From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 01:02:19 1998
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Date: Thu Jan  1 01:00:33 1998
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Hi Glenna,
Please add my name on to the mailing list.  Thanking you in advance.
Sincerely, Lorna

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 04:03:42 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 07:09:32 +0000
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> Well, it's a good book and certainly the
> most recent thing I've read about the
> subject. 

Not to mention it's the only book on the subject. <s>

> a little promoting!  Good grief!  How often
> do the newcomers to this site hear about
> the International Guild of Glass Artists,
> Mr. Director?  You are almost as bad as
> my husband who is Mr. Understatement =
> personified!  For example, when I signed
> us up as members of I.G.G.A., I was thrilled
> to learn that I would get membership logos
> to put on my shop door as part of the cost.

Aw, it *is listed in the benefits of membership on the Guild's site 
... and I think it's also mentioned in the printed materials.

> you ask?  Because I.G.G.A.'s logos are
> about the size of a quarter, clear with
> thin black print.... VERY subtle... 

Too bad ... I didn't realize anyone felt that way about the size of 
the membership sticker ... I just had them re-done, too, with the 
1998-1999 dates and certainly could have had them made larger. Next 
year? Perhaps you should remind me in about 12 months time.

Have a happy!  We stayed in last night; it's bitterly cold here -- 1 
degree when we went to bed at 10 (yes, I know, real party poopers we 
are). We were going to watch some of the celebrations on TV but the 
cable went out at 10 so that was it on the festivities. A friend of 
ours had given us a bottle of Moet (very nice) and a bunch of goodies 
(anchovies, caviar, German cookies), so we had some of those and 
called it our own little celebration.  Made resolutions ... one 
resolution, anyway: join a health club here locally to swim away some 
of my keyboarding tension. <s>  We'll see if I can keep that.

Say hi and happy new year to Michael, The Understated.

Albert

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 04:21:58 1998
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Subject: New Year's Wishes
Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 07:21:23 -0500
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My wish for New Year's is that I begin to believe that stained glass
design is infinitely more beautiful when created with big pieces with
straight edges than small pieces with lots of curves. ;-)

Hilary
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 10:28:53 1998
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Subject: Re: plant buddies
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 13:22:06 EST
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Len 
are you the one that attaached a file for plant buddies and if so do I need a
special unzip to retrieve it?  it asks for disk something or other to unzip
deb
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 10:31:34 1998
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I second that Hilary!!:) Judy
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 16:26:23 1998
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From: "Myrddn" <exotic@mail.lobo.net>
To: wmunro@mars.ark.com (Wayne Munro),
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Subject: Re: Sand Blasting 'Parts'
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:24:00 +0000
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On 30 Dec 97, Wayne Munro wrote:

> Happy New Year Gang!
> ...Can anyone out there tell me what size sandblast nozzles I should be
> using for etching and sand carving? Also, where I can get them? 
> ...What kind of sand (Grit?) would you recommend?
> 
> I am trying to teach myself this technique and I could sure use some
> pointers!! Thanks...
>    Wayne


I found a catalog site that sells sand blasting equipment, that was most 
informative, even without contacting them

http://www.etchworld.com/

They might be of help
Myrddn
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  1 18:02:11 1998
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Subject: Re: Sand Blasting 'Parts'
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 01:58:47 GMT
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Myrddn, thanks for the information but I think you ment to send it to
Wayne Munro.

Steve

On Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:24:00 +0000, you wrote:

>On 30 Dec 97, Wayne Munro wrote:
>
>> Happy New Year Gang!
>> ...Can anyone out there tell me what size sandblast nozzles I should =
be
>> using for etching and sand carving? Also, where I can get them?=20
>> ...What kind of sand (Grit?) would you recommend?
>>=20
>> I am trying to teach myself this technique and I could sure use some
>> pointers!! Thanks...
>>    Wayne
>
>
>I found a catalog site that sells sand blasting equipment, that was most=
=20
>informative, even without contacting them
>
>http://www.etchworld.com/
>
>They might be of help
>Myrddn
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 14:21:11 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: plant buddies
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:48:02 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan2.14482.0>
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That sounds great.. I could  snali mail him..Thanks again.
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Melissa Thaxton [SMTP:mthaxton@softcom.net]
Sent:	Thursday, January 01, 1998 3:34 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: plant buddies

I used to work for a man Named Phil, he makes kilns.  I could give you info
if you would like.  His buiseness Rainbow Glass and Beads is in Sacramento
Ca.
Hope this helps.
Melissa

-----Original Message-----
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: 'glass@bungi.com' <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: plant buddies




Talking about reviving.. George bought me a nice, very nice kiln for
Christmas..  I know that kiln work has been replaced by mosaics as the
trend,  but all ideas would be apprecieited.. Would like to start with the
folded candle shelter, but would  like to to do a lot more..   Was there a
pair of girls in Floriada, maybe "Fantasia?" that has a kiln line.... thanks
you.
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From: len alcamo [SMTP:alcamoz@mwt.net]
Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 11:33 AM
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: plant buddies

This might be of interest to folks who make suncatchers

I have been rummaging around in my old stuff and found  a few of my *plant
buddy* prototypes. These were essentially small 6-8 piece copper foiled
ditties.... cute  multi-color insect forms in side view with the wings up
and a segmented body............ they were soldered to a lenght of bronze
brazing rod which is nice and stiff and easy to solder. The marketing idea
was to  stick one, or better yet several  :-)  down into the pot of a nice
plant and have it positioned in an attractive light catching manner.

Sold a bunch of these at one point and I was wondering if they ever became a
standard  hobbiest item. If not they might be worth reviving....can never
have too many variations in the craft and novelties market.

Len


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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 14:21:12 1998
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Subject: RE: Taurus II- 2, Need some help Please
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:58:43 -0200
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Thanks,
I have the Diamond Max, and never thought of that one.. Do you just attach a hose to the hose that is projuding..
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	leestat7 [SMTP:leestat7@home.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:00 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Taurus II- 2, Need some help Please

Hi Brenda,

Not very hard to take care of, change the water every 2-3 days depending
on your use, if it will not be used in several days, drain it, clean
well, and check the grommets for wear.  When I start to use mine, I
either pour ice (or a block of 'Blue Ice') in the left hand side.  It is
supposed to prolong the life of the blade, and does cut better.  Don't
over fill, but make sure the blade is wet when cutting.  The black
rubber drive belt carries the water to the blade.  When draining and
cleaning do not immerse the motor, and dry well when done.  Be careful
not to use a 'rag' or other cloth when the blade is running.  If you
need to wipe the work surface use a sponge. In Florida's wet climate,
put one or two drops of bleach in the water (not more) to keep pond scum
from growing.  I'm in Sarasota, Florida.  

One other tip, for Diamond Max grinder owners, attach a 4-6 foot long
clear plastic tube to the discharge line of the grinder.  Use a ring
clamp to secure it tight, and run this new 'drain' line to a 2-3 gallon
bucket on the floor under your bench.  Voila-no more overflowing drain
water cups.  And put a few drops of bleach in the bucket with the water
to keep the pond scum down, too.

Enjoy, both gismo's make my life a lot easier, and I cut soft metals
with the ring saw too.  If you cut precious metals, you can precipitate
out the cuttings to be sent back to the refiners.  I do jewelry too. 
The Diamond Max/Bevel Max are great for limited stone polishing, when
I've gotten a nick in a gemstone.  

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations


Ken Neil wrote:
> 
> Santa bought me for Christmas a Taurus II,  and I just love it!!   The only
> thing I'm a little disappointed with is it didn't come with any
> instructions on when and how to clean the saw???   How often do you change
> the water?  I imagine you have to be real careful not to get the motor
> wet??  I know a lot of you guys have the same saw.....Please let me know
> what you think is best.   Of course any other comments or suggestions on
> the saw are always welcome and greatly appreciated.  Thanks Brenda
> 
> ********************************************************************
>                 Been There........
>                                 Done That!
> Ken Neil
> Jupiter, Florida
> ********************************************************************
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 14:21:46 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 16:56:02 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan2.14562.0>
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Good Luck with the Paragon.. It is a nice kiln..   Easy to use.. If you =
need help, leave me know.. Pretty confident with the Paragon.. There are =
or were some decent pattern books and slumping molds, I think from =
"Sunshine"', Made some 3-D roses on a trellis a few years ago... I do =
have the  books and can you the titles if you like.. the molds I  bought =
about 2 - 3 years ago..=20
Best fusing to you.
Gloria

Or as Gil Reynolds says, "Keep a warm kiln"


-----Original Message-----
From:	leestat7 [SMTP:leestat7@home.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, December 31, 1997 10:11 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Gatewayed mail message

Me too PJ, still haven't gotten all the Christmas orders finished, nose
to the grinder stone. =20

Happy New year to everyone, may 1998 be more profitable for everyone,
and not 'clump' up the orders so much. =20

Santa brought me a scanner and a Paragon insta-heat little kiln, so will
be busy glassing and finally getting some pictures together for my web
site.  Now all I have to do is get the web site set up.  Joy oh Joy, how
come there is not 3 of me??

Tonight is New Years eve, the one night of the year I guaranty I will
stay home, and not fight the traffic.

And last for PJ, one cup of coffee a day may keep the headaches away.  I
drink tea, and lots of it.  Coffee gives me an upset stomach, but a cup
when I have a headache works.

Best Wishes for 1998 to all,

Lee Boe
Rain-Boe's Creations

pj friend wrote:
>=20
> dani wrote,
>=20
> >"Going too fast, too much on the
> >plate"  - Boy, can we relate, Albert!!
> >I truly cannot remember the last
> >time I was bored.... and think what
> >a blessing that is, really.
>=20
> Bored??/ I wanna be bored!! At least for five minutes so I can =
remember what
> it felt like.  I would also like one day to get more than 6 hours =
sleep and
> be able to have one conversation without call waiting going off.
>=20
> I would also like to have a pot of coffee in front of me.  (can you =
tell I
> gave it up?)
>=20
> Anyone else have some new years wishes???  Besides the world peace one =
and
> no hunger and good health.
>=20
> Lets share and make them funny.
>=20
> I will go first this time.
>=20
> For New Years I wish that 1998 would not go as fast as 1997.  That =
summer
> would be a true four or five months instead of the blink of an eye.
> I wish that Paris would move closer to New Jersey or that if thats =
impossible
> the ride on the Concorde didn't make me so sick.
> I also wish that our apprentice could go to the men who cloned Dolly =
and
> get herself cloned.
>=20
> And last but certainly not least.  For 1998 I wish that coffee wasn't =
as bad
> for me as
> without it makes me feel.
>=20
> my best and Happy and Healthly New Year to all of you.
>=20
> pj (who thinks the new years eve party will be in her dreams.)
>=20
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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AgUQJUGKFHmxbgWhJUH+ZB3wTNK08xyhWREAkBeA/8LJnKO6mL+yUpEJcAIwGXL/BaCcYrdhUFUH
gIwRPuDFEvsbkBdARAbwYPGfuWYCH5H9D7BsdMHPs7iPcyd74hmA/wAgC3Fg8Vdyl+MaAbmSVIP/
unp05ZDxTNKRAiUwhbZjE/8fwYPlvoGihZsxtPJ6c3UR/mzST2NRQdC8oiJRUoTcs/+yo2DxbBaA
pWoiMBiGGISx/ijPYiOjr1StqFOhIVEAIH9jYUxSVNGoAWLSeAAcUG3ffoCrPzkIuXS9wGIE9KIy
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vQFAAAgwYIAhN68XvQELAAGACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAADhQAAAAAAAAMAAoAIIAYAAAAA
AMAAAAAAAABGAAAAABCFAAAAAAAAAwADgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAUoUAALcNAAAeAASA
CCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAABUhQAAAQAAAAQAAAA4LjAAAwAFgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYA
AAAAAYUAAAAAAAALAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAOhQAAAAAAAAMAB4AIIAYAAAAAAMAA
AAAAAABGAAAAABGFAAAAAAAAAwAIgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAGIUAAAAAAAAeAAmACCAG
AAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAA2hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgAKgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAA
N4UAAAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAB4AC4AIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADiFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAe
AD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAAK0=

------ =_NextPart_000_01BD17A2.D66AB4A0--

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 21:43:13 1998
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X-Path: 357.com!dward
From: David Ward <dward@357.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Taurus II- 2, Need some help Please
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 23:43:07 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan2.17437.0>
References: <<v03110703b0d068af5652@[208.14.24.65]>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: DLWA
Precedence: bulk

Have had a Taurus for a couple of months. When you cut for a few hours, the
sentiment really goes all over the bottom. I recommend you clean it after each
major using. Also, the idea of using ice cubes really works. If you want more
info, contact me at dward@357.com.

Good luck,


David

Ken Neil wrote:

> Santa bought me for Christmas a Taurus II,  and I just love it!!   The only
> thing I'm a little disappointed with is it didn't come with any
> instructions on when and how to clean the saw???   How often do you change
> the water?  I imagine you have to be real careful not to get the motor
> wet??  I know a lot of you guys have the same saw.....Please let me know
> what you think is best.   Of course any other comments or suggestions on
> the saw are always welcome and greatly appreciated.  Thanks Brenda
>
> ********************************************************************
>                 Been There........
>                                 Done That!
> Ken Neil
> Jupiter, Florida
> ********************************************************************
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 22:14:54 1998
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X-Path: vdot.net!shyguy
From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Is this thing on?
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 00:54:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan2.195459.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Cox's Mower Service
Precedence: bulk

Hello? Anybody out there? I haven't seen anything in a while from bungi.
If I don't see this by tomorrow, I'll apply again.

--
'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 22:32:53 1998
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "jean" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Is this thing on?
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:32:41 -0800
Message-ID: <199801030628.WAA26659@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

looks like we're not the  only one who is wondering what's going on.

----------
> From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Is this thing on?
> Date: Friday, January 02, 1998 9:54 PM
> 
> Hello? Anybody out there? I haven't seen anything in a while from bungi.
> If I don't see this by tomorrow, I'll apply again.
> 
> --
> 'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
> altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
> most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
> others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
> 
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 22:35:00 1998
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X-Path: sagelink.net!pkelly
From: patkelly <pkelly@sagelink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Is this thing on?
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 00:30:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan2.163033.0>
References: <<1998Jan2.195459.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Yes Carl it is on.

Patrick
Roses and Rainbows

Carl Childers wrote:

> Hello? Anybody out there? I haven't seen anything in a while from bungi.
> If I don't see this by tomorrow, I'll apply again.
>
> --
> 'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
> altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
> most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
> others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Fri Jan  2 23:04:09 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: no body home????
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 23:07:27 -0800
Message-ID: <199801030703.XAA25395@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Seems if we are not debating the great coat hanger fiasco, we have nothing
to say!

Sad...............ask me a lamp question.

I will have answers to a few pending requests shortly..........actually
been working.

enjoy, H
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 05:41:26 1998
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From: Sandra Willis <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Light box design
Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 08:34:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan3.33455.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi and Happy New Year,

We are in the process of designing my stained glass room (we have enough
room in the house to provide two hobbie rooms, one for my husband and
one for me) and we are trying to decide how to use the Morton large
cutting surface and turn it into a light box that lies flush with the
rest of the counter.  Got a couple of questions that maybe you folks
have already been through.

Questions:

1. How should the bracing be to support the surface and yet not obscure
the light from below?  I don't want the thing to buckle on me while I'm
cutting.

2.  How many lamps underneath should be used?  What size?

If anyone has any suggestions I'd be really appreciative.

Thanks,

Sandy
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 06:22:51 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Light box design
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:21:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan3.42158.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by INTERNET:glass@bungi.com
>Questions:

1. How should the bracing be to support the surface and yet not obscure
the light from below?  I don't want the thing to buckle on me while I'm
cutting.

2.  How many lamps underneath should be used?  What size?<

My dad made me a light table using 3 side-by-side Morton mini
surfaces with a large light box underneath.  He used clear Plexiglass
cross braces to support the Morton surfaces.  He placed them about
one every 6 inches, and they sit down into the light box so that when
the Morton surfaces are laying atop them, they create a surface area
flush with the wooden frame.  Under them is a couple of shop florescent
lamps (regular type).  I lined the box with aluminum foil to help reflect=

the
light up out of the box, but I probably should have just painted it white=
=2E
This setup lets you use both surfaces of the Morton system - the grid
for cutting and the flat surface for glass selection and pattern work.
I actually have my light table in a free-standing box atop some table
legs (purchased from Home Depot), which are atop some wheels.
This way I can wheel the light table out into the middle of the room,
'set' the table by putting its wheels in plastic 'stops' (I don't know =

their technical name) so that it doesn't roll around.  I can now cut very=

large sheets of glass, walk around the table to cut from any angle,
have customers on one side while I'm on the other, etc.  I also marked
a ruler on two sides of the box so that I have a handy guide right there.=


You can dump the glass shards into the light box as needed, and then
sweep it up with a brush for safe disposal.  This sure keeps the floor
area clean!

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 06:23:26 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Lamp question for Howard
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:21:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan3.42153.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

OK Howard - you asked people for lamp questions.  Here's one of mine.
I've got a 20" Worden system lampshade, pattern #P20-4 Rose which has
a crown.  I've been working on this lampshade off and on for over a year.=

I've got the sections finished and soldered inside & final outside bead f=
or
the main part of the lampshade.  But how do I do the crown?  It consists =
of
a ring, which I have elected to make out of small glass squares, and then=

the 'crown' section coming off the ring at a flare.

Questions:
1. How do I attach the hanging hardware to the lampshade body?
2. How do I attach the ring of glass in the crown to the lampshade body?
3. How do I attach the crown?

Any and all answers greatly appreciated, as I have gotten pretty disguste=
d
with this lamp and cannot get my motivation up to finish it.

Thanks.
Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 07:37:51 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Lamp Question
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 98 10:38:56 -0500
Message-ID: <199801031537.KAA10610@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Howard,

When you select glass for your lamps, how do you do it?

Do you view the glass through incandescent light, and do you have some 
kind of system rigged up to do that?

What kind of glass is most effective for the kind of lamps you do?

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 09:07:26 1998
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Reinforcing
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 09:06:43 PST
Message-ID: <m0xoX24-00005wC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi everyone,

Hope you all had a wonderful holiday season.

I have a question regarding reinforcing.  I'm making a square
project with some bevels in it.  The final piece will be about 23" x 23"
and it is going to be mounted on the inside of a very frequently
used door. There is an existing window in the door and this piece
will sit on the inside, behind the existing glass.  How should I
reinforce this?  I was planning on running some strongline through
the project.  What direction do I weave it through the project?
Will this be sufficient reinforcing?  I am making this for a friend
and don't want it to fall apart.  Also, when mounting it should they
leave some air space?  The climate is cold in the winter and I am
not sure whether or not condensation will build up between the two
glass pieces.

Thanks in advance for any help.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 14:10:16 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!DMR74
From: DMR74 <DMR74@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: no body home????
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 17:02:10 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan3.22210.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 98-01-03 03:02:00 EST, you write:

> Seems if we are not debating the great coat hanger fiasco, we have nothing
>  to say!
>  
Dont't worry Howard I'm not gonna say another word about it,  but I think I
have it figured out..... it kinda tells us what type of people we all are,
Christmas time we were all very busy and stressed out, BUT everyone kept up
with the mail and there was PLENTY.  Now take New Years and not much mail....
Hmmm me thinks everyone is recuperating.  Not me I'm still in the stressed
factor and waiting for January to be over and inventory done.
deb   :)
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 15:58:00 1998
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X-Path: softcom.net!mthaxton
From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Light box design
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 15:56:44 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan3.75644.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Christi,

        I used to go visit my Mom in Reno we always went gambling.  During
one of my visits I won $1,000.00.  When I returned home I bought a few
hundred dollars worth of Fisher flashed and Fisher antique, 25 pounds of
solder, a few odds and ends tools, German pliers and a 37" x 53" light
table.

The light table has 3 switches and one electrical socket.  It is made out of
oak plywood.  The top is 1/2" plate glass and sits in a routered out lip, a
piece of white plastic is against the glass to defuse the light.  It has
3-48" two light fluorescent bulb units.  The bottom is enclosed, the legs
are made out of lathed stairway rungs and it has a shelf under the bottom of
the table.  I paid $375.00 quite a bargain.  Had it since 1981.  Hope this
helps
Melissa  8^)


-----Original Message-----
From: Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: INTERNET:glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 6:43 AM
Subject: Light box design


>Message text written by INTERNET:glass@bungi.com
>>Questions:
>
>1. How should the bracing be to support the surface and yet not obscure
>the light from below?  I don't want the thing to buckle on me while I'm
>cutting.
>
>2.  How many lamps underneath should be used?  What size?<
>
>My dad made me a light table using 3 side-by-side Morton mini
>surfaces with a large light box underneath.  He used clear Plexiglass
>cross braces to support the Morton surfaces.  He placed them about
>one every 6 inches, and they sit down into the light box so that when
>the Morton surfaces are laying atop them, they create a surface area
>flush with the wooden frame.  Under them is a couple of shop florescent
>lamps (regular type).  I lined the box with aluminum foil to help reflect=
>
>the
>light up out of the box, but I probably should have just painted it white=
>=2E
>This setup lets you use both surfaces of the Morton system - the grid
>for cutting and the flat surface for glass selection and pattern work.
>I actually have my light table in a free-standing box atop some table
>legs (purchased from Home Depot), which are atop some wheels.
>This way I can wheel the light table out into the middle of the room,
>'set' the table by putting its wheels in plastic 'stops' (I don't know =
>
>their technical name) so that it doesn't roll around.  I can now cut very=
>
>large sheets of glass, walk around the table to cut from any angle,
>have customers on one side while I'm on the other, etc.  I also marked
>
>
>a ruler on two sides of the box so that I have a handy guide right there.=
>
>
>You can dump the glass shards into the light box as needed, and then
>sweep it up with a brush for safe disposal.  This sure keeps the floor
>area clean!
>
>Christie A. Wood
>Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 16:15:58 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: no body home????
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 98 19:17:02 -0500
Message-ID: <199801040015.TAA29092@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Deb wrote:

> it kinda tells us what type of people we all are,
>Christmas time we were all very busy and stressed out, BUT everyone kept up
>with the mail and there was PLENTY.  Now take New Years and not much mail....
>Hmmm me thinks everyone is recuperating.

Good point Deb, I was wondering about this myself. Maybe we're mostly 
Type A personalities that do our best work under pressure. You know the 
old story, "a busy person gets more things done." Any psychologists in 
the audience? (s)
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 20:44:34 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Re: Lamp question for Howard
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:40:17 -0800
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Hi, will spend some time trying to translate what I do to a keyboard
technique....keep the faith!
Will get back to you soon..........H
weaver51@teleport.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 20:44:38 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: light box
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:29:02 -0800
Message-ID: <199801040441.UAA00342@smtp3.teleport.com>
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My .02 on a light box.
I do mostly lamps, and almost only tiff style ones so multi-colored
handmade opals are about all I stock.

I have 14 60watt   CLEAR bulbs (because I do lamps with the intent to light
them when finished with incandescent bulbs, a fluorescent will not render
the colors correctly) set up on 3 dimmers. One strip of 6 bulbs in a
straight line is  also on a dimmer
makes no sense to have/build a box bigger that the largest sheet of
HAND-MADE glass you intend to view.
Mine is about 26"x44"

I have the plate glass (top of box) in 3 sections, with a gap between each
to help let out the heat. Also I have installed a fan to move the heat from
the bulbs.
When I build and set up a shade on the box, I use sheets of plate over the
existing glass so I can remove them if I need to and get the box back.

Set the box high enough to have storage under it, but not so high as to
have to stand on a ladder to cut glass.

I do my final cutting on a small light table 24x16 with 6 bulbs (clear)
with the corners cut out to accept glass chips. NOTE: this is also a box
with 3/8" plate glass for a cutting surface....no soft mat for me!

IMHO, if you use machine made or cathedral glass, a light table is not a
first priority.







weaver51@teleport.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 20:45:09 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: glass selection
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:37:23 -0800
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Hi Suzanne (again)...my glass selection is guided by which lamp I want to
make.

A dfly is primarily background, so I look for a glass that has a good
transition of colors.
A wispy type glass for the wings as it will have filigree over it.

If I am doing a floral, usually a glass that has a lot of dark and light
spots of the same color, so to make the flowers denser on the inside and
light on the tips. Sometimes even the same glass with a ripple and some of
the same color without a ripple, so to show undersides of flowers or curls
of petals (dimension)

If I intend to do a grid type lamp, a soft transition or a lessening of
density works. That is the darker/denser glass to the top and a fade toward
the bottom.
A 1,000 or so lamps does give one a bit of an insight as to what to look
for when buying sheets of glass.

enjoy, H


weaver51@teleport.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 20:45:13 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
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Subject: Re: Lamp Question
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 20:30:08 -0800
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Hi Suzanne..........see other post for answers to your questions.
weaver51@teleport.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 21:30:15 1998
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From: "The Banker's House" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Reinforcing
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:31:28 -0600
Message-ID: <199801040535.XAA04758@ns.ictc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenna,
	This has worked for me.... I have a swinging door on the basement, so the
dog (duchess) can let herself in, but not out.  It had a clear piece of
glass in it at one time, but was missing when I got the house.  I wanted
stained glass.... well it is not really practical; but, this is what I did.
 I puttied a piece of glass in place, set the leaded glass piece in a very
small amount of putty (so it wouldn't show) and then sandwiched it tightly
with another piece of clear glass, and sealed with putty.  This way it
cannot rattle.  It has worked well, although some may suggest shatterproof
glass (it is a door).  It is inside, so I don't worry about condensation...

Look forward to hearing other replies, advice, experiences....

Dale

----------
> From: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Reinforcing
> Date: Saturday, January 03, 1998 11:06 AM
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Hope you all had a wonderful holiday season.
> 
> I have a question regarding reinforcing.  I'm making a square
> project with some bevels in it.  The final piece will be about 23" x 23"
> and it is going to be mounted on the inside of a very frequently
> used door. There is an existing window in the door and this piece
> will sit on the inside, behind the existing glass.  How should I
> reinforce this?  I was planning on running some strongline through
> the project.  What direction do I weave it through the project?
> Will this be sufficient reinforcing?  I am making this for a friend
> and don't want it to fall apart.  Also, when mounting it should they
> leave some air space?  The climate is cold in the winter and I am
> not sure whether or not condensation will build up between the two
> glass pieces.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 22:01:12 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Light box design
Date: Sun,  4 Jan 1998 00:59:12, -0500
Message-ID: <199801040559.AAA20994@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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one for me) and we are trying to decide how to use the Morton large
cutting surface and turn it into a light box that lies flush with 
the
rest of the counter.  Got a couple of questions that maybe you folks
have already been through.

Questions:

1. How should the bracing be to support the surface and yet not 
obscure
the light from below?  I don't want the thing to buckle on me while 
I'm
cutting.

2.  How many lamps underneath should be used?  What size?

If anyone has any suggestions I'd be really appreciative.

Thanks,

Sandy

1. You could simply install a piece of clear 1/4" glass under the 
Morton cutting surface. This will provide all the support necessary.

2. I suggest you make it easy on yourself and install just two 20 
watt  soft white florcesents. You can add more later if desired. Most 
tables are overly bright IMO. If you want to see the true color just 
hold the glass up to the natural light. Remember: an installed window 
*sees* all sorts of light as the seasons and days wear on so it is 
impossible to judge exactly how a color will appear to the viewer.

If the Morton surface is ever so slightly raised above the surface of 
the table it will make moving larger sheets of glass around easier.

Unless you are sure of the most comfortable table height for you it 
might be best to build it on the low end. You can always shim up the 
legs. If working with a fixed table height and it is to high you can 
build a booster: a step about one foot deep, 2-4 inches high and as 
long as the table. Correct table height is necessary if I am to work 
at it for hours at a time.

I have two tables with 28" X 74" X 1/4" tempered glass, sand blasted 
for opacity on the reverse side lighted by two 40 watt florcesents in 
each table. One end of tables is not well lighted. Table size is a 
function of the size glass that happened to be available to me. 
Previously used four 40 watts but they proved to be to bright.

I predict you will love your light table, Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working 
with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Sat Jan  3 22:30:45 1998
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From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Reinforcing
Date: Sun,  4 Jan 1998 01:28:08, -0500
Message-ID: <199801040628.BAA18644@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenna writes:
I have a question regarding reinforcing.  I'm making a square
project with some bevels in it.  The final piece will be about 23" x 
23"
and it is going to be mounted on the inside of a very frequently
used door. There is an existing window in the door and this piece
will sit on the inside, behind the existing glass.  How should I
reinforce this?  I was planning on running some strongline through
the project.  What direction do I weave it through the project?
Will this be sufficient reinforcing?  I am making this for a friend
and don't want it to fall apart.  Also, when mounting it should they
leave some air space?  The climate is cold in the winter and I am
not sure whether or not condensation will build up between the two
glass pieces.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Glenna Rand

This is a foiled window and the strength will pretty much be a 
function of the solder seams. With a reasonable amount of heart to 
the seam, say several well spaced with about 1/16" heart, the window 
should be fairly stiff. Strongline need only be used in a few  spaced 
long runs to provide added stiffness. I don't think direction makes 
much difference. There is not much point in using it in detailed work.
 So use it in the stem of a rose and not in the pettles.

I think it is important to install the SG piece on the inside right 
up against the outside protective glass. This will allow the 
protective glass to keep the SG from slamming into the protective 
glass when the door slams. With standoff the SG has a chance to move 
forward when the door slams. I have seen more than a few SG door 
pieces that are bowed to the outside due to doors slamming shut by 
wind, accident or malice.

Condensation is not usually a problem but the two pieces of glass 
could be sealed together with silicone if desired. Given a chance I 
would not seal the window until it proved necessary.

Good luck, Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working 
with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 07:12:50 1998
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From: "Jackie" <jandj@tvutel.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: glass selection
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 14:16:27 -0600
Message-ID: <199801041516.JAA09323@perham.eot.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



To Howard

Hello my question might seem strange to you.  Over the holidays I came up
with a very unusual design for dragonfly's using the filagree wings that
you have mentioned.  I was wondering, is there an easy way or a more
correct way of attaching the fillagree wings to the glass without having a
complete mess and cracking the glass?  And where might a person get the
fillagree in different sizes.  I think that I will attempt to make my own
also.  Any tips will be appreciated.

Jackie
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 10:28:49 1998
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From: "Dianne G. Maddison" <artglass@flash.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: tables
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 11:26:21 -0800
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Organization: The Ivory Express
Precedence: bulk

My main work table is 4ft. by 8ft.,35 and a half inches high.  This
highth seems to be recommended for ease of cutting and for less stress
on the back.  I have a shelf underneath for storage which I also use to
prop a foot on to relieve tired legs.  I have used the same table for 17
years and it seems to work very well for me and for my students.  My
light table is 3ft. by 5ft. with 1/2 in. plate glass.  I have two shop
lights underneath.  I have left the glass clear because I usually have a
pattern laying on the table and I need the stronger light.  

Wonderful to have you back Howard.  Happy New Year to all.
Dianne Maddison
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 10:56:14 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!LElsbury
From: LElsbury <LElsbury@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: bevel overlay
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:53:49 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.185349.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I would appreciate any input on what I am thinking about doing (yes -
negative, as well as, positive <smile>).  I have a 4 x 6 inch oval bevel with
a verse about "friend and father".  It also has a sail boat in the background
and a lighthouse in the forefront.  After trying various glass, colors, bevels
surrounding the oval bevel I happen to place the bevel over GNA 4323 (medium
blue) and really liked the looks of that.  So my questions begin.  Is it
plausible to cut the glass even with the bevel and foil them together?  I then
was thinking about the background from that point.  Some kind of contrasting
color or clear?  Bevels?  I am not wanting to fit it "into" the window of
Dad's study in Florida, but to dangle in front of it ("suncatcher" rather than
panel).  Would I put the background "flush" with the front or back of the
extra width, or try to center it around the bevel.  All and everyone's input
will be appreciated.  

Lu Ann (LElsbury@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 11:53:47 1998
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From: Garry  & Linda   McKenna <mnvve3@kwic.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Light box design
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 14:50:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980104195024.00676638@mail.kwic.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

 Hi Sandy:
You are getting lots of advice and it seems to me to depend on how elaborate
you want to be.   My husband constructed a fairly simple box out of 1 x 6's
- the inside dimension is the same as the large Morton cutting surface.
This in turn sits on a similar size piece of plate glass, and all this sits
on a ledge which leaves the Moron surface flush with the top of the box.
Underneath are installed 3 GE Bright Sticks (the cheap way to go). We also
installed handles at either end of the box so that it can be moved if
necessary.   I sit this whole thing on a regular height table, and since I
am fairly short this makes the cutting surface a perfect height for me.
Quite simple but effective.  Hope that this is of some help to you. Happy
New Year!

Linda.

   At 08:34 AM 3/1/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi and Happy New Year,
>
>We are in the process of designing my stained glass room (we have enough
>room in the house to provide two hobbie rooms, one for my husband and
>one for me) and we are trying to decide how to use the Morton large
>cutting surface and turn it into a light box that lies flush with the
>rest of the counter.  Got a couple of questions that maybe you folks
>have already been through.
>
>Questions:
>
>1. How should the bracing be to support the surface and yet not obscure
>the light from below?  I don't want the thing to buckle on me while I'm
>cutting.
>
>2.  How many lamps underneath should be used?  What size?
>
>If anyone has any suggestions I'd be really appreciative.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Sandy
>----
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>
>
GARRY & LINDA McKENNA
  TILLSONBURG ONT CANADA
   519 842-9909
  
 LINDA'S HOBBY: STAINED GLASS
 GARRY'S HOBBY:  AMATURE RADIO CALL VE3MNV

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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
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Subject: Re: bevel overlay
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 12:06:12 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.4612.0>
References: <<1998Jan4.185349.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Clear hammered makes a beautiful background with blue. Then I would
border that (in what ever shape you choose) with the same blue you are
putting behind the bevel.
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 12:20:40 1998
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Gatewayed mail message
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 15:16:12 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980104151612.0068d3d8@mail.fwi.com>
References: <<1.5.4.16.19971230182805.1bef8364@sol.racsa.co.cr>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Please take me OFF YOUR EMAIL LISTING, IT IS CLOGGING UP MY EMAIL... THANK
YOU!!!
At 06:24 PM 12/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Dale,
>        Thanks for answering (and thanks to everyone else who did too!!)-
>        You agreed with Albert about Plaster of Paris, then Albert changed
>to not liking Portland Cement..... why don't you like plaster of paris.....
>it dries fast, so thought that might help.
>        What is Whiting..... if I remember right, it is Calcium
>Carbonate.... which is ground limestone... (in which case if I sieve it
>finely enough maybe I can use the garden stuff)...... is this correct
>anyone?????
>       I still am not sure if the linseed oil sold in little cans for an oil
>paint medium, is boiled linseed oil, does anyone know???? I wonder if it
>isn't just super refined for fine arts??? 
>        Thanks Albert for warning about cement (portland), I had already
>gathered from the archives that this was a big NO NO!!!  Thanks again all of
>you....  Meg
>                                              
>
>At 10:37 AM 12/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>Meg-
>>	I recently decided to work in lead came as well.  I tried several
>>"recipes" with items I have around the house, and although certain aspects
>>of it worked, I was dissatisfied with the final results.  I would take
>>Albert's advice about no Plaster-of-Paris.... this was MY first mistake!
>>What follows is the recipe given to me by a trusted friend, and it was like
>>night and day, once I got the mixture right.
>>
>>
>>Cement for Lead Came
>>
>>In Can #1 combine 2 measures of turpentine with 1 measure of boiled linseed
>>oil.
>>
>>(Here you MUST use (boiled) linseed oil.... unboiled will not set up right,
>>I am unsure as to what the boiling point of the oil is, so I don't know if
>>you can boil your own... It is available at stores that sell paint, and
>>REAL turpentine....not the environmentally friendly substitute Turp-a-tine
>>or Turp-ta-tine, which are substantially more expensive anyway.)
>>
>>In Can #2 combine Whiting and lampblack depending on the size of your
>>project....
>>
>>(both cans will keep well if covered, so don't worry about having a little
>>extra.  I have used other colorant mediums.... a liquid stove black worked,
>>although I had to add more dry ingredients.... it achieved a grey color
>>that was acceptable.  I think that acrylic may work.... never tried it, and
>>a cement colorant may as well.... I would be careful of grit that may
>>scratch the glass.)
>>
>>Anyway...In Container #3 or a mixing bowl, combine dry ingredients with
>>enough wet ingredients to have a frosting like consistency.  Then apply to
>>panel.  If you are going to vary the recipe in anyway.... I would recommend
>>trying it on a sample piece with just clear window glass first.... a few
>>lead lines will do, it will also help you get the technique of application
>>down pat before your larger project.  
>>
>>Remember to save any 'scrubber' whiting that is not clumped.... as it can
>>be used in your next batch of cement.
>>
>>Hope this is helpful, and hope there are other suggestions for you.... I am
>>sure that if I have said anything wrong, a correction will be forthcoming
>>*wink*.
>>
>>Dale
>>
>>----------
>>> From: Richard LaVal <rlaval@sol.racsa.co.cr>
>>> To: glass@bungi.com
>>> Subject: Gatewayed mail message
>>> Date: Tuesday, December 30, 1997 7:44 AM
>>> 
>>> Dear Bungians,
>>>         I decided to try out a project with lead came... and I can't get
>>> commercial putty... cement whatever here.  On reading the back archives
>>from
>>> bungi on the subject, there are recipes which include plaster of paris,
>>> calcium carbonate, and boiled linseed oil.   I have plaster of paris, and
>>I
>>> have finely ground limestone (which I am told it is calcium cabonate) for
>>my
>>> garden, and my mother has linseed oil as a medium for her oil painting
>>(not
>>> boiled, can I boil it?).  Can I use these ingredients?  Can I use acrylic
>>> paint to darken it?  Would the black powder  they use to color cement
>>work?
>>> I assume that it would look nicer dark, rather than to have all that
>>white
>>> shining up through the glass.
>>>         Someone told me (I haven't checked it may be an evil rumor) that
>>no
>>> one who works in came here cements it... that that is only for northern
>>> climes... sounds like hogwash to me as I gather that part of the reason
>>is
>>> for reinforcing... and part for weatherproofing... and it rains and blows
>>> here too!!  Anyone have any opinions out there???   Thanks Meg
>>>   \o/  \o/  \o/  \o/   \o/  \o/  \o/  \o/
>>> Richard LaVal and Meg Wallace
>>> apdo. 24-5655
>>> Monteverde, Puntarenas
>>> COSTA RICA
>>> phone 645 5052
>>> 
>>> ----
>>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>----
>>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>>
>  \o/  \o/  \o/  \o/   \o/  \o/  \o/  \o/
>Richard LaVal and Meg Wallace
>apdo. 24-5655
>Monteverde, Puntarenas
>COSTA RICA
>phone 645 5052
>
>----
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>
>

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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 13:29:09 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: just found pictorial how glass is made site
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 13:27:48 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.52748.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I know this is boring to all you experts.  But I thought us novices and
silent lurkers might be interested.
http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
PS  if you are a crafter, check out all the other stuff at this site.
It is also a free website and I thought I recognized a few names.
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 15:12:51 1998
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From: LElsbury <LElsbury@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: just found pictorial how glass is made site
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:01:57 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.23157.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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In a message dated 98-01-04 16:34:22 EST, you write:

<< http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
 PS  if you are a crafter, check out all the other stuff at this site.
 It is also a free website >>

I'm sure there are others, but this is one site I hadn't found yet - Thanks
Shirley!!
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 15:58:03 1998
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Subject: Re: just found pictorial how glass is made site
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 15:56:55 -0800
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Very interesting site, thx, Shirley, for sharing.  I, for one, definately
did not find this boring!

----------
> From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: just found pictorial how glass is made site
> Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 1:27 PM
> 
> I know this is boring to all you experts.  But I thought us novices and
> silent lurkers might be interested.
> http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm>  
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 17:17:42 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!jroey
From: jroey@juno.com (jerri m Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Mosaic glue & bottle cutter questions
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:13:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.151350.0>
References: <<1998Jan4.52748.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi all,

	I wanted to make one of those Hurricane lamps where you glue on
the glass tiles and then grout.  I have never done anything with grout. 
Here are my questions:

	1) Do you need to use the mosaic glue, or is there something you
can pick up at Home
	     Depot to use?

	2) Glass Crafters has a bottle/Jar cutter on sale in their recent
flyer.  Has anyone out  
	      there used it?  If I like the hurricane lamp, it might be
fun to make some out of jars.

Thanks,
Jerri
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 17:56:21 1998
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From: Pball1951 <Pball1951@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: kiln controllers
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 20:50:47 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.15047.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

     I'm looking at kiln controllers and would like input from satisfied
customers.  What brand would you recommend, and why?
     Thanks in advance,
Pat B.
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 18:39:10 1998
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X-Path: vdot.net!shyguy
From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: URL correction wasRe: just found pictorial how glass is made site
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:17:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.161753.0>
References: <<1998Jan4.52748.0>>
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Organization: Cox's Mower Service
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--------------299C5D78325F71C903838731
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
To make it easier - there was an extra '/' in the url instead of a '.', for
those of use that are lazy (grin)
Shirley Balloch wrote:

> I know this is boring to all you experts.  But I thought us novices and
> silent lurkers might be interested.
> http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
> PS  if you are a crafter, check out all the other stuff at this site.
> It is also a free website and I thought I recognized a few names.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



--
'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


--------------299C5D78325F71C903838731
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<HTML>
<A HREF="http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm">http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm</A>
<BR>To make it easier - there was an extra '/' in the url instead of a
'.', for those of use that are lazy (grin)&nbsp;
<BR>Shirley Balloch wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>I know this is boring to all you experts.&nbsp; But
I thought us novices and
<BR>silent lurkers might be interested.
<BR><A HREF="http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm">http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm</A>
<BR>PS&nbsp; if you are a crafter, check out all the other stuff at this
site.
<BR>It is also a free website and I thought I recognized a few names.
<BR>----
<BR>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
<BR>To send to the list,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; please mail to:
glass@bungi.com
<BR>Archives available at <A HREF="http://www.bungi.com/glass">http://www.bungi.com/glass</A></BLOCKQUOTE>
&nbsp;

<P>--
<BR>'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
<BR>altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
<BR>most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
<BR>others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
<BR>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------299C5D78325F71C903838731--

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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 18:40:08 1998
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From:         mail <HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
To:           glass@bungi.com
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Subject:      Re: no body home????
Date:         Sun, 04 Jan 98 21:30:13 EST
Message-ID:   <980104.213804.EST.HCLADM02@UConnVM.UConn.Edu>
References: <<199801040015.TAA29092@uz.ComCAT.COM>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Personally, I'm recovering from a cold and preparing for an accelerated
algebra course I'm teaching soon.  I am also doing my state sales tax.
Have to do inventory.  Sending out craft fair applications, reworking
my exhibit, redrawing some old designs.  Waiting for my new scanner
to arrive and reading about scanners and Adobe Photoshop.  And I
even got some good books for Christmas!
My husband is busy making a shade for a bankers lamp right now...
see, some actual touching of glass going on around here.
Have a Happy New Year.

Dorothy K

--
Dorothy Kalahan, Interlibrary Loan  (860) 679-2940  FAX (860) 679-4046
UCONN Health Center Library, POB 4003, Farmington CT 06034-4003
HCLADM02@UConnVM.uconn.edu
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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 19:00:15 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Mosaic glue & bottle cutter questions
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 98 22:00:31 -0500
Message-ID: <199801050258.VAA08947@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jerri wrote:
>
>	I wanted to make one of those Hurricane lamps where you glue on
>the glass tiles and then grout.  I have never done anything with grout. 
>Here are my questions:
>
>	1) Do you need to use the mosaic glue, or is there something you
>can pick up at Home
>	     Depot to use?

Suzanne answers:

I have done it using E-3000 available in a stained glass or hobby store. 
It worked fine. Sorry, can't answer No. 2.

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From owner-glass Sun Jan  4 20:50:15 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: kiln controllers
Date: Sun,  4 Jan 1998 23:45:04, -0500
Message-ID: <199801050445.XAA08424@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I'm looking at kiln controllers and would like input from satisfied
customers.  What brand would you recommend, and why?
     Thanks in advance,
Pat B.

I have used the Paragon Digital Temperature Controller (DTC) 600 for 
hundreds of firings over the past seven years. The DTC 600 has never 
given me a problem. It is capable of controlling the kiln through six 
stages to include rate, temperature and hold at each stage. Also has 
alarm set point and delayed start. Can be set to read in F' or C'. A 
program of many hours will be repeated to the exact minute. Once I 
work out a successful program I can have confidence that it will 
yield the same results in the future. It is a pleasure to load the 
kiln and come back and find the work accomplished just as planned. My 
DTC 600 is installed on the kiln. I believe the model that can be 
readly moved from kiln to kiln has a different model number.

Get control & get hot, Bob 

____
Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working 
with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 01:29:29 1998
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From: "Kathryn C. Kelly" <kkelly@hal-pc.org>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: URL correction 
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 03:27:47 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.212747.0>
References: <<1998Jan4.161753.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users
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> http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm

I'm getting a Not Found message when I request this address.  
Any other corrections necessary?
Kathryn
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 03:10:05 1998
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: kiln controllers
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 11:10:33 +0000
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Precedence: bulk

At 23:45 04/01/98 -0500, BOB wrote in part:

>I have used the Paragon Digital Temperature Controller (DTC) 600 for 
>hundreds of firings over the past seven years. The DTC 600 has never 
>given me a problem. 

Sam agrees with Bob's recommendation as our DTC600 has been in use for about
10 years I think with no problems
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 05:42:45 1998
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From: "Sheila" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: URL correction 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:48:23 -0500
Message-ID: <199801051344.IAA07939@ee.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

In the original msg. after the www there was a / instead of the dot (.) I just changed it to to dot
and it worked fine for me.  The way it is typed below should work for you.   Hope that helps you
out.

Sheila
Ohio

----------
| From: Kathryn C. Kelly <kkelly@hal-pc.org>
| To: glass@bungi.com
| Subject: Re: URL correction 
| Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:27 AM
| 
| > http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
| 
| I'm getting a Not Found message when I request this address.  
| Any other corrections necessary?
| Kathryn
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 06:39:18 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Mosaic glue & bottle cutter questions
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:37:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.4376.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by Jerri:
>       1) Do you need to use the mosaic glue, or is there something you
can pick up at Home Depot to use?
        2) Glass Crafters has a bottle/Jar cutter on sale in their recent=

flyer.  Has anyone out there used it?  If I like the hurricane lamp, it
might be
fun to make some out of jars.
Thanks,Jerri<

1) You can use GE Silicon II sealant, which you can purchase
from Home Depot.  Look in the tile section.  Works well.
2) I saw that ad from Glass Crafters and am sorely tempted to
pick up that cutter and try the same thing.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 06:41:15 1998
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X-Path: water.waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: kiln controllers
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:40:52 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801051440.JAA21203@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Pat wrote,
>     I'm looking at kiln controllers and would like input from satisfied
>customers.  What brand would you recommend, and why?
>     Thanks in advance,
Can I ask you a few question first?

What type of kiln are you using?
What are you using the kiln for?
What is your budget?
And what do you want this contoller to do for you?

Once I know the answes I can give you many alternatives.

my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 07:31:13 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:30:32 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: URL correction
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:11:00 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan4.23110.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just went there and found it to be operational, although they are still working on it. (using Explorer 3.2)

Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	Kathryn C. Kelly [SMTP:kkelly@hal-pc.org]
Sent:	Monday, January 05, 1998 1:28 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: URL correction

> http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm

I'm getting a Not Found message when I request this address.  
Any other corrections necessary?
Kathryn

begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT
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M8 ]@'( Q.20Y.#0@.C(T8$%-:3&75&\N=V<+8 000%9B&P`IP"X%H&TQF'4,
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MT ```P`0$ `````#`!$0``````,`@!#_____0 `',(!#`/#K&;T!0 `(,(!#
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/( `````#``TT_3<``.AR
`
end

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 07:42:47 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:42:22 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: dlr
From: dlr@bungi.com (Dave Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:42:12 PST
Message-ID: <m0xpEfN-0000aOC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There are now
almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  During
the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, and
will be on-line searchable.  

If you have some images of your projects you would like to see on the 
web, please drop me (dlr@bungi.com) mail, and we can work out how to
get them up for you.  I've also posted a recent picture of Glenna,
and some of her latest projects at http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/

Thanks to my wonderful wife for administering this list, and thank
you all for sharing your insightful comments during the past years.
Happy new year to all!

Dave Rand

-- 
Dave Rand
dlr@bungi.com
http://www.bungi.com
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 07:52:47 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:52:22 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: Int'l, Guild, of, Glass, Artists
Subject: Tour of English Stained Glass ... reduced!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:59:13 +0000
Message-ID: <m0xpEot-0000TfC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

We just heard from the organizer of the tour of English stained 
glass, which will be led by Julie L. Sloan next July (11-19). They've 
asked the hotel and transportation people to sharpen their pencils 
and have, as a result, come up with a lower price for the tour: 
$3,870 (but members of the Guild get a 10% discount, so they'll need 
to come up with only $3,480.)

Okay, it seems like a lot of money, but it includes good hotels, 
excellent transportation, and great food. Not to mention Julie 
Sloan's expertise and undivided attention, plus you'll get together 
with Sarah Brown, author of "Glass Painters," "Stained Glass:
       An Illustrated History," and "Life, Death and Art: The
       Medieval Stained Glass of Fairford Parish Church."  

       Michael Coles, a glass historian who has been a
       consultant for English Heritage, the equivalent of The
       National Trust for Historic Preservation in the United
       States.   

       Sarianne Durie, renowned stained glass artist and restorer ...
       and a member of The Art Workers Guild.  

       Martin Harrison, well-known author of "Victorian Stained
       Glass."  

       Susan Matthews, Director of the Stained Glass Museum at
       Ely Cathedral.  

       Malcolm Pollard, a leading authority on the glass of William
       Morris.  
and
       Stephen Wildman, an expert in English Victorian glass and
       the work of the Pre-Raphaelites.   

Take a look at http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/tour/
and you'll see what I mean about this being a great event that you 
won't want to miss.

Albert Lewis
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 08:04:53 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:04:22 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "jean" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: URL correction 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:04:40 -0800
Message-ID: <199801051600.IAA02760@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


I also got a Not Found msg with the original address. I tried the home
address;  www.ironandglass.com and went right to it. Do try that.

----------
> From: Kathryn C. Kelly <kkelly@hal-pc.org>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: URL correction 
> Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 1:27 AM
> 
> > http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
> 
> I'm getting a Not Found message when I request this address.  
> Any other corrections necessary?
> Kathryn
>
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 08:59:05 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:58:25 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: mail.fidnet.com!dawnm
From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Looking for Design of Indian Chief
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 11:04:20 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.19420.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Happy New Years Everyone,

Does anyone know a source of a design for an Indian Chief?  I know that =
Carolyn Kyle has a couple of designs (Forever Proud,  ? Warrior, etc.) =
but I was looking for something a little different than those.   It doesn=
't necessarily have to be a chief, but that would be preferred.  

I am looking for a stained glass design, not just a picture.    I have =
never designed anything for glass yet, and since I'm so pressed for time =
on this project, this wouldn't be the best time for me to try to learn. =
 (It's a birthday present for my grandfather.)  If you know of any patter=
n books that feature these types of designs, please let me know.  

Any and all suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dawn

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 10:41:24 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 10:40:33 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:57:10 +0000
Message-ID: <m0xpHRl-0000YAC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
> List. 

Congratulations and thanks are in order, Dave, to you and your wife. 
It's heart-warming to hear a husband describe his wife as 
"wonderful," particularly in these times, when all too often we see 
people split up because they thought it'd all be easy. Marriage is 
difficult but worth the candle. Congratulations on the list and on 
your relationship. May it long endure. 

Albert

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 11:05:44 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:05:03 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: tznet.com!diacca
From: Pat Diacca Topp <diacca@tznet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: kiln controllers
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:47:22 -0600
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980105124722.007ab3a0@mail.tznet.com>
References: <<1998Jan5.15047.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

HI!  I have a Bentrup a German computer.  I know many who have a ramp
master, but I was just starting out in fusing when I purchased it, and
thought it sounded confusing.  I have never used firing cones, as I
previously was an enamelist and had a set point controller on my kiln, as I
 needed to hold kiln at 1450 degrees for the whole time I was working.
Mostly worked by instinct after doing over 2000 cloisonne' pieces.  I like
the Bentrup and it holds 9 programs <actually more than you need for
fusing> and is quite easy to set up.  However, the first half of
instruction book is in technical German <I can read some German> but the
2nd half of book is in bad English.  Also, I was computer illerate at the
time. 

At 08:50 PM 1/4/98 EST, you wrote:
>     I'm looking at kiln controllers and would like input from satisfied
>customers.  What brand would you recommend, and why?
>     Thanks in advance,
>Pat B.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 11:35:17 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:34:38 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: mail.fidnet.com!dawnm
From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Dedication Ceremony
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 98 13:40:28 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.214028.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Best Bib and Tucker folks;  the heathen Elisabeth is going to 
>Church!!! (Watch out for the Viking horns...)

Okay Elisabeth, where are you?  We're all waiting to hear how the dedicat=
ion ceremony went.....  Any flashes of lightning, earth shaking, etc?

Dawn

----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 11:52:37 1998
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	for rglass-42; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:51:49 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: juno.com!jroey
From: jroey@juno.com (jerri m Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:47:29 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.74729.0>
References: <<m0xpEfN-0000aOC@daver.bungi.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenna and Dave,

	Thanks to you both for keeping the list going.  I've learned a
lot and have gotten so much out of this group.

	Glenna, I got a chance to look at your page and really enjoyed
it.  Nice work!  I also like the way you used the glass for the
backgrounds in the ship pictures.  I was just wondering if you do your
best glass work when you're "provoked"?  ;)

Jerri
	



On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:42:12 PST dlr@bungi.com (Dave Rand) writes:
>Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
>List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There 
>are now
>almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  
>During
>the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, 
>and
>will be on-line searchable.  
>
>If you have some images of your projects you would like to see on the 
>web, please drop me (dlr@bungi.com) mail, and we can work out how to
>get them up for you.  I've also posted a recent picture of Glenna,
>and some of her latest projects at http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/
>
>Thanks to my wonderful wife for administering this list, and thank
>you all for sharing your insightful comments during the past years.
>Happy new year to all!
>
>Dave Rand
>
>-- 
>Dave Rand
>dlr@bungi.com
>http://www.bungi.com
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 12:46:25 1998
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X-Path: techline.com!mamurphy
From: Mike and Amy Murphy <mamurphy@techline.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Grid for grinder
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:42:07 -0800
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980105124207.006acce0@mail.techline.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have owned a Glastar grinder model G4 for almost forever. It works great
for me. Several years ago I purchased a new grid for the top. Somehow I
have almost worn thru the grid top and since my grinder is a dinosauer I
cannot get a replacement top. 

Does anyone out there have a G-4 mdoel that has died and doesn't need the
top anymore or does anyone have any ideas what I could use for the top?
Since this baby is so old, I hate to spend tooooooo much on it but I also
don't want to purchase another grinder when this one is still running great!!
 
Thanks!!
Amy the Glass Goddess
Mike and Amy --- A Subscriber at Techline 

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 13:43:36 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:41:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.114122.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Dave-

You're the one that deserves the
pat on the back and thank you!
We wouldn't be having all this =

fun if it weren't for your generosity
in providing the site!  Happy =

New Year to you and Glenna.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 13:44:10 1998
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Grid for grinder
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:37:49 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.53749.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

my Glastar is one step older than yours, a G3 dinosaur, that is still 
serving me well, but I did replace the aluminum deck with a Plexiglas one 
that I made myself. I just used the original deck as a template for shape 
and screw down locations for the Plexiglas and then drilled a grid of holes 
over the entire surface, works just fine. Hope this helps.

Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	Mike and Amy Murphy [SMTP:mamurphy@techline.com]
Sent:	Monday, January 05, 1998 12:42 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Grid for grinder

I have owned a Glastar grinder model G4 for almost forever. It works great
for me. Several years ago I purchased a new grid for the top. Somehow I
have almost worn thru the grid top and since my grinder is a dinosauer I
cannot get a replacement top.

Does anyone out there have a G-4 mdoel that has died and doesn't need the
top anymore or does anyone have any ideas what I could use for the top?
Since this baby is so old, I hate to spend tooooooo much on it but I also
don't want to purchase another grinder when this one is still running 
great!!

Thanks!!
Amy the Glass Goddess
Mike and Amy --- A Subscriber at Techline


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`
end

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 14:29:58 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ebtech.net!proffire
From: "Doug Scale" <proffire@ebtech.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:24:47 -0500
Message-ID: <199801052235.RAA18672@sleepy.ebtech.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



----------
> From: Dave Rand <dlr@bungi.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
> Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 10:42 AM
> 
> Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained
Glass
> List. 

Glenna and Dave

Thanks very much for all of your efforts towards keeping this list
going.  I'm sure all of us, whether seasoned vets or newbies have
learned a lot from the postings.  We appreciate your work.

Sincerely,

Doug Scale
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 14:42:22 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!LElsbury
From: LElsbury <LElsbury@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: bevel overlay
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:05:16 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.22516.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Shirley - Thanks for the hammered glass suggestion.  I think at this point
it's exactly what I'm going to use.  The only other possibility was GNA clear,
but I like the idea and mental image of soft hammered with the same blue
outside of that.  Thanks again!!!!!!!  Lu Ann
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 15:19:59 1998
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X-Path: mars.ark.com!wmunro
From: wmunro@mars.ark.com (Wayne Munro)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: URL correction
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:19:10 -0800
Message-ID: <199801052319.PAA18172@ark.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenn....I see you are from B.C. Where abouts are you 'situated'?
......Wayne


>Just went there and found it to be operational, although they are still
working on it. (using Explorer 3.2)
>
>Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
>


Wayne Munro 'Snail mail' address
2960 Suffield Road,
Courtenay, B.C. Canada   V9N-3V5

Phone and Fax-- (250) 338-5507  
 "Call before sending a fax so setup is complete"

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 15:21:15 1998
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: kiln controllers (question on delayed start)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:16:24 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.231624.0>
References: <<199801050445.XAA08424@mime4.prodigy.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Bob (and others)

I have been runing my DTC600 for a couple of years, but have never
learned how to operate the delayed start.  Neither the instructions nor
the supplier (UK) was of any help.  Correspondence with the manufacturer
has been one way.

Can anyone instruct me on how to activate the delayed start?

steve

In message <199801050445.XAA08424@mime4.prodigy.com>, BOB   DUCHESNEAU
<YWAH36A@prodigy.com> writes
>I'm looking at kiln controllers and would like input from satisfied
>customers.  What brand would you recommend, and why?
>     Thanks in advance,
>Pat B.
>
<snip>
>and delayed start. 
<snip>
-- 
Steve Richard
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 15:23:50 1998
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Taurus II- 2, Need some help Please
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:01:01 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.2311.0>
References: <<1998Jan2.17437.0@?>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Here goes!
1st - I don't own one of these machines.
BUT Ive seen a lot of advice from both users and manufacturer that *ice
cubes* should be used to cool the blade!
Why don't the manufacturers design a machine with adequate cooling
properties?  It costs enough!
Maybe I just want the machine to work without needing to have a freezwer
in my studio.
Steve
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 16:03:09 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Taurus II- 2, Need some help Please
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 18:57:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.135738.0>
References: <<1998Jan5.2311.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Steve Richard wrote:
> 
> Here goes!
> 1st - I don't own one of these machines.
> BUT Ive seen a lot of advice from both users and manufacturer that *ice
> cubes* should be used to cool the blade!
> Why don't the manufacturers design a machine with adequate cooling
> properties?  It costs enough!
> Maybe I just want the machine to work without needing to have a freezwer
> in my studio.
> Steve
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


it really does'nt need it. it cut's fine with out them. i think the
cubes chill the blade and make it contract. i guess it works better that
way...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 16:20:08 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Internet Message 
Date: Mon,  5 Jan 1998 19:15:06, -0500
Message-ID: <199801060015.TAA18242@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

steve writes:
I have been runing my DTC600 for a couple of years, but have never
learned how to operate the delayed start.  Neither the instructions 
nor
the supplier (UK) was of any help.  Correspondence with the 
manufacturer
has been one way.

Can anyone instruct me on how to activate the delayed start?

To set Delay Fire, touch ENTER (*) then 3. dELA will appear. Enter 
delay time in hours and minutes (e.g. 12 hours and 30 minutes = 12.
30). Then touch ENTER (*). (Delay zeros out after each firing.)

The above paragraph is quoted from Paragon DTC600C & DTC600 
Instructions (M-126/10-93)

Don't delay, get hot, Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working 
with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 18:35:47 1998
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From: C Coldfeet <CColdfeet@aol.com>
To: Glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: (Re) list
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:32:29 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.23229.0>
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Since before Chirstmas I have not received any mail from you.  Please add me
to the list again.
Thank you  
C Coldfeet
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 19:01:07 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: glass selection
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 18:11:55 -0800
Message-ID: <199801060300.TAA15860@mail1.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Jackie....a couple of ways to do filigree.

Do the whole project and then solder the filigree over the wings.
Foil the filigree on to the wings before you solder  them in.
Tiffany ALWAYS put the filigree the glass on the outside of the wings.

Poppies leaf filigree either inside or outside... .flowers only out side
filigrees.

I use a wispy glass for the wings so the light accents the filigree.
I only use the "tiff" odyssey sized wings.....could probably use a
perforated type brass screen and cut out
irregular holes in it.
I have yet to have a wing crack while soldering, but I have only done about
40 d/fly shades.
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 19:28:25 1998
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From: "Myrddn" <exotic@mail.lobo.net>
To: dlr@bungi.com (Dave Rand),
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:28:09 +0000
Message-ID: <m0xpPg8-00010KC@daver.bungi.com>
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Precedence: bulk

Loved seeing a picture of what another Bungian looks like.  Loved Glenna 
"provoked" also.  

