooner or later.
>
> [clip]

I'm not taking sides in this fiasco, but I'd like to observe that this
thread has taken talking behind someone's back to an incredibly rude level.
   

I think the original complaint might have been a reasonable thing to air on
bungi if the artist weren't known to be part of the list.  I was floored to
read otherwise later in the day.  So...the conflict resolution strategy
here is to talk "behind-the-scenes" about someone but make sure they know
you're doing it AND lure others unwittingly into the game?   Forgive me if
I'm not impressed.

I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.

Steve

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:16:24 1999
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X-Path: mindspring.com!iluvscotties
From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Fwd: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:08:15 -0400
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I _REALLY_ didn't appreciate the message below, and do not feel that it was
in any way warranted.   Having taken particular pains to avoid giving any
hint of the identity of the artist from whom I ordered, I don't see how I
can be guilty of "dragging this through the mud for all of Bungi to see".
Had I wanted to cause trouble, I would have specified the name of the
artist, and/or what it was that his/her URL had offered which no one else
seemed to include.

Instead, I was merely very upset about receiving something with a major
defect which I don't think the artist could possibly have missed, and
getting no response to my E-Mail, and very sincerely wanted to know how to
avoid this from happening in the future.

I don't think I deserved Tracy's attack, but am obviously not wanted here
so will agreeably uns*b from the list after posting this.  (Fortunately,
Eudora provides filters, so I can block any further attacks from her.)

But I do want to very sincerely thank all of the people who have generously
spent time and effort trying to help me.  From the bottom of my heart,
THANK YOU.

>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 17:02:29 -0500
>From: "Northernlights (Tracy Reitmann)" <Northernlights@pobox.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I)
>To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
>
>Shame on you!  I really would've tried more than "once" to get ahold of the
>artist before dragging this through the mud for all of Bungi to see.  Also,
>until you heard otherwise from the other person, it's best to give them the
>benefit of the doubt rather than jump to such an attack mode in a group where
>you know the artist also exists.  If you really felt the need to ask
advice, it
>would've been better to ask some of the people "off list" for their advice.
>People and how they deal with life and other people really disappoint me a lot
>of the time!

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:23:10 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:28:14 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811191609.00931100@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <<199908111837.OAA10949@alpha.nad.adelphia.net>>
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At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 , Kris wrote:
>This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud

I gave no hint to anyone (privately or publicly) as to the identity of the
individual from whom I had purchased the box.  No hints, no references,
nothing.  I didn't even allude to the fact that it was because you offered
a music box that I decided to order from you.

>That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
>here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
>clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
>look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
>you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
>requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
>artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
>problem.

It is very definitely a horrible splotch.  If memory serves, it was about
2x1 inches -- and UNMISTAKABLE from the front.  Period.  Believe me, I
WANTED the box to be okay, so kept trying to tell myself that it wouldn't
be noticeable, but it was no matter which angle I looked at it from.

>My first response was to just refund your money in full immediately
>because I am so hurt by your public smearing in this international
>forum of artists, but my husband pointed out that I worked hard on the
>box (which was $100 even, not well over) , and it cost me $30 for the
>music box part of the order, and I deserve to be compensated if
>possible.

Again, I think you have to give some hint to a person's identity for it to
constitute a "public smearing" -- none of which I did.  (And your quote to
me was over $ 100.)

>I have NOT been contacted by email

Well, I very definitely E-Mailed you.  Even giving you the benefit of a
doubt by assuming that you did not receive it, you could have simply
responded privately to my post and sought an amicable solution, explaining
that there was no blob when you sent it (after which I would have posted
that it had been amicably resolved and publicly apologized , instead of
your public post.

Personally, since it is hardly my fault that there is a BIG UNMISTAKABLE
ugly blob on the cover, I don't think that telling me to return it at my
own expense is a very good solution -- but then, if truth be told, I don't
see how you could possibly have missed that blob in the first place.  Never
mind the back of the pane; I mean from the front of the box.  That splotch
is the first thing you see <sigh>.




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 17:38:01 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:20:40 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.152040.0>
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Message text written by "Kris"
>
Please send the box back to me with a new postcard. I will take a look
at the box, see if I can figure out what happened, and I will repair
the box at no charge. If that is not acceptable please contact me in
any manner that you chose and I will make every effort to come to a
satisfactory arrangement with you.<

See, I told you so.... now let us know when everything
has turned out satisfactorily, okay?

Best,

Dani Greer (who really believes that most people are
good folk and that about anything turns out okay with
a good attitude.)
----
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 18:12:33 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Yegnim
From: Yegnim@aol.com
To: kellypatrick@texcom-mail.army.mil
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: NG: Where in the world is "E"
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:47:37 EDT
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Well, well Patrick,

The day of reckoning is nigh! Pull your glass tu-tu close together, 'cause 
there is definitely a chilly wind a-blowing in PA. The Viking has arrived, 
complete with Viking hat (with horns) and is out there looking for you!
There is also a resounding GGggrrr! resounding somewhere from an extremely 
hungry OES.
Let the hounds loose; it now time track down Mr. O'Tutu!
Find Boy!! Find!!
E....Brunnhilda, the Viking 

P.S.

Peggy dear, if you are reading this, please e-mail me here. Ilost my notebook 
in San Fransisco hotel, where all my back-up e-mail addresses are. They are 
sending it to me by snail mail, so it might take a couple of days......    :-<
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 18:43:51 1999
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From: "Jerri" <pigznpawz@mindspring.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:23:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17232.0>
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Precedence: bulk

I am just wondering, could the box have been fine when it was sent, but
perhaps the summer heat made the glue ooze so that by the time it got to
it's destination, it had the splotch?

Jerri




<SNIP>
> That box did NOT have a horrible splotch on the postcard when it left
> here. I would never have sent out such a thing!! I used a tiny spot of
> clear glue in 2 corners on the back, maybe 1/2 cm each, and if you
> look carefully on the back of the postcard under the solder I believe
> you can see the very edge. And to think I sweat about THAT and almost
> requested another postcard .....  but my husband and another glass
> artist who looked said no one would ever see it and it shouldn't be a
> problem.
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:04:41 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:24 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17024.0>
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Hi everyone-

I had a quite nice experience this past
few months teaching a 3-semester hour
college class in stained glass... some of
you will remember that I was experimenting
teaching this from a business stand-point....
training my competition so-to-speak!;-)  It
was a pretty successful venture, lost about
half the class the first week because it
was just too much work for them (that's the
community college environment for you...
you get a real mixed-bag of students), but those
that stuck with it did some really nice windows
for the first time out!  I was really proud of =

them.

I'm teaching another class in the fall semester
that's billed as more of a sampler, so I thought
I would teach it from the stand-point of the
gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
participate in big wholesale shows like the
Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  =


Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
the whole procedure.  Finally, they themselves
will act like the jury and critique their own works.

Any comments?  Ideas?  Please be sure to
post to bungi so everyone can get the benefit
of your great comments.  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:07:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:13 -0400
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Message text written by Steve Wernecke
>I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.<

Bungi is just a reflection of human nature in =

general.... and life.  It'll take a negative turn
now and then through a misunderstanding....
that doesn't mean any of the folks are mean,
nasty, jerks or anything else like that.  It's =

simply a misunderstanding that has to be =

cleared up.... methinks the world would be
alot easier place to live if we all exercised =

some manners and didn't take everything
so dog-goned personally.... not to mention
being in such a hurry.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:19:23 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:22 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17022.0>
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
Well, I very definitely E-Mailed you.  Even giving you the benefit of a
doubt by assuming that you did not receive it, you could have simply
responded privately to my post and sought an amicable solution, explainin=
g
that there was no blob when you sent it (after which I would have posted
that it had been amicably resolved and publicly apologized , instead of
your public post.

Personally, since it is hardly my fault that there is a BIG UNMISTAKABLE
ugly blob on the cover, I don't think that telling me to return it at my
own expense is a very good solution -- but then, if truth be told, I don'=
t
see how you could possibly have missed that blob in the first place.  Nev=
er
mind the back of the pane; I mean from the front of the box.  That splotc=
h
is the first thing you see <sigh>.


<

Sigh... I'm about ready for this to go off-bungi...
anybody else share my view?!!

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Fwd: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:00:17 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.17017.0>
Precedence: bulk

I can see Tracy's side of this, too, and really tend
to agree.  And that is the voice of experience =

talking having jumped the gun myself a few years =

ago.  I ordered custom bevels from another bungian,
Michael Minchelli, of course it was a rush job, and
after sending specs and a deposit and letting
a bit of time lapse, I made a follow-up call to get
a job status.  Well, I couldn't get a return phone call
back so finally posted a rather upset message with
bungi!  Well, poor Mr. Minchelli was only on vacation
for a few days and we did receive the bevels in good
order.  All that anxiety and panic was for naught...
fortunately, Michael and I worked it out and we left
the situation with great respect for each other.... so
all was not lost.  I'm convinced we're given these
"opportunities" to demonstrate just how much class
(or lack thereof) we really have.  A few bungians =

have already demonstrated themselves rather
admirably.... including the said artist. (And just
for the record, Michael Minchelli makes a pretty
fabulous set of bevels if you ever need custom
work done.)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:38:05 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!Mar333Wood
From: Mar333Wood@aol.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Good News
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:09:37 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.1937.0>
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Good evening everyone,
I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing 
Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to other 
bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age, 
my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area 
to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh, 
Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun. 

I think it's wonderful that there are still people out there who truly care 
for others. I've known Nadine for years and years and don't want to embarrass 
her, just wanted to share good news.

Now back to getting some glass ready for our Art Gallery's Grand Opening this 
Sunday.

Marti
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:39:14 1999
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From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: iluvscotties@mindspring.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:33:25 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.13325.0>
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Well, 

You guys obviously found each other, so why don't you take it off-line now 
and try to come to some conclusion about how you will solve this.

Remember, Iluvscotties, this IS a board for glass craftsmen/women to discuss 
their techniques, not a board designed to sell products, or a consumer 
complaint forum.

good luck

HiimLaura@aol.com 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:41:52 1999
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From: rrk <rrkerr@pacbell.net>
To: Bob Duchesneau <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 18:59:06 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.11596.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.53719.0>>
Precedence: bulk



Bob Duchesneau wrote:
>=20
> At 02:04 PM 8/11/99 , rrk wrote:
> >Personally, I would simply specify to the NEXT artist what I wanted in
> >exact terms.  Very simple.
>=20
> Very hard to do also! I would be hard pressed to reduce my requirements=
 to
> one side of one typewritten page. If someone came at me with such a wan=
t
> list I would turn the job down flat. I do not cater to would be clients=
 that
> are pickey about things they likely know little about.
>=20
> Actually seeing a persons work is the best way to judge their ability.
> Failing that then references may be tried. BUT you can not get the list=
 of
> references from the artist. Fore if I were to give you a list of refere=
nces
> you can bet the list would be headed by my mother and followed up by th=
at
> wonderful person that almost jumped out of their shoes when I delivered=
 last
> month.
>=20
> Your best bet may be to go to an established stained glass outlet and t=
rust
> that they stay in business because they do a good job. Even so I would =
only
> order one before I placed the main order even if it cost me something i=
n a
> group discount. Many studios give a discount on repeat orders anyway. A=
fter
> all, you are then a proven good client and that is worth a lot.


Hi Bob, =20

[we'll have to get together and make a stab at solipsism <smile>, though
maybe my little sig from times past will enable the others to
distinguish us more easily.]

Actually I agree and disagree with what you said. =20

[How's that for clarity <G>]  =20

However, considering the unpleasant turn this particular thread has
taken [and this thread DEFINITELY needs to die], let's discuss these
points at a later date.  Agreed?  Maybe we can start a new thread about
this in a couple of weeks.

Best regards ........ <O=BFO> Bob (aka ez)
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 19:52:33 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>, "Everyone" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:18:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.181835.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.17024.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Good idea, Dani.
I think a frame would be almost a "must". I would go one step farther and
have them make an avant garde frame and a very traditional one. If there
isn't time to actually construct both, I would have them draw them, complete
with glass suggestions, but at least build one. That way, they can deal with
marbles, globs, copper foil sheets, stabilizing, etc. Lots to learn on a
very quick project.
I love your idea about doing a jury application. Good, good idea!
Good luck.. Mary
----- Original Message -----
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 9:00 PM
Subject: Need some gift market help


> Hi everyone-
>
> I had a quite nice experience this past
> few months teaching a 3-semester hour
> college class in stained glass... some of
> you will remember that I was experimenting
> teaching this from a business stand-point....
> training my competition so-to-speak!;-)  It
> was a pretty successful venture, lost about
> half the class the first week because it
> was just too much work for them (that's the
> community college environment for you...
> you get a real mixed-bag of students), but those
> that stuck with it did some really nice windows
> for the first time out!  I was really proud of =
>
> them.
>
> I'm teaching another class in the fall semester
> that's billed as more of a sampler, so I thought
> I would teach it from the stand-point of the
> gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
> of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
> participate in big wholesale shows like the
> Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
> have three assignments... developing three
> items for the gift market.... an original tree
> ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
> 3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
> hot?  =
>
>
> Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
> or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
> they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
> the whole procedure.  Finally, they themselves
> will act like the jury and critique their own works.
>
> Any comments?  Ideas?  Please be sure to
> post to bungi so everyone can get the benefit
> of your great comments.  Thanks!
>
> Best regards,
>
> Dani Greer
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:14:48 1999
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X-Path: ghostman.com!candy
From: "Candy Thurman" <candy@ghostman.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mike Savad" <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: frit- Candy
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 99 06:45:29 
Message-ID: <199908120052.SAA12211@mantis.privatei.com>
Precedence: bulk

On Wed, 11 Aug 1999 10:04:14 -0400, Mike Savad wrote:

>Claudette Jaramillo wrote:
>> 
>> Candy wrote "I personally, put all the bullseye scrap in a stainless steel
>> bowl covered in kilnwash,
>> bring it up to 1000 and then open the kiln and take it out (with gloves) and
>> pour it into a 5
>> gal bucket with some water filling 1/4 of it.. great frit.. higher the temp,
>> smaller the frit.."
>> 
>> I am running a batch this morning, just so I can see this.  I always get the
>> best ideas here!!!!  My fourth graders would probably love to see this too!
>> any safety issues here?  thanks  cj
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>if i had to guess, whatch out for steam, spitting, and possible
>rejection. where goggles and the like. and don't burn yourself putting
>in the hot glass.
>
>---Mike Savad

Mike ,, believe it or not, we were fully prepared for the same thing.. imagine our surprise 
when the only thing that happened was... plop plop and it didn't look any different than it 
did when it went in.. we laughed and I reached in fully expecting hot water (not!) but it 
was warm.. and then I picked up a piece and put it on the table, fully disgusted that it 
didn't work.... and so, because I do these things, I picked it up and played with it.. and it 
crumbled nicely in my hand..

Invention and discovery!!!

Candy

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:28:12 1999
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From: "laurie good" <lauriegood@hotmail.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 19:24:56 PDT
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>From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
>To: glass@bungi.com
>Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
>Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 16:05:19 -0700
>
>At 04:18 PM 8/11/99 -0400, Kris wrote:
> >This craftsman feels like her name has been drug through the mud, and
> >then she has been spit on. Yes, it is me you are all talking about,
> >and since this really isn't that big a community, word would have
> >gotten around sooner or later.
> >
> > [clip]
>
>I'm not taking sides in this fiasco, but I'd like to observe that this
>thread has taken talking behind someone's back to an incredibly rude level.
>
>
>I think the original complaint might have been a reasonable thing to air on
>bungi if the artist weren't known to be part of the list.  I was floored to
>read otherwise later in the day.  So...the conflict resolution strategy
>here is to talk "behind-the-scenes" about someone but make sure they know
>you're doing it AND lure others unwittingly into the game?   Forgive me if
>I'm not impressed.
>
>I sure hope bungi can reverse the negative turn it has taken of late.
>
>Steve

I totally agree with you Steve.  Kris, I hope you and your customer can 
solve this in a civil matter outside of bungi.  My best to you.
>----
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_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:45:41 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Apology to Kris
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:08:58 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.16858.0>
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Thank you so much, you and everyone else who has taken the time to
write. I'm not upset with anyone on the list. I'm sure you figured the
customer was frustrated because the supplier really was being
unresponsive. It's just after a couple dozen emails, it got to me and
I couldn't help speaking up. I guess this is a lesson to us all to
take a deep breath as needed! I know you are all good people and you
try help folks :)
Kris

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:45:49 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:57:21 -0400
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I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
(1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
way not to 
      notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
don't think anyone could 
      possibly have missed it.
(2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
politely asking how to
      prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
wanted to purchase six 
      more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
of the artist, not even r
      referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
say that I had chosen her 
      because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
who I had purchased it 
      from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
problems form occurring in 
      the future.

So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?  