Especially her work. Makes me want to keep on trucking

On  5 Jan 98, Dave Rand 
wrote:

> Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
> List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There are now
> almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  During the
> coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, and will be
> on-line searchable.  
> 
> If you have some images of your projects you would like to see on the 
> web, please drop me (dlr@bungi.com) mail, and we can work out how to
> get them up for you.  I've also posted a recent picture of Glenna,
> and some of her latest projects at http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/
> 
> Thanks to my wonderful wife for administering this list, and thank
> you all for sharing your insightful comments during the past years.
> Happy new year to all!
> 
> Dave Rand
> 
> -- 
> Dave Rand
> dlr@bungi.com
> http://www.bungi.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
Myrddn
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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 20:54:21 1998
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X-Path: voicenet.com!lydia
From: "Lydia" <lydia@voicenet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: URL correction 
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:33:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan5.183342.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I just went there and it was up, maybe when you tried it was down? I use
Explorer 4.0 browser and also Netscape 4.0,  sometimes I get an address not
found message and 2 seconds later the same browser and connection finds the
address .. go figure..

Love light and laughter,
Lydia
-----Original Message-----
From: Kathryn C. Kelly <kkelly@hal-pc.org>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 4:43 AM
Subject: Re: URL correction


>> http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
>
>I'm getting a Not Found message when I request this address.
>Any other corrections necessary?
>Kathryn
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Mon Jan  5 21:00:39 1998
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From: "VALERIE PHELPS" <ncscoutr@beachaccess.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: subscribe
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:52:15
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.75215.0>
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Add me back to the list please?


 * JDS Mail & News

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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 10:35:10 1998
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X-Path: netrox.net!athena
From: "M.-J. Taylor" <athena@netrox.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: tables
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 13:33:43 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980106133343.006b142c@pop.netrox.net>
References: <<1998Jan4.32621.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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At 11:26 AM 1/4/98 -0800, you wrote:
>My main work table is 4ft. by 8ft.,35 and a half inches high.  This
>highth seems to be recommended for ease of cutting and for less stress
>on the back. 

Height depends on the height of the artist. At 5'9", I find that 39-41
inches is perfect height for my glass work top and, incidentally, for my
kitchen counters. I believe I read in a book on home ergonomics that 3
inches below the elbow is the ideal height for work counters, and that has
proven to be true for me.  I find it back breaking to work at a lower counter.

Happy New Year to All!

M.-J.

****What I write is just what *I* think. Take what *you* like and leave the
rest.****

M.-J. Taylor 
<athena@bridge.net> 

Although we cannot change the direction of the wind,
              we can adjust our sails. (Unknown)
 
                                              |\                ( )
 _____________________________________________|_\_____________________
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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 14:48:00 1998
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From: MJC1130 <MJC1130@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: remove me from mailing list
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 17:41:50 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.224150.0>
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please delete my name from your mailing list. do not send me any more e-mail
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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 15:29:55 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1AD1.28308F40"
Subject: RE: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:00:17 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.16017.0>
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1AD1.28308F40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I agree.. I just started to read the archives also.. I have been  on =
this news group for about 1 year.. Have read many messages from the =
members, but it is very exciting to read what happened 3 years ago..  If =
I wore a hat, I would take it off as a act of respect to people like =
Glenna and Dave, and the first members, especially Howard.. His =
helpfulness on lamp making is remarkable..
So, thank you.
Gloria




-----Original Message-----
From:	Doug Scale [SMTP:proffire@ebtech.net]
Sent:	Monday, January 05, 1998 8:25 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List



----------
> From: Dave Rand <dlr@bungi.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
> Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 10:42 AM
>=20
> Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained
Glass
> List.=20

Glenna and Dave

Thanks very much for all of your efforts towards keeping this list
going.  I'm sure all of us, whether seasoned vets or newbies have
learned a lot from the postings.  We appreciate your work.

Sincerely,

Doug Scale
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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 15:30:21 1998
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X-Path: usaor.net!3hounds
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'bungians'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Web sites
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 18:29:30 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.162930.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have been wondering if anyone is bringing in an income from their Web =
sites.. I have noticed some are nice  photos of their work and an e mail =
address is attached.. Another version is photos with  prices and a =
shopping cart to go with it.. Have been considering  advertising but =
would be fearful if the workload became overwhelming and I could not =
fill the orders.
Thanks for the info.
Gloria
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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 16:33:41 1998
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X-Path: mail.island.net!seaspray
From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Web sites
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:31:33 -0800
Message-ID: <199801070031.QAA03172@norm.island.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I have been wondering if anyone is bringing in an income from their Web =
>sites.. I have noticed some are nice  photos of their work and an e mail =
>address is attached.. Another version is photos with  prices and a =
>shopping cart to go with it.. Have been considering  advertising but =
>would be fearful if the workload became overwhelming and I could not =
>fill the orders.

Hey Gloria,

I mainly use my web page (graciously provided by Albert and igga) as a
marketing tool...a place to refer prospective clients to look at examples of
my work.   Essentially it takes the place of an artist's portfolio.  I have
only done one piece directly through someone looking at my site and
ordering.  I also have a friend who runs a virtual gallery, and most of the
artists on her site find sales similarly slow.

IMHO the internet may may one of a set of marketing strategies to bring in
the work :-)

Cheers

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative
www.bungi.com/glass/igga/synergy

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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 16:43:44 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Web sites
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 16:44:33 -0800
Message-ID: <199801070042.QAA18643@mail1.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Without divulging any sensitive information (Macy's does not tell Gimbles
everything)...I can lend a bit of insight.

My site gets many (relative term) hits a month. Most, to all "lamp kickers"
(as opposed to tire kickers), have NO idea of cost of my work. I respond in
a sensitive and encouraging manor without demeaning their
lack of knowledge. (not usually like me, however)

I have sold a few MAJOR pieces over the net.

What price range and what do have to sell, and why would someone buy from
you without touching the item. In most cases the "educated" buyers are
willing to compare the s@#% from the orient and 3rd and 4th world countries
to what you are trying to sell. WHAT...you want more than $.02 per hour,
what gall!

IMHO, selling art (craft) over the net AIN'T easy....do  not worry about
more than you can handle, worry about anyone willing to give you a chance.

more later should the responses dictate............enjoy H



weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 16:52:05 1998
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From: clipper1@erols.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 19:51:52 -0500 (EST)
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

        Well, I went ahead and sent a picture in, and have to say that Dave
sized it and got the colors and contrast to turn out much better than they
looked just from my playing around with what the camera gave me. It's on
http://www.bungi.com/glass/members
Thanks again Dave!


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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 17:51:39 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1AE4.EFBC4280"
Subject: RE: Web sites
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:45:03 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.18453.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1AE4.EFBC4280
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Howard,
Thank you.. Yes, you are right, I was afraid of the competing factor and =
honest answers  to my question about Web sites.. Yes. also  I can see =
your New Jersey origin in the reply you made to me, about Gimbel's which =
had to close about 10 years ago and Macy's which is the parent company =
to Kaufmann's in Pittsburgh..=20
I am thinking about it but I agree with you about the originality  of =
the pieces.. I do not do Odysey style  lamps but panels  (lamps and flat =
panels) and I know that I have to be more original.. So thank you again.
gloria



-----Original Message-----
From:	Howard and Elaine Rubin [SMTP:Weaver51@teleport.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, January 06, 1998 10:45 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Web sites

Without divulging any sensitive information (Macy's does not tell =
Gimbles
everything)...I can lend a bit of insight.

My site gets many (relative term) hits a month. Most, to all "lamp =
kickers"
(as opposed to tire kickers), have NO idea of cost of my work. I respond =
in
a sensitive and encouraging manor without demeaning their
lack of knowledge. (not usually like me, however)

I have sold a few MAJOR pieces over the net.

What price range and what do have to sell, and why would someone buy =
from
you without touching the item. In most cases the "educated" buyers are
willing to compare the s@#% from the orient and 3rd and 4th world =
countries
to what you are trying to sell. WHAT...you want more than $.02 per hour,
what gall!

IMHO, selling art (craft) over the net AIN'T easy....do  not worry about
more than you can handle, worry about anyone willing to give you a =
chance.

more later should the responses dictate............enjoy H



weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Tue Jan  6 21:40:40 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Looking for Design of Indian Chief
Date: Tue, 06 Jan 1998 19:03:16 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan6.11316.0>
References: <<1998Jan5.19420.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Are you familiar with Carolyn Kyle presents Glass Patterns In Color II
book?
She has four Indian patterns on pages 24, 25 and 26.  They are titled
Forever Proud, Plains Warrior, Cheyenne Winter, and Navajo Brave.  All
but the Navajo are on horses.  There is also Shoshoni Encampment, a
picture of two teepees with an Indian woman sitting outside of one.
I was surprized how few I found in my Southwest books.
Desert Skies by Joyce Hurley; Images of Joy Publications has
Antelope/Deer Kachina, Morning Singer Kachina, Eagle Dancer in her
Monument Valley Series. They are on pages 7-8-9. She has Wind Song
(maiden, a long haired woman sqatting with robe and hair encompassing a
navajo jug), Long Haired Kachina and Evening Star (woman) on pages
18-19. Both are for side panels.  And on page 41 she has a Kokopelli.
And if you really want to go far afield.  Donna Schulze has the most
beautiful Indian Angel on the cover of her Angels II book,a Papillon
Publications,Inc.
Sorry, I know I have the dying warrior on his horse slumped over with
lance in his back, but I can't find it.
I vote for the Angels if you are taking votes.
Good Luck


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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 05:05:22 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Web sites
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:12:24 +0000
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Precedence: bulk

> >would be fearful if the workload became overwhelming and I could not =
> >fill the orders.

Gloria, Carol's quite right when she points out that a web site is 
just one arrow in the artist/craftsperson's self-promotional quiver 
... don't worry about getting millions of orders; it's a trickle, 
more like. But as Carol also points out, it's a good way to make your 
work accessible to the entire world ... well, the percentage that has 
access to the web, anyway, and that's growing steadily.  So consider 
doing it for those reasons.

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 07:09:11 1998
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X-Path: memach.com!lcbell
From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:10:44 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.51044.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My local glass supplier has some discontinued glass on sale. She says =
it's Merry-go-round. I haven't seen it yet. I'll likely go see her this =
afternoon. She says it's prettier than a Spectrum Whispy and more =
colorful.=20

If I fall in love with this glass, are their any pitfalls working with =
this glass and a relative novice?

Let you know what I buy with that gift certificate my DH gave me for =
Christmas.

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 08:11:55 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:13:05 -0800
Message-ID: <199801071611.IAA25901@mail1.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

To the best of my knowledge MGR is LONG out of business!

A pitfall is, you CANNOT get anymore of it to replace or match a project.

Cuts no worse than any other machine glass.

enjoy, H
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 08:30:33 1998
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:28:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.62812.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Howard,=20

Please clarify what machine glass is.
Isn't that mostly what people use or should I say "have a choice of from =
their local dealers". The only non-machine glass that I know I have, I =
got from Blenko, blown bottles cut and unrolled into sheets. Would =
Spectrum and Bullseye be machine glass?

Linda Campbell


Howard said:

To the best of my knowledge MGR is LONG out of business!

A pitfall is, you CANNOT get anymore of it to replace or match a =
project.

Cuts no worse than any other machine glass.


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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 09:16:18 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:15:49 -0800
Message-ID: <199801071713.JAA18275@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Machine made glass............easier to explain handmade glass........
Bullseye, Uroborus, Yock stipples.

Spectrum is machine made and automated.


Machine is measured and "poured by machine" and usually a long strip that
is cut to length and crated
....hand made, people go into a furnace (s) with a ladle, scoop out batch
glass, add pieces of color, pour into the hopper and work the glass by hand
(swirl, mix, confetti, stringer) as it comes out of the hopper and before
it is rolled out on the platen (in some cases the rolling is also all by
hand) 
other cases the roller is power operated.

MGR was a cheap non-exotic type glass........good for most things and like
spectrum, but not as many colors and textures. 
Nothing wrong with using it,,,,I would not do lamps in it, but if you can
get REAL cheap do it!
later, H



weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 10:35:37 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Hey Howard
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 10:33:52 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.23352.0>
References: <<199801071713.JAA18275@smtp3.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I hope that didn't sound rude.
I have been toying with the idea of making a stained glass porch light.
I found a site that makes a nice fixture (any one else interested check
out manufacturers at stainedglassbiz.com), am waiting for their reply if
it is meant to go outside.
So my question is:  Is this a good idea?  Or is their some reason not
to  make stained glass porch lights?
Thanks in advance
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 10:40:52 1998
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From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 13:42:09 -0500
Message-ID: <199801071837.NAA16042@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

There must be many different interpretations, because under the machine
rolled glass intereprestation of Howard & Elaine, Wissmach would not be
machined rolled, which it is (IMO).

I have always understood machined rolled glass to be sheet no. 1 that day
looks like sheet no. 500 (or whatever amount they roll).  There is no
artistic "instrusion" into the final product.

Hand rolled glass is made a single sheet at a time.

The only machine rolled glass I have seen that even comes close to being as
nice as Bullseye, Uroboros and Yough (stipple and high strike) is some of
Kokomo's line, and they are machine rolled (IMO).

Specturm, Armstrong and Wissmach (while a pleasure to cut) are pure
background glass.  I honestly don't recall any colored glass they made that
is so striking that I would put it in the forefront.  This is because their
stock is two color mixes.

Spectrum does have a few mixes (the amber/red mix) that are quite nice, and
some interesting patterns (the chord), but I still can't recommend it as a
forefront glass.  This, of course, does not apply to any of their
architectural glass or the baroque line.

Again, the above is my opinion and apparently my interpretation.


----------
> From: Howard and Elaine Rubin <Weaver51@teleport.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
> Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 12:15 PM
> 
> Machine made glass............easier to explain handmade glass........
> Bullseye, Uroborus, Yock stipples.
> 
> Spectrum is machine made and automated.
> 
> 
> Machine is measured and "poured by machine" and usually a long strip that
> is cut to length and crated
> ....hand made, people go into a furnace (s) with a ladle, scoop out batch
> glass, add pieces of color, pour into the hopper and work the glass by
hand
> (swirl, mix, confetti, stringer) as it comes out of the hopper and before
> it is rolled out on the platen (in some cases the rolling is also all by
> hand) 
> other cases the roller is power operated.
> 
> MGR was a cheap non-exotic type glass........good for most things and
like
> spectrum, but not as many colors and textures. 
> Nothing wrong with using it,,,,I would not do lamps in it, but if you can
> get REAL cheap do it!
> later, H
> 
> 
> 
> weaver51@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
> enmeshed in the internet
> trapped in the world wide web
> 
> ----
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> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 11:55:35 1998
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X-Path: inspace.net!herba
From: "Herb Adler" <herba@inspace.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: just found pictorial how glass is made site
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:19:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.91937.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Interesting site and sight;
Please be aware of the error in the URL;
It should be:
http://www.ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
Note the dot after www instead of the slash
-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, January 04, 1998 4:37 PM
Subject: just found pictorial how glass is made site


>I know this is boring to all you experts.  But I thought us novices and
>silent lurkers might be interested.
>http://www/ironandglass.com/howglass.htm
>PS  if you are a crafter, check out all the other stuff at this site.
>It is also a free website and I thought I recognized a few names.
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 14:16:35 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 14:15:38 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Web sites
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:14:34 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.121434.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Gloria-

I agree with everything Carol
and Albert have said about a
web site - it's not likely that it
will bring you so much business
overnight you'll be forced to
hire help.  But, it is undoubtedly
an excellent marketing tool and
sometimes in surprising ways!

I have gotten only a handful =

of "long-distance" jobs via our
site, but I am convinced that
about 1 out of every 4 shoppers
(local) who visit us refer to our site
after our consultation and often
that visual reminder gives us the
edge over the competition even
when our prices are higher.

I also do direct-mail marketing
using color postcards - about six
months after folks buy a new home
(over $250,000) they get a postcard
from us which also lists our URL.
We just installed another job several
weeks ago that originated with
the postcard and a web visit so
I know this approach works. (Write
to me direct for more info on the
postcards.)

Lastly, you can win prizes for =

having a web site!  I just won :-)
Peachtree Complete Accounting
Plus from Peak Computing =

Magazine for a contest they had
on marketing your web site.  And
we get a nice little article in the
magazine in a few weeks.  (Two
years ago, we were featured in
a newspaper article as the first
private art gallery in the area with
a web site.)  Who am I to say No
to a little free publicity!

And, of course, the most compelling
reason for getting a web site - it's so
much cheaper than most other =

advertising!  How can you go wrong?
Then use that URL on everything,
cards, letterhead, ads, birth certificates,
everything! You'll be viewed as a real
pacesetter - on the cutting edge of your
business!  (I'm one to talk - I forgot to
add mine to our Yellow Pages ad - oops!)

Back to workbench... still on deadline!  And,
Carol, I haven't forgotten you and will =

write next week!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/ =


P.S. And, yes, we are finally in =

the process of updating the site!



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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 14:29:51 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:27:49 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.122749.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

And then, of course, there are
glasses like the Glashutte =

Lamberts that we're working
with right now that make you
think you've died and gone
to glass heaven!  West German.
Mouthblown. Expensive.  Yum.

Sure wish all our customers would
spring for this stuff!  (I guess at =

$120/sheet wholesale I should say
"stuph"!)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 14:30:34 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hey Howard
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:37:39 +0000
Message-ID: <m0xq3z3-000054C@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> So my question is:  Is this a good idea?  Or is their some reason not
> to  make stained glass porch lights?

Not at all. They've been being made for quite a while ... at least a 
hundred years. The Arts&Crafts movement was pretty big on stained 
glass and sidelights were definitely part of their repertoire. Go 
ahead; you'll enjoy them.

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:33:48 1998
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X-Path: nobleco.net!glass
From: "Wallace, Paul" <glass@nobleco.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:31:48 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.103148.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


  I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to stick
them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
please

Paul
Bumblebee Stained Glass

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:44:20 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: porch lights
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 15:45:47 -0800
Message-ID: <199801072343.PAA21412@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

There is a market for most everything.
Try a few, keep records of ALL costs and time so as to be able to price it.
Keep records and patterns so you can duplicate what you have done. Make
styles that use glass effectively. 
A for instance is if you have 24" x24" spectrum half sheets, set sizes to
cut even into 24". No reason to
make the height 8.5" if 8' will do.
You do not know what will sell 'til you try to sell it. But, can you make
money at it is a whole
'nuther story.
Another beware is using outdoor approved electrical components and who will
do the wiring. In this law suit happy society (we did it to ourselves) any
excuse is good enough. 
I do not wire or adapt or fix or restore any bases (antique or not) for the
public. I have a licensed electrican who I refer to for doing that.

enjoy, H

weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:46:35 1998
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X-Path: water.waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:46:15 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801072346.SAA12340@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

dani wrote,
,
>And then, of course, there are
>glasses like the Glashutte =
>
>Lamberts that we're working
>with right now that make you
>think you've died and gone
>to glass heaven!  West German.
>Mouthblown. Expensive.  Yum.
>
>Sure wish all our customers would
>spring for this stuff!  (I guess at =
>
>$120/sheet wholesale I should say
>"stuph"!)
>
UhOh ...they have been bitten by the Lambert bug...and will
never be the same.

You will never be able to sell a commission again without
trying to steer those clients to the Lambert.  I would say that
all the commissions we are scheduled for so far this year
have some Lambert and two are all Lambert.

I happen to be just nuts about their new colors....and have even taken
to making vases for clients out of the stuff.  To match the glass in
their commission.  Just something we like to do for those people
willing to spend the extra money on that specialty glass.

my best,
pj (who thinks that there needs to be extra hours in the day for email)

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:48:27 1998
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X-Path: usaor.net!3hounds
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1B9D.151735E0"
Subject: RE: Web sites
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:36:32 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.163632.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1B9D.151735E0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



Albert,
Thank you..
The Web is one of my plans for 1998..=20
Other are  tax exemption number, business name, and my membership to the =
Glass Guild.. Would you please tell me the how to the membership and the =
fee.. If you want to do it privately, please  e mail me directly.
thank you
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Albert Lewis [SMTP:alewis@vgernet.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:12 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Web sites

> >would be fearful if the workload became overwhelming and I could not =
=3D
> >fill the orders.

Gloria, Carol's quite right when she points out that a web site is=20
just one arrow in the artist/craftsperson's self-promotional quiver=20
.. don't worry about getting millions of orders; it's a trickle,=20
more like. But as Carol also points out, it's a good way to make your=20
work accessible to the entire world ... well, the percentage that has=20
access to the web, anyway, and that's growing steadily.  So consider=20
doing it for those reasons.

Albert

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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1B9D.1F66FB20"
Subject: RE: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:43:05 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.16435.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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I guess I am very lucky.. I live near Yough and had the opportunity to see them make their glass.. They are very nice people also..
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Howard and Elaine Rubin [SMTP:Weaver51@teleport.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 07, 1998 3:16 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass

Machine made glass............easier to explain handmade glass........
Bullseye, Uroborus, Yock stipples.

Spectrum is machine made and automated.


Machine is measured and "poured by machine" and usually a long strip that
is cut to length and crated
...hand made, people go into a furnace (s) with a ladle, scoop out batch
glass, add pieces of color, pour into the hopper and work the glass by hand
(swirl, mix, confetti, stringer) as it comes out of the hopper and before
it is rolled out on the platen (in some cases the rolling is also all by
hand) 
other cases the roller is power operated.

MGR was a cheap non-exotic type glass........good for most things and like
spectrum, but not as many colors and textures. 
Nothing wrong with using it,,,,I would not do lamps in it, but if you can
get REAL cheap do it!
later, H



weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:49:00 1998
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X-Path: usaor.net!3hounds
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: RE: Hey Howard
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:46:01 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.16461.0>
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Shirley,
I saw their ad there.. Was thinking of the shade (? , really mean =
lighting fixtures) for some indoor lights.. If you receive the info =
could you please forward..=20
Thanks
Gloria=20

-----Original Message-----
From:	Shirley Balloch [SMTP:balloch@netbridge.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 07, 1998 4:34 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Hey Howard

I hope that didn't sound rude.
I have been toying with the idea of making a stained glass porch light.
I found a site that makes a nice fixture (any one else interested check
out manufacturers at stainedglassbiz.com), am waiting for their reply if
it is meant to go outside.
So my question is:  Is this a good idea?  Or is their some reason not
to  make stained glass porch lights?
Thanks in advance
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 15:54:26 1998
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X-Path: water.waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:53:55 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801072353.SAA12674@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dave Rand wrote,
>Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
>List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There are now
>almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  During
>the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, and
>will be on-line searchable.  
>
Happy New Year and  many thanks for the wonderful job
the both of you do with the list. My time flies when your having fun.

We all know that it takes to both of you to make this list work.
Our thanks to you for having the insight to make it work.

Wishes for the best to you and your family in the new year.

my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 16:02:17 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 18:56:42 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.135642.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.103148.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Wallace, Paul wrote:
> 
>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to stick
> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
> please
> 
> Paul
> Bumblebee Stained Glass
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


you can remove the mastic with masic remover, or a sharp razor if it's
hard and crunchy. if you sandblast, you could carve out some cool
designs, they should show up quite well.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 16:07:57 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:08:22 -0800
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RECYCLE them!!!!!
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 16:13:25 1998
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To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed;
Subject: Subscribe
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:12:03 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.8123.0>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hello Fellow artisans;
    I am IN SEARCH of Crystals (not resin), of Swarosky types; in =
Brilliant and ANY shape(s) and shades.
for Inlay of Stained glass windows/panels.
Warmest Regards & Thanks in Advance.
live4games@worldnet.att.net=20
PS: Looking for "Bulk" sales.

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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hello Fellow =
artisans;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I am =
IN SEARCH of=20
Crystals (not resin), of Swarosky types; in Brilliant and ANY shape(s) =
and=20
shades.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>for Inlay of Stained =
glass=20
windows/panels.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Warmest Regards &amp; =
Thanks in=20
Advance.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:live4games@worldnet.att.net">live4games@worldnet.att.net</=
A>=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>PS: Looking for =
&quot;Bulk&quot;=20
sales.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 16:14:49 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 16:14:26 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: system3.com!owensjp
From: James Owens <owensjp@system3.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 19:13:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.141358.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.103148.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi!  I am new to this list and, as a matter of fact, new to computers and the
Internet in general, so please bear with me if I make mistakes.  I learned to do
stained glass pieces 17 years ago from a night school class.  I proceeded to
teach my husband how to do stained glass, and he really got into it.  I have
three sons, all of whom have learned how to do stained glass as well.  My
husband and I have done about five large pieces over the years as well as many
smaller ones.  Currently we are working on our largest project yet, a two-panel
waterfall/nature scene roughly 24' x 48' total.

While I have never done this myself, a currently popular use of stained glass
are mosaic panels and garden bricks for pathways.  Your glass sounds thick
enough to be used for this kind of project depending on the weather conditions
in your area., expecially the pathway bricks.  These are pieces of cut, colored
glass set into concrete forms in patterns and designs to brighten the garden.
You might consider looking into this type of usage.  Hope this helps.

Merry

Wallace, Paul wrote:

>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to stick
> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
> please
>
> Paul
> Bumblebee Stained Glass
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 16:17:32 1998
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X-Path: az.stratus.com!charlie
From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed,  7 Jan 98 17:16:37 -0700
Message-ID: <m0xq5eJ-000LiCC@why.az.stratus.com>
References: <<1998Jan7.103148.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Customer Assistance Center, Stratus Computer, Inc.
Precedence: bulk

You wrote:
> I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to stick
> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
> please

part of a floor
grease splash guard behind a stove or kitchen sink
dining table top
cut in 4" strips and used as a baseboard at the floor/wall joint
cut in 4" squares, bevel edges slightly, use as coasters
cut in 8" squares, use as trivets (heat resistant?)
tiling under/behind a wood stove/heater
fireplace hearth/mantle tiling (outside the firebox)

---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Phoenix, AZ
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 17:17:05 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:16:26 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: mail.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:13:01 +0000
Message-ID: <199801080115.BAA13552@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Dawn,

Good Heavens!! What a memory!! I thought everyone had long since 
forgotten.....
I have been "lurking" in my own quiet little corner for a while, 
trying to catch up on domestic chores (still have ironing to do from 
last April!!), house maintenance, income tax returns (has to arrive 
at the Tax Office before 31 January, or an automatic fine , etc...); 
preparing new courses for February; my mother-in-law has been poorly 
over Christmas, so I spent some time with her doing her Christmas 
cooking; my sister-in-law has inherited my old 286 computer (the one 
rescued from a dumpster) and I have been trying to find a printer for 
her. And so on, and so on. I STILL haven't sent out all my Christmas 
cards/letters  :-<

Yes, I turned up in my "best bib 'n tucker" last Sunday; the little  
widow of the deceased Minister having phoned me at least 3 times to 
ask/remind me to be there. She suffered 2 heart attacks during 
Autumn, so people were getting worried (She is 87, bless her, and 
called Enid). 

The idea of doing the casing in wrought iron, was finally abandoned, 
because the blacksmith I employed, took off up North (of UK) to show 
his shire horses and didn't keep the dead-lines he promised (even 
more urgently required after the old girl's SECOND heart attack!!)
Back to wood.
An old retired carpenter from the Congregation was finally wheeled 
out and press-ganged by the Church Elders to construct  wall-mounted 
oak cabinets to house the stained glass.  A lighting engineer was 
also wormed out from the Congregation and equally press-ganged into  
creating the necessary hardware arrangements for back-lighting the 
panels according to my guide lines. I must say, both men did a 
fabulous job.  The large wooden oak Cross already mounted on the wall 
at the Altar, is a simple cross, but excellently crafted. The 
Minister whom my glass was to commemorate,  had himself actually made 
this Cross some 40 years ago when he first took over the Ministry of 
this particular Church. Carpentry and wood-working was his life-long 
hobby (He was called Ernest, by the way. So picture it: these two 
dears, Ernest and Enid....   ;-)   )

So the carpenter made these oak cabinets to match the Cross. and did 
it exceedingly well. However, he also managed to crack the glass 
twice!!
Repair or replace???
Replace would take longer and  little Enid  might get another heart 
attack if she knew about it. So "repair" was decided. Under cover of 
darkness, I loaded my car with repair kits and drove off to his cold 
wood-working shed about 15 miles away - TWICE!
One of the repairs  is not too bad, but the second one - although 
necessary, breaks the aesthetic line to me just that bit too much.  
Nobody has noticed the illogical lead-line. But I have and I have 
even had night-mare dreams about it. One day I will have to pull in 
the panel to my workshop and replace the whole piece of offending 
glass. But I dare not do it quite yet.....

Last Sunday was the first time I myself saw both panels mounted  on 
the wall in the Church with the Cross in the middle and the 
back-lighting in full flow. The impact totally threw me. I arrived to 
the Church  on time (pouring down with rain and the roads were 
flooded) and met up with little pint-sized Enid and her sons, 
daughters and myriads of grand-children, having travelled from all 
corners of UK for the occasion.  There were cameras flashing 
everywhere. Seats had been specially reserved for The Family and (to 
my surprise) for me, right up at the front of the Church.  Little 
Enid tucked her arm under mine and so I escorted this little person 
to her seat. The Chruch was absolutely packed full. I thought this 
was going to be an ordinary Sunday Service with perhaps a little 
mention/ a little blessing  or such similar of the panels.  Not so. 
The entire Service was dedicated to the idea of the Man (i.e. Ernest 
- the deceased Minister) and my stained glass and my interpretation 
of the commission they had given me. At the request earlier on last 
autumn of the Church Elders, I had put down in writing my own 
impressions of Ernest post-humously and how my interpretations were 
translated into stained glass.  I gave them about 3 type-written 
pages from which I thought they might select the odd thing or two. 
They didn't .
 David, his oldest son and a professor at Cambridge 
University, read the Dedication and read out my entire notes. It was 
almost embarrassing. Nevertheless, it was also very moving. 
During  last prayers, the (new) Minister made a point of telling the 
Congration that THIS time, not to shut their eyes, but to look at the 
panels and meditate on them.
I had not myself been quite been prepared for the impact, and never 
mind the impact my glass had on this community.
After the Service, there was a reception during which I had to shake 
a few hundred hands. Little Enid didn't let me out of her 
eye-sight... 

But what came across again and again from the Congregation was 
interesting. Stained glass or  some other form of commemoration had 
actually been put to the vote amongst the entire congregation. Many 
of them had voted against; stained glass was not "Their Sort of 
Thing", it didn't quite "sit" right with a United Reform Church; it 
was too architectural, too much tied up with the building itself, too 
much of "saints, cherubs and angels" for their particular philosophy.
Enid alone forced through the decision, because her dear beloved 
Ernest had expressed such deep admiration for the craftmanship 
required for stained glass (he was amateur accomplished carpenter - 
remember!). I only found out that little nugget out last Sunday... So 
I also had to shake the hands of those that had initially voted 
against, who now told me  I had got it "just right".
 Job Satisfaction!!??
 Wow!!!!
Cameras flashed, local press was there, ecclesiastical press was 
there and so on. I had left my own camera gear at home and still have 
to go back and take my own photographs....
An enormous bunch of flowers is now dominating my sitting-room, so 
large I could hardly get it into my car (or out of it).
Oh yes, the Heathen Elisabeth took Holy Communion for the first time 
in 25 years. It just somehow felt right at the time.
I STILL don't like what happens in the World under the guise of 
Christianity or Religion, and I STILL don't want any part of it.....
But I am so glad I managed to bring glass, colour and light into yet 
another little corner of the Globe......

Back to ironing.....(sigh)
Happy New Year to ALL of you.!!
(separate replies are still brewing.... patience..??)
(UK Bunginians:  95 per cent of photocopying completed, a few more 
pages and then send-off)
 Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK




Dawn wrote  (and quoted):
 >Best Bib and Tucker folks;  the 
heathen Elisabeth is going to >Church!!! (Watch out for the Viking 
horns...)

Okay Elisabeth, where are you?  We're all waiting to hear how the dedicat=
ion ceremony went.....  Any flashes of lightning, earth shaking, etc?

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 17:17:10 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:16:13 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: mail.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Web sites
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 02:13:01 +0000
Message-ID: <199801080115.BAA13536@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Gloria,

I use my web-site  as a marketing tool (so far). It has been up 
and running now since early 1996, but although I have had enquiries, 
I have not yet "sold" through the Net. I think it was Carol who said 
that she used it as an "extended portfolio". That is how I look at it 
myself.  Although the Internet here in UK is only just NOW beginning 
to get a grip and starting a real growth, it's an easy, quick and 
convenient way for any customer, an architect , say,  to get a quick 
look at your style at any time of day and night to decide whether 
s/he likes your particular way of doing things. Don't expect a FLOOD 
of orders, just because you have a WEB-site.
my 2 cents worth
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

>I have been wondering if anyone is bringing in an income from their Web =
>sites.. I have noticed some are nice  photos of their work and an e mail =
>address is attached.. Another version is photos with  prices and a =
>shopping cart to go with it.. Have been considering  advertising but =
>would be fearful if the workload became overwhelming and I could not =
>fill the orders.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 17:28:25 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 17:27:50 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: sympatico.ca!arthurs.and.willis
From: Sandra Willis <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Thanks for your table suggestions.
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 20:21:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.152127.0>
References: <<3.0.1.32.19980106133343.006b142c@pop.netrox.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Everyone and Happy New Year,

Got a lot of good suggestions for the light table - I'll investigate the
quarter inch plate glass.  I like the suggestions of keeping the light a
little muted so we'll play with that as well.

Took a class in ergonomics as part of my master's and my project was to
design my stained glass room.  I agree that just below elbow height
should work best (at least that's what all the studies say).  Looking
forward to having a nice studio that can handle a variety of tasks.

Thanks everyone for their suggestions.

Sandy
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 18:40:51 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:38:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.163845.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Paul-

How about using the glass tiles
for a bathroom floor?  Or lining
the bottom of a pond in a water
garden.  Or set them in a table
top.  Or use as a wide border in
a glass mosaic.  Or, or.... ?

;-)

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 18:40:55 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 18:39:54 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 21:38:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.163837.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi pj-

Nice idea with the vases!  It's
just that kind of thing that makes
for repeat business, and it's sure
a lot nicer (and more appropriate)
than a fruit basket!  And, yes, I
think we have been bitten by the
Lambert's bug - we'll see how it
goes after we start building tonight!
Some of the glass is kind of thick,
especially since we're using tons
of flash.  =


Cheers!

Dani
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 19:40:22 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:39:55 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: studio thesis
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:33:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.113332.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

you'll have to share that part of your master's with bungi when you finish

Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	Sandra Willis [SMTP:arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 07, 1998 5:21 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Thanks for your table suggestions.

Hi Everyone and Happy New Year,

Got a lot of good suggestions for the light table - I'll investigate the
quarter inch plate glass.  I like the suggestions of keeping the light a
little muted so we'll play with that as well.

Took a class in ergonomics as part of my master's and my project was to
design my stained glass room.  I agree that just below elbow height
should work best (at least that's what all the studies say).  Looking
forward to having a nice studio that can handle a variety of tasks.

Thanks everyone for their suggestions.

Sandy
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`
end

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 19:41:18 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:40:50 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE:Black Glass Tiles
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 19:32:01 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.11321.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


My vote goes more with Mike's idea of sandblasting designs in them, they 
would be phenomenal to sandblast and face a fireplace with, the other ideas 
merely recycle them, this transforms them.
Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: HELP


  I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to 
stick
them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
please

Paul
Bumblebee Stained Glass

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*`P`--/TW``!<(0``
`
end

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 20:06:21 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 7 Jan 1998 20:05:35 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: voicenet.com!hilary
From: "Hilary A. Bobker" <hilary@voicenet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:06:06 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.1866.0>
References: <<m0xpEfN-0000aOC@daver.bungi.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: HABit Fashion Services
Precedence: bulk

Dear Dave and Glenna,

Please let me add my thanks for your efforts in running this list!!!

Hilary
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 20:08:13 1998
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X-Path: gr.cns.net!pristine
From: mcFrenzy <pristine@gr.cns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 23:07:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.18738.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.11321.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Pristine Glass Co.
Precedence: bulk

I bet the back is ribbed too!
My dream is to accumulate enough to do a storefront with.
It's rare and probably very valuable to some. I think it was called
"carrera". Makes a great table top. one could use gold leaf, glue
chipping!!!, lustres, enamels. Try slumping it. make a bowl. test it's
fusibility. 

> From:   Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
> Sent:   Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
> To:     glass@bungi.com
> Subject:        Re: HELP
> 
>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to
> stick
> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
> please
> 
> Paul
> Bumblebee Stained Glass
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 20:38:30 1998
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From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Internet Message 
Date: Wed,  7 Jan 1998 23:32:27, -0500
Message-ID: <199801080432.XAA12974@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dave Rand wrote,
>Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained 
Glass
>List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There 
are now
>almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  
During
>the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, 
and
>will be on-line searchable. 

All this and improvements coming too! Almost 400 readers sounds good 
but 800 would be better. What a base of knowledge that would be. Sooo,
 I went out and recruted a new member today and have a couple more in 
mind. With some help the idea of doubling in size is a very realistic 
one. Any takers?
Recruter, bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working 
with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 21:21:36 1998
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From: Beveler 4 <Beveler4@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Hey Howard
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:20:00 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.5200.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I don't see a problem with outside porch lights in stained glass I have made
many panels for the old style gas lights for homes usually a seasonal theme
such as xmas,spring etc.They were a very popular item. I just quit making them
because I moved away from the city.Beveler4(STAN)
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 21:35:16 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 00:33:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.193356.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Congratulations, Elisabeth!  Thanks
for sharing with us.  (I knew your future
held something GREAT to replace the
lack of Christmas goose!)

Happy and Prosperous New Year!

Dani Greer
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 22:07:07 1998
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X-Path: softcom.net!mthaxton
From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:05:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.14556.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

When I first started stained glass in 1979, all I ever used was Fisher and
Desag`,  couldn't get me to use anything else.  It's nice to see "others"
with the same pallet!  Never have physically seen Lamberts glass but when I
do I will be in the poor house, I'm sure!

Melissa


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael J. Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: INTERNET:glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass


>And then, of course, there are
>glasses like the Glashutte =
>
>Lamberts that we're working
>with right now that make you
>think you've died and gone
>to glass heaven!  West German.
>Mouthblown. Expensive.  Yum.
>
>Sure wish all our customers would
>spring for this stuff!  (I guess at =
>
>$120/sheet wholesale I should say
>"stuph"!)
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 22:17:19 1998
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X-Path: softcom.net!mthaxton
From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: HELP
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:16:49 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.141649.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I hope you mean 24 inch by 48 inch!  I looked at those measurments and
almost fainted when you said it is 2 panels...

-----Original Message-----
From: James Owens <owensjp@system3.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: HELP


>Hi!  I am new to this list and, as a matter of fact, new to computers and
the
>Internet in general, so please bear with me if I make mistakes.  I learned
to do
>stained glass pieces 17 years ago from a night school class.  I proceeded
to
>teach my husband how to do stained glass, and he really got into it.  I
have
>three sons, all of whom have learned how to do stained glass as well.  My
>husband and I have done about five large pieces over the years as well as
many
>smaller ones.  Currently we are working on our largest project yet, a
two-panel
>waterfall/nature scene roughly 24' x 48' total.
>
>While I have never done this myself, a currently popular use of stained
glass
>are mosaic panels and garden bricks for pathways.  Your glass sounds thick
>enough to be used for this kind of project depending on the weather
conditions
>in your area., expecially the pathway bricks.  These are pieces of cut,
colored
>glass set into concrete forms in patterns and designs to brighten the
garden.
>You might consider looking into this type of usage.  Hope this helps.
>
>Merry
>
>Wallace, Paul wrote:
>
>>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
>> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
>> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
>> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
>> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy
black
>> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to
stick
>> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
>> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
>> please
>>
>> Paul
>> Bumblebee Stained Glass
>>
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 22:21:13 1998
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X-Path: softcom.net!mthaxton
From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:20:47 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.142047.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Ya, Glenna you are a very pretty lady.  great works too!
Melissa

-----Original Message-----
From: Myrddn <exotic@mail.lobo.net>
To: Dave Rand <dlr@bungi.com>
Date: Monday, January 05, 1998 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Anniversary of the Stained Glass List


>Loved seeing a picture of what another Bungian looks like.  Loved Glenna
>"provoked" also.
>
>Especially her work. Makes me want to keep on trucking
>
>On  5 Jan 98, Dave Rand
>wrote:
>
>> Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained Glass
>> List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There are
now
>> almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.  During
the
>> coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format, and will
be
>> on-line searchable.
>>
>> If you have some images of your projects you would like to see on the
>> web, please drop me (dlr@bungi.com) mail, and we can work out how to
>> get them up for you.  I've also posted a recent picture of Glenna,
>> and some of her latest projects at http://www.bungi.com/glass/glenna/
>>
>> Thanks to my wonderful wife for administering this list, and thank
>> you all for sharing your insightful comments during the past years.
>> Happy new year to all!
>>
>> Dave Rand
>>
>> --
>> Dave Rand
>> dlr@bungi.com
>> http://www.bungi.com
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>Myrddn
>----
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>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Wed Jan  7 22:24:25 1998
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From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Hey Howard
Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:23:56 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.142356.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

If you can sell'em just do it.  If you make them with foil I would think
that they would be sturdy enough to hold up to the elements.  Go for it.
Melissa

-----Original Message-----
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 10:59 AM
Subject: Hey Howard


>I hope that didn't sound rude.
>I have been toying with the idea of making a stained glass porch light.
>I found a site that makes a nice fixture (any one else interested check
>out manufacturers at stainedglassbiz.com), am waiting for their reply if
>it is meant to go outside.
>So my question is:  Is this a good idea?  Or is their some reason not
>to  make stained glass porch lights?
>Thanks in advance
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 03:17:42 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Internet Message 
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:24:05 +0000
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>  I went out and recruted a new member today and have a couple more in 
> mind. With some help the idea of doubling in size is a very realistic 
> one. Any takers?

Yes, I'm constantly mentioning the bungi list in messages online and 
in print in the Guild's newsletter. I'm not sure how much help that 
is, but it's something. <s> Actually, I guess that's the way it 
should work: if everyone here lets everyone else they know who works 
with glass know about the helpfulness of this group of people, the 
number of people participating just has to grow.

Albert

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 03:17:46 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: RE: Web sites
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 06:24:05 +0000
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> The Web is one of my plans for 1998..=20
> Other are  tax exemption number, business name, and my membership to the =
> Glass Guild.. Would you please tell me the how to the membership and the =
> fee.. If you want to do it privately, please  e mail me directly.

The information's right there on bungi.com ... just go 
http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/benefits.htm if you want to know 
what the benefits of membership in the Guild are. We'd be glad to 
have you join.  Good luck with your other resolutions; it sounds like 
you've decided to become more "professional" in your approach to 
glass and business.

Albert Lewis, Exec. Dir.
International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
A 501(c)(6) not-for-profit association
54 Cherry St., PO Box 1809, North Adams MA 01247-1809
(413) 663-5512  Fax: (413) 663-7167
_____________________________________________
Home page     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
Members' work http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/links.htm
Sources Guide http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/guide.htm
Guild Library http://www.aiap.com/amazon/



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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 03:57:30 1998
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X-Path: emwv.com!katglass
From: Shane Hupp <katglass@emwv.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Change address
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 07:00:41 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan7.23041.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Hi Glenna,

Please change my e-mail address to katglass@emwv.com from
hupp@citynet.net. I'm changing servers.

Thanks,

Kathy
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 04:51:46 1998
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From: "Michael Minchelli" <lsg@jerseycape.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bevel overlay
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 07:22:43 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.22243.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You can cut the blue glass to match the size of the bevel. Then use either
3/8" or 1/2" foil, hold the two pieces together and foil them as one piece.
I do it often myself. You can see some wonderful plating done by Glassmith
Studio's, their books are easily found.
Michael


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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 06:00:56 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Swarovski crystals sources
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 08:58:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.35846.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Message text written by MiChea`l McClendon
>Hello Fellow artisans;
    I am IN SEARCH of Crystals (not resin), of Swarosky types; in =3D
Brilliant and ANY shape(s) and shades.
for Inlay of Stained glass windows/panels.
Warmest Regards & Thanks in Advance.
PS: Looking for "Bulk" sales.<

Where are you located?  Can you purchase wholesale?
I know Glass Emporium (North Wales, PA distributor for
wholesale purchase only) has Swarovski crystals in the
following shapes: octagon, heart, teardrop, pear, star,
snoflake, ball and spear.

Rainbow Art Glass/Studio J (Wall, NJ both retail & wholesale)
has Swarovski Strass crystals in the following shapes:
snoflake, heart, ball, bell, teardrop, star, octagon, and
frosted cross.

Warner-Crivellaro (Allentown, PA retail) has "Austrian Crystals"
which I believe are the same as the Swarovski crystals, available
in the following shapes: octagon, heart, snowflake, teardrop
and star.

Email if you need more info about any of these sources.
Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 06:15:21 1998
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X-Path: sympatico.ca!arthurs.and.willis
From: Sandra Willis <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 09:08:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.488.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.113332.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenn Spicer wrote:
> 
> you'll have to share that part of your master's with bungi when you finish
> 
> Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada


Hi Glenn,

I certainly don't have a problem with sharing the thesis - it wasn't
really a thesis, just a report for one of my classes.  It's about 17
pages long and deals with me trying to figure out the best layout for my
hobby room based on ergonomic principles.  I completed the report in
1996 and those of you that choose to read it will notice that I said I
planned to complete the room by October 1996 - ah, procrastination... My
husband wants to have it done by February 1998 - he's been working on
the actual design (how the joints go together, how to make the shelving
units, etc., before we go out and make it).

It's in Microsoft Word for 95 but I can probably convert it to other
types of documents if people are interested.  Basically I came out with
the cutting surface should be just below elbow height, the grinding
surface should be just above and the soldering surface should also be
just above elbow height - whether this works in practice, we'll see.  I
have one table against the wall for my cutting and grinding and then I
have another table sort of out in the middle of the room that is 3' wide
and 6' long for my soldering.

If anyone would like me to send them a copy I can, or I can post
chapters on the newgroup. Whatever the group would like.

Sandy
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 07:14:42 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:04:52 -0500
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Michael J. Greer wrote:
> 
> Hi pj-
> 
> Nice idea with the vases!  It's
> just that kind of thing that makes
> for repeat business, and it's sure
> a lot nicer (and more appropriate)
> than a fruit basket!  And, yes, I
> think we have been bitten by the
> Lambert's bug - we'll see how it
> goes after we start building tonight!
> Some of the glass is kind of thick,
> especially since we're using tons
> of flash.  =
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> Dani
> ----
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another really nice glass is Fremont (i bielve that's right). the colors
are really cool at it comes in opaque colors. but the pricing structure
is about the same.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 07:15:34 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:08:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.5836.0>
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Glenn Spicer wrote:
> 
> My vote goes more with Mike's idea of sandblasting designs in them, they
> would be phenomenal to sandblast and face a fireplace with, the other ideas
> merely recycle them, this transforms them.
> Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:   Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
> Sent:   Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
> To:     glass@bungi.com
> Subject:        Re: HELP
> 
>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy black
> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to
> stick
> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
> please
> 
> Paul
> Bumblebee Stained Glass
> 
> ----
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> 
>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>                Encoding: x-uuencode
> 
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and the other thing is that this thickness goes really well with door
mirrors (height wise). and black and mirror usaully go together.

some other uses:

maybe cut them and use them for coasters, paint palettes (my mother uses
a sheet of glasss). or maybe a cutting board (carefully used), if you
chamfer the corners (bevel it), you could use it as tile for somthing.
maybe sleek black plates if you have a large kiln. or a really ugly wind
chime.. :)

---Mike Savad

-- 
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 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 07:16:52 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Internet Message
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:10:14 -0500
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BOB DUCHESNEAU wrote:
> 
> Dave Rand wrote,
> >Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained
> Glass
> >List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There
> are now
> >almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.
> During
> >the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format,
> and
> >will be on-line searchable.
> 
> All this and improvements coming too! Almost 400 readers sounds good
> but 800 would be better. What a base of knowledge that would be. Sooo,
>  I went out and recruted a new member today and have a couple more in
> mind. With some help the idea of doubling in size is a very realistic
> one. Any takers?
> Recruter, bob
> 
> ____
> Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working
> with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road,
> Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
> Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


well, whoever comes my way, i usually bring them here. i don't know
though what the ratio is: people hitting my page to people joing bungi.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 07:20:46 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:14:53 -0500
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Melissa Thaxton wrote:
> 
> When I first started stained glass in 1979, all I ever used was Fisher and
> Desag`,  couldn't get me to use anything else.  It's nice to see "others"
> with the same pallet!  Never have physically seen Lamberts glass but when I
> do I will be in the poor house, I'm sure!
> 
> Melissa
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael J. Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
> To: INTERNET:glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
> Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
> 
> >And then, of course, there are
> >glasses like the Glashutte =
> >
> >Lamberts that we're working
> >with right now that make you
> >think you've died and gone
> >to glass heaven!  West German.
> >Mouthblown. Expensive.  Yum.
> >
> >Sure wish all our customers would
> >spring for this stuff!  (I guess at =
> >
> >$120/sheet wholesale I should say
> >"stuph"!)
> >
> >Best regards,
> >
> >Dani Greer
> >Greer Gallery & Studios
> >http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
> >----
> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
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oh then go to http://www.lamberts.de/elambhom.htm they have most of
their colors online. it looks alot nicer in person of course, until you
see the price attached.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 08:48:17 1998
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 11:43:01 EST
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Elisabeth:  What fun! what pleasure!  what satisfaction! when reading any of
your input into bungi.  Whether sharing the experience of you and Toby
frolicking in the fields by your home, or,  traveling to Chartres to view the
splendor of stained glass, or, reading your ideas on "my humble
trade".......you manage to write so that I feel, see, and share, these
marvelous places and the things you write about. 
     I thoroughly enjoyed the dedication ceremony and the delightful people
who made it all possible (via your description)......
      May we continue to be a part  of your "happenings"  when we, ourselves,
cannot be there, and to  share your thoughts on things that are meaningful to
you...stained glass, or not.          
                           Sincerely, Lavergne
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 09:57:25 1998
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 09:54:41 -0800
Message-ID: <199801081754.JAA08393@norm.island.net>
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>Last Sunday was the first time I myself saw both panels mounted  on 
>the wall in the Church with the Cross in the middle and the 
>back-lighting in full flow. The impact totally threw me. I arrived to 

Ah Elisabeth, what a moment that must have been for you...I remember how you
laboured over possible mounting systems for these panels last year.  I
remember when you let us know the woman had her second heart attack and that
the rush was on.  And now to hear of the breaks...we've all been in this
along with you to some extent.

>I had put down in writing my own impressions of Ernest post-humously and
how my interpretations were translated into stained glass.  I gave them
about 3 type-written >pages ... read out my entire notes. It was 
>almost embarrassing. Nevertheless, it was also very moving. 

Elisabeth, how wonderful.  This to my mind is truly what stained glass is
about...or at least why I do it...to make an impact on the viewer and also
to tell a story, as well as providing something nice to look at.

I've recently come to a realization that although I've never done a church
panel, many of my pieces are very spiritual.  You must be feeling so honored
(at a deep, rather than publicity level) to have made such an ongoing impact
on the congregation.

>During  last prayers, the (new) Minister made a point of telling the 
>Congration that THIS time, not to shut their eyes, but to look at the 
>panels and meditate on them.

Again, I have to ask...Isn't this why stained glass panels were originally
put into churches...so the congregation could learn from the story or
message within them?

All the best

Carol

PS Tail wags from Kayla to Toby!

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 10:10:17 1998
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Josh Simpson-Glass Artist
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 13:11:00 -0500
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I want to share this with my friends at bungi. There is an article in =
today's Virginia Pilot about Josh Simpson. He is in Portsmouth, VA with =
some of his work on display. The newspaper didn't do his work justice. =
so, i looked him up on the web. Beautiful, I will have to make a point =
of viewing his work personally while it is here at the Arts Center. If =
you are into glass blowing and paperweights, glass blown into a copper =
basket, (or even if you just like beauty) check him out at:=20

http://www.megaplanet.com/index.html

Oh to be able to perfect an art the way he has.....sigh.....

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 13:12:14 1998
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Josh Simpson-Glass Artist
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 16:10:43 -0500
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Dear Linda,

Not to take away anything from Josh Simpson, but if you are impressed by
his work, then why not try your hand at it.  I don't believe I have ever
seen anything done so far that cannot be duplicated or perfected.

I tell all of our students that there is not one thing that Tiffany ever
did in stained glass that the students cannot do also - it is a matter of
setting one's mind to it and accomplishing it.  And there are so many more
possibilities today than there were back then.  The same with Josh - he had
to start somewhere.

Yes, it will take time.  Yes, it will take money.  But where there is a
will, there is a way.  I say "go for it."

----------
> From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
> To: 'glass@bungi.com'
> Subject: Josh Simpson-Glass Artist
> Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 1:11 PM
> 

----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 13:56:16 1998
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From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: half round bevels
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 16:44:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.84422.0>
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Organization: Cox's Mower Service
Precedence: bulk

I have a pattern that calls for 1/2 round bevels (half a circle) 4". The
pattern book seems to imply this should be a stock item. I've seen VERY
few 1/2 rounds in my travels, and have been thru a number of catalogs.
Other than custom, any one know who might stock these??

--
'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
others?'"Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 14:14:04 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Josh Simpson-Glass Artist
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:14:50 -0800
Message-ID: <199801082212.OAA27015@mail1.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Seconded..............IMHO, you will never reach your best piece if you
keep working at it.

Normal to make mistakes, and one continues to do so.....trick is make
different ones each time and to learn from the prior ones.

I am my harshest critic.......I can ALWAYS improve the shade. Another
reason to not force your self into a position where you have to do the
CHEAPEST work to compete. Some can and will do the same type piece for
less. Do it well and then do it better. 
I have gotten in trouble before when I have suggested that glass is not for
the financially challenged!
When a student has made a major effort to complain on an on-going basis
about the costs, I have suggested weaving beach grass instead of a glass
course and pointed out the supply of grass is still free!

Over years I have come to grips with the thought that NOT everyone must
like me!

before  I get too far off the subject (what ever it was), enjoy, H


weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 14:31:25 1998
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: half round bevels
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 14:29:20 -0800
Message-ID: <199801082229.OAA28801@norm.island.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>I have a pattern that calls for 1/2 round bevels (half a circle) 4". The
>pattern book seems to imply this should be a stock item. I've seen VERY
>few 1/2 rounds in my travels, and have been thru a number of catalogs.
>Other than custom, any one know who might stock these??
>

It's relatively easy to make your own...just score across a 4" bevel as if
you're cutting flat glass (don't forget to go across the angled parts also),
and VOILA, you have half bevels...experiment also...what about 1/3 of a 4"
bevel...they can look great in the right piece.

Carol Swann
Synergy Glass & Creative

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 15:45:59 1998
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From: "Byron Wells" <byronw@cyberramp.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: half round bevels
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 17:44:40 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.114440.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Hi Carl...

Most any dealer should be able to get them for you.... If not try mail
order... They do indeed make them as regular stock as I just bought a box
from one of my wholesalers last month for a panel I was working on...

Byron...
-----Original Message-----
From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 3:59 PM
Subject: half round bevels


>I have a pattern that calls for 1/2 round bevels (half a circle) 4". The
>pattern book seems to imply this should be a stock item. I've seen VERY
>few 1/2 rounds in my travels, and have been thru a number of catalogs.
>Other than custom, any one know who might stock these??
>
>--
>'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
>altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
>most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
>others?'"Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
>
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 16:00:45 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: half round bevels
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 18:55:08 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.23558.0>
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I have bought them but it's been a couple of years ago.  I can narrow it down
to Warner-Crivellero, Delphi, or Glass Crafters.  Hope this helps.  Whispy
Blu@aol.com <Lu Ann> <LElsbury>
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 16:37:53 1998
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X-Path: netcom.ca!mfig
From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:31:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.143147.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I think what you've got isn't really glass but a ceramic/glass product
called vitrolite that was very popular in the late fifties.
-----Original Message-----
From: mcFrenzy <pristine@gr.cns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: January 7, 1998 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles


>I bet the back is ribbed too!
>My dream is to accumulate enough to do a storefront with.
>It's rare and probably very valuable to some. I think it was called
>"carrera". Makes a great table top. one could use gold leaf, glue
>chipping!!!, lustres, enamels. Try slumping it. make a bowl. test it's
>fusibility.
>
>> From:   Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
>> Sent:   Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
>> To:     glass@bungi.com
>> Subject:        Re: HELP
>>
>>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
>> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding the
>> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us the
>> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of very
>> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy
black
>> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used to
>> stick
>> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't resist a
>> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  Suggestions
>> please
>>
>> Paul
>> Bumblebee Stained Glass
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 16:37:57 1998
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From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Internet Message
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 19:33:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.143357.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I do a newsletter called the FigLeafNet, by e-mail once every three weeks,
and today I plugged the bungi group in it. So hope that helps.
-----Original Message-----
From: M. Savad <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: January 8, 1998 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Internet Message


>BOB DUCHESNEAU wrote:
>>
>> Dave Rand wrote,
>> >Feburary 19 will mark the start of the third year of the Stained
>> Glass
>> >List.  During that time there have been a number of changes.  There
>> are now
>> >almost 400 readers of the list, up from 5 or so in Febuary, 1995.
>> During
>> >the coming year, the archives will be put into a more useful format,
>> and
>> >will be on-line searchable.
>>
>> All this and improvements coming too! Almost 400 readers sounds good
>> but 800 would be better. What a base of knowledge that would be. Sooo,
>>  I went out and recruted a new member today and have a couple more in
>> mind. With some help the idea of doubling in size is a very realistic
>> one. Any takers?
>> Recruter, bob
>>
>> ____
>> Bob Duchesneau (You've got to be smarter than the gear you're working
>> with.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road,
>> Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
>> Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>well, whoever comes my way, i usually bring them here. i don't know
>though what the ratio is: people hitting my page to people joing bungi.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 17:31:11 1998
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X-Path: erols.com!jkeane
From: Hee Sun Stained Glass <jkeane@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Neat site that I found
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:30:12 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980108203012.0069db64@pop.erols.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Just thought I'd share with everyone an interesting site that I found
while exploring a little tonight.  It's got some really great shots of 
some beautiful windows.


Robert &  Jeanne Keane
Hee Sun Stained Glass 
"Bestow Pleasure"
P.O. Box 322	
Glyndon, MD 21071
410-833-3007

jkeane@erols.com

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 17:31:12 1998
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X-Path: earthlink.net!jeksac
From: John Keller <jeksac@earthlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 19:34:37 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.133437.0>
References: <<1998Jan8.488.0>>
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Sandy,
one way or another, i'd sure like to read it.  snail mail:
	linn keller
	r.r.3, box 51
	los fresnos, tx  78566
or fax, if that's easier:  956/430-8502
let me know cost - i'll get it to you asap.
thanks!!!
linn

Sandra Willis wrote:
> 
> Glenn Spicer wrote:
> >
> > you'll have to share that part of your master's with bungi when you finish
> >
> > Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
> 
> Hi Glenn,
> 
> I certainly don't have a problem with sharing the thesis - it wasn't
> really a thesis, just a report for one of my classes.  It's about 17
> pages long and deals with me trying to figure out the best layout for my
> hobby room based on ergonomic principles.  I completed the report in
> 1996 and those of you that choose to read it will notice that I said I
> planned to complete the room by October 1996 - ah, procrastination... My
> husband wants to have it done by February 1998 - he's been working on
> the actual design (how the joints go together, how to make the shelving
> units, etc., before we go out and make it).
> 
> It's in Microsoft Word for 95 but I can probably convert it to other
> types of documents if people are interested.  Basically I came out with
> the cutting surface should be just below elbow height, the grinding
> surface should be just above and the soldering surface should also be
> just above elbow height - whether this works in practice, we'll see.  I
> have one table against the wall for my cutting and grinding and then I
> have another table sort of out in the middle of the room that is 3' wide
> and 6' long for my soldering.
> 
> If anyone would like me to send them a copy I can, or I can post
> chapters on the newgroup. Whatever the group would like.
> 
> Sandy
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 17:41:56 1998
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From: Hee Sun Stained Glass <jkeane@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Neat site that I found
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 20:41:18 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980108204118.0069cd58@pop.erols.com>
References: <<3.0.1.32.19980108203012.0069db64@pop.erols.com>>
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At 08:30 PM 1/8/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Just thought I'd share with everyone an interesting site that I found
>while exploring a little tonight.  It's got some really great shots of 
>some beautiful windows.
>
>
>Robert &  Jeanne Keane
>Hee Sun Stained Glass 
>"Bestow Pleasure"
>P.O. Box 322	
>Glyndon, MD 21071
>410-833-3007
>
>jkeane@erols.com
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
Sorry, forgot the url here it is

http://homepages.enterprise.net/ahpbartlettco/stmarys/
Robert &  Jeanne Keane
Hee Sun Stained Glass 
"Bestow Pleasure"
P.O. Box 322	
Glyndon, MD 21071
410-833-3007

jkeane@erols.com

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 18:08:11 1998
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From: LElsbury <LElsbury@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:52:28 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.15228.0>
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Sandy - I would like a copy of your paper also.  I would be more than happy to
cover your expense.  I have a feeling more than 2 of us would be interested.
My s-mail is L. A. Elsbury - 348 S. Woodrow Ave., Indpls., IN   46241 or if
you prefer to fax let me know and we'll work out a time since my fax gets
moved between phone lines frequently.  Thanks!  Whispy Blu@aol.com
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 18:23:51 1998
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From: mcFrenzy <pristine@gr.cns.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:21:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.162158.0>
References: <<1998Jan8.143147.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I recall that term [vitrolite], also.