In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  

I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
in any way.
. 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:58:17 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Malicous E-Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:56:53 -0400
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I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
(1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
way not to 
      notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
don't think anyone could 
      possibly have missed it.
(2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
politely asking how to
      prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
wanted to purchase six 
      more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
of the artist, not even r
      referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
say that I had chosen her 
      because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
who I had purchased it 
      from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
problems form occurring in 
      the future.

So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?  

In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  

I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
in any way.
. 
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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 20:59:55 1999
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From: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Fraud / Vicous Hate Mail
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:12:15 -0400
Message-ID: <4.1.19990811210136.009429e0@pop.mindspring.com>
References: <<005301bee45c$51cbfdc0$bc318118@net.mediaone.net>>
Precedence: bulk

I just received a very nasty, vituperative E-Mail from "Mary"
<embee@mediaone.net> about what a despicable person I am, and how I owe
Kris a public apology.

Since the box arrived with a BIG UGLY SPLOTCH on the front (and I don't see
how anyone could possibly have overlooked it), and I merely posted an
inquiry to find out how to avoid this sort of problem in the future (since
I want to purchase six additional boxes, albeit not from that artist), and
took particular pains to avoid any hint of the artist's identity (e.g., I
didn't even say "she", mention that I'd picked her's because of the music
box, etc. -- NOTHING), I do not see why _I_ owe anyone a public apology.
IMHO, Kris owes ME a huge apology for sending the box in that condition.

This hate mail has me even more upset than the defaced box does -- and all
the hate mail is doing is motivating me to notify the US Postal Dept of
Mail Fraud, Better Business Bureau, et al (since I don't see how she could
possibly have overlooked that big ugly splotch, etc).  

All you've taught me is that the bungi list is a closed group, that you'll
protect your own regardless of the problem(s) or issue(s) involved, that
sending damaged, defaced merchandise is fine as long as it is one of your
own, and that you will viciously attack anyone who dares to speak up, even
if they take pains not to name names or give any hint as to the artist's
identity.

The vicious Mary has done enough.  LEAVE ME ALONE.  You've succeeded in
driving me off the list and becoming afraid to order anything from you so
I'll never darken your paths again.  JUST LEAVE ME ALONE.



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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 21:16:33 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:42:30 -0700
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Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk



Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:

> Good evening everyone,
> I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing
> Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to other
> bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age,
> my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area
> to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh,
> Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun.
>
>

Good evening to you too Marti and all,

Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a houseful of
gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all looking
forward to pictures I'll have you know :)

Marti, good luck with your grand opening!!!!


Pam



Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 21:27:18 1999
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From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 20:52:12 -0700
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I second the motion for dead thread.

Although I must say bungi has been quite interesting lately :)

Pam

--

Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:16:13 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:27:00 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.14270.0>
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>>I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  <<

Garden stakes are popular now. Sometimes they are called plant buddies and
may take the form of a butterfly on a piece of brass welding rod. But I have
found a site that takes this much further. Go to:
http://www.stonemanorlighting.com to see a very nice extension of the simple
garden stake. When you realize that the stems are 1/4" copper tubing
gracefully bent and the leaves are simply shaped from sheet copper these
seemingly hard projects get reduced to the student level.

I believe that the student could make their own designs and produce for
$5.00 in material, say, something like the dragonfly that retails for
$240.00 and is on special for $180.00.

Bob

Ps: You might make a few too!



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From: "Daniel" <dro@teleport.com>
To: "Pamela Burns-Tappan" <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 21:54:25 -0000
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.215425.0>
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>I second the motion for dead thread.
>
=====================================

All right!!  ..........enough now...

                    ........Don't make me get the hose....




Daniel

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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:35:52 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 00:23:02 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.20232.0>
References: <<4.1.19990811225656.00946750@pop.mindspring.com>>
Precedence: bulk



> I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
> <embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.

OK... even though I thought this was over, following is my "vituperative"
letter.

>You just don't understand yet. It wasn't that you named Kris, or not. That
isn't the issue. The issue is that you knew she would see your post, and the
gathering storm of indignation that resulted. If I were Kris, I would be
totally upset and ashamed. Put yourself in her shoes. Like she said, whether
you said her name at the time or not, her identity was bound to surface.

Rather than unsubscribing, why not simply post an apology without any
further explanations? That is the harder thing to do, but it's more than
apparent that you were a bit premature in assuming she wouldn't get in touch
with you. And by saying that, I am not saying it was with malice, you just
simply didn't give it enough effort before you spoke.  Not the first time it
will happen, and not the last.  I don't think anyone thinks you deliberately
set out to slander Kris, or impugn her integrity, but unfortunately, it
escalated almost to that point, and remember.. she was reading all those
posts.
I bet once you consider it in a calmer frame of mind, you will understand
people's indignation, apologize for the oversight, and let it go.<

Enough said?
Mary




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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 22:47:37 1999
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From: Steve Wernecke <steve@villagesoftsmith.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 22:08:23 -0700
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References: <<1999Aug12.1937.0>>
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At 08:42 PM 8/11/99 -0700, Pamela Burns-Tappan wrote:
>
>
>Mar333Wood@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Good evening everyone,
>> I had lunch with Nadine last week and she was so excited about seeing
>> Elisabeth this weekend. She has opened her heart and beautiful home to
other
>> bungi's. Elisabeth, Suzanne, Steve, Lenore and I think one other (as I age,
>> my memory gets dim) when they come to the area. They will be in the DC area
>> to see Elisabeth. Boy, wish I could be there too. She has great wine!  Oh,
>> Patrick! You can't hide, put on your tutu and join the fun.
>>
>>
>
>Good evening to you too Marti and all,
>
>Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a
houseful of
>gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all
looking
>forward to pictures I'll have you know :)

lol...some of us have to suffer for the cause!   

I'm glad I'm not one of them ;-)

Steve


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From owner-glass Wed Aug 11 23:08:54 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 01:54:04 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug11.21544.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.14270.0>>
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Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to make something
like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't begin to figure
THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as easy as it seems
to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. The vases look
like upside down witch's hats (for lack of a better description), made from
papier mache, painted bright colors with gold powders mixed in the varnish.
Really neat! The copper was a breeze to make into a coil in which to hold
the vases, but I haven't ventured into the sheets yet.
I am really interested in making some pathway lights though. Would anyone
care to enlighten (pun) me as to the wiring??
Thanks!
Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 04:22:28 1999
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X-Path: aol.com!HiimLaura
From: HiimLaura@aol.com
To: GreerStudios@compuserve.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:02:40 EDT
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.11240.0>
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Hey! Don't knock community college students! I am a graduate of both a 
community college and a four-year university, (and I too teach, though not 
stained glass) and from my expierience, I found that the students at 
university were/are MUCH less into  school/classes/learning acdemics than 
those at cc, and much more into partying...  (just MHO that I couldn't not 
add here - sorry!)
Now for the other stuff:
Our local CC has a course close to what you are thinking of "Professional 
Crafting" or something - but not just for stained glass - all crafts - it's 
only from the business aspect and explains crafter's insurance, keeping 
acurate tax records, etc. If I can find the course description I will post it.

Laura
HiimLaura@aol.com    
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 05:24:27 1999
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From: Carol Tombro <ctombro@InfoAve.Net>
To: Daniel <dro@teleport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Custom orders by mail?
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 07:34:02 -0700
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I third that motion.  This thread has become unraveled.  Let it go.

CT

Daniel wrote:

> >I second the motion for dead thread.
> >
> =====================================
>
> All right!!  ..........enough now...
>
>                     ........Don't make me get the hose....
>
> Daniel
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 06:28:22 1999
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From: "Evelyn C Mason" <ABBIE23875@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: E-Tour.....
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 09:22:36 -0400
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Hi all....due to work schedule, I had to cancel my trip to Maryland this
week to meet with you all....I am so glad to see the pictures from "E"s
adventures while she is here....please continue and take some shots of the
panels you guys are making, too, [at the workshops].....you all have a great
time and I hope to meet with you all sometime later on...Abbie in
Va.....back to the grindstone!