Mike Figgy wrote:
> 
> I think what you've got isn't really glass but a ceramic/glass product
> called vitrolite that was very popular in the late fifties.
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 19:17:09 1998
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From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: All <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Half-round bevels
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 22:14:41 -0500
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Precedence: bulk

Our wholesalers carry these
4" bevels so they can't be too
hard to find.  I'll bet Charles
at W-C stocks them.

Best regards,

Dani Greer

P.S. Carol, when you cut the
4" rounds in half, do you have
the new edges bevelled?  If
not, how do you use them so
the unbeveled edge has eye
appeal?
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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 19:50:22 1998
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From: Hee Sun Stained Glass <jkeane@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: OOPS Forgot the URL
Date: Thu, 08 Jan 1998 22:50:03 -0500
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Here' s the URL that I forgot to put on the last note.
Hope this helps




	http://homepages.enterprise.net/ahpbartlettco/stmarys/








Robert &  Jeanne Keane
Hee Sun Stained Glass 
"Bestow Pleasure"
P.O. Box 322	
Glyndon, MD 21071
410-833-3007

jkeane@erols.com

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 20:45:34 1998
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From: seaspray@mail.island.net (Carol Swann)
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Half-round bevels
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:44:04 -0800
Message-ID: <199801090444.UAA04633@norm.island.net>
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>P.S. Carol, when you cut the
>4" rounds in half, do you have
>the new edges bevelled?  If
>not, how do you use them so
>the unbeveled edge has eye
>appeal?

Hi Dani,

Hope you met all your deadlines okay.

I guess technically what I've used isn't half round bevels since I don't
bevel the cut side...it's really a 4" bevel cut into two pieces.  I use
these mainly in free-form designs and they look great, since the half moon
of the bevel becomes a design feature.  To finish off the unbevelled edge, I
use thicker foil to make sure the side is completely covered and, again in
my design work, plan to use thickish glass in the adjacent piece.  Where the
thicker foil turns the corner onto the bevelled edge I trim it of course to
match the regular foil (usually 7/32).

I hope to persuade Albert to put a new photo up on my web page soon that
shows how I do this.  Got the photos back today and I need to set up the
lighting differently since the piece is a room divider with no natural
backlighting.  Looks like it's time to invest in more flash equipment :)

Cheers

Carol

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From: B Norman <glswrks@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Subscribe
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 21:13:31 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.131331.0>
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What ever the attachment was in this message it froze up my mail
system completely, did anyone else have a problem with it?

(From one of the responses I saw on Bungi, it appears he asked about
locating crystals, altho his "subject" was 'subscribe')




---MiChea`l McClendon  wrote:


_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Thu Jan  8 22:44:41 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:09:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.20914.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.11321.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Perhaps you could use the black glass tiles to make some nifty display
pedestals.

You could assemble them using silicone adhesive, the way they do fish
tanks, and light them from inside with white  glass (or a stained glass
design) for the top only.  Then if you place a stained glass box or
standing butterfly lady with the cast body, etc on top it will light them
up nicely. 
You could make short 16*16 tables with chess/checkerboard top lighted
internally.

If you have a sandblaster you could blast clean through on the sides and
let light through or glue opalescent glass on the inside of the cutouts
for a really dramatic effect.

Gary Dodge                   Dodge Studio Designs


On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:08:36 -0500 "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net> writes:
>Glenn Spicer wrote:
>> 
>> My vote goes more with Mike's idea of sandblasting designs in them, 
>they
>> would be phenomenal to sandblast and face a fireplace with, the 
>other ideas
>> merely recycle them, this transforms them.
>> Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:   Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
>> Sent:   Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
>> To:     glass@bungi.com
>> Subject:        Re: HELP
>> 
>>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
>> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding 
>the
>> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us 
>the
>> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of 
>very
>> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy 
>black
>> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used 
>to
>> stick
>> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't 
>resist a
>> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  
>Suggestions
>> please
>> 
>> Paul
>> Bumblebee Stained Glass
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>> 
>>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>>                Encoding: x-uuencode
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>and the other thing is that this thickness goes really well with door
>mirrors (height wise). and black and mirror usaully go together.
>
>some other uses:
>
>maybe cut them and use them for coasters, paint palettes (my mother 
>uses
>a sheet of glasss). or maybe a cutting board (carefully used), if you
>chamfer the corners (bevel it), you could use it as tile for somthing.
>maybe sleek black plates if you have a large kiln. or a really ugly 
>wind
>chime.. :)
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up 
>A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 00:23:41 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Black Glass Tiles
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 01:09:14 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.20914.0>
References: <<1998Jan7.11321.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Perhaps you could use the black glass tiles to make some nifty display
pedestals.

You could assemble them using silicone adhesive, the way they do fish
tanks, and light them from inside with white  glass (or a stained glass
design) for the top only.  Then if you place a stained glass box or
standing butterfly lady with the cast body, etc on top it will light them
up nicely. 
You could make short 16*16 tables with chess/checkerboard top lighted
internally.

If you have a sandblaster you could blast clean through on the sides and
let light through or glue opalescent glass on the inside of the cutouts
for a really dramatic effect.

Gary Dodge                   Dodge Studio Designs


On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 10:08:36 -0500 "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net> writes:
>Glenn Spicer wrote:
>> 
>> My vote goes more with Mike's idea of sandblasting designs in them, 
>they
>> would be phenomenal to sandblast and face a fireplace with, the 
>other ideas
>> merely recycle them, this transforms them.
>> Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:   Wallace, Paul [SMTP:glass@nobleco.net]
>> Sent:   Wednesday, January 07, 1998 6:32 PM
>> To:     glass@bungi.com
>> Subject:        Re: HELP
>> 
>>   I need som suggestions please.  Recently some friends of ours were
>> remodeling an old building.  When they took off the modern siding 
>the
>> building had a glass facade.  They removed the facade and gave us 
>the
>> unbroken pieces.  What we have are about 20 or 30 square pieces of 
>very
>> thick glass they are 16" by 16" by 5/16" thick.  They are all glossy 
>black
>> opaque glass and have globs of what looks like tar on the back used 
>to
>> stick
>> them up.  They are probably from at least the 20's.  I couldn't 
>resist a
>> freebie and am looking for ideas on what I can do with them.  
>Suggestions
>> please
>> 
>> Paul
>> Bumblebee Stained Glass
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>> 
>>                    Name: WINMAIL.DAT
>>     Part 1.2       Type: unspecified type (application/octet-stream)
>>                Encoding: x-uuencode
>> 
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>and the other thing is that this thickness goes really well with door
>mirrors (height wise). and black and mirror usaully go together.
>
>some other uses:
>
>maybe cut them and use them for coasters, paint palettes (my mother 
>uses
>a sheet of glasss). or maybe a cutting board (carefully used), if you
>chamfer the corners (bevel it), you could use it as tile for somthing.
>maybe sleek black plates if you have a large kiln. or a really ugly 
>wind
>chime.. :)
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up 
>A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 00:58:33 1998
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X-Path: stainedglass.co.uk!studio
From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:58:22 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.85822.0>
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Precedence: bulk

I'd like to see a copy too if possible
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 00:58:35 1998
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!live4games
From: "MiChea`l McClendon" <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: "Crystals" & Re: "B Norman"
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 00:57:14 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.165714.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello B. Norman;
    Thank You for you reply, concerning my "mail" i.e. Crystals.
Yes It was responded to By From:
Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo <Ensembles@compuserve.com>

With the Original Message of:
From: Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: INTERNET:glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Swarovski crystals sources
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 07:40

Message text written by MiChea`l McClendon
>Hello Fellow artisans;
    I am IN SEARCH of Crystals (not resin), of Swarovsky types; in =3D
Brilliant and ANY shape(s) and shades.
for Inlay of Stained glass windows/panels.
Warmest Regards & Thanks in Advance.
PS: Looking for "Bulk" sales.<

with RESPONSE as:
Where are you located?  Can you purchase wholesale?
I know Glass Emporium (North Wales, PA distributor for
wholesale purchase only) has Swarovski crystals in the
following shapes: octagon, heart, teardrop, pear, star,
snoflake, ball and spear.

Rainbow Art Glass/Studio J (Wall, NJ both retail & wholesale)
has Swarovski Strass crystals in the following shapes:
snowflake, heart, ball, bell, teardrop, star, octagon, and
frosted cross.

Warner-Crivellaro (Allentown, PA retail) has "Austrian Crystals"
which I believe are the same as the Swarovski crystals, available
in the following shapes: octagon, heart, snowflake, teardrop
and star.

Thank You All w/ Special THANKS To: Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo

B NORMAN: Sorry, I had my "Digitally Sign message" on, and that may have
caused the problem in sending!
PS: In case there's future correspondence, MiChea`l  is pronounced like
Michelle!  ;-)  No Harm!
And in closing...NO, I don't have access to Wholesale.  If there's any other
input, Please submit?  Again, My Thanks.
MiChea`l McClendon.  live4games@worldnet.att.net



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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 00:59:08 1998
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Recruiting new bungi members
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 08:58:21 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.85821.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

We too suggest anyone contacts us with have any queries or problems with
their stained glass joins bungi - though we do try to answer them personally
too.
Only seen two new names I recognise yet, but maybe next time they have a
crack in their project or want to locate an item they will pop up.
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 03:29:34 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: OOPS Forgot the URL
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 06:27:49 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-08 22:55:11 EST, you write:

<< 
 Here' s the URL that I forgot to put on the last note.
 Hope this helps
 
 
 
 
 	http://homepages.enterprise.net/ahpbartlettco/stmarys/ >>

I am not able to retrieve this-any suggestions?  Whispy Blu@aol.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 03:57:42 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: OOPS Forgot the URL
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:04:57 +0000
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>  	http://homepages.enterprise.net/ahpbartlettco/stmarys/
> I am not able to retrieve this-any suggestions?  Whispy Blu@aol.com

Try again ... I went there this morning and had no problems. The 
above URL works ... just get rid of the ">" and space at the head of 
the line above and make sure it ends with the "/" after "stmarys"

Albert

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 07:00:45 1998
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X-Path: vdot.net!shyguy
From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: half round bevels
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 09:49:14 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.14914.0>
References: <<199801082229.OAA28801@norm.island.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Cox's Mower Service
Precedence: bulk

I thought about this, BUT, the new cut (accross the diameter), will not
be beveled. and is twice as thick as the rest of the glass it abuts,
which doesn't work for me personally, and would screw up the line of the
design, going from 1/4" to 1/8" thickness. Thanks for the thought anyhow

Carol Swann wrote:

> >It's relatively easy to make your own...just score across a 4" bevel
> as if
> you're cutting flat glass (don't forget to go across the angled parts
> also),
> and VOILA, you have half bevels...Carol Swann
> Synergy Glass & Creative
>
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass



--
'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
others?'"Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 07:18:46 1998
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X-Path: wiredweb.com!croch
From: "Carol J. Rochnowski" <croch@wiredweb.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:19:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan8.231943.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I would love a copy also - Is it possible to just attach a copy here for all
of us? thanks for sharing Carol
-----Original Message-----
From: LElsbury <LElsbury@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: studio thesis


>Sandy - I would like a copy of your paper also.  I would be more than happy
to
>cover your expense.  I have a feeling more than 2 of us would be
interested.
>My s-mail is L. A. Elsbury - 348 S. Woodrow Ave., Indpls., IN   46241 or if
>you prefer to fax let me know and we'll work out a time since my fax gets
>moved between phone lines frequently.  Thanks!  Whispy Blu@aol.com
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 08:07:57 1998
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X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 11:08:36 -0500
Message-ID: <199801091604.LAA14782@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

My mail got messed up the day before.  Could it be the same problem?

----------
> From: B Norman <glswrks@yahoo.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Subscribe
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 12:13 AM
> 
> 
> What ever the attachment was in this message it froze up my mail
> system completely, did anyone else have a problem with it?
> 
> (From one of the responses I saw on Bungi, it appears he asked about
> locating crystals, altho his "subject" was 'subscribe')
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---MiChea`l McClendon  wrote:
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________
> DO YOU YAHOO!?
> Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 09:52:57 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!DMR74
From: DMR74 <DMR74@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:49:25 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.174925.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I have noticed that most attachments are not real attachments, some kind of
error maybe if someone wanted to send an attachment they should say I am
sending an attachment. and discribe what it is that way you would know whether
to down load or not.
deb
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 10:45:21 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Re: Looking for Design of Indian Chief
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 12:46:22 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.204622.0>
References: <<1998Jan6.11316.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Jazzykid, Joyce, Shirley, and Patrick,

Thank you for your help in locating native american designs.  The Stained=
 Glass Biz pattern search site Jazzykid suggested is a real lifesaver. =
 I'll definitely be using in alot in the future I'm sure.

Shirley,  Is this a new pattern book?  I called a retailer and they could=
n't find it listed.  Does it have an ISBN number on the back of it I can =
search by?  Is it just the pictures, or does it also include the patterns=
?
> Are you familiar with Carolyn Kyle presents Glass Patterns In Color II
> book?

Patrick, Thanks for the suggestion of Southwest Expressions.  I located =
a copy of it locally and I'm going to go take a look at it tomorrow.

Joyce, once again, thank you so much for your design of the Indian Chief.=
  It's wonderful.  Even if I do decide to go with a full-sized window, =
I'm going to make this panel as well.  

Dawn

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 10:55:12 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 98 13:02:13 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.21213.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hello everyone,

I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
 enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does 
not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the 
tip, which is causing a wavy effect.

I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
degree tip?

For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for 
foil work?

I have the iron plugged into an extension cord (just one).  Will that affect 
the power so much that the tip won't heat enough?

Should I buy another kind of iron that uses a rheostat, instead of the 
Weller 100?

Also, what size tip do you typically use for foil work?  The tip it came 
with (3/8") seems way too wide.  I'm usually using a 1/4" tip.

Anti-Seize - Is this product necessary?  Would a little WD-40 or 
something around the barrel of the iron or the shaft of the grinder do the 
same thing?  I thought about taking my tip off my Weller 100 when I'm 
not using the iron to help protect the tip, as well as prevent it freezing 
up.  I have my extras stored in a ziplock bag.  Would it be harmful to the 
iron for any reason to be stored without the tip?  Damage to the barrell?

Appreciate any insight I can get into my soldering problems.
Dawn
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 11:05:15 1998
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X-Path: 1st.net!glasqult
From: Joni Tornwall <glasqult@1st.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 15:13:31 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.151331.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.21213.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi!  I also have the same problem with my Weller 100 (with the built-in
temperatue control).  It is really frustrating because the iron seems to
be hot enough sometimes and cold other times.  I used much less
expensive irons that had rheostats at school and they worked so much
better.  I am buying a "cheaper" iron and a rheostat on my next trip to
the glass store, unless I can find a way to make my present iron work.  

One thing I have noticed--if I screw the tip tightly against the iron,
it overheats and then stops heating all together!  I would also
appreciate any suggestions.  Joni

> I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
>  enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does 
> not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the 
> tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
> 
> I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 12:13:57 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:13:39 -0800
Message-ID: <199801092013.MAA05310@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

IMHO.................Ungar 1,000 degree with  a rheostat is the ONLY way to
go for foil work.

Also available is an 1,100 degree tip as well.
You may find some other of my posts in the archives.

I can sell you the 1140A ungar and rheostat if so desire.

Email me privately, Howard
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 12:20:33 1998
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X-Path: teleport.com!Weaver51
From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: to Valerie (if you ain't her, you do not have to open it)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 12:20:37 -0800
Message-ID: <199801092019.MAA06247@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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The post got bounced back from all three addresses so I have posted it to
the list.

Hi Valerie, seems I have a lot of addresses for you and one of these should
get through.

Hope you are surviving the weather, from here it looks pretty rough.

Enough social chit-chat!
The rental of the 12" chestnut is as follows:
Form and Pattern  is         $110.00
branches are                        $ 24.00
postage                                 $ 12.00
                                             -----------------
 Total                                    $146.00 to me
WHEN I get the form and pattern (in no worse condition) back I will send
you a check for:$60.50 (55% of the retail of the form and pattern)
The form is drilled on top for a worden lamp holder, a nice addition (but
not necessary) if you are going to do a few shades over the years.

Enjoy, H


weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 13:28:05 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!bobnkate
From: "McDaniel" <bobnkate@ComCAT.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:35:20 -0500
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Yes, it froze up mine also.  I had to call the provider and he deleted the
message which unblocked things.  Nasty!

Dr. Bob and The Loom Rat
bobnkate@comcat.com
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:05:39 1998
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Subject: Re: OOPS Forgot the URL
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 16:57:17 EST
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Thanks Albert - it took 3 more attempts but I finally got there.  :)))
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:10:29 1998
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Subject: Unsubscribing
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:12:46 -0500
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<HTML>
Hi folks,

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have been mostly a lurker for about a year + some.&nbsp;
I am unsubscribing from this wonderful list, as I have not had time to
do stained glass in the last 6 months with working full time and having
a toddler running around.&nbsp; But I have learned a great deal of information
(and enjoyed at least some of the heated discussions), and I hope to find
this list again when I can devote more time to stained glass!&nbsp; Thanks!

<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Meigan</HTML>

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:31:00 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:25:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.122525.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.21213.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dawn wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
>  enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does
> not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the
> tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
> 
> I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800
> degree tip?
> 
> For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for
> foil work?
> 
> I have the iron plugged into an extension cord (just one).  Will that affect
> the power so much that the tip won't heat enough?
> 
> Should I buy another kind of iron that uses a rheostat, instead of the
> Weller 100?
> 
> Also, what size tip do you typically use for foil work?  The tip it came
> with (3/8") seems way too wide.  I'm usually using a 1/4" tip.
> 
> Anti-Seize - Is this product necessary?  Would a little WD-40 or
> something around the barrel of the iron or the shaft of the grinder do the
> same thing?  I thought about taking my tip off my Weller 100 when I'm
> not using the iron to help protect the tip, as well as prevent it freezing
> up.  I have my extras stored in a ziplock bag.  Would it be harmful to the
> iron for any reason to be stored without the tip?  Damage to the barrell?
> 
> Appreciate any insight I can get into my soldering problems.
> Dawn
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i don't have a weller, but hotter is always better, in my book. i
personally don't use anti sieze, it tends to smoke (even if it's meant
for heat). wd-40 would go up in a cloud of smoke.

usaully all of my tips are around 3/8" wide. mainly because i can get
into tight spots, and also so my arm does'nt get tired (heavier iron). 

i prefer keeping the tip in, mainly because it protects the elements. it
keeps them from rusting (faster), and from foriegn objects. it also
prevents loosing the tips.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:33:39 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 17:28:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.122820.0>
References: <<199801092013.MAA05310@smtp3.teleport.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Howard and Elaine Rubin wrote:
> 
> IMHO.................Ungar 1,000 degree with  a rheostat is the ONLY way to
> go for foil work.
> 
> Also available is an 1,100 degree tip as well.
> You may find some other of my posts in the archives.
> 
> I can sell you the 1140A ungar and rheostat if so desire.
> 
> Email me privately, Howard
> weaver51@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
> enmeshed in the internet
> trapped in the world wide web
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


so far that's the only iron that i like. hot tip, flexible cord, can be
used on a reostat. but expensive, though worth it...

generally i get the 50w (1100 degree).

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:47:35 1998
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X-Path: tznet.com!diacca
From: Pat Diacca Topp <diacca@tznet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: where is it?  
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 16:45:27 -0600
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980109164527.007b9790@mail.tznet.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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HI!  tried both Explorer and Netscape and got the same "can't open"  for
<http://www.teleport.com/~glaswiz> This was supposed to be Fusion
headquarters web page?  I got this off the igga list of suppliers.  What
did I do wrong?

Thanks, Pat

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:50:12 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:04:02 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.2242.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I use my 100 watt thermostat controlled on a rheostat when I need a cooler
temp.  I was also "taught" to use vaseline on the tip (cheaper) and to take
the tip off when I'm not using it to keep it from freezing on the iron
(Weller).  I too would be interested in what others do.  Lu Ann
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 14:57:09 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 98 17:58:21 -0500
Message-ID: <199801092256.RAA18071@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dawn wrote:
>
>I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
> enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does 
>not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the 
>tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
>
>I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
>degree tip?
>
>For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for 
>foil work?

Dawn, I have the Weller 100 with an 800-degree tip. Last year I bought a 
Glastar rheostat to go with it, and it has solved all my soldering 
problems. Usually I can run the rheostat at about 70% for tinning; for 
beading I turn it down to about 50% and it works wonderfully.

I personally prefer the 1/4-inch tip also, it seems to be wide enough for 
my work and turn it on its side for finer soldering.

The Glastar rheostat cost me about $32; I have found it well worth the 
investment!

Suzanne

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 15:12:30 1998
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:56:13 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.225613.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.21213.0@?>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dawn,

I have a few suggestions, which I have interspersed with your message.

In message <1998Jan9.21213.0@?>, Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com> writes
>Hello everyone,
>
>I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
> enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does 
>not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the 
>tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
>
This sounds like there just isn't enough capacity to deal with the heat
loss from the tip while soldering.  Going a bit slower might help.
>I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
>degree tip?
an 800 degree soldering bolt might help, but it still may be that 100
watts just isn't enough power to keep the tip hot for the speed of your
work.
>
>For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for 
>foil work?
I use 800 for foil, 700 for lead.  But I also have a 200w Weller which
gives no problem in heat loss.  It only has a (rather large) 700 degree
bolt
>
>I have the iron plugged into an extension cord (just one).  Will that affect 
>the power so much that the tip won't heat enough?
No.
>
>Should I buy another kind of iron that uses a rheostat, instead of the 
>Weller 100?
No.  the rheostat just reduces the amount of power going to the iron and
therefore the bolt, meaning that the bolt will take longer to recover
from the heat loss of melting the solder.
>
>Also, what size tip do you typically use for foil work?  The tip it came 
>with (3/8") seems way too wide.  I'm usually using a 1/4" tip.
Fine, use what you feel comfortable with, but remember the soldering
bolt is a heat sink.  It holds a lot of heat with which to melt the
solder.  the smaller the bolt, the faster it loses heat, so the slower
you have to solder.
>
>Anti-Seize - Is this product necessary?  Would a little WD-40 or 
>something around the barrel of the iron or the shaft of the grinder do the 
>same thing?  I thought about taking my tip off my Weller 100 when I'm 
>not using the iron to help protect the tip, as well as prevent it freezing 
>up.  I have my extras stored in a ziplock bag.  Would it be harmful to the 
>iron for any reason to be stored without the tip?  Damage to the barrell?
>
I partially unscrew the securing ring after the iron has cooled and
before i put it away.  As long as the iron is stored in dry conditions,
there should be no problems storing the iron with or without the bolt.
But,  are you sure the ziplock bag is dry inside?


-- 
Steve Richard
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 15:36:38 1998
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X-Path: ideal.jf.intel.com!lynice
From: "L. Spangler" <lynice@ideal.jf.intel.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Hot Glass Horizons (was RE: where is it?)
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:30:55 -0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.153055.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

This URL worked for me.  Has anyone gone to this 3-day event?   I'd be interested in hearing some feedback so I can decide if I want to go.

Thanks,
L. Spangler

On Friday, January 09, 1998 10:45 PM, Pat Diacca Topp [SMTP:diacca@tznet.com] wrote:
> HI!  tried both Explorer and Netscape and got the same "can't open"  for
> <http://www.teleport.com/~glaswiz> This was supposed to be Fusion
> headquarters web page?  I got this off the igga list of suppliers.  What
> did I do wrong?
> 
> Thanks, Pat
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 17:48:46 1998
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean " <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 17:48:08 -0800
Message-ID: <199801100143.RAA13479@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I don't know if there was any 'attachment' to the msg (I never got that
far!) from:
 
		MiChea`l McClendon.
		live4games@worldnet.att.net

It was the message itself that jammed my mail! I too had to get the
provider to investigate the problem (when I couldn't retrieve mail for 12
hours!). They removed the message sent by MiChea'l and that cleared it up.
Something in her message appears to have 'bombed' some of our browsers.

This has happened in the past, for one reason or another.  Do any of you
computer whizzes have any ideas as to how this could be avoided in the
future?

----------
> From: DMR74 <DMR74@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 9:49 AM
> 
> I have noticed that most attachments are not real attachments, some kind
of
> error maybe if someone wanted to send an attachment they should say I am
> sending an attachment. and discribe what it is that way you would know
whether
> to down load or not.
> deb
> ----
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> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 18:27:12 1998
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X-Path: sympatico.ca!arthurs.and.willis
From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: studio thesis
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:20:09 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.16209.0>
References: <<1998Jan8.133437.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Folks,

I've been getting lots of interest in the studio thesis.  My husband was
playing around on his web page (Have pity when you visit, he's just
learning) and loaded it up on the page.  You can download it from:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/arthurs.and.willis/Glass.htm

It's only in Word for now, I'll try to get the text version out some
time this weekend, but the tables and figures don't work out very well
in the text version.

Given the kafuffle about attachments jamming up e-mail, I won't bother
to attach it here.

Keep in mind that this represents stained glass as I see it, and I am a
pure hobbyist who happens to struggle with soldering and sometimes
cutting.  I had to write it for someone who didn't know anything about
the hobby.  Also, as usual, I left the writing until the last minute
before the assignment was due, so some of it may be oversimplified or
exagerated (that word doesn't look right no matter how I spell it)
depending on what I thought the instructor wanted to see.

While you're at the site, you can take a look at our Caribbean vacation
summaries.  Only 30 more days to go 'til the next one.  That's great
given that our National Capital has been listed in a state of emergency
because of the ice storms the last few days and that's only a four hour
drive from here.

Hope this helps, it's nice to give back to a group that's been so
helpful to me.

Sandy
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 18:36:00 1998
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X-Path: sympatico.ca!arthurs.and.willis
From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:28:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.162850.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.151331.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi everyone,

I have a Weller 100 and I was wondering whether anyone else has
experienced this phenomenon.  When I am soldering, the solder bead sets
so that it looks like it's been sandblasted with very fine pitting. 
I've tried new solder, flux, copper foil, and a new solder tip but I
still get the same sort of bead.  I used a girlfriend's Weller 100 over
Christmas and I didn't get that effect so I think it's something to do
with the iron heat control. The iron is about 8 years old. I have no
complaints about how fast the bead runs and I didn't notice any bead
speed difference when I used my friend's iron.  I haven't taken the iron
into my local glass store yet, but that is the next step.

Anyone hear of this before?  These Ungar solder irons sound interesting,
will take a look in my catalogs for prices.

Thanks much as always,

Sandy
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 19:04:38 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: All <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Why flux?
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:03:37 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.17337.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi All-

Here's a question for the teachers
and scientists in the group.  A
customer ask me today why I had
to use flux before I soldered.  Ummm.
Well, umm, the solder won't stick =

otherwise... Ummm, good question.
Could I get a scientific ( but
understandable to a layman) answer
in case a student every asks me that?!
Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 19:32:19 1998
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X-Path: abelink.com!rbaker
From: Di Baker <rbaker@abelink.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Happy New Year
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:32:05 -0500
Message-ID: <v03007805b0dc8cc9e02c@[206.29.84.168]>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi all of you wonderful stained glass artists!

Happy New Year! I am so glad I survived the holiday season & am now working
on Valentine's day gifts -- but things have finally slowed down a little
<g>.

I am usually a lurker but want to thank everyone on this list -- I have
really learned alot from everyone. Thank you! I love reading the posts
daily (((:

So a little off the subject -- I know there are cat lovers out there among
us -- my cat is addicted to the plastic copper foil ring -- are there any
harmful chemicals leftover that I should be concerned about? I hope not
cause my Cagney loves that little piece of plastic.

Thanks,

Di

~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*
                _ |\_
                \` ..\   Di Baker       <rbaker@abelink.com>
           __,.-" =__Y=  Kitties--Bogie Blue, Chanel Blue, Sarah,
   jgs   ."        )              Tornado, Cagney
   _    /   ,    \/\_    Wanna see how cute we are? Visit us at:
  ((____|    )_-\ \_-`   http://www.islandnet.com/~jbrooks/di1.htm
  `-----'`-----` `--`
~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* 


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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 21:04:19 1998
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:03:38 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:47:40 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.184740.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.17337.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

There are three main reasons that you need flux.

1)  Flux cleans the metal so that solder can easily bond with it.  If you
watch while you apply flux to some older copper foil you can actually see
the color get lighter and shinier.

2) Flux forms a liquid bridge between your iron tip and your metals
aiding in the transfer of heat to your work.

3)  Flux reduces the surface tension of the molten solder.  For a graphic
demonstration of this try the following:
Start with a clean dry piece of wood, homosote or wall board.  Melt some
solder onto the material and push it around a bit with your hot iron.  
You will see that the metal looks lifeless and kind of like it has a
thick skin over it.  It reminds me of a plastic bag full of water.  While
the solder is still hot , quickly brush a bit of flux onto it.  If you
don't douse it too heavily and cool it off, you will witness it
immediately come to life.  The "plastic bag" will disappear and the
solder will pull itself up into a  lively snappy ball that  bounces and
rolls around freely. (like mercury)

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs
On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:03:37 -0500 "Michael J. Greer"
<GreerStudios@compuserve.com> writes:
>Hi All-
>
>Here's a question for the teachers
>and scientists in the group.  A
>customer ask me today why I had
>to use flux before I soldered.  Ummm.
>Well, umm, the solder won't stick =
>
>otherwise... Ummm, good question.
>Could I get a scientific ( but
>understandable to a layman) answer
>in case a student every asks me that?!
>Thanks!
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 21:26:51 1998
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X-Path: snowcrest.net!aurora
From: "cathie sutton" <aurora@snowcrest.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:17:45 -0800
Message-ID: <199801100526.VAA05317@snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

dawn.  have you tried to clean you iron?  when cool unscrew the nut that
holds the tip in  then pull out tip and clean with rubbing alcohol also use
q-tip and clean out the inside of the iron where the tip sets.  If that
doesn't work try another extention cord. cathie

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 21:48:40 1998
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X-Path: vdot.net!shyguy
From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:27:45 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.192745.0>
References: <<199801100143.RAA13479@intergate.lasercom.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Cox's Mower Service
Precedence: bulk

I opened it ok with Netscape 4.01. If those of you who had problems, email me,
and let me know what software  you are using for email, I'll try to find a
common thread

Jean wrote:

> This has happened in the past, for one reason or another.  Do any of you
> computer whizzes have any ideas as to how this could be avoided in the
> future?

'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 22:04:06 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:03:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.2038.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Dawn-

It sounds to me like your iron
is just not able to keep up with
you.  We don't use the Weller100
for copper foil work at all- it just
cools off too fast to get a good
long run.  You might try a
beefier Weller - 150 or 175.  We
like Hexacons if you can find a
source - have only found one
wholesaler that supplies them
though.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 22:14:19 1998
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	for rglass-42; Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:13:48 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean " <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:14:09 -0800
Message-ID: <199801100609.WAA25441@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Carl,
I use Microsoft Explorer for mail. That msg totally stopped up my mail
system. My provider deleted the offending mail and all was well after that.
They could not get my mail with one machine but with Netscape on another
they were able to get all and the problem was cleared.

Hopefully the others will also let you know what they are using, it would
be nice to resolve this.
Thx, Jean

----------
> From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 9:27 PM
> 
> I opened it ok with Netscape 4.01. If those of you who had problems,
email me,
> and let me know what software  you are using for email, I'll try to find
a
> common thread
> 
> Jean wrote:
> 
> > This has happened in the past, for one reason or another.  Do any of
you
> > computer whizzes have any ideas as to how this could be avoided in the
> > future?
> 
>
----
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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 22:35:58 1998
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X-Path: softcom.net!mthaxton
From: "Melissa Thaxton" <mthaxton@softcom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 22:35:22 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.143522.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I know I've been there.  just beautiful.
Melissa


-----Original Message-----
From: M. Savad <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Thursday, January 08, 1998 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass


>Melissa Thaxton wrote:
>>
>> When I first started stained glass in 1979, all I ever used was Fisher
and
>> Desag`,  couldn't get me to use anything else.  It's nice to see "others"
>> with the same pallet!  Never have physically seen Lamberts glass but when
I
>> do I will be in the poor house, I'm sure!
>>
>> Melissa
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael J. Greer <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
>> To: INTERNET:glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>> Date: Wednesday, January 07, 1998 2:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: Merry-Go-Round Glass
>>
>> >And then, of course, there are
>> >glasses like the Glashutte =
>> >
>> >Lamberts that we're working
>> >with right now that make you
>> >think you've died and gone
>> >to glass heaven!  West German.
>> >Mouthblown. Expensive.  Yum.
>> >
>> >Sure wish all our customers would
>> >spring for this stuff!  (I guess at =
>> >
>> >$120/sheet wholesale I should say
>> >"stuph"!)
>> >
>> >Best regards,
>> >
>> >Dani Greer
>> >Greer Gallery & Studios
>> >http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
>> >----
>> >For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> >To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> >Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>>
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>oh then go to http://www.lamberts.de/elambhom.htm they have most of
>their colors online. it looks alot nicer in person of course, until you
>see the price attached.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>--
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 23:14:26 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@BUNGI.COM" <glass@BUNGI.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:03:15 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.20315.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks for the reply, Gary, but
I want to know WHY.  What is
happening on a chemical level?
What is it about flux that does all
these things, why can't I use some-
thing else, say, butter (or Parkay for that
matter!)  Why do the same character-
istics you describe apply to both
copper foil and lead?  Why can't
I "clean" my lead with a steel brush
and have the solder adhere without
flux?  It's more than just how clean
the metal is.  There's a chemical
reaction that occurs and I'd like to
get an understandable explanation
if that's possible.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/  =

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 23:29:19 1998
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X-Path: snowcrest.net!beermug
From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:28:42 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <199801100728.XAA29069@snowcrest.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have a question about putting the Weller 100 on a rheastat, I was taught
not to do that, the Weller 100 has an internal control and putting it on a
rheastat would burn it out.  Has this changed?  
I find if I don't keep the tip very clean, I lose heat much faster and have
to solder much slower.
Sherry

At 05:58 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Dawn wrote:
>>
>>I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
>> enough. 
>>I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
>>degree tip?

Dawn, I have the Weller 100 with an 800-degree tip. Last year I bought a 
>Glastar rheostat to go with it, and it has solved all my soldering 
>problems. Usually I can run the rheostat at about 70% for tinning; for 
>beading I turn it down to about 50% and it works wonderfully.

>Suzanne
>
>-

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From owner-glass Fri Jan  9 23:54:04 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Looking for Design of Indian Chief
Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 23:52:59 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.155259.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.204622.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Dawn wrote:
> 
> Jazzykid, Joyce, Shirley, and Patrick,
> 
> Thank you for your help in locating native american designs.  The Stained=
>  Glass Biz pattern search site Jazzykid suggested is a real lifesaver. =
>  I'll definitely be using in alot in the future I'm sure.
> 
> Shirley,  Is this a new pattern book?  I called a retailer and they could=
> n't find it listed.  Does it have an ISBN number on the back of it I can =
> search by?  Is it just the pictures, or does it also include the patterns=
> ?
> > Are you familiar with Carolyn Kyle presents Glass Patterns In Color II
> > book?
ISBN 0-935133-34-8     Copyright 1990

Title               Pattern #       Size           Page
Cheyenne Winter     CKE-107         19" by 17"     26
Navajo Brave        CKE-115         16" by 23"     26
Plains Warrior      CKE-120         24" by 33"     25
Forever Proud       CKE119          21" by 35"     24

All patterns are $9 ea.
Shoshoni Encampment and Navajo Brave are a pair.

It is a 50 page soft cover book with 50 full color photos of the
finnished project.  Then the last 3 pages are the order info.
Hope this helps.  It is a really neat book.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 00:47:55 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: New  Stepping Stone site and Indian pattern
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 00:44:51 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.164451.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

This has really taken stepping stones and stained glass to a high level
if not the highest.  Check it out
http://glassicarts.com/artwork.htm
And it sure looks like the indian is CKE's Forever Proud if you want to
see what that pattern looks like.  The background is IMHO better.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 01:39:15 1998
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Indian Chief
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:37:49 -0800
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Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Just got my Winter 97/98 Glass Pattern Quarterly and on page 22 Wardell
Publication isadvertising Windows of North America.  There is a great
Indian Chief on the cover.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 02:12:18 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Hot Glass Horizons (was RE: where is it?)
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 05:19:36 +0000
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> Has anyone gone to this 3-day event?  

Gil Reynolds has a reputation for being one of the most knowledgeable 
glass fusing people around ... and an infectious, enthusiastic 
teacher, as well, so I'd say go for it. By the way, the URL 
http://www.teleport.com/~glaswiz/ works fine from here.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 03:41:28 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 06:40:21 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.114021.0>
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In a message dated 98-01-10 00:10:49 EST, you write:

<< Howard and Elaine Rubin wrote:
 > 
 > IMHO.................Ungar 1,000 degree with  a rheostat is the ONLY way to
 > go for foil work. >>

Howard:  If you have the time would you explain why?  Thanks!    Lu Ann
(Whispy Blu@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 04:34:23 1998
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From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:35:54 -0500
Message-ID: <199801101231.HAA10503@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Are you using lead solder?  I know lead free will do this.

Also as to soldering irons, our favorite at our store is the Hakko.  I
started on an Ungar years ago and loved it, also, but almost immediately
burned my cord - it slips right through the rings on the soldering iron
holder.  The Hakko has a big, thick cord that doesn't allow this to happen.
 But that is not the real reason for my love of the Hakko - it just feels
better and seems to have that nice, even heat to the tip.

However, we still sell Ungars and they are great, too.

Actually, it is a really big investement, but the Hexacon iron is great -
kind of hard to get used to at first (it is hatchet shaped) but I don't
have to go back and bead - the first swipe is the last swipe since it puts
a bead on the piece as you are doing preliminary soldering.

Well, thats my 2 cents worth.

Zane

----------
> From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Weller 100
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 9:28 PM
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have a Weller 100 and I was wondering whether anyone else has
> experienced this phenomenon.  When I am soldering, the solder bead sets
> so that it looks like it's been sandblasted with very fine pitting. 
> I've tried new solder, flux, copper foil, and a new solder tip but I
> still get the same sort of bead.  I used a girlfriend's Weller 100 over
> Christmas and I didn't get that effect so I think it's something to do
> with the iron heat control. The iron is about 8 years old. I have no
> complaints about how fast the bead runs and I didn't notice any bead
> speed difference when I used my friend's iron.  I haven't taken the iron
> into my local glass store yet, but that is the next step.
> 
> Anyone hear of this before?  These Ungar solder irons sound interesting,
> will take a look in my catalogs for prices.
> 
> Thanks much as always,
> 
> Sandy
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 04:37:15 1998
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From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:38:54 -0500
Message-ID: <199801101234.HAA24134@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I would just wipe it off well - you have been handling it with flux and
lead on your hands for several days/weeks, so it may have surface
contamination.

Otherwise, let Cagney go at it.  Ever tried tying it to a piece of string
and attaching the string to a pole (sort of a fishing rod set up) and they
teasing her with it.  Cats love that, also.

----------
> From: Di Baker <rbaker@abelink.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Happy New Year
> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 9:32 PM
> 
> Hi all of you wonderful stained glass artists!
> 
> Happy New Year! I am so glad I survived the holiday season & am now
working
> on Valentine's day gifts -- but things have finally slowed down a little
> <g>.
> 
> I am usually a lurker but want to thank everyone on this list -- I have
> really learned alot from everyone. Thank you! I love reading the posts
> daily (((:
> 
> So a little off the subject -- I know there are cat lovers out there
among
> us -- my cat is addicted to the plastic copper foil ring -- are there any
> harmful chemicals leftover that I should be concerned about? I hope not
> cause my Cagney loves that little piece of plastic.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Di
> 
> ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*
>                 _ |\_
>                 \` ..\   Di Baker       <rbaker@abelink.com>
>            __,.-" =__Y=  Kitties--Bogie Blue, Chanel Blue, Sarah,
>    jgs   ."        )              Tornado, Cagney
>    _    /   ,    \/\_    Wanna see how cute we are? Visit us at:
>   ((____|    )_-\ \_-`   http://www.islandnet.com/~jbrooks/di1.htm
>   `-----'`-----` `--`
> ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* 
> 
> 
> ----
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----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 05:36:30 1998
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X-Path: praxis.net!chicago
From: "Carole Pearson" <chicago@pig.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:36:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.3367.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Hi,
I also had a problem with this piece of mail. Luckily it happened to me in
the middle of a work day so I could call my server and they managed to pull
that message out of my mailbox. I am using Microsoft Internet Mail
ver.4.70.1162. This is the first time I had had this problem. 
Carole

****I will not yell on the bus...I will not throw things on the bus...I
will not get mad and hit anyone on the bus...I will not put my gum under
the seat...I will always keep my eyes on the road, because I am the
driver...I am the driver... I am the driver...****

----------
> From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 12:27 AM
> 
> I opened it ok with Netscape 4.01. If those of you who had problems,
email me,
> and let me know what software  you are using for email, I'll try to find
a
> common thread
> 
> Jean wrote:
> 
> > This has happened in the past, for one reason or another.  Do any of
you
> > computer whizzes have any ideas as to how this could be avoided in the
> > future?
> 
> 'Every (person) must decide whether to walk in the light of creative
> altruism or the darkness of selfishness. This is the judgement. Life's
> most persistent and urgent question is "What are you doing for
> others?' "Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
> 
> 
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 06:10:44 1998
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From: "Dianne G. Maddison" <artglass@flash.net>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 07:09:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan9.23917.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Ivory Express
Precedence: bulk

Hi All,
I also used a Weller 100 for many years with the same frustration that
many of you are experiencing.  I used 1/8 tip because I was able to get
in those small areas of copper foil.  I now use a Hakko 456 with 1/8"
tip and I really love it.  No cooling and a nice even bead.  
Dianne
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 06:39:10 1998
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!summit-stained-glass
From: mike peck <summit-stained-glass@worldnet.att.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:41:06 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.2416.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.21213.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Summit Stained Glass  (see us at:  http://www.summitstudio.com)
Precedence: bulk

Dawn,

Don't give up on that Weller 100.  Just a few thoughts that I have......

In my experience with the Weller 100s, they ARE sensitive to drops in
current because they operate on a bimetal expansion principal. ie, they
have to have full power in order to generate enough heat for the metals
to expand and contract.  They DO NOT work off of a rheostat because
rheostats cut the current back to some percentage of the supplied
current from the outlet.

Extension cords are a problem ..... IF ..... they are very long
(provides enough resistance in the cord to drop the current), or if they
are small gauge wire (smaller than 14 gauge).  One customer of mine had
a similar problem with a Weller 100 in her basement, but it worked fine
in my shop .... when we started talking about her set up, she said there
were three extension cords (about 75 feet in total) that ran from an
outlet to her bench.  She removed the extension cords and her iron
worked fine.

Another thing to check is the circuit itself.  If you're running lights,
boom box, exhaust fans, beer cooler and every thing else off the same
circuit, then there could be enough of a drain on that circuit to
interfere with the Weller .... try to use it on a dedicated circuit, or
at least beef the amperage up with a 20 or 30 amp breaker.

The 700 degree tip should work fine for foil and lead, unless (like
someone else suggested) you're trying to pull the bead too fast.  The
800 degree tip works best for me on hard cames like zinc and brass or
copper, and the 600 degree tip works well for decorative stuff where you
want the solder to be more "pasty" than molten.

Keep the iron clean and you shouldn't need any anti-seize compounds

Seriously, I've had very good luck with the Wellers 100s, but the
primary problem that I have seen is insufficient power to allow the iron
function properly.

Hope this helps.

Mike Peck
Summit Stained Glass



Dawn wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
>  enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does
> not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag the
> tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
> 
> I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800
> degree tip?
> 
> For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for
> foil work?
> 
> I have the iron plugged into an extension cord (just one).  Will that affect
> the power so much that the tip won't heat enough?
> 
> Should I buy another kind of iron that uses a rheostat, instead of the
> Weller 100?
> 
> Also, what size tip do you typically use for foil work?  The tip it came
> with (3/8") seems way too wide.  I'm usually using a 1/4" tip.
> 
> Anti-Seize - Is this product necessary?  Would a little WD-40 or
> something around the barrel of the iron or the shaft of the grinder do the
> same thing?  I thought about taking my tip off my Weller 100 when I'm
> not using the iron to help protect the tip, as well as prevent it freezing
> up.  I have my extras stored in a ziplock bag.  Would it be harmful to the
> iron for any reason to be stored without the tip?  Damage to the barrell?
> 
> Appreciate any insight I can get into my soldering problems.
> Dawn
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 07:10:11 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:04:26 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.5426.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.162850.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Joseph Arthurs wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have a Weller 100 and I was wondering whether anyone else has
> experienced this phenomenon.  When I am soldering, the solder bead sets
> so that it looks like it's been sandblasted with very fine pitting.
> I've tried new solder, flux, copper foil, and a new solder tip but I
> still get the same sort of bead.  I used a girlfriend's Weller 100 over
> Christmas and I didn't get that effect so I think it's something to do
> with the iron heat control. The iron is about 8 years old. I have no
> complaints about how fast the bead runs and I didn't notice any bead
> speed difference when I used my friend's iron.  I haven't taken the iron
> into my local glass store yet, but that is the next step.
> 
> Anyone hear of this before?  These Ungar solder irons sound interesting,
> will take a look in my catalogs for prices.
> 
> Thanks much as always,
> 
> Sandy
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

it sound's like too much flux, but i'm not sure. maybe the iron is
running hotter than normal. the ungar is a very good iron, lightweight,
and hot. the average price is between $35-50 or so. get the one that is
one piece (the heater unit). they make a type that the tip is seperate
from the heater. it's cheaper, but it does'nt heat up at all well.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 07:16:21 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Happy New Year
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:10:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.51047.0>
References: <<v03007805b0dc8cc9e02c@[206.29.84.168]>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Di Baker wrote:
> 
> Hi all of you wonderful stained glass artists!
> 
> Happy New Year! I am so glad I survived the holiday season & am now working
> on Valentine's day gifts -- but things have finally slowed down a little
> <g>.
> 
> I am usually a lurker but want to thank everyone on this list -- I have
> really learned alot from everyone. Thank you! I love reading the posts
> daily (((:
> 
> So a little off the subject -- I know there are cat lovers out there among
> us -- my cat is addicted to the plastic copper foil ring -- are there any
> harmful chemicals leftover that I should be concerned about? I hope not
> cause my Cagney loves that little piece of plastic.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Di
> 
> ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*
>                 _ |\_
>                 \` ..\   Di Baker       <rbaker@abelink.com>
>            __,.-" =__Y=  Kitties--Bogie Blue, Chanel Blue, Sarah,
>    jgs   ."        )              Tornado, Cagney
>    _    /   ,    \/\_    Wanna see how cute we are? Visit us at:
>   ((____|    )_-\ \_-`   http://www.islandnet.com/~jbrooks/di1.htm
>   `-----'`-----` `--`
> ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~* ~*
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i don't think there would be. i would wash it thoughly, to remove
possible flux, and mold releases.


---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 07:25:38 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:19:50 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.51950.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.114021.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Whispy Blu wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 98-01-10 00:10:49 EST, you write:
> 
> << Howard and Elaine Rubin wrote:
>  >
>  > IMHO.................Ungar 1,000 degree with  a rheostat is the ONLY way to
>  > go for foil work. >>
> 
> Howard:  If you have the time would you explain why?  Thanks!    Lu Ann
> (Whispy Blu@aol.com)
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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when soldering you want a constant heat flow, you want the solder to
stay a liquid as you work with it. all the other irons i've used could
never do that. it stays a liquid at the imidiate site of the tip. the
ungar will keep the first inch liquid making for smoother beads. it will
also heat a cap much faster, making a better bond for the solder.

i found it's the quickest iron to use for fast beads.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 07:31:26 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:24:00 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.5240.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.23917.0>>
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Dianne G. Maddison wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> I also used a Weller 100 for many years with the same frustration that
> many of you are experiencing.  I used 1/8 tip because I was able to get
> in those small areas of copper foil.  I now use a Hakko 456 with 1/8"
> tip and I really love it.  No cooling and a nice even bead.
> Dianne
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


does your hakko tip have tinning all the way up? when i got mine, both
tips were tinned only 1/4 of the way up. which means it's really bad at
soldering. are all the tips like that? or are mine the unlucky ones... 

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 07:48:56 1998
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From: DMR74 <DMR74@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 10:48:10 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.154810.0>
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In a message dated 98-01-10 00:59:39 EST, you write:

> I opened it ok with Netscape 4.01. If those of you who had problems, email
me,
>  and let me know what software  you are using for email, I'll try to find a
>  common thread
>  
so what was in it?
deb
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 08:37:17 1998
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean " <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100 & Rheostat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:37:12 -0800
Message-ID: <199801101632.IAA12794@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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I have been using a Weller 100 for about 3 yrs now.  The tip has NEVER
seized up (I don't use anything on it).  I also use a 700 degree tip.  My
only problem is that it runs TOO hot.  I have been toying with the idea of
buying a rheastat but never get around to it.  Now I wonder if I should or
not.

Jean

----------
> From: Paul Deutsch <beermug@snowcrest.net>

> Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 11:28 PM
> 
> I have a question about putting the Weller 100 on a rheastat, I was
taught
> not to do that, the Weller 100 has an internal control and putting it on
a
> rheastat would burn it out.  Has this changed?  
> Sherry
> -----------
> 
>
At 05:58 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Dawn wrote:
> >>
> >>I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being hot
> >> enough. 
> >>I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
> >>degree tip?
> -------------
>
> Dawn, I have the Weller 100 with an 800-degree tip. Last year I bought a 
> >Glastar rheostat to go with it, and it has solved all my soldering 
> >problems. Usually I can run the rheostat at about 70% for tinning; for 
> >beading I turn it down to about 50% and it works wonderfully.
> 
> >Suzanne
> 
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 08:51:38 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Weller 100 & Rheostat
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:50:11 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.165011.0>
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In a message dated 98-01-10 11:42:33 EST, you write:

<< I have been using a Weller 100 for about 3 yrs now.  The tip has NEVER
 seized up (I don't use anything on it).  I also use a 700 degree tip.  My
 only problem is that it runs TOO hot.  I have been toying with the idea of
 buying a rheastat but never get around to it.  Now I wonder if I should or
 n >>
 
I have used a rh-stat on mine, but the postings are making me think twice.
I've done so for about 4 yrs. and mine is still working so.............I guess
I'll keep reading the posts before I do it again.  It also appears that I
might need more than one iron.  What I am learning on bungi!!!  Lu Ann (Whispy
Blu@aol.com)
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 09:59:52 1998
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From: "MiChea`l McClendon" <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Hot Glass Horizons (was RE: where is it?)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 09:58:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.15843.0>
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Hello!
    I'm running MS Internet Explorer 4.01, and the URL:
http://www.teleport.com/~glaswiz
WORKED for me too!
Suggestion?: type the URL in your browser, rather than clicking on the
syntax.
Otherwise...contact your Server, for help from your support techs, something
may be amiss in your setup!
regards, MiChea`l

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 10:51:19 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'bungians'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Bradley Sconce Lighting mold
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:35:23 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.113523.0>
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Precedence: bulk


Hi, I just want to warn you..  Always check your pattern to the  mold  =
and  if applicable to your base for your finished product. Yesterday, I =
was very excited to start cutting glass for my Bradley Sconce Light.  I =
had  cut the pattern out and was just ready to chose the glass and glue =
the pattern to it.. This is the few times I make anything for myself, =
and was glad to replace that 1950 wall light in my hallway.  I had =
chosen the Iris pattern with  a ribbon pattern and a border.. While =
downstairs I decided to lay the pattern on the mold and see how the  =
base fitted to the bottom.. Well, to my astonishment, the base hid a =
good inch of the bottom of the shade.. This meant that the border glass =
would not be seen and in fact, part of the ribbon was also hid.. So =
today I will be drawing out a new pattern..  I had hoped that I would =
have been able to start foiling while I watched the Steelers football =
game tomorrow, but atlas, I will not be able to foil, but glad I did not =
have a finished lamp and than seen the problem..=20
To Howard,
Thank you, I have been reading the archives and your directions on lamp =
making is fantastic.. If any one is interested in making lamps, you =
should read the archives.. Howard's help is great, and I just finished =
the part when you received the title of Uncle.. Just for all your =
thoughtfulness.  Thank you..,
Gloria
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 10:51:20 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1DCF.1D93C060"
Subject: RE: bevel overlay
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:51:15 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.115115.0>
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1DCF.1D93C060
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Michael,
I had tried that once, but I ended up with steam, maybe from the flux =
between the pieces.. Is there  a method you use.. Or maybe just a little =
bit of flux and I might have used too much.. I like the Glassmith =
Studio, my favorite pattern books, I always thought they just made their =
own bevels.. Glad to know  this  technique..=20
thanks up front,
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Michael Minchelli [SMTP:lsg@jerseycape.com]
Sent:	Thursday, January 08, 1998 10:23 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: bevel overlay

You can cut the blue glass to match the size of the bevel. Then use =
either
3/8" or 1/2" foil, hold the two pieces together and foil them as one =
piece.
I do it often myself. You can see some wonderful plating done by =
Glassmith
Studio's, their books are easily found.
Michael


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Subject: RE: Weller 100
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 13:20:34 -0200
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I also have the Hakko "Super Pro" 60 watt iron  #456 and I also love =
it.. Mike, I think my tip is tinned all the way.. Never had a problem =
with rot but I do  need to clean pretty often, but, when working, it has =
not failed to give a nice constant bead.

-----Original Message-----
From:	M. Savad [SMTP:morn@nac.net]
Sent:	Saturday, January 10, 1998 1:24 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Weller 100

Dianne G. Maddison wrote:
>=20
> Hi All,
> I also used a Weller 100 for many years with the same frustration that
> many of you are experiencing.  I used 1/8 tip because I was able to =
get
> in those small areas of copper foil.  I now use a Hakko 456 with 1/8"
> tip and I really love it.  No cooling and a nice even bead.
> Dianne
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


does your hakko tip have tinning all the way up? when i got mine, both
tips were tinned only 1/4 of the way up. which means it's really bad at
soldering. are all the tips like that? or are mine the unlucky ones...=20

---Mike Savad

--=20
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 11:24:22 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!Mosfunland
From: Mosfunland <Mosfunland@aol.com>
To: glass@BUNGI.COM
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:21:47 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.192147.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Hi Dani, sorry no laymens answer forthcoming from this end.....I was just
hoping they don't ask you what state of matter glass falls into.....things get
real tricky there....

Good luck....I  am also looking forward to the answer...
Maureen
mosfunland@aol.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 11:32:37 1998
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!live4games
From: "MiChea`l McClendon" <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: E-mail from MiChea`l !!!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 11:31:33 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.33133.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BD1DBB.4E0B5FA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Readers of "The List";
    I contacted my Technical support@worldnet.att.com  about "bombing" =
or Messing-up a lot of your e-mail programs!
The problem was, I had "HTML" set in sending mail, rather than "Plain =
Text".
HTML tells downloaders, that a "Attachment" (like pic's or files) is =
just that, which was messing-up some of your systems.
For this, PLEASE ACCEPT MY SINCERE APOLOGIES!

I haven't been "computing" as long as my husband, and was Unaware of a =
lot of SETTINGS in here (my computer).
Thanks again, and for all the responses.=20

If any of you are still having problems in this area, AT&T  (whether =
you're with them or not), say's to contact THEM, so they can check to =
see if the problem is at THEIR location.

Kindest regards, MiChea`l McClendon. (Spokane, WA)
live4games@worldnet.att.net=20

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BD1DBB.4E0B5FA0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear Readers of =
&quot;The=20
List&quot;;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I =
contacted my=20
Technical <U><FONT color=3D#0000ff>s</FONT></U><A=20
href=3D"mailto:upport@worldnet.att.com">upport@worldnet.att.com</A>&nbsp;=
 about=20
&quot;bombing&quot; or Messing-up a lot of your e-mail =
programs!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem was, I had &quot;HTML&quot; =
set in=20
sending mail, rather than &quot;Plain Text&quot;.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>HTML tells downloaders, that a=20
&quot;Attachment&quot; (like pic's or files) is just that, which was =
messing-up=20
some of your systems.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>For this, PLEASE ACCEPT MY SINCERE=20
APOLOGIES!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I haven't been &quot;computing&quot; as =
long as my=20
husband, and was Unaware of a lot of SETTINGS in here (my=20
computer).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Thanks again, and for all the =
responses.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If any of you are still having problems =
in this=20
area, AT&amp;T&nbsp; (whether you're with them or not), say's to contact =
THEM,=20
so they can check to see if the problem is at THEIR =
location.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Kindest regards, MiChea`l McClendon. =
(Spokane,=20
WA)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:live4games@worldnet.att.net">live4games@worldnet.att.net=20
</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_004A_01BD1DBB.4E0B5FA0--

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 12:46:05 1998
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X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "The Banker's House" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:47:12 -0600
Message-ID: <199801102051.OAA25384@ns.ictc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

For two days in a row now, my system has crashed when trying to bring in my
messages.  I am able to load them onto a web-located email system, and then
delete the offending message.  This wastes a lot of time!  What is causing
this?  Both messages have come from

 Michae'l McClendon (sp?) at
<live4games@worldnet.att.net>

I have noticed others are having similar problems.  I have not experienced
this before.  What can be done?

Dale

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 The Banker's House
 Home of the Buffalo Gang
 "It is better to spend money like there is no tomorrow,
 Than to spend tonight like there is no money!"
 <bankers@ictc.com>
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 12:49:56 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: usaor.net!3hounds
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'bungians'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: re: Bradley Sconce
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:50:50 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.135050.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


It is me again... I have to admit this.. Bradley did not make a designer =
error.. I guess a full week of work and being tired, looking at it at =
midnight,  I had a sight error.. Their design is great..
Now, I need help with the attachments..
The way I am looking at it, I will have a finish lamp base/sconce, the =
Wall sconce Electrical wiring kit ( includes brass reinforcement wall =
brackets, but the main piece is a Hanley Industries almost triangle =
backing which is plastic) and the Wall Sconce Base (cat.#/WSB10 ), has =
anyone ever assembles one of these and could you please give me =
instructions..  Yes, I will have an electrician for the final =
installation but I need to give him a finished /assembled product for =
hanging..=20
Thanks in advance,
Gloria

From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 12:57:42 1998
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X-Path: ee.net!pucky
From: "Sheba" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:03:15 -0500
Message-ID: <199801102100.QAA15497@ee.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mine crashed with the second msg from Micheal McClendon also.   Not sure what is causing this
problem....but it is a pain I agree.  This second msg.  was an apolgy about crashing everyones
emails.  Hopefully they will get it fixed on their end.

Sheila

----------
| From: The Banker's House <bankers@ictc.com>
| To: Bungi <glass@bungi.com>
| Subject: Sick of Crashing!
| Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 3:47 PM
| 
| For two days in a row now, my system has crashed when trying to bring in my
| messages.  I am able to load them onto a web-located email system, and then
| delete the offending message.  This wastes a lot of time!  What is causing
| this?  Both messages have come from
| 
|  Michae'l McClendon (sp?) at
| <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
| 
| I have noticed others are having similar problems.  I have not experienced
| this before.  What can be done?
| 
| Dale
| 
| $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
|  The Banker's House
|  Home of the Buffalo Gang
|  "It is better to spend money like there is no tomorrow,
|  Than to spend tonight like there is no money!"
|  <bankers@ictc.com>
|  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
| ----
| For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
| To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 13:19:00 1998
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X-Path: jerseycape.com!lsg
From: "Michael Minchelli" <lsg@jerseycape.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bevel overlay
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:05:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.11513.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Gloria... I have used this method with great success. When you foil the two
pieces you foil them together, as if they were just one thick piece. I'm
not sure if I made that clear before. Burnish it real well. I use flux as I
would usually, heat too. Make sure that there are no, absolutely no cracks
or open seams in the foil. Try again. Good Luck.
Michael


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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 13:38:21 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:34:48, -0500
Message-ID: <199801102134.QAA18728@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dani greer writes:

Thanks for the reply, Gary, but
I want to know WHY.  What is
happening on a chemical level?
What is it about flux that does all
these things, why can't I use some-
thing else, say, butter (or Parkay for that
matter!)  Why do the same character-
istics you describe apply to both
copper foil and lead?  Why can't
I "clean" my lead with a steel brush
and have the solder adhere without
flux?  It's more than just how clean
the metal is.  There's a chemical
reaction that occurs and I'd like to
get an understandable explanation
if that's possible.  =


Best regards,

Dani Greer

Bob says go to:

http://www.finishing.com/Library/flux.html

You will find a better explaintion than I can give. I would not be 
surprised if butter made a good flux. I know that beef fat (and 
others) makes a great flux except for the stink.

I get the idea that flux does three things.
1. Cleans the area to be soldered.
2. Prevents oxidation of the area after cleaning and before soldering.

3. Acts as a wetting agent between the solder and material to be 
soldered.

Lightly fluxed, Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
get what you don't pay for.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 
Mountain Meadow Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 13:59:04 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!DMR74
From: DMR74 <DMR74@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:57:20 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.215720.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

LOL I have to tell you this one I guess I never opened his mail cause
Live4games looked like an x-rated site name(I usually delete without even
opening) and I'm always getting that kind of junk mail
sorry Michael
deb
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 14:09:38 1998
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X-Path: ebtech.net!proffire
From: "Doug Scale" <proffire@ebtech.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:05:41 -0500
Message-ID: <199801102211.RAA02913@sleepy.ebtech.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



----------
> 
Several times I have also had my computer lock up when receiving
Bungi mail (on Microsoft Internet Explorer)  My service provider
suggested I also use Pegasus Mail which I do.  Now when I get to one
of the messages that lock, I simply load the rest on Pegasus.  For
some reason it always works..

If you can't find access to Pegasus contact me at proffire@ebtech.net
and I will try to download  info to you.


Doug Scale



Change is inevitable, except form vending machines.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 14:21:07 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:20:04 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.6204.0>
References: <<199801102134.QAA18728@mime4.prodigy.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

> Bob says go to:
> 
> http://www.finishing.com/Library/flux.html
I couldn't get this kept getting URL Not Found.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 14:39:32 1998
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 14:44:31 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: Int'l, Guild, of, Glass, Artists
Subject: Stained glass workshops, etc.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:51:14 +0000
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We just added a bunch of new, upcoming workshops to the events 
section of stainedglassbiz.com ... and we've made it easier to access 
and use, too.  Until now, you had to wait'n'wait'n'wait while the 
*whole *year! downloaded to your screen.  Now you just select which 
month of the upcoming year you'd like to know about and the info 
comes onto your screen much more quickly.

Go http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/ and click on "Events"  ... or 
click on events on our home page, the URL is below.

When will we fix it so you can just look for the *type of glass 
workshop you want ... say beadmaking workshops in March? Soon.

Albert Lewis, ExecDir
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 14:52:07 1998
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From: "Sheila" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: New Site
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:58:04 -0500
Message-ID: <199801102254.RAA01032@ee.net>
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Hi all !
  A friend of mine sent me this site that she found while browsing.  It has some stain glass to
look at.  Thought some of the stuff was really nice....it was worth looking  at.  
 http://www.ila.com/index2.htm    

Enjoy,
Sheila (another Lurker)
Ohio
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 15:10:58 1998
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From: "Jean " <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: bevel overlay
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 15:10:38 -0800
Message-ID: <199801102305.PAA29115@intergate.lasercom.net>
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my mail is jammed again! I will bet there is a message from MiChaell that
came in immediately following this one.


----------
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: 'glass@bungi.com'
Subject: RE: bevel overlay
Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 7:51 AM



Michael,
I had tried that once, but I ended up with steam, maybe from the flux
between the pieces.. Is there  a method you use.. Or maybe just a little
bit of flux and I might have used too much.. I like the Glassmith Studio,
my favorite pattern books, I always thought they just made their own
bevels.. Glad to know  this  technique.. 
thanks up front,
Gloria

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 15:22:36 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Stained glass workshops, etc.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:29:12 +0000
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> Go http://www.stainedglassbiz.com/ and click on "Events"  ... or 
> click on events on our home page, the URL is below.

Sorry, I was *sure I'd added my address slug.  Let's try that again.

Albert
International Guild of Glass Artists, Inc.
A 501(c)(6) not-for-profit association
54 Cherry St., PO Box 1809, North Adams MA 01247-1809
(413) 663-5512  Fax: (413) 663-7167
_____________________________________________
Home page     http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/
Members' work http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/links.htm
Sources Guide http://www.bungi.com/glass/igga/guide.htm
Guild Library http://www.aiap.com/amazon/



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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 15:52:41 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!bobnkate
From: "McDaniel" <bobnkate@ComCAT.COM>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: stuck mail
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:01:13 -0500
Message-ID: <199801102352.SAA14413@uz.ComCAT.COM>
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For the second time in what, two days, my mail (inbound) is stuck.  If I
find that it is caused by someone on this list--as it was last time--I will
have to unsu*b.  You can't answer me now, but be warned that it is
happening again.

Dr. Bob and The Loom Rat
bobnkate@comcat.com
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 16:11:08 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:07:05, -0500
Message-ID: <199801110007.TAA12022@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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> Bob says go to:
> 
> http://www.finishing.com/Library/flux.html
I couldn't get this kept getting URL Not Found.

I just tried it and it worked. Tried it by using a small l in Library 
and it did not work. That may be the problem. Some addresses are case 
sensitive and this may well be one of them.

Bob, who only knows a little about computers and less about browsers.


____
Bob Duchesneau (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
get what you don't pay for.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 
Mountain Meadow Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 16:41:26 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: stuck mail (let's forgive)
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:48:46 +0000
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> If I find that it is caused by someone on this list--as it was last time--
> I will have to unsu*b.  


I said a similar thing to my cardiologist last time I saw him. "If I 
find that modern life with its stresses and strains is having an 
effect on my heart, I'll have to commit suicide."  <g>

Be patient, Bob. He's already apologized and has fixed the problem 
after working laboriously, furiously and shame-facedly (if that's a 
word) to "amend his ways." It was a mistake. He's human; so are we 
all. This email/internet stuff can be confusing, even to me, and I'm 
even semi-literate in computer stuff.

Albert

P.S. Isn't it funny how quickly all of us have come to not only 
demand, but *depend on email and the internet? Two ... three years 
ago, how many of us had ever even *heard of the thing? - A

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 16:43:57 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:51:31 +0000
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> (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
> get what you don't pay for.)

I seldom read slugs but this one caught my eye and made me laugh. 
Good'un. <s> True, too.

Why is it, Bob, that every time I download email yours is the first 
message in the list? <g> Always! Must be karma or something.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 16:45:50 1998
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X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: Zane Cimera <sigglass@nb.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:47:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.144727.0>
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The same guy crashed me - but I did find a way around it - I just added
Netscape and it is able to handle the mail whereas MS internet explorer
cannot (for whatever reason).  You can switch back and forth, so I would
advise going out to the internet and downloading it (sorry, I can't tell
you where I have seen it for free as a download, but I know it is there
- I actually owned the disk so I installed from that).

Zane

The Banker's House wrote:
> 
> For two days in a row now, my system has crashed when trying to bring in my
> messages.  I am able to load them onto a web-located email system, and then
> delete the offending message.  This wastes a lot of time!  What is causing
> this?  Both messages have come from
> 
>  Michae'l McClendon (sp?) at
> <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
> 
> I have noticed others are having similar problems.  I have not experienced
> this before.  What can be done?
> 
> Dale
> 
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>  The Banker's House
>  Home of the Buffalo Gang
>  "It is better to spend money like there is no tomorrow,
>  Than to spend tonight like there is no money!"
>  <bankers@ictc.com>
>  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> ----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 16:49:47 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:48:42 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.84842.0>
References: <<199801110007.TAA12022@mime4.prodigy.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

BOB DUCHESNEAU wrote:

> 
> I just tried it and it worked. Tried it by using a small l in Library
> and it did not work. That may be the problem. Some addresses are case
> sensitive and this may well be one of them.
> 
Thank you, it was my fault.  I didn't see the capital L when I was
putting in on my other server so I could bookmark it.
I have very little perception of distance and direction, Guess I can add
web addresses to that list.
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 17:52:11 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!Shopfreaks
From: Shopfreaks <Shopfreaks@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Hot Glass Horizons (was RE: where is it?)
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 20:42:01 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.1421.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I went to Hot Glass Horizons in Corning last year for the first time and this
is what I have to say about it....

If you enjoy having instructors who are nationally recognized, are a blast to
hang out with;    oh, and by the way the classes are very good also....then I
say if you can swing it financially, by all means GO!  Never before have I
felt so at home with such a  large group of people.   In fact, in their flyer
they printed a quote from me (Corny.) Something I wrote on a commentary we had
to fill out.

It's expensive, but a good place for networking and making glass friends.

Theresa Schember
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 18:18:52 1998
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean  Norenberg" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:18:32 -0800
Message-ID: <199801110213.SAA09879@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Dale (bankers@ictc.com), it worked, thanks for the suggestion.  Took up
most of the afternoon to get it all figured out, but it's done.  After
crashing again (with msg from Michae'l McClenden) I went to Yahoo mail, got
an address there and had my mail from this address picked up there, that
cleared MiChae'ls' message from here and I'm back in business. Thx again
Dale. Sure beats having to call the provider and tell them, 'Help, I did it
again'!



MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to Bungi until
you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a fun way to
spend the afternoon!
 
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 18:25:46 1998
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X-Path: yahoo.com!glswrks
From: B Norman <glswrks@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: E-mail from MiChea`l !!!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:24:54 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.102454.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


MiChea'l, why do your messages come thru with attachements?  I, as a
matter of course, delete all message attachements from unknown names.
Can you, perhaps, restructure your messages?




---MiChea`l McClendon  wrote:

   ATTACHMENT
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 18:37:10 1998
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X-Path: yahoo.com!glswrks
From: B Norman <glswrks@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: New Site
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 18:36:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.103614.0>
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Precedence: bulk



Thanks, Sheila, for sharing a  good site.

Bonnie
 (yet another Lurker)
--------------------


---Sheila  wrote:
>
> Hi all !
>   A friend of mine sent me this site that she found while browsing. 
It has some stain glass to
> look at.  Thought some of the stuff was really nice....it was worth
looking  at.  
>  http://www.ila.com/index2.htm    
> 
> Enjoy,
> Sheila (another Lurker)
> Ohio
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 19:37:50 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 16:48:42 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.84842.0>
References: <<199801110007.TAA12022@mime4.prodigy.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

BOB DUCHESNEAU wrote:

> 
> I just tried it and it worked. Tried it by using a small l in Library
> and it did not work. That may be the problem. Some addresses are case
> sensitive and this may well be one of them.
> 
Thank you, it was my fault.  I didn't see the capital L when I was
putting in on my other server so I could bookmark it.
I have very little perception of distance and direction, Guess I can add
web addresses to that list.
----
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 19:38:23 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: stuck mail (let's forgive)
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:48:46 +0000
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> If I find that it is caused by someone on this list--as it was last time--
> I will have to unsu*b.  


I said a similar thing to my cardiologist last time I saw him. "If I 
find that modern life with its stresses and strains is having an 
effect on my heart, I'll have to commit suicide."  <g>

Be patient, Bob. He's already apologized and has fixed the problem 
after working laboriously, furiously and shame-facedly (if that's a 
word) to "amend his ways." It was a mistake. He's human; so are we 
all. This email/internet stuff can be confusing, even to me, and I'm 
even semi-literate in computer stuff.

Albert

P.S. Isn't it funny how quickly all of us have come to not only 
demand, but *depend on email and the internet? Two ... three years 
ago, how many of us had ever even *heard of the thing? - A

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 20:01:01 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:51:31 +0000
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> (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
> get what you don't pay for.)

I seldom read slugs but this one caught my eye and made me laugh. 
Good'un. <s> True, too.

Why is it, Bob, that every time I download email yours is the first 
message in the list? <g> Always! Must be karma or something.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 20:16:01 1998
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X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: Zane Cimera <sigglass@nb.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 19:47:27 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.144727.0>
References: <<199801102051.OAA25384@ns.ictc.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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The same guy crashed me - but I did find a way around it - I just added
Netscape and it is able to handle the mail whereas MS internet explorer
cannot (for whatever reason).  You can switch back and forth, so I would
advise going out to the internet and downloading it (sorry, I can't tell
you where I have seen it for free as a download, but I know it is there
- I actually owned the disk so I installed from that).

Zane

The Banker's House wrote:
> 
> For two days in a row now, my system has crashed when trying to bring in my
> messages.  I am able to load them onto a web-located email system, and then
> delete the offending message.  This wastes a lot of time!  What is causing
> this?  Both messages have come from
> 
>  Michae'l McClendon (sp?) at
> <live4games@worldnet.att.net>
> 
> I have noticed others are having similar problems.  I have not experienced
> this before.  What can be done?
> 
> Dale
> 
> $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
>  The Banker's House
>  Home of the Buffalo Gang
>  "It is better to spend money like there is no tomorrow,
>  Than to spend tonight like there is no money!"
>  <bankers@ictc.com>
>  $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 20:33:28 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 98 23:34:43 -0500
Message-ID: <199801110432.XAA25171@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Albert wrote:
>> (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
>> get what you don't pay for.)
>
>I seldom read slugs but this one caught my eye and made me laugh. 
>Good'un. <s> True, too.

Hey Albert, today all your E-Mail is coming through twice!
Guess today I'm getting double what I'm not paying for!

Suzanne 
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 21:17:49 1998
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X-Path: pobox.com!Northernlights
From: Northernlights <Northernlights@pobox.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Free Netscape Download Areas
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:19:13 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.171913.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.144727.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Been reading the messages about e-mails crashing your systems.  I
haven't had any problems and I only use Netscape for my e-mail.  Here
are two links for free downloads...the first one is for Netscape
Communicator  http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow
and the second one is for Netscape Gold
http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow

Netscape Communicator is the newest and "fanciest" and I don't have much
experience at it, but I've installed it on my folks computer and they're
happy with it. I've been using Netscape Gold for the last couple of
years and like it just fine.

Just thought I'd help with locating the page for the free downloads!!!
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 22:18:54 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:05:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.2057.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.21213.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just to add to the confusion here are my experiences with the Weller 100w
iron.
(For years my only iron was a Sears 200W iron, and prior to that a
Hexacon 250w.  Note the trend here......It's not that I wouldn't rather
be using the big guns, but my arm likes the smaller irons much
better....Although I must confess that for the big stuff I still go with
a larger iron.)

1)  I think that it can provide as much heat as the Weller 80w when used
with the hotter tips.
2)  As far as things seizing, I've had all kinds of things seize on them.
 The collar that holds the tip has seized twice, but now I use anti
seize.  More interestingly, I had one of the tips expand at the bottom
around the bottom of the bi-metalic plug so that I almost couldn't get it
out of the iron without destroying the iron.  (This was not dirt or
oxides, the tip actually expanded.)
3) I do use a temperature control with them for operations like edge
beading that require less heat, but I never use a rheostat type control. 
All of our temperature controls are of the same type as the Glastar
control, which cycles the current on and off periodically, rather than
cutting the voltage.
4)Years ago I read an article that said that rheostat type temperature
controls damage heating elements, and at the time it all made sense to
me, but to tell the truth, I don't remember why.  (There are other
reasons I prefer the cycling type controls.)
5)More than once I have forgotten to turn my Weller 100 off overnight and
any other iron would have burned up the tip.
6)  Sometimes when you have heat supply problems you need to carefully
inspect your iron tip. (This applies to any iron.) If there is a pinhole
in the plating, the copper core may be disolving away as you work.  The
steel jacket of the tip is not able to supply enough heat if the copper 
is gone and the tip is hollow.
7)  I pretty much always use  a wide tip.  If you use a small tip it
can't conduct heat to the work fast enough.  Think of it as a hose for
heat.  

Gary Dodge                      Dodge Studio designs

On Fri, 09 Jan 98 13:02:13 PST Dawn <dawnm@mustang.hwy66.com> writes:
>Hello everyone,
>
>I believe my problems with my soldering stem from my iron not being 
>hot
> enough.  Sometimes when I'm trying to smooth out a bead it just does 
>not want to melt as I go to pull it through and almost have to drag 
>the 
>tip, which is causing a wavy effect.
>
>I'm using a Weller 100 with a 700 degree tip.  Should I try the 800 
>degree tip?
>
>For those that use the Weller 100, what temperature tip do you use for 
>
>foil work?
>
>I have the iron plugged into an extension cord (just one).  Will that 
>affect 
>the power so much that the tip won't heat enough?
>
>Should I buy another kind of iron that uses a rheostat, instead of the 
>
>Weller 100?
>
>Also, what size tip do you typically use for foil work?  The tip it 
>came 
>with (3/8") seems way too wide.  I'm usually using a 1/4" tip.
>
>Anti-Seize - Is this product necessary?  Would a little WD-40 or 
>something around the barrel of the iron or the shaft of the grinder do 
>the 
>same thing?  I thought about taking my tip off my Weller 100 when I'm 
>not using the iron to help protect the tip, as well as prevent it 
>freezing 
>up.  I have my extras stored in a ziplock bag.  Would it be harmful to 
>the 
>iron for any reason to be stored without the tip?  Damage to the 
>barrell?
>
>Appreciate any insight I can get into my soldering problems.
>Dawn
>----
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>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 22:18:58 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:43:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.19435.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.20315.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dani,

If you don't mind a bit of speculation here I'll tell you what I THINK I
MAY know.... or something like that.

Firstly every flux I have ever seen is based on zinc chloride, the
chemical formula is ZnCl.  You can make pure ZnCl yourself.  Just buy a
bottle of Muriatic acid at the hardware store.  Muriatic acid is used to
clean all kinds of stuff including concrete and is really just a dilute
form of Hydrochloric acid (HCl).  Drop a chunk of zinc came into the acid
and wait.  (NEVER do this without loosening the cap on the bottle.)The
Zinc will fizz like Alka-Seltzer.  In time the Muriatic acid will change
from its' original yellow color to clear or white.  (If you added enough
zinc, that is.)  You now have zinc chloride.  Now if I remember my
chemistry, I think it's a salt at this point.  To get into the area of
pure speculation, I have noticed that as a bottle of tinned acid, (that's
what you call acid with zinc already disolved in it) sits on a shelf, it
turns back yellow in time and you need to add more zinc to neutralize it
again.  The laws of conservation of matter say that the original zinc
must still be there, but it now can disolve more.  I don't know if there
is some kind of buffering effect going on here or what, but I think the
implication is that even though it should be neutral, perhaps flux is
still acidic and therefore the cleaning is accomplished by the acid.

(If you like to play and don't mind breaking a few laws, scratch a hole
through the copper skin of a recent vintage penny to expose the zinc
inside.  Drop it into the acid and the inside will disolve, leaving you a
penny skin.)

As far as why cleaning by abraisive physical means does not work as well,
I think it is largely because no cleaning cloth can get to all the places
, on a molecular level that the flux can reach.  Kind of between
molecules and into microscopic pores and all that. 

Pure zinc chloride alone is not a great flux.  It spits and sputters
excessively boils off and dries rapidly and is generally not well
behaved, although some people use it and others sell it.  If you wantflux
to do it's best it must remain wet.  The next ingrediewnt you need to
make a good flux is something that doesn't dry up.....I may be using the
wrong term here, but I'll call it a wetting agent.  Paste flux uses a
petroleum jelly like product as the wetting agent, and while it is
probably the best at it's job, in my opinion it is not worth the
difficulties that are involved in trying to remove it.

The next best wetting agent I know of is glycerin.  In fact the best flux
you could ever want can be mixed up using just these ingredients.  One
part tinned Muriatic to seven parts glycerin.  That's it!  Easy to solder
with and easy to clean off.  The only drawback is that it is a bit smoky
and you need ventilation.  I used it for years until I lost my source for
industrial grade  glycerin and the pharmaceutical grade stuff is just too
expensive.

It is important that it stay wet because hot solder and copper oxidize
rapidly in air.  You can watch a hot iron turn colors right before your
eyes.  If everything is wet it is not exposed to the oxygen in the air
that would cause freshly cleaned copper foil to oxidize before solder
could even bond to it. (No I have never tried abraisive cleaning followed
by the wetting agent alone, but it would be a worthy experiment.)

I'm starting to loose track of where I'm going here, but hope some of
this makes sense.

Gary Dodge                     Dodge Studio Designs

On Sat, 10 Jan 1998 01:03:15 -0500 "Michael J. Greer"
<GreerStudios@compuserve.com> writes:
>Thanks for the reply, Gary, but
>I want to know WHY.  What is
>happening on a chemical level?
>What is it about flux that does all
>these things, why can't I use some-
>thing else, say, butter (or Parkay for that
>matter!)  Why do the same character-
>istics you describe apply to both
>copper foil and lead?  Why can't
>I "clean" my lead with a steel brush
>and have the solder adhere without
>flux?  It's more than just how clean
>the metal is.  There's a chemical
>reaction that occurs and I'd like to
>get an understandable explanation
>if that's possible.  =
>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/  =
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
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From owner-glass Sat Jan 10 23:00:22 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!ncscoutr
From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:56:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.175634.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.20315.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Michael J. Greer wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Gary, but
> I want to know WHY.  What is
> happening on a chemical level?
> What is it about flux that does all
> these things, why can't I use some-
> thing else, say, butter (or Parkay for that
> matter!)  Why do the same character-
> istics you describe apply to both
> copper foil and lead?  Why can't
> I "clean" my lead with a steel brush
> and have the solder adhere without
> flux?  It's more than just how clean
> the metal is.  There's a chemical
> reaction that occurs and I'd like to
> get an understandable explanation
> if that's possible.  =
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/  =
> 
> ----

Dear Dani,

Here's what I can give you on the subjest, although oversimplified:

"Flux is a substance usually with an acidic base which is used in
soldering, brazing, and welding to promote fusion of the metals.  The
acid in the composition of the flux will react with the lead or foil to
clean them and free them from oxides so that the fusion fo the different
metals can occur.  Flux will also change the rate of transfer of
particles across the surface of the metals.  This is what it causes the
phenomenon which Gary describes as a "reduction of surface tension on
the molten solder."  The dictionary definition for this is "FLUX - 
(Physics) The rate of flow of any fluid across a given area; (Metal) Any
substance that is mixed with a metal, etc. to facilitate its fusion;
also a substance used to render colours fusible in enameling and the
colouring of porcelain & glass." [excerpted from the "Shorter Oxford
English Dictionary", p723.]

If you require a more explicit description I would suggest a high school
physics teacher or college physics student perhaps could do it better
justice?

Hope this helps a bit anyhow...

Ciao for now!
V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island, NC USA
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 00:24:53 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: aol.com!ncscoutr
From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 01:56:34 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan10.175634.0>
References: <<1998Jan9.20315.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Michael J. Greer wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reply, Gary, but
> I want to know WHY.  What is
> happening on a chemical level?
> What is it about flux that does all
> these things, why can't I use some-
> thing else, say, butter (or Parkay for that
> matter!)  Why do the same character-
> istics you describe apply to both
> copper foil and lead?  Why can't
> I "clean" my lead with a steel brush
> and have the solder adhere without
> flux?  It's more than just how clean
> the metal is.  There's a chemical
> reaction that occurs and I'd like to
> get an understandable explanation
> if that's possible.  =
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/  =
> 
> ----

Dear Dani,

Here's what I can give you on the subjest, although oversimplified:

"Flux is a substance usually with an acidic base which is used in
soldering, brazing, and welding to promote fusion of the metals.  The
acid in the composition of the flux will react with the lead or foil to
clean them and free them from oxides so that the fusion fo the different
metals can occur.  Flux will also change the rate of transfer of
particles across the surface of the metals.  This is what it causes the
phenomenon which Gary describes as a "reduction of surface tension on
the molten solder."  The dictionary definition for this is "FLUX - 
(Physics) The rate of flow of any fluid across a given area; (Metal) Any
substance that is mixed with a metal, etc. to facilitate its fusion;
also a substance used to render colours fusible in enameling and the
colouring of porcelain & glass." [excerpted from the "Shorter Oxford
English Dictionary", p723.]

If you require a more explicit description I would suggest a high school
physics teacher or college physics student perhaps could do it better
justice?

Hope this helps a bit anyhow...

Ciao for now!
V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island, NC USA
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 02:14:35 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 05:21:34 +0000
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> Hey Albert, today all your E-Mail is coming through twice!
> Guess today I'm getting double what I'm not paying for!

I'm only sending it once, so there must be a hitch in the net's 
gitalong.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 02:15:10 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 05:21:34 +0000
Message-ID: <m0xrKOl-0000GfC@daver.bungi.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


> The same guy crashed me - but I did find a way around it - I just added
> Netscape and it is able to handle the mail whereas MS internet explorer
> cannot (for whatever reason). 

Pegasus Mail handles those messages all right, too. MSIE can't do a 
lot of things, but it's free. Sometimes you get what you pay for. <s>

Albert
 

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From: Yegnim <Yegnim@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:07:48 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.12748.0>
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Zane,
Is the hexagon hatchet iron heavy? or heavier than the standard iron?  I am
interested in purchasing one, but do not want any added weight.  Thanking you
in advance.
Lenore
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X-Path: ccti.net!don
From: "Don McDonald" <don@ccti.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <don@eve.corp.ccti.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 07:54:57 +0000
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> MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to Bungi until
> you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a fun way to
> spend the afternoon!

There have only been 4 or 5 posts about MiChae'l McClenden's messages 
causing a system crash.  Seems the problem lies not with Mr. 
McClenden's mail but the readers experiencing the problem.  To date, 
I've had no difficulty reading his mail.  It seems that most of those 
experiencing the problems are using a Web Browser to read e-mail 
(Netscape and Internet Explorer) rather than a mail reader.  This may 
be the problem, not the originator of the message.  If any of you who 
are having problems reading or receiving e-mail, please feel free to 
contact me and I'll see if we can work it out.  Asking someone to 
refrain from giving input because 4 or 5 people can't filter and/or 
translate is not right, especially when that person has attempted to 
contribute to the conversations on the list.

MiChae'l, please keep contributing!  We will work out the bugs in 
those programs.



Don M. McDonald
Web Design
Corporate Communications Technology
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 06:01:41 1998
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From: "Don McDonald" <don@ccti.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <don@eve.corp.ccti.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:05:20 +0000
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> Pegasus Mail handles those messages all right, too. MSIE can't do a 
> lot of things, but it's free. Sometimes you get what you pay for. <s>
> 
> Albert

Pegasus Mail is free, too. 

Don M. McDonald
Web Design
Corporate Communications Technology
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 06:13:39 1998
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X-Path: jerseycape.com!lsg
From: "Michael Minchelli" <lsg@jerseycape.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Fw: bevel overlay
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:56:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.35630.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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----------
> From: glass@bungi.com
> To: Lsg
> Subject: Re: bevel overlay
> Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 4:32 PM
> 
> 
> Gloria... I have used this method with great success. When you foil the
two
> pieces you foil them together, as if they were just one thick piece. I'm
> not sure if I made that clear before. Burnish it real well. I use flux as
I
> would usually, heat too. Make sure that there are no, absolutely no
cracks
> or open seams in the foil. Try again. Good Luck.
> Michael
> 
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 06:59:49 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: the globe
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:53:36 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.45336.0>
References: <<m0xrKOk-0000EsC@daver.bungi.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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i don't know how many of you vistited the stained glass biz lately, but
htey have a link to some guy who built this globe
http://www.enol.com/~bbassett/globe/globepix.htm check it out. this is
definetly somthing you have to do with a grinder and foil.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 07:15:44 1998
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From: maruca@netaxs.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:15:10 -0500 (EST)
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On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Albert Lewis wrote:

> 
> > The same guy crashed me - but I did find a way around it - I just added
> > Netscape and it is able to handle the mail whereas MS internet explorer
> > cannot (for whatever reason). 
> 
> Pegasus Mail handles those messages all right, too. MSIE can't do a 
> lot of things, but it's free. Sometimes you get what you pay for. <s>
> 
> Albert
>  

Or, sometimes you've got too many bells and whistles. I get all those
posts just fine with my Unix C shell account reading with PINE. You can't
get any cheaper than this text-only system. Right, Shirley? (one of our
resident ISPs who should be teased into making a statement right about
now)

Mary

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 07:55:01 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:02:01 +0000
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> Or, sometimes you've got too many bells and whistles. I get all those
> posts just fine with my Unix C shell account reading with PINE. You can't
> get any cheaper than this text-only system. 

Yeah, I still use Tapcis for Compuserve messaging. It's lightning 
fast and who needs all those graphics and sounds anyway? I go onto 
CIS to get info and info is what I get! A single keystroke gets all my 
messages, the headers from other messages that may be of interest to 
me, sends any outbound messages to the proper forums and logs the 
heck off! I love it. The CIS icon's sitting on my desktop, but I 
never, ever (well, hardly ever) use it.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 07:55:36 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Sick of Crashing!
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:02:02 +0000
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> Pegasus Mail is free, too. 

Isn't it shareware? Which (to me) means if you decide to keep it and 
use it, you should pay for it? Seems to me that I paid for mine, but 
maybe I'm thinking of some other software; I quite often try then 
buy.

Oh, you're right. I went to download.com just to check. It's free. 
Okay, some things are worth more than what you pay for them. <s>

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:12:15 1998
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:11:34 PST
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[In the message entitled "Re: Crash Cleared Again!" on Jan 11,  7:54, "Don McDonald" writes:]
> > MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to Bungi until
> > you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a fun way to
> > spend the afternoon!
> 
> There have only been 4 or 5 posts about MiChae'l McClenden's messages 
> causing a system crash.  Seems the problem lies not with Mr. 
> McClenden's mail but the readers experiencing the problem.  To date, 

> translate is not right, especially when that person has attempted to 
> contribute to the conversations on the list.
> 
> MiChae'l, please keep contributing!  We will work out the bugs in 
> those programs.

Just to let you all know,...she has unsubscribed and is deeply hurt
by the attitude of some people on this list.  Please let's try to be
a bit more considerate.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:13:28 1998
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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
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Subject: RE: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:44:29 -0200
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1E82.39D6C480
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I have not crashed.  But I have not tried to open any of his messages.. Is the crash occurring when you try to open his message.
Thanks
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jean  Norenberg [SMTP:jean@lasercom.net]
Sent:	Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:19 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Crash Cleared Again!


Dale (bankers@ictc.com), it worked, thanks for the suggestion.  Took up
most of the afternoon to get it all figured out, but it's done.  After
crashing again (with msg from Michae'l McClenden) I went to Yahoo mail, got
an address there and had my mail from this address picked up there, that
cleared MiChae'ls' message from here and I'm back in business. Thx again
Dale. Sure beats having to call the provider and tell them, 'Help, I did it
again'!



MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to Bungi until
you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a fun way to
spend the afternoon!
 
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:13:41 1998
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Subject: RE: bevel overlay
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:49:27 -0200
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------ =_NextPart_000_01BD1E82.3D8A56A0
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I responded to a message yesterday from Michael.. (I typed Michael in my =
header, it could have been MiChael, did not save the message I replied =
to.. Trying to keep my mail uncluttered)..=20
Hope you are okay, I see no attachments to my reply to you.
Gloria

-----Original Message-----
From:	Jean  [SMTP:jean@lasercom.net]
Sent:	Saturday, January 10, 1998 9:11 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: bevel overlay

my mail is jammed again! I will bet there is a message from MiChaell =
that
came in immediately following this one.


----------
From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: 'glass@bungi.com'
Subject: RE: bevel overlay
Date: Saturday, January 10, 1998 7:51 AM



Michael,
I had tried that once, but I ended up with steam, maybe from the flux
between the pieces.. Is there  a method you use.. Or maybe just a little
bit of flux and I might have used too much.. I like the Glassmith =
Studio,
my favorite pattern books, I always thought they just made their own
bevels.. Glad to know  this  technique..=20
thanks up front,
Gloria

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From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BD1E82.3FA1EC00"
Subject: RE: bevel overlay
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:53:46 -0200
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.85346.0>
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Thank you Michael,
I think my problem was that I did not use 1/2 inch foil.. 
Does the 1/2 come only in a copper backings.. Is so, does it show with the bevels in the final piece if you are patining it in black..
Thanks
Gloria
-----Original Message-----
From:	Michael Minchelli [SMTP:lsg@jerseycape.com]
Sent:	Saturday, January 10, 1998 7:05 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: bevel overlay

Gloria... I have used this method with great success. When you foil the two
pieces you foil them together, as if they were just one thick piece. I'm
not sure if I made that clear before. Burnish it real well. I use flux as I
would usually, heat too. Make sure that there are no, absolutely no cracks
or open seams in the foil. Try again. Good Luck.
Michael


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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:21:33 1998
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X-Path: gnt.net!lynb
From: Lyn Butler <lynb@gnt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Subject: Ugly patina
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:21:40 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.102140.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

New kid on the block here-- Got a problem with my patina. After
carefully fluxing, soldering, cleaning and drying, my black patina looks
mottled brown or gray. What's wrong? Would appreciate any help.

Was recommended to subscribe to this list and since Friday I've become
addicted to it. It's really interesting to read about what everyone has
to say. Have learned several interesting things. This is a veritable
"gold mine" of information. Will pass this on to my daughter and sister
who also do glass.

I also use Netscape and have had no problem receiving mail.

Thanks for your help,

Lyn

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:35:55 1998
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X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:37:24 -0500
Message-ID: <199801111632.LAA02880@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Gary,

You didn't add to the confusion, you made some points very clear that I
think people are not aware of (restrictive rheostats vs. those which cycle
power).

Thank you for passing on your knowledge.

Zane


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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:39:40 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:39:17 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: yahoo.com!geneowens
From: Bunglas <geneowens@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Fwd: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:38:48 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.03848.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> 
> ---Don McDonald  wrote:
> >
> > > MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to
> Bungi until
> > > you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! 
> > 
> > There have only been 4 or 5 posts about MiChae'l >McClenden's
> messages 
> 
 Don, go back and check your mail again. There have been far more than
 ". . . 4  or  5 posts......."!  And,  I suspect that if everyone who
 has had the  problem were to write in we would find more than we could
 imagine!
> 
> >. . .  especially when that person has attempted to 
> > contribute to the conversations on the list.
> > 
> > Don M. McDonald
> > Web Design
> > Corporate Communications Technology

 Which is what we are all TRYING to do, "contribute to the list".  It
 is unfortunate that we are being prevented from doing this by ONE
 persons mail program. Is it really fair to ask a dozen people to
 change mail programs when only ONE persons messages are causing this
 trouble? 
 
 I find it offensive that a couple of you  (who take this crashing so
 non-challantly)  are  critical of those of us who have had to spend
 hours (in some cases entire days!) with a crashed system!
 
 We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG
 problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system
 down for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on
 resolving the problem. 

I have now set up a mail account with YahooMail (FREE) just for my
Bungi mail. I do not choose to change my mail program because of one
person (I like what I have!), I want to continue the Bungi
relationship, and I do NOT want to spend another day untangling these
problems. If anyone out there has a better solution, please share it
with the group.  We appear to need help!
Bonnie
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:43:43 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:43:15 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:45:13 -0500
Message-ID: <199801111640.LAA17149@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Have you ever used a barrel cutter vs. a pistol grip?  The Hexacon iron is
heavier but it doesn't feel heavier - it just feels "different" the same
way a pistol grip cutter feels different from a barrel cutter.  I don't
know what part of the country you are from, but if you have several
retailers I would call them and find out if any either carry the Hexacon or
have one that they use and find out if you can try it.

It is a larger outlay of money, but I think it is worth it (but I'm
prejudiced, of course, since we do a lot of commission work and the savings
in time [beading] and because it is a steady heat iron make it invaluable).

Regardless, I would definitely try it out first prior to purchasing - we
have some people who just don't like changing from whatever they were
trained on and the Hexacon does take some getting used to before it feesl
comfortable.

----------
> From: Yegnim <Yegnim@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Weller 100
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 7:07 AM
> 
> Zane,
> Is the hexagon hatchet iron heavy? or heavier than the standard iron?  I
am
> interested in purchasing one, but do not want any added weight.  Thanking
you
> in advance.
> Lenore
> ----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:49:11 1998
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X-Path: worldnet.att.net!tcraft
From: "Tom Craft" <tcraft@worldnet.att.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:51:10 -0700
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.25110.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Arthurs <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Friday, January 09, 1998 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: Weller 100


>Hi everyone,
>
>I have a Weller 100 and I was wondering whether anyone else has
>experienced this phenomenon.  When I am soldering, the solder bead sets
>so that it looks like it's been sandblasted with very fine pitting.
>I've tried new solder, flux, copper foil, and a new solder tip but I
>still get the same sort of bead.  I used a girlfriend's Weller 100 over
>Christmas and I didn't get that effect so I think it's something to do
>with the iron heat control. The iron is about 8 years old. I have no
>complaints about how fast the bead runs and I didn't notice any bead
>speed difference when I used my friend's iron

If the iron is not hot enough it can cause the flux to boil instead of being
burnt off. What you may be seeing are craters formed by the flux vapor
trying to escape.

Tom


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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:51:14 1998
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	id <m0xrQb6-0000ksa@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:50:52 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: nb.net!sigglass
From: "Zane" <sigglass@nb.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Ugly patina
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:52:43 -0500
Message-ID: <199801111648.LAA19996@uranium.nb.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Gary Dodge probably has the answer but in the meantime, three possibilities
are as follows:

1.	A certain manufacturer of inexpensive patina recently messed up a batch
and shipped it anyway.  Their old batch works fine, but the new batch is
"weaker" and is giving us fits.
2.	Did you use 60/40 or 50/50?  60/40 should patina up better since there
is more tin in the mix
3.	I assume your project was spotlessly cleaned, but if not or if still
damp in areas, that can be a problem.

----------
> From: Lyn Butler <lynb@gnt.net>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Ugly patina
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 5:21 AM
> 
> New kid on the block here-- Got a problem with my patina. After
> carefully fluxing, soldering, cleaning and drying, my black patina looks
> mottled brown or gray. What's wrong? Would appreciate any help.
> 
> Was recommended to subscribe to this list and since Friday I've become
> addicted to it. It's really interesting to read about what everyone has
> to say. Have learned several interesting things. This is a veritable
> "gold mine" of information. Will pass this on to my daughter and sister
> who also do glass.
> 
> I also use Netscape and have had no problem receiving mail.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> Lyn
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 08:59:57 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean  Norenberg" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:59:45 -0800
Message-ID: <199801111654.IAA05856@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Gloria,
No, the crash occurs when the message becomes stuck upon trying to download
(or retrieve) mail.  It hangs up in the system and nothing can get thru.

Note: MiChea'l is a 'her' not a 'him', a mistake we are all making.

----------
> From: Gloria & George <3hounds@usaor.net>
> To: 'glass@bungi.com'
> Subject: RE: Crash Cleared Again!
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 4:44 AM
> 
> 
> 
> I have not crashed.  But I have not tried to open any of his messages..
Is the crash occurring when you try to open his message.
> Thanks
> Gloria
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jean  Norenberg [SMTP:jean@lasercom.net]
> Sent:	Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:19 AM
> To:	glass@bungi.com
> Subject:	Crash Cleared Again!
> 
> 
> Dale (bankers@ictc.com), 

it worked, thanks for the suggestion.  Took up
> most of the afternoon to get it all figured out, but it's done.  After
> crashing again (with msg from MiChae'l McClenden) I went to Yahoo mail,
got
> an address there and had my mail from this address picked up there, that
> cleared MiChae'ls' message from here and I'm back in business. Thx again
> Dale. Sure beats having to call the provider and tell them, 'Help, I did
it
> again'!
 
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 09:07:54 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: yahoo.com!tginevra
From: Teri Ginevra <tginevra@yahoo.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:06:35 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.1635.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk




Glenna, I am with you.

I have recently subscribed and find the input invaluable.

I think some people have been quite nasty regarding this issue. I am
not very computer literal and wouldn't like it to happen to me. 

T Ginevra

---Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com> wrote:
>
> [In the message entitled "Re: Crash Cleared Again!" on Jan 11, 
7:54, "Don McDonald" writes:]
> > > MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to
Bungi until
> > > you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a
fun way to
> > > spend the afternoon!
> > 
> > There have only been 4 or 5 posts about MiChae'l McClenden's
messages 
> > causing a system crash.  Seems the problem lies not with Mr. 
> > McClenden's mail but the readers experiencing the problem.  To
date, 
> 
> > translate is not right, especially when that person has attempted
to 
> > contribute to the conversations on the list.
> > 
> > MiChae'l, please keep contributing!  We will work out the bugs in 
> > those programs.
> 
> Just to let you all know,...she has unsubscribed and is deeply hurt
> by the attitude of some people on this list.  Please let's try to be
> a bit more considerate.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 

_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 11:38:06 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ecentral.com!glass1
From: "Diane Schell" <glass1@ecentral.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Crashed computers
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:33:48 -0700
Message-ID: <199801111943.MAA21968@preytor.ecentral.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I did not know the problem was coming from here, but both of my computers
mail crashed twice in the last few days. I was using internet explorer.
Hopefully, these last messages will help my server or my computer repair
person solve the problem. Diane

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 11:51:54 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:51:28 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: aol.com!MMcclen740
From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:49:47 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.194947.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer (for
the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR THIS
GROUP.
Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at hand...
Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?

Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.

"Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 12:25:34 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:24:59 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ee.net!pucky
From: "Sheila" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Free Netscape Download Areas
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:31:19 -0500
Message-ID: <199801112027.PAA19546@ee.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Thanks for the site downloads.  I intend to d/l Netscape sometime this week.  

Sheila
Ohio

----------
| From: Northernlights <Northernlights@pobox.com>
| To: glass@bungi.com
| Subject: Free Netscape Download Areas
| Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:19 AM
| 
| Been reading the messages about e-mails crashing your systems.  I
| haven't had any problems and I only use Netscape for my e-mail.  Here
| are two links for free downloads...the first one is for Netscape
| Communicator  http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow
| and the second one is for Netscape Gold
| http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow
| 
| Netscape Communicator is the newest and "fanciest" and I don't have much
| experience at it, but I've installed it on my folks computer and they're
| happy with it. I've been using Netscape Gold for the last couple of
| years and like it just fine.
| 
| Just thought I'd help with locating the page for the free downloads!!!
| ----
| For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
| To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 12:38:25 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:37:46 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean  Norenberg" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Welcome Back MiChea'l
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:38:02 -0800
Message-ID: <199801112033.MAA13214@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Welcome back MiChea'l. Look forward to seeing your input in future Bungi
postings.



----------
> From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:49 AM
> 
> To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer
(for
> the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
> For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR
THIS
> GROUP.
> Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at
hand...
> Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
> 
> Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
> Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
> 
> "Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 12:45:09 1998
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
Received: by daver.bungi.com
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	id <m0xrUFP-0000Mya@daver.bungi.com>
	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:44:43 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ee.net!pucky
From: "Sheila" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:51:05 -0500
Message-ID: <199801112047.PAA22304@ee.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Apology is accepted here.  I would like you to accept my apology for the Micheal  MiChea`l mistake.
 I was not in anyway trying to offend anyone is this group.  And as far as my email crashing goes
it usually only takes me about a half hour to fix the problem here.  I was just trying to pass on
info to the group.  Keep on Cutting! 

Apology Accepted Again!
Sheila

----------
| From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
| To: glass@bungi.com
| Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
| Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 2:49 PM
| 
| To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer (for
| the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
| For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR THIS
| GROUP.
| Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at hand...
| Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
| 
| Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
| Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
| 
| "Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
| ----
| For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
| To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:28:20 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:25:48 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: cape.com!sjb
From: "Susan Jordan Bennett" <sjb@cape.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Ugly patina
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:20:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.122025.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Lynn, my black patina looks 100% better when I finish it with plain old
Turtle Car Wax rather then when I use finishing compound.

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: Lyn Butler <lynb@gnt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:23 AM
Subject: Ugly patina


>New kid on the block here-- Got a problem with my patina. After
>carefully fluxing, soldering, cleaning and drying, my black patina looks
>mottled brown or gray. What's wrong? Would appreciate any help.
>
>Was recommended to subscribe to this list and since Friday I've become
>addicted to it. It's really interesting to read about what everyone has
>to say. Have learned several interesting things. This is a veritable
>"gold mine" of information. Will pass this on to my daughter and sister
>who also do glass.
>
>I also use Netscape and have had no problem receiving mail.
>
>Thanks for your help,
>
>Lyn
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:28:21 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "The Banker's House" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:33:59 -0600
Message-ID: <199801112138.PAA01911@ns.ictc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenna, 
	I don't think the intent was to hurt feelings at all, I think the
frustration comes from having a system crash everyday because of 'one'
users messages.  I hope I did not offend anyone with my note, it was not my
intention.  I only want to be able to read my mail. I do not wish anyone to
"un-subscribe" because of this!  I would definitely get a new mail program
if I was the only one affected, but there are MANY people affected. We need
a solution, we do not need to lose members (and those who have crashed are
important to keep too).  Please accept my apologies if I have hurt any
feelings.

Dale

----------
> From: Glenna Rand <gjr@bungi.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 10:11 AM
> 
> [In the message entitled "Re: Crash Cleared Again!" on Jan 11,  7:54,
"Don McDonald" writes:]
> > > MiChae'l McClenden... PLEASE do NOT send any more messages to Bungi
until
> > > you find out why it causes so many of us to crash! This is NOT a fun
way to
> > > spend the afternoon!
> > 
> > There have only been 4 or 5 posts about MiChae'l McClenden's messages 
> > causing a system crash.  Seems the problem lies not with Mr. 
> > McClenden's mail but the readers experiencing the problem.  To date, 
> 
> > translate is not right, especially when that person has attempted to 
> > contribute to the conversations on the list.
> > 
> > MiChae'l, please keep contributing!  We will work out the bugs in 
> > those programs.
> 
> Just to let you all know,...she has unsubscribed and is deeply hurt
> by the attitude of some people on this list.  Please let's try to be
> a bit more considerate.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:28:22 1998
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:27:10 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Receiving mail,Welcome MiChea'l, Great Site,Question for Mike S. Thank you Rand's and Albert
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:26:04 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.6264.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

OK folks here is some more info for you computer literates. I barley
know my way around the keyboard.
I could not get mail through my local server.  I could get on the web
and I could send mail.  I took the hard drive to the server and they
deinstalled and reinstalled and they couldn't get their program to work
either.  My computer came with netscape.  They showed me how to use it.
I have a lot of book marks on my servers program that I can't figure out
how to transport to netscape.  So I use my server to surf the net and
netscape to get my mail.  I log on with my server and then I log onto
netscape.
I have always gotten MiChea'l posts, but I have never been advised there
were attachments with it.  Maybe that is because this system seems to
have so many security programs.
When I was just using the server Mike's post(when was that last summer)
blocked my system and I lost all my mail, cause it had to be deleted at
the servers, and we had to deinstall and reinstall.
Does that help anyone?
I am glad you decided to stay with the group MiChea'l and welcome back. 
This site is more helpful than words  or hugs could ever tell.  I always
tell my children (and anyone else who will listen) that education is the
best thing you can spend your money on, cause it will come back ten fold
over the rest of your life.  And here we are, generously getting it for
free!!!!!!!!!
I did 40 craft shows last year. I shared this site with other glass
vendors and customers alike.  I hope to do 12 this year and I'm debating
about printing out Mikes web page info and leaving it as a free hand
out.  Would that be OK Mike?
I just can't say Thank you enough. The biggest Thank you is to Albert
for telling me about this list and of course the Rand's for operating
it.  I can't imagine how they do the computer part let alone the
babysitting. And they want more.!! Well I am clinking the champagne
glass and here's a toast to you and my hat is off to you too.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:28:22 1998
Return-Path: <owner-glass>
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	for rglass-42; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 14:27:09 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "The Banker's House" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: "Bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Appeal for help.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:19:20 -0600
Message-ID: <199801112123.PAA01816@ns.ictc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Glenna, Dave, and Albert-

	As the "leaders" of the group, and I hope I haven't missed anyone.  Is
there some way to prevent these "Lock-ups, and System crashes" in the
future.  MANY people have had problems.... significantly more than the 4-5
offhandedly referred to.  And expecting these people to download and run
several mail programs, appears to be approaching the issue backwards.  Is
there no way to prevent this before the messages are sent out?  Otherwise,
people should be informed of this before they subscribe, and maybe list
things for them to check, to make sure their messages will not crash the
members of the list.  This would prevent any bad feelings, or wasting hours
of time for some of us with crashed systems.

No rhetoric please, (MSIE vs. Pegasus etc.) just try to help.

Dale


$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
 The Banker's House
 Home of the Buffalo Gang
 "It is better to spend money like there is no tomorrow,
 Than to spend tonight like there is no money!"
 <bankers@ictc.com>
 $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:28:55 1998
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X-Path: ictc.com!bankers
From: "The Banker's House" <bankers@ictc.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:04:58 -0600
Message-ID: <199801112109.PAA01732@ns.ictc.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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MiChea`l,
	Thank you so much for working (very quickly, and very efficiently) to
solve this email problem on behalf of the group.  I appreciate your
unnecessary apology, and I am REALLY glad you did not give up on the list. 
I would never want anyone to be prevented from contributing, including
those who experienced a system crash.  Many of us it seems have MSIE, and
there appears to be a problem, but we also may not have the additional
memory to download all the extra mail programs discussed.  Everything I do,
I do with MSIE and windows, the more I have to add, the more confusing it
gets, and the less space (memory) I have.  Not being a computer whiz, and
not having a lot of extra time, I thank you for fixing this.

For anyone in a similar situation, I recommend getting a web-based email
account like hotmail or yahoo.... when I have a problem with MSIE I can
usually download my messages there.  It takes a little longer, but at least
I never lock-up without some avenues to 'getting back in'.
The addresses for the two web-based mails are:

<http://www.hotmail.com>

<http://mail.yahoo.com>

Remember to set up the POP mail server to "remove messages from server"
otherwise it will only take a copy of the message that locked you up, and
leave the original on your server.  

And best of all.... they require NO memory on your personal computer, and
are FREE.

Dale
----------
> From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 1:49 PM
> 
> To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer
(for
> the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
> For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR
THIS
> GROUP.
> Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at
hand...
> Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
> 
> Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
> Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
> 
> "Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:31:13 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: intrastar.net!ssuter
From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: "glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Unix Pine, Eudora, Pegasus, Netscape Messenger...hell, ANYTHING but MS
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:33:47 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.103347.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.51510.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service  & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

maruca@netaxs.com wrote:

> I get all those
> posts just fine with my Unix C shell account reading with PINE. You can't
> get any cheaper than this text-only system. Right, Shirley? (one of our
> resident ISPs who should be teased into making a statement right about
> now)


.....and my cage door rattles.....
Hey Lady,
You're one smart cookie, Mary!  I've been testing PINE for
over a year and have yet to find a mail program that can
crash it (though it doesn't read HTML code for POOH!)  Been
using XWindows and BitchX (contrary to popular belief, NOT
named after ME!) for a while and find them far superior to
any MS products.  Ain't Unix SWELL?!!!  Even works great on
Vax!

In my experience, I have NEVER seen an e-mail crash be the
fault of the SENDER.  Those who insist on using Internet
Explorer Mail should probably re-think being on large e-mail
lists....your e-mail problems WILL continue as new
subscribers join.  Kindly consider using another e-mail
program.

Contemplating the pros and cons of Public Crucifixion and
how to transform it into a lovely glass panel,
Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 14:50:44 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:51:31 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.115131.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi All-

Here's some info on the Hexacon from
the S.A. Bendheim catalog (which is
only wholesale).  Maybe one of the =

retailers on bungi could acquire them
if they don't stock Hexacon already.
What's available: =


110-W Hatchet Style
110-W Regular iron
(Note that the 110W is available in
two styles) =


150-W Heavy Duty iron =

200-W Heavy Duty iron (2lbs.)
250-W Heavy Duty iron (2.4 lbs.)
300-W Heavy Duty iron (3 lbs.)

I don't know what retail prices would
be but I imagine between $150-300
depending on the size iron.  The hatchet
style mentioned earlier would be over
$200.  Hope this helps a little!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 15:01:52 1998
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X-Path: lasercom.net!jean
From: "Jean  Norenberg" <jean@lasercom.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Welcome Back MiChea'l
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:38:02 -0800
Message-ID: <199801112033.MAA13214@intergate.lasercom.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Welcome back MiChea'l. Look forward to seeing your input in future Bungi
postings.



----------
> From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
> Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:49 AM
> 
> To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer
(for
> the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
> For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR
THIS
> GROUP.
> Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at
hand...
> Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
> 
> Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
> Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
> 
> "Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 15:02:51 1998
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Apologies and counter apologies
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:04:13 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.5413.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


>>>Interesting, I use MS internet explorer, and was watching everyone talk 
about crashing, and I am unscathed by the mail in question. Could it be 
that I am doing the E mail with MS Office 97? Interesting to see all the 
solutions that people came up with though! As for the culprit, I can 
sympathize, for a while and I hope not anymore each message I sent had a 
page or so of type "noise" after it. This is all relatively new to all of 
us as I think it was Albert was saying. Apologies were give, lets accept 
that and move on, who knows who might cause the next "error" maybe one of 
us.<<<

I tried sending the above earlier but it didn't go out properly

Which is what we are all TRYING to do, "contribute to the list".  It
 is unfortunate that we are being prevented from doing this by ONE
 persons mail program. Is it really fair to ask a dozen people to
 change mail programs when only ONE persons messages are causing this
 trouble?

 I find it offensive that a couple of you  (who take this crashing so 
nonchalant)  are  critical of those of us who have had to spend
 hours (in some cases entire days!) with a crashed system!

 We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG 
problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system down 
for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on resolving 
the problem.

I have now set up a mail account with Yahoo Mail (FREE) just for my Bungi 
mail. I do not choose to change my mail program because of one person (I 
like what I have!), I want to continue the Bungi relationship, and I do NOT 
want to spend another day untangling these problems. If anyone out there 
has a better solution, please share it with the group.  We appear to need 
help!
Bonnie
_________________________________________________________


These people have apologized twice (at least now), and I feel badly that 
some have been a little rude to them with respect to what happened. People 
who feel vulnerable to crashes an other such calamities and say that it 
caused hardship, well that's life on the net. It was not done as an act of 
sabotage and it is how we react to things such as this that determines who 
we are as people. I understand the frustration of having a crash, but it 
was an unknown system incompatibility not individual intent that caused the 
crashes. Blame the system and not these people who have tried hard to 
correct the problem as soon as they were made aware of it. I think it is we 
who owe these people an apology for not being fair. This whole E-mail thing 
is in it's infancy. We have all learned from this experience, just as those 
in the East are learning from the storm they are having and I hope they are 
not blaming each other for the catastrophe. I certainly don't blame people 
like Bonnie for being upset, but the blame should not be directed at these 
people, but at our own lack of understanding the system, as you say Bonnie 
"  We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG 
problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system down 
for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on resolving 
the problem.  "So it was for these people. They were upset that this whole 
affair happened. let's be a little slower to direct our anger at others and 
be more empathetic. I have my fair share of crashes and down time, and I 
don't like it either, but don't shoot the messenger.
Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	MMcclen740 [SMTP:MMcclen740@aol.com]
Sent:	Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:50 AM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!

To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer (for
the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR 
THIS
GROUP.
Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at 
hand...
Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?

Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.

"Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday

----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 15:14:35 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: ee.net!pucky
From: "Sheila" <pucky@ee.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:51:05 -0500
Message-ID: <199801112047.PAA22304@ee.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Apology is accepted here.  I would like you to accept my apology for the Micheal  MiChea`l mistake.
 I was not in anyway trying to offend anyone is this group.  And as far as my email crashing goes
it usually only takes me about a half hour to fix the problem here.  I was just trying to pass on
info to the group.  Keep on Cutting! 

Apology Accepted Again!
Sheila

----------
| From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
| To: glass@bungi.com
| Subject: GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
| Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 2:49 PM
| 
| To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer (for
| the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
| For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR THIS
| GROUP.
| Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at hand...
| Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
| 
| Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
| Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
| 
| "Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
| ----
| For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
| To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 16:08:12 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: mars.ark.com!wmunro
From: wmunro@mars.ark.com (Wayne Munro)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Apologies and counter apologies
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:06:39 -0800
Message-ID: <199801120006.QAA28333@ark.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I usually just sit back and let happen whats going to happen. However, I
think it is time to also put my 2 cents worth in....I have forwarded this
persons messages to myself through 'Eudora' (The cheap version), Netscape
communicator, Netscape Gold and IE, and have had no problem at all. That
leads me to believe that the problem may be closer to home than you think. I
echo what others have said, they are not 'doing it deliberatly' so mellow
out. Life goes on...Check your own settings and quit blasting the rest of us
for what is obviously a 'home-grown' issue.

>
>>>>Interesting, I use MS internet explorer, and was watching everyone talk 
>about crashing, and I am unscathed by the mail in question. Could it be 
>that I am doing the E mail with MS Office 97? Interesting to see all the 
>solutions that people came up with though! As for the culprit, I can 
>sympathize, for a while and I hope not anymore each message I sent had a 
>page or so of type "noise" after it. This is all relatively new to all of 
>us as I think it was Albert was saying. Apologies were give, lets accept 
>that and move on, who knows who might cause the next "error" maybe one of 
>us.<<<
>
>I tried sending the above earlier but it didn't go out properly
>
>Which is what we are all TRYING to do, "contribute to the list".  It
> is unfortunate that we are being prevented from doing this by ONE
> persons mail program. Is it really fair to ask a dozen people to
> change mail programs when only ONE persons messages are causing this
> trouble?
>
> I find it offensive that a couple of you  (who take this crashing so 
>nonchalant)  are  critical of those of us who have had to spend
> hours (in some cases entire days!) with a crashed system!
>
> We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG 
>problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system down 
>for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on resolving 
>the problem.
>
>I have now set up a mail account with Yahoo Mail (FREE) just for my Bungi 
>mail. I do not choose to change my mail program because of one person (I 
>like what I have!), I want to continue the Bungi relationship, and I do NOT 
>want to spend another day untangling these problems. If anyone out there 
>has a better solution, please share it with the group.  We appear to need 
>help!
>Bonnie
>_________________________________________________________
>
>
>These people have apologized twice (at least now), and I feel badly that 
>some have been a little rude to them with respect to what happened. People 
>who feel vulnerable to crashes an other such calamities and say that it 
>caused hardship, well that's life on the net. It was not done as an act of 
>sabotage and it is how we react to things such as this that determines who 
>we are as people. I understand the frustration of having a crash, but it 
>was an unknown system incompatibility not individual intent that caused the 
>crashes. Blame the system and not these people who have tried hard to 
>correct the problem as soon as they were made aware of it. I think it is we 
>who owe these people an apology for not being fair. This whole E-mail thing 
>is in it's infancy. We have all learned from this experience, just as those 
>in the East are learning from the storm they are having and I hope they are 
>not blaming each other for the catastrophe. I certainly don't blame people 
>like Bonnie for being upset, but the blame should not be directed at these 
>people, but at our own lack of understanding the system, as you say Bonnie 
>"  We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG 
>problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system down 
>for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on resolving 
>the problem.  "So it was for these people. They were upset that this whole 
>affair happened. let's be a little slower to direct our anger at others and 
>be more empathetic. I have my fair share of crashes and down time, and I 
>don't like it either, but don't shoot the messenger.
>Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	MMcclen740 [SMTP:MMcclen740@aol.com]
>Sent:	Sunday, January 11, 1998 11:50 AM
>To:	glass@bungi.com
>Subject:	GLASS: the Biz at Hand !!!
>
>To ALL of YOU, who's systems were affected by my email... I will offer (for
>the LAST time, My Sincere Apologies.
>For thoes of you, that think we're "Cheap", we've accuired AOL, JUST FOR 
>THIS
>GROUP.
>Now...can WE ALL forget about Crashes, and get back to the business at 
>hand...
>Dealing with Stained Glass Workings?
>
>Sincerely, Mr. (Forrest) & Mrs. (MiChea`l ) NOT  MICHAEL  McClendon.
>Live4GAMES like WarCraft II and SimCity2000.
>
>"Do something Good for yourself, Be KIND to Others"...Terry Holiday
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>


Wayne Munro 'Snail mail' address
2960 Suffield Road,
Courtenay, B.C. Canada   V9N-3V5

Phone and Fax-- (250) 338-5507  
 "Call before sending a fax so setup is complete"

----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 16:08:52 1998
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X-Path: water.waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: American Bevels
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:08:33 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801120008.TAA22635@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Just thought I would pass this one on......

Beware that American Bevels has changed their bevel patterns
to suit those done for the computer and their computer program.
If you are in possession of their old catalog and bevel patterns
do not try to design anything with them before you find out
if the cluster you are working with is an old cluster or one of the
new ones which is labeled design with computer.
Nice that they want to sell their computer program but come on guys!

Wonder when they were going to tell anyone about this change?
Wonder if they have a new catalog to go along with the new clusters
for those of us who design for clients before we purchase the bevels?
Wonder if anyone else has been put in this position?

We have designed and almost fully executed a commission
using four of American Bevel clusters.  Two that were for the right
side two for the left. Now you would think that they would all be the same?
Wrong!!!
Not only were they not.  We had to redesign the commission because
we had drawn it to full scale with patterns from bevels we had used
before. So after redesining it to fit the new cluster
we get to the fouth and that happens to be an old cluster. 

Not only are the new clusters different in design they are also
very very very thin at the edge.  And if you are working with lead
you will know that a thin edge is nothing but a pain.

So here it is Sunday nite.....we have an installation date due of Tuesday.
And here hoping that our supplier (and he's at fault here too) will be
able to overnite us this cluster.....if they have any in stock.

my best,
pj (who knows that Mr. Ashoff ears should have been burning today.)

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 16:36:56 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Apologies and counter apologies
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:35:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.14355.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Well-spoken, Glenn-

My old dinosaur hasn't ever had
any problems with bungi mail
(except for some "noise") although
it protests a little when the posts
are too long.  I understand the
frustration though, of having a =

system freeze up.  Happened to me
a while back when I e-mailed the
editor of the local daily newspaper
to complain about not getting =

delivery.  The next thing I know, a
well-meaning assistant tried to
down-load that day's edition and
my poor "puter was catatonic for a
few days after!  It was pretty frustrating
not being able to get bungi mail (I =

think it was right in the heat of the =

Tiffany discussions!)  This too shall
pass!

Best regards,

Dani Greer ( who just finished soldering
the last World Arena panel... and is now off to
the mud room!  What a way to spend Sunday!)
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 16:43:22 1998
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X-Path: sympatico.ca!arthurs.and.willis
From: Sandra Willis <arthurs.and.willis@sympatico.ca>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:43:16 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.144316.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.25110.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

> If the iron is not hot enough it can cause the flux to boil instead of being
> burnt off. What you may be seeing are craters formed by the flux vapor
> trying to escape.
> 
> Tom
> 

Okay,

So, if my iron is not hot enough, how do I tell?  I bought one of the
"hotter" tips for the Weller, but I still have problems with it.  Could
it be that my iron is dying?  This could be why I've started to hate
soldering when it used to be my favourite part.  I can't get a decent
bead for the life of me.

I don't think it's too much flux, the pitting happens as the solder is
setting rather than as the solder is melting.  It is a really, really,
fine texture and very even all across the bead.  Polishing with
ultrafine steel wool takes some of it, but it still looks like the
surface has been brushed.

I admit that I haven't taken it in yet to my local glass store, that is
my next step.  Just wondering if there was an easy way to tell if my
iron is OK.