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 07:58:31 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 10:33:04 -0400
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Scottie Lover wrote:
> 
> I just received two vituperative private E-Mails from "Mary"
> <embee@mediaone.net> insisting that I owe Kris a public apology.
> (1)  Kris sent me a box with a BIG BLOB SPLOTCH on the center top. The only
> way not to
>       notice it woudl be to turn off the lights and close the blinds; I
> don't think anyone could
>       possibly have missed it.
> (2)  When Kris didn't respond to my E-Mail, I posted a message to the list
> politely asking how to
>       prevent that sort of problem from occurring in the future, since I
> wanted to purchase six
>       more boxes (albeit not from her).  I made sure I gave no indication
> of the artist, not even r
>       referring to gender, location, style, or specialty (e.g., I didn't
> say that I had chosen her
>       because I wanted a music box -- I said nothing that could indicate
> who I had purchased it
>       from, and sincerely wanted only to find out how to avoid such
> problems form occurring in
>       the future.
> 
> So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
> DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
> reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)?
> 
> In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
> customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheating.
> 
> Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make sure
> I never again have anything to do with any of you.
> 
> I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
> LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
> on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not only
> SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak up
> in any way.
> .
> ----
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let me say i'm not on anyone's side...


first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.

secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
were not only ok, but the right size. 

what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box. 

samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
repacked it and sent it back out.


if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
now. 

from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
check their email all that often...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 08:58:26 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:25:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.72536.0>
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Message text written by Dani Greer
>I would teach it from the stand-point of the
gift market... wholesale and retail.  I know lots
of you sell to gift stores, do the fair circuit, and
participate in big wholesale shows like the
Rosen Show.  I'm thinking these students will
have three assignments... developing three
items for the gift market.... an original tree
ornament maybe, a gift box (they'll never get
3-D again), and .... what?  What's cool?  What's
hot?  =3D<

No pre-conceived notion.  Let them do the market research
and come up with their own ideas.  That's what marketing is
all about!  Don't spoon-feed them, let them do their own research
and you'll be pleasantly suprised at how inventive some folk
are!

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 09:15:21 1999
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From: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:25:38 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.72538.0>
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Dani Greer
>Then, they'll also be required to find a festival
or gift shop that they might want to jury into....
they'll have to acquire jury forms and go through
the whole procedure.<

Speaking from a juror's point of view, I would not like it
if I received x number of applications where the applicant
actually had no plans for attending the show.  A lot of
application forms are contracts between the show producer
and the artist.  As in..."by submitting this application form you
are committing yourself to attend the show."  And a lot of the
shows have a heavy penalty for no-shows and people who
cancel.

So....be careful about how you set this up.  Don't have the
student mail in the application form if they are not serious.
It's perfectly OK for them to solicite application forms to be
sent to them.  In fact, I can mail you quite a few I've collected
over the years.  But don't have them mail in the filled-out
form if they are not serious about participating in the event.

Christie Wood/Art Glass Ensembles
405 E. Walnut St. Rear
North Wales, PA 19454
http://www.igga.org/wood/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:01:39 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 12:22:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.82236.0>
Precedence: bulk

try lighting glass works with fiber optics. see http://www.toddsfiber.com/
for a good source.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mary [mailto:embee@mediaone.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 1999 10:54 PM
> To: Bungi
> Subject: Pathway lights
> 
> 
> Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to 
> make something
> like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't 
> begin to figure
> THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
> By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as 
> easy as it seems
> to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. 
> The vases look
> like upside down witch's hats (for lack of a better 
> description), made from
> papier mache, painted bright colors with gold powders mixed 
> in the varnish.
> Really neat! The copper was a breeze to make into a coil in 
> which to hold
> the vases, but I haven't ventured into the sheets yet.
> I am really interested in making some pathway lights though. 
> Would anyone
> care to enlighten (pun) me as to the wiring??
> Thanks!
> Mary
> 
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:32:23 1999
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From: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:20:06 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.5206.0>
Precedence: bulk

Is this a beginner's class?  Or is it a more advanced class?  From a
beginner's perspective, I have two conflicting feelings.

I think the thought of knowing that my "learning" work would be judged would
intimidate the h*ll out of me!  But I know from previous experience that if
given this as a criterion of the class, I would force myself to rise to the
occasion.  When I took the advanced class, my instructor coerced me to put
two pieces of mine in a juried show (no one else was encouraged)...I was
glad she did....AFTER!  but my stomach hurt for the whole week before.
Having work judged is scary stuff for a person who does not percieve
themselves as an artist but as an apprentice.  I think you will need to hold
a few hands... and have the pepto handy for those of us that show our fear
in the intestinal tract!!!  However, the judges at the show, were very kind
and gracious and gave me suggestions on how to improve my work.  One of my
pieces made it, and one did not.  Over all I saw this as a positive
experience, so please understand, I am not negative here.  But I want you to
know that some of your students may throw up.  cj

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 10:49:46 1999
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From: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
To: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
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Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:36:44 -0500
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Mike Savad wrote:
>
> let me say i'm not on anyone's side...

But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!


> 
> first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
> but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.
> 
> secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
> shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
> damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
> were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
> notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
> were not only ok, but the right size.
> 
> what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
> water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
> newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box.
> 
> samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
> through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
> repacked it and sent it back out.
> 
> if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
> bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
> never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
> now.
> 
> from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
> respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
> what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
> check their email all that often...
> 
> ---Mike Savad
> 
> --
> Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> 2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> too and A Look at Sky City
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 11:39:30 1999
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X-Path: teleport.com!weaver51
From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:02:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.4216.0>
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At last another thread........
Some of us do REAL well under pressure, others cower and cringe.
If "doing" glass becomes a source of stress and causes a system upset
(yours).....WHY??????????????????volunteer to put yourself in that position.
Previous posts of mine also questioned the "credentials" of the jury.
The ultimate judge is (if you are doing this for financial gain) the person
with the money who buys it........All the praise and kudos and $3.00 buys
coffee (starbucks please,,,,,have stock in it)........without
$3.00..........hard to buy coffee!
When I was teaching (may be back at it soon), I encouraged my students to
try and sell their work, or at least test the commercial areas.....compare
theirs to the stuff out there and see the differences....also keep time on a
project to see if it commercially viable......100's of hours for a few
hundred dollars just does not make it.
this should stir the pot a bit.......enjoy, H


weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:00:41 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "Charles R. Clark" <dwood@sky.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:02:20 -0400
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Charles R. Clark wrote:
> 
> Mike Savad wrote:
> >
> > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
> 
> But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!
> 
> >
> > first of did you enter her email address properly? you may have sent it
> > but she may never have recieved it, could of been a huge delay, etc.
> >
> > secondly the box it came it, was it the original box? when i was a
> > shipper we recieved a package. that package was a sealed box with loose
> > damaged goods. they were road atlases that were dropped in water. they
> > were ruined. UPS never told anyone about it, assuming no one would
> > notice, the box had no damage of any kind. all the other boxes that came
> > were not only ok, but the right size.
> >
> > what turned out that happened was that some doof dropped the box in
> > water somewhere along the line, soaked it, then replaced the box with a
> > newone. ripping the old label off and taping it onto the new box.
> >
> > samething could of happened here. some guy could have opened mid way
> > through dropped something on it, did something to it accidently,
> > repacked it and sent it back out.
> >
> > if i were that artist i would have never sent something out that looks
> > bad. if a glue was used and something went wrong (something that could
> > never have been forseened), there would be no way to know except for
> > now.
> >
> > from what i can see your being irate over very little, the artist did
> > respond in someway. the email may never have gotten to her, and from
> > what i can tell it's only been a few days anyway. some people don't
> > check their email all that often...
> >
> > ---Mike Savad
> >
> > --
> > Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
> > http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> > 2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
> > Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
> > too and A Look at Sky City
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


alright so it does, it is on the artists side. but giving benifit of the
doubt as well. i'm still having problems imagining what the box looks
like. if i were the artist i'd be very curiuos as too what it looks
like. what could have caused the problem. if the glue soaked into the
postcard and effected the ink in some way. 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:06:39 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Apology to Kris
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:04 -0400
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Message text written by "Kris"
>Thank you so much, you and everyone else who has taken the time to
write. I'm not upset with anyone on the list. I'm sure you figured the
customer was frustrated because the supplier really was being
unresponsive. It's just after a couple dozen emails, it got to me and
I couldn't help speaking up. I guess this is a lesson to us all to
take a deep breath as needed! I know you are all good people and you
try help folks :)
Kris

----<

And you've demonstrated to us what a class
act and professional you really are.... glad you're
part of the group.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:22:29 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:42 -0400
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Message text written by Scottie Lover
>
So *I* (the VICTIM) owe *HER* an apology for having sent me something
DEFECTIVE. for merely having asked how to prevent such problems from
reoccurring (without giving any hint as to her identity or even gender)? =
 =


In other words, you artists all stick together, and don't care if a
customer is cheated as long as it is one of your own who does the cheatin=
g.

Well, you've convinced me.  I've uns*bbed from the list, and will make su=
re
I never again have anything to do with any of you.  =


I have Eudora set to automatically trash most of your messages, so just
LEAVE ME ALONE.  Get a life and bother some other poor victim.  From now
on, anything I receive from you will be forwarded to your ISPs as not onl=
y
SPAM but FRAUD since you're blaming the victim for having dared to speak =
up
in any way.
. =

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Stop yelling, it's impolite.