Bought the book the Magic of Snowflakes by Deverie Wood.  I was able to
do one of their snowflakes in about five hours which was nice.  Really
impressed with the different patterns and even though I probably could
dream up my own given the time and the inclination it is nice to have
someone else do the thinking for me.  I have a feeling this will be my
new hostess gift for a couple of friends.  The store gave me a great tip
on foiling the nuggets by putting them in a jam jar once foiled and
swirling them around so that they become self crimping.  Wonderful!



Sorry so long a letter, thanks for your help.

Sandy
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 17:46:46 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Weller 100 
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:41:00, -0500
Message-ID: <199801120141.UAA12822@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Sandi writes:
Okay,

So, if my iron is not hot enough, how do I tell?  I bought one of 
the
"hotter" tips for the Weller, but I still have problems with it.  
Could
it be that my iron is dying?  This could be why I've started to hate
soldering when it used to be my favourite part.  I can't get a 
decent
bead for the life of me.

I don't think it's too much flux, the pitting happens as the solder 
is
setting rather than as the solder is melting.  It is a really, really,

fine texture and very even all across the bead.  Polishing with
ultrafine steel wool takes some of it, but it still looks like the
surface has been brushed.

I admit that I haven't taken it in yet to my local glass store, that 
is
my next step.  Just wondering if there was an easy way to tell if my
iron is OK.

Bought the book the Magic of Snowflakes by Deverie Wood.  I was able 
to
do one of their snowflakes in about five hours which was nice.  
Really
impressed with the different patterns and even though I probably 
could
dream up my own given the time and the inclination it is nice to 
have
someone else do the thinking for me.  I have a feeling this will be 
my
new hostess gift for a couple of friends.  The store gave me a great 
tip
on foiling the nuggets by putting them in a jam jar once foiled and
swirling them around so that they become self crimping.  Wonderful!

Sorry so long a letter, thanks for your help.

Sandy

Bob writes,

Sandy, I bet your Weller 100 is not hot enough. Try plugging it into 
the wall without an extension cord. If your solder is still grainy (a 
sign of low heat) then take the iron back to where you purchased it 
and ask for a refund or send it to Weller for repair.

Weller 100 irons are good when they work. I got tired of trashing $60.
00 every six months or so because the control element in the tip went 
and I had to break the iron to get it out. Now use a cheap $15.00, 
lightweight, 100 watt iron plugged into a control made for stained 
glass work. After six months I still throw the iron away but I feel 
much better about it. Also I have real control of the power available 
to my iron and can turn it down to where I can hang a ball of solder 
if I want to. There are several SG controls on the market for about 
$25.00. I like the Glasstar which (you guessed it) costs more. In 
summary, I am saying that a control and a cheap 100 watt iron is 
better than the more expensive and heavier iron. Go figure.

The tip you give about putting foiled nuggets in a jam jar to crimp 
then is perhaps the most important thing I have heard this year. If 
there was a prize for the best suggestion of the week, you would get 
my vote.

BTW, have had no problems with my Prodigy mail. Sometimes forget to 
reset my priority command and so go to the top of Alberts list. Sorry 
about that- not fair. Bob (In sunny SOCAL with ex in Agusta, Me.)

____
Bob Duchesneau (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
get what you don't pay for.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 
Mountain Meadow Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:14:58 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Ugly patina
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:08:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.16856.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.102140.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Lyn Butler wrote:
> 
> New kid on the block here-- Got a problem with my patina. After
> carefully fluxing, soldering, cleaning and drying, my black patina looks
> mottled brown or gray. What's wrong? Would appreciate any help.
> 
> Was recommended to subscribe to this list and since Friday I've become
> addicted to it. It's really interesting to read about what everyone has
> to say. Have learned several interesting things. This is a veritable
> "gold mine" of information. Will pass this on to my daughter and sister
> who also do glass.
> 
> I also use Netscape and have had no problem receiving mail.
> 
> Thanks for your help,
> 
> Lyn
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


try washing the piece in baking soda and joy. then polish the patina
with semichrome. 

when you put the patina on, make sure you put a little in the cap, and
don't pour it back in. otherwise you may contaminate the rest of the
bottle.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:20:07 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:26:33 +0000
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> Glenna, Dave, and Albert-
> 
> 	As the "leaders" of the group>

Dale, it's Dave & Glenna who're the leaders. I'm just one of the 
group (which isn't necessarily a "follower," either). <s>

> there some way to prevent these "Lock-ups, and System crashes"

If you're using a computer of any make, brand, model or vintage, you 
have to also expect crashes and lockups from time to time. Glenna 
said last week or the week before that the group now comprises what? 
300? 500? members. It has certainly been a very small percentage who 
have reported problems with the attachments "crashing" their 
computers. ("Choking" would probably be closer to the right phrase, 
but I realize that whether the box is choking or crashing it makes no 
difference ... you're still frustrated as heck.)

Personally, I experience lockups and crashes ... well, at least 
"mini-crashes" ... every day in my work. If I have 9-10 programs open and 
running simultaneously, then go online and hit a Java page, I have to 
wince and groan, then start closing stuff down and sometimes must 
also reboot. Now I'm fairly computer literate and can tweak and 
fiddle with some of the best of 'em, but it's just part of internet 
life that you'll have to weed the garden from time to time and 
sometimes more often than you like.

It's kinda like life as we know it. Not smooth. Not like the movies. 
But definitely interesting.

Albert

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:24:36 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Receiving mail,Welcome MiChea'l, Great Site,Question for Mike S. Thank you Rand's and Albert
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:18:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.161838.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.6264.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> OK folks here is some more info for you computer literates. I barley
> know my way around the keyboard.
> I could not get mail through my local server.  I could get on the web
> and I could send mail.  I took the hard drive to the server and they
> deinstalled and reinstalled and they couldn't get their program to work
> either.  My computer came with netscape.  They showed me how to use it.
> I have a lot of book marks on my servers program that I can't figure out
> how to transport to netscape.  So I use my server to surf the net and
> netscape to get my mail.  I log on with my server and then I log onto
> netscape.
> I have always gotten MiChea'l posts, but I have never been advised there
> were attachments with it.  Maybe that is because this system seems to
> have so many security programs.
> When I was just using the server Mike's post(when was that last summer)
> blocked my system and I lost all my mail, cause it had to be deleted at
> the servers, and we had to deinstall and reinstall.
> Does that help anyone?
> I am glad you decided to stay with the group MiChea'l and welcome back.
> This site is more helpful than words  or hugs could ever tell.  I always
> tell my children (and anyone else who will listen) that education is the
> best thing you can spend your money on, cause it will come back ten fold
> over the rest of your life.  And here we are, generously getting it for
> free!!!!!!!!!
> I did 40 craft shows last year. I shared this site with other glass
> vendors and customers alike.  I hope to do 12 this year and I'm debating
> about printing out Mikes web page info and leaving it as a free hand
> out.  Would that be OK Mike?
> I just can't say Thank you enough. The biggest Thank you is to Albert
> for telling me about this list and of course the Rand's for operating
> it.  I can't imagine how they do the computer part let alone the
> babysitting. And they want more.!! Well I am clinking the champagne
> glass and here's a toast to you and my hat is off to you too.
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i guess that's ok, (providing you were talking about me... :) ). there's
alot of pages to print though. maybe if you can keep an address location
on it, that would be nice... would it be in color?

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:32:55 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:26:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.162647.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.144316.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Sandra Willis wrote:
> 
> > If the iron is not hot enough it can cause the flux to boil instead of being
> > burnt off. What you may be seeing are craters formed by the flux vapor
> > trying to escape.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> 
> Okay,
> 
> So, if my iron is not hot enough, how do I tell?  I bought one of the
> "hotter" tips for the Weller, but I still have problems with it.  Could
> it be that my iron is dying?  This could be why I've started to hate
> soldering when it used to be my favourite part.  I can't get a decent
> bead for the life of me.
> 
> I don't think it's too much flux, the pitting happens as the solder is
> setting rather than as the solder is melting.  It is a really, really,
> fine texture and very even all across the bead.  Polishing with
> ultrafine steel wool takes some of it, but it still looks like the
> surface has been brushed.
> 
> I admit that I haven't taken it in yet to my local glass store, that is
> my next step.  Just wondering if there was an easy way to tell if my
> iron is OK.
> 
> Bought the book the Magic of Snowflakes by Deverie Wood.  I was able to
> do one of their snowflakes in about five hours which was nice.  Really
> impressed with the different patterns and even though I probably could
> dream up my own given the time and the inclination it is nice to have
> someone else do the thinking for me.  I have a feeling this will be my
> new hostess gift for a couple of friends.  The store gave me a great tip
> on foiling the nuggets by putting them in a jam jar once foiled and
> swirling them around so that they become self crimping.  Wonderful!
> 
> Sorry so long a letter, thanks for your help.
> 
> Sandy
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


you can generally tell, when the solder get's "pasty", and does'nt flow
like water. the iron could be bad, but it could also be used for good.
it can now be you decorative soldering iron. i could bring it into the
store, and try someone elses iron for a comparison.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:49:30 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Foiling Nuggets
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 98 21:49:54 -0500
Message-ID: <199801120248.VAA13059@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Bob Wrote:
>The tip you give about putting foiled nuggets in a jam jar to crimp 
>then is perhaps the most important thing I have heard this year. If 
>there was a prize for the best suggestion of the week, you would get 
>my vote.

Suzanne adds:

It is a wonderful tip, and works like magic! I have been taught, however, 
that the jar should be made of plastic so as not to chip the nuggets. 

I use an old "Tums" bottle and it's great.

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 18:55:51 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: American Bevels
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:54:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.165433.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

What a drag, pj!  And shame on
American Bevel ... and,
you're right, pj, the supplier, too.
They, of all people should be up
on their products.  Well, 400 bungi
members around the world now
know about this snafu - Not good
publicity.  Maybe some of our
retailers could pass this on to
American Bevel.  And, I think some
recompense is probably due from
your supplier!

Best regards,

Dani (don't feel alone, we're
still at work, too.)
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 19:11:02 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!WhispyBlu
From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:06:56 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.3656.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Albert:  About half of your posts have a straight line going through the
middle of your text as if you took a ruler and drew a line through it.  Over
time I realized that this was valuable information and not just a way to
"delete" information.  This has been going on for a long time and now know to
read the text, but do you have any idea why this happens?  This is NOT a
problem because I can still read it but I was curious as to what causes it or
why it happens.  Lu Ann (Whispy Blu@aol.com)
----
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 19:53:07 1998
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X-Path: gjr
From: gjr@bungi.com (Glenna Rand)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:52:19 PST
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

[In the message entitled "Appeal for help." on Jan 11, 15:19, "The Banker's House" writes:]

> 
> 	As the "leaders" of the group, and I hope I haven't missed anyone.  Is
> there some way to prevent these "Lock-ups, and System crashes" in the
> future.  MANY people have had problems.... significantly more than the 4-5

No,..there is nothing we can do about it.  It's up to people to
use mail readers that don't crash.  I myself use UNIX and have no
problems at all.


-- 
Glenna Rand
gjr@bungi.com
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 20:00:14 1998
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To: "bungi" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: let the computer sort
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:59:31 -0800
Message-ID: <199801120359.TAA28408@smtp3.teleport.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have very little to no computer skills, but figured out and let Internet
mail (micro-soft)sort into pre-set mail boxes.
Set the from or an address to go into a specific box and then DELETE the
whole run. (note: this can be used with specific persons as well.

I, too got MANY posts from stmp (or whatever), it caused no freezing but
just a waste of time to handle.
It also seems we are beating this one into submission as well, perhaps we
need to get back to coathangers to  break the monotony.

As always..................H
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 20:46:25 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: American Bevels
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 23:40:10, -0500
Message-ID: <199801120440.XAB08232@mime4.prodigy.com>
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PJ wrote:
Beware that American Bevels has changed their bevel patterns
to suit those done for the computer and their computer program.

Bob writes,

Yes, American Bevel clusters have been redrawn for the Designer 
program.
It is necessary to use the slightly revised patterns and to insure 
that ONLY redrawn bevel clusters are obtained and used. The two 
existing pattern books do not require revision as the changes are 
slight. Old patterns are useless. For hand drawing old and new 
patterns are fine.

I know this to be a fact, because I read the caution in the welcoming 
letter that came with designer and still used an old pattern to 
design to. Even though I had been warned I sent an E-mail to AB 
letting them know I thought they could have placed a prominant 
warning in the basic instructional text.

I have not found any (small sample) *new* clusters to be thin at the 
edge. As a beveler I suspect that someplace in China someone probably 
set their router up wrong when making X number of clusters. Probably 
set for 3/16" glass rather than the 1/4" AB specifies. IMO AB 
clusters have high marks when it comes to quality control. If I come 
across any thin edges AB will get them back. They are good at making 
the customer happy and DO take pride in the quality of their product.


There is a revision to Designer due out in a few weeks. Understand 
the new libraries are extensive.

Bob



____
Bob Duchesneau (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
get what you don't pay for.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 
Mountain Meadow Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 21:50:06 1998
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Mike's page
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 21:48:47 -0800
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References: <<1998Jan11.161838.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
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> alot of pages to print though. maybe if you can keep an address location
> on it, that would be nice... would it be in color?
> 
No just text and sites that felow crafters would appreciate.
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From owner-glass Sun Jan 11 23:28:17 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Weller 100 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:14:24 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan11.211424.0>
References: <<199801120141.UAA12822@mime4.prodigy.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

As for the pitting that occurs during cooling of solder.  

I have seen the phenomenon from time to time and have figured out  the
following about it.
What is actually happening here is that the outer skin of the solder is
freezing well in advance of the solder in the core of your line.  Once
the skin freezes it can no longer shrink to fit the metal in the core of
the line as it cools and contracts.  

Factors that can make matters worse are:
1)  Working in a cold room. If the room is cold the surface will shed
heat too quickly for the core to cool along with it.

2)  This problem happens more often when soldering to fill in wide gaps
where there is so much metal present that expansion is more significant a
factor and the temperature in the middle can vary greatly from the
outside.  In a way it is like annealing glass! 

3) Overheating the entire workpiece.  If the glass itself gets soaked in
heat, it in effect becomes part of the solder core.  It (the glass) will
continue to heat the inside of the solder line not allowing it to cool as
quickly as the surface of your bead.  This sometimes occurs when working
with too cool an iron.  If the iron is too cool you must linger too long
waiting for the solder to melt, all the while pumping extra heat into the
glass which later affects the way things cool.  Likewise, reworking the
same portion of your line repeatedly without letting it cool in between
attempts will saturate the glass with heat.

Gary Dodge                     Dodge Studio Designs



On Sun, 11 Jan 1998 20:41:00, -0500 YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB  
DUCHESNEAU) writes:
>Sandi writes:
>Okay,
>
>So, if my iron is not hot enough, how do I tell?  I bought one of 
>the
>"hotter" tips for the Weller, but I still have problems with it.  
>Could
>it be that my iron is dying?  This could be why I've started to hate
>soldering when it used to be my favourite part.  I can't get a 
>decent
>bead for the life of me.
>
>I don't think it's too much flux, the pitting happens as the solder 
>is
>setting rather than as the solder is melting.  It is a really, really,
>
>fine texture and very even all across the bead.  Polishing with
>ultrafine steel wool takes some of it, but it still looks like the
>surface has been brushed.
>
>I admit that I haven't taken it in yet to my local glass store, that 
>is
>my next step.  Just wondering if there was an easy way to tell if my
>iron is OK.
>
>Bought the book the Magic of Snowflakes by Deverie Wood.  I was able 
>to
>do one of their snowflakes in about five hours which was nice.  
>Really
>impressed with the different patterns and even though I probably 
>could
>dream up my own given the time and the inclination it is nice to 
>have
>someone else do the thinking for me.  I have a feeling this will be 
>my
>new hostess gift for a couple of friends.  The store gave me a great 
>tip
>on foiling the nuggets by putting them in a jam jar once foiled and
>swirling them around so that they become self crimping.  Wonderful!
>
>Sorry so long a letter, thanks for your help.
>
>Sandy
>
>Bob writes,
>
>Sandy, I bet your Weller 100 is not hot enough. Try plugging it into 
>the wall without an extension cord. If your solder is still grainy (a 
>sign of low heat) then take the iron back to where you purchased it 
>and ask for a refund or send it to Weller for repair.
>
>Weller 100 irons are good when they work. I got tired of trashing $60.
>00 every six months or so because the control element in the tip went 
>and I had to break the iron to get it out. Now use a cheap $15.00, 
>lightweight, 100 watt iron plugged into a control made for stained 
>glass work. After six months I still throw the iron away but I feel 
>much better about it. Also I have real control of the power available 
>to my iron and can turn it down to where I can hang a ball of solder 
>if I want to. There are several SG controls on the market for about 
>$25.00. I like the Glasstar which (you guessed it) costs more. In 
>summary, I am saying that a control and a cheap 100 watt iron is 
>better than the more expensive and heavier iron. Go figure.
>
>The tip you give about putting foiled nuggets in a jam jar to crimp 
>then is perhaps the most important thing I have heard this year. If 
>there was a prize for the best suggestion of the week, you would get 
>my vote.
>
>BTW, have had no problems with my Prodigy mail. Sometimes forget to 
>reset my priority command and so go to the top of Alberts list. Sorry 
>about that- not fair. Bob (In sunny SOCAL with ex in Agusta, Me.)
>
>____
>Bob Duchesneau (You don't always get what you pay for but you seldom 
>get what you don't pay for.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 
>Mountain Meadow Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
>Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 02:18:15 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 05:25:22 +0000
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> Albert:  About half of your posts have a straight line going through the
> middle of your text as if you took a ruler and drew a line through 
it

That's a new one, LuAnn. Haven't heard that before, but it sounds 
like a function of your reader. What are you using as a mail reader? 
I'd ask your ISP; my first thought is that the messages are being 
marked for deletion on the ISP's server and you're getting the marked 
version, but that's just a guess.

Albert
  

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 04:01:22 1998
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Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 06:59:49 EST
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Albert - I'm using AOL for my mail and yours is the only one that's doing
this.  Like I said it's not a problem because I can read the text, but thanks
for helping.
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 04:30:44 1998
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Dodge Studio Was:RE: Weller 100 
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:32:35 -0500
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Gary,=20

Glad to see you on the list. I have visited your web site and love your =
patterns. I have several on them. I'm glad to see them carried at my =
local dealer now.=20

Linda Campbell
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 04:37:38 1998
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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        HI!
MiChea`l   

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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 04:46:13 -0800
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          Do You find Glazing better with.. The GRAY stuff in the can?...or
mixing Plaster of Paris & Linseed Oil ????
Please give your input, before Wednesday.
MiChea`l

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 06:25:08 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
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Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:31:27 +0000
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> Albert - I'm using AOL for my mail and yours is the only one that's doing
> this.  Like I said it's not a problem because I can read the text, but thanks
> for helping.

Sure, LuAnn. Is anyone else getting my messages with lines drawn 
through the text? Does anyone have any idea why that would happen?

Albert

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 07:12:09 1998
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Subject: Re: bevel overlay
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Gloria...
You will need to use either the 1/2" or the 3/8" foil. I have used the
copper back foil. It shouldn't really make a difference since you are going
to plate the bevel with some colored glass it will hide the copper foil. I
personally have not seen 3/8" or 1/2" silver or black back foils.
Michael


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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 07:12:48 1998
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Subject: Re: Mike's page
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:05:49 -0500
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Shirley Balloch wrote:
> 
> > alot of pages to print though. maybe if you can keep an address location
> > on it, that would be nice... would it be in color?
> >
> No just text and sites that felow crafters would appreciate.
> ----
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alrighty, i guess so... i know some guy from germany put my page on one
of his cd's... kinda neat...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 07:14:51 1998
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X-Path: glasstreasures.com!sgt
From: Stephanie Hansen <sgt@glasstreasures.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 09:13:26 -0600
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980112091326.007ca290@glasstreasures.com>
References: <<m0xrkm8-0000djC@daver.bungi.com>>
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At 09:31 AM 1/12/98 +0000, you wrote:

>Sure, LuAnn. Is anyone else getting my messages with lines drawn 
>through the text? Does anyone have any idea why that would happen?
>
>Albert

FYI, I don't have the problem now, but I remember having that problem
before with some of your messages, and I remember others having it, too,
and somebody said something, and you didn't know then, either, what was
wrong.  I might have been using my AOL e-mail when I was having that
problem, now that I think about it.  It didn't happen on *every* message of
yours, Albert, but yours was the only one it happened on.  About 7 or 8
lines into the message, all of a sudden everything would have a line
running through it, like a "strikethrough".  Very strange.

Steph ~

-----------------------------------
Stephanie Hansen
Stained Glass Treasures/Dallas, TX
mailto:sgt@glasstreasures.com
NEW pictures in the Gallery!
http://glasstreasures.com/
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 07:17:41 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:10:36 -0500
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Albert Lewis wrote:
> 
> > Albert - I'm using AOL for my mail and yours is the only one that's doing
> > this.  Like I said it's not a problem because I can read the text, but thanks
> > for helping.
> 
> Sure, LuAnn. Is anyone else getting my messages with lines drawn
> through the text? Does anyone have any idea why that would happen?
> 
> Albert
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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nope, first time i heard of it, i'm using netscape 3.0.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 08:46:45 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Windows of North America
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 09:42:34 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.174234.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Coincidental, but, when I was out this weekend I happened across this
 book in Springfield, MO at Merry Go Round, and also saw the chief on 
the cover, so purchased it.   Now, had I read your message first and 
went looking for the book, probably wouldn't have come across it! <g>   

The pictures of the work by Powers Illustrated Stained Glass Studio are 
really phenomenal.  They utilize larger expanses of solder and slivers of 
glass to create some very realistic pieces of art. I hope to have some 
time later today to go in and look at their work on their web site.  They 
used some very interesting colors of glass for the chief's face that I 
wanted to ask about.

Dawn

 
> Just got my Winter 97/98 Glass Pattern Quarterly and on page 22 Wardell
> Publication isadvertising Windows of North America.  There is a great
> Indian Chief on the cover.
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 08:50:07 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT"
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 98 10:48:51 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.184851.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.2416.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I believe I'll take Mike Peck's advice and give my Weller 100 another
shot before buying a different iron.  (Have spent too much on glass
lately!)  I'll take it off the extension cord and have another outlet put=
 in, and use it on a dedicated circuit.  You would think that would be =
a 
simple task to get done, considering I live with an electrician/plumber. =
 But, I have been asking for that for quite some time now, as well as a =

new light fixture put in over my workbench.  And yes, my sink does 
leak...  ;-) <g>

I'm also going to switch to a wider tip as suggested to help retain the =

heat.  As someone pointed out, I must be pulling the bead too quickly. =

 Although, I did not realize this was possible and thought that running =

the bead quickly was the objective.  I try to go quickly so I don't get =

too much solder on the bead and end up with big, ugly solder lines.  I =

was trying to get small, smooth inconspicuous lines, so I was moving 
as quickly as possible.

Zane mentioned the Hexacon iron puts a bead on the piece as you 
are doing preliminary soldering, and therefore, "the first swipe is the =

last swipe".  Why is this?  What is there about the Hexacon that 
would make this difference?  I thought you only had to do a tack 
soldering to joints and then run your bead.  Do you need to solder the =

entire project and then go back to run your bead normally?

My conclusion is that I really know very little about soldering and 
probably need to take a hands-on course to be shown how to do it 
correctly. My instructor at the craft shop taught us to go along the 
seam and drop balls of solder along it, and then run the iron from ball =

to ball to melt them into a bead.  It didn't take me long to discover I =

didn't like this approach at all because of the uneven bead I was 
getting.  So I read a book & tried teaching myself another way.  Bungi =

is a great teaching tool, and sometimes, what I learn is that I have an =

awful lot more to learn!

Thanks for the help and suggestions.
Dawn

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 12:46:45 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:51:36 +0000
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> problem, now that I think about it.  It didn't happen on *every* message of
> yours, Albert, but yours was the only one it happened on. 

Guess I'm just special. <s>

Albert

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 13:14:23 1998
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From: LByrne21 <LByrne21@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:10:36 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.211036.0>
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Albert:  I have the same thing, as LueAnn does. Some of your e-mail has a line
thru some of your message.  It can be read.....it's just "interesting" as to
why this happens.    Lavergne
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 14:20:04 1998
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X-Path: ccti.net!don
From: "Don McDonald" <don@ccti.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:23:06 +0000
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>  Don, go back and check your mail again. There have been far more than
>  ". . . 4  or  5 posts......."!  And,  I suspect that if everyone who
>  has had the  problem were to write in we would find more than we could
>  imagine!

I did a search on all messages in my bungi folder with the words 
"crash" in them and found four addresses

>  
>  We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG
>  problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system
>  down for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on
>  resolving the problem. 

If my computer system is down, I cannot work.  My job depends on my 
computer.  Crashing is no trivial matter for me, either.  This is why 
I have installed safeguards.



 
> I have now set up a mail account with YahooMail (FREE) just for my
> Bungi mail. I do not choose to change my mail program because of one
> person (I like what I have!), I want to continue the Bungi
> relationship, and I do NOT want to spend another day untangling these
> problems. If anyone out there has a better solution, please share it
> with the group.  We appear to need help!
> Bonnie


My solution has been offered.  Give up your Web Browser with an 
accessory mail reader for a Mail Reading program like Pegasus...It's 
free and you can be assured that your system will not crash due to an 
encrypted, mimed, attached or hypertexted mail message.

If you wouldn't cut lead came with tin snips, why read e-mail with a 
Web Browser? 

Don M. McDonald
Web Design
Corporate Communications Technology
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 14:20:27 1998
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X-Path: stainedglass.co.uk!studio
From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: New UK stained glass chat forum
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:21:07 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.22217.0>
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Precedence: bulk

For any bunginian who enjoys chat forums, have a look at Hetleys newly set
up one.
At the moment their site is a bit overframed for my liking, so I have
bookmarked just the chat forum page at http://www.hetleys.co.uk/disc1_frm.htm. 
Not many people have discovered it yet, but Hetleys are keen to help answer
any questions posed, and so far have posted replies quickly if they have an
answer at their fingertips.
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 14:22:38 1998
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Windows of North America
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:23:11 +0000
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Dawn - did you make a note of Powers Illustrated Stained Glass Studio web
site address?
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 14:56:00 1998
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X-Path: crl.com!slally
From: Sean Lally <slally@crl.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:41:14 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980112144036.21664A-100000@crl.crl.com>
References: <<1998Jan12.211036.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

The pattern I'm noticing is that people using aol are having a this problem.

Sean

On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, LByrne21 wrote:

> Albert:  I have the same thing, as LueAnn does. Some of your e-mail has a line
> thru some of your message.  It can be read.....it's just "interesting" as to
> why this happens.    Lavergne
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 16:26:19 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:05:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.14558.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.2416.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dawn,

Here are the basics, as I see them,  reprinted from "The Help Desk" on
our website.

1)Always work with a
        clean tip. (We tin our iron tips up a lot higher up the
        tip than the manufacturer does.) Use a sal-ammoniac block
        to tin your tip and for cleaning.
 2)  Watch your temperature.
        If immediately after cleaning your tip you see it
        changing color to gold or purple (kind of iridescent
        looking) your iron is too hot. Keep in mind that a dirty
        iron does not melt solder well. A common mistake is to
        assume that when the solder doesn't melt it means that
        the iron is too cool, which leads people to turn the heat
        up when it was really too hot in the first place!<br>
        (An added irony is that while an overheated dirty iron
        won't melt solder well it can still be a remarkably
        efficient tool for cracking your glass.)

3)  Be sure to use enough
        flux, but not too much (we use a
        liquid flux, not paste). If your work fizzes and boils as
        you solder you are probably using too much flux. (There
        are a couple of brands of flux that are very watery and
        are more prone to this behavior.) 
        The specific flux you choose can make all the difference.
        In fact the company that makes our favorite flux also
        makes our least favorite flux as well! 
4)  If you are sure your
        iron is not too hot but it gets dirty quickly as soon as
        you start melting solder onto it try several different
        brands of solder. You would be surprised at the
        differences in handling between even well respected
        brands. (We use solder made with only virgin metals. We
        find that it has less" junk" in it that dirties
        the iron tip.) 

5)  For building up a thick bead
        around the edge switch to a 50/50 solder. (It's thicker
        in it's molten state than 60/40.) Don't let the iron get
        too hot for this operation. The hotter it is the less
        viscous (thinner) your solder will run. Thin solder just
        won't stand up very high. Like comparing water to whipped
        cream. The thick stuff stands up a lot higher

6)  Feed the solder onto
        the iron tip rather high up. If the iron is clean enough
        the solder will seem to disappear into the tip and
        re-emerge at the bottom. (This will allow the solder to
        gain the full temperature of the tip before it flows down
        to the copper foil.)
        If your solder forms balls or lumps that tend to fall off
        the tip rather than disappear into it, the tip is not
        clean enough and needs to be heated to a high heat and
        cleaned thoroughly on a sal-ammoniac block

7)  Use sal-ammoniac water.
        Mix a couple of teaspoons broken from a sal-ammoniac
        tinning block into a cup of water. Each time you allow
        your iron to rest, even for a brief interval, before
        returning to work you should sharply    jab the tinned portion of
the tip (and only            the  tip) into the sal-ammoniac water. If
done
        suddenly enough the shock of the sudden immersion will
        produce a kissing sound and all of the junk and crud on
        the iron tip will break away and leave the tip clean and
        shiny.

8)   Make sure to maintain  firm  contact on your foil with the iron.
        Good soldering is all about heat transfer. If you don't
        get your foil heated up adequately you can't get a good
        bead.

Finally, as far as building a
good edge bead, we have detailed instructions in both our Holiday
Portfolio and Creatures
Great and Small books.

If you would like a free reprint of these instructions, visit The Help
Desk at our site for instructions.           www.dodgestudio.com

Gary Dodge		Dodge Studio Designs


On Mon, 12 Jan 98 10:48:51 PST Dawn <dawnm@mustang.hwy66.com> writes:
>I believe I'll take Mike Peck's advice and give my Weller 100 another
>shot before buying a different iron.  (Have spent too much on glass
>lately!)  I'll take it off the extension cord and have another outlet 
>put=
> in, and use it on a dedicated circuit.  You would think that would be 
>=
>a 
>simple task to get done, considering I live with an 
>electrician/plumber. =
> But, I have been asking for that for quite some time now, as well as 
>a =
>
>new light fixture put in over my workbench.  And yes, my sink does 
>leak...  ;-) <g>
>
>I'm also going to switch to a wider tip as suggested to help retain 
>the =
>
>heat.  As someone pointed out, I must be pulling the bead too quickly. 
>=
>
> Although, I did not realize this was possible and thought that 
>running =
>
>the bead quickly was the objective.  I try to go quickly so I don't 
>get =
>
>too much solder on the bead and end up with big, ugly solder lines.  I 
>=
>
>was trying to get small, smooth inconspicuous lines, so I was moving 
>as quickly as possible.
>
>Zane mentioned the Hexacon iron puts a bead on the piece as you 
>are doing preliminary soldering, and therefore, "the first swipe is 
>the =
>
>last swipe".  Why is this?  What is there about the Hexacon that 
>would make this difference?  I thought you only had to do a tack 
>soldering to joints and then run your bead.  Do you need to solder the 
>=
>
>entire project and then go back to run your bead normally?
>
>My conclusion is that I really know very little about soldering and 
>probably need to take a hands-on course to be shown how to do it 
>correctly. My instructor at the craft shop taught us to go along the 
>seam and drop balls of solder along it, and then run the iron from 
>ball =
>
>to ball to melt them into a bead.  It didn't take me long to discover 
>I =
>
>didn't like this approach at all because of the uneven bead I was 
>getting.  So I read a book & tried teaching myself another way.  Bungi 
>=
>
>is a great teaching tool, and sometimes, what I learn is that I have 
>an =
>
>awful lot more to learn!
>
>Thanks for the help and suggestions.
>Dawn
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 16:38:14 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!WhispyBlu
From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:34:12 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.03412.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 98-01-12 18:08:30 EST, you write:

<< The pattern I'm noticing is that people using aol are having a this
problem. >>

I think you are probably correct, Sean, but as long as I can read it it's just
not a problem, merely an odd thing.  

Well Howard - I did change the subject didn't I.  So how's the lampmaking
business?

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 16:49:38 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:45:47 +0000
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Dear EliZabeth,

GREAT!! Thank you for that!!!
Very Useful;
Am trying to get my head into gear for the new "teaching season",  am 
combining BIG Aitumn cleaning with BIG Spring cleaning ( Toby will 
most definitely need a bath!!!), Also preparing for one of my 
Godson's  impending visit from Istanbul (14 years old and his very 
first trip abroad on his OWN!! His mother is  really playing Mother 
Hen in a big way!!). 
How did you survive the storms??

Thanks again for the info!
....In a Rush...
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (Herts.)


EliZabeth in Bournemouth (UK) wrote:
 For any bunginian who enjoys chat 
forums, have a look at Hetleys newly set up one. At the moment their 
site is a bit overframed for my liking, so I have bookmarked just the 
chat forum page at http://www.hetleys.co.uk/disc1_frm.htm. Not many 
people have discovered it yet, but Hetleys are keen to help answer 
any questions posed, and so far have posted replies quickly if they 
have an answer at their fingertips. Elizabeth & Sam Bournemouth 
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 17:05:22 1998
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Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 20:02:01 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-12 16:24:42 EST, you write:

<< 
 Albert:  I have the same thing, as LueAnn does. Some of your e-mail has a
line
 thru some of your message.  It can be read.....it's just "interesting" as to
 why this happens.   >>

Me too Albert,    I'm using AOL .....Strange
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 17:31:38 1998
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From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
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Subject: Re: Windows of North America
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:30:09 -0800
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> The pictures of the work by Powers Illustrated Stained Glass Studio are
> really phenomenal.  They utilize larger expanses of solder and slivers of
> glass to create some very realistic pieces of art. I hope to have some
> time later today to go in and look at their work on their web site.  They
> used some very interesting colors of glass for the chief's face that I
> wanted to ask about.

Would you share that site with us?
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 17:59:11 1998
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From: "Howard and Elaine Rubin" <Weaver51@teleport.com>
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Subject: soldering
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 17:56:58 -0800
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There is NO easy substitution for carefully fitting the glass. Wide and
irregular beads are often caused by the gaps in the fitting of the glass.

I still maintain that the more heat the better and as one gets faster, it
is easier to make clean beads.
I have run one time passes on 10" high 8 panel lamps (45degree joints) with
fine results.
The Tiffany style small piece lamps are easier to solder as they usually
have small runs to solder and a lot of joints to cross and fix a bad run.

As for flux, I recommend a paste flux for long term projects (does not
oxidize as fast) and a good water based one for a project that will be done
in 5 to 6 weeks. I do NOT use any laco flux at all and find I have trouble
soldering with it. All fluxes are used in moderation, as flooding a project
does not make it solder better.
Dirt comes from impurities in solder and flux, primarily heated enough to
carbonize and then it acts as an insulator on the tip of the iron and does
not allow the heat to transfer.

The more you do, the better it gets.....

enjoy...........H
weaver51@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~cbs/howard
enmeshed in the internet
trapped in the world wide web

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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:29:25 1998
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From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
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Subject: Hi!-request for cement recipe
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:28:30 -0500
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Hi Michea'l -

We've had a couple of rather =

extensive discussions on cement
mixtures here before you came on
board and there should be tons of
info, including recipes, in the archives.
The most important thing, though, is
do not use Plaster of Paris or Portland
cement in your mixtures - they are
both damaging to your windows =

according to our resident expert,
Julie Sloan, whose book "Conservation
of Stained Glass in America" goes
into a great deal of detail explaining
these matters.

If no one else has mailed you off-bungi,
let me know and I'll send you the =

recipe.  Your stained glass supplier also
sells a two-part for cementing stained
glass called Miracle Mudd and unless
you're cementing tons of windows that
might be a good way to go.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/


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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:30:12 1998
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Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:28:22 -0500
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Hi Dawn-

Maybe you should take that vacation
in Colorado this summer <g>!  We'll
teach you how to solder okay!  It's so
hard to explain this stuff in words.  Here's
how we do copperfoil:  after fluxing, tack
solder to hold the whole shebang in =

place, then go back and run your bead.
We don't tin first, but that helps if your
iron doesn't run hot enough.  The
Hexacons or bigger Wellers run hot
enough where you can run a fast bead
easily without losing oomph.  On this
one I agree with young Mr. Savad, the
hotter the better.  Unless, of course, you
don't run a fast bead in which case you'll
have major melt-through all the time.
Depends on where you're  at in skill
or style.  Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:40:03 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:35:32 +0000
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Carol,

Thank you so much for your kind words.
You can imagine what the "repair necessity" did to my ego and the 
rest of it. I do hope to be able to post the photos (when I have 
taken 'n developed them etc) on my WEB-page, but that will be a while 
yet. I am still trying to catch up with what I did about 18-24 months 
ago.

And anyhow.... from your own words.... isn't it all a very good 
example of "Bungi Sharing".  Things just don't happen over-night.
The speed of communication these days is so fast. Germination and 
realization is another matter. THAT might take weeks, months, 
sometimes a year or so.
Tomorrow (sorry.... today!!) I am having a session with 
"Computer-Guru Kris" to put a few more photos on my web-page of work 
I did a couple of years ago. I hope also to have some "baby-pics" of 
Toby.
Next week will see my FIRST photo-session of these panels. I may have 
to go back several times before I get what I want...
It's not the FIRST Church-commission I have done. I have done a 
number of others before.
They have all been commissioned to commemorate unusual and (perhaps 
eccentric) people. I am not into cherubs, saints and angels - on the 
whole, so my MY particular interprtetations are very personal, yet 
striving to  harmonize with the particular congregation I am working 
with/for., while trying to  retain my own particular 
style/interpretation of what stained glass is all about.
 Thank you so much for your kind comments.
 Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Carol wrote:

 Ah Elisabeth, 
what a moment that must have been for you...I remember how you 
laboured over possible mounting systems for these panels last year.  
I remember when you let us know the woman had her second heart attack 
and that the rush was on.  And now to hear of the breaks...we've all 
been in this along with you to some extent.

>I had put down in writing my own impressions of Ernest post-humously and
how my interpretations were translated into stained glass.  I gave them
about 3 type-written >pages ... read out my entire notes. It was 
>almost embarrassing. Nevertheless, it was also very moving. 

Elisabeth, how wonderful.  This to my mind is truly what stained glass is
about...or at least why I do it...to make an impact on the viewer and also
to tell a story, as well as providing something nice to look at.

I've recently come to a realization that although I've never done a church
panel, many of my pieces are very spiritual.  You must be feeling so honored
(at a deep, rather than publicity level) to have made such an ongoing impact
on the congregation.

>During  last prayers, the (new) Minister made a point of telling the 
>Congration that THIS time, not to shut their eyes, but to look at the 
>panels and meditate on them.

Again, I have to ask...Isn't this why stained glass panels were originally
put into churches...so the congregation could learn from the story or
message within them?

All the best

Carol

PS Tail wags from Kayla to Toby!

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----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:40:04 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Why flux? 'n other bits...
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:35:32 +0000
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Dear Dani,
I would have loved to have replied to you & this question ages 
ago.... , but I am not a chemist. In the meantime, there have been 
some wonderful "chemical" explanations involving glycerin, zinc 
chloride, hydrochloric acid,  muriatic acid and whatever else......
I sit here and turn  round and round my stick of good old-fashined, 
genuine tallow and wonder how THAT fits into the scheme of things...? 
I only infrequently do anything in copper-foil and have on one or two 
 occasions used TALLOW-flux instead of the liquid ones (if I have 
run out). It's more difficult to wash off, but it works just as well 
for me. I often demonstrate to my students what happens if they don't 
flux their work (tallow OR liquid). In lead there is ALWAYS one joint 
that gets forgotten!
I can accept the chemical explanations  superficially when  our 
chemical experts explain reactions of the LIQUID fluxes. But what 
about TALLOW?? And if you continue the THOUGHT of tallow; it was the 
"parent" of the modern candle (I.e. wax, mixed with stearin). So what 
if you have even run out of good old-fashion tallow - could one try 
and use a modern  stearin candle as an "emergency substitute" ???
Must try it some time!! ;-> And if it works, what might be the 
chemical explanations for it working??
Interesting thought. Reminds me slightly of the coat-hanger issue 
(THAT was fun!!)

I have just been "lurking" this last week (so much to do) and 
therefore accumulated about 500 e-mails to go through, about 200 just 
in the last few days in my Bungi list. I seem to have missed all the 
"fun" about the Crash. Have had no problems whatsoever here. - Ah, 
well- , Thanks Great Big Computer-Guru Kris (who must be Obeyed) who 
"kitted me out" with Pegasus. It may not sing, whistle, dance and 
make the afternoon tea, but it seems to work.....

EliZabeth in Bournemouth: Have just had another "peep" at Hetley's 
page and their newly created Forum in UK. Potentially it could be 
absolutely GREAT!! You may have noticed, I told them to join Bungi 
(Dave & Glenna - please note!!)
But it would seem that Hetley's is an unnecessarily complicated 
chat-forum; As I understand it, one would have to stay on-line to 
reply and/or make an input to the forum. I too am a computer nerd. 
But I find that down-loading the inputs much "fussier" than at Bungi 
and replying while having a particular message on screen - i.e. so 
you can  reply spontaneously - means that you actually have to stay 
on-line. Am I correct or is there a better way...? Perhaps I have 
just got used to Bungi way of doing things.

Glenna,  I loved your "provoked" pic!!!  I saw that one BEFORE I saw 
the "other one". ""Hallelujah!", I said, while Toby made a quick 
dash for downstairs.......his  back bristling!!!

Back to "lurk-mode", class-planning,  house autumn/spring cleaning 
and my poor, patient, waiting customers. Oh yes, and the 
Tax-Man..!!!! (HE is NOT patient!!!)
....and my patient friends out there...still waiting for my 
replies....
 Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK (...waiting for Spring...)
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:40:07 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:35:32 +0000
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Hi Dani,
Thanks!!
Would you believe it!!!.... I cancelled "Elisabeth's Cooking 
Session" this Christmas and we had a Chinese Take-Away instead!!! 
The duck that I bought got shoved into the freezer!!
For the first time in 20-odd years, Elisabeth went on "strike"....
It was GREAT!!!
Thanks!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Dani wrote:
Congratulations, Elisabeth!  Thanks for sharing with us.  (I knew 
your future held something GREAT to replace the
lack of Christmas goose!)

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 18:40:38 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Dedication Ceremony
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Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 03:35:32 +0000
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Dear Lavergne,
Not only have a number of people made lovely warm comments to me 
"In-Group", I have also so many lovely "off-group" e-mails about 
these panels. 
Again, thank you.
I am a bit of a "dinosaur", and often unprepared for the speed of 
communications as they now are these days; I need time to "mull 
things over", BEFORE I  am able to reply. Old-fashioned perhaps, but 
it works for me. 
The occasion wasn't exactly "fun", but it was really quite moving and 
I left,  thinking "Did I REALLY do this???"
I am so glad if you think my ways, thoughts, approach "matters".
I have been quiet for a while, but I am really trying to catch my 
tail.....
Full pics and "words" will appear on my web-page eventually.
(I still have to post Chartres!!!)
Thank you..... and I'll do my best....
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

 Elisabeth:  What fun! 
what pleasure!  what satisfaction! when reading any of your input 
into bungi.  Whether sharing the experience of you and Toby 
frolicking in the fields by your home, or,  traveling to Chartres to 
view the splendor of stained glass, or, reading your ideas on "my 
humble trade".......you manage to write so that I feel, see, and 
share, these marvelous places and the things you write about.      I 
thoroughly enjoyed the dedication ceremony and the delightful people 
who made it all possible (via your description)......      May we 
continue to be a part  of your "happenings"  when we, ourselves, 
cannot be there, and to  share your thoughts on things that are 
meaningful to you...stained glass, or not.                            
        
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 19:18:09 1998
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Subject: confusing
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:14:19 EST
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I have barely had time to begin sorting through all the information about
soldering irons and now we have moved on to flux.  I'll be getting back to the
group about irons but I would appreciate some information about flux.  I have
used both paste and liquid flux.  Here goes the questions.  1.  are all liquid
flux water base? 
2.  what is laco flux?      3.  what is tallow flux?    4. if allowed, what
are some of the brand names of fluxes that others would recommend?   LuAnn
(Whispy Blu@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 19:22:22 1998
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Subject: Re: Subscribe/attachments
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:21:05 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan12.17215.0>
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Hi Carole-

I had to let you know how much I =

loved the slogan at the end of your
post!  We are considering using =

"Hi Mom, I'm playing with broken
glass!" :-))

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 19:22:47 1998
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Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:21:20 -0500
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Hi Gary-

Good bunch of tips on soldering -
I'm saving this post for my next
class!  Also, thanks to you and
Valerie both for tackling the "Why
flux" question - If I want more info
I'll take Valerie's advice and talk
to a physics teacher (my web
meister happens to teach physics
at the Air Force Academy) -- if I want
more info, which I probably don't!;-)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 19:23:22 1998
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Subject: Re: New UK stained glass chat forum
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:21:13 -0500
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Yes, thanks for the chat room at =

Hetley's info.  If any of you over the
pond visit anytime soon would you
mind asking about the lead mills?
I know Hetley's used to make and
sell them.  I'll check, too, as soon
as we get out from under this TON
of work - gads.  It's sure a busier
January than usual.  It really beats
two years ago when we had two city
construction projects meeting at our
front door and all traffic was diverted
around us.  Almost went under that
year!  I think the two attributes that
contribute most to long-term success
are sheer stupidity and dogged =

stubborness. ;-)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
http://eme.usa.net/greerstudios/
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 19:40:46 1998
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Subject: Re: Why flux? 'n other bits...
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 22:39:09 -0500
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Elisabeth writes:

"In lead there is ALWAYS one
joint that gets forgotten".

We call that a "spirit path" - something
we picked up from native American
Indian jewelers!  Of course, it's very bad
luck to go back and fix it (not to mention
that it ruins the beautiful patina on the
lead). ;-)  And speaking of luck, of course
we all know it's good luck for the artist
to bleed on his glass.  ( I must build
the luckiest windows in the history of
mankind!)

Sorry to hear the tax man is breathing
down your neck - at least over here
we get until April 15th to deal with our
Infernal Revenue Service!

Best regards,

Dani Greer (who with hubby, Michael
installed five of the six World Arena =

windows today and feels very much
better -- grand opening is Thursday.
Missing my coffee as much as pj does!)
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 21:49:38 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: New UK stained glass chat forum
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 00:37:51, -0500
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Hetley's info.  If any of you over the
pond visit anytime soon would you
mind asking about the lead mills?
I know Hetley's used to make and
sell them. <snip>
Dani Greer

I E-mailed Henleys a few weeks ago. They knew nothing and referred me 
to Stillmans who said they did not know and offered to sell me pre 
made lead came. I get along well with the lead products available 
from the USA and Canada and would fear the shipping charges from 
Belgium although they have some interesting steel reinforced lead. As 
of now my search for a source of hand powered lead mills is at a 
standstill.
Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau (Qualified in submarines Runner, Skipjack, Triton and 
Manta.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Mon Jan 12 22:32:19 1998
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From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Flux
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 01:26:55, -0500
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LuAnn wrires;
I have barely had time to begin sorting through all the information 
about
soldering irons and now we have moved on to flux.  I'll be getting 
back to the
group about irons but I would appreciate some information about flux. 
 I have
used both paste and liquid flux.  Here goes the questions.  1.  are 
all liquid
flux water base? 
2.  what is laco flux?      3.  what is tallow flux?    4. if allowed,
 what
are some of the brand names of fluxes that others would recommend?   
LuAnn
(Whispy Blu@aol.com

1. I think (not sure) the gell fluxes are glycern based. Most are 
water based and seem to depend on zinc chloride for fluxing.

2. La-Co Brite is a brand name. The exact La-Co product used in SG 
work is non-acid water based. It is strong and best used on lead came 
rework and rebar. Can be cut 50/50 with water for use where lighter 
fluxing is needed like copper foil. Smells but does the job.

3. Tallow flux is rendered animal fat. Better grades of candles may 
be tallow based. Just rub a small amount on the area to be soldered 
and solder. Smells a bit and is waxy to clean up. IMO makes a 
smoother bead than most fluxes. To try just cut a piece of fat from 
your next steak and use it to flux. Not the best choice for copper 
foil work where super cleanup is required prior to applying patina.

4. I like Glasflux, a gell, for most work to be completed in one 
sitting. Nokorode, a paste, is a bit stronger and does not burn if 
left on when soldering is not completed in one sitting. La-Co, a 
liquid, is good for heavy duty fluxing but will tend to burn if left 
on raw copper for more than few minutes. By burning I mean corrosion 
requiring steel wire brushing to cleanup before re fluxing.
Not fluxed, Bob



____
Bob Duchesneau (Qualified in submarines Runner, Skipjack, Triton and 
Manta.) Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 00:47:11 1998
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
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Subject: Re: Lead mills
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:46:27 +0000
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Sam & I have been phoning around our UK contacts and have had no luck with
finding a supplier of lead mills.
Apparently since various new rules and regulations about safety etc it is
assumed that no-one wants to mill their own nowadays.
Sorry, folks - we did try.
All we can do is keep our ears open for the occasional visitor who boasts
that their grandfather used to make his own lead, in case they still have
the equipment in the garage and want to sell it.
I have kept a note of those who expressed an interest just in case.
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 00:47:46 1998
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Subject: Re: Why flux? 'n other bits...
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:46:28 +0000
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At 03:35 13/01/98 +0000, EliSabeth wrote:

>EliZabeth in Bournemouth: Have just had another "peep" at Hetley's 
>page and their newly created Forum in UK. Potentially it could be 
>absolutely GREAT!! You may have noticed, I told them to join Bungi 
>(Dave & Glenna - please note!!)
>But it would seem that Hetley's is an unnecessarily complicated 
>chat-forum; As I understand it, one would have to stay on-line to 
>reply and/or make an input to the forum. I too am a computer nerd. 
>But I find that down-loading the inputs much "fussier" than at Bungi 
>and replying while having a particular message on screen - i.e. so 
>you can  reply spontaneously - means that you actually have to stay 
>on-line. Am I correct or is there a better way...? Perhaps I have 
>just got used to Bungi way of doing things.

Yes, to have to read and reply on line will stop quite a few UK netizens
participating I am sure.  But the US chat boards I have found all work the
same way - as far as I know in the US you don't actually pay a phone bill
for every second you are on line.
I have been thinking for a while that until our phone companies allow free
local calls (most internet service providers are at the end of a local call
down here anyway) the full benefit of this WWW of ours will not be
experienced by those of us having to remember that every second on line adds
to the expense.
Of course lots of web sites are well worth the cost of waiting for them to
load, but if I know it will cost 20 pence just to see someones fancy
graphics I do sometimes stop the page loading and move on elsewhere.

Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 05:04:03 1998
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From: Linda Campbell <lcbell@memach.com>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RE: Why flux? 'n other bits...
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:05:15 -0500
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Not that I haven't bled my fair share on the glass but I seem to get =
more paper cut from handling large drawings at work. I guess I'm more =
careful around the class 'cause it has a reputation for cutting and I =
forget how dangerous the paper can be...and how painful since a lot of =
the prints have ammonia on them from printing process.=20

Ouch! That explains why my pattern pieces are spattered with blood too.

Linda Campbell
Michael said:

ead). ;-)  And speaking of luck, of course
we all know it's good luck for the artist
to bleed on his glass.  ( I must build
the luckiest windows in the history of
mankind!)


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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 05:11:22 1998
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Subject: Soldering, Was: RE: Weller 100
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:12:32 -0500
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Gary said:

8)   Make sure to maintain  firm  contact on your foil with the iron.
        Good soldering is all about heat transfer. If you don't
        get your foil heated up adequately you can't get a good
        bead.

Well, at last someone has told me to actually touch the foil with the =
solder tip. Several sources have told me to just "hover" over the foil =
and let the solder "run" on to the foil. This mad no sense to me and I =
couldn't do it and make an even bead anyway.=20

Thanks, Gary for clearing this up for me.


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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 07:22:16 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Soldering, Was: RE: Weller 100
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:20:23 -0500
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Linda Campbell wrote:
> 
> Gary said:
> 
> 8)   Make sure to maintain  firm  contact on your foil with the iron.
>         Good soldering is all about heat transfer. If you don't
>         get your foil heated up adequately you can't get a good
>         bead.
> 
> Well, at last someone has told me to actually touch the foil with the =
> solder tip. Several sources have told me to just "hover" over the foil =
> and let the solder "run" on to the foil. This mad no sense to me and I =
> couldn't do it and make an even bead anyway.=20
> 
> Thanks, Gary for clearing this up for me.
> 
> ----
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


that is one method, and it's difficult to do. when i solder i tough the
corner of the tip to the foil. if you do hover you have to pay close
attention to the solder flowing onto the foil, and not pay attention
directly to the tip. you need a lightweight iron to hover, otherwise it
will kill your arm.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 08:04:20 1998
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From: Carl Childers <shyguy@vdot.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:10:01 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.6101.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.121.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Cox's Mower Service
Precedence: bulk

The software that AOL uses to read email is a proprietary product. The AOL system
(unless they've changed lately), does not use SMTP protocalls. You can only read
your mail on AOL using their reader software. If you have Internet access, (not
thru AOL), you can have a 'shell' account, or a PPP account. You can use Pine,
Eudora, Netscape, MSIE, or any other pay for, Shareware or free software you
choose that works with the NET. There are 'plain vanilla' and 'bells and
whistles' varieties. When a plain vanilla reader gets a bells and whistles
message, 'your results may vary'.
Some mail software allows you to send HTML in the mail. HTML is the stuff that
makes a web page fancy (sound, graphic, animation, etc.). If your reader doesn't
know what to do with the HTML, it tries to convert it to ?something? that it can
handle.
The problem with mail groups is that people don't use the same *anything*, in
glass or computers. I have been tracking the complaints from the people who have
been having problems with mail. The 'blow up' or 'lock up'  problems from last
week were all from MSIE users, except for one Eudora user. I have had problems
with people who sent 'signature' files that have animation and sound, since I
read this at work and do not have a sound card on this machine. The reader trying
to play music, and the pc not have MIDI or wav capability creates a problem.
How can you help? Check the settings on your software, look for a 'setting' or
'preferences' on the toolbar. Plain mail should not have attachments, unless your
are sending an attachment.(a .doc or .jpg file). Don't sent a large jpg or gif
file to the mail list. It plays havoc with a number of mail servers. If you have
something to share, offer it to the group, and send it ONLY to those that ASK for
it.

Thank you for your support.
PS I'm not knocking AOL, just defining why people get strange results (I still
keep an AOL account for business reasons)

PPS - I don't sent PS's

Glasangels wrote:

> Me too Albert,    I'm using AOL .....Strange



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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 08:26:29 1998
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Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:20:51 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-12 18:08:35 EST, you write:

> The pattern I'm noticing is that people using aol are having a this problem.
>  
but only with alberts messages
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 08:50:57 1998
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Subject: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 10:19:02 PST
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Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
http://www.staind-glass.com.

But, I am not having any luck connecting to their site at all.  I keep
getting an error message.  I have searched using 5 or 6 different
search engines, and still can't come up with another address.

I did find a listing for them in one of the on-line yellow pages.  They 
are listed there as Powers Brothers Stained Glass.  It did not list an 
e-mail address for them.  Although, I did find an address for a John 
Powers in Scottsdale, Arizona.  I sent him a message to find out if 
it is the same John Powers.

Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
studio?

Dawn
 
> Dawn - did you make a note of Powers Illustrated Stained Glass Studio web
> site address?
> Elizabeth & Sam
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:16:43 1998
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Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:16:00 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.5160.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.18192.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service  & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Dawn, et. al.

Give this a try:

http://www.powellbrosglassart.com/

Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.


Dawn wrote:
> 
> Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
> http://www.staind-glass.com.
> 
> But, I am not having any luck connecting to their site at all.
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:27:00 1998
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From: ae479@detroit.freenet.org (Sue Becker)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: ugly patina
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:25:37 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801131725.MAA05977@detroit.freenet.org>
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This comes from George Pozan, a member of our local glass group.

After the "mud" in your panel has set, wash with hot water and detergent
soap, rinse with hot water.  Apply the patina while it is still damp
(warmth and dampness seems to improve the color).  Rinse again to remove
patina from the glass and allow to dry.  Apply spray wax (George uses  
finishing compound) and let stand until completely dry.  Buff to your 
satisfaction.

I've tried it - it works.

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:35:46 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 10:50:24 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.185024.0>
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Gary and all others,  

Thanks for the excellent tips on soldering.   I am using a 
sal-ammoniac block for cleaning, and using Canfield 60/40 solder.
Any opinions out there on the purity of this solder?

I have not been using sal-ammoniac water, but will give that a try 
right away.

I am using Weller tips, and I believe they are already "tinned".  Can 
you explain this process to me a little more and what exactly I should
be doing to "tin" my tips?

What is the correct way to use my sal-ammoniac block when 
cleaning my tip?  

Although I have a book of stained glass basics, I find there are
many ways to do things and I value the experience and opinion of
those on the list very highly.  Therefore, I would like to know your
methods.  My goal is definitely not to bore the pants off all the 
experts out there with these very elementary questions, but to 
benefit from your experience.  You are all so great!   

Dawn

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:41:57 1998
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From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Internet Message 
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:38:28, -0500
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Dawn writes:
Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
http://www.staind-glass.com.

Try:            http://www.stainedglass.com/     For a site called 
Stained Glass Solutions.

Not sure this is the site you want but it looked interesting.

____
Bob Duchesneau  Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow 
Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:42:01 1998
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From: Dawn <dawnm@mail.fidnet.com>
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Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 11:50:35 PST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.195035.0>
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Thanks Shirley, but the one I was looking for was the Powers Brothers, =
not Powell Brothers.  I appreciate it though.  BTW, had visited the Powel=
l Brothers site before, and as  I recall, they had some very unusual stai=
ned glass sculptures.

Moooo to the cows,
Dawn

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:47:18 1998
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Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:44:17 EST
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I too got text with lines through it.  I am on AOL also......
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 09:58:33 1998
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Subject: Weller 100
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 10:56:38 -0800
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Hi All,
Sorry this took so long to reply on the question of the Hakko tip--I
just got back to my mail messages.  My tip is tinned 1/4 of the way,
Mike, and I haven't had any trouble with the temp. I find my solder has
a nice even bead with a high shine.  I still use my Weller 100 for lead
work as I know that it will not melt my lead.
Dianne
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 10:12:07 1998
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Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:11:19 CST 6CDT
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Dawn--

No need to apologize for "elementary questions" (although I kind of 
enjoyed the mental image of pantless bored experts).  Anyway, I think 
we can all learn something from hearing how others do things that we 
might think there's only ONE way to do....

I was surprised that not everyone knew the bit about crimping nuggets 
by twirling them in a jar--and am trying to think of other things of 
that ilk that maybe should be passed along!

Kaye 


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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 10:14:59 1998
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Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:15:06 +0000
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At 10:19 13/01/98 PST, you wrote:
>Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
>http://www.staind-glass.com.
>
>But, I am not having any luck connecting to their site at all.  I keep
>getting an error message.  I have searched using 5 or 6 different
>search engines, and still can't come up with another address.
>
>I did find a listing for them in one of the on-line yellow pages.  They 
>are listed there as Powers Brothers Stained Glass.  It did not list an 
>e-mail address for them.  Although, I did find an address for a John 
>Powers in Scottsdale, Arizona.  I sent him a message to find out if 
>it is the same John Powers.
>
>Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
>studio?
>
>Dawn
> 
Could it possibly be Powell Brothers, if so their url is
http://powellbrosglassart.com/index.html
Some really interesting 3 dimensional stuff as well as great windows
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 10:49:54 1998
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X-Path: mwt.net!alcamoz
From: "len alcamo" <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: powell bros
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:59:32 -0600
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Just visited the powell bros site , their pieces represent a fine
cross-section of styles and techniques

If you notice, the flat panels are constructed for the most part using lead,
and the superiority of this material is very evident in the designs..... the
sharpness of line, variations of line width as a design element, and of
course the enhanced structural support  on the large scale pieces are well
presented in the examples.

For those who want to advance their skills by including leaded glass work
and hopefully larger scale commissions in the future, consider visiting
their site.  Its a decent  visual primer.

A picture IS worth a thousand words

Len




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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 11:02:24 1998
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From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:09:40 +0000
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> Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
> studio?

I'm not in Scottsdale (worse luck!), but I do show

Powers Stained Glass
7110 E Thomas Rd
Scottsdale AZ 85251 - 6319


Albert

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 11:06:14 1998
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Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 13:09:43 +0000
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> From:          Dawn <dawnm@mustang.hwy66.com>

> Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
> http://www.staind-glass.com.
> 
try http://www.stainedglass.com/

Don M. McDonald
Web Design
Corporate Communications Technology
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 11:25:13 1998
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From: Charles Spitzer <charlie@az.stratus.com>
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Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 12:24:29 -0700
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You wrote:
> Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
> studio?
>
> I'm not in Scottsdale (worse luck!), but I do show
>
> Powers Stained Glass
> 7110 E Thomas Rd
> Scottsdale AZ 85251 - 6319

i'm near scottsdale (good luck!), and there is a powers brothers stained  
glass in the phone book. the phone number is 602 941 8272. however, i haven't  
been to the powers office.
---
Charles Spitzer
charlie@az.stratus.com
Phoenix, AZ
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 11:30:59 1998
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From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: ugly patina
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:28:57 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.92857.0>
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I'm confused about George Pozan's
technique.  Usually when you "mud"
or cement a window, you don't use
patina... the process does the job
for you.  And why would one use
soap and water on a cemented
lead window... doesn't make much
sense to me.  A leaded window is
very different from a copper foil =

window and the processes for each
are quite different.  It sounds as though
there's a little muddling of techniques
here on someone's part.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 11:31:34 1998
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To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Lead mills
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:29:04 -0500
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Thanks to all our friends in
the UK for your efforts in finding
a lead mill - I really appreciate
it.  I would appreciate it,too,  if you'd =

keep one ear out - maybe
there's a chance yet!  At some point
when things slow down and I can
spend some time on the computer,
I'll try to post it with stainedglassbiz-
didn't they have an equipment
exchange on their site or am I
thinking of someone else?

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:10:09 1998
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X-Path: verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk!s.richard
From: Steve Richard <s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:14:17 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.211417.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.19435.0@?>>
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In message <1998Jan10.19435.0@?>, dodgestudio@juno.com writes
>Dani,
>
>If you don't mind a bit of speculation here I'll tell you what I THINK I
>MAY know.... or something like that.
>
Very interesting set of speculations.  They may be right.  But, why does
tallow (animal fat) work just as well (and with many fewer risks than
the paste fluxes - unless you can get BSE from tallow!!)

Just wondering
Steve
-- 
Steve Richard
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:27:52 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Weller 100
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:24:33 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.122433.0>
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Dianne G. Maddison wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> Sorry this took so long to reply on the question of the Hakko tip--I
> just got back to my mail messages.  My tip is tinned 1/4 of the way,
> Mike, and I haven't had any trouble with the temp. I find my solder has
> a nice even bead with a high shine.  I still use my Weller 100 for lead
> work as I know that it will not melt my lead.
> Dianne
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i dunno, i guess i'm just used to the ungar liquifying the solder. the
hakko just did'nt have the umphf for me...

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:31:31 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!jroey
From: jroey@juno.com (jerri m Roey)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: nuggets in a jar
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:38:53 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.93853.0>
References: <<1970Jan1.000.0>>
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Precedence: bulk

	I hate to admit this, but I think I missed this post.  The other
night I was cleaning out my mail when I was tired, and got rid of some
things I didn't mean to.  Could someone please explain this to me either
privately (  jroey@juno.com ) or re-post.  After an ordeal of foiling 100
or so small nuggets, and saying I'd never do it again, maybe there's a
tip I need to know.

Thanks,

Jerri



On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:11:19 CST 6CDT "Kaye Sodt"
<kaye@GSA-ORSP.CROWN.NWU.EDU> writes:
>Dawn--
>
>No need to apologize for "elementary questions" (although I kind of 
>enjoyed the mental image of pantless bored experts).  Anyway, I think 
>we can all learn something from hearing how others do things that we 
>might think there's only ONE way to do....
>
>I was surprised that not everyone knew the bit about crimping nuggets 
>by twirling them in a jar--and am trying to think of other things of 
>that ilk that maybe should be passed along!
>
>Kaye 
>
>
>----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:33:36 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com (Gary B Dodge)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:27:10 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.122710.0>
References: <<1998Jan12.14558.0>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dawn,
Canfield is a great solder, but for what it's worth, I actually prefer
their 50/50!  Call me crazy.

As for the Weller tips, they do come pre-tinned, but not far enough up
the tip for my tastes.  To tin it further up you need to heat it up a lot
hotter than you would ordinarily work, then rub it firmly on the block in
one place (with some solder) until the block gets so hot it boils.  Be
sure to rub all areas you want tinned.  When it is ready you will see
that is is bright and shiny and the solder just runs up and down it like
mercury.

The block will give off choking white ammonia smoke, so work with good
ventilation.

As soon as the tip is read, turn the temperature control down and jab the
iron into sal-ammoniac water to cool it a bit before the nice new tinning
job burns off.  (This is for the Weller 80 watt and higher non-
controlled irons.  With the 100-w you may have a hard time getting the
block hot enough, especially with the 700deg, tip.)

On Tue, 13 Jan 98 10:50:24 PST Dawn <dawnm@mustang.hwy66.com> writes:
>Gary and all others,  
>
>Thanks for the excellent tips on soldering.   I am using a 
>sal-ammoniac block for cleaning, and using Canfield 60/40 solder.
>Any opinions out there on the purity of this solder?
>
>I have not been using sal-ammoniac water, but will give that a try 
>right away.
>
>I am using Weller tips, and I believe they are already "tinned".  Can 
>you explain this process to me a little more and what exactly I should
>be doing to "tin" my tips?
>
>What is the correct way to use my sal-ammoniac block when 
>cleaning my tip?  
>
>Although I have a book of stained glass basics, I find there are
>many ways to do things and I value the experience and opinion of
>those on the list very highly.  Therefore, I would like to know your
>methods.  My goal is definitely not to bore the pants off all the 
>experts out there with these very elementary questions, but to 
>benefit from your experience.  You are all so great!   
>
>Dawn
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:41:59 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Art Glass World Member Update  Indian designs
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:39:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.63953.0>
References: <<199801132147.QAA14664@ddi.digital.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I visited their books section and on page 2, 1/3 of the way down is an
indian coloring book for 80 cents.  Maybe you can find your cheif there?
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:45:19 1998
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From: "studio@stainedglass.co.uk" <studio@stainedglass.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Why flux? 'n other bits...
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:44:20 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.224420.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 03:35 13/01/98 +0000, EliSabeth wrote:

Have just had another "peep" at Hetley's 
>page and their newly created Forum in UK. Potentially it could be 
>absolutely GREAT!! You may have noticed, I told them to join Bungi 
>(Dave & Glenna - please note!!)
Yes, I noticed your plug for bungi - good on ya.
Also did you see that to a question about the availability and cost of kilns
that Sue of Hetleys after detailing the ones they stock went on to give
phone nos for alternative suppliers?  A nice touch I thought, different to
some other chat forums where mentions of other possible sources to the one
providing the site are frowned on.
Elizabeth & Sam
Bournemouth Stained Glass
http://www.stainedglass.co.uk

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 14:55:43 1998
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X-Path: ComCAT.COM!suzy
From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: nuggets in a jar
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 17:55:04 -0500
Message-ID: <199801132253.RAA14607@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Jerri wrote:
>	I hate to admit this, but I think I missed this post.  The other
>night I was cleaning out my mail when I was tired, and got rid of some
>things I didn't mean to.  Could someone please explain this to me either
>privately (  jroey@juno.com ) or re-post.  After an ordeal of foiling 100
>or so small nuggets, and saying I'd never do it again, maybe there's a
>tip I need to know.

Suzanne answers:

Too bad, Jerri, you missed a wonderful opportunity to foil your nuggets 
easily.

Foil them as usual and push the foil down with your fingers loosely. Drop 
each nugget as you are finished, into a plastic jar of some kind, and 
shake the bejeesus out of it.

Voila, they will all be crimped tightly and ready to use. It's magic.

Suzanne
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 15:00:59 1998
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From: suzanne albright <suzy@ComCAT.COM>
To: "glass bungi line" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 98 18:00:11 -0500
Message-ID: <199801132258.RAA14999@uz.ComCAT.COM>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Dawn wrote:
>
>Thanks for the excellent tips on soldering.   I am using a 
>sal-ammoniac block for cleaning, and using Canfield 60/40 solder.
>Any opinions out there on the purity of this solder?

I found a little "tip tinner" called, I believe, Multi-Core. It's from 
England and I get it at Warner-Crivellaro. Just a tiny little round thing 
that you rub your iron in and it's immediately nice and shiny. Costs 
about $6. It sure beats the sal-ammoniac block.

Seems lately Canfield isn't as pure as I thought. I've tried Hirsch and 
like that a lot better. Also one called AVM, or something like that, says 
it uses "virgin metals." Not so much crud to wipe off.

Hope this helps you,
Suzanne




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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 15:45:00 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!Shopfreaks
From: Shopfreaks <Shopfreaks@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:40:58 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.234058.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

I sure do appreciate all the tips on soldering, as I got into fusing pretty
hot and heavy for awhile (no pun intended) and when I "came back" to soldering
I found that I had apparently lost something and was having many problems.
One thing I haven't tried is the sal amoniac water.  I think I'd have trouble
with this for two reasons - correct me if I'm wrong here, but:

#1 - I have a fear of   water + elecricity + metal
#2 - water + metal tips = rusty tips.  Do they not?

Maybe it's fine, but it sounds kinda scary    8 {

Theresa
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 15:46:03 1998
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From: MsChatee <MsChatee@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Where's the mail
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:40:36 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.234036.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

One of the things I look forward to every night is sitting down at the
computer, checking my email, and learning a few stained glass tips while I am
at it.  BUT.......I haven't gotten any Bungi mail in a few days:-(  I know I
am mostly a lurker, but I read the letters faithfully.  
If something happened please re-subscribe me....I need my glass fix:-)

Thanks,
Caren
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 16:06:51 1998
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From: ANL Glass <ANLGlass@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: large panel construction?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:49:16 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.234916.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Any suggestions on how best to approach this project will be greatly
appreciated ...

A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  They
don't
want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.  They plan to
hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the panel.

Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it, but
that
we use wood moulding to hold it in place, or else the clear acrylic clips.
But
will the zinc support the weight even if it's sitting rather than hanging?
Would adding rebar help?  (I guess it would have to be soldered to the border
zinc, since there's no wood frame to tie into.)

This is the biggest panel I've ever tackled!  I'm a little out of my league
...

Thanks for help!

Marilyn
ANLGlass@aol.com
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 16:09:03 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:06:46 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.14646.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Good question, Steve, why
does tallow work?  And why
does oleic acid work?  Does
that mean linoleic acid should
work, too?  Has anyone ever
tried using olive oil?  Maybe =

we should do some trial runs
with everyday items and see
what's to discover - a new and
cleaner/better vegetarian flux??

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 16:26:19 1998
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X-Path: inspace.net!herba
From: "Herb Adler" <herba@inspace.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:36:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.13367.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I have not had any crash problems using MSIE4 with MS Outlook Express as the
e-mail product. I am able to filter messages from any source into individual
folders. All my bungi mail goes into a "stained glass" folder, and they are
all sorted by "thread" and thus all together for ease of reading. I also
know that my ISP catches spams B4 they get to me so I get none of that. BTW,
for those of you experiencing these problems if you haven't already, please
check with your ISP.
My sympathy to all of you having this problem
-----Original Message-----
From: Don McDonald <don@ccti.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!


--
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 16:33:49 1998
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X-Path: inspace.net!herba
From: "Herb Adler" <herba@inspace.net>
To: "Stained Glass" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Nightlights
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:45:30 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.134530.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

How has anyone solved this problem w/ nitelights/
At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the receptacle
has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
installation.
Since I don't like my "tulips" growing sideways, I'm looking for a way to
handle this situation. Any ideas?

Herb in Orlando

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 16:40:35 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:38:23 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.143823.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.234058.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Shopfreaks wrote:
> 
> I sure do appreciate all the tips on soldering, as I got into fusing pretty
> hot and heavy for awhile (no pun intended) and when I "came back" to soldering
> I found that I had apparently lost something and was having many problems.
> One thing I haven't tried is the sal amoniac water.  I think I'd have trouble
> with this for two reasons - correct me if I'm wrong here, but:
> 
> #1 - I have a fear of   water + elecricity + metal
> #2 - water + metal tips = rusty tips.  Do they not?
> 
> Maybe it's fine, but it sounds kinda scary    8 {
> 
> Theresa
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


i've never heard of sal amoniac water. but you would'nt be dipping
something electrical in it, you would be dipping something hot into it.

the tips are usaully made of copper or steel, but are usaully tinned, so
it won't really rust.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 17:03:43 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:01:17 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.15117.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.134530.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Herb Adler wrote:
> 
> How has anyone solved this problem w/ nitelights/
> At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the receptacle
> has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
> installation.
> Since I don't like my "tulips" growing sideways, I'm looking for a way to
> handle this situation. Any ideas?
> 
> Herb in Orlando
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

maybe they make sideways night lights. or maybe you can make the light
flat, but twice the size as normal, so it covers everything. it might
look a little silly though.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 17:24:43 1998
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X-Path: intrastar.net!ssuter
From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:22:45 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.132245.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.14646.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service  & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Well Dani,
Hey Dani,

This sounded like such fun, I did a little experimenting
with common households "acids".  The following are my
personal results using a Weller l00 iron with 800 tip. 
These figures are based using Glastar Gel Flux being rated
at 10:

100% Lye w/enough water to make paste  0
Household ammonia                      0
Vinegar (5% acidity)                   4
Olive oil                              4
Lemon Juice (reconstituted)            8
50/50% Lemon Juice/Olive Oil           6
Patchouli oil                          2 (but it smelled
great!)

All these tests were done with clean flux brushes on copper
foil (7/32" black-back) and Canfield 50/50 solder.

Feeling like Bill Nye, The Science Guy or Mr. Wizard,
Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.


Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Good question, Steve, why
> does tallow work?  And why
> does oleic acid work?  Does
> that mean linoleic acid should
> work, too?  Has anyone ever
> tried using olive oil?
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 17:45:19 1998
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	via smail with stdio
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	for rglass-42; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:44:00 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: aol.com!SSparks99
From: SSparks99 <SSparks99@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: multipart/mixed;
Subject: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:26:51 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.12651.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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To anyone using AOL, please put the word out that AOL wants to charge those
people using AOL an extra fee on top of the $19.95 per month already charged
for unlimited usage. 

Doesn't this defeat the purpose of "unlimited usage". 

We need someone versed in the law here.

Please sign and forward to let the people know what's going on here.

I personally say GO TO BELLSOUTH

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From: PhatBrat38 <PhatBrat38@aol.com>
Return-path: <PhatBrat38@aol.com>
To: HITZlovr7@aol.com, MegBRAT485@aol.com, Ikeypooo17@aol.com, MiniCobra@aol.com,
	TLC2019@aol.com, Tchdwn04@aol.com, BaBE1214@aol.com, WarMatrix@aol.com,
	SKell044@aol.com, Schotzy4u@aol.com, Paid4byGOD@aol.com, Slygrl3@aol.com,
	Blonde594@aol.com, Xsporty27@aol.com, SMDAC@aol.com, Angel9607@aol.com,
	BerryJulia@aol.com, Rockets936@aol.com, Jch230@aol.com, JGHdude@aol.com,
	Blakpidgn@aol.com, MINNIE387@aol.com, POLOGIRL29@aol.com,
	BKAUSHER@aol.com, Chica5944@aol.com, Thriller59@aol.com,
	EKing13836@aol.com, Tessalyne@aol.com, LadyXDiedX@aol.com,
	Druid53935@aol.com, Ladidrago@aol.com, Kayy718@aol.com,
	Smiley2915@aol.com, LadySarah3@aol.com, AnthOnAcid@aol.com,
	ILuvLeo75@aol.com, VAMPSLAYOR@aol.com, TheCat1986@aol.com,
	Queen765@aol.com, TatiannaK@aol.com, Akira235@aol.com,
	SHHHH12345@aol.com, SNOWBDR19@aol.com, Jennie4946@aol.com,
	NikeAir504@aol.com, SMH17ft@aol.com, Tieka2@aol.com, Cartman823@aol.com,
	Escort33@aol.com, Cuban1@aol.com, Bobby3811@aol.com, Pizon011@aol.com,
	Beaver53@aol.com, HitzAngel@aol.com, Dobermanpz@aol.com, Brohein@aol.com,
	RonVor@aol.com, CheerTSA@aol.com, ADIDAS7034@aol.com, Jewel81336@aol.com,
	Rabbit20@aol.com, Hogwild321@aol.com, RFJY@aol.com, Explbg@aol.com,
	BeastShift@aol.com, Blondiann@aol.com, Tweetsang@aol.com,
	DREDEVIL@aol.com, SSparks99@aol.com, Kathdncr@aol.com,
	CATGIRL295@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 21:24:00 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Juliet8658 <Juliet8658@aol.com>
Return-path: <Juliet8658@aol.com>
To: Juliet21@aol.com, Juliet23@aol.com, Juliet69@aol.com, Smiley21@aol.com,
	Smiley23@aol.com, Smiley2442@aol.com, D00kieBoy@aol.com,
	OoFLyGirL@aol.com, Shmuboy@aol.com, Rj101284@aol.com, Jhlwd97@aol.com,
	Frenchy517@aol.com, LINKINGLOG@aol.com, MrGrim12@aol.com,
	Woof118@aol.com, IisLaura@aol.com, Bear622208@aol.com, Chels8885@aol.com,
	PoloGal450@aol.com, ShOrTyRoQx@aol.com, NIRVANA960@aol.com,
	MADCOW611@aol.com, Hippie843@aol.com, Wiccat7734@aol.com,
	PhatBrat38@aol.com, Sunniedaze@aol.com, FrogGuy84@aol.com,
	BADBOYEEC@aol.com, SMM420@aol.com, GBsetter@aol.com, Deadeye125@aol.com,
	Missnancy1@aol.com, LARS1029@aol.com, O2COOL1234@aol.com,
	BRAT9222@aol.com, Meenukat@aol.com, CyberMax4@aol.com, THELUMIX@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:59:46 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part2_884741213_boundary"

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This is total Bullshit extra money for chat rooms I this AOL should just go
FUCK itself

Katy


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From: Teddy91632 <Teddy91632@aol.com>
Return-path: <Teddy91632@aol.com>
To: NJGirl87@aol.com, NACKER78@aol.com, Geri2426@aol.com, Emma105966@aol.com,
	Blonde1444@aol.com, Firstg@aol.com, Antricans@aol.com, JBUBA3805@aol.com,
	BigPopa44@aol.com, SirSable@aol.com, Jinjer103@aol.com,
	Juliet8658@aol.com, Sweetypy@aol.com, Swimma13@aol.com,
	Nothinker@aol.com, AliLee24@aol.com, MissBrat11@aol.com,
	JustC1582@aol.com, Eeyore1187@aol.com, Hardiway9@aol.com,
	GGordong2@aol.com, KelDundee@aol.com, SammieR123@aol.com,
	Cassieroni@aol.com, Sheppy7219@aol.com, Deth4U2@aol.com,
	Ballerina7@aol.com, TazzFl@aol.com, CoolGi4672@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 18:52:56 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part3_884741213_boundary"

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From: Daffney16 <Daffney16@aol.com>
Return-path: <Daffney16@aol.com>
To: Antricans@aol.com, NACKER78@aol.com, BigPoppa44@aol.com, JBUBA3805@aol.com,
	Teddy91632@aol.com, GIRL1462@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:53:45 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part4_884741213_boundary"

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From: TUBB16 <TUBB16@aol.com>
Return-path: <TUBB16@aol.com>
To: Daffney16@aol.com, Cap5276@aol.com, Candy194@aol.com, HollyF69@aol.com,
	Godlov7638@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 14:55:35 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part5_884741213_boundary"

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From: Chiksr7026 <Chiksr7026@aol.com>
Return-path: <Chiksr7026@aol.com>
To: Qwijibow@aol.com, PurpleChld@aol.com, TUBB16@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 21:47:58 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part6_884741213_boundary"

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From: TINY CLUTS <TINYCLUTS@aol.com>
Return-path: <TINYCLUTS@aol.com>
To: sat_4@hotmail.com, CITO311@aol.com, GirlyGi783@aol.com, Kelfive@aol.com,
	SCATR5864@aol.com, HwnHuney@aol.com, GroovyME4u@aol.com,
	Monkey7338@aol.com, FreakSh0w8@aol.com, Lins83@aol.com,
	Lildaisy8@aol.com, Honey0187@aol.com, Pisha10@aol.com, Chiskabob@aol.com,
	O0sa0O@aol.com, SMILE4U725@aol.com, PimpnSA311@aol.com,
	SONOFABOMB@aol.com, AmazingAsh@aol.com, Eclipser11@aol.com,
	Muizz@aol.com, Fijians@aol.com, AtQoUoA@aol.com, Meow973122@aol.com,
	Dreamgr606@aol.com, ShaShaRee@aol.com, SMatsumoto@aol.com,
	SmartAngel@aol.com, SccrBg@aol.com, BaByGIrL6@aol.com, OKSk8er@aol.com,
	Stefff999@aol.com, SILKDOV@aol.com, SgrRay13@aol.com, Luvbomb99@aol.com,
	JVGirl31@aol.com, TearBox@aol.com, Chiksr7026@aol.com, CinBa85@aol.com,
	ViXen25180@aol.com, BLuEeYe191@aol.com, LocaleAM@aol.com,
	Sugar659xX@aol.com, RSSpam@aol.com
Subject: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 22:06:41 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part7_884741213_boundary"

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From: HwnHuney <HwnHuney@aol.com>
Return-path: <HwnHuney@aol.com>
To: TINYCLUTS@aol.com, DJM32@aol.com, Kittnpurr@aol.com, RipPopGo@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:57:23 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part8_884741213_boundary"

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From: PRMillette <PRMillette@aol.com>
Return-path: <PRMillette@aol.com>
To: Brennalex@aol.com, Terrymeena@aol.com, WelchCA@aol.com, Polka781@aol.com,
	Ugconn14@aol.com, AMIE32575@aol.com, MPRICE3222@aol.com,
	Yvonnerg@aol.com, MARIE202@aol.com, CropGrower@aol.com,
	CropRaiser@aol.com, JOKER729@aol.com, GYSYZY@aol.com, SUNSH91822@aol.com,
	Janec0925@aol.com, CMAY517@aol.com, CrazMH@aol.com, CINRIC989@aol.com,
	FoxyRoxyUT@aol.com, GOLD102498@aol.com, HwnHuney@aol.com, JUJOE@aol.com,
	Drjdjsand@aol.com, DG2824@aol.com, Copperrays@aol.com, A1piggeon@aol.com,
	RLeon02370@aol.com, VJWelch@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 16:01:30 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part9_884741213_boundary"

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From: ShortyDMM <ShortyDMM@aol.com>
Return-path: <ShortyDMM@aol.com>
To: PRMillette@aol.com, Mbmad1218@aol.com, Ugconn14@aol.com, WelchCA@aol.com,
	Mason217@aol.com, Kaylee2222@aol.com, JOPOK@aol.com, Nmwalw@aol.com,
	Rockdog01@aol.com, DrewCary01@aol.com, SKprincess@aol.com,
	JSKITTLE23@aol.com, GSCanuck@aol.com, TEEN914@aol.com, Tazz12F@aol.com,
	Sugar1389@aol.com, Shane2002@aol.com, Kip86@aol.com, XprincessO@aol.com,
	GriND311@aol.com, Keri407@aol.com, BRADNY206@aol.com, TTIGER30@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:49:28 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part10_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

   THANK YOU FOR HELPING US !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


                   :) 

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From: TmyGirl121 <TmyGirl121@aol.com>
Return-path: <TmyGirl121@aol.com>
To: JODlCoyote@aol.com, BellBoy12@aol.com, Adidas6322@aol.com, PrepRox@aol.com,
	ANGEL9633@aol.com, Bc9853@aol.com, Sexyboy604@aol.com, Tsc22222@aol.com,
	PhatCatty@aol.com, LuvingKell@aol.com, LILJESSE12@aol.com,
	BagOglass@aol.com, DDXOSiRuS3@aol.com, SouthSam98@aol.com,
	Jr1004@aol.com, JoeCool715@aol.com, TMAN55@aol.com, WIERDO2939@aol.com,
	HErule@aol.com, Oldskoo02@aol.com, BANANI1@aol.com, JLINSETH@aol.com,
	Truckin186@aol.com, Sealangel@aol.com, Princebob@aol.com,
	Joekool367@aol.com, Situhaddad@aol.com, ShortyDMM@aol.com,
	Fifilafif1@aol.com, AirNikeRDR@aol.com, CalJosh2@aol.com,
	TLinvi8472@aol.com, Coarsair2@aol.com, HaRdWO0D@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 22:54:58 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part11_884741213_boundary"

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In a message dated 98-01-02 15:00:29 EST, Polo54678 writes:

<< 
 Subj:	Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please >>


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From: Polo54678 <Polo54678@aol.com>
Return-path: <Polo54678@aol.com>
To: Adidas6322@aol.com, PrepRox@aol.com, Linda13463@aol.com, GEORGEU1@aol.com,
	Cookie587@aol.com, Cherry324@aol.com, LUCKY69647@aol.com,
	Baluska@aol.com, IBLGBMAN@aol.com, ZAPCARGO@aol.com, TmyGirl121@aol.com,
	FndrStrat1@aol.com, ShortGuyAM@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:00:29 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part12_884741213_boundary"

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From: LaurnScott <LaurnScott@aol.com>
Return-path: <LaurnScott@aol.com>
To: Bonnie566@aol.com, ICplays18@aol.com, Miestie@aol.com, Whiner1216@aol.com,
	ICE696969@aol.com, Pearls126@aol.com, Candyro227@aol.com,
	Twrman101@aol.com, Lusttodust@aol.com, JOHNNY3481@aol.com, GBCMO@aol.com,
	Jarek3@aol.com, JBE01@aol.com, KBrown8398@aol.com, Nip777@aol.com,
	SAndrus923@aol.com, Bangsy11@aol.com, Jezeyguy@aol.com,
	Qqqq665051@aol.com, CheerBrit1@aol.com, CTiGhT97@aol.com,
	PATSYWLD@aol.com, Cheer58936@aol.com, Coolk74974@aol.com,
	Himatenes@aol.com, Polo54678@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:29:32 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part13_884741213_boundary"

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From: SthPark420 <SthPark420@aol.com>
Return-path: <SthPark420@aol.com>
To: LaurnScott@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 23:10:59 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part14_884741213_boundary"

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From: Spree15TRU <Spree15TRU@aol.com>
Return-path: <Spree15TRU@aol.com>
To: KyleSP34@aol.com, Dream996@aol.com, Bobby69058@aol.com, LHavens495@aol.com,
	Srvtheball@aol.com, SuzanneFX@aol.com, SthPark420@aol.com,
	Climbn4fun@aol.com, Hanson0510@aol.com, Nautygyrl1@aol.com,
	Scorpio982@aol.com, JRB3219224@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 22:19:58 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part15_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: Shame175 <Shame175@aol.com>
Return-path: <Shame175@aol.com>
To: Spree15TRU@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 21:58:07 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part16_884741213_boundary"

--part16_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.33>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part16_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.34>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: NiRvAnA16 <NiRvAnA16@aol.com>
Return-path: <NiRvAnA16@aol.com>
To: PRoDiGyM1@aol.com, BJTactor@aol.com, Curly0055@aol.com, WUZUP9991@aol.com,
	Shame175@aol.com, Busharmy12@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 20:17:56 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part17_884741213_boundary"

--part17_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.35>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I WILL TAKE U TO COURT AOL!
I HAVE A LETTER FROM STEVE CASE AS EVIDENCE SAYING THAT THEIR WILL BE
UNLIMITED USE OF ALL AREAS! WATCH YOUR BACK AOL!

--part17_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.36>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Sekcergoat <Sekcergoat@aol.com>
Return-path: <Sekcergoat@aol.com>
To: NiRvAnA16@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 12:16:19 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part18_884741213_boundary"

--part18_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.37>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part18_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.38>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: VVolffe <VVolffe@aol.com>
Return-path: <VVolffe@aol.com>
To: STUFF33@aol.com, MadmTater@aol.com, Sheerio01@aol.com, Redd2120@aol.com,
	Gloomyjoy@aol.com, Sekcergoat@aol.com, MRhodes621@aol.com,
	TazRex@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 1997 08:26:19 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part19_884741213_boundary"

--part19_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.39>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part19_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.40>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: HDPerkey <HDPerkey@aol.com>
Return-path: <HDPerkey@aol.com>
To: Orchidd444@aol.com, Loyd2@aol.com, Jen0411@aol.com, Blackcrow@aol.com,
	Polymorphs@aol.com, Flndwndrnk@aol.com, VVolffe@aol.com
Cc: Bicepman13@aol.com, JWelch5139@aol.com, Waterfal29@aol.com, HDPerkey@aol.com,
	Spitzspot@juno.com, Cyberchic16@juno.com, Cyberman22@juno.com,
	VeronicaH3@aol.com, BrowniGrly@aol.com, Redd2120@aol.com,
	arodriguez1@juno.com, ClnSwpsCo@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 15:40:30 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part20_884741213_boundary"

--part20_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.41>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part20_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.42>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: ANr1313 <ANr1313@aol.com>
Return-path: <ANr1313@aol.com>
To: JCnest@aol.com
Cc: CHEEKARODY@aol.com, RMyers254@aol.com, Smile005@aol.com, Dayyzze@aol.com,
	LEEDAA@aol.com, ANGEL18267@aol.com, FrankWVU@aol.com, CutieT13@aol.com,
	SunFlwrs26@aol.com, FlyBy400@aol.com, Packers641@aol.com,
	FlaPrncess@aol.com, LitlHarp@aol.com, Jumpin2Win@aol.com,
	Mobley1000@aol.com, Sweet72935@aol.com, Ali7816@aol.com,
	Cute4u922@aol.com, Surfer2330@aol.com, BadBaer@aol.com,
	STaylor934@aol.com, Chic15@aol.com, Hello58264@aol.com, HDPerkey@aol.com,
	KPo7041346@aol.com, Sugar43876@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 23:52:03 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part21_884741213_boundary"

--part21_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.43>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part21_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.44>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: MandiL6399 <MandiL6399@aol.com>
Return-path: <MandiL6399@aol.com>
To: ANr1313@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 17:16:27 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part22_884741213_boundary"

--part22_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.45>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part22_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.46>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Trox13 <Trox13@aol.com>
Return-path: <Trox13@aol.com>
To: Romeo2U4U@aol.com, FATCATP@aol.com, MandiL6399@aol.com, KARO9210@aol.com,
	Zapmsz@aol.com, Johnca18@aol.com, FireGlo7@aol.com, Sonic10300@aol.com,
	MLTrox@aol.com, GeoTrox@aol.com, DGross930@aol.com, MrJoeBlo@aol.com,
	RUSSHUNTER@aol.com, Hasshunter@aol.com, Chips92@aol.com,
	Ace011385@aol.com, Try2Cme921@aol.com, GNMFLIP@aol.com,
	Snifflyfro@aol.com, Thunder105@aol.com, Dance11684@aol.com,
	KCW441@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 15:39:53 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part23_884741213_boundary"

--part23_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.47>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Please send to everyone!

--part23_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.48>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: DreamTeach <DreamTeach@aol.com>
Return-path: <DreamTeach@aol.com>
To: Trox13@aol.com, Rocko013@aol.com, CICDOC@aol.com, PLY2@aol.com,
	Jeffro022@aol.com, FtballRef@aol.com, Txfella69@aol.com,
	MCDplayer@aol.com, Klkbug@aol.com, SugarJenni@aol.com, Hoodym@aol.com,
	RAMS4ME@aol.com, BIGDOG4US@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 14:27:53 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part24_884741213_boundary"

--part24_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.49>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part24_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.50>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Sliderman0 <Sliderman0@aol.com>
Return-path: <Sliderman0@aol.com>
To: DreamTeach@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:09:34 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part25_884741213_boundary"

--part25_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.51>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part25_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.52>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Gelfin847 <Gelfin847@aol.com>
Return-path: <Gelfin847@aol.com>
To: Sliderman0@aol.com
Cc: Gelfin847@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 13:01:41 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part26_884741213_boundary"

--part26_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.53>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part26_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.54>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Punch224 <Punch224@aol.com>
Return-path: <Punch224@aol.com>
To: MASWIL@aol.com, Jadde98@aol.com, DoubleLB@aol.com, VeryUneek1@aol.com,
	Foxthing4u@aol.com, RMitch8030@aol.com, AhLeah4@aol.com,
	Gelfin847@aol.com, Lauren9446@aol.com, Knightwins@aol.com,
	Beauty7570@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:47:57 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part27_884741213_boundary"

--part27_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.55>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

please read and sign

--part27_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.56>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: ROBJON <ROBJON@aol.com>
Return-path: <ROBJON@aol.com>
To: ANGLEWALK@aol.com, Punch224@aol.com, Jway79@aol.com, Hooter6621@aol.com,
	Missyjo@aol.com, ShyBabyT@aol.com, NomadGrl@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 20:40:24 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part28_884741213_boundary"

--part28_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.57>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

please send on to people you know...

--part28_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.58>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: SkeetVaugh <SkeetVaugh@aol.com>
Return-path: <SkeetVaugh@aol.com>
To: Mattt4@aol.com, BOBOMORTON@aol.com, BJohn10435@aol.com, CassadaX4@aol.com,
	BranchLybg@aol.com, ROBJON@aol.com, DizzyDrip@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 23:30:29 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part29_884741213_boundary"

--part29_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.59>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

this is a bunch o' shit

--part29_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.60>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: HotWire96 <HotWire96@aol.com>
Return-path: <HotWire96@aol.com>
To: SkeetVaugh@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 21:38:45 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part30_884741213_boundary"

--part30_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.61>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part30_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.62>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: RocknSkate <RocknSkate@aol.com>
Return-path: <RocknSkate@aol.com>
To: HotWire96@aol.com, Dance2BeMe@aol.com, JasonWheel@aol.com, SLZ8@aol.com,
	MAMAKIN13@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 17:38:36 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part31_884741213_boundary"

--part31_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.63>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

This is stupid!!!

--part31_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.64>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: MAMAKIN13 <MAMAKIN13@aol.com>
Return-path: <MAMAKIN13@aol.com>
To: AliJane007@aol.com, Brasartin@aol.com, Rbyfntsy@aol.com, LdyErato@aol.com,
	Buglet789@aol.com, Cutie8844@aol.com, WeloveADAM@aol.com,
	Nastafied@aol.com, Celeste913@aol.com, RocknSkate@aol.com,
	MacLeod214@aol.com, Talula500@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:16:12 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part32_884741213_boundary"

--part32_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.65>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

POWER  TO THE PEOPLE!!!!
PLEASE FORWARD TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW.
FROM MAMAKIN13

--part32_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.66>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: PoetJenny <PoetJenny@aol.com>
Return-path: <PoetJenny@aol.com>
To: MAMAKIN13@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:37:26 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part33_884741213_boundary"

--part33_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.67>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part33_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.68>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: ALF9871 <ALF9871@aol.com>
Return-path: <ALF9871@aol.com>
To: PoetJenny@aol.com
Cc: OriaSD@aol.com, JulesJWM@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:05:41 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part34_884741213_boundary"

--part34_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.69>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Sorry if youre getting this again...I just felt like sending it to people

--part34_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: EmprRcrdNH <EmprRcrdNH@aol.com>
Return-path: <EmprRcrdNH@aol.com>
To: Magelit@aol.com, OriaSD@aol.com, JBUGSYM@aol.com, missworld610@hotmail.com,
	Ocalaka@aol.com, SandyLou82@aol.com, ALLYCAT205@aol.com, ALF9871@aol.com,
	Karana321@aol.com, KWBierman@aol.com, JulesJWM@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:40:11 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part35_884741213_boundary"

--part35_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.71>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part35_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.72>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: ALLYCAT205 <ALLYCAT205@aol.com>
Return-path: <ALLYCAT205@aol.com>
To: Bullgirl16@aol.com
Cc: KWBierman@aol.com, MIRACL6782@aol.com, Hirschy17@aol.com, EmprRcrdNH@aol.com,
	Flower0019@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:37:54 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part36_884741213_boundary"

--part36_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.73>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


In a message dated 12/9/97 7:21:34 PM, PoetJenny wrote:

<<forward this >>


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From: PoetJenny <PoetJenny@aol.com>
Return-path: <PoetJenny@aol.com>
To: ALLYCAT205@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:21:34 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part37_884741213_boundary"

--part37_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.75>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part37_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.76>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Drummer484 <Drummer484@aol.com>
Return-path: <Drummer484@aol.com>
To: PoetJenny@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:22:54 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part38_884741213_boundary"

--part38_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.77>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part38_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.78>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Lolo MH <LoloMH@aol.com>
Return-path: <LoloMH@aol.com>
To: Blankman71@aol.com
Cc: WhteRse512@aol.com, Kayla93105@aol.com, Valox@aol.com, Carmen9782@aol.com,
	Soccer2628@aol.com, Night331@aol.com, Drummer484@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:54:21 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part39_884741213_boundary"

--part39_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.79>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part39_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.80>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: SSteff14 <SSteff14@aol.com>
Return-path: <SSteff14@aol.com>
To: LoloMH@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:18:36 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part40_884741213_boundary"

--part40_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.81>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part40_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.82>
Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: Dill895 <Dill895@aol.com>
Return-path: <Dill895@aol.com>
To: SSteff14@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:02:01 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part41_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: CUTSIE2502 <CUTSIE2502@aol.com>
Return-path: <CUTSIE2502@aol.com>
To: Dill895@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 08:07:09 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part42_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: Anthonyl16 <Anthonyl16@aol.com>
Return-path: <Anthonyl16@aol.com>
To: kjnelson@juno.com, BLAIRE888@aol.com, Brandy4533@aol.com, TrueBlue@aol.com,
	Mkahane@aol.com, GUNTER03@aol.com, Sorceresce@aol.com,
	DeJaVu2121@aol.com, CUTSIE2502@aol.com, John246143@aol.com,
	HydroMint@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 03:49:14 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part43_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: BLAIRE888 <BLAIRE888@aol.com>
Return-path: <BLAIRE888@aol.com>
To: ParaClara@aol.com, Muffin3637@aol.com, DottyK12@aol.com, Yodafish13@aol.com,
	PascalWal@aol.com, Leviatan15@aol.com, KKJOE@aol.com, TKLmyELMO4@aol.com,
	Chrisb6969@aol.com, Lorenzo903@aol.com, Mary145@aol.com,
	OLdNaV1071@aol.com, Leslie1133@aol.com, KTJHS2000@aol.com,
	Cheeze16@aol.com, Jessie1134@aol.com, Bether8007@aol.com,
	AboSchmabo@aol.com, Amazin67@aol.com, AlbanyGuy1@aol.com,
	Imedorrae@aol.com, Lang116@aol.com, ChemBro14@aol.com,
	Anthonyl16@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:52:01 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part44_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: CrazzyBaoy <CrazzyBaoy@aol.com>
Return-path: <CrazzyBaoy@aol.com>
To: BaBy158@aol.com, BLAIRE888@aol.com, NetGod2@aol.com, Mary145@aol.com,
	ERRIN1@aol.com, Jmesue1@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 06:32:53 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part45_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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From: ILV2DIVWU <ILV2DIVWU@aol.com>
Return-path: <ILV2DIVWU@aol.com>
To: CrazzyBaoy@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 02:45:38 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part46_884741213_boundary"

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Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.93>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

This is important to read and forward to all you know!
Kathy

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From: TWENTYX3 <TWENTYX3@aol.com>
Return-path: <TWENTYX3@aol.com>
To: CarGrly@aol.com, DASKANT@aol.com, TMorr49180@aol.com, Knghtt@aol.com,
	CHILLYR@aol.com, Murr20@aol.com, HOWZ2@aol.com, ILV2DIVWU@aol.com,
	GEORGEBOWL@aol.com, TJones6978@aol.com, Smiles844@aol.com,
	HARDDR51@aol.com, Murky65@aol.com, Cherrishxx@aol.com, DensCour@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:01:32 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part47_884741213_boundary"

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Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.95>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: Donkie8 <Donkie8@aol.com>
Return-path: <Donkie8@aol.com>
To: Hushy@aol.com, Sosumi13@aol.com, C3PO15@aol.com, HoneeBeeMe@aol.com,
	Reeaally@aol.com, EggGirl0@aol.com, Cocotte02@aol.com,
	Bratt10313@aol.com, Rak404@aol.com, BBirnstiel@aol.com,
	Noodles333@aol.com, TLCfrskyrh@aol.com, Froggiiee@aol.com,
	ALRRAVEN@aol.com, MiAltrEgo@aol.com, LisaCappy@aol.com,
	Nrsforyou@aol.com, dmb420@hotmail.com, JCastro617@aol.com,
	TWENTYX3@aol.com, Megane24@aol.com, CarGrly@aol.com, LSure88@aol.com,
	Shari699@aol.com, Mdina1@aol.com, One4JsGirl@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:27:01 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part48_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I have sent this too you all but here it is again. Sorry.

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From: Mdina1 <Mdina1@aol.com>
Return-path: <Mdina1@aol.com>
To: Donkie8@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:24:56 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part49_884741213_boundary"

--part49_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.99>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: Hockeyted <Hockeyted@aol.com>
Return-path: <Hockeyted@aol.com>
To: GirlyCh613@aol.com, Sunshn1156@aol.com, JSzabo1996@aol.com, Bittie81@aol.com,
	ECLftFlank@aol.com, MedHeadGrl@aol.com, Mdina1@aol.com, Copley14@aol.com,
	Five4nmore@aol.com, Shorte2323@aol.com, KAYSLHE92@aol.com,
	GIrLeY17@aol.com, Shnerks@aol.com, Akr1234905@aol.com, Higgsg@aol.com,
	CattandRat@aol.com, Lster6969@aol.com, TazJRK@aol.com, Raptorr7@aol.com,
	Icegrl1984@aol.com, Poetgr@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:18:48 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part50_884741213_boundary"

--part50_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.101>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: KKPFulton <KKPFulton@aol.com>
Return-path: <KKPFulton@aol.com>
To: Shelley382@aol.com, Kelly8019@aol.com, Ka026@aol.com, CountryQt5@aol.com,
	Lins303@aol.com, SPieroski@aol.com, MITZGAL@aol.com, Missy17319@aol.com,
	Panda7527@aol.com, Hockeyted@aol.com, GRUNBY@aol.com, Jas2826119@aol.com,
	Jjkkttss@aol.com, KKGHfan@aol.com, NDellner@aol.com, Alfalfa623@aol.com,
	KrsteR@aol.com, EvilyMe@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 21:32:28 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part51_884741213_boundary"

--part51_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.103>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: TCowboys <TCowboys@aol.com>
Return-path: <TCowboys@aol.com>
To: PBrads7191@aol.com, Blkbl@aol.com, STebbe0000@aol.com, KKGHfan@aol.com,
	SunStarr85@aol.com, CINNABUNS1@aol.com, KKPFulton@aol.com,
	SAVAGEXX@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:24:51 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part52_884741213_boundary"

--part52_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.105>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: KHC12386 <KHC12386@aol.com>
Return-path: <KHC12386@aol.com>
To: WeRradikal@aol.com, TCowboys@aol.com, Kellyturtl@aol.com, MUFutbol@aol.com,
	LAXMGM13@aol.com, EvelDevel@aol.com, JPasciak@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 18:22:42 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part53_884741213_boundary"

--part53_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part53_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: Kreep10 <Kreep10@aol.com>
Return-path: <Kreep10@aol.com>
To: Lizrad22@aol.com, KHC12386@aol.com, Jeffrad22@aol.com, GPIRISH99@aol.com,
	Dirtcat17@aol.com, Meshack10@aol.com, Joyful411@aol.com,
	KickIt5678@aol.com, Wilburrpig@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:00:11 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part54_884741213_boundary"

--part54_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.109>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part54_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Crazforu <Crazforu@aol.com>
Return-path: <Crazforu@aol.com>
To: Blitzboy84@aol.com, Craz4you2@aol.com, Sircow@aol.com, MinkMag@aol.com,
	Hoho1116@aol.com, PSalameh@aol.com, BDolphin44@aol.com, Kreep10@aol.com,
	CMeNow22@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:29:53 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part55_884741213_boundary"

--part55_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.111>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Haleh16 <Haleh16@aol.com>
Return-path: <Haleh16@aol.com>
To: Crazforu@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:34:44 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part56_884741213_boundary"

--part56_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: Part86 <Part86@aol.com>
Return-path: <Part86@aol.com>
To: Haleh16@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:45:40 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part57_884741213_boundary"

--part57_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.115>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part57_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: Shanners99 <Shanners99@aol.com>
Return-path: <Shanners99@aol.com>
To: Part86@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 14:19:32 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part58_884741213_boundary"

--part58_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.117>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: Concon617 <Concon617@aol.com>
Return-path: <Concon617@aol.com>
To: YeLoSnOmAn@aol.com
Cc: Busta19@aol.com, PrinceJayy@aol.com, BROM25@aol.com, Blitzboy84@aol.com,
	Shanners99@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 18:01:57 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part59_884741213_boundary"

--part59_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.119>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: APo622 <APo622@aol.com>
Return-path: <APo622@aol.com>
To: Concon617@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:15:15 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part60_884741213_boundary"

--part60_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
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From: AGooF2U <AGooF2U@aol.com>
Return-path: <AGooF2U@aol.com>
To: NOZEU@aol.com, CATSHELHAR@aol.com, Elven19@aol.com, Angela2677@aol.com,
	ApopkaMel@aol.com, Girlslovr@aol.com, Eaglei16@aol.com, Abes33@aol.com,
	Tatula106@aol.com, Lottoman@aol.com, APo622@aol.com, Andy2521@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:13:17 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part61_884741213_boundary"

--part61_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.123>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: SPOOFED948 <SPOOFED948@aol.com>
Return-path: <SPOOFED948@aol.com>
To: Soma1971@aol.com, Banana52@aol.com, Tigger27a@aol.com, Lud0050@aol.com,
	MFamigh829@aol.com, NYCHICK014@aol.com, JBean31482@aol.com,
	RachelRSK@aol.com, AScott1000@aol.com, Gumby003@aol.com,
	OASISIS1@aol.com, SAU17FF@aol.com, Ag869@aol.com, Pbear13135@aol.com,
	Coopie1281@aol.com, Fruity17@aol.com, Smokie82@aol.com, TMcub@aol.com,
	T0TALFLIRT@aol.com, AGooF2U@aol.com, SOPHCCHS97@aol.com,
	Madcows666@aol.com, FlashFan1@aol.com, Dimonz@aol.com, KBLONDIE2@aol.com,
	Smoooth411@aol.com, Sp0oF16@aol.com, BigPickel1@aol.com, BriRej@aol.com,
	Flight18@aol.com, TBROWNIE2@aol.com, TheNeri9@aol.com, IRONLUNGJ@aol.com,
	Kev31607@aol.com, UNDERT0W@aol.com, STORRRMY@aol.com, NikeGirl04@aol.com,
	Scifiluvr@aol.com, Bubba44708@aol.com, KimmyK14@aol.com,
	HONEY91291@aol.com, MBLJP@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:09:04 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part62_884741213_boundary"

--part62_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.125>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Sp0oF16 <Sp0oF16@aol.com>
Return-path: <Sp0oF16@aol.com>
To: EMD147@aol.com
Cc: LAZrdgTAZ@aol.com, Madcows666@aol.com, DAISY65324@aol.com,
	AIMEE27369@aol.com, BigPickel1@aol.com, Flight18@aol.com,
	Gotaluv69@aol.com, TheBEAST55@aol.com, RodeRigo22@aol.com,
	KrazyGrl16@aol.com, SPOOFED948@aol.com, Coopie1281@aol.com,
	Ithaca79@aol.com, Isaby@aol.com, DEWYSQUARE@aol.com, Jewels117@aol.com,
	Jayme785@aol.com, Romance321@aol.com, LuvYa710@aol.com,
	Bubble7119@aol.com, XnCnHomerJ@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:06:07 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part63_884741213_boundary"

--part63_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.127>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part63_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.128>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Sk8ter3748 <Sk8ter3748@aol.com>
Return-path: <Sk8ter3748@aol.com>
To: MorbidRain@aol.com, Aptom9@aol.com, ElaStiKguY@aol.com, Kain305@aol.com,
	QueenTool@aol.com, OPiVyGrL44@aol.com, TooLPoeT@aol.com,
	Starla447@aol.com, Sp0oF16@aol.com, ROOKIE3@aol.com, LMKAP@aol.com,
	ZzSk8zZ@aol.com, TOkeRGirL@aol.com, Brohymn420@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:55:47 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part64_884741213_boundary"

--part64_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.129>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

DONT LET THEM

--part64_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.130>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: OPiVyGrL44 <OPiVyGrL44@aol.com>
Return-path: <OPiVyGrL44@aol.com>
To: Sk8ter3748@aol.com, Opivy234@aol.com, Oioioitsr@aol.com, PeACePnK32@aol.com,
	LiLPunK32@aol.com, ZoOYOrK09@aol.com, MxPx85@aol.com, Punkguy205@aol.com,
	LagWag83@aol.com, StrungOutA@aol.com, RascelKing@aol.com,
	DaDeftones@aol.com, Deadsk8r@aol.com, XUxFxOX@aol.com, Ska2punk@aol.com,
	PUNK666271@aol.com, SXe15@aol.com, PUNKROKNIK@aol.com,
	ZeroCoolst@aol.com, WARISDUM@aol.com, D1sNcHAntD@aol.com,
	InKOREct@aol.com, Sniper4fun@aol.com, Furry66@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:29:32 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part65_884741213_boundary"

--part65_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.131>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part65_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.132>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: X24x7PUNX <X24x7PUNX@aol.com>
Return-path: <X24x7PUNX@aol.com>
To: OPiVyGrL44@aol.com, BRAT287522@aol.com, HaZy69@aol.com, Saradoangl@aol.com,
	MBCrusty@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:05:24 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part66_884741213_boundary"

--part66_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.133>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part66_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.134>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Aw1999 <Aw1999@aol.com>
Return-path: <Aw1999@aol.com>
To: Slash545@aol.com, X24x7PUNX@aol.com, Squirel911@aol.com, Straw039@aol.com,
	HannahYC@aol.com, BRAT287522@aol.com, Junior677@aol.com, VINCE90@aol.com,
	Sjmrg@aol.com, PANRCN@aol.com, Goodney@aol.com, CHIC500@aol.com,
	LaydBack16@aol.com, AJulyAngel@aol.com, Nik00girl@aol.com,
	Campdogg@aol.com, Surfer2383@aol.com, Cdogthe1@aol.com, Iswek22@aol.com,
	HJNicol@aol.com, AjS222@aol.com, MKaynor@aol.com, Mahongy@aol.com,
	Weebug@aol.com, Macg84@aol.com, DBazen@aol.com, Tigerfan9@aol.com,
	JW275@aol.com, TxRebel7@aol.com, WeezelAl@aol.com, FlaReefs@aol.com,
	Junk527868@aol.com, REDHOT1020@aol.com, PRCAheeler@aol.com,
	GoodspeedB@aol.com, HOT21NYPR@aol.com, MBASHEER@aol.com, PILLTD@aol.com,
	IronMan400@aol.com, MaNpLaYa@aol.com, ABailey911@aol.com,
	Nohome62@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:49:28 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part67_884741213_boundary"

--part67_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.135>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part67_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.136>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: MFSLDG428 <MFSLDG428@aol.com>
Return-path: <MFSLDG428@aol.com>
To: MARILYN812@aol.com, TSHEL98@aol.com, Aw1999@aol.com, Powder1515@aol.com,
	Violette47@aol.com, KBM1016@aol.com, Moses138@aol.com,
	JKetter512@aol.com, MAHUN16@aol.com, Trendklr@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:47:50 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part68_884741213_boundary"

--part68_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.137>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part68_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.138>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Arcane1128 <Arcane1128@aol.com>
Return-path: <Arcane1128@aol.com>
To: Krn311atr@aol.com, MFSLDG428@aol.com, BRNTPNUT@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:34:16 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part69_884741213_boundary"

--part69_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.139>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part69_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.140>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: MClasen <MClasen@aol.com>
Return-path: <MClasen@aol.com>
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 14:59:37 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part70_884741213_boundary"

--part70_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.141>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part70_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.142>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Crusty9999 <Crusty9999@aol.com>
Return-path: <Crusty9999@aol.com>
To: LMLHSBAND@aol.com, LOVE560@aol.com, GODLOVEIT@aol.com, MClasen@aol.com,
	StarRunner@aol.com, Cam317@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 21:48:17 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part71_884741213_boundary"

--part71_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.143>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part71_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.144>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: CubanLouie <CubanLouie@aol.com>
Return-path: <CubanLouie@aol.com>
To: JCRANIUM@aol.com
Cc: Pooh994@aol.com, Ale2cool4u@aol.com, HAGAS670@aol.com, QSOCCER@aol.com,
	Petree@aol.com, Pepsi002@aol.com, Crusty9999@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:47:55 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part72_884741213_boundary"

--part72_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.145>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part72_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.146>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Zeus59899 <Zeus59899@aol.com>
Return-path: <Zeus59899@aol.com>
To: Simmons820@aol.com, LrdTeron@aol.com, XENONXII@aol.com, TheJimGuy@aol.com,
	CubanLouie@aol.com, FlaBritt5@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:34:08 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part73_884741213_boundary"

--part73_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.147>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

AOL is going to charge us for using chatrooms. please forward this
message.!!!!!!!!

--part73_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.148>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: TwizlerBoy <TwizlerBoy@aol.com>
Return-path: <TwizlerBoy@aol.com>
To: JeanGry592@aol.com, Casta592@aol.com, Zeus59899@aol.com, SindarinV@aol.com,
	Star10100@aol.com, Zauna@aol.com, LadyeNiamh@aol.com, LilyBob215@aol.com,
	LiLyBoP215@aol.com, KICKER262@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:44:35 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part74_884741213_boundary"

--part74_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.149>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part74_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.150>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: StudChick <StudChick@aol.com>
Return-path: <StudChick@aol.com>
To: N2ADAMS@aol.com, Bookcase2@aol.com, KillerBeen@aol.com, PEESEBLOSM@aol.com,
	MMFREEK666@aol.com, Buurrnnout@aol.com, Metall69@aol.com,
	SONICSGRL@aol.com, Timmyd346@aol.com, IKAT85@aol.com, LiLBtXtaSy@aol.com,
	Lester7063@aol.com, Raven13519@aol.com, DJS1999@aol.com,
	lynchmjk@juno.com, TwizlerBoy@aol.com, GodsGirl8@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:09:31 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part75_884741213_boundary"

--part75_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.151>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part75_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.152>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Raven87665 <Raven87665@aol.com>
Return-path: <Raven87665@aol.com>
To: Buurrnnout@aol.com, Raven13519@aol.com, Dangermama@aol.com,
	WILLIEBOY6@aol.com, Maycie9@aol.com, FrkBoy22@aol.com, ZIL13@aol.com,
	SkyLyNx212@aol.com, ARESTINcop@aol.com, BlindMetal@aol.com,
	Zombie6969@aol.com, Storm76383@aol.com, LiquidX16@aol.com,
	Presysion@aol.com, Piglet369@aol.com, StudChick@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:48:34 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part76_884741213_boundary"

--part76_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.153>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

THIS IS ABOUT STUPID TO MAKE US PAY FOR CHAT ROOMS WHEN WE HAVE UNLIMITED USE.
WHATS THE POINT IF WE HAVE IT...ITS MADE TO LET US GO WHERE EVER WHEN EVER FOR
HOW EVER LONG....  ~raven =)

--part76_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.154>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Piglet369 <Piglet369@aol.com>
Return-path: <Piglet369@aol.com>
To: Hpls7@aol.com, TomP144@aol.com, HPayne13@aol.com, Raven87665@aol.com,
	Buddy756@aol.com, Pollywog82@aol.com, DeeDee8200@aol.com,
	XMookie@aol.com, JoJo4u112@aol.com, Michell573@aol.com, PAL910@aol.com,
	BeachVb101@aol.com, Ducatibuff@aol.com, LeBlue85@aol.com,
	SPHINXIM@aol.com, Eagle8080@aol.com, ACIDBEAR21@aol.com,
	Rainpnk311@aol.com, JaCla0738@aol.com, JOE75@aol.com, Dragon0009@aol.com,
	Tabbi17@aol.com, SSPB81@aol.com, Minty2000@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:52:43 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part77_884741213_boundary"

--part77_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.155>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part77_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.156>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Pollywog82 <Pollywog82@aol.com>
Return-path: <Pollywog82@aol.com>
To: Neworld97@aol.com, SenorFuzz@aol.com, DeeDee8200@aol.com, Minty2000@aol.com,
	A3frog@aol.com, AlFaustino@aol.com, Gidgit4911@aol.com, PazieG@aol.com,
	Morgion13@aol.com, KLeon52481@aol.com, herb15@hotmail.com,
	Serena1000@aol.com, Oire1@aol.com, RonGenta@aol.com, Lilakat@aol.com,
	SkyBlue66@aol.com, Piglet369@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:36:58 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part78_884741213_boundary"

--part78_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.157>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part78_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.158>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: A3frog <A3frog@aol.com>
Return-path: <A3frog@aol.com>
To: Zander15@aol.com, Pollywog82@aol.com, RNNIN@aol.com, Eagle8080@aol.com,
	Hardon19@aol.com, RSB1027@aol.com, Blakshaman@aol.com,
	Lookin4svs@aol.com, GSOADPi@aol.com, THE4ACES@aol.com,
	Gidgit4911@aol.com, Crashoride@aol.com, Minty2000@aol.com, SCH98@aol.com,
	N2earth@aol.com, Rocks137@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:40:38 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part79_884741213_boundary"

--part79_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.159>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part79_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.160>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: RuBsSunStr <RuBsSunStr@aol.com>
Return-path: <RuBsSunStr@aol.com>
To: Wednesd420@aol.com, A3frog@aol.com, SilCahen00@aol.com, MelisGirl@aol.com,
	PrncssNyx@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:49:29 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part80_884741213_boundary"

--part80_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.161>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 SEND THIS OUT TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. THIS NEW PLAN IS BULLSHIT

--part80_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.162>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Dudesi2 <Dudesi2@aol.com>
Return-path: <Dudesi2@aol.com>
To: RuBsSunStr@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:31:15 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part81_884741213_boundary"

--part81_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.163>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part81_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.164>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Dudesi2 <Dudesi2@aol.com>
Return-path: <Dudesi2@aol.com>
To: COBAL1@aol.com, TheMaXX4U@aol.com, XAcidBeArX@aol.com, Figglb@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:02:55 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part82_884741213_boundary"

--part82_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.165>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

please sign....

--part82_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.166>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: MAXIN520 <MAXIN520@aol.com>
Return-path: <MAXIN520@aol.com>
To: Blondi541@aol.com, Blondi542@aol.com, DCluv14@aol.com, KHOOP121@aol.com,
	BallaJr@aol.com, DonVito23@aol.com, Genuine79@aol.com, Dudesi2@aol.com,
	Blckacura@aol.com, BlackLyric@aol.com, PMIGONE@aol.com,
	DJLICKSOME@aol.com, EyeSelf79@aol.com, FOXY520@aol.com,
	Perinola80@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 19:00:42 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part83_884741213_boundary"

--part83_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.167>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part83_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.168>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Blckacura <Blckacura@aol.com>
Return-path: <Blckacura@aol.com>
To: MAXIN520@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:28:19 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part84_884741213_boundary"

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From: DA FIRE 1 <DAFIRE1@aol.com>
Return-path: <DAFIRE1@aol.com>
To: Blckacura@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 13:17:12 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part85_884741213_boundary"

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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

da fire 1

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From: RUFBUF <RUFBUF@aol.com>
Return-path: <RUFBUF@aol.com>
To: UCMe27@aol.com, Missta1678@aol.com, VERN1CP@aol.com, DAFIRE1@aol.com,
	SmileyCaCa@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 10:16:13 EST
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part86_884741213_boundary"

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PLEASE FORWARD..........