Now, let's get back to glass so that Glenna doesn't
shut the list down.

best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:31:04 1999
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
To: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 11:24:21 -0700 (PDT)
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Hi Dani:  Was really intrigued about your approach at the community
college.  I am starting a class this Fall but this will be in Basic
Stained Glass using the copperfoil method.  Tell us something about your
program.  From a business standpoint were you students advanced?
beginners? or what.  Anytime you teach you automatically risk training
your competition.  But...there are a lot of windows out there!

I also do an advanced class at the AFB where we do 'potpourri.'  Students
pick three projects, i,e, panel lamp, boxes, kaleidoscopes, mobiles,
mosaics, etc.  Currently we are doing mosaic birdhouses.  But for the
college I am expecting over 20 students, twice as many as I usually work
with.  But I am looking forward to it and suspect there will be many
challenges.  Do you provide the materials and supplies?  Peggy

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:44:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Christie A. Wood" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:39 -0400
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Message text written by "Christie A. Wood"
>Speaking from a juror's point of view, I would not like it
if I received x number of applications where the applicant
actually had no plans for attending the show.  A lot of
application forms are contracts between the show producer
and the artist.  As in..."by submitting this application form you
are committing yourself to attend the show."  And a lot of the
shows have a heavy penalty for no-shows and people who
cancel.<

Don't forget I know everyone in town! Been part of the
gallery scene forever... nobody says no to us!  My last
class, the students down-loaded entries from the 'net...
they got double points for utilizing the internet.  And,
remember, I'm just asking them to get entries... the
actual jurying process is in-classroom... a lets-pretend
situation.  I'm not asking anything from the galleries
except their actual jury forms.... the students aren't really
submitting work for consideration.  Unless, of course,
someone really gets into it and does so seriously.

Best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 12:48:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:17 -0400
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There is nothing wrong with your post, Mary,
if someone really wanted sane, professional
advice.... something which many of us on bungi
gladly give and receive when they have a =

challenge like this.  It is business-related and
consequently glass-related... I think the
balanced and professional have shown =

themselves very nicely... hope I don't receive
a letter-bomb from some nutcase for that =

comment!  There are some weird folks out there
these days. =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:02:33 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:21:30 -0400
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The artist did not get the email stating there was a problem. The
customer freaked out and posted to the list. Things went you know
where in a handbasket very quickly....  Everyone is reported to have
survived. End of story. If you want to discuss this any further write
me off the list. I'm sure the others won't mind :o)
Kris, the artist in question

>
>
> Mike Savad wrote:
> >
> > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
>
> But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:03:02 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com" <HiimLaura@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:23 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:HiimLaura@aol.com
>add here - sorry!)
Now for the other stuff:
Our local CC has a course close to what you are thinking of "Professional=
 =

Crafting" or something - but not just for stained glass - all crafts - it=
's

only from the business aspect and explains crafter's insurance, keeping =

acurate tax records, etc. If I can find the course description I will pos=
t
it.
<

Thanks, that's what this CC has... it's called an Artisan's program
here and includes S.G., jewelry, fiber, ceramics, etc.  It includes
about everything, though I'm the only one who teaches the
business angle since I'm a former public accountant... can't
resist.  Some of the other teachers find it a bit intimidating.

As far as my comments about community colleges... well, let
me explain further.  I don't think the colleges set a very
high standard.... that isn't to say alot of students don't set
their own goals, they do.  But in Colorado, I was told flat-out
when I mentioned the importance of "raising the bar", that
there IS not bar in the community college environment.
Oh, well.  And it proved itself... 16 folks enrolled in this
class. Ten dropped in the first two weeks.  What does =

that say?  I think what would work better for me is
to give workshops to folks out there who really really
care... would make more money, too. ;-)

best,

Dani
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:18:28 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Claudette Jaramillo" <cpjaram@7cities.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:56:30 -0400
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Message text written by "Claudette Jaramillo"
>Is this a beginner's class?  Or is it a more advanced class?  From a
beginner's perspective, I have two conflicting feelings.
<

It's a stained glass sampler for folks who may
never take another S.G. class... but, remember,
it's all make-believe.  They are not really dealing
with other galleries after they have gotten the
entry form... from that point on, we do role-playing.
WE are the artists and the jury and gallery owners....
but, it's a college class for credit.... so I feel I
should teach it from more than a hobby-perspective.

And no hand-holding in my class!  I'm a real slave-
driver!  This is college, we're all adults.  If you
wanna throw-up, the bathroom is down the hall....


LOL,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:25:14 1999
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From: "Modiano, Victor" <vmodiano@ctronsoft.com>
To: 'bungi' <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Bottle Cutting 
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:31:48 -0400
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A friend of mine wants to cut the top off a glass 5 gallon water bottle.
He asked if I could do it but I haven't a clue how.

Off the top of my head it would have to be sawed off not scored and broken.
But where would you find a saw that could do it?

Any suggestions?

Vic M.
vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:26:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Need some gift market help
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:12 -0400
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Message text written by "Bob Duchesneau"
>Ps: You might make a few too!<

When pigs fly!!  But, garden stakes are a great
idea... and Mary suggested frames which I hadn't
thought of either... and love those prices.

Thanks,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:35:41 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Good News/Poor Steve
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 14:37:08 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.10378.0>
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Message text written by Pamela Burns-Tappan
>
Well I feel sorry for you Steve. It's a tough thing to do, being in a
houseful of
gorgeous women, sharing the same interests, drinking good wine. We're all=

looking
forward to pictures I'll have you know :)
<

I feel sorry for all the women, too... I've heard Steve
is quite the charmer! ;-)

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 13:53:49 1999
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X-Path: prodigy.net!bobdu
From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>, "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Pathway lights
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 13:14:28 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.61428.0>
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>>Wow, Bob... that page was something else! I would love to make something
like that, but would forego the lighting elements... can't begin to figure
THAT out! What a great idea for a class project!
By the way, I've never worked with copper sheets. Is it as easy as it seems
to cut and bend? I've made vase stands with copper tubing. <<

The lighting used is from a set of 12 volt lawn lights- the kind that come 8
or 12+ to a string and run off a transformer. Sometimes called Malibu
lights.

The copper leaves found at: http://www.stonemanorlighting.com are likely
made from about 18 gauge copper sheeting. I recently purchased a piece 20" X
12" for $8.00. It can be cut with a good sharp pair of shop scissors. You
can tin it with solder or not and use hammering or decorative soldering and
patina to achieve professional looking effects. Heavier weight copper sheet
can be a pain to work.

I made a 3-D sheet copper quail weather vane about 16 years ago and it is
just as good as new.

Bob

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:09:45 1999
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X-Path: ceps.nasm.edu!jellison
From: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
To: Kris <kristc@home.com>, Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:26:40 -0400
Message-ID: <37B32DE0.2AA9DCB7@ceps.nasm.edu>
References: <<1999Aug12.102130.0>>
Organization: Smithsonian Institution
Precedence: bulk

Hi Kris,

You're a class act.  I think you should know that
when "ScottieLover" first posted to the list, he/she
had NOT EVEN TRIED to contact you, as you'll see in
her reply to me (below).  I'm the person who first
responded to "ScottieLover" asking whether he/she 
had tried to contact the artist. And he/she admitted
he/she hadn't.

So, he/she changed the story in mid-stream.  I don't
want to speculate why, but it's an easy guess. 

I'm posting this to bungie and to you, because even
though this thread should go bye-bye, no one 
mentioned or called ScottieLover on the change of story 
and I'd feel bad if I didn't point it out.