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From: LUSHIS 96 <LUSHIS96@aol.com>
Return-path: <LUSHIS96@aol.com>
To: RUFBUF@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 23:58:49 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part87_884741213_boundary"

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Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.175>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

please forward

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From: NTEBRD370 <NTEBRD370@aol.com>
Return-path: <NTEBRD370@aol.com>
To: LUSHIS96@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 22:43:27 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part88_884741213_boundary"

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Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.177>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

PLEASE FORWARD THIS
SINCE U WANNA BE A SHADY ASS NIGGA

KHE-KE

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From: Plasma sky <Plasmasky@aol.com>
Return-path: <Plasmasky@aol.com>
To: Pooh183@aol.com, Summoner55@aol.com, IZZYNUTS@aol.com, NaomiRay@aol.com,
	Pinkpet1@aol.com, ThrashOnU@aol.com, Chana4722@aol.com,
	MagicMoon3@aol.com, Woody1482@aol.com, Brad981287@aol.com,
	Zdog123456@aol.com, Josh5971@aol.com, PhonoVoice@aol.com,
	SuziQ521@aol.com, FArias5487@aol.com, NTEBRD370@aol.com,
	PrncssMac@aol.com, Aintnofoo@aol.com, ShraPOP614@aol.com, LizoG1@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 20:41:21 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part89_884741213_boundary"

--part89_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.179>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part89_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.180>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: RdWingWin <RdWingWin@aol.com>
Return-path: <RdWingWin@aol.com>
To: Twizzy29@aol.com, ScoobieH@aol.com, Venilla5@aol.com, NASWMR01@aol.com,
	StarryF@aol.com, Karree2121@aol.com, Plasmasky@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:57:11 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part90_884741213_boundary"

--part90_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.181>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part90_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.182>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: KFeel <KFeel@aol.com>
Return-path: <KFeel@aol.com>
To: Bunny1820@aol.com, GORGAR23@aol.com, RedSnail03@aol.com, LIPE28@aol.com,
	Andy7890@aol.com, KNajmi@aol.com, PUFFHANSEN@aol.com, DA3CEES@aol.com,
	SubZero298@aol.com, RdWingWin@aol.com, CRUSADERBS@aol.com,
	POCCOBOY@aol.com, Stripes864@aol.com, WFC13@aol.com, Spider4388@aol.com,
	DEVILBO103@aol.com, JWalter208@aol.com, BSeymour12@aol.com,
	TMSP11@aol.com, Mistro2247@aol.com, Jay696@aol.com, REMan911@aol.com,
	Eman69792@aol.com, BAYLINER7@aol.com, CHERYINOBY@aol.com,
	MattyZ113@aol.com, ErnieOG@aol.com, MHolmes310@aol.com,
	SiLeNcEr06@aol.com, ShrkTooth7@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 21:01:42 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part91_884741213_boundary"

--part91_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.183>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part91_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Sheet <Sheet@aol.com>
Return-path: <Sheet@aol.com>
To: KFeel@aol.com, RAD369@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:25:47 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part92_884741213_boundary"

--part92_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.185>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part92_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: AKZOMAN <AKZOMAN@aol.com>
Return-path: <AKZOMAN@aol.com>
To: Sheet@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 21:22:28 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part93_884741213_boundary"

--part93_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.187>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part93_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: Enaihr <Enaihr@aol.com>
Return-path: <Enaihr@aol.com>
To: AKZOMAN@aol.com, Adam110359@aol.com, LaxWorld04@aol.com, Ubthere067@aol.com,
	CR1177@aol.com, MangaMan34@aol.com, Dabandit1@aol.com,
	Sean244459@aol.com, HVYMetal15@aol.com, Sen3Ben@aol.com,
	Guitar4871@aol.com, Elwood1490@aol.com, MDBP2b@aol.com,
	VampireD15@aol.com, Nedtyne@aol.com, EastmanCru@aol.com, EB9790@aol.com,
	kevinbrock@ecu.campus.mci.net, Hokapontas@aol.com, leah@hotmail.com,
	cimerone07@hotmail.com, Lanaewen@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 19:56:59 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part94_884741213_boundary"

--part94_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.189>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part94_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.190>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: JOHNNY3372 <JOHNNY3372@aol.com>
Return-path: <JOHNNY3372@aol.com>
To: AHJen@aol.com, LKVSF4@aol.com, SBMDASH1@aol.com, TireDoc941@aol.com,
	BlueJays93@aol.com, Sandman185@aol.com, PerkyPete@aol.com,
	Netty07@aol.com, CUTIE9@aol.com, Macdad590@aol.com, Uphill3483@aol.com,
	KRECKS@aol.com, Sportz1626@aol.com, NESTY4@aol.com, YSIS45678@aol.com,
	SKAT0008@aol.com, SWOOSH9088@aol.com, Celcap@aol.com, Lienhome@aol.com,
	TrendySka@aol.com, TiffSpunk@aol.com, RetlaX@aol.com, KCFACEE@aol.com,
	KARENJARVI@aol.com, M1LSTRUTT@aol.com, GaelG@aol.com, Dopey1538@aol.com,
	BaddBoy56@aol.com, Enaihr@aol.com, Generalmm@aol.com, Nutty360@aol.com,
	MRPLAYAM@aol.com, Hk45gun@aol.com, Bsbridget@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 17:57:48 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part95_884741213_boundary"

--part95_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.191>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part95_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.192>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: PerkyPete <PerkyPete@aol.com>
Return-path: <PerkyPete@aol.com>
To: LUVJETER@aol.com, Travolina1@aol.com, Buster726@aol.com, ABK5678@aol.com,
	Kbradfordp@aol.com, LuvDance10@aol.com, DanceDiva2@aol.com,
	DABOMB98@aol.com, DANCEJAMS@aol.com, BobMiller@aol.com,
	Ccsoccer22@aol.com, Uphill3483@aol.com, STIMPY340@aol.com,
	Raspberie5@aol.com, CUTIE9@aol.com, JOHNNY3372@aol.com, Netty07@aol.com,
	MOMDADGIRL@aol.com, IRONic5041@aol.com, Macdad590@aol.com,
	Sandman185@aol.com, KRECKS@aol.com, JAXX21@aol.com, Popples42@aol.com,
	Sugar01728@aol.com, Bubble7964@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 1997 15:47:07 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part96_884741213_boundary"

--part96_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.193>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part96_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Bubble7964 <Bubble7964@aol.com>
Return-path: <Bubble7964@aol.com>
To: PerkyPete@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 23:23:05 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part97_884741213_boundary"

--part97_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.195>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part97_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Popples42 <Popples42@aol.com>
Return-path: <Popples42@aol.com>
To: Bubble7964@aol.com, JVR111@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:05:44 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part98_884741213_boundary"

--part98_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.197>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
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From: Polo grl 7 <Pologrl7@aol.com>
Return-path: <Pologrl7@aol.com>
To: Popples42@aol.com, Cutigrl806@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:03:16 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part99_884741213_boundary"

--part99_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.199>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: IciclesJK <IciclesJK@aol.com>
Return-path: <IciclesJK@aol.com>
To: MadMan8193@aol.com, UCYIBFLYN@aol.com, TARRAP@aol.com, Pooh2nu2@aol.com,
	Hoyt48@aol.com, Grandmaan@aol.com, Duval123@aol.com, ToMmYGrLLB@aol.com,
	CHEWY88690@aol.com, JiLiEbEeN@aol.com, Phonegirll@aol.com,
	STARGIR261@aol.com, Shweeny69@aol.com, Brunette79@aol.com,
	LilKim8@aol.com, Shwitz14@aol.com, CABAL24@aol.com, LMC4@aol.com,
	Levster@aol.com, FPLooney@aol.com, Jodial@aol.com, El1159@aol.com,
	MISHLAND@aol.com, Foxxxy81@aol.com, Pologrl7@aol.com, BuSTajOaH@aol.com,
	MeThOdNyC@aol.com, HELRACBABE@aol.com, HSOJ5@aol.com, Pickle6950@aol.com,
	DOUBLE97@aol.com, JeSSSBRD@aol.com, SuzieG15@aol.com, LEXUS282@aol.com,
	A66xAMiGO@aol.com, MK482@aol.com, WuSnaRT@aol.com, WuDuNG@aol.com,
	Shice69@aol.com, JMR0323@aol.com, KBD1@aol.com, Beautijill@aol.com,
	BaByLUV419@aol.com, JezMan4282@aol.com, Xjj@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:09:37 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part100_884741213_boundary"

--part100_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.201>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part100_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.202>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: SuzieG15 <SuzieG15@aol.com>
Return-path: <SuzieG15@aol.com>
To: WeFink@aol.com, Beautijill@aol.com, FPLooney@aol.com, IciclesJK@aol.com,
	HECHTIC7@aol.com, SteevyBee@aol.com, NovISimO@aol.com, Schaffpup@aol.com,
	LMC4@aol.com, Levster@aol.com, Shwitz14@aol.com, J9473@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 23:02:34 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part101_884741213_boundary"

--part101_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.203>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part101_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.204>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: JlgSTAR <JlgSTAR@aol.com>
Return-path: <JlgSTAR@aol.com>
To: SuzieG15@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 22:58:18 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part102_884741213_boundary"

--part102_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.205>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

--part102_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Glick5983 <Glick5983@aol.com>
Return-path: <Glick5983@aol.com>
To: Katbos@aol.com, JlgSTAR@aol.com, COOLWATERS@aol.com, Mishucat@aol.com,
	Muffinpoo@aol.com, SHELLBGOOD@aol.com, Arcade98@aol.com,
	Jadadys522@aol.com, CYBERMADA@aol.com, RALPH006@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:37:30 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part103_884741213_boundary"

--part103_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.207>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part103_884741213_boundary
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Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: Scheny <Scheny@aol.com>
Return-path: <Scheny@aol.com>
To: Glick5983@aol.com, Starbuck72@aol.com, Phonzi@aol.com, ScottUd69@aol.com,
	LeGs06@aol.com, LYNZE@aol.com, RIKK37@aol.com, ALIOOP17@aol.com,
	POCCADOTS@aol.com, Nana1718@aol.com, MIK44@aol.com, JaredCU@aol.com,
	Amo27@aol.com, MuttButt99@aol.com, DaveyLong@aol.com, JerryM88@aol.com,
	EmRo16@aol.com, DPrincessZ@aol.com, All4BB18@aol.com, Golde51@aol.com,
	Pasdanuce@aol.com, TAXIJON@aol.com, OKDoeK16@aol.com, CoolHorse2@aol.com,
	Coolspace@aol.com, Lippie@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:27:51 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part104_884741213_boundary"

--part104_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.209>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part104_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.210>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

From: JuanyPaco <JuanyPaco@aol.com>
Return-path: <JuanyPaco@aol.com>
To: Apashoot@aol.com, PrncesColi@aol.com, WIDEREACH@aol.com, Mer4321@aol.com,
	WILD90210@aol.com, JBradley40@aol.com, MUpton1041@aol.com, GMW10@aol.com,
	Breal33@aol.com, Demonic13@aol.com, Marioman@aol.com, Scheny@aol.com,
	UncleZemus@aol.com, JRoss26@aol.com, MATTHEW978@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:07:21 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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From: Majestic44 <Majestic44@aol.com>
Return-path: <Majestic44@aol.com>
To: Absolut526@aol.com, ALibek@aol.com, AUwish@aol.com, BLewis813@aol.com,
	BLUE55351@aol.com, GARYMG23@aol.com, GodApps@aol.com, GMW10@aol.com,
	JPoll11@aol.com, Klim12@aol.com, LADYBUG423@aol.com, Lily21A@aol.com,
	JuanyPaco@aol.com, JohnD1691@aol.com, MikeBon69@aol.com, Niknos@aol.com,
	Ron31482@aol.com, SBECK56@aol.com, SkiR69@aol.com, SKY8LU@aol.com,
	Softy143@aol.com, Thenga1@aol.com, Val232@aol.com, Wellmont@aol.com,
	WYNDOBOY@aol.com, Zona123@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 22:53:44 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Lily21A <Lily21A@aol.com>
Return-path: <Lily21A@aol.com>
To: Dgm82@aol.com, JPoll11@aol.com, GMW10@aol.com, BLUE55351@aol.com,
	Zona123@aol.com, Val232@aol.com, Absolut526@aol.com, Majestic44@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:50:51 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: BLUE 55351 <BLUE55351@aol.com>
Return-path: <BLUE55351@aol.com>
To: Zona123@aol.com, Absolut526@aol.com, Lily21A@aol.com, Val232@aol.com,
	GLAMGIRLJ@aol.com, CandyWorld@aol.com, AlxMck@aol.com, Klim12@aol.com,
	LADYBUG423@aol.com, Softy143@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:42:21 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: JcMM22 <JcMM22@aol.com>
Return-path: <JcMM22@aol.com>
To: FaTtYdUiTz@aol.com, Drew1770@aol.com, Leidback7@aol.com, Keats125@aol.com,
	Guitar1212@aol.com, Missy0581@aol.com, Allie122@aol.com,
	Casbah4509@aol.com, PUCK850@aol.com, Sportsy82@aol.com, Wiley782@aol.com,
	Ringo356@aol.com, WwmaddwW@aol.com, MArons417@aol.com,
	FREEWAY123@aol.com, MPHL@aol.com, DONTE69@aol.com, RODHOUSE52@aol.com,
	GuMdRoP7@aol.com, CURLINU@aol.com, PLAH10@aol.com, Slaps0813@aol.com,
	K48os@aol.com, TrayC97@aol.com, RockyS@aol.com, Angel41583@aol.com,
	June14cup@aol.com, mgoldspi@acme.highpoint.edu, AlwysDaMan@aol.com,
	AJS5420@aol.com, Mimi51881@aol.com, FireKila23@aol.com,
	GroovyChi@aol.com, MBSUGAR@aol.com, Wenz3@aol.com, DanH629@aol.com,
	Lippie@aol.com, BluEyedRez@aol.com, PANam80@aol.com, Jordypooh2@aol.com,
	LIN4482@aol.com, BLUE55351@aol.com, LtBean829@aol.com, EBR214@aol.com,
	JACKAL597@aol.com, Spirit683@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 15:08:52 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part109_884741213_boundary"

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From: HOOT16 <HOOT16@aol.com>
Return-path: <HOOT16@aol.com>
To: JcMM22@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:05:35 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part110_884741213_boundary"

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Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.221>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

PASS THIS ON

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From: Chickee876 <Chickee876@aol.com>
Return-path: <Chickee876@aol.com>
To: HOOT16@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:03:55 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part111_884741213_boundary"

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From: Luken4love <Luken4love@aol.com>
Return-path: <Luken4love@aol.com>
To: Jade956214@aol.com
Cc: Shorty731@aol.com, Chickee876@aol.com, Gigls2much@aol.com, Cow812@aol.com,
	Ninajb20@aol.com, Dazzled976@aol.com, Angel11258@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 06:38:39 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part112_884741213_boundary"

--part112_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.225>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

sorry just had to send this on

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From: Rocky58 <Rocky58@aol.com>
Return-path: <Rocky58@aol.com>
To: TAPNUT@aol.com, Sticksft@aol.com, MJKrupka@aol.com, SandCaztle@aol.com,
	Tkit2dlmit@aol.com, Luken4love@aol.com, CHESTNUT4U@aol.com,
	Acooie@aol.com, DSherman3@aol.com, SLYSADDLE@aol.com, DrthVder83@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 20:14:24 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
	boundary="part113_884741213_boundary"

--part113_884741213_boundary
Content-ID: <0_884741213@inet_out.mail.aol.com.227>
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From: DIIAWB2 <DIIAWB2@aol.com>
Return-path: <DIIAWB2@aol.com>
To: Rocky58@aol.com, PoolShrk82@aol.com, EZinFL@aol.com, DLover76@aol.com,
	Paulkd6jxy@aol.com
Subject: RE:  AOL is going to charge us to chat...Sign Petition, Please
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:22:50 EDT
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit


 AOL HAS PROPOSED AN EXTRA CHARGE FOR THE MEMBERS WITH THE "UNLIMITED USE"
BILLING PLAN.  THEY PLAN TO CHARGE US $1.95 PER HOUR FOR USING THE CHAT ROOMS.
THIS NEW CHARGE IS GOING TO BE PUBLICLY ANNOUNCED WITHIN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS.
IN ORDER TO STOP THEM FROM TAKING OUR UNLIMITED USAGE(WHICH MEANS ALL AREAS OF
AOL), YOU SHOULD ELECTRONICALLY "SIGN" THIS PETITION BY SENDING THIS LETTER TO
EVERY ONE YOU KNOW.  THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT. >>

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----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 17:54:42 1998
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	for rglass-42; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:53:21 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: worldnet.att.net!tcraft
From: "Tom Craft" <tcraft@worldnet.att.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:55:47 -0700
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.115547.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



>>
>>But, I am not having any luck connecting to their site at all.  I keep
>>getting an error message.  I have searched using 5 or 6 different
>>search engines, and still can't come up with another address.
>>
>>I did find a listing for them in one of the on-line yellow pages.  They
>>are listed there as Powers Brothers Stained Glass.  It did not list an
>>e-mail address for them.  Although, I did find an address for a John
>>Powers in Scottsdale, Arizona.  I sent him a message to find out if
>>it is the same John Powers.
>>
>>Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
>>studio?
>>
>>Dawn


There is a 'Powers Illustrated Stained Glass'  ad in the Scottsdale yellow
pages and a 'Powers Brothers Stained Glass, Inc. listing in the same yellow
pages. Theeir address is listed as 7174 E. Thomas Road, Scottsdale (602)
941-8272.
I stopped in there several years ago when I moved here looking for a
hobbiest supply shop. They were set up more for custom and commercial work.

Tom


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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:11:23 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!WhispyBlu
From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: nuggets in a jar
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:07:56 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.2756.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 98-01-13 17:33:14 EST, you write:

<< t.  After an ordeal of foiling 100
 or so small nuggets, and saying I'd never do it again, maybe there's a
 tip I need to know. >>


The hint was to put them in a plastic jar and shake them up.  This is suppose
to crimp the foil.  I am excited about trying this soon.  Lu Ann
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:13:37 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: aol.com!WhispyBlu
From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:02:51 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.2251.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 98-01-13 13:22:42 EST, you write:

<< I was surprised that not everyone knew the bit about crimping nuggets 
 by twirling them in a jar--and am trying to think of other things of 
 that ilk that maybe should be passed along!
  >>

I hope no one takes for granted that we all know the "simple" things or even
what some might think are the "obvious".  You don't know how happy I was to be
told about crimping nuggets.  I had never heard of it and obviously never
thought of a different way than trying to do it by hand.  You don't know how
many of those little things ended up flying across the room while I was
foiling/crimping them.  If I ever pull out the cabinets, workbenches, etc....
I will probably have enough for the next project.   Lu Ann
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:20:57 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: compuserve.com!GreerStudios
From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:19:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.16194.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Well, Shirley, thanks for trying
that out with all the acids!  (and
what great turnaround time!)  So,
it sounds like in a pinch we could
use reconstituted lemon juice in
place of flux and still get some
soldering accomplished, correct?
And without terribly worse =

performance if you rated it an
8.  Now a few more of us should
try it out and send in results and
maybe we'll have found a
vegetarian alternative - I know
somebody requested one a few
months back.  Now, I know with
a little marketing, Shirley, you =

could sell this stuff - how about
"Grapeland Lemon Flux" as a name?
;-)

Best regards and thanks,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:52:37 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: mail.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:47:43 +0000
Message-ID: <199801140250.CAA11352@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Suzanne,

I think I mentioned this Multicore tip cleaner some months ago; a 
"titchy" little round tin box (about 3/4 inch across or less. You are 
supposed to dip/dig/rub your iron tip in this grey mess (It 
stinks!!). It really work wonders and I use it all the time.
It was developed for small electronic irons initially. I have been 
unable to get hold of larger tins. So what I do, I buy 6 or so of 
these tiny little things, tip them all into a larger metal container 
(with lid) and mi iron bit has plento of room to move about inside.
;->  By the way, I thought that Multicore was an American 
company.....?
 Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

I found a little "tip tinner" called, I believe, Multi-Core. It's from 
England and I get it at Warner-Crivellaro. Just a tiny little round thing 
that you rub your iron in and it's immediately nice and shiny. Costs 
about $6. It sure beats the sal-ammoniac block.

Seems lately Canfield isn't as pure as I thought. I've tried Hirsch and 
like that a lot better. Also one called AVM, or something like that, says 
it uses "virgin metals." Not so much crud to wipe off.

----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:52:40 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Sort of blanket reply to flux, tallow, Chartres,lead, etc...
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:47:43 +0000
Message-ID: <199801140250.CAA11340@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Ok Dani,
So I picked on YOU to start off a collection of blanket replies to 
various bits and pieces. Hope you folks will forgive my laziness/ 
lack of time.
The Taxman Cometh... :-<

< snip>
 I'm confused about George Pozan's technique.  Usually 
when you "mud" or cement a window, you don't use
patina... the process does the job
for you.  And why would one use
soap and water on a cemented
lead window... doesn't make much
sense to me. <snip>

When you cement, you need to leave the cement to dry off (about 12-24 
hours) before you start to clean off the xcess cement  and whiting . 
Although I don't personally use soap & water, I can see the reason 
and logic for doing so. It helps to loosen the caked up cement on top 
of the lead face. The lead needs to be absolutely clean before you 
can polish it. The cement also has a habit of crawling in  at lumpy 
or bad solder joints.... I never recommend even the finest wire-wool 
for cleaning cement off lead. There is always a risk of scratching 
the glass. Also - when using heavily textured glass, the cement has 
an uncanny way of REALLY getting ingrained into the pits of the 
glass. Soap & water helps to lift that too. In my mind, using soap 
and water weakens the cement before it has set properly (which takes 
a bit longer that 12-24 hours.) I use lashings of whiting and a very 
stiff old fashioned scrubbing brush and plenty of elbow-grease to 
survive this process.If then there is still cement residue in the 
textured glass, I put the panel on an easel and "pick" at it until I 
get every single bit out. Another thing, I never use patina on lead. 
I use what you might call "stove black". Here in UK,  it's a black, 
fairly runny stove cream which comes in a tube called Zebrite or 
Zebo.  Kitchen maids in large Victorian households used to clean and 
polish the cast-iron kitchen ranges with it, as well as the  iron 
open fire-hoods.  (I have posted info about this about a year ago on 
Bungi). You blob it on the lead, then brush it in with a large, soft 
brush (preferrably with a handle attached - a bit like a horse 
brush, but softer), just like you would polish an old treasured pair 
of shoes. The more the better. The polish also really makes the glass 
glow!!! When I tell my students to polish the panels like these 
treasured shoes, some of them look at me with totally blank 
expressions; they have never polished shoes in their lives!!!!
Does this make better sense??

Someone  else asked: "What is TALLOW"
Answer: Animal fat! pure and simple. Tallow was traditionally the 
material  from which early candles were made. . But tallow burnt very 
quickly and it also smoked a lot, because  of its fairly unrefined 
state. Modern methods of making candles introduced the technique of 
adding stearin (which makes them burn slower) and refining the fat or 
wax much more. But the stained glass industry still uses tallow for 
flux. (And apart from being a bit harder to wash off, it works fine 
for both lead and copper foil). Hence my rather flippant comment 
about trying to use a modern candle as flux and see what happens....
(After all, one or two of Bungi people seem to think I am rather 
resistant to "modern technology".... ;->  )

 Doubt very much that there is any risk of BSE;   BSE comes from  
beef products located close to the spine of the animal (if I 
understand this correctly...).   In UK it has therefore in the last 
few weeks become illegal to sell beef-on-the-bone. The fat content, 
however, comes from  areas much closer to the "surface", so to 
speak.... (I think I just fairly elegantly answered another question 
as well).

STEPHANIE, forgive this way of replying, Thank you for asking. You 
are welcome to use whatever you feel is appropriate. I am quite happy 
for you to quote me and to use my name. When I have a few minutes I 
WILL get back to you off-group.......

I have today spent several hours with dear Computer Guru Chris. He 
has down-loaded  on to his "system" a selection from 3 photo-CDs and 
has now already started to add things to my WEB-page. The barn-owl is 
already there. By the way the eye of the barn-owl is a jewel fitted 
AND leaded into a hole cut into some rather soft and crumbly white 
glass. The hole was hand-cut, not drilled or anything as fancy as 
that.. I ruined 3 pieces of white glass before I finally succeeded. 
The barn-owl is about 5-6 years old now and still going strong. He 
now lives in a front door of a converted barn about 15 miles away 
from here.
 Also already up on my WEB-page is my large "musical panel" 
, one of three that I did for a married couple of musiscians, heavily 
involved internationally in classical music and touring all over the 
world. The gave me agreat, big, chunky, commemorative coin from the 
New York Philharmonic and asked me to design them a stained glass 
panel for them around its theme. So I did. It's about 2.5 ft wide and 
about 4.5 ft long; totally reinforced internally. The colours of the 
final photo is not quite what I had hoped for in the photograph. I 
must have been back about 4 times to re-photograph it. Below it are 2 
grape-vine panels (one of which I had to repair later when a visiting 
tenor from Austria got a little bit drunk and crashed through it...) 
These 2 panels are NOT on my WEB-page, because I myself found them a 
little bit boring, even though they are exactly what they wanted....

About another 4-5 pics of my work is currently being "tweeked" by 
Chris to go on my WEB-page shortly. The 2 panels from the United 
Reform Church will be a little while yet, as I still have not had a 
chance to take the photos.

All I need to do is to add the "verbiage" to ALL the pics.

However, as an extra treat to Toby-fans, there is an added pic of 
Toby Tobias as a very, very young lad......... ( 12-13 weeks - 
perhaps...).

Also downloaded to Chris's wonderful system to be "tweeked" are about 
15 photographs from our visit to CHARTRES  last Easter. He promised 
me tonight that he will create a separate Chartres page. I am sorry 
it has taken such a long time; partly it is due to me having to eat 
before I spend money on expensive photo processes that this kind of 
transfer still entails in UK and partly lack of time, and partly 
because I depend on Chris's generosity, time, effort, energy and good 
will to help me to realize all of this for me and for you.  The 
Chartres page will only be a temporary feature of my WEB-page, but it 
is finally happening.
It's 3 o'clock in the morning over here; please, may I go to bed 
now? I am teaching tomorrow......
I hope I haven't forgotten anything....(old age setting in - so I 
probably have!!)
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 18:59:34 1998
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From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: All <GLASS@BUNGI.COM>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Marilyn's big panel problem
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:57:08 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.16578.0>
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Precedence: bulk

Hi Marilyn-

Michael has three suggestions:

If you haven't bid the job, consider
having a welding shop make a =

brushed steel frame and include
the cost in your bid.

If you have bid it, use the zinc channel
but redistribute the weight by running
cable down the channel and secure =

at the bottom with washer and bolt - you
can also loop the cable at the top to
hang.

Lastly, there are some other options
including with brass, but rather than try
to explain in writing, give us a call - we'll
be in and out the next couple of days on
installations, but I'm sure we can touch
base before the weekend.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios

P.S. Congratulations! ;-)
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 19:00:09 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:54:27 +0000
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Oh Well , Shirley!!!!
a 100 out of 100 for Enterprise!!!
Improvise!! I shout at my students, IMPROVISE!
You appear to have taken it to a real Fine Art!
Can't WAIT to try your experiments for myself!!!
Sounds like good fun!
Try the common or garden household candle as well (as I will) and let 
us compare results!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK


 Well Dani,
Hey Dani,

This sounded like such fun, I did a little experimenting
with common households "acids".  The following are my
personal results using a Weller l00 iron with 800 tip. 
These figures are based using Glastar Gel Flux being rated
at 10:

100% Lye w/enough water to make paste  0
Household ammonia                      0
Vinegar (5% acidity)                   4
Olive oil                              4
Lemon Juice (reconstituted)            8
50/50% Lemon Juice/Olive Oil           6
Patchouli oil                          2 (but it smelled
great!)

All these tests were done with clean flux brushes on copper
foil (7/32" black-back) and Canfield 50/50 solder.

Feeling like Bill Nye, The Science Guy or Mr. Wizard,
Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.


Dani Greer wrote:
> 
> Good question, Steve, why
> does tallow work?  And why
> does oleic acid work?  Does
> that mean linoleic acid should
> work, too?  Has anyone ever
> tried using olive oil?
----
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----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 19:41:08 1998
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X-Path: glasstreasures.com!sgt
From: Stephanie Hansen <sgt@glasstreasures.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: RUMOR Re: AOL is going to charge us  RUMOR
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:38:34 -0600
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980113213834.007c7150@glasstreasures.com>
References: <<1998Jan14.12651.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>To anyone using AOL, please put the word out that AOL wants to charge those
>people using AOL an extra fee on top of the $19.95 per month already charged
>for unlimited usage. 

PLEASE don't EVER post this long a message on the bungi group - especially
when it has NOTHING to do with glass!  This is a RUMOR that has been going
around for months - did you even look at the bottom, how old it is through
all of the forwards??  The first message is from September for goodness
sake.  IT'S NOT TRUE!!!!!!!!!  This rumor was started back in July when
they started charging for games.  If they were going to do it, it would
have been done by now, with this message floating around since September.

Thanks for your concern for other AOL'ers, but this is not the proper forum
to post such a message.

Steph ~

Now back to your regularly scheduled glass chat....


------------------------------
Stephanie Hansen
Stained Glass Treasures/Dallas, TX
mailto:sgt@glasstreasures.com
NEW pictures are in the Gallery!
http://glasstreasures.com/
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 19:44:17 1998
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From: orbiter1 <orbiter1@airmail.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Free Netscape Download Areas
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:42:09 -0600
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980113214209.007c4380@mail.airmail.net>
References: <<199801112027.PAA19546@ee.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I had problems with Netscape when the program lost all of my bookmarks.
After downloading Internet Explorer, the browser runs fine and doesn't lose
my saved sites (mostly glass in nature).  However, IE isn't very good for
e-mail.  Periodically, it would not let me download any messages.  Finally,
I found Eudora Light.  I have had no problems reading all messages that
have come through.  Best of all, it has a filtering capability so that I
can separate family e-mail from the bungi group.  All of the e-mail was
driving my husband nuts trying to read messages from his family.  If anyone
is interested in downloading Eudora Light (it's free), I believe the site
is:  www.eudora.com.  If that doesn't work, search under the word Eudora.

	Shelley	

P.S.  I am mainly a lurker, but have learned a tremendous amount from this
group.  Thanks to everyone who has contributed.  

At 03:31 PM 1/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Thanks for the site downloads.  I intend to d/l Netscape sometime this
week.  
>
>Sheila
>Ohio
>
>----------
>| From: Northernlights <Northernlights@pobox.com>
>| To: glass@bungi.com
>| Subject: Free Netscape Download Areas
>| Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 12:19 AM
>| 
>| Been reading the messages about e-mails crashing your systems.  I
>| haven't had any problems and I only use Netscape for my e-mail.  Here
>| are two links for free downloads...the first one is for Netscape
>| Communicator  http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow
>| and the second one is for Netscape Gold
>| http://home.netscape.com/download/index.html?cp=hmp01sdow
>| 
>| Netscape Communicator is the newest and "fanciest" and I don't have much
>| experience at it, but I've installed it on my folks computer and they're
>| happy with it. I've been using Netscape Gold for the last couple of
>| years and like it just fine.
>| 
>| Just thought I'd help with locating the page for the free downloads!!!
>| ----
>| For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>| To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>| Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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>
>

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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 21:42:59 1998
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From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:36:04 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.5364.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
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Hi Marilyn;
I have to agree with "Greer Studios" about the reinforcing with chain clear to
the bottom, May I also suggest Chain from your local Home Improvment Outlet
...ie: HOME BASE or EAGLE Hardware, etc.
The ZINC outside WILL hold fine, I've used it for the same application, and
Larger pieces.
( though a wood frame is SO much more applicable when Not Installed.
Good Luck!  

MiChea`l  
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 21:53:52 1998
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From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@AOL.COM>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:51:16 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.55116.0>
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Hello Herb!
Yes, there's an ADDAPTER available (again at) Your local Hardware store. Of
course, it will make your Nightlite stick out about Another inch and 1/2 !!!
Good Luck.
MiChea`l 
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 22:04:33 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:37:13 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.193713.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.134530.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Why not just attach the tulip to the clip sideways so that it is straight
when plugged in?

(May require a few design changes, but should be doable.)

Gary Dodge                    
Dodge Studio Designs


On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:45:30 -0500 "Herb Adler" <herba@inspace.net>
writes:
>How has anyone solved this problem w/ nitelights/
>At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the 
>receptacle
>has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
>installation.
>Since I don't like my "tulips" growing sideways, I'm looking for a way 
>to
>handle this situation. Any ideas?
>
>Herb in Orlando
>
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 22:04:34 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Marilyn's big panel problem
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:49:20 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.194920.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.16578.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Don't forget that using 1/2" brass or zinc "U" came you have the outer
closed channel in the came open and can slide a rebar into it for
stiffening.
 __ __
l__l__     Picture to left represents view of end of zinc channel.

The illustration above shows the open channel for the glass on the right
and the hollow space on the left that you can slide a rebar into.

Gary Dodge

On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:57:08 -0500 "Michael J. Greer"
<GreerStudios@compuserve.com> writes:
>Hi Marilyn-
>
>Michael has three suggestions:
>
>If you haven't bid the job, consider
>having a welding shop make a =
>
>brushed steel frame and include
>the cost in your bid.
>
>If you have bid it, use the zinc channel
>but redistribute the weight by running
>cable down the channel and secure =
>
>at the bottom with washer and bolt - you
>can also loop the cable at the top to
>hang.
>
>Lastly, there are some other options
>including with brass, but rather than try
>to explain in writing, give us a call - we'll
>be in and out the next couple of days on
>installations, but I'm sure we can touch
>base before the weekend.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>
>P.S. Congratulations! ;-)
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Tue Jan 13 22:04:35 1998
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X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:32:56 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.193256.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.234058.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Theresa,
The object is to immerse only the tip. not the heating element where the
electricity lives.........but all the same, in 27 or so years of doing
stained glass it has never been a problem.
As for the rust thing, it just isn't a problem.  The tip is tinned with
solder and solder doesn't rust.
Any way you look at it, it is way less corrosive that the flux dipping
habbit some of our new intermediate students come in here with!

Gary Dodge              Dodge Studio Designs

On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:40:58 EST Shopfreaks <Shopfreaks@aol.com> writes:
>I sure do appreciate all the tips on soldering, as I got into fusing 
>pretty
>hot and heavy for awhile (no pun intended) and when I "came back" to 
>soldering
>I found that I had apparently lost something and was having many 
>problems.
>One thing I haven't tried is the sal amoniac water.  I think I'd have 
>trouble
>with this for two reasons - correct me if I'm wrong here, but:
>
>#1 - I have a fear of   water + elecricity + metal
>#2 - water + metal tips = rusty tips.  Do they not?
>
>Maybe it's fine, but it sounds kinda scary    8 {
>
>Theresa
>----
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>
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X-Path: aol.com!MMcclen740
From: MMcclen740 <MMcclen740@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Marilyn's big panel problem
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:19:24 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.61924.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Excellent!
Thank You Gary Dodge, I hadn't thought of that before reading your input.
And a NICE hiding job too!
(( I suppose one could control the ReBar, regardless of the material i.e;
Steel or ???
-with Liquid solder? ))
Great Idea!

PS: I must say I'm rather ammused with all the input of the "Why Flux"
responses.
especially the Petulli Oil !!!
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 00:08:40 1998
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: Why flux?
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:41:58 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.154158.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	Michael J. Greer [SMTP:GreerStudios@compuserve.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, January 13, 1998 4:07 PM
To:	INTERNET:glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Why flux?

Good question, Steve, why does tallow work?  And why does oleic acid work? 
 Does  that mean linoleic acid should
work, too?  Has anyone ever tried using olive oil?  Maybe we should do some 
trial runs on everyday items and see
what's to discover - a new andcleaner/better vegetarian flux??

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
[Glenn Spicer]  Linoleic acid works just fine  ( if it is a derivative of 
lanolin), less toxic as well I believe, Know a fellow who used it 
exclusively.  It smells a little and is a little harder to clean up, 
but....      

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end

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 00:09:15 1998
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:01:10 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.16110.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

First of all why does the client want it hung rather than installed? (hate 
it when clients start being unreasonable, but ....) Usually this means that 
they want to be able to take it with them if they leave, if this is the 
case then tell them that you can install it so that it can be removed. you 
say minutely larger what is minutely? 1/8" or 1" or 3"? it helps to know 
when trying to help you! If it is sitting on it's bottom edge, even lead 
will support the weight. Tell them it is structurally not secure for such a 
large window, especially in lead to be hung, the weight, even with a Zinc 
boarder could tear the window apart (maybe Gary Dodges solution will work 
though) ! A window of this size Needs a good wood or angle metal frame or 
to be installed. An steel metal frame could be constructed but your client 
would have to bear the cost. Hope this is of some help.

Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	ANL Glass [SMTP:ANLGlass@aol.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, January 13, 1998 3:49 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	large panel construction?


Marylyn wrote
Any suggestions on how best to approach this project will be greatly
appreciated ...

A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  They
don't
want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.  They plan 
to
hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the 
panel.

Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it, 
but
that
we use wood moulding to hold it in place, or else the clear acrylic clips.
But
will the zinc support the weight even if it's sitting rather than hanging?
Would adding rebar help?  (I guess it would have to be soldered to the 
border
zinc, since there's no wood frame to tie into.)

This is the biggest panel I've ever tackled!  I'm a little out of my league
..

Thanks for help!

ANLGlass@aol.com


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`
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 00:09:59 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:08:43 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:08:10, -0500
Message-ID: <199801140808.DAA11624@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Marilyn writes:

Any suggestions on how best to approach this project will be greatly
appreciated ...
A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  
They
don't want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.
  They plan 
to hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of 
the panel.

Bob groans,
A lead panel 45" X 35" is far more than a common 1/2" zinc U-cap 
frame is intended to support. Changing the frame material to brass 
will increase the strength by several times
but still be insuficient. Without further reinforcement this panel 
will still be flex city.

Running rebar or chain in the side U-cap as previously suggested will 
be a big help in preventing the basic panel from pulling away from 
the top but will not address the problem of the panel sagging of its 
own weight and bowing out the bottom. This panel is nearly three feet 
high and weighs perhaps fifty pounds. I question if you will even get 
it hung before the bottom has sagged to the window sill.

You could run a couple of strips of rebar from top to bottom spaced 
about 15"es apart. This reinforcement MIGHT answer the problem of 
sagging well. I would prefer a frame of at least  1' X 2" oak or 
simular strong wood to support the metal frame of the panel. Some 
clients like this idea because the panel can be removed for cleaning 
or moving.

Now to why I write. The client is entitled to have certain needs and 
wants. The pervayer of SG owes it to the client to deliver a 
serviceable product. I do not think there can be much argument to 
these two statements. It seems to me that when the client requests a 
product that is not serviceable they SHOULD be reeducated. If they 
can not bring themselves to reason it is a sign IMO that the work 
should be declined. Perhaps ten percent of my income is from setting 
right what should have been done right in the first place. I enjoy 
this income but it does no credit to the original crafter.

I write in the spirit of helping, Bob

____
Bob Duchesneau  Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow 
Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 01:35:21 1998
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X-Path: earthlink.net!jeksac
From: John Keller <jeksac@earthlink.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Powers Illustrated (Was Windows of North America)
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:38:54 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan13.213854.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.18192.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Admin Kit Investigator
Precedence: bulk

Dawn,
I think your URL (the web site address) is wrong.  I just tried:
	http://www.stained-glass.com
and it went right through.  you didn't include the "e" in stained.
Linn

Dawn wrote:
> 
> Well, how completely disappointing.  I have the address.  It is:
> http://www.staind-glass.com.
> 
> But, I am not having any luck connecting to their site at all.  I keep
> getting an error message.  I have searched using 5 or 6 different
> search engines, and still can't come up with another address.
> 
> I did find a listing for them in one of the on-line yellow pages.  They
> are listed there as Powers Brothers Stained Glass.  It did not list an
> e-mail address for them.  Although, I did find an address for a John
> Powers in Scottsdale, Arizona.  I sent him a message to find out if
> it is the same John Powers.
> 
> Anyone out there in the Scottsdale area know anything about this
> studio?
> 
> Dawn
> 
> > Dawn - did you make a note of Powers Illustrated Stained Glass Studio web
> > site address?
> > Elizabeth & Sam
> ----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 04:28:49 1998
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X-Path: mwt.net!alcamoz
From: "len alcamo" <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 06:33:55 -0600
Message-ID: <199801141224.GAA20959@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

>Good question, Steve, why does tallow work?  And why does oleic acid work?
> Does  that mean linoleic acid should
>work, too?  Has anyone ever tried using olive oil?  Maybe we should do some
>trial runs on everyday items and see
>what's to discover - a new andcleaner/better vegetarian flux??
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dani Greer
>Greer Gallery & Studios
>[Glenn Spicer]  Linoleic acid works just fine  ( if it is a derivative of
>lanolin), less toxic as well I believe, Know a fellow who used it
>exclusively.  It smells a little and is a little harder to clean up,
>but....
>
>

Hi Dani and all

I use oleic acid (red oil) exclusively for lead soldering also. Its stinks
and smokes and I would not reccomend it for use in a home studio or on
copperfoil work, ( hard on the adhesive)  but IMNSHO it lays out the solder
more uniformly and more smoothly then any other flux I have ever tried. A
small dab goes a long way and the dark color makes it easy to see when
applying.

I am not sure why it works so well but my guess is that as soon as you apply
heat the viscousity changes rapidly (as with any oil)  and it immediatly
becomes very liquid as it combines with the solder  which aids the solder in
flowing out. The other major plus is that it never ever splatters under any
conditions because of the low temp at which it vaporizes.


Len










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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 06:13:20 1998
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From: "Don McDonald" <don@ccti.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <don@eve.corp.ccti.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:16:11 +0000
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> Now to why I write. The client is entitled to have certain needs and 
> wants. The pervayer of SG owes it to the client to deliver a 
> serviceable product. I do not think there can be much argument to 
> these two statements. It seems to me that when the client requests a 
> product that is not serviceable they SHOULD be reeducated. If they 
> can not bring themselves to reason it is a sign IMO that the work 
> should be declined. Perhaps ten percent of my income is from setting 
> right what should have been done right in the first place. I enjoy 
> this income but it does no credit to the original crafter.
> 
I second the reeducate or decline idea.  I've just dealt with a 
 similar situation.  You tell them it won't work, they understand and 
want you to do it anyway, you do it, it doesn't work just like you 
said, they are unhappy.  They blame it on you even though you told 
them.  Some how they think that paying you what seems like big money 
(to them) ought to magically make it work. Remember, you are the 
professional and it is your name that will be on the beautiful piece 
of work properly done in the window or on the pile of glass shards on 
the floor.

Don M. McDonald
Web Design
Corporate Communications Technology
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 06:21:53 1998
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X-Path: mwt.net!alcamoz
From: "len alcamo" <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:29:33 -0600
Message-ID: <199801141417.IAA26366@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


-->
>A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  They
>don't
>want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.  They plan
to
>hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the
panel.>
>Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it,

Hi Marylin

Your inclination is absolutely correct. This is a very poor idea, not just
because of the hassle of fabricating a proper frame and its attachments,,
but more so from an aesthic viewpoint. White light bleeding in around the
perimeter of a stained glass panel especially a small amount, is very
unattractive and unpleasent to the eye and severly distracts from the beauty
of the SG. Perhaps you could demonstate this by measuring a small accesable
window at their place and cutting out two peices of paper one the cover the
whole light and one the shows light around the perimeter.

(I'm trying to give you some ammunition here to shoot holes in their idea)

If the are planning on moving it someday whats the chances that they will
have another location where a panel of the size can be hung? Or even if the
motif would be attractive in a different setting? Besides a frame can be
fabricated if and when that time comes.

Emphisize that you are not a metalworker and that fabrication of the frame
will have to be farmed out and most likely be fairly expensive.

If the metal frame idea is somehow tied into their decor sensibilities,
suggest that the panel can be properly set against the existing light and
trimmed out with some nice looking metallic stock. If they go for it,
suggest that they visit a frame shop to pick out something that they like.
Its good strategy to distract the client by getting them involved in a
decision thats as far removed the essence of their bad idea as possible but
still dealing in the same area if that particular aspect of the project is
so important to them.

Your the *guy* Marilyn and its in your best interest to take control of the
situation. Ask questions, find out exactly why they want this a framed
panel, they might not have a good reason, it might have just come to them...
it's obviously not an informed decission. Be convincing, butter 'em up but
get them to reconsider.

If you don't need or want this gig, follow Doug's suggestion and turn it
down.....but before I did that I would quote them a big price.... if they go
for it, fine.  Get a first rate frame made, hire all the qualified help you
need to get it installed properly and feel at ease. I know that every time
you go chasing around because of an offbeat project that you priced like a
regular job, your going to take it on the chin in the long run.

>>Would adding rebar help?

Dependent on the design, a panel of that size is going to require
reinforcement in any case. How and how much should be a consideration in the
cartoon stage not as an afterthought.

>
>This is the biggest panel I've ever tackled!  I'm a little out of my league

No one is ever out of their league with the collective wisdom of the bungi
folks behind them.

Just the do's and dont's of flipping a 3x4 panel is worthy of a decent
thread  :-)

Good Luck!

Len






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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 06:39:51 1998
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From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Appeal for help.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:34:03 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.1343.0>
References: <<m0xravD-0000O4C@daver.bungi.com>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Glenna Rand wrote:
> 
> [In the message entitled "Appeal for help." on Jan 11, 15:19, "The Banker's House" writes:]
> 
> >
> >       As the "leaders" of the group, and I hope I haven't missed anyone.  Is
> > there some way to prevent these "Lock-ups, and System crashes" in the
> > future.  MANY people have had problems.... significantly more than the 4-5
> 
> No,..there is nothing we can do about it.  It's up to people to
> use mail readers that don't crash.  I myself use UNIX and have no
> problems at all.
> 
> --
> Glenna Rand
> gjr@bungi.com
> ----

I have always used Netscape and have also never had any problems with
mail crashes.

V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island NC USA
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 06:47:35 1998
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From: Di Baker <rbaker@mail.abelink.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Suncatcher Question
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:51:00
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Everyone!

I have been doing several copper foiled suncatchers -- I really would
appreciate more tips / instructions on soldering the wire around the edge
to reinforce.

Thanks!

Di Baker
rbaker@abelink.com

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 06:50:38 1998
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Subject: New on Art Glass World
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:49:09 -0500 (EST)
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--Art Glass World Update--

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catalog includes 5 pages of glass photos samples and glass specifications 
on over 1000 color and color combinations in carefully controlled densities.  
Catalog includes Cathedral, Corella Classic, Opalescent, Wispy, Streaky, Mixed
Mottle Opalescent, Cast Mottle Opalescent, Stream-X, Victorian, Mottle, and 
English Muffle.  See why Wissmach covers the world with glass at
www.artglassworld.com/supply/wissmach. 

Glass Patterns Quarterly
Visit the new Table of Contents page to see what's in this feature packed
issue of Glass Patterns Quarterly, on sale now.  Features include Southwestern 
Lamp, Four Season Series Winter, The Call of the Wolf , 16 page pattern
pull out selection and more.  Web site also includes free sample how-to-articles
and patterns online andonline order form.  Visit the new Table of Contents on
a regular basis to see what's in the latest issue of this popular magazine.  
Visit at www.glasspatterns.com.

Stained Glass Quarterly Magazine
New articles online including Rose Windows, In Search of Inspiration, The
Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception and You Are Here.  Now 13 full
articles online.  Other web site features include F.Y.I.: Notes & News, F.Y.I.:
People, Stained Glass Mart Ads and Catalogue Ads.  Visit from the AGW
Magazines page at www.artglassworld.com/magazine.html.

Q&A's From Stained Glass News
SGN answers new questions "What is tinning and why is it important" and
"How do you bend all the little pieces of glass to make the rounded shape
of a Tiffany style lampshade?". Check out past questions for helpful tips
and techniques.  Visit from the AGW Education page at
www.artglassworld.com/edu.html.

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Tampa, FL  33609  USA                phone: 813-872-4404
www.artglassworld.com/supply/dti     fax: 813-872-6288
================================================================

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 10:30:12 1998
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From: Shopfreaks <Shopfreaks@aol.com>
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Subject: reinforcement
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:49:28 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.174928.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Here's a blanket question to all of you experienced window makers.   What is
the largest you would build a panel WITHOUT some kind of reinforcement in it
or around the perimeter. (Besides the framing itself).  I've never built a
window, so I'm looking for some guidelines.  Does anyone have the basics they
would take the time to share, or could recommend a good book on the subject.
I want to broaden my knowledge base.

Thankyou,
Theresa
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 10:30:47 1998
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
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Subject:  Sort of blanket reply to flux, tallow, Chartres,lead, et
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:18:17 +0000
Message-ID: <199801141821.SAA23817@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


Dear all,

Apologies, if the following message DID get through the ether and I 
am therefore making you folks "suffer" twice....
But somehow, my records does not show it as having been "sent". 
Well.... it WAS almost 4 in the morning over here... ;-)
I just might have pushed the wrong button.

 Date:  Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:46:25

Ok Dani,
So I picked on YOU to start off a collection of blanket replies to 
various bits and pieces. Hope you folks will forgive my laziness/ 
lack of time.
The Taxman Cometh... :-<

< snip>
 I'm confused about George Pozan's technique.  Usually 
when you "mud" or cement a window, you don't use
patina... the process does the job
for you.  And why would one use
soap and water on a cemented
lead window... doesn't make much
sense to me. <snip>

When you cement, you need to leave the cement to dry off (about 12-24 
hours) before you start to clean off the xcess cement  and whiting . 
Although I don't personally use soap & water, I can see the reason 
and logic for doing so. It helps to loosen the caked up cement on top 
of the lead face. The lead needs to be absolutely clean before you 
can polish it. The cement also has a habit of crawling in  at lumpy 
or bad solder joints.... I never recommend even the finest wire-wool 
for cleaning cement off lead. There is always a risk of scratching 
the glass. Also - when using heavily textured glass, the cement has 
an uncanny way of REALLY getting ingrained into the pits of the 
glass. Soap & water helps to lift that too. In my mind, using soap 
and water weakens the cement before it has set properly (which takes 
a bit longer that 12-24 hours.) I use lashings of whiting and a very 
stiff old fashioned scrubbing brush and plenty of elbow-grease to 
survive this process.If then there is still cement residue in the 
textured glass, I put the panel on an easel and "pick" at it until I 
get every single bit out. Another thing, I never use patina on lead. 
I use what you might call "stove black". Here in UK,  it's a black, 
fairly runny stove cream which comes in a tube called Zebrite or 
Zebo.  Kitchen maids in large Victorian households used to clean and 
polish the cast-iron kitchen ranges with it, as well as the  iron 
open fire-hoods.  (I have posted info about this about a year ago on 
Bungi). You blob it on the lead, then brush it in with a large, soft 
brush (preferrably with a handle attached - a bit like a horse 
brush, but softer), just like you would polish an old treasured pair 
of shoes. The more the better. The polish also really makes the glass 
glow!!! When I tell my students to polish the panels like these 
treasured shoes, some of them look at me with totally blank 
expressions; they have never polished shoes in their lives!!!!
Does this make better sense??

Someone  else asked: "What is TALLOW"
Answer: Animal fat! pure and simple. Tallow was traditionally the 
material  from which early candles were made. . But tallow burnt very 
quickly and it also smoked a lot, because  of its fairly unrefined 
state. Modern methods of making candles introduced the technique of 
adding stearin (which makes them burn slower) and refining the fat or 
wax much more. But the stained glass industry still uses tallow for 
flux. (And apart from being a bit harder to wash off, it works fine 
for both lead and copper foil). Hence my rather flippant comment 
about trying to use a modern candle as flux and see what happens....
(After all, one or two of Bungi people seem to think I am rather 
resistant to "modern technology".... ;->  )

 Doubt very much that there is any risk of BSE;   BSE comes from  
beef products located close to the spine of the animal (if I 
understand this correctly...).   In UK it has therefore in the last 
few weeks become illegal to sell beef-on-the-bone. The fat content, 
however, comes from  areas much closer to the "surface", so to 
speak.... (I think I just fairly elegantly answered another question 
as well).

STEPHANIE, forgive this way of replying, Thank you for asking. You 
are welcome to use whatever you feel is appropriate. I am quite happy 
for you to quote me and to use my name. When I have a few minutes I 
WILL get back to you off-group.......

I have today spent several hours with dear Computer Guru Chris. He 
has down-loaded  on to his "system" a selection from 3 photo-CDs and 
has now already started to add things to my WEB-page. The barn-owl is 
already there. By the way the eye of the barn-owl is a jewel fitted 
AND leaded into a hole cut into some rather soft and crumbly white 
glass. The hole was hand-cut, not drilled or anything as fancy as 
that.. I ruined 3 pieces of white glass before I finally succeeded. 
The barn-owl is about 5-6 years old now and still going strong. He 
now lives in a front door of a converted barn about 15 miles away 
from here.
 Also already up on my WEB-page is my large "musical panel" 
, one of three that I did for a married couple of musiscians, heavily 
involved internationally in classical music and touring all over the 
world. The gave me agreat, big, chunky, commemorative coin from the 
New York Philharmonic and asked me to design them a stained glass 
panel for them around its theme. So I did. It's about 2.5 ft wide and 
about 4.5 ft long; totally reinforced internally. The colours of the 
final photo is not quite what I had hoped for in the photograph. I 
must have been back about 4 times to re-photograph it. Below it are 2 
grape-vine panels (one of which I had to repair later when a visiting 
tenor from Austria got a little bit drunk and crashed through it...) 
These 2 panels are NOT on my WEB-page, because I myself found them a 
little bit boring, even though they are exactly what they wanted....

About another 4-5 pics of my work is currently being "tweeked" by 
Chris to go on my WEB-page shortly. The 2 panels from the United 
Reform Church will be a little while yet, as I still have not had a 
chance to take the photos.

All I need to do is to add the "verbiage" to ALL the pics.

However, as an extra treat to Toby-fans, there is an added pic of 
Toby Tobias as a very, very young lad......... ( 12-13 weeks - 
perhaps...).

Also downloaded to Chris's wonderful system to be "tweeked" are about 
15 photographs from our visit to CHARTRES  last Easter. He promised 
me tonight that he will create a separate Chartres page. I am sorry 
it has taken such a long time; partly it is due to me having to eat 
before I spend money on expensive photo processes that this kind of 
transfer still entails in UK and partly lack of time, and partly 
because I depend on Chris's generosity, time, effort, energy and good 
will to help me to realize all of this for me and for you.  The 
Chartres page will only be a temporary feature of my WEB-page, but it 
is finally happening.
It's 3 o'clock in the morning over here; please, may I go to bed 
now? I am teaching tomorrow......
I hope I haven't forgotten anything....(old age setting in - so I 
probably have!!)
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 10:42:30 1998
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X-Path: compuserve.com!Ensembles
From: "Christie Wood & George D'Ascenzo" <Ensembles@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Suncatcher Question
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:26:48 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.72648.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Depending on the weight of the suncatcher, you
should use an 18 or 20 gauge copper wire to make
the hanging loop.  Make sure to leave extra wire
on both sides of the loop, and then solder the extra
into the structure of the suncatcher - like down a major
vertical line on the back.

If the suncatcher is very large or heavy, you can run
the copper wire all the way around the outside edge
of the suncatcher, making the hanging loops where
you want them.  This method gives incredible strength
to free-form projects and also gives it a nice, finished
solder bead all around the outside edge.

Also, please use two loops on the suncatcher
whenever possible, rather than just one.  With just
one the suncatcher will have a tendency to spin around.
With two the suncatcher is very stable.  You can always
hang the suncatcher with two suction cups.  There's no
law that says you must use only one.

Christie A. Wood
Art Glass Ensembles, North Wales, PA
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 10:53:54 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:13:57 +0000
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Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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> Remember, you are the 
> professional and it is your name that will be on the beautiful piece 
> of work properly done in the window or on the pile of glass shards on 
> the floor.

Not to mention that it'll be your name on the legal papers when they 
file a lawsuit  claiming that as a professional you shoulda known 
better.

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 11:05:04 1998
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X-Path: fast.net!charles
From: charles <charles@fast.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:05:25 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.8525.0>
References: <<1998Jan13.134530.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Herb Adler wrote:
> 
> How has anyone solved this problem w/ nitelights/
> At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the
> receptacle
> has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
> installation.
> 
> We sell a lovely UL approved night light which has a base that
  swivels to fit horizontal oulets.  It also has a groove to
  accept brass clips.  The bulb is included also.
> Please call Warner-Crivellaro 800-523-4242.
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 11:15:55 1998
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From: Shopfreaks <Shopfreaks@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:30:04 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.17304.0>
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Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Gary -

Thankyou for clarifying the 'tip dip' for me...  I just thought the metal tip
might conduct electricity to the jar.      By the way - I'm not one of those
flux dippers either!

  ;)   Theresa
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 11:52:05 1998
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From: "Michael J. Greer" <GreerStudios@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:55 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.94855.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi Len-

But, where do you buy oleic acid?
I've tried everywhere including =

the oldest pharmacy in town (where
I acquire some of the weirdest
substances imaginable for art
projects!  They usually have to dig
in the basement where they stored
something 30 years ago.)  Let us
know - and while we're on the
subject of finding things - I'm
still trying to find a source for
groomers chalk (whiting) in large
bags, powder form not in block
form.  Any clues?  Thanks!

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 11:52:07 1998
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To: "INTERNET:glass@bungi.com" <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:48:47 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.94847.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

You're absolutely correct, Len.
I don't remember a thread on
flipping a large stained glass
panel.  I'll do the drawings and
you write the text, okay? ;-)

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 12:31:08 1998
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From: "Herb Adler" <herba@inspace.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:28:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.102812.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Looks like Charles has the answer- Thanks to all who contributed ideas.
-----Original Message-----
From: Herb Adler <herba@inspace.net>
To: Stained Glass <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:46 PM
Subject: Nightlights


>How has anyone solved this problem w/ nitelights/
>At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the
receptacle
>has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
>installation.
>Since I don't like my "tulips" growing sideways, I'm looking for a way to
>handle this situation. Any ideas?
>
>Herb in Orlando
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 12:31:56 1998
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X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 15:25:50, -0500
Message-ID: <199801142025.PAB20326@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Theresa wrote:
Here's a blanket question to all of you experienced window makers.   
What is
the largest you would build a panel WITHOUT some kind of 
reinforcement in it
or around the perimeter. (Besides the framing itself).  I've never 
built a
window, so I'm looking for some guidelines.  Does anyone have the 
basics they
would take the time to share, or could recommend a good book on the 
subject.
I want to broaden my knowledge base.

Thankyou,
Theresa

Reinforcement depends on the design of the window. Starting with the 
largest dimension being about one foot I will think of using brass 
reinforced lead for at least some of the runs. Many of my windows 
have bevel borders and they are likely to use the reinforced lead 
along the bevels. I have built windows to five X five feet and been 
successful with the brass reinforced lead. I also like it because it 
stiffens the window while the putty sets up and permits instillation 
with less fear of breakage.

Installed windows most often have 1/2" lead flat H which is only 
strong enough to permit instillation. Hanging windows will have a 
brass frame or wood frame. Really like a brass frame on a round 
window because of the low expense compared to a custom made round 
frame. If course, a came bender is required to make the circle. You 
can either buy a came bender or perhaps a SG studio will bend for a 
nominal charge like $2.00.

Rebar is necessary on some windows. This is often true when the 
window is exposed to the weather and wind pressures. Every 18" is a 
rule of thumb for some.

Better to strong then to weak, Bob 

____
Bob Duchesneau  Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow 
Road, Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 12:33:36 1998
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X-Path: mwt.net!alcamoz
From: "len alcamo" <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: oleic acid
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 14:42:47 -0600
Message-ID: <199801142029.OAA28217@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dani,

I got a mayo jar full of it about a hundred years ago woudn't have any idea
where to look now. It came from a drug store originally.  When we dicussed
it a while back someone posted that there was an available flux that was all
or part oelic.... don't remember the details. Hopefully we will have a
searchable archive someday to help us.

did find the MSDS which I included.... the stuff is non-toxic.... just a
common organic fatty acid.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
MSDS for   OLEIC ACID                                     Page  1
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   1 - PRODUCT IDENTIFICATION
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

PRODUCT NAME:     OLEIC ACID
FORMULA:          CH3(CH2)7CH:CH(CH2)7COOH
FORMULA WT:         282.47
CAS NO.:            112-80-1
NIOSH/RTECS NO.:  RG2275000
COMMON SYNONYMS:  9-OCTADECENOIC ACID
PRODUCT CODES:    0224
  EFFECTIVE: 05/06/86
  REVISION #02

                            PRECAUTIONARY LABELLING
BAKER SAF-T-DATA(TM) SYSTEM

                      HEALTH        -  0  NONE
                      FLAMMABILITY  -  1  SLIGHT
                      REACTIVITY    -  0  NONE
                      CONTACT       -  1  SLIGHT
HAZARD RATINGS ARE 0 TO 4 (0 = NO HAZARD; 4 = EXTREME HAZARD).

LABORATORY PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT

SAFETY GLASSES; LAB COAT

PRECAUTIONARY LABEL STATEMENTS

DURING USE AVOID CONTACT WITH EYES, SKIN, CLOTHING.  WASH THOROUGHLY AFTER
HANDLING.  WHEN NOT IN USE KEEP IN TIGHTLY CLOSED CONTAINER.

SAF-T-DATA(TM) STORAGE COLOR CODE:     ORANGE (GENERAL STORAGE)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   2 - HAZARDOUS COMPONENTS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

                          COMPONENT                         %      CAS NO.

                        NOT APPLICABLE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   3 - PHYSICAL DATA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

BOILING POINT:    N/A                         VAPOR PRESSURE(MM HG): 9.4

MELTING POINT:        6 C (    43 F)          VAPOR DENSITY(AIR=1):  N/A

SPECIFIC GRAVITY:  0.89                       EVAPORATION RATE:      N/A
   (H2O=1)                                       (BUTYL ACETATE=1)

SOLUBILITY(H2O):     NEGLIGIBLE (LESS THAN 0.1 %)  % VOLATILES BY VOLUME:
100


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
MSDS for   OLEIC ACID                                     Page  2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
APPEARANCE & ODOR:  COLORLESS TO LIGHT YELLOW VISCOUS LIQUID.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   4 - FIRE AND EXPLOSION HAZARD DATA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

FLASH POINT (CLOSED CUP   N/A                 NFPA 704M RATING:  0-1-0

FLAMMABLE LIMITS:  UPPER - N/A  %       LOWER - N/A  %

FIRE EXTINGUISHING MEDIA
  USE EXTINGUISHING MEDIA APPROPRIATE FOR SURROUNDING FIRE.

SPECIAL FIRE-FIGHTING PROCEDURES
  FIREFIGHTERS SHOULD WEAR PROPER PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT AND SELF-CONTAINED
  BREATHING APPARATUS WITH FULL FACEPIECE OPERATED IN POSITIVE PRESSURE
MODE.

TOXIC GASES PRODUCED
  CARBON MONOXIDE, CARBON DIOXIDE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   5 - HEALTH HAZARD DATA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--


TOXICITY:   LD50 (IV-MOUSE) (MG/KG)         -  230

CARCINOGENICITY:  NTP: NO     IARC: NO     Z LIST: NO     OSHA REG: NO

EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE
  NO EFFECTS OF OVEREXPOSURE WERE DOCUMENTED.

TARGET ORGANS
  NONE IDENTIFIED

MEDICAL CONDITIONS GENERALLY AGGRAVATED BY EXPOSURE
  NONE IDENTIFIED

ROUTES OF ENTRY
  NONE INDICATED

EMERGENCY AND FIRST AID PROCEDURES
  INGESTION:     IF SWALLOWED AND THE PERSON IS CONSCIOUS, IMMEDIATELY GIVE
                    LARGE AMOUNTS OF WATER.  GET MEDICAL ATTENTION.
  INHALATION:    IF A PERSON BREATHES IN LARGE AMOUNTS, MOVE THE EXPOSED
                    PERSON TO FRESH AIR.  GET MEDICAL ATTENTION.
  EYE CONTACT:   IMMEDIATELY FLUSH WITH PLENTY OF WATER FOR AT LEAST 15
                    MINUTES.  GET MEDICAL ATTENTION.
  SKIN CONTACT:  IMMEDIATELY WASH WITH PLENTY OF SOAP AND WATER FOR AT LEAST
                    15 MINUTES.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   6 - REACTIVITY DATA
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

STABILITY:  STABLE                 HAZARDOUS POLYMERIZATION:  WILL NOT OCCUR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
MSDS for   OLEIC ACID                                     Page  3
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

CONDITIONS TO AVOID:    HEAT, LIGHT
INCOMPATIBLES:          STRONG OXIDIZING AGENTS, ALUMINUM

DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS: CARBON MONOXIDE, CARBON DIOXIDE

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   7 - SPILL AND DISPOSAL PROCEDURES
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

STEPS TO BE TAKEN IN THE EVENT OF A SPILL OR DISCHARGE
  WEAR SUITABLE PROTECTIVE CLOTHING.  TAKE UP WITH SAND OR OTHER NONCOM-
  BUSTIBLE ABSORBENT MATERIAL AND PLACE INTO CONTAINER FOR LATER DISPOSAL.
  FLUSH SPILL AREA WITH WATER.

DISPOSAL PROCEDURE
  DISPOSE IN ACCORDANCE WITH ALL APPLICABLE FEDERAL, STATE, AND LOCAL
  ENVIRONMENTAL REGULATIONS.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   8 - PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

VENTILATION:             USE ADEQUATE GENERAL OR LOCAL EXHAUST VENTILATION
                         TO KEEP VAPOR AND MIST LEVELS AS LOW AS POSSIBLE.

RESPIRATORY PROTECTION:  NONE REQUIRED WHERE ADEQUATE VENTILATION
                         CONDITIONS EXIST.  IF AIRBORNE CONCENTRATION IS
                         HIGH, USE AN APPROPRIATE RESPIRATOR OR DUST MASK.

EYE/SKIN PROTECTION:     SAFETY GOGGLES, UNIFORM, APRON, PROPER GLOVES ARE
                         RECOMMENDED.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
   9 - STORAGE AND HANDLING PRECAUTIONS
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

SAF-T-DATA(TM) STORAGE COLOR CODE:     ORANGE (GENERAL STORAGE)

SPECIAL PRECAUTIONS
  KEEP CONTAINER TIGHTLY CLOSED.  SUITABLE FOR ANY GENERAL CHEMICAL STORAGE
  AREA.
  PRODUCT MAY SOLIDIFY AT ROOM TEMPERATURE.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
  10 - TRANSPORTATION DATA AND ADDITIONAL INFORMATION
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

DOMESTIC (D.O.T.)

PROPER SHIPPING NAME     CHEMICALS, N.O.S. (NON-REGULATED)

INTERNATIONAL (I.M.O.)

PROPER SHIPPING NAME     CHEMICALS, N.O.S. (NON-REGULATED)



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
MSDS for   OLEIC ACID                                     Page  4
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--






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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:09:16 1998
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X-Path: vgernet.net!alewis
From: "Albert Lewis" <alewis@vgernet.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <alewis@vgernet.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:15:12 +0000
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> You're absolutely correct, Len.
> I don't remember a thread on
> flipping a large stained glass
> panel.  I'll do the drawings and
> you write the text, okay? ;-)

And the Guild will publish it in CGG. <g>

Albert

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:25:03 1998
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X-Path: water.waterw.com!artglass
From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:24:33 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801142124.QAA09212@water.waterw.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

HI Dani,
Up for air for a few moments....

We buy whiting in 50lb. bags from
a ceramic supplier in the area CreekTurn
Ceramics.  Its about $10.00 or 20.00 .
The reason I don't remember is because
we usually get our plaster at the same time.
They are a pretty big company
and have a catalog.
If you don't have a ceramic supplier  one near you
I can send you a few numbers.
>
But, where do you buy oleic acid?

No-corrode(SP?) is the flux we use. It is oleic acid..
Some of the stuff lets off some pretty nasty fumes
but we have had the best results with the no-corrode(sp?)


As for our bevel scenerio....had Houston ship us
overnite the right bevel.
Another problem solved.

And for flipping those biggggies.....ah I wish I had a video of some of our
flips,
Its like a ballet. I was trying to think of the largest commission we've
done in one panel.
This will take a bit.....and probably a bit of discussion.  My brain cells
haven't
been fumed out.  And Paul thinks his are all in tack. I am sure we won't
agree on this.

Well back to work.
my best,
pj 

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:29:42 1998
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From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:29:12 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801142129.QAA09449@water.waterw.com>
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>> Remember, you are the 
>> professional and it is your name that will be on the beautiful piece 
>> of work properly done in the window or on the pile of glass shards on 
>> the floor.
Albert wrote,

>Not to mention that it'll be your name on the legal papers when they 
>file a lawsuit  claiming that as a professional you shoulda known 
>better.


Here's hoping her liability insurance is paid up.

This is not really meant to scare you....but just something to think about when
taking on a commission.  

my best,
pj

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:55:29 1998
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From: "Peggy W. Johnsen" <edupjohn@slonet.org>
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Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 13:52:50 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.55250.0>
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Marilyn:  Sounds like you may have misunderstood your clients who want to
hang the panel in a wooden frame but have it bordered in zinc.  This means
you would construct the panel using a zinc border and then fit it into the
wooden frame that would hang in the window.  Then allows them to remove
the panel if they should move and want to take the window with them.  But
maybe I didn't understand your question.  Peggy

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:58:02 1998
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Subject: half circle bevels
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:51:44 EST
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I received a flyer from Delphi in the mail today.  They have their bevels on
sale.  I'm sorry I don't remember who was asking about 1/2 circle bevels last
week but they are listed in 2, 3, and 4 inches.  If whoever wants to e-mail me
privately I would be more than happy to give you the prices on individual or
boxes of 30.  Lu Ann (Whispy Blu@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 13:59:32 1998
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Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:52:29 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-13 13:02:02 EST, you write:

<<  I am using a 
 sal-ammoniac block for cleaning, and using Canfield 60/40 solder.
 Any opinions out there on the purity of this solder? >>

Dawn,
      I have found Canfield's solder to be the best out of the many brands I
have tried. It seems to have less impurities, and runs a much smoother bead
for me. It just seems to me that it has a shinier finish and a better
consistency or "flow". There are many glass workers that will tell you that
"solder is solder" but I really do see a difference, and like Canfields the
best.
                                                                  ~Alison~
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 14:20:32 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: reinforcement
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:18:54 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.121854.0>
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Shopfreaks wrote:
> 
> Here's a blanket question to all of you experienced window makers.   What is
> the largest you would build a panel WITHOUT some kind of reinforcement in it
> or around the perimeter. (Besides the framing itself).  I've never built a
> window, so I'm looking for some guidelines.  Does anyone have the basics they
> would take the time to share, or could recommend a good book on the subject.
> I want to broaden my knowledge base.
> 
> Thankyou,
> Theresa
> ----
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it would depend on what method you used, lead or foil. and how straight
the pieces are. like a 6" x 6" chessboard would be floppy. but a 20" x
20" design that has large background pieces will alot of curves, will be
alot stronger.

---Mike Savad

-- 
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 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 14:25:23 1998
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Subject: reinforcement
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:23:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.122338.0>
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Hi Teresa-

As a rule of thumb, we go no
larger than 14 perimeter feet
without bracing. However, that
is assuming the window is =

installed against exterior glazing.
Other factors must be considered
also, for example, a long and skinny
window would need some kind of
reinforcement in any case.  Also
agree with Len's comment about
planning the bracing during the
intitial design of the window -
slapping reinforcement on after-
the-fact rarely yields very good
aesthetic results.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: reinforcement
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:23:38 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.122338.0>
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Hi Teresa-

As a rule of thumb, we go no
larger than 14 perimeter feet
without bracing. However, that
is assuming the window is =

installed against exterior glazing.
Other factors must be considered
also, for example, a long and skinny
window would need some kind of
reinforcement in any case.  Also
agree with Len's comment about
planning the bracing during the
intitial design of the window -
slapping reinforcement on after-
the-fact rarely yields very good
aesthetic results.

Best regards,

Dani Greer
Greer Gallery & Studios
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 15:06:53 1998
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To: glass@bungi.com
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Subject: Re: Suncatcher Question
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:55:55 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-14 13:47:15 EST, you write:

<< you can run
 the copper wire all the way around the outside edge >>

I have an extremely difficult time "hiding" the wire when I do this.  Either
the iron is too hot  or if I get it cool enough to keep the solder on the side
then its lumpy.  I haven't been happy with any that I have done.  I would
appreciate any imput/suggestions on doing this well.  Thanks in advance!!  Lu
Ann (Whispy Blu@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 16:13:28 1998
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Subject: Re: Suncatcher Question
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:10:31 -0500
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>I have an extremely difficult time "hiding" the wire when I do this.  Either
>the iron is too hot  or if I get it cool enough to keep the solder on the
side
>then its lumpy.  I haven't been happy with any that I have done.  I would
>appreciate any imput/suggestions on doing this well.  Thanks in advance!!  Lu
>Ann (Whispy Blu@aol.com)

There is a product out called Flex-braid made for the bottoms of lamp
shades that works well around the outside of suncatchers.  It is very
flexible to go around curves, but soaks up the solder and makes a very
sturdy reinforcement.  I highly recommend it.  And it is just the right
width, so no lumps and bumps!

Garden of Glass
Joyce Moran

Ohio

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From: ItsAlison <ItsAlison@aol.com>
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Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:07:10 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-13 19:43:15 EST, you write:

<< 've never heard of sal amoniac water. but you would'nt be dipping
 something electrical in it, you would be dipping something hot into it.
 
 the tips are usaully made of copper or steel, but are usaully tinned, so
 it won't really rust.
 
 ---Mike Savad >>

Mike,
   I've never heard of sal amoniac water either, and I'm afraid I deleted a
lot of the flux thread. Maybe someone who uses this could elaborate on how it
is made and how they use it.  Im replying to you, because in reading your
post, I got the idea that it might be a good idea to saturate the sponge you
use to clean the iron in this sal amoniac water, to really keep the iron
clean. What do you think?  now if we could just find out more about
this.........~Alison~
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 16:53:15 1998
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From: Joni Tornwall <glasqult@1st.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:02:39 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.21239.0>
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Dear Dani and everyone, They have oleic acid at Franklin Art Glass in
Columbus,OH.  It comes in 2 oz. 16 oz. and 1 Gallon containers.  I have
asked about it when I was in the store, and at the time, they had it
only in the larger containers.  But I have used it and I agree that it
works very well.  Joni

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 16:53:33 1998
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From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Soldering 101
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:52:18 -0500
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ItsAlison wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 98-01-13 19:43:15 EST, you write:
> 
> << 've never heard of sal amoniac water. but you would'nt be dipping
>  something electrical in it, you would be dipping something hot into it.
> 
>  the tips are usaully made of copper or steel, but are usaully tinned, so
>  it won't really rust.
> 
>  ---Mike Savad >>
> 
> Mike,
>    I've never heard of sal amoniac water either, and I'm afraid I deleted a
> lot of the flux thread. Maybe someone who uses this could elaborate on how it
> is made and how they use it.  Im replying to you, because in reading your
> post, I got the idea that it might be a good idea to saturate the sponge you
> use to clean the iron in this sal amoniac water, to really keep the iron
> clean. What do you think?  now if we could just find out more about
> this.........~Alison~
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
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sal amoniac is basically flux for you soldering iron (or at least that's
how it was explained to me at one point). i only use it when the sponge
does'nt work. and when i bring home a new tip, a little smokey, but it
works.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 17:40:26 1998
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Subject: Re: Nightlights
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:38:07 EST
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In a message dated 98-01-13 19:37:40 EST, herba@inspace.net writes:

<< At times, I run across electrical outlets in a bathroom where the
receptacle
 has been installed horizontally instead of the more normal vertical
 installation. >>

Herb,  Sunshine  Glassworks sells a nifty little night-lite where the prongs
rotate 90 degrees.  You can use it either vertical or horizontal.  You should
be able to find one at your supplier.

Mike

mjhiester@aol.com (Mike Hiester)
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 17:58:41 1998
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From: "lydia" <lydia@voicenet.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 23:37:58 -0500
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I use the same MSIE with outlook for my mail reader and have no problems
either ( unless I get knocked off line in the middle of downloading the
messages .. then I get everything 2x's) you can download it for free at
www.microsoft.com follow the download link it will take a few hours to down
load the whole program and all addons but it's well worth the time.

Lydia

-----Original Message-----
From: Herb Adler <herba@inspace.net>
To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
Date: Tuesday, January 13, 1998 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!


>I have not had any crash problems using MSIE4 with MS Outlook Express as
the
>e-mail product. I am able to filter messages from any source into
individual
>folders. All my bungi mail goes into a "stained glass" folder, and they are
>all sorted by "thread" and thus all together for ease of reading. I also
>know that my ISP catches spams B4 they get to me so I get none of that.
BTW,
>for those of you experiencing these problems if you haven't already, please
>check with your ISP.
>My sympathy to all of you having this problem
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Don McDonald <don@ccti.net>
>To: glass@bungi.com <glass@bungi.com>
>Date: Sunday, January 11, 1998 10:51 AM
>Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
>
>
>--
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>>
>
>----
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>

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 18:19:58 1998
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From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 20:59:04 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.15594.0>
References: <<1998Jan10.19435.0@?>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

As for why the tallow would work, I have never tried it and wonder how
well it would work on foil that is slightly discolored. In other words
does it really have any cleaning properties?  But then again, weren't the
old time soaps made from rendered fat?

As far as the ability to keep the solder from oxidizing while you work, I
should think it would do a fine job at keeping the air off the molten
metal.
--------------------------------------------->
A question came up about the sal-ammoniac water.  

Back in 1973 when I got my first real job working in stained glass I
worked for an old timer who had bags of sal-ammoniac powder.  He would
mix a couple of tablespoons of the powder in a cup of water and make
sal-ammoniac water.  (Today I just chisel the corner off my block ant
toss it into water.)
To tell the truth the larger the iron you are using the more of an asset
the sal-ammoniac water is.  If your iron gets a lot of gumbo on it, a
sharp jab into the water, (tip only) will break all of the crud off and
it sinks to the bottom of the cup.  Sometimes a sizzling ball of crud is
still hanging on the tip, but you can shake it right off.  If done
correctly the tip will be clean and shiny and still hot enough to resume
work.  If jabbed too slowly, nothing will break off, and you will cool
off your tip to the point that you have to wait for it to heat up again.
As for using it in a sponge, I tried that many years ago and it didn't
work.  The technique depends on the sudden thermal shock to work.

Gary Dodge                Dodge Studio Designs
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:14:17 +0000 Steve Richard
<s.richard@verrier-scotland.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In message <1998Jan10.19435.0@?>, dodgestudio@juno.com writes
>>Dani,
>>
>>If you don't mind a bit of speculation here I'll tell you what I 
>THINK I
>>MAY know.... or something like that.
>>
>Very interesting set of speculations.  They may be right.  But, why 
>does
>tallow (animal fat) work just as well (and with many fewer risks than
>the paste fluxes - unless you can get BSE from tallow!!)
>
>Just wondering
>Steve
>-- 
>Steve Richard
>----
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>
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 19:52:41 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Another how to make glass site.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 19:50:39 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.115039.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Now I am not good at email addresses so bear with me.
Kokomo has an illustrated plant tour on how glass is made.  @
www.kog.com/plant_tour_four.html
Hope you like it.
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 20:10:08 1998
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To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:09:43 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.15943.0>
References: <<1998Jan11.03848.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Bunglas wrote:
> 
>  Don, go back and check your mail again. There have been far more than
>  ". . . 4  or  5 posts......."!  And,  I suspect that if everyone who
>  has had the  problem were to write in we would find more than we could
>  imagine!
> 
>  Which is what we are all TRYING to do, "contribute to the list".  It
>  is unfortunate that we are being prevented from doing this by ONE
>  persons mail program. Is it really fair to ask a dozen people to
>  change mail programs when only ONE persons messages are causing this
>  trouble?
> 
>  I find it offensive that a couple of you  (who take this crashing so
>  non-challantly)  are  critical of those of us who have had to spend
>  hours (in some cases entire days!) with a crashed system!
> 
>  We, for the most part, are not computer wizards.  Crashes are a BIG
>  problem for us!  Please understand, it is not fun to have your system
>  down for a day, or even a half day, and have to spend hours working on
>  resolving the problem.
> 
> I have now set up a mail account with YahooMail (FREE) just for my
> Bungi mail. I do not choose to change my mail program because of one
> person (I like what I have!), I want to continue the Bungi
> relationship, and I do NOT want to spend another day untangling these
> problems. If anyone out there has a better solution, please share it
> with the group.  We appear to need help!
> Bonnie
> _________________________________________________________

I'm very sorry to say that I feel like the above dialog is EXACTLY the
type which may be far more harmful than conducive to the usual pervasive
atmosphere of COOPERATION which is THE REASON that the bungi list exists
in my mailbox at all.  I believe that it is also this type of sniping
and griping which turns off many of our more knowlegeable professionals
from reaching out to us on this list and to whom we are but complete
strangers except for what they interpret of our character, morality,
generousity, etc., from our communication with each other via this list.

(Seems like deja-vu to some of you out there, eh...)

Please, PLEASE couch your requests and problems to each other in a KIND,
COOPERATIVE, and LESS harsh-sounding tone of communication, okay?  Each
and EVERY of us is potentially a contributor to the whole bungi
experience and our interaction with each other is an intrinsically (sp?)
valuable part of that experience.  By all means, please continue to
probe a solution to these and other problems, but not at the expense of
one another's feelings. It's not worth the public humiliation to be on
the receiving end, and invariably it DOES get turned back on one sooner
or later.

[Sound of feet plopping down off of BIG soap box and walking back into
the real world.  Sound of someone arming themselves with fire
extinguisher is then heard, as this person returns to silent
contemplation of just which piece of glass is the exact RIGHT shade for
that particular side of the tree trunk pattern...]

Ciao for now!
V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 20:28:58 1998
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X-Path: sgi.net!mindwarp
From: mindwarp <mindwarp@sgi.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:08:58 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.18858.0>
References: <<199801141417.IAA26366@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been
wondering how I'm going to flip it...

I would love to hear your suggestions.



len alcamo wrote:

Just the do's and dont's of flipping a 3x4 panel is worthy of a decent
thread  :-)

Good Luck!

Len
> -->
> >A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  They
> >don't
> >want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.  They plan
> to
> >hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the
> panel.>
> >Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it,
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 20:35:15 1998
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From: "Maria Haley" <rickym@somtel.com>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Subject: Fw: change of email address 
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:51:12 -0500
Message-ID: <199801150437.XAA17679@quint.somtel.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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----------
> From: Maria Haley <rickym@somtel.com>
> To: glass@bungi.com
> Subject: change of email address 
> Date: Wednesday, January 14, 1998 1:09 PM
> 
> Hi Everybody,
> I am usually just a lurker but I too was having email troubles.It started
a
> while ago, long before the most recent crashes. I decided to try another
> email address with Yahoo. My server was always quick to help but I
> continually would lose messages because one would lock up my inbox. My
new
> email address is rickym88@yahoo.com. I hope this works. I am not totally
> computer illiterate but I am not sure it was all set up correctly. Please
> send all messages from the list to the above email address. I look
forward
> to reading all messages from this list every morning with my coffee. You
> are all a huge part of my day. Thanks for all the help!!!   :-)
> 
>                            Maria   (Still unthawing in the icy state of
> Maine.)
> 	
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 22:14:18 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!ncscoutr
From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:14:27 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.171427.0>
References: <<199801140257.CAA11837@pluto.nildram.co.uk>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Dear Elisabeth, Shirley & Dani,

whaddya think 'bout trying a citronella candle?  It has a sort of
lemony-thing going for it as well as the properties of a candle...and a
smoky one at that!

Who know this may very change our whole view of flux and fusion forever!
:-)

V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island NC USA

Toby wrote:
> 
> Oh Well , Shirley!!!!
> a 100 out of 100 for Enterprise!!!
> Improvise!! I shout at my students, IMPROVISE!
> You appear to have taken it to a real Fine Art!
> Can't WAIT to try your experiments for myself!!!
> Sounds like good fun!
> Try the common or garden household candle as well (as I will) and let
> us compare results!!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
> 
> Hey Dani,
> 
> This sounded like such fun, I did a little experimenting
> with common households "acids".  The following are my
> personal results using a Weller l00 iron with 800 tip.
> These figures are based using Glastar Gel Flux being rated
> at 10:
> 
> 100% Lye w/enough water to make paste  0
> Household ammonia                      0
> Vinegar (5% acidity)                   4
> Olive oil                              4
> Lemon Juice (reconstituted)            8
> 50/50% Lemon Juice/Olive Oil           6
> Patchouli oil                          2 (but it smelled
> great!)
> 
> All these tests were done with clean flux brushes on copper
> foil (7/32" black-back) and Canfield 50/50 solder.
> 
> Feeling like Bill Nye, The Science Guy or Mr. Wizard,
> Shirley
> Grapeland, Tx.
> 
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 22:21:15 1998
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From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Another how to make glass site.
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:16:32 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.61632.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

In a message dated 98-01-14 22:56:16 EST, you write:

<< Kokomo has an illustrated plant tour on how glass is made.  @
 www.kog.com/plant_tour_four.html >>

I wasn't able to connect with the above URL but I was with:
http://www.kog.com/

>From their home page they give you links to the tour of the plant, glass
gallery, and the workshop.      Lu Ann (Whispy Blu@aol.com)
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 22:58:57 1998
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From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:58:37 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.175837.0>
References: <<1998Jan14.94855.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Michael J. Greer wrote:
> 
> Hi Len-
> 
> But, where do you buy oleic acid?
> I've tried everywhere including =
> 
> the oldest pharmacy in town (where
> I acquire some of the weirdest
> substances imaginable for art
> projects!  They usually have to dig
> in the basement where they stored
> something 30 years ago.)  Let us
> know - and while we're on the
> subject of finding things - I'm
> still trying to find a source for
> groomers chalk (whiting) in large
> bags, powder form not in block
> form.  Any clues?  Thanks!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Dani Greer
> Greer Gallery & Studios
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

Dear Dani,

You can purchase Canfield's "Soleic Flux", which is an oleic acid flux
wholesale only from The Glass Emporium, in North Wales, PA.

The largest amounts of whiting I have found are the 2 lb. (which seems
small to me for your purposes,) bag available from Whittemore Durgin via
wholesale OR retail; or, in a 5 lb. box (wholesale only) through Ed
Hoy's.

I hope this helps you out some...
Ciao for now!

V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island NC USA
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 23:01:50 1998
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From: NCScouter <ncscoutr@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: oleic acid & big bags of whiting...
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 02:01:55 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.18155.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd., Roanoke Island, NC, USA
Precedence: bulk

Dear Dani,

sorry to post yet one more message about the same subject, but I found
that Glass Emporium in North Wales also sells whiting by the 25 lb. bag!

Hope THIS helps...

V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island NC USA
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 23:22:26 1998
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X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: oleic acid
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:15:51 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.151551.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	len alcamo [SMTP:alcamoz@mwt.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 14, 1998 12:43 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	oleic acid

Dani,

I got a mayo jar full of it about a hundred years ago woudn't have any idea
where to look now. It came from a drug store originally.  When we dicussed
it a while back someone posted that there was an available flux that was all
or part oelic.... don't remember the details. Hopefully we will have a
searchable archive someday to help us.

did find the MSDS which I included.... the stuff is non-toxic.... just a
common organic fatty acid.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
MSDS for   OLEIC ACID                                     Page  1

[Glenn Spicer]  Is there a URL where one can get these MSDS write ups on chemicals? 
 

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M``0````X+C ``P`F@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````84````````+`"^ 
M"" &``````# ````````1@`````.A0````````,`,( (( 8``````, `````
M``!&`````!&%`````````P`R@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````&(4`````
M```>`$& "" &``````# ````````1@`````VA0```0````$`````````'@!"
M@ @@!@``````P ```````$8`````-X4```$````!`````````!X`0X (( 8`
M`````, ```````!&`````#B%```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````4```!2
113H@``````,`#33]-P``\LV%
`
end

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 23:22:34 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:21:41 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE:be kind
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:09:17 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.15917.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	NCScouter [SMTP:ncscoutr@aol.com]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 14, 1998 11:10 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: Fwd: Re: Crash Cleared Again!

 Please, PLEASE couch your requests and problems to each other in a KIND,
COOPERATIVE, and LESS harsh-sounding tone of communication, okay?  
V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.

[Glenn Spicer]  
Second the motion!, (or was this a second of my motion?)
----

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+``,`#33]-P``47D`
`
end

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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 23:41:19 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:40:30 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: intrastar.net!ssuter
From: Shirley Suter <ssuter@intrastar.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re:  Dani's Whiting Quest (was Why Flux?)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:40:30 -0600
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.194030.0>
References: <<1998Jan14.94855.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Intrastellar Internet Service  & Suter's Stained Glass
Precedence: bulk

Hi Ho Dani!

Was just cruising through Houston's catalog and found they
sell whiting in 50 lb. bags.  You might also inquire about
larger quantities ... they've always been cool about my
wacked-out requests.  Their number is 1-800-231-0148.

Up to my ears in Sales Tax Time,
Shirley
Grapeland, Tx.
  

Dani Greer wrote:

>  I'm
> still trying to find a source for
> groomers chalk (whiting) in large
> bags, powder form not in block
> form.  Any clues?  Thanks!
----
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From owner-glass Wed Jan 14 23:57:56 1998
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	for rglass-42; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:57:06 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: seaside.net!gspicer
From: "Glenn Spicer" <gspicer@seaside.net>
To: "'glass@bungi.com'" <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: RE: large panel construction?
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:51:19 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.155119.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk



Glenn Spicer, The Studio Metamorphoses, BC, Canada

-----Original Message-----
From:	mindwarp [SMTP:mindwarp@sgi.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, January 14, 1998 8:09 PM
To:	glass@bungi.com
Subject:	Re: large panel construction?

I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been wondering 
how I'm going to flip it...
I would love to hear your suggestions.

[Glenn Spicer]  there are numerous ways to flip. Many can be flipped by 
sliding the wind halfway out over the table edge, tilted, reversed while in 
the vertical, put to the table edge at the halfway point, tilted back to 
horizontal, then slide back onto the table. Larger and/or more fragile 
works can be slide onto or made on an appropriately sized piece of plywood, 
the plywood is then tilted with the window (giving the window full 
support), when the window is vertical the ply is placed on the opposite 
side and the window lowered on the ply to the horizontal position. This 
method prevents the breaking of even long thin pieces in a window of 
maximum size.  

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J`0````$`````````'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``(@!
`
end

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 01:20:18 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:19:48 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: ? Temp mellts solder
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 01:19:04 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan14.17194.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

I am toying with the idea of building a stained glass display stand to
support a small free standing design.
I once put a beveled glass cube in a 200 degree oven to evaporate the
moisture that was in it.  It melted the solder.  I figured it was
because the heat was intensified by the sand and glass.
If light bulbs can bake cakes in kids ovens, then can it get hot enough
to melt the solder.  And if so what precautions do you take?  ie, vents 
and distance between solder and light bulb?
Thanks in advance.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 05:22:32 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 05:21:33 -0800 (PST)
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X-Path: juno.com!debbiesgarden
From: debbiesgarden@juno.com (D k Tenhoff)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 08:21:03 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.13213.0>
References: <<199801141417.IAA26366@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been
wondering how I'm going to flip it...

I would love to hear your suggestions.


I build my panels on ceiling tiles, homoseote (spelling?) or plywood.
Whatever I build it on I buy two of. One tile is under the panel already
and when I'm ready to flip I put the second one on top of the panel like
a huge sandwich and very carefully flip. By this time I don't need the
panel with the cartoon on it anymore. Larger panels may need more than
one person to help with flipping.
Debbie T
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 05:34:42 1998
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X-Path: mwt.net!alcamoz
From: "len alcamo" <alcamoz@mwt.net>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Subject: MSDS site
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 07:44:48 -0600
Message-ID: <199801151331.HAA08771@westbyserver.westby.mwt.net>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk


[Glenn Spicer]  Is there a URL where one can get these MSDS write ups on
chemicals?


 Glenn, this is the site that I have in my favorites (bookmarks for the
Netscape people). There are several gopher (good old gopher) driven
university MSDS archives

gopher://gopher.mq.edu.au/77/UsefulInfo/MSDS/.index/msds

Len




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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 07:01:26 1998
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X-Path: nac.net!morn
From: "M. Savad" <morn@nac.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 09:59:07 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.4597.0>
References: <<1998Jan14.18858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

mindwarp wrote:
> 
> I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been
> wondering how I'm going to flip it...
> 
> I would love to hear your suggestions.
> 
> len alcamo wrote:
> 
> Just the do's and dont's of flipping a 3x4 panel is worthy of a decent
> thread  :-)
> 
> Good Luck!
> 
> Len
> > -->
> > >A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.  They
> > >don't
> > >want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.  They plan
> > to
> > >hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the
> > panel.>
> > >Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it,
> ----
> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass


when i did mine i carefully picked it up and flipped it. i should have
built on a sheet of plywood with a ledge on one side. after soldering
another board would be placed on the panel (like a cookie). then you and
a friend would hold the boards together and flip the whole thing. this
eliminates the chance of snaping it in 2.

---Mike Savad

-- 
Mike's Stained Glass
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
 New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 08:44:52 1998
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X-Path: gnt.net!lynb
From: Lyn Butler <lynb@gnt.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Subject: Thanks
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:43:37 +0000
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.104337.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
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Just wanted to thank all of you who responded to my problem with "ugly
patina".  It's been very helpful and I've been successful with my latest
project thanks to all advice.

Now my problem is getting over being so picky and exact with my
fittings. I used to be a quilter for quite a while and worked hard at
making my points and corners perfect. Needless to say I get frustrated
trying to fit the glass pieces perfectly. My daughter, (24) who has had
no instruction, watched me work during one of her visits and fell in
love with the art. She called one day while on one of her business trips
and asked if I'd get all the basic tools for her to get started. Upon
her return home, she did a suncatcher and then followed it with a
16"x20" dolphin in water piece that turned out great! She did get some
help from her local glass shop with the outside edge finishing. She
keeps telling me to "just go for it, Mom". And I keep trying. Anyway,
she'll be hooking up with the bungi group soon, I've raved about how
helpful it's been to me. She's not one to let grass grow under her feet.

Just thought I'd pass that little story on. Thanks for listening.

Lyn

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 16:00:00 1998
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X-Path: flash.net!artglass
From: "Dianne G. Maddison" <artglass@flash.net>
To: bungi <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Reinforcement
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:56:53 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.85653.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: The Ivory Express
Precedence: bulk

When I design and build a large window (3'x3' or 4'x4') I plan for the
reinforcement to be part of the design.  I use re-strip in between my
foiled pieces at strategic points (usually every couple of sq. ft.).  I
find that the re-strip works great and adds alot of strength without
being seen.  
Thanks for the tip on foiling nuggets.  It sounds great!
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 16:14:15 1998
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From: artglass@water.waterw.com (pj friend)
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Receiving mail,Welcome MiChea'l, Great Site,Question for Mike S. Thank you Rand's and Albert
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:13:16 -0500 (EST)
Message-ID: <199801160013.TAA19044@water.waterw.com>
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>Shirley Balloch wrote:
>> 
>> OK folks here is some more info for you computer literates. I barley
>> know my way around the keyboard.
>> I could not get mail through my local server.  I could get on the web
>> and I could send mail.  I took the hard drive to the server and they
>> deinstalled and reinstalled and they couldn't get their program to work
>> either.  My computer came with netscape.  They showed me how to use it.
>> I have a lot of book marks on my servers program that I can't figure out
>> how to transport to netscape.  So I use my server to surf the net and
>> netscape to get my mail.  I log on with my server and then I log onto
>> netscape.
>> I have always gotten MiChea'l posts, but I have never been advised there
>> were attachments with it.  Maybe that is because this system seems to
>> have so many security programs.
>> When I was just using the server Mike's post(when was that last summer)
>> blocked my system and I lost all my mail, cause it had to be deleted at
>> the servers, and we had to deinstall and reinstall.
>> Does that help anyone?
>> I am glad you decided to stay with the group MiChea'l and welcome back.
>> This site is more helpful than words  or hugs could ever tell.  I always
>> tell my children (and anyone else who will listen) that education is the
>> best thing you can spend your money on, cause it will come back ten fold
>> over the rest of your life.  And here we are, generously getting it for
>> free!!!!!!!!!
>> I did 40 craft shows last year. I shared this site with other glass
>> vendors and customers alike.  I hope to do 12 this year and I'm debating
>> about printing out Mikes web page info and leaving it as a free hand
>> out.  Would that be OK Mike?
>> I just can't say Thank you enough. The biggest Thank you is to Albert
>> for telling me about this list and of course the Rand's for operating
>> it.  I can't imagine how they do the computer part let alone the
>> babysitting. And they want more.!! Well I am clinking the champagne
>> glass and here's a toast to you and my hat is off to you too.
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>i guess that's ok, (providing you were talking about me... :) ). there's
>alot of pages to print though. maybe if you can keep an address location
>on it, that would be nice... would it be in color?
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 16:49:06 1998
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X-Path: netcom.ca!mfig
From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: solder alloys and why
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:47:22 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.144722.0>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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    Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have enjoyed some of the =
info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering and lead give =
little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we do. So =
for some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and =
hey, even maybe more useful) information I throw myselves to the wolves =
with this piece I wrote a few years ago.=20

DID YOU KNOW...

... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density at =
300k is 11.4. Tin=92s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is =
... oh, never mind, that=92s too much information. Solder is an alloy of =
tin and lead, and the proportion of the two affects the melting point. =
The most suitable for almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, =
40% lead... Helpful Jim)(a titanic intellect in a world full of =
icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, lead at 621F. But something weird =
happens when you combine the two- the melting point drops down as low as =
361F depending on the mix of the two. Check this out:

%TIN % LEAD MELTING POINT

0         100             621F

30         70             496F

50         50             421F

60         40             375F

63         37             361F

If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the melting =
point begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore =
63/37 solder has the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought that =
ratio was a gimmick, eh? With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike=92s =
metals commodities broker) checked, tin was about ten times more =
expensive than lead, telling you why there=92s a big difference in =
solder prices.

-
Fantasy In Glass, 703 The Queensway, Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 =
(Tel:416-252-6868)
Canada's first and still its only officially sanctioned stained glass =
supplier.


------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2016.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><B><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS">
<P align=3Dcenter>&nbsp;</P></B>
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have =
enjoyed=20
some of the info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering and =
lead=20
give little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we =
do. So for=20
some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and hey, =
even maybe=20
more useful) information I throw myselves to the wolves with this piece =
I wrote=20
a few years ago. <B>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Dcenter>DID YOU KNOW...</P></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS" size=3D3>
<P>... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density at =
300k is=20
11.4. Tin&rsquo;s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is ... =
oh, never=20
mind, that&rsquo;s too much information. Solder is an alloy of tin and =
lead, and=20
the proportion of the two affects the melting point. The most suitable =
for=20
almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, 40% lead... Helpful =
Jim)(a=20
titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, =
lead at=20
621F. But something weird happens when you combine the two- the melting =
point=20
drops down as low as 361F depending on the mix of the two. Check this=20
out:</P></FONT><B><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D1>
<P>%TIN % LEAD MELTING POINT</P></B>
<P>0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
621F</P>
<P>30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
70&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
496F</P>
<P>50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
421F</P>
<P>60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
375F</P>
<P>63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
37&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
361F</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D3>
<P>If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the =
melting point=20
begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore 63/37 =
solder has=20
the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought that ratio was a =
gimmick, eh?=20
With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike&rsquo;s metals commodities =
broker)=20
checked, tin was about ten times more expensive than lead, telling you =
why=20
there&rsquo;s a big difference in solder prices.</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>-<BR>Fantasy In Glass, 703 The =
Queensway,=20
Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 (Tel:416-252-6868)<BR>Canada's first and still =
its only=20
officially sanctioned stained glass=20
supplier.<BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00--

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 17:28:47 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: erols.com!jkeane
From: Hee Sun Stained Glass <jkeane@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:28:04 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980115202804.006ac000@pop.erols.com>
References: <<1998Jan14.18858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 09:59 AM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>mindwarp wrote:
>> 
>> I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been
>> wondering how I'm going to flip it...
>> 
>> I would love to hear your suggestions.
>> 
>> len alcamo wrote:
>> 
>> Just the do's and dont's of flipping a 3x4 panel is worthy of a decent
>> thread  :-)
>> 
>> Good Luck!
>> 
>> Len
>> > -->
>> > >A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.
They
>> > >don't
>> > >want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.
They plan
>> > to
>> > >hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the
>> > panel.>
>> > >Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it,
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>when i did mine i carefully picked it up and flipped it. i should have
>built on a sheet of plywood with a ledge on one side. after soldering
>another board would be placed on the panel (like a cookie). then you and
>a friend would hold the boards together and flip the whole thing. this
>eliminates the chance of snaping it in 2.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
We tend to use the real cheap luan doors available at the home centers.
These are those hollow core doors that have a light brown finish on
them...we use the 36" wide ones, the standard height is 80".  The doors are
extremely light and realtively inexpensive and very sturdy.  We build all
of our 
large panels on these...one has a border around it to square up the work
then by placing another on top of it we can flip it by sliding the "sandwich "
to the edge of the workbench until the middle of the sandwich is centered
over the edge of the workbench.  Then we move the sandwich to a vertical
position and reverse the above procedure..    We have flipped panels as
large as 34"X74" with no problem.  This setup also doubles great as a
packaging solution for transportation to the job site....with proper
padding of course.   Hope this helps and wasn't  too long winded.   





Robert &  Jeanne Keane
Hee Sun Stained Glass 
"Bestow Pleasure"
P.O. Box 322	
Glyndon, MD 21071
410-833-3007

jkeane@erols.com

----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 18:33:52 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: erols.com!jkeane
From: Hee Sun Stained Glass <jkeane@erols.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: large panel construction?
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 20:28:04 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980115202804.006ac000@pop.erols.com>
References: <<1998Jan14.18858.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

At 09:59 AM 1/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>mindwarp wrote:
>> 
>> I am currently working on my first 3x3 project....and have been
>> wondering how I'm going to flip it...
>> 
>> I would love to hear your suggestions.
>> 
>> len alcamo wrote:
>> 
>> Just the do's and dont's of flipping a 3x4 panel is worthy of a decent
>> thread  :-)
>> 
>> Good Luck!
>> 
>> Len
>> > -->
>> > >A client wants a panel, 34" (tall) x 45" (wide), lead construction.
They
>> > >don't
>> > >want it framed in wood, but prefer to have it bordered in metal.
They plan
>> > to
>> > >hang it, in a window that's only minutely bigger than the size of the
>> > panel.>
>> > >Is this doable?  My inclination is to strongly suggest they NOT hang it,
>> ----
>> For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>> To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>> Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
>when i did mine i carefully picked it up and flipped it. i should have
>built on a sheet of plywood with a ledge on one side. after soldering
>another board would be placed on the panel (like a cookie). then you and
>a friend would hold the boards together and flip the whole thing. this
>eliminates the chance of snaping it in 2.
>
>---Mike Savad
>
>-- 
>Mike's Stained Glass
>http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1141
> New Pages Added: Over 40 new stained glass links, Tips: How To Set Up A
>Shop, and My adventures with the Aliens.
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
>
We tend to use the real cheap luan doors available at the home centers.
These are those hollow core doors that have a light brown finish on
them...we use the 36" wide ones, the standard height is 80".  The doors are
extremely light and realtively inexpensive and very sturdy.  We build all
of our 
large panels on these...one has a border around it to square up the work
then by placing another on top of it we can flip it by sliding the "sandwich "
to the edge of the workbench until the middle of the sandwich is centered
over the edge of the workbench.  Then we move the sandwich to a vertical
position and reverse the above procedure..    We have flipped panels as
large as 34"X74" with no problem.  This setup also doubles great as a
packaging solution for transportation to the job site....with proper
padding of course.   Hope this helps and wasn't  too long winded.   





Robert &  Jeanne Keane
Hee Sun Stained Glass 
"Bestow Pleasure"
P.O. Box 322	
Glyndon, MD 21071
410-833-3007

jkeane@erols.com

----
For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass

From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 18:45:48 1998
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X-Path: netcom.ca!mfig
From: "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca>
To: <glass@bungi.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
Subject: solder alloyus
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:44:12 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.164412.0>
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Precedence: bulk

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BD21FE.B78FB420
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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    Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have enjoyed some of the =
info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering and lead give =
little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we do. So =
for some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and =
hey, even maybe more useful) information I throw myselves to the wolves =
with this piece I wrote a few years ago. =20

DID YOU KNOW...

... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density at =
300k is 11.4. Tin=92s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is =
... oh, never mind, that=92s too much information. Solder is an alloy of =
tin and lead, and the proportion of the two affects the melting point. =
The most suitable for almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, =
40% lead... Helpful Jim)(a titanic intellect in a world full of =
icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, lead at 621F. But something weird =
happens when you combine the two- the melting point drops down as low as =
361F depending on the mix of the two. Check this out:

%TIN       % LEAD           MELTING POINT

0         100             621F

30         70             496F

50         50             421F

60         40             375F

63         37             361F

If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the melting =
point begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore =
63/37 solder has the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought that =
ratio was a gimmick, eh? With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike=92s =
metals commodities broker) checked, tin was about ten times more =
expensive than lead, telling you why there=92s a big difference in =
solder prices.

-
Fantasy In Glass, 703 The Queensway, Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 =
(Tel:416-252-6868)
Canada's first and still its only officially sanctioned stained glass =
supplier.
=20

------=_NextPart_000_0015_01BD21FE.B78FB420
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HTML>
<HEAD>

<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2016.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS">
<P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have =
enjoyed=20
some of the info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering and =
lead=20
give little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we =
do. So for=20
some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and hey, =
even maybe=20
more useful) information I throw myselves to the wolves with this piece =
I wrote=20
a few years ago.&nbsp;<B>&nbsp;</P>
<P align=3Dcenter>DID YOU KNOW...</P></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans =
MS" size=3D3>
<P>... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density at =
300k is=20
11.4. Tin&rsquo;s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is ... =
oh, never=20
mind, that&rsquo;s too much information. Solder is an alloy of tin and =
lead, and=20
the proportion of the two affects the melting point. The most suitable =
for=20
almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, 40% lead... Helpful =
Jim)(a=20
titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, =
lead at=20
621F. But something weird happens when you combine the two- the melting =
point=20
drops down as low as 361F depending on the mix of the two. Check this=20
out:</P></FONT><B><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D1>
<P>%TIN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; %=20
LEAD&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MELTING =

POINT</P></B>
<P><FONT face=3D"" =
size=3D4>0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;=20
621F</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"" =
size=3D4>30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
70&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
496F</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"" =
size=3D4>50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
421F</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"" =
size=3D4>60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
375F</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3D"" =
size=3D4>63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
37&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;=20
361F</FONT></P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D3>
<P>If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the =
melting point=20
begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore 63/37 =
solder has=20
the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought that ratio was a =
gimmick, eh?=20
With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike&rsquo;s metals commodities =
broker)=20
checked, tin was about ten times more expensive than lead, telling you =
why=20
there&rsquo;s a big difference in solder prices.</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>-<BR>Fantasy In Glass, 703 The =
Queensway,=20
Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 (Tel:416-252-6868)<BR>Canada's first and still =
its only=20
officially sanctioned stained glass=20
supplier.<BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 19:29:21 1998
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From: "Donald A. DeVoto" <eldondo@usroute66.net>
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Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BD21FC.36836D60"
Subject: My.lamp
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:26:16 -0600
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Youghegheny,Odysseyand me.....(plus alittle Bullseye)
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 19:32:58 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:32:28 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: mail.nildram.co.uk!glass
From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Why flux?
Summary: Authenticated sender is <glass@mail.nildram.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:29:08 +0000
Message-ID: <199801160332.DAA29076@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Hi, VT,
Citronella candle, heh!
As it happens, I have a big one left from last summer's suppers on 
the patio outdoors. Hoped to use it again NEXT summer , for the same 
purpose (keeping those darned midges away!!).
But what does one not sacrifice to the service of "science"  ;->
Will instantly try and use my citronella candle as flux!!
Watch this space!
If you hear nothing, send out the search-party!!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK


Dear Elisabeth, Shirley & Dani,

whaddya think 'bout trying a citronella candle?  It has a sort of
lemony-thing going for it as well as the properties of a candle...and a
smoky one at that!

Who know this may very change our whole view of flux and fusion forever!
:-)

V T Phelps
Shoreline Glassworks, Ltd.
Roanoke Island NC USA

Toby wrote:
> 
> Oh Well , Shirley!!!!
> a 100 out of 100 for Enterprise!!!
> Improvise!! I shout at my students, IMPROVISE!
> You appear to have taken it to a real Fine Art!
> Can't WAIT to try your experiments for myself!!!
> Sounds like good fun!
> Try the common or garden household candle as well (as I will) and let
> us compare results!!
> Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK
> 
> Hey Dani,
> 
> This sounded like such fun, I did a little experimenting
> with common households "acids".  The following are my
> personal results using a Weller l00 iron with 800 tip.
> These figures are based using Glastar Gel Flux being rated
> at 10:
> 
> 100% Lye w/enough water to make paste  0
> Household ammonia                      0
> Vinegar (5% acidity)                   4
> Olive oil                              4
> Lemon Juice (reconstituted)            8
> 50/50% Lemon Juice/Olive Oil           6
> Patchouli oil                          2 (but it smelled
> great!)
> 
> All these tests were done with clean flux brushes on copper
> foil (7/32" black-back) and Canfield 50/50 solder.
> 
> Feeling like Bill Nye, The Science Guy or Mr. Wizard,
> Shirley
> Grapeland, Tx.
> 
> ----
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> 
> ----
> As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
> North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
> http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm
> ----
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North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 19:33:02 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:32:26 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
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From: "Toby" <toby@northlights.co.uk>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Re: Why flux?
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Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 04:29:08 +0000
Message-ID: <199801160332.DAA29064@pluto.nildram.co.uk>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Dear Tallow Addicts,

Old-time soaps were in deed made from "rendered fat". Even soaps 
nowadays has some "fat" content (though I have no idea what it is 
these days...). I was fortunate enough to experience the Docklands of 
London in the early 60's before they were abandoned and (now) 
fashionably developed. Many of the dock-land factories were soap 
producers, with the raw material arriving by boat/barge up along the 
Thames (real Dickensian stuff!). You walked along those very narrow 
alley ways and could smell several blocks away the perfume used to 
add to the soap production.  My husband was a very keen amateur 
historian of Old London and through his work with the BBC, he gained 
access and entry to all sorts of strange places where the public was 
not normally allowed (In my mid-teens, when I first got to know him, 
I had to "endure" climbing down the sewers of London or up to the 
very top of inside Big Ben and watch how the old Penny adjusted the 
timing of Big Ben and have my ear shattered by the chimes - from 
"within" as it were. We also visited Billingsgate Fish Market at 3 in 
the morning - now long since gone, )
Sorry, but your mention about soap, just made these early memories 
come flooding back.......

Does "tallow" clean? - Hmm, I doubt it. As far as I am aware, the 
tallow used for flux in stained glass is "refined" only as much as 
the tallow, used for  the old fashioned  lighting purpose. The only 
difference being that the taper ( = wick) has been removed. I may be 
wrong, but that is what I have been given to understand from my old 
teachers here.  Anyone who has got newer and more scientific 
knowledge? I would love to know. Funnily enough, I have just accepted 
and perhaps not always asked WHY. Maybe it is because my mother hated 
me as a child because I would never STOP asking WHY  (Yep, I was one 
of THOSE!!)  ;-)
All I know is that old-fashioned tallow is a reliable flux; cheap and 
readily available (here!) So I use it. It works.

In a class situation, where my students have started to work with 
copper-foil,  they often foil one week, solder the next. I.e. the 
foiled work is left exposed for 7 days. When they then start to 
solder it, they find that the copper and the solder just won't "key" 
properly. What I advise them to do is to put their foiled pieces away 
in a sealed plastic bag, so that neither air, not moisture  can get 
to them and start oxidizing the copper. That seems to work quite 
well. Alternatively, I persuade them to foil for half the lesson and 
then to tin the foiled pieces the other half of the lesson, so as to 
cover the copper foil quickly. It's easier to add solder to solder, 
than to add it to copper that has been sitting around for a week.
I also preach to them to keep their copper foil roll sealed tightly 
between usage. That also helps.
As a last resort, I get them to very gently wire-wool the copper foil 
before they start applying flux & solder.
(And please, remember, I am a LEAD-person by preference....).
Everything - in the end - boils down to being patient, meticulous and 
slowing down. "Quick fixes" are expensive and unknown quantities. 
Care, attention, patience, elbow-grease and time can never really be 
replaced.....
2.30 am!
Time for Bed!
Elisabeth 'n Toby in UK

Quote:

As for why the tallow would work, I have never tried it and wonder how
well it would work on foil that is slightly discolored. In other words
does it really have any cleaning properties?  But then again, weren't the
old time soaps made from rendered fat?

As far as the ability to keep the solder from oxidizing while you work, I
should think it would do a fine job at keeping the air off the molten
metal.
--------------------------------------------->
A question came up about the sal-ammoniac water.  

Back in 1973 when I got my first real job working in stained glass I
worked for an old timer who had bags of sal-ammoniac powder.  He would
mix a couple of tablespoons of the powder in a cup of water and make
sal-ammoniac water.  (Today I just chisel the corner off my block ant
toss it into water.)
To tell the truth the larger the iron you are using the more of an asset
the sal-ammoniac water is.  If your iron gets a lot of gumbo on it, a
sharp jab into the water, (tip only) will break all of the crud off and
it sinks to the bottom of the cup.  Sometimes a sizzling ball of crud is
still hanging on the tip, but you can shake it right off.  If done
correctly the tip will be clean and shiny and still hot enough to resume
work.  If jabbed too slowly, nothing will break off, and you will cool
off your tip to the point that you have to wait for it to heat up again.
As for using it in a sponge, I tried that many years ago and it didn't
work.  The technique depends on the sudden thermal shock to work.


>>If you don't mind a bit of speculation here I'll tell you what I 
>THINK I
>>MAY know.... or something like that.
>>
>Very interesting set of speculations.  They may be right.  But, why 
>does
>tallow (animal fat) work just as well (and with many fewer risks than
>the paste fluxes - unless you can get BSE from tallow!!)
>
----
As my grandmother said "...there is only nobility of mind"
North Lights Stained Glass - homepage
http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/kris/northlights/index.htm 
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 21:21:14 1998
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X-Path: televar.com!fishbait
From: Fishbait <fishbait@televar.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Etched Name
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:18:55 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.131855.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

A while back on Bungi someone said it was possible to use a rubber stamp
in etching cream and thus get our name on the glass.  I tried it this
morning without a lot of success.  Possibly my rubber stamp is too
small.  What size of letters do you have on your rubber stamp if you are
still out there lurking?
Bonnie Clark
Washington State

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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 21:32:22 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 21:31:38 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: juno.com!dodgestudio
From: dodgestudio@juno.com
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Re: solder alloys and why
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:18:59 -0500
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.191859.0>
References: <<1998Jan15.144722.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Mike,

Of greater importance than the relative  melting temperatures of the
various grades of solder are the actual properties of those solders when
in the molten and semi-molten (also known as pasty) states.

As you draw closer and closer to what some call the ultimate solder,
63/37, the real difference in terms of workability are
1)   the viscosity of the solder or "how thick or watery" it is.  The
closer to 63/37 you get the thinner the molten solder is.  Many find this
watery solder easier to deal with, but most have better luck with a
thicker solder for filling spaces where solder tends to run through.

2)  The pasty range.  Every solder has a range of temperatures between
which it is neither fully liquid nor fully solid.  This is referred to as
the pasty range.  The closer you get to 63/37, the shorter the pasty
range of the solder.  This means that 63/37 solder freezes hard almost
instantly when it cools even a few degrees below its' threshold
temperature of  361 degrees.
A solder like 50/50 has a much wider range of temperatures between which
it is pasty.  If disturbed at all while in the pasty state, the surface
will lose its' shine and look mat finished, almost like it has been
sandblasted.
Back in the days before Bondo, 10/90 solder was used to repair auto
bodies.  This 10% tin solder had such a wide pasty range that it was
possible to heat it up into its' pasty range and have enough working time
as it cooled to work it back and forth with putty knives and the like
smoothing it onto the side of a fender  of  a car.

Gary Dodge                     Dodge Studio Designs


On Thu, 15 Jan 1998 19:47:22 -0500 "Mike Figgy" <mfig@netcom.ca> writes:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
>
>    Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have enjoyed some of 
>the =
>info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering and lead give 
>=
>little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we do. 
>So =
>for some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and =
>hey, even maybe more useful) information I throw myselves to the 
>wolves =
>with this piece I wrote a few years ago.=20
>
>DID YOU KNOW...
>
>... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density at 
>=
>300k is 11.4. Tin=92s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is 
>=
>... oh, never mind, that=92s too much information. Solder is an alloy 
>of =
>tin and lead, and the proportion of the two affects the melting point. 
>=
>The most suitable for almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, 
>=
>40% lead... Helpful Jim)(a titanic intellect in a world full of =
>icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, lead at 621F. But something weird =
>happens when you combine the two- the melting point drops down as low 
>as =
>361F depending on the mix of the two. Check this out:
>
>%TIN % LEAD MELTING POINT
>
>0         100             621F
>
>30         70             496F
>
>50         50             421F
>
>60         40             375F
>
>63         37             361F
>
>If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the melting 
>=
>point begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore 
>=
>63/37 solder has the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought 
>that =
>ratio was a gimmick, eh? With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike=92s 
>=
>metals commodities broker) checked, tin was about ten times more =
>expensive than lead, telling you why there=92s a big difference in =
>solder prices.
>
>-
>Fantasy In Glass, 703 The Queensway, Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 =
>(Tel:416-252-6868)
>Canada's first and still its only officially sanctioned stained glass 
>=
>supplier.
>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00
>Content-Type: text/html;
>	charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
><HTML>
><HEAD>
>
><META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
>http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
><META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.2016.0"' name=3DGENERATOR>
></HEAD>
><BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
><DIV><B><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Comic Sans MS">
><P align=3Dcenter>&nbsp;</P></B>
><P>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Been lurking off and on for awhile now and have 
>=
>enjoyed=20
>some of the info that's come across. Recent discussions on soldering 
>and =
>lead=20
>give little or no mention of why we use solders in the alloys that we 
>=
>do. So for=20
>some payback, and to try and encourage the exchange of more (and hey, 
>=
>even maybe=20
>more useful) information I throw myselves to the wolves with this 
>piece =
>I wrote=20
>a few years ago. <B>&nbsp;</P>
><P align=3Dcenter>DID YOU KNOW...</P></B></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic 
>Sans =
>MS" size=3D3>
><P>... the atomic weight of lead is 82, its symbol is Pb, its density 
>at =
>300k is=20
>11.4. Tin&rsquo;s symbol is Sn, and its electron configuration is ... 
>=
>oh, never=20
>mind, that&rsquo;s too much information. Solder is an alloy of tin and 
>=
>lead, and=20
>the proportion of the two affects the melting point. The most suitable 
>=
>for=20
>almost all stained glass work is 60/40 (60% tin, 40% lead... Helpful =
>Jim)(a=20
>titanic intellect in a world full of icebergs...Ed) Tin melts at 450F, 
>=
>lead at=20
>621F. But something weird happens when you combine the two- the 
>melting =
>point=20
>drops down as low as 361F depending on the mix of the two. Check 
>this=20
>out:</P></FONT><B><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D1>
><P>%TIN % LEAD MELTING POINT</P></B>
><P>0&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>100&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
>p;=20
>621F</P>
><P>30&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>70&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;=20
>496F</P>
><P>50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>50&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;=20
>421F</P>
><P>60&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>40&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;=20
>375F</P>
><P>63&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
>37&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
>;=20
>361F</P></FONT><FONT face=3D"Comic Sans MS" size=3D3>
><P>If we continue to raise the amount of tin to lead past 63% the =
>melting point=20
>begins to rise again to where it is 450F at 100% tin, therefore 63/37 
>=
>solder has=20
>the absolute lowest melting point. And you thought that ratio was a =
>gimmick, eh?=20
>With repect to cost, last time Stan (Mike&rsquo;s metals commodities =
>broker)=20
>checked, tin was about ten times more expensive than lead, telling you 
>=
>why=20
>there&rsquo;s a big difference in solder prices.</P></FONT></DIV>
><DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2>-<BR>Fantasy In Glass, 703 The =
>Queensway,=20
>Toronto, Canada, M8Y 1L2 (Tel:416-252-6868)<BR>Canada's first and 
>still =
>its only=20
>officially sanctioned stained glass=20
>supplier.<BR></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>
>
>------=_NextPart_000_007F_01BD21EE.657BFF00--
>
>----
>For subscription changes, please mail to: glass-request@bungi.com
>To send to the list,      please mail to: glass@bungi.com
>Archives available at http://www.bungi.com/glass
>
----
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 22:00:43 1998
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	for rglass-42; Thu, 15 Jan 1998 22:00:11 -0800 (PST)
	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: netrox.net!mjtaylor
From: "M.-J. Taylor" <mjtaylor@netrox.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Subject: Re: Crash Cleared Again!
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 00:58:50 -0500
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980116005850.0082a3f0@pop.netrox.net>
References: <<1998Jan13.13367.0>>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

It was written: 
>I have not had any crash problems using MSIE4 with MS Outlook Express as the
>e-mail product. 

I know this is OLD news, but I've been busy for a couple of days and unable
to get to the mail. What a controversy I missed!

It's quite possible that certain versions of MSIE are buggier than others.
That might explain why Herb had no problem where other MSIE users did.

I swear by Eudora (Light (free) or Pro (currently ver3.x is available for
$29 at their web site (www.eudora.com), an excellent deal. Version 4 is
out, but it's quite buggy. (I belong to a mailing list just for Eudora,
BTW) Both have filters, Pro has a spell checker, too. I have also used
Pegasus which is excellent. And I have test run Netscape (very limited
though nice for HTML messages), but I wouldn't recommend it or any other
browser as one's mail reader, for reasons already stated earlier.

Just had to add my two bucks!

Best to all,

M.-J.

             ?tahw woN .evird drah ym pu dekcab ev'I ,thgir llA
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From owner-glass Thu Jan 15 23:47:59 1998
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X-Path: netbridge.net!balloch
From: Shirley Balloch <balloch@netbridge.net>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Subject: Cutting  a round hole in the side of a bottle.
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:46:00 -0800
Message-ID: <1998Jan15.15460.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: Maiden Concepts
Precedence: bulk

Is there some simple way to do this?
I want to make a fountain out of liquir bottles.  My thought is to have
the bottles on their side and have the water flow out of the top of the
bottle and into the side of another bottle below it and so forth.  I
will also need to take the bottom out of one of the bottles. Then I can
hide the recirculating pump inside the base bottle. It will have to be
tight enough to stop water from seeping out and loose enough to take off
to care for the pump.
Is there a way to do these two things. Please if you want to talk with
me off list my address is balloch@netbridge.net and my ICQ # is 3384049
Thanks in advance.
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From owner-glass Fri Jan 16 00:57:58 1998
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	(Smail-3.2.0.94 1997-Apr-22 #8 built 1997-Jun-19)
X-Path: prodigy.com!YWAH36A
From: YWAH36A@prodigy.com ( BOB   DUCHESNEAU)
To: glass@bungi.com
Subject: Internet Message 
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 03:52:38, -0500
Message-ID: <199801160852.DAA20100@mime4.prodigy.com>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Precedence: bulk

Shirley writes:
Is there some simple way to do this?
I want to make a fountain out of liquir bottles.  My thought is to 
have
the bottles on their side and have the water flow out of the top of 
the
bottle and into the side of another bottle below it and so forth.  I
will also need to take the bottom out of one of the bottles. Then I 
can
hide the recirculating pump inside the base bottle. It will have to 
be
tight enough to stop water from seeping out and loose enough to take 
off
to care for the pump.
Is there a way to do these two things. Please if you want to talk 
with
me off list my address is balloch@netbridge.net and my ICQ # is 
3384049
Thanks in advance.

Well this is an interesting little problem. First it will be 
necessary to learn how to cut the bottom off a bottle. I like to 
place the bottle on its side against something like the back of a 
kitchen counter and rotate the bottle while marking a line with a 
marker where it is desired to cut on the side of the bottle. Now 
rotate the bottle while scoring with a wheeled cutter. Turn the 
bottle upright and add very hot water to the bottle to just cover the 
score and plunge into cold water. With a bit of luck the bottom will 
neatly fall off. The hard part here is getting a good clean score. 
The two pieces can be siliconed together and a 1/4" diamond bit will 
make a neat hole for the water exit line.

I think you want a hole in the side of the bottle about one by three 
inches. This can be accomplished by drilling a hole in the side with 
a 1/4" diamond bit and by rotating  the same bit around the hole to 
enlarge it to 3/4" if that is the size of the largest bit on your 
grinder. Now use the 3/4" bit to enlarge the hole to its final size.

Silicone labeled for aquarium use should prove satisfactory. Consider 
using a large bottle at the bottom. This will increase your water 
resovor to avoid running the pump dry and perhaps let you use a small 
fountain pump (about $50.00 at Home Depot, etc.).
Bob 

____
Bob Duchesneau ( Little girl, "Is your cat pregnant?". Bob, " No, he 
is not!")  Mountain Meadow Stained Glass, 26746 Mountain Meadow Road, 
Escondido, CA, 92026,USA
Voice (760) 749-3966    FAX (760) 749-6427
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From owner-glass Fri Jan 16 03:03:25 1998
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X-Path: aol.com!WhispyBlu
From: Whispy Blu <WhispyBlu@aol.com>
To: glass@bungi.com
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Subject: Tshiro
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 05:57:45 EST
Message-ID: <1998Jan16.105745.0>
Reply-To: glass@bungi.com
Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com)
Precedence: bulk

Glenna - according to the Tshiro link from archives that site could not be
located and said to inform the "site administrator".  Are you the site
administrator?  I've used this link before but it's been a few months.  Also
according to my local glass shop Vicki Payne is closing her out retail