Best regards,
PJ Jellison

> From: 
>                   PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
>                                                                                                                                                       Wed 11:34 AM
> 
>   Subject: 
>                   Re: Custom orders by mail?
>            To: 
>                   Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>          CC: 
>                   glass@bungi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I understand your point.  I guess I just always try to give folks the
> benefit of the doubt until they prove to me that I shouldn't!  My
> thought on this was, sometimes glue changes its look or soaks
> through as it ages or if it gets hot; what if the artist used glue on 
> the back of the postcard to attach it, then finished the box and 
> shipped it -- and then the glue seeped through in the heat of a UPS 
> truck or such? 
> 
> I have absolutely no experience with making these boxes, and 
> I'd be the last person to want to excuse truly shoddy
> work -- I'm just suggesting that there may be scenarios we haven't
> thought of, in which the smudge wouldn't have been visible to the 
> artist.  In any case, I sure hope you can get it resolved amicably 
> with him/her/them.
> 
> Cheers,
> PJ Jellison
> 
> 
> 
> Scottie Lover wrote:
> > 
> > At 11:13 AM 8/11/99 , PJ Jellison wrote:
> > >Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're
> > >unhappy with the work?
> > 
> > I'll try that -- but the smudge was *SO* noticeable (and ugly) that the
> > artist couldn't help but have noticed it, and couldn't help but realize
> > that anyone would be unhappy with it.
> > 
> > Thank you VERY much for your great help.
> 


> From: 
>                   PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
>                                                                                                                                                       Wed 11:13 AM
> 
>   Subject: 
>                   Re: Custom orders by mail?
>            To: 
>                   Scottie Lover <iluvscotties@mindspring.com>
>          CC: 
>                   glass@bungi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried contacting the artist to let him/her know that you're 
> unhappy with the work?  I would hope that a firm, detailed,
>  but evenly-phrased (i.e. not overly emotional or angry) complaint 
> would get your problem resolved and your box re-done with a new card.  
> 
> I would be upset too if I received a piece of work like
> that, but I think the right thing to do would be to first try to 
> resolve it directly with the artist (and/or the vendor if you 
> bought it through a third party). I'll bet (and hope) he/she/they 
> will be eager to make it right.
> 
> PJ Jellison
> 
> Scottie Lover wrote:
> > 
> > I recently ordered a box with a postcard attached to the center list from
> > someone on the Internet.
> > It cost well over $ 100.00, which would have been fine except for the fact
> > that the artist apparently spilled glue on top of the card, leaving a
> > hideous smudge in the center top of the box.
> > S/he did not mention this to me ahead of time, and left it for me to
> > discover when I received the box.  It is a fairly large and unmistakable
> > smudge which jumps out at you whenever you look at the box, so s/he
> > cuoldn't possibly have overlooked it.  (And, no, it isn't *ON* the glass --
> > I tried that.  It is definitely beneath the center top glass, and I can
> > only assume that it is some sort of glue.  It wasn't there when I sent
> > him/er the postcard.)
> > 
> > Since this was to be a gift, I am extremely upset -- especially because I
> > had not mentioned any rush, the artist knew that it was to be a Christmas
> > present (so how much of a hurry could I have been in July?), and that the
> > postcard was of a local scene (so I could easily have gotten another one if
> > the first got ruined).
> > 
> > Is there any way to avoid such problems in the future?  (I want to order
> > six more boxes for Christmas gifts ... Thank goodness I ordered this one
> > first to see how this particular artist does!)
> > 
> > In other words, would it help to specify "no unsightly unremovable smudges
> > or other defects", or something of that nature?  Or wouldn't that do any good?
> > 
> > Thank you very much for any help you can give me.
> > ----
> > For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> > To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> > Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 


Kris wrote:
> 
> The artist did not get the email stating there was a problem. The
> customer freaked out and posted to the list. Things went you know
> where in a handbasket very quickly....  Everyone is reported to have
> survived. End of story. If you want to discuss this any further write
> me off the list. I'm sure the others won't mind :o)
> Kris, the artist in question
> 
> >
> >
> > Mike Savad wrote:
> > >
> > > let me say i'm not on anyone's side...
> >
> > But Mike what follows seems to be on ONE SIDE!
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:17:26 1999
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X-Path: stratus.com!Charlie_Spitzer
From: "Spitzer, Charlie" <Charlie_Spitzer@stratus.com>
To: "'bungi'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: RE: Bottle Cutting 
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:43:30 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.124330.0>
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i have an easier way.

tie a length of twine around the bottle where you want the cut. soak it in
lighter fluid. light it. after it burns down, run a piece of ice over the
string. it should crack exactly where the twine was.

regards,
charlie
phx, az

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Modiano, Victor [mailto:vmodiano@ctronsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 11:32 AM
> To: 'bungi'
> Subject: Bottle Cutting 
> 
> 
> A friend of mine wants to cut the top off a glass 5 gallon 
> water bottle.
> He asked if I could do it but I haven't a clue how.
> 
> Off the top of my head it would have to be sawed off not 
> scored and broken.
> But where would you find a saw that could do it?
> 
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Vic M.
> vmodiano@ctronsoft.com 
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 14:44:18 1999
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X-Path: home.net!esavad
From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: allastair duncan
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:07:36 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.13736.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.61428.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

did you hear the news? he's going to jail for 25 years for buying stolen
tiffany window from a grave robber then selling it to someone else. if
you don't know him buy name, he's the guy who wrote all of those really
good tiffany books. 

the news said that he bought this one window for $30,000 then later sold
it for $200,000.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:15:48 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: PJ Jellison <jellison@ceps.nasm.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 17:44:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.134457.0>
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Message text written by PJ Jellison
>called ScottieLover<

Would also like to know the person's
*real name so that I can avoid any
contact in *real life.... =


Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:47:35 1999
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X-Path: fuse.net!afields
From: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Address Stones-Garden Stones
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:11:29 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.141129.0>
Precedence: bulk

Has anyone made any of the address stones?  I made one yesterday, and
had several pieces of glass shift.  The whole thing was then worthless.
Add to that the cost of using 33 cups of Diamond Crete, a pretty
expensive flop.  I taped the contact paper to the top of the form (per
instructions), and have a feeling that the bottom of the form was where
the problem lies.  I've made many garden stones and have never had this
problem, but this was the first time I had ever used this particular
form.  Any suggestions or tips would be appreciated.

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 15:59:45 1999
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X-Path: cap.lampman.sk.ca!dmbarker
From: "Dawn Marie Barker" <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
To: "Glasslist" <Glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 16:05:29 -0600
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.10529.0>
References: <<1999Aug11.14270.0>>
Precedence: bulk

Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
kit... from the look on the fellow's face.

Thanks in advance!

Dawn

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:09:47 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: allastair duncan
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:40:25 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.144025.0>
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Message text written by Mike Savad
> he's the guy who wrote all of those really
good tiffany books. =

<

Well, I wouldn't go that far.... they have good
pictures though the accuracy of the writing is
questionable.  Remember, he was the Tiffany
expert at Christie's for years and his books
were meant to prime the pumps.  If you want
to read a couple of good books about Tiffany,
try Robert Koch's "Rebel in Glass" and "The
Last Tiffany" by Michael Burlingham (or is
it Burlingame, I don't recall).  Both give a much
more realistic portrayal of LCT and of his father,
Charles (he of silver-fortune fame).  Wish there
was a really good book about all his marvelous
designers, especially the women.  Did you know
that he did not do much actual designing? Even
less actual work like fabrication.  He was the
artistic director.  =


As for Duncan, well, I've heard that rumours have
abounded for years about his behind-the-scenes
activities.  What I'd like to know is what happened
to the actual grave-robbers?  Was this a government
sting operation with agents role-playing as the
thieves?  Just hopelessly curious.... seems odd that
there aren't some more prosecutions.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:17:44 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Arleen Fields <afields@fuse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Address Stones-Garden Stones
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:04:57 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.15457.0>
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Message text written by Arleen Fields
>the cost of using 33 cups of Diamond Crete,<

There is lots of good information in the archives
about better and less expensive alternatives to
this brilliant marketing scheme.... (oops,did I =

say that!?)  Don't do these stones myself, but
maybe some of the others who do would be =

kind enough to post their formulas again.

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:21:30 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:40:28 -0400
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Message text written by "Kris"
>I don't feel comfortable posting anyone's name on a public list
without their consent, so anyone who wants to know please contact me
privately. Thanks :)
Kris<

I don't want to know that badly!

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 16:49:50 1999
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From: "Kris" <kristc@home.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Malicious Hate Mail
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:09:17 -0400
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I don't feel comfortable posting anyone's name on a public list
without their consent, so anyone who wants to know please contact me
privately. Thanks :)
Kris

Would also like to know the person's
*real name so that I can avoid any
contact in *real life....

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery &Studios
www.igga.org/greer/

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 17:00:44 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 19:24:28 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.152428.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Organization: Mike's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:
> 
> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> Dawn
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


depends how big. any craft store will have the 1'x3' roll (for copper
tooling). and you may be able to buy it in 4'x8' sheets (though you may
have to contact a metal shop teacher on where they get it).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:07:30 1999
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From: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "Dani Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: allastair duncan/writting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 18:18:16 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.111816.0>
Precedence: bulk

Perhaps Duncan will have time write more accurately from a cell?
I have some info on his "grave-robbing".
Anyone know who Clara Driscoll is?????? hint Dragonfly
Perhaps those of you remember the discussion of "Dale" should ask him about
the "family" history! (sorry could not resist)...
burn away..........H
weaver51@teleport.com
Elaine and Howard
best lamps on the "net":
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard

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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:31:00 1999
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X-Path: citynet.net!khupp
From: Kathy <khupp@citynet.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:35:32 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.173532.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Precedence: bulk

I ordered some from American Science and Surplus Company. They do have a
website, but I don't have the URL. The sheets were fairly thin, about 6"x12"
and cost approximately $2-$4 each. Can't remember exactly. Nice quality
stuff.

Hope this helps,  Kathy

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:

> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 19:34:08 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Sheila" <sheila_oh@yahoo.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Pathway lights URL
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:40:49 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.174049.0>
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For those who have asked for the URL, here it is... enjoy.
http://www.stonemanorlighting.com/htmls/products.html

Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:09:57 1999
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Howard" <weaver51@teleport.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: allastair duncan/writting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:30:04 -0400
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Message text written by "Howard"
>Anyone know who Clara Driscoll is?????? hint Dragonfly<

She was the designer of the dragonfly lamp, in fact....
Alice Northrup was my favorite designer on Tiffany's
staff and rumour has it that some of the women =

designers made around ten grand a year.... quite a
sum for women in those days.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:27:08 1999
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From: Dayle <dayle@cyberbeach.net>
To: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:30:12 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.183012.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.10529.0>>
Organization: Celestial Luminosities
Precedence: bulk

Try a plumbing/heating outfit.  I purchased some there once.  They weren't
accustomed to selling it to the general public and didn't quite know what to
charge so just gave some to me to fool around with.

Dawn Marie Barker wrote:

> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 20:44:31 1999
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X-Path: mediaone.net!embee
From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Intrastar" <glass@intrastar.net>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Very nice page
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:04:05 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.1945.0>
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I am sending the URL to a very nice stained glass page. I really like the
simplicity of the designs!
http://www.stic.net/users/kodom/
Mary


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 21:47:46 1999
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X-Path: moswoodmountainltd.com!Pam
From: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Bottle Cutting/faux pas, not for the shy
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 21:04:26 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.14426.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.124330.0>>
Organization: MML/Stained Glass Artists
Precedence: bulk

Spitzer, Charlie wrote:

> i have an easier way.
>
> tie a length of twine around the bottle where you want the cut. soak it in
> lighter fluid. light it. after it burns down, run a piece of ice over the
> string. it should crack exactly where the twine was.



Whoa!! Who in the heck would have thought of that!! Definitely not me,
excellent tip and I thank you very much for it. I was about to purchase a
bottle cutter but to heck with that!

As an added note: (Not meant for the shy or easily shocked)

Today I sat here looking at some of the e-mail on certain subjects I've
received from bungi and have been hmm, the words, ahh, amazed, yes amazed, as
I'm sure some others have been too. The word "faux pas" sticks in my mind. So
today, dear friends of bungi I will give you my faux pas of the day. It goes
as follows:

My water heater went out today. So off to the electric store I go to purchase
a new one. Of course I shop at an upper scale store because I know I will
receive the utmost in service from the employees there.

I find my brand new water heater in aisle C where Bob (the utmost employee)
greets me and we strike up a conversation. First talking about the water
heater then off onto different subjects, you know chit chatting. Bob looks at
me square in the eyes and says "Mrs. Tappan, I think your nipples may be
rusty."

"What? What did you just say to me?" as I repeat the above sentence to Bob.
"Why you *$(#%), What is your problem?"

"Mrs. Tappan," says Bob, "I was talking about your water heater."

"Oh"

I'll end with this. I have a new water heater and a new understanding of water
heater parts :) And would much rather have a faux pas on bungi be humorous,
not at the cost of feelings and lost subscribers. So goes my two cents. And
yes, I know where my delete key is :)

P.S. Bob and I did get a good hearty laugh out of the misunderstanding but boy
was I embarrassed.

Sincerely,

Pam






Ms. Pamela Burns-Tappan
Moswood Mountain Ltd.
http://www.moswoodmountainltd.com


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 23:24:15 1999
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X-Path: island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@island.net
To: Pamela Burns-Tappan <Pam@moswoodmountainltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Bottle Cutting/faux pas, not for the shy
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 22:17:34 -0700
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>Today I sat here looking at some of the e-mail on certain subjects I've
>received from bungi and have been hmm, the words, ahh, amazed, yes amazed, as
>I'm sure some others have been too. The word "faux pas" sticks in my mind. So
>today, dear friends of bungi I will give you my faux pas of the day. It goes
>as follows:
>
>My water heater went out today. So off to the electric store I go to purchase
>a new one. Of course I shop at an upper scale store because I know I will
>receive the utmost in service from the employees there.
>
>I find my brand new water heater in aisle C where Bob (the utmost employee)
>greets me and we strike up a conversation. First talking about the water
>heater then off onto different subjects, you know chit chatting. Bob looks at
>me square in the eyes and says "Mrs. Tappan, I think your nipples may be
>rusty."
>

Pamela...how many times do I have to tell you not to borrow Elisabeth's
viking outfit and leave it out in the rain :)

C.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
http://www.igga.org/synergy
seaspray@island.net


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From owner-glass Thu Aug 12 23:59:10 1999
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X-Path: yahoo.com!christkaiser
From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Question...
Date: Thu, 12 Aug 1999 23:26:46 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <1999Aug12.162646.0>
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Hi all =)

::still blushing from the rusty ahem...):: hehe

Anyway, my question is this. I just visited the website from the last
post, and noticed that most of the pictures listed were recently for
sale on EBay. Not just similar windows, but the exact ones on the site.
It may very well be that the maker of this website either sold or
bought these English Antique windows. Im not bringing this up for that
reason. But if they weren't, how would that work? What is the ethic
there? I saw several windows I really liked on EBay, I even saved
several pictures because i liked the rosette on this or the flow of the
ribbon on that. Would it be because the patterns are antique, that they
are assumed uncopyrighted? I hadnt really thought about it until I saw
that site. What are your thoughts. ps...that English Antique is just
lovely...I plan to fill my neighborhood with it!
chris
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 04:44:52 1999
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From: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
To: "Chris Kaiser" <christkaiser@yahoo.com>, "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Question...
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 07:32:35 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.33235.0>
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It could be that the windows on the website ARE the ones on Ebay. To place a
pic on Ebay, you have to have a website on which to leave the file. So, this
person may be storing his images there.
Other than that, I would assume that a very old window is most likely not
under copyright. But to do an exact copy of ANY other person's work is, as
was pointed out to me on this list, unethical.
Good question you brought up.


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 06:26:14 1999
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From: "Russ Howe" <russ.serotta@netheaven.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01BEE569.E08FCD80
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Glenna,

Please unsubscribe me from the list

Thanks,

Russ

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
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<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Glenna,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Please unsubscribe me from the =
list</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>Russ</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 06:39:23 1999
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X-Path: telebot.com!debbiesgarden
From: DebbieT <debbiesgarden@telebot.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Alastair Duncan
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 09:09:31 -0400
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For those of you interested in the story about the Tiffany Window
thefts, the New York Times has a story at this url:

http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+118+0+wAAA+alastair%7EDuncan

It is easier to cut and paste, or just do a search at www.nyt.com
Debbie T in Baltimore

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 08:00:00 1999
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From: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:24:11 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.62411.0>
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I added my signature this morning to a box that will be in our guild's
member show at Meredith's from 8/22-Oct. 2.  I have to submit it
tomorrow.

I didn't have the speed up on my Dremel and it barely showed. You saw it
coming...I went over it and now it looks like h*ll. plus, it was 6 in
the morning & was up till 1:30 finishing it. So, what else is new...(NY
accent here)

Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
you use? What bit?

KSee (here till 4:30 then on to Nadine's)


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 08:59:55 1999
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From: Mike Savad <esavad@home.net>
To: "ATF Distribution Center-K. See" <atf@socent.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:40:51 -0400
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ATF Distribution Center-K. See wrote:
> 
> I added my signature this morning to a box that will be in our guild's
> member show at Meredith's from 8/22-Oct. 2.  I have to submit it
> tomorrow.
> 
> I didn't have the speed up on my Dremel and it barely showed. You saw it
> coming...I went over it and now it looks like h*ll. plus, it was 6 in
> the morning & was up till 1:30 finishing it. So, what else is new...(NY
> accent here)
> 
> Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
> you use? What bit?
> 
> KSee (here till 4:30 then on to Nadine's)
> 
> ----
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so what does it look like now? can you make the mistake into a fancy
border (to make it look like you meant to do it). make little curly q's,
and so forth. i personally use an electric engraver, it does'nt want to
wonder on it's own (no rotation).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass - Tips Tricks Photos
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
2-1-98 New Pages Added: 20 New Links in 3 Categories, The Brilliance
Award is up, Updated the sample critique, Updated glass indentification
too and A Look at Sky City
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 10:34:08 1999
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From: "Bob Duchesneau" <bobdu@prodigy.net>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>,
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Help!!
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 10:17:12 -0700
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>>Need suggestions, please. Can it be buffed away? Also,  what speeds do
you use? What bit?<<

I would say you are stuck with it. Even if you could buff it away it would
leave a gauged area that would show badly.

What about a bit of overlay here. Shape a piece of foil to a lady bug or
something and solder it up.

Next time practice before you try to engrave. Even cheap engravers do a
decent job with practice. It would also be a good idea to engrave the glass
before installing it.

Bob


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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 11:39:51 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:15:22 -0400
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>are assumed uncopyrighted?<

The designs probably are public domain....

Best,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 12:07:32 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Mary" <embee@mediaone.net>
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Subject: Re: Question...
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 14:15:25 -0400
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Message text written by "Mary"
>But to do an exact copy of ANY other person's work is, as
was pointed out to me on this list, unethical.<

Mmmm, that may be a bit strong.... I would certainly =

consider doing an exact duplicate of, say, a 13th
century window.  But, I would also be sure to mention
that it was exactly that..... would be a marvelous
marketing angle, no?  That I could duplicate the work
of a 13th century glazier.  By the way, copying an
old piece is a really good way to learn about glass
and techniques.  I highly recommend it.  The ethical
consider becomes very serious when one copies
the work of a living artist....

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 12:38:48 1999
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
Subject: What is English Antique?
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 19:45:28 +0100
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.204528.0>
References: <<1999Aug12.162646.0@?>>
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As one who is living in what the people from the USA often call England
(U.K.), (actually the Scottish part)  What is English Antique?
Steve
In message <1999Aug12.162646.0@?>, Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
writes
>
>Hi all =)
>
>::still blushing from the rusty ahem...):: hehe
>
>Anyway, my question is this. I just visited the website from the last
>post, and noticed that most of the pictures listed were recently for
>sale on EBay. Not just similar windows, but the exact ones on the site.
>It may very well be that the maker of this website either sold or
>bought these English Antique windows. Im not bringing this up for that
>reason. But if they weren't, how would that work? What is the ethic
>there? I saw several windows I really liked on EBay, I even saved
>several pictures because i liked the rosette on this or the flow of the
>ribbon on that. Would it be because the patterns are antique, that they
>are assumed uncopyrighted? I hadnt really thought about it until I saw
>that site. What are your thoughts. ps...that English Antique is just
>lovely...I plan to fill my neighborhood with it!
>chris
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

-- 
Steve Richard
Verrier Art Glass Ltd
s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:03:51 1999
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From: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: English Antique
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
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Im sorry about the generalization. I'm sure that "English Antique" is
by no means an official name for the style I was referring to. It was
simply that the windows on EBay all came from England, and were all
pre-1900. If you visit the site mentioned earlier in the thread, there
are some examples of what I meant. But to serve as a description, they
are a kind of simplified victorian look...using mainly mixtures of
textured clear glass, with cathedral glass accents. Many of the motifs
are floral, using that Art Deco style rosette for example. If anyone
knows of the "real" name for this style, I would be interested to know.

Take care all, and here's to hoping our nipples stay rust free forever!
=)
chris

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:07:35 1999
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X-Path: aisl.bc.ca!atwoods
From: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 11:24:34 -0700
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.42434.0>
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For the best price, first look under recycling in the yellow pages.  Most
big cities will have a few that specialize in metal and they often keep
scrap copper, brass, etc. separate.  Give 'em a call and see.  I get almost
all my copper and brass sheet from the local metal recycler.

If you can't find it there, look under both "copper" and "metal".  There are
usually a few listed.

You can also try both plumbers and roofers.  Both sometimes use copper
flashing.  You may even have specialty roofers in you area that do copper
roofs.  Sheets of copper roofing are often the perfect thickness for forming
to a shape yet still being stiff enough to hold the shape.  This is also
usually the least expensive source for "new" copper sheet.

By the way - do you know how to work copper?

Most copper you buy will have lost it's anneal in the extrusion/sheeting
process.  It will be very stiff and impossible to work in this condition.
It may be so brittle that it will crack as you attempt to bend it.  You need
to heat it to restore the anneal so it is soft enough to work.

Heat the copper with a torch or kiln until it just begins to glow red.  If
working with a torch on a large sheet it is perfectly fine to heat one
section then move on to the next while the other cools off.  In copper the
temperature stress of doing this is not high enough to hurt the anneal.
Let the sheet cool normally in air.  (Attempting to quick cool it with water
only removes the anneal again).  Copper and brass retain their anneal at
room temperature (unlike ferrous metals which need to be worked hot).

As you work the copper, it will once again lose it's anneal as the bending
and hammering forces the metallic crystals back into alignment.  Areas of
the sheet will suddenly become stiff and difficult to work again.  You must
reheat the sheet again at this point to re-anneal it.  It is also perfectly
acceptable to just reheat the areas of the sheet you still need to work on
and leave others stiff.  In fact this is a common practice to ensure
finished areas retain their shape while working on other areas.

Once you are done shaping the piece it is common practice to intentionally
remove the anneal so the sheet is once again stiff and retains it's shape.
The simplest method is to simply lightly pound the sheet all over with your
hammer.  This is called peening and is the original purpose for the peening
head on a ball-peen hammer.

You can also intentionally temperature shock the sheet by heating it and
dunking it in cold water.  Special affects and finishes can also be achieved
through chemicals in this water bath and/or dunking in oil rather than
water.  However, I suggest reading a book or taking a class if you want to
get fancy with this.

(Just as a note: In many of my university metal working classes it was a
common practice to use used motor oil for this purpose because it was
essentially free and left a really great finish on the copper.  However,
from what I have read about the cancer causing byproducts that build up in
used motor oil, I would suggest caution.  I am also not sure of the fire
hazard with this.  In university we did some pretty dumb things in the name
of art.)

----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Marie Barker <dmbarker@cap.lampman.sk.ca>
To: Glasslist <Glass@bungi.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 12, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Copper Sheeting


> Where does one go to purchase copper sheeting?  when I asked at my local
> hardware, you'd have thought I asked for faerie dust or a nuclear reactor
> kit... from the look on the fellow's face.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> Dawn
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 13:41:13 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:25:50 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.122550.0>
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We haven't heard much about
Elisabeth since she left for PA!!
Where is she.... how's it going??
Can't we get an update straight
from the horse's mouth so-to-speak?
Has Glass Visions happened already??
How did that go?  How are the
workshops going?  Doesn't anyone
have a computer??

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
www.igga.org/greer/
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:11:33 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "Tim & Adriana Atwood" <atwoods@aisl.bc.ca>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Copper Sheeting
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:46 -0400
Message-ID: <1999Aug13.124046.0>
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Adhesive-backed copper sheets are also
available through our wholesalers (and,thus,
I presume also from retailers).... made by
the same folks who make the copper foil
tape... come in 12" x 12" size.  No prep
needed and they're quite easy to work.

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:28:24 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Everyone <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Another glass assignment
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:48 -0400
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Hi everyone,

As another homework assignment in my
fall class, I thought I would have students
check and report on various web sites.
Rather than check the archives, how about
if everyone sends me their URL and maybe
another favorite or two.... related to glass,
of course.  I know someone on bungi started
a list ages of go, but I'm sure some of that
is out-of-date by now.  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 14:39:39 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: Chris Kaiser <christkaiser@yahoo.com>
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Subject: English Antique
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 16:40:43 -0400
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Message text written by Chris Kaiser
>simplified victorian look...using mainly mixtures of
textured clear glass, with cathedral glass accents. Many of the motifs
are floral,<

Sounds Edwardian although the rosette makes
me think of the Glasgow rose of McIntosh fame...

Best,

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Fri Aug 13 15:48:05 1999
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From: Dani Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:charles@warner-criv.com" <charles@warner-criv.com>
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Subject: RE: Where is E.??
Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 18:20:02 -0400
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Message text written by INTERNET:charles@warner-criv.com
>Has Glass Visions happened already??<

Ha, had you worried, didn't I??  Thanks for the info
and I'm hoping folks like you and Jenna will take a
few moments while E. is with you to keep the rest
of the world posted on day-to-day